TRANSCRIPT



                          Public Hearing

              on Proposed Regulation for Development

      and Implementation of State Solid Waste Management Plans

                October 26, 1978, Washington, D.C.
     This hearing was sponsored by EPA, Office of Solid Waste,
and the proceedings (SW-46p) are reproduced entirely as transcribed
      by the official reporter, with handwritten corrections.
               U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
                               1978

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                      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

                    ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION  AGENCY

   --------------------X

   In the Matter of:

   PROPOSED REGULATION FOR DEVELOPMENT
   AND IMPLEMENTATION OF STATE SOLID
   WASTE MANAGEMENT PLANS
                               General Services  Administration
                               Auditorium
                               18th  and  F  Streets,  N.W.
                               Washington,  D.C.

                               Thursday
                               October 26,  19713

          The public hearing in the  above-entitled  matter

commenced at 9:00 a.m.

BEFORE:

          Dr. John Skinner, Chairman
          Director, Land Protection  Division
          Office of Solid ^Jaste, EPA

          George Garland
          Chief, Assistance Branch
          Land Protection Division
          Office of Solid Waste, EPA

          Susan Absher
          Land Protection Division
          Office of Solid Waste, EPA

          David O'Brien
          Land Protection Division
          Office of Solid Waste, EPA

          Frank McAlister
          Land Protection Division
          Office of Solid Waste, EPA

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                                                              1A

BEFORE:   (Continued)

          David  Gavrich
          Resource  Recovery Division
          Office of Solid Waste, EPA

          Anne Allen
          Attorney-Advi sor
          Office of Solid Waste, EPA

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                            CONTENTS





     STATEMENT OF:                                        PAGE  NO.
Oscar H.  Adams                                           8




Carey P.  Busbin                                         23




Chris Stotler                                            3g




John J. Dunn,  Jr.                                        54




J. Rodney Edwards                                        60




Elizabeth Dollard                                        71




Thomas Cunningham                                        gj




George Atkins                                            86

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          DR. SKINNER:   I would  like  to welcome  you  to  a



public hearing on the Proposed Guidelines  for  Development




and Implementation of State Solid Waste Management Plans.




          My name is John Skinner.  I am Director of the




Land Disposal Division in EPA.




          Let me introduce the rest of the panel.  Starting




at this end of the table is Susan Absher,  who  is one of the




primary authors of the Guidelines.




          Next to her is George  Garland, who is  the  Chief  of




the Assistance Branch in the Land Disposal Division.




          Next to him is David O'Brien.  Next  to him is




Frank McAlister.  Both of them are in the  Land Disposal




Division, and have worked on the Guidelines.




          Next is Anne Allen, who is  an attorney with our




Management and Information Staff.



          Next to Anne is David  Gavrich, who is  with our




Resource Recovery Division.




          This panel has just completed 10 public meetings




around the country, giving presentations on the  Guidelines,




answering questions, and soliciting comments.  So, these




are the people that actually worked on the Guidelines and




will be here today to hear your  comments and testimony.




          The proposed Guidelines are required by Section




4002(b) of the Resource  Conservation  and Recovery Act.

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    Copies of them  are available  at  the  registration desk.




              These Guideline's were  published  in  the Federal




    Register, as proposed, on August 28th,  and there is  90-day




    public comment  period which will end November 27th of this




 5   year.




 6             The Guidelines set  forth the  requirements  for State




    plans, and  they recommend methods and procedures to  meet




    those requirements.




 9             The Guidelines address a broad spectrum of planning




10   and implementation activities, including the  identification




11   of State and substate solid waste management  responsibilities,




12   the encouragement of resource conservation and resource




13   recovery, and the application and enforcement of environ-




14   mentally sound  disposal practices.



15             States are eligible for financial assistance under




16   subtitle D  of this Act if they develop  a State plan  in




17   accordance  with these Guidelines.




18             The Guidelines are  organized  into seven sections




19   and a preamble.  The first section sets forth the general




20   requirements for State plans, and defines  the terminology,




21   and also sets forth the procedures for  submission of a State




22   plan and review and approval  of  that State plan by EPA.




23             The second subpart, Subpart B, lists the require-




24   ments and recommendations  for the identification of  State




25   and substate responsibilities for developing  and implementing

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     the State plan.




               Subpart C relates to State regulatory programs




     with emphasis on closing and upgrading open dumps, and




     preventing new open dumps.




 5              Subpart D discusses various aspects of State




 6    resource recovery programs.




 7              Subpart E discusses planning for resource recovery




     and disposal facilities.




 9              Subpart F deals with coordination with other




10    programs, including programs under the Clean Water Act and




n    the Safe Drinking Water Act.




12              Subpart G sets forth the public participation




13    requirements for the State plans and other related activities




14    under the State plans.




15              The plan should cover a five-year time period.




16    It should be developed in accordance with the public partici-




17    pation procedures outlined in the Guidelines, and the plan




18    is to be submitted to EPA for review and approval within




19    18 months after final publication of these Guidelines.




20              The estimated or projected publication date for




     these Guidelines in final form will be the middle of next




22    year, June of next year.




23              Let me describe how we will conduct this hearing




24    today.  The purpose of this hearing is to obtain testimony




25    from interested parties on the Guidelines, so that we may

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 l   review  that  testimony  and make  modifications  in the Guidelines




 2   before  final promulgation.




 3              All substantive comments  received at this hearing




 4   will be addressed  before  final  promulgation of the Guidelines.




 5   Also, all  comments received at  public  meetings and all




 6   comments  that are sent to us in writing before the closing




 7   date, will also be considered before final promulgation of




 8   the Guidelines.




 9              This is  not  a ::ormal  hearing.   It is not an adjudica




10   tory hearing with  cross-examination, but we will be asking




11   questions, and your answers to  those questions are voluntary.




12              We will  hear the witnesses and organizations that




13   have requested beforehand to make formal statements, first.




14   Following  that,  anyone who would like  to make a stcitement



15   and has not  registered tc do so, will  be allowed to do so.




16              So that  we may keep to our schedule, we would like




17   each speaker to limit  his or her comments to approximately




18   10 minutes.   If you have  a longer statement,  you can submit




19   that for the record, and we would appreciate it if you would




20   summarize  it in approximately 10 minutes.




21              We will  hear th<3 speakers in the order in which




22   they have  registered.   Before beginning the presentations,




23   the speakers should identify themselves and the organizations




24   that they  represent.



25              The written  statements from the speakers, as well

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 l    as any oral statements that they make, will be included in




 2    a transcript of the hearing.  We request that if you do have




 3    a written copy of your comments, that you submit a copy to




 4    the reporter.  Also, if any of you have any extra copies,




 5   if you could make them available to the panel, that would be




 6    very helpful.




 7              If there are any persons, who have not registered




 8    to make a statement and would like to do so, please do so




 9    rhjM" now with the registration clerk.




10              After each oral statement, the panel will ask ques-




11    tions of the speaker, and also the audience will be given




12    an opportunity to ask questions of the speaker, as well.  We




13    would appreciate it if those questions could be submitted in




14    writing on white index cards,  that are available out at the




15    registration desk.  If you will just hold those cards out,




16    someone in the back will pick them up and bring them up




17   .here, and we will ask the question for you.  That will provide




18    for a non—duplication of questions and will provide for a




19    speedy hearing.




20              we would appreciate it when you do ask a question,




21    that you indicate your name and your affiliation on the




22    question.




23              The statements, questions, and comments, that we




24    receive today,  will become part of the public record for




25    this rul^making.   This record is available for inspection

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 1    in  Room 2107,  United States Environmental Protection Agency,




 2    401 "M" Street,  Southwest,  Washington.




 3              Also,  a copy o.:  the transcript will be available




 4    upon request in  approximately two to three months after the




 5    hearing.




 6              Again,  let me remind you that any comments that




 7    you would like to make either today, or comments that you




 8    can make up until the closing date of the public comment




 9    period, November 27, 1978,  will be very helpful to us.




10              Are there any questions on how we are going to




11    proceed today?  If not, the first speaker is Dr. Arthur




12    Morris.  Dr. Morris, is he  here?




13              (No response.)




14              DR.  SKINNER:  The next speaker is Thomas Cheeca or




15    Mr. Kevin Cooley.




16              (No response. )




17              DR.  SKINNER:  M,s. Sarah Biehle?




18              (No response.)




19              DR.  SKINNER:  I:  these people come in later, we




20    will include them at the <>nd of the hearing.




21              Mr.  Oscar AdamsV




22              MR.  ADAMS:  Good morning.




23              i am Oscar Adams;, Deputy Assistant Commissioner,




24    Office of Health Protection and Environmental Management,




25    Virginia Department of Health, Richmond, Virginia.  My

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 1    statement today is on behalf of the Department with State




 2    responsibility for solid and hazardous waste management.




 3              Mr.  Gilley, the Director of the Solid and Hazardous




 4    Waste Management Division, was scheduled to make this state-




 5    ment today,  but he is involved in a statewide public parti-




 6    cipation effort on our State Solid Waste Management Plan, an




 7    effort occupying the entire program staff for more than two




 8    weeks.  Last night I think they had a hearing at George Mason




 9    in Fairfax.




10              I  appreciate this opportunity to express our views




11    on the proposed Guidelines on State Solid Waste Management




12    Plans in view of our current efforts to adopt such a plan.




13    Management plans such as these are important in the develop-




14    ment of adequate programs even though the planning and program




15    development  phases may have to take place over a prolonged




16    period.




17              The adoption procedure being followed is establish-




18    ed in Virginia's Administrative Processes Act and is consider-




19    ed for the State plan.  The adoption process used is the same




20    as for a regulation.  This process, similar to that of many




21    states, is adequate to accomplish the purposes of RCRA.




22              As asked in the supplementary information, more




23    specific approval requirements would seem to be inappropriate




24    and may in fact cause further administrative delays in plan




25    adoption.  I would not recommend that the adoption procedure

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    be more  specific.




              May  I  add,  due  to  State  administrative  procedures,




    it has  taken  several years: for  states  to  qualify under  the




    Safe Drinking  Water Act.   Therefore,  additional,  more  spe-




    cific  requirements would  make  it most difficult for states




    to qualify.




              Another request for  comment causes  consternation




    with our staff.  It is  suggested that EPA is  considering




    consolidation  of State  work  program submissions for all




10   environmental  programs  into  a  single  State/EPA agreement.




ll             A  State/EPA agreement would only be of  value for




12   individual programs and meeting the contractual requirements




13   of EPA for each  grant.  Consolidation into a  single agreement




14   is highly objectionable.   All  environmental program!; in




15   Virginia are not managed  by  a  single  department.




16             Lumping all programs would  have the effect of




17   demanding that the State  have  an EPA  equivalent structure.




18   Attainment of  such structure would require legislative action




19   on the  part of  the General Assembly, an action which, in our




20   State, has been  considered in  the  past and rejected.




21             in Virginia,  RCRA  activities,  the Safe  Drinking




22   Water  Program, and TOSCA  are within the  Department of  Health -




23   and I might add that we  joiitly have responsibility under the




24   Clean  Water  Act  — where  appropriate  emphasis is  given to  the




25   priority of  health protection.

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 l              These programs are effectively coordinated now




 2    with that of the Clean Water Act to the fullest extent, and




 3    I fail to see how such a program submission consolidation is




 4    going to bring about better coordination within the State.




 5    By consolidation, one might assume that funds would also be




 6    consolidated.




 7              The danger then is that a program allocated a




 8    smaller percentage than another might result in siphoning




 9    of funds between programs or creation of new overhead require-




10    ments resulting in lower actual program funding.




11              The Conference of State Sanitary Engineers passed




12    a resolution in opposition to such consolidation which was




13    sent to the Administrator.  The separate identity of RCRA




14    will be lost, and this can only result in a less effective




15    program.




16              Apparently, this is a decision that has already




17    been made since the Federal Register of October 12, Part III




18    on the final rules for grants for State Underground Water




19    Source Protection Programs specifies that all FY 1980




20    programs will be part of the single State/EPA agreement.




21              Such an action is contrary to the spirit of public




22    participation advocated by the Federal Government as the




23    requirement for State and local decisions, and indicates




24    a breakdown of proper communication at the EPA between




25    various programs.  Burdening the State governments with work

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 I    program consolidation to cure EPA internal ailments seem




 2    to penalize the wrong party.




 3              The purpose of the proposed regulations stated in




     paragraph 256.01(b) is to address the minimum requirements




     for approval of State plans.  Yet, the Guidelines go far




     beyond these minimum requirements.




               As an example, it is stated that hazardous waste




     planning activities are to be included in the State plan.




 9    Since this is an EPA responsibility under RCRA, it is




10    inappropriate to include on a mandatory basis until the




     State decision to seek authorization to administer and




12    enforce the hazardous waste program has been made.




13              There is an error in paragraph 256.01 (b) (6) .  One




14    might interpret it to be mandatory that plans require resource




15    recovery and disposal facilities in combination considering




16    what is environmentally sound.  Disposal planning must be




17    allowed not in combination with resource recovery as stated




18    in the Act.  Otherwise, we will see recovery projects




19    developed without an adequate economic basis.




20              The Guidelines require that State plans be sub-




21    mitted for approval within 18 months of promulgation.




22    Planning to the detailed level envisioned in the scope and




23    subsequent subparts, implementation of public participation




24    requirements, planning for a minimum of five years, and




25    full coordination with other programs will take more than

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      two years.




 2              Since it has taken EPA two years to develop these




 3    proposed Guidelines,  time phasing of planning should be




 4    more than setting priorities.  A waste category should not




      be  the  only element of consideration in such plan phasing.




                The annual work plan is an important element of




      planning and implementation.  The maintenance of flexibility




      is  essential in the guidance developed for these work plans




 9    if  the  individual State needs are to be considered.   The




10    same consideration should be incorporated in the planning




11    process itself.




12              Our proposed State plan uses similar language to




!3    that of paragraph 256.30(c), and therefore should comply




14    with this mandatory requirement.  However, this places the




15    burden  on individual  states  to develop materials procurement




16    specifications such as for paving or paper where Federal




17    funds are used.   This should be reversed.




18              The Federal agency providing the funds should




!9    identify the materials to be procured by specification and




20    market  source.   My review of Section 6002 of RCRA would




21     require the Federal agencies to do this and EPA producing




22     procurement guidelines.   Before implementing the require-




23     ment in this regulation,  limit its application.




24              Throughout  the document you see the terms  "shall"




25     and  "should."  By your definition,  "shall" is used for a.

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 1    mandatory requirement to be included in the plan.  My  fear




 2    is that by including recommendations in the regulation,




 3    the "should" will translate to "shall" in plan preparation,




 4    public review, and EPA approval.




 5              This will happen through interpretation  of what




 g    strategy of policy will encourage resource recover/.   The




 7    first recommendation includes training, financial  support,




 8    and market development.  Virginia is financially limited  in




 9    its ability to undertake such efforts^ so why infer this




10    level of detail in the Guidelines for State plans?




11              The recommendation contained in the: Prearible, for




12    the States to have authority to acquire solid waste disposal




13    facilities or cause facilities to be acquired is totally




14    unrealistic in Virginia's legal context.




15              Even if the facilities could be acquired, who




16    would finance them and who would operate such a facility?




17    Are you considering the State dictating facility location?




18    Such a suggestion is totally unacceptable.




19              During the public meeting held in Annapolis,




20    Maryland, on October the 13th, the attendees were  solicited




21    for comments on the advisability for public hearings prior




22    to the issuance of permit:? to operate solid waste  disposal




23    facilities.




24              Such site selection, acquisition, and operation




25    of disposal facilities are; a local responsibility, and are

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 1    accomplished with ample public participation  in  all  stages




 2    of the decision process for use permits and zoning.




 3              Once the  site has been  selected  and the  operational




 4    plans have been approved, holding additional  public  hearings




 5    on the issuance of  a  State permit is highly redundant  and




 6    would result in totally unnecessary delays in addition to




 7    a waste of taxpayer's money.




 8              We have already objected to  the  expansiveness of




 9    the public participation requirements  in a previous  hearing.




10    I consider these requirements to  be arbitrary and  capricious,




11    going far beyond the  purposes of  Section 7004 (b) of  RCRA.




12              Virginia  has an Administrative Process Act cover-




13    ing the necessity of  public participation.  The  mandatory




14    requirements of paragraphs 256.60, 256.61, and 256.62  go




15    far beyond what is  reasonable and essential for  the  involve-




16    ment of an informed public.  I am enclosing a copy of  our




17    previous comments for the record.




18              The mandatory inclusions within  the annual work




19    program would seem  to take away State  flexibility.   For




20    example, State planning for development of hazardous waste




21    management facilities may be beyond the financial  abilities




22    and the policy of a State.




23              Developing  regulations  on hazardous waste  manage-




24    ment, if the State  elects to apply for the authority to




25    administer Subtitle C, is more appropriate.   Only  if it is

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     a State policy to own ard operate such facilities or ser-




     vices would paragraph 256.05(d)(2) be considered.  If all




 3    elements of the work program are mandatory, what will EPA




 4    and the State negotiate?




 5              Resource conservation and recovery are specified




 6    in RCRA.  To make a requirement that State and local govern-




     ments shall not prohibit long -term contracts for resource




     recovery is important.  Yet, it will require legislative




     action to authorize such contracts.




10              Such a plan element is of little value wh.ere a




11    customer for recovered energy is a Federal facility.  Except




12    for a recent amendment to the Military Construction Appropria-




13    tion Act, Federal contracts are limited to one year.  Under




14    the amendment of the Military Construction bill, the




15    military may contract up to 10 years for recovered energy.




16              Ten years may not yield bonds or project funding




17    at an economically competitive level.  Resource recovery




18    without a sound economic base will become a community white




19    elephant with the taxpayers bearing yet another burden.




20              You are requiring States to plan for something




21    that is not possible within the Federal Government.




22              Thank you.  If there are any questions, I will




23    try and answer them.




24              DR. SKINNER:  Thank you, Mr. Adams.  Are there




25    any questions from the panel?  Let me start.  I have a few,

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 1   and maybe some will develop.




 2             Could you explain very  briefly what the  procedure,




 3   the administrative procedure  for  adoption  of  a plan  through




 4   Virginia's Administrative Processes  Act would be?




 5             MR. ADAMS:  Yes, sir.   Well,  under  the Administra-




 6   tive Process Act  — and  this  is the  result of our  legislature




 7   becoming disenchanted with the Federal  programs and  all  the




 8   Federal regulations that are  emanating  from Washington.   They




 9   have Made, it most difficult now for  a State agency to adopt




10   regulations.




11             Under the present State law,  it  would be neces-




12   sary that we have, taking the State  plan,  go  through public




13   participation, get the plan approved by the State  Board  of




14   Health, and then  we must file it  with the  Secretary  of the




15   Commonwealth.  For the Board  to adopt it,  of  course, we




16   have to go through public hearings.  Then,  the plan  will




17   have to be filed  with the Secretary  of  the Commonwealth




18   and with the appropriate committees  of  the State legislature.




19             It will not become  effective  until  after




20   February 1st of the following year.




21             We go beyond that because  we  would  like  to iron




22   out any differences before, and at the  present time, we  are




23   taking a draft plan, and we are setting up public  hearings




24   in eight places over the State in the next two weeks,  to




25    explain that plan, find  out what  the people feel about that

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                                                               18


 1    plan.  He have sent out over  350 copies of  that plan,  which

 2    is another huge task.

 3              Based upon those comments, we will  try  to  draft

 4    another plan.  Then, we will  go to the Board  later on  to

 5    seek authority to go to the formal hearing  that is necessary

 6    for the adoption of the plan.

 7              Then, after it is adopted by the  Board, we file

 8    it with the Secretary fo:r the Commonwealth, and finally,

 g    I guess if the legislature agrees, we will  then have it

10    adopted.

11              DR. SKINNER:  Is it approved by the legislature

12    or the Governor?

13              MR. ADAMS:  No, it  is not approved.  It is sub-

14    mitted to the Secretary of the Commonwealth and sent to

15    the various committees.  Now, we have to send it  also  at

16    that time to all the municipalities.

