TRANSCRI-PT
REGIONAL PUBLIC MEETINGS ON THE
RESOURCE CONSERVATION AND RECOVERY ACT of 1976
February 17 and 18, 1977, Richmond, Va.
These meetings were sponsored by EPA Region III,
and the proceedings (SW-12p) are reproduced entirely as transcribed
by the official reporter, with handwritten corrections
by the Office of Solid Waste
U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
1977 TV
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An environmental protection publication (SW-12p) in the solid waste management series.
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UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
REGION III
6th and Walnut Streets,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106
IN RE: Public Meeting, :
Resource Conservation and :
Recovery Act. :
February 17, 1977,
Colony House - Executive Motor Inn,
5215 West Broad Street,
Richmond, Virginia.
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RICHMOND VIRGINIA
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1 APPEARANCES:
2
Gordon Rapier, Director of the Air and Hazardous Materials
Division of the Environmental Protection Agency,
Region III, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
Charles Howard, Solid Waste Program, Environmental
Protection Agency,
William Schrimp, Solid Waste Program, Environmental
b Protection Agency,
7 Shirley Martin, Public Affairs Office, Environmental
Protection Agency, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;
8
Alma Mullane, Public Affairs Office, Environmental
9 Protection Agency, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;
10 Rowland Dorer, Director of the Bureau of Solid Waste and
Vector Control, Virginia State Department of Health.
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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
Herbert C. Braun, R. Stuart Royer & Associates;
Bill Streaker, Federal Paper Board Co., Inc., Ill South
Street, Farmville, Virginia 23901;
W. P. Gains, Prince Edward County,
D. L. Woodrow, Roanoke Valley Regional Solid Waste
Management Goard,
Michael H. Diem, U. S. Army Environmental Hygiene Agency,
Paul C. Small, Williamsburg, Virginia,
J. Lawrence Hosmer, James and Moore,
W. C. Rigsby, Virginia State Chamber of Commerce,
D, H, Breenl, Union Camp Corp.,
Penny Beale, State Water Control Board,
Newton H. Ancarrow, Reclaim the James,
u j! J. B. Kegley, Virginia State Health Department,
15 J John N. Miller, U.S.B.A.,
ij
16 ! Tom O'Toole, G. W. Clifford & Associates, Inc.,
Sidney A. Clower, Buckingham County Administrator,
E. M. Jennelle, Dewberry, Newlan & Davis,
jack Liedl, County of Fairfax,
Charles F. Clayton, R. Stuart Royer & Associates,
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W. J. Meyer, VPI and' State Health Department,
Clay Blanton, R. Stuart Royer & Associates,
Richard Y. Hamilton, City of Roanoke,
Lloyd L, Spangler, U.S. Army Environmental Hygiene,
Taylor J. Ferrier, R. Stuart Royer & Associates,
Robert F. Skoog, IU Conversion Systems,
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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
Carroll A. Sawyer, Hercules, Incorporated, Franklin, Virginia,
J. K. Farrell, Hercules, Inc., Wilmington, Delaware,
Louis E,, Cullipher, Soil Conservation Service, USDA,
Ron Rebiaan, Planning District 16,
Catherine Shank, Planning District 20,
W. J. Reedy, Commission of Social Work,
Roy S. Stephenson, Smith County P.S.A.,
Charles D. Silcox, Tazewell County,
Bobby R., Jane, Dewberry, Nealon & Davis,
Ensign B.C. Kelley, USCG Marine Safety Office, Hampton Roads,
1 Virginia,
11 B. Adkiris, Versar, Inc. ,
13 Junior R. Vass, City of Galax, Virginia,
14 Andrew McCutchean, Reynolds Metals Corporation,
I. N. Koontz, R. Stuart Royer & Associates,
16 Paul Emler, Jr., Allegheny Power Service Corp.,
17 Mark R. Stephens, Dawes & Moore,
18 H. Ronald Coake, Town of Pulaski, Virginia,
19 Lawrencu Norton, Jr., NACA,
20 Francis Satterlee, Commission of Game & Inland Fisheries,
James M,. Snyder, Union Camp Corp.,
22 Larry G, Lawson, State WaterControl Board,
23 R. Leonard Vance, Attorney General's Office,
24 Kenneth Duncan, County of Fairfax,
25 David Harttone, County of Fairfax,
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APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
Kenneth V. Duncan, Prince George's County Council,
E. M. Jennelle, Dewberry, Nealon & Davis,
Jack Liedl, Director, Office of Waste Management, County
of Fairfax, Fairfax, Virginia,
J. Lawrence Hosmer, Dames & Moore, Suite 700, 7101 Wisconsin
6 Avenue, Washington, D,C. 20014,
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7 William J. Gein, Prince Edward County Public Works,
Don Silcox, Tazewell County,
9 Herbert C. Braun and
Charles F. Cayten, R. Stuart Royer & Associates,
W, C. Rigsby, Virginia State Chamber of Commerce,
David G. Hartlove, Prince George's County Council,
Thomas J. O'Toole, Gilbert W. Clifford & Associates, Inc.,
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Franklin D. Kizer, Council of State Science Supervisors.
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CRANE - SNEAD & ASSOCIATES
COURT REPORTERS
1108 EAST MAIN STREET
RICHMOND, VIRGINIA
PHONE 648-2801
1 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Good evening ladies
2 and gentlemen, can everyone hear me? I'd like
3 to welcome you to our public meeting to discuss
4 the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of
5 1976. I'm Gordon Rapier and I'm the Director
6 of the Air and Hazardous Materials Division of
7 the Environmental Protection Agency, Region III,
8 in Philadelphia. With me tonight are members
9 of our regional staff. We have Mr. Charles
10 Howard from our Solid Waste Program. Mr. William
11 Schrimp, also from our Solid Waste Program.
12 Shirley Martin, the young lady back there, also
13 Miss Alma Mullane, from our Public Affairs Office
H in Philadelphia. We also have members of the
15 Office of Solid Waste in Washington and I shall
ie introduce them individually as they make their
17 presentations tonight. Last but by no means
18 least we have with us tonight, Mr. Rowland Dorer,
19 the Director of the Bureau of Solid Waste and
2P Vector Control, Virginia State Department of
21 Health.
22 The purpose of the meeting is to explain
.,.3 the provisions of the new Resource Conservation
24 and Recovery Act of 1976, which was signed into
25 law in October, 1976. You should all have a copy
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1 of the Act or there are enough back there so
2 you can receive one If you wish.
3 The new law might be more appropriately
called the solid waste disposal act since it
deals with all aspects of solid waste management
6 including land disposal of solids and liquid
7 waste, and the management of hazardous and
g chemical wastes. The Act includes provisions
9 for maximum public participation in the writing
10 of the guidelines and regulations. So we are
H here to discuss with you and to receive your
12 comments and answer your questions about the
13 various aspects of the law.
14 In passing this new Act Congress intended
15 that the full range of disposal methods for
16 unwanted materials be regulated.
17 In prior years we have had laws regulating
18 the disposal into the air, into the water and
19 the ocean and now this bill will regulate land
2Q disposal for the first time at the federal level.
2i The law encourages the states to take over the
22 administration of the program. Your views on
23 this should be conveyed to your state officials.
24 Following are a few crucial areas of
25 implementation where we feel your views and
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1 guidance are most critical. One, precisely
2 how should hazardous waste be defined? Since
much of the damage from hazardous waste occurs
before the reach treatment, storage and landfill
disposal facilities and since the Act focuses only
6 on upgrading land disposal facilities to take
7 care of those wastes which fall outside of the
hazardous waste definition it is clear that how
9 hazardous wastes are defined is a critical
10 element in implementing the Act,
Two, in which ways, if any, would the
12 definition of hazardous waste have a bearing
13 on the spate's willingness to take over
14 responsibility for the program? Which, under
15 the Act, is not mandatory but, of course, highly
16 desirable.
Three, what would be the best way to
insure that hazardous wastes are defined to the
19 fullest extent possible on standardized objective
criteria and associated tests and at the same
21 time not put too great a burden on many potential
22 hazardous wastes generators who are small
23 businesses?
24 Four, wastes are mixtures of many different
25 materials. To what extent can criteria and
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1 tests be applied to wastes and to what extent to
2 suspected hazardous components?
3 Five, the Act requires a definition of a
4 sanitary landfill and of the obverse an open dump.
5 To apply, we feel, to both municipal and industrial
6 wastes and possibly to others from agricultural or
7 mining, should pit pond and lagoons used for the
8 discharging of industrial wastes be defined as
9 open dumps unless they meet the sanitary landfill
10 criteria?
n Sixth, what kind of process should EPA
12 establish to determine which guidelines should
13 be written or updated?
14 Seven, with regard to sfate and local
15 planning. What process should be employed to
16 enable governors and local government heads to
17 decide who does the planning and implementation
lg for which aspects of the solid waste management
19 and which percent of planning funds each should
20 receive?
2i Eight, how should the waste disposal
22 inventory be carried out? Who should do it?
23 How decentralized should it be? How can we
24 survey facilities on industrial property?
25 Nine, what is the degree of need for a
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1 full scale demonstration project on resource
2 recovery?
3 Ten, resource conservation panels or
4 technical assistance panels are important to the
5 success of the Act. How comprehensive should
6 they be? How much should they focus on resource
7 conservation and recovery in relationship to a
8 focus on hazardous waste and land disposal of all
9 waste. What should be the proper composition
10 of such panel to insure appropriate representation
11 to state, regional, and local levels of government?
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12 Eleven, the Act mandates several special
13 studies and directs a broad range of supportive
14 research and development activities be carried
IS out. Can new research and development be
16 performed in time to influence the formulation of
17 mandated guidelines and regulations? Which
lg activities should be considered essential in the
jg development of the solid waste management
20 alternatives and therefore considered high priority
2i for research?
22 Tw^Qve, unlike the Water Control Act and
23 the Clean Air Act, this Act does not mandate
24 quantifiable objectives but rather gives broad
25 guidance as to the law's intent. Open dumps are
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1 to be closed and hazardous wastes are to be
2 regulated within a certain time frame. But no
3 measures of environmental or public health
4 improvements are suggested. Should we, however,
5 try to assign meaningful quantifiable objectives
6 to the solid waste area? If so, what kind of
7 monitoring and feedback systems should be provided
to evaluate results?
9 Thirteen, the Act mandates a high degree
10 of public participation in the development and
implementation of the regulations, guidelines,
12 permits, and information required by the law,
13 How can we best obtain public participation in
14 a timely and meaningful way? What avenues should
15 EPA explore to insure really widespread and
16 effective public participation?
Those are some of the questions that I
hope might peak your thoughts. We hope to have
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a comment period after we have some presentations
by various people. What I plan to do is have
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21 several speakers present information that is
germane to the Act and its implementation. The
floor will then be opened for limited questions
24 on that subject matter. I would like, if
25 possible, to hold any statements that are to be
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1 read until approximately nine o'clock. With
2 I that I'd like to introduce to you, Mr. Rowland
Dorer of the Virginia Department of Health for
a few remarks.
MR. ROWLAND DORER: I certainly didn't
g come here to talk, I came to listen, the same
7 as you have. I read over the Act at least a
dozen times, and it's hard for me to comprehend
9 all that's in it. And so I hope this evening
10 to gain a little more knowledge about it.
11 We've always been concerned with the
12 solid waste problem in Virginia. In the past
13 too little attention has been paid to it. I can
14 remember the days when the solution to the solid
15 waste problem was hide it, get it out of sight.
16 Out of sight out of mind. But, of course,
17 we've come a long way since then.
18 There are three reasons why we should be
concerned. One is the public health and safety
20 aspect of solid waste. Two is the possibility
2i of degrading the environment, permanently arid
22 semipermanently and aesthetically. Three,
23 we should be concerned with the conservation of
24 our resources and energy.
25 Back in the old days we became interested
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i in solid waste because of insects and rodents,
2 Of course, we now are much more concerned with
3 other things. The recent events last year have
4 demonstrated to us the vital importance of properly
5 handling hazardous waste.
At the present time we are handling
hazardous wastes on a case-by-case basis and as
far as I'm concerned it will always be on a
9 case-by-case basis. However, we need to know
10 more and better ways to do this and this, I hope,
will come out of this Act, While much progress
has been made in the state, in the last few years,
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13 we have hardly scratched the surface. Much more
needs to be done,
15 The new Resource Conservation and Recovery
Act addresses itself to these extremely
complicated and important problems. This meeting
tonight is for the purpose of discussing and
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explaining the provisions of the law and to invite
free exchange and to help EPA in administrating
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91 this. Thank you very much.
MR. GORDON RAPIER: Thank you, Rowland.
Before I introduce our first speaker from the
24 Solid Waste Office in Washington, I'd like to
95 introduce another of our regional office
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I
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1 personnel. Mr. Warren Carter, who is our DC
2 coordinator. Who, incidentally, is available
very frequently through his Washington office if
people in Virginia have environmental problems
that they'd like to bring to his attention.
6 Our first person from the Office of
7 Solid Waste will be Mr. George Garland who is the
Chief of the Technical Assistance Branch, -fctie-
S ^s r/Svv) 5
9 -Aooiotanoe- Management Division, Office of Solid
10 Waste in Washington. George is going to talk
about the general topics of training, public
12 information, and public participation.
13 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: Thank you, Gordon.
14 Can everybody see that slide? The Resource
15 Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976, contains
16 an unusually complete array of provisions which
17 could bring about a high degree of public
understanding and participation. Taken together
19 these various provisions make it clear that
Congress understood that it is impossible for the
21 public to participate meaningful unless the
22 government first proceeds, produces valid data
that processes and publishes the information in
24 such a way that everyone may have real access
25 to it. Only in this way can the public really
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1 have a reasonable chance of influencing the
2 social, economic and political changes which the
law will bring about.
4 Could I have the first slide? Okay,
5 Section 8003^6^57", the administrator of EPA
6 is required to develop, collect, evaluate and
7 coordinate information on nine key elements
which are crucial to the Act's purposes, The
administrator is not only to implement a program
10 for the rapid dissemination of information, he
U also is to develop and implement educational
12 programs to promote citizen understanding. Hold
13 it, I think we've got the wrong slide.
14 This makes it quite clear that the
15 information called for is not to be developed for
16 the exclusive use of those who, for one reason or
the other, may be considered experts in the field,
Moreoever, the administrator is asked to
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19 coordinate his actions and cooperate to the
maximum extent possible with state and local
21 authorities. And to establish and maintain a
22 central library for virtually all kinds of
23 Information involved in solid waste management
24 for use of state, local governments, industries
25 and the public.
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1 To insure that the public participation
2 process does not become lopsided we felt it was
3 necessary to identify major categories of interest
4 groups who represent the public at large.
5 Under the Resource Conservation and
6 Recovery Act we regarded these to include the
7 consumer, environmental and neighborhood groups,
8 trade, manufacturing and labor representatives,
9 public health, scientific and professional
10 societies, and governmental and university
11 associations. This spectrum of categories of
12 representative groups will be altered and
13 supplemented as necessary, if in the course of
14 implementing the Act it appears desirable to
15 do so.
16 The next slide. Section 7004(A) of
17 the Act states, that any person may petition
lg the administrator for the promulgation,
19 amendment, or repeal of any regulation under
20 this Act. Section 7004(B) has to do with
2i public participation. The Act says that public
22 participation in the development, revision, and
23 enforcement of any regulation, guideline,
24 information, or program under this Act shall be
25 provided for, encouraged, and assisted by the
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i Administrator and the states. And further the
2 Act goes on -- can I have the next slide -- the
Administrator, in cooperation with the states,
4 shall develop and publish minimum guidelines for
5 public participation in such processes.
@ Section 7002(A), of the Act states that
7 any person may commence a civil action on his own
behalf against any other person including the
9 United States who is alleged to be in violation
10 of this Act or against the administrator if there
n is alleged a failure by the administrator to
]2 perform any act or duty under this Act.
13 The many techniques which can be used
14 to involve the public in government actions
15 fall into three major categories. One, to insure
16 that appropriate public meetings, hearings,
conferences, workshops and so forth are held
throughout the country. That they are planned
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and held in accordance with the unfolding of the
Act's key provisions.
21 Can I have the next slide? Two, use of
advisory committees and review groups which may
meet periodically but which will also be called
upon to review and comment upon major programs,
regulations and plans no matter when they occur
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1 and no matter whether a specific meeting is
2 convened or not,
3 Three, development of an educational
4 program so that the public has an opportunity
5 to become aware of the significance of the
6 technical data base and the issues which emerge
7 from it. Effective public education programs
8 depend on the use of all appropriate communication
9 tools, techniques and media. These include
10 publications, slides, films, exhibits and other
11 graphic, media programs and including public
12 service television and radio announcements and
13 releases to the daily and professional press,
14 And public education projects carried out by
15 service and civic organizations with EPA's
16 technical and financial assistance.
17 The next slide. Section 7007(A & B)
18 authorize the Administrator to make grants to,
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19 and contracts with any eligible organization
20 for training persons for occupations involving
21 the management, supervision, design, operation,
22 or maintenance of solid waste disposal and
23 resources recovery equipment and facilities or
24 to train in sectors. Eligible organization means
25 state or any state agency, municipality or
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1 educational institution capable of effectively
2 carrying out a proj ect,
j Section 7007 (C), states that the
4 administrator shall make a complete investigation
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5 and study to determine the need for additional
6 trained state and local personnel to carry out
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7 plans assisted under this Act. And to determine
g a means of using existing training programs to
9 train such personnel, and to determine the extent
10 and nature of obstacles to employment and
11 occupational advancement in the solid waste
12 disposal and resource recovery field. The
13 ^administrator is required to report the results
14 of such investigation and study to the President
15 and Congress. In view of the manpower limitations
16 and the many time mandated provisions of the Act,
17 it is not likely that the training activity or
lg manpower study will be begun during this fiscal
19 year.
20 I want to take questions on each portion,
21 ao if there's any questions on the public
22 participation or the manpower development parts
23 of the Act I'll take them at this time.
24 UNIDENTIFIED: Are you going to make an
25 announcement for a public meeting and then ask
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1 comments and ask the public to comment? As far
2 as comments, what are they going to comment on?
3 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay, There are a
4 number of regulations that are called for under
5 the Act, and the Act also calls for a hearing to
6 be held for most of these regulations and some
7 Of the guidelines. We'll announce in the Federal
Register that we are having hearings on the draft
9 of the -- wait a minute now -- there will be a
10 publication of a proposed rule making in the Federal
n Register and then there will be an announcement
12 in the Federal Register, of a public hearing.
13 And probably there will be more than one public
14 hearing, probably they'll be public hearings in
15 the various parts of the country. So that, for
16 example, when the regulation defining hazardous
17 waste is promulgated it will appear in the Federal
18 Register and then there will be a series of public
19 hearings on that and subsequent to that there
20 will be a final rule making.
21 UNIDENTIFIED: Okay. In the Federal
22 Register, but how does the lay public hear about
23 meetings, not many people see the Federal Register.
24 How do you propose to inform the general public?
25 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: Okay. We intend
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1 to follow the procedures which are similar to the
2 one we used to convene this meeting. Which
3 includes publications in local newpapers and so
4 forth. We don't intend just to use the Fed_eral
5 Register but we intend to make a sincere attempt
6 to reach everybody.
7 Gordon reminded me that we will have,
8 if we're allowed to have one by OMB, a formal
9 advisory group. In the interim we have an ad hoc
10 advisory group which will consist of about thirty
n or forty representatives of the whole spectrum
12 of interests. Such as I mentioned in my talk.
13 And these people will represent not just
14 themselves, but the entire segment of the
15 population. We recognize that, well, that's
16 another vehicle. It does not take the place
of a public hearing though.
UNIDENTIFIED: You mentioned grants and
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I'm familiar with the EPA-Water Control Board
situation here in Virginia. How do you plan to
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21 handle the grants through this program? In
Virginia tne7 come through the _s.tate agencies
„„ and then they're passed on to the region.
Zo
24 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: Well, I'm going to
25 be talking about the state program grants and the
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i implementation grants. There's a whole series
2 of grants that I'll get to later. The grants I
3 mentioned here are training grants and those
4 probably will not be, we probably will not
5 implement that section of the Act in the foreseeable
•5
6 future.
7 Would you like for these people to state
their names?
9 THE COURT REPORTER: That's up to you.
10 MR. GEORGE GARLAND; Yes. Would you
u state your name?
12 MR. ROY S, STEPHENSON: These people that
13 adopt these rules and regulations, do they, do
14 any of these people or have they ever operated
any of these things down to the operator level
16 on these different problems? Have they been
closely associated in abiding by these rules down
to the very bottom?
18
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: We have been
involved in various demonstration grants so we
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21 have professionals on the staff who have been
closely involved in the nitty-gritty, of getting
something working. We have people who have had
to sit through hearings for getting sites approved
which has lasted all hours of the night. But we're
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not counting on that. We're not counting on
our own people having all the knowledge and all
the information. We're counting on people who
4 do have to operate landfills and have to handle
5 these hazardous wastes to tell us whether &r-
6 proposed regulations make any sense or not or
7 whether we're passing regulations that are totally
g unworkable. We're counting on feedbacks from
9 people at the working level.
MR. WILLIAM MEYER: I was wondering, you
mentioned the advisory group, are the names of
those people going to be publicized and where
13 they come from so we can get some contact with
14 them?
15 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes, that whole
16 process goes through the Federal Register,
17 MR. WILLIAM MEYER: Well, I'd just like
lg to point out again here, I'm working with these
n&co
Federal Register of any type. So you're not
2i really communicating very good there.
22 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Well, we have not
23 actually selected the ad hoc advisory group yet.
24 When we do that will be well publicized.
25 MR. GORDON RAPIER: One of the things that
things and I very seldome"come in contact with a
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I think would be very useful for our regional
offices to do would be to work with the jstates
and the counties and the local solid waste
directors to make sure that we get from Washington
out to them, all of the activity and all of the
6 public participation programs that are going on
7 with enough lead time so that individuals who
8 wish to participate and who wish to make statements
9 will have an opportunity to do so. That's one
10 of the reasons for this meeting tonight. To begin
to inform the public about the major issues and
12 the major kinds of things that we want your
13 feedback on. Operating the landfill in, well,
14 Hopewell, I will not pick that one.
15 (Laughing from the audience) Where
16 should I pick, Norfolk? Norfolk may not be the
same, well, say Norfolk you may not, it may not
be the same as operating in the arid conditions
io
in Nevada. It's those regional kinds of things
iy
„ and differences that our agency is concerned about.
2i We want to make sure that our regulations have
22 enough flexibility so that they are viable.
23 So that to the extent that we can all do so,
we're going to try to get to the state directors,
25 to the county directors, and to the local folks
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1 information on everything that's happening before
2 it happens.
3 MR, RAY STEPHENSON: What is the
4 relationship between this meeting tonight and
5 what the City of Richmond and Chesterfield County
6 are trying to do when they propose either the
1 generation of steam and/or a storable useable
8 fuel for solid waste as collected from your house
9 or mine?
10 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay. The Resource
11 Conservation and Recovery Act is supposed to
12 provide a focus at the federal level for resource
13 conservation and recovery. That includes a
14 demonstration, it includes a panel to consider
15 things that should be done in the resource
16 conservation and recovery area. These provisions
17 will be discussed by Steve Lingle a little later.
lg Does that answer your question?
19 MR. RAY STEPHENSON: You are working
20 with them or they are working with you or what?
21 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Not to my knowledge
22 at this time. Okay.
23 MR. STEVE LINGLE: There is an
24 implementation grant which happens to have, this
25 Act does provide authority for additional grants
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1 of this type. Instead of the specific direct
2 relationship between the two things right now.
There's a lot of resource conservation and recovery
provisions in this Act and that's what Richmond
is considering right now.
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Actually that is
a grant under the predecessor to this Act which
allowed people here to get the groundwork laid
9 to do that kind of thing.
10 MR. MICHAEL H. DIEM: I want to find out
11 about this communications thing. Whether this
12 is an EPA Region III thing or they want to assemble
13 a list of county or _state agencies or other
14 federal agencies and then disseminate the
15 information by a public meeting to them or whether
16 we still will have to find out the way we found
17 out when we made it here tonight?
18 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Well, how did you
19 find out about it tonight?
20 MR. MICHAEL H. DIEM: Well, I read the
21 Solid Waste Report which is one of these biweekly
22 or bimonthly publications. So that's one of the
23 ways.
24 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Do you have any
25 suggestions?
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MR, MICHAEL H. DIEM: No, let me suggest
this, that perhaps you could assemble either the
names or contact people in either the jtates or
counties or the federal and when you have a need
to send them out you can take this mailing list
and send it out to them and say here's what we
have got going on at a certain date and time.
Please come. You've got a good start right here
9 with the people here.
10 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Alma, how did we do
n this thing? We have a mailing list here.
12 MS. ALMA MULLANE: We have an entire
13 mailing list in addition to radio stations and
14 TV stations and newspapers. But these places
were called and to our knowledge the information
16 got out.
MR. GORDON RAPIER: Well, this is a good
suggestion. But if there's folks here that think
lo
they ought to be on the list or if you know of
somebody then please give us the names. We'll
21 be glad to do this.
22 MR. MICHAEL H, DIEM: As a follow-up we
„ get the Federal Register in our office every
£, j " -.._.. _
24 single day. I didn't see anything in the Federal
25 Register about this meeting. I didn't see anything
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about this meeting.
MR. GORDON RAPIER: This was not in it.
MR. MICHAEL H. DIEM: Then I didn't
miss anything.
MR. FRANCIS N. SATTERLEE: I'm Francis
6 Satterlee and I'm with the Virginia Outdoor Writers
7 Association. On your contact with newspapers,
how many, could the young lady answer how many
counties or how many weeklies have been notified
about this? And is there anyone from the American
Farm Bureau Federation? I think you're missing
12 a bet. I don't think you really have covered it.
13 I think it's all well and good to say you're
14 going to put it in the Federal Register and some
15 radio stations will be covered by it. But
gentlemen, you're missing the broad base of the
American public, you're not getting it out.
MR. GORDON RAPIER; What is your
18
recommendation, sir?
MR. FRANCIS SATTERLEE: I recommend that
20
21 you, perhaps, set up a similar meeting like this
22 and get a chance to review those outlets where
you sent news releases and perhaps I would suggest
to you, that in an area like this that you would
be certain, make certain that you would cover the
Jo
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1 weeklies in addition to the daily papers. That's
2 where you get to the broad base of the American
s public.
4 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Can we funnel any
5 Of this through the states?
6 MR. FRANCIS SATTERLEE: I'll be glad to
7 help you, I'll be glad to talk to you about it
8 later. That's where you'll get to the public
9 and get public participation if you want it.
10 MR. GORDON RAPIER: We do.
n MR. FRANCIS SATTERLEE: We have people
12 in this room that can attest to the fact, that
13 there have been too many hearings in this part
14 of the country where they say they're going to
15 have a public hearing and they announce it
16 twenty minutes before. That is not how you get
17 public participation.
18 MR. GORDON RAPIER: I agree.
19 MR. FRANCIS SATTERLEE: I think I can
20 help you.
