OOOR78106
UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
OFFICE OF NOISE ABATEMENT AND CONTROL
PUBLIC HEARING
PROPOSED MOTORCYCLE NOISE EMISSION REGULATIONS
AND
MOTORCYCLE REPLACEMENT EXHAUST SYSTEMS
VOLUME III
Monday, May 1, 1978,
9:00 o'clock, a.m.,
Garden Grove Room,
Anaheim Convention Center,
Anaheim, California.
Ci
Macauley & Manning
Court & DcDCSition Reporters
1630 E PulmSt • S*nti An«, Calif
• 1253)43713??
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INDEX
MEMBERS OF HEARING PANEL PRESENT;
HENRY EVANS THOMAS, IV, Ciiairman
RICHARD KOZLOWSKI
SCOTT EDWARDS
RONALD NAVEEN, ESQ.
VICTOR PETROLATI
PUBLIC PARTICIPANTS:
COUNCILMAN RICHARD NAGEL, City of
El Segundo p. 5
DUDLEY PERKINS, Dudley Perkins Co. ... p. 23
CAROL PLANT, BMW Motorcycle Owners
of America, Inc p. 56
FRANK PUCCILLI p. 79
JOHN WALSH, U.S. Suzuki Motors
Corporation p. 86
KARL S. PEARSONS, Bolt Beranek and
Newman Incorporated p. 155
JAMES TAYLOR p. 169
ROGER HAGIE, Kawasaki Motors
Corporation, USA p. 172
JERRY ROSEN, Alphabets Custom West. ... p. 218
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SAM WHEELER, MCM Manufacturing . .
TIM RUNNER, Specialty Equipment
Manufacturers Association
JIM GROGAN, Kendick Engineering Co.
RUSS COLLINS, RC Engineering Co.
p. 237
p. 249
p. 263
p. 286
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PROCEEDINGS
CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Good morning, ladies and
gentlemen. I'm Henry Thomas, United States Environmental
Protection Agency. We are continuing today the fact finding
hearings which commenced here on Friday, April 28, 1978,
with regard to Noise Emission Standards for Transportation
Equipment, Motorcycles, and Motorcycle Replacement Exhaust
Systems Regulations that are proposed by the U.S. Environmentil
Protection Agency in the Federal Register of March 15, 1978.
For those of you who have not been with us during
the preceding two days of these fact finding hearings, let
me provide you a brief introduction.
This is a fact finding hearing. It is non-
judicial in nature, and non-adversarial. We desire to obtain
information and views of any interested parties who care
to speak before us relative to these proposed rules.
These hearings, of which this is the first, will
be continued next week, or later this week, in Tampa, Florida
and the following week in Washington, D.C.
The comments made here are being transcribed.
Copies of the proceedings of these hearings will be
available for inspection at each of the ten EPA regional
offices' freedom information centers. Copies may be obtained
directly from the private firm contracted to provide this
transcript. Their address, and particulars related to
(213) 437-1327
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1 obtaining copies may be obtained through our receptionist,
2 at the door.
3 We will ask each of those who have asked to speak
4 before us today to limit their remarks to between ten and
5 fifteen minutes, if at all possible. Additional background
6 material may of course be provided either today or
7 subsequently during the public comment period for incorporation
8 into the record.
9 Following the comments made by those who speak.
10 we would ask that you entertain questions from the EPA
11 Hearings Panel. Let me now introduce the members of that
12 Panel:
13 I am Director of the Standards and Regulations
14 Division for Noise Programs for EPA. To my left is Mr.
15 Richard Kozlowski, who is Director of the Noise Enforcement
16 Division of EPA, responsible for the enforcement of these
17 regulations when they are finalized. To his left is Mr.
18 Victor Petrolati, who is the officer reporting to Mr.
19 Kozlowski, and directly responsible for the preparation of
20 the enforcement part of these regulations. To my right is
21 Mr. Scott Edwards, the Program Manager responsible for the
22 technical development of these regulations in the Standards
23 and Regulations Division. And to his right is Ronald Naveen,
24 counsel within the Environmental Protection Agency for
25 noise related matters,
26 Before we commence, may I ask if there are any
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1 comments or questions from anyone in the audience, at this
2 point? (No response to the question.)
3 Or any of you who have not yet indicated a desire
4 to speak and do decide later on to speak today, either let
5 me know personally today at your convenience, or inform one
6 of the receptionists, and we will make arrangement for you
7 to speak on the schedule.
8 I understand we have had requests by Mr. Collins,
9 Mr. Grogan, and for Mr. Perkins, who want to speak before us
10 today, and they will be incorporated.
11 We are pleased this morning to have as our first
12 witness Councilman Ronald (sic) Nagel, of El Segundo,
13 California. Councilman, please.
14 RICHARD NAGEL
15 Thank you, although I think I had better correct
16 the record. The first name is Richard. I'm a Councilman
17 from the City of El Segundo, California. I have been a
18 Councilman for some fourteen years, and during all of that
19 time I was involved with noise abatement programs, first
20 for my own City, which is adjacent to Los Angeles
21 International Airport,,and then for the cities of California.
22 I was asked to chair the Quiet Cities Committee
23 for the League of California Cities., and later I was
24 Chairman of the Environmental Quality of the State League
25 for some three years, and I have been a member of the
26 National League of Cities Environmental Quality Steering
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1 Committee for the past five years.
2 Up until the time of the Quiet Cities Committee
3 Report in California, the people in this State suffered
4 all the noises that annoyed them because they thought that
5 it was the price of progress. They didn't think that
$ anything could be done about it.
7 Our Committee suggested to them that there was
8 something that could be done, and the noise of motorcycles
9 was probably the easiest to solve, providing there was a
10 will to do it.
11 The jet noise provided the incentive to get
12 tough about noise. There was a new noise sort of gaining
13 on us, the tremendous popularity of motorcycles and their
14 potential for noise.
15 Our Committee found that all of the communities
16 in California suffered, to some degree, from this annoyance.
17 Our California Vehicle Noise Law attempted to deal with it,
18 but like air conditioning, we found that little could be
19 done without some sort of universal source control.
20 Even though many manufacturers attempted
21 campaigns to convince their customers that they would have
22 more area to ride in if they didn't disturb the landowners,
23 by and large the availability of loud replacement mufflers
24 won out over the quiet programs.
25 Local law enforcement efforts were difficult.
26 In our area, nuisance citations for loud mufflers were
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I treated as equipment violations which only had to be
2 corrected by being cleared through the Marshal's Office
3 without a fine, and then the owner was free to ride home,
4 replace the quiet muffler, put the baffles back into the
5 muffler, and go about his loud ways.
g I was pleased to serve on the Advisory Committee
7 that the EPA formed during the course of the formulation of
g this proposal. I found the activities very helpful to me,
g and very enlightening
IQ I will now present the following statement on
11 behalf of the City of El Segundo:
12 I appreciate the opportunity to present testimony
13 at this hearing. Motorcycle noise is one of the most
14 bothersome of our environmental problems. It is unnecessary,
15 easily eliminated mechanically, serves no useful purpose,
16 and is not the result of any other socially needed function.
17 One wonders why we, as a society, have tolerated
18 this for so long. Now, at last, the tools to end it are
19 in sight, and I commend the EPA for their effort in this
20 area.
21 Even though the City of El Segundo is immediately
22 adjacent to the L.A. International Airport, one of the major
23 concerns of the citizen is the noise emanating from
24 motorcycles. We feel that not much can be done about the
25 airplanes since the FAA is in control there, but that we
26 needn't allow motorcycles to run rampant.
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1 Until now, it appeared that we had no tools to
2 work with. If citations were given, they were quickly
3 disposed of in the courthouse, and the loud motorcycle would
4 be out in the road again.
5 Nearly all of the motorcycles that are a problem
6 in our community are those that have modified mufflers, or
7 no mufflers at all.
8 Since we are a transportation noisy community,
9 I can recall no instances where any vehicle noise, regardless
10 of how quiet it would be, would disturb our citizens. It
11 is primarily a problem of intrusive noise that intrudes well
12 above our normally high ambient background, ambient noise
13 level.
14 I look to the regulation regarding the replacement
15 mufflers, and the anti-tampering provisions of that
16 regulation, being the most important of the entire regulation
17 The reduction of noise from newly manufactured
18 motorcycles will also be a great help.
19 The new regulation would make it possible for a
20 local jurisdiction to more easily enforce noise rules. In
21 California, we will have to ask the State to pass enabling
22 legislation. The State, in the past, has indicated a
23 willingness to work with the local government to solve
24 these kinds of problems, and I see nothing.that will
25 interfere with that relationship now.
26 My City will fully implement the new regulation to
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1 the fullest extent, as soon as possible. We were one of
. 2 the first cities in the State of California to have a
3 comprehensive noise control program, and we intend to stay
4 in front of the problem with motorcycle noise.
5 Thank you very much for the opportunity.
6 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you very much, Councilman,
7 Would you entertain a few questions from us?
8 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Sure.
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you.
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Councilman, does the City of El
11 Segundo have an anti-tampering law?
12 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: No, sir, we don't. In
13 California, the Vehicle Noise Law is preempted by the State,
14 and the State Vehicle Code, The extent of our activities
15 in enforcing motorcycle noise have been citations by the
16 Police Department, and as I related, they normally go to
17 the court and get them cleared by the Marshal.
18 About a year and a half ago, we -- by "we" I
19 mean our Police Chief, and our Mayor, and myself — met with
20 the presiding judge of our Municipal Court, and we asked
21 him not to treat these citations as equipment violations
22 any more, that we wanted them to go before him as an
23 appearance, and we wanted him to fine the violators very
24 stiffly the second time they came before him.
25 Being a very small community, we can do this,
26 because most of the loud motorcycles in the community are
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1 pretty well known by the police officers themselves, so it
2 was a very informal way of, the police officer would write
3 on the ticket that this person had been cited for this
4 violation previously. In a large city, you couldn't very
5 well do that, because when that message was on the ticket,
6 regardless of whether it was just a loud muffler, or a
7 modified muffler, or no muffler at all, that ticket would
8 automatically then go before the judge.
9 We haven't had an awful lot of difficulty with
10 it, but we haven't had any challenges to its legality either
II because being in a misdemeanor area there is very little
12 likelihood that that would happen, but we do have some fear
13 that we may not be acting in a forthright legal manner, but
14 it's effective.
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you, sir.
16 MR. PETROLATI: Do you envision your enforcement
17 program changing significantly as soon as the regulations do
18 come out? In other words, will you revert to enforcing with
19 the sound level meters, or will you still enforce by ear, as
20 far as the police officers are concerned?
21 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: I would tend to think that in
22 our department that the sound level meter would be used as
23 an aid to the citation after there is a subjective determinat
24 made the office is going to determine that, he has a loud
25 motorcycle on his hands and then will probably use a noise
26 meter. I know some cities that we have talked to have set up
on
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1 programs of running the motorcycles through noise traps so
2 to speak and recording the level of noise.
3 I don't see our particular community doing that
4 but we are very small, we're only fifteen thousand people,
5 and I don't think that the degree or the number of motorcycle
6 we have would entail would involve us in that kind of a
7 program.
8 However the regulations the anti-tampering the
9 matchesf the matching of the mufflers is going to give us a
10 great deal more information to provide the courts to back
11 up our citations.
12 Larger cities in California that I have talked
13 to briefly about this subject tell me that they will put on
14 a full-fledged noise abatement program for motorcycles once
15 this regulation is passed.
16 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, carrying that question a
17 little bit further. When a police officer does stop a
18 violator through a subjective type of method, the ear, do
19 you envision if the arresting citizens -- the arrested
20 citizen -- feels that he's been unduly citied? Do you
21 envision conducting a test on the road right there at the
22 citation? In other words, the stationary test using a
23 weighted value? Or would you refer him to some sort of a
24 testing station to have that test conducted?
25 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: We would probably refer him
26 to a testing station which would be set up very near the
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police station. As I — again --.takirg into account we are
a very small city and only five square miles, so he would
probably be directed over the the police station immediately
and — for a test. It wouldn't be that far out of the way.
MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Thank you very much,
Councilman.
MR. EDWARDS: Councilman Nagel, you said that in
your community, which has a great deal of aircraft noise,
that the citizens have evidenced concern about motorcycle
noise too. How do they evidence this concern?
COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Personally. Telephone calls
to myself and other councilmen. Some four years, four and
a half years ago, we had --we commissioned an organization
to do an economic profile of the community, and in conjunctior
with that economic profile was a qu.estionaire that dealt
with the environmental quality of the community.
There were some six hundred people in the
community that were questioned on what they felt were the
biggest environmental problems in the community. Some
eighty per cent of them mentioned motorcycle noise right
along with aircraft noise as one of the biggest nuisances in
the community.
MR. EDWARDS: Do you have a written report on
that study?
COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Yes, sir; we do.
MR. EDWARDS: Could you submit that into the
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1 record, please?
2 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: I can mail it to you. I don't
3 have it with me.
4 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, that would be fine.
5 In your community, do you have one police officer
6 who works strictly on noise, or do you have all of the police
7 officers that play some small fraction of their duties?
8 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: We have a Noise Control Officer
9 in the community who switches hats between being Director of
10 Public Safety, and the Director of Public — Director of
11 Building and Safety, and the Noise Control Officer, because
12 an awful lot of our noise is involved with building
13 regulations, zoning regulations.
14 All of our police officers are briefed on our
15 noise ordinance and the methods of enforcing them, and what
16 our expected standards are as established by the City
17 Council, so we don't have any one police officer that is
18 assigned to the job.
19 I understand that all of our motor patrol
20 officers, bot the motorcyle officers and the automobile
21 patrol officers, are able to cite and make determinations
22 on noise.
23 We have four hand-held type noise meters in the
24 Police Department. They are available in each one of the
25 black and white cars, and can be available very quickly to
26 the motorcycle officer also.
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1 MR. EDWARDS: Do you get the feeling that most
2 of the citations are issued by the Noise Control Officer,
3 or by the beat officer?
4 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Vehicle noise citations are
5 issued by the beat officers.
6 MR. EDWARDS: So noise is one of their concerns?
7 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Yes.
8 MR. EDWARDS: And actually, it is not just a
9 question that they are cognizant of the rules and they know
10 what they might be able to do in a case of noise violation
11 and they actually go out and do it?
12 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: That's right.
13 MR. EDWARDS: All right, sir. Another question:
14 You say that the police officers are aware of who in the
15 community have the loud motorcycles. Are they also aware
15 of who in the community, if there are any, are dealers or
17 other service organizations that might perhaps be contributinj
18 to the problem in excess?
19 ' COUNCILMAN NAGEL: That's very easy in my
20 community, Scott. We don't have anyone that sells motorcycle;;
21 I believe they go to an adjacent community to purchase, but
22 the sales places are well known but outside of our jurisdiction.
23 MR. EDWARDS: Final question: Is there any
24 problem in your community with off-road motorcycles?
25 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Yes. I think that is
26 prbably one of the major problems. You see, in California,
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at least in the urban areas, the off-road motorcycles are
generally taken out in the remote areas and driven on the
weekend, and then the rest of the week they're home in the
garage and being tuned up, and repaired, and raced up and
down the street to make sure they were tuned right and
working right, and I think that's once of the problems with
the motorcycle noise in the community, that is, the off-road
8 motorcycle being repaired by those people that own them.
9 MR. EDWARDS: I see. Councilman, thank you
10 very much.
11 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Thank you.
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I have a couple of them for
13 you please, if I may.
14 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Sure.
IS CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I'd like to get a better
16 understanding than I have on the preemption element in the
17 State law with respect to local communities such as El
18 Segundo:
19 With respect to penalties which can be imposed,
20 or may be imposed, I understand that the State law governing
21 motor vehicles is clearly preemptive. Does that preemption
22 hold with respect to penalties which may be imposed for
23 violation of those State regulations of the State law?
24 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: It is my understanding that
25 the penalty part of the violation of the State laws is
26 handled at the local level. The fines that are levied for
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1 vehicle violations, and speeding violations, reckless
2 driving, noise violations, such and so forth, are handled
3 at the local level by the local municipal court, and I
4 would assume that the judges or the local municipal court
5 would have the full jurisdiction over what fines to levey,
6 how to handle probations, such and so forth.
7 But I'm not being a person completely well
8 versed in how the courts would handle that situation, I'm
9 only speaking from conjecture as to the relationship we have
10 had in the past with the court. You see, they seem to have
11 full jurisdiction on what fines to levy up to the limits of
12 those set down by the law.
13 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I assume that the Council then,
14 or the City, could set maximum fines for offenses, then,
15 following what you're saying?
16 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: To up to a limit, yes, . . .
17 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Up to a limit, yes.
18 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Up to a limit.
19 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Does El Segundo have a different
20 severity of fines with respect to modifying exhaust systems,
21 willful types of actions, which could be shown here, as
22 opposed to a product simply not meeting a sound level
23 because, for some other reason, degradation perhaps, misuse
24 product, but something that would be clearly willful change
25 to the product where you clearly have removed purposely the
26 baffles, for example, in an exhaust system? Have you
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1 considered this, and do you have a penalty, up to this point?
2 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: It would appear to be a
3 reasonable differentiation to make on the fines, We have
4 that in our rather informal relationship with the court now.
5 The one other thing that the arresting officer,
6 the citing officer, puts on the ticket is, and very informall
7 worded, he says, "In my opinion this muffler has been
8 muffled," I mean, "this muffler has been modified," or,
9 "this muffler has been selected to generate a large amount
10 of noise," and in that case the judge has told us that he
11 will treat those with a little more severity, but it's all
12 up to the judge, depending on how severe he wants to deal
13 with the violator.
14 We can point these — we worked it out with them
15 so we can point these things out to them, and so he would
16 have the information at the time he makes that determination,
17 but we haven't set any particular scale or differentiated
18 at this point by ordinance or any other way other than this
19 vary informal manner, but it would certainly follow that
20 when we get into a more formal procedure on this, assuming
21 that these regulations are implemented, that that would be
22 one of the things that we would consider.
23 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I take it there, from your
24 comments then, that there have been citations issued by
25 your police officers with respect to motorcycles? Yes?
26 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: That's correct.
CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you have, or perhaps, could
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1 you provide to us, the sum feeling based on the citations
2 issued, and the penalties imposed, as to what levels of
3 penalties had, in fact, been imposed by local judiciary with
4 respect to how many, say, violations, have, in fact, been
5 reported?
6 What we are looking for here is some relationship,
7 How many citations have been issued? Essentially, what kind
8 of penalties have actually been imposed on these citations
9 issued? How many dismissed, if they were dismissed? What
10 kind of basis there was for it? Your feeling for how the
11 judicial system is actually responding to this particular
12 kind of problem.
13 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: I am not sure that I can
14 provide you with all that information. Part of the
IS information, the number of citations issued, and the
16 particular violations that are on those citations, could
17 be furnished very easily.
18 Once I get into the courts, the City is furnished
19 gross data on how — on what fines have been levied, and
20 for instance, out of five thousand tickets we've levied
21 one hundred and fifty thousand dollars worth of fines, and
22 we have dismissed forty of them, but I don't think there's
23 any data kept or furnished our City.at the present time
24 that would indicate on a ticket-by-ticket basis just
25 exactly what is happening.
26 We could get some feeling, I would imagine, from -
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1 perhaps we could get that information from the court if we
2 asked them to keep it. I don't know. I can find out, and
3 if'I can gather the data, I would be happy to furnish it to
4 you.
5 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Councilman, I would very much
6 appreciate it if you could. If you find, in looking into
7 this, that that data is not available in a suitable form,
8 I would appreciate if you could also tell us that, because
9 clearly, one of the parts to the solution of this problem
10 is the judicial element itself.
11 No matter how good the regulations may be, no
12 matter how good the test procedure is, and the citations
13 being able to be written by enforcement officials against
14 that test procedure, but if the judicial system then has
15 some other problems existent, we need to identify those
16 as soon as possible.
17 We've been asking these questions of several
18 city officials. You are the first official that I've asked
19 this question of specifically in these hearing, and I
20 intend to ask others.
21 This data is not available on a national
22 aggregated basis, clearly, and it's not available on a
23 state level, I can't find it there either, so this kind of
24 information can only come from the operative level of
25 American governments, and if you all can help us, I would
26 be very, very pleased.
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1 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: I will certainly make an
2 attempt to do that.
3 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: One last line of questions, if
4 I may: I take it El Segundo issues business permits for
5 firms to conduct business in your community. Is that . . .
6 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: We issue business licenses --
7 but perhaps I'm trying to presume your next question. I'll
8 let you make the next question, (Laughter)
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, yes. The next thing
10 that's coming is, on what basis can a license to do business
11 be revoked, which is to say, either a firm which might be
12 identified as having manufactured and distributed, in
13 commerce, products not in compliance with the regulations --
14 hopefully, they would be identical regulations by the local
15 community — and therefore, what would have to be the basis
16 for El Segundo to remove the business license of a firm
17 engaged in activities which are clearly in violation of
18 Federal regulations?
19 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Well, I hope you won't be
20 offended, if you compare it with our efforts to remove
21 undesireable massage parlors from the community, but this
22 is the same kind of a question that is involved, as to how
23 to control an unwanted business for whatever reasons they
24 are unwanted.
25 Unfortunately, there aren't very many ways that
26 We can do that. If the business conforms to all the
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1 building and safety laws, they have the right number of fire
2 exits, and the building is not a nuisance, and provide the
3 right amount of parking, and they maintain the building in
4 a forthright manner, there's very, very little we can do to
5 control what they do within that building if it is a lawful
6 pursuit — if it is not something that is against our laws.
7 That I can tell you up in front is that most
8 cities that are pressed on an issue, though, will find ways
9 of harassing the business, but that's not the kind of a
10 thing that a community does unless they are really desparate,
11 and they have an awful lot of little old ladies in tennis
12 shoes knocking on your door and complaining about some kind
13 of a problem
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, in this case, what I
15 was looking to is a little further-down the road, of course,
16 and that is, if we are able to identify firms who are
17 selling products, for example, which do not comply with
18 Federal regulations; in other words, that you can show that
19 they do not comply with Federal regulations.
20 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: We would probably notify the
21 Federal agency that is responsible for enforcing the
22 regulations that that was going on.
23 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, of course, that's an
24 action that we can take, and we can take them to court for
25 failure to comply, and hopefully . . .
26 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Once it's been pointed out.
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1 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: That's right. . . . and
2 hopefully, at some point, we can resolve it.
3 On the other hand, there are much quicker processeŁ
4 which can sometimes be effected than that long drawn out
5 judicial element that the Federal government will go through
6 here, and that is, if the community, likewise, would look at
7 the problem, we were able to have sufficient information
8 that there is, in fact, a violation of Federal regulations
9 taking place, would you be interested, for example, in
10 taking such an action as lifting a business license?
11 I just don't know.
12 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: I don't think that under our
13 general law charter that we can do that.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Uh huh.
15 COUNCILMAN THOMAS: This is the same kind of
16 questions we were asking, again in relation to the massage
17 parlors, if we could just simply lift the business license,
18 and it would have been a much simpler solution than the
19 one of making sure that everything was just so.
20 There are a number of regulations, like Federal
21 government and local government, that you can enforce very
22 stringently, and to make it difficult for a person to carry
23 on an illegal activity.
24 Business licenses in California.are generally
25 concerned -- considered to be revenue producing devices and
26 not a regulatory device.
(Ill) 417.1327
MACAU LEY ft MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALIF.
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1 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Yes. And obviously, if you
2 use the device for regulacory purposes, you're not generating
3 the revenues you like to get.
4 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: That's true.
5 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I think that's where we see
6 the conflict?
7 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Anything else?
9 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: No.
10 ' CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Councilman, thank you very much
11 for taking your time coming in here and talking to us today.
12 You've been very helpful.
13 COUNCILMAN NAGEL: Thank you very much.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I would like to hear from Mr.
15 Dudley Perkins, at this time, if he is here.
16 DUDT SY PERKINS
Good morning, Mr. Chairman Thomas, and members
of the panel, thank you for giving me the opportunity to
express a few brief remarks about a person who has been a
20 motorcycle dealer, and a member of a family business that
has been the exclusive Harley-Davidson dealer in San
22 Francisco since 1914.
23 I am fifty-four years of age. I'm married and
24 have five children, three boys and two girls. Two of my
sons are working in the business with me now. One son,
twenty-six years of age, is managing our parts department.
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1 My fourth child and third son, who was twenty-one a month
2 and a half ago, is a full-time student at the University of
3 San Francisco, and a part-time employee of our business.
4 When I look at his pay check on Friday and I see his part-
5 time hours, which are averaging in excess of fifty hours a
6 week, I think he is carrying a pretty good load, and I'm
7 very proud of his -- as I guess every father has a right to
8 be about his sons and his children — very proud of his
9 progress to date.
10 In November of 1975, he suffered an unfortunate
11 accident, a motorcycle accident. He was on his way home
12 from work at 6:30 in the evening and proceeding through an
13 intersection that was controlled by a signal light — he
14 had the green light — and he was run into and run down
15 by a hit-and-run truck.
16 He subsequently lost his right foot and a portion
17 of his left leg. He has made, in my mind, a spectacular
18 recovery, thanks to some very good doctors, and with the
19 help of the good lord, to a point where he is carrying this
20 full-time load at school, and working for us, and riding
21 his motorcycle, and getting back to a motorcycle that is
22 a kick start motorcycle instead of the previous one that
23 he had, which was an electric start motorcycle.
2* As I said previously, our business was started
25 by my father, who was deceased in February of this year at
"> the age of eighty-four, and in 1912 he started, with a
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1 partner, and at that time it was Maggini and Perkins, and
2 they represented the Ace and the Henderson motorcycle, which
3 probably very few of you have heard about in this room.
4 These firms no longer exist. They have been out of business
5 for many years.
6 In November of 1913, my father bought out his
7 partner, and obtained the Harley-Davidson franchise, and
8 we have consistently and continuously, from that time, been
9 the exclusive Harley-Davidson dealer in San Francisco.
10 My father was on an intimate relationship with
11 the founders of the Harley-Davidson Motor Company. He was
12 most interested in competition in motorcycle racing and
13 hill climbing, and was himself a man who held some number
14 of championships in motorcycle hill climbing over the years.
15 His interest in competition continued throughout
16 the years. He has sponsored motorcycle races throughout
17 his life and through most of our business history, and if
18 there was anything that my father and I almost fell apart
19 on, it was the amount of money that I saw being spent to
20 keep motorcycle racing and our business going, as it is a
21 very expensive sport, it is a very expensive method of
22 advertising, and, in my estimation, we didn't belong in that
23 business as a dealer.
2^ We employ currently, at this time, fourteen
25 people in our organization. Our total annual payroll in
5fi
*** 1977 two hundred sixty five thousand four hundred and eleven
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1 dollars. Our mechanics' hourly wage -- which, incidentally,
2 we are a union shop, and have been since the late 30's --
3 our mechanics1, journeymen mechanics' hourly wage, is ten
4 dollars and twenty dollars and twenty-eight cents an hour.
5 This will be increased in June of this year to ten dollar
6 and fifty-three cents. This gives him an annual salary of
7 twenty thousand eight hundred and sixty-three dollars a
8 year.
9 So you can see that our employees, at least for
10 Dudley Perkins Company, San Francisco, are fairly well paid
11 at the wages that we pay, and the customer labor rates that
12 we have to charge, which, incidentally, is thirty-two
13 dollars an hour, we must have, on a continuing basis,
14 skilled people. We can't tolerate a marginal producer.
15 Our gross annual sales have exceeded a million dollars since
16 1970.
17 My own involvement with our family business and
18 Harley-Davidson began in 1947, upon my completion and
19 graduation from the University of San Francisco, and after
20 a four-year tour of duty in the Maine Corps I goc married
21 and went into our business on a full-time basis, and I have
22 continued, since that time.
23 Over the years, I have participated, and have
24 been a contininuing and ongoing member of the Northern
25 California Harley-Davidson Dealers Association, which is
26 one of the oldest dealer associations in the United States,
(113) 437-1177 MACAUUEY 0c MANNING. CANTA ANA. CALIF. (714) 3SI-V400
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1 meeting six times a year, addressing common problems of the
2 motorcycle business, how to improve ourselves, make ourselves
3 more businesslike.
4 I am the immediate past-president of the Californi|a
5 Motorcycle Dealers Association, and was president of that
6 association for two years. We represent approximately
7 fifty per cent of the seven hundred odd motorcycle dealers
8 in the State of California. Before that period of time, I
9 served for two years as treasurer of that organization.
10 Again, the objectives of this type of an
11 organization have been to make motorcycle dealers in
12 California a more professional group of businessmen and
13 business people, trying as much as possible to take what is
14 best from the automobile industry, and more professionalize
15 ourselves, and leave what we consider to be poor in the
16 automobile industry by itself and not adapt or continue
17 those practices.
18 The Harley-Davidson Motor Company approximately
19 five years ago inaugurated an organization for the first
20 time which was called the Harley-Davidson Dealers Advisory
21 Council, and of course, over the years, although some
22 dealers would think that a factory-dealer relationship is
23 adversarial — and sometimes it is; and dealers have always
24 wanted to tell management how they should make their
25 motorcycle, and what they're doing wrong -- the factory
26 addressed that problem by forming this Dealer Advisory
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1 Council, and I was one of nine dealers selected for the
2 first time, and I was elected by my fellow dealers as
3 chairman of that first Harley-Davidson Dealer Advisory
4 Council, and served in that capacity for three years.
S It enabled us, as dealers, to see the problems
6 of manufacturing, that most dealers do not see.
7 At that time, Harley-Davidson was addressing
8 the problem of noise, and mufflers, and what they saw down
9 the road as potential and pending legislation about
10 motorcycle owners keeping their exhaust systems in the
11 fashion in which they purchased it from the dealer.
12 Now, that's easier said than done, and I'm sure
13 that many of you are aware of the tremendous individuality
14 of motorcycle riders, although I don't think, really, they
15 are any different than any other group of Americans. We
16 all pride ourselves on our rights to our individual rights.
17 But, over the past five or six years, I have
18 seen the problem of straight pipes, modified exhuast systems,
19 instead of being an irritant in the marketplace, subside and
20 grow to a -- as far as our own business is concerned -- a
21 very minor problem.
22 Perhaps we, in our organization, have helped that
23 our by attempting to convince customers, by our own actions,
24 that what they are going to do is not going to improve the
25 performance of the motorcycle, and when a motorcycle dealer
becomes convinced of that himself, the fact that a modified
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1 exhaust -- i.e., a straight pipe, or a loud muffler -- does
2 not make a motorcycle perform any better, he then finds it
3 much easier to convince his customers, and with the possible
4 exception of the fact that, in some years in the past,
5 different exhaust systems looked, perhaps, a little better,
6 cosmetically, on a motorcycle than the original factory
7 equipment, we haven't had too much problem with customers
8 who wanted other than the original equipment exhaust systems.
9 We do not stock anything but Harley-Davidson
10 parts and accessories, which, of course, includes exhaust
11 systems and mufflers, and when we get a request to install
12 other than Harley-Davidson factory equipment, we say that
13 we don't stock that kind of equipment, and in our estimation,
14 to put it in the vernacular, those systems are mickey mouse,
15 beyond the fact that the mufflers generally are not long
16 lasting, the hardware to install and keep them up and
17 mounted in an orderly and workmanlike fashion, is generally
18 not to the standards of Harley-Davidson, so we attempt to
19 convince the customer that he's buying himself a problem,
20 not so much from a noise and a law enforcement standpoint,
21 but from an economic standpoint, that is, he may be back
22 having it fixed, or having problems keeping it on the
23 motorcycle, in the long run it would be cheaper for him to
24 leave it alone.
25 I was invited to come and speak for myself as
2® a dealer, and I think I can speak for the Harley-Davidson
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1 dealers nationally, by John Davidson, and I, earlier last
2 week, in a magazine that's called the Motorcycle Product
3 News, in an article entitled Product News Legislation, which
4 you gentlemen may have seen --if not, I can make copies
5 available to you -- there's an article that addresses the
6 Federal Noise Regulation, and in the next line they say,
7 "the other shoe drops."
8 Part of that article, it seems to me, that the
9 EPA may be entertaining a remedy of the motorcycle noise
10 problem that is perhaps taking the step of, down the road,
11 perhaps eliminating the Harley-Davidson Motor Company.
12 Beyond the intended impact, or the effective
13 impact, which that might have, of the loss of approximately,
14 apparently, three thousand jobs in the Harley-Davidson
15 Motor Company, I think the other effect that you have to
16 look at is the impacu that it would have on the dealer,
17 the Harley-Davidson dealer network, at large.
18 At the current time -- and I do not have exact
19 figures — but the Harley-Davidson Motor Company has in
20 excess of seven hundred dealers, and probably less than
21 seven hundred and fifty dealers.
22 If you were to take an average of rather than
23 fourteen employees that we have, an average throughout the
24 country of seven employees per dealership, you might then
25 have another loss of forty-nine hundred jobs, and when you
26 look at the payroll that we pay, which is probably the most
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1 expensive in the country as far as mechanics are concerned •
2 it may not be as large as some larger dealerships -- when
3 you look at the economic impacts of that situation, and
4 that elimination of the only remaining American motorcycle
5 manufacturer, I think that perhaps those are rather severe,
6 and unconstitutional if you will, methods of achieving an
7 objective.
8 I was interested and pleased to hear in your
9 preliminary comments, Mr. Thomas, the fact that this is not
10 an adversarial proceeding, and I would hope that, in your
11 deliberations and your taking of testimony, as you continue
12 going after the solution of this problem, that you will
13 continue with that viewpoint.
14 I think, at this time, gentlemen, I would be
15 pleased to take any questions that.you might have for me,
16 and attempt to answer them to the best of my ability; and
17 again, thank you, panel, for the time you have given me.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Perkins, it's a pleasure
19 having you here today, and I particularly want to thank
20 Harley-Davidson for bringing you to speak before this panel.
21 We have had a dearth of dealers sign up to talk to us,
22 either here or elsewhere in the country, and some of the
23 comments that you have already made that I think it is very
24 important for us to hear. It is not just the manufacturers
25 that are affected by this rule making, and dealers better
2" get in here and start talking to us, and I'm glad to see
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1 that Harley and you have apparently arrived at that decision
2 as well. It is important to the industry that you speak,
3 Again, I want to thank you for that.
4 I would like to ask you a couple of questions,
5 if I may, please. Mr. Perkins, you indicated in your
5 comments that perhaps the noise problem associated with
7 motorcycles is subsiding, and you gave a couple of comments
8 to elaborate on that thereafter.
9 How do you, as a dealer in motorcycles, the man
JO who has made a profession of selling, and repairing, and
1] maintaining motorcycles, how do you perceive the public's
12 view of motorcycle noise?
13 MR. PERKINS: I think what you say, how do I
U perceive the public, and what they think of motorcycles?
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: It's a very subjective question,
16 asking for a very subjective answer, and that is, the
17 general public, not the motorcycle riding public necessarily,
18 but as a dealer and an individual who sells the product
19 in here, repairs and maintains that product, how do you see
20 or visualize, if you do at all, the public's perception
21 of motorcycle noise?
22 MR. PERKINS: That's a toughie, Mr. Thomas, and
23 I don't think that the public, in general, thinks, today,
24 that motorcycles -- and this is completely contrary to what
25 the Councilman said, from El Segundo — I don't see
26 motorcycle noise being the problem that it was in past times.
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I think that, from the spectrum of our customers
that we have today, which touches all strata of society,
those people who are buying motorcycles from us, and from
all of the other dealers that represent all the other makes
in the marketplace, are having people come to them as first
time customers, or repeat customers, who, ten or fifteen
years ago would&'t be caught dead on a motorcycle, so I
8 think that says to you that the general public has changed
its thinking about the fact that motorcycling isn't as bad
10 as we thought it was, that, as Honda struck in one of their
11 advertisements, you meet the nicest people on a Honda.
12 You do meet some very nice people on motorcycles,
13 and despite what people have said in the past, and what
14 people thought about motorcycling, and motorcycles per se,
15 throughout the years — my time in the motorcycle business
16 and my father before me ~ ninety-nine per cent of our
17 customers across the years were just as good as the whole
18 rest of the American population, the working stiff, the
19 doctor, lawyer, whoever it might be, most people are good
20 people, they want to do what's right by themselves.
21 The only thing wrong with a motorcycle is because
22 of its very tremendous maneuverability, and the fact that
23 its engine and its exhaust system is out in front of
24 everybody, when the minority of the motorcycle riding
25 public act in an uncharitable and unsafe way, the rest of
26 the motorcycle riding public is indicted by that very small
(111) 417.132? MACAULEY & MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALir. (714) SSM400
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1 minority who is very seen -- it's easy to see a motorcyclist
2 who is operating in an unsafe way, and being noisy about his
3 motorcycle; and really, I don't think so much noise is the
4 problem as is the problem of -- particularly on freeways
5 where a motorcyclist will become impatient and tend to cut
6 in and out, and those kinds of things, irritate automobile
7 drivers.
8 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I appreciate your answer.
9 Do you stock and sell motorcycles other than
10 Harley-Davidsons?
11 MR. PERKINS: We do not. We are exclusively
12 Harley-Davidson, have been, and as far as I'm personally
13 concerned, I hope to continue in that capacity exclusively
14 as long as Harley-Davidson stays in business, and I hope
15 their demise is not imminent.
16 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We share that hope.
17 MR. PERKINS: I've got two sones that, I think,
18 if they can learn to live with each other, can continue in
19 a very successful business that's done a lot for a lot of
20 people.
21 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: It's my understanding that
22 Harley-Davidson manufactures and distributes a muffler
23 exhaust system designed to go on bikes which are to be
24 used in competition; is that correct?
25 MR. PERKINS: I guess so. Really, I can't
2" answer that question because I remove myself from racing
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1 completely. We don't sponsor any racers.
2 First of all, Harley-Davidson makes a very
3 limited amount of racing motorcycles. They are manufactured
4 almost to order. A person that wants to buy a professional
5 Harley-Davidson motorcycle racer has to put in his order
6 in advance, has to put up a substantial deposit with the
7 dealer, his delivery is a year down the road, that motorcycle
8 is exclusively for racing only, not designed to be ridden
9 on the streets —" can't be ridden on the steets, has not
10 lighting system, and the mufflers that go, or the exhaust
11 systems that go on that motorcycle do not fit, as far as
12 I'm aware, the street motorcycle that we sell, so we don't
13 stock anything like that, we don't have any demands for .it
14 from our customers.
15 They are satisfied, by and large — and I'm not
16 sitting up here — or standing up here sanctimoniously and
17 tell you that I have never sold any illegal exhaust systems,
18 I don't say that.
19 I sell what Harley-Davidson provides, and I
20 assume that Harley-Davidson is providing us with legal
21 exhaust systems, and as I mentioned in the past we attempt
22 to dissuade our customers from changing their exhaust
23 system, and in fact, on a new model that we have, a "69"
24 model of the Harley-Davidson 1000 cc Sportster with the new
25 exhaust system, very much up to date, very stylish, and
26 the motorcycle looks good, that particular motorcycle won't
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take any other exhaust systems which are presently in the
parts book and available for sale from the factory.
There are many — I won't say "many" — there are
certainly an amount of after-market manufacturers that
furnish exhaust systems for Harley-Davidson motorcycles.
Those after-market suppliers specialize and achieve most of
their success in selling to — in my estimation -- other
than franchised motorcycle dealers, and in California, there
are a lot of what we call "chopper shops" who, not being
franchised dealers, would not have the ability to buy
Harley-Davidson — legitimate, authorized, Harley-Davidson
parts from the Harley-Davidson Motor Conpany who sells only
to its authorized franchised dealers, so therefore they must
depend on the after-market manufacturers for their supply
of parts, and there, in my estimation, lies part of the
problem.
I don't wish to indict the after-market
manufacturers either because there are some legitimate
manufacturers who are doing as much as our factory is doing
about coping with the noise problem, and attempting to keep
them in compliance.
CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I've got several more questions,
but I want to turn to my colleagues and let them ask any
questions they may have first.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Perkins, one of the problems
we have in quieting motorcycles is the modified bike, the
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1 modified muffler. In your opinion, is there anything that
2 dealers can do — some things that perhaps you have done --
3 dealers can generally do to eliminate or prevent people from
4 modifying their bikes, or at least reducing the incidents?
5 Is there anything perspectively, things that dealers could
6 do that have not been done, to quiet the motorcycle?
7 MR. PERKINS: I think the impetus on that problem
8 should come from our factories — not only our factories,
9 but any motorcycle manufacturer's practice. They should
10 begin and do what Harley-Davidson has quietly done with us,
H Harley-Davidson dealers, attempt to convince the dealer
12 network that it is not in their best interests and the best
13 interests of their customers to encourage their customers
14 to alter the factory installed exhaust system.
IS It takes a little more trouble — in some cases,
16 a lot more trouble -- with a particular customer to convince
17 him of the fact that his intended actions, or his desires
18 to alter the exhaust system, are, in the long run, going to
19 be detrimental for him and every other motorcycle rider, but
20 the same as it takes -- excuse me -- more trouble for a
21 dealer to sell his proposed customer on the benefits of
22 paying full list price, or close to full list price.
23 You certainly have to take more efforts to do
24 that than you have to do to address a customer who comes
25 in with a request for a price by giving a price right off
26 the bat that is three or four hundred dollars under list
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1 under list price. It's much easier to give it away; it
2 doesn't take any effort to give it away.
3 So, I guess what I'm trying to say to you is,
4 our dealers can continue to be educated with the impetus and
5 push from behind of the factory, that it is to their best
6 interests, and the motorcycling in general, that their
7 customers be convinced that they should leave their motorcycles
8 alone, and as we now do and have done for at least four or
9 five years, we have taken the time to do that with our
10 customers.
11 You certainly can not characterize the Dudley
12 Perkins Company as a high volume dealer. Most Harley-
13 Davidson dealers could not be categorized as that either,
14 as opposed to some Honda dealers that are selling a thousand
15 to fifteen hundred motorcycles a year.
16 The ability of the motorcycle dealer selling in
17 that volume to take the extra time, you might not expect
18 him, nor get him, to do it, but with the type of customers
19 that we have, I find that the time that we spend with each
20 customer is productive of long term relationships, and that
21 the referral business that we get from our customers who
22 bring us in additional new customers is worth taking the
23 time to do it, and it's a matter of education.