17              DR. SKINNER:  That  was another question I  was
          -h> as*,
18    going^ how you handle local government's review.

19              MR. ADAMS:  We are  doing that as  we go  along,

20    and we will have to send that to local governments.

21              DR. SKINNER:  Fine.  Thank you.

22              Questions from the  panel?  David?

23              MR. GAVRICH:  I have a question dealing with

24    resource recovery and procurement specifically.   There is

25    a statement in here that the  proposed State plan  uses

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                                                                19
 1   similar language to the Guidelines  language on procurement




 2   of recycled materials.




 3             First of all, I want to say, in answering that




 4   paragraph, we are developing Guidelines on procurement  for




 5   specifications of recycled material and the like, and those




 6   will be available to the State beginning in June of next year




 7             My question is, what type of language, what type




 8   of procurement setup is there planned for in the State  of




 9   Virginia?




10             MR. ADAMS:  I cannot answer that in any detail




ll   at this time, but we are put into a position where we are




12   not in the chain of procurement even.  The procurement  is




13   done by others.  You are putting the solid waste program




14   responsible for procurement action, and it has no real  way




15   to exit or enter the chain.




16             MR. GAVRICH:  I think part of the — just to




17   clarify one point — part of the Guidelines' recommendations




18   are that the State solid waste management plan take certain




19   steps to bring together those powers of procurement, the




20   Office of Administration, and the like, and not mandate.




21    We understand that the Solid waste  plan can't mandate




22    procurement of recycled materials.




23              MR. ADAMS:  Well, I still think that you have to




24    look at that regardless of what you have there in the law,




25    and I think you are being very unrealistic in that section

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 1    of the law, that we are going to be able to tell City X




 2    that you should use glass in your concrete because you are




 3    building a sewage treatment plant under the Clean Water Act




 4    grant.




 5              The real thing is the specifications, and you are




 6    getting into a very gra/ area, as far as I am concerned,




 7    when you get down to tell Contractor X that he has got to




 8    use 20 percent glass in his concrete.  If the thing fails,




 9    he is going to say, "Well, that glass is what made it fail."




10              MR. GAVRICH:  That is one of the reasons why the




11    National Bureau of Standards and EPA are working on these




12    specifications.




13              MR. ADAMS:  I think it has got to come out a lot




14    clearer than it has at the present time, of what the State's




15    responsibility is.  This: is one of the things that I see.




16    We are doing the planning, and we are doing it a little bit




17    into a vacuum, because you know what you are going to do




18    on this type of thing, but it is not out for us to have the




19    advantage of it.




20              DR. SKINNER:  On that particular point, the




21    Guidelines do say that that action can be deferred until




22    EPA comes out with further guidance on that area.  So, we




23    are aware of that point.




24              Are there any other questions?  Frank?




25              MR. MC ALISTER:  In your statement, I was

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                                                               21
 i    concerned about the hazardous waste  planning activities.




 2    There is a statement here  that  is  the  responsibility of




 3    EPA under RCRA.  Would you clarify what you meant by this?




 4              MR. ADAMS:  What I feel  is  me*l»t t>H /*"_'*  <•***"




 5    under RCRA, and as I understand the  law,  EPA was  given the




 6    responsibility to do the planning  and  write regulations for




 7    hazardous waste management.  It is possible,  if a State so




 8    selects and has equally a  stringent  a  program,  that  they




 9    might apply and be given the responsibility for that




10    activity within the State.




11              What you are asking us to  do is to  buy  a pig in




12    a poke with hazardous wastes, because  I know that it is a




13    very difficult problem, and until  your regulations are out




14    and we know a little bit what is going on,  we can't  make a




15    decision on it.




16              I might add that we want  a  law that  will  provide




n    for our qualifying, and I  think that we would like to qualify




18    because I think it is a State responsibility, and I  think




19    most of the people will want us to do  that  job.




20              But, again, until you come out  with some of your




21    regulations, and as I see  it, if they  are so  burdensome,




22    maybe we can't and won't be able to  qualify.




23              MR. MC ALISTER:   Even in the absence  of the regu-




24    latory part of RCRA, what  would Virginia  do for providing




25    facilities?

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                                                               22
 1              MR. ADAMS:  I just cannot answer that.   I do not




 2    know what the answer is.,




 3              DR. SKINNER:  I have another question.   You




 4    mentioned several points; on the concept of a total State/




 5    EPA agreement, which would coordinate grant applications from




 6    a number of programs.




 7              The concept behind that is that there are a lot of




 8    overlapping programs anc a lot of overlapping responsibilities




 9    under the Clean Water Act and RCRA and the underground




10    injection control program of the Safe Drinking Water Act.




11    Many different agencies are involved in similar activities.




12              One vehicle for coordinating that would  be through




13    a combined State/EPA agreement, where all the agencies get




14    together and submit a consolidated work program.




15              Short of such an agreement, do you perhaps discuss




16    how, in the State of Virginia, that coordination does take




17    place, or if there is such a need for such coordination?




18              MR. ADAMS:  In my testimony there, I said I did




19    not see the need for it.  Most of the programs that you have




20    got, or a good part of them, are in the Healbh Department




21    already.  These are work plans that you are going  bo develop,




22    and you are going to develop them with the other Sbate




23    agencies, knowing what they are doing and what you are going




24    to do under yours.




25              There isn't enough money to do everything, and we

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                                                               23







 1    have to depend on the other State agencies.




 2              For example, at the present time, we use  the




 3    geologists of the State Water Control Board in our  evaluation




 4    of the landfill sites.  What you are assuming here  is that




 5    the States are like EPA, you don't talk  to each other.  We




 g    do talk to each other, and we do know what our programs are.




 7    We do try to stay within what we are supposed to  do and try




 8    to help the other fellow out.




 9              I just don't see that mandating it is going to  help




10    us any.




u              DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Any  other questions?




12               (No response.)




13              DR. SKINNER:  Thank you, Mr. Adams.  We appreciate




14    your comments.




15              Mr. Busbin?




lg              MR. BUSBIN:  Good morning.  My name is  Carey




17    Busbin.  I am an Environmental Licensing Engineer with




is    Southern Company Services, Inc., with specific responsibility




19    in the area of solid waste management.




20              I am appearing today as a representative  of the




21    Utility Solid Waste Activities Group, known as "USWAG," and




22    the Edison Electric Institute.




23              USWAG is a coalition of approximately 45  electric




24    utilities and the Edison Electric Institute, the  principal




25    national association of investor-owned electric light and

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                                                               24
 1    power companies.




 2              USWAG was created  in August   1978,  as  the  suc-




 3    cessor to the Solid Waste  Task Force of Edison's Environment




 4    and Energy Committee.




 5              USWAG and its predecessor have participated




     actively in EPA's efforts  to date  to develop  regulations




     under the Resource Conservation  and Recovery  Act of  1976.




     This involvement reflects  both recognition  that  portions of




 9    these regulations will :.mpact substantially upon the




10    electric power industry and  a commitment to work coopera-




11    tively with EPA to insure  that this important statute is




12    implemented in a reasoneible  manner.




13              With this background,  I  am pleased  to  offer a few




14    of USWAG1s observations on EPA's proposed Guidelines for




15    the Development and Implementation of  State Solid Waste




16    Management Plans under Section 4002 (b)  of RCRA.




17              Since USWAG will file more comprehensive; comments




18    on these proposed Guidelines, I  shall  confine my remarks




19    today to the high points of  our  submission.




20              First, USWAG believes  that the proposed State




21    planning guidelines do not give  the States  the flexibility




     they need, and that Congress intended  them  to have,  in




23    attempting to deal with the  particular non-hazardous solid




24    waste disposal problems in their jurisdictions.




25              The report of the  House  Committee on Interstate

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                                                               25







 l   and Foreign  Commerce  states  explicitly:   "In formulating




 2   a  State plan,  it  is the  Committee's  intention to permit




 3   wide  flexibility  on the  part of  the  State developing such 
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                                                               26






 1              A second example:  RCRA directs EPA to consider in




 2    its Section 4002(b) Guidelines  "the varying regional,




 3    geologic, hydrologic, climatic, and other circumstances




 4    under which different solid waste practices are required  in




 5    order to insure the reasonable  protection of the ground and




 6    surface water from leachate contamination, the reasonable




 7    protection of the quality of the surface waters from surface




 g    runoff contamination, and the reasonable protection of




 9    ambient air quality."  We note  that Congress emphasized




10    reasonable protection of the environment.




11              However, the proposed Criteria, which would be




12    incorporated in these Guidelines, generally would  bar an




13    approved State from locating solid waste disposal  facilities




14    in wetlands in the 100-year flood plains even though local




15    geologic, hydrologic, and other conditions are suoh that




lg    the facility would be operated  in a manner to insure reason-




17    able protection of the environment.




18              USWAG recognis:es the  importance of wetlands,




jg    100-year flood plains arid other "environmentally Sensitive




90    areas."  However, we believe that options short of blanket




2i    exclusions are available to both insure the protection of




22    these areas and to give the States the necessary flexibility




23    to deal with their solid waste  problems.




24              One such option, which we previously have suggest-




25    ed to EPA, is a formal variance procedure whereby  States

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                                                               27







 1    would be able to exempt specific disposal facilities  from




 2    the Criteria upon a showing of a reasonable protection of




 3    the environment.




 4              In summation, USWAG again urges EPA to reevaluate




 5    its proposed Section 4004 Criteria which, when  incorporated




 g    in the Section 4002(b) Guidelines, will not restrict  the




 7    States in formulating acceptable solid waste plans under




 8    RCRA.




 9              This brings me to USWAG's second point of concern,




10    which is also related to the need for State flexibility in




11    solid waste management.




12              We have serious doubts about the appropriateness




13    of proposed Sections 256.20(d) and 256.24(b), which require




14    the States to make use of a permit or registration program




15    to insure that the establishment of a new open  dump   is




16    prohibited and that all solid waste disposal is carried




17    out in compliance with the Section 4004 Criteria.




18              Under these provisions, permits possibly would  be




19    required before any solid waste disposal facility, including




20    the smallest sanitary landfill, could commence  operation.




21              USWAG does not believe this was the intent  of




22    Congress.  While we recognize that RCRA mandates a permit




23    program for hazardous wastes, we do not believe that  Subtitle




24    D gives EPA the authority to require States to  utilize




25    either a permit or registration program in managing

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                                                              28
    non-hazardous wastes.  We; submit that the States should be




    free to select whatever programs they deem necessary, in




    light of their particular problems and circumstances, to




    comply with the requirements of Subtitle D.




              USWAG's third point is an endorsement of EPA's




    requirement that the State plan "provide for a policy and




    strategy for encouragemert of resource recovery and conserva-




    tion activities."




              We wish to point out that in the electric: utility




10   industry, approximately 20 percent of fly ash and bottom




11   ash is today sold commercially for road base, subbctse,




12   structural fill material, and as an additive in concrete.




13             We believe that State plans under Subtitle D should




14   encourage the continued use of such resource recovery efforts.




15             Fourth, USWAG believes that the procedural protec-




16   tions under the proposed closure requirements should be




17   strengthened considerably in order to comply with the require-




18   ments of due process.




19             First, an owner or operator should be notified as




20   soon as it is determined that his facility is under study




21   for possible classification as an open dump.  Second, we feel




22   that the owner-operator should be provided with all of the




23   evidence upon which the classification is based, rather than




24   only with the summary.




25             At this point, I would like to point out a few

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                                                                29
 1   additional provisions of the proposed Guidelines that are




 2   of concern to USWAG and its members,




              We believe that where multiple agencies are in-




    volved in implementing a solid waste management program, the




    State plan should designate a single agency to coordinate the




    administrative process in order to protect persons  from




    inconsistent and duplicative regulation.  We urge EPA to




    include this requirement in its Section 4002(b) Guidelines.




 9             We submit that the proposed State plan approval




10   provisions should provide that notice to a State of plan non-




    compliance, as well as withdrawal of State plan approval,




12   will be published in the Federal Register.




13             USWAG believes that several of the terms defined




14   in the proposed Guidelines need clarification.  For example,




15   the meaning of "properly closed" is unclear.  The use of




16   the phrase "et cetera" in the definition of "facility" is




17   confusing and inappropriate.  The definition of "inventory




18   of open dumps" should specify that the list will be published




19   in the Federal Register.




20             USWAG generally supports EPA's recommendation that




21   the States should have greater authority and control over




22   facility acquisitions.  Our experience has shown that local




23   authorities often are reluctant, or even refuse, to take




24   the necessary steps to obtain and establish adequate new




25   disposal sites.

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                                                               30







 l             Finally, we question the requirement that a State




 2   must hold a public heariig on each permit application.  USWAG




 3   believes that this matter should rest in the discretion of




 4   the States.  We feel that, at most, EPA should require only




 5   that a public hearing be held where the State finds a signif-




 6   icant degree of public interest in the application.




 7             USWAG apprecia-es the opportunity to submit these




 8   comments today.  We will continue to follow with i-nterest




 9   EPA's efforts to implement the Resource Conservation and




10   Recovery Act.




11             DR. SKINNER:  Thank you, Mr. Busbin.  Are there




12   any questions?  Susan?




13             MS. ABSHER:  You stated you thought it was inap-




14   propriate for the State planning Guidelines to require the




15   State to have a permit or registration program.




16             My question to you is, how would you suggest that




17   the State insure that new open dumps are prohibited, as the




18   Act requires, if this isn't done under a permit or registra-




19   tion program?




20             MR. BUSBIN:  AEI best I remember, the way it is




21   stated, that          an inventory be made.  That does place




22   responsibility upon someone to do an inventory at that partic-




23   ular point in time.




24             If you require a permit, what you are actually doing




25   is saying the State does not need to make an inventory.  It

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                                                               31
    will tell everybody to come  in.   It will cause  it  to be  an




    action enforcing type situation.  Whereas,  I don't think that




    is mandated under non-hazardous wastes.  It is  mandated  under




    the hazardous wastes program.




              So, in effect, what you are saying is somebody do




    an inventory, but then you turn around and  saying  everybody




    apply for a permit.  So, you are  not, in effect, causing an




    inventory to be made by the State or Federal agency.




 9             DR. SKINNER:  The inventory would be  oriented




10   towards existing sites.  The permit program would  also apply




11   to sites before they were actually operated.  Would you  care




12   to comment on, in short of a permit program or  a registration




13   program, how you could effectively deal with preventing




14   unacceptable facilities from being started?




15             MR. BUSBIN:  I really hadn't addressed that com-




16   pletely other than our comments were reflecting the point




17   that we considered this to actually consider operating




18   facilities.  Probably you could address it under your MPDES




19   permit program would be my thought from off the top of my




20   head.




21             DR. SKINNER:  Are there any other questions?   David?




22             MR. O'BRIEN:  You mentioned in relation  to flood




23   plains and wetlands, perhaps a formal variance  procedure




24   would be useful.  I am wondering  exactly what you  meant  by




25   that.  Is that during the inventory process, there should be

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10





11





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16





17





18





19





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24





25
                                                               32
some procedure incorporated into that process, or also during




the permitting of new sites, should there be some sort of




formal procedure incorporated in the State program, permit




registration program?  Also, could you expand upon what you




mean — well, I am asking you to expand upon a little bit




what the Act says and what you interpret a showing of reason-




able protection of the environment to mean in this case.




So, there ore really three questions there.




          MR. BUSBIN:  Well, let's see, I think I will start




with the first one.  Basically, any time you come up with a




one-sentence exclusion, it does not fit the entire country.




There are obviously areais of the country that it is inappro-




priate.  I think that technically, I don't know where the




variance procedure should come in, but obviously, it will




need to be considered.  You cannot just say "no 100-year




flood plains and no wetlands," and then go to an airea like




Louisiana, where a goodly portion of some of the major cities




are beneath sea level.




          I do not know technically, where you would insert




a variance procedure in there.  I think that would be more




administrative than the theory of it.




          MR. O'BRIEN:  So, your comments addressed established




sites, as well as proposed new sites?




          MR. BUSBIN:  Yas.  I think our comments would have




to address both.  At this particular point in time, as I read

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                                                                33






    these regulations, those particular classifications would




    cause almost every facility in New Orleans or in the State




    of Louisiana to be designated as an open dump in an inventory.




    Without a variance procedure, in fact, it could cause a  shift




    from all solid wastes to Texas or Mississippi.  That is  my




    opinion.




              DR. SKINNER:  I have a question on your comment




    with respect to adoption of the 4004 Criteria in the State




    plan.  Section 4003 of the Act, which sets forth the minimum




10   requirements for approval of State plans, says the State plan




11   shall prohibit the establishment of new open dumps.  It




12   also says the State plan shall provide for the closing and




13   upgrading of all existing open dumps.




14             The definition of "open dumps" given in the Act




15   is a site for disposal of solid waste which is not a sanitary




16   landfill within the meaning of Section 4004.




17             How, in the face of such very strong, and I believe,




lg   clear language, that an open dump is a facility which does




19   not comply with Section 4004, could a State prohibit open




20   dumps without adopting the 4004 Criteria?




2i             MR. BUSBIN:  Since you read that, I would like to




22   go back to the other question about the permit system, too.




23   That particular point basically states that the State shall




24   not require, or shall not allow, the establishment of new




25   open dumps.  It does not say by use of a permit or registratior

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                                                              34
    system.   I think it would be specific if the Act would have




    specifically stated thai point,  as it did in the hazardous




    section,  which means to me, the  State shall have the ability




    to choose how they would like to eliminate open dumps.  If it




    is a permit system, it should be of their choice, not at




    your direction.




              DR. SKINNER:  The second question was on the




    adoption  of the 4004 Criteria in the State plan.  I pointed




    out that  one of the requirements is that they prohibit open




10   dumps,  and open dumps are defined in the Act by the Congress




11   as facilities which do rot comply with the 4004 Criteria.




12             Your statement was that you felt it was inappropriate




13   for us  to require the States to  adopt the 4004 Criteria as




14   part of the State plan.  I was pointing out the fact that I




15   believe that the Act says that we must, and perhaps if you




16   feel differently, you could explain why.




17             MR. BUSBIN:  Well, I think it goes back to the




18   comments  on the variance procedures.  If you require them




19   to adopt  the 100-year flaod plain and certain wetland provis-




20   ions as a blanket thing, without variance, then in fact you




21   preclude  several States from the disposal of solid wastes.




22   In fact,  then they have ;io solid waste plan or, at the very




23   least,  you may find a few areas  within their State political




24   boundaries that they can dispose of wastes.




25             So, with the variance procedure, I would think that.

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                                                               35
    in fact, the 4004 Criteria could be used.




              DR. SKINNER:  I think your comments are really, then




    about the 4004 Criteria themselves, on whether or not there




    should be a variance procedure in those Criteria themselves,




    rather than whether the State should have to pick them up.




              MR. BUSBIN:  In other words, what I am saying is




    that if you use 4002(b) and then tell them they have to use




    4004 without a variance, you, in effect, cut off several areas




    of the country from disposal of any wastes.  I think that that




10   is a point that needs to be addressed.  I know that it is not




11   pertinent to central United States, but in coastal areas,




12   it is important.




13             DR. SKINNER:  Are there any other questions?  Anne?




H             MS. ALLEN:  Along that line, I just wanted to make




15   sure that you are not finding authority for not including




16   the 4004 as much as you disagree with the 4004.




17             MR. BUSBIN:  I think I would rather not answer that




18   one right now.  I am not sure if I have a good answer for




19   it.  I think the 4004 Criteria, as they stand, are basically,




20   we feel, unacceptable.  They are too matter of fact, and they




21   don't cover two specific instances.  As the inclusion of the




    State plans, what you are asking me is whether or not we




23   would prefer the State to make their own definition of what




24   an open dump is, or use the Federal definition.  I am not




25   sure I can really answer that now.

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                                                               36
 1             DR.  SKINNER:   David?




 2             MR.  O'BRIEN:   VThat did you have in mind when you




 3   mentioned that the State plan should designate a lead agency




    to coordinate  the administrative process?




