United States
Environmental Protection
Agency
Energy, Minerals and Industry
                                 Office of
                                 Research and Development
                                 Washington D.C. 20460
EPA-600/9-78-041
December 1978
v/EPA
The Section 11  Hearings

          V V
        ioo'
The Public Reviews the Federal Nonnuclear
Energy Research & Development Program

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Foreword
Section 11 of P.L. 93-577, the Nonnuclear Energy
Research and Development Act of 1974, mandates
an ongoing review of the Federal Nonnuclear
Energy Research and Development Program to
evaluate the adequacy of attention given to:
 • Energy conservation methods
 • Environmental protection and the environmental
   consequences of energy technologies.
  President Carter's reorganization transferred
responsibility for this review from the Council on
Environmental Quality  to the Environmental
Protection Agency.  The Office of Energy, Minerals
and Industry (OEMI) within EPA's Office of
Research and Development has been assigned the
job of conducting the review.  One  part of EPA's
responsibilities under Section 11 is to hold yearly
public hearings on the  Federal Nonnuclear Energy
Research and Development Program.
  This report summarizes the major topics
discussed at the public hearing held March 29-31,
1978 in Washington, DC. The information
presented at these hearings is a valuable
mechanism for surfacing important problems and
issues in federal nonnuclear energy research and
development.  EPA plans to improve the under-
standing of these problems and issues, to confirm
their significance, and to further explore their
dimensions.
  We would greatly appreciate your comments on
the issues presented in this report — or on other
issues concerning adequacy of attention given to
energy conservation  and environmental protection
in the nonnuclear research and development
program. Please send your comments to:
  Francine Sakin Jacoff
  Office of Energy, Minerals and Industry (RD-681)
  U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
  Washington, DC 20460
                                              .3
                                                      M
Steven R. Reznek
Acting Deputy Assistant Administrator
for Energy, Minerals and Industry
Editor:  Francine Sakin Jacoff
Text:  Keith Bentz, Jan Runyan
Illustrations:  Jim Chaffee
Graphic Support: Terrie Gibbons, Bill  Lebut
Technical Advisor:  Dr. Carl B. Moyer

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vvEPA
The Section 11 Hearings
                 U.S. Envirormental Protection Agency
                 Begion 5, Library (5PL-1S)
                 230 S. Dearborn Street, Room 1670
                 Chicago, IL  60604
               The Public Reviews the Federal Nonnuclear
               Energy Research & Development Program

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                                                     The Closing  of the
                                                     Petroleum  Age
"An era of the world's history is rapidly coming to a
 close. .   although we have all witnessed some of
 the near term economic, political and environmental
 complications of the closing of the petroleum age,
 none of us can accurately forecast what the future
 has in store  The energy crisis may mean a
 protracted and gradually worsening economic
 recession, lack of opportunity for our young
 people, and decreasing social mobility  It may
 mean rapidly degrading  environmental quality and
 exhausting our supplies  of clean an, clean water,
 and productive land. On the other hand, the
 energy crisis may only mean that the cost of
 energy will rise to the point where widely available
 and environmentally benign sources will be used to
 meet society's economic and social needs."
 —Dr Stephen J  Gage
  Environmental Protection Agency
"A number of studies of world supplies of petroleum
 and demands for same have been completed
 recently.  In the conclusions, all agree that the
 demand for petroleum will probably overtake
 supply sometime between 1985 and 1995."
 —Dr.  William Jones
   Massachusetts Institute of Technology
"Estimates of remaining recoverable conventional
 gas resources in the United States are in the range
 of 700 to 1200 trillion cubic feet or approximately
 700 to 1200 quads of remaining gas that could be
 produced.  Thus, at the current U S. consumption
 rate of about 20 Tcf per year of natural gas, there
 are between 35 and 60 years of conventional U.S.
 gas supplies remaining to be produced."
 —Dr  Ben/amin Schlesmger
  American Gas Association
 Since the early 1900's, America has depended on
 oil and natural gas to meet our energy needs  But
 today, with worldwide supplies of petroleum
 dwindling and costs escalating rapidly, experts
 predict that domestic natural gas will last 35 to
 60 years at our current rate of consumption.
 Although supplies of oil are not as critically limited,
 we are already forced to import over 40 percent of
 our oil every year —  making energy one of our
 country's most vulnerable  resources. The facts are
 inescapable:  we must begin to make crucial
 and very fundamental decisions about the manage-
 ment of our present energy resources and the
 future development of new energy sources.
   But deciding which sources of energy to develop
 is a more complex and difficult choice today than
 ever before.  We are  finally beginning to under-
 stand  that a balance  between energy development
 and environmental  protection is critical to our
 nation's future. We now know that the choices we
 make about energy will have far-reaching effects on
 the overall health and welfare of our society.  The
 solution to our country's energy and environmental
 problems is not at all clear. Still, we must
 choose — no  matter how difficult the choices.
   Congress had already begun to realize the
 urgency of the energy challenge when  it passed the
 Federal Nonnuclear Energy Research and Develop-
 ment Act of 1974.  This legislation authorized the
 Energy Research and Development Administra-
 tion — now the Department of Energy — to spend
 nearly $2 billion per year on research, development,
 and demonstration of nonnuclear energy
 technologies.
  One important goal of this program is to provide
both government and industry with accurate,
detailed information on promising new energy
sources. Without this kind of information, wise
decisions about our energy future will be

