PROCEEDINGS
                   VOLUME 4
                             LAKE ERIE
Conference
In the matter off Pollution off
the navigable waters off the
Detroit River and Lake Erie
and their Tributaries in the
State off Michigan
                       SECOND SESSION
                       JUNE 15-18, 1965
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE

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                 VOLUME 4
Conference
In the matter of Pollution of
the navigable waters of the
Detroit River and Lake Erie
and their Tributaries in the
State of Michigan
SECOND SESSION J U N E 15 - 18, 1 965
        U.S. DEPARTMENT OF
   HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE
        Public Health Service

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                  CONTENTS
                                                    PAGE;
OPENING STATEMENT
        By Mr. Stein

STATEMENT OF:

REPRESENTATIVE JOHN D. DINGELL

REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAM D. FORD

RICHARD D. VAUGHAN

GEORGE L. HARLOW

ERNEST PREMETZ

GOVERNOR GEORGE ROMNEY

GOVERNOR JAMES RHODES

REPRESENTATIVE WESTON E. VIVIAN

COLONEL EDWARD C. BRUCE

LIEUTENANT MAURICE S» POWER

KENNETH MACKENTHUN

GERALD EDDY

RALPH PURDY
JOHN E. VOGT
C. C. CRUMLEY
AL BARBOUR
MERLIN DAMON
TODD Ac GAYER
JOHN CHASCSA
GERALD REMUS
  16

  30

  44

 703

 852

 858

 871

 880

 912

 927

1013

1015

1028
1092

1035

1062

1075

1110

1112

1118

1231

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                                                       1-A


                CONTENTS,

                                                    PAGE:

STATEMENT OF;

GERARD H. COLEMAN                                   1435

GEORGE E. HUBBELL                                   1440

GEORGE J. HAZEY                                     1465

GENE LITTLE                                         1478

JAMES D. OGDEN                                      1490

OLGA M. MADAR                                       1493

FRED E. TUCKER                                      1505-A

HAYSE H. BLACK                                      1564

ROBERT c. MCLAUGHLIN                                1570

FRANK KALLIN                                        1582

A. J. VON FRANK                                     1607

ROBERT P. LOGAN                                     1622

JACK T. GARRETT                                     1651

WILLIAM R. DAY                                      1655

J. W. TRACHT                                        1662

C. D. BARRETT, SR., M.D.                            1716

STANLEY DIROFF                                      1749

WILLIS H. HALL                                      1771

CLOSING STATEMENT
      Mr. Stein                                     1782

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                                                      911





             WEDNESDAY, JUNE  16,  1965




                    9:30 A.M.








             MR. STEIN:  May we reconvene?



             I would  like to make a strong announcement



here requested by the Museum.  There will be no smoking,



no smoking on the stage, no smoking in the audience, no




smoking in the wings.




             Mr« Poston?



             MR. POSTON:  We have other Federal agencies



to report, and Colonel Bruce of the Corps of Engineers,



Detroit District Office, would like to make a statement.



             Is Colonel Bruce here?




             MR. STEIN:  Just before we begin, we have




one more announcement.



             MR. OEMING:  Mr. Chairman and fellow Con-




ferees:



             I want to announce that we have two alter-




nates this morning sitting in for Commission members«




             Mr. Stanley Quackenbush is the alternate




for Mr. Mclntyre, Director of Agriculture, and Mr.



Gerald Eddy is alternate for Dr. Ralph MacMullan, Di-




rector of Conservation.

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                                                    912



      STATEMENT OP COLONEL EDWARD C. BRUCE,



DISTRICT ENGINEER, U. S, ARMY ENGINEER DISTRICT,



                DETROIT, MICHIGAN







            COLONEL BRUCE:   I am Colonel Edward C.



Bruce, District Engineer, U. S. Army Engineer District,



Detroit.



            I welcome this opportunity to comment on two



aspects of the subject of water pollution.  One is the



role of the Corps of Engineers in water pollution



control.   The second is our response to the recommenda-



tions made in the Public Health Service study regarding



the Corps of Engineers maintenance dredging operations



in the Rouge and the Raisin Rivers.