 5             MR.  BUSBIN:  Well, I am sure you realize that this




 6   one has a lot  of overlapping implications, RCRA does.  Your




 7   definition basically covers matter, which it probably should




    have been stated that way.




 9             In an instance where you are required to get a




10   permit from a  State agency, as the gentleman from Virginia




11   said, there are many ageicies that feel they may have juris-




12   diction over certain sections.




13             Whether or not you have got an MPDES permit on




14   a discharge from a pond 'ihat, in fact, has some solid mate-




15   rials in it, when you get these overlapping things, we would




16   like to see us deal with one agency, rather than f.Lve or six




    agencies.




is             It is very hard when you get into these requirements




19   of public hearings and so forth, you end up with the traveling




20   road show going around arid around because each agency within




21   the State wants a public hearing on the matter.




              If you had one agency, it would simplify considerabl;




23   our application process, with the other agencies directing




24   their thoughts into their own system, rather than us trying




25   to work with a half a dozen different independent agencies

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                                                                37







    within a State.   If one was designated  as  a  lead  agency,  then




    we could go to that one agency and  say,  "Please coordinate




    your own people and provide the  information,  that we  are




    providing you, to them,"and then come back to us  through




    one point, rather than this shotgun affair where  we are




    going to everybody and end up with  the  same  public hearing




    over and over and over.




              MR. O'BRIEN:  I was wondering if you were addressing




    the one-stop shopping concept within the solid waste  agency




10   itself, or within overall, all environmental programs.




11             MR. BUSBIN:   Well, I  am  sure if you have looked




12   in.this coordination, which some comments  came out, in




13   4002 (b), with all the agencies and  sections  of specific Acts,




14   in the Federal end of it you want coordination with.  We




15   would also like to see a clearinghouse  for Federal coordina-




16   tion, when you come to the Federal  agencies.   My  guess is,




17   right off the top of my head, you want  coordination with




18   maybe 15 different Federal agencies in  4002(b), which, in




19   fact, requires us to go to 15 different agencies, as  well as




20   State agencies.




21             We would like to see one  agency  with the Federal




22   Government, that  can work in-house, and coordinate USGS,




23   Corps of Engineers, HUD, and all these  other agencies up




24   here.  We end up  building an enormous staff  doing the same




25   thing that we think that you should do.

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                                                               38






 j             DR.  SKINNER:   So,  you are generally in support of




 2   a concept where there i;j a single agency or a single permit,




 3   where an industry could go to a single point in EPA or in the




 4   Federal Government and obtain all the permit requirements,




 5   and perhaps obtain his permit from that agency after meeting




 6   those requirements?




 7             MR.  BUSBIN:  ] would think yes, we would like the




 g   one-point contact.  But, then again, if this one point is




 9   going to become an impediment, if you can't get your one




10   point to work,  we will just continue with our shotgun




n   approach, and we will cover everybody.




12             DR.  SKINNER:   Any other questions?




13             (No response.)




u             DR.  SKINNER:   Thank you, Mr. Busbin.




15             The next speaker is Mr. Chris Stotler.




16             MR.  STOTLER:   3ood morning.  My name is Chris




17   Stotler.  I am Chief of the Division of Planning and Technical




18   Assistance,   Office of L.ind Pollution Control, Ohio Environ-




19   mental Protection Agency,




20             U.S.   ^PA should be congratulated on the development




21   of these Guidelines.  They are greatly improved from earlier




22   drafts.  Most requirements and recommendations are realistic




23   and achievable, that is, assuming funding continues and




24   improves.




95             The organization of the Guidelines is much better

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                                                            39






than most guidelines we have read in the Federal Register




in the past.




          Although overall our Office views these Guidelines




favorably, there are several concerns and questions we have




about specific sections, and there are one or two items we




oppose.  These specific comments follow. Sectionswhich I




will not be commenting on, in general, we haven't really found




a problem with them yet.




          Before I do get into the specific comments, I would




like to agree with the gentleman from the State of Virginia




on his comments about State grants being consolidated under




some grandiose scheme.  I feel that generally, that would




probably hurt our program.  Also, some of his comments con-




cerning hazardous wastes, we are in agreement with.




          We are currently evaluating what is needed in terms




of a hazardous wastes program, and it is really up to our




legislature to act upon our recommendations and the recom-




mendations of our consultants on that.




          I would hate to see a plan that if the legislature




and everybody else said it is in the best interests of the




State not to get into the hazardous waste program, that,




therefore, your whole planning process, indeed, has been




killed,if  in fact, your plan is that you shouldn't get into




it.  I don't anticipate that happening in Ohio, but I think




it is something that some States, it is in their best interests

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25
                                                              40
 not to get into the haz
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                                                               41







    us some type of a time frame, what you are really expecting




    from the States, and not make it sound like everything has




 3   to be done in the 18-month period.




 4             Also, in 256.03, subparagraph  (e), how often




 5   should plans, especially local plans be revised?  I don't




    think you referred to local substate plans on the revision.




    We are also concerned about adequate funds for such revisions.




    We have heard rumors that everybody isn't in agreement on




    the Continuing funding of Subtitle D beyond the next couple




10   of years.




              We urge the continuation of funding of revision




12   of local plans.




13             In 256.06, the definitions of "planning" and




14   "implementation" are better here than in the Act.  Also, in




15   your discussion section and preamble to the Guidelines,




    essentially your definitions of "planning" and "implementa-




17   tion" are consistent with ours.




18             We still have the problem that the definition of




19   "construction" in the Act is not consistent, and is really




2o   what we define as planning.  In other words, the Act excludes




21   some things which we consider planning.  I strongly encourage




22   you to work, as we are trying to work, with our Congressmen




23   in getting the oversight hearings to correct the situation




24   on the definition of "construction."




25             In 256.10, detailed definition of responsibilities

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                                                               42






 1   concerning all areas of solid waste management and between




 2   local government, designated planning and implementation




 3   agencies and the private1, sector is of little value at this




 4   stage, and would be very difficult and confusing to local




 5   governments.




 6             This wording sounds too much like 208.  We suggest




 7   the best solution to this is the development, of a memorandum




 8   of understanding between planning agencies and major govern-




 9   ment units or implementation agencies.




10             The MOU's are developed by the local agencies to




11   address their concerns on the assigning of responsibilities.




!2   Now, as they define "locally," who is going to be responsible




13   for what in terms of the planning work and the implementation?




14             They would follow the broad categories of responsi-




15   bility the State assigned earlier in the designation process.




ig   They are most important where resource recovery projects




17   are being planned.  Any tiling further is not needed until the




18   local problems and plans are better defined.




19             We don't really want to get into the situation of




20   having to — at this stage, it may sound like we are telling




21   every local government which individual unit of that local




22   government is supposed to take care of collection, and so




23   forth.  It is already well-defined and understood locally.




24   So, we really don't thinl< that is necessary.




25             We do encourage- and, in fact, we require it in the

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25
                                                            43







State of Ohio, the development  of  a memorandum  of  understand-




ing.  I think that meets your purpose.




          Some of the same comments apply  to  256.10.   There




is just too much detail expected here — excuse me —  256.11




involves the same comments as made on 256.10.




          In 256.20 and 256.21, most of these requirements




and recommendations are realistic  and needed.   Although we




support these elements, it may  take several years  to obtain




all the needed legislation to comply.




          In 256.21(d)(4), requiring all facilities to be in




conformance with the plans, it  should pertain only to  new




facilities.  You don't really have a grandfather clause in




there.  Although this section is valuable, it is going to be




very difficult to sell to local governments and State




legislatures.




          In 256.22(e), does this  mean only facilities with




no alternatives are given compliance schedules? Elsewhere,




in 256.22 (g), it sounds like all facilities can receive




compliance schedules of up to five years.




          If the first is true, how soon after  publication




of the list of open dumps do the dumps with alternatives




have to close?




          In 256.22(g), including  all the  compliance schedule




information in the annual work program will make annual




State grant proposals unnecessarily bulky.  I don't think you

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 i   really want all those compliance schedules every year.




 2             In 256.23, the term "evaluated" is confusing.  The




 3   Act says all sites must be evaluated.  If the intent is




 4   "detailed evaluation," -.hen insert the word "detailed."  Who




 5   must evaluate whether there are alternative sites, the opera-




 6   tor or the State?  Who pays for it, the operator of the State?




 7   Could this be the responsibility of the substate units in




 8   evaluating alternatives?




 9             In 256.30, the: procurement requirements will be




10   hard to achieve and, therefore, this section should not be




11   required until after the publication of the 6002(e) regula-




12   tions, which I think you mentioned earlier you intend to do.




13             Also, this should only apply to the State.  It




14   should not be carried on through to the local substate units




15   that may receive pass-through funds in the future.  We are




16   having enough trouble trying to do something at the State




17   level without trying to mandate anything at the local level.




18             In 256.31, in general, there is a little too much




19   detail in these recommendations.  For example, the review of




20   local legislation and conducting waste composition studies




21   and some of these other things are awfully time-consuming




22   and costly, and may not be of that much value for many




23   areas of the State.




24             Under Subpart E, much of the work expected in




25   facility planning cannot be completed until after the inventor

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is complete.  This subpart has greatest  impact on  local




planning agencies.  This subpart  is really needed  more than




many other subparts in these Guidelines, and needs to be




funded over the next five years.




          We oppose requiring all funding for hazardous waste




facility planning coming from Subtitle D.  We would like  to




see hazardous waste facility planning fundable under Subtitle




C, especially when you consider the limited funding that




Subtitle D has received compared  to some other Federal programs




of lesser beneficial impact, and, well, even compared to




Subtitle C itself.




          It should be to the discretion of the State as




how that would be handled on the  funding, and an agreement




between the State and the regional office.




          In 256.42, both (b) and (c), dealing with the




providing of facilities, we strongly support this  as an




activity of substate units, and have given it our  highest




priority for "pass-through" funding.  This need emphasizes




the need for increased funding of Subtitle D over  the next




four and five years to enable the completion of the local




plans.




          In 256.42(e)  and (f) , the State cannot require




local governments to obtain facilities.  However,  a stronger




State role, as recommended,  may be desirable, especially  if ii




is interpreted in terms of assisting local governments in

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 l   obtaining sites.




 2             In (g) of the same section, what financial assist-




 3   ance is referred to here?  It sounds like you are referring




 4   to a construction grants program.  If this is only really




 5   referring to rural assistance, so state it.




 6             in 256.43, and other sections dealing with hazardous




 7   waste,  I think I made the; comment earlier it should be the




 8   choice  of the State working with the Regional Administrator.




 9             In Subpart G, the amount of public participation,




10   hearings, meetings, et cetera, takes a considerable: amount




11   of time and money.  I don't think Headquarters staff always




12   realizes what you are doing to the States.  It is going to be




13   very difficult to meet many of these deadlines, and even




14   more difficult if we have to comply with all the public




15   participation requirements.




16             In 256.63, the Office of Land Pollution Control,




17   Ohio EPA, strongly opposes requiring public hearings before




is   the issuance of all facility permits.  Ohio law currently




19   provides for meetings or hearings if justified requests or




20   sufficient interest is shown.




21             We do advertise all proposed actions, whether they




22   be an approval or a denia] of a permit, and provide for a




23   response period.  It is hard enough to get facilities approved




24   without waving any red flags such as what you are really doing




25   when you hold a public hearing quite often.

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          I will be glad to answer any questions.




          DR. SKINNER:  Thank you, Mr. Stotler.  Are there




any questions?




          MR. O'BRIEN:  I have a question.  You suggested




that the wording in 256.10, related to identification,




that part of it or the whole section was much  like  208.




As an alternative, you addressed memorandums of understanding




that are now in use in Ohio.




          Could you expand on both of those points  a little




bit?  What are those memorandums of understanding and




exactly what is your problem with the wording?




          MR. STOTLER:  The wording sounds like we  have to




go through essentially less or assign who is responsible




for collection, transfer stations, disposal of all  types




of wastes, and stuff like that.  And, generally, it is every




local unit of government has the authority to do the majority




of those things you speak of, you know, the lists of types




of wastes and types of activities.  We really don't see that




as being necessary, to actually go into the detail  of assign-




ing all of these responsibilities.




          When we designate agencies, we designate  them for




solid waste management planning, and the implementation




agencies primarily for solid waste disposal.  However, we




weren't specific in the wording, just for disposal.




          The most important thing in terms of the  memorandum

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 l   of understanding is this Ls an agreement drawn up between




 2   the designated planning agency and the implementation agency




 3   or any local government which is subdesignated for planning




 4   work.   In Ohio, we have actually subdesignations, where we




 5   may have them all like county planning agencies as a designat-




 6   ed agency, but the individual county group will actually do




 7   some of the planning in that county, or a majority of the




 8   planning.




 9             So, the memorandum of understanding is a document




10   which explains who is responsible for what work, how monies




11   would flow locally if we are in a pass-through situation,




12   and how the implementation  is being interpreted.




13             I think this is especially useful where we: have got




14   metropolitan areas, where we are talking about, resource




15   recovery facilities being built, so we can identify a lead




16   agency.  It is also a nice way of avoiding getting into




17   some real political fights locally.




18             MR. O'BRIEN:  So, these memorandums of understanding




19   would occur previous to the actual planning?




20             MR. STOTLER:  Yes, we require the MOU's before




21   any monies would go to the substate unit for the planning.




22   This was something I think I commented earlier on, under




23   the urban waste program, as being a way of defining who




24   should be doing the work, say, in the urban waste programs.




25             MR. O'BRIEN:  And the implementing agencies are

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                                                               49
agreeing to carry out the planning at the regional  level?




          MR. STOTLER:  A person, who is designated as an




implementation agency, may be involved in doing some of the




planning within your jurisdiction.  If that is the  case, it




would be defined in the MOU.




          DR. SKINNER:  I have a question.  Your comment about




the fact that the State plan cannot be developed within 18




months in order to comply with all of the requirements of




the Guidelines.




          The Guideline itself discusses setting priorities




and laying out what can be done.  The preamble discussed time




phasing of planning, and indicates that it would be difficult




to completely fulfill the requirements of the Guidelines in




the near term.




          It talks about the time phasing of planning,




regulatory program implementation, and facility implementa-




tion.  Does that get at your concern?




          MR. STOTLER:  The only thing is, yes, in  the




preamble maybe it discussed it, but in the actual Guidelines




themselves —




          DR. SKINNER:  You feel that the wording should be




clearer?




          MR. STOTLER:  I think it should be stated a little




clearer in there.  It is nice to read the preamble  of these




things to try to figure out, you know, how you are  interpreting

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                                                                50







 i   what you said in the Guidelines/ but when you get right down




 2   to trying to get legislation and writing things, we have to




 3   go and look at just what is in the body of the Guidelines.




 4             DR. SKINNER:  On your comments, or I guess it was




 5   a question, on whether open dumps with alternatives would




 6   have to be closed.  If you look at Section 256.23 (c), when




 7   we discuss alternatives, we mention that alternatives include




 8   upgrading the open dump.  Does that clarify that point, that




 9   a facility does have the option of upgrading itself, and we




10   are talking about an alternative to the open clump, which




11   should be a facility that was brought into compliance, not




12   necessarily another site?




13             MR. STOTLER:  Okay.  I think there is still some




14   question in here on the wording between when a compliance




15   schedule is issued.  We have interpreted any open dump can




16   receive a compliance schedule.




17             DR. SKINNER:  Can?




18             MR. STOTLER:  Can receive a compliance schedule.




19             DR. SKINNER:  Yes.




20             MR. STOTLER:  And the compliance schedule is either




21   upgrade or close regardless of whether there is an alternative




22   site or not.  That is the rtay we want to interpret it.




23             DR. SKINNER:  Do you feel that the Guidelines don't




24   allow that?




25             MR. STOTLER:  I ,im not sure that they do because  at

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one point it says only where no alternatives have been found




do you give them a compliance schedule.




          MS. ABSHER:  Ves, but it leaves the determination




of those alternatives up to the State agency, the final




determination as to whether there is an alternative, and the




Guidelines list considerations for that.  It actually will




be the State making that determination.
              MR. STOTLER:  Maybe I misunderstood your definition




    of "alternatives" there, not that you are referring to




    alternative sites.




              DR. SKINNER:  I think we should make that clear.




              Anne?




              MS. ALLEN:  I just wanted to clarify a point.  Under




    256.42, did I understand you to say that you think that the




    States should limit its involvement in facility siting to




    perhaps passing-through monies?




              MR. STOTLER:  256.42?




              MS. ALLEN:  The facility development, the role of




    the State in assuring new facilities(involving the private




    sector, whatever.  Did you limit your own testimony to




21   passing-through monies, just financial support?




22             MR. STOTLER:  We believe in the siting of facilities




23   planning for whether they are going to be running out of room




24   in three to five years, whatever, that is primarily the




25   responsibility of the local substate unit to plan for the

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    facility and to provide for a facility.  If I am sure I am




    looking at the right section —




 3             MS. ALLEN:  Right, you are.




 4             MR. STOTLER:  Wo do not require the local government,




    to say, "Look, local government, you have got two years of




    life remaining.  You must find a site."  We cannot do that,




    and I don't think we will ever get any legislation passed




    where we can mandate that.  What we can do is get them to




    develop a plan, give them financial support so they can do




10   a facility plan, and determine what is needed so the.y can get i|t.




ll             They have the authority in the State, through either




12   the municipality or the county, of appropriating property for




13   a facility if they can't get the private sector involved or




14   things like that.




15             That is the way we see it.  We can assist them, but




16   we can't mandate that a site be selected, and I don't think




17   we ever want to get into tiat situation.




18             MS. ALLEN:  Thaac you.




19             DR. SKINNER:  Other questions?  I have one or two




20   more.  You said you opposed hearings on all permits and




21   that you hold hearings only if there is sufficient interest,




22   and that obviously raises a question as to who determines




23   when interest is sufficient.




24             Could you comment on a requirement, if the require-




25   ment was reworded, to hold hearings on permit upon request?

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              MR. STOTLER:  Well, it depends on where we are in




    the review situation as to whether the situation on signif-




    icant interest comes in, whether we hold a public meeting or




    a public hearing.




              When the Director makes final actions, that is, the




    denial or approval, that is published.  At that point, any-




    body that is affected by that decision has a chance to request




    an adjudication hearing, an administrative hearing, anybody




    who is affected by that decision.




10             That type of language, we would go along with.




11             DR. SKINNER:  Even a single request of an affected




12   party?




13             MR. STOTLER:  Even a single request.  We don't




14   like that entirely because you get some people that object




15   to everything.  We would like to see really a better definitior




16   of aggrieved parties in there.




17             DR. SKINNER:  I just have a comment on a point,




18   that you raised, for your information.  You mentioned that you




19   felt the "construction" definition was troublesome.  We




20   agree that the "construction definition," taken  with the




21   "implementation" and "planning" definitions are somewhat




22   confusing.




23             We recently sent a memo to your regional office,




24   Region V, which I think might help you in that regard.  In




25   any case, the State planning Guidelines will define what

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                                                                54







 1   planning is and what implementation is, and what activities




 2   are eligible for financial assistance for planning purposes




 3   and implementation purposes.  So, that should be the document




 4   which you referred to, and that will, hopefully, try and sort




 5   out some of those confusing points in the law.




 6             MR. STOTLER:  I am glad for that memo.




 7             DR. SKINNER:  Ara there any other questions?




 8             (No response.)




 g             DR. SKINNER:  Th.ink you.




10             Why don't we take a short break, and if we can come




11   back at 10:45, we can begin again.




12             (Whereupon, a short recess was taken.)




13             DR. SKINNER:  The next speaker is David Johnson.




14   Is he here?




15             (No response.)




IB             DR. SKINNER:  John Dunn?




17             MR. DUNN:  Good morning, ladies, gentlemen,, col-




18   leagues.  I am J. J. Dunn, Jr., Executive Secretary of the




19   Institute for Solid Waste, of the American Public Works




20   Association.




21             Thank you very much for the opportunity to come




22   and speak to you this morning.  I am able to report siome




23   preliminary conclusions of our Executive Council on the




24   proposed State Planning Guidelines.  We will be preparing




25   final comments by the written deadline date of November  27.