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"Annual public hearings shall be held on the
 conduct of energy research and development and
 the probable environmental consequences of
 trends in the development and application of
 energy technologies. The transcript of the
 hearings shall be published and made available
 to the public."
 —Section 11, Federal Nonnuclear Energy
   Research and Development Act of 1974
"The federal government today seems to be
 addressing both energy and the environment on
 the kind of either-or basis that promotes conflicts,
 instead of solutions  . .We have institutionalized
 our differences by setting up separate jurisdictions
 to handle what in the real world are interrelated
 problems."
 —Mr Jackson Browning
   Union Carbide Corporation
"l believe a decision strategy in which environ-
 mental issues play an equal role with technology
 feasibility and economic costs would be most
 useful. . . I also believe there is an increased need
 for interagency cooperation and coordination."
 —Dr Chester P. Richmond
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory
". . .there needs to be a greater broad public
 involvement in the initial process of RD&D
 decisionmaking and a greater communication to
 the various publics after the protects are com-
 pleted — and I should^ indicate, in a form which
 they can understand."
 —Dr. Roger Caldwell
  University of Arizona
 impossible.
  Another vital goal of the nonnuclear energy
 program is to give the public a meaningful voice in
 deciding how our nation's future energy needs will
 be met.  For it is the public who will ultimately
 enjoy the benefits of wise energy choices  — or be
 forced to pay the price for unwise decisions.
  At the 1978 Section 11 Hearings, some 45
 witnesses from a wide range of industries,
 universities, environmental groups,  and state and
 federal governments presented their views to panel
 members from EPA, CEO, and a number of state
 and local agencies.  Although the specific  purpose
 of the hearings is to gather public testimony on
 energy conservation and  environmental protection,
 many witnesses went beyond these topics to
 discuss fundamental questions on the whole
 process of energy research  and development.
  One of these issues was the need for much
 greater cooperation between the Department of
 Energy and environmental agencies at the federal,
 state, and  local levels. Another was the importance
 of greatly increased  public involvement at  every
 stage of  the energy/environmental  decisionmaking
 process — from planning through commercializa-
 tion.  Of special concern among a great many
 witnesses  was the need to build a broad public
 consensus in support of the energy  choices we
 make.
  The  Section 11 Hearings are only one step
 towards  building  the understanding, involvement,
 and consensus we need to make wise energy
 choices for the future. As the following pages
 clearly demonstrate, what is needed is open
communication and cooperation between all of
 us — government and industry, energy producers
and environmentalists, technical experts and
concerned  citizens — to solve America's energy and
environmental problems.

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                                                     Debating  Our Energy
                                                     Options
"/ find what appear to me to be perfectly credible
 professionals disagreeing all over the place on
 most of these new technologies."
 —Dr. Don Kash
   University  of Oklahoma
"We are told, often condescendingly, that conserva-
 tion of energy is all well and good,  but that we still
 need to produce energy.  We agree, but we hasten
 to add that the problem facing the United States, at
 least, is not one of insufficient energy.  Rather, it is
 one of tapping enough energy sources soon
 enough at acceptable economic, social and
 environmental costs  Conservation buys the time
 to permit this. . to develop the options that we
 have available now, or which we can see iust over
 the horizon."
 —Mr Sheldon Kmsall
   National Wildlife Federation
"Now, we hear of many proposals for saving of
 energy, saving of gas, saving of oil, conservation,
 improving efficiency, but. . .the near term must rely
 on improvement of developed or nearly-developed
 technologies if the results are to be a substantial
 help in the next few decades.  . .There is an
 economic  need to get on quickly with the
 expanded  use of coal, to keep our industrial
 machine and our national fiscal position  healthy.  ..'
 —Mr. Earle C. Miller
   Charles  T. Mam, Inc.
".. .most DOE and private research has placed
 emphasis on determining technical feasibility with
 little truly integrated environmental assessment
 efforts."
 —Mr. Kevin Markey
  Friends of the Earth
 Before we can make sound decisions about our
 nation's energy future, we must carefully weigh
 the advantages and disadvantages of the options
 available to us. As the testimony presented at the
 hearings eloquently demonstrates, there is wide-
 spread disagreement today over which energy
 options are viable.  Many of the witnesses who
 testified are extremely well-informed people, whose
 professional lives are involved in studying energy
 technologies and planning how to meet our
 country's future needs. Yet among these experts,
 there was  a striking lack of consensus on which
 technologies can supply us with  reliable,
 environmentally safe energy to replace  natural
 gas and petroleum.
  Likewise, there was no clear agreement among
 the witnesses on the emphasis that the Department
 of Energy should be placing on either energy
 conservation or environmental protection.  Some
 witnesses  argued persuasively that stepping up
 energy conservation could greatly extend our
 supplies of petroleum and buy us years to
 develop alternate energy sources.  Others dismissed
 energy conservation efforts as entirely inadequate
 to solve the problem and urged the Department of
 Energy to pour its resources into making new large-
 scale energy technologies operational as quickly as
 possible.
  A majority of witnesses criticized the Department
 of Energy for a lack of carefully planned and
 integrated  environmental assessments of new
 energy processes.  On the other hand, a few stated
 that we cannot afford to slow down the develop-
 ment of new energy technologies with environ-
 mental considerations because of the danger of
 creating an even more devastating energy
emergency than the 1973 oil embargo.  According
to this second viewpoint, if an energy crisis brings

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"Let's not hold up development of badly needed
 energy technologies until we have developed
 environmental protection technologies. Alter all,
 the best environmental protection equipment in the
 world is no good if there isn't an adequate energy
 supply to operate it "
 —Mr. Ronald Wishart
   Union Carbide Corporation
"When it comes to energy and environment, the
 nation can't afford confusing directions or the
 present policy of institutionalizing our differences.
 Both legislation and regulation need to be written
 and administered with the realization that energy
 and environment are part of the same organic
 system."
 —Mr. Jackson Browning
  Union Carbide Corporation
"DOE programs still suffer from an overemphasis on
 high technology protects, such as synthetic fuels,
 fission, and fusion. . . .although the numbers have
 changed somewhat,  the overall flavor of the energy
 research program has not  It is still biased toward
 nuclear over nonnuclear options, energy supply
 over conservation options, and high technology,
 central/zed protects over distributed energy
 options."
 —Mr John Abbotts
   Public Interest Research Group
". . .enormous savings in energy are available to the
 U.S. right now, derived from modest changes in
 energy consumption habits, using off-the-shelf
 hardware, and in applications of proven
 technologies "
 —Mr. Cecil Phillips
   The Georgia Conservancy
 the wheels of society to a halt, all environmental
 issues will be irrelevant anyway — at least
 temporarily.  Therefore, we had better be sure
 of our energy supplies, and worry about making
 them environmentally safe once they're in
 place.
   It is clear from all these conflicting viewpoints
 that there is no one simple solution to our nation's
 energy future.  With technical experts  in obvious
 disagreement — often promoting a favored
 technology to the exclusion of others — there
 seems to be a  real need to arrive at a more
 balanced point of view.  Many witnesses sug-
 gested that the only way to achieve this is to
 involve all the people who will  be affected by
 decisions on energy research and development.