            First, regarding what is called the



Anti-Refuse Act - The Corps of Engineers is charged



with administration ©f Section 13 of the River and Harbor



Act of 3 March 1899 (33 USC 407), commonly known as



the "Antl-Refuse Act."  Briefly, this section makes it



unlawful for anyone to discharge materials into a



navigable stream which may later have to be removed



by dredging, or by other means, to preserve navigation



channels. An extract which contains the exact wording



of this section is attached to this statement.

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                Colonel Bruce                       913
                        L

            The courts have held that a deliberate or


heedless discharge of oil Into navigable waters by a


vessel operating on those waters comes within the


prohibition of 33 USC 40?.


            Periodically we bring this law to the


attention of the public by distribution of a public


notice, and request that apparent or probable violations


be referred to the District Office. To enable us to


take appropriate action on an alleged violation, a report


should, if possible, Include the date, time, and place


of the act, in addition to the name of the vessel,


agency, or persons involved.


            Where circumstances warrant such action, an


alleged violation will be referred to the United States


District Attorney for prosecution under 33 USC 411, a


penal statute which provides for a fine of from $500


to $2,500, and for imprisonment of fr*m thirty days to


one year, or both fine and imprisonment.  Fortunately,


such action is rarely required.


            Regarding the USPHS Report - The following


relates to observations and recommendations made by


the Public Health Service regarding Corps of Engineers


dredging operations on pages 124 and 125 of their report


entitled "Pollution of the Detroit River, Michigan

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                  Colonel Bruce                      914



 Waters of Lake Erie,  and their Tributaries11



 (April 1965).   J will consider each recommendation,



 in turn,  identify the observation that occasioned the



 recommendation, then  provide the  Detroit District's



 oomment.



             USPHS Recommendation;  "l.   The hopper



 dredges  discontinue  disposing of the  ship's trash and



 garbage at the Raisin River disposing  grounds."



             USPHS Observation;    Garbage was thrown



 overboard (Oct. 1963) by Dredge Lyman  on the dumping



 grounds in Lake Erie.  "It  has been customary to  dump



 garbage on the designated dumping grounds,  but  at no



 other  place."



             Our Detroit  District  Comment on this



 recommendation is:  The Corps has  a continuing program



 of improving garbage  and trash disposal facilities



 aboard its  hopper dredges.   On 12 February 1965,  the



 North  Central  Division Engineer confirmed previous



 instructions that all districts responsible for operation



 of Corps-owned vessels would observe the following



 instructions;



            a.  Dispose  of  trash  by means of incineration



or accumulation and disposal ashore.



            b.  Dispose of garbage  by grinding and passing

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                   Colonel Bruce                     915



 through an approved sewage disposal system, incinera-



 tion,  or collection and disposal ashore.



             The Public Health Service report recognized



 that another of the hopper dredges, also  operating in the



 Detroit River in October, 1963, had installed an



 improved system of trash and garbage disposal aboard.



 Their observations were:



             "a.  Trash is incinerated on  board.



             "b.  The garbage is macerated in a garbage



 grinder located in the ship's galley prior to disposal



 into th@ Detroit River.



             "c.  Material that will not go through the



 garbage grinder and cannot be Incinerated, such as



 tin cans and bottles, is disposed of by hand carried



by the cook's mate to the diked area inside the Grassy



 Island dumping grounds."



             Similar trash and garbage disposal equipment



 is planned for other hopper dredges, but  some delay has



 been Justified by doubts concerning suitability of



 equipment available.  Funds are programmed for the fiscal



 year 1966 to Install trash and garbage disposal equipment



 on other dredges.



             The second ggPHS Recommendation was:  "2.



 Install  aboard ship suitable treatment units to

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                  Colonel  Bruce                       916



 adequately dispose  of all sanitary wastes  including



 trash, garbage  and  human  excreta."