24 Education is sometimes painful, but I think it
25 needs to be done.
26 Not to change the subject from what you're
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1 currently talking about, but in the last year I have spent
2 fifteen thousand dollars of our company's money to address
3 a problem which I think is more severe, and needs more
4 attention, than the noise problem right now, and that is,
5 motorcycle safety, and you would think that manufacturers
g and dealers would be more attentive to that thing because
1 their customers, and potential customers, are being injured,
g maimed and killed, and I think more can be done to address
9 that situation and make the automobile driving public more
IQ aware of the fact that they are the people responsible for
11 most motorcycle accidents,
12 But, that's what I've done, and I find that
13 sometimes my thoughts, and my attempts to address that
14 problem, go on deaf ears, somewhat the same as perhaps
15 you're finding with some people in the industry about
16 motorcycle noise.
17 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Do you think that dealers,
18 generally, would hang posters that say, "Don't mess with
19 your exhaust system. It is illegal. And you foul up
20 performance," as in the case of Harley-Davidson bikes. Do
21 you think your dealers would do that, generally?
22 MR. PERKINS: I think they would. Again, I guess
23 we all have to be treated as children, and we have to have
24 a father image, or somebody on top saying, if you don't
25 do this, that's going to happen. Well, I think it is
26 incumbent upon our factory, and all motorcycle manufacturers,
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I to take the lead in that plan of action, and to follow up
2 by their sales force in the field to see that their dealers
3 are doing it. The more — let's see — the "Less sound,
4 more ground" two, or three, or four years ago, started off
5 very nicely. The impetus didn't seem to be there to keep
6 it continuing. We've still got the small posters around
7 our establishment.
3 But, those types of things would have an effect,
g and let's face it, there would have to be somewhat of a
IQ club in the background to help get the dealer who hadn't
U been too concerned about doing that to realize the value
12 and importance of it, and when you put it down to his being
J3 able to remain in business, and his livelihood, then he
J4 might take a different approach.
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Fine. Thank you, sir.
IS MR. PETROLATI: Well, first of all, Mr. Perkins,
17 for your information, and for the record, I have heard of
18 both the Ace and the Henderson motorcycles. I just recently
19 p-ut together small scale models of both, so I'm pretty
20 knowledgeable as far as Ace and Henderson are concerned.
21 Now, I'm not quite sure I understand your actual
22 sales according to after-market exhaust systems. Do you
23 sell after-market exhaust systems besides your regular
24 equipment systems?
25 MR. PERKINS: We do not.
26 MR, PETROLATI: Okay. The original equipment
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1 systems that you sell in the after-market line, are they
2 identical to the systems that are sold with the Harley-
3 Davidson motorcycle?
4 MR. PERKINS: Well, there are exhaust systems
5 which went on motorcycles which were manufactured previous
g to those being manufactured now, say, motorcycles that were
7 manufactured before the most recent legislation that governs
8 what dB(A) that a muffler must achieve.
9 Those'systems which, for all practical purposes,
10 did not achieve 83 dB(A) also can be put on later model
11 motorcycles that also have exhaust systems that do achieve
12 that level.
13 When a person says to us, he wants to modify his
14 existing system which meets the present regulations, by
15 putting on a system which doesn't, we say to him, we can't
16 do it, we won't do it in our service department, we can't
17 prevent you from buying what we sell to fit an older
18 motorcycle, we don't think you're smart, but I'm afraid that
19 I can't take a self-rightious position and be a judge or a
20 policeman for everybody that comes in our store and say,
21 "I won't sell it to you," because if I won't sell it to him,
22 he will go down the road and buy it from somebody else,
23 and I'd rather see him have a Harley-Davidson exhaust system,
24 which is better manufactured, than some other after-market
25 manufacturer's system which is not,
26 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, I understand.
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42
Do you have any knowledge, as far as the
motorcycles you sell, what percentage are subsequently
modified by those individuals buying those motorcycles?
I guess, if the motorcycle comes back for some
type of repair work, or warranty work, something along those
lines, you may happen to notice how many of those motorcycles
have been subsequently modified.
8 Can you give me some sort of a percentage?
9 MR. PERKINS: Pretty tough to do that, because
10 I don't—may I should get up in the service department
11 oftener — my guess -- and it's probably a pretty good
12 horseback guess — that approximately ten to fifteen per
13 cent of the customers that buy motorcycles from us end up
14 altering their exhaust systems in some way by putting on
15 another Harley-Davidson exhaust system.
16 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Once our regulations do
17 go into effect — of course, you're aware that we are going
18 to be regulating replacement exhaust systems — subsequently
19 you will know which replacement exhaust systems will not
20 increase the level of those Harley-Davidsons over the
21 standard.
22 Will that change your policy as far as selling
23 replacement exhaust systems?
24 MR. PERKINS: Absolutely ....
25 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, thank you very much.
26 MR. PERKINS: ... We'll take the stance that
(213) 417-1327 MACAULEY ft MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALlf. (714) 551-9400
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A3
1 to continue elaborating on your question on the following,
2 we'll take the stance that the new emission rules have put
3 put on Harley-Davidson motorcycles, and now we have a mix of
4 product on our showroom, we have motorcycles that were
5 manufactured before January 1, 1978, and motorcycles that
g have been manufactured after January 1, 1978.
7 Those after January 1st have more stricter
g emission standards on them, to comply with those emission
9 standards Harley-Davidson had to manufacture and fit on
10 the motorcycle a larger air cleaner, it's very obvious.
11 You see, it's not cosmetically so bad that it's
12 turned people off of buying both models of those motorcycles.
13 There's one with a smaller air cleaner which cosmetically
14 looked a little better, the other was a bigger air cleaner,
15 but when you set one alongside of the other, and the color
15 that the customer wants is the motorcycle that was manufactured
17 after January 1, 1978, and has the larger, theoretically
18 more objectionable, air cleaner, he'll take that motorcycle
19 because it's the color that he wants, and in conjunction
20 with that, when we talk about motorcycles with smog equipment
21 on them, to help reinforce our position of not altering
22 the motorcycles, we inform the customer that for a dealer
23 to alter that emission system in any way is a fifteen
24 thousand dollar fine, and we tell the customer that we
25 don't pretend to waste fifteen thousand dollars of our hard
26 earned money altering that system for you, and perhaps making
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1 it a less eff cient, poor performing, motorcycle.
2 We've been able by our own riding of both models
3 of motorcycles, both those with emission equipment and those
4 without, to determine that the performance was not affected,
5 and I think it comes down to how you come across to the
6 person that you are talking to.
7 If you are a con-man, you are not going to
8 address that problem at all. You are going to gloss over
9 it. And it sticks out like a sore thumb. And I'm not
10 patting myself or our organization on the back. We aren't
11 con-men. We can't remember the amount of lies that you
12 would have to tell to con people into buying motorcycles,
13 or steering them away from one to the other. We have found,
14 over the years, that the truth comes out the same all of
15 the time because it is the truth, and you can't remember
16 the lies, so you had better not lie, or you had better not
17 get caught at it.
18 MR. PETROLATI: One last question, Mr. Perkins:
19 Have any of your customers come back with complaints about
20 deteriorated mufflers? In other words, do you have an idea
21 how long that original equipment system would last on a
22 motorcycle?
23 MR, PERKINS: I'd say we don't hear any complaints
24 about the long-lastingness of our exhaust systems. It's
25 characteristically and typically Harley-Davidson. It's big,
26 heavy, and there's lots of iron and steel in it, and it
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1 lasts.
2 And I don't say that to compare us to the Japanese
3 manufactuers in that their systems don't last. I don't
4 know. I don't pretend to know a lot about their model
5 motorcycles, and I give them all their credit and due, they
g are a very real threat in the marketplace.
7 I see Harley-Davidson as a product that epitomizes
8 to the motorcycle buying public what a motorcycle really
9 should be, and the people that come in who are either first
10 time buyers, or second time Harley-Davidson owners, or
11 previous Japanese motorcycle owners, almost unanimously
12 they come in and say, "I had a Honda, it's a good motorcycle,
13 but this is really what I think a motorcycle should be,"
14 and that's why I think the Harley-Davidson has a unique
15 place in the marketplace, and I don't see, and hope that
IS our company does not have to turn itself around and end up
17 as an Americanized Japanese-type motorcycle.
18 I would say, that is the demise of Harley-
19 Davidson.
20 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr.
21 Perkins.
22 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Perkins, as Mr. Thomas said,
23 we really do appreciate the opportunity to talk to you
24 today. You are the first dealer that we have had an
25 opportunity to talk with, and I hope not that you may be the
26 last, so I would like to ask you a series of questions, not
(21)1 4J7-UJ7 MACAULEY ft MANNING. «ANTA ANA. CALIF. (7U) S5M400
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1 as a Harley-Davidson dealer but as a dealer in motorcycles,
2 so that none of my question here are directed specifically
3 in a ponder in any way against Harley-Davidson.
4 Do you --at the outset, at least, let me say,
5 that this extended impact of our regulations not only on
6 the manufacturers . . . (derisive laughter) There must be
7 something about air pollution this way. . . . the extended
8 impact of our proposal not only on the manufacturers . . .
9 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE PARTICIPANT: You would
10 have to go back to scratch to do that.
11 MR. EDWARDS: . . . not only on the manufacturers,
12 but on the dealers, was very much in the mind of our Agency,
13 and it is included in the analysis, and we're very concerned
14 about any possible extended impact.
15 Could you please, very briefly, describe how
16 your business is broken down between sales of new vehicles,
17 used vehicles if indeed you are in that business, service
18 and replacement parts?
19 MR. PERKINS: I suppose I ought to have those
20 figures at the tip of my tongue and right in my head . . .
21 MR. EDWARDS: Very general.
22 MR. PERKINS: I would say, our sales of new
23 motorcycles compose about fifty per cent of our business,
24 about twenty per cent — or I'd say, today, it's more in
25 the vein of ten to fifteen per cent are used motorcycles,
26 and the balance split up over parts, accessories, and the
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1 service department, and if that's an important --if the
2 importance of that answer — if there is more importance
3 than just the general way in which I have answered it, I
4 would be happy to provide you that breakdown; and secondly,
5 I would encourage you, if you want more dealer participation,
6 to seek it out through the manufacturers, and perhaps have
7 a general set of questions that you might like to have
8 answers to so the dealers could come prepared.
9 MR. EDWARDS: That might be a very usable
10 suggestion.
11 The reason I asked the question is that we are
12 looking forward to not only the impacts on the motorcycle
13 in terms of cost, but what happens if — we hope it does not
14 happen -- what happens if demand drops slightly because of
15 the increased cost, or other impacts, on the motorcycle.
16 I was trying to understand exactly what portion
17 of your business is attributed to the sales of new motorcycle
18 and the care for the ones that are already on the road.
19 MR. PERKINS: Well, to go on a little further,
20 you may not realize it, but in San Francisco, Harley-
21 Davidson motorcycles sell from a low of thirty three hundred
22 and thirty-three dollars to a high of forty-nine hundred
23 dollars before sales tax and license.
24 Our business is almost exclusively, and I would
25 say ninety nine and ninety nine one-hundreths per cent, in
f6 the large motorcycle category.
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1 Harley-Davidson has not been able to survive in
2 the lightweight motorcycle business because of the tremendous
3 competition that we have from the Japanese, so finally, our
4 company has taken -- or at least I hope they've taken — a
5 stance that I have advocated for a long period of time, we
6 don't belong in the lightweight motorcycle business because
7 we can't compete successfully there, why not devote our
8 efforts to the big end of the motorcycle market which is
9 where we do best, and where we, perhaps, can do better, so
10 you are talking about very expensive motorcycles.
11 Generally speaking, I would say that three-quarter
12 of the dealer networks are able to sell their motorcycles
13 at very close to list price, so you're talking about big
14 dollars.
15 If to achieve the sound requirements that you
16 are talking about, we had to add four or five hundred
17 dollars on to a motorcycle somewhere down the road just to
18 make it comply as far as noise is concerned, I would say
to that any of those kinds of increases make it damn tough to
20 sell. It's hard to sell as it is.
21 The motorcycling business as far as Harley-
22 Davidson is concerned I would say is almost exclusively a
23 recreational, a liesure business, for our buyers. They,
24 generally speaking — most of them don't ride their
25 motorcycles back and forth to work. Most people who own
26 motorcycles today are not riding their motorcycles as much
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1 as they used to.
2 It was not uncommon, ten years ago, to have some
3 motorcycle owners and riders have that method of transportation
4 as their only one, so they were riding their motorcycles a
5 thousand miles a month. That, today, is the exception to the
6 rule. I would say that most of our buyers and owners today
7 are riding their motorcycles about six thousand miles a year,
8 and less.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. You said that the parent
10 company convinced you, personally, and the other people on
11 your staff, that these new exhaust systems do not rob the
12 motorcycle of performance. How do they go about doing that?
13 MR. PERKINS: They go about it via the method
14 of, when a new model year comes out, the factory provides
15 us with descriptive literature which is not for the customer
16 but is for the dealer organization, and talking about the
17 features of the motorcycle for that particular year, why
18 this new thing, why that new thing, the advantages of it
19 over another, so most responsible dealers are going to
20 make their employees aware of the changes, and the reasons
21 for them.
22 This is followed up in regular Harley-Davidson
23 sponsored and service clinics in which field service
24 representatives hold meetings for the dealer organization
25 in all parts of the country, and recently there was one
26 concluded a month and a half ago in Livermore, California,
(111) 417-1117 MACAULCY & MANNING. «ANTA ANA. CALir. (714) 55M400
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1 in which all of the Northern California dealers had members
2 of their staff in attendance, and at that particular meeting
3 this particular subject was talked about.
4 MR. EDWARDS: Okay, but it was in descriptive
5 terms, they didn't actually get you out on a motorcycle?
6 MR. PERKINS: No, no. I think the dealer -- most
7 Harley-Davidson dealers beyond being dealers are riders, and
8 they ride a motorcycle on a daily basis, if not back and
9 forth to work, certainly in riding their own new motrocycles
10 or customers' motorcycles, and they're aware of what's going
11 on.
12 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Perkins, you have been up here
13 a long time, and I have one final question for you. ' This
14 is as a Harley-Davidson dealer.
15 One concern that has been expressed to us and
16 what we are very aware of is the sound of a Harley-Davidson
17 motorcycle having a very unique appeal. I was just going
18 to ask you about the current situation.
19 From Mr. Davidson discussions on Friday, I think
20 it is probably clear that the exhaust note of the current
21 83 decibel Harley-Davidson motorcycle is considerably lower
22 than it was in the past.
23 I gleaned this at the very least, because he
24 said that they were going to have to start working on the
25 engine very hard to get it any lower than this, which tells
26 me that the exhaust is very iowv~~aind-you said that as 'far as
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1 you could tell, only ten to fifteen per cent of the motorcycl
2 that you sell, when they come back for service, have been
3 modified.
4 Does that mean that the Harley-Davidson purchaser
5 is satisfied with the sound of the current 83 decibel
6 Harley-Davidson motorcycle?
7 MR. PERKINS: I think so. The people who change
8 their systems are mostly customers who have had more than
9 one motorcycle, and for whatever reasons, want to maintain
10 the old appeal, or the old sound, that they formerly were
11 used to.
12 I don't find, today, on the sales floor, with
13 the customers that come in, the resistance to the standard
14 exhaust system that there was in the past.
15 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Perkins, thank you very much.
16 CHAIRMAN EDWARDS: I've got a couple of last
ones for you, sir. You've been at this for quite a time,
but I don't want to let you go until I go through this
next one, if I may.
2" We have, I guess, reason to believe, Mr. Perkins,
that one way or another, there s going to be a requirement
22 that newly manufactured motorcycles be quiet.
23 Now, even if we weren't here representing the
feds from Washington today, you are already faced with
statutes for the State of California requiring lower noise
emission levels in the future. In fact, they get down quite
:s
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1 a bit lower, as you may be aware, of what the Federal
2 government is proposing to require, so one way or another,
3 it looks to us, at any rate, that one or more states,
4 comprising a fairly significant market, will require lower
5 noise levels, even in the absence of the Federal standards.
6 How do you perceive that this is going to be
7 dealt with by your firm, which is an exclusive Harley-
8 Davidson firm, with Harley, at the present time, being on
9 the upper side of noise levels in terms of new manufactured
10 volume sold in the U. S. today?
H In other words, even if we weren't here today,
12 you would still have the problem — or at least Harley
13 would still have the problem in front of them. Surely, you
14 have given this some thought.
15 MR. PERKINS: In answer to that I would say this,
16 that over the years, I have found that Harley-Davidson, one
17 way or another, and sometimes later rather than sooner, has
18 found ways to cope with those problems and achieve a
19 satisfactory solution, and I'm afraid I'm not enough of an
20 engineer, or sound engineer, or mechanic, to know how they
21 are going to achieve that solution, but I think they will
22 find a way, and I think "big daddy" AMF is certainly going
23 co nelp them to their best interests, and I don't think
24 although our share of the market is less than ten per cent,
25 i don't think they want to lose that because, dollarwise.
26 it's a pretty nice hunk of their revenue, and I think they
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1 will find a way to cope with that.
2 I only hope that the requirements imposed by
3 anybody don't force them to change what our customers tell
4 us is what they think a motorcycle ought to be, and I'm
5 afraid that they think a motorcycle has to have an acceptable
6 level of vibration and noise, and I guess it's up to us to
7 convince you all, and the State of California, that an
8 acceptable level of noise is at, or around, or very little
9 below, where we currently are, and I think that, as dealers
10 look at this problem in a more serious light than they had,
11 perhaps, in the past, they can help themselves by tending to
12 hold a rubber hammer over their customers and say, "Look,
13 if you like this motorcycle the way it is, leave it alone,
14 or otherwise you're not going to have it."
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Have you seen any evidence, Mr.
16 Perkins, that Harley has taken that position through its
17 media relations directed to the purchasers, users, owners,
18 of their motorcycles?
19 MR. PERKINS: I don't think so other than the
20 precautionary and the admonitions that are in an owner's
21 hadbook. They are very out front about changing anything.
22 They use the publication, if you will, that alterations or
23 changes merely void the warranty, and I think those
24 admonitions are reasonably underlined or boldface.
25 Let's face it, a motorcycle enthusiast and a
26 prospective purchaser, when he gets down to the point of
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1 being within twenty minutes to a half an hour of taking
2 delivery on his new motorcycle, even if he is an experienced
3 and a more than one time motorcycle owner, he doesn't listen
4 too much to the admonitions that you're giving him, to a
5 point even of not looking at how his name was spelled on
6 the Department of Motor Vehicles license application.
7 "Read the contract, please. These are the
8 precautions in there. This is what you're buying. This is
9 what it is costing you." And the excitement of buying a
10 motorcycle I'm afraid overcomes all of these admonitions
11 and precautions that you are trying to lay into him.
12 So, we have found over the years, and particularly
13 in the last half dozen years, the better we prepare our
14 customers before the day of delivery, the better off he is
15 going to be, and the better person, and a better buyer, and
16 a better rider he's going to be.
17 Motorcycle thefts have been a very big problem.
18 Harley-Davidson, until recently, has been the most desired
19 motorcycle from a theft standpoint. So, just as much as
20 telling people why they should buy Harley, we tell them
21 how much they should take care of their motorcycles.
22 And we have found we have had the best success
23 with those kinds of things by talking about that in the
24 course of a prospective sale, and again I refer back to
25 saying that our dealership is not a systems house, if you
26 will, not a high volume place of business, and we have the
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1 luxary in most instances of the time to do these things on
2 an orderly progressive basis, and where we have had that
3 time, we have achieved a fairly good success, and I think
4 it is going to be up to the dealer in the future to attempt
5 to establish that rapport with their prospective customers.
6 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: It's my understanding, Mr.
7 Perkins, that Harley has undertaken some fairly significant
8 initiatives to push the wearing of helmets by purchasers
9 of Harleys. Is that right?
10 MR. PERKINS: Yes, it is.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Have you seen anything in any
12 way comparable to that with respect to bringing the noise
13 problem to their users' attention?
14 MR. PERKINS: I don't think I can — again, sad
15 to say, I may be remiss in not reading completely the
16 rider's handbook, and the other information which is made
17 available to the buyer.
18 I can't really say that their attempts to have
19 customers leave their exhaust systems alone have been at
20 the level which they encourage people to wear helmets.
21 And again, I think it comes down to the man at
22 tht end of the firing line, and I think that's the dealer.
23 i think it's incumbent on Harley-Davidson, and all motorcycle
2* manufacturers, to do a better job of educating and bringing
25 up their dealer to be a successful professional businessman.
26 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, sir, you have been very
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1 helpful. We've kept you for an awful long time. I think
2 you certainly represented the dealers and the motorcycle
3 industry extremely well, very, very competently, here today.
4 We thank you very much, sir.
5 MR. PERKINS: Thank you for the opportunity.
6 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We would like to take a ten
7 minute recess at this point, and on our return, hear from
8 Mrs. Carol Plant, representing BMW Owners of America.
9 (Whereupon, the proceedings were
10 in recess from 10:40 o'clock, a.m.,
11 until 10:52 o'clock, a.m.)
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We will reconvene at this point,
13 please, to hear from Carol Plant, representing the BMW
14 Owners of America.
15 CAROL PLANT
16 Yes. Mr. Perkins — Thomas, pardon me, and the
17 panel, BMW Motorcycle Owners of America is a non-profit
18 organization, a private club. We do not manufacture
19 motorcycles, we don't repair them, we are not dealers, we
20 don't furnish parts.
21 I was called Thursday evening by one of our
22 members who is on the board of directors and is an attorney
23 in Washington, O.C, and asked me to come down and act as
24 an emissary to read this, which was air mailed to me, so if
25 you will bear with me, I will read four and a half pages.
26 These are comments regarding the proposed motorcycle
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1 noise emission regulations announced by the Environmental
2 Protection Agency in the Wednesday, March 15, 1978, Federal
3 Register.
4 The man who wrote this is named Paul Lewis. He is
5 a member of the Board of Directors, acting in the capacity of
6 Secretary of BMW Motorcycle Owners of America Incorporated.
7 Mr. Lewis drew these up in a rather pressing manner, and I
8 have a feeling that some of it is rather axiomatic.
9 The introduction:
10 "BMW Motorcycle Owners of America
11 Incorporated" -- hereafter, I will simply
12 refer to it as BMWMOA -- "is a non-profit
13 organization incorporated in the State
14 of California. It's active members
15 currently number approximately eight
16 thousand.
17 "BMWOA seems to promote the knowledge,
18 iformation, safety and riding skill, of all
19 BMW motorcycle owners on the North American
20 continent.
21 "It also seeks to promote the awareness
22 and relationship of BMW motorcyclists, and
23 their motorcycle mode of transportation and
24 operation, to other citizens of motors, and
25 to improve and promote the relationship and
26 image of motorcyclists to the public in
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1 general.
2 "BMWMDA believes, through its activities,
3 it has acquired the reputation for being a
4 responsible organization. We agree that
5 elimination through reasonable measures of
6 unnecessary noise from our environment will
7 benefit the health and welfare of motorcyclists,
8 as well as the public at large.
9 "The Noise Control Act and the proposed
10 standards: In Section 4901b of the Noise
11 Control Act, the Congress states the underlying
12 policy is, 'To promote an environment for
13 all Americans free from noise that jeopardizes
14 their health and welfare.'
15 "Therefore, it appears the Environmental
16 Protection Agency -- EPA -- authority to
17 establish noise standards is contingent on
18 a clear showing the noise which is to be
19 regulated actually jeopardizes health and
20 welfare.
21 "BMWMQA sees nothing in the Noise
22 Control Act which permits EPA to establish
23 noise standards which are arbitrary or
24 unreasonable.
25 "EPA, in developing its proposed
26 standards of 83 decibels (A) in 1980, 80
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1 decibels (A) in 1982, and 78 decibels (A)
2 in 1985, apparently has determined that all
3 ' street motorcycles, both modified and unmodified,
4 present such a serious noise problem as to
5 jeopardize health and welfare, and has
S determined that the proposed standards are
7 reasonable.
8 "BMWOA, for the reascns expressed
9 below, strongly disagrees with the methods
10 used by EPA to determine the nature and
11 scope of motorcycle noise emissions, with
12 EPA's conclusions regarding the impact of
13 motorcycle noise emissions, and with the
14 severity of the proposed standards, the
15 deficiency in noise source identification.
16 "EPA has defined motorcycle noise in
17 terms of its 'contribution to total traffic
18 noise,1 and in terms of the 'single event
19 noise impact.'
20 "In addition, EPA compared the noise
21 emissions from unmodified street motorcycles
22 with those of street motorcycles having
23 modified or after-market exhaust systems.
24 "The EPA study indicates motorcycles
25 comprise the minimum portion of the total
26 highway traffic, one and seven-tenths per
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1 cent in the typical urban traffic stream,
2 according to the EPA.
3 "The EPA study also indicates noise
4 emissions of unmodified motorcycles are
5 masked by the sound of other vehicles in
6 the traffic stream.
7 "In effect, the EPA study shows the
8 noise emissions of unmodified motorcycles
9 do not contribute in any significant way
10 to total traffic noise.
11 "Despite this, EPA's position is that
12 motorcyclists present a potential noise
13 problem in that they will stand out as the
14 single loudest noise source on the road in
15 1985 by assuming the major noise contributors,
16 such as heavy trucks, will be regulated to
17 much lower noise levels in 1985.
18 "In view of the fact that this assumption
19 is far from being a certainty in view of the
20 motorcycle industry's history of self-policing
21 action in the noise area, and in view of the
22 fact that unmodified motorcycles will not
23 constitute a noise problem in the absolute
24 sence in 1985 even if they are the loudest
25 vehicle on the road, EPA's approach appears
26 to be little more than a highly speculative
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1 attempt to create a problem where none, in
2 fact, exists.
3 "In view of the relatively small
4 numbers of motorcycles involved, EPA could
5 better use the taxpayers' money, and more
6 fairly treat the motorcyclists, where it
7 could devote its efforts to addressing the
8 noise impacts of the present major contributors
9 "Upon resolution of those impacts, it
10 might then be appropriate to address the
11 motorcycle contribution if it presents an
12 actual problem at that time.
13 "EPA's conclusions regarding the
14 'single event noise impact1 are invalid.
15 and have no value, in that EPA attempts to
16 measure impacts in terms of a subjective
17 'annoyance* factor, which more likely
18 measures the listeners' anti-motorcycle
19 prejudice than the motorcycle noise output.
20 "Motorcyclists are the unwarranted
21 subject of prejudice in America. EPA does
22 not appear to have attempted to determine
23 which portion of the annoyance stems from
24 this prejudice, and which portion stems
25 from unreasonably loud noise emissions.
26 "To reason the nation's health and
(311) 437.U77 MACAU LEY & MANNING. «ANTA ANA. CALir. (714) JJI-V400
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1 welfare legitimately might be improved, may
2 be improved by decreasing noise through
3 removing the innocent object of prejudice,
4 hardly appears to be a responsible approach.
5 "The EPA test indicates that the BMW
6 models currently emit sound levels in the
7 82 decibel (A) range as measured by the
8 J-331a standard.
9 "Over the past several years, the
10 BMWMOA has sponsored a national rally at
11 various parts of the country. These events
12 have developed into the largest single mark
13 events in the world, are held in or near
14 small towns, and draw large numbers of BMW
15 motorcycles.
16 "The 1977 national rally, held on
17 the Flying W Ranch, near Colorado Springs,
18 Colorado."
19 Which, incidentally, I was Grand Marshal, Chairman,
20 "We drew seventeen hundred and twenty-seven
21 BMW motorcycles. Events of this magnitude
22 greatly increase the total noise impact
23 contribution in the area during the duration
24 of three or four days, both in terms of
25 total traffic noise and single even noise
26 impact.
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1 "In view of the fact that a certain
2 number of the rally participants ride
3 motorcycles with exhaust systems which have
4 begun to deteriorate, or are after-market
5 systems, the rally's average motorcycle
6 noise level must be somewhere in excess of
7 82 decibel (A), yet none of these rallies
8 have prompted complaints about motorcycle
9 noise.
10 "The upcoming BMWMOA Sixth Annual
11 Rally, to be held in Rutland, Vermont,
12 this summer, is a subject of some interest
13 in the local press. The initial report of
14 the Rutland Herald was headlined, 'Vroomh.
15 Rutland will gain a new notoriety when it
16 hosts the largest motorcycle rally ever.1
17 "Subsequently, after it was learned
18 that this group spent between to hundred
19 and fifty thousand and three hundred thousand
20 dollars in Colorado Springs last year, the
21 following statement appeared in Rutland
22 Rotary Club's Newsletters, March 28, 1978:
23 'In any event, we are all convinced that
24 with vehicles ranging in value up to six
25 thousand dollars, with engines as quiet as
26 a Lincoln Continental, and an average age
(JU) 4)7-1327 MACAULEY ft MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALIF. (714> 551-9400
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1 of participant around forty-five, our
2 municipality will not be threatened.'
3 "Apparently, the annoyance factor
4 pertaining to perceived noise levels of
5 motorcycles can be inversely proportional
6 to the amount of money that the motorcycles
7 leave with the local populace.
8 "BMWMOA agrees with the EPA assessment
9 of the" noise impact of motorcycles which
10 are equipped with loud modified, or after-
11 market exhaust systems. While there may
12 be reasons to use such systems, and while
13 BMWMOA can understand the owners' desires
14 to use such systems on occasion, the
15 . BMWMOA, as an organization which seeks to
16 promote and improve the image of motorcycling
17 in the eyes of the general public, can not
18 condone the use of exhaust systems which
19 ' are noticeably and unreasonably louder than
20 the unmodified stock systems.
21 "BMWMOA agrees with EPA that motorcycles
22 with modified exhaust systems contribute to
23 the overall noise impact for motorcycles
24 in much larger proportion that their actual
25 numbers would indicate.
26 "BMWMOA concludes that, after studying
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1 the EPA materials pertaining to the proposed
2 standards, that the motorcycle noise problem
3 stems largely, if not in whole, from the use
4 of after-market modified exhaust systems
5 which greatly exceed the 83 decibel (A) level.
6 It is these systems to which the EPA and
7 the State should devote their time and
8 attention, rather than to the unmodified
9 motorcycles.
10 "EPA's subjective noise rating charts
11 show, in Figures 5-11, and 5-12, on Pages
12 5-33, and 5-34, of the Background Documents,
13 support this conclusion. They show the 83
14 decibel levels are clearly acceptable.
15 "The impact of proposals:
16 a. 78 decibel (A) standard:
17 This standard, whether viewed from the
18 prospective of best available technology
19 presently available, or the prospective of
20 that which may be available in 1985, is
21 arbitrary, capricious, and beyond the
22 scope of authority delegated to EPA under
23 the Noise Control Act.
24 Motorcycles are not automobiles.
25 To function properly, mass weights and
26 special relationships of the motorcycle
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1 components must be perfectly balanced.
2 These relationships are critical, and are
3 measured in terms of close tolerances.
4 A five pound or a one inch modification
5 has the potential to adversely affect the
6 motorcycle's road worthiness to a far
7 greater extent than would be a similar
8 ch?.nge in an automobile.
9 ."It is not clear that the EPA fully
10 appreciates or understands these facts.
11 The prevalent engine used to power motorcycles,
12 both now and historically, is an air cooled
13 engine. The reasons for this are clear to
14 anyone who has ridden motorcycles. These
15 engines best meet the functional needs of
16 the motorcycle, and while a liquid cooled
17 engine may be superior to an air cooled
18 engine in terms of mechanical noise, it is
19 . inferior in other more important respects.
20 It adds weight, it adds bulk, it adds
21 components, it presents added complexities,
22 and to require that all motorcycles must be
23 liquid cooled, EPA is not merely decreasing
24 the noise level as authorized under the
25 Noise Control Act, it is changing the total
26 nature of the motorcycle.
HID 437 U27 MACAULEY ft MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALIF. (714) SSI V400
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1 "It is BMWOA's contention that the
2 Noise Control Act does not authorize EPA
3 to outlaw air cooled engines. When taking
4 all factors into consideration, the air
5 cooled engine represents the best available
6 technology in the motorcycle context.
7 "If EPA desires to establis a 78
8 decibel (A) standard for liquid cooled
9 engines, that may be its prerogative.
10 However, EPA may not require that air cooled
H meet that standard, nor that all motorcycles
12 be liquid cooled.
i
13 "The 76 decibel standard would result
14 in providing the Japanese motorcycle industry
15 with a monopoly in the American market.
16 "The Noise Control Act, in BMWMOA's
17 opinion does not authorize EPA to effect a
18 restraint of trade in this manner.
19 "The BMWMOA supports the motorcycle
20 consumers in a freedom of choice, and in the
21 future, he should have the opportunity to
22 purchase motorcycles manufactured in Japan.
23 He should also have the opportunity to
24 purchase motorcycles manufactured in the
25 United States, Canada, England, Germany.
26 Italy, and various other countries which
(211) 437O127 MACAULEY & MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALir. (7)4) SS«-«400
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1 have a motorcycle industry. There is room
2 for diversity in this country.
3 "EPA appears to imply that performance
4 is less of a consideration in best available
5 technology for street motorcycles than it is
6 for off-road motorcycles.
7 "BMWMOA takes strong exception to this
8 implication. The essence of the entire history
9 of all forms of motorcycle is sport and
10 competition. Ours is a sporting form of
11 transportation. To ignore this fact, as EPA
12 appears to be doing, is to evidence such a
13 degree of ignorance, and lack of appreciation
14 for, and an awareness of the regulated object,
15 that it calls into question EPA's competence
16 to regulate.
17 "From the safety aspects alone, it can
18 be argued that performance is of greater
19 importance to the street motorcycle than it
20 is to the off-road motorcycle. Unlike the
21 off-road motorcyclist, the street
22 motorcyclist must compete with vast numbers
23 of automobile operators, anyone of whom has
24 the power to kill or seriously injure. The
25 street motorcyclist has no sheet of steel
26 surrounding him. He does not depend on
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1 seat belts to protect him. His ability to
2 avoid death and injury depends on two things,
3 his riding ability, and his machine's performance,
4 agility and reliability, and it is imperative
5 that as an aircraft be airworthy, so it is
6 imperative that a motorcycle be roadworthy.
7 "The motorcycle operator must be able
8 to avoid wayward automobiles to the extent
9 that the proposed standards adversely affect
10 the basic functions of motorcycles by
11 increasing bulk and weight, by decreasing
12 engine breathing efficiency, and imposing
13 horsepower penalties by diminishing the
14 motorcycle's agility through a raised center
15 of gravity, they adversely affect the rider's
16 safety.
17 "From the viewpoint of safety, a
18 motorcycle must run well and reliably. To
19 insure that it does, it must be properly
20 maintained. This routine maintenance is
21 best performed by the rider. He saves
22 money. He learns to watch potential trouble
23 spots. And he will do a more conscientious
24 job than a disinterested mechanic. The
25 BMWMOA encourages its members to master
26 the routine maintenance to the extent the
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1 proposed standards discourage owner
2 maintenance by making such maitenance more
3 difficult, more time consuming.
4 "It also adversely affects the
5 owner's safety by requiring more complicated
6 water cooled, multi-cylinder engines. The
7 proposed standards discourage owner maintenance
8 "The above considerations establish
9 clearly that the 78 decibel standard is not,
10 and will not, in the foreseeable future, be
11 feasible or acceptable.
12 "b. The 80 decibel standard: The
13 80 decibel standard appears to differ from
14 the 78 decibel standard only in the extent
15 of its adverse impacts on motorcycling.
16 "On Page -67 of the Background Document
17 it is noted that some manufacturers question
18 that an 80 decibel standard can be met
19 without major redesign on some models.
20 "For the reasons stated above, the
21 BMWMOA opposes a standard which requires a
22 major redesign, as defined by EPA, in view
23 of the fact that 83 decibel (A) an
24 acceptable level of noise, and in view of
25 the limited edition increment in the
26 reduction of noise impact, the 80 decibel
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provides over the 83 decibel, which is
fifty-two per cent as compared to forty-
three per cent.
"This standard does not appear
reasonable, given the impacts on motorcycle
performance and safety, and the added cost
to the consumer.
"Conclusions: EPA has not established
that unmodified motorcycles currently present
any significant noise problem, or that they
will in the future.
"EPA has reasonable basis for identifying
modified and certain after-market exhaust
systems as constituting a noise impact
problem which may be regulated under the
Noise Control Act.
"Given the motorcycle industry's
history of self-policing, and given the
existence of local noise and nuisance
ordinance which, if properly enforced,
could adequately address the noise impact
of loud modified and after-market exhaust
systems, EPA has not convinced the BMWMOA
there is any real need for the establishment
of any motorcycle noise standards.
"The BMWKOA could accept an 83 decibel
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1 standard which would apply to all motorcycles,
2 . and after-market exhaust systems, subject to
3 the following conditions: This proposed
4 standard will be economically feasible so
5 that foreign manufacturers presently exporting
6 motorcycles to the United States can continue
7 exporting motorcycles to the United States,
8 and the domestic motorcycle manufacturer can
9 continue producing its product."
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you, Mrs. Plant. You
12 were not here on Saturday, I take it, or on Friday?
13 MRS. PLANT: No. I wish I had been.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I just want you to be reassured
15 that we're still batting a thousand in here because no one
16 has told us we're doing the right thing yet, so you're
17 still in the game. (Laughter)
18 MRS. PLANT: If you look at the statements in
19 there, it may be a'little embarrassing.
20 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We will not ask you any question
21 dealing with the substance of the testimony that you have
22 presented since you have already indicated that you were
23 asked to present it by a third party. That's fine.
24 MRS. PLANT: As an emissary.
25 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I would ask, specifically,
26 however, that BMWMOA urge BMW to testify before the U.S. EPA
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1 as a manufacturer of products distributed in the United
2 States. As of this date, they have not indicated that they
3 are going to appear before this hearing panel subsequently
4 that are going to be held in Tampa or in Washington, D.C.
5 We believe, clearly, they should be present to
6 present the technical views of what their manufacturing
7 competence really is to meet the standards, and what their
8 potential costs would be.
9 MRS. PLANT: I thoroughly agree with that, and I
10 will be making a phone call. Would you like me to get in
il touch with BMW North America and urge them to appear?
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Obviously, that's your decision
13 how best you want to do it, but obviously, since the owners
14 take a very strong position on here and have seen fit to
15 speak to the competence of the manufacturer as to what he
16 can or can not do, we think that it would be desirable to
17 have the manufacturer standing in front of us also.
18 MRS. PLANT: Then I will need the information as
19 to — well, no, I can take care of that. Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you.
21 Are you aware of the California laws on ...
22 MRS. PLANT: Oh, yes.
23 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: . . .motorcycle noise . . .
24 MRS. PLANT: I was born and raised in California.
25 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: . . . just when . . .
26 MRS. PLANT: I remember Hendersons, too. (Laughter)
(713) 41M127 MACAULEY & MANNING. »ANTA ANA. CALir (714) SSI 9400
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1 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Did you have one?
2 MRS. PLANT: I wish I did.
3 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: You're aware, then, that
4 California regulations — California statutes -- as currently
5 written will impose not only noise levels that EPA has
6 proposed to issue, but go far beyond those in stringence?
7 MRS. PLANT: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Are you aware that at such time
9 as EPA's regulations become effective, whatever they may
10 be, they preempt the State of California statutes?
11 MRS. PLANT: That I hadn't determined.
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I think you might find from a
13 manufacturer's perspective that they would be much more
14 amenable to dealing with the Federal government on this
15 issue, perhaps, than they are with the State of California,
16 and Oregon, and Florida, and, and, and; and . . .
17 MRS. PLANT: It should be uniform.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: . . . that's essentially the
19 position that has been taken.
20 If EPA issues regulations — and this is a semi-
21 lecture, if you will -- if EPA issues regulations, they can
22 only do so under the statute by first identifying that there
23 is, in fact, a problem — that you have so well addressed,
24 that there appears to be some question as to whether there
25 is or not; secondly, determine what technology is available
26 to meet that problem, and what the costsof compliance are.
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1 In other words, EPA can not simply issue a
2 preemptive regulation to protect the manufacturers of these
3 products without requiring that something be done, because
4 there has to be a problem, so we could not, as it were,
5 regulate after-market systems specifically in this regard,
$ modifications, for example. Our authority deals with the
7 newly manufactured products only, and so we are limited
8 there within the statute by what we can do, so we can't be
9 the environmental preemptive agency unless there are clearly
10 benefits to be achieved by issuing such Federal standard
11 that sets that national uniform level.
12 The manufacturers are clearly beset by a serious
13 problem, divergent state and local standards on their
14 products.
15 The Common Market likewise is — EEC — is probabl
16 going to be causing as much difficulties for BMW as the
17 United States is making.
18 Well, that's my editorial addition. Thank you.
19 Let me ask my colleagues if they have any questions.
20 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mrs. Plant, I would like to ask
21 you just a few questions, not as a representative of BMW,
22 in a way, but as a citizen and a biker, a motorcycle rider.
23 First, have you ever modified a bike?
24 MRS. PLANT: No, I don't approve.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: You know lots of people who are
26 cyclists. Do you know people who do modify bikes, and
(213) 4J7.1JJ7 MACAULEY & MANNING. «ANTA ANA. CALtr. (714) 5SI-t400
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1 would you . . .
2 MRS. PLANT: There is a fourteen year old right
3 on the block that I'm going to cream. (Laughter)
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Another good thought, but why
5 do — fourteen year olds ride bikes?
6 MRS. PLANT: It's not even street legal. We've
7 had the police on him twice, but his parents won't do
8 anything. They think he's funny. He does wheelers down a
9 twenty-five mile per hour limit residential street. This
10 is the problem. This is what's caused all this.
11 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Why do people modify their bikes?
12 Do you know people other than fourteen year olds?
13 MRS. PLANT: For kicks. You were fourteen years
14 old once. (Laughter)
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I could never afford a motorcycle
16 when I was fourteen.
17 MRS. PLANT: It didn't have to be a motorcycle.
18 Get away with something. All kids do it, one way or another,
19 not just motorcycles, it could be one way or another. You
20 know, they're fourteen years old. They can't help it.
21 MR. KOZLOWSKI: So you think the problem is
22 really then of young people modifying bikes, not of ...
