TRANSCRIPT


                  REGIONAL PUBLIC MEETINGS ON THE

          RESOURCE CONSERVATION AND RECOVERY ACT of 1976

                 March 8 and 9, 1977,  Dallas, Tex.
          These meetings were sponsored by EPA Region VI,
and the proceedings (SW-18p) are reproduced entirely as transcribed
      by the official  reporter, with handwritten corrections
                   by the Office of Solid Waste
               U.S.  ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

                               1977

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An environmental protection publication (SW-18p) 1n the solid waste management series.

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    UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

                       REGION VI




  THE RESOURCE CONSERVATION AND RECOVERY ACT OF 1976

                     PUBLIC  MEETING

                     March  8,
i,  197.T
PANEL MEMBERS:

     MR. RAY LOZANO




     MR. WILLIAM SANJOUR
             MR. HERBERT C. CROWE
             DR. NORMAN DYER
             MR. H. LANIER HICKMAN
             MR. TOM CANFIELD
        EPA Conference Room
        First International  Building
        DalIds ,  Texas
      Director,  Air and
      Hazardous  Materials,
      Region VI,  Dallas, Texas

      Chief, Assessment and
      Technology, Hazardous
      Waste Division, Office
      of Solid Waste,
      Washington, D.C.

      Chief, Hazardous Waste
      Management, EPA, Region
                                 Chief, Pesticide and
                                 Hazardous Waste Management
                                 Branch, Region VI, EPA

                                 Director, Management and
                                 Information Staff, Offices
                                 of Solid Waste,
                                 Washington, D.C.

                                 Chief, Waste Reduction
                                 Branch, Office of Solid
                                 Waste, Washington, D.C.
        REPORTER:  JOY JACKSON
                   4306 Purdue
                   Dallas -  368-2506
                                                                  /I

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                           INDEX
                                           Page
    Mr. Ray Lozano  -  Introduction
                      and welcome           4
 3
    Mr. Norman Dyer                        6
 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25
Mr. H. Lanier Hickman                  8

Mr. William Sanjour                    18

Mr. H. Lanier Hickman                 47

Mr. Tom Canfield                       59

Mr. Herbert Crowe                      73

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 2                  MR.  LOZANOi   Good evening.  It is seven




 3             o'clock,  en the button.  My name is Ray Lozano




 4             and  I am  Director of the Air and Hazardous




 5             Materials Division of EPA, Region VI, here  in




 6             Dallas.




 7                  I am subbing for Mr. John White this




 3             evening.   Our Regional Administrator was




 9             called away to Washington this morning.  But




 10             I  am pleased to welcome you to Region VI and




 11             this public meeting on the Resource Conservation




 12             and  Recovery Act of 1976.




 13                  This Act is a comprehensive effort at




 14             summarizing various hearings on the subject




 15             which have been conducted over the past three




 16             years.




 17                  We  in Region VI are especially aware of




 18             the  many solid wastes management problems




 19             that confront each of us.  Each of us has




 20             observed examples of solid waste management




 21              practices that have adversely  impacted our




 22              environment.




 23                   Improper management of municipal wastes




 24              through  open burning dumps and the dumping




25              of industrial wastes in  our streams and lakes

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              are a few of the episodes that have resulted
              in the passage of this Act.
                   Many of you will have specific issues  to
 4             address in this meeting.  But equally
 5             important, we feel this meeting  represents  an
 6             opportunity for you  to acquire an  overview  of
 7             what is expected from each of us.
 8                  You as citizens will be able  to develop
 9             an understanding of  the major issues in  the
              Act and see the necessity for establishing
11             priorities to address these  issues .
12                  We in turn will see the need  for
13             determining the emphasis to  be assigned  for
              each priority and its impact upon  the  state
15             and local governments.
14                  This meeting will offer a two-way street
17             in which we will have a  free exchange  of
18             information and ideas.
19                  These meetings  are  essential  in  the
              development of a federal solid wastes
              management program.  Public  participation,
              mandated  in the Act, remains a key factor in
23
              establishing a strong  federal-state
24
              partnership necessary  for  the  protection of
              the land.  I am sure this meeting  will be

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 1             informative  and  profitable  for each of us.




 2                 A  little  bit  about  the  format  and then




 3             I  would like to  introduce  the  people at the




 4             table here.




 5                 First  of  all,  Mr. --  to my extreme right




 6             over there  is  Mr.  Bill Sanjour,  Chief of the




 7             Assessment  and Technology  Branch,  Hazardous




 8             Waste Division,  Office of  Solid Waste, in




 '             Washington.




 10                 Next  to him is Herbert C. Crowe, Chief of




 11              Hazardous  Waste  Management Section, EPA,




 12             Region  VI.




 13                  Dr. Norm  Dyer who is  Chief of the




 14              Pesticide  and  Hazardous  Waste  Management




 15             Branch  in  the  Region VI  office here in Dallas.




 16                 Next  to him is Mr.  Lanny  Hickman,




 17             Director of  the  Management and Information




 '8             Staff,  Office  of Solid Waste,  in Washington.




 "                 And over  to my left Mr. Tom Canfield who




 20              is chief of  the  Waste Reduction Branch, Office




 21              of Solid Waste,  in Washington.




 22                  The format  that we  would  like to follow




 23              this evening isi  We would like to have each




 24              of the  people  who are going to make this




^              presentation complete their presentation in

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 1             about half  of  the  time  that is  allotted in the




 2             program,  leaving some  fifteen,  twenty minutes




 3             for questions  and  answers  that  you  may have —




 4             questions that you may  have.




 5                  There  is  a mike  in the center  of the room




 6             if you would like  to  ask your questions from




 7             that position,or if you would to come up and




 8             make a statement,  feel  free to  come up and




 9             use the  podium.




10                  Right  after the  presentation,  or at the




11             end of all  of  the  presentations, there will




12             be a chance for a  more  complete statement if




13             anybody  wants  to make  one.




14                  we  understand that there are two people




15             who would like to  make  a presentation who




16             have indicated this on  the  registration card.




17             And I will  call on these people at  the end if




18             they still  feel like  they  would like to.




19                  TO  present an overview of  the  Resource




20             Conservation and Recovery  Act  I would like to




21             ask first of all Dr.  Norman Dyer, Chief of




22             the Pesticide  and  Hazardous Waste Management




23             Branch of Region VI,  EPA.




24                  DR.  DYERi Good  Evening.   As has been




25    stated  earlier this new  law  amends the Solid Waste

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    Disposal Act to provide for a hazardous waste  regulatory




    program, a program to eliminate open dumping,  to provide




    financial and technical assistance for planning, enhance




    solid waste management programs, grants to  rural




    communities to improve solid waste management  systems,




    and authority for research, demonstration,  and studies




                   I will briefly run through the  major




    provisions of the Act.  The speakers that follow me  will




    go into the provisions in more detail.  And after  the




10   speakers have completed their statements on the various




    provisions, we welcome your comments.




12                  The major oojectives of the  Act - as




13   many of you can see on this slide - I don't know  if  you




14   in the back can see those but I will run through  those




15   in case you cannot.




16                  First, to protect health, protect  the




17   environment, to conserve valuable material  resources,




18   conserve valuable energy resources.




19                  As Mr. Lozano indicated,  in  the past




20   years we have realized that there was  something needed




21   on either the national or the state level  to  address




22   these problems.




23                  The objectives are  to be  achieved  through




24   technical and financial assistance  to  state and local




25   governments, through manpower development,  through

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    prohibition of future open dumping, through conversion




    or closing of existing open dumps, and through




    regulation of hazardous wastes.




                   Further, the objectives are to be




    achieved through guidelines for solid waste management,




    research and development, demonstration, federal-state-




    local government-industry partnership, and materials




    and energy recovery as well as through public education.




 9                  Tonight we are attempting to get  public




10   imput on the Agency's implementation of these various




11   provisions of the act.  And as I stated earlier  the




12   speakers that follow will go into great detail into




13   each of these provisions that are -- the major




14   provisions of the Act.




15                  Thank you.




16                  MR. LOZANOi  The next speaker  is  Mr




17             Lanny Hickman, Director, Management and




18             Information Staff, Office of Solid Waste,  in




              Washington,who will present a talk  on  trainin




20             public  information, public participation.




21                  MR. HICKMANi  Can you see those slides




22   in the back?  are they legible?  All right.




23                  What?




24                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Raise  it higher.




25                  MR. HICKMANs  Raise  it higher?  Okay.

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20



21



22



23



24



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    How  is  that?   is  that better?  Good.



                    There are a couple of things that we


                             TfeffQ
    should  understand about Roegu" (phonetic-}' before we



    start in  to discussing some of the details of the major



    provisions of  the low.



                    This  amendment to the Federal Solid



    Waste Disposal  Act does not establish d federal



    regulatory program.   That is not the basic intent of



    the  law.  Unlike  the air and water law and other



 10



    EPA, Jt'oern- - the  acronym that we use for the Resource



    Conservation and  Recovery Act - is not a federal



    regulatory program.



                    The intent of the law, the primary



    purpose,  is to  construct strong state and local programs



    for  the purposes  of  eliminating improper land disposal



    practices, for  controlling hazardous waste from the



    cradle  to the  grave, and for initiating necessary steps



    toward  improving  an  increasing amount of resource
conservation practices  in  this  country.
               Inherent  in  R*-c-s-a,  and some unique


                              OUJZ
characteristics of  the law, is •*-»- intent to have heavy



public participation  in  all  phases of the  law.  This is



achieved through a  variety  of mechanisms both directly



and indirectly which  I will  discuss in the next few

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                                                              10





    minutes.




                  One of the major intentions of the law is




    to try to transmit information to those people deeply




    involved  in solid waste management.




                   Section 8003 provides authorization for




    coordination, collection and dissemination of informatio




    The intent of this provision is to promote public




    understanding of solid waste management problems} to




    involve the public in the total decision-making process




    of solid waste management at the _federal, jstate, and




11   local level; to provide the mechanism for the public to




12   cooperate with states; to have a stronger awareness of




13   what the problems are in solid waste management; and




14   the approach that is necessary, that are open to the




15   solution of solid waste management problems.




16                  To provide a mechanism to describe the




17   significance of the data base, what impact  improper




18   solid waste management practices have on health and




19   the environment, solutions  that are open for  those
20   problems.



21
                   Andvto provide the mechanism  for  rapid
22   dissemination of information  it  requires  the EPA  to




    establish a library of  solid  waste management  literature




                   One of the major  forces  that play  JM  the




    public  is the need to be  involved  in  the  whole process

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                                                             11
 1   of solid waste management.




 2                  We have identified major sectors of the



 3   public  that  the public information program will be



 4   focused on to try to create a stronger and greater




    understanding, the  information and participation program.



                   There are consumer and evironmental



    neighborhood groups that are involved in a variety of



    ways both in Washington through activists as well as at




 9   the local and state level through a variety of different



10   organizations.  You have the various trade and



11   manufacturing representatives which, that force out



12   there, all of these are very actively involved in solid



13   waste.  This is very unique in the fact that a little



    over half of the solid waste collected and disposed of



15   in this country is  done so by private industry either



16   on a contract basis with local government or with



17   industry, or many industries on their own collect and



    dispose of their own solid waste.  So industry is



19   heavily involved in the solid waste management field.



20                  And we have the public health, scientific



21   and professional societies which have an interest and




    who are aware of the problems of solid waste and the


23
    solutions for it and they must have tools to deal with



    the problem  as they try to provide services to state




    and local governments and industry.

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                                                             12
 I                  We have governmental  groups.   Bo e ra- is



 2   designed in a way that the  federal government has  to



 3   participate actively in meeting  the  requirements of the



 4   law just like jtate and local  government  and  industry.



 5   And government has strong forces at  play  within  the



 6   economic structure of our country which create problems



 7   for the whole field of resource  conservation. So



 8   governmental units have to  be  involved.



 9                  And of course^ university associations



10   because from the universities  come the professionals



11   that have to work in the solid waste management  field.


                   J?CF/)
12                  He era also provides the mechanism for



13   the public  to petition and  be  involved in making changa



'4   in how EPA  proceeds to establish regulations  and



15   guidelines.  And it requires EPA to  issue regulations



16   that tells  the public citizen  how  they can ping in upon



17   EPA, to eayi  Hey, I think  you should write a regulation



18   on this, or a guideline on  this.  Or, I don't agree with



"   what you have written in that  guideline or regulation.



20   I think you should change it.  And the Administrator  of



21   EPA must show cause why he  should  or should not  through



22   a variety o£ public hearings and interchanges between



23   the petitioner and the federal government.



24                  We also have to issue public participation



    guidelines.  The law is very clear that not only should

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                                                              13





 1   the public be involved in the regulatory-setting process



 2   which is by nature a mechanism that  through  the



 3   administrative procedures in the federal government




 4   citizens can participate in the decision-making process



    of the rega, but in the planning and the development  of



 6   the concept of how the law should be implemented, how



 7   it should move forward, what we should do  each fiscal




 8   year, what is the reasonable distribution  of  our




 '   resources on different program areas that  we  are working



10   on.



11                  This meeting tonight  is an  example of



    the sort of involvements that we are starting early  on,




13   before decisions that have to be made by the  law are



    set in concrete so that the public can be  involved and



    be a  factor in helping to make these decisions.




16                  We are not only having a series  in the



I7   Region but we have had some other meetings.   During  this



18   calendar year, OSW alone is to hold  one hundred — at



    the present time we have a hundred and forty-five meetings




20   on our calendar, public meetings of  various  types, such



21   as this, as well as formal public hearings for




22   regulations and guidelines for the purpose of trying to




23   factor in public involvement  in the  decision-making




    process of the Agency.



25                  This means we will have to  publish

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 1   guidelines to tell the public how  to  participate  with
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 us.   These  are  under  development now.


                We  have  to provide a mechanism which is


 for  citizens'  suits where the citizens can be involved


 in suing  us or  someone  in violation of the requirements


 Of nGC ITS •


                We  have  a variety of public participation


 techniques  which I have mentioned, meetings such as


 this which  —  although  a record is kept, this record


 is basically for our  benefit, to help guide us in our


 decisions as we move  along.


                Public hearings, of course, which is


 a more  formalized procedure for regulations—setting and


 prepared  statements  on  RCRA and these of course have to


 be factored in.  And  we have to show in a public hearing


 with the  regulatory-setting process why we did or did


 not  consider the comments that were made at the hearing.


                And then we will hold a variety of


 conferences.  We had a  big conference over this last

                £.HVI&Ofjtf(£HTJ>l-
week-end with the^a.ction aoalition  in Washington to


 discuss resource and conservation  issues as well as


 hazardous waste issues and disposal  issues.


                We have a variety  of  financial assistance


 to  interest groups such as the League of Women Voters,


 several union groups,  to build a  bridge with  these
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                                                              15
various interest groups to better communicate with  them.




We hold conferences with these people.




               In addition, we have established  formal




review groups.  We have proposed a formal  advisory  group




to advise the Agency on formal implementation of the  law




This is an involved process of setting  up  such a formal




group to try to represent the various interests  that  are




interested in solid waste management.




               On an interim basis, for  the  next four




to six months we will establish several  ad hoc study




groups to represent the various sectors  of solid waste




management and the public, to have them  come in  and sit




with us as we proceed in a smaller type  of forum where




we have stronger interchange.




               And of course as we start to  — this




meeting,  of course, is more of a dog and  pony show on




our part to try to advise you on what is in  the  law.




And at this time we are not indicating what  direction




we are going because we haven't made those decisions  yet




               But as we start to write  regulations,  anc




as we start to draw lines on what we think should be  the




requirements, then the involvement will  be more  intense




because you have something to shoot at.  Mow you have




very little to shoot at because we really  haven't starteji




to describe the standards for the regulations or

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                                                            16



 1   guidelines which the state and local governments have


 2   to adopt.

                   -RLR.R
 3                  flecra* also provides for some mechanisms


 4   to try and develop manpower to meet the requirements of


 5   the law.  The old law -- the 1970 amendments  to the


 6   Solid Waste Disposal Act required EPA to do a study on


 7   manpower needs in solid waste management and  report to


 8   Congress their findings.  This report was submitted to


 9   Congress about three years ago.


10                  Basically that report said:  Well,  unless


11   there are some dramatic changes that take place  in solid


12   waste management or state and local government gets


13   more actively involved  in requiring approved  practices,


14   unless there are a lot  of institutional changes  that


15   take place to increase  the opportunity for  resource


16   recovery, there  isn't a real big career ladder or


17   career opportunities or any big manpower demands  for


18   new personnel in solid  waste management.


19                  And from those studies we started  to


20   turn down manpower development programs.  Of  course,


21   Kflcra now gives  the  opportunity for  increased involvemenjt


22   of §_tate government  and increased  involvement of  local


23   government to improve and change practices.   And  there


24   are mechanisms built into the law  that hopefully in  the


25   long term will make  dramatic changes  in resource

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                                                              17
     conservation  opportunities.



                    And  so we  will  probably create  a need for




     increased and different types  of manpower than has been



     used  in  the past on solid waste  management.



                    So the law requires  us to do  a  study




     again  and report to Congress  on  what types of  manpower,




     what  sectors,  and in what part of the solid  waste




     management field will manpower be needed in  order to




     meet  the  demands of -Re-era.



 10                  And  the law also  provides grant programs




     to  state  and  local  government  and non-profit groups —




 12   all the  grant provisions  in  this law are restricted to




 13   non-profit groups.   There is  no  granting program under




     Recra  for profit-making ventures.  In other  words, grant




 15   go  to  state and local government and other non-profit



 16   groups,  research foundations,  universities,  for support



 17   in  developing the programs.




 18                  That's the last of those.  Okay.  That



 "   covers the public participation  and the manpower



 20   development portions of the  program tonight.



 21                  UNIDENTIFIED  SPEAKERi  Ray, can we have




 22             questions now?



23                  MR.  LOZANOs   I  can entertain  questions




24             now if there are any.   If not we will move on




               ahead to  the next  part.

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                                                              18
 1                  Questions? statements? continents?




 2             observations?




 3                  MR. HICKMAN:  I am glad we  stimulated




 4   you on the first opening session.  And here's  Ray.




 5                  MR. L.OZANO:  We are way ahead of  schedule




 6             We are supposed to take a break  at this  time




 1             but why don't we keep moving and see if  we




 8             can perhaps take a break later on.




 9                  The next presentation  is by Mr. Bill




10             Sanjour, Chief, Assessment and Technology




11             Branch, Hazardous Waste Division, Office of




'2             Solid Waste.  Bill?




13                  MR. SANJOUR:  I will see what I can do




14   about getting us behind schedule.




15                  X am going to tell you about Subtitle C




16   which deals with hazardous wastes.  And this is  a




17   regulatory section of the Act.  It is the  only regulatorjy




    section.  And Lanny Hickiuan was correct in saying  that




19   there are no regulatory portions, federal  regulatory




2"   portions, in the sense that Congress  intended  that this




21   portion of the Act would be written by  the federal




22   government but administered by  the state  governments.




                   However, whether or not  the Act is




24   administered by  the state government  is optional by  the




2S   states.  And the Act  requires that  if  the  states do  not

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                                                             19





 1   pick up Subtitle C  then that would be administered  by




 2   the federal government.




 3                  we are  talking about hazardous waste.




 4   we are not talking  about trash and garbage.  we are




 5   talking about, chiefly, industrial wastes.   I would say




 6   some small per cent of industrial waste  -  it has  been




 7   estimated at five,  ten, fifteen per cent - would  be




 8   considered hazardous,  depending upon how you define




 9   hazardous.




10                  And  the first section of  the  Act,  Section




11   3001, deals with the definition of hazardous waste.




12                  I think we  can leave the  lights  on.   Can




13   you see these?  can you read them without  turning the




14   lights off?  can you read  them better with  the  light on




15   or off?




16                  The  Act requires that we  define  hazardous




17   waste within eighteen months.  And that  we  first  define




'8   criteria for hazardousness.




19                  And  then the Act gives us two different




20   options for defining hazardous wastes:   One  is  by listing




21   wastes.  And the other is  by identifying characteristics




22   And we can do one,  or  the  other, or both.   When I say




23   "we" I mean the Administrator of EPA.




24                  Let  me  just read to you what  the Act
25
    requires  in  terms  of  this  definition.   It requires that
                                                             the

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                                                             20
 1   Act take into account! toxicity,  persistence,  and




 2   degradability in nature,  potential for accumulation in




 3   tissue,  and other related factors such as flammability,




 4   corrosiveness,  and other  hazardous characteristics.




 5                  That is a  rather broad area of definition




 6                  Section 3002 of the Act, also to be




 7   promulgated in eighteen months, eighteen months from




 8   last October, requires the promulgation of regulations




 '   for people who generate hazardous waste.  This would for




10   the most part be manufacturing concerns:  Chemical




1'   concerns largely, but most manufacturing concerns would




'2   at least qualify for consideration.




13                  And the Act requires that we promulgate




14   regulations for record keeping, reporting, and labeling,




15   and for a manifest system which I will describe to you




16   in a moment.




17                  You will notice that there are no permit




1®   requirements for generators, per  se.




19                  Section 3003 deals with people who




2"   transport hazardous waste.  And here  the requirements




21   are very similar.  Also, no permitting requirements.




22   And here is where we hava  the  largest burden of the




    manifest system.




                   Congress  intended  that hazardous wastes




    should  be treated as a commodity  in the  sense  that they

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     are  kept track of.   That records are kept—starting




     at the point of origin,  when it first becomes a waste,



     records should be kept track of its movement and final




 4   disposition.



                    This was  because Congress found that the



     principal problem of hazardous wastes were the haphazard




     and  illicit disposal: disposals in unauthorized ways




     and  where people didn't  know where they were going to




     largely due to unscrupulous persons just throwing them
 10




 11




 12




 13




 14




 15




 16



 17




 18




 19




 20




 21




 22




 23




 24




25
                                                              21
into other people's back yards.




               And by keeping records Congress felt that



the bulk of the problem of handling hazardous wastes




would be solved.



               Section 3004 are standards for owners



and operators of treatment, storage, and disposal




facilities of hazardous wastes.  Now theso could very



well be the people who generate the wastes.




               If they treat, store, dispose of it on



their own site they would fall under this provision of



the Act also.  And this might apply also to a great



many industrial manufacturers.




               The function of these standards is —




according to Section 3005, which is  what I an talking




about, is to permit such facilities.  These facilities




will be permitted.  And Section 3004 are the standards

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                                                             22
    under which these permits will be issued.




                   These standards specifically call  for




    record-keeping, reporting, compliance with the manifest




    system,  monitoring,  standards on location, design, and




    construction, maintenance and operation, contingency




    plans for operation, ownership responsibility - that is,




    posting bonds for safe operation and the like - those




 8   are explicitly called for by the Act, in the Act.




 9                  In addition, there is a more general




10   statement, which I will read to you and that isi




11                  The Administrator•shall write standards




12   as may be necessary to protect human health and the




13   environment.  Now, unlike these explicit requirements,




14   that is a very broad statement which can be interpreted




15   to include such things as protecting ground water from




16   leachate, protecting surface water from run-off,




17   protecting air emissions, perhaps even  things like  odor




18   and noise could conceivably be covered  under this sectio^i




19   of the Act.




20                  And  unlike  the explicit  provisions there




21   is,of course^ a lot  of discussion and debate within  EPA




22   and among all  the people  who are acquainted with  this




23   Act just what  exactly that provision should cover




2"1                  These standards also must  be promulgated




25   in eighteen  months.

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                                                             23
 1                  Section  3005 of  the Act  is  for  permits




 2   for people who treat, store, and  dispose of  hazardous




 3   wastes.  And these permits then are  to  be  issued with




 4   the standards that were promulgated  under  Section 3004




 5   so that facilities who meet those standards  can  receive




 6   a permit.




 7                  The law  has provision for interim permits




 8   while the program gets  started.   So  that anyone  who is




 9   in existence, if he  simply writes a  letter to  EPA -




10   don't write it now because now  is not the  time -




11   informing EPA of his existence, he has  an  interim permit




12   under the law until  EPA gets around  to  issuing these




13   permits.




14                  I say EPA.  If the jjtates assume  the




15   program, the states  will  issue  these permits,  not EPA.




16   EPA will only issue  permits for those states that do




17   not assume the program.




18                  Section  3006 is  to authorize  jtate




19   programs.  And this  is  where EPA  will be promulgating




20   guidelines for what  constitutes state programs.   And




21   there are several different kinds of authorization.




22                  There is the permanent authorization.




23   And there is also an interim authorization where Congress




24   allows, for several  years after — while the program




25   is getting started up,  recognizing  that many states

-------
                                                            24

    have hazardous waste or solid waste laws that are not
 2   too much like the federal law, these states could,
 3   nevertheless, receive interim authorization while the
 4   details of getting the laws into line are worked out.
                   So that almost any _state, I would say -
    I think that was the intent of Congress - that almost
    any state that did have a hazardous waste act in existen
    when this Act came on  would receive interim authorization
 9   to continue to handle the program if they chose  to do
10
11                  For the ultimate authorization Congress
12   requires that the state program be equivalent to the
13   federal program, consistent with other state programs,
    and adequate enforcement of Subtitle C.
15                  Now you have to recognize that
    words are not too precise.  So there is some latitude
17   and discretion on the part of the Administrator as to
18   what these words mean.  And I suggest that if you have
19   any strong feelings about what they mean that you write
20   to us and let us know what you think they should mean.
2i                  Section 3010 does not, strictly speaking,
22   require any act on the part of EPA.  This requires that
23   anyone who generates, transports, treats, stores, or
24   disposes of hazardous wastes, after a certain date, must
25   inform EPA of its existence or be in violation of the lair.

-------
    And  that  date would  be after  the  date  of  the  promulgatiop




    of regulations  under Section  3001.   Which,  in theory,



    should  be  eighteen months  from  the  passage  of the  law.




                    However, EPA has  taken  upon  itself  to  --



    under  this section,  to try to notify everyone who  could



    possibly  come under  this provision  of  the Act,  to




    acquaint  them of  the jeopardy they  suffer by  not




    informing EPA of  their existence.   They could be subject




    to fines  and closing of their operation.




 10                  So we will  attempt to notify the



 11  affected  parties  of  this provision  of  the Act before




 12  they are  in jeopardy.



 13                  Section 3011 calls for  assistance to



 I4  the  states in implementing the  state programs.   This



    does not  include  construction grants or grants  to  build



    facilities and  the  like.   But this  is  basically grants




 17  to hire professionals and  train them for  the  program.



 18  And  Congress requires a complicated allocation formula



 19  for  allocating  these funds



                    And  I think that about  wraps up Section



 21  3000,  Subtitle  c.  Do we have time  for questions?




 22                  Mould you step up to the microphone,




 23  pleaae?  And I  think you had  better give your name and




 24  affiliation for the  record.




25                  MR.  RISKERi My  name is Fred Risker.  I
                                                              25

-------
                                                              26
 1             an an attorney  for  Exxon.   I have several




 2             questions  to  ask  you.




 3                  In  the December  '75  issue of the Federal




 4             Register^ the  EPA  propagated a list of




 5             hazardous  substances  and  some -- I guess some




 6             concepts that are similar  to Section 3001 on




 7             characterization  of hazardous substances.




 8                  Can we expect  to see  this type of list




 9             under 3001 or activation  of that proposed list?




10                  MR. SrtNJOURs  Well,  as I said, the Act




11             authorizes two  different  ways to define a




12             hazardous  waste.   One is  by criteria.  And




13             the  other is  by a list of  wastes.




14                  And it gives the Administrator discretion




15             to  use  one or both of those methods.  Now if




16             he  chooses to use the criteria approach which




17             would mean a  series of tests fo.r various




18             attributes of wastes  including toxicity then




19             he  would no doubt have to list those specific




20             chemicals which we are testing for,  if we are




21             testing for chemicals.




22                   So if we go the  criteria route  then no




23             doubt chemicals will  have to be  listed.  If




24             we  go the list  of hazardous wastes  route then




25             no  doabt chemicals will have  to  be  listed

-------
                                                              27
 1              there,  or industries,  or some combination of




 2              the  two.




 3                   MR.  RISKER:   One  problem is that a lot of




 4              companies are compiling lists of toxic substan




 5              to control.   And  then  also with this notifica-




 6              tion requirement  under 3010, it is going to ta




 7              a  while to gear up and find out what you are




 8              handling  so  you can notify EPA.




 9                   If there is  going to be an immediate




 10              notification requirement as soon as the list




 11              is published, you know, at least we can get




 12              tipped  off as to  what  is coming.




 13                   MR.  SANJOUR:  I am aware of that problem.




 14              Too,  two  points»   In general if you have any




 15              doubt about  whether you generate a hazardous




 16              waste or  not under Section 3010, you might as




 17              well send in a notification.  You have nothing




 18              to lose.




 19                   If you  don't have a hazardous waste and




 20              you  send  in  a notification nothing is lost.




 21              If you  do hove a  hazardous waste and do not




 22              send in a notification then you are subject to




 23              some severe  penalties.




 24                   So we recognize that fact.  In fact, the




25              form we are  designing  says:  Do you have
:es

-------
                                                             28
              hazardous wastes?  Yes. No.  Not sure.




 2                  And I expect we are going to have some




 3             come in:  Not sure.




                   In that case we will send you a big  thick




 5             package telling you what you have to do to




 6             ascertain whether or not you have a hazardous




 7             waste.




 8                  MR. RISKERi  Okay.  That is interesting.




 9             Because what about land farming type of




10             operations?  Some people, you know, are saying




              things like tank bottoms, you know, things




12             like that have hazardous aspects to  them.  We




'3             don ' t know.




14                  MR. SANJOURi  we will  define the  hazardous




'5             wastes in time for the notification system.




                   MR. RISKBRj  Okay.




17                  MR. SANJOURs  That will  be defined.  We




              certainly will not require  anyone to determine




19             whether he has a hazardous  waste before we




20             define what we mean by hazardous waste.




21                  MR. RISKERi  Thank you.




22                  MR. SANJOURs  Any more questions? I




23             noticed when I walked  in  here  I saw some  very




              well-thumbed copies of the  Act.




25                  MR. STANFORDs  I am  Geoffrey Stanford.

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                                                           29






              You held a hearing in Houston last fall which




 2            was very well attended




 3                 I prepared a careful paper for




 4            presentation and time ran out and I handed  it




 5            to the stenographer and I have heard nothing




 6            since.  And I am wondering  if anything happen*3




              to paper or whether 1 should have heard or




 8            wha t.




 '                 MR. SANJOUHi  Do you have a copy of  the




              proceedings of that meeting?




'I                 MR. STANFORD:  No, I wasn't sent one.




'2                 MK. SANJDUR:  Well, you have to buy  it




13            if you want one.  They are  for sale.  You




              can write to me in fact.




15                 MR. STANFORD:  I wasn't notified they




              were available.




'7                 MR. SANJOUR:  I think  it was announced




18            at the beginning of the meeting that the




"            transcript would be available for sale.   That




20            was announced at the beginning of this meeting




21             I didn't attend the Houston meeting but I




22             have attended several others where that



91
              announcement was made.