             The observation on  which this  has  been



 based has  been  covered in part,  at least,  in the



 presentation of the preceding observation.



             In  addition,  and quoting from  the  report:



 "There were no  sanitary facilities aboard  the  dredge."



 This was based  on observation on October,  1963*  Dredge



 Lyraan, also applied to Dredge Hains "except  for  the



 common marine toilet,  there was  no treatment of  waste



 or  chlorination."



             Detroit District Comment:   The  observation



 describes  a practice which has been common on  Great



 Lakes vessels of all sizes and  types. The  Corps  of



 Engineers  concurs that improvement is desirable, and



 that it is  reasonable  to  expect  Federal agencies to lead



 the way.   The North Central Division of the  Corps  of



 Engineers,  our  next higher headquarters, has programmed



 funds for  the fiscal year 1966 for the design  and



 installation of sewage disposal  systems on all Items of



 floating plant  where flush toilets are used.



             The  third  USPHS Recommendation:    "3-   Closer



control be  exercised to minimize  the loss  of dredge



material from the hoppers while proceeding to  the

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                   Colonel Bruce                     917



 dumping grounds."



             The  USPHS Observation on which this was based



 is: While  traveling down the Detroit River (Oct. 1963



 Dredge  Hains), a trail of turbid water was noted behind



 the ship.   No reasonable explanation was  given of why



 this  occurred except to say that it  could not  be helped.



             Our  Detroit District Comment  is that:



 Reasonable efforts are always made to avoid loss



 enroute to the disposal ground  of any material carried



 by the  dredge.   The probable source  of the turbidity



 reported is loss via the overflow ports of small portions



 of the  very fluid  material in the bins which may occur



 in response to any slight pitch or roll of the vessel.



 This  may produce some discoloration,  but  should be of



 minor consequence, since only suspended particles would



 be lost.  Increased efforts are being made during the



 current dredging season to verify the source of any



 turbidity  observed, and to take appropriate corrective



 measures.



             The  fourth USPHS Recommendation:  "4.   A



 vigorous attempt be made by the Corps of  Engineers



 to reduce  the amount of dredging with action leading



 to reduction of  discharge of settleable material by



increasing the charges  to  polluters for removing the

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               Colonel Bruce                        918
material commensurate with the damages to water uses
incurred.  It Is believed that It was not the Intent of
Congress that such dredging operations should provide
a method of disposal of solid material deposited by
individuals or corporations in navigable streams.  It
is desirable not only that dredged channels be maintained,
but that every means possible be taken to keep the cost
of such maintenance to a minimum."
            USFHS Observation;   We found no specific
observation on which the recommendation is based, but
this recommendation does recognize that some wastes
from industrial plants are discharged into authorized
Federal navigation channels, and that such wastes may
later be removed by dredging.
            Our Detroit District Comment related to that
recommendation is: The geographic scope of this
recommendation is much broader than the area for which
the Detroit District is responsible. To my knowledge,
the Corps has vigorously enforced this statute, which
is also provided under 33 407.
            In the Detroit District, industries concerned
have been cooperative, and we have experienced few problems
in collecting for Increased dredging costs which result
from removal of industrial wastes from navigation channels.

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             Colonel Bruce



            Some districts have encountered opposition.



In the so-called "flue dust cases" at Chicago in the late



1950s, litigation was Instigated by the Corps of



Engineers, in cooperation with the Department of



Justice. The litigation continued for several years in



Federal courts.



            Steel companies challenged the right of the



Government to make any collection for increased dredging



costs under this statute.  The Government was successful



in the lower Federal Court, was reversed by the Court of



Appeals, and finally won the right to demand collection



in the United States Supreme Court.   Those cases held,



however  that recovery of the damages by the Government



would be strictly limited to instances where there was



proof of increased costs of dredging due to industrial



solids.   Where such proof can be clearly established,



appropriate charges are made.



            The Public Health Service report "agrees



that, in general, the present maintenance dredging opera-



tion procedure on the Rouge and Raisin Rivers constitutes



an acceptable means of disposing of dredge material."