23 MRS. PLANT: Yeah, young, or perennial sophmores.
24 (Laughter)
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Now, I've got to stop. I don't
26 know what you're saying. (Continued laughter)
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1 MRS. PLANT: It's a certain type of person, you
2 know, just like this (indicating). They want to be
3 different. They want to get attention. It's an attention
4 getter, that's what it is.
5 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That really means, though, if you
6 look at it as a hard fact, that that's almost an impossible
7 problem to solve.
8 MRS. PLANT: It's on a local basis; strictly a
9 local basis.
JO MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. PETROLATI: Do you have any idea how many
12 members of the MOA would actually modify their motorcycles?
13 MRS. PLANT: Very few. They're not that kind of
14 people.
15 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. You seem to relate the
16 problem of modification strictly to the younger people in
17 general. Do you think there would be a problem with the
18 younger people who generally ride the mopeds in great
19 numbers doing the same things as well as the motorcycle
20 operators?
21 I guess I should use the terms. Supposedly, we
22 have identified the mopeds as motorcycles, but in your mind,
23 do you see the moped being as modified?
24 MRS. PLANT: If it makes noise, and you do
25 something that the establishment doesn't approve of, yes.
26 (Laughter)
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1 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, that's fine. Thank you
2 very much.
3 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Let the record show that the
4 counsel has identified himself as a perennial sophmore.
5 (Laughter)
6 MR. NAVEEN: That's what I have.
7 MR. EDWARDS: Mrs. Plant, I have a single question
8 and perhaps you can't answer it, but, do you, as someone who
9 is familiar with :BMW motorcycles have a feeling that over the
10 last several years that they are perhaps louder than they
11 were a decade ago?
12 MRS. PLANT: Are you speaking of BMW motorcycles?
13 MR. EDWARDS: Yes, BMW motorcycles specifically.
14 MRS. PLANT: Let's say you go ten years, it
15 applies to. It's a different sound. It's on a — what the
16 decibel — no -- in tone, then it's a little higher, the
17 exhaust; it's on a higher level. But I wouldn't say it's
18 any noisier. I liked the sound of the old Slash too, you
19 know. It was low. But as far as being louder, I don't
20 believe so.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Okay, fine. Thank you very much.
22 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mrs. Plant, I thin you have
23 very ably, indeed, represented your organization before us.
24 Thank you for your time in coming here and giving us your
25 views.
26 MRS. PLANT: Thank you.
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CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We will consider them much
more closely before the final rules are issued. Thank you.
Our schedule shows Mr. John Walsh is next, from
Suzuki. However, we have a number of questions which we
are going to want to address, with Suzuki.
We have a Mr. Frank Puccilli who has asked to
speak as a private citizen, before us. Therefore, I would
like to take Mr. Puccilli out of the schedule that we have
and ask him if he would care to speak at this time.
FRANK PUCCILLI
I could not attend the previous meetings, which
were on Friday and Saturday, because -- well, anyway — and
so I am here today, and I just represent myself, I don't —
there is no organization or persons that I speak for, and I
really came here to listen, and then I was asked, you know,
to give, you know, a few words. I'm not prepared to speak,
and it wouldn't do any good if I were prepared because I'm
sure it wouldn't be, you know, any more — whatever, and
I want to, before I begin, I would like to ask your indulgence
for whatever I ramble, or if I get a little emotional, or
whatever.
I'm Frank Puccilli, and I live in Irvine here,
and I remember, a fellow was talking about Harley-Davidson,
it brought some things to my mind.
In 1936, my brother, who was a motorcycle racer
and a motorcycle mechanic in San Francisco, where I was born
(311) 417.1327 MACAU LEY ft MANNING. CANTA ANA. CALIF. (714) S»-«400
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1 and have lived all my life in California, in 1936 he drove
2 the ambassador from China in a parade in San Francisco in
3 a white motorcycle with a side car, a Harley-Davidson, and
4 he worked for a fellow Hap Jones who was a great motorcycle
5 racer and dealer for Harley-Davidson in San Francisco.
6 And I bought my first motorcycle in 1947 right
7 after I got out of the army in the Second World War, and I
8 do landscape work, and I work with rotor tillers and I
9 work with trenchers, and I work with part of the time
10 maybe two or three days —
11 I do that kind of work. As probably most of
12 you know, it's noisy, and I also do planting, and I draw
13 sketches. Maybe I'll do that for three or four days which
14 is quiet.
15 And the reason that I mention this is because
16 whether I do noisy work or whether I do quiet work noisy
17 motorcycles disturb me, you know. Whether I have a lot of
18 days of noisy work and I hear these motorcycles I think,
19 well, just because I hear a lot of noise, you know, this
20 is bothering me, and then I do a lot of quiet work and I
21 hear this and it disturbs me just as much.
22 Maybe the word I'm look for is rep-re-hens-ible?
23 Is that right? Is that the word that I want? Reprehensible
24 to me motorcycle noise.
25 And I would just like to interject here that I
26 was -- when we were in Italy and we were trying to look at
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1 the Forum over there and the Parthenon and whatever, all
2 these beautiful things, and these motorcycles, so many and
3 so noisy, just an impossible situation, and it strikes a
4 lot of fear into me that we're going to get into this kind
5 of condition over here.
5 And I talked to a woman in the street about that,
7 and I said, "What about this terrible noise you have here
g going on all the time?" and she said, "Well we're not
g content with it. We're going to try to do something about
}Q it." But it just seemed like it was almost too late.
jj Okay, one of the things I want to mention that
12 can apply directly to me, is I'm stopped at a stop sign and
13 some guy comes up to me with a motorcycle and I got to rush
14 around and roll up the windows and even with the windows
15 rolled up there's nothing I can do about that terrible
lg noise that assails me.
17 Standing on the street corner, or the place where
13 I live, and trying to talk to a neighbor, or trying to work
19 in my garden, and some yard work a little bit, and the
20 motorcycles come by, and it interrupts conversation, and it
21 causes a great deal of stress in me while that noise is
22 going on, and it continues after it's gone. One guy in a
23 motorcycle is disturbing sixty-three people, right where I
24 live.
25 In the morning when I'm trying to sleep, or I'm
26 inside the house trying to read, or I'm eating my dinner,
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1 you know, after a day of stress and anxiety, my house is
2 my sanctuary, hopefully, and hear this noise intruding on
3 me.
4 Well, even going camping, try to get through to
5 nature, and trees, greenery, nature, I must have quiet, a
6 little peace and quiet, and it is impossible because people
7 have to have these motorcycles making all this noise.
8 And I just want to add a little bit in here
9 about — and though I don't have any facts and figures about
10 decibels, or where or how a motorcycle operates, I have
Jl ridden them all of my life, and I know about the background
12 of motorcycles, and everything — I don't know the
13 technicalities of this air cooled versus water cooled --
14 but I do know and I have driven Volkswagens which are air
15 cooled engines — and I do know that Volkswagens are not
16 hacking it any more over emissions so they are not making
17 air cooled engines any more.
18 So I don't know what the problem is going to be
19 with motorcycles but, you know, we have to take that into
20 consideration.
21 Okay. In conclusion what I'm going to say then
22 is that someone before me and I think it was the previous
23 speaker of Harley-Davidson motorcycles said, is about
24 education, which I think is a marvelous thing; eduction,
25 of course, for those that will be educated, regulation for
26 those who won't educate.
(211) 437-1)27 MACAULEY ft MANNING. SANTA ANA. CALIF. (714) 551 »400
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1 Now, I believe that the Environmental Protection
2 Agency, an outstanding organization, it's doing great things,
3 it's what we need, and without it we'd be in a terrible set
4 of circumstances today, and we will be in a terrible set of
5 circumstances if we don't get the Environmental Protection
g Agency to work on these matters on a national level.
7 I believe that the little I know about this, if
g I may make this statement, the Environmental Protection
9 Agency has to begin with the manufacturer, to work with
JQ motorcycles and to regulate motorcycles, and also the state
jj must do this, with the EPA with the new motorcycles and
12 the state with the new and the used motorcycles, and we
13 were talking a moment earlier about these young persons
14 who get these motorcycles and modify them, I've done that
15 myself, put a straight pipe on a motorcycle, but I will
15 say "when!" I want to use the word when -- when the
17 Environmental Protection Agency regulates this, and the
18 state regulates this, and the child sees that his father's
19 motorcycle is regulated, then there's going to be a lot more
20 control, and the education is going to work far better.
21 Okay. In conclusion I want to say I'm not
22 talking about motorcycles today, and I'm not talking about
23 motorcycles, I'm talking about human welfare, I'm talking
24 about making the environment or the place, you know, for
25 ourselves and for our children something that we can live
26 with, and noise is something, in my opinion, that makes the
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1 environment: and causes additional stress and anxiety that I
2 don't need, and I want to have a situation that I lived in
3 that is going to enhance my quality of life.
4 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you, Mr. Puccilli. A
5 very helpful statement, indeed.
6 Mr. Kozlowski, do you have a question to pose?
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: No. I would just like to say
8 that we do have the facts and figures how noise affects the
9 quality of like, but the facts and figures just don't
10 communicate the same type of thing that you, as a citizen,
11 did very eloquently.
12 I would like to thank you for coining down here
13 and speaking to us.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We have got one more question
15 here, I think, if you will bear with us for just a second.
16 There are a couple of people that want to ask you questions,
17 if you don't mind. Thank you.
18 MR. PETROLATI: Mr. Puccilli — I hope I'm
19 pronouncing that right. I have a little problem with
20 Italian names (Laughter) — I guess the only question I
21 have for you: The motorcycles that you've been bothered
22 by, have you been able to notice whether they've been
23 modified motorcycles or have they been original equipment
24 motorcycles?
25 MR. PUCCILLI: That's difficult to say, you know,
26 because a motorcycle goes by, and I'm not able to get close
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1 to it to identify it. It seems to me prdeominantly, I
2 would say, it's motorcycles that have been modified, but
3 I think I have, you know, just off the top of my head, I
4 have seen some motorcycles, I have talked to persons about
5 it, I have talked to young persons about these things,
6 "Oh, no, we haven't done anything to is," and of course I
7 can tell whether it's modified or not, in my opinion, but
8 then sometimes, I'm sure I'm not — I can't ascertain for
9 absolutely certain.
10 MR. PETROLATI: Thank you very much, Mr. Puccilli,
11 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Puccilli, I think you may have
12 disturbed our perfect batting average that Mr. Thomas
13 referred to earlier by telling us that perhaps we're doing
14 the right thing.
15 Just following up on Vic's question: Are there
16 motorcycles on the streets today that you have noticed
17 visually that you thought had an acceptable sound level?
18 MR. PUCCILLI: Unquestionably. Yes, I think
19 that I have heard some motorcycles.
20 MR. EDWARDS: So, some of the motorcycles on the
21 road today are okay. It's just the louder ones where they
22 happen to be louder by manufacture or by modification?
23 MR. PUCCILLI: I've seen what I believe to be --
24 again, I haven't stopped and actually really looked at them
25 closely, The ones that I have dealt with are acceptable.
26 And they looked brand new, and these were quiet.
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1 MR. EDWARDS: Thank ycu very much.
2 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you, sir.
3 I would like to hear now from John Walsh,
4 representing U. S. Suzuki Motors Corporation.
5 JOHN WALSH
g (Accompanied on the dais by Mr.
7 N. Nakamura and Mr. K. Hirano.)
8 Thank you, Mr. Thomas. We weren't trying to
9 rival EPA in preparing a big document (referring to
1Q written submission). The written portion of our statement
11 is just the beginning, and a lot of the material is just
12 attachments.
13 Good morning. My name is John Walsh. I'm
14 Senior Staff Engineer in the Safety and Legislation Departmenl
15 at U. S. Suzuki. With me today is Mr. N. Nakamura, to my
15 left, also Senior Staff Engineer in the Safety and
17 Legislation Department. And to Mr. Nakamura's left is Mr.
18 K. Hirano, until recently Manager of the Technical Division
19 at Suzuki Motor Company.
20 Suzuki Motor Company, Limited, would like to take
21 this opportunity to comment on the motorcycle noise
22 regulations proposed by the Engironmental Protection Agency.
23 First, Suzuki would like to express its appreciation
24 to the EPA for working very hard to understand the motorcycle
25 noise problem. Suzuki especially appreciates the cooperative
26 attitude EPA has_shpwn in developing its proposal. Suzuki
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1 shares the goal of EPA Co reduce the impact of motorcycle
2 noise on the public, and to reduce the public annoyance
3 caused by motorcycle noise.
4 Turning to the policy of the United States and
5 EPA, Section 2(b) of the Noise Control Act of 1972, as
6 quoted by Mrs. Plant, states that, "It is the policy of the
7 United States to promote an environment for all Americans
8 free from noise that jeopardizes their health and welfare."
9 Suzuki recognizes its responsibility in
10 furthering this policy, and is willing to accept its fair
11 share of the burden to improve the American environment.
12 The proposed regulation, however, would require
13 motorcycle manufacturers to carry far more than their fair
14 share of the noise control burden. The regulation must be
15 amended to treat motorcycles fairly.
16 EPA's national noise stragety document states:
17 "The primary goal of the Agency in the noise pollution area
18 is to promote an environment for all Americans free from
19 noise that jeopardizes their health or welfare. In order
20 to reach this legislatively mandated objectives, five
21 specific operational goals have been formulated. These are:
22 "A. To take all practical steps
23 to eliminate hearing loss resulting from
24 noise exposure;
25 "B. To reduce environmental noise
26 exposure to an Ldn value of no more than
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1 75 dB immediately;
2 "C. To reduce noise exposure levels
3 to Ldn 65 dB by vigorous reulatory and
4 planning actions;
5 "D. To strive for an eventual
g reduction of noise levels to an Ldn of 55
7 dB; and,
g "E. To encourange and assist other
g Federal, State and local agencies, in the
10 adoption and implementation of long range
11 noise control policies."
12 Further, Addendum "a" to the strategy document
13 states that: "EPA will give its greatest emphasis to the
14 abatement of noise sources which result in the most serious
15 impact on the public."
lg Suzuki agrees with these goals. The proposed
17 regulation, however, must be substantially revised to bring
18 it within these Agency goals.
19 • EPA states, in the preamble of the proposal,
20 that: "The standards in this proposed rulemaking are
21 consistent with the Agency's overall objective to quiet all
22 major noise producing products in order to ultimately
23 reduce the total noise emitted from all transportation
24 vehicles."
25 Again, unless substantial changes are made in the
26 proposal in recognition of the unique realities of motorcycle
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1 noise control, Suzuki feels that EPA's approach to
2 motorcycle noise control is grossly inconsistent with the
3 Agency's overall objective.
4 Finally, Executive Order 12044 states the
5 following: "Regulations shall be as simple and clear as
6 possible. They shall achieve legislative goals effectively
7 and efficiently. They shall not impose unnecessary
g burdens on the economy, on individuals, on public or
9 private organizations, or on state and local governments."
10 Suzuki totally agrees with this policy. The
11 proposed regulation, however, must be significantly
12 redrafted to comply with this Executive Order.
13 Although control of motorcycle noise is a
14 complex area, the proposed regulation is so unnecessarily
15 complex that it is impossible to understand in some
16 sections, and requires much unnecessary testing, reporting
17 and record keeping, in other sections.
18 Turning to Suzuki Motor Company policy in the
19 motorcycle noise control area, Suzuki Motor Company fully
20 supports the goals of reducing environmental noise. All
21 producers and users of noise producing products must do
22 their share to reduce environmental noise. In this way,
23 Suzuki is willing to support reasonable, simple and clear
24 regulations, which reduce motorcycle noise.
25 For the street motorcycle, Suzuki fully supports
26 an 83 dB regulation for street motorcycles and replacement
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1 exhaust systems. At such a level, motorcycles will be nearly
2 as quiet as automobiles in normal operation, and the cost
3 burden borne by manufacturers and consumers will be comparabl
4 to the burdens imposed by the EPA medium and heavy truck
5 regulation.
5 Through independent research, Suzuki has confirmed
7 that there is considerable public concern about motorcycle
g noise. The section of our contract report which deals with
9 this subject-is attached to our written comments.
10 Approximately two-thirds of the people interviewed
11 as part of this research indicated that, although they were
12 very concerned about motorcycle noise, they were annoyed by
13 very few, or a small number of especially noisy motorcycles.
14 EPA must address this minority of noisy motorcycle
15 before public annoyance is reduced, and before benefits of
lg further reductions in new motorcycle noise can be realized.
17 Using EPA's own data, seventy-five to ninety per
18 cent of the projected benefits of a 78 dB regulation can
19 b'e attained at the 83 dB level at only fourteen per cent of
20 the total cost of a 78 dB standard.
21 Although regulation of motorcycles at the 83 dB
22 level is less cost effective than the 80 dB truck regulation
23 adopted by EPA, Suzuki supports 83 dB as an initial regulator;
24 level. The analysis which supports these comments is also
25 attached to our written comments.
26 Regulation of motorcycles to the 80 dB level,
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however, would only provide seven to twenty per cent
additional benefit, but would cost over three hundred per
cent more. Such a strategy would not only be much less
cost effective than the 83 dB level, but would burden
motorcycle manufacturers five times more heavily than truck
manufacturers. This could not be tolerated.
Of course, analysis of the 78 dB level shows
8 that it is completely unreasonable.
9 Cost effectiveness and fairness are not the only
10 arguments which show that the 83 dB level is the only
11 standard which should be considered. The realities of the
12 motorcycle noise situation demand this.
13 At any regulatory level, whether 83, 80 or 78
14 dB, over eighty-five per cent of the projected benefits will
15 result from control of modified exhaust systems through the
16 replacement exhaust system regulation, and state and local
17 enforcement.
18 EPA's projections of benefits, in this area,
19 depend on two totally unproven assumptions:
20 1. That the exhaust system
21 regulation will reduce the number of
22 -modified systems by about one-half; and,
23 _ 2._ That state and local
24 _ enforcement efforts will reduce the
25 number of modified systems by an
26 ^additional percentage to reduce the
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1 total to twenty-five per cent of the
2 current modified systems.
3 In other words, unless EPA's assumptions prove to
4 be true, over eighty-five per cent of the projected benefits
5 will never be realized, despite the very high costs which
6 the manufacturers would be forced to bear, from between
7 fifty to eighty-five per cent ot the total program cost,
8 even if the program proves ineffective.
9 The experience of the State of California, long
10 a leader in noise enforcement, indicates that the benefits
11 which EPA projects to result from enforcement are quite
12 optimistic. EPA's assumption regarding projected benefits
13 from the exhaust system regulation is completely untested
14 at this time.
15 Suzuki feels that the assumption is somewhat
16 optimistic, but we have no data to support this feeling, just
17 as EPA has no data to support its assumption.
18 Because Suzuki is committed to fair and effective
19 noise control, we do not suggest that the EPA program
20 simply stop at a regulatory level of 83 dB.
21 What we propose is, as follows:
22 1. An 83 dB regulation should be
23 adopted effective the 1982 model year.
24 2. And 80 dB standard should be
25 proposed to be effective for the 1989
26 model year; and,
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1 3. The regulation should provide
2 that the 80 dB standard will become
3 effective only after a public hearing in
4 1986 and 1987, and findings by EPA that
5 the exhaust system portion of their
6 regulation was producing the benefits
7 projected, and that state and local
8 enforcement efforts were producing
9 subtantial benefits.
10 (Whereupon, Chairman Thomas
11 left the hearing panel.)
12 This approach would allow -- I hope I didn't drive
13 Mr. Thomas away. Will he be back?
14 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes, he'll be back. He had to
15 make a call to Washington. He left me in charge.
16 MR. WALSH: This approach willl allow for further
17 reductions in motorcycle noise as necessary and fair, and
18 would prevent unnecessary costs being forced on manufacturers
19 and consumers to pay for benefits that the American public
20 will never hear.
21 Since we have shown that the 80 dB standard is
22 not yet justified, and will only be justified if EPA's
23 assumptions prove true, it is clear that the 78 dB standard,
24 which would provide only four per cent additional benefit,
25 but at over twice the cost of the 80 dB standard, and over
26 twelve times the cost of the 83 dB standard, should not even
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1 be proposed as a future goal at this time.
2 The 78 d3 standard will not be justifiable until
3 all other transportation noise sources are made much quieter,
4 Suzuki suggests that the initial effective date
5 be delayed until the 1982 models. 1980 model designs will
6 be finalized by the end of this year, when we begin to
7 certify these motorcycles to EPA's exhaust emission
8 standards.
9 Because there is still some uncertainty about the
10 test procedure which we must use for noise certification,
11 Suzuki can not finalize our model design for noise control
12 until after the final rule is promulgated. We do not
13 expect final promulgation for at least another year.
14 In order to insure that we have at least one year
15 lead time to meet the first regulatory level, we suggest the
16 1982 model year as the effective date of the first standard.
17 Suzuki suggests that the Society of Automotive
18 Engineers Recommended Practice J-331a be used to test for
19 compliance. Suzuki feels that J-331a is not significantly
20 different than EPA's test procedure, and that the benefits
21 of using an accepted consensus standard outweigh any
22 deficiencies of the test.
23 - - - Furthermore, J-331a is under review by the SAE
24 at this time, and any deficiencies may be removed by the
25 revision process.
26 :--- - Regarding off-road motorcycles, Suzuki feels that
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1 the noise problem caused by off-road motorcycles is far less
2 severe than the street motorcycle problem. Suzuki's research
3 indicates that only four per cent of the people are annoyed
4 by motorcycles in the off-road environment compared to
5 sixty eight-point-six per cent in the street environment.
6 An additional fifteen-point-four per cent were
7 annoyed by motorcycle operations in vacant lots, a
8 particularly complex land use, motorcycle misuse,
9 enforcement problem.
10 Because public concern with off-road noise
11 is much lower than with street motorcycle noise, because
12 twice as many off-road motorcycles are modified as are
13 street motorcycles, and because enforcement of off-road
14 motorcycle use is a problem much larger than even street
15 motorcycle enforcement, Suzuki feels EPA is attempting to
16 accomplish much more than can realistically be accomplished
17 in the off-road noise control field.
18 Suzuki supports the goal of reducing the impact
19 of off-road motorcycle noise. As with street motorcycle
20 noise, however, almost all of the benefits to be achieved
21 by the EPA proposal depend upon the unproven assumptions
22 regarding the effectiveness of the exhaust system regulation,
23 and the effectiveness of state and local enforcement efforts.
24 Because the assumptions are even more tenuous
25 in the off-road area than in the street area, Suzuki
26 suggests that a reasonable initial sound level be adopted
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1 for off-road motorcycles for 1982 models, that a reasonably
2 lower sound level be proposed for seven years after the
3 initial level, and that a public hearing, and certain EPA
4 findings of effectiveness, be made two years before the
5 effective date of the lower standard.
6 In essence, EPA must recognize that Federal
7 regulations are of limited effectiveness in controlling
8 local use of frequently modified off-road motorcycles.
9 Since Suzuki wants to work with EPA to make
10 Federal regulations as effective as possible, a five-year
11 review will be necessary to determine the effectiveness of
12 the regulation. Otherwise, the manufacturers and consumers
13 would be forced to pay for technology which does not produce
14 any benefits.
15 At this time, Suzuki is unable to suggest a
16 specific off-road strategy to EPA, other than the outline
17 mentioned above.
18 While our general approach is outlined above,
19 we have not yet determined the sound level limits which
20 represent the balance of costs and benefits. Suzuki will
21 submit a specific recommendation to EPA before June 16th.
22 Suzuki feels that the complexity of the proposed
23 regulation is a major problem. Simplicity is crucial to
24 the motorcycle noise regulation.
25 Ninety per cent of the benefits of the regulation
26 depend on reductions in the number of modified motorcycles.
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1 ^o meet this objective, federal, state and local governments,
2 must be able to understand and enforce the regulation.
3 Motorcycle manufacturers and exhaust system manufacturers
4 must be able to understand and comply with the regulation.
5 And dealers and customers must be able to understand the
$ regulation, and the goals of the regulation.
7 The current proposal is a model of complexity.
3 Motorcycle noise control is a complex area. But the
9 current proposal "goes far behond what is necessary to
10 accomplish EPA's goals.
11 The essential parts of the noise control
12 regulation are as follows:
13 1. Manufacturer certification of
14 new motorcycles.
15 2. Certification of replacement
16 exhaust systems.
17 3. Providing an effective method
18 for in-use enforcement of motorcycle
19 sound levels.
20 The Motorcycle Industry Council has developed a
21 program which addressed these needs. The MIC program sets
22 out in twelve pages a far more equitable, equally stringent,
23 noise control program, while it has taken EPA almost one
24 hundred and fifty pages to address the same issues.
25 Admittedly, some of these pages are necessary
26 to structure the proposal in the Federal regulatory manner,
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1 but most of the length of the proposal results in confusion,
2 duplication, frustration and added cost.
3 The following aspects of the regulation should
4 be deleted: The Acoustical Assurance Period, the Sound
5 Level Degredation Factor Determination, Stationary Sound
g Level Labeling, Label Verification, and Selective Enforcement
7 Auditing.
3 The following aspects of the regulation need to
9 be greatly simplified: Production Verification, Vehicle
10 Labeling, Exhaust System Labeling, and the Organization of
11 the Regulation.
12 The AAP and SLDF concepts should not be used for
13 motorcycles. EPA admits that, "a basic assumption in our
14 analysis has been that the noise level of the motorcycle
15 which is properly used and maintained will not degrade, at
16 least not any appreciable amount."
17 Because of the administrative cost involved in
18 determining the SLDF, particularly when specific guidelines
19 are lacking, and since few, if any, benefits will result,
20 Suzuki suggests that the AAP and SLDF be deleted.
21 If problems of product durability arise which we
22 do not now see, EPA can require an AAP in those areas.
23 EPA should not, however, require an AAP simply because EPA
24 has used this concept in other regulations.
25 EPA should delete Vehicle Stationary Sound Level
26 Labeling. The only reason for the level is to aid enforcemeni
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1 No provision is made, however, for the situation when a
2 certified after-market exnaust system has a higher stationary
3 sound level than the original system.
4 The enforcement officer has no way of knowing this
5 The owner might be unjustly cited for violating a noise
5 standard with which he complies.
7 Suzuki suggests that the stationary sound level
8 results for original and after-market systems be reported to
9 EPA in writing, with subsequent distribution to those
10 agencies performing enforcement testing.
11 A practical problem arises if the ninetieth
12 percentile is chosen as a reporting level. How will
13 enforcement officers know whether the vehicle complies or
14 not? A ninetieth percentile value may serve as a guide,
15 but will not be proof. By definition, ten per cent of the
16 vehicles must exceed this level.
17 A better system would provide for manufacturers
18 to report fiftieth percentile levels, plusc. a fixed number —
19 for example, two or three dB, to allow for normal product
20 variability and test-to-test variability.
21 Not only would this serve as a pass-fail
22 enforcement tool, but it would be more helpful to after-
23 market manufacturers, since they would know that the original
24 sound level was the reported value minus the fixed tolerance.
25 Further, manufacturers can determine fiftieth
26 percentile values more accurately with much less testing
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1 required Co determine ninetieth percentile values. A fixed
2 tolerance would also encourage close quality control.
3 Label verification should be deleted. Originally,
4 motorcycle manufacturers offered to perform stationary sound
5 level testing, and report the results to EPA for use as an
6 enforcement tool. EPA has taken this cooperative suggestion
7 by the manufacturers and turned it into a threat to their
9 business.
9 Under EPA's proposal, if a manufacturer reports
10 a slightly inaccurate stationary level, even in good faith,
11 EPA can order the manufactuer to cease to distribute the
12 motorcycle class.
13 There is something basically wrong with this
14 program, if EPA can punish manufacturers for information
15 which the manufacturers develop to help enforcement. A
16 Cease to Distribute order is a far too drastic approach in
17 this area.
18 The manufacturers gain no benefit in reporting a
19 level which is either too high or too low, so there is no
20 reason to punish them for making a mistake. For this reason,
21 Suzuki's suggestion that the stational levels be reported to
22 EPA rather than labeled on the motorcycle becomes even more
23 sensible, since any mistakes can be rectified by a letter
24 to EPA, and EPA notification of enforcement agencies.
25 Another reason for deleting label verification
26 is because of problems which could arise in exhuast system
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1 auditing:
2 First, the manufacturer must determine the
3 ninetieth percentile level, and meet this with his
4 motorcycles.
5 Next, the manufacturer may be required to conduct
6 an exhaust system SEA by the stationary test.
7 On one hand, the stationary value must be exceeded
8 by ten per cent of the exhaust systems in a label verificatio
9 test; and on the other hand, all of of the exhaust systems
10 must meet the labeled value in the exhaust system SEA test.
11 EPA should delete label verification to insure that this
12 problem never arises.
13 Selective enforcement auditing — it should be
14 "SEA11 in my written comments -- should not be adopted at
15 this time. SEA is an expensive program, unwarranted because
16 of the minimal benefits which might be achieved.
17 Suzuki is currently using its test area to full
18 capacity. If we are required to prepare for SEA, we would
19 be forced to build a new test area, and a new warehouse to
20 hold batches, buy new equipment and train additional personne:
21 Until the benefits of EPA's exhaust system
22 regulation, and state and local enforcement, are demonstrated
23 SEA will provide no benefits. EPA already has sufficient
24 authority in Sections 205.159, and 205.170, to deal with any
25 problems which may arise with new vehicles and new exhaust
26 systems.
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1 Again, EPA should not adopt SEA for motorcycles
2 just because it exists in other regulations.
3 The manufacturer's certification burden could be
4 greatly reduced by simplification of the certification
5 process. Self-certification and minimized production
6 verification requirements — for example, reporting
7 certified sound levels to EPA without all the additional
8 unnecessary paper work manufacturers must provide, and EPA
9 must shuffle through — would aid greatly.
10 EPA seems compelled, for some reason, to adopt
11 very complicated, overly burdensome, regulations. The
12 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is charged wit
13 administering the nation's vehicle safety program. For
14 over ten years, NHTSA has handled this vital program
15 through complete self-certification by the inanufacturers,
16 and testing by NHTSA to monitory the industry's performance.
17 Suzuki suggests that EPA study this approach to
18 regulation rather than adopt the burdensome reporting
19 approach currently proposed.
20 Another provision of the NHTSA regulatory program
21 should be adopted by EPA. Title Forty of the Code of Federal
22 Regulations, Part 556, provides a mechanism for exemption
23 for an inconsequential defect or non-compliance.
24 EPA should have a similar mechanism for relieving
25 manufacturers from liability in the event that they make an
26 inconsequential mistake -- for example, in a reporting
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1 requirement.
2 The requirements for exhaust system labeling
3 should be reduced greatly. All that should be required on
4 the product is the manufacturer's name or unique trademark,
5 the model number of the component and the EPA symbol. The
g rest of the information can be presented in written form
7 to the customer and to EPA for distribution to enforcement
3 agencies, while maintaining an acceptable muffler appearance.
9 There is no need 'for the date of manufacture to be on the
10 exhaust system.
11 Finally, the regulation is organized in such a
12 way that it is nearly impossible to follow. Suzuki recognize
13 the difficult burden on EPA in writing the proposal, but.
14 wants to point out that there are far too many sectional
15 cross-references, and that even the necessary cross-
16 references are not organized in a smooth way.
17 The proposal must be significantly reorganized
18 and redrafted to bring it within the directives of Executive
19 Order 12044.
20 As discussed earlier, enforcement is crucial to
21 the ultimate effectiveness of this proposal. If enforcement
22 is ineffective, the public will still be annoyed by noise
23 from the excessively noisy modified motorcycles. EPA
24 and the manufacturers will be blamed for doing an ineffective
25 job.
26 Consistent with our policy, Suzuki would like to
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1 offer to work with EPA, or its contractor, to develop an
2 efficient, effective, enforcement package, for state and
3 local governments.
4 In conclusion, Suzuki supports the goal of
5 reducing environmental noise in an equitable, efficient
6 manner. Suzuki has made the above comments in an effort
7 to help EPA develop a reasonable motorcycle noise control
8 program.
9 EPA must substantially revise its proposal, as
10 outlined in our comments. Otherwise, EPA will be attempting
11 to accomplish far more than is possible, in a regulation
12 seriously inconsistent with stated national and Agency
13 goals.
14 Suzuki Motor Company has worked extensively with
15 the EPA over the past three years. We will continue working
16 with the EPA to develop a better, more realistic regulation.
17 We are willing to carry our fair share of the noise control
18 burden, but we will not tolerate ineffective, inequitable
*° regulations.
20 Suzuki intends to continue its review of the
21 NPRM, and to submit additional comments before June 16th.
22 We hope our comments today, and our comments at that time,
23 prove useful. ~ ~~ ----- .
2' - - -~ We thank the'Environmental Protection Agency
^ for this opportunity to express our views, and we will be
2° happy to answer~any questions that"you might have.
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ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Walsh,
and Suzuki, for the very detailed comments made on the
proposal. We appreciate it.
I have a whole raft of questions dealing with
enforcement which I would like to go into, but before I do
that, let me turn it over the Mr. Edwards to begin the
questioning.
MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Walsh, a great deal of your
questioning of the proposed standards is based on EPA's
own health and welfare analysis, and perhaps your surveys,
and other results, plus your working of EPA's data. I think
it would be perhaps inappropriate for me to go too deeply
into that. I would be more making statements than asking
you questions about what it was you have done with EPA's
data, or are you questioning our assumptions?
Do I assume that you will be perhaps somewhat
more detailed in your written comments on June 16th
quettioning individual facets of that analysis?
MR. WALSH: Appendix "B" of these comments goes
into some detail regarding our analysis.
MR. EDWARDS: Perhaps that is sufficient. I
don't know.
MR. WALSH: We're certainly willing to discuss
that with you at some point between now and June 16th, or
even afterwards, and if more information is necessary, we
will provide more information.
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1 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. So please don't take my lack
2 of questions on that subject either as ignoring your comments
3 or a lack of interest in that area. I just don't think this
4 is the appropriate forum for us to go into right now.
5 I do have several questions, though, in areas
6 that you did not touch on. The first is: EPA has provided
7 its own analysis of — it's own analysis based in very large
8 part on what the manufacturers have supplied to EPA on what
9 would happen at the 78 decibel level to motorcycle appearance
10 performance, features, and the cost of compliance.
11 Do I take it that since you have not argued, in
12 these prepared remarks, with the costs that EPA has cited —
13 in fact, you used them yourself — that Suzuki does not
14 feel that they are overstated in the case of Suzuki
15 motorcycles?
16 MR. WALSH: I have got to respond to that by
17 saying that, because of the somewhat limited time in
18 preparing for this, and because of the time that we used in
19 preparing the comments that we did present, we did not have
20 time, so far, to go into detailed analysis of the cost data.
21 I think we are planning to go into that in more
22 detail, and that will be included in our written submission.
23 MR. EDWARDS: Is that the same situation with
24 regards to the technology required at the various regulatory
25 levels?
26 MR. WALSH: Yes.
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1 MR. EDWARDS: That, of course, is a great
2 concern we heard expressed this morning, the concern that
3 perhaps every motorcycle at that level would be necessarily a
4 liquid cooled cooled motorcycle? We heard from Mr. Campbell
5 before that we're going to end up with multi-cylinder engines
6 on every motorcycle, and indeed, EPA does make reference to
7 both of these techniques.
8 It would be very interesting for us to discuss
9 further the eventual possible impacts on the motorcycles
10 at these levels. This was a very important area of EPA's
11 considerations in developing the proposal.
12 MR. WALSH: Mr. Hirano is with us here today,
13 and he may be able to address some of those concerns. I'm
14 not sure how extensive we want to get involved in a
15 technology discussion right now.
16 MR. EDWARDS: I think, perhaps, this is not the
17 best forum for that.
18 MR. WALSH: But I think that the thrust of our
19 regulation was that — of our comments, rather, was that,
20 even if we have major difficulties with EPA's technology
21 and cost analysis at levels below 83 dB(A), that's not
22 really an imminent concern of EPA's, as of'.our position
23 in it. We have got to determine whether the 83 dB regulation
94
** will be effective, first, before we get into the problems
«c
*** with the lower number . . .
26 MR. EDWARDS: I understand that, but I think that
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1 we have to at least consider it to be a possibility, that
2 EPA would promulgate regulations that are not substantially
3 different from the proposed rules, for discussion purposes.
4 A question on the acoustical assurance period:
5 You mentioned the fact that in EPA's statement that the
6 products are not expected to degrade significantly, and hence
7 there is no need for an AAP. Does Suzuki feel that -- does
8 Suzuki agree that there is likely to be little deterioration
9 during the first year of operation of a production motorcycle
10 MR. WALSH: Suzuki has submitted information to
11 the EPA which shows that, at least for our products, there
12 is no deterioration over certain accumulated distance. In
13 fact, if anything, sound control tends to improve with
14 distance, with our products.
15 MR. EDWARDS: In another area, Suzuki is a
16 well known manufacturer of competition off-road motorcycles.
17 Does Suzuki have any comment on the distinction that EPA
18 has tried to create between competition and off-road
19 motorcycles; and an area where we're very concerned about
20 is, do you believe that this will be an effective measure
21 to at least help the state level folks to distinguish from
22 competition from off-road motorcycles, and will be able to
23 enforce values and measures-appropriate?
2* . MR. WALSH^ At the present time, our competition
25 moto-cross motorcycles are already labeled as competition
2? motorcycles, both_pn_the frame and_.pn the gas_tankr-_To the
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1 extent that this is used as an enforcement tool, we don't
2 have very much feedback. You might talk to some enforcement
3 people, if you get a chance in these hearings, or later on.
4 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Walsh, will you forgive us for
5 one moment while I ask a question of Mr. Kozlowski?
6 (Whereupon, Mr. Edwards and Acting
7 " Chairman Kozlowski, held a discussion,
8 inaudible to the audience, and off the
9 record.)
10 Mr. Walsh, that is something I believe Mr.
11 Thomas would like to cover, and I will not attempt to cover
12 it right now. But I may change my mind on that.
13 MR. WALSH: Does that mean his return is imminent?
14 MR. EDWARDS: We understand that it is. Unless
15 that eventuality occurs, then I would have to question you
16 again. Thank you very much.
17 MR. NAVEEN: Mr. Walsh, in your statement, you
18 raised a number of legal concerns and questions, and also,
19 some concerns and questions that are probably a mixed
20 question of law and policy. Let me•try to address about
21 six of then that I have identified.
22 The first: Early on in yourstatement is about
2« the executive order on complex regulations. We have been
24 directed, in the Agency, to try to comply with this order,
25 and are doing our best. This regulation at hand represents
2® one of the early efforts in the-Agency to try to comply with
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1 the new administration's efforts in this regard, and I can
2 assure you, we will try to make things a uncomplex as
3 possible. A lot of the confusion which you talk about is
4 necessary because of the way regulations have to be written.
5 We will continue, however, to explore the possibilities of
6 making things somewhat clearer. We appreciate your concern
7 and we will take your comments.
8 MR. WALSH: We certainly appreciate any efforts
9 you might make in that area, and feel that, maybe, by
10 eliminating some of the sections we proposed, the more
11 important sections of the regulation may be more easily
12 understood.
13 MR. NAVEEN: The two arms of any agency that get
14 criticized the most for making regulations complex is usually
15 the attorneys and tachnicians, so we have certainly received
16 our share of the criticism because of some legal jargon
17 that's involved, and our new boss has directed us to try to
18 correct the problem.
19 Another concern you raised early on in your
20 statement was reminiscent of one that the BMW owners raised
21 earlier, that it is only the minority of users that are the
22 problem.
23 I simply want to point out that the Noise Act has
2* directed us to try to treat on a national scale only those
25 problems which we believe to be national in scope, and
26 indeed, the kind of approach we have adopted here is to say
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1 that part of the problem with motorcycles is a national
2 problem, namely, what can be done at the manufacturers'
3 level to provide a product to the customers that is quiet,
4 and part of the program, however, as we recognize and as
5 many of our witnesses have recognized, is that there is much
6 tampering that takes place, and indeed, there is a state and
7 local aspect to this.
8 I don't know if we can just simply identify
9 modified motorcycles as a problem, and treat them as
10 something that we have thought about in the approach that
11 we've taken here is a conscious one, and we appreciate your
12 concerns, gain, but I don't know what other route we could
13 have chosen.
14 If you have any further suggestions, we might
15 appreciate them.
16 MR. WALSH: I am not sure that we suggested that
17 new motorcycles not be dealt with at all. In fact, we
18 recognize the importance of having a coordinated regulation
19 to make all the aspects of the regulation work together
20 so that, at the manufacturers' level, and for the manufacturers
21 to provide tools for enforcing it, so we're not suggesting
22 that new motorcycles just be completely forgotten.
23 HR. j^AVEEN: Okay. The next point I want to
24 raise: On Page 7 of your statement you get into a
25 discussion -- into a suggestion regarding public hearings
26 in the future, or five year reviews. We have not taken that
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1 approach, and believe that probably they are unnecessary.
2 There is ample precedent in the D.C. circuit
3 which overviews all of these regulations, that at any time
4 if there is new information that becomes available to the
5 public that indicates a regulation -- in this case, a
6 national regulation controlling a particular kind of noise •
7 should be amended on the basis of this new information,
8 whether it be cost information, or health and welfare
9 information, or otherwise, there is ample precedent for the
10 public to petition EPA for relief.
11 Another concern we have, which is probably more
12 of a Policy One policy concern is that we believe that the
13 administrative uncertainty that might be involved with the
14 regulation that says, "This is what we'll do in the first
15 few years, and then in five years, we'll look at it again
16 and maybe clamp down a little bit tighter," that may be
17 too much of a sort of a sword of Damocles to hold over the
18 manufacturers, so we have chosen the approach that -- we
19 have taken --we will take your suggestions to heart and
20 see whether any changes should be made, but up until now
2* we have not taken this approach.
22 MR. WALSH: I think that it may be necessary in
23
this case, as the Agency has come to recognize that the
94
" motorcycle noise control problem is really unique and
25 extremely complex.
Management of the program to control motorcycle
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1 noise at the Federal level may necessarily involve this type
2 of approach because of the lack of predictability of some
3 of the Agency's presumptions.
4 I'm not sure that the program that we suggest
5 would be any more comforting to our industry than having
6 a regulation which says, "Sound level for some year in the
7 future reserved," as has been used with the truck regulation.
8 We feel that the approach that we suggest
9 recognizes the reality of the situation, and would result
10 in an overall better regulation than having to go to court
11 to have the judge interpret the new information that we
12 find.