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So, I don't have a copy for you to read from today, but




comments, hopefully, will be pithy, to the point, and short.




          We discussed the proposed Guidelines at a meeting




of our Executive Council on October 18th, in Boston.  Our




first observation — and these are not necessarily in order




of priority, but just in random order — the first observa-




tion is on Section 256.63 — I think I have the number right




— which requires a permit —-  a public hearing for every




permit issued by a State.




          This particular paragraph was somewhat of a surprise




as it did not appear, to our recollection, in previous drafts




that we had reviewed.




          The requirement for a public hearing on every




disposal facility permit issued may contribute .unnecessarily




to the paperwork and the red tape at a State level.  Several




states have administrative procedures which require an oppor-




tunity for a public hearing on every permit, but only a




public hearing held when either requested or when it is




necessary.




          This eliminates hearings for permitting facilities




which have no adverse impacts and which have attracted no




public attention.  We think that this may contribute substan-




tially to efficiency in the State permitting processes.




          We are concerned that, improperly administered,




the related implications for State permit processes may be

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                                                               56
 1   overly complicated and add significantly to the amount of




 2   time involved in implementation at the local level.




 3             My second comment is positive in nature.  ISW is




    pleased that the Guidelines remain silent on how precisely




    priorities should be set .:or the solid waste disposal facility




    inventory.  We recognize that priorities are essential to the




    conduct of this inventory,, and we urge that the Federal Govern-




    ment not recommend particular priorities; tnis, because we




 9   are certain that priorities will vary from dtate to state,




10   and region to region, and that a national set of priority




11   categories would be a Procrustean bed into which no state




12   would comfortably fit.




13             However, on the question of the inventory itself,




14   we do recommend that it be phased in a manner similcir to




15   standard engineering practices in construction.  Thcit is,




16   that a courtesy inspectior or a windshield inspection of




17   a facility be made, with any violations or deviations from




18   the landfill criteria noted, and that this information be




19   communicated as quickly as possible to the facility owner-




20   operator, with a time period allowed to bringing the facility




21   into compliance.




22             This would permit each State to allocate time to




23   those less tractable facilities.  This type of procedure,




24   which we consider similar to a pre-final inspection, or




25   punch list, would provide for some due process considerations.

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                                                           57






          Our third observation we have  is that  the  State




planning Guidelines require an acceptable State  plan to  ack-




knowledge and coordinate all of the various regulatory programs




that may affect land disposal facilities.  I  refer here  to




paragraph 256.50.




          This is certainly a commendable instruction and  one




that should be adhered to as religiously as possible.  We




think, however, that the Guidelines should require each




acceptable State plan to go a step further,and create some




procedure whereby an applicant, be he public  or  private, for




a permit to operate a land disposal facility, will have  a




single place to go to determine all of the requirements  that




relate to that particular application.




          These requirements should be set out in such a




fashion that the applicant can perceive, at a single time,




all of the steps necessary to successful compliance  with all




applicable State and Federal regulations.




          The Institute urges that the States not be allowed




to merely require coordination of various laws and regulations




without creating a mechanism whereby this coordination can be




accomplished.




          I heard the phrase earlier this morning, a one-stop




shop, and that is what we are talking about.  The specter  of




having to go to several places to get what amounts to several




permit for a land disposal facility is one that  is becoming

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                                                               58
more real each day.   In  tne  state  in which I live,  it is very




close to being a reality iow.




          Our fourth  comment is  on the  general area of com-




pliance and notice.   The Tnstitute notes  that the Guidelines




do not presently require -:hat  an acceptable State plan contain




some procedure for the removal of  a facility from the List




of open dumps.




          Equity would appear  to require  that the accomplish-




ment of compliance for a ifacility  be promulgated no less




vigorously than the initieil  noncompliance.




          Our fifth comment  is on  Section 256.22.  We think




that this section requires each and every  compliance schedule




in any particular state  negotiated by that state, to be a




part of the plan and  its subsequent approval and adoption.




          If this is, in fact, the intention of this para-




graph, it would appear to severely limit  the flexibility of




the State and significantly  impede timely progress in the




improvement of solid  waste management.




          It may be that that  section doesn't mean that, and




we certainly hope it  doesn't,  and  we would like to have that




section clarified.




          As I indicated at  the  beginning of my comments,




these are our preliminary observations, and we will be making




detailed comments in  writing before your  closing date.




          That is the end of my  prepared  statement, and I

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                                                               59
 1   will answer any questions




 2             DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Are there any questions?




    I have a question on the requirement for public hearing on




    every permit.  Would you comment on a concept of a requirement




    for a public hearing on every permit by request by an




    aggrieved or an affected party?




              MR. DUNN:  No.  The wording that you used the




    first time you asked that question, John, to the gentleman




    from Ohio, seemed more appropriate.  I am trying to recall




10   what it was.  But what we are trying to say is that the




11   opportunity for a public hearing should certainly be allowed




12   every time a permit is issued, I think in advance of the




13   issuance of the permit.




14             But there are situations, and immediately there




15   comes to mind the situation of the renewal of a permit for




16   an operating facility, where a hearing is really not appropriat




17   and not necessary.  So, what we are saying is that the plan




18   should allow to require the State to create an opportunity,




19   that is to say, to offer an opportunity for a public hearing




20   in advance of the issuance of the permit.  The public hearing




21   opportunity decision can be made by the State, either if




22   there is a particular controversy about a site, or if there




23   is a request, you know, a reasonable request.




24             I don't think you need to constrain it any more




25   than that.

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                                                               60







 1             DR. SKINNER:  Fine.  Are there any other questions?




 2   Susan?




 3             MS. ABSHER:  I would like to refer to your comment




 4   on the compliance schedules for facilities.  The Guidelines




 5   state that these shall be referenced in the annual work




 6   program, which the State s.ubmits for its grant.  They are




 7   not part of the State plan and not subject to approval under




 8   the State plan.




 9             MR. DUNN:  Good.  I am glad I didn't understand




10   that right.




11             DR. SKINNER:  Any other questions?




12              (No response.)




13             DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.




14             Mr. Edwards?




15             MR. EDWARDS:  I am J. Rodney Edwards, Vice President




16   American Paper Institute.




17             I am delighted to have this opportunity to present




18   this brief but important statement on waste paper recycling




19   in the United States as it relates to resource recovery and




20   solid waste management programs at the local level.




21             The point I wish to make is that in all solid waste




22   management programs, based on resource recovery, that is the




23   recovery of recyclable materials from municipal solid waste,




24   there should be a priority for source separation of  re-




25   cyclable waste paper.  Was-;e paper recycling is a large and

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                                                               61
expanding industry, and waste paper recycling mills must




have continued access to waste paper supply to survive.




          In 1977, the waste paper recycling industry col-




lected 16.4 million tons of waste paper, of which about 11




million tons was post-consumer waste paper.  All of this waste




paper was source separated from other solid waste, kept clean,




and collected separately for recycling in this country or for
export.
          The collection rate in 1977 was 25 percent of all
the paper consumed in this country.  This is a factor that is




frequently overlooked.  Let me state it again.  Of all the




paper consumed in the United States last year, 25 percent was




source separated and collected for recycling.




          In any resource recovery program where municipal




solid waste is to be incinerated to recover its energy value,




those managing the program tend to want to maximize the



"put-through" of the combustible components in municipal




solid waste.




          Waste paper is by far the largest combustible com-



ponent.  Therefore, as resource recovery programs are being




developed, there must be a priority to preserve source




separation programs for the recyclable waste paper.




          In some cases, municipal or regional resource




recovery programs have attempted to preclude separate col-




lection of recyclable waste paper, either by local ordinance,

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                                                               62
    contracts, or in arrangements for financing, waste paper




    collection has been precluded.




              Sometimes preclusion of source separation of re-




    cyclable waste paper is included in the consulting engineer's




    proposal to the resource recovery authority.  Let me just




    quote from one such proposal, under the heading "Waste Most




    Valuable as Fuel."




              "Separation and recycling of paper from mixed solid




    wastes is economically unwarranted.  The waste paper has a




10   much higher value as fuel than as a raw material for re-




11   cycling paper.  In addition, the advent of tree farms and




12   genetic improvements in tree stock assures the supply of




13   raw material for increasing paper consumption well into the




14   future.  It seems far wiser to recycle paper as fuel to offset




15   our nonrenewable fossil fi.els that are being consumed."




16             Frequently, neither the consulting engineers not




17   city officials are aware cf the paper recycling industry that




18   exists in their area.  Frequently, incineration of solid waste




19   is labeled recycling of solid wastes.  We feel this tends to




20   discourage those millions of Americans who currently source




21   separate waste paper for recycling.




22             There are over 1,500 waste paper dealers in the




23   United States located in and around urban areas, and they




24   act as the recycling centers for the paper industry.  They




25   buy waste paper from collectors and sell it to recycling

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                                                           63
mills.  There  are  some  700 paper and paperboard mills  in the




United States  and  almost every mill uses  some recycled waste




paper.  Two hundred of  these mills depend exclusively  on




waste paper as their raw material supply  and depend on local




source separation  programs.




          Last year about 30 percent or 3.1 million tons of




all the old newspapers  that were discarded after they  were




read, were collected separately from other refuse, for  recycl-




ing.  Also, a  little over 30 percent of the used corrugated




boxes in this  country were separated from other wastes at




retail stores, factories and commercial buildings, and




collected separately to be recycled.  These two post-consumer




grades should  continue  to be removed where a market exists




rather than incinerated to recover their  energy value.




          Of course, for some waste papers and in some




regions, recycling may  not be economical, and in these cases,




incineration may have a higher economic priority.  Recycling




waste paper is normally utilizing waste paper at its highest




economic value.




          Also, as EPA  studies point out, when the waste paper




that can be recycled is removed from solid waste, prior to




incineration,  the  BTU content of solid waste is reduced only




by a factor of 5 percent or less.




          As the demand for waste paper increases, solid waste




authorities should be informed that the economics are  much

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                                                              64







    more favorable toward recycling than toward incineration,




    and if the future demand for waste paper continues to increase,




    where currently it is being incinerated, it should be allowed




    to be source separated From the waste stream for recycling.




              It is also important to point out that, as the




    demand for waste paper .Increases from the mills located in




    the United States, the demand is also increasing From mills




    located overseas.  In 1!>77, 1.5 million tons of the 16.4




    million tons collected were exported to countries in Asia,




IQ   Europe, and South America.




              In August of 2978, exports were running at the




12   level of 2 million tons per year.  August wets the largest




13   month for shipments, and in that month about. 178,000 tons




    were shipped overseas.




15             Export demand will continue to increase as the




    economy in foreign countries strengthen and new capacity to




    recycle waste paper is added.  Many foreign countries are




18   informing us of their future needs for waste paper, and as




ig   the United States is the only major exporting country for




20   waste paper in the world, they will be looking to us to




21   collect waste paper and to export it to them.




22             We think it is most important that EPA establish




23   a priority for source separation of recyclable waste paper




24   in the form of a public statement that we, in the paper




25   recycling industry, can use to talk to State, regional, and

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 l   local solid waste officials.




 2             Under Section D, subparagraph  (e)(4), we support




 3   the identification — we think that you  should support in




 4   finite language the ongoing source separation programs for




 5   waste paper collection.




 6             Also, we just note that in the Guidelines for




 7   financial assistance, under paragraph  (j), we would always




 8   prefer that the words "material recovery" precede the words




 9   "energy recovery," so that we put a higher priority on




10   recycling than burning.




11             We urge EPA to continue to develop municipal col-




12   lection programs for old newspapers such as those now ongoing




13   in over 200 cities in the United States.  Many more such




14   programs will be needed to meet the increasing demand for old




15   newspapers, and we would like to continue to work with EPA




16   to develop more municipal collection programs.




17             The American Paper Institute has an ongoing Com-




18   munications Program which has, as its objective, to inform




19   the American public on the need to source separate recyclable




20   waste paper and make it available for separate collection for




21   recycling.




22             This message is aired on television and radio, and




23   included in news stories in the nation's newspapers and




24   magazines.  In 1979, we will be expanding this program.  In




25   some cases, there will be opportunities on talk shows to

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    include EPA officials in the story that we hope to tell.




              We will be reporting back to you, as we have in the




    past,  on how our story is being told in the nation's media.




              Further, if there are any other opportunities to




    work with EPA to expand waste paper recycling in this country,




    we will welcome the opportunity.




              Thank you.




              DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Are there any questions




    from the panel?  David?




10             MR. GAVRICH:  First, let me say that the efforts,




11   that Mr. Edwards and the American Paper Institute are taking




12   up in the cause of recycling, are laudable, and EPA has




13   always looked to the American Paper Institute for that type




14   of leadership.




15             The panel here ha.C  logged about 9,000 miles in the




16   last two months, talking to states and to our regions about




17   the State Planning Guidelines.  I have had the responsibility




18   to talk about the resource recovery and conservation aspects,




19   and I have stressed continually that source separation and




20   the "high technology" solutions are not mutually exclusive;




21   that through our resource recovery seminars, we stress that




22   source separation and tho energy recovery projects can be




23   carried on at the same t.^me.




24             In fact, in the Guidelines, in the preamble, we




25   stress that source sepa^ition is a key part of the resource

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    recovery definition in resource conservation.



              We have also included, EPA has included source




    separation as one of the two key eligible activities for




    funding under President Carter's urban policy program; that




    source separation, curbside collection type programs, the




    type of things that will encourage separating paper and other




    recyclables out of the waste stream are a key funding item that




    we will be looking at when proposals come in for the Presi-




    dent's program.




10  I           We are also stressing markets first and economic




11   feasibility as the key.  In light of that, the type of separa-




12   tion of paper, you say 25 percent has been separated, we would




13   like to increase that, and efforts by the Institute and




14   private companies such as Garden State Paper and the like




15   have helped to drive that message home, that it is economical-




16   ly feasible.



17             What I would like to ask you is how you suggest we




18   get the States involved in these type of source separation




19   efforts.  We are talking about the State Planning Guidelines




20   here, and seeing as we can make recommendations for those




21   States, and we have made them, in general, for source separa-




22   tion programs, how do you think specifically we should get




23   them involved?




24             MR. EDWARDS:  I think we need more of the seminars




25   such as we had in Orlando, Florida, and Atlanta, Georgia, where

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we participated, with EPA,, to instruct local officials how




they can incorporate, in liheir solid waste management program,




a separation program and collection program for old news-




papers.  We have urged, in almost 10 or 12 cities, seriously,,




the collection of old corrugated, where old corrugated is




currently not being collected, and we have never been able




to encourage even one city to experiment with it.  Maybe the




funding that you offer will give us a new force that can




attract attention.




          However, we are still concerned and extremely con-




cerned on the story of what you are doing — aind we are




pleased with what you are doing and what we are doing — is




not getting across to the consulting engineers and to the




solid waste officials, whc are working at the local level.




          We are particularly now concerned about the finan-




ciers on Wall Street who are looking to finance the construc-




tion of a solid waste processing plant, which will make RDF,




or burn directly and generate even as far as electricity.




They do want to maximize the flow-through.  They do want




to preclude the separate collection of any other combustible




material.




          We were up just recently to the Bridgeport




facility, and the management there making RDF were completely




unaware of the number of waste paper dealers, the number of




mills located in and around the area of Bridgeport.  They

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    call their plant a recycling plant.   They  will  be putting




    out massive publicity to  the people  of  the State of Con-




    necticut, both on their accomplishment  and how  to deal with




    it.  And where we have a  tremendous  collection  of old news-




 5  papers in that southern suburban  area of Connecticut, we are




 6  afraid that people will say, "Well,  I don't have to put it




 7  out anymore.  I don't have  to  string tie the bundle.   I




    don't have to drive it down to the recycling center.   If I




 9  put it in the -frAfJtCO-n  and the  Department of Sanitation picks




10  it up, they are going to  recycle  it  into fuel."




11            In the meantime,  the raw material supplies  for the




12  local mills is jeopardized  just by the  years that we  have




1,3  spent indoctrinating the  American people on the need  to source




14  separate old newspapers.  In one •ftdo.l swoop,  the Mayor and




15  the solid waste authority people  and the State  Government of




16  Connecticut, we have the  risk  of  them telling the people that




17  burning is recycling, and we don't think that is the  right




18  priority.




19            We think you should  separate  those materials




20  that have higher economic value,such as old newspapers.   We




21  don't know how to fight it, but what we really  need,  through




    you, is a monitoring of every  city solid waste  program,  in




23  the planning stage particularly.  We need  to know where  every




24  city is considering, in the early stages,  incineration.




25            With the 1,500  waste  paper dealers  and the  200

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    mill locations, we have people  in most  every major city in




    the United States.  We wa:it them to  see the  Mayor, to see the




    city engineers, to see thu consultants  who might be retained




    by the city.  YJ6 Yjoo\di  vwotycV ~Vo Kfv&vv Cuooo"\  CxjATy-ajj^^,



              We don't know how to  monitor  that.  We think the




    applications for assistance under your  program will identify




    some of these cities in the planning stage.   We hope that




    you will make those applicants  or application names available




 9   to us.  We are not just interested in those  that receive




10   money, but even those who apply.




11             We think that over in DOE,  there is some money,




12   that we hope that we can work together  again to identify in




13   the planning stages, solic waste management  program at the




14   local level, particularly in those areas we  haive a considerable




15   amount of waste paper collection ongoing now.




16             On the West Coast, where we are  exporting so much




17   waste paper, to Taiwan, to Korea, and to Japan, we are most




18   interested that none of that waste paper now being collected




19   is lost because we have an ever-increasing demand for waste




20   paper in the Orient.




21             DR. SKINNER: Mr. Edwards,  it  would be very helpful




22   to us,    perhaps if not today, at a later point in time,




23   you could make suggestions as to how the State Planning




24   Guidelines could be used in that area.




25             We have addressed source separation in several

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    areas in the Guidelines.  We have addressed the combination




    of source separation with mixed wastes in energy recovery




    facilities, and perhaps you would like to look at those




    sections and see if those reflect your concerns, and if not,




    make suggestions as to how they could be addressed.




              MR. EDWARDS:  I think the best thing for us to do,




    because it would get complicated, is to see how we best




    might work with you to identify where the recycling industry




    is large and ongoing, and where it is threatened, and where




10   we are working.  So that you know that we are working to




ll   preserve the waste paper collection, as well as you are work-




12   ing to staff up studies to get into probably resource




13   recovery, which might lead to incineration.




14             DR. SKINNER:  We are now considering the State




15   Planning Guidelines as the subject of this hearing.  Any




16   comments that you would like to make pertaining to how they




17   could be changed to reflect some of your concerns, would




18   be helpful to us.




19             MR. EDWARDS:  Well, in that Section D, I will




20   suggest to you in writing that we put in a priority for




21   waste paper.




22             DR. SKINNER:  That is the type of thing that we




23   are getting at.  Thank you.




24             Elizabeth Dollard?




25             MS. DOLLARD:  Good morning.  I am Elizabeth

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                                                               72
 1   Dollard, Policy Research Director, with the National Solid




 2   Wastes Management Association.




 3             NSWMA especially welcomes the opportunity to comment




 4   on the proposed Guidelines for Development and Implementation




 5   of the State Solid Waste ^'anagement Plans developed under




 6   the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976.




 7             The Association, which represents 2,000 members




 8   in the fields of waste collection, disposal, resource recovery




 9   hazardous waste management, and solid waste equipment, feels




10   that comprehensive State and regional planning will be an




11   important factor in assuring environmentally sound programs




12   for waste disposal and resource recovery in the future.




13             We are particularly pleased with the approach of




14   the supplementary information section of the Guidelines as




15   they appeared in the Federal Register on August 28.




16             The positions of the private waste management




17   industry are reflected in this introductory section.  NSWMA




18   applauds the inclusion of the following points in the Guide-




19   lines:




20             First, a recognition that, despite all efforts to




21   promote resource recovery and conservation, there will be a




22   continuing need for sanitary landfills.




23             Second, a recognition that the State has a responsi-




24   bility to assure sound disposal capacity, and may need to




25   take a leadership position to overcome institutional problems

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                                                                73
with  the  siting of sanitary landfills.