                   AS to what happened to your testimony,




              well, we certainly didn't get back to everyone

-------
                                                             30
 1             and tell them what  happened to their testimony


 2             We are not going  to do  that for this meeting


 3             either.


 4                  But I can  tell you that,  that testimony


 5             has been poured  through,  cited, quoted, clipped


 g             out, and pasted  in  a dozen different documents


 7             which have greatly  influenced -- those series


 8             of hearings have  greatly influenced the


 9             directions we have  taken and have influenced


10             the legislation  that was passed.

                   "FCK0
11                 ._R»e-t«-, the  legislation that was just


12             passed, has this  waste  portion which was very


13             largely influenced  by that testimony.


14                  And the kinds  of things that we heard at


15             those meetings  were brought up with Congress


16             when they were  considering drafting this


17             legislation.  Right now it did have a tremendo


18             impact and will  continue to have a tremendous


19             impact even if  you  have not been personally


20             acknowledged.   The  rest of us never get


21             personally acknowledged either.


22                  Any more questions?  Yes, sir.


23                  MR. BRYAN:   I  am Keith Bryan with


24             International Paper Company.  Have you gone


25             very far in defining what constitutes a

-------
              generator of a hazardous material?  I am



              thinking at this moment of the proposed

 3
              regulations on the pretreatment on the water

 A
              side where they theoretically at least in  this



              very building because of the cooling tower



              are a generator of hazardous wastes.  Because



              if that program follows through they are going

 o
              to have to take the chromium and that sort  of

 9
              thing out of the cooling tower blowdown as



              required under the pretreatment guideline.



                   So that is going to be maybe a gallon  of



              stuff once a week.  Is this building a



              generator of hazardous waste as you perceive



14             its definition under this Act?



15                 MR. SANJOURj  No.  The Act — if you  go



              through it, and perhaps you have to be a lawyer



              or a bureaucrat to do it, a hazardous waste


18
              has to be a solid waste.


19
                   A solid waste is defined  in the Act as


20
              any solid, liquid, or gas that is not


21
              discharged, not discharged, to a river or  a


22
              stream, that is not discharged to a sewer.



                   MH. BRYANi  That is my point.  You can't


24
              discharge it without —



                   MR. SANJOURj  If you bring it to a

-------
                                                              32
 1             landfill,  then  it  is  a  solid waste.   If you




 2             send  it  down  the sewer  then it is not a solid




 3             waste.   All right?




 4                   UNIDENTIFIED  SPEAKER:   Then it's a




 5             violation.




 6                   MR. BRYAN:  If you can't send it down




 7             the sewer.




 8                   MR. SANJOUR:   Then it  is a solid waste.




 9                   MR. BRYAN:  Then is this building a




10             generator  of  solid waste?




11                   MR. SANJOUR:   All  right.  Now then, if




'2             the waste  that  you are  generating — yes, you




13             are right.  You a re a generator of solid waste




14                   Now are  you a generator of a hazardous




15             waste,  that depends upon the definition of




16             hazardous  waste because you haven't defined




17             it.   You may  or may not be.




18                   if  you are a  generator of hazardous




19             waste,  you may  still  be exempt because we are




20             no doubt reasonable  people  in spite of what




21             you may  think of  us in Washington.  We will




22             no doubt have to put  in some kind of an




23             exemption  for small generators.  There has  to




24             be some  kind  of system where every person  in




25             America  is not  a generator of hazardous waste

-------
                                                               33
 1              because  he throws out a ballast from a




 2              florescent light.  There has to be some  kind




 3              of  a  provision for a small generator and




 4              perhaps  you would not be a generator of




 5              hazardous waste even if the waste were




 d              hazardous under such a provision.  We will




 7              have  to  wait and see.




 8                   But if you have a specific comment  I




 9              suggest  you put it in writing and mail  it  to




10              us.   Because we can better define these




11              borderline cases if we have a large number  of




12              examples of borderline cases in front of us.




13                   If  we Know what the realm of stupid thing




14              to  do are, like people sending us examples  on




15              paper,  then we can better thread our way




16              through  it.  The more information we have  the




17              better regulations can be written.




18                   Yes, sir.




19                   MR. RISKER:  The Texas Water Quality




20              Board is currently using a three-way trip




21              ticket system for disposal of hazardous  waste,




22              I gues's  the waste generator to the disposal




23              contractor.




24                   is  this manifest system that you are




25              proposing going to be similar to that?

-------
                                                               34
 1                  MR.  S4NJOUR:   Precisely.  It was copied




 2             after  --  Congress  had in mind when it wrote




 3             that section the system used in Texas and




 4             California.




 5                  MR.  RISKER:  Okay.  I got the impression




 6             also that you are  looking at the producer  of




 7             potential hazardous waste, of keeping a  record




 8             of  this  item before final disposal.




 9                  MR.  SANJOUR:   Well, at a minimum the




10             producer  has to fill out that part of the  trip




11             ticket that  defines the waste and the quantity




12             All  right?




13                  MR.  RISKER:  You mean at production?




14                  MR.  S/iNJOUR:   Yes.




15                  MR.  RISKER:  Okay.




16                  MR.  SANJOUR:   He has to say what the




17             waste  is.  You can't expect  the collector  to




18             know what it is he is picking up.  The




19             generator has to tell him what  it is  so he has




20              to  describe  it  to some  extent.




21                  MR.  RISKER:  Okay.   I  —




22                  MR.  SaNJOUR:  Now  what  record-keeping




23             he  has to do oeyond  that  is  really not  defined




24              in  the Act.   It is a questioned what  gets




25              worKed out  in the  regulations.

-------
                                                               35
 1                 MR.  RISKER:  Okay.  The real thing I am




 2             getting  at is:   At the.point of determining




 3             where  the record-keeping is started.




 4                 Should it  be at the point where the




 5             hazardous suostance is set for disposal?   Is




 6             it  going to be  at the point the item is




 7             included in some other product?  A lot of




 8             substances are  going to be by-products.




 9                 MR.  SANJOUR: I see your point.  It is at




 10             the point of generation that it is going to




 11              have to  be tracked.  Now I recognize that  ther




 12             is  ambiguity in what you mean by generation




 13              and what you mean by waste.  Is it something




 14              you occasionally sell?  Is it a waste? or  is




 15             it  a oy-product?




 16                  This is one  of the fine points that we




 17             are going to have to thread our way through




 18              and define  when   it is a waste at the point




 19             of  generation.   For example, in the case of




 20              a sewerage treatment plant you get a sludge.




 21              What is  the point of generation of that sludge




 22              When do  you start considering it a waste and




 23              keeping  track of it?




 24                  These things will have to be defined  in




25              the regulations.   They have not been done  so

-------
                                                             36
 1             yet.  And  this  again  is  an area  where if you




 2             feel you have some  problems,  write us a letter




 3             The more examples we  have  in  front of us of




 4             the kind of  problems  we  will  run into when we




 5             issue permits,  of people coming  back to us and




 6             saying:  is  this a  waste or isn't it?  The




 7             more familiar we are  with  those  kinds of




 8             problems in  advance the  better we can write




 9             our regulations so  we don't have to solve them




10             after the  fact.




11                  MR. RISKER:  I guess  there  is another




12             problem I  was having  too with the — well, I




13             guess it is  this whole thing, the paper work




14             problem.   Will  we have any review process of




15             the characterization  of  substances?  You know,




16             because in one  situation,  you know, it might,




17             you know,  prove leachate -- it might have




18             leachate characteristics which would be toxic




19             or hazardous where  in another situation




20             because of the  topography of the land or what




21             have you it  would —  you know, it might be




22             biodegradable or  something of this nature.




23                  ^versus, you  know, just characterizing




24             something  across  the  board and not looking at




25             the unique circumstances.

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                                                              37





                   MR.  SANJOUR:   The definition of hazardous




 2             wastes  logically cannot depend upon what you




 3             du with it.   The reason for that is the law




 4             only gives  regulatory authority over hazardous




 5             wastes.




 $                  The  obverse of that is that there is no




 7             regulatory  authority for non-hazardous wastes.




 8             So that if  the  law says a waste is non-hazardcjus




 9             then the  law has no say in how that waste is




10             disposed.




1]                  MR.  HICKMAN:   Sometimes Subtitle C does.




12                  MR.  SANJOUR:   No.  Well, we can debate




13             that point.   In any event, the only way — so




14             therefore in defining a hazardous waste you




15             cannot  consider how it will be disposed,




16             specifically.  Because you have no guaranty




17             it will be  disposed of in that way.  Do you




18             follow  me?




19                  MR.  RISKER:  Okay.  I can see your




20             argument.




21                  MR.  SANJOUR:   I mean, you can sit there




22             — anybody  can sit there and say:  I am going




23             to dispose  of this in an excellent way.  Okay,




24             your waste  is non-hazardous, fine.  Then we




25             have no legal -- there is no legal recourse  it

-------
   I                                                          38




 1              you  don't  do that because it is not a hazardous




 2              waste.   Do you follow me?




 3                   MR. RISKER:   Okay.




 4                   MR. SANJOURj  So it has to be defined,




 5              and  our current thinking is that we will try




 6              try  to  define hazardous waste in this way:




 7                   We will sort of ask ourselves the questio^i:




 8              What kinds of things could happen to this




 9              waste if it didn't come under this system  that




10              are  among  the normal things that do happen




11              to wastes  and is  that tolerable.




12                   If the answer is yes then the waste is




13              not  hazardous.  If it is no then the waste  is




14              hazardous.  That  is a philosophical approach.




15                   MR. RISKERi   Okay.  One of the things  I




16              have been  looking at recently is the Texas




17              Water Uuality Board's characterizations  of




18              classes of dumping sites and/or disposal sites.




19                   You know, are you going to use that type




20              of system?  You know, a substance  type might




21              be classified as  class one?




22                   MR. SANJOUR:  Very likely.  But  that




23              determination would be made only after  the




24              determination of the waste as hazardous.




25                   MR. RISKER:   Okay.

-------
                                                               39
 1                   MR.  SANJOUR:  And if the waste  is




 2              hazardous then there is the determination  to




 3              be  made  of how it is to be disposed.




 4                   MR.  RISKER:  Okay.




 5                   MR.  SANJOUR:  And yes, that kind of




 4              consideration will no doubt come into play




 7              when  you  dispose of it.




 8                   MR.  RISKER:  But the real problem  is  that




 9              maybe a  new disposal site, you know, or a




10              technique or something might not make a




11              characterization of something a class one  or




12              something of this nature practical.




13                   What I am saying is there should be some




14              type  of  appeal  procedure set up.  You  know,




15              if  a  new -- technological advance  for the




16              disposing of something or the handling  of




17              something.  For instance -- how are  you sure




18^             that  it  will be used?




19                   MR.  SANJOUR:  If you have the technology




20              you can't be sure that it will be  used.




21                   MR.  RISKER:  well, you will through your




22              trip  ticket.




23                   MR.  SANJOUR:  Well, but if you  don't




24              declare  a waste hazardous it doesn't require a




25              trip  ticket.  So how can you be assured -- if

-------
                                                             40

 1

              you be assured  it  will  be  disposed of in that
              way?
 4
                   MR.  RISKER:  The  problem is a substance
              might be  hazardous  — you know, you might have
              a  terminal  exposure problem with it but if you
              dispose of  it  in  a  certain way or store it in
 8
              a  certain way  it  won't pose a problem.

                   MR.  SANJOUR:  But if I don't classify
              that waste  as  being legally hazardous, how
              can I assure  that you will dispose of it in
12
              the proper  way?
                   MR.  RISKBR:   Well — yeah, I can see that
              type of argument  which is always thinking of
              the worse.   But at  the same time for a
16
              responsible company that have —
                   MR.  SANJOUR:  How do we determine the
18
              responsible companies from the irresponsible
19
              companies?   Hre we  going to write guidelines
20
              on that?
                   MR.  RISKER:  Well, I don't know.
22
                   MR.  SANJOUR:  I don't know either.
23
                   MR.  RISKER:   Seriously this is going to
24
              be a  problem.   The companies are going to come
25
              back  and  say:   Hey, we have been doing this.

-------
                                                             41
              we have  been  monitoring it this way.



 2                  MR. SANJOUR:   That's fine.  There's no



 3             problem.   That  means  you just fill out some



              papers.  If  the way you are disposing of your



              waste  presently even  if it is a hazardous



              waste  is perfectly adequate you will keep on



              doing  it.   It just means you are going to have



              to keep  some  records  of what you are doing



              and  send some of those records into the Agency



              that is  administering the program.  But that



11             doesn't  stop  you from doing what you are



12             doing.



                   For example,  if  you are incinerating



'              your waste.   Under this program you will go
15
               on  doing  it.   Or  if you have a landfill that
               is  impervious.   Okay?  You will get a permit



               for  that  landfill  and you will continue to



18              use  it.   But  now you have to file some papers



19              on  this.



20                  MR.  RISKERs   Okay.   And unlike a lot of



21              current states  that exempt private facilities


22
               this Act  will cover private facilities?



23                  MR.  SANJOUR:   Yes.



24                  MR.  KIRKMAN:   I am Mike Kirkman with



               Dow Industries.   We are in the business of

-------
                                                            42






 1             disposing  of  waste material that we are




 2             talking about.




 3                   The permitting,  does the federal government




 4             permit the  sites?




 5                   MR. SANJOUR:   The agency that is running




 6             the  program will  permit the sites, yes.  If




 7             the  state  governments assume the program —




 8                   MR. KIRKMAN:   You will leave it with  the


 g

 T             state governments?




10                   MR. SANJOUR:   If they want it.  We can't




11             make  them  take  it.




12                   MR. KIRKMAN:   Take for instance the —




13                   MR. SANJOUR:   I  hope they take it.  I




14             sure  don't  want it.




15                   MR. KIRKMAN:  The State of Texas, they




16             will  continue according to your guidelines




              operating  and do  the  permitting of those types




18             of disposal sites?




19                   MR. SANJOUR:   Right, yes.




20                   MR. KIRKMAN:   What about the transportati|on




21             of that material?




22                   MR. SANJOUR:   The transportation will




              not  be permitted.   Transporters would have  to



24
              register with the  agency that is running the




              program.   And they would have to keep records

-------
                                                              43





 1              on  their  wastes.   And they would have to




 2              comply  with certain record-keeping regulations




 3                   MR.  KIRKMANi   Presently in the State of




 4              Texas to  be permitted to haul any type of




 5              commodity which earlier you mentioned that




 6              waste was a marketable item, or an item that




 7              had a value to it, the Railroad Commission  is




 8              the agency that permits any type of




 9              transportation of  anything on the state




10              highways.  Right?




11                   MR.  SANJOURi   If you say so.  I am not




12              familiar  with Texas.




13                   MR.  KIRKMAN:   I mean, there is an




14              overlap there: the water Uuality Control Board,




15              the regulation of  wastes, and the transportation




16              of  it.




17                   MR.  SANJOUR:   Well, on the federal level




18              we  intend to coordinate the paper work




19              requirements with  the Department of Transportation




20              so  that we don't duplicate -- we use existing




21              paper work if it can be done.  Okay.  We are




22              working towards that.




23                   On the jjtate  level, we are talking about




24              state documents now, state agencies, that




25              would have to be worked out with the state

-------
                                                             44
              governments, not by  the  federal  government.


              I doubt very much  if  the federal government


              ran the program in the  state  --  I doubt very


              much  if the federal  government would be too
                          z*-

              concerned about wonting  in with  the s^tate


 6             paper work.  Correct  me  if I  am  wrong.


 7                  MR. KING:  My name  is Bob King and I


 8             work  for the Governor's  Energy Advisory


 '             Council.  I also  used to work for the Railroad


              Commission.


11                  What the  Railroad  Commission does  in


12             essence  is  gives  permits or certificates of


              convenience and necessity after  a public


14             hearing.


15                   If a transporter can show that his


              service  is  needed all that is necessary in


17             those cases  is to show that he has customers


18             that  require  his  service.  Then  he gets that


19             certificate.


                    The Rjilroad Commission will also set


21             rates  for moving  that waste similar to what


              the Department of Transportation does.   So I


23             don't see  that any of that conflicts with the


24             Department  of  —  the Water Quality Board in
25
               the case of industrial wastes, regulating and

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                                                              45
 1              tracking the waste across the state.




 2                   MR. KIRKMAN:  In comment to  that,  for




 3              instance, two years ago we were contacted by




 4              the State to move some barrels of hazardous




 5              waste material that was stored illegally from




 6              one site to a legal disposal site.




 7                   The Railroad Commission came in  and said




 8              you do not have a permit to haul  this waste




 9              material.  This was two years ago.




 10                   We filed for a permit to haul waste




 11              material of this nature.  The permit  as of




 12              two weeks ago was denied.  So we  spent  time,




 13              energy, a lot of money in attorney's  fees




 14              in applying for this permit.




 IS                   The hearing examiner suggested or  they




 16              recommended that the permit be granted  in




 17              its entirety.  Then it got to the person --




 18              I  guess the Railroad Commission,  they denied




 19              the permit.




 20                   In Dallas, Texas, for instance,  the




 21              closest company that is permitted to  haul




 22              that type of waste is four hundred miles from




 23              here.




 24                   if only one company requested it,  in




25              other words, if you have some waste material

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                                                            46
 j             that  you want moved  legally you have  to call




 2             somebody in Houston,  Texas,  to come  to Dallas




 3             to  pick it up.




 4                  MR. SANJOURj  You  are  saying most of the




 5             waste in Texas  is  being hauled illegally?




 6                  MR. KIRKMANj  Yes,  they are.




 7                  MR. KING:   If the  hazardous material is a




 8             oil and gas by-product  or a by-product of




 9             an  oil and gas  production then the Railroad




10             Commission is charged with pollution and




H             protecting the  environment in that area.




12                  Is that  the kind of thing you are talking




13             about?




14                  MR. KIRKMANi  No.   Paints, paint thinners




15             acids, caustics, inks,  any kind of waste




16             material either in a specialized container




17             or  bulk form.   There is not a permitted




18             carrier  in North Texas  to haul this waste




19             material whether it  is  one gallon or five




20             thousand  gallons.




21                  MR. KINGi   You  can —




22                  MR. SANJOURj   You  can pass beautiful laws




23                  MR.  KIRKMAN:   Run  that by again.




24                  MR.  SANJOURi   You can pass beautiful




25             laws  but  if  they are not enforced you don't

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                                                             47
 1             have much.



 2                  Thank you.



 3                  MR. LOZANOt  Let's  go  ahead  and  take  our




 4             fifteen minute break now.   There  is a  snack




 5             bar on the 23th floor.   Please  take the




 6             elevator down one floor,  go around the




 7             hallway.  It is in  that  part  of the building.




 8             Please take the elevator because  I an  not  sure




 9             the stairwells haven't been locked.  Please




10             come back in fifteen minutes.




11                       (After a  short recess the following




12                       proceedings were  hadi)



13                  MR. LOZANOi  Could  we  get  back together




14             now, please?




15                  Our next presentation  will be made  by



16             Mr. Lanny Hickman subbing for Dr. John Skinner



17             who will speak on land disposal.




18                  MR. HICKMAN«   There are  some neat



19   characteristics about the way various parts of this  law



20   tie together.  This first section,  3001,  we are  required




21   to define criteria for what is a hazardous  waste.  And




22   as Bill said, those things which do not fit that



23   criteria are not hazardous wastes.




24                  And Subtitle D in the  land disposal




25   provisions. Subtitle D, and Section 3008  on guidelines

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 1
 2                  We ought  to review  four  definitions
 3   because these  four definitions are  very important when
    you start to understand  the  land disposal  provisions  of
 5   the law, how they interrelate with  the  hazardous  waste
 6
 7   of the state and local  programs  for  solid  waste
 8   management.
                   Now under the  old law 'disposal"  was
10

11

12
13
14

15
16
17

18

19

20

21

22
23

24

25
                                                             48
    basically addresses how  those wastes must  be managed.
    provisions, and how they  interrelate  with  the  development
more used as a generic  term of  solid  waste  management
and covered from soup to nuts in  solid waste management.
               This new law, the  amendments of  1976,
disposal is redefined basically to  really focus on  the
placing   of wastes: on, in,around, and  through the land
And so now it reflects actually the term disposal rather
than the generic term management.   There is a definition
                                      ft
of solid waste management now  in
               It also defines  open  dump.   And  it says:
All those sites which do not fit  the criteria for
sanitary landfill are open  dumps.  And  then it  defines
sanitary landfill by saying a  sanitary  landfill is those
      which EPA will describe  within the  criteria
required under another provision  of  the law which I will
review in just a second.
               And  the last, as Bill mentioned, solid wa
                                                             ste

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 3
 4
 10




 11




 12




 13




 14




 15




 16




 17




 18




 19




 20




 21




 22




 23




 24




25
                                                          49






 now  -  only  Congress  could  do  this  - solid wastes can




 now  be liquid  and  gas  and  everything in between.  You




 might  think that federal bureaucrats might try to do




 that.   But  we  have never tried  to  do that since we have




 been in business since 1966.  But  Congress did.  They




 include sludges, semi-sludges,  semi-solids,  super goo,




 red  mud,  liquids,  anything that is not covered by JTPDES




 and  I  am sure  there  is a twist  here with the Clean Air




 Act.




                So  the  intention of the law as it relates




 to waste materials on the land whether hazardous or




 non-hazardous  is  to  put them  under some management




 scheme.  Either a  very closely  managed scheme under the




 hazardous waste provision  or  a  broader management




 scheme under the  land  disposal  state programmed resource




 conservation provisions.   So  let's have a look at what




 these  things mean.




                Okay.  Within  one year of the enactment




 of the law  - that  is now  some six months away - EPA,




 under  Section 4004,  must  issue  criteria for classifying




sanitary landfills, open dumps.   And in that classification




 and  in the  criteria  for those two types of disposal




 sites, you  must consider  the  reasonable probability of




 adverse effects in order  to make the judgement  on what




 is a sanitary landfill and what is an open dump.

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                                                            50
                   And it says that state plans must require




    - state solid waste plans - must require disposal in




    sanitary landfills.   Now we are going to talk about




    Subtitle D.   We of course are going to talk about that




    on state development.




                   Under Subtitle D the states must develop




    — states can develop, in cooperation with local




    government - comprehensive solid waste management plans




    to cover all aspects of solid waste, hazardous and non-




10   hazardous and all those other things that the law now




11   defines as solid waste.




12                  Now twelve months after EPA issues this




'3   criteria for sanitary landfill and open dumps, by the




14   end of twelve months they must have conducted an




15   inventory of all the open dumps covered by that criteria




16   and publish that list.  Publish a list of all those




    disposal sites found to meet the criteria for open dumps




                   Now this list then becomes, in effect,




1'   violation of federal law.  Because those sites are not




20   in compliance with the criteria for sanitary landfill.




21   The law says that all wastes will go to sanitary landfil




22   unless they are handled under a regulatory program under




23   the provisions for handling of hazardous wastes sections




24   of the law.




25                  So  in effect, those sites — that list

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                                                              51
 1    becomes  a  hit  list.   And anybody can sue the owner or


 2    operator of  that  site in the federal court system


 3    for  violation  of _f edera 1 law.   The federal government
                     ^                  ^"

 4    cannot do  that.   The  federal  government does not have


 5    the  regulatory authority to go in and regulate against


 6    improper disposal sites.


 7                  The  only way that these sites can be


 8    protected  from being  subject  to suit in the federal


 9    court system is for  the states to proceed to set up some


 10    sort of  umbrella  planning through the state planning


 11    process  authorized  under Subtitle D to either convert


 12    or to close  those sites, convert them to bring them into


 13    compliance with the  sanitary  landfill criteria.


 14                  And  the jstates  have five years — the


 15    owners and operators  of those  sites have five years


 16    after this is  published to either convert or close those


 17    sites.


 18                  Section  1008 requires EPA to issue


 19    guidelines on  solid waste management practices.  And


 20    the  first  ones must be  issued  within twelve months and


 21    from time  to time thereafter.


 22                  The  concept,  of course, that we are


 23    proceeding on  is  the  guidelines is a set of guidances


 24    that establishes a  course of  direction for someone to


25    try  and  reach  the purpose —  to try and go somewhere.

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 '                  It is descriptive as opposed  to




 2   prescriptive.  And the way the Office  is now proceeding



 3   with the guidelines section of the law and the criteria



    sections of the law for open dumps and sanitary  landfill



    is to lay down a criteria and then to  write  guidelines



 *   for acceptable ways to meet the intent of the criteria




 7   under the sanitary landfill-open dump  provisions.




 8                  And in these guidelines we have to


 g

    consider the technical-economic aspect and the level  of



10   performance that can be achieved to protect  public



11   health and environment.  Now that is  the first twelve



12   months.



13                  Then within twenty-four months of



    enactment of the law the guidelines have to  include



15   level of performance, levels of control, protect ground



    and surface waters, public health and  environment,



    comply with the provisions of the Clean Air  Act, comply


18
    with all the provisions of the Federal Water Pollution


19
    Control Act, and consider and take care  of  the disease


20
    and vector and safety and aesthetic problems related to




    improper practices.


22
                   The two  guidelines that the  Office has




    under development now,  the land disposal guidelines  which


24
    will support the criteria for sanitary landfills and


25
    open dumps, and one for the deposition of  sludge on  the
                                                              52

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                                                              53






     land.




                    The  guidelines  for land disposal will be




     ready at  the  same  time that the  criteria  will be




     published for open  dumps  and sanitary landfills which




     will be by October  21,  1977.  And the sludge disposal




     guidelines will be  ready  a  year  after that.




                    There  are  a  lot of questions  that one




     immediately raises.   Now  with  the law being  as broad as




     it  is with land disposal  and wastes and the  fact that




 10   this inventory has  to be  done,  can one effectively phase




 11   this inventory or must one  do  all of it because it does




 12   not include municipal solid waste disposal sites.   It




 13   includes  pitch ponds  and  lagoons which might receive




     liquid waste  which  do not fall under the  hazardous waste




 15   provisions of the law




 16                  it  in  effect covers such things as




 17   agricultural  waste  disposal sites, mining wastes,  other




 '8   industrial waste sites, any land disposal site receiving




 "   a waste not covered under that hazardous  waste provision




 20   of  the law will have  to be  covered in this inventory.




 21                  So you immediately start to ask all sorts




 22   of  questions  about  how far  can this inventory go,  what




     is  reasonable,  what can the states do because in effect




 24   the states are the  ones who should do the inventory




25   because they  are the  ones who must establish programs

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                                                             54

    to get  these  sites  converted  or  closed and see  that only
    sanitary  landfills  are  open afterward.  There are a lot
    of questions  relating to  the  land  disposal provisions.
 4
                    But  in effect,  between the hazardous
    waste regs and  provisions of  Reera and the land disposal
 6   provisions under Subtitle D and  the resource conservatio|n
    provisions under Subtitle D,  the state planning and
 P
    development aspects of  the law,  all these things tie
 9
    together  so there  is  only three  ways that solid waste
    by this definition  can  got through the hazardous waste
    program provisions,  through the  land, or through the
    resource  conservation mechanisms.
                    So  that  covers  the  land disposal aspects,
    I believe.  Do  you  have questions?   Yes, sir.
                    MR.  BRYAN: My name is Keith Bryan, agair
16
               for the  record, with International Paper
               Company.   In  the handout under Item 2 you
18
               cite  40  CFR,  Part 241  entitled Guidelines for
19
               the Land  Disposal of Solid Waste.
20
                    At  the  time these guidelines were published
21
               I chose  not  to  comment on them - I am sure
22
               a lot of  other  people  did - because they were
23
               voluntary guidelines to  federal facilities
24
               and did  not have the force of regulation
25
               against  those federal  facilities or to any

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                                                             55






 1             other person.  Any other person,  for  that




 2             matter.




 3                  And if the Agency proposes  to  present




 4             these voluntary guidelines  of  the federal




 5             government to  the state as  the model  for




 6             sanitary landfills,  I submit  that,  that  is an




 7             illegal act on the part of  this  Agency and




 8             that the Agency is required to publish those




 '             guidelines for public comment  before  they can




'0             be used by any state agency as a guide.




11                  MR. HICKMAN:  First,  let  me make it clear




12             that those are not voluntary  guidelines  to the




13             federal government.  The federal government,




'4             under the 1970 amendments  of  the law. Section




15             209, required  £PA to issue  guidelines for




16             solid waste management and  required that the




'7             Jederif.l government,  federal agencies, comply




18             with those guidelines.  They  were not voluntary




"             for the federal government.  They were




20             recommendatory lor state and  local  governments




21             for their use  as  they see  fit.




22                  MR. BRYAN:   I think we are  talking  about




              a different set of guidelines.  Because  I




24             checked at the break to determine if  this wer




              the case.  Are we now talking  about —

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                                                             56
 !                  MR. HICKMAN:  I am talking about




 2                  MR. BRYAN:  — the guidelines —




 3                  MR. HICKMAN:  I am talking here about




 4             issuing land disposal guidelines under Section




 5             1008 of the new law.  And the law requires  tha




 6             we go through the public hearing and public




 7             participation exercise before these guidelines,




 3             are issued.  The law requires it and we will




 9             meet the requirements of the law.




10                  MR. BRYAN:  The guidelines that are




11             referred to in the handout document are not




12             the same thing that you now refer to.




13                  Is that correct?




14                  MR. HICKMAN:  That is correct.  I am




15             referring  to those issued under the old law,




16             the Solid  Waste Disposal Act as amended by  the




17             Resource Recovery Act of 1970, Section  209




18             guideline.




19                  MR. BRYAN:  And that is not 40 CFR  241?




20                  MR. HICKMAN:  It could be.  I don't  know.




21             Let me  see what you have got.




22                  MR. BRYAN:  I have your handout.




23                  MR. CANFIBLD:  Well, I  see a lot  of




24             handouts.




25                  MR. HICKMAN:  All  it says  here  iss

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                                                             57
 l                   RCRA's  new and more comprehensive definit




 2              and the  continuing prevalent use of land for




 3              the disposal of solid waste indicate that the




 4              current  "Guidelines for the Land Disposal of




 5              Solid tfaste" - 40 CFR,  Part 241 - be expanded




 6              or  otherwise revised.




 1                   And that is just what I said.  This was




 8              issued under the old law prior to the 1976




 9              amendments and they will be reconstituted




10              under Section 1008 and will meet all the




11              requirement  of Recra for public participation




12              and hearing.




13                   MR. BRYAN:  In other words, before they




14              will be  utilized by this Agency as a guideline




15              by  any state they will be republished for




16              public comment.  Is that correct?




17                   MR. CANFIELDj  Yes.




18                   MR. HICKMAN:  They were published for




19              public comment before.




20                   MR. BRYAN:  They were not.




21                   MR. HICKMAN:  Sir, you are incorrect.




22              They were.   They were published in the Federaj.




23              Register for public comment.




24                   MR. BRYAN:  As they affect federal




25              facilities.
ions

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                                                              58
 l                  MR. HICKMANi  That's right.




 2                  MR. BRYAN«  That is correct.




 3                  HR. HICKMANi  But they will be published




 4             again.