13 MR. NAVEEN: In your discussion of the AAP and
14 the SLDF in your statement, I recall Mr. Isley's testimony
15 on the first day when we began to discuss some of the
16 practical aspects of those concepts. His concerns seemed
17 to be about the practical aspects of determining what these
18 degradation factors would be, and one of the suggestions
19 from the panel would be — was to, perhaps, reserve; enacting
20 an SLDF until a later point in time.
21 I would like to ask you whether you think it
22 might be a practical idea for us to defer that concept for
23 possible later enactment, and either, (a), retain the AAP
24 concept, that is, new bikes shall not -- new motorcycles
25 shall not degrade for a certain period of time, or whether
26 that concept should also be delayed?
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1 MR. WALSH: That got pretty involved.
2 MR NAVEEN: I'm sorry. Would you like me to
3 break that out a little bit and go over it again?
4 MR. WALSH: Yes, please.
5 MR. NAVEEN: The acoustical assurance period
6 suggests that new motorcycles last for a certain period of
7 time. Accompanying that concept in our regulations is
8 that a certain degradation factor would be determined so
9 that manufacturers can establish how much the product might
10 degrade, so that they will in any event meet the standards
11 which we have proposed.
12 The earlier testimony that I referred to evidenced
13 some concern about the cost of determining that degradation
14 factor, and suggested that we might delay any implementation
15 of that concept until a later period, so that the manufacturers
16 had a chance to work with the new regulation and actually
17 had a chance to figure out what those degradation factors
18 are.
19 • I guess the first question that I've got is
20 whether you would agree with that suggestion?
21 MR. WALSH: That would certainly be better than
22 adopting it immediately, adopting the SLDF and the AAP
23 together.
24 One of the things that might be helpful with an
25 SLDF determination is using some of the vehicles that were
«e
M> used in emission durability data collections, but then we
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1 get into problems with emission categories being different
2 than noise categories.
3 I don't know if the Enforcement Office has
4 coordinated — talked about that with the noise enforcement
5 people, and talked to the air enforcement people, but
6 that's one possibility that would help the manufacturers.
7 One of the problems we face is that we would
8 have to determine an SLDF for the entire vehicle, and than
9 an SLDF for the exhaust system also, under the exhaust
10 system section of the regulation, and while we don't anticipa
11 any problems with the AAP, the cost of administering any
12 claims which might come in from customers — I guess they
13 would be warranty claims and they would be covered anyway --
14 but the problems of just doing all the administrative work
15 that goes along with that seems particularly unwarranted
16 at this time, when any benefits which might be gained are
17 just a small part of any benefits that might be gained from
18 the entire new motorcycle regulation, which again, is just
19 a small part of the many benefits which are going to be
20 gained from from the whole regulation here.
21 MR. NAVEEN: If the SLDF concept was dropped in
22 the final regulation, but the AAP concept retained, what
23 would your company's position be about that; again, simply
24 that the standards should be met for a certain period of
25 time, and indeed, if a user has not tampered with his bike,
26 or modified it in any way, has a product which doesn't
:e
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1 comply with that AAP, he possibly could bring a warranty
2 claim.
3 What would your company's reaction be to that, jus
4 having the AAP in the regulation?
5 MR. WALSH: I would like to defer a detailed
6 answer on that question until later, but off the top of my
7 head, as you pointed out, because any problems with noise
8 control degradation that would appear in the AAP would
9 appear pretty quickly with a new product, and we would
10 probably have to process a regular warranty claim right now
11 for that, so my reaction is, we don't anticipate — we
12 wouldn't anticipate a big problem with that, but except for
13 all the administrative work, and just being prepared to drop
14 a bunch of stuff on EPA's lap and say, "Well, this is how
15 we do this."
16 MR. NAVEEN: We're interested in hearing
17 manufacturers tell us that their products do not degrade
18 because that is what we believe, at least for the periods
1' we have chosen, and you've indicated that your products do
2" show some durability, so, we would appreciate any detailed
2* thoughts you'd have in that area.
oo
** Next, I was going to comment, some, on the
V\
** statement of Page 13 regarding possible liability of the
24
** manufacturer for slightly inaccurate reporting data, rather
25
M slight infractions. I will let Mr. Kozlowski answer that
2fi
in a while. Let me just remind you, and everybody here,
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1 that a number of the enforcements aspects of this regulation
2 are in current litigation in the Atlas, Cogdorff, and
3 Chrysler suits (some phonetic spellings used) in the B.C.
4 circuit involving the truck regulation, the air compressor
5 regulation, that I mentioned on the first day of the hearing.
6 We will keep in mind whatever the mandate of the
7 court's decision to us about those. I will defer to Mr.
8 Kozlowski about that enforcement aspect.
9 The last comment that I've got has to do with
10 some statements on. Page 15. You referred to the National
11 Highway Traffic Safety Administration, an exemption policy
12 that they had in their regulation and suggest that EPA do
13 the same here.
14 It has been our standing policy based on our
15 office's interpretation of the Noise Act that such exemptions
16 whether the form of such exemption, or an exception, or
17 various waivers from the applicability, are not appropriate
18 under this statutory authority or its legislative history.
19 Part of the legal reasoning behind that is the
20 Act's statement that all products must comply when sold in
21 commerce, plus Congress', I would say, undue concern, and
22 excess verbiage about standards, wanting EPA to promulgate
23 standards that are uniform and preempt the states, so that
24 the manufacturers would not have to face varying regulations
25 from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
26 We think that that history, and that authority,
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1 albeit this is not the Clean Air Act, or some of the other
2 pieces of legislation that have volumes of history behind
3 them, but we believe that such a policy is not appropriate
4 here, and none of our new product regulations have we
5 provided for such a policy.
g We will, however, review your suggestion, and
7 it will be appropriately commented on.
8 MR. WALSH: Thank you.
9 MR. NAVEEN: No further comments or questions.
10 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Thank you, Ronald.
11 Mr. Walsh, what level of noise is Suzuki's latest
12 models of bike generally achieving?
13 MR. WALSH: From the data that I've seen on our
14 recent models, they range from under the SAE J-331a test
15 from the upper seventies to the low eighties for our street
16 models.
17 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: So you would then
18 have no trouble of meeting that 83 decibel standard with
19 your current models, right?
20 MR. WALSH: I am not sure yet if we have done
21 enough testing with the newly proposed test procedures to
22 determine whether we might have some problems or not.
23 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOSKI: I have two lines of
24 questionings on that. Let me take the second one first,
25 to get back to the question that Mr. Naveen asked.
26 Now, if in fact the industry needed lead time
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1 to develop an SLDF -- and, incidentally, you don't have to
2 do durability testing; the regulations give the manufacturer
3 a lot of lattitude as to how he determines what his
4 deterioration would be; yours would probably be zero based
5 on what you said here — but, if you need that year's lead
6 time to actually get information on bikes that do, in fact,
7 meet the standard, I suggest you do that right now, with
8 this current model, because, generally, you won't need to
9 make very many changes to meet the first level standard.
10 MR. WALSH: I am sure that we would like to do
11 that, and we may, in fact, be doing that.
12 Again, because of the uncertainties inherent in
13 the regulation-making process, we don't know until the
14 regulations are finally promulgated what the test procedures
15 and standards will be.
16 Certainly, we have accumulated deterioration
17 data in the past, and we will continue to do so.
18 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: So, therefore, you
19 wouldn't need any delay between the actual implementation
20 date for the standard, and the actual implementation date
21 for the AAP, because you currently have bikes on which you
22 can get that now.
23 MR. WALSH: I can not answer conclusively that
2^ that we've got data on all — we have enough data, at this
25 time, that we're happy, completely satisfied with all of
2° the products, not that there are any problems, but I'm not
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I - " ~
sure that all of it has been tested as extensively as it
2
3
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
could.
ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Okay. Could I say,
then, that you generally — you generally -- believe your
product line generally, that you wouldn't need that delay
between the actual implementation date of the standard,
and for the AAP and SLDF, because you either have that
information, or can get it on the current model vehicles?
MR. WALSH: As a practical matter, I see some
difficulty, because I'm not as familiar with the SLDF as,
of course, you people are. I'm not sure how extensive EPA's
requirement of documentation will be.
It was hard for Suzuki to say that what we have
now, and what we know now, is sufficient to satisfy EPA
that our SLDF determination is appropriate.
ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Well, I don't want
to parry with you on the question because we seem to be
ducking each other and I don't want to put you in the
corner to making a commitment on the record now off the
top of your head for the corporation, but let me indicate
what the records may include by quoting the regulations:
"The records may include," this goes to the SLDF -- "The
records may include, but not be limited to, the following:
Durability data and actual noise testing on critical noise
producing or attenuating components; 2, Sound level
deterioration curves on the entire vehicle; and 3, Data
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1 from products in actual use," and of course, you could use
2 other information that could lead you that that conclusion
3 too.
4 It just appears to me that if you are currently
5 making the product which meets the standard, that you can
6 begin now, and you probably would as a matter of general
7 product development test, to see if the noise levels, in
8 fact, lasted over that acoustical assurance period.
9 MR. WALSH: Yes. As a practical matter, could
10 I ask you if this has turned out to be a problem with the
11 truck regulation, whether Enforcement Division has issued
12 an advisory circular on how to determine SLDF? Is there
13 more than that?
14 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Yeah. The current
15 truck regulation does not have an SLDF or an acoustical
16 assurance period, and we wouldn't do that by advisories,
17 certainly, if we wanted it read, we would include that in
18 our requirement.
19 Second line of thought: If Suzukis are currently
20 now generally below the 83 decibel level, why do you
21 support Federal regulation at all?
22 (Witness non-responsive to the
23 question.)
24 Let me ask a second question: If they are
25 currently below, and the problem is modified bikes, why
26 Federal regulation at all?
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1 MR. WALSH: As I mentioned to Mr. Naveen, as
2 we see getting a handle on the motorcycle noise problem,
3 coordination at the Federal level will be helpful in
4 getting uniform product distributing in commerce, in
5 providing uniform enforcement tools for the state and local
6 governments, so that the effectiveness of state and local
7 enforcement can be maximized.
8 Certainly, the Noise Control Act, as I see it,
9 recognizes that there is a need for uniformity of treatment
10 of products, and that's probably another reason, in addition
11 to the need for uniformity in getting an effective enforcernen
12 tool.
13 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Okay. I think that's
14 right. The State of California, of course, could require
15 new product testing and demonstration now, if it so desired,
16 and does, and could impose -- and as a matter of fact, take
17 these regulations and promulgate them themselves, as could
18 Oregon and the other state.
19 What it gets down to, I guess, is that the reason
20 Suzuki supports the regulation, as I read it, without being
21 too harsh, is that what it would propose for us, rather than
22 this be the noise emission standard regulation, this be a
23 Federal preemption regulation.
24 MR. WALSH: Well, we don't see it as quite that
25 much of a free ride that you are trying to make it sound.
26 It certainly, as anybody who tries to read the regulations
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1 knows, it's a very difficult thing to try and comply with
2 the regulations.
3 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: It would not be
4 difficult at all if your bikes are already meeting the
5 standard.
6 MR. WALSH: Well, in order to administer
7 compliance.
8 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: But there would be
9 no administration if you weren't in business. If we didn't
10 regulate, you wouldn1t have to worry about STA, and product
11 verification, and SLDF's, and AAP's, and what other items —
12 Again, I'm not trying to badger you. I am trying
13 to make a point. I don't understand why, or how -- I guess
14 I do understand why and how you commit -- but it's not,
15 clearly not, environmental regulation at that point, as
16 far as I'm concerned.
17 MR. WALSH: Well, let me just add a little bit
18 to that, and that is, that we're not just suggesting that
19 the regulation stop at 83 dB, but we're suggesting that, as
20 a coordinated effort of reduction of environmental noise
21 by the Agency, that this be the first step.
22 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Yes, I know what you
23 are saying, the regulations oughtn't die, they should just
24 really go into a coma for the next eleven years.
25 MR. WALSH: Well, we don't see -- Well, if
26 you're predicting the effectiveness of your regulation as
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1 being quite that bad, maybe. We certainly hope that things
2 are a little bit better.
3 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: My second question
4 is along the same lines, and perhaps we should just skip
5 over it quickly, but I would like -- and this, then, becomes
6 a comment -- you indicated in your testimony that we ought
7 to take things one step at a time. The first step is to
8 quiet the modified bikes, and the second step, if it ever
9 comes, is to-worry about reducing the regulation for new
10 bikes.
11 You are also say on Page 6 and Page 9 of your
12 testimony — or seem to imply, on those pages -- that we
13 make assumptions that modified bikes can be quieted by
14 state and local actions, and that that, at best, is a
15 questionable assumption; ergo, we ought to wait and see
16 whether we do that before we get into regulating the quieter
17 bikes; which, I guess, makes some sense.
18 I would argue that we ought to do both. If we
19 assume that we will be able to quiet modified bikes, then
20 we ought to assume at the same time, that we ought to get
21 the new bikes down as quiet as we can practically do,
22 within the limit of the law, and if we can't get modified
23 bikes quiet, then I think you're right, that it is something
24 we oughtn't to be doing.
25 (Whereupon, Chairman Thomas returned
26 to the hearing panel.)
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1 With reference specifically to the enforcement
2 requirement testimony, on Page 41, you indicate the EPA
3 requires too much testing of motorcycles in order to
4 demonstrate compliance.
5 Now, of course, we do not intend that the industry
6 do too much testing. We thought our testing requirements
7 were minimal, to say the least; that is, you test one
8 production bike in a category one time a year with potential
9 for carrying that over in the future years if things don't
10 change. We didn't think that was very much testing at all.
11 As a matter of fact, we thought you'd probably
12 be doing more testing than just to convince yourselves that
13 you are meeting the standard.
14 How much testing would you do to demonstrate to
15 yourselves that your motorcycles meet a standard absent
16 any EPA requirement to test? How many bikes would you test?
17 MR. WALSH: Perhaps Mr. Hirano could best answer
18 that question as far as our current practice of testing for
19 compliance with existing state regulations.'
20 (Whereupon, Mr. Walsh conferred with
21 Mr. Hirano, off the record.)
22 Mr. Kozlowski, let me submit that information
23 later, in our written submission. It gets pretty involved
24 with testing for different markets, and things like that.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay; fine. Could I ask another
26 general question? Perhaps you would have to submit that,
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1 for the record, but what I am getting at is, how much
2 attional testing would be required, plainly and simply,
3 because of the Federal regulations, and -- you can do that
4 later.
5 MR. WALSH: Okay. I think that's one of the
g areas of duplication that we're concerned about is in the
7 compliance with the replacement exhaust system regulation,
8 in addition to the new vehicle regulation, where — well —
9 apparently we're exempt from a lot of testing under the
10 replacement exhaust system regulation. We do have to
11 determine SLDF for that, for the exhaust system, in each
12 class, and go through the record keeping for that.
13 MR. PETROLATI: Are you talking about the same
14 exhaust system that is suppied with the motorcycle? You're
15 not talking about a different model?
16 MR. WALSH: No.
17 MR. PETROLATI: Okay.
18 MR. KOZLOWSKI: We will take a look at that.
19 I don't believe that it was not the intent, and I don't
20 believe the regulations require an additional SLDF determination,
21 when an exhaust system is tested on the original motorcycle.
22 But, we will take a look at the regulation and make sure
23 that that is, in fact, clear.
24 MR. WALSH: Thank you.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. We would also like to
26 follow up, if there is a way that we can test by category,
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1 we can reduce the testing burden by exchanging the
2 configurations or categories in a way that makes sense, and
3 so that we're not, you know, in a nonsensical way, and I
4 wish you would submit that to us in your written submission
5 because we don't want to have that testing problem here.
6 On Page 10 — I don't want to debate words — you
7 indicate that we have a certification program. We don't.
8 The testing program -- enforcement program --in this
9 regulation is one generally run by the manufacturer. You
10 do the testing. You don't need a certificate from EPA to
11 begin introducing product into commerce. All you need to
12 do is to test the product yourself, the early production
13 product, and determine that it meets the standard, and
14 submit that report to us, and you're off and running. You
15 don't need any certificate from us. That is different from
16 the certification program that you might know from the
17 air emission side.
18 MR. WALSH: In the absence of the reception of
19 the formal certificate, yes; I believe there are requirements
20 of submission of the maintenance instruction, and some of
21 the literature like that, which must be proved ahead of time.
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: The anti-tampering . . .
23 MR. WALSH: The anti-tamper ing . . .
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: . . . must be submitted, the
25 maintenance instructions need to be submitted, that would
26 te done whether there is any testing or not. We want to
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1 make sure that those lists are consistent with the law, but
2 the testing' itself is done by the manufacturer, on his own
3 site, with his own people, normally, and they . . .
4 MR. WALSH: I know that.
5 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. It's different than the
g certification program, period!
7 Do you want us to delete the SCA program because
8 it is very costly? How much will the SCA cost Suzuki?
9 MR. WALSH: At the beginning it would cost --
10 it would be the additional cost of building another test
11 site, as well as training the additional personnel. We
12 submitted the cost for an endeavor like that to EPA before,
13 a couple of years ago, in one of our submissions then.
14 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I think we discussed it at that
15 point too, but my point is that, there is no testing under
16 the selective enforcement noise regulations until so ordered
17 by EPA, so there is no cost inherent in the program to any
18 manufacturer. I was . . .
19 ' MR. WALSH: But the manufacturer must be prepared
20 to receive the order when he gets it. He can't, say, "Well,
21 hold on for a long while until I build the test site."
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Does that mean, then, that
23 Suzuki, once it did its product verification testing, would
24 not test another motorcycle after that?
25 MR. WALSH: I think that our current quality
26 control products internal product auditing procedures deal
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1 with periodic testing of our vehicles for compliance with
2 many different standards and regulations for this country,
3 and for other countries.
4 We see the SEA program as being quite a formal
5 requirement, requiring a separate facility and setup to do
6 that sort of thing, so the answer to your question is, no,
7 we would not stop testing those products, but yes, we do
8 see a significant impact by the existence of the SEA approach
9 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Well, is it your suggestion, then,
10 that once you do the product verification testing, that there
11 would never be any required testing by the manufacturer
12 after that?
13 MR. WALSH: Under the other sections of those
14 regulations, the administrator could test himself, if there
IS was any problem with that.
16 MR. KOZLOWSKI: The administrator can always test
17 himself. But, you didn't answer my question. You would
18 then see no required testing by the manufacturer after that
19 one test, one category, one time only, in the year?
20 MR. WALSH: Even if the SEA exists, there is no
21 additional required testing by the manufacturer until he
22 receives an order.
23 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I'm sorry, you're parrying with
24 me, but not answering my question.
25 MR. WALSH: I don't intend to do that, I'm sorry,
26 but if we — excuse me.
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1 (Whereupon, the witness conferred
2 with Messrs. Nakamura and Hirano, off the
3 record.)
4 Mr. Kozlowski, excuse me. You were not saying --
5 you were not asking whether we planned to do no testing
S after we had done production verification, you were asking
7 whether we were concerned that the regulation required
8 additional testing and that was bad?
9 MR. KOZLOWSLI: No. I tried to find out how
10 much testing, number one, would have -- would Suzuki be
11 doing, whether we ordered any SEA's or not, how much testing
12 would you be doing on your own, period! And then, if we
13 ordered an SEA, how much testing would that add -- how much
14 additional testing would that add? Excuse me ...
15 - MR. WALSH: As we agreed to before, we would
16 submit, in writing, what we currently do for product
17 testing after we do our prototype testing, and so on, and
18 our production testing. Then, we periodically select
19 vehicles and test them. And we will submit the details of
20 that program later.
21 The problem with an SEA order is that we could
22 not predict when that was coming in, and how our test
23 facilities were currently being utilized at that time,
24 so whether we would be able to -- in order to prepeare for
25 that eventuality we would need some additional facility;
26 and, as I understand it, basically, there is no limit on how
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1 many SEA orders the administrator could issue each year if
2 he wanted to.
3 MR. KOZLOWSKI: There is no limit in the regulatioji
4 The orders, of course, would have to be reasonable, under
5 our system of adminstrative law; but again, I don't want to
6 make statements, but Section 13A1 of the Act specifically
7 allows the administrator to require that the manufacturer
8 makes such tests, and the SEA merely lays out a scheme whereb
9 the administrator could.
10 In the absence of those regulations, the
11 administrator could still come in and order the testing,
12 and there is no limit in the legislation, so if the
13 manufacturer thought that he had to take care of all
14 contingencies, once again, he would have to be prepared to
15 do mammoth testing, so that the presence or the absence of
16 an SEA section in the regulation would not indicate an
17 intent on the part of the administrator to test, or a lack
18 of intent, or whether that is the scheme he will use when
19 he does require the test.
20 MR. WALSH: Thank you for pointing that out to
21 us. We will look into that further and see, maybe, if we
22 can add some substance to what we said before, that as a
23 policy matter, we don't see that many benefits in SEA right
24 now.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Well, of course — I won't debate
26 that point any more. As a matter of fact, I'll stop talking
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1 about SEA.
2 On Page 12 of your testimony, you talk about the
3 ninetieth percentile labeling requirement isn't any good,
4 and suggest that a fiftieth percentile would be better, it's
5 an easier statistic to do, you do less testing. I don't
6 understand that. I wish you would explain that.
7 And then, after that, the second part of my
8 question: What if the Agency would propose a stationary
9 standard for the label as opposed to either percentile?
10 We have a suggestion in the regulations. Would you comment
11 on that?
12 MR. WALSH: Regarding the stationary standard,
13 of course it would depend on what the standard was before
14 we could comment on whether it was good or bad.
15 The reason we suggest the fiftieth percentile
16 value rather than the ninetieth percentile value is that if
17 we test to determine fiftieth percentile, we won't need to
18 test thirty bikes. We can determine that with a high degree
19 of confidence with a lot less testing.
20 Certainly, we can test fewer bikes and determine
21 fiftieth percentile with higher confidence than if we test
22 thirty bikes in the ninetieth percentile.
23 MR. PETROLATI: What are-the differences in the
" number of tests?
25 MR. WALSH: I don't have, right now, how much
25 easier it would be, but statistically, it's easier to
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1 determine your mean value with a fewer number of tests, than
2 with your actual distribution.
3 MR. PETROLATI: With what sort of confidence?
4 MR. WALSH: The same -- well — under the proposal
5 we would be required to test thirty vehicles so that we
6 could determine the ninetieth percentile value.
7 MR. PETROLATI: That is incorrect. There is no
8 number of tests that you have to do to determine ninetieth
9 percentile requirements. The thirty tests -- and it may be
10 different from manufacturer to manufacturer — is only to
11 determine whether or not you have labeled at the ninetieth
12 percentile. Subsequently, you can do as many tests as you
13 want in determining that ninetieth percentile. We check
14 by doing thirty tests.
15 MR. WALSH: I'm sorry. I.stand corrected.
16 MR. PETROLATI: Okay.
17 MR. KOZLOWSKI: John, what I would like is, if
18 there is a difference in the number of tests required to
19 determine the statistic, fifty per cent versus ninety, would
20 you submit that for the record too?
21 MR. WALSH: Yes, I will.
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay; thank you.
23 On Page 13 of your testimony, you indicate that
24 vou could be penalized by a Cease to Distribute order from
25 making one mistake in good faith in the product verification.
«e
*° Once again, that is inconsistent with the
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regulations. I will cite Section 205.157-10, which
indicates the Agency, clearly, . . .
(Whereupon, Mr. Edwards left the
hearing panel.)
. . . oversee if the distributor or the manufacturer has
made a good faith effort to try to verify. Okay?
MR. WALSH: That's the same thing for the label
verification report?
MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes.
And again, without making a speech, the idea of
the Cease to Distribute is this, that you made a mistake
in testing the bikes for a standard and putting the label
on, what we're saying is, "Whoa, stop, make the correction,
and then, keep going distributing your product."
The Cease and Distribute doesn't sound — or, it
isn't as bad as it sounds. That's an editorial comment.
Again, "burdensome reporting": You criticize
the regulations because of burdensome reporting. We don't
intend that that reporting be burdensome. You do need to
submit maintenance instruction and a tampering lesson, and
what we have seen from the truckers and compressors who are
regulated, are not bad.
The product verification.report, we think, could
be done on one sheet. Now, we do want more than just the
decibel level because.there are other things, such as extra
quality control, that -might..be -done, and we run-into those
. CU) 4)7 1327
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types of problems with the truckers and the compressor
people now. That is, you know, they do have quality -- they
do'have special fixes to perform sometimes, they tell us,
in the product verification report.
If that information is too burdensome, tell us
what you want deleted, because we don't intend it to be
burdensome. A one sheet report for each category we think
would be enough, once you got beyond the site description,
and things like that.
MR. WALSH: By reading through the proposal, it
seems as though there's a lot of paperwork generation, and
our comment was based on the apparent need for submitting
a lot of information which, at this time, seems a little
unnecessary, but we will submit some additional comments
to you specifically how that might be able to be improved.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: That's fine.
On Page 14, you say that the NHTSA has a special
safety valve — relief valve, for inconsequential violations.
Ron pointed out the problem in granting exemptions. I point
out that we, too, have that safety valve for inconsequential
violations. That's enforcement discretion. We don't have
to or seek to distribute orders, we don't have to order
retesting, and we don't have to order recalls, every time
a manufacturer makes a slight mistake in building a product
or in reporting the results of a test; and, as a matter of
factj our experience so far with the people we regulate is
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1 that we do get incorrect reports, and we tell them to go
2 back and give us the correct information now. That's
3 been the extent of the enforcement action, and in most of
4 the cases they have come up with it. So, we don't need that,
i
5 specifically, we found, that relief valve, to have the
6 regulation work.
7 We did -- again, this is a comment and then a
8 question to follow up --we have worked with the emissions
9 people in the motorcycle regulations. We have reviewed the
10 categories and configurations for both noise and emissions.
11 We concluded that they were so different that you couldn't
12 test the same category bikes for noise and for emissions,
13 and that it just wouldn't work for the manufacturers as
14 well as for the Agency
15 If Suzuki sees where a particular category or — o
16 where we can modify the categories that makes sense such that
17 we can test one product for both we would be very happy to
18 do that.
19 Again, we do not intend any mammoth testing,
20 or any unnecessary testing, so if you could tell us, and
21 rearrange our categories so they were consistent with the
22 emission categories and make sense, we would be very happy
23 to consider that.
24 MR. WALSH: Okay; fine.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That's all I have. Thank you,
26 John.
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1 MR. PETROLATI: John, first question, Page 4 —
2 of course, I may have to backtrack, and may have to address
3 some of the questions Rich brought up: The statement is
4 that an 83 decibel standard will quiet the motorcycle down
5 to approximately the same level as automobiles in normal
6 operation. What are you talking about as far as a noise
7 level is concerned under normal operation?
8 MR. WALSH: The studies that MIC indicate that
9 automobiles in normal operation, normal cruise on city
10 streets, are, you know, as high as 60 dB limit range,
11 around 68 or 69, and stock motorcycles under the same
12 operating conditions are around 71, 72 decibels.
13 MR. PETROLATI: Would you be recommending those
14 same levels for in-use enforcement levels in that they
15 represent normal operation of the vehicle?
16 MR. WALSH: I think that there would be a
17 problem in saying that, telling somebody, "Well, most of
18 the time, you have to operate your vehicle at the level
19 that it operates best under a constant cruise condition."
20 I think I heard you ask this once before, I'm
21 not sure, that the level that's chosen — I haven't seen
22 any enforcement programs that have adopted levels for
23 normal enforcement which try to set that level at the mean
24 level of operations, so if the average motorcycle operates
25 at 71 dB, if you set your limit at that, then that, by
26 definition makes half the people in violation. Practically,
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1 I don't see how you can dc that.
2 'MR. PETROLATI: Okay; fine.
3 I'm a little unsure, based on your problem with
4 the lead time in that you recommend a 1982 for the initial
5 83 standard. The reason that you bring out for that is
6 because you were unsure, at this time, what the test procedur
7 is going to be.
8 Are you relating to the difference in that EPA
9 may adopt SAE J-331a instead of its proposed procedure,
10 and then this will cause you difficulties?
11 MR. WALSH: Yes, or some modification of either
12 one.
13 MR. PETROLATI: On which motorcycles are we
14 talking about now? You say that the motorcycles range from
15 the high 70's to the low 80's measured J-331a, so which
16 problems -- or which motorcycles are going to have problems
17 in the two different test procedures?
18 MR. WALSH: I haven't seen data yet which
19 indicates that any specific model would have a difficulty
20 with either the 331a or the proposed test as far as what
21 the differences are, not that none of the models do have
22 problems. I haven't seen the data which indicates that
23 they do or do not, and it's that uncertainty for existing
24 models, and future models, that remains.
25 MR. PETROLATI: So, you're still uncertain, at
26 this time, whether or not you're even going to be effected
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1 to a great extent?
2 MR. WALSH: Well, I'm not sure that I understand
3 how you mean "effected"?
4 MR. PETROLATI: Well, you're proposing that we
5 adopt 1982 without any information that you're even going to
6 be effected by the 1980 promulgation.
7 MR. WALSH: Okay. I think the problem that you
8 brought out is that, at the present time, we're finalizing
9 our — we will have finalized our 1980 model configuration
10 by the end of this year. We would like to see the regulation
11 implemented on a model year basis rather than a calendar
12 year basis, because it makes it easier for us to plan our
13 products on a model year basis.
14 Unless the regulations — or even if the
15 regulations are promulgated very shortly, there might be
16 some lead time problems involved in changing 1980 models
17 to insure compliance with the proposed regulations.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Let me clarify that, please.
19 We proposed a certain amount of specified lead time in our
20 studies on which are predicated the availability of
21 technology, and the costs of applying that technology.
22 The lead time shown would be provided. Therefore,
23 the date that we have proposed the regulations go into
2' effect, depend to a substantial degree on when the final
25 regulations are issued.
2® If there has been a slippage, as indeed -- if
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1 there continues to be a slippage, as indeed there has already
2 been, from our anticipated date, we would propose the rules
3 and issue them in final . . .
4 (Whereupon, Mr. Edwards returned
5 to the hearing panel.)
6 ... we would provide a month-for-month slippage in the
7 effective date as well, so you will see no constriction of
8 the effective dates. The same relative lead time would be
9 there based on the date on which the final rules are
10 issued.
11 MR. PETROLATI: John, on Page 12, to bring up
12 one of the problems that I envision with the labeling
13 requirement at the ninetieth percentile level, in that the
14 exhaust system manufacturer may test using EPA acceleration
15 test, and consequently not meet the labeled stationary
16 value, and may be cited on the road.
17 How does MIC handle this in MIC's program?
18 MR. WALSH: Okay. You make me take off my
19 Suzuki hat and put on my MIC hat, and I'll answer it on
20 that basis, because of my work in the MIC Technical
21 Committee.
22 The MIC program specifies that the after-market
23 manufacturer can either meet the stationary level which
24 the manufacturer has determined for the standard exhaust
25 system, or can meet the acceleration level. Okay. And
26 then, if he chooses the latter option, he then determines
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1 his own stationary level for reporting, along wit1i the
2 acceleration report for that exhaust system.
3 MR. PETROLATI: In other words, the in-use
4 enforcement official would have both his acceleration
5 number, which he tested to, and the stationary number that
5 the after-market exhaust system manufacturer told him was
7 good for his exhaust system.
8 In other words, it's more or less predicated on
9 the after-market exhaust system manufacturer sypplying a
10 good number, rather than having to meet a number.
11 MR. WALSH: The after-market manufacturer would
12 have to meet the acceleration number, and then, after he
13 determines his compliance on that basis, he then determines
14 what the stationary sound level number for that motorcycle
15 exhaust system combination is, and-submits that for
16 enforcement.
17 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. So, he is generating his
18 own enforcement number?
19 MR. WALSH: Yes.
20 MR. PETROLATI: Okay.
21 As Rich was, I was a little unsure of the fifty
22 percentile level that you recommend. How would the after-
23 market exhaust system manufacturer use this fiftieth
24 percentile level?
25 MR. WALSH: If the original equipment manufacturer
26 had determined that — had determined the fiftieth percentile
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1 value for his exhaust system/motorcycle combination, and
2 then labeled that either on the exhaust system or on some
3 other label, or in a written submission, then the after-
4 market manufacturer can use that as his design goal.
5 He knows that if want to meet the label value
g that the OEM is meeting, that he has to design his products
7 to that same fiftieth percentile level.
8 MR. PETROLATI: I guess what you're saying, then,
9 for all practical purposes, not only does he have to meet
10 the original equipment level, but instead of meeting the
11 ninetieth percentile which we are now requiring, that he's
12 going to meet a much lower percentile level, such as fifty
13 per cent, so what you're recommending, actually, is a more
14 stringent requirement to the after-market exhaust system
15 manufacturer.
16 MR. WALSH: I think not. Under the current
17 proposal, if the after-market manufacturer chooses to use
18 a stationary value as his guideline, he must insure, himself,
19 that all of his production will be under that ninetieth
20 percentile value for the OEM, so that he does not fail a
21 stationary SEA.
22 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, it's ninety per cent
23 rather than all, but you're right, so far.
24 MR. WALSH: And an SEA with an AQL of ten per
25 cent, and that, therefore, basically, unless he has a lot
26 tighter quality control, he is going to be designed
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1 approximately to the same fiftieth percentile value with
2 the OEM so that he can get approximately the same ninetieth
3 percentile value with the OEM, and similarly, under what
4 we suggest, we supply information with our fiftieth
5 percentile value so that he can use it with his fiftieth
6 percentile value.
7 MR. PETROLATI: And what percentages of his
8 production now has to meet that fiftieth percentile, only
9 fifty per cent?
10 MR. WALSH: No. Under — and then the label
11 values would be fiftieth percentile values plus a fixed
12 tolerance.
13 MR. PETROLATI: Supplied by who?
14 MR. WALSH: Determined by EPA as the appropriate
15 tolerance based on scattered test-to-test product-to-
16 product.
17 MR. PETROLATI: Across the whole industry line,
18 or model specific?
19 MR. WALSH: Across the industry line.
20 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. I guess we haven't seen
21 any data along these lines that supports your recommended
22 approach; consequently, if you could supply us the data
23 that shows this approach is feasible, specifically, the
24 setting of a tolerance across industrywide rather than
25 model specific, we would greatly appreciate that.
26 MR. WALSH: Okay.
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1 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, one comment. Again, it's
2 probably due to the complexity of the regulation, but you
3 state in here that the manufacturer is required only to
4 label at the ninetieth percentile for labeling verification,
5 but when EPA requires a selective enforcement auditing be
6 conducted for label correctness, if you will — that is, all
7 the models are required to meet that specific label value —
8 that's incorrect. Only ninety per cent of the models are
9 required to meet that specific value.
10 In other words, we're testing to ninetieth
11 percentile.
12 Subsequently, the test plan allows that a certain
13 percentage must be over the ninetieth percentile requirement.
14 MR. WALSH: Our concern was that the label
15 verification program would require that at least ten per
16 cent of the exhaust systems exceeded the label value to
17 insure that the label value was, indeed, approximately a
18 ninetieth percentile value, while at the same time, if we
19 had to do a stationary, a situation could come up where an
20 SEA to a stationary test would require that it meet the
21 sampling plan with an AQL of ten per cent, and that in some
22 instances those might be inconsistent, and we're wondering
23 if you had some data to show that that couldn't happen.
2^ MR. PETROLATI: You may be referring to the
25 wrong sampling plan. There is a specific sampling plan,
26 in particular, for the labeling requirement under SEA.
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1 There is no AQL, but there is a requirement that a certain
2 percentage must be mover, and a certain percentage must be
3 below, the labeled value.
4 MR. WALSH: Right. And, we were not sure that
5 there was no possibility that we could not pass one and
6 fail the other, or fail one and pass the other.
7 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. I guess I'm a little
8 confused . . .
9 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yeah, we'll take a look at that.
10 Perhaps we can talk privately to you, John, and we will look
11 at that fifty percentile, plus.
12 MR. WALSH: Yes, I understand.
13 MR. PETROLATI: John, I guess you stated that,
14 as far as you know, there is no degradation to the motorcycle
15 itself. If there is a case where there could be degradation,
16 could you single out one component that would most likely
17 degrade over other components of the motorcycle?
18 MR. WALSH: Let me ask Mr. Hirano that question.
19 (Whereupon, there was a discussion
20 between the witness and Mr. Hirano, off
21 the record.)
22 Mr. Hirano informs me there is no way — he's not
23 familiar with any components which deteriorate significantly
24 any differently than others, that sometimes, if there is a
25 degradation, it's one component, and sometimes it's another,
26 and that there is no predictable trend.
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1 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, John, thank you very much.
2 MR. KOZLOWSKI: John, we saved the best questions
3 for last. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Walsh, in your statement
5 you have said that Suzuki fully supports an 83 decibel
6 regulation for street motorcycles or replacement exhaust
7 systems. You further state that at such a level, motorcycles
8 would be nearly as quiet as automobiles in normal operation,
9 and the cost burden borne by manufacturers and consumers
10 would be comparable to the burdens imposed by the EPA
11 medium and heavy truck regulation.
12 Understanding your response earlier, Mr. Walsh,
13 I would ask, what is the burden imposed on Suzuki to meet
14 the 83 decibel standard?
15 MR. WALSH: I think EPA's data shows that there
16 is a twelve million dollar per year annualized cost for the
17 83 dB regulation for street motorcycles, and the cost on us
18 would be the administrative cost of complying, plus any
19 additional cost which we might face if some of our models
20 must be modified, in some way, to meet this regulation.
21 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: That's my question. Assuming
22 that there is no administrative cost, as indeed there
23 would be miniscule for a company such as Suzuki, if you
24 didn't have to do anything to your motorcycles in order to
25 comply.
2" My question is, to you, sir, what is the
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1 requirement on Suzuki? What do you have to do to meet an
2 83 decibel standard today?
3 MR. WALSH: I believe our engineering staff is
4 analyzing those comments -- those questions — more fully,
5 and we will supply the details of that with our written
6 submission.
7 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, I appreciate your response
8 sir. You are currently complying with the California
9 standards?
10 MR. WALSH: Yes, we are.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: You are complying with the
12 Oregon standards?
13 MR. WALSH: Yes, we are.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you see these standards at
15 83 decibels being more stringent than those?
16 MR. WALSH: I am not sure that we have studied
17 the ten per cent AQL SEA plan in conjunction with the
18 product variability of our own product line enough, at this
19 point, to determine whether this plan, the EPA proposal,
20 is, in fact -- how it exactly compares with the California
21 and Oregon requirements.
22 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, I would suggest, sir,
23 that perhaps the statement is somewhat premature, then, on
24 the part of Suzuki, if you don't have the data yet. Yet,
25 we're making a statement virtually as fact in here, and if
26 we refer to Suzuki specifically, in fact you do not yet know
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1 what the cost burden would be on Suzuki, and you do not yet
2 know what you would have to do to comply with these
3 standards. Is that a fair statement?
4 MR. WALSH: Excuse me for a moment.
5 Mr. Thomas, as we are gathering our data on
6 specific impacts model by model of the proposal, we have to
7 use EPA's data as far as what the administrative costs and
8 the general overall impact on the manufacturers will be,
9 and that's the basis for those comments right there.
10 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Very good, Mr. Walsh. I
11 appreciate that. Thank you very much.
12 If that is, in fact, the basis for your comments,
13 I would suggest, sir, that there is virtually no cost on
14 Suzuki in complying with these regulations of 83 decibels.
15 MR. WALSH: We would certainly be happy if that
16 were the case.
17 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I want to see you show us that
18 that is not the case, Mr. Walsh, and that's what I don't
19 believe, and I would suggest, sir, that you are using EPA's
20 data, I am telling you that our data says to you — our
21 data says to you — that there is virtually no cost on
22 Suzuki to comply with these regulations.
23 Now, if you have data developed by Suzuki, that
24 we would be pretty happy to receive, and it would certainly
25 change the inferences that I have given here, but if you're
26 using our data, I see virtually no cost on Suzuki to comply
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1 with an 83 decibel standard.
2 MR. WALSH: I'm sure that our dealers and
3 customers would be very happy if that were the case.
4 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I want you to show me that
5 that's not the case, sir. That is what we are asking Suzuki
6 to do. I would suggest that the difficulties that the
7 American government has had with the automobile industry
g would be very, very troublesome to all of us if we walk into
9 that same situation with the motorcycle industry, and that
10 is, veracity is most important here, sir, that we know what
11 we are talking about.
12 If you're using our data, we think we know. If
13 you dispute that data, we would be delighted to see the data
14 on which you dispute it, and then we can talk, but at this
15 point we see no cost — virtually no cost — on Suzuki to
16 meet an 83 standard.
17 MR. WALSH: To the extent that we have helped
18 EPA gather some of that data, we certainly hope that we will
19 be able to show any differences, how this regulation might
20 impact us individually.
21 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, thank you very much.
22 We certainly will appreciate it. Perhaps, at that point,
23 you would care to reconsider the comments that you have made
24 at this time, as proposed.
25 _ Turning to another statement that you have made
26 on Page 5 of your testimony.. You have said that, "Regulation
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1 of motorcycles to the 80 decibel level, however, would only
2 provide seven to twenty per cent additional benefit, but
3 would cost of three hundred per cent more. Such a strategy
4 would not only be much less cost effective than the 83 dB
5 level, but would burden motorcycle manufacturers five times
5 more heavily than truck manufacturers."
7 My question to you, Mr. Walsh, is, so whatl Are
g you in competition with medium and heavy truck manufacturers,
9 sir?
JO MR. WALSH: Our position on that particular point
11 is that EPA, as part of their overall strategy of reducing
12 environmental noise, should approach it in such a way that
13 the noise category — the category of the products that
14 produce noise — are treated in an equitable manner, and
15 we feel that, certainly, it would be possible to — if we
16 banned motorcycles, there would be no motorcycle noise
17 problem, but that that is not the way to handle the problem.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Has anyone suggested that we
19 are banning motorcycles here? I'm referring to your
20 statement relative to the 80 decibel level.