2i MR. GORDON RAPIER: Well, we'd certainly
22 appreciate it. Thank you. Is that it, George?
23 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes.
24 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Thank you, George.
25 Mr. Fred Lindsey, who is Chief of the Implementatioji
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1 Branch of the Hazardous Waste Division of the
2 Solid Waste Management Office in Washington,
is going to talk about Subtitle C of the Act.
This is the Subtitle of the Act that talks about
the hazardous waste management program.
6 MR. FRED LINDSEY: First off I'd like to
7 say that we appreciate your taking your Thursday
evening off to come down here and share your
9 thoughts with us and give us the benefit of your
10 advice on this issue as we start into this major
work effort. Subtitle C of the Act, mandates a
12 regulatory program and the obj ective of which is
j3 to control hazardous wastes from the point of
14 their generation to the ultimate disposal at
15 a permanent facility. This is a very clear
jg mandate.
17 Section 3001 is the first item of importance
10 that we have to deal with. Under this we are to
lo
.„ identify criteria by which we can determine what
is and what is not hazardous waste. We are
mandated to look at such things as toxicity,
22 persistance in the environment, degradability,
23 bio-accumulation and tissue, climability, corrosivenjess
24 and similar properties.
25 After identifying these criteria we're to
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1 identify through testing various types of wastes
2 representative types of wastes which are hazardous
and issue them as a list. We have eighteen
4 months to do this, and eighteen months is the
5 time frame that Congress has given for most of
6 the hazardous waste regulatory provisions within
the Act.
8 The next slide please. Section 3002
9 relates to standards which are mandated to develop
10 for generators. That is for the people who
n generate hazardous waste. This is industrial
12 firms and some others. We're mandated to set
13 up recordkeeping and reporting standards which
14 will include identification of quantities,
15 constituents within waste streams and disposition
16 of wastes at each generation facility.
We must come up with standards for labeling
of containers of waste and perhaps the mandating
19 of the use of certain types of containers or
,0 certain other regulations concerning containers.
21 Also, very importantly, the Act mandates,
22 under this section, that a manifest system be
23 initiated. A manifest system is designed to
24 track wastes, that is track them from the point
25 of generation to the point of disposal. That's
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a cradle to grave approach. The manifest system
will give to the transporter and to the disposer
certain pertinent information on wastes, such
things again, as characteristics and quantity and
so forth. The manifest system is already in
6 use, for those of you that may have come from
7 certain ^.tates where it's already in use in certain
8 states. In those ^tates they take the form of a
9 trip ticket which accompanies the waste on its
10 journey.
11 The next slide, please. Section 3003,
12 mandates certain similar standards for transporters.!
13 Those people that haul waste from the generator
14 to the point of disposal. Again, we're dealing
15 with recordkeeping in which cases the sources and
16 ! delivery points of wastes will have to be recorded
17 and will have to be maintained on that by the
18 transporter and, again, certain labeling provisions
19 will be required. Of course, compliance with the
20 manifest system will also be required. All
21 regulations under this section, will have to be
22 consistent with existing Department of
23 Transportation regulations for transporters of
24 materials.
25 Section 3004, is a very important part of
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1 the Act relative to hazardous waste because it's
2 under this section that we develop standards for
the treatment, storage, and disposal facility
owners and operators. Also, the people who treat,
store and dispose of hazardous waste. It is by
6 such standards that improper disposal techniques
7 will be made illegal. This is a very important
part of the Act.
9 Certain specific areas for developing
10 standards are mandated. Again, recordkeeping,
11 reporting and the manifest system is mandated here.
12 In this case how much material is received by a
13 facility and how it is disposed of will have to
14 be kept.
15 We will be generating standards for
16 monitoring and inspection procedures as hazardous
waste facilities. The reason for this is to
18 determine if a site is polluting or not polluting.
19 We will be generating standards for the
location, design, and construction of such
2i facility. Where they can be put and what design
22 options may be limited or otherwise restricted and
,,3 so forth. Maintenance and operating standards
24 are required and contingency plans are required.
25 What contingency plans typically will consist of
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will be a plan of what to do if something goes
wrong. What the owner is going to do and what
others are going to do. Then there are ownership
4 requirements, standards for ownership which are
5 mandated. These will cover such things as
6 insurance requirements, performance bonds, long
7 term care funds, training requirements, site
closure plans and things of that nature. Also
9 in this section there is a provision which states
~^
10 other standards necessary to protect the public
11 health and the environment. So it's a rather
12 broad mandate mandating certain types of standards
13 and giving very broad power beyond that.
14 The next slide, please. Section 3005
15 sets up a permit system for the same treatment,
16 storage, and disposal facility. Under this section
17 a facility must have a permit to operate before
18 it can operate, treat, store or the disposal of
19 hazardous waste. Now, the permit will be granted
20 based on whether or not the facility either meets
21 or expects to meet, in the case of a new facility,
22 the standards which were developed under that
23 previous section that we discussed under Section 300J4
24 Permit applications will require certain
25 information on waste materials such as the manner
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1 of disposal which is anticipated, the type and
2 amount of wastes which are expected to be received
or are received, the frequency and rate at which
they are treated, stored, or disposed of these
materials and so forth.
6 There will be information required on the
7 site at which this is being done, the hydrogeology
8 and so forth. There also are provisions for the
9 granting of interim permits. To gain an interim
permit a facility will, according to the Act, must
n be in business as of the 21st of October, which
12 was when the Act was passed. They must have
13 notified the state or EPA, whoever is running the
program there, in accordance with Section 3010
15 that I'll talk about in a little bit, and they
16 must have applied for a permit. The reason for
this provision for interim permits is to allow
those facilities which already are in business
18
to operate until their application for a permit
can be acted upon. In any event six months after
20
generation of the standards, under another part
of this act, it will be illegal under this section
to dispose of hazardous waste without a permit.
23
The next slide, please. Section 3006
24
authorizes the state to take over the permitting
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and enforcement part of this Act of the hazardous
waste section. In Washington we will be
promulgating guidelines for the js.tate to assist
4 them in setting up acceptable programs that are
5 in accordance with the federal programs. To be
6 authorized the jtate programs, in accordance with
7 the A:t, must be equivalent to the federal
8 program and consistent with other state programs
9 and must have adequate enforcement provisions.
10 Now, this question of what is equivalent, what's
11 consistent and what's adequate, of course, are
12 the big problems which we're going to face and
13 hopefully some of you may have some comments
14 on that.
15 There's also some provision there for
16 interim authorization for state programs which
17 are in existance now.
18 Next slide, please. One of the provisions
19 of the Act requires that any generators,
20 transporters, tr/lters, stores or disposers of
21 hazardous waste must notify EPA within three
22 months after promulgation of the standards for
23 identification of hazardous waste. That is
24 three months after we identify what is and what
25 is not hazardous waste and the criteria for that.
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i Then the generators, transporters, treaters,
2 storers and disposers have to notifv EPA. Now,
'> we've set up a system to do that and one of the
4 problems, which one of the gentlemen mentioned
5 a little bit earlier faces us here. How do
6 we best notify and get to these people so that
7 they realize they have to do this. Any help
8 or comments on that would be appreciated by us.
9 What kinds of mechanisms can we use?
10 Next slide, please. Under Section 3011
H there will be a grant' 3011 is a grant program
12 to the state agencies to assist them in
13 developing and implementing jtate programs that
14 take over this Act. Now, 25 million dollars
15 has been authorized in the Act to do this but
16 that has not been appropriated at this point and
17 there is some question as to this. I think
18 George is going to speak to this later, are you
19 not?
20 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes.
21 MR. FRED LINDS&f: Okay. That's the
22 hazardous waste provisions of the Act in brief.
23 We are interested In your thoughts particularly
24 on the issues. Gordon, have the issues, have
25 they been sent around yet? Okay, they haven't
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1 been sent around yet. Are they included in the
2 back of the room?
3 MR. CORDON RAPIER: No.
4 MR. FRET) LINDS/Y: Some of the issues
5 which Gordon read off earlier, we would appreciate
6 your comments on and vour guidance on as we go
7 through this process, which will be taking quite
g a bit of time, we'll be getting to you in that
9 sense. So we're here to receive such input as
10 you might have and to answer whatever questions
11 you might have.
12 UNIDENTIFIED: As a Virginia manufacturer
13 and one that's already involved in the Virginia
H Toxic Substances law, if you put toxic substances
15 as part of the definition of hazardous waste,
16 how can you possibly avoid the duplication of
JY governmental control?
18 MR. FRED LINDS,AY: You're referring to the
19 Toxic Substances Act?
20 UNIDENTIFIED: Yes.
21 MR. FRED LTNDSAV: The Toxic Substances
22 Act is primarily oriented as a front-end act.
23 It does not necessarily deal directly with the
24 disposal of hazardous waste which is what this
25 act primarily is responsible for. However, as
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1 In much federal legislation, you're right, there
2 is some potential for some overlapping here and
;J we' re one agency and we' re working together to
4 try to preclude any overlapping so that there
5 will be one set of provisions that apply.
6 UNIDENTIFIED: By definition you have
7 already built some into it unless you do make
8 a specific provision not to. I mean, that the
9 State of Virginia is having trouble promulgating
10 or formulating a list of proper toxic substances
11 already and the manufacturers are quite involved
12 in that. The description of that and the
13 description of this are quite different.
14 MR. FRED LINDSAY: You mean the criteria
15 for a hazardous waste?
16 UNIDENTIFIED: No, the broad scope.
17 MR. FRED LINDSJ&: We are working with
18 the Office of Toxic Substances in identifying
19 the difference. The Office of Toxic Substances
20 will be coming up with, I think, with what are
21 identifications of toxic substances. Waste
22 on the other hand, particularly hazardous waste,
23 tend to be a combination of materials.
24 UNIDENTIFIED: Do toxic substances become
25 hazardous waste?
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1 MR. FRED LINDSAY: They could become
2 hazardous waste. We will be identifying criteria
3 under which a decision could be made on any given
4 case on what is hazardous and what is not. These
5 criteria will be specific properties of that
6 waste material. Does that help you?
7 UNIDENTIFIED: Yes.
8 MR. LEONARD VANCE: Let me speak to that,
9 my name is Leonard Vance.
10 MR. FRED LINDSAY: I may not know what
n the state is doing.
12 MR. LEONARD VANCE: The State of Virginia
13 has its own Toxic Substances Information Act which
14 is an Act that collects and catalogs information
15 concerning toxic substances which is separate
16 from the Toxic Substance Control Act at the federal
17 level. This gentleman is speaking to the
is Virginia Toxic Substance Information Act. We
19 have not seen the regulations to be promulgated
20 under the Toxic Control Act yet. So we really
21 have no idea how the Virginia Toxic Substances
22 Information Act will integrate in with the Toxic
23 Substances Control Act. But we see overlapping
24 between both statutes in the hazardous waste
25 section of this statute.
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UNIDENTIFIED: But we have to deal with
both as manufacturers. That's what I'm trying
to avoid.
MR. LEONARD VANCE: Well, the Virginia
5 Toxic Substances Information Act is undergoing
6 modifications in the Virginia General Assembly
7 right now. In fact the subcommittee met on
8 this this morning and one of the specific
9 requirements of the Toxic Substances Information
10 Act, one of the requirements, is that the
11 duplication be eliminated between state and
12 federal statutes to the extent possible and a
13 number of the most objectionable portions of
14 the statute have been eliminated.
MR. FRED LINDS>KY: Any other questions
16 related to this?
MR. WILLIAM MEYER: One thing, when you
speak about hazardous waste, I'm wondering how
this is going to or how you're going to deal
„« with this and with zoning in any particular
21 municipality, with locations? Because, the
minute you say hazardous waste then the next day
93 there's a special act in that particular
24 jurisdiction and it's outlawed. We've had that
25 in Virginia.
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1 MR. FRED LINDS)&: You know, that's a
2 very good issue.
MR. WILLIAM MEYER: How do you deal
4 with it?
5 MR. FRED LINDSAY: It's a tough issue.
6 The problem is that we can identify and the
7 states can identify hazardous waste and we
"^
can identify what are proper or what the
9 are and the facilities and what are proper
10 facilities and what they should have under
n Section 3004 and what regulations should apply
12 to them so that we can insure that they're good
13 facilities ' Safe facilities. But the point
14 is well taken. The siting of such facilities,
15 even acceptable facilities, well run, well
16 designed, well located facilities is a very
difficult problem. I don't know exactly how
lg that's going to be handled. There are a number
lg of facilities in existence already that we feel
are acceptable in various parts of the country,
21 But as the volume of materials, which enter
22 into this system increase,, that is as we start
to get a handle on where they are and insist that
they go to proper facilities, there's going to
25 be a need for more of them, The question is, how
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1 do we overcome what amounts to local opposition
2 is a good question. I'd like to have any
comments or any suggestions you might have on
4 that.
5 UNIDENTIFIED: Will a separate permit
6 be required for hazardous waste versus just solid
waste?
%
8 MR. FRED LINDSX?: There is no permit
9 system under the federal act for straight solid
10 waste. The only time you need a permit is to
11 treat, store or dispose of those wastes which
12 fall under the hazardous category.
13 UNIDENTIFIED: So they have to have a
14 permit directly from EPA?
15 MR. FRED LINDS^fr: Or from the jstate if
the state takes over the program, which we hope
17 all states will do.
18 UNIDENTIFIED: Speaking for the smaller
lg counties, one of the reasons that we're in the
... landfill business is because of the economics
20
21 of the thing. When you write your guidelines
22 we would like to request that when you do this
that you keep in mind that you're not only talking
24 to the chemical engineer but you're talking to
25 the operator of the landfill as well.
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^
1 MR. FRED LIND§AY: Okay. You're
2 speaking for hazardous waste now or for, for
hazardous waste or for regular?
UNIDENTIFIED: For hazardous waste.
MR. FRED LINDSJ&: All right. Your point
6 is well made, we'll consider it. We have not
7 gotten to it yet but we'll consider it,
8 UNIDENTIFIED: When you've got all these
9 substances, of course, you have to identify them
10 and if you, if you get these manufacturers
u that are creating these substances and they send
12 it to a landfill and if you don't have somebody
13 there to test it and to evaluate these substances
14 then essentially you could be burying it and
15 not be knowledgeable of the fact that you were
16 or what you were burying.
MR. FRED LINDSAY: Right. As I went
17
through this and maybe I didn't make it too clear,
18
but Congress has kind of addressed that issue
to some extent because the generater has to, or
21 at least we have to, in EPA, come up with this
22 manifest system. On the manifest system Congress
kind of requires that there be certain information
„. relative to the waste included on that manifest
25 by the generater, Which will include the
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characteristics of the waste such as the
constituents and the quantity and that sort of
thing. That will help.
UNIDENTIFIED: Similar to what California
has?
MR. FRED LINDS$ft: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED: California under this
manifest system, this is a problem that the _state
9 of California has had ever since they got into
10 this program, almost identical to what you're
n going through right now. That is the fact of
12 getting the manufacturers to identify the substances
13 that's in, that's in this or that's listed as
14 hazardous waste material or the toxic substances
15 have been combined to create hazardous waste.
16 MR. FRED LINDS^t: We're interested in
17 input and comments and your viewpoints on how
18 stringent and how much detail, in how much
lg detail, I guess that's a better term, should the
generator be required to identify what is in the
21 waste. In other words, on a trip ticket or
22 manifest. Questions of that type. We're
23 interested in this, in all this input and your
24 viewpoints and just what, we're just interested
25 in getting input on that. From your viewpoint
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how much is practical to put on a trip ticket
and that sort of thing. Things of this nature.
These are the questions we're facing and we're
going to be facing for the next number of months.
UNIDENTIFIED: How about the disposal
of sludge of a municipal sewage treatment plant
7 that allows industrial waste into the plant?
8 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Will that be
9 considered a hazardous waste, is that your
10 question?
n UNIDENTIFIED: How would the operator
12 of the landfill identify it?
13 MR. FRED LINDSAY: It's up to the
14 generator of a waste material, under this Act,
15 to determine whether or not his waste is
hazardous. And then if it is he must see to
it that it gets from his place to a permanent
lg facility. Then he has to identify what is in
lg the waste at the same time. The question is,
to much of a degree he identifies it is something
21 that we have to put together, that's why we have
22 to have standards and regulations. That's what
23 we have to have those for.
24 The question, I think, the question that
25 goes along with this and maybe I ought to mention it
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1 relative to sewage sludge, is whether or not
2 sewage sludge will be a hazardous waste will
3 depend in each individual circumstance on whether
4 the sewage sludge fails the criteria that we have
5 to set up for, whether it's a hazardous waste.
6 It could be conceivable that some would and some
7 wouldn't. I just can't predict that at this
point because we have not developed that criteria.
9 UNIDENTIFIED: There's such a wide
10 variance of sludge you could test one shipment
n of sludge and it would test out to be one thing
12 and then when you say in order, in order to
13 identify sludge you actually have to test each
14 load chemically before you --
15 MR. LINDSA^f: — I suppose that conceivably
16 could be the case unless the operator of the
facility was reasonably sure or wanted to take
lg it to a permanent facility every time, that
could be conceivable and that could be an option
19
„- he would have, I suppose.
20
21 Could we get back to mentioning our names,
22 suppose we should be mentioning names here.
MR. LARRY LAWSON; Under 92-500, the
24 Water Act, there was a provision that you had
25
to identify toxic substances within about
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i eighteen months.
2 MR. FRED LINDSXY: That's right.
3 MR. LARRY LAWSON: You finally complied
4 after about five years, under court decree. Do
5 you envision being able to identify hazardous
6 substances or wastes within eighteen months
7 authorized here?
MR. FRED LINDS.AY: We're going to do
9 our best.
10 MR. LARRY LAWSON: I know it's a real
problem.
12 MR. FRED LINDSAY: We're going to do
13 the best we can to meet the deadlines which are
14 in the Act. Your question says, are you going
to do the best we can, It's far too soon to
lb
15 to meet the deadline, and as I said, we're going
be able to tell for certain what day we're going
to promulgate certain things. What day. But
18
again, we're promulgating criteria here and then
a list of typical materials that will be tested
20
21 under those criteria.
MR. LARRY LAWSON: Do you envision
putting concentrations on them or just listing
Zo
hazardous materials?
24 £
MR. FRED LINDSXY: Well, now that's --
25
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1 we have to come up with the criteria, we'll do both.
2 We'll come up with criteria, for instance, toxicity.
Some level of toxicity, probably. Explosivity,
flammability, and there will be certain tests,
of course, which we'll have to identify. And,
6 around which one will determine whether or not
7 a waste passes or fails these criteria. Then a
list will be developed for those criteria. But
9 it will be the criteria that will determine whether
10 or not the wastes are hazardous. Does that
u help you? Concentrations is a factor. We'll
12 be dealing with the waste material itself and
13 whatever concentrations it has of materials within
14 it.
15 MR. MICHAEL DIEM: Once you come up with
16 this list of hazardous materials, when this comes
17 about are you going to use this as an assistance
]8 to yourself to lead to the Toxic Substances Control
19 Act, they've got to come up with a list earlier
20 than yours. So I was wondering if you're going
21 to examine what those folks are coming up with
22 on that side of the house?
23 MR. FRED LINDSAY: We're in touch with
24 them constantly. Because, as a gentleman pointed
25 out earlier, they are somewhat similar and they
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i were passed at roughly the same time. We do have
2 here, an opportunity to coordinate these two Acts
and their separate provisions. Yes, we'll be in
touch with them on that and try to coordinate it
the best we can. Any other questions?
NOTE: No response.
8
9 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Thank you, Fred. I
10 think you can see that our planning for the Act
11 is still in a natants state. The Act was passed
12 last October and there are many, many of these
13 initiatives from the Act that have eighteen months
14 deadline on them. We're working very hard to
15 keep them but we are, as an agency, now trying to
16 get opinions of the public in various groups, we
want opinions from different groups and various
lg groups because we think they will be very, very
19 valuable, in trying to make the Act, the regulation!
2Q the guidelines, the standards and the criterias
2i as viable as we possibly can.
22 Fred talked about Subtitle C of the Act,
23 the Hazardous Waste Management Program. The next
24 subtitle of the Act, a very significant one, is
25 Subtitle D. That talks about the nonhazardous
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1 solid waste program. George Garland is going
2 to enlighten us on that.
3 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: The Resource
4 Conservation and Recovery Act, to a large extent,
5 closes the loop. We have a Clean Air Act, we
6 have a Federal Water Pollution Control Act and
7 now we have an Act which deals with land disposal
8 in a very broad way. The definitions included
9 in the Act are different from the definitions in
10 previous versions of this solid waste act. For
n example, the disposal means the discharge, deposit,
12 injection and dumping, spilling, leaking or placing
13 of any solid waste or hazardous waste into or on
14 any land or water so that such solid waste or
15 hazardous waste or any constituents thereof, may
l@ enter the environment or be admitted into the air
17 or discharged into any waters including groundwater.
lg That's pretty comprehensive.
19 The term open dump and the term sanitary
„,, landfill describes the universal land disposal
21 practice. So that something is either an open
22 dump or it is a sanitary landfill and the way to
23 distinguish one from the other, is by using the
24 criteria that will be promulgated under Section 4004
25 an(j I'll talk about that in a minute.
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I've talked about the definition of what
we mean by disposal. The term solid waste means
any garbage, refuse, sludge from a wastewater
4 treatment plant, water supply treatment plant,
5 or air pollution control facility and other
6 discarded material, including solids, liquid,
7 semisolid, or contained gaseous material resulting
from industrial, commercial, mining, and agricultural
8
operations, and from community activities, but
does not include solid or dissolved material in
domestic sewage, or solid or dissolved materials
in irrigation return flows or industrial discharges
•which are point sources subject to permits under
lo
Section 402 of the Federal Water Pollution Control
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
for sanitary landfills. These are to be issued
within one year, and contain criteria and
classifications for sanitary landfills and open
23
dumps. A sanitary landfill is something which
24
has no unreasonable probability of having an
25
Act, as amended, or source, special nuclear, or
byproduct material as defined by the Atomic
Energy Act of 1954, as amended. So the solid
waste definition again, is very broad.
May I have the next slide. As I said,
Section 4004 calls for us to promulgate criteria
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1 adverse effect or conversely an open dump Is
2 something that has a reasonable probability of
having an adverse effect. Now, the Act does
•1 not define unreasonable probability and it does
5 not define adverse effect. However, I'll get
6 into that a little later in Section 1008. We
7 had some idea about the kinds of things that
8 Congress had in mind for the criteria,
9 Now, when a s£ate publishes a j_tate plan
w it is supposed to include a program for preventing
n future open dumps in the jtate or conversely a
12 program to make sure all land disposal facilities
13 in the state, are sanitary landfills, and this
14 provision takes effect within six months of the
15 publication of the criteria or when the state plan
lg is adopted, whichever comes later.
The next slide, please. Section 4005
of the Act, calls for an inventory of open dumps,
18
This inventory is to take place within twelve
months of the publication of the criteria which
20
you use to identify what an open dump is. EPA
will then publish a list of open dumps and these
£i£,
open dumps must be closed immediately upon
publication of the inventory if a suitable
alternative such as land disposal or resource
2.D
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1 recovery exists. If no such suitable alternative
2 exists and the^tate is planning, in compliance
with our criteria for ^tate planning, then the
state can agree to a compliance schedule for each
of the open dumps in the state. That compliance
6 schedule is to consist of an enforceable sequence
7 of actions to be published in the state plan. At
a maximum the schedule can take five years after
9 the list of open dumps is published to achieve
10 either upgrading or closing the site.
11 Next slide, please. Now, in a related
12 provision in Section 1008. EPA is called on to
13 issue guidelines within twelve months which
14 contain technical descriptions, economic and levels
15 of performance data on various solid waste
16 management practices to protect the public health
17 and the environment.
18 Next slide, please. Within twelve months,
I9 I'm sorry, within twenty-four months we're to
publish guidelines which give levels of performance
21 and levels of control, The first set of guidelines
22 just describe the technical and economic
23 performance characteristics of various practices.
24 The second set begins to state what we think is
25 appropriate and the kinds of things that are
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mentioned in the Act, include the protection of
ground and surface waters. Here we have a
specific mention of groundwater protection in the
4 Act and it occurs in a great many places in the
5 Act.
6 Okay. Now, the kinds of things that the
Act refers to includes minimum protection of the
public health and welfare; protection of the
9 quality of groundwaters and surface waters from
10 leachates; protection of the quality of surface
waters from runoff through compliance with
12 effluent limitations under the Federal Water
13 Pollution Control Act, as amended; protection
14 of ambient air quality through compliance with
15 new source performance standards or requirements
ie of air quality implementation plans under the
17 Clean Air Act, as amended; disease and vector
18 control; safety; and esthetics. All of these
are, will be included in the criteria, I would
2Q think, that are published under Section 4004 as
21 items that must be considered when distinguishing
22 an open dump from a sanitary landfill. The
23 relationship between the guidelines in most criteria
24 are, as we interpret it right noWjand we're
25 obviously prepared to receive your comments on this,
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1 is that the criteria will raise various issues.
2 Such as the groundwater protection issue and the
guidelines will give various ways of dealing
4 with those issues. Now, the guidelines are
5 meant to be descriptive and not prescriptive.
6 That means that they will describe various
7 groundwater policies which EPA has found to be
satisfactory in protecting groundwater. The state
9 will then be free to select one of these policies
10 or come up with a policy which they feel makes
more sense. This Act may seem like kind of a
12 marshmellow but in fact, it raises the groundwater
13 issue and brings it out into the open and this is
14 the first time that this issue may have to be
15 dealt with in a public way.
16 The next slide, please. The last part
of Section 1008 calls for criteria for identifying
open dumps. When the House and the Senate get
together to write a bill, sometimes the language
„,, overlaps. In this case the Senate wrote the
21 language in 1008 calling for criteria for open
22 dumps. The House wrote the language in 4004
calling for the criteria for sanitary landfills.
24 I have received agreements from the House and the
25 Senate that they both mean the same criteria and
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that the criteria for open dumps and sanitary
landfills is what will be published. It will
be one set of criteria published for both. One
is the opposite of the other.
5 Now, in these guidelines we have to make
6 a decision about what kind of guidelines we're
7 going to publish. The Act does not say anything
about what to publish guidelines on in particular.
9 We have chosen at this time, to focus on updating
10 the land disposal guidelines that we have already
published. We plan to promulgate guidelines on
12 slude disposal because sludge is now a specifically
13 mentioned part of the solid waste stream.
14 Those are my remarks. Are there any
15 questions about land protection?
16 MR. LARRY LAWSON: My name is Larry Lawson.
17 My understanding from what you said, that there
,„ is no requirement to have a permit for a solid
19 waste disposal site or an open dump? You said
the way the law is envisioned, is that correct?
21 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: There's no requirement
22 for a federal permit. Now, there is a requirement
that the j,tates come up with a program which will
24 assure that no new open dumps are created after
25 some period of time, after the criteria are
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1 published. If the state — one way the state
2 can meet that is by having a permit program.
:i There may be other ways though.
4 MR. LARRY LAWSON: Suppose the state
^'
5 decides not to participate with you all and
6 develop that plan? What happens then?