            I thank the Public Health Service for this



recognition of acceptable procedure.  Too often such



reports recognize the errors and faults and fail to



recognize those things which are done well or in an

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                                                        920




                     Colonel Bruce




acceptable manner.  I assure them, and you, that the




Corps of Engineers desires to equip its plant and to




conduct its operations in a manner which will help to




improve the quality of our water resources.




            Thank you for this opportunity to comment




on the observations and recommendations contained in the




USPHS report.
33 U.S.C. 407 - DEPOSIT OF REFUSE IN NAVIGABLE WATERS




GENERALLY (Section 13 of the River and Harbor Act




approved 3 March 1899, as amended )




            It shall not be lawful to throw, discharge,




or deposit, or cause, suffer, or procure to be thrown,




discharged or deposited either from out of any ship,




barge, or other floating craft of any kind, or from the shore,




wharf, manufacturing establishment, or mill of any kind,




any refuse matter of any kind of description whatever




other than that flowing from streets and sewers and passing




therefrom in a liquid state, into any navigable water of




the United States, or into any tributary of any navi-




gable water from which the same shall float or be washed




into such navigable water; and it shall not be lawful




to deposit, or cause, suffer , or procure to be deposited




material of any kind in any place on the bank of any

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                   Colonel Bruce                    921

navigable water, or on the bank of any tributary of

any navigable water, where the same shall be liable

to be washed Into such navigable water, either by or-

dinary or high tides, or by storms or floods, or other-

wise, whereby navigation shall or may be Impeded or

obstructed:  Provided, That nothing herein contained

shall extend to, apply to, or prohibit the operations

in connection with the Improvement of navigable waters

or construction of public works, considered necessary

and proper by the United States officers supervising

such Improvement or public* work:  And provided further,

That the Secretary of the Army whenever, in the Judgment

of the Chief of Engineers, Anchorage and navigation

will not be injured thereby, may permit the deposit of

any material above mentioned in navigable waters,

tiLthin limits to be defined and under conditions to be

prescribed by him, provided application is made to him

prior to depositing such material; and whenever any permit

is so granted the conditions thereof shall be strictly

complied with; and any violation thereof shall be unlawful,

Note:  Oil discharged from vessel into navigable water of
the United States held "refuse matter" within above
statute and hence vessel committing such offense was
liable for penalty provided by statute. (L. A. Marced.
Circuit Court Appeals, Washington, 84 Fed. 2nd 444.)

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                                                      922
                  Col. E. C. Bruce
             MR. STEIN:  Thank you very much, Colonel.
             Axe there any comments or questions?
             MR. POSTON:  I have one observation here.
             On Page 5, where you were talking about
dredging material and hauling it from navigational chan-
nels, this appears to me to be kind of a permit to a
polluter or a discharger of waste to discharge to a water
course, and, for a fee, they can have this waste trans-
ferred to other locations in the waterways, and, in the
case of organic materials, certainly to pollute other
sections of our water.
             I think that the Conferees here should con-
sider recommendations that would require organic mater-
ials to be either put in the land surface or be in an
enclosed dike area, where they would not interfere with
water use by some sediment or otherwise.
             How would this affect the Corps of Engineers
operation?
             COLONEL BRUCE:  Off the cuff, I would think
it would have relatively little effect on us, although
it could have a slight advantage to the degree that it
reduced our maintenance requirements.
             I feel sure that we would have no authority
to require such actions under the statutes which we

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                                                       923
                  Col. E. C. Bruce
enforce.
             MR. POSTON:  I think one other point I had
was on Page 4.  I presumed, but I didn't want to take it
for granted, that where you said that the design installa-
tions included disposal systems in all your equipment,
that meant that you would provide an accepted treatment
device?  When you said "included disposal systems," that
meant it would include an acceptable treatment device?
             COLONEL BRUCE:  Yes, sir, it does include
treatment.
             MR. POSTON:  That is all 1 have.
             MR. STEIN:  Thank you.
             Are there any further comments?
             MR. OEMING:  No.
             MR. STEIN:  I would like to point out, Mr.
Poston, that the Corps of Engineers, as you know, has
always been a very cooperative agency with us in pollu-
tion control.  Since we have the question here of the
discharge of wastes into any public waters or navigable
waters, the Corps' mission is to maintain these waters
for navigation, and once the waste gets in there and
interferes with navigation and they have to take it away,
they do.
             I think they have made  a real  effort  to