21 MR. WALSH: No, but the — and so, the concept
22 holds true that for any chosen regulatory level, that the
23 overall noise control effort be coordinated in such a way
24 that all of the different noise producers are doing an
25 approximately equivalent share, in reducing overall noise,
26 the overall noise problem. "
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1 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you. I understand your
2 position now. I would suggest that we're talking about
3 apples and oranges in here, and that the relationship of
4 motorcycle noise and cost relative to the cost reduction of
5 medium and heavy trucks — diesel trucks at eighty thousand
6 pounds GVWR — and the kinds of problems that they're
7 associated with getting to an 80 decibel level, are quite a
8 bit different from the problems associated with the motorcycl
9 such as Suzuki manufacturers, going to an 80 decibel level,
10 and that there is no relationship in EPA's mind with respect
11 to the cost burdens being equitable.
12 Now, if you are in competition with these other
13 organizations -- with these other products, and there could
14 be a marked shift resulting as in the manner EPA regulates
15 one product as opposed to another, then I think we have a
16 fair point for further discussion, but I think your
17 comparison using the truck cost, sir, is not really relevant
to what we are discussing here.
MR. WALSH: I think that we need to consider that
20 there is some way that we need to handle -- get a handle
on the whole problem, and that is, we could quiet trucks a
lot more than we could quiet motorcycles, or we can quiet
motorcycles a lot more than we can quiet trucks.
. The aim, hopefully, of all of this is not to put
25 anybody out of business, or not to force uneven shares of
the burden on any particular vehicle type, to the extent
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1 that trucks and motorcycles share the roadways in a large
2 part of America, the impacts are felt together, and to the
3 extent that motorcycles are not used.
4 Motorcycles are found in some areas where trucks
5 are not. In there, the impacts have -10 be assessed.
.6 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I'm very pleased that you
7 noticed that latter point. We would agree that there are a
8 great many places where you will find motorcycles that you
9 will not find trucks. I would suggest that there are not
10 too many places that you're going to find trucks where you
11 won't find motorcycles, at least capable of operating.
12 Thank you. I hope you will further consider the
13 questions of the statements that you are making to the
14 government on the costs to Suzuki. We are looking to you,
15 please, to develop your own data, and your own information,
16 in order to, hopefully, educate us.
17 We understand the regurgitation of the data that
18 we have provided is. perhaps, appropriate, until you have
19 done that.
20 What we're seeking, of course, from a company as
21 prestigious as Suzuki, as knowledgeable as we know you to
22 be, we wo-ld hope to see hard data, and very hard cost
23 economic information provided to us. I am sure you can do
24 that.
25 MR. WALSH: I am sure we will also.
26 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Any other questions?
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1 • MR. EDWARDS: I neglected one thing.
2 Mr. Walsh, in your written testimony, as I did
3 with Mr. Davidson, could I direct your attention to certain
4 areas where EPA has specifically requested comments.
5 I know you suggested use of the J-331a test, but
6 in the eventuality that is not used, will you please direct
7 your attention to the technical details of the proposed
8 procedure, and any possible improvement that you might suggest
9 there.
*
10 Another is, the tachometer specification. That
11 is ...
12 MR. WALSH: Yes, we're aware of all the specific
13 requests, and we're working on answers to them.
14 MR. EDWARDS: Okay; fine. Thank you very much.
15 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Walsh, we want
16 to thank you for coming down here and enduring our cross-
17 examination. This is not an adversary forum, believe me.
18 We're looking for information.
19 We thank you for coining, and thank Mr. Nakamura
20 and Mr. Hirano for helping you, and thank Suzuki for making
-_21_ testimony^here..__. _._ ..._-^-_-._.. ,. . . . —_^-... ..
22 MR. WALSH: Thank you.
23 ACTING CHAIRMAN KOZLOWSKI: At this time, we
24 would like to break for an hour. We will come back at
25 2:30.
26 Thank you all.
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1 . (Whereupon, the proceedings were
2 in luncheon recess from 1:25 o'clock,
3 p.m. until 2:35 o'clock, p.m.)
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1 • PROCEEDINGS
2
3 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We will reconvene, please.
4 Our next speaker is Mr. Karl Pearsons.
5 KARL S. PEARSONS
6 My name is Karl Pearsons, and I work for the
7 firm of Bolt Beranek and Newman Incorporated, but I am here
8 as an individual and: not representing that company. My work
9 at the firm is involved in psychoacoustics, the Manager of
10 the Psychoaooustics Department, at the Canoga Branch of Bolt
11 Beranek and Newman.
12 I would like to go over today just a few items
13 about the general effects of noise on people. Noise can do
14 many things. It can cause hearing damage, it can interfere
15 with speech1, it can create some annoyance of distraction,
16 it can interfere with sleep, it can do a lot of other things
17 too, and it is claimed to do many other things, such as,
18 effect your cardiovascular system, create other physiological
19 effects, but the ones that the most is known about are the
20 ones I mentioned first.
,21 That is not to say that these others-don't exist.-
22 They may well. But, certainly not as much is known about
23 that, and the general feeling is that if you can quiet noise
24 to a point where none of these other factors are influenced,
25 you probably are not going to bother people in terms of
26 cardiovasculart. effects, etcetera.
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1 Studies in all these areas are still goiigon.
2 Let me say that there are no magic numbers, there are no
3 numbers below which nothing occurs, but it's a continuum.
4 The more noise you have, the more speech interference you
5 get, the more noise you have, the more interference with
6 sleep, or the larger percentage of people that have their
7 sleep interfered with.
8 There are no magic numbers again below which you
9 don't get any of these effects.
10 Now, the first one that I mentioned is damage to
11 hearing. For the most part, as far as the community is
12 concerned, motorcycles don't create any damage to hearing.
13 There's the possibility that the rider of'the motorcycle
14 may have his hearing impaired, but as far as the people —
15 other people that are listening to the motorcycle noise —
16 their hearing should not be affected.
17 Speech interference occurs in many ways. One is
18 that noise can interfere with reception of radio and
19 television, can interfere with using the telephone, can
20 interfere with face-to-face communications.
21 Our firm has been recently_involved in_astudy_^
22 measuring speech levels. In general, the findings suggest
23 that people speak a little quieter than what is in the
24 literature before. In other words, the levels that have
25 been reported before for normal speech are equivalent to
26 about 62 dB(A). We found that most people in their homes,
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1 on average, speak around 55 dB(A).
2 It was interesting that we had people come into
3 our laboratory and speak -- we told them to speak at a
4 normal level, and they read a prepared passage which had all
5 the sounds of the English language. However, before we had
6 them read this,xwe engaged them in conversation. Now, this
7 was a very quiet room that they were in, but it was
8 interesting to note that the levels when we were just
9 conversing with them were about 5 dB below what they
10 considered to be normal conversation; in other words, when
11 they read the passage in a normal — what they considered
12 a normal -- tone of voice.
13 I am bringing all this up because in the background
14 information for the regulation, some effort was made to
15 determine the effects that the motorcycles would have on
16 speech — speech interference; and the levels that were used
17 were higher than the ones that we found in the — when we
18 made measurements in the home.
19 I should add, however, that as the background
20 noise increases, people automatically raise their voice.
21 In general; as the background increases by 10 dB, people - -
22 raise their voice about 6 dB, so they are always --as the
23 noise level goes up and up, they are always slipping a little
24 behind in terms of the intelligibility;when they are speaking
25 with someone else the other person may miss a few words and
26 as the noise level goes up and they continue to raise their
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1 voice they will miss more and more words because they are
2 never keeping up with the noise.
3 The other thing that should be mentioned is that
4 certainly everybody doesn't speak at the same level. There
5 is variability among people. Some people may not be as
g familiar with the language which necessitates a higher
7 speech level perhaps or at least a greater difference between
3 the speech level and the background level.
9 Also the hard of hearing need a little bit more
10 speech-to-noise ratio, if you will.
11 So all of these things will influence any impact
12 that you make regarding speech.
13 Certainly more work has to be done in this area
14 especially as the facts of time varying noise and also the
15 work that has been done in the past has been done using
16 steady noise and such things as individual event such as
17 motorcycle passbys are of the time varying nature.
18 Another aspect of noise I mentioned before is
19 annoyance. Some people may think that annoyance is kind of
20 one of those trivial things that really isn't a problem
21 and-1 think in that sense the term annoyance may be _
22 somewhat misleading. But if people are annoyed enough, and
23 I only know this — I don't know this from direct experience
24 but if they're annoyed enough then perhaps the stress that's
25 created by annoyance can create some other problems. Maybe
26 that indeed is the thing that creates some of the
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1 cardiovascular things, constrictions that I mentioned earlier
2 It certainly is difficult to establish any kind
3 of an absolute in the annoyance scale. Most of the research
4 that's been done has dealt with relative annoyance. How
5 annoying is one sound versus another.
6 There have been category scale tests or adjective
7 scales where people had to rate different sounds on scales
8 varying from very annoying to very pleasant. Other scales
9 included acceptability. Still others included loudness.
10 And in one study it appeared that even levels around 80 dB
11 were judged to be noisy or annoying and these were for
12 individual events. However the test included levels of
13 noises up to a hundred dB.
14 When you run a test like this you do get certain .
15 biases if you present subjects with sounds ranging say from
16 80 to 100. Certainly the 80 dB sounds are not as annoying
17 or as bothersome as the 100 dB sounds and people tend to
18 anchor somewhat -- again I'm bringing this up just to show
19 some of the difficulties that are associated with coming up
20 with some kind of an absolute scale of annoyance.
21 Noise can also affect people's-sleep and there's
22 a'wide range of levels which affect people's sleep. Levels
23 of 35 dB may wake some people up. Levels of 70 dB may not
24 wake up some other people.
25 We are currently conducting a study not directly
26 related to motorcycle noise but to noises in general and
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1 their effects on people's awakenings and it's too premature
2 to say anything now but we certainly have observed that
3 ther e is a tremendous range in the levels which do wake
4 people up.
5 As for motorcycle noise in particular first I
6 would like to say in iny personal experience that there seem
7 to be more quiet motorcycles these days than there did, say,
8 ten years ago. I don't think that every motorcycle I have
9 heard is acceptable, at least in my framework, but I do
10 think there are more that are quiet now than there were in
11 the past.
12 Surveys — social surveys -- attitudinal surveys -
13 indicate that motorcycles are more annoying than other kinds
14 of sounds at the same level, and spreads of as great as, say,
15 12 dB have been observed, not between motorcycles and other
16 sounds but between the most acceptable sound at a given level
17 and the least acceptable sound at a given level.
.18 - -Also laboratory tests indicate that some sounds
19 of the same loudness are less acceptable than others.:
20 Recent tests that have been performed on_some helicopter
-21 noise indicate, that maybe it's the repetition rate that .. _ _ .
22 is more annoying and this may be related to motorcycle noise.
23 Again, we have not done any tests on that. That's 'an
24 hypothesis to perhaps explain why people judge motorcycle
25 noise as being more noise than other kinds of things. Also
26 in terms of noise detectability may really play some part
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1 and- this may be true in particular in the off-road motorcycle
2 The reason that I mention this is that another
3 study that was conducted concerning footfalls in apartments
4 indicated that if you could hear it, it was annoying. Now
5 I'm not necessarily saying that that is true of motorcycles
g but at least it should provide some food for thought on the
7 motorcycle noise problem.
8 That's the end of my statement. If there are
9 any questions I would be glad to answer them.
10 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you, Mr. Pearsons. I
11 think we have several questions that we would like to pose
12 to you. We have not had, I believe, any other bioacoustician
13 or those who are knowledgeable in psychoacoustics, speak
14" before us yet.
15 I would like to pose one question to you now:
16 It's been suggested by at least one person speaking before
17 us that one of the reasons that motorcycle noise is reported
18 to be as annoying as it is is because people — some people -
19 relate motorcyclists to the noise, and there is a bias
20 against the motorcyclists, and therefore once they hear the
21 noise and they can relate it to the product, and the product
22 relates to the user of the product -- the motorcyclists —
23 the bias is established there, and they suggested that one
24 of the things we should do is to endeavor to determine what
25 percentage, in fact, this is occurring, or use some other
26 mechanism to discreetly and more accurately identify the
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1 true noise impact or effect.
2 Can you comment on this, and whether or not there
3 would be any way, in your opinion, as one who has worked in
4 this field personally for some time, you know, how one might
5 go about doing it?
6 MR. PEARSONS: Well, it certainly is a possibility
7 and one of the tests that I mentioned suggests that the
8 meaning of the sound may convey, may influence people's
9 acceptability of that sound.
10 I didn't go into detail but there was one study,
11 and I don't remember exactly the types of sounds, but if
12 the public, and this was in a social survey, the public felt
13 that the vehicles making the noise were necessary such as
14 maybe a fire engine or an ambulance, if they felt that those
15 uses were necessary they didn't judge them as harshly, if
16 you will, as they did the sounds that came from some vehicle
17 they didn't feel was necessary.
18 I don't believe motorcycles were in that but
19 this could be again an effect that arises from the meaning
20 which the sound conveys or the origin of the sound be it a
21 person that didn't really need to ride the motorcycle versus
22 an ambulance which really had to go down and make all those
23 noises.
24 As far as determining what percentage of the
25 people, or the response to this, were due to a negative
26 effect against motorcycles versus just a negative effect
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1 against noise per se. I don't have any suggestions. It
2 probably could be done.
3 However, regardless if it's due to the motorcycle
4 rider, if you will, or the noise that it's creating by the
5 rider, if the public is in general disturbed, and if that
6 disturbance can be alleviated by reducing the noise, then
7 I think that should be what is done.
8 I hope that answers the question.
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: It does to the extent that you
10 have answered it, and it is certainly the best answer that
11 I could imagine could have been given under the circumstances
12 I would like to pursue if you could — perhaps not here —
13 but I would like to pursue how we might go about structuring
14 a survey to try to come up with some quantitative basis,
15 if there is, if that is possible in here, to discreetly
16 identify the noise problem as opposed to the relationship
17 between the motorcyclist perception and the noise, you know.
18 MR. PEARSONS: I would be glad to discuss that
19 at some later time. ~ :
"20 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We_would appreciate that. I
21 would like to have you do that.
22 MR. EDWARDS: Dr. Pearson, a motorcycle noise —
23 we have heard, many times in these hearings, that really
24 the problem is the modified motorcycle, the ones that are
25 really making an awful lot of noise, and EPA certainly has
26 recognized that in its analysis, but could you comment on a
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1 situation, a future situation, where all the motorcycles met
2 the current level, the one that was recommended by Suzuki
3 this morning, at 83 decibels, which means under reasonably
4 typical acceleration you would be making sound levels at
5 fifty feet of say a high 70 decibels, something like that,
6 if motorcycles and all other vehicles were quieted to this
7 extent would we still have a motor vehicle noise problem in
8 this country? It's a little difficult to answer that
9 ques tion.
10 MR. PEARSONS: In general the noise level of
11 78 dB which -- what did you say that . . .
12 MR. EDWARDS: High 70's . . .
13 MR. PEARSONS: High 70's.
14 MR. EDWARDS: ... at fifty feet.
15 MR. PEARSONS: Okay.
16 It's difficult to say that the problem would
17 completely go away, and if for no other reason than there
18 may be some particular thing about certain types of vehicles,
19 maybe like motorcycles, where the noise level of 78 is more
20 detrimental for that class of vehicle than for other
21 vehicles. - ._. - ,
22 In general I would feel that it's something in
23 that order and it would probably be okay, but I don't think
24 enough tests have been conducted at this point to completely
25 answer your question.
26 MR. EDWARDS: You indicate speech indoors was
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1 around 55 decibels.
2 MR. PEARSONS: That's right.
3 MR. EDWARDS: So, if motor vehicles were about
4 that loud, and residents were close enough to the street
5 getting the transmission noise of the vehicle into the
6 building, it is certainly possible that a 78 decibel vehicle
7 would be still causing some impact on speech? Is that
8 not correct?
9 MR. PEARSONS: Oh, certainly it would, yes.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Is it possible that people could
11 be impacted by noise and not be conscious enough to want
12 to complain about it?
13 MR. PEARSONS: It is possible in the sense that
14 they may have so many other problems that noise doesn't
15 seem to them as important. But indeed, they are impacted.
16 MR. EDWARDS: I guess I'm asking probably an
17 analogue to certain types of air pollution which you can
18 not detect. Are you always aware when you are negatively
19 being impacted by noise?
20 MR. PEARSONS: I feel in the levels we are
21 talking about, yes. If you talk about levels that are
22 higher than that sum, that can create damage to your hearing.
23 No, you're not always aware of those kinds of levels.
24 ln other words, it could create some damage to
25 your hearing and you might not be aware that it is creating
2" damage to your hearing. You might not like the^noise, but
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1 it still could be doing damage o you over and above your
2 dislike of it, if you will.
3 MR. EDWARDS: In your consideration of its impact
4 on sleep — our Health and Welfare Analysis, at least, has
5 a section that noise can change the stage of sleep -- stage
6 of sleep without your really being aware of it, so that,
7 in that case, perhaps you could be impacted by noise without
8 being generally aware of it.
9 MR. PEARSONS: I guess the only problem with
10 that -- it's an interesting thought, but — the difficulty
11 is that people are not sure that a change in sleep --
12 stage in sleep — is necessarily detrimental, . . .
13 MR. EDWARDS: I see.
14 MR. PEARSONS: . . . but you're right, you could
15 certainly have a sleep stage change. You might even have
16 some of this cardiovascular effect that I mentioned before.
17 But again, nobody know that that, indeed, is bad.
18 MR. EDWARDS: I have a final question for you:
19 Are you familiar with the sound of the two-stroke motorcycle?
20 In other words, are you familiar enough with motorcycles to
21 know what I'm talking about here?
22 MR. PEARSONS: Yes, I am.
23 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. The only standard in the
24 world thatwe"re aware of that creates a distinction between
25 two-stroke and four-stroke motorcycles to account for the
26 fact that most people consider a two-stroke motorcycle to be
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1 more irritating is Italy, which has a certain number of
2 decibels to their standard for a two-stroke motorcycle.
3 • In the state of the art, do you know of any
4 weighted scheme, or any other way that we could possibly
5 handle a distinction between two and four-stroke motorcycles,
6 if indeed that was something that we wanted to do?
7 MR. PEARSONS: I don't know of any present scheme.
8 As a matter of fact, I guess I'm — although I have heard
9 both kinds, I am not convinced that one is necessarily
10 noisier or more annoying than the other. We do hopefully
11 plan, in the very near future, to check that out though, and
12 this may be available in the next six months.
13 MR. EDWARDS: Dr. Pearson, thank you very much
14 for answering ray ques tions .
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I have one last question for
16 you: Are you familiar with EPA's recently published -- or
17 relatively recently published — document, Towards A Natural
18 Strategy for Noise Control? Have you read that document?
19 . MR. PEARSONS: I have not.
20 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: That will limit the question
21 I want to ask. But let me summarize. We heard, in recent
22 testimony given this morning by representatives of Suzuki --
23 and I believe you were present at that time — ...
24 MR. PEARSONS: Yes.
25 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: . , . they made reference to
26 that particular document, and specifically, the goals
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1 established in that document with respect to reduction of
2 noise, environmental noise, as measured the Ldn description.
3 EPA has set as its goal the reduction of Ldn 75 --
4 75 Ldn -- immediately, and reduce exposure levels to an
5 Ldn of 65 as quickly as possible, and try for an eventual
5 reduction down to Ldn 55.
7 Now, when it comes to motorcycles, there are,
g comparatively speaking, amongst surface transportation
9 systems, road systems, vehicles, relative few motorcycles,
IQ and if one looks at the motorcycle as a noise source which,
jj for example, does not necessarily produce more noise than
12 some automobiles -- and I'm not referring to modified
13 vehicles here -- the question is: Is it appropriate to
14' consider the motorcycle exclusively in the Ldn descriptor,
15 or should it be also, or in addition to, or considered, in
15 some other descriptor fashion, for example, the one which
17 takes into account the single event?
18 MR. PEARSON: I think based on some of the surveys
19 that have been conducted that suggest that motorcycles are
20 more annoying, but perhaps — and also laboratory tests
21 would suggest that to be the case -- that perhaps some other
22 measure in addition to Ldn might be appropriate, and in the
23 particular instance of motorcycle noise, yes.
24 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you have any recommendations
25 as to what that descriptor might be?
26 MR. PEARSONS: Not at this time.
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1 • CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you very much for taking
2 the time to come in and talk to us. .
3 I would like to hear from Mr. James Taylor next,
4 and following Mr. Taylor's remarks, we will hear from the
5 representatives of Kawasaki Motors Corporation.
6 . JAMES TAYLOR
7 Thank you for the opportunity of giving my thought
8 on motorcycle noise. My comments are to be considered
9 exclusively as the effect on me while in my home or back yard
10 on a typical residential street, in Garden Grove, a
11 neighboring city a quarter of a mile south of here.
12 Adult cyclists probably living within the same
13 tract have, on occasion, raced and tested their machines on
14 the street. After I flagged them down and explained the
15 noise annoyance and danger of speeding, cooperation has
16 been almost complete.
17 Some young boys, approximately fourteen to
18 eighteen years old, have been more of a problem. Their
19 excessively noisy motorcycles were used not only on the
20 street, but on their driveways and front yards. Speaking to
21 them produced only temporary and partial compliance. Their
22 parents promised cooperation, but produced little.
23 Several anonymous phone calls to the police
24 likewise were ineffective. Finally, I explained my dilemma
25 to the police chief, Frank Kessler. He sent some officers
26 out to talk to the boys. Whatever they said has been almost
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1 ninety-five per cent effective.
2 Occasionally, the boys would sneak a quick ride
3 out in back of their garages. This is certainly understandab
4 and acceptable to me.
5 Therefore, speaking strictly from an unscientific
6 off-the-wall viewpoint, excessive and unreasonable motorcycle
7 noise control appears to me to be a public relation education
8 problem with backup of sincere local control.
9 Manufacturers, dealers and governmental agencies,
10 working in concert to influence cyclists toward their
11 citizen responsibilities is a most desirable approach. Then,
12 the heavy hand of the law will only be needed for the small
13 percentage of inconsiderate violators.
14 Also, I would add my vote to consider mopeds, or
15 any engine .driven vehicle, to be considered under the noise
16 control regulations.
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Taylor, thank you very much.
19 We always like to hear individuals who come out and give us
20 their ideas on this sort of thing.
21 We've had many debates in Washington amongst our
22 own staff over the last several years as wo what really
23 should be the role of the Federal government in dealing with
24 motorcycle noise, and contrary to some perceptions that
25 others might have, there is very serious dispute amongst even
26 our own staff as to the extent to which EPA should regulate
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1 motorcycle noise.
2 Now, one side of that you have just given quite
3 well, I think, and that is, it"is more a puolic relations
4 problem, it is more a local problem, and therefore, if
5 anything, perhaps the Federal government is just going to
6 mess the thing up, it's just going to stick its oar into the
7 water here, and what really can it do. That's on perspective
8 and you've given that, perhaps, in terms of what you can do
9 locally.
10 On the other hand, I think I also hear you saying,
11 in your closing remarks, that there should be Federal
12 regulations.
13 MR. TAYLOR: Surely.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Would you, kindly, for us,
15 give us your views as to where you split these out, where
16 you think the role of the Federal government should be
17 involved in here?
18 MR. TAYLOR: I don't think we know. We feel we
19 hear the both sides, and I just wanted to present the view
20 that there are local things that are fairly successful, and
21 I would like to see the Federal government come in with more
22 of a selling spproach, somewhat as truth in advertising, I
23 thin it is, that requires various advertisers to include so
24 much comment within their advertising of the dangers of the
25 product, or the concerns that they have. I think we can
28 sell this quiet motorcycling fairly well, not a hundred per
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1 cent, but mostly.
2 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Any other questions? (No
3 response from the hearing panel.) Thank you very much, Mr.
4 Taylor.
5 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Roger Hagie, Kawaski.
7 ROGER HAGIE
g Good afternoon. I believe you all have copies of
g my statement. I am going to try to avoid reading it word
10 for word.
11 My name is Roger Hagie. I am the Legislative
12 Coordinator for Kawasaki Motors Corporation. I'm also a
13 motorcyclist, and have been for the past fourteen or fifteen
14 years, and during that time I have probably committed all
15 the noise related scenes there are, and prior to the time
16 I started riding motorcycles, I put playing cards in the
17 spokes of my bicycles, you know, so I think I have seen
18 both sides of it, and I would be pleased to, when I am done
19 here, answer questions either as the representative of
20 Kawasaki or as a motorcyclist. I think I can talk to both.
21 We also will be submitting far more substantial
22 comments of a technical nature prior to June 16th . . .
23 (inaudible) There just has not been time to prepare them
24 to present at this time, so, more technical information is
25 on its way. If you have some specific questions that you
26 would like answered from us, please let me know and I will
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try to focus on those areas when we do submit our comments.
MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Hagie, could you pull the
microphone over to you a little bit.
MR. HAGIE: Is that better?
Kawasaki Motors Corporation shares the concerns
of the Environmental Protection Agency, and the American
public, of which we are a part, with respect to the adverse
impact of noise from all sources on our health and welfare.
Of course, that's why we're all here today.
I make this full statement with the recognition
that the EPA has interpreted its authority under the Noise
Control Act to limiting, as limiting, as well as to
promulgating regulations for new products.
As a result, we have a proposed regulation to be
considered today which will have the effect of taking the
quietest motorcycles and requiring them, at significant cost
penalties, to be made even quieter, while not really
addressing those motorcycles which, by every analysis that
I'm aware of, are responsible for the noise impact which is
supposed to be eliminated.
Kawasaki believes that Federal regulation of
new motorcycle sound levels is advisable, and we particularly
support, at least in concept, those portions of the regulatior
which will aid local enforcement.
We do not, hoever, believe that this proposed
regulation, as it stands, represents the correct way to
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achieve the health and welfare benefits that ultimately are
the goal of the Noise Control Act.
There are two specific parts of the motorcycle
noise impact situation. The first, we have discussed quite
a bit here, people have talked about it, it is the impact
caused by the excessively noisy motorcycles for whatever
reason it reached that excessively noisy state, but it is
this impact that causes people to write to their congressmen,
or write to EPA, or appear at a public hearing, or to call
up the police department and to complain about somebody down
the street.
The second impact takes into consideration what
I believe some of your -- the questions that you have been
asking, and some of your analysis has taken into consideratioiji,
is the long, term impact of the motorcycle as a noise source,
assuming that sufficient quieting of all other products —
and "by all other products" I would have to assume that you
mean all the modified motorcycles as well — so, in either
case, near term impact, or impact of excessively noisy
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plays a critical role in both of these cases, and I think
that's pretty much what I want to talk about today.
Years of industry experience, and EPA's own
analysis, indicate without a doubt that illegal modifications
made by a minority of owners, such as removal of exhaust
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1 baffles, or removal of the complete exhaust system, plus
2 the noise of older vehicles, is the overwhelming cause of
3 motorcycle noise impact.
4 Since the Noise Control Act has not given EPA
5 the authority to exercise control over the noise level of
6 in-use products, EPA is going after new product regulations.
7 However, given the knowledge the knoweldge that
8 new products are not really responsible for the noise impact,
9 it is fruitless for EPA to attempt to reduce that impact
10 through new vehicle controls.
11 One effect this all may have -- I'm not an after-
12 market manufacturer, and I don't presume to speak for
13 them -- but in the case of both new vehicle manufacturers
14 and the after-market manufacturers, if a regulation is in
15 effect, and it's followed by some people and not others,
16 and if there is insufficient enforcement to provide for
17 penalties for those who do not comply, then this regulation,
18 I think is, in effect, worse than no regulation at all.
19 There are costs and problems attendant with complying xtfith
20 the regulation, and those must be added to the cost of the
21 product, and the cost of that product goes up, and if there
22 are some manufacturers who .cana through lack of enforcement
23 can continue to sell products which do not properly comply
24 with the regulation, they gain a cost benefit, and perhaps
25 a performance benefit, depending on the product.
26 The real responsibility for the enforcement of
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1 in-use motorcycle noise falls to state and local governments.
2 We are aware of the efforts by EPA to educate and motivate
3 local governments to accept the enforcement burden.
4 Unfortunately, state and local governments still strenuously
5 avoid spending any money or manpower for vehicle noise
6 enforcement. In fact, as I understand, they keep coming
7 back to EPA and asking for money.
8 A couple of examples here on my experience with
9 local enforcement, when we first met with the State of
10 Oregon several years ago to attend hearings wherein the
11 Environmental Quality Commission adopted the vehicle noise
12 limits which essentially are in effect there now, when the
13 local — this was held in Coos Bay, Oregon -- one of the
14 local sheriffs got up and testified before the Commission,
15 and said that his sheriff's department personnel had much
16 better things to do with their time than to chase after a
17 noisy motorcycle, the Environmental Quality Commission could
18 promulgate all the regulations it wanted, his people wouldn't
19 spend their time enforcing it.
20 I also remember, a couple of months ago, reading
21 a couple of newspaper articles about the Scottsdale, Arizona,
22 Police Department. They had bought a sound level meter a
23 couple of years before that, but nobody in the Department
24 knew how to use it, and it was sitting around . . .
25 (unintelligible) they weren't sure what they were doing with
26 it, and it just sat in a drawer somewhere.
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1 Lacking effective enforcement by these state and
2 local governments, the regulation of new vehicle sound
3 levels will not reduce motorcycle noise impact. Until such
4 time as effective local enforcement programs are in operation
5 throughout the United States, there will be no health and
5 welfare benefit to justify the stringent control of new
7 motorcycle sound levels.
9 And I will digress again. Kawasaki produces a
9 motorcycle for police use, and we sold a number of these
10 motorcycles to the police department in the city where I
11 used to live, a city here in Orange County, and I won't
12 mention any names, in order to do it we had to replace the
13 standard exhaust system with an after-market system, because
14 the standard .exhaust system got in the way of all the police
15 radios, and. all the equipment that they carried, so we
16 contracted out with an after-market supplier to provide
17 mufflers for these police bikes, and at the time, I believe
18 they met the 86 decibel California standard. This muffler
19 consistes of a partly absorptive and a partly restricting
20 baffling arrangement, and the baffle at this time was
21 riveted by three rivets around the back end of the pipe,
22 in the pipe, and I live about a half a block, actually eight
23 doors down from the police department in the city, and I
24 could tell when the policemen came in off their shift
25 because they had all taken the baffles out, drilled out the
26 rivets, taken the baffles out and drilled all the holes in
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the thing and they had thrown away the fiberglass, and then
put the baffle back in and secured it with sheet metal
screws. Now, I thought this had been done at the police
garage, or out behind the Winchell's, but it had been done
and I could tell because we had noise-tested these motorcycle
when we produced them and I could tell the difference in the
noise level, so if the police departments are modifying their
motorcycles for whatever reason, it's a little hard to tell
the guy on the street, "Well, your motorcycle is too loud,"
you know, "too loud, kid, so quiet it down."
Current models produced by Kawasaki meet on-road
sound levels of 83 decibels, and off-road sound levels of
86 decibels, as measured by SAE J-331a. These vehicles are,
in fact, significantly quieter than EPA's estimated current
baseline motorcycle sound levels which primarily date back
to 1975.
As a result, I believe that EPA's estimation of
current impacts due to new vehicles is overstated, and
since the baseline new vehicles are somewhat quieter than
the analysis shows, I believe that EPA's estimation of
reductions in impacts attributable to the new vehicle
controls is also overstated.
In addition, EPA's analysis shows that motorcycle
.noise impact can best be reduced through in-use enforcement
rather than through control of new vehicle sound levels.
EPA has estimated, for purposes of their
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1 background document that twelve per cent of all motorcycles
2 have been modified in such a way as to cause their noise
3 level to increase dramatically. I believe that percentage
4 was basically derived from an MIC study on after-market
5 sales, and I think you probably find that the incidence
6 of modifications have been higher than that, because, in
7 addition to modifications which are made as a result of
8 the installation of the after-market system, there are those
9 who do the hacksaw modification also, where the standard
10 exhaust system just, half of it stays on the motorcycle and
11 the other half lives in the garage.
12 EPA further estimates that just reducing this
13 percentage of loud modified motorcycles to three per cent,
14 and making no reduction in new vehicle sound levels, would
15 provide the same total reduction in motorcycle noise impact
16 as would be obtained through the proposed new vehicle
17 regulation with all of its costs.
18 Impact reductions are available through reduced
19 new vehicle sound levels, with enforcement, or through
20 enforcement alone. But who pays for the reduced noise
21 impact? With this proposed regulation of new vehicles,
22 the people who shoulder the cost, which, as EPA estimates,
23 will be considerable, are the people buying the new quiet
24 motorcycles.
25 However, if the method chosen to reduce noise
26 impact is through enforcement, the people that shoulder the
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1 cost are' those with the excessively noisy motorcycles who
2 will have to quiet them down. I submit that enforcement is
3 not only more effective, but also, more equitable.
4 I'll skip the next page, if you wish.
5 Rather than impose excessive and burdensome
6 regulations on manufacturers and purchasers of new quiet
7 motorcycles, Kawasaki suggests that EPA request the
3 necessary medications to the Noise Control Act, including
9 appropriations for state and local grants, to insure that
10 adequate enforcement capability and commitment are present
11 at the local level.
12 At the same time, establishment of sound levels
13 of 83 and 86 for on and off-road motorcycles will insure
14 that the new motorcycles are quiet.
15 Regulating new motorcycles to significantly
16 lower sound levels may, in fact, be counter-productive in
17 terms of total noise impact.
18 Attempting to produce motorcycles to EPA's
19 proposed long term new vehicle levels would result in
20 significant price, weight, styling and performance,
21 penalties. "— - —
22 Without enforcement to discourage the types of
23 owner modifications which result in very high noise levels,
24 the motorcycle owners will continue to personalize their
25 vehicles with the goals of improving performance, reducing
26 weight, and upgrading styling.
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1 Motorcycles produced at noise levels lower than
2 today's will suffer even greater incidence of owner
3 modification than the twelve per cent estimated by EPA.
4 According to EPA's own analysis, a small percentag
5 of owner modifications resulting in increased noise, is
6 sufficient to offset whatever reduction in impact is
7 projected to occur as a result of reduced new vehicle levels.
8 With this precarious balance between new vehicle
9 levels and modifications, and insufficient enforcement to
10 prevent excessive modifications, reduction of new vehicle
11 levels will not result in a quieter environment.
12 Kawasaki further maintains that the elaborate
13 production verification process, and selective enforcement
14 auditing provisions of this proposed regulation, are
15 unnecessary. The certification process proposed in these
16 regulations represents an additional unnecessary burden on
17 the motorcycle industry and EPA.
18 In lieu of the elaborate production verification
19 and other requirements, EPA could simply establish new
20 vehicle sound levels, and specify the test procedure to be
21 used, in determining compliance.
22 Occasional testing of randomly selected motorcycle;
23 obtained through dealers or private individuals will
24 identify those motorcycles which exceed the standards, and
25 enforcement action can be taken as appropriate. This method
26 is very effective because it provides a strong economic
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1 incentive for a manufacturer to insure that his vehicles
2 comply.
3 Adopting this philosophy of regulation would
4 eliminate an expensive and time consuming certification and
5 selective enforcement auditing burden on the manufacturer,
6 and significantly reduce the mountain of paperwork that
7 the proposed regulation would require the manufacturer to
8 produce, and EPA to receive, read, analyze, respond to,
9 and file somewhere.
10 One of the stated goals of President Carter's
11 administration is to reduce the cost and complexity of
12 government. This seems to be as good a place as any to
13 start.
14 Effective control of motorcycle noise is
15 possible, but not through regulations such as these, which
16 are expensive and not cost effective, because they try to
17 bring about quiet by starting at the wrong end.
18 This regulation would cause significant new
19 motorcycle price increases, and the general disruption of
20 the industry. It does not return as great a level of
21 noise reduction as effective local enforcement.
22 I hope that EPA is flexible enough to realize
23 that a method other than inflationary new product regulations
24 may be the best way to achieve an environment free from
25 noise that jeopardizes the health and welfare of the
26 American people.
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1 I would be pleased to answer any questions about
2 this, or any other matter.
3 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you, sir.
4 Is it Kawasaki's position that the U. S. EPA shoulfl
5 not issue motorcyle regulations affecting newly manufactured
6 motorcycles?
7 MR. HAGIE: No. I believe it is our position
8 that EPA should issue national regulations.
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: At what level should they be?
10 MR. HAGIE: I mentioned in here 83 and 86 for
U on-road and off-road.
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Are you familiar with the
13 Noise Control Act?
14 MR. HAGIE: Vaguely, yes, but not like a lawyer
15 would be.
16 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Let me then bring to your mind
17 here what that law requires of the EPA administrator. He
18 must first determine whether or not a product is a major
19 source of noise in the environment necessitating Federal
20 regulatory action. He must then set such noise level
21 standards as are requisite to protect the public health and
22 welfare, taking into account the availability of technology
23 and the cost of compliance.
24 Is it Kawasaki's position that technology does
25 not now exist to reduce noise levels of motorcycles below
26 83 decibels?
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1 -MR. HAGIE: No, that would not be our position.
2 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Fine. Then the next element
3 is the cost element. You referred to significant costs
4 associated with these regulations, price increases in
5 particular. Has Kawasaki determined on its own what it
5 believes those price increases will be for its product?
7 MR. HAGIE: I do not have that information
g available. That is part of the information we would hope
9 to submit in writing before June 16th.
10 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: And therefore, you are saying
11 they are significant, based on what?
12 MR. HAGIE: In a good measure, upon EPA's own
13 analysis, which, of course, was based on information which
14 we provided to them some time ago.
15 'CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Fair enough. I just wanted
16 to know who said it was significant, whether it was Kawasaki
17 saying it is significant based on its data, or whether
18 Kawasaki is saying that it is based on EPA's data?
19 MR. HAGIE: At this point, we're saying it is
20 based on EPA's data.
21 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Fair enough. Okay.
22 Why don't we just leave it to the states and get
23 the EPA out of the regulations business entirely for
24 motorcycle noise?
25 MR. HAGIE: Well, to be honest with you, from
26 our point of view, it would be easier to deal with one
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1 national regulation rather than several state regulations.
2 Very bluntly, that is one of the reasons we would like to
3 see national regulation.
4 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, I suspected that might be
5 your answer, and just so that you would likewise be familiar
6 with that, and for others who are in attendance, EPA would
7 very much like to be out of this business too, and we don't
8 like the idea at all of being used by the manufacturers to
9 set a national preemptive standard precluding state or local
10 governments from taking effective action, actions that they,
11 in their communities, think is necessary.
12 If we were to do as you suggest, all we have
13 done is the most cost ineffective thing, which would be to
14 set a national standard which effectively accomplishes
15 nothing at all.
16 Now, from my perspective, that doesn't make
17 sense for the Federal government to do something of that
18 sort. Does it make sense to you?
19 MR. HAGIE: My suggestion relative to what I
20 think EPA should do is not limited just to establishing a
21 new product regulation. I suggest that EPA, perhaps with
22 the assistance of industry, or whoever else is necessary,
23 return to Congress and request modification of the Noise
24 Control Act to provide a mechanism to insure effective local
25 enforcement, and I believe that a good deal of the testimony
26 that we've heard today, and over this past weekend, has
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I indicated that effective enforcement can help reduce the
2 motorcycle noise. I believe, personally, that that would
3 be the most cost effective way to do it.
4 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Fair enough, Mr. Hagie. I
5 can't quarrel with that approach. Are you familiar with --
g that the Congress — both houses of the United States
7 Congress — recently held hearings on the Noise Control Act?
8 MR. HAGIE: Yes, I am.
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Has Kawasaki made representation
10 to either of the major committees of those houses with
11 regard to what you are saying here?
12 MR. HAGIE: We have not.
13 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you intend to do so?
14 MR. HAGIE: I believe we will.
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Fine. At the present time,
16 we're stuck with this law.
17 MR. HAGIE: Okay.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Should we not regulate under
19 this law?
20 MR. HAGIE: I believe that the long term levels
21 which are in the proposals based on reviewing EPA's own
22 analysis, do not seem to return as great a benefit as
23 enforcement, so it is difficult for me to say, "yes,
24 regulate," "no, regulate."
25 Lacking enforcement, I don't believe that even
26 the most stringent now products standard will have the
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1 desired effect of achieving reductions in noise impacts, so
2 if enforcement is not forthcoming, a standard requiring
3 quieter new motorcycles will basically only have the effect
4 raising their prices and reducing their performance, and
5 perhaps, reducing their marketability, so there are two parts
6 to this, and I don't believe they can be separated.
7 To have enforcement without new product regulation
8 I believe would only solve part of the problem. On the
9 other hand, to have new product regulation and no enforcement
10 would similarly solve very little of the problem.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Hagie, it may be difficult
12 for some of those observing or participating in these
13 hearings sometimes to fully appreciate the fact that EPA,
14 and companies such as yours, happen to be almost in total
15 agreement on these points.
16 MR. HAGIE: Uh huh.
17 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Almost total agreement. And
18 the reason that we're very unhappy with the situation that
19 we're in, and one of the reasons we're holding these hearings
20 in Orange County, is because we see EPA getting blamed two
21 and three years from now for not having "cleaned up" the
22 motorcycle noise problem, and we don't think it can be done
23 unless there is a major attention by state and local
24 enforcement elements such as you suggest here, and such as
25 Mr. Walsh suggested earlier, and such as Mr. Davidson
26 suggested on Friday representing Harley-Davidson.
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1 ' We quite agree, and so, one of the fundamental
2 questions we have to ask of manufacturers such as yourself
3 here, maybe EPA should just get the heck out of this
4 business and not set these standards because I don't see
5 there's a winner there for anybody, except maybe the
6 manufacturer who ends up with a single national uniform
7 standard. Do you agree?
8 MR. HAGIE: I think that's a little bit of a
9 loaded question. Sure. (Laughter)
10 I think that I am aware of some motorcycles that
11 have been imported into this country during the past few
12 years which have met no noise standards and they are
13 essentially for street use. There are benefits to be
14 obtained in terms of reduced impact from the regulating new
15 motorcycles at levels that I suggested, perhaps as Mr.
16 Walsh has suggested.
17 Future consideration should not preclude lower
18 levels if it has been demonstrated that the enforcement has
19 been brought up to speed such that benefits will be obtained
20 through future reductions. I would not rule that out, and
21 I believe that our written comments will discuss that further
22 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Hagie, I think we are all
23 in agreement -- perhaps the figures we're not quite in
24 agreement on -- but we're all in agreement that the great
25 majority of America's motorcycling population are pure of
26 heart and are socially conscious beings who do not modify
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1 the muffler exhaust systems on their motorcycles, but they
2 are sensitive to this kind of a problem, and it is only in
3 a relatively small percentage of folks who are causing a
4 majority of the problem. Are we in general agreement on
5 this?