 Energy Conservation
 During the hearings, the  Department of Energy
 came under criticism for placing too much
 emphasis — and spending too much money — on
 developing a few large-scale energy technologies,
 and far too little on energy conservation.  Several
 witnesses pointed out that, even  by conservative
 estimates, effective programs of energy conserva-
 tion could save as much as 10  to 20 percent of the
 energy we consume each year. Thus,  in ignoring
 energy conservation, it was felt that the Department
 of Energy is neglecting a  strategy that could supply
 up to one-fifth of our energy needs — simply by
 limiting consumption. Many witnesses felt that
these energy savings could be realized at a cost far
 less than that of developing a new energy
technology capable of meeting 20 percent of our
demands.
  At the  same time, witnesses  recognized that
implementing an effective nationwide program of
energy conservation will not be simple.  Even with

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" The energy industry, the universities, the various
 levels of government have all failed to prepare this
 nation for the impending scarcities of oil and
 natural gas. . . . We have created a man in the
 street who takes energy for granted — who is
 incredulous and acutely suspicious of anyone  who
 tries  to advise him that the nation's fuel tank is
 getting low.  He automatically assumes that if any
 changes in his energy consumptive habits are
 forced upon him, he will suffer some kind of
 agonizing or fatal withdrawal symptoms."
 —Mr. Cecil Phillips
   The Georgia Conservancy
" Too much emphasis is being placed on a few
 energy supply efforts, and too little on develop-
 ing new ways of using energy more efficiently.
 In areas from agriculture to architecture there are
 many things which could be accelerated to reduce
 demand and still maintain our standard of living."
 —Mr. Sheldon Kmsall
   National Wildlife Federation
"I think federal buildings could and should be show-
 cases for conservation, for solar, and for the use of
 alternative technologies.  I don't see that happen-
 ing quickly enough today."
 —Dr. Ronald Doctor
   California Conservation Development
   Commission
"There is a powerful element of citizens who want to
 conserve energy and who will be effective,  but
 these people have largely been overlooked in
 present federal and state programs. The people
 I'm referring to are home craftsmen. . .  .These are
 people who are saying, 'Help us to help ourselves.'
 They need simple information that is technically
 sound and tested, offered by sympathetic
 teachers "
 —Mr. William Partington
  Florida Conservation Foundation
all the publicity given to the energy crisis, many
Americans continue to behave as though our
supplies of energy are unlimited. In spite of rising
costs of gasoline, fuel oil, electricity, and natural
gas, most people have not made significant changes
in their driving habits or the amount of energy they
use  in their homes.  Some unions and trade
organizations have even come out against energy
conservation on  the grounds that it will cause
unemployment and business slowdowns.
  Several witnesses agreed that rather than
working to change these attitudes, the Department
of Energy is in fact encouraging them by largely
ignoring energy conservation in its research and
development budget.  Instead, witnesses said, the
Department of Energy should be taking the lead in
promoting conservation by using federal buildings
as showcases for energy-saving projects, and by
developing a much more extensive program of
public education and technology transfer.  Specific
suggestions included small grants to local govern-
ments and public interest groups for energy
conservation projects, and workshops for architects,
engineers, and builders on ways to increase energy
efficiency.  Expanded  research efforts were also
recommended as a way of exploring energy
conservation in  the context of economic,  environ-
mental, and technical factors.
  Other witnesses felt that stronger measures than
education and technology transfer are going to  be
needed to alter our ingrained habits and attitudes.
Insulation, weather stripping, passive solar design,
more efficient heating systems,  storm doors and
windows are all well-known ways of saving  energy
that  will more than pay for themselves in a few
years. Yet, most builders  still do not include these
energy-saving features in  their construction — and
consumers do not demand them. In the opinion of
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"The public remains unconvinced of the need to
 conserve energy at the cost of personal incon-
 venience, unconvinced that it is wise to invest in
 new technologies. The giants of the energy
 industry are not in a position  to profit from
 conservation or the utilization of renewable energy
 sources. .  .As a consequence, despite the risks,
 we must turn increasingly to coercive tools of
 governance, combined with subsidies and per-
 suasion, to wrench ourselves  free of an entrenched
 system of energy  supply."
 —Mr. Jonathan Lash
   Natural Resources Defense Council

"For DOE and EPA  contracting mechanisms have
 progressively deteriorated to a state wherein they
 scarcely work at all. While there appears to be an
 adequate mechanism for launching massive  under-
 takings or buying a zillion pens, there is no
 mechanism for dealing with,  .the small business
 or the creative  individual.   .Contract award times
 of eight months to a year, after a twelve-month
 planning period, are not uncommon. To initiate an
 unsolicited program is almost impossible, and I've
 even been told that certain programs were simply
 too small to be worth doing the paperwork on.
 Obviously, none of these impasses are pertinent to
 energy and environmental problems which need
 solutions."
 —Dr. Boyd Riley
   Consultant

". . .the 79 budget authorizes $1,217,000,000 for
 nuclear energy. . . .we plan to spend about $620
 million in 79 on coal research and production,
 some of it to make the use of coal less polluting. ..
 And on renewable resources,  which we will not
 be able to exploit unless we begin while we still
 have inexpensive  sources of energy, the 79 budget
 allows only $400 million, including $27  million for
 biomass. It seems a tragic ordering of priorities
 which, if held to in succeeding years, will close off
 the renewable option and leave  us only a nuclear
 future for as long as it lasts "
 —Ms. Ellen Winchester
   Sierra Club
more than one witness, the only effective way to
put energy conservation into practice is through
"coercion":  laws that require energy conservation
measures, with stiff penalties for those who fail to
obey. As an example of success of this kind of
"coercion," one witness cited EPA's regulation
requiring recycling of paper in federal buildings.
This single measure  is now saving the government
over $90,000 each month.
  Another institutional barrier to energy conserva-
tion pointed out by several witnesses is the endless
red tape involved  in dealing with the Department of
Energy  and other federal agencies.  Cumbersome
contracting mechanisms and formidable bureau-
cracies  make it next to impossible for anyone but
large corporations to do business with the
government.  Since many energy conservation
opportunities are  available to individual architects
and engineers or  small businesses, the unwieldi-
ness of the federal structure excludes a great
number of chances for putting energy conservation
to work.
  Along with specific recommendations for energy
conservation measures, many witnesses spoke in
favor of an expanded program and budget for solar
and other renewable sources of energy, with an
implicit plea for more energy conservation  These
witnesses strongly criticized the Department of
Energy's priorities as being heavily weighted in
favor of nuclear and  fossil  fuel technologies.  This
attitude, they argued, assumes that  energy
consumption  is something over which we have no
control  — leaving us no choice but to meet energy
demands, no matter  how fast they grow.  In reality,
however, we can  effectively control the amount of
energy  America uses through conservation.  This —
in the view of many witnesses —  will leave the
door open to a wide range of energy options for the
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 .   this process of energy development should not
 be allowed to wipe out unique ecological resources
 on which our society is going to depend in the
 future.  We iust do not have that right to throw
 those things away on a short term basis ..."
 —Mr. William Chandler
   Nature Conservancy
"We see a serious lack of sensitivity to environ-
 mental issues in the Department of Energy...."
 —Mr. Sheldon Kmsall
   National Wildlife Federation
"Even with the best available control technology,
 coal is polluting. .  It imposes on society long-
 term health stresses that are not yet well
 understood.  CC>2 from its effluents may cause
 disastrous climate change,"
 —Ms. Ellen Winchester
   Sierra Club
". . .Federally sponsored research should not be
 exclusively devoted to questions of technical
 feasibility. Environmental assessment should be
 made a fundamental part of any major energy
 R&D effort."
 —Mr. Kevin Markey
  Friends of the Earth
 We need to ask ourselves if zero-impact-on-the-
 environment is a viable environmental goal, or an
 unrealistic roadblock to the development of new
 technologies."
 —Mr. Ronald Wishart
  Union Carbide Corporation
future by giving us more time to experiment and
explore.  By ignoring conservation, many witnesses
felt that we are narrowing our energy choices by
dangerously limiting the amount of time we have to
choose.