7 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: All right. Section
7002, which I referred to earlier, the citizens
9 suit provision, then gives the public its recourse.
10 If the Environmental Protection Agency has
published a list of open dumps and the Resource
12 Conservation and Recovery Act says that those
13 open dumps are illegal it would seem to me to be
14 a simple matter for the aggrieved party to take
15 that list into federal court and say, I want all
,R of those closed tomorrow. Now, if the state is
ID ' _.:
in fact planning, under the act, they will have
17
a five-year grace period for all of those open
18
dumps. Assuming that they do not have immediate
available alternatives. If they don't plan under
21 the act then it's up to the federal judge to
decide what to do. In the past we have dealt
with lower level courts. If a court has limited
jurisdiction and one county has a bad site and the
county next door has a good site and the judge may
Jo
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be reluctant to incur the wrath of the citizenry
by saying, take your waste to the other county.
Because, after all, nobody wants to get somebody
else's garbage. But if it's a federal judge
•^
he may be less sensitive to some of these local
6 issues. What I'm saying is that that is probably
7 the major reason for ^tates to participate.
MR. LARRY LAWSON : What you're really
9 saying is that the Act is going to force the spates
to come up and participate whether they like it
or not in order to protect themselves?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Well, the people
that would be sued are the disposal site owners
and operators. That would maybe be the counties
cities. Those people will have a great interest
16
or it may be private individuals or it may be
in seeing that the ^tates do plan and they
17 ^
will probably have some effect on the governor.
18 -^>
That I don't know, though. Am I being too
19
aggressive in the way that I interpret this Act?
20
MR ROWLAND DORER: I think there's one
21
other point, that if the state does not participate
22 $
then they are not qualified to get any of the
23
federal grants. I think that's another angle,
24 ^
Am I right on that?
25
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1 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes. Understand
2 that I've just come from working under the
Republicans for about eight years. I'm used to
getting very small appropriations so it's not
clear to me that the amount of money that is
6 appropriated is going to be a great incentive,
7 But you're absolutely right and it's possible
that the appropriations in the future will be
such that people will be keenly concerned with
that kind of provision.
n MR. CARROLL SAWYER: How do you envision
12 closing an open dump? Putting a fence around it
13 or transferring it to a sanitary landfill?
14 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: We have a couple
15 of publications. We had a demonstration in
16 Arkansas, where an open dump was closed and the
procedures used there were written up in an
article. Basically you just can't walk away
18
from it. The title of the article is Don't Walk
Away from an Open Dump. You really can't do that
because if you do one item is that you don't have
any more food for the rats and the rats migrate
to the nearest source of food. Sometimes they
23
eat people. So you have to be careful that you've
got to kill off all the rats there, The strange
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i thing is that if you continue feeding them by
2 putting more solid waste there, they will stay
•• there. But if you don't they will not. Another
4 issue and much more difficult issue is, what do
5 you do with dumps which are contaminating the
6 groundwater?
7 In Delaware there is a dump that's been
8 closed since 1968. In 19JB2 it was discovered
9 that leachates were coming from the dump and it
10 was contaminating wells and it did contaminate
H the well of a lady that lived across the street
12 and up on a bluff. It was about a thousand feet
13 away. Her well was driven down one hundred and
14 thirty feet into the Potomac aquifer. The
15 leachates had traveled quite a ways. The county
16 is still trying to determine what to do about it
17 to correct it permanently. They've had a counter
18 pumping program where they've sunk wells near the
19 site and pumped the water there to keep the
20 leachates from spreading. The stuff they've been
21 pumping out goes into the Delaware River by way
22 of a creek. So the consultants they've hired
23 have come up with various alternatives. You might
24 just think you could cap it over and keep future
25 rainfall from getting to the site and that would
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i be the cheapest option open. In this case,
2 however, the site was so poorly located that the
groundwater flows right through the site. If you
capped it off that would not help you.
I'm sort of rambling on here, but the
a groundwater protection issue from open dumps
7 can really be a thorny issue.
MR. RICHARD HAMILTON: Do you have a
tentative, when you mentioned open dumps, how
big or how small are you talking about? Are
you talking about roadside dumps or just what
size are you talking about? What are you going
13 to use for a definition?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: When I read over
15 the definition of disposal and the definition
16 of solid waste I just about painted a picture of,
you just throw a gum wrapper on the street and
that's covered, depending on how they interpret
lo
those definitions. We're going to have to be
very careful in limiting those definitions so
20
that we get to go after those practices which are
harmful and don't get bogged down with or in
dealing with a lot of practices that are marginal.
Now, as time goes on and as we get smarter this
24
definition of marginal may change. But we're
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1 keenly aware of the need to limit that definition.
2 MR. RICHARD HAMILTON: You could not
rid the roadside dumps in Virginia in twelve
years much less in twelve months.
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: We call that
promiscuous dumping and were against promiscuity
in Washington. Generally those are not included
but they would be included in the inventory.
MR. JIM FARRELL: Why don't you
concentrate on defining an open dump or defining
u the landfill and the other is left.
12 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Right, that's what
13 we intend to do.
14 MR. JIM FARRELL: If you go that route
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: It's our intention
16
15 which one are you going to define?
to define the open dump. It's better, in our
17
view, to tell people what's wrong rather than
18
dictating to them what they must do, That gives
them more latitude in coming up with ways to
20
meet the requirements of the Act.
MR. DON BOWMAN: Could you comment on
22
how you're going to rationalize the difference
Zu
between this Act and 92-500, particularly
24
between the states planning under this act or the
25
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regional planning under this act and the 208?
Bear in mind that the 208 has responsibility to
plan for the disposal of all residual in or on
the land which could affect water quality?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: In order to give
myself about twenty minutes to think of the answer,
I'll tell you that when I do my talk, a little
later, on state programs I will deal with the
9 interface between 208 and 92-500 and the planning
10 provisions —
u MR. DON BOWMAN: Let me ask you this, if
you approach your problem of definitions by
defining open dump, do you propose to do so in
terms of performance standards, the performance
15 standard approach?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes.
Ifa
MR, DON BOWMAN; So that if we were
17
looking at it another way, a sanitary landfill,
18
what is a sanitary landfill depends on the kind
of materials being deposited therein plus a
20
variety of other factors?
MR, GEORGE GARLAND: Yes.
22
MR, DON BOWMAN: The point being that a
23
local community that has a full fledged sanitary
24
landfill that might be what they would define as a
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1 sanitary landfill, would sure hate to have to
2 use up very precious capability for some burial
-> demolition debris and things of that sort. So
4 unless your definition approach recognizes the
5 different materials that may safely be disposed
6 of with different levels and different controls
7 on them, I think we're going to be in some trouble.
8 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: We're not intending
9 to do a definition of a sanitary landfill that
10 says, put everything into it and cover it with
11 some earth and that sort of thing. But rather,
12 we do intend to use the performance standard
13 approach which would allow for different kinds
14 of landfills for different kinds of materials.
15 Okay?
16 MR. GORDON RAPIER: George will be up
17 one more time. The gentleman asked how do you
lg plan to close an open dump? George responded
19 and said, we had a demonstration in Arkansas. I
20 don't want to leave these people with the
21 impression that the way the Environmental
22 Protection Agency causes compliance is to cordon
23 off the place and have people march around and
24 demonstrate. It was a project.
25 There's two major thrusts to the Act as I
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envision it. One, is to control explicitly those
activities that create environmental degradation,
3 You've been hearing some of the highlights and
4 some of the major portions of the Act concerned
5 with those activities. There's another significant
6 objective of the Act, I think. That is the
7 conservation and recovery resource. Steve Lingle,
Chief of the Technical and Market Branch of the
9 Resource Recovery Division is going to talk about
10 that.
n MR. STEVE LINGLE: Thank you, Gordon.
12 You can hold the slides for just a second. Let
13 roe sort of pick up on what you said there because
14 1 think, interestingly resource recovery and
15 conservation activities can be looked at not only
16 as a means of conserving resources but as a means
of environmental protection and control. In fact
if you're going to regulate and control disposal
19 processes and if you're going to close down open
20 dumps clearly resource recovery provides an
21 alternative practice to that. So really, the
22 resource recovery activities and the regulatory
23 disposal provision of the Act, I think, tie in
24 very nicely together. That's because resource
25 recovery provides an alternative. On the other
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14
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
2;(
24
hand the regulations of land disposal provides
a nice incentive for resource recovery and
conservation.
Let me have the slide, please. The
resource recovery provisions of the Act are sort
of spread out in a number of different sections
of the Act. This is an overview of some of
those sections and this is a list of those sections j
which provide for resource recovery activities but
for which resource recovery is not necessarily
the only activity listed. I'll just make a
couple of comments about these and then I'll
discuss those activities which are expressly
resource recovery type activity and which are |
probably going to be the major thrust. j
i
The guidelines are called for in Section 100J3
of the Pet and it's possible to write guidelines j
in a number of subsections, resource recovery being
one of them. The reason the guidelines are ,
important is because there's another section ;
of the Act, 6004, which says that the federal
agencies must comply with those guidelines, and !
i
so they become, in essence, required regulations I
for federal agencies. ]
About a year ago, under our former :
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1 legislation, we wrote three guidelines that we
2 think are very important for resource recovery
and conservation. One of them calls for
separation of paper for recycling in federal
buildings and on federal establishments. Another
6 one was the requirement for federal agencies to
7 take waste to a central processing plant for
8 recovery of materials and energy when they have
9 a sufficient quantity of waste. The third
10 guideline required federal agencies to place a
deposit on beverage containers sold on federal
12 establishments so that those containers could be
13 returned for recycling. That's all down under
14 the old act but under the new Act we're going to
15 be working with federal agencies on implementation
of those guidelines.
The resource conservation and recovery
i /
... panel is, as the name indicates, is a technical
lo
assistance type of program. The program is
the technical assistance type program and it's
21 broad in nature and it applies to the technical
22 assistance on both traditional land disposal and
collection type practices as well as hazardous
24 waste practices and also on resource recovery
25 and conservation. I'll talk more about that in
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i a few minutes because we view that as one of
2 our major activities in resource recovery.
The third activity there, the development
4 of state and local programs, you'll hear more
5 about that in a few minutes when George Garland
speaks again on that program. One of the major
thrusts in this program really involves Subtitle D,
g that involves the definition of sanitary landfills
9 and open dumps. It sets forth criteria for the
10 development and implementation of the ^_tate plan
n but the section clearly indicates that resource
recovery is to be looked at as an alternative to
13 the traditional disposal practices. So certain
kinds of guidelines will be issued to states
16 resource recovery.
15 under that section of the Act, that deal with
resource
So why don't we, I think I'll touch on
the other activities one way or the other, as we
18
go on. So why don't we go on to the next slide.
There's one section of the Act that calls very
20 ;
explicitly for certain kinds of activities in
resource recovery. That section is 6002, In
22
essence what this ^ection says, is that all
federal agencies within two years of the passage
of the Act must start to, each procuring agency
25
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l shall procure items composed of the highest
2 percentage of recovered materials practicable
consistent with maintaining a satisfactory level
4 of competition. It states that these agencies
5 must procure products containing the maximum
6 amount of recycled contents which is practicable.
7 It says a similar thing regarding energy. It says,
instead of using fossil fuels they should use
9 solid waste when possible and practicable. It
10 furthermore says that they must review their
specifications and in any case where those
12 specifications discriminate against recycled
13 materials, by prohibiting them for example, they
14 must change those specifications.
15 Now, EPA, these are guidelines and these
16 are directives to all federal agencies , EPA is
required to write guidelines under these sections
to help federal agencies to comply with these
18 •?>
requirements. So in essence we would write
guidelines that would define possible products
21 that can be purchased which contained recycled
to be and that sort of thing. I think the
•iO
importance of this section is not necessarily
in the federal activities of this type because the
25
materials, what the supply of those are likely
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14
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
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^federal government, believe it or not, does not
procure all that much of any one type product.
Generally less than two percent of any product
that you can imagine is purchased by the federal
government.
However, the states and the local government
and industry, if they will adopt similar practices
then there's a good potential for a significant
market creation effect for recycled materials. I
There are a number of special studies
called for in the Act in Section 8002 that deal
with resource recovery. I'm not going to dwell
on them. Most of them are areas that we've studied
to greater and lesser degrees in the past. One
difference is that we are specifically asked to
submit recommendations to Congress in about two
years telling them what we've found and making any
legislative recommendations.
I also want to draw your attention to the
fact that there's a study required on small scale
low technology systems and another study required
on front end source separation. I think this
indicates that, as well as other provisions of the
Act, a growing awareness by Congress of the need
for small and rural communities to be able to
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1 utilize resource recovery techniques. We already
2 have some programs and particularly in source
separation that tend to fit this need. However,
4 I think this shows a new emphasis in this area,
5 The Act calls for, under a special study
6 provision, for a specific study which really is
7 very different from any of the others. It's
8 called the Resource Conservation Committee. It's
9 different because it's considered much more
10 significant than the others. This deals with
11 the age-old problem that everybody recognizes or
12 has, for quite a long time. That the recycling
!3 seems or tends to compete in an unfavorable
14 economic environment with virgin resources.
15 Congress stopped short in this Act over the
l@ passage of any specific provision in terms of
17 incentives or disincentives or regulations that
lg would directly increase the use of recycled
lg materials. But they did mandate a very high
20 level study. This Resource Conservation
21 Committee. The members of that committee are
22 cabinet-level people. Like the Secretary of
23 Labor, Secretary of Interior, Secretary of
24 Commerce, the Treasury, a representative of OMB
25 and it's chaired by EPA. I think it's important
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to note that Congress is very serious about the
recommendations that are going to come out of
this committee. The charter is very broad and
the committee is asked to study a variety of
incentives such as subsidy and the disincentives
such as the removal of subsidies. Also, looking
at the existing public policies such as existing
virgin material subsidies. It actually even
9 asks them to look at the possible regulations
10 that might restrict manufacturers' use. It asks
n for a very thorough analysis of a new concept
12 called product charge. Product charge is sort
13 of, well, it's a charge levied at the point of
14 manufacture which is equal to the disposal cost
15 of the product. Some people call it prepaid
disposal. But since there would be credit given
17 for products made from recycled materials it also
lg acts as a very strong incentive for subsidies.
It in essence is a statement of taking into
20 account the so-called economic externality in
21 the manufacture of the product. That externality
being the cost of disposing of it. Recommendations
23 are due to Congress in two years or by October,
24 1978. We look on this as a real opportunity to
25 recommend some good incentives to Congress.
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l The next slide, please. Section 8005
2 of the Act, calls for a provision, for a broad
range of authority and actually I don't want to
talk about 8005. I want to talk about Sections
8004 and 8006. The reasons are that the
provisions of 8005 are actually listed elsewhere.
For example, you can see here that disposal
charges and incentive for public policy authority
9 is given but that's also included in the
10 conservation committee that I just described.
11 Demonstration authority is also provided but that's
12 also provided elsewhere.
13 Let me state the significance of 8004
14 and 8006 provisions. Both of those provisions
15 provide authority for demonstrations of full scale
16 resource recovery systems. They provide federal
17 funding up to 75 percent of the total cost of
18 those facilities. This is an activity similar
19 to that which has been carried out in the past,
20 it's been carried out as demonstration programs
21 under previous legislation. Also, 8004 provides
22 authority to evaluate existing commercial resource
23 recovery systems. The City of Richmond built their
24 own resource recovery plant with their own money.
25 This suggests that the federal government hire an
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1 independent contractor and evaluate the performance
2 of such a facility so that other communities
can be informed on its performance capability.
4 I might say that the fact that the authority
5 for demonstrations is given does not necessarily
6 mean that there will be much of any funding to
carry them out because they are very costly in
regards to the resource recovery system.
9 Now we're back to the resource conservation
10 or resource recovery conservation panel. As I
11 said before this is sort of an acronym for a
12 technical assistance activity. In the
13 deliberations of Congress and the terms of the
14 provision of the Act, there were general concensus
15 that one of the most significant ways that the
16 federal government could encourage the implementatiojn
t>
of resource recovery was to provide technical
18 assistance as opposed to direct subsidies for
19 example. They wanted to emphasize the technical
20 assistance capabilities so they gave it a special
21 name. They called it a panel and they required
22 that a minimum of 20 percent of the general
23 authorization for the Act be spent on this type
24 of activity. The activity provides TA for a
25 broad range of purposes and a broad range of
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1 audiences. It is not only for resource recovery
2 but it is also for or also includes hazardous
waste management, division of solid waste disposal.
It suggests that there will be technical
assistance teams and again, basically there
6 should be a broad range of expertise provided
7 ranging from technical expertise, financial and
marketing and institutional expertise. The team
9 can be composed of EPA personnel either at
10 headquarters or regional personnel or state and
local officials. Hired by the federal government
12 and provided in essence, free of charge to the
13 cities. But I want to emphasize that the
14 activities of such consultants are different from
15 the activities which a consultant under contract
16 to a city might carry out. In other words this
17 is not an attempt to put the private consulting
18 industry out of business. They're different in
the kind of activity they can perform.
There's something called peer matching
2i which means that if the public works director
22 in Richmond has implemented a resource recovery
,,3 system and has learned how to do that he can
24 be paid to go to other cities and describe his
25 experiences and work with them on that activity.
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1 We look at this as an important provision of the
2 Act for resource recovery.
The next slide, please. In essence the
4 Subtitle B of the Act, the state planning provision
5 suggests that these panels be used to work with the ]
6 states in developing the plan and the state and
*•' ~*
7 local governments. That's about all that said.
Just to recap briefly, I think the major
9 provisions of the Act in the resource recovery
10 area, is the technical assistance panel, the
cabinet level committee to study incentives for
12 resource recovery, the demonstration evaluation
13 provisions that are provided for, and the federal
14 procurement requirements can also be significant,
15 particularly if they're adopted by the state and
16 local governments.
So with that I'll answer any questions
lg that you might have.
]Q MR. CARROLL SAWYER: In the procurement
aspects do you envision or visualize incentives,
21 say for the federal installation to purchase, well,
22 let's say in the case of tires, that they might
last twice as long say in a higher cost or use
24 a form duplicate rather than triplicate to reduce
25 the amount of paper rather than concentrating only
I
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1 on recycling materials?
2 MR. STEVE LINGLE: That's a very
interesting question. I don't believe that
4 section of the Act provides for that. Would you
5 hand me a copy, I don't believe that option is
6 available in the Act. That section —
7 MR. GORDON RAPIER: I think it's an
excellent idea for conservation to reduce that.
9 MR. STEVE LINGLE: I do too. I wish it
10 were in here. It is not provided for specifically,
not specifically in this section of the Act.
12 Now, you know the -- I guess the guidelines I
13 mentioned earlier containing the beverage containers
14 that's sort of one activity, it's more or less
15 in that direction. We already issued those.
16 But the procurement section of the Act do not
17 provide that authority. Too bad that it doesn't.
18 Any other questions?
19 MR. DOUG WILSON: This resource recovery
committee, are they taking input from different
sources, from government, from industry and from
22 the public? Where are they getting their
information?
24 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Yes, that committee
25
is going to be taking input as is all other
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1 sections of the Act, is going to be trying to
2 solicit opinions and suggestions from a braod
base audience. I admit that I can't tell you
4 what the schedule is or what they have or what
5 particular meetings they have made but they
6 will be doing that.
MR. DOUG WILSON: How do you find
8 out about that?
9 MR. STEVE LINGLE: I would suggest that
10 you contact the EPA regional office and they
•II can provide you with the information on that.
12 Is that a good suggestion, Gordon?
13 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Yes, it is.
14 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Any other questions?
15
16 NOTE: No response.
17
MR. GORDON RAPIER: Thank you, Steve.
18
You know, in my position in the Regional Office,
I work across a number of programs and I really
20
21 enjoy a change of pace, I guess. I also increase
22 -my vocabulary when I deal with these resource
recovery people. I learn about things like
24 externality and that type of thing. Now,
25 before we go on with the last presentation I think
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you've heard most of the salient issues except i
i
for the state program development areas that i
i
George Garland will be talking about. I understanc^
4 i some people felt that they wanted to hear the body
5 of the presentations before they decided if they
6 wanted to make a statement. After about a twenty
to twenty-five minute presentation in Q and A
with George Garland on the state program
9 development, we're going to have an open discussion
10 if you care to have one. If you wish to make
n a statement please raise your hand and one of
12 the staff will pass out 3 by 5 cards so we can
13 get your name and the general area of the
statement you want to make. I'm asking that
15 because as you can see we have a reporter here
16 and we would like to enter into the record, into
17 the minutes, any open statement that you might
18 wish to make.
19 All right, The final presentation will
20 encompass the state program development and that
21 will be presented by George Garland.
22 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Well, this is my
23 last time up so I can't duck any questions this
24 time. The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act
25 recognizes that the states and local governments
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1 have the major burden in dealing with land
2 protection and solid waste management in the
United States. The Resource Conservation and
4 Recovery Act provide the mechanism for the states
5 to assume a dominant role in assuring proper
solid waste management. Now, this dominant
role is very much a state prerogative when it
comes to the regulatory aspects of dealing with
9 hazardous and nonhazardous waste. But it's a
10 role for local governments and the governor in
n cooperation with local elected officials, in
12 dealing with the planning and implementation needs
13 for actually meeting the required requirements
14 that are generated as a result of the Act.
15 The first deadline under the Resource
,6 Conservation and Recovery Act calls for guidelines
for regional identification. Identification of
regional planning areas and that's by April,
1977. And the question that the gentleman
asked in the back, about the interface between
20
21 the planning under RCRA and the planning under
22 Public Law 92-500 is germane right here. The
Act calls for 208 designated agencies to be
„. considered for various planning functions under
25 the Act. So that if it is appropriate for a
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1 208 agency to carry out certain parts of the
2 plan then they will be designated by the governor
in consultation with local elected officials to
do that. The governor will have six months
5 after the guidelines are published to divide the
6 state up into planning and management regions.
7 If the £tate already has such designations and
they came about through an open process, for
9 example, if the state legislature held hearings
10 and passed legislation saying that thus and so
11 units of government would act as planners for solid
12 waste then that can be reaffirmed by the governor
13 and the governor need not go through the whole
14 process all over again. However, if he does
15 not have that kind of designation right now and
that kind of coverage of the entire state then j
17 he would need to meet that designation. Six months!
18 after he does that designation he is to produce,
19 again, in cooperation with local elected officials,
a statement that shows who in the state will
^
21 plan for what and who in the ^Jtate will be
22 responsible for implementing one. That whole
23 thing takes eighteen months. Six months to
24 produce the guidelines, six months to produce
25 the definitions of planning and management areas
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1 in the state and six months to designate who
2 does what. At the same time EPA will be
producing guidelines for the state solid waste
management program by April, 1978. That's
eighteen months. And one of the things that '
states must do to have an acceptable plan --
•^
7 the next slide, please — they have to come up
g with a, with the following kinds of things. I
already mentioned that the governor has to come
10 up with a designation of how the state and
local governments will work together in planning
12 to implement the act. In addition he will have
13 to come up with a compliance schedule for
14 -converting duinps-*a_sani.tary—-laifSFiils or—
15 converting dumps to sanitary landfills plus
resource recovery facilities. There's supposed
to be an actual compliance schedule for each of
the open dumps listed in the inventory in the
18
19
In addition the governor in the state plan
21 will show how the state will have regulatory
authority for seeing that no new dumps, open
dumps, are created in the state.
The plan is to show how local governments
are going to be made free to contract over the
I
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1 long term, for resource recovery facilities,
2 I'm not sure what the situation in Virginia is but
•'i in some states^ local governments are restricted
4 to contracts that are coterminus with the length
5 of term in office of the local elected official,
6 This might be two or three years or might be one
7 or two years. To have a viable resource recovery
8 facility which costs sometimes millions of
9 dollars, you need to be able to make contracts
10 over say twenty years. So showing how the
n states will handle this barrier to implementing
12 resource recovery should also be in the Act.
13 The Act -- the state plan is to show how sanitary
^
14 landfills or resource conservation will take the
15 place of open dumps.
16 Now, there's a variety of places in the
17 Act where financial assistance is authorized for
lg state and local governments. Fred Lindsay talked
19 about Section 3011. He mentioned that twenty-five
20 million dollars will be available or has been
21 authorized in each of the fiscal years of '78 and
22 "79. There is a formula which is to be based
23 on the extent of the hazardous waste problem
24 in the state, which will be used to allocate
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i In addition Subtitle D, there are
2 provisions for planning monies, thirty million
dollars in fiscal year '78 and forty million dollars
4 authorized in fiscal year 1979. Again, the
5 distribution of this money between state level
6 of government and local and regional level of
7 government, who actually will be coming up with
the alternatives in all likelihood, is to be
9 determined by the governor in consultation with
10 local elected officials. This money will be
11 delivered to the spates according to a formula
12 strictly based on population, with the exception
13 that no state will receive less than one-half
14 of one percent of the total.
15 As Steve mentioned)Richmond has received
16 an implementation grant and that's the kind of
17 grant that allows you to do the groundwork for
lg the various things that you might want to do
and in this case a resource recovery kind of
facility.
21 This Act authorizes fifteen million dollars
22 each year in '78 and '79 for planning and feasibility
23 studies, as was the case here in Richmond, Also
24 for consultation, for surveys of market studies
25 and economic investigation in connection with
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1 resource recovery options, and for technology
2 assessments, perhaps in connection with other
:i solid waste management functions,
4 In order to be eligible the state must
5 be.or the local area must be meeting the land
6 disposal requirements and our guideline provisions.
7 There's no formula for this money so that it
8 would be administered by EPA on a case-by-case
9 basis. We would probably send out or call for
10 applications under this portion of the Act and
11 then evaluate all the applications based on some
12 criteria that was published at the time we made
13 the call.
14 In addition, there1 s a provision for
15 authorizing two and a half million dollars in
16 each fiscal year of '78 and '79 for places with
17 population less than 25,000 people, that gets
18 at least 75 percent of their solid waste from
19 outside their boundaries and that are encountering
2Q serious environmental problems. There is no
21 formula for this money except that no state can
22 designate more than one special community.
23 Finally, Section 4009 calls for assistance
24 to rural communities. This is the only section
25 of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act
t
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1 where construction money is actually made available.!
2 Again, authorization for twenty-five million in
fiscal '78 and fiscal '79 is planned. This
4 money is to go to the states to assist these
^
5 rural communities and there is a formula but it
6 actually is not terribly explicit. It simply
7 lists various criteria. It has to do with
8 how many cities or localities there are with less
9 than 5,000 population or counties with less than
10 10,000 population or with population density of
n less than 20 persons per square mile.
12 There's also a provision for giving _s,tates
more money if they have counties that are within
14 25 percent of where the average income is within
15 25 percent of the poverty level.
16 The next slide, please. The assistance
under this section, is for communities to meet
lg the open dumping restrictions either through
lg putting in sanitary landfills or putting in a
resource recovery alternative. In this case
21 the source separation facility would help cut
22 down on the waste going to the landfills or it
would help them meet the requirements of the
24 Clean Air Act in regard to solid waste. Or the
25 Federal Water Pollution Control Act in regard
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1 to solid waste.