           Third,  a recognition that a  strong State posture is




essential to  assure the  siting of hazardous waste treatment




and disposal  facilities,  and that the  private sector has the




capability to provide  hazardous waste  management services.




           Fourth,  a recognition that the plan must be




developed with full participation by the public, including




the private sector,  and,  specifically,  that "awareness of




private sector activities"  is necessary for a State to




determine future  facility needs.




           While we support  the framework and the approach of




these Guidelines,  however,  we do question some of the specific




provisions.   We are first concerned with the coordination




between the open  dump  inventory to be  conducted under Section




4005 and  the  development  of State solid waste plans.




           If  the  planning Guidelines are promulgated in




January of  1979,  State plans would be  due to be completed




by July 1980,  18  months  later.   The inventory will begin when




the criteria  for  sanitary landfills are completed,  expected




by July of  1979.




           This means that by July 1980,  when the plans are




due, the  inventory process  will have been going on for only




one year.   Although the law requires the open dump inventory




to be completed within one  year,  it is  recognized by nearly




everyone,  including the Guidelines  document  itself,  that

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    such a task is impossible to accomplish properly in that




    time frame.




              In the State plan, then, is the State required to




    address only those facilities that have been  inventoried to




    date?  Or will the State plan, instead, identify the procedure




    for conducting this inventory but not include a list of sites




    until the entire inventor;' is complete?




              NSWMA has advised the  U.S.   EPA previously, with




    regard to the landfill criteria, that we feel an inventory




10   should be published only eifter it has been completed in its




11   entirety for a given waste: shed.  The Guidelines should make




12   clear to States exactly how they are to address, in the State




13   plan, these sites that have not been surveyed at th«s time




14   the plan is developed.




15             A second matter of concern to NSWMA relates to the




16   qualifications of those persons who will be conducting the



17   open dump inventory.  The proposed State Plan Guidelines




18   recommend that "inspectors should be trained and provided




19   detailed instructions for checking on the procedures and




20   conditions that are specified in the engineering plan and




21   site permit," and, further, that "assessment and prescription




22   of remedial measures should be carried out by adequately




23   trained or experienced professional staff."




24             The identification of open dumps, and, conversely,




25   sanitary landfills, is central to the purposes of RCRA.  The

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U. S. EPA has agonized for the past  two years, along with




public and private interest groups,  over establishing  land-




fill criteria that will be comprehensive, reasonable, and




precise enough to be measurable.




          All such efforts, however, are of  little value if




persons conducting the inventory are not required to be




trained for this purpose.  NSWMA recommends  that provisions




for training inspectors and other professional staff should be




a "requirement" for state regulatory powers  under Section




256.20 rather than merely a "recommendation" as currently




indicated under Section 256.21.




          Our third major comment relates to the provision




in the Guidelines and in RCRA that a site identified as an




open dump may obtain a compliance schedule if it "demonstrates




that it has considered other public or private alternatives




to comply with the prohibition on open dumping and is  unable




to utilize such alternatives to so comply."  That is the




language of the law.




          This requirement that an open dump close when there




is an alternative available is most ambiguous.  What is an




"alternative?"  By what what standards and by whose judgment




is a determination made that another facility is available?




          This provision in the Guidelines creates more prob-




lems than it solves.  Clearly, a key goal of RCRA is to




provide environmentally sound disposal facilities.  NSWMA

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                                                           76







believes that, to the maximum extent feasible, a disposal




site should be encouraged to upgrade and thcit closure should




be an approach of last resort.




          The difficulty of siting new disposal fsicilities




is discussed in the State Plan Guidelines.  In nearly every




case the opening of a new landfill or resource recovery




facility is an extremely time-consuming process, which can




be delayed for several years.




          It should be the intent of EPA and the Spates to




preserve existing landfills; if they can possibly be upgraded,




they should be put on a compliance schedule rather than closed




          To achieve this goal, the Planning Guidelines should




be expanded to define how the existence of an alternative is




determined.  For an example, in evaluating the availability




of an alternative facility, the effect of increasing the




waste load on the alternative site should be quantified.




          What would be the effect of additional truck traffic




and volumes of wastes coining to this alternative facility?




Would such activity so strain the resources of the alternative




site that it would be in jeopardy itself of becoming an open




dump?




          Further, the cost of upgrading an existing facility




should be compared to the cost of changing existing trans-




portation and disposal patterns to reroute waste to the




alternative site.  It should be noted that the cost of

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                                                               77
upgrading a private facility are borne by the private




facility operator and not by the municipality.




          Our fourth and final point, which relates to all




the issues raised, is that there must be an assurance of




adequate capacity in environmentally sound facilities to take




the waste that will continue to be generated.




          Certainly it is not enough for a State plan simply




to close all facilities which do not meet the landfill




criteria.  It may not even be enough to upgrade all existing




facilities.




          The State and the substate regions, through the




planning process, must project the disposal needs into the




future and must assure that facilities will be provided which




can take these wastes in an environmentally sound manner.




          While the supplementary information section of the




State Planning Guidelines emphasizes this point, the facility




planning and implementation section, Subpart  (e) of the




proposed rules  should include stronger requirements to




achieve this end.




          For example. Section 256.41(e) requires that




"environmental, economic and other constraints on continued




operation of facilities should be assessed" as part of the




plan.  It is not enough simply to identify the constraints.




          NSWMA urges the EPA to include language that would




require the State also to identify options for overcoming

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                                                                78
obstacles to facility siting.  Such approaches could include




State override of local zoning, development of a. siting board,




and other mechanisms.




          Further, Section 256.42(b), "Recommendations for




Assuring Facility Development," should be strengthened.  The




section now states that "where facilities and practices are




found to be inadequate, the State plan should provide for




the necessary facilities and practices to be developed by




responsible State and substate agencies or by the private




sector."




          The language siould be stated more positively that




the State plan shall provide for necessary facilities.  This




is another recommendation that should be made a requirement.




          Sanitary landfills may be an "endangered species."




The cooperation of the S:ates, regional planning agencies,




interest groups, and the private sector will be necessary to




assure that there will be facilities with sufficient capacity




to meet our future needs.




          Once again, wh:.le resource recover;,' initiatives are




to be encouraged, we must not fool ourselves into believing




that large scale facilities will appear overnight or that




they will be able to take all the wastes of our communities.




          EPA is encouraged to use the strongest language




possible in its planning Guidelines to emphasize the need




for a major State role in assuring that sanitary landfills

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                                                               79
meet strict environmental standards, but moreover, that an




adequate number of facilities will be available  to meet future




demands.




          We appreciate the opportunity of sharing our comments




with you today and look forward to sharing in the development




of individual State and regional plans over the  course of the




next several years.




          Thank you.




          DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Are there any questions?




          MS. ABSHER:  I would like to make just one clari-




fication.  The Guidelines do require the State plan to provide




for adequate disposal facilities.  It is not just a recommenda-




tion; it is a requirement in Section 256.40.




          MS. DOLLARD:  It is interesting that it is restated




in the recommendations section.  It seems that the more




specific language is in the recommendation section,and the




more general language is in the requirement section.  It is




a fine point, but it is a matter of emphasis.




          MS. ABSHER:  Thank you.




          DR. SKINNER:  With respect to your comment on what




is an alternative to an open dump, that was raised previously,




and we refer to Section 256.23(c), which says, "For each




facility classified as an open dump, a determination should




be made as to whether there are any alternatives.  Such




alternatives should include processing and disposal at other

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                                                               80







 I   facilities, upgrading the open dump, resource recovery and




 2   resource conservation."




 3             Does that get at your question as to whether or not




 4   a facility can be upgraded or whether an alternative has to




 5   be used and the facility ds not permitted to be upgraded?




 6             MS. DOLLARD:  I think that that would not be




 7   adequate information to make a determination by a State




 8   official.  There are always alternatives.  The question is




 9   how far can you drive the waste for it still to be considered




10   an alternative.




11             DR. SKINNER:  I *ras addressing another point that




12   you made as to whether or not upgrading a facility is an




13   alternative, not how do yoa determine when an alternative




14   exists.




15             MS. DOLLARD:  In other words, your interpretation




16   of an alternative could be upgrading of an existing facility?




17             DR. SKINNER:  The upgrading of the facility.  An




18   alternative to the open durip is upgrading the facility so it




19   is no longer an open dump.




20             MS. DOLLARD:  One1 of the problems that we have is




21   with the language of RCRA, and I realize that the Guidelines




22   have to reflect RCRA.  If you can define an alternative as




23   upgrading an existing site, we are very happy with that.




24             DR. SKINNER:  I think that is what we tried to do




25   in 256.23(c).  So, perhaps you would like to look at that and

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                                                               81
see if you feel that that gets at the point.




          MS. DOLLARD:  The reason that we bring this up




again, I think relates to discussions that we have had regard-




ing the landfill criteria.  An understanding by some of the




people at EPA is that you are taking this quite literally,




and that they would not include upgrading as an alternative.




          So, I guess our concern again is the coordination




between the landfill criteria and the State Planning Guidelines




          DR. SKINNER:  Other questions from the Panel?  I




have one other.  You discussed the section on recommendations




and requirements for insuring facility development, and you




said that this should be strengthened.




          You also said that the State should take a stronger




role in assuring that the facilities do come on-line and




that the States shall provide for the necessary facilities.




          In some of the meetings that we have had over the




past couple of months, people have read that to mean that the




State themselves should take the responsibility of acquiring,




or perhaps even operating and owning such facilities.  You




didn't mention whether that was your interpretation of that




or not, or whether you felt that it was clear that that was




not necessarily the role that the State would have to take.




          MS. DOLLARD:  I don't believe that the Guidelines




really have to specify that.  The position of the private




industry would be that if the State has mechanisms for

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    overcoming institutional barriers, then it is the business of




    the private sector to convince the State that the private




    industry can do it, that ve can provide facilities and we




    can operate them.




              DR. SKINNER: I 
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                                                               83
          I represent the National Center for Resource




Recovery, a nonprofit research organization involved in




programs to help extend the understanding and implementation




of systems to recover materials and energy from  solid waste.




These include both source separation and capital intensive




systems.




          It is my contention that in order to achieve the




basic objectives of RCRA — environmentally effective disposal




and conservation of resources — forms of resource recovery




must be considered as an essential element of solid waste




management planning by an increasing number of jurisdictions




that face waste disposal problems.




          The rising costs of disposal, the difficulty of




gaining new sites, and the imposition of higher  standards for




disposal are all factors that can only stimulate the search




for disposal alternatives.




          Resource recovery offers the most substantive




alternative; significant quantities of residuals can be




diverted from disposal and conservation gains realized as




a bonus.




          As a variety of systems and technological approaches




are now or soon to be demonstrated in large scale at a number




of locations, institutional problems will remain as some of




the major barriers to communities in considering recovery




options.  I am particularly impressed with the recommendations

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                                                               84
    in Section 256.31 of the Guidelines which address a number




 2   of these such as contracting and procurement.




 3             Resource recovery is, as is the solid waste disposal




    problems to which it responds, local in nature and site




    specific in regards, to planning and implementation.  Yet the




    complexity and magnituds of the undertaking are such that




    municipalities need assistance and the support of State




 8   government.




 9             Overall, the Guidelines are realistic.  It is




10   important that there be effective follow-through rand neces-




n   sary resources in order to achieve the desired objectives.




12             I thank you.




13             DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Are there any comments




14   or questions from the panel?  David?




15             MR. GAVRICH:  Let me kind of just reiterate what




16   I asked Mr. Edwards, if NCRR has any substantive recommenda-




17   tions for how we might have the States aid the municipalities




18   through these planning Guidelines, we would appreciate receiv-




19   ing those.




20             MR. CUNNINGHAM:  We don't have any now cit this




21   time.  Supplementing what Rod Edwards said, we worked with




22   Penny Hanson and Steve llngiS  and the other folks at EPA




23   in putting on those source separation and newspaper recovery




24   workshops in Orlando and in Atlanta.  I understand that there




25   are some more planned for this coming year.

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              As far as the implementation, we feel there are a




    lot of problems, and it is difficult for all the states to




    come up with good plans, and they are always fighting every-




    body in many cases.  It is politically involved and all kinds




    of problems that, Dave, you are well aware, and the other




    members of the panel.




              Did I successfully evade your question?




              MR. GAVRICH:  If you have anything, or if Mr.




    Petrone has anything in writing that you would like to submit




10             MR. CUNNINGHAM:  Yes, I will go back, and if we do




11   have anything substantive more than these brief comments,




12   which I just gave the reporter and which I just read, we will




13   be delighted to get them to you.




14             DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Any other questions or




15   comments?




16             (No response.)




17             DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.




18             I will go back over the people, who were listed




19   to speak, but were not here when we got to them.  Mr. Morris?




20             (No response.)




21             DR. SKINNER:  Mr. Cheeca or Mr. Cooley?




22             (No response.)




23             DR. SKINNER:  Ms. Biehle?




24             (No response.)




25             DR. SKINNER:  Mr. Johnson?

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                                                              86







 1             (No response.)




 2             DR. SKINNER:   That covers everyone who registered




 3   to make a statement.  Is there anyone here that would like to




 4   make a statement,  that  has not registered for that purpose?




 5   Yes, sir?




 g             MR. ATKINS:  C am George Atkins, representing the




 7   National Society of Professional Engineers.




 g             Our specific  concern on this program is an impact




 9   of some of the other regulations on it, as opposed to the




10   State program itself.




11             On the conflict of interest issue, which we previous'




12   ly discussed with you,  and which you responded to, to some




13   extent, in your October 17th publication on financial assist-




14   ance, we don't feel that that is satisfactory, anc' particular-




15   ly as it might apply to the States solid waste management




16   plans.




17             The presumption is that the States and the substate




18   agencies are going to us 2 consultants.  The way the  conflict




19   of interest matter has  boen left, it would be conceivable




20   that consultants working on State plans might not be able to




21   work on anything at a lower level, or consultants working on




22   substate plans might not be able to work for any oE the




23   implementation agencies within that substate area.




24             Outside of the self-interest aspect of it, we think




25   if this would be carried to the degree, which appears possible

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10





11





12





13





14





15





16





17





18





19





20





21





22





23





24





25
                                                               87
under the present policy, I don't think you have got enough




consultants in the world to solve the situation, and certainly




not enough experienced ones.  So, we really feel that either




you have to avoid the conflict of interest issue and allow




the State procurement policies and statutes to handle it,




or else you have to come up with a very clearly defined




policy which we can agree with or see what we can do about




getting it changed, rather than the matter of you giving




guidance to grantees with no further addressing of the issue.




          That is about how it stands as a result of




October 17th.




          DR. SKINNER:  Fine.  The State Planning Guidelines




themselves did not address the conflict of interest issue at




all.  I assume that the October 17th transmittal to you is




either on the basis of the Technical Assistance Panel or




the Urban Grants Program, would that be correct, David?




          MR. GAVRICH:  That is right.  It is through the




program announcement for a financial assistance program




under the Urban Grants.




          It is in the very beginning of this program announce-




ment.  It is an answer to the concerns and questions we




received at the public hearing on the Urban Policy Program.




What we have said in this document of October 17th is that




we will be giving the States and the grantees guidance on




conflict of interest with specific regard to the TA Panel's

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                                                               88
    contractors.  Now,  that is our area of greatest concern, and




    EPA is sort of in a tenuous position, in that the 10 regions




    have been given —  each region has hired a contractor, and




    that was done by various contractors submitting proposals.




              EPA is in a strange position in that now that we




    have come out with  the Urban Grants Program.  We are asking




    that those contractors be used to help develop work scopes.




    In regions where the contractor helps a grantee to develop




 9   a work scope, we see a potential conflict of interest if




10   that contractor is  hired for follow-on work.  So, that is




ll   being worked on right now.  That is the main area of concern




12   that EPA has shown  in this document.




13             DR. SKINNER:  With respect to the State plans, then,




14   that policy, that has been developed, has been developed for




15   EPA-hired consultants on the Technical Assistance Program




16   as those consultants pertain to applicants for the Urban




17   Grant Program.  That policy was not developed for consulting




18   under the State plan, in general, or for any other activities




19   outside those two specific limitations.




20             MR. ATKINS:  I think that should be clarified then




21   because if you read all af the regulations in their totality,




22   I don't see how you can avoid carrying, or how prospective




23   grantees will avoid carrying a conflict of interest provision




24   from a program, which addresses it, to a program, which does




25   not address it.

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 9





10





11





12





13





14





15





16





17





18





19





20





21





22





23





24





25
                                                               89
          DR. SKINNER:  That is a good point. We should




clarify that.




          MR. ATKINS:  You know, in addition to our self-




interest concern, if you stop and think about it, if you




can only use one consultant in a given area on one phase of




a program, just how many consultants do you think there are




around the world, that have solid waste experience?  That is




one issue.




          The other issue is that, in your water pollution
program, they^struggled with conflict of interest for eight




years now, and still, you know, consultants are doing 208




planning, they are doing 201 planning, and they are doing




implementation design.




          I don't know what your feeling is, but ours is




that there hasn't been any major conflict of interest except




in those cases where           clearly illegal things took




place, and the law handled them if they found them.  If they




didn't, they will handle them.




          I think that one other concern of ours is that




when you people publish regulations and when you hold a




carrot out -- and admittedly, the carrot is pretty damn small




— but when you hold a carrot out, the prospective grantees




are going to be sure that they proceed in what they see as




a way that will not endanger their possibility of getting a




grant.  So,  even though they may never get a grant, they

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                                                                90
    also may follow your rules right down the line because they




    hope to get a grant, which may rule consultants out of




    situations where you ate not even involved, merely by the




    implication that you may be involved.




              DR. SKINNER:  Fine.  Are there any other comments




    or questions from the panel on that?




              (No response.)




              DR. SKINNER:  Thank you.  Is there anyone else who




    would like to make a statement?  Are there any questions




10   from the audience?




11             (No response. I




12             DR. SKINNER:  If not, thank you for coming.  We




13   appreciate your comments!.  The public comment period will




14   remain open until November 27th, and anything that you send




15   to us postmarked before that date will be included in the




16   development of the final regulation.




17             (Whereupon, the hearing was concluded at 11:41 a.m.)





18




19




20




21




22




23




24




25

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                                                                91
 2

 „                    REPORTER'S  CERTIFICATE
 O


 4    DOCKET NUMBER:

 5
CASE TITLE:   Proposed Regulation for Development and Implementa
                  tion of Stat
HEARING DATE: October 26, 1978
                       tion of State Solid Waste Management Plans
     LOCATION:  Washington, D.C.
     I hereby certify that the  proceedings and evidence herein

     are contained fully and accurately in the notes taken by me

     at the hearing in the above  case before the

          United  States Environmental Protection Agency
12

     and that this is a true and  correct transcript of the same.
1.3

14
                                DatS!     October 26, 1978
15

16
                                  Official Reporter

                                Acme  Reporting Company
                                1411  K street N.w.
                                Washington,  D.C.  20005
19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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   PUBLIC HEARING STATEMENT
        Docket 4002 (b)
             on
Guidelines for Development and
Implementation of State Solid
      October 26, 1978

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      I am Oscar H. Adams, Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Office of
 Health Protection and Environmental Management, Virginia Department of
 Health, Richmond, Virginia.  My statement today is on behalf of the
 Department with State responsibility for solid and hazardous waste
 management.  Mr. Gilley, the Director of the Solid and Hazardous Waste
 Management Division, was scheduled to make a statement today but is
 involved in a statewide public participation effort on our State Solid
 Waste Management Plan, an effort occupying the entire program staff
 for more than two weeks.

      I appreciate this opportunity to express our views on the pro-
 posed guidelines on State Solid Waste Management Plans in view of our
 current efforts to adopt such a plan.  Management plans such as these
 are important in the development of adequate programs even though the
 planning and program development phases may have to take place over a
 prolonged period.  The adoption procedure being followed is
 established in Virginia's Administrative Processes Act and is con-
 sidered adequate for the State Plan.  The adoption process used is the
same as for a regulation.  This process, similar to that of many
 states, is adequate to accomplish the purposes of RCRA.  As asked in
 the supplementary information, more specific approval requirements
 would seem to be inappropriate and may in fact cause further admi-
 nistrative delays in plan adoption.  I would not recommend that the
 adoption procedure be more specific.  May I add, due to State admin-
 istrative procedures, it has taken several years for states to
 qualify under Safe Drinking Water Act, therefore, additional more spe-
 cific requirements would make it most difficult for States to qualify.