Environmental Protection
Every witness at the 1978 Section 11 Hearings
agreed that we must protect our environment.
There was also agreement that protecting our
environment cannot be allowed to jeopardize
reliable supplies of energy.  What must be
achieved is a balance between energy production
and environmental protection. But there was sharp
disagreement over how and when we can reach
this goal.
  Many witnesses criticized the Department of
Energy for rushing ahead with development of
energy supply technologies without paying enough
attention to environmental protection.  They argued
that the environmental dangers of some tech-
nologies  — especially coal and oil shale — are
potentially so great that we owe it to future
generations to investigate health and ecological
effects thoroughly before committing ourselves to
any large-scale investment in them  For
technologies that could do extensive environmental
damage,  witnesses urged the Department of Energy
to give environmental assessments equal considera-
tion with the process of technology development.
  Some witnesses disagreed. They  said that we
cannot afford the luxury of equal emphasis on
environmental protection when our nation faces
possible crippling shortages of energy within the
next decade.  According to these witnesses, we
must push ahead with the development of new
sources,  even  if we have to compromise on
environmental quality in the near term. If we delay
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"Research to ensure protection of environment and
 human health must be initiated during the early
 stages, and I emphasize early stages, of process
 conception and continued through operation of
 demonstration facilities."
 —Dr Chester Ft Richmond
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory

"One of our pro/ects is to design, construct and
 operate a coal gasification and demonstration plant
 in Illinois.  . . .We were going to break ground to
 start this project this coming summer, but we have
 been advised by EPA Region 5 that we must submit
 a PSD application  for a construction permit — and
 that no way would exemptions be considered,
 regardless of the R&D nature  of the plant, its small
 size, or its limited testing period of three years. . . .
 we are probably going to have to delay construc-
 tion. .  It does seem a shame when the objective
 is to develop means to use Illinois high sulfur coal
 in an environmentally acceptable manner "
 —Mr Richard Jortberg
   Commonwealth Research Corporation

"The early development of our nation's  energy
 future requires a balanced assessment of the public
 health risks associated with various alternative
 systems and technologies. There is not currently
 available sufficient information concerning poten-
 tial health risks concerning coal utilization, and
 many other types of nonnuclear energy tech-
 nologies, to conduct such a balanced assessment "
 —Dr. Offo Raabe
   University of California
".  .we may talk about the added cost to the rate
 payers of providing the best available control
 technology for various types of pollutants, but that
 must be measured against the cost to the general
 public of the health effects if those control
 technologies are not implemented."
 — The Honorable Andrew Maguire
   Member of Congress from New Jersey
in implementing new technologies, we may get
caught in an emergency situation that will force us
to do even worse damage to the environment in the
long run.
  The same conflict was expressed in discussions
of demonstration plants for new energy tech-
nologies. Several witnesses urged that basic
environmental questions about new technologies be
answered before any demonstration plants are
built — and that the  only way to accomplish this is
through  comprehensive preconstruction environ-
mental impact statements. Others countered that
we can't wait to build demonstration  facilities until
all the environmental facts are in,  especially since
one of the purposes of these plants is to generate
information on environmental impacts.
  Along  with  these general opinions  on the
Department of Energy's basic approach  to environ-
mental protection,  many witnesses made specific
recommendations for solutions to environmental
problems.  Several called for  more  stringent
controls  for fine particulates,  and funds to develop
better control devices for hydrocarbon and sulfur
emissions.  There was a strong plea for integrating
in-depth biomedical research into the process of
developing new energy technologies.  One witness
recommended a biological survey of the whole
United States, similar to the U.S. geological survey.
Another witness suggested a review  panel of
government, industry, and scientific community
leaders to evaluate health and environmental
impacts  of all new energy technologies.
  Witnesses were  concerned that  not enough
attention has been paid to the broad  socio-
economic effects of a polluted environment.  Some
called for an assessment of the total  cost to the
general  public of adverse  health effects if controls
are not implemented on new energy  tech-
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    we do not avoid paying for environmental
 damage. It may not be noticeable, it may not seem
 to affect us personally, but nature will balance
 the books, nonetheless."
 —Mr. Sheldon Kmsall
   National Wildlife Federation
"One of the problems that is endemic to improving
 environmental performance of our technologies is a
 lack of market incentive to do so.   .there is no
 profit motive that I know of in producing a cleaner
 technology "
 —Dr Steven Reznek
   Environmental Protection Agency


"We must not compromise  or mortgage the future
 health of our citizens and  their environment while
 we strive to achieve energy independence    The
 nation must learn how to use its collective wisdom
 to decide what level of potential harm or detriment
 is socially acceptable in exchange for the energy
 produced to sustain the needs of our industry, our
 cities, and a/1 our numerous institutions "
 —Dr. Chester Ft  Richmond
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory
"For the foreseeable future, our electric power
 needs can be met by only two basic energy
 sources: coal and nuclear."
 —Mr Robert Humphries
   Georgia Power Company
"The future, beginning in a very few years, will
 feature a much more diverse mix of energy sources
 than in the past. The commercial energy sector
 will have to operate with biomass burners, wind-
 mills, mini-hydro (under 10 MW), direct solar, and
 various other things, in addition to oil,  gas, coal,
 nuclear, and big hydro (and geothermal where
 possible)."
 —Dr. Marshal Mernam
   University of California
nologies — especially coal-burning plants. The
message was that in making a cost/benefit analysis
of any new energy technology, we must not lose
sight of the broad economic impact of public health
hazards.
   In addition, the Department of Energy was urged
to provide financial incentives to industry to
encourage private sector development of new
pollution control technologies. This kind of support,
it was thought,  would remedy the  lack of market
incentive that has slowed down efforts to improve
environmental performance of control technologies.
  Witnesses at  the hearings clearly recognized that
a goal of zero impact on the environment is
unrealistic as we switch to new sources of energy
Some trade-offs between energy production and the
environment are inevitable.  The right course seems
to be to strike a balance between energy and
environmental concerns.  This we can do only by
having representatives of both sides fully involved
in deciding our energy/environmental future.