2 The next slide. This assistance is
! available only if there is no regional system
4 and there's no existing or planned regional
5 system available. In other words, the Act is
6 not intended to encourage every little town to
7 go its own way and have its own bulldozer and
8 its own dump. That would clearly be uneconomical.
9 This provision is meant to help those rural
10 communities which, because of geographical
n considerations, are unable to cooperate with
12 other communities in things like equipment sharing
13 where a number of communities can economically
14 deal with this solid waste problem. I've already
15 said that the allotments going to the gtates will
16 be going on the basis of those things that I
17 mentioned earlier. The money can pay up to
18 75 percent of the costs but no money can go to
19 the purchase of land.
20 UNIDENTIFIED: If the existing agency
21 and the area is defined in the state plan and
22 so forth, it may not be too much of a problem
23 to suppose you get a 208 with a defined area,
24 and somewhat different agencies with somewhat
25 different areas define it under this Act, how are
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1 you going to interface the two acts and two
2 activities? Who's going to be responsible in
each case is what I'd like to know.
4 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: First of all, I
5 don't think it's a very likely situation but
6 if it should occur then clearly there will be
7 a requirement for coordination between the two
management agencies. For example, solid waste
disposal has significant water quality effects
and the 208 agency has the big picture on what's
'happening to water quality. Clearly, they're
12 going to be interested in the plans for improving
13 water quality that the solid waste planners
14 would have. On the other hand solid waste
15 planners are going to be very interested in what
16 the people who are cleaning up the waters are
doing, because they have to deal with the sludges
lg that are generated as a result of that activity.
19 Actually we're talking about linkages between two
agencies in the guidelines that we will be
21 proposing for regional identification.
22 Beyond that, at our headquarters, as
23 Fred pointed out, we do talk to each other.
24 Chris Beck is the Deputy Assistant Administrator
25 for water planning and standards. He intends to
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have a review of the activities of the 208
agencies and this review would take place with
the regional office people and the sfate solid
^
4 waste people. And if the 208 agency wants to
5 make residual management which is another term
for solid waste disposal a high priority item
then this group will decide whether or not that's
a good idea based on their track record.
9 In additionihe would like to make the
10 solid waste program responsible for administering
u that portion of PL 92-500, that Section J and K.
12 y^fhat has to do with the land disposal and residual
13 management. We are actually working on that
14 agreement right now.
15 ENSIGN B. G, KELLEY: I have a question^
16 what's going to be EPA's rule as soon as the
^.tates take over the regulatory authority? Are
the local governments going to take over the
lo
enforcement? What is going to be EPA's rule
after all this has taken place?
21 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: Are you interested
in the federal facilities?
*^f
ENSIGN B, G. KELLEY: Yes.
2o
MR. GEORGE GARLANDs The Resource
Conservation and Recovery Act has a unique provision
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it makes federal facilities subject to state
and local laws. Not just substance but also
procedures. A case in point is that a Naval
-1 facility connected with the pipeline in Alaska
5 was asked by the states to clean up some stuff
6 and they said kiss off. Their general counsel
7 was referred to the Resource Conservation and
8 Recovery Act and they cooperated beautifully,
9 Which goes to show you that a military organization
10 is not a bad thing sometimes. So what I'm saying
11 is, sorry about that, military organizations and
12 regulatory agencies should not throw stones,
13 So what I'm saying is that you will be
14 dealing with the spates now. What I'm saying
15 is that if the states abuse their privileges
16 under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act,
17 singling out federal facilities as targets for
some sort of vendetta you can be sure that Congress
lg will repeal the Resource Conservation and Recovery
2Q Act pretty quickly. The Act was almost vetoed
21 because federal facilities were very nervous
22 about local governments or state governments,
,>3 particularly the Department of Defense^ they
24 were very nervous about this particular provision.
25 So we're looking to the good judgment of the states
— ~r
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1 to treat federal facilities like they would treat
2 any other citizen or any other operation in the
state.
^
4 ' ENSIGN B. G. KELLEY: EPA itself, are
5 they supposed to be or are they sort of a super
6 judge as far as the states actually carrying out
this program to their satisfaction. Is that
their main role?
9 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: The criteria for the
10 states' plan will be administered by EPA. So
u EPA will decide whether to approve the state
12 plans or not. Now, although we have a broad ,
13
14 of disposal and in theory we're going to tackle
15 all of these waste disposal practices ;aH -r-igbfe
16 away-, in practicality there may be a number of
practices that we just don't know enough about
right now to really tackle them. And those
lo
kinds of practices are probably our agenda for
the future.
21 ENSIGN B. G, KELLEY: I have one more
22 suggestion, if you don't mind. We have one
suggestion and we found in the regulations, the
24 Coast Guard, that the big problem comes in after
25 the regulation has been implemented as to its
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1 effectiveness or failure if an industry has a
2 suggestion on how to improve the regulations
and whether they're feasible, where will they go?
4 Will they go directly to the ^tate for revision
5 or is that handled by the state?
6 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay. One of the
7 things I mentioned in the first talk I did, was
the fact that any citizen and that includes any
industry, they can petition for a change of the
10 regulations and that's one aspect.
n ENSIGN B. G. KELLEY: To EPA?
12 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: To EPA, yes. In
13 addition the Act calls for most of these
14 guidelines and regulations to be updated every
15 three years. So there's a provision for a
16 continual way to make the regulations more
practical or effective as we go along.
MR. CARROLL SAWYER: In regard to the
lo
rural areas or rural definition, at what point
or how involved will EPA encourage states to
21 get involved in the, maybe in the cooperation
22 that's already going on within planning districts
within the state? If a planning district includes
•%•
a sparsely populated rural area within the jitate
W0uld this type of thing, do you think or could you
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1 visualize a tendency to maybe retard some progress
2 that might have been under way on the basis that
if we don't do anything in a while maybe we can
4 get assistance from this area?
5 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: You hit on really
6 a key problem that this particular authorization
may create. First, let me say that the state
must certify what you plan to do with the rural
9 assistance money and that it is in conformance
10 or compliance with the state plan. So there
will be that connection. But the issue you
12 raise about won't there be or won't this or maybe
13 this would just retard a lot of the actions that
14 might already be under way. This money. My
15 answer is that I sure hope not. Given the fact
16 that President Carter has told the heads of all
agencies that he is not about to have an
18 unreasonable deficit and he is not making any
signs like he's going to be passing out money
20 all over the place and given the level of the
21 budget that has been proposed by the Ford people,
!
22 it's not likely that any money would be appropriate^
23 under that section of the Act. It would be a
24 great tragedy that if rural areas that were about
25 to do something did not do it because they thought
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94
12
13
14
15
Hi
17
18
lg
2Q
21
22
23
24
.,=
the money was coming. It's my feeling that they
should go ahead and do it because it's not likely,
unless there's a real ground swell and even in
that case chances are remote. So people in rural
areas ought to go ahead and do what they are
going to do,
MR. D. L. WOODROW: You made reference
to the governor and local elected officials.
Are you talking about boards of supervisors ,
are you talking about local elected officials?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: The governor has
~^
a task of figuring out how to meet this provision
of the Act. There are organizations of local
elected officials in the jjtate. I guess the
county officials, organizations of municipal
officials and so forth. And I anticipate that
the governor would use these organizations in
whatever he's going to do. In addition the
state legislature in many instances, represent
the people and you might use the state
legislature as the sounding board. Clearly the
phraseflocal elected officials does not mean
much if you don't start getting down to cases
and figuring out who ' s going to do it . In each
case and in each state the governor has to worry
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about who's going to do or how he's going to do
this. Our regional identification guidelines
will say something about the process for doing that.
We'll be happy to get any suggestions you might
have on how to make that a meaningful process.
MR. MICHAEL H. DIEM: What things are a
hazardous waste? Your^drafting up your proposed
rules, will hazardous wastes have to stay in the
9 state in which it's generated or could it
10 under certain circumstances which you might
prescribe, be able to be removed to a neighboring
12 state?
13 MR. FRED LINDSAY: You're addressing
the issue known as non-importation clauses,
15 That is whether or not hazardous waste should
16 be allowed to move from one sj:ate to another
or one district to another. EPA in the past
17
has taken the position that it is best to treat
hazardous waste and the disposal of hazardous
waste in that manner that makes the most sense.
21 That is where it can be handled the best from
an environmental standpoint and from a cost
standpoint. The overall best approach. Whether
24 it means moving from one state to another is
irrelevant. If it's necessary for the optimum,
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96
to dispose, how do you propose to handle hazardous
„ substances which have been incorporated in the
product which may be sold and used but which may
21 create substantial problems when mixed in with
22 other waste materials, like municipal solid waste.
,,3 MR. FRED LINDSAY: The disposal of --
94 the question relates to the disposal of products
25 which later become wastes and are hazardous in
I
i from both the environmental and cost standpoint
2 to move from one to the other then it should be
moved. Whether that becomes a regulatory
requirement is something we have not addressed yet.
Your thinking on that would be of interest to us.
6 As you know now typically many of these things
7 move and they move long distances. Some move
8 halfway across the country or even further. In
9 California there are wastes which come all the
10 way from the Gulf Coast states to California
because there are some facilities there that
12 handle them. So this is not uncommon.
13 MR. MICHAEL H. DIEM: The Act defines
14 the term generation producing waste. But at
15 least by one definition materials incorporated
in the product may not be wasted until their
intended use has been deleted. If somebody wants
18
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1 themselves, as I read your question. There are
2 some examples of this, for example, the fluorescent
lights, the ballast in fluorescent lights contains
4 small quantities of PCS, known to be hazardous
5 material. These things are disposed of routinely
6 in sanitary landfills. The question we face in
7 dealing with this, part of the question relating
to this and has given us a fit, first of all is
it practical to be able to gain control over
those things. Number two, how much damage do
they really do? Number three, how can we come
up with a definition of those or of hazardous
13 wastes which include those things which do in fact
14 create real problems and yet exclude those things
15 which it may be impractical to control? I'm not
16 quite sure. We may have to face that in terms
7 of specific case-by-case basis or on a case-by-case
lg basis. Such as the fluorescent light ballast.
ig If you have some specific cases of where this
„ sort of damage has occurred or the problems have
21 occurred in that light we would be glad to know
22 those. At this point we know of some but this
23 is a good question. Back in the hazardous waste
24 area, after—the-gentl«aaa, one gentleman asked a
25 question, fai-facfe-ono gentleman,
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1 or he asked something about why we didn't require
2 a chemical engineer to be at every sanitary
; landfill that received hazardous waste. I'd like
4 to ask a question because we have an interest
5 in this. Do you think or what is your opinion
6 relative to the degree of training that an
7 operator should have at a hazardous waste facility
8 and landfill that receives hazardous waste?
9 Should there be some requirement along those
10 linesit;o take it a step further, should there
z-
\\ be a requirement that the operator or any operator
12 of this site or any site, be certified in some
13 manner? I'm not talking about chemical
14 engineers but some other certification such as
15 we have for boiler operators and steam plant
16 operators? Could you comment on that, have you
17 thought about that?
18 UNIDENTIFIED: The only comment I could
19 say on that and I'm not opposed to industry but
20 you guys go in and industry tells you one thing.
21 We don't have any hazardous waste. But they go
22 out the back door and they tell Joe out there
23 to take it to the landfill. It winds up in the
24 landfill and maybe the landfill does not know
25 what it is and he never will know.
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1 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Under the Act if he
2 tells the generator, if the generator tells Joe
to take it to the landfill and the landfill is
not permitted to receive hazardous waste then
Joe, then the generator^would be in violation
6 of the Act.
7 UNIDENTIFIED: Sure, but then how does
8 the landfill know if he's violating it or not?
9 MR. FRED LINDSAY: The landfill would
10 not be violating it, at least I don't think he
n would if he was not told that it was hazardous
12 waste. It's up to the generator to identify
13 that material as a hazardous waste.
14 UNIDENTIFIED: I don't believe that
15 follows what you went through earlier. You said
16 the responsibility went all the way down to the
17 ultimate disposer.
18 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Let me back up and
19 see if I can make it a little clearer. It's up
20 to the generator, each generator to decide whether
21 his waste stream is or is not hazardous under the
22 criteria which we're developing. He is to test
23 his waste or otherwise determine that this waste
24 is hazardous or not hazardous based on those
25 criteria. If it is hazardous then the wastes entet
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1 the control system and the control system includes
2 generation of a manifest system, of a manifest
ticket, a trip ticket, which typically, at least
4 in the gtates that I've seen them in already,
5 then the generater has to fill out part of the
form stating this and so forth. Stating how much
and where you're supposed to take it. Those
kinds of things. That kind of information has
9 to be on that trip ticket. Then he gives that
10 ticket to the transporter. Your question is
n if he doesn't do that and he might know that it's
12 hazardous but he may not do that. Then the
13 generator's in violation.
14 MR. D. L. WOODROW: What if the generater
15 is not aware that he is generating hazardous
16 waste? Who finally identifies this thing, what
if it just keeps coming?
10 MR. FRED LINDSAY: The question is
lo
whether — your question is how do we or the
sjtate regulatory agency identify, how do you
21 identify hazardous waste that the generater does
22 not or for a generater who has not done it. Is
23 that right?
24 MR. D. L, WOODROW: Right.
,, MR. FRED LINDSAY: Okay. One way to do
Zo
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1 it, we have done a number of studies in our
2 department of the various industries. For
example, I'm not saying we have done all that
4 has generated hazardous wastes but we have done
5 enough to know the types of wastes and types of
6 waste streams which are hazardous or sometimes
7 hazardous. And given that, for example, any
given industry if 90 percent of those particular
9 firms in that industry were to come in and say
10 this is a hazardous waste and you know, running
n by the system, pretty soon I think you're going
12 to look at the other 10 percent and see if they
13 were complying with the Act or not. That's one
14 way we would have information on waste streams
is and we would then go check them out. Enforcement
16 is another question. How in addition to that,
17 do you enforce? Do you go around to the sanitary
18 landfills and analyze what's coming in? You can
19 do that. In California they have a system, and
20 I'm not saying our system will be the same as
21 theirs, but they have been adding to it for some
22 time. They inspect very frequently. The state
23 goes around and they'll go Ground and stop trucks
24 on the highway and say, what have you go tj and where
" n
25 is your manifest,and where are you taking this
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1 stuff.' And that's another mechanism for
2 enforcement. The state police in that particular
•5^.
- area have authority to do that same thing. They
4 can go around and check these manifests and these
5 trip tickets and see if somebody's dumping it
6 beside the road. Which I think is the worst
7 problem we face. They're authorized to do this.
8 They can stop and check the manifest and the trip
9 ticket and so forth. I understand they've caught
10 quite a number that way.
11 UNIDENTIFIED: Would EPA be the one to
12 settle something like that? Suppose you had
13 hazardous waste material on the landfill. People
14 thought it was and said they did not want it and
15 it was liquid or in liquid form. Suppose they
16 said they didn't want it. Now, would it be legal
17 to contact EPA?
18 MR. FRED LINDSAY: You could contact EPA
19 for technical assistance in any of these types
2Q of situations. We get this all the time. People
21 will say I've got such and such a waste material
22 and what kind of options are open to you. Insofar
23 we would give you what technical assistance we had.
24 As I said, there's a number of facilities in the
25 country who are in the business, the contract
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1 business of receiving these materials and treating
2 them and detoxifying them and disposing of them,
I think in the future there's going to be more
4 and more of these.
5 UNIDENTIFIED: These people who operate
6 these disposal facilities who do not take hazardous j
7 materials realize that they have a rather unique
service.
9 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Yes.
10 UNIDENTIFIED: They are charging unique
n prices. Are there any controls or restraints
12 against total price gouging, pricing these
13 hazardous wastes back into the local stream?
14 MR. FRED LINDSAY: In other words, will
15 there be any _f ederal or jtate controls of prices
16 that these people can charge?
17 UNIDENTIFIED: Not necessarily. But is
18 there some way of preventing free enterprise from
19 going whole hog and causing the system to break
20 down?
21 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Not under the Act.
22 And the only way that this can be handled, as I
23 can see it and under the way our system works
24 here, is more and more of these facilities and
j
25 then the competition will become more and more award
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1 of these facilities and then the competition will
2 be greater. There is also other options open.
Industries, and I don't want to sound like I'm
4 making the point that industries are the only
5 ones that generate hazardous wastes, it's not
6 necessarily industries but I guess by and large
7 most of the industry generate it. But anyway,
industries always have the option of treating it
9 and handling it themselves and many do. Many
10 companies do. Surely they tend to be the larger
ones. But some hazardous waste materials and
12 types of things that we're talking about, are
13 relatively small in volume. Some industries
14 may generate one drum every two months or every
15 six months. But typically the costs which we
16 have found in our studies which I mentioned
17 before, by and large they tend to be a relatively
18 small fraction of the total cost of producing
lg the product. That is the cost for doing it right
even though it may seem substantial it is an
21 incremental cost and it's relatively a small
22 fraction.
23 UNIDENTIFIED: Is EPA doing anything
24 about the disposal of nuclear waste?
25 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Nuclear wastes are a
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1 specific subset of hazardous waste. They're
2 controlled under the Atomic Energy Act of 1954.
Now, that's not totally true, I should say that
4 most of the nuclear wastes are controlled under,
5 they're controlled by the nuclear regulatory
6 Commission. Now, EPA, under that Act, has
7 authority to promulgate standards for exposure.
There's another part of EPA other than our branch
9 that deals with that. We don't have authority
10 to say you have to do it this way and you can't
n do it that way. All they have authority to say
12 is well, nobody can be exposed more than such
13 and such radiation. The nuclear regulatory
14 commission has the authority for that. Now,
15 on the other hand there are certain nuclear
radioactive wastes which are not covered by the
17 Atomic Energy Act. They are covered and we will
18 be able to handle those. They are the natural
]g occurring radioactive materials such as radium
and some of the others. Also, certain other
21 manmade radioactive materials. Any other
22 questions?
23
24 NOTE; No response,
25
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MR. GORDON RAPIER: That concludes the j
prepared presentation for tonight. This is one j
of ten regional offices from Philadelphia stretchingj
I
from Boston to Seattle and each of the regional
offices is going to be holding at least one such
public meeting and some regional offices are
holding two or more. As a matter of fact we're
going to be holding another meeting tomorrow
9 morning, here in Richmond. And then on February 2S|th,
10 and the 1st of March, we're going to have a
n similar public meeting in Pittsburgh,
12 As significant events occur in the
13 process of planning and development for the Act's
14 implementation we will hold public meetings to
15 the extent that we can regionally and certainly
16 in the various parts of the country we'll be
holding hearings. We welcome and solicit your
lg thoughts on how and what segments of the public
19 can make participation. We really and sincerely
„, want your advice and your thoughts.
21 I take it no one wants to make a
22 presentation?
23
24 NOTE: No response.
25
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1 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Are there any final
2 comments that anybody wants to make?
UNIDENTIFIED: Do you plan to establish
a specific mailing list for persons who might be
interested in the subject matter?
6 MR. GORDON RAPIER: We have mailing lists
7 in our offices and we are going to be adding to
8 those mailing lists as we get the names of j
|
9 additional people. We have a list of about
10 five thousand groups and we sent two thousand
11 for this meeting.
12 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Do we have the names
13 of all the people here?
14 MR. GORDON RAPIER: They should have
15 registered.
16 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Then those people
17 should be on the mailing list.
18 MR. GORDON RAPIER: But if you have the
19 names of additional people and groups that you
2Q feel should be on the mailing list then let us
21 know and we'll be happy to mail this information
22 out to them.
23 MR. MICHAEL H, DIEM: How much time after
24 these proposed rules are promulgated in the
25 Federal Register, is there for comments to be
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1 received by the rule making authority before these
2 finally become rules?
MR. GORDON RAPIER: Typically it's
forty-five --
MR. FRED LINDSAY: — Forty-five to sixty
6 days typically. I'm not sure in each individual
7 case how long it will be. Something like that.
8 MR. GORDON RAPIER: If there's no more
9 comments then I want to thank you all for coming
10 out tonight. I think you've asked some very
n thoughtful professional type questions. We
12 certainly want to thank you for coming and we do
13 appreciate your attendance. Thank you all for
14 coming.
15
16 HEARING CONCLUDED.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 CE_RTIFICATE__OF_ COURT REPORTER
2
I, Medford W. Howard, hereby certify that I was
4 the court reporter during the hearing concerning the
5 Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976, on
6 February 17, 1977, at the time of the hearing herein,
7 in Richmond, Virginia.
I further certify that the foregoing transcript
9 is a true and accurate record of the hearing herein.
10 Given under my hand this 1st day of March, 1977.
11
12
13
, Eord w: Howard, Notary PublicT;
14 Registered Professional Reporter
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
2 REGION III
6th and Walnut Streets,
5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19106
IN RE: Public Meeting, :
Resource Conservation :
9 and Recovery Act.
10
n
12
13
14
15 February 18, 1977,
16 Colony House - Executive Motor Inn,
1? 5215 West Broad Street,
lg Richmond, Virginia,
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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HOB EAST MAIN STREET
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PHONE 648-2801
1 APPEARANCES:
2 Gordon Rapier, Director of the Air and Hazardous Materials
Division of the Environmental Protection Agency,
3 Reg;ion III, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;
4 Charles Howard, Solid Waste Program, Environmental
Protection Agency;
5
William Schremp, Solid Waste Program, Environmental
6 Protection Agency;
7 Shirley Martin, Public Affairs Office, Environmental
Protection Agency, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;
Alma Mullane, Public Affairs Office, Environmental
9 Protection Agency, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania;
10 Rowland Dorer, Director of the Bureau of Solid Waste and
Vector Control, Virginia State Department of Health;
J. Shiflett, Secretary of Commerce and Industry, State
12 of Virginia;
13 Robert Testin, Chairman, Virginia Solid Waste Commission.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
2 Christine H. Hart, International City Management Association,
1090 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20036
Robert A. Forman, State Health Department, 106 Wendover
4 Lane, Charlottesville, Virginia,
5 J. F. Wisniewski, Consultant, Virginia State Department of
Health, Bureau of Solid Waste & Vector Control,
6
E. T. Diberto, City of Norfolk, Public Works,
7
Matthew Cooper, Jr., City of Franklin, Public Works,
8
Donald Peebles, Service Disposal, Chesapeake, Virginia,
9
Mike Dobson, Service Disposal, Chesapeake, Virginia,
10
J. J. Heston, Westmoreland County, Virginia,
n
W. P. Jones, Westmoreland County, Virginia,
12
M. Wentworth, Environmental Action Foundation, Washington,
13 D. C.
14 J. Morris, City of Portsmouth, Virginia,
15 James E. Johnson, City of Portsmouth, Virginia,
IB J. A. Wilkinson, Jr., DuPont, Richmond, Virginia,
17 W. R. Reed, York County Health Department,
18 Jack L. Reprode, Staunton, Virginia,
19 William M. Colony, University of Virginia,
20 Lawrence P. O'Keef, County of Henrico, 21st & Main Street,
Richmond, Virginia,
21
John P. Oliver, Bedford County Board of Supervisors,
22
C. F. Cox, Arlington County Bureau of Environmental Health,
23
C. Oral Lambert, Jr., Public Works, City of Virginia Beach,
24
W. T. Hutchin, Department of Public Works, Virginia Beach,
25 Virginia,
f
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APPEARANCES (Conf d. ) :
C. Edward Walter, Urgan Aggregates, Inc., Baltimore, Maryland,
Janice M. Clarke, Dept, of Natural Resources, Water Resources
Administration, Annapolis, Maryland,
H. Ronald Coake.Town of Pulaski, P.O. Box 660, Pulaski,
Virginia 24301
6
Sol Agrawal, P.G. County Health Department, 10210 Greenbelt
7 Road, Seabrook, Maryland 20801,
H. Bland Franklin, Jr., VPI Extension Division, 205 North
4th Street, Richmond, Virginia 23219,
9
Andrew Q-uigley, Arlington County Utilities, Arlington,
10 Virginia,
n Glenn W. Custis, Reynolds Metals Co., 6601 W. Broad Street,
Richmond, Virginia,
Don W. Caulkins, City of Portsmouth, Virginia,
13
James W. Dawson, Virginis State Water Control Board,
14
K. T. Chestnut, Virginia State Health Department,
15
J. D, As'hley, City of Hampton, Virginia,
Betsy Southerland, Virginia State Water Control Board,
17 Leo E. Olmsteadt, City of Richmond,
18
David Sheer, Goldman Paper Stock, Richmond, Virginia,
19 Drew Comer, Virginia State Water Control Board, Northern
Regional Office, P.O. Box 307, Springfield, Va. 22150
21 Cristy Jarvis, Craigie, Incorporated,
22 Michael H. Diem, U.S. Army Environmental Hygiene Agency,
Marge Abbott, City of Newport News, Department of Planning,
2400 Washington Street 23607
24
E. L. Hockman, VPI
25
Nick C. Buckholz, SAPCB,
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18
CRANE - SNEAD A ASSOCIATES
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l APPEARANCES (Cont'd.);
2 Jim Ester, SWCB,
Evan Norton, Planning District Commission, Hampton, Virginia,
4 Charles M. Waddell, King William County,
5 Dale R. Burton, Accomack-Northampton Planning District
Commission,
Eion Stickle, Maryland Municipal League, 76 Maryland Avenue,
7 Annapolis, Maryland 21401,
Don Gaston, UVA, 2208 Wayne Avenue, Charlottesville, Va 22901|,
„ P. J. Brady, County of Henrico, P.O. Box 27032, Richmond,
9 Virginia 27232,
10 E, M. Turner, Patrick County Board of Supervisors, P.O. Box 46(5,
Stuart, Va 24171,
Douglas H, John, Division of Solid Wastes, DHMH-EHA,
12 P.O, Box 13387, Baltimore, Maryland 21203,
13 John N. Miller,
14 Veal H. Tulhemier, Division of Solid Waste, Fairfax County,
Virginia,
P. M, Newart, Em. Health Director, Dept of Corrections,
Darlene L. Samsell, Resource Recovery Study Commission of
17 Ablemarle, Charlottesville and University of Virginia,
John R. Burke, Reynolds Metals Co., Richmond, Virginia,
Virginia P. Newton, State Water Control Board, Tidewater
Regional Office,
20
Harrell Copeland, Public Works, Virginia Beach, Virginia;
D. R. Masterson, Bureau of Solid Waste, Va.,
A. F. Fore, Bureau of Solid Waste, Va.
23
Stan Dobson, Service Disposal Corporation,
Martin Shockley, P.O. Box 179, Franklin, Virginia,
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CRANE - SNEAD a ASSOCIATES
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1108 EAST MAIN STREET
RICHMOND, VIRGINIA
PHONE 646 -2801
1 APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
2 H. B. Kerisley, James River Paper Company,
Janice E. Coleman, State Office of Litter Control,
4 Jeff C. Hu, State Office of Commerce & Resources,
5 Gerald Arthur, Allegany County, Maryland,
6 M. D. Phillips, State Water Control Board,
7 K. E. Wilkinson, Virginia Department of Highways and
Transportation, 1221 E, Broad Street, Richmond, Va 23219,
J. L. Thomas, E. I. DuPont, P.O. Box 27001, Richmond,
9 Va. 23261,
10 Earl E. Smith, #1 High Street, Portsmouth, Virginia 23704,
William L. Hart, Box 2448, Staunton, Virginia,
12 Fred M. McKee, Sussex County Council, Box 589, Georgetown, DE
19947,
13
Robert A,. Mann, Virginia State Air Pollution Control Board,
William 15. Ishmael, RRPDC, 6N6th, Richmond, 23219
15
james L, Pase, Delaware Solid Waste Authority,
John R. Ballard, II, City of Portsmouth Engineering Dept.,
17 Curtis Cole, Jr., City of Portsmouth Engineering Dept.,
I Q
Steve Crosby, Augusta County,
19 Paul M. Lin, Virginia State Water Control Board,
20 W. R. Clements, Virginia Department of Highways and
21 Trnasportation,
22 G. W. Palmore, City of Richmond, Virginia,
23 James P, Cook, County of Chesterfield,
04 John T. Hopkins, Virginia State Water Control Board, Box 307
Springfield, Virginia,
25
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COURT REPORTERS
1108 EAST MAIN STREET
RICHMOND, VIRGINIA
PHONE 648 -2B01
APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
Bruce E. Tarr, Virginia Department of Highways & Transportation
Erlina L. Patron, Virginia State Water Control Board,
4 I J. L. Womack, Jr., City of Newport News, Virginia,
5 James Williams, King George County,
6 R. L. Fink, VDH & T, 1221 E. Broad Street, Richmond, Va.,
7 John R. Knight, Department of Intergovernmental Affairs,
4th and Grace Streets, Richmond, Va. 23219,
K. M, McGinnis, University of Virginia,
9 Mrs. E. Polk Kellam, NACA Committee, Belle Haven, Va. 23306,
10 Oscar H. Adams, SHD, 109 Madison Street, Richmond, Va 23234,
11 M. M. Burk, Rapp. Rapidan Health Dept, Culpeper, Virginia,
12 Catherine N. Walker, League of Women Voters, Richmond Area,
is Motff^c'/fe
Sam MoM-kas, State of Maryland Health Department,
14 Danny Steiner, EGOS, Inc., Norfolk, Virginia,
15 E, L. Hockman, Virginia Water Resource Research Center,
16 VPI & SU, Blacksburg, Virginia,
H Bland Franklin, Jr., 205 North 4th Street, Richmond,
17 ' Virginia 23219,
18 Glenn W. Custis, Reynolds Metals Company, 6601 W. Broad
Street, Richmond, Virginia,
19
John T. Hopkins, 157 Coburn Drive, Manassas Park, Va. 22110
21 Matthew C. Cooper, Jr., City of Franklin, Public Works
Department.