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                                                        924
                  Col. E. C.  Bruce
protect the interests of the United States in these cases
that he talks about, at the incurrence of an additional
cost.
             But 1 do think, Colonel, that we also know
of this problem of the discharge of waste that the Corps
picks up and moves somewhere else, which is getting in-
creased attention from the Congress.  It is just not
related to this action here, but we have, within the past
few days, been getting numerous inquiries from the Con-
gress about the appropriateness of having the Corps pick
up the discharge of waste and dump it somewhere else,
and I suspect there may be some legislative action on
that.
             MR. POSTON:  Mr. Chairman, I would like to
make it clear that we have always gotten along very well
with the Corps of Engineers.  We have a very friendly
relationship with them, and we have found them very
cooperative.
             MR. STEIN:  I hope so, because we and the
Corps go before the same committees of Congress, and we
never want to get crossed up.
             However, there is one more point to be made
on the discharge of wastes from vessels.  Mr. Harlow
showed us a picture yesterday of that waste coming out

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                                                        925
                  Col. E. C. Bruce
of the vessel,
             I realize that this very well may be minor
and that you could take corrective action, but there was
one sentence in there that it should be of minor conse-
quence since only suspended solids would be lost.
             I do think, if I read this report correctly,
that the investigators have been concerned with suspended
material as well as settleable material.
             For example, in their recommendations, their
first recommendation talks about effluent not to exceed,
and this goes in general for the whole area, a suspended
solids concentration of 35 mg/1, and a settleable solids
concentration of 5 mg/1, so 1 do think that in specific
cases, just theoretically, we are interested in the dis-
posal of suspended solids as well as settleable solidse
             This is not to say that what was coming out
of that boat may just not be a minor problem — I don't
know -- or that it can't be corrected, but just by virtue
of it being suspended solids, we would not automatically
consider it no problem.
             COLONEL BRUCE:  I think we are in agreement.
             MR. STEIN:  Yes.
             COLONEL BRUCE:  I didn't mean to imply other-
wise.  Compared to other material being  carried  by the

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                                                       926
                  Col. E. C. Bruce
dredge, it is of lesser consequence.
             This does not mean that it is not significant
and that we will not take reasonable efforts to improve
this.
             MR. STEIN:  Thank you, Colonel.
             COLONEL BRUCE:  Yes, 3ir.  Thank you.
             MR. STEIN:  Are there any further questions?
             MR. POSTON:  No.
             MR. STEIN:  Thank you, Colonel.
             Mr. Poston?
             MR. POSTON:  The U. S. Navy is represented
here by Lieutenant Maurice S. Power, and he would like to
make a statement at this time.
             Lieutenant Power.

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                                                      927
                  Lieut.  M.  S.  Power

             STATEMENT OF LIEUTENANT  MAURICE
             S.  POWER, ASSISTANT  PUBLIC WORKS
             OFFICER, U.  S.  NAVAL AIR STATION,
                  GROSSE  ILE, MICHIGAN

             LIEUT.  POWER:   I am  Lieutenant  Power  from
the  Naval Air  Station in  Grosse lie,  where I am Assistant
Public Works Officer.
             I would like to make the following state-
ment:
             In  the  April 1965  FINDINGS of the U.  S.
Public Health  Service, recommendations are made for
improved Waste Disposal Practices at  the Naval Air
Station, Grosse  lie, Michigan.
             The Naval Air Station concurs with the
recommendations  and  is cooperating to the maximum  ex-
tent in implementing the  recommendations.
             Pages 120 and 121  of the FINDINGS contain
nine (9) recommendations  for improvements to the Naval
Air Station's  Sewage Treatment  Practices.  Recommenda-
tions 1 through  6 therein deal  with improved plant
operating procedures and  have been implemented.  Recom-
mendation 7 requires continuous year  round chlorination