Energy Technologies
Many witnesses used their time at the hearings to
argue in favor of developing particular energy
technologies.  The Department of Energy was urged
to devote more research and development funds to
virtually every new energy technology of any
significance — coal gasification, solar energy, oil
shale, biomass,  thermionic  conversion, power cells,
wind energy, coal liquefaction, and a number of
others.  In general, these pleadings reflected a  basic
disagreement over whether our country should be
encouraging the "hard" or the "soft" technologies.
  The "hard" technologies discussed  included
large-scale centralized electric power technologies:
coal, synthetic fuels from coal, oil shale, and  large-
scale solar electricity generating plants.  These
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'.  .coal must be used in the near and medium term
 to satisfy the energy requirements of the United
 States economy."
 —Mr. Richard H. Demmy
  Roy F. Weston, Inc.
"The Carter Administration's total solar budget of
 $400 million is $40 million below the 'minimum
 realistic' budget, and Administration officials have
 not been able to develop a sound rationale for this
 miserly funding level. .  . .DOE should dramatically
 increase its solar funding. . ."
 —Mr. John Abbotts
  Public Interest Research Group
  . our nation's ground water resources are
 between 20 and 30 times greater than our surface
 water resources.  They have been underutilized,
 primarily due to lack of education. .  .We have a
 sleeping giant in energy available tens of feet
 below the earth that can be utilized directly as a
 nonnuclear fuel. ..."
 —Dr Jay Lehr
  National Water Well Association
"The government needs to encourage additional
 development and demonstration of aboveground
 (oil shale) retorting processes. ..."
 —Dr.  Thomas Sladek
  Colorado School of Mines Research Institute
'. . oil shale. .  is probably the last place on this
 earth we have to begin looking for new energy
 because of the amount of land disturbed to supply
 a very limited amount of synthetic oil...."
 —Mr. John McCormick
  Environmental Policy Center
technologies require large capital investment, are
designed to supply energy to meet any demand,
and — except for large-scale solar — they involve
more severe environmental problems than oil and
natural gas.  They also produce large amounts of
waste heat.  The advantage of these technologies is
that we already know  a lot about them. Our
country has decades of experience in designing,
building, and operating large-scale centralized
power systems. We know what they will cost.
What's more, much of the necessary delivery
system is already in place.
  By contrast, the "soft" technologies are small-
scale and dispersed, and individual units require a
much lower capital investment.  They include small-
scale solar, wind, biomass, and geothermal.  "Soft"
technologies are generally assumed to be far
cleaner and less polluting  than  "hard" technologies,
and do not produce large amounts of waste  heat.
They work on renewable sources of energy,  rather
than our finite reserves of fossil fuels.  In addition,
"soft" technologies tend to emphasize  limiting
energy consumption through conservation and
recycling.
  However, along with these obvious advantages,
"soft" technologies have a major drawback:  we
have little experience with them. This means that
questions of  cost — and of long-range efficiency
and reliability — remain unanswered.
  Witnesses in favor of the "hard" technologies
repeatedly argued that they are the only tech-
nologies that we can implement fast enough to
meet our nation's energy needs. They claimed that
if we fail to develop coal — and to a lesser extent
oil shale  — we may face very serious energy
shortages.  To some witnesses, this danger  is so
grave that we should be willing to relax our
environmental  standards until we get these
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". . .our problem of energy supply is not an 'either
 or'.  It is not we do coal gasification and we don't
 do everything else.  We need a/most everything.
 Let's pin down coal gasification  It looks like an
 easy one."
 —Mr. George Bolton
   Columbia LNG Corporation
"if this country ever expects to be less dependent
 upon foreign oil, gasohol is the fastest, least
 expensive, and cleanest way to do it."
 —Mr. Richard Merritt
   Representing Nebraska Agricultural Products
   Industrial Utilization Committee
"Energy storage is the most direct and clear path
 to upgrade the entire national electrical system.
 While not as glamorous as replacing all of the older
 systems with some new space age power systems,
 it offers major energy conservation benefits. "
 —Dr. William J Lang
   Strata Power Company
' . . .thermionic technology offers the potential for
 increased fossil fuel powerplant conversion
 efficiencies to 50 percent or more. . . .such
 an improvement,  .could result in an energy
 conservation equivalent to about three billion
 barrels of oil annually.   .it is essential that the
 federal government increase the priority given to
 the development of thermionic central station
 topping units."
 —Dr Vic F Russo
   Ad Hoc Committee on Thermionic
   Energy Conversion


"The risks are less from a premature turn to solar
 and other renewable energy sources than  from an
 effort to ride the present system until it collapses "
 —Mr Jonathan Lash
   Natural Resources Defense Council
technologies on-line, and then worry about making
them environmentally safe.
  On the other hand, witnesses who argued for
developing the "soft" technologies stressed that
these technologies will provide inexhaustible
supplies of energy without all the environmental
pitfalls of coal  and oil shale.  Granted they are new,
uncertain — technically untried   Nevertheless, if
we are willing to commit enough  money to
research and development now, we can solve these
problems.  Many witnesses reiterated that there is
no need to wait decades — that in fact, considering
the unsolved environmental  dangers of coal and oil
shale, we have no choice but to speed the develop-
ment of soft technologies.
  As this testimony indicates, energy and environ-
mental experts strongly disagreed throughout the
hearing over which energy options we should
develop — and how rapidly.  Some even disagreed
over whether or  not we should keep all  of our
options open.   Several witnesses felt that  economic
and  political considerations should limit  the number
of options we choose to develop.  Considering this
diversity of opinion, the fundamental issue in
energy research  and development seems to be not
what to  decide, but how to decide.  Equally
important is to ensure that our energy choices —
besides being technically sound — will  have the
public support  they need to be put into effect.
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                                                    Working Towards  a
                                                    Common  Goal
"/ would say that the strategic aspects of present
 efforts on conservation are reminiscent of a
 nineteenth-century military predeliction for the
 frontal assaults. They amount to a frontal assault
 directly upon perceived energy wastes. They do
 not incorporate the more subtle and more powerful
 aspects of strategy that bring indirect forces
 into play."
 —Dr.  Charles A, Berg
   Consultant
"The tendency is to emphasize needs that are
 easiest to identify and define, that is, knowledge
 and data needs  .specific 'hard science'
 disciplines, particular technologies, or specific on-
 going programs.  . . .Much more attention needs to
 be given to the policy and decision sciences "
 —Dr. Irvin White
   University of Oklahoma
"We have much new knowledge, but the complex
 interactions have created a greater lack of under-
 standing even with this new knowledge.  For
 example, acceptable estimates of energy use in the
 year 2020 range from several times that of today
 to less than that currently used."
 —Dr. Roger Caldwell
  University of Arizona
"Energy decisions in this society require building a
 consensus and building a political consensus. . . .
 the broader public is now demanding that it be
 rung in on the process of decis/onmakmg with
 regard to these new technologies."
 —Dr. Don Kash
   University of Oklahoma
In the face of disagreement among experts in the
field of energy and the environment, how can we
best decide which energy technologies to develop?
What role should the Department of Energy play in
the decisionmaking  process?  What is  the most
productive  role for federal, state, and local environ-
mental agencies and advocate groups  to play in
relation to the Department of Energy?