 5                  MR. BRYANi  Thank you very much.   Before



 6             they are used toy the Agency --




 7                  MR. HICKMANi The law requires us  to




 8             publish them in proposed fora for public




 9             comment oefora they can be promulgated in  finajl




10             form.



11                  MR. BRYANi  That wasn't my question.




l2             My question wast  Whether or not  they  will



13             be used as guidelines by any state prior  to



14             an opportunity for the public to  comment  on



15             them?



16                  MR. HXCKMANi  No, they will  not.




I7                  MR. BRYAN: Thank you.



18                  MR. LOZANOi  Other questions?




19                        (No response)




20                  MR. HICKMANi  Well, I guess  we will  go




2'             on then, huh?




22                  MR. LOZANOi  Our next speaker  is  Mr.  Tom




23             Canfield who  is Chief, Waste #*&duction Brand




24             Office  of  Solid Waste,  talking  about  resource




25             conservation and  recovery and  overall  technics

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                                                              59





 1             assistance.




 2                  MR. CANFIELDs  We have not  talked about




 3   resource conservation and recovery yet.  And yet this is




 4   the name of the Act, the Resource Conservation and




 5   Recovery Act, and we think Congress named  it that




 6   because they do feel that this is the focus of the  long




 7   term federal action.




                   I feel that they wrestled with a concrete




 9   way to bring about resource conservation and recovery




10   and have settled righc now for a major land disposal




11   program and hazardous waste program to bring about




12   resource recovery and conservation in the  long term.




13                  Before I go into the slides I would  like




14   to make a couple of points about resource  conservation




IS   and recovery.  The first point is we don't feel that




16   resource conservation and recovery will replace the need




17   for land disposal.




'8                  Over the next decade even under our  most




19   optimistic assumptions of resource recovery the waste




20   destined for land will increase.  But we feel that




    resource recovery and conservation can have a significant




22   impact on land disposal at the local level.




23                  Resource recovery and resource conservation




24   can divert a significant portion of waste  away from




25   disposal and thus lessen the pressure to use land for

-------
 1   disposal sites.




 2                  Resource conservation and recovery are




 3   increasing.    The rate of new plants that are being



 4   built for resource recovery and the number of systems,




 5   other kinds of resource recovery systems, since 1970 far



 6   exceeds that of the 1960's.




 7                  There is much more interest in comnunitie




 8   We continue to do status reports that show increasing




 9   interest and efforts by communities and planning for



10   resource recovery.




!'                  Over the long term we think that resource




'2   recovery and resource conservation will continue to



'3   increase.  Just the sheer problems of scarcity of



14   materials, of some materials, scarcity of some forms of




15   energy, and the problems of finding more and more land



^   for disposal works to increase resource recovery.



17                  This Act, we feel, will accelerate the




18   pace of resource recovery and resource conservation and




19   the major way is through improving land disposal sites.



20                  These will shut off the unacceptable




21   cheap option for land disposal and make the economics  of




22   resource recovery more favorable to many more communities



23                  We think the Act really reinforces many o




24   the things that EPA has been doing.  And  the major  thingjs




25   we have been doing is evaluations of recovery systems
                                                             60

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                                                            61
    both large scale plants and what people would consider




    low technology systems, separation of the waste at the




 3   home followed by separate collections for materials




 4   recovery.




 5                  The second thing that we have been doing




    is to give aid to local and state governments to try to




 7   overcome the non-technical, non-economic barriers to


 o

    recovery!   such things as how to prepare an RFP, how to


 p

    obtain financing for resource recovery systems.




                   And the third thing we have been doing




    are policy studies on ways to reduce wastes.
12
IS
                   I would like to go into the slides and
13   cover the specific sections that address resource



14   conservation and recovery and cover a little bit about
    overall technical assistance.
                   The major point I would like to make abou




    resource recovery and resource conservation is that it



18
    is not in a nice, neat subtitle in this Act, as is



19
    hazardous wastes or as is land disposal.  It is spread




20   throughout the Act.




                   This is a mere listing of the areas where



22
    we think resource recovery and resource conservation cut




    across the Act. And I will go through some slides which


24
    discuss all of these sections except two: Section 1008,




    guidelines, and Section 6004, the fact that federal

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 8




 9




10




11





12




13




14




IS




16




17




18




19




20




21




22




23




24




25
                                                             62
1   agencies must comply with guidelines issued under this




   Act.




                  So the first one I would like to start




   with is technical assistance.  Section 2003 authorizes




5   technical assistance by EPA and is titled: Resource




   Conservation and Recovery Panels for assistance.  But




   it is really much broader than that.  It  is meant to cut




   across all the kinds of assistance the Agency can give.




   The efforts in technical assistance are not meant to be




   merely federal officials giving assistance to local




   communities.  But it is to be composed of people from




   states, consultants, various interest groups, a wide




   range of people tying together to give assistance to a




   local or state government upon request.




                  The Act cites that twenty  per cent of




   the general appropriation for this Act is to go for  thes




   kinds of technical assistance, this kind  of technical




   assistance.




                  Well, we have touched a little bit on




   Subtitle D and the four thousand series which are a  part




   of Subtitle D and we will cover these points a  little




   bit again.  But I do want to highlight:   EPA must give




   guidance to the states  in their planning  programs and




   implementation programs.  And that  the state plans  must




   reflect resource recovery,  resource conservation, and

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 10


 11


 12


 13


 14


 15


 16


 17


 18


 19


 20


 21


 22


 23


 24


25
                                                        63



 consider  markets  for  recovered material.


                The  law mandates that one  requirement of


 the  state plan  is  that it removes  restrictions against


 a  community having  long term contracts to supply wastes


 to a  resource  recovery system.

                Section 4008 is another section that we


 will  cover.  This  section authorizes financial aid for


 public  agencies.  And its emphasis is on  implementation


 programs.  Again,  these cut across all of the Act, not


 just  resource  recovery but includes resource conservation


 services  and hazardous waste management.

                It  covers all of the things that can


 lead  up to construction but does not include any funds


 for  construction.


                Section 6002 is a section  discussing

federal procurement.   Requires EPA guidelines of

 recommended practices to alter federal procurement. And

 in two  years procuring agencies of the federal governmen

 must  procure products with the highest percentage of

 recovered materials  for purchases  individually over ten

 thousand  dollars  or  in total over  ten thousand dollars


 a  year.


                It also mandates that within two years


 users of  fossil fuel  -- that is, federal  boilers that
                                 ^
 use  fossil fuel must  use refused derived  fuel to the

-------
                                                            64
 1   highest amount practical..

 2                  It also states that contracting officers

 3   of the federal government must insure that vendors,
           •^
 4   people who sell to the federal government, must certify
                           $-
 5   the recovered content — recycled-material content of

 6   the products they sell to the federal government.  This

 7   can have leverage beyond that of applicable  to the

 8   federal government if states and local communities do

 9   follow similar practices as will the federal government

'0   in their procurement.

11                  Section 8002 calls for a series of eleven

12   special studies.  Seven of these studies are two-year

13   studies that we have listed here.  These, again, cover

14   a number of topics other than resource recovery.

'5                  Four of the studies in this section are

16   three-year studies.  We feel the most important of the

17   eleven studies is a study called --  included and the

18   title of it is A Resource Conservation Committee.  And

"   this is a cabinet level committee.   It is composed of

20   EPA, the Administrator of EPA-chairs an interagency

21   committee with heads of six other federal agencies.

22                  and this committee is  to conduct a  two-

23   year study with a separate authorization  of  two million

24   dollars and must submit reports  to Congress  every  six

25   months.  This is to oe a comprehensive study on ways  to

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                                                            65






 1   increase resource conservation and  recovery.   I would




 2   like to go  into  the  scope  of  this effort  in a  little




 3   more detail.




 4                  Basically the  comprehensive study will be




 5   looking at  the effect  of existing policies on  resource




 ,   conservation and recovery.  And  I included some examples




 1   of the existing  policies that might be  examined such  as




 8   the depletion allowances on certain virgin material uses




 9   capital gains treatment for certain materials.




 )0                  It will also examine new subsidies or




 1]   taxes or bounties to increase resource  conservation and




 12   recovery.   Some  of  the ideas  that have  been discussed




 13   and some that have  been specifically called out in the




 14   Act are a — one would be  a subsidy for each additional




 15   ton of material  that is recycled by industry.




 16                  Money to subsidize or help stimulate new




 17   investment  in equipment for recycled material.




 18                  And  one that is specifically called out




 19   in the Act  are charges for excise taxes on products,  on




 20   the category of  products to reflect solid waste management




 2i   costs to internalize those costs in the decisions that




 22   manufacturers of those products  make.




 23                  A third area that the study asks us to




 24   examine are product regulations, individual product-by-




25   product regulations  to encourage resource conservation

-------
                                                             66
 '   and recovery.



 2                  Finally there are a number of sections



 3   that discuss demonstrations and evaluations of resource



 4   recovery systems.  Our emphasis has been on evaluations



 "   of resource recovery systems.  This slide really



 6   highlights differences in this law compared to our old



 7   law if you are familiar with it.



 8                  It does allow for demonstrations, as did



    our old law.  And these demonstrations, as with our old



10   law, are for new and improved practices.  But this law



11   allows demonstrations to be granted to private as well



12   as public agencies.  The previous law only allowed grant|s



13   to public agencies.



 4                  And similar to our old Law, it allows a
15
    seventy-five per cent federal share for these demonstrations
16                  So I have run through — tried to get a



    quick view by running through section-by-section of the



18   Act of the things that pertain to resource conservation



19   and recovery.  I will be glad to answer any questions


90
    that you may have or take any comments that you would



    like to make for the record.



                   Are there any questions or comments?



23                  MR. STANFORD»  Geoffrey Stanford again.



              Lanny told us, just before you, there were


25
              only three routes that solid wastes would take

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                                                            67
 1             And I waa waiting for your contribution before



 2             asking Lanny.



 3                  Is the fourth one development of new



              ideas?  or is that somehow in one of your



              three routes?




 6                  MR. HICKMANi  It is  in all  of them.



 7                  MR. STANFORD!  It is in all of them.




 8                  MR. HICKMANi  That  is a tool to help


 o
              reach the goal of good hazardous waste manage-



10             raent and resource conservation practices.



11                  That is a tool to support that kind of  a



12             thrust.



13                  MR. STANFORD:  So we still  have full



              facility to do new things?




15                  MR. HICKMAN:  Yes.



"                  MR. STANFORDs  Good.  The second  thing



 7             I was going to ask:  Since under this Act


18
              federal monies can become available one way  or


19
              another for landfill practices and other such



              things, will they automatically  require



              environmental impact statements?



 2                  MR. HICKMANi   In the past  in our


23
              demonstration projects we have never done  a


24
              full environmental impact statement.   We have




              done an environmental impact assessment.   I  —

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                                                            68
 1             he did for the Minnesota — Bill,  have we




 2             done a full SIS for the Minnesota land disposa




 3                  MR. SANJOURs  We will have to.  we haven'




 4             done — the State of Minnesota will have to do




 5             it when they select the site.




 6                  MR. HICKMAN:  As far as grant monies flow




 7             — the way the grant structure is designed,




 8             if we make a research grant, if we make a




 9             demonstration grant directly we would have to




10             fit the same requirements as anyone else.




11                  We have not in the past done full EiS's




12             on demonstration projects.  We have done




13             environmental impact assessments, you know,




14             that's where you get to the pointi  either go




15             or no go through the Eis process.




16                  if you make an assessment,  it is almost




17             like a full environmental impact statement for




18           'us.  You get to  the point of whether there  is




19             or  is not an environmental  impact.  And  if it




20             is the negative  then you make a  negative




21             declaration.




22                  If you determine there  is environmental




23             impact  then you  proceed through  the full,




24             formal environmental impact  statement  process
25
                   We have never run  our  demonstration proje
:ts

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                                                              69






 1             which  are  supposed to provide new and improved




 2             techniques for  solid waste management and




 3             therefore  certainly are  environmentally




 4             acceptable in most instances in the past and




 5             we  have  never come up with the judgment that




 6             we  should  go EIS.




 7                  It  is a good  question, though.  It is one




 8             that we  have discussed in the office as to




 9             what it  means in the future for these funding




10             programs.




11                  This  is similar to  the permitting program




12             under  hazardous wastes,  whether EIS would have




13             to  be  considered  in this.




14                  Now in all our regulations — the major




15             regulations we  are now writing under the




16             hazardous  waste provisions and the land disposal




17             guidelines criteria, we  are writing full




18             environmental impact statements on those.




19             we  will  be requiring environmental impact




20             statements for  those.




21                  As  it relates to financial assistance




22             programs,  I don't  know yet.  That's a good




23             question and one we will have to discuss.




24                  what  do you  think?




25                  MR. STANFORDj  I wanted to ask you a

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                                                             70





 1             second tier for that question.  If the award




 2             or grant, whether it be for demonstrations




 3             as such or for operation, improved operation,




 4             is dependent upon an BIS having been accepted




 5             then many grant applicants simply have not got




 6             the funding to set in motion EIS preparation.




 7                  And so you may find that if ElS's are




 8             required, grants cannot be applied for.  And




 9             you may have to look at some kind o£ machinery




10             besides your funding system whereby reasonable




11             requests for grants can be funded to get the




12             EIS approved before they --




13                  MR. HICKMANt  We paid for  that.




14                  MR. CANFIELDx  It also depends on the




IS             type of grant and the type of project.  You




16             are talking of something where  you are




17             constructing.  There is a whole set of grants,




18             research grants for certain kinds of projects




19             even up  to certain steps in projects that  do




20             not require an EIS.




21                  MR. SANJOUR:  You have a grant to build




22             something, say.  You don't need an environmental




23             impact statement when you apply for the grant




24             you need  it when you build or when you start




25             your building, whenever  that  is.  In other

-------
                                                             71





  1             words,  even if you do require an environmental




  2             impact  statement it wouldn't be required until




  3             after you got the grant and the grant money




  4             would have to cover it.




  5                  MR.  HICKMANs  That's under our law.  You




  6             are  talking about --




  ^                  MR.  STANFORDi  That hasn't been my




  8             experience.  But I think. I have alerted you to




  9             the  point.




 10                  MR.  CANFIELDj  Thank you very much.  Any




 11             other comments or questions?




 '2                  MR.  fiBYs  My name is George Eby.  I am




 13             representing myself.  Under full scale




 14             demonstration facilities I haven't found any




 15             reference to intergovernmental relations




 16             between the federal government and the states




 17             if this is a state program.




 18                  I  am wondering if the federal government




 19             will help fund demonstration projects that




 2"             are  going to the states?




 21                  MR.  CANFIELDz  There are three suctions




 22             there that are very confusing and overlapping




 23             3004, 3005, and 3006.  And I believe one of




 24             those does require that it has to be consistent




25             with the  state plan and state planning process

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                                                             72






 1                  So there would be a  review and  coordination




 2             with the states on any demonstrations  with




 3             these funds.




 4                  MR. EBYs  Okay.  Thank  you very much.




 5                  MR. HICKMAHi  There  is  also  the 895  plans




 6             which have to be done on  any of our  projects




 7             factors into the state.




 8                  We have never made an award  for demonstra




 9             projects in the state that the state was  not




10             involved in considering that project.   Never,




11             in ten years of our existence.




12                  MR. CANFIELDi  if yOU have questions or




13             comments just feel free to line up behind the




14             speaker.




15                  MR. RISKERi  Fred Risker. About the  tire




16             shredder problem.  I was  really amazed when




              they said  five pex cent.   Is this a  typo-




18             graphical  error?




19                  MR. CANFIELD:  No.   No, we think  it  is
20
              a rebate on  the  sales  tax.   That's  about all
21             we can  figure  out  it  is.   To my knowledge ther|e




22             is no legislative  background:  Why they want




              a grant program  for tire  shredders of five




              per cent and what  they think will be accomplished



25
              by a grant  program of five per cent for

-------
                                                            73
 1             tire shredders.



 2                  MR. RlSKERt  Yeah, any kind of credit.



 3             Maybe it is what it says, you know.



 4                  MR. CrtNFIELDi  Any other comments?



 5                       (NO response)



 6                  MR. LOZANOi  Our next speaker  is Mr.



 7             Herb Crowe, Chief, Hazardous Waste Management



 8             Section, EPA, Region VI who will talk to us



 9             about state program development.



10                  MR. CROWE:  As in most good things, the



11   last -- the important things come up last, it seems.



12   Somewhat of a pun and somewhat to make sure everybody



'3   is awake out there.



14                  It is important — the development of a



15   state program is an important step.  It is the crux of



16   this whole thing.   If the Public Law Number  94-580 is



'7   going to get off the ground, achieve its  objective, it



18   is going to have to be a concentrated effort  by the



19   states and by EPA.



20                  And this is probably one of the first



21   occasions that we will be forced, if you  will excuse



22   the expression, to work as a team.



23                  There are certain  things that  we must do
24
25
The states, if they assume this, are going to be obliga
    -^


to achieve certain goals.  We in turn are going to have
                                                             ed

-------
                                                            74
 9




10




11




12




13




14




15




16




17




18




19




20




21




22




23




24




25
to be there if we are going to provide the necessary




funding and necessary guidance.




               This doesn't make any of us experts.  An




expert is someone who is fifty feet away from his own




wife.  And I qualify now/ I guess.




               But we have seen what will work and what




won't work.  We have also been able to identify those




things that need to be done first.




               If we look at this Act w« see that it is




a comprehensive act.  It covers everything.  And every-




thing tends to focus upon the j^tates.  And so the




development of a state program is indeed a most importan




step.




               The one thing I would like to point out




is that as we flash the  type of things that we are going




to be doing - I say "We."  EPA and  the sjbates - we are




going to look between those lines.  Look at where we are




going to be in 1983, say.  And then atart looking at




those steps backward that we need to identify.




               So between each of these  items here we




are  going to have to get some  idea  as  to what it means




that we are going to be  doing.  So  let's  take a look her




               The _state and local  program development




provisions, Subtitle C and D.  And  again, it  is a  focus




of Subtitle C and D.  If you are  looking  you will  see

-------
                                                            75






 '   Subtitle A in there.  Subtitle H,  all of those things




 2   coining to A focus.




 3                  RCRA  provides the  device for states to




 4   assume the dominant  role in assuring proper solid waste.




 5                  RCRA  provides the  -- again, the device




 6   for  local government to meet planning and implementation




 7   needs.  We are looking at target  dates.




 8                  And again -- and at this point is where




 '   we begin to start looking between those lines as to what




10   needs  to be done: The minimum requirements for acceptable




11   state  programs,  shared state and  local planning and




12   implementation,  dumps and sanitary landfills, regulatory




'3   authority.




14                  Now there is a real kicker.  When do you




15   start  into an enforcement mode.  There is so much




16   homework that you have to do first  before you get into




17   it.  Otherwise,  you  can kill the  program before it ever




18   gets airborne.




"                  And many states are going to have to




20   re-examine their state codes to look at the ability to




21   give the contractual  freedom to locals so that they can




    contract over a period of more than one year to achieve




    hazardous waste management, solid waste management,




    recycling, all of these various things are going to




    impact on that.

-------
                   Section 3001, the hazardous waste prograit


    is going to — looks like will be funded or is authorized,


    which is considerably different, twenty-five million


 4   dollars each year for FY '78 and '79.


                   And again, it is going to be based upon


    the severity of the problem in that state.  And the


    emphasis that are going to be placed upon the hazardous


 8   waste program is going to vary with each state, depending

 o
    again upon what the problems really are.
10


11


12


13


14


15


16


17


18


19


20


21


22


23


24


25
                                                             76
               Suction 40U8, the development and


implementation of a £tate plan.  The kinds of money we


are talking about -- and it is going to be awarded on a


population approach to states for state and local use.


               Section 4008, again, implementation of


solid waste management programs;  assistance for


feasibility studies, consultations, surveys, market


studies, economic investigations.


               Technology, assessments to meet land


disposal requirements and guidelines, there is no foruml


set up for those kinds of grants, at the present time.


               Section 4008(e), and again, where a _stat


has a problem area and in our five states I can  think


of probably fifteen or twenty where there is no way you


can do it.


               The fund approach that I heard mentioned

-------
                                                            77






 1   was to award everyone  in  the  little  town  an  air  mail




 2   package so  that  they could air mail  their garbage  out.




 3   I am not sure whether  that would be  funded or  not under




 4   EPA.




 5                  And again, we  are targeting in  on the




 6   special area and  the rural areas.  And  I  think thejjtate[s




 7   and we, here, often hear  of a dump site occurring  over




 8   a period of a month, say.  Somebody  doesn't  want to go




 9   all the way into  town  or  somebody drives  down  the  road




10   a bit, rolls the  window down, throws it out  the  window.




11   The minute  that  first  garbage bag hits  the ground  then




12   there is about two thousand follow it in  the next  split




13   second.




                   So we have got to approach that type of




15   thing.  What we  are inferring here,  again, is  reading




    into the Act, we  are looking  at designing a  system and




    doing it on a regional basis, whatever  a  region  happens




18   to be.  Whatever  is economically feasible, whatever the




    waste stream talks to, those  are the kinds of  things




20   that are going to help us to  define  what  a region  really




    is.  There will  be some standard guidelines  put  forth




22   that will help us to at least get some  criteria  on what




23   to look for.




24                  So that any of these  special  areas  that




25   we are going to  be addressing again  is  going to  be done

-------
                                                           78





    on a cooperative basis,  a joint effort of state and fed.




                   And assistance to the rural areas, we




    are going to be looking at restriction on open dumps.




    You don't restrict open dumps until you have got a




    system developed in that area to make sure that people




 6   have a system to pick up their waste, transport it, and




 7   dispose of it in an environmentally acceptable fashion.




                   We are going to be looking at the Clean




    Air Act.  We are going to be looking at the water act.




10   we are going to be looking at all of these things.  And




11   all of these things are going to be impacting upon the




12   rural areas.



13                  This is the kind of criteria that we are




    going to be looking at in awarding some of these grants



15   to the rural areas.  In effect it is saying that no



    regional system is available.



                   How can you assist them to do something




18   and yet get their waste management in an environmentally




19   acceptable fashion.  No existing plan system presently




20   available to states on a rural population approach.




2'   Seventy-five per cent of the cost.  And we cannot buy




22   land, again.



23                  And again, the thing that we must recognise




24   here is the fact that this is a planning grant basically.




25                  That's about it.  So again, what  I am

-------
                                                            79
 1   saying is that probably this is where the whole Act comes




 2   to a sharp focus.  Here is where we are going to have




 3   to start looking at the steps we are going to have to




 4   take in the next six months and begin to really get



 5   moving on it.




 6                  Anybody have any questions?



 7                  MR. DRlNKWATERj  Al Drinkwater, Arkansas




 8             Pollution Control.  In reading through the Act,




 9             especially Section 4002, I haven't been able




'0             to ascertain any part here that is saying the



11             guidelines for the identification of the




12             region will take into consideration local




'3             political boundaries as they are currently




14             drawn.



'5                  This is something that I would like to




"             make a suggestion here is that these guidelinejs



17             for the  identification of a region take  this



18             into consideration when they are promulgated



19             because  of course if you have to create anothejr



20             level  of government completely outside every



21             local  boundary then this is going to create




22             more chaos.




23                  And as much as possible, if we can  keep
24
              those regional boundaries  co-terminus  with
25             local political boundaries  we  are  going to be

-------
 1             that much better off.

 2                  MR. CROWEi Anybody else like to make

 3             a comment?

 4                  MR. CARTER:  Jim Carter, Oklahoma City.

 5             I notice a fair amount of emphasis  in  the Act

 6             of the 208 planning agencies are at least to

 7             be considered.

 8                  How strict is that consideration?   Is

 9             the 208 planning agency the de  facto agency

10             under this Act?

11                  MR. CROWE: No, I don't think so.  This is

12             going to have  to be something that  is  going

13             to have to be  worked out for that area.

14                  MR. CARTER:  State decisions or state

15             decisions in conjunction with EPA?

16                  MR. CROWE: Right.  It will be  the _state

17             — I am trying to recall how this Act  reads.

18             I think it will be up to the ^tates.

19                  MR. CARTER:  So the consideration

20             mentioned in 4005 falls beneath the state

21             designation of the planning agency.

22                  MR. CROWE: Right.

23                  MR. CARTER:  So basically  it  is the

24             jjtate government's decision?
              f'
25                  MR. CROWE:  Right.  Anybody  else?
                                                              80

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 1                  MR.  BUTTON:  Bill Button with Diamond-


 2             Shamrock.   Have  you had any discussions with


 3             the  Texas Water  Quality Board? and how does


 4             their  plan track  with what the requirement of


 5             the  federal act  is?


 6                  MR.  CROWE:   The Texas Water Quality Board


 7             would  come under Subtitle C.  And the kind of


 8             things  that they are doing is going to fall


 9             in line very well with what we ultimately have


10                  In fact,  we  have been asking for the


11             Texas  Water Quality Board, some of them, to


12             appear  on our task force that is doing some of


13             the  work  on it.


14                  MR.  CARTER:   Do you have at this time


IS             any  major differences?

                        CgOujj?'.
16                  MR.  CARTERi   The Texas Water Quality Boarjd


17             rules  and regs have a couple of areas that I


18             suspect that the  Texas government will probabl


19             shape  up,  sharpen up.


20                  MR.  CARTERi   What areas?


21                  MR.  CROWE:   One of the main areas I


22             think  is  probably the existing reg to the


23             effect  that any  industry can maintain its on


24             site up to within fifty miles and it does not


25             require a permit.
                                                              81

-------
 1                  Under the — under our — what is proposed




 2             and being talked about now and again I would




 3             say that our rules and regs are not out yet.




 4             But we are going to be looking at the fact




 5             that all solid waste disposal sites will have




 $             to apply for and receive a permit.




 7                  Anybody else?




 8                  MR. STANWICK: Is this open for discussion




 9             yet?




10                  MR. CROWEt  I suppose so.




11                  MR. STANWICKs My name is Kerry Stanwick




12             and I have a question for Mr. Sanjour, mostly.




13                  If the Act is dealing mostly with




14             hazardous waste management, why has tha EPA




15             selected to decrease the regulations for




16             transporters of this hazardous waste?




17                  MR. CROWEj  Would you run that by again?




 18                  MR. STANWICK:  Okay.  You are not




 19             requiring a permit for transporters yet you




20             require one for the treatment and disposal of




21             it.




22                  MR. CROWE:  That is part of the Act,  sir




23                  MR. STANWICK:  Why?   la  it not considere




24             a part  of the disposal?




25                  MR. CROWE:  Why did Congress write  it
                                                             82

-------
                                                            83
               that way?



 2                 MR. STANWICKl   Yes.



 3                 MR. CROWE:   Well,  I  guess the best person



 4             to ask  that  would be a  Congressman.



 5                 I  think what happened is  that during the



               hearings —  I know for  example why generators



 7             are not included.   Probably transporters are



 8             not included in  the permits for the same



 9             reason.



 10                 I  suspect the  generators  were not includejd



               because  there was some  testimony on the part



 12             of generators of hazardous wastes that a



 13             permitting requirement  would force — would be



 14             used to force generators  to change their



 15             processes which  means the processes by which



 16             they generate their wastes.



 17                 And it  was  not the intent of Congress or



 18             of the  committee that wrote the Act to get



 "             in there and influence  how companies went aboujt



 20             how they manufactured their goods.  Rather,
21
               only  to  influence  what they did with their
22             wastes.



                   So as  the  result they changed -- they had


24
              it  to  require a permit for generators and they


25
              took it out because  of that reason.   And in

-------
                                                            84
 1             fact as I recall EPA agreed with that position




 2                  I suspect — I am not sure what happened




 3             to transporters but X suspect it is pretty




 4             much the same sort of thing.




 5                  MR. STANWICKs  So they considered it




 6             affected the method they transported it?




 7                  MR. CROWE:  Yeah, perhaps.  I am not




 8             familiar with the legislative history of that




 9             particular aspect.  I am going just by analogy




10             on what happened.




11                  Why do you raise the point?




12                  MR. STANWICK: Well, it seems to be kind




13             of a slacking off of the whole intent of the




14             law to protect the health and welfare of the




15             public.




16                  MR. CROWE:  No, I don't think so.




17                  MR. STAHWICK:  If you are transporting




18             hazardous material, it is as hazardous in




19             transportation as it is in disposal.




20                  MR. CROWEi  Transporters are subject  to




21             certain standards.




22                  MR. HICKMAN:  The Department of Transpor-




23             tation will take care of that.




24                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  The manifest




25             system  under  the DOT requirement —  they may

-------
                                                             85
              have thought transporters were adequately




              covered under that.




                   MR.  CROWE:   There are standards that




              transporters have to meet.  If they don't meet




s             those standards  they are in violation of the




,             law regardless of this Act.




7                  MR.  STANWICK:  Okay.  That is the reason




8             I brought it up.  Because of the Railroad




9             Commission giving permits to transporters here




10             And it sounds like if they can regulate who




              transports things their regulations may not be




              based upon what is needed for hazardous




,3             materials.




                   MR.  CROWE:   Well, you know the word




15             "permit"  has a bad taste in people's mouth.




              It means  the government is giving you permissj




17             to do business.   And many people resent that




13             they need permission from the government to




              do business.




20                  Now I personally think that it is largely




2i             a semantic discussion because if the governmen




22             writes standards and you can be put in jail




23             if you don't follow the standards, what's  the




24             difference if you have a permit or not?




25                  MR.  STANWICK:  Then why have a permit for

-------
                                                             86





 1              treatment?




 2                  MR. CROWEs Why,  indeed?




 3                  MR. LOZANO:  There are  three  people  who




               have indicated  that  they  would  like  to make




 5              a  statement and would like  to do  that at this




 6              time before we  get into open discussion.




 7                  First of all, in the order that they were




 8              received, Mr. Mike K. Kirkman,  Dai-North.




 9                  MR. KIRKMANi  We discussed that on  the




 10              transportation.




 11                  MR. LOZANO:  Okay.   Mr. Howard  Saxion,




 12              Lone Star Chapter, Sierra Club.




                   MR. SAXION:  I have a copy  of the  statemenjt




     for  the  Reporter.  My name  is  Howard Saxion.   X  serve as




 15    chairman of  the  Lone Star Chapter  of the  Sierra  Club,




 '6    which  chapter  encompasses the  State of  Texas.




                   I wish to  thank the  Environmental




     Protection Agency  for the opportunity to  comment on the




 '9    provisions of  Public Law  94-580.




 20                  Although  the regulations  on solid waste




 21    and  hazardous  materials  have not been promulgated we




 22    are  encouraged that  the  EPA will  solicit  input from the




 23    public as evidenced  by  this hearing.




 24                  My  comments  are rather brief and general




25    We are pleased with  this  legislation and  its provisions

-------
     The  RCRA will only meet its goals and objectives if it



     is  properly implemented and enforced.  I hope that EPA




     will make a strong commitment to achieving the goals and



     objectives of the Act.   After this discussion I am sure




     they have made this commitment.