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     Another request for comment causes consternation with our staff.
 It is suggested that EPA is considering consolidation of State work
 program submissions for all environmental programs into a single
 State/EPA agreement.  A State/r.pA agreement would only be of value for
 individual programs and meetinci the contractual requirements of EPA
 for each grant.  Consolidation into a single agreement is highly
 objectionable.   All environmental programs in Virginia are not managed
 by a single department.  Lumping all programs would have the effect of
 demanding that the State have an EPA equivalent structure.  Attainment
 of such structure would require legislative action on the part of
 the General Assembly, an action which in our State has been considered
 in the past and rejected.   In Virginia, RCRA activities, the Safe
 Drinking Water Program, and TOSCA are within the Department of Health
 where appropriate emphasis is given to the priority of health protec-
 tion.  These programs are  effectively coordinated now with that of the
 Clean Water Act to the fullest <;xtent and I fail to see how such a
 program submission consolidation is going to bring about better co-
 ordination within the State.  By consolidation one might assume that
 funds would also be consolidated.  The danger then is that a program
 allocated a smaller percentage than another might result in siphoning
 of funds between programs  or creation of new overheaid requirements
resulting in lower actual program funding.  The Conference of State
 Sanitary Engineers passed  a resolution in opposition to such con-
 solidation which was sent  to the Administrator.  The separate identity
 of RCRA will be lost and this can only result in a less effective
 program.  Apparently, this is a decision that has already been made
 since the Federal Register of October 12, Part ill on the final rules
 for grants for State Underground Water Source Protection Programs

-------
 specifies that all FY 1980 programs will be part of the single
 State/EPA agreement.  Such an action is contrary to the spirit of
 public participation advocated by the Federal Government as the
requirement for State and local decisions and indicates a breakdown of
 proper communication at the EPA between various programs.  Burdening
 the State governments with work program consolidation to cure EPA
 internal ailments seems to penalize the wrong party.

     The purpose of the proposed regulations stated in paragraph
 256.01 (b) is to address the minimum requirements for approval of
 State plans yet the guidelines go far beyond these minimum require-
 ments.  As an example, it is stated that hazardous waste planning
 activities are to be included in the State plan.  Since this is an EPA
 responsibility under RCRA, it is inappropriate to include on a man-
 datory basis until the State decision to seek authorization to admi-
 nister and enforce the hazardous waste program has been made.

      There is an error in paragraph 256.01 (b)(6).   One might
 interpret it to be mandatory that plans require resource recovery and
 disposal facilities in combination considering what is environmentally
 sound.  Disposal planning must be allowed not in combination with
 resource recovery as stated in the Act.  Otherwise, we will see
 recovery projects developed without an adequate economic basis.

      The Guidelines require that State plans be submitted for approval
 within 18 months of promulgation.  Planning to the detailed level
 envisioned in the scope and subsequent subparts, implementation of
 public participation requirements, planning for a minimum of 5 years,

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and full coordination with other programs will take more than two
years.  Since it has taken EPA two years to develop these pro-
posed guidelines, time phasing of planning should be mare than
setting priorities.  A waste category should not be th<} only element
of consideration in such plan phasing.

     The annual work plan is an important element of planning and
implementation.  The maintenance of flexibility is essential in the
guidance developed for these vork plans if the individual State needs
are to be considered.  The same consideration should be incorporated
in the planning process itself.

     Our proposed State plan uses similar language to that of
paragraph 256.30 (c) and therefore should comply with this mandatory
requirement.  However, this places the burden on individual states to
develop materials procurement specification such as for paving or
paper where Federal funds are used.  This should be reversed.  The
Federal agency providing funds should identify the materials to be
procured by specification and uarket source.  My review of Section
6002 of RCRA would require the Federal Agencies to do this and EPA
producing procurement guideline's.  Before implementing the requirement
in this regulation, limit its application.
     Throughout the document you use the terms "shall* arid 'should*.
By your definition "shall" is used for a mandatory requirement to be
included in the plan.  My fear is that by including recommendations in
the regulation, the "should" will translate to "shall" in plan pre-
paration, public review, and EPA approval.  This will happen through

-------
interpretation of what strategy of policy will encourage resource
recovery.  The first recommendation  includes training, financial sup-
port and market development.  Virginia is financially limited in its
ability to undertake such efforts so why infer this level of detail in
the Guideline for State Plans?

     The recommendation contained in the Preamble for the States to
have authority to acquire solid waste disposal facilities or cause
facilities to be acquired is totally unrealistic in Virginia legal
context.  Even if the facilities could be acquired who will finance
them and who will operate such a facility?  Are you considering the
State dictating facility location?  Such a suggestion is totally unac-
ceptable.
     During the public meeting held  in Annapolis, Maryland, on October
13, the attendees were solicited for comments on advisability for
public hearings prior to the issuance of permits to operate solid
waste disposal facilities.  Site selection, acquisition, and operation
of disposal facilities are a local responsibility and are accom-
plished with ample public participation in all stages of the decision
process for use permits and zoning.  Once the site has been selected
and the operational plan has been approved, holding additional public
hearings on the issuance of a State permit is highly redundant and
would result in totally unnecessary delay in addition to a waste of
taxpayer's money.  He have already objected to the expansiveness of
public participation requirements in a previous hearing.  I consider
these requirements to be arbitrary and capricious, going far beyond

-------
those of Sec. 7004(b) of RCRA.  Virginia has an Administrative Process
Act covering the necessity o£ public participation.  The mandatory
requirements of paragraphs 255.60, 256.61 and 256.62 go far beyond
what is reasonable and essential for the involvement of an informed
public.  I am enclosing a copy of our previous comments for the
record.

     The mandatory inclusions within the annual work program would
seem to take away State flexibility.  For example, State planning for
development of hazardous waste management facilities may be beyond the
financial abilities and policy of a State.  Developing regulations on
hazardous waste management, if the State elects to apply for authroity
to administer Subtitle C, is more appropriate.  Only if it is a State
policy to own and operate such facilities or services would paragraph
256.05 (d)(2) be considered.  If all elements of the work program are
mandatory, what will EPA and tie State negotiate?

     Resource Conservation and recovery are specified in RCRA.  To
make a requirement that State and local government shall not prohibit
long-term contracts for resource recovery is important yet it will
require legislative action to authorize such contracts.  Such a plan
element is of little value where a customer for recovered energy is a
Federal facility.  Except for a recent amendment to the Military
Construction Appropriation, Federal contracts are  limited to one year.
Under the amendment to the Military Construction bill, the military
may contract for up to ten years for recovered energy.  Ten years may
not yield bonds or project funding at an economically competitive
level.  Resource recovery without a sound economic base will become a
community white elephant with the taxpayers bearing yet another bur-
den.  You are requiring States to plan for something that is not
possible within the Federal Government.

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              Statement of Eric H. Bartsch, P. E., Director
                       Division of Water Programs
                         State Health Department
                           Richmond, Virginia


                            October 26, 1978


     I am Eric H. Bartsch, Director of the Division of Water Programs,

State  Health Department, Richmond, Virginia.  I am here today repre-

senting both the Virginia State Health Department and the Conference

of State Sanitary Engineers.  We appreciate this opportunity to

express our collective views regarding the proposed regulation per-

taining to public participation in programs under the Resource

Conservation and Recovery Act, The Safe Drinking Water Act and the

Clean Water Act.


     It is our belief that the EPA Administrator does not have

authority to promulgate such a far-reaching regulation as this in

reference to the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Resource Conservation

and Recovery Act.  A reading of the safe Drinking Water Act and the

Congressional history of the Act does not infer nor require such

detailed and far-reaching public participation requirements upon the

primacy states. The Safe Drinking Water Act sets forth five conditions

for a state to assume primacy.  A public participation program is not

one of these conditions.  The Act itself through public notification

requirements probably is the ultimate in public participation but does

not require the extensive support staff that this proposed regulation

would require of each primacy state.  Although this propsed regulation

may have applicability under the Clean Water Act, to make it appli-

cable to the Safe Drinking Water Act appears to be both improper and

excessive.

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                                 -2-





     The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act basically addresses



three areas, solid waste management, hazardous waste management and



resource recovery.  The solid waste portion of the Resource



Conservation and Recovery Act deals with guidelines to be prepared by



the D. S. Environmental Protection Agency.  Section 4003 of the Act



sets forth the mandatory elements of state planning for solid waste



management in order to obtain approval of this program by the EPA



Administrator.  Public participation is not one of the mandatory



requirements for state solid waste planning.  The Act does, however,



authorize the Administrator 1:o promulgate minimal guidelines for



public participation in solid waste management, hazardous waste



management and resource recovery.  We do not consider this proposed



regulation to be minimal guidelines,  in fact, it goes far beyond the



scope and intent set forth ir the Resource Conservation and Recovery



Act.





     To make states that have already received primacy under the



Safe Drinking Water Act and those states in the planning and develop-



ment stage for assuming primacy under the Safe Drinking Water Act, and



those states preparing to receive grant monies under the planning for



solid waste management to devE-lop the detailed public participation



program outlined in this proposed regulation is unreasonable,



excessive and unjustified and will cause further delay.

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                                 -3-

        Public participation is an integral part of any far-reaching
regulatory program.  Its importance has become more evident as time
passes.  As a result, most, if not all states, have requirements for
public participation in the development of its rules and regulations.
In Virginia, for example, we have an Administrative Process Act which
details the type and extent of public participation.  These state laws
have been enacted to meet the needs of the individual states.  To
superimpose a federal regulation over existing state laws will result
in needless conflicts and expenditures at state and local levels
without increased effective public participation.

     The proposed regulation indicates that there would be a small
increase in cost and this may be true as it relates to construction
grant projects under the Clean Water Act, however, there is no
increase in funding to primacy states under the Safe Drinking Water
Act or to states receiving grant monies under the Resource
Conservation and Recovery Act.  Therefore, all costs would have to
be borne by the state and local governments.  Though these costs
appear to be small by federal standards, they may, in fact, be quite
large at the state and local government level.

     Although this proposed regulation states that Advisory Groups
pertain only to the Clean Water Act, the inference is clear that these
would be required for the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Resource
Conservation and Recovery Act.  As the Safe Drinking Water Act and the
Resource Conservation and Recovery Act are frequently managed at the
state level by agencies other than those supervising the Clean Water
Act a multiplicity of Advisory Groups would be required.  Further-

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                                 -4-

more, the ability of the Advisory Group to request an evaluation by
EPA Administrator of a state's program in effect, would make the
Advisory Group the state defacto program director.  We also believe
that this authority of the Advisory Group is in direct conflict with
the provisions of the Safe Drinking Water Act which stcites that unless
a state fails to carry out its responsibilities under the Act, the EPA
Administrator has the authority to engage in program activities within
state.
     In summary, we believe this regulation as it relates to the Safe
Drinking Water Act and Resource Conservation and Recovery Act  is
improper, unnecessary, and will place an undue burden upon the states.
In an era of attempting to decrease red tape and government involve-
ment this regulation proposes to increase red tape and government
involvement.  We believe this proposed regulation is an attempt to
overregulate and will create a program activity which is not cost
effective.

     In view of the above staged reasons we recommend that the
Administrator not promulgate "his proposed regulation.

     Thank you.

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                STATEMENT OF CAREY P. BUSBIN

                         ON BEHALF OF

         THE UTILITY SOLID WASTE ACTIVITIES GROUP

       Before the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
    Public Hearing on Proposed Guidelines for Development
  and Implementation of State Solid Waste Management Plans

    Washington, D.C.                 October 26,  1978


          My name is/Carey P. JSusbin./'I am an Environmental

Licensing Engineer wiWsouthern Company Services, Inc., with

specific responsibility in the area of solid waste management.

I am appearing today as representative of the Utility Solid

Waste Activities Group, known as '• USWAG ", and the Edison

Electric Institute.

          USWAG is a coalition of approximately 45 electric

utilities and the Edison Electric Institute, the principal

national association of investor-owned electric light and

power companies.  USWAG was created in August, 1978, as the

successor to the Solid Waste Task Force of EEI's Environment

and Energy Committee.   A list of USWAG's members is attached.

          USWAG and its predecessor have participated actively

in EPA's efforts to date to develop regulations under the Re-

source Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976 ("RCRA ).  This

involvement reflects both recognition that portions of these

regulations will impact substantially upon the electric power

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                            - 2 -






industry and a commitment to work cooperatively with EPA to



insure that this important statute is implemented in a reason-



able manner.




          With this background, 1 am pleased to offer a few



of OSWAG's observations on EPA's proposed Guidelines for the



Development and Implementation of State Solid Waste Management



Plans under Section 4002(b) of RCRA.  Since USWAG will file



more comprehensive comments on these proposed guidelines, I



shall confine my remarks today to the high points of our sub-



mission.










     First, USWAG believes that the proposed state planning



guidelines do not give the states the flexibility they need,



and that Congress intended for them to have, in attempting to



deal with the particular nonhazardous solid waste disposal



problems in their jurisdictions.  The report of the House



Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce states explicitly:



"In formulating a state plan it is the Committee's intention



to permit wide flexibility on the part of the state developing



such plan so that each state can plan for its particular



problems." (H.R. REP. No. 1491,, 94 Cong., 2nd Sess. 35



(emphasis added)).  However, USWAG believes that the proposed



guidelines, by expressly incorporating EPA's proposed Criteria



under Section 4004 of RCRA (Proposed Sections 256.20(a),

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                            - 3 -





256.22(a), 256.22(d), and 256.24(a)), would deprive the states



of the flexibility they should have in coping with their parti-



cular problems of solid waste.



          Two examples will demonstrate our point.  Under the



proposed Section 4004 Criteria, solid waste disposal facili-



ties generally may not be iocated in "wetlands."   (Proposed



Section 257.3-1).  Vast areas of the country consist of "wet-



lands," as defined by EPA; indeed, the states of  Florida and




Louisiana consist almost entirely of such areas.   Thus, in



order to receive federal approval of their plans, these states



would be required to prohibit, or severely limit, the location



of solid waste disposal, facilities within their boundaries.



We do not believe that this approach is consistent with the



intent of Congress.  This is not what the House Committee



meant by giving the States "wide flexibility" to  develop a



solid waste management plan aimed at their particular problems.



          A second example:  RCRA directs EPA to  consider in



its Section 4002{b) guidelines "the varying regional, geologic,



hydrologic, climatic, and other circumstances under which



different solid waste practices are required in order to



insure the reasonable protection of the ground and surface



waters from leachate contamination, the reasonable protection



of the quality of the surface waters from surface runoff



contamination, and the reasonable protection of ambient air

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quality.   Section 4002(c)(J)  (emphasis added).   We note that



Congress emphasizes reasonable protection of the environment.



         However, the proposed Criteria, which would be incor-



porated in these guidelines,  generally would bar an approved



state from locating solid waste disposal facilities in wetlands



and 100-year flood plains even though local geologic, hydrologic,



and other conditions are such that the facility would be operated



in a manner to insure reasonable protection of the environment.



         USWAG recognizes the importance of wetlands, 100-year



flood plains and other "Environmentally Sensitive Areas."



However, we believe that options short of blanket exclusions



are available both to insure  the protection of these areas



and to give the states the nacessary flexibility to deal with



their solid waste problems.   One such option, which we previous-



ly have suggested to EPA, is  a formal variance procedure whereby



states would be able to exempt specific disposal facilities



from the Criteria upon a showing of reasonable protection of



the environment.



          In summation, USWAG again urges EPA to reevaluate



its proposed Section 4004 Criteria which, when incorporated



in the Section 4002(b) guidelines, will not restrict the



states in formulating acceptable solid waste plans under RCRA.



                           I]  .



          This brings me to USWAG's second point of concern,



which is also related to the   need for state flexibility in

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                          - 5 -






solid waste management.  We have serious doubts about the




appropriateness of proposed Sections 256.20(d) and 256.24(b),




which rj!gin.j:e the states to make use of a permit or registra-




tion program to insure that the establishment of new open dumps




is prohibited and that all solid waste disposal is carried out




in compliance with the Section 4004 Criteria. Under these pro-




visions, permits possibly would be required before any solid




waste disposal facility, including even the smallest sanitary




landfill, could commence operation.




          USWAG does not believe this was the intent of Con-




gress.  While we recognize that RCRA mandates a permit pro-




gram for hazardous wastes, we do not believe Subtitle D




gives EPA the authority to require states to utilize either




a permit or registration program in managing nonhazardous




wastes.  We submit that the states should be free to select




whatever programs they deem necessary, in light of their




particular problems and circumstances, to comply with the




requirements of Subtitle D.






                         III.




         USWAG's third point is an endorsement of EPA's require-




ment that the State plan "provide for a policy and strategy




for encouragement of resource recovery and conservation acti-




vities." (Proposed Section 256.30(a)).  We wish to point out

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                         - 6 -






that in the electric utility industry approximately 20



percent of fly ash and bottom ash is today sold commercially



for road base, subbase, structural fill material, as an




additive in concrete, and for other purposes.   We believe that



state plans under Subtitle D should encourage  the continued use



of such resource recovery efforts.



                         .IV.



          Fourth, USWAG believes that the procedural protec-



tions under the proposed closure requirements  (Proposed Sec-



tion 256.22(c)) should be strengthened considerably in order



to comply with the requirements of due process.  First, an



owner or operator should be notified as soon as it is determined



that his facility is under study for possible  classification



as an open dump.  Second, we 1 eel that the owner/operator



should be provided with alj. of the evidence upon which the



classification is based, rather than only with a summary of



the evidence.





                           V.



          At this point, I would like to point out a few



additional provisions of the proposed guidelines that are of



concern to USWAG and its members:



          1.  We believe that where multiple agencies are in-




volved in implementing a solid waste management program, the



state plan should designate a single agency to coordinate the

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                         - 7 -






administrative process in order to protect persons from incon-



sistent and duplicative regulation.  We urge EPA to include



this requirement in its Section 4002(b) guidelines.



          2.  We submit that the proposed state plan approval



provisions (Section 256.04(b)) should provide that notice to



a state of plan noncompliance as well as withdrawal of plan



approval will be published in the Federal Register.



          3.  USWAG believes that several of the terms defined



in the proposed guidelines need clarification. (Proposed Sec-



tion 256.06).  For example, the meaning of "properly closed"



is unclear.  The use of the phrase "et cetera" in the defini-



tion of "facility" is confusing and inappropriate.  The defin-



ition of "inventory of open dumps" should specify that the list



will be published in the Federal Register.



          4.  USWAG generally supports EPA's recommendation



that the states should have greater authority and control over




facility acquisitions.  (Proposed Section 256.42(e)).  Our



experience has shown that local authorities often are reluc-



tant, or even refuse» to take the necessary steps to obtain



and establish adequate new disposal sites.



          5.  Finally, we question the requirement that a



state must hold a public hearing on each permit application.



(Proposed Section 256.63).  USWAG believes that this matter



should rest in the discretion of the states.  We feel that



at most EPA should require only that a public hearing be held

-------
where the state finds a significant degree of public interest



in the application.



          USWAG appreciates the opportunity to submit these



comments today.  We will continue to follow with interest



EPA's efforts to implement the Resource Conservation and




Recovery Act.