The Role  of the

Department of Energy
Since its founding,  the Department of Energy
has focused on technical research and develop-
ment, and several witnesses stressed  the need for
this kind of information.  But there was general
agreement at the hearings that more and better
technical information alone cannot tell us all we
need to know to make  the right decisions about our
nation's energy future.
  For one thing, we will inevitably have to make
choices without all the facts — whether they are
facts on cost, on environmental effects, or on
technical feasibility. In addition — as  these
hearings clearly show — many energy and environ-
mental professionals simply do not agree  on the
conclusions to be drawn from these facts.  This
makes the difficult choices we face even harder to
resolve, since these conflicts leave the public with
no clear basis for choosing among energy
alternatives.
  This emphasizes one of the major themes of the
1978 Section 11  Hearings:  the need for a way of
making decisions about our energy and environ-
mental future that the majority of people can
understand, trust, and accept.  For without public
understanding and support, the most promising
energy technologies could die in the commercial-
ization stage.
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"Our society has repeatedly opted for technological
 fixes, because they offer the opportunity to solve
 problems without having to face the difficult social
 and political choices implicit in strategies that
 require changing  human attitudes and behavior.
 .   there has been far too little emphasis on
 producing reliable, credible information about the
 environmental-social-economic impact of new
 technologies...."
 —Dr. Don Kash
   University of Oklahoma
"It appears to us that DOE needs a stronger dose of
 Madison Avenue in its thinking.  When you've got a
 new product available, you don't lust put it in the
 warehouse; you go out and promote it."
 —Mr Cecil Phillips
   The Georgia Conservancy
".. .DOE has no effective means for marketing,
 technology transfer, or public dissemination of
 information or technologies it helps develop.  Its
 activities seem to be limited to academic confer-
 ences and NTIS publications.  Commercialization
 will require a more active approach."
 —Mr. Kevin Markey
  Friends of the Earth
".. .there's an institutional selling yob that's got to be
 done; there's a public information campaign that's
 got to be undertaken in conjunction with the tech-
 nology demonstration."
 —Dr. Ronald Doctor
  California Conservation Development
  Commission
  To solve this problem, many witnesses recom-
mended that the Department of Energy expand its
traditional  role beyond technical research and
development to include badly needed research on
the social,  political, and economic effects of energy
technologies  In addition, witnesses emphasized
the need for research into the decisionmaking
process itself.  We are confronting choices that will
undoubtedly have profound effects on the whole
fabric of American society.  Yet we know very little
about how to make the soundest possible decision
in the face of incomplete information — or how to
ensure that our choices — once made — will be
accepted.
  Closely  related was the emphasis a number of
witnesses  placed on the need for taking a much
more active part in overcoming institutional barriers
that stand  in the way of new energy technologies
The Department of Energy was asked repeatedly to
step outside its strictly technical role  and deal
directly with the habits and attitudes  that may
prevent much-needed changes from taking place. It
was argued — and persuasively — that barriers like
mistrust of new technologies or  reluctance to
change lifestyle could well cancel out the effects of
years of technical research.
  Specific  suggestions for overcoming institutional
barriers focused on the need to make information
about new energy technologies available to the
public through an active and widespread program of
education.   Many witnesses recommended that the
Department of Energy set up classes  and
conferences all over the country to explain energy
technologies — not only to engineers, but also to
legislators, manufacturers, architects, builders, and
the general public. A National Energy Data Center
was suggested to provide access to consistent,
credible technical information for all interested
                                                                                                            27

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"Consumer attitudes can change only slowly  . .
 where consumers are not yet convinced that there's
 any crisis, that there's any need to change, or that
 the new technologies are viable."
 —Mr. Jonathan Lash
  Natural Resources Defense Council
'The goal of RD&D can no longer be regarded
 simply as the production of new technology, but
 rather the production of information useful for
 energy-related decisionmakmg."
 —Dr. Don Kash
   University of Oklahoma
". . .providing credible information. .  appropriate to
 the user of that information,  .is by far the highest
 priority level activity.
 —Dr. Donald Anderson
   Mid-American Solar Energy Center
"Our study of the National Energy Plan and the
 1979 energy RD&D budget gives us the impression
 that a great deal of work is being done in bits
 and pieces. .  .We do not see a concerted effort to
 pull these pieces together into a cogent, strategic
 attack on the energy problem itself and on some of
 its directly related problems — the economy, the
 environment, and national security."
 —Mr. Cecil Phillips
   The Georgia Conservancy
people.  In addition, more than one witness called
for an aggressive public information campaign to
promote new energy technologies through TV
programs, tours, and demonstration facilities all
over the United States.
  Although specific recommendations varied, the
general message from many witnesses at the
hearings was clear:  it is not enough for the
Department of Energy to limit  itself to technical
research and development.  The situation  has
changed.  We can no longer sit back and wait for
attitudes to evolve and new technologies to slowly
replace  old ones. The Department of  Energy must
make a  concerted effort to understand the  public's
needs, and to provide people with information on
their energy alternatives.
  Although this expanded mission raises funda-
mental  questions about the  role of government in
our society, the fact that so  many witnesses called
for it suggests a widespread feeling that energy
research and development is being carried out in a
vacuum, out of touch with the  user community —
the general public.  In particular,  there emerged  the
deep conviction that the Department of Energy — or
somebody — needs to step in  and bridge this gap.
Before it becomes unbridgeable.