22
23
24
25
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RICHMOND, VIRGINIA
PHONE 648-2801
MR. GORDON RAPIER: Good morning ladies
and gentlemen. We're starting a few minutes
late. Welcome to our meeting. We're here to
4 discuss the various aspects of the Resource
5 Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976.
6 My name is Gordon Rapier and I am the
7 Director of the Air and Hazardous Materials
Division, Environmental Protection Agency,
9 Region 3, in Philadelphia. With me are members
10 of our regional staff as well as representatives
from our Washington Office of Solid Waste.
12 The purpose of the meeting today is to
I3 explain the provisions of the new Resource
14 Conservation and Recovery Act which was signed
15 into law on October ,19th, 1976.
You should all have a copy of the Act and
if you don't we have some other handouts in the
rear of the room. If not and if you have not
lo
registered, please arrange to do so at the
reception desk in the back. The new law might
21 more appropriately be called solid waste disposal
act because it deals with all aspects of solid
waste management including land disposal of
2,0
solid and liquid wastes and management of
hazardous and chemical wastes. The Act includes
j
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1 provisions for making public participation in
2 the writing of the guidelines. So we're here
3 today to receive your comments and to answer
4 your questions to the extent that we can, about
5 the various aspects of the provisions of the Act.
6 In passing any action the Congress intended that
7 the full range of disposal methods for unwanted
materials be regulated. In prior years we have
9 had laws regulating disposal in the air and
10 into the water, and the ocean. Now this bill
regulates the land disposal for the first time
12 at the federal level.
13 The law encourages the states to take
over the administration of the program. Your
15 views on this should be conveyed to your state
16 officials. The following are a few of the
crucial areas of implementation where we feel
that your views and guidance are most critical.
lo
One, precisely how should hazardous waste be
19
defined? Since much of the damage from
20
21 hazardous waste occurs before the reach treatment,
22 storage and landfill disposal facilities and
since the Act focuses only on upgrading land
disposal facilities to take care of those wastes
which fall outside of the hazardous waste
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1 definition it is clear that how hazardous wastes
2 are defined is a critical element in implementing
3 the Act.
4 Two, in which ways, if any, would the
5 definition of hazardous waste have a bearing
6 on the state's willingness to take over
7 responsibility for the program? Which, under
the Act, is not mandatory but, of course, highly
9 desirable.
10 Three, what would be the best way to
11 insure that hazardous wastes are defined to the
12 fullest extent possible on standardized obj ective
13 criteria and associated tests and at the same
14 time not put too great a burden on many potential
15 hazardous wastes generators who are small
16 businesses?
Four, wastes are mixtures of many different
18 materials. To what extent can criteria and
19 tests be applied to wastes and to what extent to
20 suspected hazardous components?
21 Five, the Act requires a definition of a
22 sanitary landfill and of the obverse an open dump.
23 To apply, we feel, to both municipal and industrial
24 wastes and possibly to others from agricultural or
25 mining, should pit pond and lagoons used for the
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1 discharging of industrial wastes be defined as
2 open dumps unless they meet the sanitary landfill
3 criteria?
4 Sixth, what kind of process should EPA
5 establish to determine which guidelines should
6 be written or updated?
7 Seven, with regard to state and local
planning. What process should be employed to
enable governors and local government heads to
10 decide who does the planning and implementation
11 for which aspects of the solid waste management
12 and which percent of planning funds each should
13 receive?
14 Eight, how should the waste disposal
15 inventory be carried out? Who should do it?
16 How decentralized should it be? How can we
survey facilities on industrial property?
18 Nine, what is the degree of need for a
19 full-scale demonstration projection resource
20 recovery?
21 Ten, resource conservation panels or
22 technical assistance panels are important to the
23 success of the Act. How comprehensive should
24 they be? How much should they focus on resource
25 conservation and recovery in relationship to a
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1 focus on hazardous waste and land disposal of all
2 waste. What should be the proper composition
3 of such panels to insure appropriate representation
4 to state, regional, and local levels of government?
5 Eleven, the Act mandates several special
6 studies and directs a broad range of supportive
7 research and development activities to be carried
8 out. Can new research and development be
9 performed in time to influence the formulation of
10 mandated guidelines and regulations? Which
n activities should be considered essential in the
12 development of solid waste management
13 alternatives and therefore considered high priority
14 for research?
15 Twelve, unlike the Water Control Act and
16 the Clean Air Act, this Act does not mandate
17 quantifiable objectives but rather gives broad
18 guidance as to the law's intent. Open dumps are
19 to be closed and hazardous wastes are to be
20 regulated within a certain time frame. But no
21 measures of environmental or public health
22 improvements are suggested. Should we, however,
23 try to assign meaningful quantifiable objectives
24 to the solid waste area? If so, what kind of
25 monitoring and feedback systems should be provided
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1 to evaluate results?
2 Thirteen, the Act mandates a high degree
3 of public participation in the development and
4 implementation of regulations, guidelines,
5 permits and information required by the law.
6 How can we best obtain public participation in
7 a timely and meaningful way? What avenues should
8 EPA explore to insure really widespread and
9 effective public participation?
10 Should we, however, try to assign
11 meaningful and justifiable objectives to solid
12 waste management areas? If so, what kind of
13 monitoring and feedback system should be
14 provided to evaluate results?
15 The Act mandates the highest degree of
16 public participation in the development and
Y! implementation of the regulations, guidelines,
18 permits and information required by law. How
19 can we best obtain public participation in a
20 timely and meaningful way? What avenues should
21 EPA explore to insure reliable widespread and
22 effective participation? These are just a few
23 of the things that we're interested in,
24 We have a court reporter here today and
25 he is going to prepare a transcript of the meeting.
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14
1 As part of the format we are going to have a
2 series of prepared presentations and after each
3 of these we will have a period for questions and
4 answers. At the termination of all the
5 presentations, if there's anyone then that would
6 like to make a statement, please out the three by
7 five card, that you can get from the reception
8 desk, and turn them in. Then you'll be asked to
9 come to the front and make your presentation into
10 the microphone. Then it can be recorded and
11 put into the transcript.
12 Now, it's our intent here, to do the best
13 we can to get full participation of the public.
14 This is one of a series of meetings that EPA is
15 doing in coordination with the various state
16 agencies, We have ten regional offices spread
17 from Boston to Seattle. In each of these
lg regions we will be putting on at least one and
19 perhaps two public meetings within the next twenty
20 days. As a matter of fact we are having another
21 meeting in Pittsburg/i at the end of this month.
22 Before we proceed any further I'd like
23 to introduce a few people here. From our staff
24 is Mr. Bill Schremp.Mr, Chuck Howard, Shirley
25 Martin, Alma Mullane from the Public Affairs
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15
l office in our Regional Office. That's our staff.
2 The people from our Solid Waste Program in
3 Washington will be introduced individually because
4 they are going to make the presentations to you.
5 We also have present with us today,
6 Mr. Roland Dorer who is the Director of the
7 Bureau of Solid Waste and Vector Control for the
8 State of Virginia. We also have Dr. Robert Testin
9 who is Chairman of the Virginia Solid Waste
10 Commission. We also have Colonel Adams who's
11 with the Health Department.
12 After the Act was passed, within a few
-?w vff?
13 weeks^my boss Dan Sohaeidei", the Regional
14 Administrator, he wrote a letter to the governors
15 Of all the states for which he was responsible,
16 He suggested that they would want to appoint a
17 lead agency to provide participation. I don't
18 believe that the governor has appointed a lead
19 agency yet. However, one of our dear friends
20 that we've worked with a great deal wrote a
21 very kind letter and we're also aware that he
22 has had a long interest in the solid waste
23 management program, So I'm very pleased at
24 this time, to introduce him today. He's going
25 to make a few remarks. The Honorable Earl J.
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1 Shiflett, Secretary of Commerce and Industry.
2 HON. EARL J. SHIFLETT: Thank you,
3 Gordon, it's a great pleasure for me to be here
4 with you this morning and participate in this
5 conference for a few minutes. I might say
6 that this is not a prepared manuscript but you
7 may not want to bother to take it down, I just
8 do not want to disrupt the continuity of the very
9 fine presentations that already have been made
10 as introductions to you on what the Act is all
11 about.
12 I would like to say that you're going to
13 have to come up with a lot of creative thinking
14 here today, I believe, on this particular subject.
15 It reminds me of the minister who had
16 a new family come into his congregation. They
17 had been to the church a few times and he had
18 not been to visit them. So he thought that he
19 would do so. So he rapped on the door and a
20 little eight-year-old boy answered the door and
21 he asked, may I speak to your mother. The little
22 boy replied she's out playing cards. Then he
23 said, is your father here? The little boy said
24 he's out on the golf course somewhere. Then he
25 said, what about your older brother. The little
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1 boy said, well, he just left to go out with the
2 gang, but don't you have an older sister and the
3 little boy said yes, but she's just left on a
4 date. Then he said, you mean that all these
5 people just left you here in this great big house
all by yourself? The little boy said, yes, and
I wouldn't be here either if I didn't have our
big white tomcat in the deep freeze trying to
make a polar bear out of him.
You're going to have to try to make some
polar bears out of white tomcats, I think, before
12 this whole thing is over and use some creative
13 imagination. As I was driving out here this
morning, I was just recalling to memory, how
15 long I have been involved in this whole business
16 of solid waste. And I was recalling that
17 twenty-four years ago, I think it's next month,
lg that I had the privilege of calling a meeting
,n of some people from the Highway Department, the
„ old chain store council, a number of interested
citizens, and representatives of the Association
22 of Counties. At that meeting we discussed what
23 should we do in response to a letter that we
24 had from a gentleman in Southwest Virginia who
25 was complaining about the indiscriminate disposal
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1 of cans and bottles and other solid wastes that
2 were causing injuries to his livestock and the
3 streams, et cetera. And out of that meeting was
4 born the old, keep Virginia, the old anti-litterbug
5 council which three years later became Keep
6 Virginia Beautiful which you've heard of for
7 many years.
8 So since that time I have been intimately
9 involved, in one way or the other, in this whole
10 issue. So while Thomas Jefferson is known as
11 the father of the Declaration of Independence
12 I'd like to be known as the father of solid waste
13 consciousness in Virginia. You can put that
14 in the transcript, please. If I don't put it
15 in there it will never get in history so that's
16 the reason I thought that maybe we ought to do
17 that.
lg Now, I have not come here this morning,
19 to add anything to the strength of the legislation
2Q and I have not come to attempt to tell you what
2i you ought to do about this whole business of
22 how to deal with solid waste except to say that
23 I have come, not only to welcome you to this
24 conference on behalf of the governor but to say
25 to you that I am on a crusade to do away with the
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l word waste. I would'like to have you think
2 so you can get, get your pencils out so you can
3 write this down, because you're at a point in
4 history in Virginia, this is a watershed moment
5 and I'd like you to put down these words. That
6 w-a-s-t-e should stand for ways available for
7 substance transformation or enhancement. Ways
available for substance transformation or
9 enhancement.
10 So long have we in this society of ours
been a throw-away society that we've got to become
12 a reclaiming society. It is almost a national
13 disgrace that we have assumed that we can just
14 throw away half used products and spend so much
15 energy and effort to achieve an end that could be
16 done with half the energy or effort,
I am told that the nation of Sweden
10 which is comparable to this nation in terms of
lo
industrial development and standard of living and
all these kinds of measurements that we can apply,
20
21 use about two-thirds the amount of energy that
22 we use to generate one dollar of gross product.
That says to me that we're not using all of our
savvy in getting the most out of what we have
25 available to us. Somehow we've got to adjust our
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20
1 thinking in this connection. And so if we look
2 to this whole business of the matter of solid
3 waste, I have the responsibility also for the
4 port authority, as you may know, and we have a
5 tremendous assignment in working with the Corps
6 of Engineers every year to dredge the channels
7 of the Hampton Roads area.
8 Now, what we do is we let the soil wash
9 off of our wonderful farms down the James River
10 and other rivers to accumulate in a ditch down
n there that we have to dredge out and it costs
12 us millions of dollars to hide somewhere, to get
13 rid of all of these things and these things should
14 be reclaimed somehow. In the first place we
15 ought to stop letting it get down there. But
16 I do know that all of it is not just soil from
17 farms. I've been informed on that and I accept
lg that a lot of it that's coming out of other ways
lg besides just washing it off the farms. It isn't
all just from that. But most of this is somehow
2i reuseable. So we're just driving ourselves
22 crazy trying to find out what to do with these
23 millions of tons of dredged materials that is
24 there in the channel. You see, the problem is
25 where are we going to hide it and where are we
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21
i going to put it? But the question is how can we
2 use this as something useful?
3 Now, this whole matter of energy, we know
4 that we have got to become conservation minded
5 and this is related to all this business I'm
6 talking about of recovery. The transformation
7 of substances, it's all a matter of energy. Our
8 whole being is a matter of energy primarily.
9 I'll let Dr. Testin tell you how it is, I can't
10 do that but I'm sure he supports me that this
11 is true. So it's a matter of how we use the
12 energy in the products and the substances that
13 we manufacture and use and so forth.
14 Now, we know that all of our fossil fuels
15 are finite substances and while we cannot prove
16 all of this we are told that we have enough
17 natural resources or natural gas and petroleum
18 products to last about ten to twelve years, that
19 is known reserves. We have supposed reserves
20 of about twenty to thirty years. There is that
21 unknown area that might run us longer than that.
22 But that's a pretty shocking thing when we stop
23 to think about how dependable we are using about
24 70 percent of our energy use based on natural
25 gas and petroleum products. We have been wasting
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1 so much of these products.
2 Now, now we've got to look to some
3 alternate sources of energy somehow and we've
4 got to examine how to conserve what we are using.
5 You know, this reduction of the thermostat to
6 55 degrees has brought about quite a savings and
7 we have learned that you don't get as cold when
g you go outside in the teens from 65 as you get
9 when you went out in 72 degrees. We've also
10 learned that we could put on sweaters and it
ll didn't look too bad. We've learned that we could
12 put on a robe at home and wear our old smoking
13 jackets that somebody gave us that we had not worn
14 for a while. You know, we've learned about a
15 whole lot of things that we can do to adjust
16 if we just set our minds to it.
17 While I'm not adding a thing to tell you
lg how to cope with your Act and that's the reason
19 I say you may want to excuse these remarks from
20 your conference, yet I appeal to you because you're
21 the people that can influence this concept, I
22 appeal to you. Let us think in terms of ways
23 that are available to us and if they are not
24 available let's make them available somehow for
25 substance transformation or enhancement.
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1 So I appeal to you to help us establish
2 in our society, the concepts of being a reclaiming
3 society rather than a throw-away society. Then
4 I'd like to wish you well because in the interim,
5 you see all of this is a long-term plan and
6 you're dealing with the immediate and a short range
7 plan. I think it's very important that you do
8 today what you are doing and may I commend EPA
9 for the effort that you are making to have the
10 federal government join with the s£ate and
a * localities in order that we can cope with this
12 very aggravated problem of the moment in a very
13 responsible way. I do commend them, I commend
14 you for being here and I hope you address yourselves
15 to the seriousness of this situation and seriously
16 to the subject of how can we cope with solid waste
17 that is available and has to be coped with until
18 such time as we can stop having the solid waste
19 in the magnitude that we have to contend with,
2Q It's a great pleasure to have been with
21 you and I trust that you will excuse me because
22 I have another assignment that I need to get to.
23 But I wish you well in your conference today and
24 I hope that it will be a meaningful experience
25 for all of you.
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1 MR. GORDON RAPIER: Thank you very much,
2 secretary Shiflett. I must confess that I have
3 got a meeting in Philadelphia that I have to get
4 to. So in a very short time I'm going to turn
5 the chair to moderate this public meeting to
6 Bill Shrimp from my staff. You're going to
7 have about two hours of presentations and a
8 question and answer period and we're going to
9 go over, they're going to go over a substantial
10 portion of the highlights of the Act. We enjoin
n all of you to ask as many questions as you please
12 and as you begin to think about suggestions and
13 comments that you wish to make. I want you to
14 know that we're going to consider all of them.
15 Bill, can you come and take over now.
16 MR. WILLIAM SCHREMP: Thank you, Gordon.
17 The first speaker on the program is Mr. George
18 Garland, with the Aatttattmt- Management Division
19 of the Office of Solid Waste in Washington. He's
20 going to speak on training,ipublic information
21 and manpower related issues.
22 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Thank you, Gordon,
23 The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of
24 1976, contains an unusually complete array of
25 provisions which could bring about a high degree
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1 of public understanding and participation.
2 Taken together these various provisions make it
3 clear that Congress understood tnat it is impossibi
4 for the public to participate meaningful unless
5 the government first produces valid data that
processes and publishes the information in such
a way that everyone may have real access to it.
Only in this way can the public really have a
9 reasonable chance of influencing the social,
10 economic and political changes which the law
11 will bring about.
12 In Section 8003, the Administrator of
13 EPA is required to develop, collect, evaluate
14 and coordinate information on nine key elements
15 which are crucial to the Act's purpose. The
16 Administrator is not only to implement a program
for the rapid dissemination of information, he
lg also is to develop and implement educational
lg programs to promote citizen understanding.
2Q This makes it quite clear that the
21 information called for is not to be developed
22 for the exclusive use of those who, for one
23 reason or the other, are to be considered
24 experts in the field. Moreover, the
25 Administrator is asked to coordinate his actions
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1 and cooperate to the maximum extent possible with
2 state and local authorities, and to establish
3 and maintain a central reference library for
4 virtually all kinds of information involved in
5 solid waste management. This is for the use
6 of j|tate, local governments, industries and the
7 public.
g To insure that the public participation
9 process does not become lopsided we felt it was
10 necessary to identify major categories of interest
n groups who represent the public at large.
12 Under the Resource Conservation and
13 Recovery Act we regarded these to include the
14 consumer, environmental and neighborhood groups,
15 trades, manufacturing and labor representatives,
16 public health, scientific and professional
17 societies, and governmental and university
18 associations. This spectrum of categories of
19 representative groups will be altered and
2Q supplemented as necessary, if in the course
21 of implementing the Act it appears desirable
22 to do so.
23 Section 700A(a) of the Act, it states
24 that any person may petition the Administrator
25 for the promulgation, amendment, or repeal of
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1 any regulation under this Act.
2 Section 7004(b) has to do with public
3 participation. The Act says that public
4 participation in the development, revision, and
5 enforcement of any regulation, guideline,
6 information, or program under this Act shall be
7 provided for, encouraged, and assisted by the
8 Administrator and the states. The Act further
9 goes on to state that the Administrator, in
10 cooperation with the jjtates, shall develop and
11 publish minimum guidelines for public participation
12 in such processes.
13 Section 7002(a), of the Act, states that
14 any person may commence a civil action on his
15 own behalf against any other person including
16 the United States who is alleged to be in violation
17 of this Act or against the Administrator if there
18 is alleged a failure by the Administrator to
19 perform any act or duty under this Act.
20 The many techniques which can be used to
21 involve the public in government actions, fall
22 into three major categories.
23 One, to insure that appropriate public
24 meetings, hearings, conferences, workshops and
25 so forth are held throughout the country. That
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i they are planned and held in accordance with the
2 unfolding of the Act's key provisions.
3 Two, use of advisory committees and
4 review groups which may meet periodically but
5 which will be also called upon to review and
6 comment upon major programs, regulations, and
7 plans no matter when they occur and no matter
8 whether a specific meeting is convened or not.
9 Three, development of an educational
10 program so that the public has an opportunity
11 to become aware of the significance of the
12 technical data base and the issues which emerge
13 from it. Effective public education programs
14 depend on the use of all appropriate communication
15 tools, techniques and media.
16 Section 7007(a and b) authorize the
17 Administrator of EPA to make grants to and
18 contracts with any eligible organization for
19 training persons for occupations involving the
2Q management, supervision, design, operation,
21 or maintenance of solid waste disposal and
22 resource recovery equipment and facilities or
23 to train instructors. Eligible organization
24 means state or any state agencies, municipalities
25 or educational institution capable of effectively
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1 carrying out a project.
2 Section 7007(c) requires a manpower
3 study with a report to Congress for the need of
4 additional personnel to meet the Resource
5 Conservation and Recovery Act. Also, the ability
6 of existing programs to meet the needs and
7 obstacles to advancement of people in solid waste
8 management fields.
9 In view of the manpower limitations and
10 the many time mandated provisions of the Act,
11 it is not likely that the training activity or
12 manpower study will be done during this fiscal
13 year.
14 I'll take questions now on the public
15 participation provisions of the Act or the
16 manpower development provisions of the Act or
17 the training provisions.
18 UNIDENTIFIED: When do you expect the
19 guidelines to be drafted for the public
20 participation?
2i MR. GEORGE GARLAND: I expect those
22 in about six months.
23 MR. WILLIAM SCHREMP: If you have any
24 questions would you please state your name
25 before you ask a question.
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1 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: How much money is
2 earmarked for this grant project?
3 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: How much money is
4 earmarked for the grant, is that what you're
5 talking about?
6 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: Yes, for this project?
7 MR, GEORGE GARLAND: So far we don't
8 have an appropriation for fiscal '78. And out
9 of our^ we don't have any additional monies in
10 fiscal '77. So any money that would have been
11 appropriated would have been out of the jLCt that
12 we had before October. There is about, I think,
13 a $500,000, it's about a $500,000 training grant
14 and that kind of activity. They're oriented
15 mostly towards citizens groups and groups that
16 represent the public —
17 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: Is that for Region 3
18 or is that for the whole country?
19 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: That's for the nation.
20 I might say that we're forming an ad hoc advisory
21 group which will have representatives from the
22 spectrum of organizations that I mentioned. We
23 hope to form a formal advisory group when this
24 is done. There will be notice published in the
25 Federal Register of that formal advisory group.
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1 UNIDENTIFIED: How does one express
2 interest in being on the advisory group?
3 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: By writing to
4 Sheldon Myers in Washington. Now, I think the
5 address is on some of the materials that have
6 been handed out to you but if you need it I'll
7 give it to you after the meeting. I'll state
8 the address now. It's 401 M Street, M as in
9 mother. It's Southwest, Washington, D. C. 20460
10 Now, that name I misspelled, the name is
11 M-e-y-e-r-s.
12 MR. DANNY STEINER: You mentioned in
13 7000 (a and b) that grants were available for
14 jtates but you didn't say anything about private
15 companies. Would they be also available for
16 grants?
17 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Under this Act
18 private companies are also eligible. But I
19 also said that due to the manpower and funding
20 limitations it's not likely that these provisions
21 would be actively pursued in the near future.
22 MR. WILLIAM SCHREMP: All right. Our
23 next speaker will be Mr. Fred Lindsay, who is
24 Chief of the Implementation Branch of the
25 Hazardous Waste Division of the Solid Waste
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l Management Office in Washington. He's going to
2 talk about Subtitle C of the Act and talk about
3 the hazardous waste management program.
4 MR, FRED LINDSAY: Let me say at the outset
5 that we're gratified and we appreciate your turning
6 out here and the size of this group gives us the
7 benefits of your thoughts and advice on this as
we get started on this difficult road of
9 implementing the Act. I'm here to discuss
10 Subtitle C of the Act which mandates that a
regulatory program be initiated for hazardous
12 waste which will control the movement and disposal
13 of hazardous waste from the point of generation
14 to the point of ultimate disposal in a permanent
15 facility. This is a very clear mandate, how we
16 are to carry it out although we're allowed quite
a bit of leeway. But it's a clear mandate that
this be done.
lo
I'm going to go through this briefly here
19
today, what the Act calls for us to do relative
20
21 to hazardous waste and depose some of the problems
and some of the issues and so forth, some of the
issues and problems that we're going to have to
wrestle with in complying with the Act's provisions
The first thing we have to do under
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1 Section 3001, the first item of importance that
2 we have to deal with is to identify criteria or
3 those characteristics of waste materials which
4 cause it to be either hazardous or nonhazardous.
5 The Act specifies that these criteria are to
6 include such things as toxicity, persistence in
7 the environment, degradability, bio-accumulation
8 and tissue, climability, corrosiveness and
9 similar properties. Once having done that we
10 are to identify wastes by developing a list which
11 are hazardous. Now, the Act gives eighteen
12 months to do this and this is typical of most of
13 the provisions for hazardous waste regulations.
14 We have eighteen months to promulgate these
15 regulations, beginning when the Act was passed
16 on October 21st, 1976.