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    MEMBERS OF UTILITY SOLID WASTE ACTIVITIES GROUP
American Electric Power Company, Inc.
Atlantic City Electric Company
Baltimore Gas & Electric Company
Central Hudson Gas & Electric Corporation
Central Illinois Light Company
Central Illinois Public Service Company
Central & South West Corporation
   Central Power and Light Company
   Public Service Company of Oklahoma
   Southwestern Electric Power Company
   West Texas Utilities Company
Columbus & Southern Ohio Electric Company
Commonwealth Edison Company
Consolidated Edison Company of New York, Inc.
Duke Power Company
Duquesne Light Company
Edison Electric Institute
Florida Power & Light Company
Houston Lighting & Power Company
Illinois Power Company
Indianapolis Power & Light Company
Iowa-Illinois Gas & Electric Company
Iowa Power & Light Company
Middle South Utilities, Inc.
Monongahela Power Company
Montana Power Company
New England Electric System
Niagara Mohawk Power Corporation
Northern Indiana Public Service Company
Northern States Power Company
Pacific Gas & Electric Company
Pennsylvania Power & Light Company
Philadelphia Electric Company
Potomac Electric Power Company
Public Service Electric & Gas Company
Public Service Company of Indiana, Inc.
Southern California Edison Company
Southern Company Services, Inc.
   Alabama Power Company
   Georgia Power Company
   Gulf Power Company
   Mississippi Power Company
Texas Utilities Generating Company
The Detroit Edison Company
The Potomac Edison Company
Union Electric Company
West Penn Power Company
Wisconsin Electric Power Company
Wisconsin Power & Light Company
Wisconsin Public Service Corporation
Virginia Electric & Power Company

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COMMENTS OS STATE SOLID WASTE



    MANAGEMENT PLANS




    _t4O_CEE_256) (DOCKET 4002(b)
                  CHIEF, >,< ff- (>(- **',«} .•wfTiJt-.'e-f A»i'.tft.c.i
U.S. EPA SHOULD BE CONGRADULATED ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF THESE



GUIDELINES.  THEY ARE  GREATLY IMPROVED FROM EARLIER DRAFTS.




MOST REQUIREMENTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS ARE REALISTIC AND ACHIEVABLE



(ASSUMING FUNDING CONTINUES  AND IMPROVES).  THE ORGANIZATION OF



THE GUIDELINES IS ALSO MUCH  BETTER THAN MOST GUIDELINES WE




HEAD IN THK FEDERAL REGISTER.






ALTHOUGH OVERALL OUR OFFICE  VIEWS THESE GUIDELINES FAVORABLY.



THERE ARE SEVERAL CONCERNS AND QUESTIONS WE HAVE ABOUT SPECIFIC



SECTIONS.      THERE ARE ONE OR TWO ITEMS WE OPPOSE.  THESE




SPECIFIC COMMENTS FOLLOW.

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S256.03     EIGHTEEN MONTHS  IS NOT ENOUGH TIME TO ENABLE DEVELOPMENT




            OF SUCH A COMPREHENSIVE PLAN AND GET IT ADOPTED BY THE



            STATE.  IN  18 MONTHS WE COULD ESTABLISH THE PLANNING



            FRAMEWORK,  TIME  FRAMES AND ADDRESS THE MAJOR ELEMENTS.



            tarn, DCCAPSp SOME ACTIVITIES CAN NOT BE COMPLETED UNTIL



            AFTER THE OPEN DUMP INVENTORY WHICH WILL TAKE AT LEAST



            TWO YEARS TO COMPLETE, ESPECIALLY THE LOCAL PLANNING FOR



            ALL SITES WITH LESS THAN FIVE YEARS OF LIFE.  THE PROJECT



            LIFE OF MANY SITES WILL CHANGE (i.e. SHORTENED) WHEN THE



            OPEN DUMP INVENTORY IS COMPLETE DUE TO CLOSINGS AND RE-



            SULTING SHIFTS IN WASTE FLOW.  THESE GUIDELINES SHOULD




            STATE WHAT  MUST  BE DONE IN 18 MONTHS AND WHAT CAN TAKE



            LONGER.
S256.03 (e) HOW OFTEN MUST LOCAL PLANS BE REVISED?  WILL THERE BE




            ADEQUATE FUNDS FOR SUCH REVISIONS?  WE CAN NOT REQUIRE




            WORK OF THE SUBSTATE UNITS UNLESS THERE ARE FUNDS TO




            COVER THE COSTS.








S256.06     THE DEFINITIONS OF "PLANNING" AND'IMPLEMENTATION-




            ARE BETTER HERE THAN IN THE ACT.  WE STILL NEED CORRECTIONS




            TO DEFINITIONS IN THE ACT, ESPECIALLY "CONSTRUCTION".




            THE ACTIVITIES DESCRIBED AS PLANNING IN THE DISCUSSION/




            EXPLANATION SECTIONS ARE CONSISTANT WITH OUR UNDERSTANDING




            OF PLANNING ALTHOUGH WORDING IN THE ACT APPEARS TO PREVENT




            THESE MEANINGFUL ACTIVITIES FROM BEING FUNDED.  LETS HOPE





            THE OVERSIGHT HEARING OF CONGRESS CORRECTS THE SITUATION-

-------
S256.10     DETAILED DEFINITION OF RESPONSIBILITIES CONCERNING ALL


            AREAS OF SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT AND BETWEEN ALL LOCAL


            GOVERNMENT, DESIGNATED PLANNING AND IMPLEMENTATION AGENCIES


            AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS OF LITTLE VALUE AT THIS STAGE


            AND WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT AND CONFUSING TO LOCAL


            GOVERNMENT.  THIS WORDING SOUNDS TO^MUCH LIKE 208 WHICH


            LOCAL GOVERNMENTS WOULDN'T LIKE.  WE SUGGEST THE BEST


            SOLUTION TO THIS IS THE DEVELOPMENT OF MEMORANDA OF UNDER-


            STANDING BETWEEN PLANNING AGENCIES AND MAJOR. GOVERNMENT


            UNITS OR IMPLEMENTATION AGENCIES.  THE MOU'S ARE


            DEVELOPED BY THE LOCALfTO ADDRESS THEtR CONCERNS Ofif


            ASSIGNING RESPONSIBILITIES.  THEY WOULD FOLLOW THE BROAD


            CATEGORIES OF RESPONSIBILITY THE STATE ASSIGNED EARLY IN


            THE DESIGNATION PROCESS.  THEY ARE MOST IMPORTANT WHERE


            A RESOURCE RECOVERY FACILITY IS BEING PLANNED.  ANYTHING

                             £!'
            FURTHER ISN'T NEED/ UNTIL THE LOCAL PROBLEMS AND PLANS ARE


            BETTER DEFINED.

-------
S256.ll SAME COMMENTS AS 256,10 .APPLY TOO MUCH DETAIL EXPECTED.



S256.20
AND
S256.21 MOST OF THESE REQUIREMENTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS ARE REALISTIC

        AND NEEDED.  ALTHOUGH WE SUPPORT THESE ELEMENTS IT  tty tite-

        MAgflg SEVERAL YEARS TO OBTAIN ALL THE NEEDED LEGISLATION

        TO COMPLY.
                          3s
        IN 256.21(d)(4) tUV IHIVH'I THIS TO PERTAIN TO ONLY NEW

        FACILITIES?  ALTHOUGH VALUABLE THIS IS VERY DIFFICULT

        TO SELL TO LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND STATE LEGISLATURE.



S256.22
(e)     DOES THIS MEAN ONLY FACILITIES WITH NO ALTERNATIVES ARE

        GIVEN COMPLIANCE SCHEDULES.  ELSEWHERE (256.22(g)) IT

        SOUNDS LIKE ALL FACILITIES CAN RECEIVE COMPLIANCE SCHEDULES

        OF UP TO 5 YRS.  IF THE FIRST IS TRUE HOW SOON AFTER

        PUBLICATION OF THE LIST OF OPEN DUMPS DO THE DUMPS WITH

        ALTERNATIVES HAVE TO CLOSE?


S256.22
(g)     INCLUDING ALL THE COMPLIANCE SCHEDULE INFORMATION IN

        THE ANNUAL WORK PROGRAM WILL MAKE ANNUAL STATE GRANT PROPOSALS

        UNNECCESSARILY BULKY.


S256.23 THE TERM "EVALUATED" IS CONFUSING.  THE ACT SAYS ALL SITES

        MUST BE EVALUATED.  TF THE INTENT IS "DETAILED EVALUATION"

        THEN INSERT THE WORD "DETAILED".   ^^MUST EVALUATE

        WHETHER THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE SITES - OPERATOR OR THE STATE?

        WHO PAYS FOR IT?  COULD THIS BE A RESPONSIBILITY OF SUB-

        STATE UNITS?

-------
S256.30 THE PROCUREMENT REQUIREMENTS WILL BE HARD TO ACHIEVE


        AND THEREFORE THIS SECTION SHOULD NOT BE REQUIRED


        UNTIL AFTER 6002(e) REGULATIONS ARE PUBLISHED.  THESE


        REQUIREMENTS SHOULD APPLY ONLY TO THE STATE.  WE MAY


        ENCOURAGE LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO FOLLOW THESE REQUIREMENTS


        BUT WE CAN'T MANDATE LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO FOLLOW THE


        PROCUREMENT REQUIREMENTS.




S256.31 THERE IS TOO MUCH DETAIL TO THESE RECOMMENDATIONS.


        FOR EXAMPLE, REVIEW OF LOCAL LEGISLATION AND CONDUCTING


        WASTE COMPOSITION STUDIES ARE TOO TIME CONSUMING AND


        COSTLY AND ARE OF LITTLE VALUE TO THE ST4TE.



SUBPART E  MUCH OF THE WORK EXPECTED IN FACILITY PLANNING CAN NOT


        BE COMPLETED UNTIL AFTER THE INVENTORY IS COMPLETED.  THIS


        SUBPART HAS GREATEST IMPACT ON LOCAL PLANNING AGENCIES.  THIS


        SUBPART IS NEEDED MORE THAN MANY OTHER SUBPARTS OF THE


        GUIDELINES AND NEEDS FUNDING OVER THE NEXT 5 YEARS.



        WE OPPOSE REQUIRING ALL FUNDING FOR HAZARDOUS WASTE FACILITY


        PLANNING COMING FROM SUBTITLE D.  HAZARDOUS WASTE FACILITY


        PLANNING SHOULD BE FUWDABLE UNDER SUBTITLE C, ESPECIALLY

                         c,'^'itc4
        CONSIDERING THE BfcWSfSftE FUNDING SUBTITLE D H4S RECEIVED.

-------
S256.42     WE STRONGLY SUPPORT THIS AS AN ACTIVITY OF SUBSTATE
(b) and (c)
            UNITS, AND HAVE GIVEN IT HIGHEST PRIORITY FOR "PASSTHHOUGH"

            FUNDING.  THIS NEED EMPHASIZES THE NEED FOR INCREASED

            FUNDING OF SUBTITLE D OVER THE NEXT 4-5 YEARS TO ENABLE

            COMPLETION OF LOCAL PLANS.
S256.42
(e) and (f) THE STATE CAN NOT REQUIRE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS TO OBTAIN

            FACILITIES.  HOWEVER A STRONGER STATE ROLE AS RECOMMENDED

            MAY BE DESIRABLE.
                                                   c/
S256.42(g)  WHAT FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE^?  IT SOUNDS LIKE A CONSTRUCTION

            GRANT PROGRAM WILL BE AVAILABLE.
                  &

-------
  S256.43     AND OTHER SECTIONS DEALING WITH HAZARDOUS VfASTE.


              THESE ACTIVITIES SHOULD BE FUNDABLE BY SUBTITLE C OR D


              AND THE METHOD OF FUNDING A CHOICE OF THE STATE,


              WITH THE REGIONAL ADMINISTRATORS APPROVAL OF THE WORK


              PROGRAM AS WITH AJL FUNDING.

                 ?<*.<• t
                           THE AMOUNT OF PUBLIC PARTICIPATION , HEARINGS,
              MEETINGS, ETC. TAICES CONSIDERABLE TIME AND MONEY.  IT


              WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT TO MEET TIME DEADLINES AND COMPLY


              WITH ALL PUBLIC PARTICIPATION REQUIREMENTS.





  S256.63     THE OFFICE OF LANE POLLUTION CONTROL, OHIO EPA, STRONGLY


              APPOSES REQUIRING PUBLIC HEARINGS BEFORE THE ISSUANCE OF


              ALL FACILITY PERMITS.  OHIO LAW CURRENTLY PROVIDES FOR


              MEETINGS OR HEARINGS IF JUSTIFIED REQUESTS OR SUFFICIENT


                 EREST IS SHOWN.  WE ADVERTIZE ALL PROPOSED ACTIONS


              (APPROVAL OR DENIAL OF PERMITS) AND PROVIDE FOR A RESPONSE


              PERIOD.  IT IS HARD ENOUGH TO GET NEEDED SITES APPROVED


              WITHOUT WAIVING MORE RED FLAGS IN FRONT OF PROJECTS.
  £256\30Xc)  REQgf5l)j£J£HESE GRANGES IN PBOCBHEMENTS WILIXBE DIFFICULT
/2<_ /     .^ ^f^y   /      ^~^~^/         -        	
      <^_^--"/4NBr'™ffi 0ONSUMING HT'GETTINJ^THE LEGISLATION ' *HE S^ATE
              "      ///    --'       /f.          '  .   '      .-^X
              PLAN, CAKKONiY' RECOKMEND -^HE KIND jDF LEGISLATION NEEDED.
                  ^Zi-^-^            - /;      /^"           /  '
                     SHQIJLB^N^T HAtE T6 COMPLY^fTTH THIS REQUIREMENT


                                                        ' QtflDELINES.
             'THE,^ECOMMENDED AC^roNS IN S256.>r?) "ra/MEET/fBSE REQUIRE-
         /                    ^              '                ^

               lENTS APEA»UCH WEAKER THAN THE l/P^UIREM^Wl'S, BUT ARE
              MORE REALISTIC AND^gJiMENTABLE .

-------
           Environmental Protection Agency Hearing
                       October 26, 1978
                       Washington , B.C.
                                  __
                        .  Rpdney"~Edwards_.
                              resident"
                   American Paper Institute
I am delighted to have this opportunity to present this brief

but important statement on waste paper recycling in the United

States as it relates to resource recovery and solid waste

management programs.  The point I wish to make is that in all

solid waste management programs, based on resource recovery,

that is the recovery of recyclable materials from municipal

solid waste, there should be a priority for source separation

of recyclable waste paper.  Waste paper recycling is a large

and expanding industry and waste paper recycling mills must

have continued access to waste paper supply.


In 1977, the waste paper recycling industry collected 16.4 million

tons of waste paper.  All of this waste paper was source separated

from other solid waste, kept clean and collected separately,

for recycling in this country or for export.  The collection

rate in 1977 was 25" of all the paper consumed in this country.

This is a factor that is frequently overlooked.  Let me state

it again....Of all the paper consumed in the United States last

year, 25% was source separated and collected for recycling.


In any resource recovery program where municipal solid waste

is to be incinerated to recover its energy value, those

managing the program tend to want to maximize the "put-through"

of the combustible components in municipal solid waste.  Waste

paper is by far the largest combustible component.  Therefore,

-------
as resource recovery prograns are being developed,  there must




be a priority to preserve source separation programs for re-




cyclable waste paper.   In some cases,  municipal or  regional



resource recovery programs have attempted to preclude separate



collection of recyclable waste paper,  either by local ordinance,



in contracts, or in arrangements for financing.  Sometimes



preclusion of source separation of recyclable waste paper is



included in the consulting engineer's  proposal to the resource



recovery authority.  Frequently, neither the engineers or city




officials are aware of the waste paper recycling industry that



exists in their areas.  Frequently, incineration of solid waste



is labeled recycling of solid waste. This we feel tends to



discourage  those millions Americans who currently  source



separate waste paper for recycling.  There are over 1,500 waste




paper dealers in the United States located in and around urban



areas who act as the recycling centers for the paper industry.



They buy waste paper from collectors and sell it to the recy-



cling mills.  There are some 700 paper and paperboard mills in



the United States and almost e'very mill uses some recycled



waste paper.  200 of these mills depend exclusively on ivaste



paper as their raw material supply and depend on local source



separation programs.






Last year about 30%, or 3.1 million tons, of all the old news-



papers that were discarded after they were read, were collected



separately from other refuse,  for recycling.  Also about a little



over 30% of all the corrugated boxes used in this country were




separated from other wastes at retail stores, factories and



commerical buildings and collected to be recycled.   These two

-------
                              -3-
post consumer grades should continue to be recycled where a



market exists rather than incinerated to recover their energy



value.  Of course, for some waste papers and in some regions,



recycling may not be economical and in these cases incineration



may have a higher economic priority.  Recycling waste paper



is normally utilizing waste paper at its highest economic




value.  Also, as EPA studies point out when the waste paper



that can be recycled is removed from solid waste,  prior to



incineration, the BTU content of solid waste is reduced only




by a factor of 5% or less.  As the demand increases for waste




paper, solid waste authorities should be informed that the




economics are much more favorable toward recycling than toward




incineration and if in the future demand for waste paper



increases, where currently it is being incinerated, it should



be allowed to be separated from the waste stream for



recycling.






It is also important to point out that as the demand for waste



paper increases from the mills located in the United States,



the demand is also increasing from mills located overseas.  In



1977, 1.5 million tons of the 16.4 million tons collected, were



exported to countries in Asia, Europe and South America.   In



August of 1978, exports were running at a level of 2 million



tons per year.  August was the largest month for shipments,




about 178,000 tons were shipped overseas in just that one




month.  Export demand will continue to increase as the economy



in foreign countries strenghten and new capacity to recycle




waste paper is added.   Many foreign countries are  informing us



of their future needs for waste paper, and as the  United States




is the only major exporting country for waste paper in the

-------
                              -4-
world, they will be looking to us to collect waste paper and



export it to them.






We think it is most important that EPA establish a. priority



for source separation of recyclable waste paper in the form of



a public statement that we can use when talking to state,



regional and local solid waste officials.






We urge EPA to continue to dsvelop municipal collection programs



for old newspapers such as tiose now ongoing in over 200 cities




in the United States.  Many more such programs will be needed



to meet the increasing demand for old newspapers, and we would



like  to continue to work with EPA to develop more municipal




collection programs.






The American Paper Institute has an ongoing Communications



Program which has as its objective to inform the American



public on the need to source separate recyclable waste paper



and make it available for separate collection for recycling.



This message is aired on television and radio, and included



in news stories in the nations newspapers and magazines.  In



1979, we will be expanding th;.s program. In some cases there



will be opportunities to include EPA officials in the story




and we hope you will be willirg to lend your support.  We will




be reporting back to you as the story is told by  the nations



media.  Further, if  there are other opportunities to work with



EPA to expand waste  paper recycling in this country we will




welcome the opportunity to work together.






Thank you.

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                          taaC Softcf Pastes 
-------
The National Solid Wastes Management Association especially welcomes the




opportunity to comment on the proposed Guidelines for Development and




Implementation the State Solid riaste Management Plans developed under




the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976.  The association,




which represents 2000 members in the fields of waste collection, disposal,




resource recovery, hazardous wasste management, and solid waste equip-




ment, feels that comprehensive state and regional planning will be an




important factor in assuring environmentally sound programs for waste




disposal and resource recovery Jn the future.







We are particularly pleased with the approach of the supplementary




information section of the Guidelines as they appeared in the federal




Register on August 28.  The positions of the private waste management




industry are reflected in this introductory section.  NSWMA applauds the




inclusion of the following points in the Guidelines:






1.   A recognition that, despite all efforts to promote resource




     recovery and conservation, l:here will be a continuing need for




     sanitary landfills.






2.   A recognition that the state has a responsibility to assure




     sound disposal capacity, and may need to take a leadership




     position to overcome institutional problems with the siting of




     sanitary landfills.






3.   A recognition that a strong state posture is essential to assure




     the siting of hazardous waste  treatment and disposal facilities,




     and that the private sector las the capability to provide




     hazardous waste management services.

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                                 -2-







4.   A recognition that the plan must be developed with full




     participation by the public, including the private sector,




     and, specifically, that "awareness of private sector activities"




     is necessary for a. state to determine future facility needs.