The Role of

Environmental Regulation
Along with specific suggestions for expanding the
role of the Department of Energy, witnesses also
had a clear and consistent message for the Environ-
mental  Protection Agency and other environmental
agencies at the federal, state,  and local levels.
  The essence of this message was that there is a
critical need for much greater  cooperation  and
coordination between the Department of Energy
                                                                                                        29

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"Although energy and environmental goals are
 strongly interrelated, the government mechanisms
 we have set up to achieve them are not .  .We
 have environmental specialists pushing for the
 environmental goals, energy specialists pushing for
 energy goals and no apparent mechanism for
 taking the broader view that might productively
 resolve these differences."
 —Mr. Jackson Browning
   Union Carbide Corporation
".  .somebody makes a decision to stop and then
 they find out that the environmental problems are
 such that they could have been go. So then they
 go to go and then the environmental constraints
 are such that we have to go to stop. . .you get
 half-way through and then the rules change  It is
 difficult, needless to say."
 —Mr John Rigg
  Consultant, Oil Shale Industry
"The emphasis of EPA's strategies. . should
 be on the prevention of adverse effects, not under-
 taking an endless series of studies which delay
 effective action. ..."
 — The Honorable Andrew Maguire
   Congressman from New Jersey
". . .environmental issues must be addressed con-
 currently with the process development. . .  .there
 has to be an equal partnership between those
 responsible for environmental protection and the
 process development within DOE "
 —Dr. Chester R  Richmond
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory
and regulatory authorities at every level.  Energy
and the environment are now clearly seen as two
closely interwoven issues.  Yet — as the hearings
show — the agencies we have created to deal with
them  are perceived to be operating with little or no
knowledge of what the  other is doing.  Some even
see the agencies as rivals, frequently at odds with
each other. Environmental agencies are seen as
dragging their feet and  throwing  unproductive
roadblocks in the way of energy development in the
form of erratic and unrealistic regulations. At the
same time, the Department of Energy is seen as
marching ahead with energy development without
any real concern for environmental consequences.
  The solution was clear to a number of witnesses:
the Department of Energy, the Environmental
Protection  Agency, and  other agencies must begin
working together much more closely at every stage
in the development of new energy technologies.  In
this way, the environmental impacts of new
technologies can be assessed and pollution controls
designed, built, and tested  from the beginning of
development, rather than being added later.
  As part of building a  more cooperative and
productive  relationship  with the Department of
Energy, witnesses also  recommended that the
Environmental  Protection Agency and other
agencies take  on a more positive role than they
now play.  Stress was placed on  the need for
greater consistency in developing and enforcing
pollution control regulations.  In addition, witnesses
suggested  more realistic standards and lead times
for untried energy technologies, complaining that
stringent regulations can discourage innovation and
slow down development.
  All  in all, there was a call for environmental
agencies to work as partners with the Department
of Energy in finding ways to produce the energy
                                                                                                          31

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"A long-range research program of health and
 environmental evaluation should be effectively
 integrated with the evolving tecnnologies "
 —Dr. Eliahu Salmon
   Resources tor the Future, Inc.
 . . .this situation calls for a close working relation-
 ship between DOE and EPA in order that pending
 regulations and those which are being contem-
 plated. . .can become a part of the thinking within
 DOE as it designs new programs to  be included in
 future budgets . . . The public will become more
 disenchanted with federal participation in energy
 research programs if it becomes aware of
 expensive technologies being abandoned in mid-
 stream as new pollution  standards require
 emissions the technology cannot meet."
 —Mr John McCormick
  Environmental Policy Center
".  .there's an enormous lack of communication
 across the country, despite established institutions
 that are supposed to communicate results from
 state to state or from state to federal government
 and back  The communication links don't seem to
 work effectively."
 —Dr. Ronald Doctor
  California Conservation Development
  Commission
America needs without endangering our environ-
ment.  For the proponents of energy development
and environmental protection to be perceived as
adversaries can only delay the process of choosing
clean,  safe energy sources for the future.  It was
felt that such an image cannot help but confuse
the public and cause suspicion and distrust of any
new energy technology. This reinforced the con-
clusion that a good working relationship between
the Environmental Protection  Agency and the
Department of Energy is essential to the process
of gaining public support for our energy choices.
                                                                                                              33

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                                                     Building  a  Consensus
"Labor, industry, federal and state agencies, and
 environmentalists. . must be brought into the
 discussions about actions and measures that have
 to be considered for environmental pollution
 abatement.  . .These groups must understand why,
 when, and how necessary adiustment measures will
 be implemented. . . .Only with the full participation
 of those affected and the support of onlookers can
 a political consensus in support of the decisions
 be realized."
 —Dr. William Jones
  Massachusetts Institute of Technology
'The biggest single challenge to science and
 technology policymaking in the U.S. is that our
 consensus-building machinery has broken down."
 —Dr.  Chester Richmond
   Oak Ridge National Laboratory
".. .greater public participation should be sought in
 formulating research policy and goals and in
 identifying environmental concerns which should
 be evaluated in RD&D programs Data developed^
 by federal programs should be publicly available."
 —Mr. Kevin Markey
  Friends of the Earth
"New technologies seem to be implemented more
 easily if they are well developed and understood
 prior to commercialization, if user groups are
 involved in the development. . . .Public involvement
 is lust as important in the RD&D decisionmaking
 process as in any other agency activity, but it is
 frequently ignored by agencies	"
 —Dr. Roger Caldwell
   University of Arizona
No matter which energy technologies we finally
decide on for the future, our decisions are going to
need widespread public backing.  This point was
stressed repeatedly during the hearings by many
different witnesses — whether they favored coal,
solar energy, or conservation as the answer to our
energy future.
  There was a general conviction at the hearings
that today, the public is simply not being adequately
informed about or involved in the process of energy
research and development.  Energy decisions  that
will directly affect all of our lives seem to be made
behind closed doors.  Many witnesses expressed
the feeling of being excluded from participating in
the choices that will shape the future  more pro-
foundly than any other decisions today's society is
making.  What's more, witnesses clearly saw  those
widespread feelings of alienation as a real threat
to the success of our nonnuclear energy research
and development program.
  The strongest single statement,  in fact, to come
out of the hearings was that the Department of
Energy, EPA, and other federal, state,  and local
agencies must begin to present the facts about our
energy and environmental alternatives to the  public.
These agencies must also do a better job of defining
the uncertainties we face with regard to energy
supplies, environmental  effects, and costs to
society.  Furthermore, this information must be
presented clearly, in a way the public  can under-
stand and use — because even though the issues
involved are technical and complex, public par-
ticipation can only come with  understanding and
acceptance of the risks  and alternatives.  To achieve
this, the public must be viewed as a valuable
source of information — and a necessary
component in the decisionmaking  process.  Any
decision arrived at without broad public consensus
runs the risk of never being implemented.
                                                                                                         35