                    We feel  that the  public has been exposed




     to  hazardous wastes that have been improperly disposed




     of  for too long.   This  Act, if properly implemented,




     will go a long way toward alleviating this situation.
 10




 11




 12




 13




 14




 15




 16




 17




 18




 19




 20




 21




 22




 23




 24




25
                                                            87
               Strong regulations should be promulgated




to insure the protection of public health as well as  the




environment in which we live.




               We are very concerned about the  surface




transportation of hazardous waste materials through




populated areas.  This Act, if properly  implemented,




will go a long way toward alleviating this situation.




Strict regulation of such movement of hazardous materials




through such regions should be implemented quickly so as




to minimize this situation.




               I think the public as a whole is rather




unaware of what is going through the community and some




of these materials are indeed very dangerous and




hazardous.




               The recovery of solid waste materials




should be a priority.  We must begin the task of

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                                                             88




 1
    recovering and recycling waste materials.  We must do th



 2   not only because we are running out of areas to dispose



 3   of society's waste but perhaps more importantly because



 4   of dwindling natural resources and energy and the



    tremendous impacts that are being placed upon the land



    for extraction and exploitation of natural resources.



                   Through recovery and recycling of waste



 8   materials we can lessen this impact.



 9                  The EPA, through coordination and



10   cooperation with other federal agencies and state



11   governments should strive to eliminate barriers that



12   hinders the recovery and recycling of waste materials.



                   Interstate commerce of scrap metals and



    other waste materials that could be recycled are not
15
    because of regulations that favor  the  transportation  of
    new or raw materials.



17                  The fact sheet  is a  thorough delineation



    of the objectives and goals  of  the  Act.   The  task  of



19   the Office of Solid Waste will  be great.



20                  We will closely  monitor  the promulgation




    of the regulations and the  implementation of  the Act.


22
    We look  forward  to the opportunity  to give our  views



    on the regulations that will be promulgated  in  the futui



    and to cooperate with EPA.   Thank you.



25                  MR. SANJOURj  May I  comment on that?
                                                            is

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                                                             89
 1                   MR.  LOZAHOl   Yea.



 2                   MR.  SANJGURi   I have never beard it

 3
               suggested before  that the standards for


               transporting hazardous  wastes should include



               standards on routing.  I have never heard that



 6              before.   And I don't think anybody in EPA


               has  even  been considering it.  And while you

 P
               put  it into the transcript and it ia a part

 9
               of the public record, X suggest that if you


               really mean that  you send a letter.  It is a


 11              new  idea.


 12                   MR.  LOZANOj   Mrs.  Howard S. Kittel, Fort



               Worth, president,  National Council of State


 14
               3arden Clubs.


 15                   MRS. KlTTSLt   we would like to thank you


     vary/much for the opportunity for speaking and for the


     opportunity of backing you  up on anything you can do

 18
     to help  recycle all of our  wastes.

 19
                    Because until we do return everything

 20
     to the bio from which it cane we  are merely putting our

 21
     finger in the  hole  in the dike.



                    And  we feel  that this is a very progressive

 23
     thing and if the government gets  behind it and we are

 24
     able to  make it financially feasible we will be able

25
     to solve the solid  waste problem  without contaminating

-------
                                                              90
 1   our whole country and without contaminating our  --



 2   without ruining our health.



 3                  We just wish to thank you.  We  think  the



 4   things that have come out of here -- you answered a  grea



 5   many questions that I was going to ask without having



 6   to ask them.



 7                  Thank you very much for allowing  us to



 8   come.  And thank you for your forward looking  at things.



 '   We think you need to go further than you are going now.



10                  Thank you



11                  MR. LOZANOi  Thank you very much, Mrs.



12             Kittel.  Those are the kind of statements  that



13             keeps a guy like me going.



'*                  Are there any more comments that  anyone
15
17
              would like to make at  this  time?   questions
16             of the panel?
                   Because I would like  to  proceed  on into
18             open discussion of any  kind  before we  adjourn.



19                  Okay.  If not,  then,  I  would like to



20             thank everyone who participated  here  this



21             evening.  This is an  experiment  for  us here



22             in Region VI  of EPA  because  we never  have held



              a night hearing.  And from the looks  of it,



              it was very successful.   There was a  good


25
              turn out, a lot of good comments and  questions

-------
                                                              91



 1
               made.  I would like to  particularly thank the

 2
               people who have come down  from Washington to


               give us an overview of  the Act and what is

 4
               going on these days in  Recra.   We appreciate

 5
               it very much.

 6
                    The meeting  is adjourned.

 7
                          (Whereupon,  the  proceedings were

 8
                          terminated.)

 9
10


11


12


13


14


15


16


17


18


19


20


21


22


23


24


25

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                                                              92
 1                   CERTIFICATE

 2

 3             This is to certify that  I, Joy Jackson,

    reported in shorthand the proceedings  had  at  the  time

    and place set forth in the caption hereof,  and  that the

    above and foregoing 91 pages contain a full,  true  and

 7   correct transcript of said proceedings.

 8

 9

10
                          Court/
                              6-' v
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

-------
 1                ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

 2                           REGION VI

 3

 4                  PUBLIC DISCUSSION SESSIONS
                             on the
 5            RESOURCE  CONSERVATION AND RECOVERY ACT

 6
     PANEL MEMBERSi
 7
             MR.  RAY LOZANO
 8            Director,  Air and Hazardous Materials Division
             Region VI,  Dallas, Texas
 9
             MR.  J. PAUL CORONA
10            Assistant to Regional Administrator
             Congressional and Intergovernmental Relations
11            Region VI,  Dallas, Texas

12            DR.  NORMAN DYER
             Chief, Pesticides and Hazardous Materials Brand
13            Region VI,  Dallas, Texas

14            MR.  H. LANIER HICKMAN
             Director,  Management and Information Staff
15            Office of  Solid Waste, Washington, D. C.

16            MR.  WILLIAM SANJOUR
             Chief, Assessment and Technology Branch
\7            Hazardous  Waste Division, Office of Solid Waste
             Washington,  D. C.
18
             MR.  TOM CANFIELD
19            Chief, Waste Production Branch
             Office of  Solid Waste, Washington, D. C.
20
             MR.  HERBERT CROWE
21            Chief, Hazardous Waste Management Section
             Region VI,  Dallas, Texas
22
     EPA Conference Room
23    29th Floor  First  International Building
     Dallas, Texas
24    March 9, 1977
25
     REPORTER!  JOY JACKSON
                4308  Purdue
                75225  214-368-2506

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 1                          INDEX

 2                                           Page
     MR.  RAY LOZANO,  Presiding              3
 3            Welcome

 4    MR.  J.  PAUL CORONA
             Introduction                    3
 5
     DR.  NORMAN DYER
 6            Overview                        8

 7    MR.  H.  LANIER HICKMAN
             Public Participation           10
 8
     MR.  WILLIAM SANJOUR
 9            Hazardous Waste                39

10    MR.  H.  LANIER HICKMAN
             Land Disposal                  55
11
     MR.  TOM CANFIELD
12            Resource Conservation
             and Recovery                   76
13
     MR.  HERBERT CROWE
14            State Programs                 93

IS    MR.  MARK HANDELMAN
             Texas State Chemical
'6            Council                       107

17    MRS. PEARL L. WINCONR
             League of Women Voters        115
18
     MR.  JAMES A. BANNEROT
1'            Conservation Services         121

20    MR.  CHARLES L. ROBERTSON
             Arkansas Federation  of
21            Air and Water Users           124

22    MR.  C.  L. JORDAN
             NCTCOQ                        126
23

24                             _  _  _

25

-------
 2                  MR. LOZANO:   Good morning.  My name  is




 3           Ray Jjo^ano.   I urn Director o£ the Air and




             Hazardous Materials  Division here in the




 5           Regional office  in Dallas and am here to provide




 6           the welcome  for  this meeting.  Unfortunately




 7           Mr. White could  not  be  with as.  The Regional




 8           .idminis trd toi was called away to Washington




 9           yesterdjy.




 10                  But here  to welcome you is his assistant




 11           ior Congressional and intergovernmental relatiois




 12           is Mr. J. Paul Corona.




 13                  MR. CORONA:   Thank you, Kay.  I am




             pleased  to welcome all  of you to this public




 15           meeting  on the Resource Conservation and




 '6           Recovery ^ct  of  1976.




 17                  This -*ct  is the  culmination of a three-




             year legislative effort begun in the 93rd




 19           Congress with the establishment of a panel  on




 20           material policy.




                    The forerunner of this bill was first




 22           drafted  and  introduced  in 1974 and extensive




 23           hearings were held that year.




                    The committee, the Senate Committee  on




25            Public Works, held preliminary meetings to  mark

-------
 1            up the legislation  in  late  1974.




 2                   On July 21st, 1975,  Senators  Randolph




 3            and Hart introduced Senate  Bill  2150,  <± bill




 4            which incorporated  the Committee's  earlier




 5            tentative decisions and  refinements  recommended




 d            from many interested parties.




 7                   This bill was reported  out of the Senate




 8            Committee on May 13, 1976,  and approved by the




 9            fall Senate on June 30th,  1976,  ay  a vote of




10            88 to 3.




11                   The final version of the  bill was




12            prepared during the last week  of  the second




13            session and cleared the  Congress  on September




14            the 30th, becoming  Public Law  94-580 on




15            Octooer 22nd.




16                   The oill in  its final form was  the result




17            of a merger of the  Senate bill and  the one




18            reported oy the House  Committee  on  Interstate




19            and Foreign Commerce,  a  bill that was itself




20            drafted as a refinement  to  the Senate  Bill 2150




21                   We in Region VI are  especially aware of




22            the many solid waste management  problems that




23            confront each of us.   Each   of us has  observed



24            examples 
-------
 '                   Improper management of industrial wastes



 2            in  open burning dumps and the dumping of



 3            industrial  wastes in our streams and lakes are



 4            but a  few of the episodes that have resulted



             in  passage  of the act.



                    Many of you will have specific issues



             to  address  at this meeting &ut equally



             important this meeting presents an opportunity



 '            to  you to acquire an overview of what is



10            expected of each of us.



                    You as citizens will oe able to develop



12            an  understanding of the major issues in  the Act



             And see the necessity for estaolishing priorities



             to  address these issue.



                    We in turn will see the need for



             determining the emphasis to be assigned  to each



17            priority and its impact on the state and local


10
             governments.



"                   This meeting will offer a two-way street



20            in  which we will have a free exchange of



21            information and ideas.



2                   These meetings are essential in the



23            development of  the federal solid waste management



24            program.  Public participation, which is

nf
             mandated in the act,  remains a key factor  in

-------
 '           establishing a strong federal-state partnership




 2           necessary for the protection of the land.




 3                  I am sure this meeting will be  informative




             and profitable for each of us.  Thank  you.




 5                  MR. LOZANO:  As to the format of  the




 6           meeting this morning we are -- I am sure  every-




 7           one has a program.  But what we intend to do  is




             to follow as closely as we can the presentations




             as they are listed.




                    But there will be orief periods between




11            presentations for questions, comments,  et cetera




'2                  There are approximately six or  seven




'3            people who have indicated they would like to




             make a statement.  And will do so at the  end




             of all of the presentations this morning.




                    I hope we can get through the schedule




17           before 12:00 o'clock such thjt we can  break  at




             the noon hour.




                    However, I would  lika  to continue




2"           through until we hear everyone even  if that




21            means going perhaps until 12:30 or so.




22                   Let me introduce  -- and by the  way, the




23            whole meeting is being transcribed.  We have a




             Court Reporter  up  front  here  who  is  taking the




25            statements word for word.   JCf  there  are questioh

-------
 1            or  comments,  please use the microphone  in  the




 2            center  of  the room, state your name and  your




 3            affiliation so that,  that may oe included  in




 4            the  record.




 5                   The  transcript will oe available, as  I




 6            understand  it, from the Office of Solid  Waste




 7            in  Washington in approximately two months.




 8                   Let  me introduce the members of  the




 9            head table  here.  Over to my tar right Mr. Bill




10            Sanjour from the office of Solid Waste  in




11            Washington.




12                   Mr.  Tom Canfield from office of Solid




13            Waste  in Washington.




14                   Mr.  Hero Crowe from our Regional  Office




15            here in Dallas .




16                   Dr.  Norman 0yer from our Regional Office




17            here in Dallas.




'8                   And  Mr. Lanny Hickman, over on my left,




19            from the Office of Solid Waste in Washington.




20                   First, let's get an overview of  the




21            Resource Conservation and Recovery Act  from  --




22            just the general provisions of it so you can




23            see  what we are talking anout this morning from




2*            Dr.  Noritian  .Dyer who is our Chief of the  Pesticides




25            and  Hazardous Materials Branch here in  Region VI

-------
 1                  DR. DYER:   Good  morning.   I will briefly




 2    go through the major  provisions  of the  Resource




 3    Conservation and Recovery Act  after which several




     speakers will go into greater  aeatxl into each of those




 5    major provisions




 6                  Congress  intended  that this Act would




 7    address those problems  created by the ever increasing




 8    amounts of waste material be iny  generated by our




     growing national economy  and population as well as to




'0    address those problems  created by the upen dumping of




'1    waste material which  pollutes  the environment needlessly




12    as well as the increasing Amount of pollution resulting




'3    from the implementation of other Acts such as the




     Clean Air Act, the  water  act,  and other federal and




15    state acts .




                   All  of  these efforts luve resulted in




17    increasing the amount or  solid and hazardous wastes




     that we must  deal  with.  Recognizing these facts and




"    the need for  a national effort to deal with these




20    problems Congress  passed  this  act, the Resource




     Conservation  and  Recovery Act.




                    'fne  major oojectives of the Act, first,




     is  to  promote  the  protection of health and the




     environment  as well as to conserve the valuable




     resources  and our  energy resources.

-------
 ]                   Recognizing the problems that we are




 2    experiencing  with the shortage of petroleum products




 3    and  our  dependence on foreign sources for these energy




 4    products,  energy  sources, Congress attempted to




 5    address    these  through the passage of this Act.




 £                   These objectives are to be accomplished




 7    through  providing technical and financial assistance




 8    to state and  local governments, through providing




 9    opportunities for development of new manpower  in the




15    area  of  resource,  conservation and recovery, through




11    the  prohibition  of open dumping requiring a conversion




12    or the closing of open dumps, as well as the regulatiors




J3    that  apply particularly to the hazardous wastes.




14                   AS  in most other acts there are




]5    provisions for research and development, for




16    demonstration grants t»s well as enhancing the




17    cooperative effort between state, local, and federal




18    governments as well as private enterprise.




19                   This Act hopefully will close the gap




20    in our environmental  legislation and will address the




21    handling of hazardous jncJ solid wastes from cradle to




22    grave.




23                   AS  I inaicated earlier the speakers that




24    follow will go into greater detail on each of  the major




25    provisions of the Act.  Thank you.

-------
                                                             10
 1                   MR. LOZANOi  Next,  to talk to us about


 2            training, puolic information,  and public


 3            participation is Mr. H. Lanier Hickman, Directoi


 4            Management and Information  Staff, Office of


 5            Solid Waste in n'asnington .


 5                   HA. HICKMAN:  Good morning.  Can you all


 7     see  the slides in the back okay?   are they legible in


 8     the  back?

                                                        1RC.T5.fi
 9                   I think we should   understand that HoerJ


10    -(phonotic)-r- the new amendments to  the Federal Solid


11     Waste  Disposal act, is somewhat different from what


12     other  pieces of environmental legislation that EPA

                                          T?CR.ft
13     administers in that the purpose of -tie-era is not to


14     establish federal government  regulatory enforcement


15     dominance over solid waste management.


16                   "he concept behind  the  law is to build


17     a  partnership between the ^ideral, state,  and local


18     governments to provide some sort  of assistance, both


19     financial and technical to ^tate  and local governments


20     for  them to meet the basic objectives of the law which


21     is protection of pablic health, environment quality,


22     and  recovery of materials out of  our waste stream.


23                   The mechanism 'oy which this is supposed


24     to be  achieved is really sort of  a three-cornered


25     approach in that those wastes that are  the most

-------
                                                               11





 j     hazardous and that represent significant  public  health




 2     and  environmental threats must be regulated  and




 3     controlled in a more precise manner  than  other waste




 4     materials.  And the law sets up a structure  to do  that




 5     designed to try to bring state governments  into  a  very




 6     strong regulatory role from crddle to  grave  in hazardoi^




 7     waste.




 8                   Now in the absence of  such  state




 9     involvement, the federal government  must  assume  certaii




 10     responsibilities for hazardous waste management.




 11                   The second of the three-cornered approacl




 12     that the law is taking is to eliminate  improper  land




 13     disposal practices for all wastes.   We  will  talk about




 14     that in some detail here later on.   And how the  changilig




 15     of definitions of portions of the law  bring  this about




 16                   Here again, though, the  purpose behind




 17     this part is for the federal government to  provide the




 18     sort of assistance necessary for the state  government




 19     to assume a role most of them already  have  in assuring




 20     proper land disposal practices.




 21                   But unlike hazardous wastes there  is no




 22     mechanism by which the federal government can become




 23     involved directly in the regulation  of improper  land




 24     disposal practices.




25                   But oecause of the criteria that will be

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                                                              12
 1     established  for land disposal practices, sites that do


 2     not meet the criteria are in violation of federal law


 3     and subject  to suit by anyone who files a petition.


 4                   The third point of it is — the third


 5     corner  of the triangle approach is the conservation


 5     provisions.   And the law says basically either regulate


 7     it as a hazardous waste, put it in a qualified and


 8     acceptable land disposal site, or recovery mechanism.


 9     There  is nothing in between.  That is the long range


10     objective for the conservation portion of it and we


11     will hear about that in detail.


12                   I think if you understand that in the


13     context of what we are trying to say this is a -- all

              "RCRPi
14     right.   JW-erra is one of the new generations of federal


15     laws that recognizes that whatever happens as a result


16     of a piece of federal legislation basical'ly impacts  on


17     the public,  whatever that public is represents the


18     segments out here in the country that are affected by


19     any piece of legislation that comes out of Washington.


20                   So there are very strong  provisions buiH


21     into  the law to require EPA and other agencies that


22     share  some of the responsibilities of Recra to get  the


23     public  involved in the  total  process of  planning and


24     implementing the law.


25                   Intensive provisions for  participation b

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                                                              13






      the  public are to promote an understanding of  the




 2    public  exactly what the problems are and what  the  impact




 3   of  those problems are on health ana environment and  on




      OUJL  natural resources,  to yet them involved in helping




 5    make  the decisions, not at the federal level but at




 6    the  state and local levels, to provide a mechanism




 7    based on the theory thut if people understand  the  problem




 8    they  are going to be far more receptive to cooperating.
 9    supporting decisions that will have to oe made  to corre
 10    those  problems.




 11                  To provide a mechanism for the public




 12    to  cooperate  and help sj:a te government because  this




 13    law is designed  for a strong state involvement  now,




      a strong  state involvement and higher level of  investment




 15    than they are presently making in solid waste management




      practices.




 17                  Current investment by jstate government




 18    is  probably around twenty-five million dollars  a year




      total  throughout the country in which three million




20    dollars is federal money,




2'                  and we start to see some of the




22    proposed,  authorized,levels that can be used to




23    support jitate and local government to meet the




24    requirements  of  the law.  And we see that Congress




      fully  intends or perceives that there has to be a
ct

-------
                                                             14
 1    great deal  of  increase  in  investment.   And the public




 2    understanding  the  problems  and the approach that is




 3    necessary  to solve the  problems will be far more




 4    supportive  of  the  budgetary changes that will have to




 5    be  made.




 6                   It  provides  a mechanism so that the




 7    federal  government,  the state government, local




 8    government, can describe and develop a data base, what




 9    the significance  of  that data base is, and the problem:




'0    and the  impact, and  the solutions that have to be




11    dealt with.




                    Developing that data base is far more




13    than describing  this data base.  We will be in a much




I4    better  position  to develop the sort of  informed  suppor




15    that we  will need.




                    And the law also requires EPA to develop




     the mechanism  for rapid dissemination of  information




18    when we  get it.   rtt the federal government level we do




     have an  unique opportunity bacause we do  cross state




     lines and we do  have a window  to all  facets of any
21
25
      particular problem to collect a great deal  of  informat
22                   GUJ: office has always been actively




23     involved in information development and dissemination



24
since the Beginning of  the  office  in  early 1966 and




we have a very strong program  in publishing and probably
                                                             .on.

-------
                                                              15
     have published over the last  ten  or  eleven  years  some




     eight or nine hundred publications.   Not  all  of them by




     us but by a variety of people around the  country  who




     work in the field.  And we have made this available




     at basically a low cost.




                   And the law als<~ requires us  to establish




     a liorary from which the public,  all segments,  technica




     and general public, can get information on  solid  waste




     management.  We have such a library  now.  And it  is




 10   tied in on an inter1ibrary loan throughout  the  country




 11   so that you can go  to almost  any  library  that is  a part




 12   o£ this national network and  tap  in  and get a copy of




 13   some publication or some document that you  want.




 14                 We also have a  computerized system  that




 IS   you can tap in and abstracts  on a particular  subject




 16   area in solid waste management.




 17                 This law requires us  to expand  that




 18   capability and service to best that  we can.




 19                 Now there are a variety of  publics  out




20   here that we want to communicate  with to  develop  this




21    partnership that w« have to develop  in order  to




22    implement the law.




23                  we have the consumer,  environmental,




     and neighborhood groups.  These are  the groups  that




     prooably -- usually represent the public  more than any

-------
                                                             16
    other  types  of  organizations  that we have.  And this is




    the  group  that  is  the  most difficult to reach because




    they are not organized and don't have the sort of




    funding or financial  cdpaoilities to interact with the




    federal government and the j^tate government that the




    other  groups here  do  such as  the trade, manufacturing,




    and  labor  representatives.




                  These organizations are funded particular




    well.  Most  of  them have  a window in Washington with




10   some national organization and are well represented.




11                 When you come out to the field and hold




12   meetings such as  this  they have the opportunity to come




13   during the day  while  the  citizen who is working on the




14   job  or the housewife  who  is running a taxi service for




15   their  kids has  a  more  difficult time to get into this




    sort of meeting.




17                 That is  why in this series of meetings




18   we are holding  throughout the country we specifically




19   hold one  in  the evening also.  We had one here last




20   night. And  although  there were laoor,industry




21   representatives,  one  man  stood up last night and said:




22   I'm  so and so and I am representing myself.




23                 And so  obviously at least in one instance




24   here we know that what we are trying to do to get to




25   th>s  real  public,  the  lay  public, at least we achieve

-------
                                                              17





 1    that now and  then.




 2                  And  then we  have the public health,




 3    scientific, ana  professional  groups that naturally are




     involved in solid  waste management, the engineering anc




 5    other  scientific and industrial organizations.  And we




 6    have a mechanism for communicating with them.




 7                  The  last, governmental organizations.




 8    And Uticxa  is  designed to involve governmental people




 9    in the federal government  particularly because there




10    are some provisions  in the law, the guideline provisiors




11    and some of the  resource conservations provisions that




'2    once E5?A develops  certain  documents the f_ederal




13    government must  comply with those.  This is a carryovei




14    from the previous  act, the 1970 solid waste disposal




15    act which  also requires us to write guidelines.  And




16    those  guidelines in  fact became mandatory regulations




'7    and standards — standards for the ^federal government




18    that continues into  this new law.




19                  Now  there are some other mechanisms




20    that are provided  within the law to allow the public




21    to ping  in on bureaucracy  to try to make change, try




22    to influence  what  is going on.




23                  One  course is a petition for change of




24    regulations that are being proposed that are promulgat




     by the Agency.   We have to provide a mechanism by whicl

-------
                                                             18
 1    a citizen or organization  or  group  of people can




 2    petition the Administrator of EPA  to either write a




 3    regulation or d guideline  that  we  have not written yet




     or to make changes  in  those  that are already in exister




 5                  The Administrator must hold hearings and




 6    make judgements and  show cause  of  why he will or will




 7    not respond to that  petition.




 8                  The law  requires  for  us to provide a




 9    mechanism for the public to  cooperate with us in




10    planning and development and implementation of the law.




11    And this is only one of  the  first  steps that we will




12    be doing over the time  to  try talk about, those things




'3    that we perceive should  be done and how the people




     think that — what  they  think about that.  And alao




     what do they think  we  ought  to do  that we, are not doinc




     now or what we should  stop that we are doing now.




                   nnd we will  go into  a series of meetings




     this coming summer  around  the country where we will




     discuss in a preliminary way our  plans for fiscal year




20     '79.  We are in  '77 now.   We are  going to be discussinc




21     '78 plans  in the spring.   And we  will oe here  in  the




22    summer again to  —  it  is sort of  like going on  the old




23    Chdtauqua  circuit.   But it is very useful, a. very




24    valuable way to  get feedback on what we are doing.




25                   It requires  us to hold --  to have  you

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                                                              19
 1     involved,  the  public  involved,  in the  writing of



 2     regulations and  guidelines.



 3                   vie have  to  publish guidelines on how the



      public  can participate with  us.   How we  can wire in?



 5     what mechanisms  are available;   where  the money comes



 6     in  to do  that.   There  is  really no way now that we can



      pay the public to come sit with us and participate in



 8     our planning and implementation of the law.



 '                   The citizens who  come tu meetings like



10     this and  the citizen who  came  — the citizens who came



11     to  the meeting last night pay  for that out of their owi



12     pocket and use their own  time.   And that means that,



      that part  of the public is very much concerned and



      involved.  And we try  to  get those people.
15
                    We  have  to  publish guidelines for public
16    participation.   The  law  also  requires  us  to issue



17    guidelines  for  citizens  to  participate.   And that


10
     section of  the  law says  basically that any citizen,



     organization, or  group out  there  can  file suit against



     any party that  they  perceive  to be  in  violation of


91
     any regulation,  guideline,  or standard issued by EPA
     under h'oerJ.  And  they  file  in  the  federal court systei



     and  then the plaintiff  must  show cause  and all that



     stuff like they normally  have  to do.  This is -- this



     boiler plates to the  extent  it  is in  the  other federal

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                                                            20






 1    laws also.  But it does provide a mechanism to add  or




 2    issue regulations and how this can be done to challenge




 3    any individual who is -- could be in violation.   It




 4    is being done around the country.  There are environmental




 5    groups that do this routinely.  The Sierra Club has




 6    some.  The Environmental Defense has some.  All of  thea|e




 7    organizations which basically represent environmental




 8    interest uses citizen's suits provisions in the various




 9    environmental laws to challenge sites or facilities or




10    practices that may be in violation of federal law.




I'                  And the techniques we will be following




12    to try to get the puolic involved through  other than a




13    vast number of communications, the techniques of  the




'4    printed word, the spoken word, and visual  presentations




15    of information, and try to stimulate state programs




16    through our regional offices, build  into their mechanism




17    the same sort of public participation and  involvement




18    through the financial assistance programs  that we have,




19    we will try to provide financial assistance to state




20    governments to sell such a mechanism and to communicate




21    with their public that they  deal so  much closer with




22    than we do.




2-*                  We have to hold a  variety  of formal publi|c




24    hearings.  The law requires  us  to hold  public hearings




25    on regulations and guidelines issued  under the various

-------
      sections of the law.  These are formalized hearings.




 2    Testimony is taken and that testimony and the




 '    recommendations and comments in that testimony must




      be  dealt with in a formal and legal way by the Agency




 5    and we must show what we have done with the comments




 '    received.




 7                  Now that is different from this public




      meeting here today.  nfe are taking  a transcript for




      the primary purpose of helping us once we get into the




      feedback process which we have today to give us guidance




11    on  things that we need to be doing.  We will, not




12    publish any of those documents that rationalizes how



13
      we  have dealt with the comments that we have received




      at  these public meetings.




                    As Ray mentioned, a copy of this transcr:pt




16    will be available for anyone who wishes it.  And it




      will be available to anyone who attends here at no cost



18
      It  will t3ke a couple of months for us to grind this



19
      out and make them available.  But we will not respond




      back in a formal manner to anyone who is making a




      statement hare today because we can't do it all.  We




      will do this with the formal mechanism.  When we go


23
      into the public hearing process on the regulations and




      guidelines we will have to deal with the input in a


25
      formal way.

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                                                             22





 1                   There  are  a  variety of conferences around




 2     the country  that  we  are  holding  with various organizations




 3     national  and local,  that sponsor responsible solid




      waste management,  the  regional offices,  the headquarters




 5     staff in  solid waste programs  participate in this sort




 6     of activity.




                    And we will  hold a lot of  workshops




      around  the country or  small public meetings that provice




 '     a one-to-one  relationship,  almost, to better discuss




10     the problems  and  how we  should deal with them.




11                   We  have  also established in our regulatory




12     and guideline forming  process  formal  review groups




13     that will be  sitting with  us in  a variety of ways to




14     participate,  comment,  in the writing of  these documents




15     as they progress  rather  than to  wait until some day




      a proposed regulation  shows up in the Federal Register




17     and by  that  time  it is almost set in concrete and can1




      be changed.   We hope to  have input well  before we go




19     into the  register where  it is  proposed so that there




20     is a great deal of input by the  public in advance of




21     actually  developing the  regulation or the guideline.




22                   We  have  a  variety of public education




23     programs. Through our training grant program we have




      been giving  financial assistance to a variety of forma




25     organizations such as National Association of Counties

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                                                             23
 1    American  Public  Works  Association,   National Solid




 2    Waste Management Association,  League of Women Voters,




 3    for  them  to  develop an educational  program among their




     membership where they  can  discuss the problems of




 5    solid waste  management.




 6                   We will  continue this mechanism to




 7    educate the  public  and get feedback from the public on




 8    what  is going  on in solid  waste management.




 9                   The last provision I  will cover is the




10    manpower  development provision of Rfre-ra'.  In the old




11    law,  the  previous amendments,  the 1970 amendments to




12    the  Solid Waste  Disposal Act,  we were required to do a




13    manpower  study on the  needs for solid waste management




     That report  was  done and submitted to the Congress aboi^t




15    three years  ago.     it basically said:  Well, gee,




     unless  there is  dramatic change in how we do our




17    practices and  far stronger effort by state government




18    to manage, regulate, and enforce the disposal of solid




'9    waste management practices there doesn't seem to be a




20    big  demand for new manpower in solid waste management.




21    There is  not much of a career ladder.  There seems to




22    be always a  willing hand out there to come to work




     behind  a  truck and toss cans.




24                   And consequently we started to turn down
25
      as  most environment programs did our manpower developmi
nt

-------
                                                            ,24




     efforts.




 2                  With Wecxa', the new amendments do  —




 2    does set forth pathways  that start  the  demand  for more




     manpower at every level  of government  to  carry out  the




 5    requirements of  the law.




 6                  So ifecIM- requires  us  again  to do another




     manpower study in light  of the provisions of Recra  to




     determine what types  of  manpower and what level  will




     be needed around the  country to  implement the  law:




     state,  local level, and  at the industry level.




1,                  And this report  is required and  we have




12    to submit it to Congress and the President.  There  is




13    no deadline when this has to be  done.




14                  In addition, there is the same provision




15    for  training grants to help  the  training  of  solid




     waste manpower to meet the requirements of the new law,




                   That basically covers the public




18    participation and the manpower development provisions




19    of the  law.