While we support the framework and the approach of these Guidelines,




however, we do question some of the specific provisions.  We are first




concerned with the coordination between the open dump inventory to be




conducted under Section 4005 and the development of state solid waste




plans.  If the planning guidelines are promulgated in January of 1979,




state plans would be due to be completed by July, 1980, eighteen months




later.  The inventory will begin when the criteria for sanitary landfills




are completed, expected by July of 1979.  This means that by July 1980




when the plans are due, the inventory process will have been going on




for only one year.  Although the law requires the open dump inventory to




be completed within one year, it is recognized by nearly everyone,




including the Guidelines document itself, that such a task is impossible




to accomplish properly in that time-frame.  In the state plan, then, is




the state required to address only those facilities that have been




inventoried to date?  Or will the state plan, instead, identify the




procedure for conducting this inventory but not include a list of sites




until the entire inventory is complete?  NSWMA has advised the U.S. EPA




previously, with regard to the landfill criteria, that we feel an




inventory should be published only after it has been completed in its




entirety for a given waste shed.  The Guidelines should make clear to




states exactly how they are to address in the state plan these sites




that have not been surveyed at the time the plan is developed.

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                                 -3-







A second matter of concern to NSWM4. relates to the qualifications of




those persons who will be conducting the open dump inventory.  The




proposed state plan Guidelines recommend that "inspectors should be




trained and provided detailed instiuctions for checking on the pro-




cedures and conditions that are specified in the engineering plan




and site permit," and, further, that "assessment and prescription of




remedial measures should be carried out by adequately trained or experienced




professional staff."  The identification of open dumps, and, conversely,




sanitary landfills, is central to tae purposes of RCRA.  The U.S. EPA




has agonized for the past two years, along with public and private




interest groups, over establishing landfill criteria that will be




comprehensive, reasonable and precise enough to be measurable.  All such




efforts, however, are of little value if persons conducting the inventory




are not required to be trained for this purpose.  NSWMA recommends that




provisions for training inspectors aad other professional staff should




be a "requirement" for state regulatory powers under Section 256.20




rather than merely a "recommendation" as currently indicated under




Section 256.21.  :






Our third major comment relates to tte provision in the Guidelines and




in RCRA that a site identified as an open dump may obtain a compliance




schedule if it "demonstrates that it has considered other public or




private alternatives to comply with the prohibition on open dumping and




is unable to utilize such alternatives to so comply."  This requirement




that an open dump close when there is an alternative available is




most ambiguous.  What is an "alternative"?  By what standards and by




whose judgment is a determination mad£> that another facility is




available?  This provision in the Guidelines creates more problems than

-------
                                 -4-







it solves.  Clearly, a key goal of RCRA is to provide environmentally




sound disposal facilities.  NSWMA believes that, to the maximum extent




feasible, a disposal site should be encouraged to upgrade and that




closure should be an approach of last resort.  The difficulty of siting




new disposal facilities is discussed in the state plan Guidelines:  in




nearly every case the opening of a new landfill or resource recovery




facility is an extremely time-consuming process, which can be delayed




for several years.  It should be the intent of EPA and the states to




preserve existing landfills; if they can possibly be upgraded they




should be put on a compliance schedule rather than closed.







To achieve this goal, the planning Guidelines should be expanded to




define how the existence of an alternative is determined.  For example,




in evaluating the availability of an alternative facility, the effect of




increasing the waste load on the alternative site should be quantified.




What would be the effect of additional truck traffic and volumes of




wastes coming to this alternative facility?  Would such activity so




strain the resources of the alternative site that it would be in




jeopardy of becoming an open dump?  Further, the cost of upgrading an




existing facility should be compared to the cost of changing existing




transportation and disposal patterns to reroute waste to the alternative




site.  It should be noted that the costs of upgrading a private facility




are borne by the private facility operator and not by the municipality.






Our fourth and final point, which relates to all the issues raised, is




that there must be an assurance of adequate capacity in environmentally




sound facilities to take the waste that will continue to be generated.




Certainly it is not enough for a state plan simply to close all facilities




which do not meet the landfill criteria.  It may not even be enough to

-------
                                 -5-






upgrade all existing facilities.  The state and the substate regions,




through the planning process, must project the disposal needs into the




future and must assure that facilities will be provided which can take




these wastes in an environmentally sound manner.  While the supplementary




information section of the state planning Guidelines emphasizes this




point, the facility planning and Implementation section (Subpart e) of




the proposed rules should include stronger requirements to achieve this




end.  For example, Section 256.41 (e) requires that "environmental,




economic and other constraints on continued operation of facilities




should be assessed" as part of the plan.  It is not eno'ugh simply to




identify the constraints.  NSWMA urges the EPA to include language that




would require;the state also to identify options for overcoming obstacles




to facility siting.  Such approaches could include state override of




local zoning, development of a siting board, and other mechanisms.






Further, Section 256.42  (b), "Recommendations for Assuring Facility




Development," should be strengthened.  The section now states that "where




facilities and practices are found to be inadequate, the state plan




should provide for the necessary facilities and practices to be developed




by responsible state and substate agencies or by the private sector".




The language should be stated more positively that the state plan shall




provide for necessary facilities.  This is another recommendation that




should be made a requirement.







Sanitary landfills may be an "endangered species."  The cooperation of the




states, regional planning agencies, interest groups, and the private




sector will be necessary to assure that there will be facilities with




sufficient capacity to meet our future needs.  Once again, while resource




recovery initiatives are to be encouraged, we must not fool ourselves

-------
                                 -6-







into believing that large scale facilities will appear overnight or that




they will be able to take all the wastes of our communities.  EPA is




encouraged to use the strongest language possible in its planning




Guidelines to emphasize the need for a major state role in assuring that




sanitary landfills meet strict environmental standards, but moreover that




an adequate number of facilities will be available to meet future demands.







We appreciate the opportunity of sharing our comments with you today and




look forward to sharing in the development of individual state and




regional plans over the course of the next several years.  Thank you.

-------
          V'\          STATEMENT OF DR. ROCCO A. PETRONE
             PRESIDENT, NATIONAL CENTER FOR RESOURCE RECOVERY

    „  \           PUBLIC HEARING OIv PROPOSED GUIDELINES FOR
    V             DEVELOPMENT AND IMPLEMENTATION OF STATE
   V^                   SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT PLANS
 ^
\J                            OCTOBER 26, 1978
          I am pleased to have the opportunity to comment on the

     proposed guidelines for the development and implementation of

     state solid waste management plans, as required by the Resource

     Conservation and Recovery Act .

          I represent the National Center for Resource Recovery, a

     non-profit research organization involved in programs to help

     extend the understanding and implementation of systems to recover

     materials and energy from solid waste.  These include both source

     separation and capital intensive systems „

          It is my contention that in order to achieve the basic

     objectives of RCRA — environmentally effective disposal and

     conservation of resources — forms of resource recovery must be

     considered as an essential eleuent of solid waste management

     planning by an increasing number of jurisdictions that face waste

     disposal problems.  The rising costs of disposal, the difficulty

     of gaining new sites and the imposition of higher standards for

     disposal are factors that can only stimulate the search  Eor disposal

     alternatives.  Resource recovery offers the most substantive

     alternative; significant quantities of residuals can be diverted

     from disposal and conservation gains realized as a bonus.,

-------
     As a variety of systems and technological approaches are now



or soon to be demonstrated in large scale at a number of locations,



institutional problems will remain as some of the major barriers



to communities in considering recovery options.  I am particularly



impressed with the recommendations in Section 256.31 of the



guidelines which address a number of these such as contracting and



procurement.



     Resource recovery is, as is the solid waste disposal problems



to which it responds, local in nature and site specific in regards



to planning and implementation.  Yet the complexity and magnitude



of the undertaking are such that municipalities need assistance



and the support of state government.



     Overall, the guidelines are realistic.  It is important that



there be effective follow-through and necessary resources in order



to achieve the desired objectives.

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                    STA'CEMENT BY
      THE NGA SUBCQMMimEE ON WASTE MANAGEMENT
          GOVERNOR EDWIN EDWARDS, CHAIRMAN
                         ON
"THE STATE SOLID WASTE MANAGEMENT PLANS, GUIDELINES
FOR DEVELOPMENT AND IMPU5MENTATION," FEDERAL REGISTER
                   Augus-i 28, 1978
                   AS PRESENTED BY
DAVE JOHNSON, STAFF DIRECTOR, COMMITTEE ON NATURAL
RESOURCES AND ENOTRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT
NATIONAL GOVERNORS' ASSOCIATION
                         TO
        U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
           PUBLIC HEARING, OCTOBER 26, 1978
                  WASHING!™, D.C.

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     Good morning (afternoon), ladies and gentlemen.  I am



Dave Johnson, Staff Director, Committee on Natural Resources



and Environmetnal Management, National Governors' Association.



On behalf of Governor Edwin Edwards, Chairman, NGA Subcommittee



on Waste Management, I would present this statement on "State



Solid Waste Management Plans," Guidelines for Development and




Implementation, Federal Register, August 28, 1978.



     The Subcommittee Chairman expresses his regrets that he




cannot be here to convey these remarks or to answer any questions



you might have but would be most glad to respond to any written



questions on either this presentation or the detailed statement




to be submitted.



     The ultimate goal of the State planning process under



Subtitle D is the implementation of RCRA programs directly



affecting solid waste management at State and local levels of



government; assistance for State assumption of Subtitle C,



Hazardous Waste Management; and, the assurance that public and



private entities concerned with solid waste disposal adhere to



the environmental quality standards and criteria set forth in



Section 4004.



     The NGA Subcommittee on Waste Management has attested to and




fully supported the full implementation of RCRA goals and programs



before Congressional oversight committees, in EPA public hearings



such as this one today, and in oral and written statements as part



the state consultation required in the law.  One element that is



essential to the States' achievement of the planning requirements




set forth in the "Guidelines for Development and Implementation"

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is the Agency's overall strategy for implementation of RCRA—its



solid waste management, resource conservation and recovery and



hazardous waste management policies and expectations, as well as



intra-agency coordination activities with other environmental




statutes such as the Clean Wate'r Act, and the Safe Drinking water



Act.  The Agency's proposed strategy for implementation was



released earlier and comments sought in the January 19, 1978



public meeting.  The Subcommittee supported the development of



the implementation strategy and provided constructive comments




on revising that particular document to best reflect the State's



anticipated activities and capaailities under the state planning



functions outlined in Subtitles C and D.  That strategy document



for implementation is still sorely needed and would complement




the document under discussion today.  The Subcommittee, therefore,



strongly recommends that the comments received on the "Guidelines



for Development and Implementation" not only be reflected in the



final version of that document hut also be utilized in the re-



vision and release of the strategy for implementation document.



     The Agency has released a proposed tentative schedule: for



release of the draft and final versions of regulations, guidelines,



and notices required under Subtitles C and D.  This schedule



simply indicates the timeframe in which States can plan to




initiate, review and revise state and local solid waste plans



as well as state grant work outputs.  However, the development



of the State plan and work outputs will be severely constrained



without the States' full knowledge and agreement to the Agency's

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policies and requirements for implementation of RCRA and



coordination and/or integration with other statutes.  Consequently,



regardless of the final version of the document at hand and State



agreement and support for its particular requirements, States




will be hardpressed to fulfill the goals outlined.



     In short, the States efforts to fulfill the spirit and letter




of the requirements in "Guidelines for Implementation" will be




measured by



         •  level and duration of the Agency's committment to




            RCRA, especially Subtitle D;



         •  the release of the final version of the overall strategy



            document for public review and comment;



         •  the flexibility provided the State to phase in the



            activities under Section 4005 as determined by the



            availability of federal technical and financial



            assistance.



     A major portion of the States' solid waste plans under RCRA



will be composed of regional/local solid waste management plans



developed by agencies designated under Section 4002.  No direct



federal financial assistance for this effort was provided sub-



state entities in FY78.  Consequently, several States "passed



through" monies to sub-State entities in order to initiate the



planning activities under Subtitle D.  An increasing number of



States had indicated the intent to "pass through" additional



funds in FY79.  However, under the EPA Administrator's directive,



this "pass through" will be prohibited in FY79.  This directive




will directly and severely impact upon the achievement of the



scope and elements of the "Guidelines for Development and Implemen-



tation" at both the State and local levels.  Therefore, the Sub-

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committee would urge the Agercy to fully consider this dilemma
in the allocation of the FY79 funds appropriated for either
Section 4008 or Section 175, Clean Air Act—for a total of $33
Million.  The Subcommittee would suggest that the $4 Million of
these funds set aside for assistance to the State of New York for
management of the hazardous waste disaster in Niagara County not
be included in the total provided for federal assistance for local
planning efforts.  While support for the hazardous management
situation in any State cannot be denied, it should not be given
at the expense of assisting local planning efforts under Subtitle D.
     The Subcommittee has recommended and still supporbs adequate
federal financial and technical assistance to achieve the planning
and development requirements under Subtitles C arid D.  To this
end the Subcommittee, though the state consultation requirements
of Subtitles C and D, would suggest a "Camp David" with the
Agency to discuss a 5 year resource management program as part
of the overall RCRA strategy, especially in the coordination and/
or integration of Subtitle D planning efforts with other environ-
mental statutes.
     At this juncture I will simply highlight the specific comments
the Subcommittee will submit on the "Guidelines" and mention
that the comments were developed as the result of extensive efforts
of the Technical Task Forces, especially the State Solid Waste
Management Planning Task Force and the Landfill Technical Task
Force as well as the State Planning Work Group, which serve the
Subcommittee.  Those comments are
         o  support for the clear delineation of state planning
            functions from st.ite regulatory programs;
         o  public participat Lon requirements as required under

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            State administrative procedures act;




         •  provision for adequate enforcement capabilities



            within designated State agency but not incorpora-



            tion of those activities or regulations in the



            State plan;



         «  coordination of RCRA planning requirements with



            other State environmental planning requirements



            in order to better utilize fiscal and staff resources



            and to avoid duplication of efforts; and




         •  allowance for maximum flexibility to the designated



            state agency in the development of the plan:  in short,




            the plan should provide assurance of mechanisms to



            achieve compliance with Section 4004 not actually



            incorporate the specifics of the enforcement program



            which will vary from State to State.








Thank you for this opportunity to comment on the proposed guide-



lines and any questions you might have should be directed to



Governor Edwin Edwards, Chairman, Subcommittee on Waste Management.

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            Attendees—Public Hearing
    on Proposed Guidelines for Development and
  Implementation of Sta;e Solid Waste Management
                       Plans

                 October 26, 1978

Atkin, George, Jr.
P.E. President
Northwest Engineering, Inc.
929 West Lacey Road
Forket River, New Jersey  08731

Austin, John D., Jr.
Counsel
American Mining Congress
1200 18th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

Bagdan, Mark
NYS Energy Office
Policy Analyst
Agency #2
Albany, New York  12223

Baruch, David
Administrative Assistant
Howard County Maryland
Bureau of Environmental Services
3430 Court House Drive
Ellicott City, Maryland  21043

Herman, Eugene
Legal Department
E.I. Dupont De Nemoure & Company
Wilmington, Delaware  191398

Beyer, Nelson
Research Biologist
U.S. Fish & Wildlife
Patuxent Wildlife Research Center
Laurel, Maryland  20811

Beygo, Turhan
Environmental Planner
Prince George's County Dept. of
  Program Planning & Ecoromic Development
County Administration Blcg.
Upper Marlboro, Maryland  20870

Burns, O.B., Jr.
Director of Corporate
  Environmental Activities
Westvaco Building
299 Park Avenue
New York, New York  10017

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Cambourelis, Peter J.
Manager
Raytheon Service Company
Spencer Laboratory
2 Wayside Road
Burlington, Mass.  01803

Clark, Elton L., Ph.D.
Director, Government Relations
Rhodia Inc.
600 Madison Avenue,
New York, New York  10022

Cobb, Cliff
Solid Waste Project Director
National Association of Counties
1735 New York Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

Dietz, Joseph F.
San Diego G&E
P.O. Box 1831
San Diego, California  92112

Cunningham, Thomas J., Jr.
Senior Editor
National Center for Resource Recovery, Inc.
1211 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

Dollard, Elizabeth M.
Director, Policy Research
National Solid Waste Management Association
1120 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

Drance, Andrew
Washington Representative
Garden State Paper Company, Inc.
2020 North Fourteenth Street
Arlington, Virginia  22201

Dunn, J.J., Jr.
Executive Secretary
Institute for Solid Wastes
American Public Works Association
1776 Mass. Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

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Edwards, J. Rodney
Vice President
American Paper Institute
260 Madison Avenue
New York City, New York  10016

Erk, Leyla
Research Assistant
Rubber Manufacturers Association
1901 Penn. Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  2000i>

Gillman, Earl G.
Specialist, Regulatory Affairs
American Cyanamid Company
Engineering and Construction Division
Wayne, New Jersey  07470

George, Kathryn E.
Consultant to Occidental Resource
  Recovery Systems
P.O. Box 19601
Irvine, California  92"'13

Gladbach, Edward G., C.E.
Department of Water & Power
City of Los ANgeles
Room 1034, 111 North Hope St.
Los Angeles, California  90012

Hasbrouck, Douglas C., P.E.
Director
State of New York Energy Office
Empire State Plaza
Agency Bldg. 2
Albany, New York  12223

Hickman, H. Lanier, Jr., P.E.
President, Hickman Associates
1629 K Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

Jerabek, Sandy
Solid Waste Project
National Wildlife Federation
1412 16th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

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John, Douglas H.
Division of Solid Waste
State of Maryland Dept. of
  Health and Mental Hygiene
201 W. Preston Street
Baltimore, Maryland   21201

Laman, J.R., P.E.
Corporate Manager
The Firestone Tire & Rubber Company
1200 Firestone Parkway
Akron, Ohio  44317

Lindsey, Alan M., P.E.
Coordinator Air  & Solid Waste
International Paper Company
P.O. Box 16807
Mobile, Alabama  36616

Morgan, Alan
Research Associate
NACO
1735 New York Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

McFadden, Robert H.
Senior ANalyst
Motor Vehicle Manufacturers Association
1909 K Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

Nelson, Robert J.
Coatings Engineer
National Paint Y Coatings Association
1500 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

Nessa, Scott
Staff Specialist, Solid Waste
League of Women Voters
1730 M Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.

Norton, Lawrence, Jr.
Manager, State and Regional Affairs
National Agricultural Chemicals Assoc.
The Madison Building
1155 Fifteenth Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20005

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Pannell, Richard
JRB Associate
8400 Westpark Drive
McLean, Virginia  22101

Peters, Robert A.
Environmental Planner
Vesar Inc.
6621 Electronic Drive
Springfield, Virginia  22151

Rogers, Margaret
Legislative Assistant
Printing INdustries of Aiterica, Inc.
1730 North Lynn Street
Arlington, Virginia  22209

Shapiro, Marc F.
Staff Associate
National League of Cities
1620 Eye Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

Smith, Earl E.
Division Superintendent
Portsmouth Public Works Department
#1 High Street
Portsmouth, Virginia  23704

Steen, Sharon L.
Debevoise & Liberman Associates
806 15th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20005

Stotler, Chris
Chief Division of Planning
  & Technical Assistance
Ohio EPA,
Columbus, Ohio

Taylor, Darold W.
Vice President
National Clay Pipe Institute
1130 Seventeenth Street, II.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

Tinnell, William R.
Manager, Secondary Fibre Department
The Chesapeak Corporation of Virginia
P.O. Box 311, Route  30
West Point, Virginia 23181

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Vignovic, Anne
Assistant General Counsel
United States Brewers  Assoc.,  Inc.
1750 K Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20006

Warren, Wayne L.
Technical Assistance Specialist
Veterans Administration
810 Vermont Avenue
Washington, D.C.  20420

Wyche, Brad
Attorney
Wald, Harkrader  & Ross
1320 19th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

Woodson, D.L.
Solid Waste Disposal Manager
Roanoke Valley Regional  Solid
  Waste Management  Board
P.O. Box 12312
Roanoke, Virginia   24024

Wiechmann, Richard  J.
Director, Environmental  Affairs
American Paper Institute
1619 Mass. Avenue,  N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036

Young, James
AMSA Director of Legislative
  Services
Associate of Metropolitan  Sewage Agencies
Suite 200
1015 18th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C.  20036
                                             no 1759
                                             SW-46p
                                             Order Ho. 732
      
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