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".. .we're not lust developing a bunch of tech-
 nologies  We're talking about a fundamental social
 change, and as we develop those technologies
 we've got to develop the kind of social-political
 support for those technologies which make them
 operate."
 —Dr. Don Kash
  University of Oklahoma
  The witnesses at the 1978 Section 11 Hearings
recognized that building this public consensus on
energy and the environment will not be easy. It will
require openly debating issues to resolve conflicts.
Making compromises.  And, in general, recognizing
that the final decisionmaking responsibility on
issues as central to society as energy and the
environment can only rest with the people.
  Building  a consensus is bound to be a slow and
difficult process. Yet it is a process that must be
undertaken before we  can make a transition from
the petroleum age to an age of new energy
sources.
                                                                                                         37

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 The  1978 Section  11   Hearings
 Witnesses
  Consulting  Firms/
  Consultants


  Dr. Charles A. Berg

  Dr. Meyer Katzper
  Systems and Information Analysis

  Mr. Richard Merritt
  Representing Nebraska Agricultural
  Products Industrial Utilization Committee

  Mr. John Rigg

  Dr. Boyd Riley
Utilities/Industry/
Trade Associations
Mr. George Bolton
Director of Supply Technology
Columbia  LNG Corporation

Mr. Jackson Browning
Corporate Director
Health, Safety & Environmental Affairs
Union Carbide Corporation

Mr. Norman M.  Clapp
Vice-President
Energy Development & Resources  Corp

Mr. Richard H. Demmy
Executive  Vice-President
Roy F Weston, Inc

Mr. Tyler Gass
Director of Technical Services
National Water Well Association

Mr. Robert  Humphries
Environmental Information Manager
Georgia Power Company

Mr. Richard Jortberg
General Manager
Commonwealth Research  Corporation

Dr. William J. Lang
President
Strata Power Company

Dr. Jay Lehr
Executive  Director
National Water Well Association

Mr. Earle  C. Miller
Vice-President
Charles T  Mam, Inc
Mr. William Rogers
Manager,  Environmental Affairs
Gulf Mineral Resources Company

Dr  Benjamin Schlesinger
Director, Policy & Economic Analysis
American  Gas Association

Mr. Ronald Wishart
Director of Energy & Transportation Policy
Energy Supply Service Group
Union Carbide Corporation
38

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State and Federal
Government
Dr. Ronald Doctor
Commissioner of Energy Resources
California Conservation Development
Commission

The Honorable Andrew Maguire
Member of Congress from New Jersey
(Statement delivered by Mr Tod Caliguire)

Dr. Chester R. Richmond
Associate Director for Biomedical and
Environmental Sciences
Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Dr. David Stricos
Principal Utility Research Analyst
New York State Public Service
Commission
 Environmental/
 Conservation  Organizations
 Mr. John Abbotts
 Public Interest Research Group

 Dr. Donald Anderson
 Director
 Mid-American Solar Energy Center

 Mr. William Chandler
 Nature Conservancy

 Mr. Gary DeLoss
 Washington Representative
 Environmental Policy Center

 Mr. Sheldon Kinsall
 Assistant Conservation Director
 National Wildlife Federation

 Mr. Jonathan Lash
 Natural Resources Defense Council

 Mr. Kevin Markey
 Colorado  Representative
 Friends of the Earth

 Mr. John McCormick
 Environmental Policy  Center

 Mr. J. David O'Connor
 Solar  Project Director
 Center for Energy Policy

 Mr. William Partington
 Director
 Environmental Information Center
 Florida Conservation Foundation

 Mr. Cecil  Phillips
 Executive Director
The Georgia Conservancy
Dr. Vic F. Russo
The Ad Hoc Committee on
Thermionic Energy Conversion

Dr. Eliahu Salmon
Senior Research Associate
Resources for the  Future, Inc

Mrs. Ellen Winchester
Chairperson
National Energy Policy Committee
Sierra Club
                                                                                                                     39

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                                           Panel  Members
  Universities
  Dr. Roger Caldwell
  Council for Environmental Studies
  College of Agriculture
  University of Arizona

  Dr. William Jones
  Energy Laboratory
  Massachusetts Institute of Technology

  Dr. Don Kash
  Science and Public Policy Program
  University of Oklahoma

  Dr. George Lot
  Solar Energy Applications Laboratory
  Colorado State University

  Dr. Marshal Merriam
  Department of Materials Science
  University of California

  Dr. Otto Raabe
  Radio Biology Laboratory
  University of California

  Dr. Thomas Sladek
  Energy Division
  Colorado School of Mines
  Research Institute

  Dr. Theodore Taylor
  Consultant and Visiting Lecturer
  Princeton University

  Dr. Irvin White
  Science and Public Policy Program
  University of Oklahoma
Wednesday,
29  March 1978

Chairman
Dr. Stephen J. Gage
Assistant Administrator for Research and
Development
Environmental Protection Agency

Dr. Steven Reznek
Acting Deputy Assistant Administrator for
Energy, Minerals and Industry
Environmental Protection Agency

Ms. Adlene Harrison
Regional Administrator, Region VI
Environmental Protection Agency

Dr. James MacKenzie
Council on Environmental Quality

Ms. Virginia Van Sickle
Office of State Planning
State of Louisiana
Thursday,
30 March 1978

Chairman
Dr. Steven Reznek
Acting Deputy Assistant Administrator for
Energy, Minerals  and Industry
Environmental Protection Agency

Mr. Roy Gamse
Deputy Assistant  Administrator for
Planning and Evaluation
Environmental Protection Agency
                                                                       Region
Mr. Henry Lee
Director
Massachusetts Energy Office

Dr. James MacKenzie
Council on Environmental Quality

Mr. Eric Cutwater
Deputy Regional Administrator, Region
Environmental Protection Agency
Friday,
31  March
1978
Chairman
Dr. Steven Reznek
Acting Deputy Assistant Administrator for
Energy, Minerals and Industry
Environmental Protection Agency

Dr. John Davidson
Council on Environmental Quality

Ms. Rebecca Hanmer
Deputy Regional Administrator, Region I
Environmental Protection Agency

Mr. Jeff Herholdt
Assistant Director
West Virginia Fuel  and Energy Office

Mr. Alan Merson
Regional Administrator, Region VIII
Environmental Protection Agency

Mr. Robert Siek
Deputy Commissioner
Department of Natural Resources
State of Colorado
                                                                       U.S.  Envirormental Protection Agencj
                                         Library 15PL-16)
40
                                                                       230^-  dearborn Stfeet, Room  1670
                                                                                   IL    60604

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