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                                                       928
                  Lieut* M. S. Power
of the plant effluent.  This recommendation has been
implemented*  Recommendation 8 requires installation
of on Aerobic Digestion Sewage treatment unit at the
station boat dock and has been implemented*  Recommenda-
tion 9, for either (1) connection to the Grosse lie
municipal collection system or C2) enlargement of the
station sewage plant to include secondary treatment,
is proposed by the Public Health Service in the event
that Naval Air Station, Grosse lie does not close as
scheduled on 1 September 1967.
             Current plans still call for the closing
of the station by September 1967, so this recommendation
will probably not be implemented.
             Pages 123 and 124 of the FINDINGS contain
a recommendation that the Naval Air Station install an
oil separator on its storm water outfall line to reduce
the concentration of oil from aircraft washing operation
reaching Frenchman's Creek.  The Naval Air Station is
now working with the Public Health Service to determine
the degree of chemical treatment required.  It is ex-
pected that this determination will be made during June.
If so, the station will request funds for an oil sepa-
rator facility during June 1965.
             The Naval Air Station, Grosse lie wishes  to

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                                                        929
                  Lieut. M. S. Power
thank the Public Health Service for the cooperation and
technical assistance they have given in helping to
implement the recommendations.
             Thank you.
             MR. STEIN:  Thank you very much, Lieutenant.
             Are there any comments or questions?
             MR. POSTON:  I have one, if I may.
             MR. STEIN:  Surely.
             MRo POSTON:  I think you can see that our
crew at Grosse lie, who has been used by the Navy, has
done a good job of selling on the Navy on their feeling
for water pollution abatement.
             I think we should give the Navy our thanks
for the assistance that they have given in many ways,
such as taking pictures, assistance with our boats,
storage of equipment, and provision of laboratory fa-
cilities and office space.
             LIEUT. POWER:  Thank you.
             MR. POSTON:  Thank you.
             MR. STEIN:  Lieutenant, I am not directing
this at you, but saying this for the record and to com-
mend you, because I am sure that this is a problem that
you are probably not directly concerned with in your
capacity there, but the vexing problem of phasing out

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                                                      930
                  Lieut. M. S. Power
of a military installation and deferring the recommenda-
tion for treatment is always a hard one.
             If the installation phases out and closes,
obviously you don't want the treatment or you shouldn't
spend the taxpayer's money for it.
             However, experience has shown that announced
plans that military installations are phasing out don't
always occur in time.  Some of these installations, to
quote another military man, "just seem to fade away."
It takes years to phase them out.
             I think with that kind of recommendation
on our Federal installation program, we are going to
have to watch very closely —- and I think this is s
quarters job and not one for you, the notion of
phasing out, but I think that if the plans are
of course the recommendations of our people will still
hold?
             LIEUT. POWER:  Yes, it will.
             MR. STEIN:  Thank you.
             LIEUT. POWER:  Thank you.
             MR. STEIN:  At this time I would like to
announce what our program is going to be.
             We are going to have clarifying questions
and probing questions$ I suspect, by the Conferees to

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                                                        931
                  Murray  Stein

the people who delivered  the report  for  the  Federal

Government, Mr. Barlow and Mr. Vaughan.

             At the  conclusion of that,  the  Michigan

Water Resources Commission will present  its  report,

and we will have a statement by the  Michigan Department

of Conservation, and other State agencies of Michigan.

             It is expected that the questioning  of

the Federal investigators and the presentation of the

reports by the State of Michigan will take most of the

day.

             Tomorrow we  will resume again,  we expect,

with invitees from the State of Michigan.

             With that, 1 would like to  ask  both  Mr.