17 Some of the issues surrounding this
18 particular difficult problem of identifying what
19 and what is not a hazardous waste include what
20 toxic and nontoxic paramaters in addition to the
21 ones that are spelled out in the Act, should be
22 included in defining hazardous waste and what
23 level of toxicity, corrosiveness, and climability
24 et cetera. Since wastes are a mixture of many
25 different types of materials to what extent can
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1 these criteria tests be applied to wastes. To
2 what extent should they be applied to suspected
3 hazardous components of waste? These are the
4 types of problems which we'll be wrestling with
5 and upon which we'd like to have your thoughts
g and input over the next number of months.
7 Section 3002 mandates that we produce
certain regulations relative to the generaters
9 of hazardous waste. These are people who produce
10 waste material and typically these are industries
u although there are other sources. In this area
12 we must come up with record keeping and reporting
13 standards which will include such things as the
14 quantity or the identification of the quantities,
15 constituents within the waste streams and
16 disposition of wastes at each generation facility,
and what disposition will be made of the wastes?
1Q Records will be needed to be kept of those and
lo
lg reports of those too.
We'll have to come up with standards
21 relative to the labeling of containers or the
22 design of containers for hazardous waste and they
will have to be developed.
24 Very importantly the Act calls for the
25 setting up of a manifest system, A manifest svtti
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1 is designed to track waste and that's basically
2 from cradle to grave. From the points of
3 generation to the points of ultimate disposal,
4 The manifest system will give to the transporter
5 and to the disposer, certain pertinent information
6 on wastes, such things again, as characteristics
7 and quantity and so forth. It will give
8 information relative to the characteristics of
9 that waste. These manifest systems exist in
10 certain states already who have been dealing with
n the hazardous waste problem for some time. In
12 those states they typically take the form of a
13 trip ticket, a transportation trip ticket.
14 Some of the issues which surround this
15 area or some of the problems which surround this
16 section of the Act are, how can we minimize the
17 record keeping and reporting burden and yet have
18 adequate cognizance over hazardous waste management
19 problem and its solution? Another one, should
2Q transport manifest systems be uniform nationwide
2i or should there be less flexibility from one
22 place to the other?
23 section 3003 of the Act calls for similar
24 or somewhat similar regulations relative to the
25 transport of hazardous waste. Included are
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1 record keeping provisions, sources and delivery
2 points of wastes, labeling requirements, compliance
3 with the manifest system, which will impact upon
4 the transporters as well. We're called upon
5 within the Act, to be sure that whatever regulations
6 and so forth, that we develop here, that they are
7 consistent with the current Department of
Transportation regulations for transport.
9 One of the more important sections of the
10 Act is Section 3004. That mandates that EPA
develop standards for owners and operators of
12 treatment, storage and disposal facilities which
13 handle hazardous wastes as identified in 3001.
14 Congress spells out some of the types of standards
15 which we must have including record keeping and
16 recording standards, compliance with the manifest
system, and how much waste and how it is disposed
of. There's also requirements for monitoring
lo
and inspection. The idea here is to, so that
standards will be set so as to be sure that there
21 is adequate inspection and monitoring to determine
22 if a site is polluted.
The Act calls for standards for the
24 location, design, and construction of such
25 hazardous waste facilities. Such things as where
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1 can facilities be placed and where can they not
2 be placed, what design options may be precluded
3 or otherwise restricted, requirements for
4 maintenance and operation standards, and there
5 are requirements for contingency plans. That
6 means that there is to be a certain type or some
7 sort of plan of what is to be done by various
parties if in fact there is a problem that arises.
9 Then there is a broad category known as
10 ownership requirements. This could consist of
standards relative to the setting of performance
12 bonds, insurance requirements, long term care
13 funds, training requirements, site closure plans
14 and those kinds of issues.
15 In addition there's a rather broad
16 statement there that the administrator may
17 promulgate such other standards for treatment,
lg storage and disposal facilities as he deems
19 necessary for the protection of the public health
„. and the environment. So it's a rather broad
zu
21 mandate, mandating certain types of standards
22 and giving very broad power beyond that.
Some of the questions which we're facing
and some of the problems which I can read off a
25 few of them, maybe you can start thinking about then
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i What additional liability Insurance
2 requirements would be needed to adequately
3 implement something like this, a facility like
4 this? What are the main problems associated
5 with integrating standards for hazardous waste
6 facilities with the present standards which
7 people are complying with or which companies are
complying with relative to air, water, and OSHA
standards? Should performance standards of a
10 hazardous waste storage treatment or disposal
facility apply at the fence line of the facility
12 or elsewhere? Should hazardous waste facilities
13 be uniform nationally or should they allow
14 flexibility from region to region or from state
15 to state or from place to place?
ie Many citizens automatically oppose the
17 siting of a hazardous waste facility in their
18 locality. Would the setting of a very stringent,
19 very tigucly controlled facility standards have
20 any appreciable influence on this issue or
21 alternately how can this issue be faced? Should
22 the regulations published by EPA require training
23 of employees or certification of employees like
what is done with boiler operators and so forth?
25 Should EPA require bonding and insurance for
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1 hazardous waste facilities? What routine
2 monitoring should be required and who will do
3 the monitoring and how can it be carried out?
4 These are just some of the issues which we're
5 starting to wrestle with now and which we'd
like, as I said, to have your input on.
Section 3005 requires that EPA develop
a permit system for the treatment, storage
9 facility. The permit would be granted upon
10 the conviction of either the agency or the
11 state which may take over the Act. That the
12 facility is or is expected to be within the limits
13 of the standards which are to be set up under
14 3004. That they will comply with the treatment,
15 storage and disposal facility standards. If so
16 the permit will be granted. It will be illegal
six months after the promulgation of the standards
lg under Section 3001, to dispose of wastes in a
lg nonpermitted facility.
Now, in developing the permit system the
21 Act requires that certain hazardous waste data
22 be included in the permit application including
23 the manner of disposal, the type and amount of
24 waste which are to be received, treated, stored,
and the frequency and rate at which the various
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1 materials are to be applied or handled. It also
2 requires that there be certain information on
3 the site characteristics developed,
4 There's also a provision, which may be
5 of some interest, for the granting of an interim
6 permit for those treatment, storage and disposal
7 facilities which are in existence as of the
8 passage of the Act and who have notified EPA
9 under Section 3010, which I'll get to in a minute,
10 and who have applied for a permit. Those people
H will be granted an interim permit which will
12 allow them to continue to operate until final
13 disposition has been made on the application,
14 the formal application. Congress has seen fit
15 to do this to permit existing facilities to
16 continue to keep operating.
17 One of the questions which we're facing
18 in this area is, should there be different classes
19 of hazardous waste permits depending upon the
20 amount and type of wastes that are handled. If
21 so, what should be characteristics of these
22 classes.
23 Under Section 3006 Congress has indicated
24 the desirability of the states to take over the
25 permitting and enforcement sections of this act.
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EPA is mandated to putting together guidelines
2 to assist the jjtates in setting up an acceptable
3 program and if the program is acceptable the
4 states will be granted the permission or the
5 responsibility for carrying out the permitting
6 and enforcement provisions. To be approved
7 for this the state program will have to be
equivalent to the ^federal program and consistent
9 with other states' programs and contain adequate
10 enforcement provisions. Congress does not say
what equivalent, consistent and adequate are to
12 be. So that's another area in which there are
13 definitions which we're going to have to wrestle
14 with.
15 There's also a provision for the granting
16 of an interim authorization to the sfates which
have programs in existence three months after
the promulgation of these guidelines which
lo
translates to sometime in the summer of 1978.
These interim authorizations would be for some
21 two years.
22 The next slide, please. I mentioned
earlier the requirement for notification three
L.O
24 months after the promulgation of the standards
25 relative to hazardous waste identification.
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1 That's after we have published what the criteria
2 are to be for what is and what is not a hazardous
3 waste. Three months after that point all
4 generators, transporters, treaters, and disposers
5 of hazardous waste must notify EPA or the
6 state program of their existence. There are a
7 few issues surrounding that. For example, how
8 do we, EPA or the^tates, try to reach all these
9 people who must comply with this provision? How
10 do we let them know and how do we publicize this?
11 Any thoughts you have on that matter would be
12 welcome.
13 Section 3011 relates to monies which are
14 to be available to assist the states in developing
15 and implementing the programs which would be
16 equivalent and consistent with the federal programs
17 Now, 25 million dollars has been authorized in
18 the Act to do this for each of the two years, but
19 as George Garland said earlier and which he'll
20 touch on later, this money has not yet been
21 authorized and appropriated.
22 That's the hazardous waste provisions
23 of the Act in a very brief form. In the back
24 of the room, as you came in this morning, you
25 may have picked up a copy of this little sheet
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1 here. This lists the issues, some of which
2 I've mentioned today, and some other ones which
3 we are facing. We sincerely want your thinking
4 on this. If you have not yet picked one of
5 these up I urge you to do so. If you have any
6 thoughts on these matters, please let us know.
7 I'm here to answer any questions now or
8 take any thoughts that you might have.
9 MR, OSCAR ADAMS: I would suggest to
10 you that under 3010 and for Virginia, you come
H and talk to our toxic substances people. We've
12 had some experience in trying to find out the
13 locations of toxic materials. We've had a little
14 bit of difficulty or there seems to be a little
15 difference in the definition of hazardous materials
16 and toxic substances. And that's in this Act.
17 I think we have some experience that would be
18 most helpful to you.
19 MR. FRED LINDSAYi Thank you. You have
20 mailing lists and things of that nature?
21 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: This is the way we
22 have gone about contacting industry within the
23 jrtate and some of the problems that we've run
24 into. Some of the results that we've gotten
25 back might show you some of the problems that
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1 you're going to run into in that section.
2 The other thing that you keep talking
3 about or we keep hearing in your presentations
4 is this "we." I'm wondering who "we" is? Is
5 that just EPA, on the water side of the problem
6 or are you really wanting to get with the states
7 and have their participation in the formulation
8 of these various regulations? Because in the
9 water program and the implementation at the present
10 time, there's a close operation, operations are
n close between the ^tate and EPA as far as water
12 programs are concerned. And the ^tate personnel
13 are working close with EPA in groups and we've
14 been able to come out with meaningful regulations
15 that we both can live with.
16 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Okay. Let me Just
address that very briefly. You mentioned "we",
lg we means, when we say "we" we mean it in the
1n broadest sense. Let me see if I can develop
iy
„„ that a little further. In the act of preparing
21 regulations within EPA, the lead office is
22 designated and it's up to the lead office to
23 coordinate that. We are the lead office, we
24 meaning the solid waste office. It says right
25 in the Act that we're to be the lead office. But
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1 you're right, there is such a thing as working
2 groups. Working groups are working under the
3 hazardous waste area for each of these separate
4 sections that we've talked about this morning.
5 These working groups are made up of various people
6 from the rest of the agencies-. For example,
7 number one, there are representatives for the
8 water pollution control people and the air
9 pollution control people and they, whose responsibility
10 it is to guide and give advice and help to
n coordinate the development of the regulations,
12 The working groups are just beginning to be
13 organized and we do have jsfate participation
14 on a number of those working groups. It's been
15 very helpful so far,
16 In the broader sense when I say *we I'd
17 like to include and I think the agencies would
18 like to include essentially, anyone that is
19 interested. Now, we can't have working groups
20 which consist of a thousand or tens of thousands
21 of people. But on the other hand we are seriously
22 interested in receiving your input and that's
23 why, for example, these participating meetings
24 such as this are being organized. That's why
25 they're being organized so early on in the
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i program. That's why we're just getting started
2 in the process right now. That's why we are
3 definitely interested in this input and comments
4 and advice on this issue. There will be other
5 means of reaching people to obtain this information
6 other than just these types of meetings.
AAi6>Rei
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1 hazardous waste program so that they can continue,
2 under the law, to continue functioning during
3 that period. The only requirement is that it
4 be substantially equivalent to the federal program.
5 Again, full authorization requires
6 equivalent and interim authorization requires
1 substantially equivalent and neither one of those
8 terms are identified.
9 Now, we expect to be relatively lenient,
10 although that's not really the word I wanted, but
11 we expect to bend over backwards in this sense,
12 in defining what substantially equivalent is.
13 That's because our desire is to turn this program
14 over. Now, to explain a little more or expand
15 a little more and I may have explained this or I
16 may not have, but the interim authorization is
17 for a period of two years. Which assuming the
18 time frame, which is indicated in the Act, it
19 would be roughly from October 21, 1978 to
20 October 21, 1980. After that time to continue
21 with the ^tate or with the program}the ^tate
22 would have to, the state program would have to
23 be judged equivalent, consistent, or fully
24 adequate in that sense of the word. That's all
25 I can tell you at this point.
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1 MR. SAM MOBtKAS-; Coming from a_state
2 that does have a hazardous substance act, a state
3 act which, well, am I correct in interpreting
4 that EPA must issue guidelines before any interim
5 authorization is given or can we come in to you
6 at the point that we are, at least in our minds,
7 determined that we do have a substantial program
8 and say, this is our program would you approve it?
9 Can you give me an answer to that? Or do we wait
10 until '78 or 1980? That's what I'm asking?
11 MR. FRED LINDSAY: I'm not sure I can
12 give y°u a definitive answer on that. But before
13 we could judge, and we would have to be able to
14 judge the program as substantially equivalent to
15 give interim authorization. Until we could come
16 up with what substantially equivalent is there's
17 no way that we could make a judgment on that,
18 So I don't want to discourage you at this point,
19 from coming in for interim authorization. But
20 I'm — I don't offhand, know how we could judge
21 it before, until that time.
22 On the other hand, Sam, I might point out
23 to you that if you do have some concern relative
24 to the development or any state does relative to
25 the development of a program, we can certainly
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1 talk at this point, about what we think might be
2 equivalent and consistent and things of that nature
3 until or at any time.
4 MR. ROLAND DORER: As I read the Act
5 the state plan will have to have a manifest
6 system and this means that it starts with the
7 originator and goes through transportation and
8 final disposal. It appears to me that if it
9 starts with the originater this is going to have
10 to be done at the federal level because many of
11 these materials will be originating in one state
12 and ending up in another state. I don't see how
13 the jjtate program can cover this. It appears
14 to me it's going to have to be done at the national
15 level.
16 MR. FRED LINDSAY: You're addressing one
Yl of the questions that I read off a little earlier.
18 Should the manifest system be a uniform system
19 nationally or, I think your point is well taken.
20 It's going to have to be consistent from one jtate
21 to the other. It may not have to be necessarily
22 in the exact same form.
23 MR, ROLAND DORER: You can't get fifty
24 consistencies, it's going to have to be one. It
25 appears, I'm trying to answer the question and
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1 I think it's going to have to be done at the
2 national level. That's the originater.
3 MR. FRED LINDSAY: In other words we
4 would design the form and so forth, and it would
5 be then, that would be the system in that
6 regard then. Well, we'll be setting standards
7 for that and if we set them very tightly then
8 that would be, that would mean exactly what you're
9 saying.
10 The only experience that I have, relative
u to the manifest system, that sort of thing where
12 I'm informed on it is the California system.
13 Even in that ^tate,the jytate requires certain
14 things beyond the manifest system and the manifest
15 system will operate in a certain manner. But the
16 forms do vary even within that state. They vary
somewhat. The same materials and the same
lg requirements appear on the form but there is
different places and some have, more or less.
„ questions on them. But it's up to that^state,
21 in that state I believe it's the transporter who
22 actually pays for the, for preparing the form
23 and so forth.
24 MR. ROBERT MANN: I'm Robert Mann with
25 the State Air Pollution Control Board. We are
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1 delegated the authority to enforce the regulations,
2 the EPA regulations under Section 112 of the Act,
3 hazardous air pollution. Part of that is the
4 enforcement of requirements that demolition people
5 dispose of asbestos as a hazardous material in
certain types of dumps. We find that our problem
is that no one officially will say that they
accept any hazardous materials because they don't
9 want to spend the necessary money to comply. So
10 what are you going to do when no one wants it?
11 MR. FRED LINDSAY: That's a good question.
12 There are, however you may not have found them,
13 there are at this point, a number of facilities
14 and some are good and maybe some are not so good.
15 But there are some places in the business of
16 accepting, for a fee and under a contract normally,
17 hazardous wastes for detoxification, incineration,
18 or disposal of one form or another. There are
19 a number of them and there are not as many as
20 are going to be required. And that's one of
21 the problems which I mentioned earlier, that's
22 a problem that we're facing as a country. How
23 do we go about citing these particular facilities?
24 Yes, we, EPA are mandated to come up with standards
25 f0r what's a good facility or what is not a good
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i facility. But that doesn't generate good
2 facilities. That does not insure that there
3 will be a facility in Virginia, whether it's two,
4 five, six or whatever is needed. One of the
5 major problems, as I think I indicated earlier,
6 is that we see the local, that there is going
7 to be local opposition to it. There will be
8 local opposition out of hand, to having one of
9 these facilities nearby. We don't know how that's
10 going to be faced or what we, as a federal agency
11 or the state government can do to impact upon
12 this. We'd like to have some things on that too.
13 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: You keep saying sites,
14 This bothers me somewhat. In fact, due to the
15 fact that I believe you mentioned there's going
16 to be a whole rash of these different means of
Yl disposing of these hazardous wastes. You could
18 very easily be creating the impression that there's
19 going to be a burial operation. I don't believe
20 it's going to be a burial operation in view of
21 the fact that Public Law 92-500 and 93-523, because
22 both of those laws provide for the protection of
23 groundwater. Aren't you, aren't you speaking of
24 all types and modes of disposal?
25 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Yes. typically th«
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1 disposal of hazardous wastes at this point,
2 consists of, there are a number of different
3 techniques. There are different treatment
4 techniques which are, the main purpose of which
5 is to either detoxify the materials through
decomposing it or degrading it or otherwise
7 immobilizing the material, the hazardous material.
So this takes the form, treatment facilities take
8
the form of incineraters typically, chemical
treatment plant type operations typically and
oxidation reduction and so forth, as well as
land disposal facilities. So here again, when
I talk sboMt land disposal the Act is very clear.
lo
That the standards that we develop under
Section 3004 are to address groundwater protection,
lo
surface water protection, protection of other
ID
media. Air and protection of, from radiation
17
and so forth. So I don't mean to give the
18
impression that we're going out and bury everything
MR. JOHN HESTON: Does this cover the
20
disposal of nuclear wastes generated from
2i\
government or utility companies?
MR. FRED LINDSAY: Okay. Most nuclear
23
wastes are controlled under the Atomic Energy
Act of 1954. They're regulated by the Nuclear
25
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i Regulatory Commission. On the other hand there
2 are certain radioactive wastes which are not
3 controlled by the Atomic Energy Act. They will
4 be covered under this Act. This includes such
5 things as radium and things like that. I believe
6 it covers the phosphate slime problem in Florida.
7 Possibly the radioactive overburden problem that
8 exists in Colorado. I'm not certain of those
9 but as I read the Act I would assume that. There
10 are certain other radioactive materials such as
11 materials which are generated in cyclotrons
12 and accelerators that would be covered under
13 this act.
14 UNIDENTIFIED: How are substances added
15 to the hazardous waste act or hazardous waste list
16 after the initial eighteen month period?
17 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Okay. The basic way
18 in which a waste become hazardous or nonhazardous
19 is by comparing its characteristics to the criteria
20 There will be standardized test methods set up
21 for doing this. It's up to the generator to
22 determine whether or not his waste is hazardous.
23 The Act also requires us to develop a list and
24 that list will consist of typical examples of
25 what is and what is not hazardous. On the other
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i hand, let me go on before I get off of that track,
2 I suspect that the list will continue to be
3 developed as we go along. There are many, many
4 different types of waste. They are not usually
5 pure compounds. They are usually sludges and
6 such. They vary from one plant to the next plant.
7 So the listing part of this will, I think, continue
8 to grow as we go along. As we identify more and
9 more wastes which meet or fail the criteria. In
10 addition there's a provision in here, in Section
11 3001, for a petition by the governor of the atate
•e^ ~Z-~-
12 to have a material or a waste added to the system
13 directly. Just exactly how that's going to
14 work at this point, I cannot say. We have to
15 study that further.
16 There's also one other thing I might
17 point out, in the Act, and this is something
18 that's written in there by Congress, that there's
19 a provision for updating of the regulations and
20 guidelines and standards on a three-year basis.
21 That this be done.
M odfk'K
22 MR. SAM MeBiKftST Fred, we all know,
23 I think, that the Toxic Substances Control Act
24 also becomes effective by the same time as the
25 Resource Conservation and Recovery Act does.
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l And the Toxic Substances Control Act will more
2 likely involve a lot of substances that will
3 become hazardous wastes. Has there been some
4 kind of mechanism set up, some kind of
5 communication mechanism set up within EPA which
6 will somehow bring these two activities in close
7 harmony?
8 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Yes, this Toxic
9 Substances Control Act is oriented toward product
10 development usage^et cetera, as opposed to the
11 disposal of hazardous waste which is what this
12 particular Act is all about. That's what it's
13 oriented toward. I think someone last night
14 mentioned that they thought there was some
15 overlapping between these two acts and there
16 possibly is; in that the Toxic Substances Act
17 can control certain disposal options in certain
18 ways. Where that's being done, and typically
19 the Toxic Substances Office, the Office of
20 Toxic Substances has dealt very closely with us
21 on that as their developing PCB regulations
22 relative to the disposal aspects of that. Then
23 as I pointed out earlier, there are these work
24 groups and the work groups. The work groups for
25 any act development include people from both
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1 offices so that we can insure that there is
2 coordination going on. There is people from
3 the Office of Toxic Substances on our£CRA work
4 groups and we have people on their work groups.
5 So coordination is going forward. It's convenient
6 in that the two acts passed almost at the same time
7 So it gives us an opportunity to really coordinate
g the two.
9 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: In talking ahout the
10 hazardous substances, how many substances do
n you expect to have on that list and how are you
12 going to go about determining them?
13 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Under the list,
•fr
14 under oar—CRS?
15 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: Yes.
16 MR. FRED LINDSAY: We'll be developing
17 the criteria and then once the criteria are
18 developed then we'll be letting a contract to
19 take a look at the various types of waste materials
20 and determine whether or not they pass or fail
21 the criteria. Then that will be used to develop
22 the list. That's the approach we see at this
23 particular point.
24 Now, I think another facet of your
25 question might be, will the list consist of
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1 substances like hexachlorabenzine or PCB or
2 will it consist of waste like maybe heavy metal
3 hydroxide waste from maybe electroplating plants.
4 That has not been determined yet. Any thinking
5 you might have on that which you'd rather see or
6 how you'd rather have it done, we'd certainly
7 be interested in hearing from you on that,
8 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: I think you're in a
9 very difficult area.
10 MR, FRED LINDSAY: I agree.
n MR. OSCAR ADAMS: You're in an area,
12 for example, table salt is not particularly
13 toxic in the normal way we use it but we have &
14 plant that's discharging 75 tons a day and it
15 certainly will do damage to the environment.
16 Under the definition of hazardous material here
17 you have a hazardous material being disposed of.
18 Now, how are you going to bring in all these
19 substances? How are you going to handle this
20 list and get the ones that are really doing
21 something, it's kind of hard for me to see.
22 MR. FRED LINDSAY: It's a tough problem.
23 MR, OSCAR ADAMS: It's difficult for
24 me to see.
25 MR. FRED LINDSAY: I agree with you.
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1 Our Intention or at least the Act mandates, in the
2 Act it says we have to look at toxicity and by
3 looking at that we're including, that we're to
4 include toxicity. And in so doing what we'll
5 have to do is set some sort of a level and some
6 sort of scale. Whether that will be something
7 like LD-50 or some other level I don't know.
But that's one of the things that we are going to
have to do within the next few months,
10 MR, MICHAEL DIEM: Sort of relating to
11 this, you said you wanted our views and comments
12 and input. I know you want it at this meeting
13 and I know you want an ad hoc committee and
14 advisory group. But what I'm thinking about is
15 how do you want our comments or input, for
16 example, within the next few weeks. If we
17 think of something and it really represents our
18 view on one of these subjects, and we don't have
19 a meeting, how do you want this input early on in
20 the program?
21 MR. FRED LINDSAY: All right. There are
22 a variety of techniques and the easiest one is
23 for you to write your thoughts down on a piece
24 of paper and send it to Sheldon Meyers at that
25 address or send it to me. If you want to send
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i it to me or see me after the meeting I can read
2 off a list of names and telephone numbers of
3 people who are responsible for the various sections
4 of this Act. You can then deal with them directly
5 relative to your thoughts on this matter. Or you
6 can send it to Region 3 and we'll funnel it through
7 That's a good approach too. Send it to Region 3
8 too. Do you want to give the phone numbers of
9 those people there?
10 MR. CHARLES HOWARD: We have a series of
u phone numbers that you can reach us by.
12
13 NOTE: Mr. Howard gives out phone
14 numbers and addresses for those desiring to
15 submit comments.
16
MR. FRED LINDSAY: I might also add that
we will be publishing in the Federal Register,
a more detailed set of issues and so forth of
the type that you've got back there now that you
21 can pick up, Hoperully within the next month
22 they will be published again and there will be
a formal comment period. There's an open docket
£
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l a series of small meetings and large meetings
2 relative to the various people who have had some
3 interest or shown interest in this particular thing
4 We have discussed things on a small group basis.
5 MR. JOHN HESTON: If it's left up to the
6 generater to determine whether or not he is
7 disposing or polluting with hazardous waste, what
8 kind of incentives or controls do you have to see
9 that he does that are built in?
10 MR. FRED LINDSAY: It's not up to him
11 to decide whether or not his wastes are polluted,
12 It's up to him to decide whether or not his wastes
13 meet the criteria for what is a hazardous waste.
14 And through using standardized tests because he
15 happens to know the characteristics of the wastes
16 already. If the wastes are then hazardous then
17 it's his responsibility so see to it that they go
18 to a permitted facility. Whether it be his own
19 permanent facility or some contracted facility.
20 It's also his responsibility to initiate then,
21 the manifest system which is called for there.
22 But what I'm saying is that once he makes the
23 determination that his waste is hazardous then
24 it enters the system and he must also notify us
25 as the Act mentions, ninety days after the
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1 promulgation of the standards for what Is and what
2 is not hazardous, he must notify us that he does
3 generate hazardous waste. Those are the
4 provisions.
5 Now, relative to the enforcement and
6 that's another whole issue. How does one enforce
7 and what enforcement mechanisms are available.
8 This is an area that is being developed by a
9 different branch of the agency. It seems that
10 there are three basic enforcement provisions though
11 One had to do with the permit system. If a
12 facility has a permit and then later it's found
13 out that they're violating the permit or been
14 negligent in meeting the standards then the
15 permit, of course, his permit would be removed.
16 There are provisions for that. There's also
!7 provisions for, if violations of the Act are found,
18 there's a provision under Section, one of the
19 enforcement provisions in here called Compliance
20 Orders. Section 3008. That provides for fines
21 and penalties.
22 There's also the citizens suit provision
23 where any citizen can bring suit to enforce the
24 Act and then they can bring suit either on EPA
25 or the disposer or the treater or whatever. Are
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there any other questions?