6 ' MR. HAGIE: I think we are.
7 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Therefore, if, for that great
8 majority who are not going to, in the future, modify their
9 bikes, clearly by reducing the noise levels a bit further,
10 we are going to achieve some benefits, because they are not
11 going to be modified, we are going to have quieter machines
12 in the environment. The logic seems inescapable from the
13 foregoing. Would you agree? Loaded!
14 MR. HAGIE: Also loaded. Yes, and no. (Laughter)
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: That's the kind of answers we
16 need more of around here. Okay.
17 MR. HAGIE: EPA's analysis does indicate the
18 motorcycles are a very small percentage of the total traffic
19 stream, and that unmodified motorcycles are relatively an
20 insignificant total noise source. Now, I won't get into
21 a discussion with you whether or not EPA's regulations on
22 other products were going to be effective in the future or
23 not. That is not my specialty.
24. But, given the fact that, overwhelmingly, all
25 the analyses that I have seen indicate that modified
26 motorcycles are 6 to 12 to 25 decibels louder than the
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1 standard unmodified motorcycle, and that these modifications
2 were primarily performed in defiance of existing laws and
3 regulations, and enforcement capability to prevent these
4 modifications is simply lacking, that it seems inequitable
5 to me to take the burden of reduced noise impact and place
6 it on the shoulders of the people who purchase and maintain
7 their motorcycles in a quiet condition, and leave those who
8 are modifying their motorcycles to excessively high levels,
9 just leave them to run free.
10 CHAIRMAN THOMAS : I think we would find that
11 logic hard to argue with.
12 You manufacture — I believe that you said in
13 your statement that your products are being sold here in
14' the United States, and meet an 83 decibel level. Is that
15 correct?
16 MR. HAGIE: That is according to the California
17 test procedure of the SAE J-331 procedure.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Why are they meeting an 83
19 decibel level?
20 MR. HAGIE: Because the law says so, and because
21 I believe the motorcycle market has changed.
22 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you manufacture motorcycles
23 not for the U. S. market or the California market that are
24 higher than the noise levels of the products that you are
25 selling here in California, for example?
26 MR. HAGIE: I do not believe so, but I couldn't
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1 make that as PTI authoritative answer.
2 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I would like to ask that questio
3 of Kawasaki, please, and I would request your response to
4 that in the formal record.
5 MR. HAGIE: We'll do that.
.6 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Kozlowski?
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Hagie, you admitted to having
8 been a sinner in the past, modifying your bike. I assume
9 you're repentent. But, do you still modify bikes? Did you
10 modify your bike?
11 MR. HAGIE: Well, as a matter of fact, one
12 portion of your regulation would prohibit the installation
13 of.a racing exhaust system on a street-legal or certified
14 motorcycle. Am I correct in that interpretation?
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: It depends if it exceeds the
16 standard.
17 MR. HAGIE: Well, okay. This is one that exceeds
18 the standard. Well, in fact, I just did modify my motorcycle
19 this weekend. I put a raching exhaust system on it for
20 racing on a racetrack on my motorcycle, which had started
21 out as a street bike, so yes, I am still a sinner.
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: But, with good morals. (Laughter)
23 MR. HAGIE: I didn't ride it on the street.
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. And you wouldn't ride it
*5 on the street, you say?
26 MR. HAGIE: No, I would not.
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1 -MR. KOZLOWSKI; Okay. The question I wanted to
2 ask, really -- that was the preamble, and I didn't really
3 expect you to answer that, but -- what type of person, in
4 fact, does modify his bike, in your opinion?
5 MR. HAGIE: I couldn't even begin to categorize.
6 Someone in here suggested that they were perennial sophmores.
7 Perhaps that's as a good a description as I can come up with.
8 I can not categorize. I see them from the very young to the
9 very old. I could not put a figure on that.
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Realistically speaking, with
11 even -- even with large difusions of Federal money, Federal
12 technical guidance, Federal attention to the anti-tampering,
13 the modification, the tampering problem, if you have these
14 eternal sophmores or fourteen year olds who modify their
15 bike, if the police are not intending to, in fact, ground
16 them, it appears that any anti-modification program is
17 doomed to failure, at least one might suggest that -- I
13 might suggest that.
19 In your opinion — in Kawasaki's opinion, what
20 is the prognosis for success in an anti-modification program
21 to the hard core people who modify?
22 MR. HAGIE: Well, I'm not a sociologist. I
23 suspect that there will always be a percentage who will not
24 be responsive to either emotional or intellectual persuasion,
25 and perhaps not even financial persuasion. Perhaps there
26 are a segment who will never change. I believe that probably
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1 the larger percentage of people who do not buy their
2 motorcycles in such a way as to increase the noise levels,
3 I think the majority of these people would be responsive to
4 one or the other of these pressures, emotional, intellectual
5 or financial.
6 MR. KOZLOWSKI: California has a new product
7 standard law. California has, in some areas, a fairly
8 effective anti-modification law, and a fairly effective
9 enforcement activity, certainly better than the rest of the
10 country, and perhaps better than we expect out of the rest
11 of the country.
12 California is still, as .1 recall, running about
13 fourteen per cent modification test, and they do catch the
14 people. In some cases, have some fairly effective enforcemen
15 action.
16 Some of those people go right back out on the
17 street with modifications.
18 What I am saying is, California may be a prototype
19 of the best we can achieve in any reasonable sense, and
20 still they run fourteen per cent, which isn't so far off
21 from the figures that we use, and probably not too much
22 different from the figures that we used for modification.
23 My point is, suppose that problem exists, and it
24 can't be solved. Does the EPA, then, do nothing with
25 motorcycle noise and concede that it is a state and local
26 problem, there's nothing that can be done, so go on to
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1 something else.
2 MR. HAGIE: Are you suggesting that I make EPA
3 policy decisions?
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: No, no, I'm asking for your opinioji
5 to help us ...
-6 MR. HAGIE: Yes. Well, I would hope that we . . .
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: ... we need somebody to do
8 it. (Laughter)
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: It's obvious we're not
10 competent according th these remarks we have heard.
11 MR. HAGIE: The State of California, I believe --
12 and again, I'm not trying to speak for the State of Californi
13 but I believe they have six noise teams operating throughout
14 the State of two men each. That's twelve people. I don't
15 know what the current population of the State of California
16 is, but it certainly is difficult for twelve people to
17 catch everybody.
18 If the current enforcement activity in California
19 is as good as can be expected, then I would despair for the
20 solution of the motorcycle noise problem.
21 If, however, you know — I don't know about all
22 of the cities and counties in California — I know there are
23 some who are attempting to establish noise control capability
24 If the county and city capability were increased over what
25 it is today, and if the State capability were at the same
26 level, I believe there would be a more effective enforcement;
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1 but again, I am not, you know, supposed to speak for the
2 istate or local governments.
3 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Once again, talking about
4 modification, what has, is or will, Kawasaki do with respect
5 for them to reducing modifications?
6 MR. HAGIE: We have supported the Motorcycle
7 Industry Council for several years in its efforts. Kawasaki
8 has not taken direct efforts, such as taking out ads in
9 publications saying that, "Kawasaki urges that you don't
10 modify your motorcycle."
11 In fact, under EPA's exhaust emissions regulations
12 we are prohibited from making a statement to the effect,
13 "You shall not modify your motorcycle," and because the EPA
14 regulations prohibit us from doing that, under restraint of
15 trade and' all the other implications that we have, but the
16 situation we have there, if you say, "If you use parts
17 other than our; parts, please be certain that they are
18 certified to EPA's regulations," and that's about as far
19 as we can go with that.
20 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Have you had any other kind of ant
21 modification program recognizing the general problem, the
22 social problem; have you done anything else, or do you intend
23 or would you intend to do anything else to tell people, for
24 example, that -- I don't know if this is true of Kawasaki --
25 but if you modify your system, you are not going to get the
26 same performance; i. e., that hacking — hacksawing, taking
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1 the muffler off, doesn't give you improved performance, which
2 is something that is against the Federal law to modify, and
3 then put on some sort of campaign to reduce modifications.
4 MR. HAGIE: I certainly think -- I believe that
5 we are not doing anything of that sort currently, but I
$ believe that we could, but perhaps in conjunction with other
7 industry companies, the government, the dealers, and the
8 state and local officials. Perhaps a program like that could
9 have some effect.
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Several other commentors suggested
11 that they thought it would help too. I don't know. There
12 is a hard core group out there. I don't know.
13 You indicated in your testimony that you thought
14 that our per cent modification was conservative. What do
15 you think is the real percentage of bikes being modified?
16 MR. HAGIE: I don't have that statistic. I just
17 believe that EPA's percentage was drawn from an MIC study
18 which indicated the sale of after-market systems for
19 motorcycles; and I believe, in addition to considering the
20 sale of after-market systems which increase the noise -- and
21 there are some which do not — there are modifications that
22 people make, such as cutting off the exhaust system, or
23 running a set of straight pipes obtained from some other
24 source, that would not have shown up in this particular
25 analysis, but I don't have figures on what percentage of
26 this type of modification might be.
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1 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay, but just directionally, you
2 think we're too low, because of that?
3 MR. HAGIE: Yes, that's right.
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: How much would it cost Kawasaki
5 to build a 60 decibel bike?
6 MR. HAGIE: In some of our very small motorcycles,
7 we are at that level now. by the SAE J-331a test.
8 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Let's say, bring your line down
9 below the 80 decibel.
10 MR. HAGIE: That's part of the information that I
11 hope we'll be submitting by June 16th. I do not have that
12 information now.
13 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Fine. How long will it take?
14 MR. HAGIE: To build those motorcycles?
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes, to get them on line. Will
16 you submit that too.
17 MR. HAGIE: Yes. This statement is from the
18 distributor of Kawasaki Motors Corporation. The technical
19 information will come from Kawasaki Heavy Industries, who
20 is the manufacturer of the motorcycles.
21 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay; fine. But you will us
22 what it will cost to go to 80, and then, how long it will
23 take.
24 MR. HAGIE: Yes. We will discuss cost and lead
25 times.
26 MR. KOZLOWSKI: In several sections of your
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1 testimony you talk about the administrative burden, of
2 testing costs, how much this complicated enforcement scheme
3 is going to cost, and how confusing it will be; and I want
4 to know how much testing do you think the EPA regulations
5 would require you to do -- "you" being Kawasaki?
6 • MR. HAGIE: Well, the production verification
7 test, of course, the single test of a production unit, is
8 not an excessive testing burden.
9 The labelverification and labeling testing
10 requirements have a potential for "S" selected enforcement
11 auditing. Those are what we would consider to be the
12 burdens, or the increased cost.
13 Our testing facility is relatively small, now.
14 We have one small piece of tape strip that runs down the
15 center of the factory that we use for our noise test at
16 the present time. If we have to do very large scale tests -
17 the situation a couple of years ago when we had to go
18 outside the factory and rent a piece of land --or rent the
19 use of a piece of land — that had a painted strip on it,
20 and run a noise test out there.
21 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That could be very expensive,
22 though?
23 MR. HAGIE: In Japan it can be. A strip of land
24 is very, very expensive in Japan. There's one . . .
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: How about Santa Barbara?
26 (Laughter) Well, then, it is not the product verification,
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1 it's not the required testing that's expensive, there is the
2 possibility that there may be some other testing, because
3 there is no required SEA testing. That's on the call by the
4 administrator.
5 MR. HAGIE: Yes, but as was pointed out by Suzuki,
6 there are certain costs attendant to being prepared to
7 respond, particularly to some of the time deadlines that
8 EPA specifies to respond to such an SEA test request.
9 MR. KOZLOWSKI: And what would those costs be?
10 MR. HAGIE: I don't have that information.
U MR. KOZLOWSKI: Would you submit that?
12 MR. HAGIE: Yes.
13 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Also, let me point out, as I did
14 to the representative of Suzuki, is that the Act itself
15 allows the administrator to test without limit and without
16 any special plan. What the SEA does, and the label
17 verification does, is to say, "This is the type of statistica
18 scheme we will use when we want to test for compliance," so
19 even if we deleted the SEA regulation, that doesn't mean
20 that we wouldn't ever come back and test -- require the
21 manufacturer to test. Congress specifically dealt with that
22 subject. They had intended we test/'for EPA to require
23 reasonable testing to demonstrate compliance."
24 The SEA merely lays out a statistical scheme
25 which is very efficient -- maybe complex, but even so, it
26 is still a very efficient way to test.
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1 • Record keeping also. I made the statement --
2 perhaps to put your technical comments in some perspective
3 when you do make them --we had envisioned that the record
4 keeping would be minimal, that the reporting requirements
5 would be minimal. We anticipate, for example, after you
6 get through the initial submission of describing ycur test
7 site, maintenance, instruction, anti-tampering list, that
8 you could submit a one page report for each category tested,
9 and the whole program is designed so that there would be a
10 minimal amount of PV testing. The categories would cover
11 large groups of products.
12 And so, if we missed the. boat, if we, in fact,
13 have categorized that there is extensive testing, if we
14 have specific requirements in the record keeping and
15 reporting that require extensive administrative burden,
16 let us know, okay?
17 MR. HAGIE: Yes.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I would like to comment, Mr.
19 Hagie. I have been listening to those kinds of comments on
20 the testing burden, now, for three years, from firms which
21 are now having to comply with these regulations, and their
22 perception of what was required, as presented in their
23 testimony, as opposed to what they are actually doing in
24 practice, which we now know, is night and day.
25 MR. HAGIE: If I could respond to that — and I
26 realize that you are a different branch of EPA -- but the
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1 testing, and the record keeping, and the paperwork, as we
2 expect it to be to go along with the air emission standards
3 was about one-twentieth of what it has turned out to be, and
4 I believe we're a bit gun shy.
5 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Yes, and we understand that,
6 and the official that heads the noise enforcement group, of
7 which Mr. Kozlowski is one part, also has responsibility
g for a good bit of the air emissions program, and the noise
g program is rather considerably different, we believe, from
10 much of what is required on the air emissions side, and
11 perhaps this goes to the heart of it, is that firms who have
12 had to deal with the air emissions side are kind of thinking
13 in that mind set, and in fact, what we are asking to do in
14 the noise area is rather considerably different. Perhaps,
15 in that context, you might want to, in the formal comments
16 you make, reconsider this, or consider it further.
17 MR. HAGIE: All right.
18 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That was my speech, darn it.
19 (Laughter)
20 MR. EDWARDS: If I could just put in my two cents
21 on this same issue. Maybe everybody in the panel is a little
22 bit saddlesore on that particular point. I'm>not in the
23 enforcement part of EPA so I think I can state this without
24 having anything to do with what I do.
25 I think that in the development of all the noise
26 regulations, EPA has strived mightily to keep the — I mean
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1 I'm saying this from an outsider's standpoint, really --
2 mightily to keep the testing and reporting burden down,
3 and personally I was -- I won't say this literally — I was
4 expecting people to come in and say, "By God, you've done
5 a fantastic job of keeping everything down," and here, poor
6 Rich, and Vic, get the other end.
7 Keeping the testing and reporting down, I can
8 assure you, was very much in the forethought, as people do,
9 and to write a long regulation would be very unfair and
10 onerous, if you would care to think about this for a second,
11 sometimes the way to keep testing down is to write long
12 regulations. EPA doesn't permit that. You can write very
13 shore regulations which have tremendous requirements.
14 That's just a statement by me.
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Well, we stress this point
16 once again, and the firms that I was referring to, when I
17 said I have been hearing this for three years, this has to
18 do with the noise regulations.
19 Now, I want to repeat that once again. These
20 corporations -- General Motors, Ford, others, who have
21 likewise had rather extensive experience with EPA on air
22 emissions, and so their comments were very much similar to
23 yours with respect to the noise regulations, for example,
24 on medium and heavy trucks.
25 Now, in fact, and I think that their actual
26 experience in the amount of reporting that they have had to
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1 do, and the amount of testing that they have had to do, is
2 just orders of magnitude less than what they had perhaps
3 reasonably thought they might have to do in their first
4 segments, but the practical experience that we're seeing is
5 that that amount of testing and reporting is dramatically
6 less 'than is what is actually being suggested by firms when
7 they comment before us.
8 So again, if you would review this with the
9 corporation in the submission of your comments to the formal
10 record, perhaps it would be helpful.
11 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yeah, and I'd like to finish that
12 subject, and to end my questioning, by saying that, take
13 the experiences you found in a mobile sort of side, even
14 if it is different, and then apply it to the noise, and if
15 you still see that there's some overlap, where we're overly
16 burdensome, let us know.
17 Thank you.
18 MR. PETROLATI: Could you describe what compliance
19 steps Kawasaki now takes to insure itself that it's in
20 compliance with the California requirements?
21 " MR. HAGIE: In a very general sense, we noise
22 test our motorcycle, but I don't know how many units we
23 test, or whether we test at the middle or end of production,
24 or exactly what steps we do take, but I know the factory in
25 Japan tests units, and I test units according to the same
26 test procedure over here, and we compare test results and
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1 try to iron out differences, and from that we have what we
2 believe is a fairly good picture of the noise characteristics
3 of our products.
4 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, I guess if you could provide
5 for us in writing exactly the number of tests that you
6 actually do to assure yourself of compliance with the
7 California requirements, would be helpful.
8 If enforcement at the state and local level is
9 really the answer, do you see the provivions that we have
10 included in the regulation as being helpful in enforcement
11 at the state and local level, specifically the stationary
12 level on the motorcycle, the motorcycle label, and the
13 muffler exhaust system label?
14 MR. HAGIE: Well, I said that we supported those
15 in concept", and we do, because anything that will make
16 effective enforcement easier, I believe we feel has a better
17 chance for reducing the noise problem than just about any
18 other step that can be taken.
19 There are details of those requirements which
20 i think we would take exception to. There are some things
21 which we do not believe are necessary, such things as model
22 years being stamped on the mufflers, and some of the
23 information on the labels. I do not think that type of
24 information is necessary.
25 But, stationary labeling, or providing of
2° stationary noise levels, would be some method, either on
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1 the motorcycle or through EPA for dissemination to the
2 enforcement personnel would seem to be a help in aiding
3 local enforcement. I think that is something we would
4 support.
5 MR. PETROLATI: Okay; fine. How about the
g acoustical assurance period? You had no comments on the
7 acoustical assurance period. How would that affect you in
8 trying to determine a sound degradation factor?
9 MR. HAGIE: That is information that would have
10 to come from the factory. I don't really have that. That
11 will be in writing in our comments.
12 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Thank you very much.
13 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Naveen?
14 MR. NAVEEN: I would briefly like to pursue one
15 point you raised in answering one of Mr. Kozlowski's
16 questions. You talked about — it was in response to his
17 question about, what is Kawasaki doing to spread the word,
18 telling people not to modify,— and your answer was along
19 the lines of, restraint of trade, we can't do that, EPA
20 has got some emissions regulations that might prohibit that.
21 I would like you, maybe, to clarify that, because
22 I am aware of some Federal law, not just EPA regulations —
23 EPA regulations aside -- I am aware that some Federal law
24 problems may exist if the manufacturer suggests that own
25 parts can be used, and only his parts, and I don't: know if
26 that's the kind of situation that you were referring to.
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1 I am not so sure, however, that Kawasaki couldn't
2 suggest to purchasers, somehow, that it not be modified,
3 period, without any endorsement of Kawasaki's or anybody
4 else's product.
5 MR. HAGIE: Well, you're the attorney, so you've
6 got the knowledge of Federal law. I am not an expert in
7 the air emissions area, but I believe the current situation
8 is that we are not permitted to say that a purchaser must
9 use only Kawasaki parts in replacing any of the parts of
10 his motorcycle, and I believe there are statements to the
11 effect that, do not modify your motorcycle, period, would
12 be in conflict with that type of a concept.
13 . I also believe that's in conflict with our
14 belief of what our customers want. We believe that our
15 customers "— we sell a motorcycle that is kind of a
16 middle-of-the-road vehicle. We recognize that we can't
17 produce a motorcycle like everybody wants. General Motors
18 can give you any color you want, they can give you any
19 collection of options on the thing, they can give you air
20 conditioning, they can give you a radio.
21 We produce only one model. I believe the only
22 factory option we have is the color of the paint. You can
23 have it red, or you can have it green. Once the customer
24 gets it", he wants to make it his motorcycle, and we want
25 him to make it his motorcycle. We don't want to tell him,
26 "Don't modify it."
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1 MR. NAVEEN: Okay. I guess all that I'm suggesting
2 is that there may be a conflict between two Federal laws.
3 The Noise Act says, there shall not be any tampering. I
4 think Mr. Kozlowski's question had to do with customer
5 education and not necessarily any requirement of our noise
6 regulation, and we were simply trying to inquire what you
7 and other manufacturers are doing to try to prevent what
8 we do. I think we all agree that there is a terrible problem
9 with modifications, and what role the manufacturers play,
10 the regulations aside.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Hagie, I'd like to pursue
12 that. We are very sensitive to not, either intentionally
13 or unintentionally, aggrandizing any particular organization'
14 market, and we have no intention of, in any way, of helping
15 an OEM manufacturer to further his particular share or
16 interest in the after-market.
17 Now, all good intentions from OEM manufacturers
18 aside not to have any intention of doing this, I do think
19 that this comment that you made begs the question, which is,
20 I do believe that firms such as Kawasaki can go a long way
21 towards educating, perhaps even propagandizing, the users
22 of their products not to purposely make that product
23 noisier, without in any way implying that the only way you
24 don't make it noisier is by using Kawasaki components,
25 for example.
26 I would hope that Kawasaki could find some way of
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1 getting this kind of a message across without running afoul
2 of existing national legislation, which is fully intended
3 to protect after-market manufacturers from being caught,
4 as they have in the past been, by manufacturers specifying,
5 if you do not use blank, blank, blank, then the warranty is
6 void,' that sort of thing.
7 That is what we are trying to get to here, and
8 again, I would like to ask for the record -- you may not be
9 able to provide it here -- I would like to know specifically
10 what Kawasaki has done to educate and inform its dealership,
11 and through its dealers, and by other mechanisms, the users
12 and purchasers of their products not to make those products
13 noisier.
14 Would you be able to provide us that information
15 later, sir?
16 MR. HAGIE: Yes, I will.
17 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Hagie, your statement addressed
18 a lot of general provisions of EPA's regulations, and it is
19 very helpful from that standpoint.
20 You did not go into a lot of the details that
21 you said would be forthcoming from Kawasaki Heavy Industries,
22 Limited, for submission before June 16th?
23 MR. HAGIE: That's correct.
24 . MR. EDWARDS: Okay. I won't, in that case,
25 question you about the specific aspects and take a broader
26 aspect myself, but at the end I would like to direct your
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attention to some of the very specific questions that EPA
2 asked in the preamble that I hope Kawasaki will give its
3 attention to in its written submission.
4 Just to correct, or at least make my own statement
on a couple of issues: One is on the very first page of
your statement. You indicate that EPA — your statement is
that EPA does not address the motorcycles which, by every
analysis, are responsible for the noise impact which is
supposed to be eliminated now. Perhaps I think that is
even a little bit stronger than you intended. I think the
provision of the regulations dealing with replacement
12 exhaust systems are at least an attempt to address those
13 motorcycles. Wouldn't you agree?
14- MR. HAGIE: Okay, yes. That is a portion of
15 the motorcycles that are causing the problem, but your
lg regulation does not, and of course, can not, be as constraine
17 under which you work, can not address the motorcycles currently
18 in existence which are excessively noisy, for whatever reason
19 MR. EDWARDS: Fair enough. One other point. You
20 mentioned that EPA's analysis on the sound level of motorcycles
21 dates, in some cases, back to 1975, and the conclusion to
22 be drawn is that, perhaps, quieter new motorcycles are the
23 smaller production in EPA than estimated. This may, in
24 fact, be the case.
25 I think the other side of that coin is that EPA
26 may accordingly have underestimated -- excuse me --
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1 overestimated the cost of compliance with these regulations,
2 in that current models may be a lot quieter than the data
3 base had displayed. Are you sure of that?
4 MR. HAGIE: Well, the first part was a statement,
5 "wouldn't you agree with that?" Then I'll answer, yes,
6 that is a possibility.
7 MR. EDWARDS: Like others before you described,
8 the biggest part of the problem is modified motorcycles,
9 which EPA has certainly acknowledged in its analysis, but
10 to me there's sort of two problems out there -- and I think
11 I went through this with someone before -- you have a class
12 of vehicles which might be considered modified motorcycles,
13 and you have another class of vehicles, unmodified
14 motorcycles.
15 How many — of the top of your head -- how many
16 unmodified motorcycles are there in the U. S. today?
17 MR. HAGIE: I don't know. I don't have the
18 registration figures on top of my head.
19 MR. EDWARDS: Okay, but, then do you think our
20 figures for modifications are low — twelve per cent is
21 low. You were thinking higher, maybe twenty, twenty-five
22 per cent, or something higher than that?
23 MR. HAGIE: I don't know. I -don't think there
24 would be that big a difference. I was just pointing out
25 that to the best of my understanding of your analysis, you
26 had picked up your information from the MIC survey which
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1 dealt primarily with the sale of after-market exhaust
2 systems, and some of those systems are going to be louder
3 than stock, and some are going to be quieter than stock,
4 but that survey did not address the incidence of removal of
5 baffles, or removal of silencing components from OEM
6 systems, which we all know does happen.
7 MR. EDWARDS: I understand, and I think the source
8 of EPA's estimate was slightly different, but thau's not the
9 point here. Others have told us that our number is too low,
10 and perhaps it is too low.
11 My point is that there are millions of unmodified
12 motorcycles in the country today.
13 MR. HAGIE: That's correct.
14 MR. EDWARDS: This is a class of vehicles that
15 EPA has got to come to grips with. What do we do with them?
16 Do we set an 83 decibel standard, as you have suggested, to
17 perpetuate this class of vehicles at 83 forever, or perhaps
18 as you suggested, and Mr. Walsh suggested this morning, that
19 we set it at this and look at it again eight years from now,
20 or ten years from now, something like that? I am not sure
21 that is a really acceptable solution with millions of
22 vehicles out there.
23 EPA has got to consider where we are going to go
24 in the next decade, and whether or not they need to be
25 quieted, and we have got to do that now to give the
26 manufacturers the time, or else all we are doing is shutting
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1 the states off, as Mr. Thomas indicated earlier.
2 I think the biggest concern from our standpoint
3 would be, are we going to make the problem worse if we
4 establish lower sound limits, and you alluded to that.
5 Perhaps we are making the problem worse by requiring vehicles
6 to get quieter, and perhaps increasing the tendency of
7 people to modify their motorcycles.
8 Did I state that correctly?
9 MR. HAGIE: Yes.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Are quieter motorcycles more
11 acceptable now than they were ten years ago to the motorcycli
12 MR. HAGIE: Well, there is a different type of
13 motorcyclist, perhaps. There are still motorcyclists that
14 want noisy motorcycles, and I believe today's motorcycles
15 appeal to a group of people who, perhaps, wouldn't have been
16 interested in a motorcycle ten years ago, but I can not
17 attribute that to differences in sound level. I believe
18 that there are many other factors -- sociological and
19 psychological -- which . . . (unintelligible)
20 You are asking me to make judgment on a subject
21 which I am really not familiar with, or am capable of giving
22 a proper analysis.
23 MR. EDWARDS: As a motorcyclist -- you were a
24 motorcyclist ten years ago?
25 MR. HAGIE: Yes.
26 MR. EDWARDS: Do you find your street motorcycle -•
t?
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1 you say-you had modified this, so I presume it retained the
2 83 decibel standard or something lower than that -- would
3 that have been acceptable to you ten years ago? Was it loud
4 enough? Would it have been loud enough ten years ago?
5 MR. HAGIE: It's hard for me to say. The
6 motorcycles that I had ten years ago rcere quite a bit louder
7 than the ones I have now, and I thought they were pretty
8 neat at the time. Now . . .
9 MR. EDWARDS: It's a little unfair to ask you,
10 like me, because we are ten years older. I think I would
11 really have to ask the question of somebody at the same age.
12 As was pointed out earlier, someone who is seventeen looks
13 differently at motorcycles than someone who is twenty-seven,
14 but this is the sort of thing that's on EPA's mind as we
15 are looking into the next decade.
16 Perhaps quieter motorcycles are more accessible
17 today than they were ten years ago, and perhaps motorcycles
18 ten years from now would be acceptable at even quieter sound
19 levels, and perhaps this tendency to modify may go the other
20 direction. It's at least a possibility, rather than people
21 saying, "Gee, it's quieter now. I have got to get it
22 louder to get it back to where I like it," to meet the
23 possibility that that would be more and more acceptable as
24 perhaps it's happened in the last decade.
25 I apologize. I'm making a. speech rather than
26 asking you questions on this.
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1 I do have a specific question, however: Several
2 Kawasaki models are quieter than they need to be by the
3 California standard, at least by the testing we have done,
4 and in some cases, several decibels quieter. Is this
5 correct?
6 MR. HAGIE: Yes. Our motorcycles currently
7 range -- our very small bikes are clustered around 80
8 decibels, and our larger machines run from about the low
9 80's to — we've got one that's about 82 and a fraction,
10 something like that, so most of them are two to three
11 decibels quieter than they need to be.
12 MR. EDWARDS: On the J-331a test, I believe we
13 tested a KC-1000 model, and that was in the high 70's.
14 Was this an erroneous test?
15 MR. HAGIE: I don't know. I don't believe I was
16 present at that time. It is possible. I don't have a lot
17 of — now, you said J-331?
18 MR. EDWARDS: J-331a test.
19 MR. HAGIE: That seems a little quiet, but I
20 think it is possible.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Okay.
22 MR. HAGIE: Productionwise.
23 MR. EDWARDS: I guess my question is, if Kawasaki :
24 concerned that if they make it too quiet people are going to
25 tamper with it, why do they make it quieter than the
26 standard? Why do they give that couple of decibels extra
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1 impetus for somebody for somebody to go out and buy that
2 after-market system?
3 MR. HAGIE: Well, thac's a design question, an
4 engineering question, which I can't directly answer. We do
5 try to make sure that our motorcycles are going to meet the
6 standards that we have to meet, for instance, California,
7 so, as you have pointed out, or as your regulation would
8 provide for, there is some leeway to make sure that
9 production variances do not raise the sound level wherein
10 we have a problem with compliance.
11 MR. EDWARDS: So it is — again, I'm asking you
12 for an answer from your company, and perhaps this is not
13 fair -- but you don't feel that they may have felt that it
14 was a desirable feature, something that would be attractive
15 to the motorcyclist, to get it down several levels below
16 the standard?
17 MR. HAGIE: There are a lot of design considerations
18 and that is possibly one of them, but I can't speak for the
19 company on that.
20 MR. EDWARDS: Okay; fine.
21 Again, like Mr. Walsh, if Kawasaki could specif ica].ly
22 address such questions as the emissions methodology,
23 tachometer specification, whether effective dates are more
24 conveniently applied by a model year base instead of a
25 calendar year base, and the other specific topics mentioned
26 in the preamble, we would appreciate it very much.
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1 Mr. Hagie, thank you very much for answering my
2 questions.
3 MR. HAGIE: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: You are the last manufacturer,
5 vehicle manufacturer, on the agenda today. I believe we are
6 going to hear from several more in Washington, D.C., and in
7 another week's time, but I would like to give you, Mr.
8 Hagie, an impression that I have that I hope soon to
9 communicate to the chief executive officers and the
10 presidents of every major motorcycle manufacturer who sells
11 in the United States, and I hope you will convey this to
12 your Japanese manufacturer.
13 I think you are more part of the problem than you
14 are part of the solution. The problem of noise, and these
15 regulations, and the state regulations, that you have in
16 front of you, that you're complying with now, if you had
17 expended the efforts in trying to educate, convince, coerce,
18 the purchasers and users of your products to knock off the
19 modifications, to ride these bikes where they won't impact
20 third parties adversely, I think the need for these kinds
21 of regulations as perceived by this congressional law, and
22 the state regulations you're faced with, may well have gone
23 away, and here it may be a question of corporate policy as
24 to where you put your money, and it seems to me that we
25 probably have a lot of agreement that it would be a heck of
26 a lot better for you to spend the millions of dollars that
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1 might be incrred in meeting these standards, taking a
2 fraction of that money and putting it to this kind of major
3 public policy pronouncements on the part of your company.
4 I am frankly surprised, continually, that
5 corporations who have seen this problem coming for years
6 have not made major policy decisions of that nature.
7 Now, that's a statement on my part, and I hope
8 that you will convey that to your firm, because we're going
9 to convey it formally to them, and we're saying this to the
10 Congress, and we're saying it to state governments as well.
11 Thank you very much for being with us and giving
12 us your comments. We will look forward to hearing your
13 technical comments when they come in, and I will give you
14 five minutes for rebuttal to my statement, if you would like
15 to.
16 MR. HAGIE: I'll take that five minutes, and it
17 won't take me all five minutes.
18 Personally, I agree with you, and I will convey
19 that to my corporation.
20 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you.
21 We're going to take about a ten minute break at
22 this point, please, and we would like to hear next from
23 Mr. Jerry Rothman, from Alphabets Custom West.
24 (Whereupon, the proceedings were
25 in recess from 4:10 o'clock, p.m., until
26 4:32 o'clock, p.m." Mr. Naveen did not
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1 immediately rejoin the hearing panel
2 after the recess.)
3 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We will reconvene, at this
4 point.
5 We have the following individuals scheduled to
6 apeak before the remainder of the session, and we propose
7 to call them in the following order: Mr. Rosen, who is now
8 prepared to speak. Is Mr. Wheeler here, from MCM
9 Manufacturing? I propose to call him next. (No response to
10 the call.) Mr. Runner, from SEMA; is he here? (Whereupon,
11 Mr. Runner identified himself.) Yes? Thank you. Then,
12 Mr. Grogan and Mr. Collins. And then, we'll be prepared to
13 take anyone else who would have comments that they would
care to offer us. That's our schedule.
15 We will inquire, if the time runs on, whether
16 you would prefer — those who remain in the audience --
whether you would prefer to take a food break later, or
whether you would prefer to just continue the march forward
and finish off, so we'll catch that as we get to it.
20 JERRY ROSEN
My name is Jerry Rosen. I'm here representing
Alphabets Custom West. I'm here speaking for Joe. He's
23 out of town --in Australia -- right now. He wishes to come
to Washington, B.C., and testify there. So most of what I'll
be saying today is just things I've noticed while I was
sitting in on this, and I would like to bring them up.
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1 Some of them haven1' been mentioned as much as I think they
2 should have been.
3 I am in charge of the product development at
4 Alphabets, and we have been trying for quite a while now to
5 try to keep our product, the quality product, with a low
6 noise level, and on some of them I think we've been
7 successful, and on some of them we still have work to do.
8 We have taken part in quite a lot of testing
9 that's been done by both you people and the MIC in trying
10 to get base level sound weighting sound, and everything else.
11 The MIC has proposed an 83 decibel level on a
12 static test. That I would like to go on record as supporting
13 The people in the after-market that are making exhaust
14 systems to go on to factories' motorcycles don't have the
15 assets that the factory does to use the motorcycle for all
16 the testing. It's hard for us to come by the bike unless
17 we just go out and purchase the thing, and when you're
18 carrying a product line of one hundred and forty different
19 models, it's pretty hard to have a hundred and forty
20 different motorcycles to put them on, so it makes it a
21 little difficult for us to go into a dealer and get a
22 motorcycle, and say, "We want to run an acceleration test
23 with it or dyno test." They tend to be a little leery
24 about letting us do that.
25 I feel that the static test would be a lot easier
2" to get cooperation from the dealers on to where we would
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1 just be able to run up a bike on a standing location and not
2 have anybody driving it.
3 Another problem with the driveby test, it's very
4 hard to locate an area that has an adequate amount of room
5 to do this type of a test with, as well as finding a driver
6 that can know when to turn the thing on and off at the proper
7 times, as well as not having buildings, or something else
8 that's going to give you a sound echo, in the immediate area,
9 it does create quite a few problems.
10 (Whereupon, Mr. Naveen rejoined
11 the hearing panel.)
12 We are in the process now of setting up our own
13 testing. We have purchased our own sound meter. We've got
14 a dyno that we're installing now so that we can tell what
15 kind of a difference this makes with horsepower readings as
16 various decibel levels are reached, because we try to keep
17 an optimum performance level to keep the riders happy.
18 If you just make something that merely is quiet,
19 your sales aren't all that good, so you have to try to reach
20 a happy medium there where everbody's happy, which is kind
21 of a rough job at times, particularly the Harley-Davidsons.
22 It seems that they ten to have a lot different
23 running characteristics than the Japanese multi-cylinder
24 motorcycle. It's a lot easier to quiet a multi-cylinder
25 than it is the big twin.
26 Something else that is probably going to be
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1 probably lowering a lot of manufacturers' sound levels
2 without them really going after it intentionally, I think,
3 is the new smog models that are coming out.
4 In the past, we've manufactured more of the ones
5 for optimum running. If you are going to go out and run
6 the bike hard, it is necessary to go up three or four sizes
7 on the main jet to get the bike to run nice and clean.
8 With the new ones, we're going to have to be
9 restricting the mufflers just to get the bike to run
10 correctly to where I think that's going to be a pretty
11 effective job of silencing itself.
12 But until we have the time to do the testing,
13 and to run the smog bike, nothing can be said at this time
14 about what exactly it's going to do.
15 I'd like to go on record also as saying that I
16 think the biggest problem in this country today with the
17 motorcycle noise levels creating a public nuisance is the
18 people tampering with the motorcycles, either putting on a
19 loud after-market system, or modifying the stock system, or
20 modifying the after-market system to create more noise than
21 what was originally intended.
22 • I know myself, I have had people going up and
23 down the street in front of where I live, and most of the
24 motorcycles that go up and down the street I don't find
25 annoying.
*6 The two-cycles, you will have a lot of people that
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1 take them out on the weekends and go play in the dirt,
2 which is fine, but when they're doing test driving up and i
|
3 down during the week trying to make the bike ready to go out ;
i
4 and play on the weekend, I haven't found any other motorcycle!
i
5 that I think is quite as annoying as the sound of a two-
5 cycle, especially that sound they give when they let off.
7 The four-strokes.- I think most of the bikes on
8 the market now have brought their sound levels down to an
9 adequate level. I doubt if you can find too many people that
10 would complain about the noise put out by any bike you could j
11 walk in and buy now off the showroom floor.
12 However, it seems like you are missing a lot on
13 all the old bikes if you don't have any provisions to cover
14 them, and I think that's where your greatest problem lies,
15 and I think that that's going to be something that needs to
16 be dealt with at the state and local levels, as well as
17 informing the people out there that are riding what we're
18 trying to do to bring the noise levels down to make it
19 where we don't have to drop the sound level down on the new
20 bikes other than what it already is, because I do not
21 believe it's necessary.
22 And the last thing that I'd like to touch on is
23 the labeling of the product. We have just started a
24 changeover on our product line where we are using more of
25 a universal type muffler. We've got exhaust systems for
26 multi-cylinder and twins that go into a collector, and we
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1 have one muffler that would slip on to this collector to
2 where it would cut our manufacturing costs down, but if we
3 have to carry the labeling on this thing for all the differen
4 bikes that it fits, it's going to be a really double weight,
5 and I'd like to see something worked out to where we wouldn't
6 have to put quite as much information on there. We might
7 use this one muffler on as many as six or seven different
8 motorcycles, possibly more, so if we had to list all the
9 information for each of these motorcycles, it will create
10 an undue hardship on us.
11 I believe that's basically what I wanted to
12 cover. Joe will be covering quite a bit more in Washington,
13 but we wanted to get this chance to get on record.
14 ' If you have questions, I will try to answer
15 them.
16 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Rosen, I have just a few
17 questions. I would like to repeat, or summarize, your
18 testimony as I heard it. You support the static test for
19 the after-market . . .
20 MR. ROSEN: Yes, that's right.
21 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Would you support a stationary
22 standard as opposed to the labeling concept 10?
23 MR. ROSEN: Yes, I believe I would.
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Would you support it in lieu of
25 the labeling?
26 . MR. ROSEN: Yes. When we're dealing with this
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1 exhaust system, when it is being used on an older bike, what
2 type of situation exactly is that?
3 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Older bikes, I guess, are a
4 problem.
5 MR. ROSEN: Yes, when you are in the after-market
6 making exhaust systems for them, and you . . .
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: And they end up on new bikes.
8 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Rich, could I interrupt for just
jf
10 one second.
H MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes.
12 MR. EDWARDS: Just so I understand you question.
13 When you say a "stationary standard" what test are you
14 talking about? Are you talking about the 150 test, or a
15 test with an ignition cutoff?
16 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I had just reference to the
17 general concept. You can follow me, Scott, if you want to,
18 in the testimony.
19 In your experience, can you maintain performance
20 as you make the mufflers quiet?
21 MR. ROSEN: To a certain extent, yes. Without
22 a lot more time than we have be able to put in with the
23 testing, I doubt seriously if we can get much below the 83
24 level that has been currently, you know, set up right now.
25 This is the first major sound level to me.
26 MR. KOZLOWSKI: But at least with respect to the
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1 83 level, you can tell your customers, "Listen, you can get
2 as good performance with this quiet muffler as you could if
3 you took it off an put on a straight replacement muffler."
4 MR. ROSEN: Yes.
5 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Do you think that kind of
6 information, if given to the customer, would persuade him
7 not to take off the stock, or the good replacement muffler,
8 and go with the straight one?
9 MR. ROSEN: I think with persuasion plus the law
10 leaning on him a little, yes, it would bring him around;
11 but without the enforcement leaning on him, I don't think it
12 will.
13 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Now, you make'a universal muffler,
14 is that right?
15 • MR. ROSEN: Yes.
16 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. It quiets all the bikes,
17 let's say, to the 83 level?
18 MR. ROSEN: Yes.
19 . MR. KOZLOWSKI: And the adapter really makes it
20 fit on a group of bikes?
21 MR. ROSEN: Yes.
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Is it a glass-packed muffler?
23 MR. ROSEN: Yes, it's glass-packed.
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Will that last for a year? Will
25 it retain its attenuation value for a year?