                   We will take some  time now  to  answer




2i    any  questions that might have  come  up  during this




22    presentation.  If not we will  have  time at the end




23    also.   So do I have any  questions?




24                  Yes, sir.  Would you  please state  your




25            name, rank, and serial  number,  so  we  will have

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                                                               25
  1           it for the record?




  2                  MR. GRAHAM!  Jack 3raham, Public Works




  3           Director for the City of Fort Worth.




                    What provisions are made to inhibit at




  5           least frivolous lawsuits from being filed?




  6                  MR. HICKMAN:  I don't believe there is




  7           any wording in the law that says:  Thou shalt




  8           not file frivolous lawsuits.




  9                  And I am sure we will have frivolous




 '0           lawsuits.  Hopefully the data development and




 11           the dissemination of valid data, the structuring




 12           of strong state government, as solid waste




 '3           programs come to pass as the law anticipates




             the sort of data that will be available and the




 15           sort of quality of manpower that will be




 16           available at state level to field these




             problems should if not stop the frivolous




 18           lawsuits should give them very short shift in




             the court system.




 20                  There is nothing in there -- the whole




             key to this is the state agencies.  The law is




             basically designed to build strong state agencie




             and to pass through the state agencies to




24           information and assistance to state and local




25           government.  And if we don't achieve that we

-------
                                                             26
 1           will all be  In a lot  of  trouble.   It  will  be  a




 2           long, hot summer.




 3                  The gentleman  back  here.   Yes,  sir.




 4                  MR. KIKER:  Ersa  Kiker,  sanitation




 5           superintendent. City  of  Altus.  My question is«




 6                  Why was the Section 7002 in the law




 7           providing for citizen's  suits?  Has that an




 8           effort to have every  public citizen potentially




 9           enforce for  you folks — I mean,  do your work




10           for you so that everyone is going to be out




11           there looking around  and filing lawsuits or




12           why is there a provision for citizen's suits?




'3                  MR. HICKMANi   I can't tell you why the




14           Congress felt — why  the citizen's suit provisi




15           was built into the law.   It does  exist in other




16           environmental laws.




17                  Perhaps the Congress recognizes this one




'8           because of the fact  that we at  the ^federal leva




19           do not have  regulatory enforcement authority




20           under this law.




21                  it is basically designed to pass it to




22           state government within the framework of some




23           broad national objectives.  And perhaps the




24           Congress perceives  that indeed  as you suggest




25           — the Congress believes that the one who shoul

-------
                                                             27





 1            be  enforcing this  law is  the citizen, the one




 2            who is  most directly affected by the law, by




 3            improper practices that might occur.




 4                   The  law sets up a  structure providing




 5            technical and financial assistance for state and




 6            local government hopefully to minimize the




 7            practices that could occur that would be impropejr




 8            and be  in violation to certain portions of the




 9            law.




 10                   That is the only way I can understand it




 11            is  that the citizen does  have a right, if there




 12            are improper practices out there, to be involvec




 13            in  trying to change those practices.




 14                   Now  perhaps the court system is not the




 15            best way.  But it is there.  And I don't know




 16            --  the  citizen supervision in the past has




 17            been primarily used to sue EPA than the state




 18            and local level.  We know of several suits withi|n




 19            our old law for not meeting the requirements




 20            of  implementing sections  of the 1970 amendments.




 21                   It made a dramatic change in what we




 22            were doing.  We weren't writing any guidelines




 23            before. And after the suit was filed we wrote




 24            several guidelines.  It is amazing what happens,




25            sometimes.

-------
                                                              28




                    The gentleman  here.   We  will  get you all



                    MR. KINSEYi  A.  V. Kinaey,  Champion



 ,           Building Products.  You mentioned  in your



            comments there  this morning  that there  are



            grants  being awarded  to determine   the  need



            for added manpower in the operation  of  these
 6


 7           facilities.



 „                   How is this being done  to be  reflective



 9           of all  plants,  all industries?



1Q                   MR. HICKMAN:   Well,  let  me  point out tha



            of course there is no money yet.



                    MR. KINSEY:  How is  it  to be  done?



)3                   MR. HICKMAN:   The law has not been  funde



            yet.  Basically they  are authorizing -- funding



            provisions start  fiscal year  '78 which is



,6           October 1 of this year.
17
                   And  our  current  budget -- there is no mo
18            in  our  current  proposed budget for manpower


,9            development.  Because  of the  amount of money



2Q            available  to  the  Agency to implement the law



             we  had  to  make  certain priority judgments on



22            where the  money would  go.   In fiscal year '78



23            there is no money for  training, manpower develop



24            merit grants.  And there is no money to do



25            manpower studies.  And we  do  have a person on
ey

-------
                                                              29
            our staff  right  now working full time starting


.           to develop a  manpower  plan and program so that



3           we can  do  whJt  is  required by Congress but ther<


            are no  funds  for it yet.


5                   What will happen eventually of course


            will  ce  that  --  we have hud training grant

                               K.eQ
            programs before.  -He-era doesn't allow us to


            make  grants to  profit-making groups.  It provid«


            mechanisms for  us  to give grants to non-profit



            groups  such as ^states, local governments,


            universities, research foundations.


12                   And our  training grant programs in the


13           past  have  gone  to organizations that are involv*d


            in developing public education such as the


            League  of  Women  Voters, as I mentioned,  to



            universities  to develop manpower.


17                   And we have used some of that money to


18           develop training courses that can oe used at


19           the operating level.  We have developed  a


20           safety  training course which is a package coursf


            which any  director of sanitation can get for


22           sixty-five dollars which has slides, manuals,



23           the whole  bit on sanitary landfill  operation


24                   And we will continue  to do this sort of


25           work  in the future as funds  become  availaole.

-------
                                                               30
 1                   MR.  KINSEY:  So there really may not be




 2            a  determination of how much added manpower will




 3            be required --




 4                   MR.  HICKMAN: Thdt  is correct.   Just




 5            because the law says we have to  do  it,  the




             things  that are mandated  under a certain time




 7            frame will  oe done first.




 8                   And  as we see in the record  here the




 9            hazardous waste, land disposal, jitate  program




10            and local program development, there  are clearli




11            mandated calendar times that we  have  to do




12            certain things.  And those demand  the  first bud




13            Like your own budget at home,  you  know, the




14            things that --  the rent gets paid  first and the:




15            if you have got some left you  go out  and have




16            a  steak dinner.




17                   Yes , ma 'am.




18                   MS.  HfiADRICK:  Lucindd  Headrick of the




19            League of tfomen Voters of Texas.  And how will




20            this particular section about  public  participat




21            help the states to be more productive  in public
22            participation.  We are  not seeing this complete
23            with the water pollution  control act.  Will




24            .JtiriTs be any different?




25                   MR. HICKMAN:   rfell,  I certainly hope so,
y

-------
 1            I like to always  think  that the programs that I




 2            have been involved with for the last ten, elevei




 3            years have done better  than the other parts of




 *            environmental work.   If we  didn't we would"stilJ




 5            be here working.




 6                   I think that  because &*e-ra recognizes —




 7            this is a new generation of federal law  and I




 8            think it recognizes  that there have been a whole




 9            lot of rip-offs of the  public in the past by




10            federal action.




11                   And the law,  you know, the law spends a




12            lot of time describing  ways and mechanisms for




13            us to try to get  the  public more involved.




14                   I think we are going to try to build thai;




15            same sort of awareness  and  sensitivity in the




16            guidelines that we have to  issue for state




'7            governments, what is  a  jsta te program, to try to




18            build into their  programs the same sort of




1'            public involvement.




20                   of course, they  are  much closer to the




21            firing line than  we  are. A lot of j»_ta tes have




22            been actively involved  anyway, hearings and




"            procedures for site  acquisition.




2*                   I think what  has been missing in all




             aspects of public participation is getting the

-------
                                                             .32
 1           people  involved  early,  during the planning




 2           process and  daring  the  decisions that are going




 3           to  be made on  how the money is going to be spent




 4           rather  than  after you have made the decision




 5           and  the only point  you  ever get together on is




 6           on  the  punitive  side  of it in a regulation




 7           hearing that you are  trying to plan in somewhere




 8                   So  we are going  to try to build that same




 9           sort of awareness when  the money is available




10           to  state governments  fron the law to try to




11           create  that  same sort  of sensitivity at the




12           front end  rather than  just at the back end of




13           the  environmental regulation.  We will try.




14                   MS. HEADRICK:   But the water pollution




15           act said the same thing in several sections.




16                   MR. HICKMAN:  I  am not sure what the




17           nuances and  differences are between the two;




18           you have probably looked at them and can compar




19           them much  better than I can.




20                   But we  are going to try.  We are going




21           to  build  it  into our guidelines, we are going




22           to  try  to  provide financial assistance and




23           technical  guidance and through our own informat




24           program try  to give the states the sort of  tool




25           they need  to do what — precisely what you  are

-------
                                                              33
 1            suggesting.   There is no guaranty.




 2                   And even if we work our heart out half




 3            of  the  states are going to do a superior job and




 4            another portion are going to do a good job and




 5            some  are never going to do a good job, just like




 6            we,  the feds, sometimes we do a good job and




 7            sometimes we don't.  We are still dealing with




 8            people.




 9                   And no matter how much you try to devise




 10            guidance it gets down essentially to the people




 11            who are trying to carry out the program or these




 12            sort  of things.




 13                   Are there any other questions?  Yes, ma'




 14                   MS. HANSBfiRRY:  I am Betsy Hansberry




 15            with  Browning-Ferris Industries.  And what




 16            method  are you going to use to inform the public




 17            of  all  of these public hearings you are having




 !8            and public meetings?  Are you going to publish




 "            it  in the Federal Register?  How can we stay




 20            informed of your activity? and do you have some




 21            method  devised for additional input from private




 22            industry?




 23                   MR. HICKMAN:  Yes.  We will always




 24            publish the hearings, the formal hearings on




25            regulations and guidelines, will be published

-------
 1            in the Federal Register.  That  is  probably about




 2            the worst way in the world  to communicate  if




 3            you want to advise people you are  going  to have




 4            a meeting.  If you want to  make  sure  nobody shovs




 5            up, publish it in the Federal Register.    As




 6            long as only one shows up the people  in  Washington




 7            have a window to read the material.




 8                   We will serve notice  in  newspapers, you




 9            know, in the locale of the  hearing.   Our regions 1




10            office people, the regional  office staffs  of  th«




11            Agency will work with _s_tate  agencies  and the




12            local areas to try to bring  an  awareness of the




13            fact that we are going to hold  a meeting.




14                   We will use every mechanism we can  in




IS            order to try and get it known well in advance




16            the notice that meetings a re going to be held.




17                   I have a chart on my wall in my office




18            that we are just now working on that  shows that




19            between now and the end of  this calendar year




20            we are going to hold well in excess of a hundred




21            public meetings of different typea around the




22            country.   We are moving out of Washington




23            because that is not where the problem is.   Ther-s




24            is another problem in Washington but  we  will




25            talk about that later on.   But  we  will try to
                                                               34

-------
                                                               35





 1           communicate as best we  can.




 2                  Now as far as  the  industry's  side,  we




 3           are setting up a couple of mechanisms to provide




 4           us input from a lot of  different interest  groups




 5                  We have requested  the  formation of  a




 <,           formal advisory gr^up.  It  is going  to take awhifle




 7           through the governmental  process,  setting  up a




 8           couple of ad hoc study  groups which  will represent




 9           the different industry  groups.   NSWMA will be in




10           on that as well as will APWA  because they




11           represent the two operating  sides  of solid




12           waste management.




13                  And the policy side will also be represented




14           by such groups such as  the National  Governors




15           Conference and ICMA and places like  that.




16                  And the environmental  side  will be




17           represented too.  And through that mechanism,




18           that formal -- sort of  ad hoc formal mechanism




19           industry will be represented.




20                  In addition each of  our regulations and




21           guidelines — we are  going  to have some twenty




22           to thirty individuals identified who will be




23           representing all of the segments that are out




24           there  in the solid waste  management field.




25                  They will receive  drafts of every document

-------
                                                             36
 1
            we are working on for feedback.  And from  time
            to time hold meetings with  them to discuss wher<




3           we are.




t                  MS. HANSBERRY:  How  will you  use  those




            individuals?




                   MR. HICKMANj rtell, we have a  big  table,
6


            again -- you have got to start with  something,




.           you know.  Of all the different sorts  of
o



„           interest groups, you know,  from the  left to




..           the right and all the way across.  And I can




            never remember  from a political standpoint




]2           which is left and which is  right.  It  surely  is




,3           not important.




14                  So when  I say left to right I am  not



.,           speaking in  terms of political but my  left and




16           right arm, from industry groups such as  MCA.,




17           et cetera.all the way over  to  the other  side




,8           with professional organizations and  governmental




]„           organizations,  environmental organizations and




2Q           citizen  organizations.




21                  And over a period of time we  will try




22           to make  sure that all of those  groups  get




23           involved somehow in  some process.  And if




24           possible those  who  particularly have a strong




25           interest, you know,  a particular  section of  the

-------
                                                              37
 1           law,  a particular regulation, a particular




 2           guideline.




 3                  And  we will make the judgment of who we




 4           ask.   tfe just have to do that because we can




 5           try to have -- frankly I think most of these who




 6           work  actually in the field of solid waste




 1           management  are going to be nauseous from talking




 8           to us by the time this calendar year is over.




 '                  I don't think yoa will be able to say




 I"           you didn't  have a chance.  If you do let us




 11            know  and we will sure change it because we want




 '2           you to have that chance.




 13                  Nugent?




 14                   MR.  MYRICK:  Thank you, Lanny.  I look




 '5           forward to  your coming to Houston.  The only




 16           concern I have here is we are going to be




 17           creating a  whole new industry that is not




 "           represented by any of these public sector groups




 '"           now that you have discussed, particularly the




 2"           service industry for preprocessing and preparing




 21            industrial  and concentrated residuals.




 2                   And  there is I think you might call them




 23            a  whole sector of  garbage truck operators who




             are not even organized.  And then there is a




25            whole new industry that is a void, that is yet

-------
                                                             33
 1           to come about.  And I believe  that  is  the  only




 2           concern we envision.  We are concerned about




 3           who you are going to talk  to and work  with.




 4           I think the major product  is going  to  end  up




 5           coming from this new Act and the provisions




 6           thereto.




 7                  MR. HICKMANs  Well,  Nugent,  I certainly




 8           hope that through the public meetings  we hold




 9           and I guess we were just asked about coming




10           down to Houston and putting this dog and pony




11           show on and in the Corpus  area. This  will give




12           some of the haulers a chance  to come  in.




13                  Through this sort of meetings and througl




14           the public hearings and the other  public




IS           meetings  that we have around the  country --




16           no one represents the hauler but,  you  know,




17           maybe somebody does and somebody doesn't.   I




18           don't know.




19                  MR. MYRICKs The  liquid slurry types are




20           the ones  I am  thinking  of.




21                  MR. HICKMANs   I  hope some of them can




22           find time  to  come  to  the night meeting  if they




23           can't during  the  day  and  tell us about  it.




24           That's why we  are  trying  to hold night meetings




25  I         too.  You know,  an  afternoon matinee and an

-------
                                                              39
 1           evening performance and you close  up  the  trunk.




 2           It's a one-night stand.  We are  off to San




 3           Francisco in the morning for  this  same sort  of




            thing Thursday and Friday.




                   And we are trying.  That's  all —  you




            can't say we are not  trying.  We  will  do  the  best




            we can.




                   I want to tell you  something.  This  is




 9           my fourth time to do  the public  participation




10           and the manpower development  part  and that  is




11           kind of a ho-hum presentation.   And this  is  the




12           first group that has  ever  asked  me any questions




13           I am delighted.




14                  MR. LOZANOs  Thank  you, Lanny.  We are




15           just about on schedule.  Let's take a fifteen




16           minute break right now.




17                       (After a  short recess  the following




18                       proceedings were  had:)




19                  MR. LOZANO:  The next  presentation is




20           on hazardous wastes.  The  hazardous waste




21           section of the Act will be given by Bill




22           Sanjour, Chief, Assessment and Technology




23           Branch, Hazardous Waste Division,  Office  of




24           Solid Waste in Washington. Bill?




25                  MR. SANJOURj   Thank you.  Has  everyone

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                                                              40
 1     staggered  in?




 2                   I  am  going  to  talk  about Subtitle C in




 3     the new Act  which deals with hazardous waste.   And in




      this  part  of the Act  we are  dealing with,  almost




 5     exclusively  with, industrial wastes.   We  are  not




 6     talking aoout  trash and garbage.




                    And most hazardous  wastes will  be a




      by-product of  industrial  manufacturing.  That  is not




 9     to say all industrial wastes are  hazardous.   I imagine




10     a very small portion  of it  is,  on the order  of five or




11     ten per cent.  But  the chief parties  affected  will be




12     industry.




13                   I  am  going  to  start with Section 3001,




14     which is the definition of a hazardous waste.  And the




15     Administrator  is required after eighteen months after




      the passage  of the  Act which was  last October  to




17     promulgate criteria for hazardous wastes




18                   And the Act provides two mechanisms for




      actually identifying  the  waste  and that is either




      identifying  the  characteristics of the waste  or by




21     listing specific wastes.  And the Administrator can




      use one method or the other  or  both.




                    Let me  read to you the specific provisions




24     of the Act used  for this  definition.   That is, it is




25     to take into account  toxicity,  persistence,  and

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 1    degradability in>nature, potential for accumulation in



 2    tissue,  and other related factors such as flammability,



 3    corrosiveness,  and other hazardous characteristics.



                    Section 3002 of the Act are for standards



      on persons who generate hazardous wastes.  These




 6    standards are to include record keeping and labeling of



 7    the waste.  And to comply with a manifest system.  This




 8    is a system which Congress patterned  after the system



 9    that is  used in Texas and California for keeping track



 10    of hazardous wastes whereby the generator has to fill



 11     out forms and the waste is treated essentially as a



      commodity in that records are kept of its movements an



 13     its ultimate disposal.  And generators are required to



 14     comply with that system.



 15                  Section 3003 of the Act are standards fo:



 16    transporters of hazardous wastes.  These are very



 17    similar to the standards for the generators: record


 10
      keeping, labeling, compliance with the manifest system



 19                   In addition, in this section EPA is



      going to try to coordinate its requirements on



 21     transporters with the Department of Transportation




      so that we don't duplicate or have too much paper work




      for transporters of these wastes.



                    Section 3004 of the Act are for owners,


25
      operators of treatment, storage, and disposal faciliti
                                                              41

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                                                              42

     IUL iiazdtuuua

                   The Act here  specifically calls  for
 3
     standards on record  keeping  and  reporting,  monitoring
     sections, location and  design  of facilities,  maintenance
     and operation  of  facilities, contingency plans in case
 °   of emergencies  or  spills. And requirements for owner-
     ship  in  the case  of  posting  bonds in case of
 o
     responsibility.
 9
                    In  addition to those specific provisions
     of the Act  there  is  a more general provision  which
     says  that the  Administrator  must write standards as
     may be necessary  to  protect  human health and  environment.
13
     This  is  a rather  broad,  non-specific term which can
14
     include  such things  as  standards on ground water
     protection, surface  water protection, ai'r protection,
     perhaps  even things  like odors and noise could come
     under this  provision.   This  is subject to the discretic
18
     of the administrator.
19
                    This  is a -- in  general, any area which
20
     gives you this broad discretionary authority, these
     are  the  areas  where  it  is most important for  the
22
     public  to comment.
23
                    The Administrator  has very little leeway
24
     - you can comment up and down.  It is not going to
25
     make  much difference.   When  he  is required to do

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                                                             43






  1    something he is going to do it - these are the areas




  2    where he has discretion that public comments are




  3    particularly useful and necessary.  And in fact influen




  *    things the most.




  5                  Now the purpose of these regulations,




  6    Section 3004,  are for the issuance of permits which are




  7    regulated under 3005.




  8                  Under the Act persons who treat, store,




  9    and  dispose of hazardous wastes are required to have




 10    a  permit to do so.   Now this does not apply to generators




 11    or transporters.




 12                  These permits would be issued by the




 13    state government if the state government takes over the




 14    hazardous waste program.  If not they will be issued




 15    by the federal government.  In this sense it is similar




 16    to NPDS purposes.




 '7                  There are several different provisions




 18    for  permits.  One is for interim permits.  And this




 19    will be covered again in Section 3010 whereby after




 20    the  federal government defines hazardous wastes, persons




 21    who treat, store, or dispose of such wastes are required




 22    to notify the  government.  And they are then sent




 23    the  permit application.  And when this application is




 24    sent in they have an interim permit.




25                  In other words, so long as they comply

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                                                             44
 1    with the paper  work  and the federal government has




 2    not gotten around - or whatever government is doing



 3    that has not gotten around to issuing the formal permit




 4    the interim permit therefore exists.  So if anyone will



 5    apply for a permit it is not in violation of the law.



 6    But they are if they don't apply.




 7                  And there are provisions for ultimate



 8    permits and the standards under 3004 are the standards




     that would apply to the issuance of these permits.




10                  Section 3006 of the Act are the guideline



11    for j_tate government laying out the conditions under



12    which the^states may assume the hazardous waste program




     In general. Congress intended that  the states would



14    assume this program.  And the guidelines will reflect



15    that intent.



16                  Congress provided for an interim



     authorization of thejstate program  in the case of



18    states which have existing, on-going, hazardous waste




     programs  which do not comply in all  respects with  the


90
     federal guidelines then an interim  authorization can

     ^


21    be given  for the states  to continue  for  several years


22
     while the adjustments are made  for  the^federal program.



                   The law requires  three  things  for the




     authorization of a state  programs   That  is,  it  is



     equivalent  to the federal 'program.   It  is  consistent

-------
 1    with other  state  programs.  And  there  is  adequate




 2    enforcement under Subtitle  C.



 3                  Now again,  these are  in  the nature of



 4    rather vague, discretionary  authorities on the  part of



 5    the Administrators  What  does equivalent  mean?  what



 6    does consistent mean? what  does  adequate  mean?  And



 7    again, these are  areas where  the public can  have



 8    considerable influence because there  is vague, discretijan-



 9    ary authority.




 10                  Section 3010  of the Act  is  for notif icat i)on.



 11    This is where persons who generate,  transport, treat,



 12    store, and  dispose  of hazardous  wastes are required to




 13    notify the federal  government of their existence after




 14    the ^federal  government has  promulgated the definition



 15    of hazardous waste.




 16                  This  is not actually  a  requirement on the



 17    Jederal government  at all or  on  the state governments.



 ®    However, since we suspect a great many people  out there



 19    don't read  the federal register  and would not  know



 20    that they were in jeopardy  when  these  regulations  are



 21    promulgated, we are going to  develop a program of  tryin|g



 22    to notify all of  the people who  should notify  us that




     they should  notify  us.



                   We  are going  to need  a  lot  of  cooperation


25
     in finding  out who  thesj  people  are that  we  should
                                                              45

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                                                             46





 1    notify.  They are required within three months after




 2    promulgation of 3001 to notify that they are  in  the




 3    system.  We recognize that most people will not  know




 4    whether or not their waste is hazardous even  after we




 5    define hazardous wastes.




 6                  However, it is to their interest to




 7    notify us if they are in doubt.  They have nothing to




 8    Ipse.  But if they do not notify us and do come  under




 9    the Act then there will be a fine of twenty-five thousand




10    dollars a day or something like that.




11                  So when in doubt, notify.  That's  the




12    approach to take.




13                  Section 3011 of the Act is a grant  program




14    for providing assistance to the state governments,




15    those jstate governments that assume the hazardous




16    waste program, there are provisions for providng grants




17    for the states to run their programs.  And there is




18    an allocation scheme provided by Congress  that depends




19    upon  the extent of the hazardous waste program within




20    that  state.




21                  How much money will be available  in that




22    program is yet to be determined.  The maximum




23    authorization is, what, Lanny?  Twenty-five  —




24                  MR. HICKMAN:  Twenty-five million.




25                  MR. SANJOUK: Twenty-five million was

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                                                             47
 1   authorized.  Whether  it  is actually appropriated  we




 2   have yet  to see.  There  is nothing yet.




 3                 And that concludes my presentation.




 4   Are there any questions?




 5                 MS. BRENCKLE:  My name  is Mary  Brenckle.




 6           I  am with Exxon.  My question  is:   Is  it the




 7           intent of the  law to distinguish between




 8           generators who dispose  or treat hazardous  wastes




 9           on their own land like  land farming or land




             spreading  and owners or operators  of  waste




 11            treatment and  disposal  facilities?




 12                  MR. SANJOUR:  No distinction is made  in




 13            the law.  And  intentionally so.  Congress




             considered that distinction.   In Texas, as you




 15            know, people are  not required  to comply with




             the law  if they dispose of  it  on their own




             property.



 18
                   This was considered  by  Congress and




             rejected by Congress.   And  no  distinction  is




 20            made.




 21                  MS. BRENCKLE:  And so the same  standards




             would apply to both?




 23                  MR. SANJOUR:  Yes.


 24
                   Any other  questions?




25                  MR. MONTGOMERY:  My  name  is  John

-------
 1           Montgomery.  I am with the Ma lone Company.   I




 2           have a question about 3001,  identification  of




 3           hazardous material.  My interest here  is  in the




 4           transportation.  As we know, the DOT has  clearly




 5           defined what they considered to be  hazardous




 6           good material.  They have  it all listed  out,




 7           having to do with the transportation of  hazardou




 8           good material.




 9                  But they don't seem to  have  any criteria




10           for identification of hazardous wastes.   DOT




11           and SPA will probably work together on the




12           federal level.




13                  la it your feeling  that the  EPA will be




14           called upon to  identify what wastes will be




15           hazardous and the DOT will accept  those




16           definitions in  their regulations  for  the




17           transportation  of the material?




18                  MR. SANJOUR:  Yes.  That  is  precisely it.




'9                  Any other questions?  Yes,  sir.




20                  MR. STURM:  My name is  Raymond  Sturm.  I




21           am an Austin attorney.   In the handout materials




22           that were at the back, of  the room  there  is a




23           statement  on page  3«  States may not provide for




24           penalties  less  than  those  provided under the




25           bill. And  it references  Sections 3008 and  3009.
                                                               48

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                                                             49
 1                   Do  you  agree  with  that statement?




 2                   MR.  SANJOUR:  No,  I don't beat my wife.




 3            Could  you  tell me  where  in the Act?  what




 4            section of  the Act are we talking about?




 5            3008?   what paragraph?




 6                   MR.  HICKMANi   What handout is he reading?




 7                   MR.  SANJOURj   I haven't even  seen the




 8            handout.




 9                   The  handout says:  Criminal penalties may




 10            be  imposed  on  persons transporting hazardous




 11            wastes  without a permit. . . .




 12                   That is not correct as far as the




 '3           federal law is concerned.  It may be understate




 I4            law.   In the federal law  persons transporting




 15            hazardous wastes are not  required to have a




 16            permit. Only  persons treating,  storing, and




 17            disposing  of hazardous wastes are required to




 I8            have a  permit.




 19                   States  may  not provide for penalties




 20            less than  those provided  under the bill.




 21                   Well, does  the bill say that?




 22                   MR.  STURM:  That  is my question.  It




 23            doesn't say that to  me.




 24                   MR.  HICKMAN:   Well, the law does say




25            that the state program must be equivalent or

-------
 1           better.




 2                  MR. SANJOUR:  Not under Section 3008 it




 3           doesn't.  Hell, could I ask:  Who wrote this




 4           handout?  Is he here?




 5                  MR. STURM:  I withdraw the question.




 6                  MR. SANJOUR: Thank you.  I appreciate




 7           that.  Any other questions?  Yes, sir.




 8                  MR. MYRICK:  Nugent Myrick, The Process




 '           Company in Houston.  One of the concerns that




10           we see so often iss  Public Law 94-850 creates




11           a substantial volume of material which may




12           possibly be industrial hazardous wastes.  Okay.




13           We don't know what the definitions are yet but




14           we are evolving those definitions and defining




15           those materials.  But in the meantime there is




"           a major problem in trying to relate at the local




            planning function  of the local government how



1R
            much of the concentrated residues are being




19           excluded from  the  sewers?  what are they? where




20           are they going? and is there going to be any



21
            planning funds at  all to try  to make sense out




            of this problem.   Local governments are very




            concerned about  this subject and  there are



24
            service industries who would  like to respond  to




            it also.  Now  whether they are concentrated and
                                                             50

-------
                                                            51
1           are hazardous or whether they are just



2           concentrated and non-sewerable, that's another



3           issue.  But we really need to see some planning



4           funds and are we going to see some come about?



5           Every city in the nation needs this badly.



6                  MR. SANJOUR:  Of Course, you put your



7           finger on one of the major reasons this Act



8           was passed in the first place.  congress recogni




9           that — the logic was just shuffling things



'0           around, hazardous materials, and pollution —



11           not solving the problem, just spending a lot



!2           of money shifting it around from one place to




13           another.



14                  And this Act was expected to put an end




15           to that practice and force, if you like, federal
                                                     ^^


16           agencies responsible for different portions of



17           pollution to integrate their programs with one




18           another.



19                  I believe that Congress intended that



20           Section 208 of the water act to provide the



21           integration function.




22                  Do you have a problem with that?



23                  MH. MYRICK: Unfortunately it didn't


*)A
            really work that way. Because what happens is




            208 really only relates to point source major
ed

-------
 1           dischargers in the industrial sector.  And




 2           there is really no way for that kind of thing




 3           to be really brought out and discussed and




 4           really magnified with innercity major discharger




 5                  You are talking about anybody from servic<




 6           industries that have got five gallons of materia




 7           a month to two thousand a day.




 8                  And you are dealing with an innercity




 9           industry as compared to a point source discharge




10           that goes direct.




11                  MR. SANJOUR:  Let me —




12                  MR. MYRICKj  The process industry is




13           not the real problem here.  It is the innercity




14           industry that ie our real problem, I think.




15                  MR. HICKMAN:  All right.  Under Subtitle




16           D there are planning provisions for the develop-




17           ment and implementation of state and local




18           plans.  The development of jjtate plans.  There




19           is also — and the law says that j^tate governmen




20           and local elected officials must come together




21           in an agreement as to what each level of




            government will do in the development and




23           implementation of that plan and the law does not




24           say what is an agreement.  Those are things we




            will have to write into guidelines for that issub

-------
                                                              53
 1                       The law says wherever  possible  to
 2           utilize those planning procedures  that are  now
 3           place.
 4                  208 basically focuses  on  residuals after
 5           it comes out the downside  of  the plant.
 6                  You can deal with non-point source but
 7           here again this would be basically at  the disposal
 8           site and not in the innercity.   The 208  mechanisn
 9           would not be applied inside.   That would be left
10           up to the operating agencies  operating the
11           program within the jurisdiction  of that
12           geographic area.  They will do that sort of
13           planning within the authority of Recra Subtitle  |D,
I4           not  under 208.
15                  Does that answer  your  question?
16                  MR. MYRICK:  In part.
17                  MR. HICKMANs  What  is  the rest  of your
18           question?
1?                  MR. MYRICKs Are we  going  to get any
20           dollars?  We have talked to _s,tata  agencies  all
2'           across the United States.  And they come to
22           that problem.
23                  MR. HICKMAN:  Ask me  that question after
24
            program  development about the  budget.   Okay?
             we  finish the discussion on^state and local
25

-------
                                                             54
  1                  We will  talk about that.