2
3 NOTE: No response.
4
. MR. GEORGE GARLAND: The Resource
O
Conservation and Recovery Act, to a large extent,
b
closes the loop or at least starts to close the
loop. The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act
has provisions for land disposal protection or
for just land protection. Like I said, it starts
to close the loop. We have a Clean Air Act,
we have a Federal Water Pollution Control Act
12
and now we have an act which deals with land
lo
disposal in a very broad way. This Act affects
15 just about everything that goes on on the land that
is not covered by the other two acts. I'd like
16
to read to you the disposal definition and some
17
of the different definitions which will help to
18
make this point.
The disposal means the discharge, deposits,
20
21 injection and dumping, spilling, leaking or placing
of any solid waste or hazardous waste into or on
any land or water so that solid waste or hazardous
23 J
waste or any constituents thereof, may enter the
environment or be admitted into the air or
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1 discharged into any waters including groundwater.
2 The gentleman mentioned earlier that Public Law
3 92-500 and Public Law 93-523, the Safe Drinking
4 Water Act, they both refer to groundwater protectior
5 and so does the Resource Conservation and Recovery
6 Act very explicitly.
7 Now, the definition of an open dump and
8 the definition of a sanitary landfill both refer
9 to criteria to be promulgated under Section 4004
10 which I'll get into in a minute in more detail,
11 But it should be pointed out in our thinking of
12 what we mean by open dump, we have to begin to
13 think about something like a pit that has
14 industrial liquid in it. It's been called an
15 evaporation pond in the past. Unfortunately
16 probably about thirty inches of water that
17 infiltrates over some sand and that sand is over
18 a prime aquifer and that prime aquifer is getting
19 probably heavy metals from an electroplating plant
2Q or what have you. This kind of practice is
2i fairly common. In fact in our report to Congress
22 we point out that that kind of practice probably
23 contributes about as much contamination as all
24 the landfills in the United States.
25 Now, the definition of solid waste means
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1 any garbage, refuse, sludge from a wastewater
2 treatment plant, water supply treatment plant,
3 or air pollution control facility and other
4 discarded materials, including solids, liquids,
5 semisolids, or contained gaseous material
6 resulting from industrial, commercial, mining,
7 and agricultural operations, and some community
8 activities, but does not include solid or
g dissolved material in domestic sewage, or solid
10 or dissolved materials in irrigation return flows
11 or industrial discharges which are point sources
12 subject to permits under Section 402 of the
13 Federal Water Pollution Control Act, as amended,
14 or source, special nuclear, or byproduct material
15 as defined by the Atomic Energy Act of 1954.
16 So we have a definition for solid waste but it
17 is very, very broad.
18 Now, Section 4004 calls for us to issue
19 and promulgate criteria for sanitary landfills
20 within one year. These are to be issued within
21 one year and contain criteria and classifications
22 for sanitary landfills and open dumps. In
23 particular a sanitary landfill does not have a
24 reasonable probability of adverse effects or
25 putting it another way, an open dump has a
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1 reasonable probability of producing an adverse
2 effect. Now, the Act does not define reasonable
3 probability and it does not define adverse effect.
4 These are two issues that will be wrestled with
5 over the next nine months or eight months because
the one year started last October.
This Act or section of the Act also
requires that all disposals to be in sanitary
9 landfills in accordance with state plans which
10 are to be or which are required to contain
11 provisions for developing a means or insure that
12 all wastes go to sanitary landfills. Again,
13 sanitary landfills is a very broad term including
14 ponds or lagoons that did not contaminate
15 groundwater in an adverse way.
16 Now, after the publication of criteria
there will be an inventory of open dumps. This
inventory is to be completed within twelve months
19 at which time EPA will publish a list of open
dumps in the United States by name. This section
21 calls for a closing or upgrading of these open
22 dumps immediately if there is a suitable
„, alternative and if the state plan is in accordance
Zo
24 with the compliance schedule which will be
25 developed and which will be published as part of
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1 the state plan. If no such suitable alternative
2 exists and the ^state is planning, in compliance
3 with our criteria for state planning, then the
4 state can agree to a compliance schedule for
5 each of the open dumps in the jtate. This
6 schedule can take a maximum of five years after
7 the list of open dumps is published. So that
8 each state plan then will have a published
"^^, "^
9 compliance schedule for every open dump and
10 there will be an inventory.
n Suppose then that the jjpate does not
12 choose to plan, what happens then? Well, the
13 citizen supervision, which I mentioned earlier,
14 Section 7002, calls for the polluter, if he is
15 proved to be a polluter, to pay for the court cost
16 of the suit. So for example, the aggrieved
17 party could take the list of open dumps into
18 federal court and say close it and if the jitate
19 is not planning then the five year grace period
2Q does not apply and it depends on how the federal
2i judge feels about it, it could be closed over a
22 much shorter time schedule.
23 Now, relating to these criteria are the
24 publication of guidelines. These guidelines
25 are meant to be descriptive and helpful ways of
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1 showing what is being done now and what its
2 technical description is and what its economic
3 description is and what the level of performance
4 is. These are the kind of guidelines due within
5 twelve months. Within twenty-four months we'll
6 require to publish guidelines that give a level
7 of performance and a level of control. These
guidelines will describe a. level of performance
including appropriate methods and degrees of
10 control that provide a minimum protection of the
11 public health and welfare; protection of the
12 quality of groundwaters and surface waters from
13 leachates, protection of the quality of surface
14 waters from runoff through compliance with
15 effluent limitations under the Federal Water
16 Pollution Control Act, as amended; protection of
17 ambient air quality through compliance with
new source performance standards or requirements
19 of air quality implementation plans under the
2Q Clean Air Act, as amended; disease and vector
21 control; safety; and aesthetics. Now, it's all
22 of these considerations that we'll be dealing
23 with and will be included in the criteria that
24 are published under Section 4004. It's here
25 in the guidelines that we'll give various
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1 alternatives for dealing with the issues and
2 criteria raised,
3 For example, in protecting groundwater
4 there will be three or four different groundwater
5 strategies adopted by the various states that we
6 feel adequately protect the groundwater. Each
7 of these would be detailed in the guidelines and
8 the states will be free to choose one of these
9 strategies for protecting groundwater or come
10 up with their own strategy.
11 Now, Section 1008 (c) calls for criteria
12 for open dumping. These criteria are going to
13 be published in the same package with the criteria
14 for sanitary landfills. So there will be one
15 package that says criteria for sanitary landfill
16 and open dumping. One of the difficulties with
17 this guideline section is that it does not say
18 which guideline is to be published. We have,
19 right now, intentions on updating the land
20 disposal guidelines and to have an appendices to
21 those guidelines. The first appendices will be
22 for municipal solid waste. Perhaps another
23 appendix will be for sludge disposal and this
24 will be basically a new guideline for us to,
25 having to do with land disposition of the sludge.
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1 Then perhaps in the future we'll have guidelines
2 on things like fish ponds and lagoons, I don't
3 have as much technical information on them right
4 now but we have to begin to get that kind of
5 information in state-of-the art studies and other
kinds of demonstrations.
Are there any questions about the land
disposal provisions of the Resource Conservation
9 and Recovery Act?
10 MR. JOHN HESTON: I note in this entire
Act that it always provides first for recovery
12 and second for disposal. I'm wondering what
13 kind of provisions are built into this Act that
14 will help encourage recovery instead of disposal?
15 In other words, oftentimes too much effort is
16 spent on activities of let's get rid of something
17 rather than looking into or providing for research
lg for new methods of recovery. Another aspect of
19 that might be, there might be a process where you
could pulverize the waste material and I think
21 it can be left open on the land and cannot in a
22 sanitary landfill and be reutilized as compost
23 and it does not never have to be covered daily
24 as is required in a sanitary landfill. Those
25 kinds of things.
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1 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Thank you very much
2 for your remarks. Steve Ltngle will be dealing
3 with resource recovery and the provisions of the
4 Act dealing with it in the next presentation.
5 I should point out that in Section 4005, where
6 it talks about closing open dumps, it says, if a
7 resource recovery or a conservation method or
8 adequate disposal methods are available it should
9 be used. So there is a recognition in the Act
10 that this is one of the options that you should
ti be considering as land disposal becomes more
12 conscious and people engage in land disposal and
13 which they will become more conscious of all the
14 issues which will be raised in our criteria. So
15 that if possible that the practice will become
16 more expensive and this will lead to the full
17 environmental costs being paid for and that may
lg make resource recovery more attractive.
19 You talked about, I have to mention that
20 when you grind up solid waste what happens to the
21 leachates, the leachate is the water that
22 perculates through the solid waste and may end
23 up in the groundwater or the surface water or
24 it may be a combination of both or it may be
25 groundwater first and then to the surface water.
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1 It turns out that the leachates comes up much
2 faster and much stronger when you pulverize the
3 waste. So you haven't done away with your leachate
4 problem. You may have done away with your aesthetl
5 problem and your vector problem and these are the
6 kinds of things that were focused on in the past.
7 Daily coverage is an essential part of a lot of
land disposal operations but primarily from the
9 standpoint of vectors and aesthetics and keeping
10 solid wastes from being an attractive nuisance
from children, that sort of thing. It is not a
12 solution to the leachate problem necessarily.
13 If the covered material is tightly compacted
14 and sloped properly it can help to minimize the
15 leachate production. But certainly not as an
16 adequate solution.
I guess what I want to underscore is that
this Act comes out four-square in mentioning
lo
groundwater protection. This is an issue that
„ may not have been dealt with adequately in the
20
21 past and there's been a lot of sites that look
22 great but are open dumps. That may cause a lot
of people to have their stomachs churned especially
Zo
24 if they've got a million bucks invested in one
25 of these facilities. Nevertheless, we intend to
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1 begin to raise the issue of groundwater protection
2 through this Act.
3 DR. ROBERT TESTIN: As I understand your
presentation you are considering a much broader
5 definition of landfill and open dump than we might
6 have considered in the past, i.e., in the past
7 sanitary landfill is something that's compacted
and covered with dirt and so forth and an open
9 dump is one that is not dealing primarily with
10 what we would call domestic and commercial wastes
11 of one kind or the other, with perhaps a different
12 criteria for industrial waste. Now that we're
13 dealing with the traditional solid wastes in the
14 past. Now you're going to broaden that
15 substantially in your guidelines as I understand
16 it? Is that correct?
17 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: The criteria will
18 apply broadly to the disposal of solid waste and,
19 of course, those definitions are quite broad.
20 Then the guidelines that get into specific ways
2i of dealing with those criteria will be phased.
22 It's possible that the state, because they can't
23 bite off the broad range of disposal practices
24 or broad range of waste types, will also phase.
25 It may be that we'll be asking Congress for
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1 permission to be able to phase the inventory
2 so we don't have to do something that's unworkable.
3 DR. ROBERT TESTIN: You answered my
4 question. You're answering my question and in
5 other words you may not, in your inventory, attempt
to bite off the entire definition in the twelve
months? Is that a reasonable assumption?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: From my personal
point of view, to try to bite off everything at
10 once would be a good way to insure that the Act
didn't work.
12 DR. ROBERT TESTIN: You answered my
13 question.
14 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: But on the other
15 hand I think it's encumbent upon the jjtate to
16 show how they plan to cover our waste disposal
17 practices, to consider all waste disposal practices
lg over some period of time. It might be a
lg considerable period of time. But we're not —
20 we don't intend to just say we're going to focus
2i on landfill and forget everything else.
22 DR. ROBERT TESTIN: Could I ask then,
23 if that is your intent to broadly define through
24 the guidelines landfills and open dumps, where
25 in the Act is the provision for a, let's say, a
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phase-in inventory program? I don't really
2 understand how.
3 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: There is none.
4 This is something that if we get a lot of
5 suggestions that it was a good thing then that
would be a good thing. The Congress does not
7 always foresee all the difficulties when it
passes an Act. This may be one area that was
9 overlooked.
1Q DR. ROBERT TESTIN: An alternative,
of course, is the more narrowly defined through
the guidelines, your landfill open dumps?
MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes, that is an
lo
alternative. Well, I'm not sure that that is
15 an alternative because the criteria are quite
broad in what they say you should do and the
definitions of land disposal and solid waste are
quite broad. So it's not clear that that is a
18
legal option to just say that we're going to
focus on, say, what traditionally has been a
20
21 landfill.
I'd like to introduce Ed Hockman who's
in the audience. He's kind of a pioneer in
23
2- the field of groundwater protection and has done
a lot of work on documenting what happened to
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i groundwater and when you do various things.
2 That's presently with VPI.
3 MR. GEORGE SMITH: When you're planning
4 regional facilities that are being planned in
5 the planning stage, will this be forced upon
6 those jurisdictions to provide for hazardous
7 waste disposal for that region?
8 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: No, what I'm talking
9 about is the nonhazardous waste and the definition
10 of hazardous waste, whatever that is, will
11 determine what is left to go to conventional sites.
12 So there is an interaction between our definition
13 of hazardous waste and what will probably be
w kept out of the traditional disposal sites,
15 MR. GEORGE SMITH: But I'm saying is
16 this material is produced within the area and
17 used within the area by the manufacturer, his
18 customer, will the disposal facility be a land
19 disposal facility within that area so to speak,
20 will they be required to take care of his residue?
2i MR, GEORGE GARLAND; I don't think so.
22 No, if I understand your question correctly.
23 No, the person generating the solid waste or
24 the hazardous waste, in this case, will be
25 required to get that waste to a permitted hazardous
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i waste facility. That may mean transporting it
2 to California. Hopefully the economic situation
3 will help to drive the development of the
4 hazardous waste industry.
5 MR. GEORGE SMITH: What you're saying
6 is that it's his ball?
7 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes.
MR. FRED LINDSAY: There's no requirement
in the Act, that local jurisdictions handle
10 hazardous waste. It would be up to them to
decide.
12 MR, J. L, THOMAS: As I understand it
13 open dumps now include lagooning ponds and the
way I read it here is that open dumps are to be
15 phased out within a period of not to exceed five
16 years. Now, it's common practice for utilities
17 and industrial power houses to, from coal burning
lg operations into so-called flash lagoons. What's
19 the intent, is there an intent to phase out these
2Q operations?
2i MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay, if I understand
22 your question, I don't know that I heard it all.
23 But it's been pointed out to me that it's also
24 common practice in the steel industry to put
25 some of their liquids in ponds and I have been told
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l that if I get aggressive about this I could
2 shut down the steel industry in America. I
3 really don't think I would be able to do that/.
4 but I think I could or I do have the responsibility
5 to raise the issue. To begin to get utilities
6 and the steel industry and electroplating plants
7 and so forth, to begin to get them to come up
8 with a process of coming up with better
9 alternatives. In some cases, in the mining
10 industry in the southwest, when people had to
11 line lagoons they found they saved water and
12 saved their money. It's possible that other
13 industries will find that once they really do
14 focus on what they're doing they may be able to
15 come up with economically and technically viable
16 alternatives and also protect the environment,
17 It's my intention not to try to shut down utilities
lg or shut down industries that are basic to our
19 economic life but my intention is to raise the
20 issues and force attention to it.
21 Now, it's not clear whether the kind of
22 operations you talked about would create a
23 substantial probability or an unreasonable
24 probability of an -adverse effect. That all
25 depends on how you define adverse effect. You
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i can see that you have a stake in that definition
2 and that you will participate with us when we're
3 defining that as we put out these criteria.
4 MR. OSCAR ADAMS; In the,jtate of
5 Virginia the s£ate already has a permitting
6 program unjer 92-500 for lagoons and places,
7 no discharge permits. And many of them are
8 already being regulated under that within this
9 state.
10 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: If that's the case
H then they would not be subject to the requirements
12 of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act.
13 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: Right, the two are
14 together or are overlapping in this instance
15 in this state at the present time then?
16 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes, that is the
17 case in some states.
17 (VUtf/eK*5
18 MR. SAM WffBXRKS; George, following up
19 on the earlier question and I guess I'd just like
20 to make a comment and this really isn't a
21 question. It's beginning to trouble us very
22 much in Maryland in the area of hazardous waste
23 treatment disposal and I guess I'm throwing it
24 out as something for EPA also to consider. That
25 is, before the regulations are in plac« some
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i thought and some active program, and I can't
2 guarantee or suggest ways at this point but it's
3 something to consider that what we call having
4 the site or having the capacity to take these
5 wastes is very much as important as the regulations
6 themselves. We're finding that we're marching
7 down the road and that they're coming with
8 regulations that are going to impact severely
9 on all of the people that are affected. We'll
10 be finding ourselves with the problem of not
l\ knowing what to do with these materials when you
12 have regulations that say you can't go there or
13 something else must be done to it. It's a
14 parallel type of problem that I want to raise
15 and I think it's a significant issue that needs
16 to be addressed at some point.
17 MR. GEORGE GARLAND; Yes.
l\'\ C tfk /^HJ>
18 MR. SAM mS&SiS: I don't know the
19 mechanism or the mechanics of it but it is a
20 critical issue.
21 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: It certain is.
22 It's kind of a resource issue. If you have a
23 limited amount of resources, maybe you should
24 not have a limited amount, but if you do you
25 have to focus on getting the regulations out and
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1 the paper work to the detriment of your work
2 in your demonstration projects, perhaps, which
3 would be showing how you can feasibly, technically,
and economically meet the requirements that are
5 going to be in the regulations. It's kind of
g a resource issue.
7 MS. JANICE CLARK: I'm Janice Clark
from the State of Maryland. I have a question
9 regarding how you plan to handle the different
10 kinds of sludge. Concerning the Blue Plains
and Washington Flood and --
12 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay. At this
13 meeting I'm supposed to be getting your comments
14 and how you think we should be dealing with the
15 issues. But I've already broken those rules so
I might as well do it again. In the area of
17 sludge land spreading we intend to — our one
18 option is to have criteria for the sludge and
19 if it meets certain criteria you can put it on
the land without any further bother. If it's
in another range you may have to take special
22 precautions when you put it on the land. You
2g may have to put lime on the land along with the
24 sludge because if it has a high PH then the heavy
25 metal uptake or the leaching of the heavy metals
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1 Is minimized. There may be some level of
2 contaminants in the sludge for which we would
3 say you must put that sludge in some kind of
4 disposal facility. So that's the kind of
5 approach that we have in mind.
6 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: We feel that the
7 time has come for the sludge to be treated as a
8 resource and we should move in terms of composting
9 operations.
10 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: We, as a program,
11 we're supporting a composting demonstration up
12 in Bangor, Maine, It's the very first one
13 and our program is very small but sometimes we
14 do something very aggressive and right and I
15 think this is one time we did. However, we
16 must guard against the situation where we say
17 if you put it on the land and grow crops on it
18 all of a sudden it's chocolate candy. It's
19 not necessarily a good thing to do. I agree that
2Q there are going to be cases where it is going to
21 be a good thing to do but we can't say, we cannot
22 b* 8O zealous in pursuit of resource recovery
23 options that we allow environmentally unsound
24 things to happen,
25 MR, SOL AGRAWAL: Our experience as far
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l as land spreading operations, it's a very good
2 thing.
3 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay, your
4 experience is with the Blue Plains sludge and
5 that's from the Washington area which has a
6 minimum of industry.
7 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: We do have a
requirement that you cannot grow crops for a
number of years.
10 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: There's a lot of
11 misinformation about, and misthoughts about
12 sludge. What is sludge and where it comes from.
13 If we look at our municipal sludge it's not just
14 coming from human sources. It reflects the
15 activities in the community and just this week
16 we found a community that had about twelve parts
17 per million of PCB's in their sludge. This is
certainly something to think about. So, then
19 you talk about heavy metals. Then you talk
2Q about protecting the groundwater, If you put the
21 sludge on the ground you're going to have to keep
22 doing it repeatedly and repeatedly. So at some
23 point you're going to have a nitrate problem.
24 It may not be the first time.
25 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: The thought on
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1 nitrates is that we check the level of nitrates
2 that the crop is expected to take up and make
3 that the limit.
4 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: That's true but if you
5 have a crop that you can use to take up the
6 nitrates, you get into again, with the Interstate
7 Commerce and animals. If you're putting your,
8 something in on that sludge that the animal is
9 taking up we can get mild magnification and then
10 you can get into problems. So you've got to
11 know the sludge that you're putting down on the
12 ground and be very careful with it.
13 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Absolutely.
14 MR. OSCAR ADAMS: It can be used but you've
15 got to take some care and some planning to do it.
16 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Yes, unfortunately
17 I don't believe there is enough attention to that.
18 There's a small band of men that USDA, Beltsville,
19 concerns themselves with this and they're doing a
20 fine job.
21 I think I'll cut my part off here and
22 we've got some time problems, and turn this over
23 to Steve Lingle.
24 MR. WILLIAM SCHREMP: Yes, let's take a
25 ten-minute break.
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1 NOTE: A ten-minute break is had,
2 whereupon, the hearing continues, viz:
3
4 MR. STEVE LINGLE: I'm Steve Lingle
5 and I'm going to begin this discussion on
resource recovery and conservation aspects of
it and you can flip over the slide if you would,
I'd like to sort of have everybody think back
to the opening remarks that were made this morning
10 by Mr. Earl Shiflett, the Secretary for Commerce
n and Industry for the State of Virginia. I think
12 his remarks were such as to set the proper
13 frame work for considering these provisions of
14 the Act and indeed I am going to be talking about,
15 as he put it, ways available for substance
16 transformation and enhancement. But we call it
resource recovery and conservation.
lg I think it's important to realize that
resource recovery arid conservation is a technique
for achieving both of the major objectives of this
21 Act. Not only conservation and resources but
22 also preservation and enhancement of the
environment. The reason for that is very simply
24 that resource recovery and waste production provide!
25 alternatives to disposal and thereby provides a
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1 means of lessening the environmental impact of
2 improper disposal. It's also important to
3 realize, I think, that the disposal regulations
4 impact very positively on resource recovery and
5 conservation. They provide very important
6 j incentives for resource recovery and conservation,
Ji
7 as was mentioned briefly this morning. They will
8 in a sense, raise the cost of alternative means
9 of handling wastes. So the resource recovery
10 provisions sort of are woven into the overall
11 fabric of this Act.
12 First let me comment on some of the
13 provisions of the Act that contain resource
14 recovery provisions but which are not necessarily
15 exclusive to resource recovery and conservation.
16 Then after that I will talk about some of the
17 areas that do mandate or authorize specific kinds
lg of activities on resource recovery and conservation
19 Guidelines is a word that has been
2Q mentioned off and on this morning and guidelines
21 is the type of thing that can mean a lot of things
22 to different people. Sometimes it can be
23 confusing to the public but guidelines are
24 significant, at least the guidelines that are
25 authorized under Section 1008 in that they're
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1 mandatory for federal agencies. Federal agencies
2 must comply with it. To give you an example of
some kinds of the guidelines we've issued in the
4 past under previous authority which also contained
5 a guidelines provisions. In resource recovery
and conservation area we issued guidelines for
which, which required federal agencies to separate
their paper for recycling. Newspapers and
corrugated containers and high grade office paper.
We also developed guidelines which required
agencies, for federal agencies which generate
12 sufficient quantities of paper waste to take it
13 to a large scale resource and recovery facility
14 for recovery of energy and material.
15 Finally, a third guidelines requires
federal agencies to establish a minimum deposit
of five cents on beverage containers so that they
18 can be returned for recycling. So these are types
}9 of activities which have been carried out under
the guidelines on resource recovery in the past.
21 Under the new Act we will be working with federal
22 agencies to help implement those guidelines.
There is the potential of issuing additional
24 guidelines under this section.
25 The second item on the slide is resource
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1 recovery and conservation panel and I'll be
2 discussing this in more detail later on. This
is a technical assistance provision and it's
4 broader, even though it's called resource recovery
5 conservation panel. The provisions are broader
6 than that and they apply to the technical assistance
7 portion for both hazardous waste and traditional
land disposal. But I will be discussing them in
9 terms of their resource recovery impact in a few
10 minutes.
n The development of jvfate and local
12 programs, you heard a little bit about that this
13 morning and you'll hear a little bit more about
14 it from George Garland in just a few minutes,
15 I think it's important to recognize that the Act
16 clearly indicates its intent that state programs
consider resource recovery and conservation as
a major alternative. In fact the criteria for
18
EPA to use in determining whether state plans
19
were to be approved, one of them is that the
20
21 wastes in the state must either go to approved
sanitary landfill or must be recovered for reuse.
„„ Throughout the section of the Act it deals with
Zo
24 the state plans and it discusses the need for
25 states to consider resource recovery alternatives.
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1 One of the questions that we must deal with at
2 EPA, is how do we work with jsfates and what sort
of guidance do we give states to enable them to
4 include resource recovery and conservation
5 provisions in their state plan and programs.
6 The other two items up here I'll be touching
7 on one way or the other, as we go along,
One of the sections of the Act that does
9 deal specifically with resource recovery
10 conservation is Section 6002, It's a federal
procurement provision, In essence what this
12 section of the Act does is that within two years
13 the federal agencies must start to procure items
14 for products which contain the highest percentages
15 of recycled material practicable. It says the
lg same thing regarding energy. It says agencies
17 which are utilizing fossil fuel to generate
lg energy should try to use waste as an energy
19 source to the extent practicable. It also
,„ requires within eighteen months, federal agencies
21 review their specifications for purchase of
22 products and eliminate any discrimination
23 in those purchase of products and eliminate any
24 discrimination in those specifications, again,
25 products containing recycled materials. Now,
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1 this section of the Act requires that EPA write
2 guidelines and that the EPA guidelines are not
;' mandatory in themselves. The mandatory provisions
4 are spelled out directly in the Act as I just
5 reviewed. But EPA guidelines are intended to
6 help federal agencies comply with these requirements
7 For example, the words are somewhat vague in saying
8 that they should include the highest percentage
9 of recycled content and product which is practicable
10 It uses the words in there concerning available
11 supplies and costs as considerations that bear
12 on this. The purpose of the EPA guidelines is
13 to help define what is practicable and what is not
H and what sort of products are available which are
15 manufactured from secondary materials and that
16 sort of thing.
17 One of the most important issues in the
lg federal procurement guidelines is not the federal
19 procurement itself but the possibility that state
20 and local governments and industry will adopt
2i similar practices. It's a good example for the
22 federal government to do this but the federal
23 procurement alone is not large enough in magnitude
24 to really make a major market impact that would
25 increase the market for recycled material. So it'sj
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1 Important that the ^fates consider this and that
2 local governments and industry consider adopting
3 similar practices.
4 One of the questions or issues which we
5 must wrestle with and we would like to have some
6 input on this whole question, is the question of
7 determining exactly how and what is practicable
8 as defined in the Act for procurement. That's
9 going to be a rather nasty issue that we'll have
10 to deal with.
n The Act calls for several specific studies
12 that deal with resource recovery and conservation.