26 MR. ROSEN: Well, right now, I couldn't really
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1 say. We have a lot more testing to do. We're just trying -•
2 as soon as we get our dyno set up and are able to get into
3 our testing procedure, we're looking to completely redo the
4 core design that we're now using, so what we're doing now
5 is pretty much something that will be obsolete shortly.
6 We're looking to get into a complete no-glass system
7 whatsoever, because glass does tend to fade away after a
8 while.
9 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Well, finally, with the universal
10 muffler, we are also concerned with the number of labels on
11 a muffler. I guess one thought was that if you've got
12 enough labels around them you get more noise reduction
13 (laughter), but we would be very receptive if you would
14' tell us how we could change the labeling requirement and
15 still have an effective program so that the cop can come
16 and look and say, "Yeah, that does conform with the bike."
17 We've thought long and hard, but couldn't come
18 up with an active solution, so we would be very receptive
19 to anything to anything you could supply.
20 MR. ROSEN: Okay.
21 ...MR. KOZLOWSKI: That's all. Thank you, Mr. Rosen.
22 MR. ROSEN: All right.
23 MR. PETROLATI: You say you have a sound level
24 meter now. Have you been able to conduct any sound tests?
25
MR. ROSEN: Yes, we have done some from time to
26
time. It is our need to know on the specific application,
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1 you know, rotted out.
2 MR. PETROLATI: Are you conducting any of the
3 tests that we're talking about here, such as the SAE J-331,
4 or the MIC test? What do you use?
5 MR. ROSEN: We are doing basically the MIC
6 twenty-inch test.
7 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. As far as your system,
8 does it compare fairly well with the stock system on the
9 MIC test?
10 MR. ROSEN: Yes, it does.
11 MR. PETROLATI: All right. You are probably
12 familiar with what we are proposing, but let me run it
13 through you just to get your comments on it.
14 What we say in the after-market part of the
15 regulations is, that you do the MIC test basically, and
16 if you meet the level that the OEM level manufacturer had,
17 then you can market the system, but if you can not meet that
18 level but you can still meet the standard, then you do the
19 acceleration test and test to the standard, and then market
20 the system.
21 Do you have any problems with that type of a
22 situation?
23 MR. ROSEN: As long as we can meet the static
24 test, no. If we had to get into the acceleration test, it
25 would create a lot of problems.
26 MR. PETROLATI: Okay; fine. I guess to follow
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1 through with your problem with the universal muffler, I
2 guess it didn't sound like much of a problem with me in
3 that there's only seven models that it fits. I guess our
4 big concern with the universal muffler, it has got such
5 varied application that it fits just about everything coming
6 down the street.
7 Do you think that -- if I understand it correctly,
8 is it a problem of labeling seven different models of
9 motorcycles that, that muffler is intended for?
10 MR. ROSEN: Well, the way I have been led to
11 understand it, the labeling is going to have to be on the
12 muffler body itself.
13 MR. PETROLATI: That's correct.
14 MR. ROSEN: Okay. To date, I have only had
15 about seven different models since this is going on. We're
16 going through and redoing our whole line to use this style
17 of muffler.
18 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. So it will be equippable
19 on many more models than the seven models you're talking
20 about?
21 MR. ROSEN: Yes.
22 MR. PETROLATI: Okay; fine. Another thing to
23 point out is that, you do not have to label it according to
24 the number of models that it will actually fit on, but it
25 will have to be labeled to the number of models that you
26 test it and intend to market it for. I'm not sure if that
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change your problem to any great extent, but it is somewhat
of a clarification.
MR. ROSEN: Well, if I have to mark it for each
specific model!
MR. PETROLATI: That's correct. If you want to
mark it for every model that that muffler fits, then the
requirement is to-label and test it for all of those models;
and again, as Mr. Kozlowski stated, we are very interested
in coming up with a scheme that is much more appropriate for
the after-market industry as far as labeling, and possibly
testing, so any comments that you may have specifically on
those problems with the universal muffler, please feel free
to give it to us.
MR. ROSEN: Okay.
MR. PETROLATI: One other comment that the
Motorcycle Industry Council made for the after-market
muffler situation dealing with the universal muffler is
that the after-market manufacturer should be allowed to pick
a worst case motorcycle and demonstrate that if it complies
with that motorcycle, then it's good for all motorcycles.
Do you think, from your own standpoint, as a
manufacturer, that that is possible? Could you pick a
"worst case" and have a feeling that it will comply with
.all other motorcycles?
MR. ROSEN: If I can quiet the Harley-Davidson,
then I've got a good feeling.
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1 ' MR. PETROLATI: Okay, that's it as far as my
2 line of questions. Thank you very much, Mr. Rosen.
3 'MR. ROSEN: Okay.
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Rosen, one suggestion that
5 was made by one of the policemen i: that testified here -- I
6 don't remember which one -- was that the mufflers ought to
7 be stamped rather than have a label attached with that
8 information, that the information should be stamped to
9 identify. Does that cause you any production problems?
10 Assume we come up with a better scheme. You
11 don't have to have eighteen labels on it, but —
12 MR. ROSEN: At this time, it would be pretty
13 hard to say, but I think a label would probably work out a
14 lot better for us due to the large number of applications
15 that these will be used on.
16 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I'm not sure I understand your
17 answer. Why would a label be better because there's more
18 application?
19 MR. ROSEN: You can put on the correct label for
20 the application, ...
21 ME.. KOZLOWSKI: I understand, yes. - -----
22 MR. ROSEN: . . . and you can't put on all the
23 stamps necessary for all the different applications or the
24 whole thing would be covered with stamp marks.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I understand. Thank you.
26 MR. PETROLATI: One more question, Mr. Rosen.
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1 The only provision that we provided under the universal
2 situation is that the manufacturer could put different labels
3 on the same universal muffler. In other words, if he's
4 labeling it for twenty different motorcycles, some of the
5 mufflers to be divided up -- the universal muffler could be
6 divided up so that some mufflers will have certain motorcycle
7 on them, and other mufflers will have other motorcycles on
8 them.
9 Does that seem feasible as far as the universal
10 muffler situation is concerned? We have to -- there's a
11 lot of — there's extra labels involved, of course, but it
12 does alleviate the problem of trying to fit all these
13 motorcycle models on one muffler.
14 MR. ROSEN: Yes, it does. That would be a
15 considerable help.
16 MR. PETROLATI: Thank you very much.
17 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Rosen, before I ask you my
18 questions, we have a sort of half-statement half-question
19 from someone on the floor. It is from Mr. Alan Isely, of
20 MIC: "For the record, MIC's position is supporting a
21 stationary test at the equivalent -- at an equivalent —
22 of 83 decibels at fifty feet under acceleration, or about
23 105 dB(A) test at twenty-inches, and run the record up to
24 83 dB(A) under a static test." Would you agree it's the
25 equivalent of 83 dB(A)?
26 MR. ROSEN: Yes. I ment 105 at twenty-inches.
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1 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you. You mentioned the
2 difficulty of coming by sites for doing acceleration
3 testing, and also the difficulty of coming by motorcycles to
4 test your products on. Do you envision a situation, since
5 there are so many after-market muffler manufacturers, and
6 this would be a problem for all of them, do you envision a
7 situation that either a private firm, or some association
8 of after-market muffler manufacturers, would provide
9 services of testing, there would be one location in Southern
10 California where everybody brings their systems, not a
11 government program, but something privately run?
12 MR. ROSEN: Well, I really don't forsee such a
13 thing at the present time, no.
14 MR. EDWARDS: I guess I'm asking, could it happen,
15 not is it about to happen next year. Is it that usually
16 it would not happen?
17 MR. ROSEN: There would have to be a lot more
18 cooperation between the after-market manufacturers than
19 what we have now. I think, right now, everyone is doing
20 pretty much their own individual thing. There's been very
21 little cooperation until this noise level thing started
22 coming down.
23 MR. EDWARDS: On another line of questioning.
24 I'm in somewhat of an embarrassing position having to ask
25 you about some EPA rules. On the smog test — you were
2° talking about the new smog bike coming out -- is there
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1 anything in those rules directly applicable to motorcycle
2 muffler manufacturers other than the general prohibition
3 against tampering to cause them to exceed emission standards?
4 In other words, is there a reporting requirement
5 similar to anything that we're proposing here?
6 MR. ROSEN: No.
7 MR. EDWARDS: So, in a sense, you're sort of
8 indirectly affected. It affects you because if you build a
9 product people can tamper with it, so you have to build a
10 product to keep them from tampering with your product?
11 MR. ROSEN: Yes.
12 MR. EDWARDS: Given your concern about that, I
13 think that is very laudible. I want to ask you a question
14 about your competition. Do you know that other manufacturers
15 are paying .that kind of serious attention to the tampering
16 provisions of the Clean Air Act. that they are going out
17 and testing motorcycles on air emission -- for air emission?
18 MR. ROSEN: To my knowledge, it hasn't happened.
19 The bikes still have been a little hard to get, unless you
20 go out and purchase it.
21 MR. EDWARDS: How about in the future? We have
22 had people predict that there's going to be large scale
23 non-compliance with our regulation, even though these are
24 directly applicable. You must report to EPA. Do you
25 foresee that your competitors might similarly ignore the
26 EPA rule on tampering, and might just never bother responding
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1 to us? It is an unfair question to ask, perhaps.
2 MR. ROSEN: I don't feel that it's the motorcycle
3 exhaust manufacturers that are going to be caught by the
4 tampering problem. I think unless the motorcycle manufacturers
5 use a little common sense when they are building the exhaust
6 systems, it's the person out on the street that's going to
7 be in trouble over it.
8 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. I guess -- I guess, again,
9 this is perhaps unfair -- are your competitors enough
10 worried about smog that they are going to go out and test
11 their bikes for smog, and hence get the effect that you
12 envision, that actually these bikes are getting quieter
13 just because of the smog rules?
14 MR. ROSEN: I can't really answer.
15 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. On the subject of universal
16 mufflers, which Mr. Kozlowski and Mr. Petrolati talked
17 about -- again, I'm sure you made your position clear about
18 lower sound levels -- but given EPA might go to lower sound
19 levels than currently, do you envision the universal muffler
20 will continue to be a viable concept --• you're getting into
21 it now; others have been there for a long time -- but as
22 sound levels get lower and lower, will you, perhaps, have
23 to custom tailor mufflers to individual model applications
24 more than you are now, and hence make the universal muffler
25 more difficult?
26 MR. ROSEN: I perceive, if sound levels get lower
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1 and lower, the after-market fading right out of the picture,
2 because they don't have the money to get into the extensive
3 research programs that the factories do.
4 We don't have the money for the technicians, or
5 the equipment, or the motorcycles to use in the testing, to
.6 get into it as heavy as Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha, and all
7 the others do, so I think that would effectively shut our
8 doors should the level go below 80 at the very lowest.
9 MR. EDWARDS: I understand that. Would part of
10 the problem be that you could no longer build universal
11 mufflers, that you would be stuck in a situation where you
12 would have to custom tailor mufflers for each model?
13 MR. ROSEN: Part of the problem would be that we
14 would not be able to build mufflers what were sellable,
15 period!
16 MR. EDWARDS: That concludes my questions.
17 Thank you very much.
18 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Rosen, I only have one
19 question for you. We will talk with your colleague further,
20 in Washington, when he speaks there.
21 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Is that all?
22 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Knowing the --no, I've got one
23 for you.
24 MR. ROSEN: Okay.
25 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Knowing what little as I do
2° about the after-market muffler manufacturing industry for
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1 motorcycles, it has been alleged to me that until enforcement
2 actions are brought against manufacturers in the after-market
3 area, it would be likely that they would continue to produce
4 the product, testing or no testing, so long as they can sell
5 it.
6 ' Now, I presume that there are still those who are
7 manufacturing straight pipes today, for example.
8 MR. ROSEN: I believe there are.
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Yes. Again, these organizations
10 will not just fade away until either enforcement action is
11 brought against them, or perhaps, and I think you said this,
12 the motorcycle enthusiast starts getting rapped with
13 citations and doesn't buy anymore, but until something of
14 that nature happens, the positive reaction in the marketplace
15 or I should say, the negative reaction in the marketplace —
16 or direct enforcement action taken against the exhaust
17 muffler manufacturer, would you see any of these folks
18 fading away?
19 MR. ROSEN: As long as there's people out there
20 that want the product, I believe there will be somebody
91
Li willing to make it.
22 The company that I work for, and I believe most
23 of the other companies in the MIC, have done a great deal in
24 the last few years to "clean up your act", more or less,
25 try to get their products a lot quieter than what they were
2° in the years previously, but there's a lot of people out
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1 there that are making products for the motorcycle that are
2 not in the MIC, they are not supporting in the sound level
3 control, there's still people, like you said, making straight
4 pipes, and until there's enough pressure to put on people
5 to quit buying and using those type products, I doubt if it
6 will cease.
7 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you very much. I
8 appreciate it.
9 Mr. Tim Wheeler, please, MCM Manufacturing.
10 SAM WHEELER
11 My name is Sam Wheeler, and I'm employed by MCM
12 Manufacturing. We are probably one of the oldest after-
13 market exhaust system companies. It's been in existence
14 for over thirty-five years, and in the past we have made
15 probably extremely noisy systems of straight pipes. The
16 current philosophy now is to make legal systems, and that's
17 what we do.
18 We currently meet the 83 decibel range, and
19 because we can get motorcycles to test that are in that
20 range. To go any lower would be technically difficult for
21 me to tell you how low it could go because there isn't any
22 motorcycles that are any quieter than we make systems for.
23 I think the basic problem is — I'm a bit
24 redundant here -- but I think the whole problem is
25 enforcement on the state and local level, and until it is
26 enforced -- the regulations are enforced, whatever they may
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1 be -- you will always have a noise problem, and I think
2 that's probably the end of the story right there.
3 . We want to see the EPA regulate this noise
4 enforcement -- or set the standards, I should say -- because,
5 on a state and local level, especially in the city, the
6 individual enforcement agencies don't have the time, or
7 technology, or the ability, to set such criteria, or how to
8 really test a motorcycle for noise.
9 If they can afford to buy devices for checking
10 speed of automobiles, or to tell if you've had too much to
11 drink, I think they can probably afford to buy sound level
12 equipment, and maybe the payback isn^'t as good because there
13 aren't as many motorcycles. Okay.
14 We would be happy to meet any regulation set
15 forth by the EPA, but whatever they were, we would like to
16 see a stationary type test, as mentioned by Mr. Rosen, and
17 difficult for us and very, very expensive for us to do any
18 drive-by testing, and also, any enforcement done on a local
19 level would be a stationary, so whatever this particular
20 standard was on an enforcement level, the manufacturers
21 should be on the same test procedure.
22 We currently makes systems for about fifty'models ,
23 and to do a drive-by test, number one, getting the machines
24 is very difficult. We would probably have to buy them, and
25 also, a place to run them would be equally as difficult.
26 On the bigger machines, if we do it on a public
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1 road, we would be violating the speed limit. The stationary
2 MIC test, which is the equivalent 105 dB(A) at twenty-inches
3 is a reasonable test.
4 Now, I'll kind of cut this short because it's all
5 been covered, but on the universal mufflers, one point I'd
6 like to bring out is, before 1980, if the labeling was such
7 that any of you — I mean, universal mufflers, any system
8 labeled after that date, wouldn't fit systems, or wouldn't
9 be applicable to systems before the 1980 date.
10 In other words, if we labeled a bunch of systems
11 for '79 machines, come 1980 tney would all be obsolete, and
12 this would cause a problem with our distributors, which we
13 basically sell our system through.
14 Also, on spark arrestors, I think that in the
15 proposed rule making that they said that they were -- should
16 also be certified as a muffler, but however, spark arrestors,
17 and the ones we manufacture and have a patent for, it's
18 strictly an adapter to the muffler, and I would like to see
19 something different there.
20 Without being too redundant, that's about all I
21 can add to anybody else's comments today. If you have any
22 questions, I will be happy to try to answer them.
23 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes. Mr. Wheeler, you don't
24 have any problems without general enforcement scheme for
25 the after-market exhaust system?
26 MR. WHEELER: Well, other than the limit, it would
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1 be very difficult for us to, as far as I can see right now,
2 to do anything lower than 80 dB, because the machines that
3 we would retrofit for aren't available. It would be very
4 expensive for us to do very much development work because
5 there is so many, you know, bikes that we would wish to
6 manufacture for.
7 We currently do meet the regulation, and I
8 honestly do think that the 83 dB(A) is not a social problem.
9 MR. KOZLOWSKI: The universal mufflers that you
10 build at the 83 level from the California standard, are
11 those glass-packs?
12 MR. WHEELER: It's combination glass-pack mechanic
13 routing system inside the muffler.
14 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Will they last for a year? May
15 we have attenuation on it for a year?
16 MR. WHEELER: As far as I know, on some of the
17 machines, or at least, on some of the bikes that we have
18 tested these systems with, and the feedback we get from the
19 customers, the glass-pack does last -- the glass does last.
20 Now, this is the only stuff that we've gotten input back
21 from, you know, people who we have sold the systems to. We
22 have never run a system ourselves for a year or, you know, or
23 equivalent, I guess.
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: As far as you know, they will
25 attenuate for a year?
26 MR. WHEELER: Yes.
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1 MR. KOZLOWSKI: You, I assume, had the same
2 labeling problem as Mr. Rosen had?
3 MR. WHEELER: Correct.
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: And you will think about, or help
5 us think about that, will you know? If you have any magic
5 bullet, we would like to hear about it.
7 I'll make the same remark for the change of year
8 label. We also recognize the possibility that an exhaust
9 system may not need the change over a year even though the
10 model, the bike, there is some change, and we're not sure
11 how best to handle that either, so if you don't have any
12 recommended solution for it, please comment on it.
13 MR. WHEELER: Okay.
14 MR. PETROLATI: I'm pretty sure I just have one
15 question. In dealing with the spark arrestor situation,
16 I'm not sure if there's just been some misunderstanding.
17 Maybe we are wrong about what we're proposing.
18 The spark arrestor will be designed for a specific
19 muffler system that you produce, is that correct, or would
20 it be designed for an OEM system?
21 MR. WHEELER: Well, basically, the spark arrestor
22 is approved by the U. S. Forestry Service for a particular
23 displacement category, and it is available for anybody to
24 put it on just about anything, including automobiles.
25 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. So it is as much the same
26 situation as the universal muffler then? In other words,
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1 the application is not set by you. You sell it, and it can
2 be used for anything?
3 MR. WHEELER: Yes, basically.
4 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Do you sell a specific
5 muffler to be used in combination with your spark arrestor?
5 MR. WHEELER: No, not a specific muffler; no.
7 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Do sell a muffler — is
8 it, you know, for a Harley, or a Kawasaki?
9 MR. WHEELER: We don't make any recommendations
10 at this point.
11 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Do you envision the
12 regulations requiring you to test the spark arrestor with
13 every combination of muffler being sold? Is that the way
14 you envision it?
15 MR. WHEELER: The way I understand it, just
16 selling the spark arrestor alone, it would have to comply
17 by itself as being quiet, or, meet the standard, the noise
18 standard. That is the way I understand it.
19 MR. PETROLATI: All right. Maybe it might even
20 be drafted that way. I'm not sure. I would have to check.
21 But, if the requirement was that you would have to certify
22 to us to some extent, either by testing or some other form,
23 that the use of the spark arrestor would not increase the
24 noise level of the vehicle, would you have any problem with
25 that, specifically if we did require testing?
26 MR. WHEELER: Right. The spark arrestor, if
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anything, would decrease the noise level. However, you know,
the application is unknown to us where it would be installed,
or how it would be installed.
MR. PETROLATI: Agreed.
MR. WHEELER: That's all.
MR. PETROLATI: Okay. I think we're in agreement.
I think we can get that one worked out. The universal
muffler I still have to think about for a while. Thank you
very much.
MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Wheeler, you mentioned the
problems of going down to below 80 decibels. Do you
manufacture a replacement exhaust system for the GL-1000?
MR. WHEELER: Yes, we do.
MR. EDWARDS: Is it louder than the stock system,
the same as the stock system? How does it compare?
MR. WHEELER: It's — the GL-1000 that the system
was made for was 78 dB, but on the GL-1000, you have to
realize that it is a water cooled shaft drive motorcycle,
and it's very quiet anyway, mechanical noisewise, and
anything that -- or, there are other air cooled motorcycles,
chain drive and such -- you're looking at a total package
rather than just the muffler.
Our system was noisier, but was still quieter
than the 83 dB, but it is not as quiet as 78. We were in
the 80's on that particular motorcycle.
MR. EDWARDS: Okay. So this is the same question
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1 I asked Mr. Jardine back on Friday. Designing a muffler at
2 the let's say half-way between about 80, 80% decibels, it's
3 not virgin territory for you. You've done that sort of thing
4 before.
5 MR. WHEELER: On that ype of motorcycle.
6 MR. EDWARDS: On that type of a motorcycle, yes.
7 I asked the question from the gentleman from Alphabets:
8 What about smog controls for mo.torcycles. Is this something
9 that you are concerned about, something that you are going to
10 have to do some testing on?
11 MR. WHEELER: Yes. In order to sell systems to
12 anyone for a 1978 model, or later, we have to certify to
13 the dealer, if he installs the system, it won't alter the
14 emissions from the motorcycle. We currently don't have any
15 systems available for the '78 model year, or manufactured
16 after January 1st, because we don't know yet.
17 MR. EDWARDS: But that is something that you're
18 getting into right now?
19 MR. WHEELER: Oh, yes, we have to.
20 MR. EDWARDS: One other question, which I
21 neglected to ask the gentleman from Alphabets — if he's
22 in the audience, maybe he'll listen up: In this background
23 document and the preamble, EPA foreshadowed a possible
24 stationary test different from this twenty-inch test that
25 we've all run in the past. Perhaps you saw it, or a
26 representative from your company saw it. EPA and its
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1 contractor, McDonnell Douglas, ran this test out at
2 Huntington Beach, and it involves an ignition disabling
3 system, running the motorcycle up in neutral.
4 If you have not examined that part of our
5 regulations, we would appreciate your doing so because, at
6 this time, it looks like a very promising candidate for use
7 by the after-market, at the very least, in lieu of moving
8 vehicle testing, to show compliance with our standards.
9 If you have any comments on it right now, we
10 would like to have it; but if you don't, we would like you
11 to take a look at it.
12 MR. WHEELER: Well, briefly, I don't have any
13 practical experience in the disabling device system. It
14 appears that a retrofit-type system say, for instance, on
15 existing motorcycles, could be drawn; and also, it will be
16 more costly to enforce, I believe, to have this disabling
17 device, both when it is initially put on the machine, and
18 the extra equipment it takes at the enforcement level when
19 the guy's checking to see how noisy the system really is.
20 MR. EDWARDS: I'm talking, at least right now,
21 strictly, for EPA, testing for EPA, to allow distribution
22 in commerce by the after-market manufacturer, I'm not
23 talking about field situations now.
24 In other words, your MCM, you have a muffler
25 that you want to show that is in compliance with the
26 standards, and instead of having to run a moving test on a
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1 particular model, you would run this kind of a stationary
2 test, which we thing, at the very least, would save you a
3 lot of space if nothing else.
4 It's a question of, would your dealers go along
5 with lending you a motorcycle for that purpose? Is it a
6 convenient test for you to run? Can you figure how to
7 hook the damn thing up to a motorcycle?
8 MR. WHEELER: Well, yeah, that would be no
9 problem. I guess you're asking two things: Number one, a
10 stationary test would be the way that the thing would be
11 enforced, so that would be the way we would like to certify,
12 right? Okay. The stationary test with the ignition
13 disabling device, I have never run it, but I understand that
14 there are a few problems with it.
15 In fact, you should ask Mr. Rosen, because I
16 think he was personally involved in that, and each time the
17 test was run, I think something malfunctioned.
18 (Addressing Mr. Rosen, in the audience) Is
19 that correct?
20 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
21 MR. WHEELER: Yes. The stationary test -- I'm
22 not sure about the question exactly — but we do need the
23 stationary test over the drive-by test, if nothing else, for
24 safety reasons, especially in the dirt bike range, because
25 if you do run a motorcycle on the pavement with the dirt
26 bike tires, it's going to do one of two things, you're going '
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1 to get wheel slippages and the thing is going to stand you
2 up, or perhaps, if the EPA, or the industry, would like to
3 get the bugs out of this system that were found during that
4 testing program, maybe that's something that some or all of
5 us should do.
6 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.
7 MR. WHEELER: Some type of stationary test, I
8 believe, is needed.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Okay, Mr. Wheeler. That concludes
10 my questions. Thank you very much.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you very much, Mr.
12 Wheeler. I appreciate your coming in and talking to us this
13 afternoon. Do you have something further?
14 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I was wondering, Mr. Thomas, if
15 we might have Mr. Rosen up here so we could ask him what
16 happened.
17 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Wheeler, thank you very
18 much.
19 MR. WHEELER: Okay.
20 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We appreciate your taking the
21 time to come in. If Mr. Rosen would care to respond to
22 these questions, we would be delighted to hear from him.
23 Thank you, Mr. Rosen.
24 JERRY ROSEN
25 Every time I was involved in the ignition
26 disabling device, it had severe malfunctions, and-there was
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no consistency at all. We were at the McDonnell Douglas
facility, and we tried, on a number of occasions, to use it,
and we never did complete one full day of testing without
some kind of a bug developing: it wound't shut off at the
correct RPM, or it would shut off completely and the bike
couldn't be restarted, or it would just fail to work
altogether, so until it's proven practical to use, I can
see very little use in it.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: Other than that, were there any
problems with it! (Laughter)
MR. EDWARDS: Just for the record, perhaps you
were there during the early part of that testing program,
I don't recall, but it certainly worked on the prototype
model. We had never used a device like that before, and
I think, by the end of the program they were getting -- the
biggest problem was matching it to the motorcycle, finding
where to connect it electrically to the coils, and so forth,
but I believe — I think the people from McDonnell Doughlas
have gone -- but I believe that the device was working much
more reliably toward the end of the program than at the
beginning, but there were bugs, no question about it.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: For the record also, we were
working on it at our enforcement facility in Sandusky, and
.had better results than that.
MR. PETROLATI: It should be taken into account
that that was the first time any testing on this was done.
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1 MR. ROSEN: One thing that was brought up when we
2 were using that was the thought that the factory would make
3 test connections available so that that would be able to be
4 plugged in without having to do wiring with it or figure out
5 where to put it, and such a package like that, if it came
6 along, then it would make it a lot easier to use.
7 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you very much, Mr. Rosen.
8 MR. ROSEN: Okay.
9 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Tim Runner.
10 TIM RUNNER
11 Good late afternoon. My name is Tim Runner.
12 I am the Technical Director of SEMA, which is a Specialty
13 Equipment Manufacturers Association. SEMA represents
14 sixteen hundred manufacturers, warehouse distributors,
15 jobbers and dealers, in the specialty parts area, pluse we
16 have an enthusiast division made up of individuals who are
17 primarily automotive enthusiasts.
18 The reason we are involved in this hearing is that
19 some of our manufacturers of after-market and specialty
20 exhaust systems for automobiles are also manufacturers of
21 exhaust systems for motorcycles, plus we have the privilege
22 of some exclusive exhaust system manufacturers for motorcycle;
23 being among our membership.
24 SEMA favors reducing noise to reasonable levels.
25 SEMA has sponsored major vehicle noise testing programs.
2° The motorcycle noise problem comes primarily from the minorit
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1 group of motorcyclists who ride bikes with modified or non-
2 existent mufflers.
3 The EPA proposed regulations will punish all
4 motorcyclists in order to attempt to thwart the noisy minority
5 All motorcycle and exhaust system buyers will have to pay
6 higher prices. The majority, who are law abiding motorcyclists,
7 will be punished in an attempt to reach the noisy minority.
8 SEMA's primary interest is in the area of after-
9 market exhaust systems. We do not want to see this industry
10 severely reduced in size with the corresponding loss of jobs
11 at the factory and in the field.
12 In order to understand this industry we must
13 understand their market. Why do people buy after-market
14 exhaust systems? One, they buy it for replacement purchases,
15 and I think the after-market has the advantage of a significantly
16 lower price at the present time. Secondly, some people buy
17 for visual aesthetics. They want to achieve a unique look on
18 their motorcycles.
19 Currently, a number of people buy for performance.
20 They want an increase in horsepower and/or an increase in
21 fuel economy.
22 Last, and unf err tuna tely -- maybe not least -- we
23 also have those that buy to increase the noise of their
24 machine. This may be a desire for attention, or a need to
25 make an anti-social statement, or whatever, who knows.
26 SEMA recommends that the standards be se.t at 83
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1 decibels, or a minimum of 80 decibels, to hold down the
2 cost impact of the regulations. As EPA has pointed out very
3 well, the actual new motorcycle noise levels will be lower
4 than these stated regulations plus, in normal day-to-day
5 operation, the noise levels will be significantly lower than
6 the standards, which are measured under a severe operating
7 condition.
8 The test procedure developed by EPA seems to be
9 repeatable. It is unfortunate that a simpler, lest costly
10 procedure, can not be developed.
11 SEMA prefers the use of stationary tests for
12 determining exhaust system noise whenever possible.
13 SEMA recommends that the exhaust system manufacturers
14 be allowed to use stationary tests for certifying exhaust
15 systems. The test procedure presented in Appendix "J" seems
16 to be a usable stationary test method. "Worst case"
17 motorcycles should be selected and tested as representative
18 of universal mufflers.
19 The concept of labeling motorcycles and exhaust
20 systems seems to be a necessity. The contents of the labels
21 should be minimized.
22 • SEMA recommends that the sound values put on the
23 labels be selected at the ninety-ninth or ninety-eighth per
24 cent level, rather than the ninetieth or ninety-fifth per
25 centile low. This will reduce the possibility of local law
26 enforcement agencies picking what we've heard referred to as
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1 "fudge factors'' that are too low.
2 - The labeling of exhaust systems currently in the
3 distribution system would be very costly. Therefore,
4 labeling of exhaust systems for non-regulated motorcycles
5 should apply only to exhaust systems produced after the
6 effective date of the regulations.
7 SEMA is in favor or EPA setting realistic
8 stationary test standards, rather than allowing local
9 government to pick values. Today, the standards vary from
10 state to state, and even city to city. This has precipitated
11 selective enforcement where the officers decide whether a
12 vehicle has too loud an exhaust system when it exceeds a
13 local drive-by noise standards. Unfortunately, some of
14 these unrealistically low local standards have been
15 encouraged-by EPA personnel from regional offices. Having
16 a realistic standard at the national level should eliminate
17 these problems.
18 SEMA is concerned with the lead time allowed in
19 the proposed regulations. The after-market manufacturers
20 are faced with emissions requirements, as well as the
21 proposed noise regulations. This compounds their design
22 problems. Usually, the after-market does not have early
23 access to new models.
24 By proposing rapid reductions in noise levels
25 over five years, EPA will be adding significantly to the
26 problems of the after-market manufacturer. The rapid
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1 reductions in noise levels will precipitate rapid changes
2 in the OEM motorcycles, which, in turn, will affect the
3 after-market design efforts.
4 SEMA recommends that the SEA's be done on a single
5 sampling scheme. The stationary test per day estimates seem
6 relatively high, according to input we have received from
7 our members.
8 SEMA recommends that the after-market exhaust
9 system manufacturers be allowed to use a standard SLFDS
10 rather than having to run costly tests for each motorcycle
\\ exhaust system — and I realize that that may be an error,
12 that last statement, that that is required.
13 SEMA approves of the elimination of the SLDF
14 from the stationary test — I think the first statement would
15 only apply if the after-market manufacturer chose not to use
16 the stationary test, and I would be surprise if any of them
17 did if they have that option available.
18 SEMA recommends that the EPA prepare training
19 films and books for colleges to use in training police
20 officers, and exhaust system installers. The California
21 Highway Patrol has attempted to train its officers, and yet
22 a great deal of ignorance still exists.
23 Those are my prepared comments. I would like to
24 make one other statement about a question brought up to the
25 last two witnesses.
26 The anti-tampering provisions of the Clean Air
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1 Act will probably result in after-market manufacturers
2 testing and reporting. Memorandum 1-A is just the beginning
3 from EPA. Self-certification regulations are in the mill.
4 This means that, very likely, exhaust manufacturers will
5 have to do some form of self-testing, and self-certification,
6 and submit this data to EPA. I do not believe it will be
7 anywhere as near as rigorous as the testing required for
8 new vehicle manufacturers, but on a proportion basis, it
9 will have significant impact on the small after-market
10 manufacturers.
11 Thank you for your attention.
12 MR. PETROLATI: Your statement that we should
13 adopt the concept to pick a. "worst case" with the universal
14 muffler, do you think the SEMA representatives, the SEMA
15 manufacturers themselves would be able to pick a worst
16 case and have assurance that it would meet on the other
17 motorcycles that they are selling that system for?
18 MR. RUNNER: Unfortunately, I'm not sure how
19 best to approach this. In the automotive realm, SEMA has
20 gone through some basic research testing programs where
21 we have been able to generate some sound levels, and some
22 sound level distributions from various vehicles, and from
23 this we might be able to infer worst case situations, or
24 at least reject highly probably worst case situations.
25 I'm not in a position at this time to state
26 whether SEMA would be able to operate within this area.
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1 Probably it would be more appropriate for tt i Motorcycle
2 Industry Council. I know they have already taken a number
3 of significant steps in the area.
4 MR. PETROLATI: Just one other thing. The "worst
5 case", does that mean to you "a" single motorcycle, or does
6 that mean a representative sample?
7 MR. RUNNER: I would like for it to mean a
8 single motorcycle, but being a 'realist, I would have to say,
9 it would be a representative sample. There probably are,
10 for a given universal system, maybe one, two or three,
11 different motorcycle configurations where you would have
12 a "worst case" potential.
13 MR. PETROLATI: Okay; fair enough. You mention
14 that the number of tests that we may require -- I think
15 you were referring to in a single day's time — the
16 manufacturer is required to conduct a selective enforcement
17 on these, may be too high.
18 Did your representative members present you
19 figures for the number of tests they couldn't comply with?
20 MR. RUNNER: I have heard a variety of numbers
21 ranging from very low figures, maybe one-third of what you
22 have stated to about two-thirds of what you have stated.
23 I am hopeful that they'll be able to respond, in writing,
24 to that.
25 My experience with these fellows indicates that
2° they do not have, typically, super sophisticated testing
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1 capabilities. They have some very bright fellows that get
2 the dynamometer and bike out there, and usually the guys
3 that are doing the design oftentimes are also changing the
4 exhaust systems, and they're usually short on manpower, and
5 it just seems to take longer. It's not done on a day-in,
6 day-out basis, so there are a certain number of start-up
7 time problems, and repetition problems, and just a number
8 of factors that influence and precipitate a lower testing
9 rate.
10 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, one other question. You
11 mention that the test in Appendix "J" seems acceptable to
12 SEMA. Is that in light of the comments that were mentioned
13 previously about some of the testing difficulties? In
14 other words, do your manufacturer representatives realize
15 that the test, at this time, is not completely developed?
16 MR. RUNNER: Yes, we realize that fully. We
17 feel that the technology exists to develop a successful
18 ignition cutoff system with a high degree of reliability.
19 That, obviously, is a prerequisite to using this procedure.
20 One of the risks you have is, your worst case is where the
21 ignition system fails to cut off, and the motorcycle engine
22 becomes a number of pieces. We obviously hope that that
23 doesn't happen because most of our manufacturers have to
24 borrow the bikes from a dealer, and the rule usually is,
25 "you break it, you bought it."
26 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. I infer from that, then,
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1 that they believe that their ability to test to a standard
2 versus to test to the OEM level, as measured with the MIC
3 test, is the better way to go?
4 MR. RUNNER: No, quite frankly, I haven't
5 discussed with them those either-or type options, and I am
6 not prepared to address that. I'll try to do that in our
7 written testimony.
8 MR. PETROLATI: Okay, very good. Thank you very
9 much, Mr. Runner.
10 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Runner, what market share
11 does SEMA represent with respect to muffler exhaust system
12 after-market manufacturers?
13 MR. RUNNER: I am only guessing, and it's a very
14' crude guess, but I would say, probably, somewhere between
15 twenty-five and thirty-five per cent. We do not tabulate
16 the figures, and I have no access to tabulate the number,
17 but I just know that our members who are involved in the
18 area tend to have significant positions in the marketplace.
19 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Would you provide us with the
20 names of those firms who are members of your organization
21 who are in the motorcycle muffler exhaust system after-
22 market manufacturing business?
23 MR. RUNNER: Certainly. I would be happy to.
24 Would you like that now, or would you like it in our
25 written submittal?
26 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: In your written submittal would
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1 be fine.
2 MR. RUNNER: I would be happy to.
3 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Runner, SEMA might be a very
4 good place to help us out on this, the ignition disabling
5 test, through your other manufacturers in your organization:
6 Isn't it true that ignition disables are often -- are
7 sometimes used, --in racing applications?
8 MR. RUNNER: Yes, that's true, perhaps to the
9 chagrin of some of the drivers.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Perhaps, as I mentioned before,
11 if EPA does some further refinement work on ignition
12 disables, SEMA would be able to tap some of the resources
13 from the manufacturers who are in this kind of business,
14 they might have nothing to do with motorcycle mufflers, to
15 help us out and come up with a reliable system, because,
16 with racing systems, obviously, you're dealing with very
17 high priced equipment that you don't want to get hurt.
18 MR. RUNNER: I will put out a memo to our members
19 who are in that filed and request that any of them interested
20 in it, to contact your Agency.
21 MR. EDWARDS: We would appreciate that very |
22 much. j
23 I had one other question for you. You mentioned ;
24 Memorandum 1-A coming down the pike on smog from EPA. Do
25 you agree with Mr. Rosen's comments that in order to comply
26 with air emissions regulations that the mufflers are going
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1 to have to be quieter from that standpoint alone? (Witness
2 non-responsive to the question.) Perhaps that is something
3 you don't have the answer to but your members would?
4 MR. RUNNER: I would like to submit that in
5 writing. I have one of these gut feel things, and in the
6 past, my gut feelings have oftentimes gotten me into
7 embarrassing situations, so I would defer to a written
8 comment on that.
9 MR. EDWARDS: I would appreciate that very much,
10 Mr. Runner, that concludes my comments. Thank you very
11 much.
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: I've got a couple for you,
13 Mr. Runner.
14 Do you, or does your membership, at this point,
IS see anything in these proposed EPA rules, that would serve
16 to aggrandize the OEM manufacturer at the expense of your
17 membership in the after-market business?
18 MR. RUNNER: May I ask you to restate the question
19 please. I don't have my dictionary with me, and I'm not
20 sure of the meaning of that nice long word.
21 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: What I want to know is --
22 (laughter). Do you see these regulations helping the OEM
23 manufacturers at the expense of your folks?
24 . MR. RUNNER: Yes, I think I do, at least to
25 certain degrees. One of the benefits that the after-market
26 has currently is the price advantage in their exhaust systems
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1 and for the replacement sales, that price advantage is quite
2 significant.
3 I'm fearful that with the results of these
4 regulations that price advantage may be reduced significantly
5 That, combined with some of the things that have already been
6 done in the name of anti-tampering by the motorcycle
7 manufacturers, causing disruption in this market because of
g emissions regulations, I'm fearful that similar kinds of
9 things could result in disruption in the marketplace causing
IQ the consumer, but even more so causing the dealer, to be
11 more concerned about going to a non-OEM exhaust system.
12 Hopefully, we will learn from our experiences in
13 the emissions realm, and we won't repeat what's taking place
14 right now.
15 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you know, Mr. Runner, whether
16 or not any of your member firms are producing non-complying
17 systems, at this time, with state regulations?
18 MR. RUNNER: Other than racing systems, systems
19 intended and sold for racing, I do not believe that any of
20 our members are building systems which are illegal in the
21 states that they are being sold. That's a fairly carefully
22 worded answer, and I am sidestepping.
23 I am not sure of how loud some of the systems may
24 be in uhe non-regulated states. I do not know of any of
25 our members who are building side pipes, or systems designed
26 to be super-loud, except in racing applications.
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1 • CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Has your association ever
2 considered a self-certification or a voluntary certification
3 program for noise emissions, labeling for example, noise
4 emissions control, within your organization?
5 MR. RUNNER: Yes, we have. We have been through
6 this process of labeling and noise emissions control in the
7 automotive exhaust system area. The self-certification was
8 considered at the SEMA level. It proved more cost effective
9 to supply our members with necessary technical help, and
10 with recommendations, so that they could set up their own
11 testing facilities, but in the automotive exhaust system
12 area, our members tend to be much larger companies than the
13 types of companies that we see in the motorcycle exhaust
14 system realm, so the capability technically of the companies,
15 and financially of the companies, is much greater.
16 What we did is sponsor testing programs primarily
17 well, all at McDonnell Douglas, trying to define the noise
18 levels that existed in the real world, and we now have a
19 testing program that we're trying to relate different test
20 procedures, and try to look at every test procedure we can
21 think of and see what kinds of correlations do exist. Again,
22 this is automotive, for clarification of the record.
23 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: So your firms, your member
24 firms, would not be large enough, then, to undertake such
25 a program on the noise for mufflers for a motorcycle?
26 MR. RUNNER: No, I wouldn't say that. I think
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I that it s dependent on the test procedure selected, and the
2 number of different models that have to be tested. If we
3 talk in terms of the stationary test, and we talk in terms
4 of worst case representative models, and we talk in terms
5 of an SO dB(A), then I think our members can achieve a
g testing that's required, within their own facilities, and
7 can afford the equipment and the training of their personnel.
g CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Do you count among your
g membership any non-U. S. manufacturers for motorcycle after-
IQ market?
11 MR. RUNNER: No, we do not.
12 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Anything else? (No response
13 to the question.) Thank you very much, sir.
14 MR. RUNNER: Thank you very much for this
15 opportunity.
16 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: The crowd is thinning. We
17 have two more scheduled speakers, and perhaps one more
13 beyond that. We would not anticipate that the length of
19 time for each presentation, including questions, would run
20 more than thirty minutes maximum for each of these, which
21 is about the maximum that we would expect to remain would
22 be another hour and a half, unless there are others who
23 would care to speak.