  2                  MR. SANJOURj  Yea, sir.




  3                  MR. ROBERTSON:  Charles  Robertson,




  4           Pollution Control  Incorporated,  El Dorado,




  5           Arkansas.




  6                  Under  3004,  in the last  sentence concerni




  7           the  operation of a disposal facility, we talk




  8           about the financial  responsibility.  What




  9           efforts are being  made on any basis as to the




 10           Washington level to involve the insurance compan




 11           of  this country in the bonding  requirements that




 12           are  going to  be set forth for disposal site




 13           operators?




 14                  MR. SANJOUR:  We are talking to them.




 15                  MR. ROBERTSON:  Better luck than we are




 16           having, I hope.




 17                  MR. SANJOUR:  I doubt it.  Let me put




 18           it  this way:   We are certainly aware of the




 19           problem. We  are checking it out.  And we are




 20           not  going to  require anyone to do something that




 21           cannot be done that w^ know it can't.




 22                  We very often require people to do things




 23           that cannot  be done and that is because we don't




 24           know it cannot be done.




25                  Any more questions?  Thank you.

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                                                              55
 1                  MR. LOZANO:   There  is  a  telephone  message




 2           for Mr. Charles Short  of PDA.   Call  your  office.




 3                  The next presentation  is on land disposal




 4           Subbing for Dr. Skinner will  be Lanny  Hickman.




 5                  MR. HICKMAN:  I mentioned earlier  that




 6     the law  is a  three-cornered — has a three-cornered




 7     foundation: hazardous waste,  land disposal  provisions,




 8     and resource  conservation provisions.




 9                  The land disposal provisions  of the  law




 10     are basically in two portions:  One, Subtitle D  which




 11     is called state and local solid waste  management plan.




 12     But that is really a misnomer.  When you read that.




 13                  And then Section 1008  which requires




 14     the Agency to issue guidelines.




 15                  Now I think tne first  thing we  ought




 16     to do  is to review four  definitions.   We need to review




 17     these  because it is very important to  understand the




 18     difference now that these amendments bring  into  solid




 "     waste  management field.




 20                  in the old, prior,  law,  the Solid  Waste




 21     Disposal Act  of '65 as amended in 1970,  disposal really




 22     was defined to reflect more generically the term solid




 23     waste  management and covered  the  movement,  control, and




 24     handling of solid waste  from  the  original generation




25     to the ultimate treatment,  recovery, and disposal.

-------
                                                             56




 1                  Now with the new definitions Congress has



 2    defined disposal  more in keeping with what we perceive



 3    as  placing any solid waste on land.



 4                  And it says basically that any solid



 5    waste  that is placed on, in,  through, under, or around,



 6    injected or whatever on the land, that is disposal. Any



 7    solid  waste.



 8                  And then it defines an open dump which



 9    it  did not do before and says that an open dump is any



10    disposal site that does not fit the criteria and definition


                                                    IcCISft
'1    of  a sanitary landfill that will be defined by -Htoerar.



12                  And then it defines a sanitary landfill



13    as  a disposal site for disposal of solid waste in



I4    keeping with the  practice issued under Subtitle D where



'5    we  have to issue  criteria for what is an open dump and



16    a sanitary landfill.



17                  It  does not imply that there are any



18    nuances in between open dumps and sanitary landfills.



19    Subtitle D does talk about types of sanitary landfills.



20    Those  of you who  are familiar with the State of



2'    California, they  have class one, two, and three disposa



22    sites  for sanitary landfill based on conditions of the



23    site and judge what types of waste can and cannot be



24    accepted at that site.



25                  And the really magic definition  now  in

-------
                                                            57






 1    Recra that makes this whole law so different is  that




 2    now it defines solid wastes - and that includes  hazardous




 3    waste - any solid, liquid, setnisolid, or entrained




 4    gaseous materials, sludges, or whatever.




 5                  And so basically now, through only the




 6    whims of Congress, we now define a liquid aa a solid.




 7    You have got to understand that because it is very




 8    important.  Because it is the intent of the law  to make




 9    sure that any waste that  isn't being handled under




10    FWPCA or any products that come out of any act to




11    protect the air and water resources, that waste  has to




12    be lined up and dealt with somewhere else.  This law




13    is supposed to take care  of it either as a hazardous




14    waste if it meets the criteria that Bill is going to




15    write and if not it has got to be handled through the




16    state program or land resource and conservation  efforts




17                  Anything that is liquid or solid,  if you




'8    are going to put it on the land, this law haa to be




19    recognized and dealt with.  That is a very important




20    and significant change.  And it places those programs




21    that are involved with the management of waste and




22    land disposal operations  in a role of equal partnership




23    with other parts of the environmental movement.




24    And so more and more intelligent decisions can be made,




25                  Section 4004 which is under Subtitle D

-------
                                                            53
 1    requires the Administrator to within one year of the




 2    enactment of the Act which is  October 21st, 1977,




 3    must issue criteria for what is sanitary landfill.




 4                  He must issue criteria for classifying




 5    sanitary landfills and open dumps giving strong




 6    consideration to the reasonable probability of adverse




 7    effects from disposal practices.




 8                  The law says that henceforth, after  these




 9    criteria are issued, certain other things are supposed




10    to happen, all disposal will be by sanitary landfill.




11                And that the state plans that have to  be




12    developed must be based upon a foundation of sanitary




13    landfill disposal as well as hazardous waste regulation




14    from cradle to the grave.




15                  Now Section 4005 talks about the upgrading




16    of open dumps.  And that section says that  the




'7    Administrator shall conduct an inventory of all those




'8    disposal sites that fall within the criteria for an




19    open dump.  And shall within twelve months after the




20    criteria for open dumps have been issued, publish  that




21    list of all sites across the country that fall within




22    the criteria of being an open dump.




23                  what that means is that any site that




24    fits that criteria and are listed on the list are




25    immediately in violation of federal law.  Not subject

-------
                                                             59
 1    to EPA regulation and enforcement but subject to




 2    regulation and enforcement by state government or by




 3    anybody elae out there that sees it and thinks that,




 4    that site is in violation.




 5                  So this creates a. real problem for the




 6    operator of a site that maybe thought he was doing a




 7    good job at least as far as some criteria the state




 8    might have placed on him or his own and all of a sudden




 9    finds that for some reason this facilities no longer,




10    by definition of the law, is in compliance.




11                  And he is sort of subject to the action




12    of the court real quickly.  And the law provides a




13    mechanism to give that operator of that land disposal




14    site to have protection for a period of time while he




15    is converting that site to meet the new requirements




16    of the new law for closing it and opening a sanitary




17    landfill.




18                  This is done by the_^tate planning proces i




19    The law says that all disposal sites within five years




20    after the list is published must be either converted  to




21    a sanitary landfill or closed.  And that all new sites




22    that open must be sanitary landfills.




23                  And meanwhile the state must develop a




24    schedule for such conversion or completion, or closing.




25    So tae planning umbrella protects the disposal site for

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                                                              60
 1    a five year period.  Not  to  exceed  five  years,  while



 2    changes are being made, alternatives  found,  better



 3    solutions are being sought.  So  this  is  a  very  key



 4    provision of the law as it relates  to the  state planninj.



 5                  And the state, just as  in  this hazardous



 6    waste portion, the states don't  have  to  play.   And



 7    neither does local government  have  to play.   There is



 8    financial assistance authorized  for them to  play and



 9    the incentive for active  participation by  state and



10    local government in this  provision  of the  law as well



11    as in the provision of  the hazardous  waste portion is



12    to protect the owner and  operator of  the facility while



13    they are making changes to meet  th- new  requirements of



14    the law.



15                  And uecause of some of  the financial



16    mechanisms available  in the  absence of state participat



17    local government cannot receive  financial  assistance.



18                  So there  is a  strong incentive for  the



"    state and local government  to   join in a partnership
     ^^


20    which the law designs and requires them to do to



21    participate within the  law.



22                  Section 1008  requires the Administrator



23    within  twelve months and  from  time to time thereafter



24    to issue guidelines on  all  aspects of solid waste



25    management.   Now I am just  going to talk about  land

-------
                                                               61
 1    disposal here and Tom Canfield will then talk about




 2    resource conservation and talk about guidelines to be




 3    issued in that area.




 4                  It says that those guidelines issued




 5    within twelve months of the passage of the law must




 6    consider and include a technical and economical




 7    description of that process, technique, that the




 8    guideline is written for, and the level of performance




 9    that can be — that is reasonable for the purpose of




 10    protecting public health and environment.  These




 11     guidelines are advisory in nature in that they are




 12    recommended procedures for state and local government.




 13                   Ws plan to use the guideline mechanism




 14     as  a back-up to support the criteria for open dumps




 15    and sanitary landfills, to get guidance to local,state




 16    government on ways they can achieve the criteria by




 17    various practices:  design, operating, and construction]




 18     practices.    And these  guidelines are mandatory on




 19    the federal government ju^t like they were under the




 20     old law.




 21                   The law says that within twenty-four




 22     months of its enactment the Administrator should issue




 23     guidelines that spring from the original guidelines    I




 24     which include levels of performance and levels of




25     control.   So we must now include in there definitive

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                                                             62
1    information and  guidance on a lot of other aspects:


2    protect ground and surface waters, protect public


3    health and environment, meeting the requirements of  the


4    Clean Air Act.


5                  It is interesting that under the Clean


6    Air Act, when they scrub down an air emission, a lot  of


7    times they generate waste.  There  is no mechanism


8    within the Clean Air Act unless for some  reason  the


9    waste that was within that sludge  could be re-entrained

                                                      ,£?
10    once it went out on the disposal site, to guaranty


11    that, that sludge out of that scrubber would be  dispose|d


12    of properly.

                                        .
13                  Now, of course, -Hocjia will  assure  that  it


14    is disposed of properly because that is a solid  waste


15    now, even though it is liquid.


16                  We must recognize the Federal Water


17    Pollution Control Act and those provisions and deal


18    with the sludges that come out of  those acts.  And


19    again, putting it on the land and  entering  it  into the


20    environment through improper land  disposal  sites or


21    other practices.


22                  And then the guidelines have  to  consider


23    the public health aspect, the aesthetic aspects  of


24    land disposal practices.


25                  Now in Section 1008  there  is  a  little  bit

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                                                              63
 1
      of  confusion.   1003 talks about issuing criteria for
 2    open  dumps.   And they do the same thing over in



      Subtitle  D.   They effect the same provisions.  So it



 4    really isn't,  as far as we interpret the law, much of



      a  problem for us.



 6                  Now two guidelines we plan to issue, they



 7    are on the books right now,  funded by the law and



 8    funded by our program, is to take the existing land


 o

      disposal  guidelines which were issued in '74 and which



 10    at that time were mandatory on the feds and advisory



      to state  and local governments,  and revise these
 ,,
 '*    guidelines  keeping them consistent with fteera and to




 13    include  other information that we now have and did not




      have  before such as bail fills,  shredder fills, some




      leachate collection and treatment techniques and




      technology.




 17                  And the other guideline that we will



 18
      issue — this one will be issued by the end of  '78 --



 19
      the end  --  it should be out at the same time the


 nn

      criteria are which is the end of this fiscal year.




                    And the one for the disposal of sludges




 2    will  be  issued the year after that.  So these are the




      two guidelines that are on the books now to develop as


 24
      related  to  the land disposal provisions of the law.


25
                    Okay.  That covers the land disposal

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                                                             64






 '    provisions and I will entertain questions now  on  this.



 2                  Yes.




 3                  MR. LEDVINA:  I am Joe Ledvina of Union



 4           Carbide.  There are several references  in  here



 5           to sanitary landfills and otherwise —  and



 6           things that are otherwise disposed of in an




 7           environmentally sound manner.  What do  you think



            of land farms?




 9                  MR. HICKMAN: Well, we have had a lot  of



10           discussion in the Agency about the use  of  a



11           waste material in a beneficial manner on the lanld




12          Is it actually disposal? or  is that something els;?



13           is that resource conservation or whatever.



                   And we haven't really made up — made any
15
            judgment.  We don't even know what  that  provisioi
            of the law means as  far as  the wording  and



            other acceptable environmental management.



18                  We would  interpret  that  in  the line  of



"           if it is within  our  criteria  of  a  sanitary



20           landfill.  There are classes  of  sanitary landfil|ls




            depending upon the waste stream.



                   And based on  certain designs  —  site



            selection, design, operating, and  construction



            procedures that, that  land  disposal  practice


25
            could indeed  be  satisfactory.   Because  we can

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                                                             .65





 1           see us writing because  of  some wording  in the




 2           law about classes of sanitary landfills  writing




 3           a variety of disposal criteria for  any  type  of




 4           waste and any type of practice.




 5                  If you are asking what I  think about




 6           land farming, you are talking about putting




 7           sludges on the land.  There  is a  lot of  debate




 8           in the Agency about that.   If that  land  could




 9           be used afterward for useful purposes as opposed




10           to having that land lie fallow because  of




11           heavy metals or whatever might be in there,




12           those are two different issues.   And the Agency




13           has got some guidance out  on it,  on sludges  on




14           the land right now.




15                  And of course we are  going to take that




16           guidance and expand it  to  include what  information




17           that we have now.




!8                  MR. liSDVINA:  wnat  about  disposal wells?




19                  MR. HICKMAN:  Deep  well  injection?




20                  MR. LEDVINA:  Yes,




21                  MR. HICKMAN:  Well, deep  well injection




22           is covered right now under the j.afe _water _drinki|ig




23           ^ct. And — by definition  it is  covered by that




24           now.  The _s_tate governments  that are in deep




25           well injection have a good number of regulations

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                                                               66
            and controls  too.




 2                  We  don't  see an objection.  It is not




 3          considered in our  thinking so far in studying




            the design and implementation of this law  as an




 5          area  that  we  have  cognizance or authority  over




 6          under  «gljr^ since  it is covered under other




 ^          authorities.   rtnd  we don't intend to duplicate




 8          what  is being done under the safe drinking water




 '          act which  is  just  now also being implemented




            It's  about two years in implementation.




                    Do  you want to respond to that?




'2                  MR. SANJOUR:  I want to say a word  about




13          land  farming  of  hazardous waste.  If we  are




14          talking about land farming of hazardous  waste




            then  land  farms  will come under  the same




16          provisions as any other disposal facility.  They




17          will  have  to  have  permits.  They will have to




18          meet  these standards.  And they  would apply




            to pollution  getting  into the environment




20                  For example, if it gets  into ground water




21          then  land  farming has to meet that.




22                  MR. HICKMaN:   We have a  good deal of




23          discussion of sewer sludge that  is  put  on  the




24          land, whether that is disposal  or not.




25                  MR. SANJOUR:   Well,  in Texas when they

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                                                                67
 ]           talk about  land farming they are talking about




 2           petroleum waste.




 3                  MR.  HICKMAN:   They are talking about




 4           petroleum waste.   I  know they do that down on




 5           the Gulf.   That is not the practice --  they  do




 j           it  in  a  lot of  places outside of this — you




 7           know,  the petroleum  industry.  And we really




 g           haven't  been able yet to get -- we haven't made




 9           a call on whether it is disposal or whether  it




10           is  --  there has bean a lot of contention in  the




11           Agency on -- thoughts on that right now.




12                  Do you have — whot is your opinion?  Do




13           you consider it disposal or do you consider  it




14           something else?




15                  MR.  LEDVINA:   It is disposal.




16                  MR.  HICKMAN:   Well, if it is disposal it




17           will have to meet -- some of the requirements,




18           either the  hazardous waste part or the  land




19           disposal part.




20                  MR.  LEDVINA:   I am not questioning  that.




21                  MR.  HICKMAN:   YeJh.




22                  MS.  UEDVINA:   I urn just questioning




23           whether  you recognize that.




24                  MR.  HICKMAN:   I rfould think that if you




25           do  it  in Keeping with tha criteria that will be

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                                                              68




 1            issued  for  land  disposal practices which the




 2            state will  try  to make judgments on with you




 3            in the  inventory and in the long term control




 4            of that site  then we should be able to — we




 5            recognize what  you are saying and the problem.




 6            And  it  is something that we are trying to factor




 7            in how  we design the criteria.




 8                   Yes,  sir.




 9                   Do you feel -- just as a feedback on the




10            procedure of  how we are running these meetings,




11            do you  feel hampered by having to go to the




12            microphone  and  state your name, rank, and serial




13            number?  Is that a hindrance on any of you? do




14            you  feel




IS                   MR.  EVANS:  Charles Evans, with DuPont.




16            You  mentioned,  I believe, a minute ago, and I




17            am asking for clarification in this part, that




18            land disposal of non-hazardous wastes, you nor




19            the  statesj under this law, do not necessarily




20            have jurisdiction or enforcement authority.   I




21            believe that is a better word.  Is that  right?




22                   MR.  HICKMAN:  What  I told yoa was  — you




23            are  not quoting me  right.  I want  the  record  to




24            be  perfectly clear.  The law  is designed  to put




25            the  states  in the saddle on running  solid waste

-------
                                                               69
 1           management programs.   Okay?  And it isn't  first




 2           the  feds  and then we  pass it on to the states.




 3           That is  what has been,  I guess, sort of built




 4           into the  water act.   The design is:




 5                   The _s,tates assume the hazardous waste




 6           portion.   nnd if they don't assume that then the




 7           feds have to take over certain provisions  of tha




 8           subtitle  which is Subtitle C: permitting of




 9           storage  and  treatment facilities, manifest




'0           system connected with disposal.  It does not




            provide  the  same authority for land disposal




12           provisions of non-hazardous wastes.  That  is a




'3           state function.




                   And it is designed very carefully,  as I




'5           tried to explain, both through financial




            incentives of the law and the impact of suits




            on  those  sites that would fall within  the




            criteria  of  an open dump to stimulate  a very




"           strong,  active state  and local government




20           involvement  in picking up provisions of Subtitle




2'                   The feds do not have the regulatory




            provisions authority for non-hazardous waste




 '           land disposal sites under this law.




                    MR. £\MNS :  Did I really understand you




            to  say then  the if the state doesn't play  then

-------
                                                                70
 1            there will be no program?




 2                   MR. HICKMAN:  That  is  the  size of it.




 3                   MR. EVANS:  Well, from your  previous




 4            discussion, did you say  though that citizens --




 5            that you could oring suit  under those provisions?




 d                   MR. HICKMaN:  You can  bring  suit — if he




 7            believed that the site was  not meeting the




 8            requirements, the criteria,  for a sanitary




 9            landfill, there is a mechanism in the citizen




10            suit provisions which I mentioned earlier that




11            he can file in the court system against any




12            operator who he believes is  in violation of the




13            guidelines, regulations, and  standards issued




14            under this law.




IS                   MR. EVANS:  That  clears it up.  Thank you).




16                   MR. BURK:  I am John  Burk, Texas




17            Department of Health Resources.  Our definition




18            of a sanitary landfill is  a  landfill which




19            exercises compaction and coverage of solid




20            waste that is received and it requires a landfiljl




21            for a population of five thousand or more.




22                   And for smaller landfills, serving a




23            lesser population we have  a  legal way they don't




24            have to—provide for daily  compaction and




25            coverage of solid waste  except under special

-------
 '            conditions.   Do you offer the opportunity for




 2           special  leeway here in your regulations for a




             sanitary landfill serving smaller areas or




             smaller  populations to give preferential




             treatment?




                   MR. HICKKHN:  Well, X don't think that




             we  are going to try and do it that way.  I am




             not really sure how we are going to do  it yet


 Q

             because  we haven't decided and that is  why we




 10           are holding these meetings.




 "                  But we are going to try to write criteria
 12
             from an environmental and health standpoint as
 '           to -- that one can go and measure against  to




             make judgments as they go along whether  that




 '•*           site for the amount of waste, for the type  of




             waste that site is receiving falls within  those




             criteria or does not fall within those criteria.



 IS
                    And I would think that common sense  is



 19
             going to have to prevail  -- because we  are




             trying -- we have to write something that  is




             going to work in Maine as well as out there in



 22
             Odessa and as well it is going to work up  in




 23           Seattle.




                    And you are already in trouble when  you



25
             try to do that because of rainfall and the  soils

-------
                                                             7?
 1           and  the  geological  conditions are so different.




 2                  So  we  are  going to try to write the




 3           criteria and  regulations so that -- the state




 4           government is who we  want to run the inventory.




 5           We want  them  to do  the inventory.  Not the feds.




 j           Because  you are the ones who have got to




 7           implement  the program anyway.  We will help




 8           finance  it.




 9                  You should be  able to make the judgment




10           on that  criteria, based on that criteria, as to




11           whether  or not that site is an open dump or a




12           sanitary landfill.   That is what we are going




13           to try to  do, you know.




14                  MR. EVANS:  Okay.




15                  MR. HICKMAN:  Yes, sir.




16                  MR. HUSTON:   I am Bob Huston, with




17           Esprey,  Huston & Associates.  You mentioned




18           awhile ago that scrubber sludge would now be




19           clearly  considered  a solid waste under this Act.




20                   Does tha t also hold for bottom ash or




21           fly  ash  from electric generating facilities?




22                  And then secondly, do you have any




23           general  comments about  the impact of  this Act




24           on  surface mining operations?




25                   MR.HICKMAN:   Okay.  First question:

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                                                              73
 ]           Whether  or  not  bottom ash or clinkers or whateve




 2           fall  --  out of  a  power plant would fall within




 3           the definition.




 4                  If  it is  a solid waste or semi-solid --




 5           let me read you  the  definition.




 6                  MR.  SANJOUR:   The answer  is yes.




 7                  MR.  HICKMAN:   The answer  is yes but I




 8           don't think one  should just answer yes.  Because




 9           this  thing  is not just all black and white,




10           you know.   Common sense has got  to prevail.




11                  The  term  solid waste means any garbage,




12           refuse,  sludge  from  a waste treatment plant,




13           water supply treatment plant, or air pollution




14           control  facility and other discarded material,




15           including  solid,  liquid, semi-solid, or containe|d




16           gaseous  material  -  I am not quite sure what




17           that  is  -  resulting  from industrial, commercial,




18           mining,  and agricultural operations, and from




19           community activities, but does not include solid




20           or dissolved material in domestic sewage, or




21           solid or dissolved materials in  irrigation return




22           flows or industrial  discharges which are point




23           sources^subject  to permits under FWPCA or a




24           source,  special  nuclear, or by-product material




25           as defined  by the Atomic Energy  Act.

-------
                                                             74
                   So the answer  is  yes,  if  it falls under



            the definition of  solid  waste.



                   And the other  was on:    What does this



            mean to surface mining?



                   Well,  there  is another provision of the



            law that we are supposed to do a mining -- a



            study on mining, you  know.   And  what this means



            to the solid  waste  management field.




 '                  What we are  asking the j_tates right now
10
11
is in theory spoil from a mining  operation  would



fall under this definition of  solid waste and
            would have  to be,  according to that,  dealt with




13           in some way if  we  are  going to try to put a big




            umbrella  over everything  all at once.




                   But  recognizing that the intent of the




            law  is to deal  with those forces that represent




            the  major environmental health threats it gives


10

            some guidance that we  should prioritize what we




19           do,  some  things are more  important than others.




                   The  law  does that  also because of the



21
            control of  hazardous waste.  And we are asking




            the  sjtates  right now,  you know, when we do this



23
            inventory,  we design the  inventory, what do you



24
            think we  should cover in  the inventory?  Do you




            think we  should phase it?  Should sometime you.

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                                                                75



  ]           as  a  state,  think you want to cover mining




  2           materials,  mining operations, if you think you




  3           want  to include that in the inventory, you probal




  4           have  a  sound reason for that because it must




  5           represent some health or environment threat, we




  6           will  probably go along with the state government




  7           in  wanting  to do that,




  8                  I don't think we are going to demand that




  9           the first time around, that we are going to take




 10           on  the  mining industry and mining waste.  Becaus




 11           there is other waste rightnow that represents




 12           strong  interest to us to try to get the first




 13           phase of this law implemented.
                    Eventually, some day, I would assume  that




 15           the  mining studies tell us there is a big problem




 16           out  there  we will have to do something about  it.




 17                  But we are asking the states what they




             think they want to do about it right now.  That




 "           is  the first steps we are going  to do.  It is




 20           not  factored into the first phase of the invento




 21           at  the moment.




 22                  Other questions?  Well, thank you very




 23           much.




 24                  MR. LOZANO:  Our next presentation is  on




25           resource conservation and recovery and overall
if

-------
            technical assistance will  oe  made  oy Tom



            Canfield, Chief of  the Waste  Production Branch,



            Office of Solid Waste, Washington.



                   MR. CANFIELD:  Before  I  go  into the slide



     I want to make a couple of comments.   We  spent this



     morning talking about the  Resource Conservation and



     Recovery Act.  And yet we  haven't talked  about resource



     conservation and recovery.  We  have  talked about



     hazardous waste and land disposal.   And after all, the



     name of the Act is the Resource Conservation and
11    Recovs-ry Act,



12
                   We feel  that,  that  is  the  long term goal
 •*    that Congress is trying  to wrestle  with,  is to increase



     resource conservation and recovery.   And  we think it



'^    is going to be an eventual reault  of this Act anyway.



                   But I do want  to  make  sure  that everybody



     is aware that this is an  important  part of this Act


ift
     even though it comes last on our  program,or at least



     toward the end of our program.



2"                  A couple of points  I  do want to make



21    before we go on to the slides:  First is  we don't feel



     that resource conservation and  recovery will ever


23
     replace the need for land disposal.



                   For instance,  our studies show that over


25
     the next decade the waste destined  for land will increase
                                                               76

-------
                                                             77
     even  under  our  most optimistic estimations of the rate



     of  resource recovery starts.


 M

 15                 But we do feel  that resource conservation



     and recovery can  have a significant impact on an



 '   individual  local  area.



                   Resource recovery, for example, can



     divert a  significant portion  of waste from land disposal



     and thus  lessen the problems  associated with land



     disposal.



                   Resource conservation and recovery are



     increasing.  The  pace of new  plants and systems that



 12   are being implemented in the  1970' s is far faster than



     the rate  in the 1960's.  We continue to document more



     and more  interest by local communities and serious



     plans for resource recovery systems.



                    rfe  think just natural forces will mean



     that  resource conservation and recovery will increase.


 18
     We  see increasing scarcity for some materials,


 1 9
     increasing  scarcity for some  forms of fuel, and just



 20   the general difficulty in finding land for disposal



     will  tend to increase resource recovery over a time.



                    But we do feel  that this Act will increase



     the pace  of resource recovery and the major way is by



     forcing proper  use of land for disposal.  we feel this


25
     is  going  to rule  out the cheap option, the unacceptable

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                                                               78




 1   practice and  tend  to  drive  up the cost of disposal of




 2   waste, land disposal  of  waste.   This will make the




 3   economics  of  resource recovery  more attractive to




 4   communities.




 5                  In general we think this Act reinforces




 5   the  things EPA has already  been doing in resource




 7   conservation  ana recovery.




 8                  One  of  the major  things that we do is to




 9   evaluate resource  recovery  systems.   These are both




 10   large  scale plants for large urban areas and low




 11    technology approaches such  as separation of wastes at




 12    the  home with separate collection and materials recover^.




 13                   A second thing that we do is to give aid




 14    to states  and local governments to try to overcome the




 15    non-technical, non-economic barriers to recovery.   An




 16    example  is to help a  community to prepareKa request for




 17    a proposal for a  resource recovery facility to help




 18    a community  to obtain outside financing for resource




 19    recovery.




 20                   And  a third thing that we do is to do




 21    conduct  policy studies on ways to reduce waste at  the




 22    point  of generation.




 23             '      Okay.  I would like to go  into  some




 24    slides and run through sections of  the Act that do




25    deal with  resource conservation and recovery.

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                                                               79





  1                  The point of the first slide  is  to  say




  2    that resource conservation and recovery  is  spread




  3    throughout the rict.  The other speakers  have talked




  4    about nice,  neat subtitles that address  hazardous




  5    waste and land disposal.




  6                  In this Act resource conservation and




  7    recovery cut across a number of sections.    I will  go




  8    through most of these sections very quickly.   The only




  9    two that I will not go through is Section 1008 which




 10    allows guidelines for a wide range of practices including




 11    resource conservation and recovery and the  fact that




 12    those guidelines under Section 6004 must be complied




 '3    with by other federal agencies.




 14                  The first major section that  deals  with




 15    resource conservation and recovery is Section  2003.




 '6    This section is broader than just that topic though.




 17    xt does cut across all of solid waste management.  It




 18    mentions that EPA must be aole to provide for  aid for




 "    all of solid waste management.




 20                  The aid is not meant to be_federal




 2'    officials working with local communities but is to be




 22    a  framework of federal officials, state  officials,




 23    local officials, consultants, various people working




 24    together to solve a specific problem.  It is EPA's




25    charge to put together that framework.

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                                                             80
                   The Act focuses -- Congress  focused on




     this s€'Ction, highlighting  its  importance  by mandating




     that twenty per cent of  the general  appropriation to




 4    this Act roust be used for this  kind  of  assistance.




 5                  We have talked a  little  bit  about




     Subtitle D which is the  Section 4000 series.  And we




 '    will talk about them some more.  But I  do  want to




     highlight a couple of things.


 g

                   EPA must give guidance to states to




     consider resource recovery, resource conservation and




11    guidance that states must do some  thinking about




     markets for secondary materials.




                   One thing  that the  state  plans must




     provide, they must provide  for  the elimination of laws




     or rules that prevent local communities having long




     term contracts  to supply wastes to a resource recovery




17    facility.



18
                   Section 4008  which  we  will go over  in



19
     some detail later, I just want  to point out that  this




     does allow grants to public agencies for implemention




     to lead to the  planning  --  all  of the steps leading



22
     up to  construction.  Some  of  the  things that are




     mentioned are  resource  recovery,  resource conservation



24
     and other specific topics  too.  But  this in an implementa


25

     grant  program  allowed  for  under this section.
ion

-------
                                                               ei
                    Section 6002 requires EPA to set



      guidelines on recommended practices to implement certai



 3    federal procurement processes.  Within two yoars



      procuring agencies of the ^federal government must



      procure products with the highest per cent of recycled



 6    materials as practical.



 7                  This applies to purchases individually
 8
12
      of  ten thousand dollars or in total ten thousand
 0

      dollars  a  year.




                    Second, all federal users of fossil  fuel




 11    must use refuse-derived fuel or materials recovered
      from solid wastes in those boilers to the maximum  per
13     cent  practical.




                    Finally, contracting officers  for  the




15     federal  government must certify — must set  up




      procedures that  sellers or vendors to the federal




      government must  certify and identify the amount  of



18
      recycled material in the products they are selling  to



19
      the government.