13 I'm not going to dwell on most of these but I do
14 want to point out a couple of them. We've done
15 studies in some of these areas in the past and
16 so these studies are not all together new. Howeve
reports to Congress having any recommendations for
lg legislation, which come out of the study, are
required under the section within two years.
m But a couple of studies mentioned here deal with
20
21 small scale low technology systems and front end
22 source separation, I think this indicates an
increasing awareness on the part of Congress of
£O
24 the viability of low technology, of the low
25 technology approach to resource recovery both
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1 small and large communities. Also the need for,
2 the specific need of small and rural communities
for resource recovery. This is not the only
4 section of the act where source separation is
5 emphasized. But it is emphasized in a special
6 study and they will provide the means for the
7 agency to place an additional focus in this
particular area of resource recovery, in addition
9 to the emphasis that's already been placed there.
10 One of the so-called special studies
under Section 8002, really is very much different
12 from the others, that is Resource Recovery
13 Conservation Committee. This section of the Act
14 is a response by Congress to the long recognized
15 problem that recycling has to compete in a somewhat
16 difficult in economic environment. I'm sure that
most of you have heard for a long time that we j
18 would recycle more if it were only economically
feasible to do so. One of the questions that,
2Q of course, one of the questions that was raised
21 is that there is more incentives available to
22 industry for the use of virgin materials than for
23 recycled materials. Will the Act stop short of
24 providing any specific incentives?
25 The last division on which I'd like to
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1 discuss the Act, is the, this is probably the
2 most important in regard to resource recovery and
this is the Resource-Recovery Conservation Panel.
4 This is a technical assistance provision, that's
5 what this means. The Congress calls it a panel
because they want to give it a special name and
special emphasis. They also require that twenty
percent of the authorizations for this Act be
9 applied to the technical assistance panel. It's
10 not only for resource recovery but it's for
hazardous waste technical assistance as well as
12 land disposal technical assistance. It was
13 put in the Act because of the testimony before
Congress by a lot of people that if you want to
15 encourage and expand implementation of resource
lg recovery then technical assistance is probably
one of the best ways you can do it. So Congress
17
did emphasize this section. As you can see here,
lo
the potential recipients are very broad in nature.
The teams are intended to include a
21 broad range of expertise. Technical, marketing,
financial, institutional and this is recognition
of the fact that probably in both resource
24 recovery and the solid waste area are not just
25 technical problems, there's a whole range of
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1 problems. These teams are composed of EPA
2 personnel, they can be composed of state and
3 local personnel and they can be consultants
4 who would be hired or provided to the city free
5 of cost. Something called peer matching which
6 allows a public official who's gone through the
7 process of say, implementing a resource recovery
8 experience to be paid for going to another town
9 and stating to them how he worked with this and
10 sort of explaining how he succeeded in doing his
n operation. Let me give you an example of the
12 kind of assistance which I think can be provided
13 here, whether by consultant or environmental
14 personnel or other. These consulting teams or
15 TA teams are there not, they're not intended to
16 take the place of the private consultants who
normally would be hired by the community. They're
... intended to supplement. For example, let's say
lo
a community had been considering their alternatives
for handling solid waste and had a feasibility
21 study conducted by a consultant and that feasibilit;
study listed several options for resource recovery
OQ as well as other options. Okay. One of the
Zo
24 technical assistance teams might work with them
25 in critiquing the feasibility study and
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l evaluating which one of those options perhaps,
2 looked best for that city. Maybe they would
help them follow up with a little bit more analysis
4 of those options. Let's say as a result of this
5 the city decides that it does want to pursue
6 resource recovery and that it wants to conduct,
7 well, whether it's a large scale system or a
source separation system or both. The consultant
9 can work with them to help them develop an-RST-f\"pP\
10 for procurement of such a system or work with
n them to set up a source separation system. Then
12 it can help them analyze the responses that they
13 would get to the proposal. Finally to work with
14 them in negotiating a contract with some supplier,
15 somebody that's going to supply a resource recovery
16 system. So these are the kinds of activities
which we envision being carried out by these
18 groups.
This last slide here, simply says that
Subtitle D of the Act, which is the state planning
21 provision, suggests that these technical assistance
teams be used to work with the states in
developing and implementing their state plans.
~^y^
So with that I think I'll open the floor
up to questions.
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1 DR. ROBERT TESTIN: Steve, on your study
2 for incentives and disincentives, are you going
to have any kind of ongoing programs to interact
4 with the states and private industry for input
5 or is this going to be a kind of ad hoc thing
6 or are you going to contract it or have you made
up your mind yet?
8 MR. STEVE LINGLE; Well, there is going
9 to be a definite opportunity for interaction. j
10 I'm sure that there will be some contracts to
n help analyze some of these economic and some of
]2 the effectiveness of some of these provisions.
13 But there is very definitely intended to be input
14 from a broad range of people who have an interest
15 in this. For example, there's going to be public
16 meetings just like this that are on this Resource
Conservation Committee and other mechanisms as well.
They have not all been established yet and this is
18
going to be established in the plan for carrying
out this portion of the Act. This is required to
21 Congress within six months with the passage of
22 the Act. Which means that it's due in about a
month or month and a half. That is definitely
24 the intent,
2 UNIDENTIFIED: We are in a situation
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right now on the peninsula area with regards to,
we have a feasibility study made for resource
conservation. But has there been any consideration
4 made or taken into account in the federal and
5 state programs about possibly or about the possible
6 guarantee of federal or state bodies as to
7 possible backing for some bonds that have to be
sold to build some of these facilities. I can see
9 down the road that that's going to be a problem
10 for us and somebody's going to probably have to
guarantee some of the bonds that we have to sell,
12 which is going to affect, frankly, our interest
13 rate?
14 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Yes, in the drafting
15 of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act
16 there was, up until the last or the latter days
17 of the Act just before it was passed, a provision
lg on it which provided authority for EPA to grant
19 loan guarantees for such facilities. However,
2Q this provision was removed before the Act was
21 passed. So there is now nojfederal loan guarantee
22 authority of the type you mention.
23 You are right in saying that in some cases
24 it's difficult to find financial resources or
25 financing for resource recovery systems. But
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i frankly the reason Congress removed that provision
2 and did not leave the authority for loan guarantee
in the Act, is that a lot of the people and
4 companies who testified before Congress said that
5 they felt that resource recovery systems could
6 be financed which were really viable systems.
7 And they gave a number of examples. There are a
number of examples of systems or there are a number
9 of systems which have been privately financed or
10 simply financed through the normal municipal route.
Either revenue bonds or general obligation bonds
as long as it was a viable system. There was
some fear that if you had a loan guarantee provision
14 that you would end up building systems which really
15 couldn't stand on their own two feet. Some people
16 didn't want that and that's the reason the provision
was removed.
UNIDENTIFIED: Who can request assistance
from the panel, can a private citizen or should
they or do they have to go through the whole, do
21 they have to go through the local government body?
22 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Well, we are now
trying to establish a procedure by which the panel
24 or the panel program will be carried out. That's
25 one of the things that we would like input on,
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i really. Concerning questions such as this, I
2 will tell you that at this point we envision that
requests will probably first be funnelled through
4 the state agencies, the state solid waste agencies
5 If they can satisfy the request then they will.
If they can't they probably will go to the EPA
Regional Office to have the technical assistance
request satisfied and if that, if they cannot
9 provide the assistance then it would come to EPA
10 Headquarters, perhaps. The point is that it
U depends on the level of sophistication of ass^ftance
12 required. If it's only a matter of someone needing
13 information that probably will be done by the jrtate.
14 If it's, or possibly by the regional office. If
15 they want really sophisticated TA that requires
16 one of the interdisciplinary teams then that might
17 be handled through the headquarters or possibly
lg that can be handled through the region, But in
19 any case there's going to be a screening mechanism
2Q for TA requests, as envisioned now. That's not
21 final.
22 MR. EDWARD WALTER: My name is Edward
23 Walter. I wrote to Mr, or I wrote to EPA back
24 in December and received a reply back from Sheldon
25 Meyers. It's a short letter and I'd like to read
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1 it.
2
3 NOTE: Mr, Walter reads a letter,
4 However, it cannot be heard by the court reporter
5 because Mr. Walter is in the back of the hearing
6 room. At the conclusion of that event Mr. Lingle
7 continues, viz:
8
9 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Thank you very much
10 for your statement. That's the purpose of this
n hearing so that we can receive comments and you
12 can make points like that. The letter you
13 received was essentially correct even though we
14 do have authority under Sections 8004 and 6 to
15 provide demonstration grants and do research,
16 The amount of funding which is likely to be
17 available for that in fiscal '78 is little or none,
18 That's a fact of life. But the purpose of the
19 hearing is that if you don't like that is to get
20 it on the record and that's why we have these
21 hearings so it will give you a chance to do that,
22 I might just indicate that we actually
23 provided a demonstration grant for demonstration
24 of an incinerator rescue recovery system in 1972,
25 Unfortunately we were not able to move forward with
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1 that project because the city where that project
2 was going to be carried out, had some difficulty
with the particular incinerator where the proj ect
4 is going to be carried out. They ultimately
5 decided to go or they decided that they were going
6 to take a different approach. Basically they
7 didn't take the grant. But we did, in fact,
initially fund such a demonstration in 1972,
9 and it's a very viable alternative.
10 MR. JOHN HESTON: I have not really thought
this out and I know there might be a lot of loopholes
12 here. But it seems to me that what you just said
13 is that Congress has intentionally said, by not
funding this particular type of activity, that
15 private, that the private market should or is
16 supposed to handle this situation. My reaction
to that is that this, in noting what has become
,0 feasible to recycle up to now, it seems to me
Io
that they are only really interested in those
commodities which have become very, very scarse
20
21 here or abroad. For example, newspapers were
22 bought in tremendous quantities by Japan and then
all of a sudden they stopped buying them and the
24 market fell out. It really fluctuated to a
25 great extent. But cutting this short, it seems
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1 to me that this might be an area that could be
2 subsidized in the marketplace in order to allow
a stable price for various kinds of resources
4 that the government could stockpile. When there's
5 a scarsity or when they're not needed the government
6 should stockpile and hold them and hold those
7 commodities in large quantities and then put it
back into the marketing system when the system
9 or the process was right and help stabilize the
10 various kinds of commodities. That way the
n marketplace could work with instrumentally different
12 people who are involved in trying to do a little
resource recovery operations when they can't do
14 them alone. That's just my idea to go into it
15 in much broader terms if you care to. I don't
16 know if it would work or not.
MR. STEVE LINGLE: Thank you very much.
... That's the kinds of alternatives and thinking that
lo
the committee should be considering and evaluating.
The problem with all the approaches is that you
21 have to look at the number of different approaches
and compare its effectiveness and costs and
benefits. In the past there's been a lot of
24 different approaches and proposals. There's been
bills in Congress and none of them had passed because
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1 for one reason or the other the effectiveness
2 versus the cost was viewed as not making it a
very good idea. It might cost a lot and not
4 increase recycling and so forth. It's really
5 something that involves benefits and costs and
6 necessity and effectiveness. That's really what
7 it boils down to. We've also talked about such
8 things as product charge and that's certainly
9 something new.
10 MR. JOHN HESTON; This is different, it
11 seems to me that there is only $500,000 available
12 in research and so forth and that money could
13 probably be better spent than trying to dole it
14 out or dole out a small amount to every agency.
15 It seems to me that a nationwide education program
16 would do better. That kind of a thing could be
set up and it would just educate the people as
lg to the things that we go through with our waste
lg system in this country, through our everyday
living. As an example, you could teach the
21 general population that when you go to McDonald's
22 and buy something you don't need three wrappers
23 and a sack to carry it out. You place these
24 things in the trash can anyway. Those are the
25 kinds of things I'm talking about. And then at
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1 the same time McDonald's could say to the general
2 public or they could say that the general public
does not want that, these wrappers, maybe they
4 could cut the cost back and get the prices down
5 or at least keep them down. So it seems to me
6 that all these things should be taken into
7 consideration and I am strongly in favor of a
general education program for the public,
9 Educate them as to what they need and what they
10 don't need. It could be much more wisely spent
11 in that vein.
12 MR. STEVE LINGLE: In essence the money
13 is intended for education purposes such as you
14 mention. I don't think, in fact I don't think
15 it's going to virtually every university.
IS MR. JOHN HESTON: Well, those were just
17 some of my thoughts.
18 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Thank you very much.
19 UNIDENTIFIED: It's not clear in my mind
20 why this law was necessary to start with. Could
21 you answer that?
22 MR. STEVE LINGLE: Well, to clarify why
this law was necessary, there must be a hundred
24 ways to answer that. But let me say that Congress
25 felt that we have had two major problems. One of
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1 them was protection of the health and environment
2 because of the damage caused by improper disposal
of both normal and municipal wastes and so forth.
4 They felt it was necessary to do something about
5 this. Another fact that Congress realized was
g that we were depleting our natural resources and
7 we've thrown away a lot of those that are
recoverable in solid waste and that we have to
stop doing that. They felt that they had to
help provide the technical and financial assistance
for the development of management plans and
12 facilities for the recovery of energy and other
13 resources from discarded materials and for the
14 safe disposal of discarded materials and regulate
15 the management of hazardous waste.
16 I think we're going to have to stop here
and we'll answer more questions at the end of
the presentations. George.
lo
MR. GEORGE GARLAND.- This is my last time
up. The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act
recognizes that the states and local governments
22 have the major burden in dealing with land
23 protection and solid waste management in the
24 United States. The regulatory provision of the
25 Resource Conservation and Recovery Act provides
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1 the mechanism for the states to assume a dominant
2 role in assuring proper solid waste management.
3 So this is really upon the states for implementing
4 and planning for particular problems the Act
5 recognizes the role of the local government.
6 The first define under the Resource
7 Conservation and Recovery Act calls for guidelines
8 for regional identification. Identification of
9 regional planning areas and that's due by April,
10 1977. These guidelines recognize the existance
11 of 208 planning agencies. In essence they kick
12 off a project where the governor will, within
13 six months after these guidelines have been
14 published, establish a lead agency within the
15 state for planning and management and then will
16 divide up the state into planning districts or
17 have district planning areas. When that is done
18 he will have six months, six more months to
19 assign functions, planning functions and functions
20 of solid waste management to these various levels
21 of governmental or government and planning bodies,
22 Also he will be deciding what kind of funding
23 each of these bodies should get.
24 Now, the 208 planning agencies if appropria
25 will do a part of the planning. Obviously th«y
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1 will have an interest in the water quality
2 management and the actions that we'll take will
3 affect water quality. So they should at a minimum,
4 linked into the whole process so that they will
5 be able to factor the land protection activities
6 into the broad picture of water quality management
7 into the states.
8 In addition the Act calls for guidelines
y
9 -for solid waoto management programc for jtate
s*~ ^
10 solid waste management programs. Now, these
U guidelines apply for both state and local activities
12 The planning that will be done is not just state
13 level but also at the local level because that's
14 where the people have to decide what they're going
15 to do if they have to close an open dump. As I
16 said, the guidelines are due in eighteen months
17 and that's parallel to the process of the regional
18 identification guidelines of six months. The
19 identification of regional planning agencies in
20 the next six months and deciding who's going to
21 do what in the last six months.
22 Now, the Act gives minimum requirements
23 for acceptable state programs and these include
24 identification of responsibilities of state plans,
25 distribution of federal funds for the authorities
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l responsible for the development and implementation
2 of the_s_tate plans and the means of coordinating
3 regional plans and implementation under the state
4 plan. It includes prohibition of the
5 establishment of new open dumps within the state
6 and requirements that all solid waste, including
7 solid waste originating in other states but not
8 including hazardous wastes, shall be utilized
9 for resource recovery and disposed of in sanitary
10 landfills or otherwise disposed of in an
11 environmentally sound manner. The criteria
12 includes the provisions for closing up or
13 upgrading all existing open dumps within the
14 state in accordance with Section 4005, which I
15 discussed earlier, It includes provisions of
16 state regulatory powers as may be necessary to
17 implement the plan. It includes provisions that
18 no local governments within the ^tate should be
19 prohibited from entering into long term contracts.
2Q For example, resource recovery facility might be
2i paid off over twenty years. In many states local
22 officials are prohibited from entering into
23 contracts which extend beyond their period of
24 office, which mightte two or three years. Those
25 are the kinds of things and those are the
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1 artificial barriers to resource recovery that
2 we're going to try to eliminate those under this
3 Act.
4 Finally the provisions for such resource
5 conservation and recovery and for the disposal
6 of solid waste and sanitary landfills or any
7 combination of practices that may be necessary
8 to use or dispose of solid waste in a manner
9 that is environmentally sound,
10 Now I'll be getting into the various
11 authorizations for providing financial assistance
12 to spates and local governments for carrying out
%*--
13 the Act. Maybe this will shed some light on
14 the kinds of monies that are or that Congress
15 has authorized. These are authorizations now
16 and not appropriations. As I said, we have not
17 received any further appropriations yet under
18 the Act.
19 The first place we come across financial
™ assistance or assistance to the state and local
SM ~ -^-
21 government is in Section 3011. The state hazardous
22 waste program will receive money on a formula
23 basis in fiscal '78 and '79, As I say, the
24 authorization is that 25 million dollars in each
25 of those years. The formula will be based on the
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1 extent of the hazardous waste problem in the
2 state and the seriousness of the hazardous waste
3 problem in the state.
4 Section 4008(a). Funds are authorized
5 for state and local planning. 30 million dollars
6 in fiscal '78 and 40 million dollars in fiscal
7 "79 and these monies are available to states that
decide that they want a plan and on a straight
population formula basis with the exception that
10 no state will receive less than one-half of one
11 percent of the total funds authorized. I'm sorry,
12 appropriated.
13 We've had in the past, implementation
14 grants which have been used for laying the
15 groundwork for resource recovery facilities.
These kinds of grants are, again, mentioned in
17 the Act. 15 million dollars in each of fiscal
18 "78 and '79 are available for plans and feasibility
19 studies, consultations, surveys, market studies,
„„ and economic investigations having to do with
21 resource recovery possibilities, and technology
22 assessments having to do with other solid waste
23 management functions.
24 In order to be eligible for these grants
25 the locality must be meeting land disposal
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1 requirements and the provisions of our guidelines.
2 There is no formula for these grants so that it
3 would be a general announcement that such grants
4 are going to be available and then the people would
5 be competing against a pot of money based on
6 criteria that would be published at the time for
7 monies available. That sort of sounds federal
g to me.
9 Section 4008(e) authorizes 2 1/2 million
10 dollars in each of fiscal '78 and '79 for special
11 communities. These special communities have
12 to have a population of less than 25,000 people.
13 They have to be receiving at least 75 percent of
14 the solid waste they handle from outside their
15 boundaries. They have to be incurring serious
16 environmental problems and there's no formula
YJ for disbursing this money except that there can
18 be no more than one special community in any given
19 state.
20 Section 4009 calls for rural community
21 assistance. In fiscal '78 and '79,25 million
22 dollars is authorized in each year. This money
23 goes to the states to assist communities with
24 populations of 5,000 or less or communities with
25 populations of 10,000 or less or less than 20 persotis
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1 per square mile. Monies will be used to meet the
2 open dumping restrictions in RCRA or the
3 restrictions in RCRA referred to under the Clean
4 Air Act or the Federal Water Pollution Control Act.
5 The money is available to isolated rural
6 areas. The Act is not intended to encourage
7 every small rural area in the United States to
have its own solid waste operation. Clearly in
9 many cases this would not be advisable. We
10 encourage, for example, equipment sharing in rural
areas where a number of small communities can
12 use the same equipment to achieve environmentally
13 sound operations and we have publications on
14 that kind of thing. But where no existing planned
15 system is available for regional operations then
ie this money would be available if appropriated.
17 It goes to the Agates on a formula that's
1Q based on considerations that I mentioned in the
lo
19 last slide. How many communities, the populations
of communities with people 5,000 or less or
21 counties 10,000 or less and so forth. With other
22 provisions that more money would go to those states
23 if they had counties whose income was within
24 25 percent of the poverty level. These grants
25 would pay 75 percent of the cost except that no
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1 land could be purchased.
2 I should point out that the likelihood
3 of funding under this portion of the Act is pretty
4 remote.
5 UNIDENTIFIED: The President just cut the
6 environmental budget considerably, would that
7 change under —
8 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: -- I'm not -- I heard
9 that a new budget had been submitted with slight
10 increases overall for the entire federal budget.
11 I do not personally know what happened to the
12 Environmental Protection Agency in that exercise.
13 You say that there was a cut from the Ford level?
14 UNIDENTIFIED; That was in the news a
15 couple of days ago.
16 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Okay. Well, the
17 handwriting's on the wall because the Ford level
lg calls for us to receive about what we received
19 last year. That means that all of these new
20 authorizations and all these new requirements will
21 be carried out with what we had before or less.
22 That's going to be quite a trick,
23 UNIDENTIFIED: That means we should not
24 be too optimistic about new funding?
25 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: It means we're going
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1 to be counting on a strong commitment from the
2 state and local governments to be carrying out
3 these provisions.
4
5 NOTE: A hearty laugh from the audience
is had.
MR. SOL AGRAWAL: About these grant
9 projects, do you have any provisions for just
10 storage aspects? Because lots of times in small
11 local governments you may have a lot of stuff
12 which has to be, for example, if the police come
13 and confiscate something you have to hold it at
14 a landfill before it can be transported to a
15 handling facility?
16 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: By hot you mean
17 environmentally dangerous?
18 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: Yes.
19 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: As stolen?
20 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: Both.
21 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: There will be
22 provisions for the storage of hazardous material.
23 MR. FRED LINDSAY: I'm not sure I
24 understand your question.
25 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: He's referring to
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1 the fact, well, we've run into this situation
2 where the customs people confiscate maybe this
3 would be a hazardous and the regional office has
4 been asking us what to do with it.
5 MR. FRED LINDSAY: The court sometimes
6 mandates the disposal of certain things that may
7 be seized for one reason or the other. Occasional
8 the sheriff or somebody will end up with it and
9 wants to know what to do with it. So we get a
10 call through the regional office and it's referred,
11 occasionally, to the headquarters concerning what
12 to do with these things. Then we get technical
13 assistance saying, for example, the publications
14 out of our office listing the facilities that are
15 in business of receiving those things. But I'm
ie not sure that's what your question was.
17 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: Let me suppose that
18 we had a county landfill and we could designate
lg a portion within the landfill to handle or Just
20 store these things.
21 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Store hazardous waste?
22 MR. SOL AGRAWAL; For a very short time
23 before we transported them to a recovery site or
24 a handling company. But we wouldn't have the
25 money and the storage and th« personnel to handle i£.
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1 MR. FRED LINDSAY: Well, even for storage
2 there will be provisions under Section 3004 of
3 the Act, that we will be mandated by the Act to
4 come up with standards for storage facilities as
5 well as treatment and disposal facilities. And
6 so whatever storage facilities you had would
7 have to comply with that and would require a
8 permit under the Act.
9 Now, the question may be — there may be
10 some cases where we might have to grant a waiver
11 of provisions for short term storage or different
12 conditions for short term storage which are less
13 stringent than for those people that want to take
14 very hot stuff and keep it on storage for years.
15 There may be a difference in the condition there.
16 But the provisions apply to storage facilities as
17 well.
lg MR. SOL AGRAWAL: I'm talking about is
19 any federal money going to be available to run
20 these?
2i MR. FRED LINDSAY: Federal monies availabl
22 to run them, no, there are no provisions in the
23 Act for operating, grants to operate hazardous
24 waste facilities of any type.
25 MR. SOL AGRAWAL: Don't you think there
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1 should be a requirement? Because these small
2 communities are just not, they don't have enough
3 resources to do this type of thing and we're faced
4 with that problem very often.
5 MR, FRED LINDSAY: There's no provision
6 in the Act for that.
7 MR. ROLAND DORER: Well, I think that in
8 the handling of hazardous materials temporary
9 storage facilities is a very important part of it.
10 Not only because you may have a method of disposal,
n You may not and you may have. You may be just
12 holding it and studying it to see what you can do
13 with it or you may be holding it to accumulate
14 enough to make it economically feasible to do
15 something with it. So I think that the storage,
16 the temporary storage is a very, very important
17 part of the handling of hazardous wastes.
18 UNIDENTIFIED: How specific do you see
19 the guidelines that you will issue for the
20 identifications of regions?
21 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Those guidelines
22 will be very general. We will give you very
23 general guidelines on what constitutes a adequate
24 planning agency, on what constitutes an adequate
25 management agency and very general guidance on how
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i the governor can carry out the two steps that I
2 mentioned. Obviously you have to accommodate
3 what works in fifty states and we're not interested
4 in forcing some particular arrangement down anybody
5 throat. We're prepared to accept any kind of
6 arrangements that makes sense. However, we are
7 sticky on two or three points.
8 One is that there be a public process by
9 which the arrangement is agreed at so that somethin
10 arbitrary is not imposed on people and we want
n to make sure that total coverage is achieved in
12 the state. Every one in the state has someone
13 who has responsibility for providing service or
14 for planning for service for them.
15 UNIDENTIFIED: My understanding from
16 what I've read so far, is that the jstate does not
17 have to take up this burden of handling this
18 program?
lg MR. GEORGE GARLAND: That's correct.
20 There are two reasons why they might. One is
2i that they would be eligible for no funding under
22 the Act if they did not and secondly, the people
23 that operate open dumps in their j.tate would
24 be subject to citizen suits and they would not
25 be getting the benefit of the five-year grace peri
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1 if the state does not participate under the Act,
2 MR, JOHN HESTON: You mentioned several
3 times that you'd like input. So I have several
4 ideas that seem to me, to be absolutely imperative
5 for several reasons. First of all, if the
6 guidelines are not uniform you're going to have
7 each ^tate enacting various kinds of restrictions
8 and so forth and you're going to end up with all
9 or certain types of substances ending up in
10 California or ending up in Virginia or, instead
11 of other places where they make the restrictions
12 more stringent. Another thing is that it would
13 open the door up for regionalization, that goes
14 back to the benefits and back to the idea of
15 costs and benefits. Another thing is that
16 everybody's budget is down and so forth. So it
17 seems to me that a uniform guideline and uniform
18 law enacted then two states beside each other
19 could perhaps get together or perhaps even three
2Q states, and come up with a -- they could at least
2i get together and do a regional thing. At least
22 where it's feasible to carve out a regional area.
23 Also in rural areas where areas could get together
24 and do these things on a collective or a regional
25 basis and dispose of these materials and this is
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1 just one aspect, if they could do it and have some
2 uniform guidelines then that would work much
3 better. If not, then you've really got a problem.
MR. ROBERT A. FORMAN: I'm Robert Forman,
5 with the State of Virginia. And I know the time
6 is short, but if we applied subsidies to start
7 out with projects that we're not so sure whether
they're sound or not, then I think we're fostering
9 a baby that we're going to have to nipple feed
10 for the rest of its life. We're going to have
to find out whether it is sound and then maybe if
12 it is sound then subsidize it.
13 MR. GEORGE GARLAND: Thank you.
14 MR. WILLIAM SCHREMP: Are there any
15 additional comments or statements that anyone
16 would like to make at this time?
17
18 NOTE: No response.
19
20 MR. WILLIAM SCHREMP: Then if there's no
21 one who cares to make another statement or comment,
22 are there?
23
24 NOTE: No response.
25
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