24 I would propose, at this point, that we take
25 about a ten minute break, and that we continue through
26 without a break for dinner, unless there are objections from
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1 anyone in the audience. We will continue, then, with Mr.
2 Jim Grogan next, please. We will take a ten minute break
3 at this point.
4 (Whereupon, the proceedings were
5 in recess from 5:35 o'clock, p.m., until
5 5:55 o'clock, p.m.)
7 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: We will reconvene how, and we
8 will hear now from Mr. Jiin Grogan.
9 JIM GROGAN
10 Thank you. The comments that I am going to make
\l are based on our company's understanding of the proposed
12 rule makings. I might preempt them with, we are members
13 of the MIC who were -- we were prompted joining them because
14 of the State noise regulation and the pressures that were
15 being put on our dealers to market our product, and we are
16 also members of SEMA, the Specialty Equipment Manufacturers
17 Association, as an exclusive manufacturer of motorcycle
18 awning products, and again we come to react to legislative
19 pressure and our ability to react correctly.
20 First of all, the uniform regulation is welcomed
21 by our company. The states were tearing us up individually,
22 Oregon, Florida, Pennsylvania. We're spending much too much
23 time on the basic problems there where everyone has a
24 different test procedure which we couldn't react to even if
25 we wanted to in any capacity.
26 Description of our company: Basically, Kendick
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1 Engineering is the corporate exhaust division. It is active
2 in the after-market motorcycle replacement exhaust industry.
3 Based on the EPA background study, we maintain approximately
4 a five to seven per cent share of the market. Current
5 facility size is thirty-nine thousand square feet, eighty
6 full time employees, not including twenty-eight sales reps,
7 and numerous small suppliers in the local area. These small
8 suppliers run small three to five man shops that act as
9 vendors to expedite or keep our costs down as, fabricators,
10 welding, stamping shops, things like that.
11 We have twelve separate models in our product
12 line. Our current suggested list price is one sixty nine
13 ninety-five. 'To the best of our ability this price as we
14 can calculate it the first year of the proposed rule making
15 would escalate anywhere from fifty to seventy per cent.
16 This would be based on current noise proposal as it stands
17 and in relation to our R&D necessary to tooling changes,
18 certification, testing, manufacturing costs of basic redesign
19 labeling costs, plus the EPA predicted decline in demand
20 of both our product and the motorcycle in general.
21 Further reaching implications affecting list
22 price costs are reduction in our work force, relocation
23 expense, new product development, broad fabricated material
" price increases due to lower volume processing requirements.
25 Also related are if we should diversify in
2° comparison in the industry we have a young firm but it is
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1 on the upswing we do have manufacturing capability and the
2 talent to come up with new products that would be best lent
3 to stay in the motorcycle after-market field, not in the
4 exhaust product end of it, the spinoff into accessory racks,
5 seats, some of our competitors are doing that just of right
6 now, that displaces maybe two or three times the number of
7 companies that are in exhaust business because we could
8 move in on two and three man shops and exceed or be more
9 than cost competitive in their areas, so impactwise this
10 is -- you have to excuse me I'm a little nervous, it's an
II emotional problem, it's a political one that we don't know
12 how to react to, if it's technical .I'm sure we could, as
13 we. are with emissions -- selective service enforcement
14 auditing, production verification, the labeling verification,
15 and the auditing, are also areas that add substantial costs
16 to ourselves and to a certain degree the taxpayer due to
17 the manpower and paperwork requirement from all of the
18 after-market industry.
19 As a company we always try and minimize red
20 tape to stay profitable, one of the few areas that we do
21 have control over.
22 Our suggestion, as far as enforcement goes,
23 might be a small government task force of possibly two
24 government employees driving around the Washington, B.C.
25 area for a period of one week visiting motorcycle retailers
26 to verify that the entire or the total after-market industry
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1 is in compliance to product verification and labeling.
2 We remain confident that this input will be taken
3 to heart and that the seriousness of the economic situation
4 for our company is real,
5 A little more specific -- and I have been sitting
6 here-since 8:30 this morning -- some things that have come
7 up that weren't possibly covered correctly or inaccurately
8 or and some things that weren't brought up should be. The
9 basic background study is somewhat dated. A lot of the
10 information was taken from 1975. Basically before it was
11 taken from a motorcycle magazine. Their information might
12 be from '74 as far as what actually was happening in the
13 industry. It doesn't really show the technical achievement
14 that has happened in the last three years with the noise
15 emissions of the new motorcycles as they come out they have
16 definitely bee on a quiet trend.
17 One manufacture in ."specific came out with a
18 model that had an operational problem because it was too
19 quiet and the noise output was indeed increased the
20 following year, the following model year. The customer
21 couldn't relate to the gear that it was in. They were
22 'having problems with coming up alongside a car and without
23 at least the equivalent sound of a car next to you which
24 a motorcycle doesn't make because of the lack of a frontal
25 area they're having problems with people changing lanes
OR
*"° with the motorcycle unobserved.
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1 This is some of the thinking that maybe our
2 past customers or people who are noise related as far as
3 motorcyclists go maybe they relate a little safety to the
4 whole thing not justifiably because to the public welfare
5 or your aim or our aim to stay in business but it's a
6 different aspect.
7 Within our own product line we have instituted
8 since September a twelve per cent reduction in noise output
9 in our particular exhaust systems not because there was as
10 much importance to stay in business in Florida, or
11 Pennsylvania, but across the board for all states so that
12 we do have cedibility with our dealers, and we had a positive
13 company direction where we could rely on forecasting and
14 prediction for setting budgets and sales goals.
15 The 83 dB(A) limit in our opinion to meet that
16 in the ninety-ninth percentile, as I understand it, means
17 that we should strive for 80 dB(A) to meet 83 dB(A) because
18 of the manufacturing and test tollerances that are real,
19 whether it is the humidity for the fit of one thing or
20 another to guaranty no louder than 83 we feel that in
21 manufacturing we would have to design prototype and add
22 additional tollerances to our product and strive for 80
23 before it goes in the box or is approved for production.
2^ When we test and do our prototype work at 80
25 dB(A) whether it's dynamically on a fly-by or the MIC
^° twenty-inch test which we have good correlation from our
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1 experience, all of our engineering backgrounds, what there
2 are of them, is based on the MIC half meter or twenty-inch
3 test find that we have with current product a mechanical
4 threshold, the motor does get rattles, and bangs and clicks,
5 and all kinds of different things when you hold it for a
6 sustained period of time, particularly during octaband
7 analysis, you have to take that air cooled engine and blow
8 air across it even though it is stationary and we have found
9 mechanical threshold of 80 dB(A) in many motorcycles, not
10 all.
11 Also the importance of having a good twenty-inch
12 test with correlation is particularly important because of
13 the safety of the rider and the relationship of workmens
14 compensation or liability insurance as an employee riding a
15 motorcycle of a thousand cc's with seventy brake horsepower
16 and with pearl type systems with the stock engines that could
17 even add ten per cent to that you have to not only have a
18 test site but you have to maintain it which means it has
19 to be clear, level, with no sand or anything where you would
20 go out on a normal unused highway and you have to sweep it
21 down, it does require quite a bit of time and labor to make
22 it safe and even then if something should occur whether it
23 was a mechanical failure or a brake failure we really don't
24 know what we would do or what would happen to our insurance
25 rates or what our liability is to that employee.
26 That's a very serious thing that we have been
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1 minimizing any kind of dynamic test because of that related
2 wheel spin and mechanical problems particularly on a new
3 motorcycle or a borrowed motorcycle where it is not present
4 and completely gone over by our own technical people.
5 Things do happen to new motorcycles whether you
g run the dynamic test which is almost a no no when you borrow
7 a bike. To go out and buy one is twenty-four to four
g thousand dollars in the product group where we supply systems.
9 Even the running of the static tester is paint discoloration
10 other things your oil temperature gets exceedingly hot. We
11 have a universal muffler that we use but we also have a
12 similar design for all the headers for the smaller displacement
13 and particularly in the smaller bikes there's heat problems
14 in some cases makes it very difficult to justify borrowing
15 a bike or even getting one on loan in a new condition which
16 is usually a late model and sometimes the pipe lines may
17 still be months before they reach the dealers' showroom
18 floor so there's difficulties in getting ahold of the bikes
19 economically and then after if you should have to buy one
20 what do you do with them.
21 In this particular area they give bikes away,
22 there's price wars, they don't maintain their prices a lot,
23 the dealers don't, they rely on the accessory sales to
24 generate revenue. They want the service work and the dealer
25 cost is generally what the motorcycle is marketed for. Other
26 parts of the country may be different.
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1 ' We also are concerned or became a little more
2 concerned after the OES talked today about the competititive
3 advantage that they may have. Besides offering a system that
4 we think our customers buy number one for styling, then
5 maybe performance, or the tone, the weight savings is
6 substantial, we feel that it is designed and it meets or
7 exceeds OEM durability with the new regulations, maybe not
8 so much the noise, and we have to address ourselves because
9 we're eminently pressured by the emissions regulations of
10 having to come up and meet his price which we will definitely
11 lose our price advantage. Again the econonomic impact on
12 our company.
13 . You asked questions about how the emissions
14 certification is going to affect performance and I would say j
15 that if you had no noise regulations right now that the
16 requirements to meet emissions in the motorcycle industry
17 and create a reasonable basis which means run several
18 expensive Federal test procedures on a certified emissions
19 chassis dyno for which there was only one public lab in the
20 country and it just happens to be within about thirty miles
21 of here.
22 To meet those emissions requirements we have run
23 tests there. Unfortunately there is an EPA government
24 program going on there and we are fit in at convenience
25 sake but indications do tend to indicate that similar
26 back pressure is required to meet the emissions standards
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1 which does not really allow any type of a design that we're
2 aware of to be as free-flowing as the louder systems on
3 the market today.
4 Some questions or general questions that I will j
i
5 need I would like to ask about before you ask me some and
6 one thing is we do support the MIC half-meter test
7 wholeheartedly if for no other reason we have gotten good
8 correlation and we've been using it for approximately seven
9 months as longs as v/e have had Type One sound level meter
10 in our company and all of our engineering background studies
11 would have to be related back over to any new proposed short
12 tests for correlation purposes which would be our responsibility
13 I'm sure.
14 One thing again that I ask is for the system
15 design prior to 1980 I would like to know if there is a
16 labeling requirement for that and why. If it's an unregulated
17 motorcycle replacement parts labeling, and this again may
18 be my misinterpretation or my company but we have systems
19 that break down'into components and that each replacement
20 component have to be individually labeled.
21 Also we think that grouping by displacement is
22 possible to some degree depending on the red line displacement
23 of the motorcycle and the maximum rate of horsepower. We
24 have found that between one or two thousand cc motorcycles
25 or three -- excuse me -- if the red line is, say, eight
2" thousand then we run our twenty-inch test at fifty per cent
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1 of that rated red line, basically we can get correlation.
2 The other suggestion on labeling as we have the
3 same problem as everyone else insomuch as we have one basic
4 muffler assembly that not only fits say eight motorcycles
5 for a given model year but it back fits five years if the
6 basic, engine configuration hasn't changed, and does that
7 include it on the labeling maybe a manufacturing code number
8 and the decibel reading is all that's required on the label,
9 and the name of the manufacturer, and the dealer network,
10 or the EPA or mailing on the EPA could categorize it that
11 way rather than reaching every make and model as a suggestion
12 The emissions might, to get back on that a little
13 bit, technically compounds quite a few things. They
14 basically worked on engine efficiency which most companies
15 in the after-market have done and made a profit at over
16 the years. We do improve a lot of things in the past on
17 standard bikes.
18 The manufacturers to meet AC and CO requirements
19 have basically leaned down the carburetors, and very
20 effectively. Now this raises the gas temperature quite a
21 bit in the exhaust system of motorcycles manufacturered
22 after December 31, 1977. This gas rate to maintain
23 performance, the gas rate has to have a higher flow rate
24 for equivalent performance. The higher flow rate is again
25 more difficult to dissipate.
26 So not only do ws have state of the art quieting
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1 work or noise reduction work to do but we have the higher
2 gas temperature rate to address ourselves to, and we do
3 not have a resident engineer in our company. Maybe we
4 should. Maybe we're going to have to. But that again is
5 part of our economical picture that has to be looked at also,
6 and if we do get one, where do we get one from, a motorcycle
7 company, probably not as our future looks so unstable we
8 would probably have a hard time negotiating any type of
9 competent engineer at any price except on a short term
10 basis and that isn't the way that we maintain our employees.
11 The only problem is again noise related and
12 again OEM related. It is a technical one that we are having
13 trouble with and that's our the emissions motorcycles that
14 you can not change the jetting. You can not change the
15 jetting and you put a good hard breathing exhaust system on
16 you cause engine temperature to rise, oil temperature to
17 rise, and the durability of the basic motorcycle is reduced
18 substantially.
19 Also a large percentage of our parts go out
20 chrome plated and if you get up in those temperature ranges
21 the chrome starts bluing, the customer isn't happy either,
22 so we're forced to increase back pressure on any motorcycles
23 that are manufactured two years before your imposed noise
24 regulations and it's really not that I'm belittling the
25 noise thing as compared to the emissions thing, it seems
26 like they're both on an equal technical plane as far as our
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1 product development goes.
2 And your goals, the emissions people's goals,
3 and ours, seem to be common. It is only our ability to
4 react that I'm concerned about, and I think that we all
5 should be.
6 The intake silencing designs again the manufacturers
i
7 have been taking great pains and a lot of money to quiet
g intake roar as you are aware is necessary. This sets up
9 fluctuations in the air box as far as the air-fuel mixture
10 goes, the complex intake's path are hard to figure out how
11 to design the exhaust system to react to these intake paths.
12 Again it's like self-regulation. You're making us react so
13 that it's even operational with the manufacturers' art in a
14 positive manner.
15 They're doing a lot to the motorcycles already
16 and we thank them for it ourselves. Okay.
17 Again, it was much worse before March 17th or
18 whenever the Federal Register was put out because we were
19 dealing or were forced to deal with quite a number of
20 different states with varying degrees of technical experience
21 or even consideration for the motorcycle industry or their
22 problems.
23 I think that's it I have to close on that note.
24 Any questions you may have or technical information that I
25 can supply you I certainly will unless it's confidential
26 and then I'll refer that in writing.
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1 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Grogan, how would you
2 determine for yourself that your product meets the noise
3 standard; that is, if EPA dropped its product verification
4 and, let's say, it's reporting, and said, "You certify
5 yourself"? How would you go about making that determination?
6 MR. GROGAN: Well, I believe that self-certification
7 is a commitment. It's one of first of all determinining
8 if you have the technical capability as a company to self-
9 certify, to have the necessary equipment on hand, the
10 personnel duly trained in it, and to properly execute basic
11 instructions as far as how to measure the sound, how to
12 produce the labeling. We need input to react to.
13 Those test results would be compiled from
14 physical tests, static ones if possible, and submitted in
15 writing to the Environmental Procection Agency, and then
16 any kind of an enforcement could be done at any retail
i
17 outlet that we have. We have four thousand dealers. !
i
18 Did I mess up? |
i
i
19 MR. KOZLOWSKI: No, no, I thought I misunderstood !
20 you, but perhaps you answered my question like I would like i
21 it to be answered. You say, then, if we dropped our !
!
22 requirements, you would test anyhow, and send that information
23 to the EPA?
24 MR. GROGAN: What we would try to do is react !
i
25 to your requirments. Okay. Yes, we would do that. We do
26 that for states now. If they do not have a clear test
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,1 procedure rather than call somebody that can not give you
2 any kind of an accurate answer, we generally forward a CHP
3 dynamic test, and a statement that this is true, and here
4 are our part numbers.
5 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Fine. That sound very much like
6 our product verification testing, ignoring SCA and rather
7 it looks like what we want for our required TV testing
8 and our required reporting, I think.
9 How about having a look at that and perhaps
10 commenting on that to us.
11 Would you also, if you could, and I know this
12 might be difficult, would you give us the amount of product
13 verification testing and the cost, the anticipated cost,
14 that you would see in the regulations based on the proposed
15 regulations, the amount of reporting, more importantly,
16 the cost that the reporting, the amount of money that it
17 would cost you to report, and then thirdly, something that
18 you perhaps can't, but how much an SCA test would cost you
19 if we ordered one?
20 MR. GROGAN: I really have to admit that it's
21 very difficult to understand the SCA specifics and how it
22 would relate to our company, and we have no experience in
23 that. Through MIC, maybe some of their technical people,
24 if they would help us reduce the information so that we
25 could understand it, I think that we could react that way.
26 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That's fine. Let me also add,
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1 so 'hat in your consideration perhaps to the MIC, the idea
2 of SCA is that the government would identify a statistical
3 sampling plan whereby it could test, and in case of the
4 after-market, we did away with the multi-sampling plan and
5 came up with what we think is a fairly, a more simpler plan,
6 but if the MIC provides technical support to handle this,
7 perhaps they would look at the plan itself, and if there is
8 another plan that they think would fit your situation, the
9 after-market situation, better, we would like to hear that.
10 Okay?
11 MR. GROGAN: Yes. One thing that we have
12 calculated, and if you need specific breakdowns for our
13 company on what it would cost, is that what you're asking
14 for?
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes. I'd like an idea of what
16 kind of cost the manufacturer would incur.
17 MR. GROGAN: Okay. My official, I think what I
18 can justify is, what I start off with fifty to seventy-five
19 per cent increase on one-sixty-nine-ninety-five for the
20 first year of compliance, if it's the 83 dB(A).
21 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Well, what I was hoping you would
22 give me is the testing cost, the cost broken down for
23 product verification testing, one, and secondly, the
24 reporting, and then third SCA, so we could look at those.
25 is that possible?
26 MR. GROGAN: One of the things I would like to
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1 comment, I will react as accurately as I can, but as our
2 company is set up, and working seven days a week, twelve
3 to fourteen hours a day, our company has gone from forty to
4 eighty employees in less than six months, and I know it's
5 important to react in this area but I don't know how
6 accurate that information will be. We have a lot of workers
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI:' Okay. Don't give us bad data
8 so, but if you can't spend enough time that your commitment
9 is good, don't give it to us at all.
10 MR. GROGAN: If I can spend the time. I just
11 questioned the accuracy because of the oversights that we
12 may make because I think we have to hire one full time
13 employee and crank that into the first year of compliances.
14 That is a dollar or two dollars a pipe right there.
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. You make universal
16 mufflers?
17 MR. GROGAN: We make an exhaust system, headers,
18 with a common muffler core, or muffling device, that goes
19 on all of them as far as the large displacement bikes go
20 eighty, ninety per cent of it. The only difference in the
21 muffler is the location of the mounting bracket.
22 - MR. KOZLOWSKI: Glass-pack?
23 MR. GROGAN: Basically, yes.
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Last a year?
25 MR. GROGAN: Probably. We recommend every
26 thousand miles that it be inspected.
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1 MR. KOZLOWSKI: And how do they inspect it,
2 visually or --
3 MR. GROGAN: No. They have to remove it and
4 inspect it. They have to do that anyhow because, with the
5 type of fuels that are being run now, particularly at the
6 higher exhaust temperatures, and also the gasoline, they
7 have to go in and service the inside of the core of the
8 muffler to prevent it from attack if from against the acids
9 or whatever is in there on a regular basis. It depends on
10 the area.
11 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you. That is all I have.
12 MR. PETROLATI: We are interested in anything
13 we can learn to reduce the testing for the after-market
14 manufacturer. However, I didn't quite understand one of
15 your comments on that.
16 Do you feel that testing can be done by grouping
17 into displacement categories? Could you follow through on
18 that, ^please, and explain?
19 MR. GROGAN: Take a KZ-1000, and a GF-750
2° Suzuki, or a GS-10QO Suzuki, and they both have the basic
21 maximum rate of horsepower, or their RPM's are at eight
22 thousand, and you run them both at fifty per cent of that
23 on the half-meter test, basically you get good correlation
24 with the same muffler on both motorcycles.
25 MR. PETROLATI: In other words, if it meets the
" requirements on one 1000 displacement motorcycle, you feel
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that it will meet the requiCements on the others?
• MR. GROGAN: No, I didn't say that. I don't
know what the requirements are on those motorcycles, and I
don't think you do either. I say you would probably get the
same reading. If your have two four-cylinder 1000 cc
motorcycles, we have found if you hold them both a four
thousand RPM, or both at forty-five hundred . . .
on it?
MR. PETROLATI: Both with your exhaust system
MR. GROGAN: Yes. . . . that you will get a
common reading.
MR. PETROLATI: Okay. What would you do with
this common reading, though? Would you say that this system
is good for a 1000 cc motorcycle? In other words, that
common reading is below the requirements, the EPA requirements
be it the manufacturers' label value, whatever?
MR. GROGAN: Simplification of the labeling, and
if you get correlation, the necessity, the way that the new
models are introduced, they can be introduced at any time
during the course of a year, you wouldn't have to change
your label if a new 1000 came up, but you could spot check
it, and you may have to spot check it, but at least you
would be able to keep the common label, would say 1000 cc,
one hundred and five -- that's half-meter test, Kendick
Engineering, and the date, I'd like to have the date of
the motorcycle also, all 1000 cc's in 1970 or in 1981.
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1 All right. So, labeling is quite a can of worms,
2 as far as our degree of compliance.
3 MR. PETROLATI: I agree, for the universal muffler
4 So, your suggestion would be that, instead of including
5 model designation, as we currently require, to base it on
6 the lines of displacement? In other words, this sytem is
7 good for 1000 cc motorcycles, etcetera, I know if I might,
8 you mean whatever you test it for?
9 MR. GROGAN: We have correlation between brands
10 as far as like the Kawsaki offers 1000 cc engines in three
11 or four different versions, basically the same motor, I
12 don't think it would be necessary for us to check an LTD
13 and a Z-l-R, and a KZ-1000, if they had the same basic
14 engine on them.
15 'MR. PETROLATI: Okay. That's correct. And
16 that's not a requirement of the regulations.
17 MR. GROGAN: Okay. In the regulations it also
18 says that if other test procedures can be — information
19 can be supplied that would correlate we would be interested
20 in saying that the GS-1000 Suzuki also has the same level
21 as our other 1000 cc bikes that we certify — self-certify. \
22 If I have to go out and buy a 1000 cc Suzuki
23 and then two weeks later go out and get a 1000 cc Yamaha,
24 and then they'll come out with a new emissions regulation
25 in the middle of November and everybody will come with a
2" new 1000 cc again, it's going to be -- we're really worried
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1 about staying in business, and I'm just trying to go through
2 the mechanics of our concern.
3 .MR. PETROLATI: I understand; I understand.
4 MR. GROGAN: An acquisition of motorcycles is a
5 major consideration.
6 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. But you do understand that
7 we're contemplating the after-market manufacturer testing
8 to a great extent by the MIC test. Consequently, there's
9 no real requirement be adopted for the manufacturer to go
10 out and purchase a motorcycle. We envision him being able
11 to conduct that test at the owner's facility.
12 Is that the same way you see it?
13 MR. GROGAN: There's no way that we want to run
14 a twenty-inch test at a dealer's facility -- I hope there's
15 no dealers"out there that we borrow motorcycles from -- but
16 because the motor does get very hot, hotter than you'd want
17 one of your brand new bikes to get.
18 MR. PETROLATI: All right, so you're concerned
19 about the cooling problem testing at the dealer's facility?
20 MR. GROGAN: That's, plus, if you go to the
21 dealer's facility, there are millions, and in an area around
22 a motorcycle dealer facility we would run a -- we would
23 want to run a twenty-inch test. You know, there is always
24 a wall, or motorcycles, or people walking by, and it's
25 usually near a street, and you've got cars going by. There's
2" just no way. If you want correlation, you have to- have
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1 consistently as good an environment as you can, particularly
2 on a twenty-inch test. ' j
3 MR. PETROLATI: Do you usually wind up bringing '
4 these motorcycles back to your manufacturing plant?
5 MR. GROGAN: That is correct, and then we move
6 them out again to a test area. In fact, it's a big parking
7 lot we use on weekends.
8 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. I think that answers my
9 line of questioning. Thank you very much, Mr. Grogan.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Grogan, I think I can say with
11 all honesty that I have learned perhaps more from you than
12 any other person that has testified in the last three days
13 because of that comprehensiveness and not because of the
14 lateness in hours. I don't have very many questions for you.
15 Your estimate of of the rise in price from fifty
16 per cent to seventy per cent at the first level of EPA's
17 the 83 decibel standard?
18 MR. GROGAN: With the understanding that our
19 manufacturing goal would be 80.
20 MR. EDWARDS: Okay, that's what I'm trying to
21 focus on. Apart from the SEA reporting, product testing
22 cost, that Mr. Kozlowski referred to, I guess I'm in a kind
23 of shock and would be interested to know how much quieter
" you have to make your systems than you are making them
25 today, current designs.
26 MR. GROGAN: Current design, probably 3 dB(A),
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1 current design. Now I also have to clarify that "current
2 design". We just spent thousands of dollars on emission
3 certification, so to change that design again is even more.
4 MR. EDWARDS: I understand. Can you possible
5 break down in your written comments, how much of the fifty
6 to seventy per cent would be attributable to actual quieting
7 of the muffler as distinct from additional testing for
8 reporting purposes established by the EPA?
9 MR. GROGAN: In writing, yes. I can do that.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Grogan, thank you very much.
11 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: It looks like it for the moment.
12 Do you have any questions for us?
13 MR. GROGAN: Well, just one last statement, and
14 no one from the after-market that's been here or you will
15 see is currently selling a system for a 1978 emissions
16 motorcycle which means that their sales are being heavily
17 impacted right now.
18 I have to apologize for the lack of participation
19 of companies in the after-market. They should be here for
20 no other reason but to listen. The people that were here
21 were basically members of the Motorcycle Industry Council,
22 and are very active and conscientious. The other companies
23 would probably have a hard time buying a Type One sound
24 level meter to even react to anything that would be required
25 from your short test, and we're talking about your prediction
"* of an eighty or ninety per cent cut back in after-market
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.1 exhaust people it won't be from noise it will be from the
2 emissions standpoint unless some sort of waivers, or
3 understanding, or group testing, or test facilities alone
4 are made available, and certainly, what has happened to our
5 company and to eveyone else in the replacement motorcycle
g industry the people that are there are just concerned and
7 a little mad, and they're going to make sure that it's not
3 going to happen in the area of noise where where we have an
9 opportunity to express our opinion and join trade groups
10 we will do so as long as we can operate at a profit and at
11 least have some company growth and a future commitment in
12 that direction, a positive direction, which is part of
13 living in this country, and I thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Thank you very much.
15 - Mr. Collins, RC Engineering.
16 RUSS COLLINS
17 Gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, thank you for this
18 opportunity to be here today. I worked very hard on this
19 statement, and it seems like every after-market manufacturer
j
20 that has been up here just about covered everything, but, I
i
21 as Jim said, this is a very emotional situation to me, it is |
22 my life, and I'm fighting for it. j
23 So, I'm Russ Collins, President of RC Engineering,;
24 an after-market company, manufacturing after-market ;
25 motorcycle exhaust systems. I am an independent American <
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26 businessman, an entrepreneur, a motorcycle rider, a \
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1 motorcycle technical rider, and a professional motorcycle
2 racer. I've been a motorcycle mechanic, a salesman, and
3 a dealer-manager. I have done just about all of it.
4 I am a self-taught performance engineer of sorts,
5 and I have succeeded in business through the use of
6 innovative and progressive American ingenuity. I have
7 improved the degree, so to speak, of every motorcycle I have
8 ever touched. I know what power-to-noise ratio is, and I
9 know that power is noise, even though noise is not always
10 power.
11 I hope that I can shed some light on the problem
12 that we are addressing here today, unnecessary motorcycle
13 noise. I can speak to you as an after-market manufacturer,
14 a motorcycle rider, technical consultant, professional racer,
15 or a hot rodder.
16 Hot rodding, customizing, is related to moving
17 vehicles, cars, vans, trucks and motorcycles, alike. I
18 should add boats. It is the American way of life. We have
19 custom homes, custom suits and dresses, golf clubs, tennis
20 rackets, jewelry, guns, fishing poles, etcetera, etcetera,
21 etcetera.
22 . We Americans are never completely satisfied
23 with any mass produced products. We all like to have
24 something special, and that is the core of the problem that
25 We face here today, special motorcycle noise.
26 We have something else special here today, we
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1 have our government officials sitting here listening to our
2 problems, complaints, desires and opinions. This very
3 special thing is something that doesn't happen in too many
4 countries of this world. It is also the American way of life
5 Gentlemen, I applaud you, I respect you, I encourage you,
6 and I hope that I can help you, in this very special problem
7 of very special motorcycle noise.
8 As an after-market manufacturer, I stress that
9 the current level of 63 dB(A) is reduced even further, it
10 will cause not only the demise of our only remaining American
11 manufacturer of motorcycles, but also the slow death of
12 American free enterprise in the highly competitive
13 motorcycle after market marketplace.
14 The Japanese factories that produce most of our
15 current motorcycles are the only ones that can make the cut
16 below 83. This would put the American after-market out of
17 business, and could open up a new market of Japanese after-
18 market accessories. They have the technical expertise, the
19 money, and the channels of distribution through their
20 already established franchised dealers. Their dealers are
21 the only ones that can market their factory accessories
22 by virtue of the franchise agreements.
23 The independent American parts and accessories
24 stores that are not franchised by an OEM would be severely
25 impaired in this type of a market.
26 Currently, the American motorcycle after-market
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1 is comprised of American products produced in America, by
2 Americans, with American materials, for use on mostly
3 Japanese motorcycles.
4 The American after-market is currently equaling
5 the OEM's in gross sales per year, in American dollars.
.6 Unnecessary, unenforceable, meaningless regulations, by
7 government, will decrease this American market and add to
8 the imbalance of trade problems. It will increase
9 unemployment by far more than tae five thousand jobs that
10 EPA has suggested. I can see twenty to twenty-five thousand
11 jobs lost in America.
12 I criticize the EPA in this area. I do not feel
13 that the environmental impact on American labor and business
14 has been thoroughly investigated. At current rule making
15 levels, the EPA can be party to increasing unemployment,
16 increasing the deficit in trading balance, increasing
17 foreign domination of the American market, and increasing
18 American taxes on all levels, by adopting rules that could
19 probably never be enforced on the local level.
20 The local level is where the problem is and the
21 problem must be solved. If the American after-market has
22 to comply to proposed standards of less than 83 dB(A) it
23 would have the same effect as putting us out of business
24 by legal measures. We would have to raise our prices to
25 or in excess of original equipment manufacturers. I think
26 that this could be called "inflation by due process of
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1 elimination," eliminate the American after-market, and
2 eliminate the problem of special motorcycle noise, at the
3 same time.
4 Wrong 1 The problem could be a teenager riding his \
5 moto-cross bike in front of your house, as we have heard by
6 previous statements. It could be a racing-only bike being
7 ridden on the street, or an easily modified street bike.
8 We should be -- I've heard the.word "modified" all weekend,
9 and I think we should clarify these statements. There are
1Q stock motorcycles with stock standard legal approved
11 systems. There are stock motorcycle systems that have been
12 modified, i.e., cut off, hacksawed, welding torch.
13 A couple of times I've heard the word "modified"
14 being used and I kind of got the idea they were talking
15 about after-market. After-market is not modified, and I
16 just hope that that is clear, legal after-market is not
17 modified. Straight pipes I would have to consider as modified
18 Anyway, what I'm trying to get to here is that
19 this cause of annoying motorcycle noise is not motorcycles,
20 per se, but the misuse of motorcycles, and some of their
21 related parts. Standard production motorcycles intended for
22 use on public highways as here follow the present level of
23 83 dB(A) by the fifty foot J-33 acceleration test, now in
24 use, is not offensive to anyone, or almost anyone. There
25 is always that one very verbal citizen group that has a
26 direct line to the police department, city council, ASPCA,
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1 local newspaper, and the paramedics of course.
2 These most verbal citizens groups really have
3 nothing else to do but complaint, complain about anything,
4 and it really doesn't matter what it's about, just join a
5 cause, and voice an opinion. That is the American way. What
6 these honest law abiding citizens are complaining about is
7 the misuse of some motorcycles and motorcycle products.
8 I, for one, and I don't stand alone on this issue,
9 can not condone this misuse. I feel that extreme measures
10 should be taken to curb this misues.
11 By previous statements, we have heard and seen
12 that the primary cause of motorcycle noise are off-road
13 only bikes, or competition only bikes, or illegally modified
14 motorcycles, being operated in an area where street legal
15 only bikes are supposed to be.
16 I have to support strict legislation and
17 enforcement of law to curb these violations. The problem
18 is, identifying the problem makers. In order to do this,
19 we, as after-marketeers, or OEM's, must help law enforcement
20 solve the problem.
21 Labeling is probably the only answer, simple
22 labeling, street, off-road, or competition only. The
23 competition only bike, with competition only exhaust
24 system, caught on the streets, should be penalized to the
25 fullest extent of the law. By the same token, off-road only
26 bikes, for instance, caught on the public highways, should
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1 be subjected to the same types of penalties. The same xvould
2 have to hold true for a street motorcycle that was modified
3 to the extent of cut off mufflers, straight pipes, or an
4 after-market system with the silencer system removed.
5 To reiterate, our special noise problem with
6 motorcycles is not 83 dB(A) street legal motorcycles with
7 standard or legal after-market exhaust systems, our problem
8 is race bikes operated in or close to residential areas,
9 off-road bikes operated in residential areas or on public
10 highways, and illegally equiped or modified street bikes
11 operated anywhere in public.
12 To solve the problem, we need strict intelligent
13 enforcement at the local level. If labeling would help
14 local enforcement cope with these offenders, then I would
15 have to support it at 83 dB for street, and 86 dB(A) for
16 off-road only machines. If labeling would solve the local
17 enforcement problems, then local government must allocate
18 enough tax dollars to pay for it.
19 At 83, motorcycles would not be the loudest form
20 of transportation. I think that they would be fourth,
21 behind airplanes, trains and trucks, trucks as I understand
22 'it, thil way I understand it the way trucks are tested by
23 the EPA at this time.
24 Motorcycles are a microscopic portion of the
25 overall noise in society, but social attitudes toward
26 motorcycle riders in general is not exactly fiar. These
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1 people are very loud and verbal. We are being discriminated
2 against by this very verbal portion of the public because
3 of a few violators in any of the previously listed cases.
4 The stricter government regulations get, the
5 more the public will rebel. The general motorcycle rider
6 will live with the current 83 dB limit. 86 was better,
7 but 83 is livable. Anything below 83 is going to cause a
8 marked increase in modifications, modifications that will
9 not be legal and may be very difficult to police. The
1Q public will not be served if the hot rodders are encouraged
11 to make illegal modifications to circumvent a useless,
12 meaningless law; i.e., prohibition, the Vietnam draft,
13 fifty-five mile an hour, and the helmet laws, are a few
14 perfect examples of overregulated citizens telling their
15 respective-governments where to stick it. It's the American
16 way.
17 In summary, I would like to ask you to remember,
18 the civil service agencies are formed to protect and serve
19 all citizens. Motorcyle riders are citizens, motorcycle
20 manufacturers are citizens, sensitive elderly citizens,
21 and John Q. Public citizens.
22 Let's get a good regulations that serves and
23 protects all of us legally. Let's keep Mr. Motorcycle
24 Rider legal. Don't make him an illegal hot rodder, but
25 keep Mr. Motorcycle, and motorcycle after-market manufacturer
26 legal. Give him a fair chance to stay in business. He
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1 could be employing Mr. John Q. Public. By the same token,
2 let's keep Mr. John Q. working at a steady job. He may be
3 supporting a sensitive elderly citizen that can't stand the
4 sound of racing motorcycles, or illegally modified street
5 bikes. Let's protect and serve equally. This is truly
6 the American way.
7 Thank you.
8 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes, I'm asking this question
9 for information. It may sound argumentative, or even
10 making a statement, but it is not intended to be that way.
11 I am asking a question.
12 You indicated that if we go below 83 dB(A) that
13 the American after-market system would be put out of business
14 but that the Japanese after-market system could meet the
15 demand, they could make a quiet muffler, and I can understand
16 the argument with the motorcycle manufacturers where they
17 have a great amount of investment in certain types of
18 equipment and tools not " being able to make that change, but
19 I don't understand why the American after-market system
20 couldn't react equally well to a standard as the Japanese,
21 or the Italians, or the English.
22 MR. COLLINS: The American after-market, probably
23 our biggest sales potential, is styling. We make a lighter,
24 cheaper, better looking, better styled exhaust system. In
25 some cases, it's louder, almost in all cases, almost. It's
26 not objectionably loud. As I said before, the Japanese have
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1 the technical expertise. They make a muffler that probably
2 weighs twenty pounds, which is what my whole system weighs.
3 The thing is very, very restrictive, and
4 motorcycle peope are performance people by virtue of their
5 choice of a motorcycle in the first place.
g • I just do not think that the American after-
7 market right now could really get much below 83. As Jim
8 said before me, to meet 83, we've been testing at 80,
9 and I just think we are being extremely restricted, and we
10 will be subjected, as Jim said, to heat problems, cnrome
11 problems, which would have the cost of our system, mine is
12 one hundred and forty-nine to one hundred and fifty-nine,
13 and it would go to two-nineteen, two-twenty-nine, which is
14 competitive with the stock systems.
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I see. So, what you are saying
16 is that you would be less competitive with the stock system
17 because of the price increase?
18 MR. COLLINS: We wouldn't be competitive at all.
19 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That is the same statement that
20 was made by the previous speaker. Okay. It's not that
21 we couldn't do it technically. If you people had to design
22 an 80 or 78 decibel muffler, if someone else could do it,
23 you could do it.
24 MR. COLLINS: Of course.
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay.
26 MR. COLLINS: But just like the calculators and
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1 the stereos ...
2 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I understand. Okay, once again,
3 I would like to ask you to do the same type of thinking.
4 Our regulations, the enforcement regulations, for the after-
5 market, are not intended to be overly burdensome. If you
6 see any particular thing in there which you think with
7 modifications are acceptable, but as they are, are too
8 costly, please tell us what recommendations you might have.
9 MR. COLLINS: Certainly.
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you.
11 MR. PETROLATI: Yes, just to follow Mr. Kozlowski'
12 question a little further, do you have any suggestions,
13 like the previous speaker, on some sort of simplified testing
14 scheme? In other words, representative testing. Anything
15 along those lines?
16 MR. COLLINS: I have to support the MIC twenty-
17 inch test, for the same reasons that Jim did. I didn't go
18 into that because I think that every after-market manufacture^-
19 that's been here today explained clearly the problem with
20 liability, wormens compensation, obtaining sites.
21 I haven't read a whole bunch about EPA's ten-
22 foot test. The ignition cut off is a problem, especially
23 on many of the higher performance motorcycles that are on
24 the market today, and may of the after-market -- we handle
25 everything, pistons, cam shafts, ignition systems, and some
26 of the ignition systems that we handle I almost defy to
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1 work with the emission cut off.
2 If we could run four thousand, or half of rated
3 RPM, at ten feet, I would think that would be a very, very
4 good test, probably producing good correlation, because
5 twenty-inches is a little close to the engine.
6 Working with -- and I'm on the MIC Techical
7 Committee -- the test that I was involved with two years
8 ago, we were testing one of my after-market systems, and
9 it produced almost as much noise -- my system comes out of
10 the right rear of the motorcycle by going around the
11 motorcycle, on the left front, the farthest point away from
12 the exhaust outlet, we had almost the same amount of noise
13 from the engine, and I think in a ten-foot test, we might
14 lose a little of the engine vibration, or just a little of
15 the engine noise, mechanical noise, per se, and we would get
16 a more accurate account of the exhaust note.
17 MR. PETROLATI: Okay. Fair enough. Thank you
18 very much, Mr. Collins.
19 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Collins, you made a very
20 eloquent statement, and I appreciate your sharing your
21 thoughts with us. I wouldn't ask you any technical questions
22 right now. I think it was eloquent enough that I don't want
23 to sully it.
24 MR. COLLINS: Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN THOMAS: Mr. Collins, I agree. I think
26 others, as you said here, and perhaps as Mr. Grogan said,
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1 I think your industry, the after-market industry, needs to
2 pay very close attention to these regulations. I think we
3 need to hear from them, and I am frankly delighted that we
4 have heard from as many representatives of your industry
5 as we have had in these three days of hearings here. It is
6 more than I had expected to hear.
7 I should also tell you and your colleagues, and
8 I hope you will carry this message back to them, it's late
9 in the day, when you talk to them, that I think you all
10 have very ably represented your industry.
11 It's very important, sometimes, that the folks
12 who have got to do the regulating, or the law passing, or
13 whatever it is, be able to talk and see, face-to-face, the
14 people that are going to be impacted by these rules, and I
15 would suggest that all of the data, and reports and studies,
16 that we get in Washington, and can read, do not weigh nearly
17 as importantly, in many cases, as being able to hear the
18 kinds of things you've said here, and to be able to discuss
19 these things, and I would urge you to talk again with your
20 colleagues in the coming days and weeks that if they have
21 the opportunity, or that they should make the opportunity,
22 to meet and talk with us, and I hope that you have seen it
23 at any rate, I hope you have a feeling that we are receptive.
24 that we are listening, that we don't have our minds made up.
25 we don't know what the answers are, and so it's up to you
26 all to help educate us too so that we do come up, hopefully,
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with regulations that are, as you have said, equitable to
all parties. That is what we are striving for.
Thank you very much for your presentation here
tonight.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you for being here.
CHAIRMAN THOMAS: That completes all of the
scheduled presentations that we have. Let me ask now if
there is anybody in the audience who would care to make
a presentation, or further comment, at this time? (No
response to the call.)
Going once, going twice, closed. This hearing
stands adjourned. We will reconvene on Friday of this week
in Tampa, Florida.
(WHEREUPON, THE HEARING WERE
TERMINATED AT 6:55 O'CLOCK, P.M.)
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CERTIFICATION
I HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing pages, numbered
from 1 through 298, represent a true and accurate transcription
of my stenographic notes taken at the EPA hearing on May 1,
1978..
DATED this 8th day of June, a.d. 1978.
\ » \
{ 0
ARTHUR SPRING, Reporte
OFFICIAL SEAL
ARTHUR SPRING
NOTARY PUBLIC - CALIFORNIA
PIVE^SlDc COUNTY \
My ccmn. rpi'cs AV3 2'3, !"'•• -j
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