                    This section has fairly small  impact



21
      because  the federal government purchases are  relatively



22
      small.   But it does have impact on states and local



23
      governments and  even perhaps large companies  or  other




      organizations to follow these procurement practices.




                    Section 8002 requires eleven special

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                                                              82



     studies.  Seven of these are  two-year  studies  that are



     listed on this slide.



                   I think a gentleman  raised  a  question



     about mining waste and Lanny  Hickman pointed  out that



     we do have  to do a major mining-waste  study in a two-



     year period.
 o


                   Four of the  studies  under  this  section



     are three years — have a  three-year time deadline.
 0


 .    These four  studies are listed on  this  slide.



1Q                  One of the eleven  that we  feel  is the



     most imporant is a study listed as a resource



     conservation committee.  This is  separate cabinet-level



     committee made up -- chaired  by  the Administrator of



     EPA with heads of six other agencies.



                   This committee  must  submit  a  final report



.,    to Congress  in two years and  interim  reports  every six



,,    months.  This is to oe a comprehensive study  on ways



18    to encourage resource conservation and recovery.



..                  Some of the  things  that  are mentioned in



2Q    the Act specifically or some  of  the things  that will



21    undoubtedly oe studies are listed  on  this slide.



22                  First Congress  asks  this committee to



23    look at the effect of existing public  policies on



24    resource conservation and  recovery.  Some of  the



25    things that would be looked at would  be  depletion

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                                                              83
 1    allowances  for  virgin material,  certain capital gains




 2    treatment for virgin material,  ask the committee to




 3    look at  subsidies  and taxes,  bounties or deposits to




 4    increase resource  conservation  and recovery.  Some of




 5    them,  the more  debated topics that have been discussed




 6    are listed  here:   a subsidy that gives money or tax




 7    credit for  each additional ton  of recycled material,




 8    a  tax  credit or a  subsidy for new investments in




 9    equipment to recycle material.   And one that is




10    specifically called in the Act  is a detailed study of




11    charges  on  products to reflect  waste management costs




12    to internalize  those costs to producers of products.




13                  Finally, a third  area is individual




14    product-by-product regulation to increase resource




15    conservation and recovery.




16                  Finally there are a series of sections




17    that discuss evaluations and demonstrations of resource




18    recovery facilities.  This is very similar to our




19    present  —  or the  old legislation.  The most significant




20    difference  is that the old legislation allowed grants




21    for demonstrations only to public agencies.




22                   This legislation allows contracts to




23    private  agencies as well as grants to public agencies




24    for a  demonstration of recovery facilities.




25                   These slides conclude the sections  in

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                                                              84
 1    the Act that address resource conservation  and  recovery




 2    So if you have any questions or comments  that you  would




 3    like 1:o make, now is the time.




 4                  MR. MALLET:   I am Jim Mallet of  the




 5           Texas Agricultural Extension Service.  Would




 $           you restate the provision for insuring or not




 7           insuring long term contracting  in  the early




 8           part of your discussion, please.   I  wasn't




 9           entirely clear on that part.




10                  MR. CANFIELDi  Okay.   It  is  in the




11           section that is cited.   I am just  paraphrasing.




12           It basically says that state plans must  have in




13           them that there is no restriction  on communities




14           having long term contracts  to deliver solid




15           wastes to a facility for resource  recovery.




16                  The problem is that  in some states  in




17           some local areas there are  restrictions  on




18           bidding and procurement  practices  that  do  not




19           allow a community to enter  into a  long  term




20           agreement with a resource  recovery facility.




21           This  is intended to eliminate  that constraint.




22                  MR. DRINKWATER:   Al  Drinkwater, Arkansas




23           Department of Pollution  Control.   Where  the




24           mechanism of an authority  is available  for a




25           local government  to  set  up and  use long term

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                                                              85
 1            contracts  with an intermediary between  themselve




 2            and  the  solid waste resource recovery facility,




 3            would thia be acceptable within a state plan




 4            although the law has to be altered so that  the




 5            local government would have to be able  to go




 $            directly to contract with these resource




 7            recovery facilities?




 8                  MR. CANFIELD: I would have to reread that




 9            section in  detail.  But the point is, if it  is




10            not  a constraint I think, the state plan probably




11            could provide -- the fact that it is not a




12            constraint -- the state law is there is no  law




13            that is  a  restraint with a community engaging




14            in long  term contracts.  Since it is not a




15            constraint the state plan has met the intent of




16            the  law.




17                  This might be up to some legal interpreta




18            of the detailed language in that section.




19            That's a  good question.




20                  KA. SHORTT:  Charles Shortt, FEA.  You




21            had  some  slides on the screen there, some




22            aspects  of Section 6002.  You mentioned somethin




23            about the  use of -- highest use of fossil fuel




24            -- refuse.  Would you illuminate a little on




25            what that  section is going to represent in
tion

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                                                              86
 1           these programs?




 2                  MR. CANFIELDs   Well,  EPA has to write a




 3           guideline under  that  section to help federal




 4           agencies  implement  the requirement.  The




 5           requirement  is  that within two years all users




 6           of  fossil fuel must use refuse-derived fuel to




 7           the maximum  extent  practical.




 8                  I  think we  are going  to have to wrestle




 '           with what "maximum  extent practical" means with




10           the technological  limits and what the impacts




11           on  boilers are.




!2                  Thie  is  a significant departure from the




'3           old legislation.  We  do have guidelines on




'4           _federal  facilities  to encourage the use of




15           solid waste  as  an  energy source.




'6                  These guidelines were applicable only




17           to  certain classes  of generators of wastes.




'8           This  law switches  it  around and makes it




"           applicable  to all  users of fossil fuel.  That




20            is  a  significant difference and we do have  to




21           write a  guideline,  go through  the normal




22           development  process to write that:  input from




23            other  federal agencies such a  FEA and other




             people  to write that guideline.




25                  MR. MYRICK: .Mr. Myrick, The Process

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                                                             87




 1           Company,  Houston.   We  find  that a  lot of the




 2           basic  power  generating facilities  that can burn




 3           coal are  already  planning for RDF  usage.




 4                   What  we  are  finding  is that there is no




 5           leadership at  the  local level to provide that




 j           material  to  these  people and Lanny was very kind




 1           to  tell us all  about his training  programs.




 g                   And the  realities of life is that we




 9           still  find that the little  man, the little




 10           fellow up here,  he  is  a minority businessman.




 11           He  has got one  garbage truck.  He  owns the




 12           garbage facility.   It  is not the city's, not




 13           anyone else's.  And counties and other forms of




 14           government have  got to happen to bring the




 15           leadership to  the   RDF  processing part of the




 16           product.




 17                   What  mechanism  are we going to see come




 18           about  so  that  we  don't see  a backfire of the




 19           Union  Electric  type thing  in every city in the




 20           nation, sites  depending on  political decisions




 21           and things of  this  nature?




 22                   This  has got to come about in a very




 23           powerful  way.   It  has  got  to be public educatioi,




 24           public training.   We have  seen too many false




25           starts.  And what it all boils down to  is no

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 1           one is around who  says:   I  own that material.




 2           And it is  in critical  volume  for ready processing.




 3                  What kind of  leadership are  you going to




            bring in?  It has  got  to  be more than state




 5           leadership.




 6                  MR. CANFIELD:   I think you are right.  We




 7           do have to do public education and  I do believe




 8           that comments like that,  if you have specific




 9           things that we  can do  that  would be good that




10           we are made aware  of the  things that we must do.




11                  You mentioned that you don't think that




12           just state efforts --  I think we have looked at




13           who owns wastes and  who controls wastes in the




            local area and  in  the  state and find that it




15           varies from local  community to local community,




            state to state.




                   And one  of  the  things  that we can and




18           should be  doing  is to  give  guidance to states




1'           as to how  they  can try to overcome  these barrieis




20           which you  have  described  in their state planninc




21           process, change  in state  laws, hoping to make




22           uniform local laws such  that  those  problems as




23           to who controls wastes, who owns wastes are




24           reduced.




                   If  you have any great  ideas  we will be
                                                              88

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                                                             89



1            glad  to  hear  them, more  specific  things  that


2            can be done.


3                  MA,  CADDISi   Ray  Caddis  with the  Texas


4            Regional Planning Commission.   I  believe there


            have  been several demonstration projects on


6            resource recovery.


7                  Can you tell  me anything about the success


8            of  these projects with respect  tot   la it


'            successful from a technological process  standpoint?
                   And  also,  from the standpoint of economic
10


                    MK.  CANFIE'T:   Of course,  that is going


             to  vary from community to community.   Many


             systems --  fur  instance, source separation and


14           separate collection of newsprints is  applicable


             to  a  wide range of  communities.  Low, very


16           low technological constraints.   The constraint


             here  is the market  for or acceptance  for


18           newsprint.


19                  Certain  companies are offering a floor


20           price to communities  to buy all of the newsprint


21           they  can generate for them.


22                  So those systems are low technology and


23           are successful.  Of the large scale systems,

f\t
             water wall  incineration followed by steam


25           recovery is probably the technology that is the
                                                            8?

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                                                              90
 1           furtherest along.




 2                   In certain  parts  of the country it is




 3           economically  feasible  and economically attractive




 4           The  use  of refuse-derived fuel is not so far




 5           along  technologically.   Economically it is




 6           attractive in certain  areas but these are




 7           generally large  urban  areas.




 8                   MR. GADDIS:  Do you have any estimation




 9           as to  what the minimum population is to support




'0           a resource recovery type of facility where you




11           are  taking municipal solid waste and running it




12           through a resource recovery facility?




13                   MR. CANFIELD:  In terms of — other than




'4           separate collection of say newsprint and




15           separate collection of materials which is




16           applicable to very small communities -- w^ll,




I7           I think there are  a number of factors.  We do




I8           have guides  and  guidances to lead one to a




1'           decision on  whether it is economic or not.




20                   That  is going to include what your




2'           land disposal tipping fee is, your transportati<




22           systems to  the land disposal site, where you  an




23           going to locate  your resource recovery facility




24           the  markets  you  are going to find for the




            products,  other  resource  recovery.

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                                                              91





 1                   MR.  3ADDIS:   I am just looking  for a




 2            ball park figure as to what type of population




 3            in numbers  is required to make it economic  to




 4            market,  or  to run a resource recovery  facility.




 5                   In other words, not separating  out




 $            newspapers  at the source but where you are




 7            picking up  garbage  in a typical municipal




 8            operation.   You are hauling it to a landfill




 9            now.




10                   MR.  CANFIELD:  I don't think I  can even




11            quote you one.  Ames, Iowa,is the smallest.   I




12            can't remember the  population of Ames, Iowa.




13            Anything under a hundred thousand people.




14                   MR.  HICKMAN:  I think it is in  terms of




15            tons per day processing.




16                   MR.  3ADDIS:  Tons per day would  be  fine




17            if you have a figure.




18                   MR.  HICKMAN: Ames. I think, is  operating




19            under a  hundred tons a day.




20                   MR.  CANFIELD:  Under a hundred  tons  a




21            day.




22                   MR.  HICKMAN:  They are operating at  about




23            thirty or forty per cent of capacity,  too.




24                   MR.  CANFIELDj  And they are not economica|l,




25            They are expensive.  There is no rule  of  thumb.

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                                                              92
 1                  MR. HICKMAN:   I  think  there  is  a  real



 2           sense of danger in trying  to  answer that question



            because it is dependent on so many  factors and



            there is no such thing  as  a rule  of thumb.



 5                  MR. CANFIELD:  If I  may make  a comment,



            we specifically got a lot  of  information and we



 7           have a very good eight-part guide that leads



 8           one through all of the  steps  that one  must


 g
            consider to evaluate  what  kind of resource



10           recovery system you should have or  whether it



11           even makes sense.



'2                  Are there any  other questions?  or



            comments ?



14                  MS. HKADRICK:  Lucinda Headrick with the



15           League of Women Voters.
16
                    Back  to  that  source  separation, perhaps
            you can clarify  the  success of it.  What about a


18
            community which  tries  source separation like


1Q
            the newspapers and  so  forth and then you have



20
            your  cost fluctuate  up and  down and drive them



21           out of  the  market?



22                  MR.  CANFIELD:  The key to the operation


23
            is to obtain  a  floor price or prices for the



            newsprint before you are going to collect it.



            Andl there are companies that will offer a floor

-------
                                                               93
 1            price,  guaranteed floor price for the  recovery




 2            of newsprint.   And from that floor price  the




 3            community can  work back and find out whether  it




 4            is going to be economic or not.  But typically




 5            newsprint prices do fluctuate and if you  don't




 6            have  the markets lined up, communities can  get




 7            in trouole for the extra cost of collecting




 8            something that has no value or very low value.




 9                   Okay?




 10                   MR. LOZANO:  Thank you, Tom.  The  last




 11            presentation is Mr. Herbert Crowe who  will  talk




 12            to us about state programs.




 13                   MR. CROWE:  Everything we have  been




 14     listening to this morning has been impacting, or




 15     directed, to one of these real important areas.  And




 16     I  think the  reason that this topic is last is that it




 17     tends  to bring everything into focus.




 18                   By this I mean the ^tate program itself




 19     is  probably  the key area in this Act.  It is  the key




 20     area because I think  it tends to bring about  the effort




 21     of  the feds  and the states.




 22                   in the  past there has been a lot of  talk




 23     about  f_ederal-s_tate partnership and this kind of thing.




 24     This Act almost demands it.  So I think from  that  point




25     of  view, that we are  out there trying to find a  way

-------
 1    to m sh things.  And  the  state  program is going to be
                               ^

 2    the key in this.  But  it  is  still  going to require EPA


 3    devising the various  tools and  getting them into the


     states so that we can  still  mesh.


 5                  As we go through  these  slides what I


 6    would like to do is to probably only  talk about them in


 7    a general point of view.


                   The important  thing  I would like to leave


 '    with you is»  Start looking  between these lines to the


'0    point that we start seeing some of the real areas


     involved.  It is so glib  and so easy  to sayt  We have


12    got a regulation.  We  have got  a rule.  we have got a


13    guideline to do certain things


                   What does this mean  in  terms of manpower


15    and effort and really achieving the goals that are


16    spelled out in the Act itself.


'7                  So as we go through  this try to look


     between the lines and try to envision those kind of


1'    things that we have to be doing at the federal level


20    and at the state also.


21                  And again I would say that most of the


22    monies you see ht;re are nothing more  than what are


23    specified  in the Act.   That  this does not mean that


24    we will be getting the funds that  are specified  in the


25    Act.  So as we go on  and  the level of effort that we
                                                              94

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                                                             95
1    are going  to  be  facing  is  going to be dependent almost




2   entirely on  the funds  that  we  do get.




3                  we are  talking  acout the state program.




4    We are looking at Subtitle C.  We are looking at




5    Subtitle D.   But as you heard,  we are looking at




6    Subtitle A.   Wo  are looking at  Subtitle H as well.




7    we are looking at everything  in the Act that tends to




8    come  out as an impact upon the  local people.




9                  So the  RCRA  provides the ability for the




10    states to  assume the  dominant role in assuring the




1'    proper solid  waste management program.




'2                  RCRa  provides an  approach for local




13    government to meet  planning and implementation needs.




'4    The guidelines for  regional planning areas are to be




15    due out  in April of  '77.




'*                  The guidelines for state solid waste




17    management programs are due out in April of  '78.




'"    And in that what we are going to be able to do is to




1'    spell out  those  things  that we  feel that need to be




20    accomplished  and begin to  develop an emphasis point,




21    a  priority effort:  what comes first, what comes second




22                  Subtitle  C and Subtitle D.  What we are




2^    saying here is at least come up with the minimum




     requirement for  acceptable state program effort.  We




25    are also  looking at  shared state-local planning

-------
                                                             .96





 1    and implementation.   We  are  looking at dumps and




 2    sanitary fills as well.




 3                  And at  this  point  I  think we need to look




     again at the Act, knowing  that somewhere,by 1983 we




     are going  to oe able  to  do away  with all of the open




     dumps.




                   What  does  that mean  in terms of what we




     can start  doing now and  what steps do we need to reach-|-




     to actually reach the point  where  we will have the




     dumps cleaned up, wiped  out, and converted to a sanitaijy




11    fill  by 1983.




'2                  it means that  we are going to have to




     put a lot  of emphasis on designs and systems.  If we




     start looking at a  regional  approach, it is the only




15    way that you can get  good environmental management of




     solid wastes.   It  is  also the only way you can get a




     system that  is  responsible and is  also achievable from




 "    the point  of dollars  and cents-wise.




                   Something has  got to DC reasonably price




20    has got  to be set  up  so that the people can use it.




21    If  it doesn't, meet  the two criteria  then  it isn't goin




22    to  work.




23                  Again,  we are looking  at an enforcement




     mode.   When  do  you  start the enforcement?   What are




25    the  types  of  homework that you need  to do first?  There

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      is  a  time and a place for enforcement.  There  is  a




      time  and a place to get into it and start  laying  out




      some  efforts that you are going to have to exert  to




      make  everyone amenable so that when you do reach  that




 5    point all of your staff and all of your time  is not




 6    consumed in court.  It is going to be not  necessarily




      a  last ditch stand but you have to do so many  things




      first that enforcement is somewhat up the  road a  ways.




 '                  In som* states not too far.  In  some




 '"    states it is right there.  It is just a matter of getti




 11    the Act together, getting the people aware, get the




      training.  And do these other few steps and then  you




 13    are right into it.




                    Are you going to be able to  grant the




      contractual freedom that we have talked about  in  the




      past  here to allow the locals to set up a  long term




 '    arrangement to actually be aole to implement  some of




 18    these ideas.




 "                  And one thing else:  la it sanitary




      landfill or is it resource conservation?   It  is both.




      The sanitary landfill as a disposal means  is  going to




22    be  with us £or^a long time.  It is the only game  in




      town  for ultimate disposal.




                    And my crystal call tells me -  I am net



25
      sure  — how accurate it is or not - that we are not
                                                              97
ng

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                                                             98






 1    going to be aaLe  to  conserve  resources  or recycle




 2    every particle  of waste  stream.   There is got to be




 3    some that will  have  to  be  disposed of.




 4                  Now we are looking at probably the key




 5    to this whole thing:  the  assistance to the state and




 6    local government  section,  3011:  state hazardous waste




 7    programs, are  funded  to  be  authorized - and again I




 8    will emphasize  the word "authorized" - to be funded




 9    for FY'78-'79,  twenty-five million dollars each year.




10                  And again what  we  are going to be doing




11    is setting  up up  on  a formula basis - but we are also




12    going to be  looking  at  it from the standpoint of what




13    the problem  areas are.




14                  And again, key words:   twenty-five million




15    dollars each year authorized.




16                  Again, Section 4008, for the development




17    and implementation  of a state plan.  And again  those




18    magic words:  FY'78, thirty million authorized. FY'79,




19    forty authorized.




20                   it  is  going to be based upon a populatior




21    --. to states for  local and state  use.




22                  Section 4008(2) is  implementation of




23    solid waste management programs.  And again, we are




24    looking  at  an authorization  for FY'78-'79  of fifteen




25    million  dollars each year.   This  is  going  to be aimed,

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                                                               99
  1    for the most part, at planning,  feasibility  studies,




  2    consultations, surveys and studies,  those  types of




  3    things and an assessment of what  the  technology is and




  4    whether it is applicable to that  area.




  5                  We are going to have  to meet the  land




  $    disposal guidelines.  And moving  on,  we  see  that




  7    Section 4008(e) is geared to special  areas:   Those tha




  8    cannot logically fit into the system  that  is already




  9    designed, or already in operation,  or that is already




 10    on the drawing oo
-------
                                                              100
  '   rural areas.  And  we  are  looking  at towns of five




  2   thousand or less,  county  population of ten thousand or




  3   less, or less than twenty persons per square mile. And




     I know  of  four  or  five  counties  in our region that I




     think runs along about  one to two persons per square




  6   mile under that.   They  shouldn't  have any solid waste




  '   problems,  do you suppose?




  8                 One  of  the  ways that we have talked about




     getting rid of  that is  to give everyone an air mail




 10   package, stamped,  and they can put their waste in it




     and air mail it to Cuba,  or someplace els^.  That is




     not a very good idea  now.  Cuoa  is sort of coming back




 13   to th«  fold, I  guess.




 14                 MR.  SANJOUR:  What  about Panama?




 15                 MR.  CROWE:   Right.   So Section 4009 is




 16   again looking at the  ways to get  at the rural areas.




     And we  are looking at the assistance on the open



 18
     dumping restrictions.  vis are looking at trying to




     phase this in and  make  sure the  interface is neat and




 20   meshed  with the Clean Air Act and the FWPCA.



 21
                   And  we  are  looking at some of the



 22
     criteria for those areas  that there is no regional




     system  available now, no  existing available plant




     system  that is  going  to be available.  And we are looking



25
     at probably -•-  talking  about the  federal government

-------
                                                              101
 1   supporting seventy-five  per cent  of  the  cost  not




 2   including the actual disposal  site.




 3                 That's about  it.  But  again,  look at




 4   those kinds of  things and begin to  try  to look behind




 5   the scenes and  see what  kind  of action  we are going to




 6   have to be doing.  Because  everything  in this Act tends




 7   to point down to  the state  program  efforts.




 8                 I will be  glad  to entertain anything you




 9   have to say on  it.




 10                 Yes, Mr. Myrick?




 11                  MK. MYRICK:   You mentioned the  question o




 12         the regional planning criteria process  being




 13           developed  this April.




 14                  are the planning guidelines going to be




 15         mimicking COG districts? are  they going to  be




 16          mimicking  solid waste  planning areas?  are  they




 17          going  to be mimicking  some sort of grant areas




 18          that will  support recovery operations?




 19                 MR. CROWEs  The  criteria  is going to be




 20           reasonably broad, I  believe.   And it is going to




 21           give the governors  of  each state the opportunity




 22           to actually pick  a  region  that is based upon




 23           solid  waste problems.   It  may be able  to coincice




 24           with an  existing  COG 208  planning area or  those




25           kinds  of things.

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                                                             102
1                  But they are not going  to  be  obligated




2           to fall on that.  They can be  set up as  a




3           separate solid waste region.




A                  Anybody else?




5                  MS. BRENCKLE:  Mary Brenckle. with  Exxon




6           You mentioned in your slide  presentation that




7           the only game in town were resource  conservatior




8           and recovery or sanitary  landfill.   And  a




9           gentleman from Union Carbide asked a question if




10           EPA was considering land  farming.




11                  There is a great deal of difference




12           between a landfill and a  land  farm.  A landfill




13           requires that the waste be compacted and




14           completely covered.




15                  MR. CROWE: Right.




16                  MS. BRENCKLE:  A land farm depends  upon




17           the waste being mixed with  the soil  and exposed




18           to the air and sunlight in  order  to  allow




19           microbic deprivation.




20                  MR. CROWE:   Right.




21                  MS. BRENCKLE,:  Could  you clarify a littl




22           bit EPA's stand on  land farming?




23                  MR. CROWE:   Land farming,  we  are not




24           real  sure of yet.   There  hasn't been that much




25           work  done with  it  to  really identify it.  When

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                                                              103
 1           I said that a sanitary landfill was  the  only




 2           game in town I was looking at  the  Subtitle D




 3           area which is the normal  type  of solid waste




 4           that we have.




 5                  And in any process where we are  talking




 6           about recycling, incineration, or  anything of




 7           that matter is short term burn on  some gases,




 8           say.




 9                  we are looking at  a residual.  And the




 10           residuals from any process,  recycling or anything




 11           else, is going to go to a sanitary fill.




 12                  Now the land farming  I  gather  you are




 13           thinking about is oriented more toward  industrial




 14           wastes.




 15                  MS. BRENCKLE:  Not in the case of Odessa,




 16           sir.




 17                  MR. CROWE:  All right.  But we are




 18           talking about a research  project that has been




 19           done to see the feasibility  of mixing sewage




 20           sludge and shredded waste.




 21                   That is not a common  practice  yet.  And




 22            i think those kinds of things  are  going  to have




 23            to be considered when we  start developing the




 2*            guidelines for this.




25                   And in the same vein we are talking about

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                                                            104
            developing guidelines for  industrial  wastes,




 2           hazardous waste,  those kinds  of  things  that you




 3           are talking about are going to have to  be  taken




            into account as well.




                   But what I am  saying is that the sanitary




 6           landfill  is going to  be  the only game in town




 7           for a  long time as  the ultimate  disposal of




 8           household-type wastes.




 9                  MR. HICKMAN:   May I comment  on that?




                   MR. CROWE:   Yes.




11                  MR. HICKMAN:  I think we are  all  going




12           to have  to start  understanding that under the




13           new law  what you  say  about a  sanitary landfill




14           — I mean solid waste being compacted and




15           completely covered  daily,  that  is not the only




16           sanitary landfill that we  are going to be




17           talking  about  in  the  future.




 °                  There  is some  confusion about  this.




19           What  is  the definition  of  a  sanitary  landfill?




20           A sanitary landfill means  a  facility  for disposj
21
             of  solid wastes  which meets the criteria publis
22            under Section 4004.




23                   We  again determine the definition of




             disposal which means the placing of solid waste




25            oip the land,  in the land, through the land, or
ed

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                                                            105






 1            around  the  land.




 2                   The  definition of a solid waste isi a




 3            liquid,  solid,  and in between.




 4                   we are going to have to start to understand




 5            that in the future when we talk about sanitary




 6            landfills we are  talking about environmentally




 7            acceptable  land disposal practices for solid




 8            wastes.




 9                   MS.  BRENCKLE:  Okay. If that ia a definition




10            of  sanitary landfill  that would include land




11            farms.




12                   MR.  HICKMANj  It could, yes.




13                   MR.  CROWE:  We have just had white defined




14            as  any  of  the following or all of the above.




15                   Anybody else?




16                   MR.  GADDIS: Do you envision any areas




17            that would  not be designated for solid waste




IB            management?




"                   MR.  CROWEs  How do you mean that?  As




20            a solid waste --




2'                   MR.  GADDISs  In other words, would you




22            envision any areas within this Region VI that




23            would not be included in a designated solid




2*            waste management?




25                   MR.  CROWE:  No.  I think some of them

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                                                            106
 1           will probably  be  so  broad,  large,  that it may




 2           be  unwieldy, maybe the  costs,  too.   But I see




 3           everything  that we have in  the states now as




 4           falling  under  some regional approach.




 5                  Anybody else?




 6                  Let  me  turn you  back over to Ray.




 7                  MR.  LOZANO:   Thank you. Herb.  At this




 8           time let's  get into  the statements  that people




 9           would  like  to  make.




10                  I  have  eight  cards.   Let me  read them




'1           off to you  so  you will  know where  you stand.




12           These are in  the  order  of registration.




13                  A. V.  Kensey, Terry  Kassabaum, Mark




14           Handelraan,  Mrs.  Pearl  Wincorn, James A.




15           Bannerot, Don  Stence, Charles L. Robertson,




1*           and C. L. Jordan.




17                  If you  could, please keep the statement




1"           to  within five minutes  and  submit a written




19           comment  for the  record.




20                  A. V.  Kinsey. You are welcome to use




21           the podium  if  you have  notes.




22                  MR.  KINSEY:   I am going to pass on my




2^           comment.  Mine was  centered around the reason




24           for not  permitting a transporter of solid waste,




25                  I thought  that,  that should have been

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                                                          107
1           addressed.  And that somebody is going to have




2           to be liable for a spill in transporting a




3           toxic chemical from your plant.  Are you going




4           to be responsible for it or whether or not  the




5           municipality receiving it will be responsible.




6                  Nothing was given to that attention.




7                  MR. LOZANO:  Terry Kassabaum.




8                  MR. KASSABAUM:  Pass.




9                  MR. LOZANOi  Mark Handelman.




10                  MR. HANDELMANs  I am Mark Handelman.




11    This statement is presented on behalf of the Texas




12    State Chemical Council which is an association of




\3    seventy-two companies all having one or more plants  in




14    Texas.




'5                  These plants produce materials necessary




16    for the health and well-being of the State of Texas,




'7    the nation, and  the world.  Member companies employ




18    over sixty thousand Texans.




19                  We  in the chemical industry wish that




20    the laws of nature were such that we did not produce




21    any solid waste.  But  they aren't, and we do, so  we




22    are keenly interested  in the implementation  of the




23    Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976.




24                  The Texas Chemical Council has and  will




25    continue to support the safe disposal by reasonable

-------
                                                              loa
 1    means  of  all  solid  wastes.   Our  comments  are  offered


 2    to help better achieve  this  goal.


 3                  In developing  regulations  under  this


 4    Act  w« recommend that  these  guidelines be followed:


 5                  First, keep  them as  simple  and  direct


 6    as possible.  The vast  majority  of us who will be


 7    subject to  these regulations will  be cooperative  so


 8    that .Caster and more complete implementation  will be


 '    achieved  if they can be read and understood by those


'°    affected  without the need  for legal interpretation.


11                  Secondly, they should concentrate on


12    the  intent  of the law.   That is,  reasonable procedures


'3    to be  used  by solid waste  disposers to  insure safe


14    disposal.   This means  that administrative procedures


15    such as voluminous  record-keeping  requirements,


"    involved  mechanics  of  enforcement, et  cetera,  should b<


17    discouraged.

1A
                   Third,  they  should allow enough


19    flexibility to  cover methods that may  be  safe and


20    acceptable  in some  circumstances and in  some  parts of


     the  country but  not necessarily  in others.


22                  Fourth,  and  last,  don't  redo what has


     already been  done.   In that  connection,  several states


     have already  develped  workable plans and we urge the


25    EPA  to build  on  thesa.

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                                                            109
 1                  The revised Texas Water Quality Board




 2    regulations which became effective at the start of




 3    '76 would seem to meet the purposes and intent of the




 4    Resource Conservation and Recovery Act.  This is an




 5    operating program that is working well.  And we




 6    recommend it for your consideration.




 7                  If our recommendations are followed we




 8    would expect the resulting regulations to consider the




 9    following specifics:




10                  Deviations would be allowed for existing




11    installations which have or could demonstrate operation




12    meeting the objectives of the regulation.




13                  Permits would be issued for an indefinite




14    period, contingent on the continued acceptable




15    operations to prevent the needless expense both to




16    the private and public sector of periodic re-permitting




17    without specific need.




18                  Regulation of spills and discharges would




19    not duplicate those already existing or being planned




20    under other laws.




2?                  We urge that the following additional




22    comments be considered in developing regulations to




23    implement the Act:




24                  An objective of the Act as stated in




25    Section 1003 is: Prohibiting future open dumping on

-------
                                                            no
 1    the land and requiring the conversion of existing open




 2    dumps to facilities which do not pose a danger to the




 3    environment or to health.




 4                  Under Section 1004, quote, the term open




 5    dump means a site for the disposal of solid waste which




 6    is not a sanitary landfill within the meaning of




 7    Section 4004.  Close quote.




 8                  we would hope the criteria to be




 9    developed for sanitary landfills under Section 4004




     will include the environmentally sound containments




     provided by waste ponds, drying beds, tailing areas,




     and similar installations which are essential for the




'3    operations of many industrial plants throughout the




     country.




15                  These  installations meet the requirement




     of a sanitary landfill in Section 4004 of, quotes




                   No reasonable probaoility of adverse




18    effects on health or the environment from disposal  of




19    solid waste at such  facility.




                   These  proven surface containments are




21    not and should in no circumstance be confused with




22    open dumps .




23                  With proper  facilities and operating




24    procedures,  industrial solid  waste can be safely
25
      disposed of  either  on-site  or  off-site.   We  would like
to

-------
  '   emphasize  certain  desirable  aspects  of  industrial




  2   waste  containment  on  plant property  controlled  by  the



  3   producer of  the  waste.



  4                  By the  very nature  of  on-site  disposal



  5   operations,  the  following advantages generally  exist:



  6                  Controlled transport  to the  disposal site



  7   by  the  generator of the waste  who is familiar with the



  8   safeguards necessary  for the proper  disposal of these




  9   wastes.



 10                  Financial responsibility  of  the disposal



 11   site operator.




 12                  Perpetual care of  the  disposal facility.



 13                  Four, readily  available records containing



     identification and quantities  of  disposed  material.




 15                  Five, control  against  synergistic effect:



     of  mixed chemicals.



                    Six, maximum pretreatment of wastes


 18
     before  disposal.


 19
                    Seven,  stockpiling  of  wastes for



     potential  future reclamation.


21
                    Eight,  maximum impoundment security




     against loss into  the environment.



                    Nine, recovery and  re-use of resources


24
     where  economically feasible.




                    And  ten,  security  measures discourage

-------
                                                             112
 1    and severely limit public access  to  disposal  sites.




 2                  we would hope that  guidelines to  be




 3    promulgated by EPA will consider  these  obvious  benefits




     of on-site disposal and not discourage  this type  of




     operation, referring  in that  to hazardous waste.




                   In Section 1003 of  the Act, Objective  (4)




     calls for quote:




                   Regulating the  treatment,  storage,




 9    transportation and disposal of hazardous wastes which




10    have adverse effects  on health and  the  environment.




11                  we support adequate containment measures




12    for all significant concentrations  of hazardous wastes




13    as defined in Section  1004 of the Act.




14                  We would hope that  the type and levels




15    of materials to oe identified as  hazardous wastes  by




16    the Administrator per Section 3001  will  be limited to




     truly hazardous materials in  environmentally  dangerous



18
     concentrations.




                   It should not include  other wastes.   If




     the identification process becomes  too  inclusive,




     achievement of desirable treatment,  isolation and




     containment of the relatively small amounts  of  truly




     hazardous materials will be made  more difficult.




                   The problem should not be  diluted  by




     extending the application to  irrelevant materials.

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                                                            113
 1                   we  would recommend a rigid definition




 2     of  hazardous  materials based on published toxicologies




 3     and similar data.   An oral  mammalian LD5Q of less than




 4     five milligrams  per kilogram is used as a criterion in




 5     IMCO/GESAMP guidelines for  profiling hazardous




 6     materials.




 7                   The definition of hazardous waste in




 8     Section 1004  mandates consideration of both quantity




 9     and concentration of the material.  Generally,




10     materials which  occur naturally in the environment




11     should not be classified as hazardous.




12                   Solid waste represents an economic loss




13     to  industry and  to the maximum extent possible




14     materials are already recovered and re-used.




15                   We  are pleased that this Act recognizes




16     this by authorizing research to develop new techniques




17     to  recover valuable materials.




18                   Obviously, it is only through the




19     application of new techniques that significant increas




20     recovery of materials will  be possible.




21                   Anticipating  that these techniques will




22     be  developed, some industries are presently storing




23     their wastes which have the potential for future




24     recovery.  Regulations should encourage this  stock-




25     piling and not eliminate the potential for possible

-------
                                                            114
 1    recoveries of valuable materials.




 2                  Some solid wastes with high heating




 3    values are a potential source of energy as discussed




 4    in Section 1002 (d).  Unfortunately many solid wastes




 5    have a low heating value and are not amenable  to




 6    incineration due to the high supplementary fuel




 7    requirement.  These low heating value wastes must be




 3    disposed of by some other method.




 9                  We endorse expeditious implementation




10    of Section 3006 which authorizes state administration




11    of hazardous waste programs.




)2                  Texas Water Quality Board Order Number




13    75-1125-1 includes the essential elements of this Act




14    and constitutes a successful solid waste management




15    program in the State.




1$                  This program should not be disrupted and




17    we strongly recommend that the Texas Water Quality




18    Board be the implementing state agency.




19                  I want  to thank you for the opportunity




20    to make these remarks.  It was a pleasure.




21                  MR. LbZANO:   Any  comments?




22                  MR. SANJOUR:  I have  some.




23                  MR. LOZANO: Yes, sir.




24                  MR. SANJOUR:  You made several statement




25           about the  security of lagoons and  surface

-------
                                                            Us
 1           impoundments.  And  I would  like  to  know to what



 ^           extent you have data to  support  this.



 3                  MR. H«ND£LMAN:  I  think you  will find



            the regulations of  the Texas  Water  Quality



 5           Control Board absolutely  require  the  full



 *           impoundment of wastes within  these  facilities.



 7                  In other words, they prohibit  the



            contamination of ground water or  surface waters.


 o
            And there are many  of the companies that mentionjed



            that do ground water monitoring  to  be  sure the



11           material is fully contained.


19
                   Thest are not -- as  I  say, these are not



            just open dumps.  These are usually engineered



            disposal areas with well-constructed  and



15           expensive dikes.  Basically they  are  not open



            dumps, of course.



17                  MR. SANJOUR:  Thank  you.



18                  MR. LOZANO:  Thank you.  Mrs.  Pearl L.


19
            Wincorn .



20                  MRS. WINCORN:  I am  Mrs.  Pearl  L. Wincorn


21
     Natural Resources Coordinator of the League  of Women


22
     Voters of Dallas.  Ours is a volunteer  citizen


23
     educational and political  organization with  approximately



     four hundred and fifty members  in  the City of Dallas



     and environs.  vie are pleased with this  opportunity

-------
                                                           116
 1    to express to you some of our views on the subject of
 2    resource conservation and recovery.
 3                  The League of Women Voters has worked
 4    for improvement in our environment for many years.
 5    During 1976 the League followed the Congressional
 6    debate on the resource conservation and recovery bills
 7    and lobbied for passage of a strong bill.  Wa were
 "    pleased that many good features were included in the
 Q
     law as finally passed.
10                  Five years ago our members participated
     in a broad-ranging study of solid waste management
12    problems and practices in the United States.  The
     League of Women Voters of Dallas also  undertook an
     analysis of solid waste management in  the Dallas area.
15                  Among  other discoveries  we found a
     situation that still prevails!  A widespread ignorance
     and apathy with regard to this subject on  the part  of
     both citizens and public officials.  The general
19
     attitude wast  We want that garbage picked up but we
     don't want to know where you put  it down.
21                  The stringent requirements of  the Clean
22    Air Act  of 1970 and  the Federal Water  Pollution Contro
23
     Act of 1972 have  forced a change  in  this careless
24
     attitude.  Slowly since then the  most  obvious abuses
     of good  solid waste  management have been eliminated in

-------
                                                             117
  1    the  urban  areas  of  our  State,  except for  management




  2    of hazardous wastes about  which  much needs  to be done.




  3    However,  there  is  still no state legislation  in Texas




      that encourages  recovery or  recycling of  any  resources




  5                 The City  of  Dallas is  moving  toward a




  6    resource  recovery system.   By  1980  some materials




  7    separation capability will be  onj line.




  8                 By 1985 saleable energy may be  produced




  9    from the waste  stream by some  system which  by then wil




      have demonstrated  its success.




                   But Public Law 94-580  as  passed offers




      no possibility  of accelerating this  Dallas  schedule.




13    Section 8006 provides grants for resource recovery




14    systems and improved solid waste disposal facilities




15    only if and I quotes




                   A  state plan for solid waste  disposal




17    has  been adopted which  applies to the area  involved...



18
      Close quote.




                   Texas biennial legislative  sessions




      tend to move such action very, ver.y  slowly.




                   Resource  recovery  presents  two  big




22    interrelated problems for  Dallas.   These  arej




                   First, absence of  nearby markets for




      most recoverables.




                   And second,  discrimination  in freight

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                                                            118






 1    rates in favor of virgin over secondary materials.




 2                  Section 8005 of P.L. 94-580 mandates




 3    studies to develop recommendations for administrative or




     legislative action.  This will postpone the controversiil




 5    but obvious solutions for an additional year or two.




 6    But we are hopeful that the Secretary of Commerce will




 7    implement Subtitle E of the Act expeditiously.




 8                  While the City of Dallas has adequate




 9    landfill area until the year 2000, many of our suburban




10    neighbors are not so fortunate.  A recent study by the




11    North Central Texas Council of Governments analyzed




12    the solid waste situation in the eleven county area




13    which includes Dallas County and the City of Dallas.




14                  The Council of Governments concluded




'5    that sanitary landfills are the practical choice  for




     this region.  No suggestions are made in this report




17    for methods to reduce the waste load going to the




18    landfills.




                   While newspaper collection is done  in




     Dallas and perhaps elsewhere any other municipal  effort
21
     at waste separation at source or  for  storage  in  landfil
22    is regarded as totally impractical.



23                  The League of Women Voters  of Dallas




     believes that solid waste could,  in  fact,  should, be




     managed on a regional basis.   If  resource  recovery
Is

-------
                                                             119
  1    is  to  be  an  objective  the  larger  the  scale  of  operation


  2    the more  successful  it is  likely  to be.


  3                  The  League  is  hopeful that the Act's


  4    requirement  for  future federal  procurement  of  items


  5    containing substantial amounts  of recovered materials


  6    will promote their widespread availability  and use.


  7                  We regret that the  Act  postpones resource


  8    conservation until a  full  and complete investigation


  9    and study of all aspects  of  the economic,  social,  and


 10    environmental consequeces  are evaluated.  We  recognize


 1'    that this part of  Section  80U2  is truly a  political


 '2    hot potato.


t'3                  It seems to  us to be so vital to the


 14    future economic, social,  and environmental  well-being


 15    of  the United States  that  its proper  implementation


 "    is  the most  important part of this Act.


 17                  We have  two  more  comments on Public Law


 18    94-580.   Also in Section  8002,  part (g), labeled!


 "    Sludge.   No  mention  is made  of  well-known methods


 2"    to  deal with organic  household  wastes which could


      substantially reduce  the  future production of sewage

 ty\
      sludge.   Such systems as  the clivua no-flush  toilet


 23    and the  small scale  Domestic Sewage-Methane Cycle


      are in use  in Europe,  Africa, and Asia.  They could


      greatly improve  water conservation, eliminate the need

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                                                           120






 '    for very expensive tertiary treatment, produce energy,




 2    and provide a rich fertilizer at the end of the process




                   The costs of construction and changeover




     of household bathroom and kitchen fixtures are




 5    estimated to be far below those required for tertiary




 6    water treatment.




 7                  The League of Women Voters of Dallas




 8    suggests that this be included as part of the study of




 '    sludge to be undertaken by the solid waste Administrator.




10                  Finally, the League of Women Voters of




11    Dallas urges that preparation of strategies for




12    resource conservation be preceded by a media barrage




 3    to raise public awareness to the need.




14                  Otherwise, we will see a counterpart




15    of the present energy scenario; namely, public




16    disbelief fed by advertising to buy cars that consume
17




     interests.
     more energy, in total disregard of the nation's best



18
"                  We would like you  to  understand  that



     a League study  is not an academic exercise.  Its
21
     purpose is to provide  the substantive  underpinnings
22
      for subsequent member action  on  public  policy  issues.




                   We have worked  in  our  state  and




      community  to  establish  state  and local  standards  which




      not only meet but exceed  federal standards  and then

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                                                            121
  '    to ensure enforcement of those standards.



  2                  Throughout these efforts League members



  3    have expressed their willingness as consumers and



      taxpayers to share the costs with business in paying



      for pollution controls.



                    We want to assure the Environmental



      Protection Agency that the public remains your greates



  8    ally in continuing the strong effort to reduce



      environmental pollution.



 10                  Thank you for giving us this opportunity



 "    to present our testimony.
 12
 15
                    MR. LOZANO:  Thank you.  Mr. James A.
 13           Bannerot.



 14                  MR. BANNEROTs   My name is Jim Bannerot
      and I am with an Austin law firm which is representing
      Conservations Services, Inc. a waste disposal firm



 17    of industrial wastes in Jefferson County, by permit


 IP
      from the State of Texas.


 19
                    In the presence of so many experts in



      the field my comments will probably be elementary



      and my conclusions obvious.  But since this is for the



      record and it has been my experience that the record



      is where you put obvious comments and conclusions,


24
      elementary comments that perhaps my comments are


25       . .   , .
      applicable.

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                                                            122






                      have  found  through  the  years  that




 2    industrial wastes and  hazardous  wastes have  been a




 3    dirty word in  the mind of roost  people.    And we feel




 4    that part of this problem  is because it  tends  to deal \4ith




 5    isolated substances  rather  than  the  end  process of




 6    industry which produces many useful  and  benefical




     things}  for the public.




                    We ask that  the regulations that you




     consider and adopt  reflect  the  philosophy that solid




     waste is a necessary product of  a  necessary part of




11    the industrial chain and  treated as  such.




12                   We heard from Mr.  canfield that there wil]




13    be pressures,  probably economic  pressures to get into




14    recycling and  reclamation.   I think  this is all well




     and good but we  think  the  regulations ought to reflect




16    that solid waste disposal  as of  now  is  the best method




     and ought to be  encouraged and made  better, if possibl




                    Conservation Services  is  a small firm




"    in comparison  Vith  many of the national  and international




20    disposal firms.  And as such we  have a  great interest




     in making sure that the regulations  adopted are not




22    so cumbersome  and not  so  complicated as  to require




     a window  in  Washington or more apparently for us a




     battery of Philadelphia lawyers in order to decipher



25
     or  interpret the rules and- know how they apply.

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                                                            123






 1    If th is company has  enough  to  keep a  three or  four




 2    man Texas firm busy  that  will  be  satisfactory.




 3                  We ask that you  consider  the particular




 4    item  D that all areas  of  the state and  nation,  since




 5    our client operates  in the  Texas  Gulf Coast area,  we




 6    ask that you consider  as  an example this  area.




 7                  There  are a great number  of water courses),




 8    rivers, bayous, not  the least  of  which  you are dealing




 9    with  the Gulf of Mexico itself, a great density of




10    persons in a large area,  and a high concentration of




11    industry.




12                  These  factors all combine to make it




13    very  difficult for us. It  generates  a  great deal of




14    solid wastes and also  increases the difficulty with




15    which it can be disposed  of.




16                  Arbitrary rules  such as placement of




17    solid waste sites from water courses  or from habitable




18    — habitations would certainly tend to  restrict and




19    probably prohibit solid waste  disposal  in this area




20    even though they may  have  a  better application in West




21    Texas where land is  not so  dear.




22                  So we  ask that your exuberance , well-founded




23    exuberance for safety, be tempered with the fact that




24    we don't want to destroy  the industrial process.




25                  in conjunction with this  we would ask

-------
                                                            124






 1    that there would be no prohibition at all  on  interstate




 2    transportation of industrial wastes.  And  I assume




 3    from the comments there is none contemplated  or  no




 *    legislation concerning transportation of industrial




 5    wastes.




 6                  in conclusion we have been operating




 7    under the Texas Water Quality Board industrial waste




 8    regulations.  we find them to be both strict  and




 9    meaningful and I think they are working. We ask  you




10    to give them consideration in your regulations.




"                  Thank you.




12                  MR. LOZANO:  Mr. Don Stence.




13                  MR. STENCE:  I have provided my comment




14                   for the record so I will pass.




15                  MR. LOZANO:  Thank you.  Charles L.




"           Robertson.




17                  MR. ROBERTSON:  Yes.  I am presenting




18    this statement for the record for the Arkansas Federation




19    of Water and Air Users.




20                  The Arkansas Federation of Water and




     Air Users is pleased  to have this opportunity to




     express its  views on the Resource Conservation  and




23    Recovery Act, Public Law 94-580.




24                  The Federation is a non-profit  corporate




     of educational, civic, and scientific nature  and

-------
 1    represents approximately  one  hundred  seventy-five




 2    industrial, municipal, and  individual members  throughout




 3    the State of Arkansas.




 4                  The Federation  is  committed  to  the




 5    objective of coordinating the efforts of the membership




 6    to minimize the  potentially detrimental  effect that




 7    each member's operation might have  on the  environment.




 8                  Our members have used state  and  federal




 9    laws relative to the  quality  of  the environment and




10    the use  of natural  resources  as  the minimum guideline




11    for decision making.




12                  The law has been reviewed  and after




13    careful  consideration the Federation would like to




14    comment  on two areas:




15                  First,  we believe that regulatory




16    authority and  implementation  of the Act  should be




17    vested  in the appropriate state governmental agency.




'8    In the  case of Arkansas,  the  Arkansas Department of




19    Pollution Control and Ecology.




20                   it is clia belief of the Federation




21    membership that  state and local governments are best




22    attuned to the  unique situations of their  purview.




23                  Second, we  would ask that  proper funds




24    be appropriated  to  allow  the  states to conduct surveys




25    and other tools  of  implementation.

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                                                          126






 1                  Thank you.




 2                  MR. LOZANO:  C. L. Jordan.




 3                  MR. JORDAN:  My name is C. L. Jordan.




 4    I am the Regional Planner for transportation of solid




 5    waste for the North Central Texas Council of Governments.




 6    If my salary reflected anything that my title does I




 7    would quit this chicken job.  However, I can't because




 8    my salary doesn't fit my title.




 9                  I would like to take this opportunity




10    to advise representatives of EPA that our organization




11    the North Central Texas Council of Governments has in




12    fact been in the solid waste, the regional solid waste




13    management field for some time.




14                  With their assis'tance we conducted an




15    eleven county study that was referenced earlier.  We




16    have, to a great extent, accomplished a great many of




17    the goals set out in Public Law 94-580.  So maybe we




18    were a little bit in front of the  federal organization1.




19                  We have involved the locals in both the




20    public and private sectors.   As a result of our work




21    in solid waste we have a standing committee,   the




22    North Central Texas Council  of Governments Advisory




23    Committee to the North Central Texas Council of




24    Governments Executive Board and they have in fact met,




25    discussed various aspects of  the law.

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                                                            127
 '                   We  have  had  the  opportunity  to  review




 2     some  of  these  draft  guidelines.   And  in  general  I



 3     believe  that the  Committee will  be  making  recommendati<



 4     to  our Board to pass a resolution in  support  of  the



 5     Act itself and the process,  if you  will,  that EPA   is




 '     going through  in  developing  guidelines.




 7                   I think  that it  is  truly recognized  by



 8     the federal government that  many of the  things they


 p

      do  will  certainly affect us  at the  local  level and are



'°     now accepting  input  from us.



11                   And I  believe  that as long as they want



      to  make  it succeed I believe that we  will-find that



      our state government will  want to  make  it succeed.



      And I am quite sure  that our locals want  to make these



      provisions of  the Act  succeed.



                    That's all of  my statement.  I  appreciate



      the opportunity.


18
                    MR. LOZANOi  Is  there anyone else  who


19
            would like to make  a  statement?  This  is  the


90
            chance  for any  open discussion.  Any questions?



            last minute questions that you might have of


22
            members of the  panel?




                    MS. HANSBERRYs I am Betsy Hansberry of



            Browning-Ferris Industries.  Do you find that


25
            the New Jersey  ban  on importation  of wastes

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                                                           128
 1           into their state is inconsistent with the  intent



 2           of the new law?



 3                  MR. HICKMAN:  Well, that law has been



 *           challenged.  I don't know  if you know the  status



 5           of it.



 6                  MS. HANS BERRY:  It  was remanded back



 7           to New Jersey.



 8                  MR. HICKMAN:  It was remanded back  —  it



 9           was challenged all the way up to the Supreme


                  bi
10           Court a* the City of Philadelphia, et al.  And



1'           it has been remanded back  from  the Supreme



12           Court in the last two weeks saying that — the



'3           viewpoint of the Supreme Court, that the new



14           law and its intents and purposes for



15           regionalization in bringing the states  together



'6           to cooperate in solid waste management  —  said



17           the State Supreme Court should  reconsider  their



"*           determination  in the past.


                                       Trcea
19                  I don't think that  Reuia,  if  one  of my



20           colleagues here can back me up  on  this,  does



21           not address itself specifically to non-importat



22           bans  of interstate movement of  solid waste.



23                  It was  suggested from  time  to time  as  a



24           consideration  but  it was never  tuned into  the



25           Act.  Am  I right?  or  is  there  --  a specific
on

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                                                           129
 1            ban terminology?  Is that right, Bill?




 2                   MR. SANJOUR:  I have to only partially




 3            agree with you.  A word or two about the legis-




 4            lative history.




 5                   Congress was certainly aware of this




 6            problem.  EPA recommended to Congress that they




 7            strike out thesa bans.  Because we didn't feel




 8            that we could have regionalization of solid




 9            waste with such bans in effect.




10                   i believe that some of the states came




11            back and said that we are not going to become




12            the dumps for other states  that don't have




'3            adequate laws, or have laws that ban everything




'
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                                                            130
 1            out if  he  thought it was appropriate.   And I



 2            think  the  discretionary authority exists under



 3            Section 3006.   We are talking about hazardous



             waste  now.



 5                   Which says that a state authorized



 6            program must be equivalent to the federal



 7            program, consistent with other state programs.



 8            I  think that is the phrase,  "consistent with



 9            other  state  programs."



 10                   In  other words, if we had in place a



 "            system  of  hazardous waste management which took



 12            care of the  problem of one state throwing its



 13            wastes  across  the state lines, when that



 14            situation  existed that the Administrator could
IS
             strike  out any state that put forward bans
16           because  it was inconsistent with other state



17           programs,



18                  I think the authority exists but it is



             a  discretionary authority.



20                 MS. HANSBERRYj  Is that in the hazardous


21
             waste area?



22                 MR. SANJOURs That particular authority


23
             is in the hazardous waste area, yes~.  I don't



             think that Congres gives any authority to EPA


25
             to strike out those bans for garbage,

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                                                            131





                   MR. HICKMANi  Other  solid wastes.   We



 2           have already established  that,  of  course,  sludges



 3           and mining wastes and  other liquids are solid



 4           wastes.  So  it  is a little  more broad  now.



 5                  Is Mr. Robertson still here?  Could I



 6           ask you a question about  your second statement?



 7           Which  said something about  funds.  What was



            your statement  about.




 9                  You said:  Gee, let's let the states



10           do it.  And we  totally agree with  that and that



11           is the intent of the law.   The  thing was  about



            providing enough funds to get the  job  done?



13                  MR. ROBERTSON!  Yes.   Just be certain tha



14           the funds that  are mentioned in  the law,  use ali



15           of our efforts  to see  that  the  funds are




            appropr iated.



17                  MR. HICKMAN!  Could  I ask you what your


1ft
            organization  and your state is doing  about tha
19
                   MR.  ROBERTSON!  We  are  in constant
20            contact  with  the  Arkansas  Department of Pollution



             Control.and Ecology and  with our state



22            legislature.   One of the problems we have is




             we  don't meet but every  two years and are juat


24
             about  ready  to adjourn.



                   So that creates a problem.  We feel very

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                                                             132
 1           fortunate  that we  are  —  we  are  a  rather small




 2           state compared to  Texas.   I  am a native Texan




 3           transplanted  to  the Land  of  Opportunity.




 4                  MR. HICKMANs  We don't hold that against




 5           you.  I, myself, am from  Baja, Oklahoma, which




 6           is what Texas  is,  of course.




 7                  MR. ROBERTSON:   The thing,  I think it




 8           was brought up,  Lanny,  at the conference in




 '           Kansas City.   The  thoughts that  were expressed




'0           there by the  State of  Missouri and the reservat;




'1           that the Senate  had in passing the proposed




12           Missouri Bill and  the  fact that  the funds might




13           be there for  some  few  years, three or four yean




14           and then all  of  a  sudden  the states be left




'5           with large things  to do and no funds- to help




'«           us.




17                  I would hope that  the states would be




'"           financially able once  they have  been assisted b;




19           the federal  funds, the states be  financially




20           able to  implement  their own program because




21           I  think  that  is  the way you cut  the umbilical




22           cord from  the federal  government.




23                  And I  do  think  states must enforce their




24           own regulations.  They can't be  from Washington




25                  MR. HICKMAN:   Well,  once  again,  its  the

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                                                              133
  1           region, not Washington.  But I still agree with

  2           you on that.

  3                  There is a provision of the  law  that

  4           would preclude grant dollars, federal dollars,

  5           to go into salaries after December  31st, 1979,

  6           for state and local program implementation.

  7                  Senator Randolph recently published an

  8           article which is the best and the most

  9           authoritative discussion of what the intent  of
             Ece^
 10           Re-e-ra is.  And in that discussion he clearly

 11           makes the point that it was not the intent of

 12           the Congress to leave state and local governmen

 13           hanging and waiting for the other shoe  to drop

 14           by this clause here which would indicate a

 15           stoppage at the end of 1979 of federal  support.

 16                  And that was indeed something that the

 17           Congress would be looking at in the very near

 18           term as far as — we are already talking about

 19           the next set of amendments.

 20                  MR. ROBERTSON: Where was that published?

 21                  MR. HICKMAN:  It's called Public Land

 22           — it's- an organization,  Environmental  Land  Use

 23           — i tell you what.  If you will give me your

 24           card or something I have yerf. a copy back in  my

25           office — over in my room. I didn't happen to

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                                                             134
 1           bring it over here  today.   It  is  in  some




 2           publication that is put out by an  environmental




 3           group that talks about the  law and has  a  couple




 4           of _s_tate agencies writing about  it.  Sheldon




 5           »$er>of EPA writes  about  it.   Sheldon tfyer^and




 6           Senator Randolph and  some other  people.   And  if




 7           you give me your card I will get  you a  copy of




 8           it.




 9                  And I left a question for  me. Didn't




10           you ask a question  about  budget  and  I said let's




11           come back to that later on? What was your




12           question?




13                  UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS   A  major concern




14           is to make sure that  we really need  to  look at




15           the question of developing  regional  plans to




16           handle those materials flushed out of the




17           sewers due to  industrial  wastes  ordinances as




18           required by Public  Law 92-500  implementation.




19                  These funds  need to  be  both at  the




20           federal  level  —  I  mean at  the state level and




21           at the regional level because  as you point out,




22           208 deals strictly  with residuals, ponds, centre




23           and regional treatment facilities and major




24           processing  industry.




25                  There  is a  big dichotomy  because everybo

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                                                            135
 1            thinks  that  industrial waste   is  only from the




 2            process  industry  and  it  occurs  first in service




 3            industries and  also  in light  manufacturing.




 4                   Because  we  see the  plans put  together




 5            the  underpinnings  for such cities employment.




 6            And  when  there  is  two thousand  gallons of




 7            surprises and every  one  is different that  plan




 8            has  got  to come and  cope with that.   That  is




 9            a  true  technology demand on solid technology




10            requirements.




11                  MR. HICKMANi   I would  assume, of course,




12            that within  the provisions of Recra  for the




13            development  of  .s,tate  and local  plan  and the




'4            subsequent implementation  that  those sort  of




IS            questions will  have  to be  covered in that




16            planning  process  provided, you  know, there is  a




'7            mechanism to get  those studies  funded.




]8                  UNIDENTIFIED  SPEAKER:   The State of




!'            Colorado  has asked you for it.  Some cities




20            have.




21                  MR. HICKMANi   We have  a  basic problem




22            with the  amount of money that is  available.




23            Everything is not going  to get  don^  at once.




24            You  know, the law authorizes  around  a hundred




25            and  eighty million dollars for  FY '78.  And  the

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136
 1            funding  level  we  are  looking at right now is




 2            approximately  thirty-six  million dollars.  And




 3            of  that  only twelve million dollars  is for gran




 4            to  state and local government.




 5                  So  there  is a  problem there  of trying




             to  get it  all  done at once.




 7                  MR. MYRICKi  You can read about it and




 8            write reports  about it.   Doing  it is another




 9            problem.




10                  MR. HICKMAN:   You  have got a  point




11                  MR. LOZANOs i  would like to thank you




12            all for  coming out to our meeting today. And




13            also the panel members coming down from Washing'




14            to  tell  us what  the status of Recra  is.




15                  We  will be contacting you in  the future




16            on  hearings and  so forth  as regulations are




17            developed  and  guidelines.  We will still need




18            new input  in  the  future.




19                  Thank you




20                        (Whereupon, the proceedings were




21                        terminated.)




22




23




24




25
  on

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                                                             137
 1                    CERTIFICATE

 2


             This  is to certify that I, Joy Jackson,


 4     reported  in  shorthand the proceedings had at  the  time


 5     and  place set forth in the caption hereof,  and  that the


      above  and foregoing 136 pages contain a  full,  true


 7     and  correct  transcript of said proceedings.

 8


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11

                               4308 Purdue'"'-  75225
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REGIONAL PUBLIC MEETINGS ON RCRA
Meeting
Date
Feb 15,16
Feb 17,18
Feb 23
Feb 23,24
Feb 25
Feb 26
Feb 28,
March 1
March 3
March 4

Mar 8,9
Mar 10,11
Mar 17,18
Mar 21,22
Meeting
Place
Kansas City,
Missouri
Richmond,
New York,
City
Atlanta,
Georgia
Worcester,
Massachusetts
Concord,
New Hampshire
Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania
Denver,
Colorado
ISalt Lake City,
Utah

Dallas, Texas
San Francisco,
California
Seattle,
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Facility
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American City
Squire,
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Sheraton-Biltmore
Hotel, 817 W.
Peachtree N.E.
Sheraton-
Lincoln Inn
Ramada Inn
William Penn
Hotel
Main Library
1357 Broadway
Hilton Hotel
150 W. South
Fifth Street
First Int'l Bldg
(29th Floor)
1201 Elm St
Holiday Inn
Union Square
480 Sutter
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Inn (Kennedy
Expressway)
Time
Evening Feb 15,
morning Feb 16
Evening Feb 17,
Day, 9 am-3 pm
evening 4-7 pm
Evening Feb 23,
8:30 am Feb 24
1 pm
1 pm
Evening Feb 28,
morning Mar 1
8:30 am-
12:30 noon
8:30 am-
12:30 noon

Evening Mar 8,
morning Mar 9
Evening Mar 10,
8 am Mar 11,
Evening Mar 17,
All day Mar 18
Evening Mar 21,
all day Mar 22
Sponsoring
EPA Office
Region VII
(Kansas City)
Region III
Region II
(New York City)
Region IV
(Atlanta)
Region I
(Boston)
Region I
(Boston)
Region III
(Philadelphia)
Region VIII
(Denver)
Region Vffl
(Denver)

Region VI
(Dallas)
Region IX
(San Francisco)
Region X
(Seattle)
Region V
(Chicago)
                                    Shelf No. 595

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