Vaughan and Mr. Harlow to get over to the rostrum, and

we will open the questioning.

             For the purpose of the  record,  we have Mr.

Richard Vaughan and  Mr. George Harlow, who presented

the report for the Federal Government yesterday at the

rostrum.

             Mr. Oeming,  do you have any questions?

             MR. OEMING:  Yes, Mr. Chairman  and Mr.

Poston.  I have a series  of questions here that have

been developed --

             MR. STEIN:   By the way, this is Mr.  Nicholas

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                                                         932
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
Olds, who is a long time colleague, and a member of the
Attorney General's staff of Michigan.
             I think one of the points that might have
been mentioned when the Corps of Engineers representative
was here, and I think Mr. Olds has consulted with him, is
that the largest cost of this dredging comes from natural
sedimentation,.  This is something which should be recog-
nized to put this into perspective.
             When you see the Corps of Engineers out
here dredging, most of the time the material they are
picking up is not material that has been put there by
industrial or municipal operations, but has just run
off through siltation, and so forth.  I think this is
correct, and the record should show that.
             Thank you, Mr. Olds.
             Mr. Oeming?
             MR. OEMING:  Mr. Chairman, to resume, I am
prepared to ask a series of questions that have been
developed after close study of the Federal report, both
the Findings section and the Summary and Conclusions
section, by members of the Water Resources Commission
staff and the State Department of Health.
             These questions are presented here for the
purpose of aiding the State agencies, the Water Resources

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                                                       933
             R.  D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
Conmission and other member agencies, in  any  action  that
may be undertaken as the result of the  submission  of
this report and the conclusion of this  conference.
             It appears necessary to us to obtain  some
clarification here of some items that I am sure the  men
who prepared this report are in a position to answer
and to clarify for the record.
             MR. STEIN:  Mr. Oeming, in addition to  these
two men up here, as you know, we have in  the  audience
several specialists, biologists, bacteriologists,  chem-
ists, and so forth.  I want these two men to  feel  free,
if there is any question, to call on your experts  and
have those men come up, so the Conferees  may  have  the
benefit of the advice and the comments  of the specialists
in the area.
             MR. HARLOW:  Would you want  us to call  on
these men?
             MR. STEIN:  Just on an ad  hoc basis,  as you
feel it is necessary, but you call on them.
             In other words, if you feel  that a question
may better be answered by one of the experts  in the
audience, call the expert up, and I think we  can save
time that way.  Let's not try to answer it if you  need
their help.

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                                                       934
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow

             MR. POSTON:  I might add, Mr. Chairman,

that these experts that Mr. Stein speaks of were con-

sultants to the Project and are familiar with the ways

that the studies were carried out, and did consult with

Mr. Vaughan and Mr. Harlow pertaining to the reporto

             MR» OEMING:  I believe, Mr. Chairman, that

most of the questions that I have are well within the

purview of these two gentlemen, and I donrt see much

need to go beyond, except perhaps in one specific area.

             With this introduction, Mr. Chairman, and

I hope I have made it clear, the purpose of this ques-

tioning here is to provide aid to the State agencies

and to assist them in whatever follow-up action comes

out of this conference.

             I want to address myself, first of all, to

the Summary, Conclusions and Recommendations section of

the report.

             The report states, on Page 1, that "declin-

ing levels of dissolved oxygen in the lower Detroit

River as it enters Lake Erie are approaching the danger

point indicating trouble in the future unless appropriate

remedial action is taken."

             Would you tell me what this means, specific-

ally with reference to the present levels?  Are the

-------
                                                       935




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




present levels satisfactory?




             Perhaps you had better take that  first,



rather than be asked a multiple question here,  so that



we will not get confused.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  1 wouldn't say personally that



1 am not satisfied with them, but I will say that we have



found that they did not interfere with water uses at the




present time.



             MR. OEMING:  In other words, may  I ask this



question then as a follow-up?




             Isn't it true that in most cases,  in pollu-



tion investigations, where multiple use is contemplated,



including a waste disposal use, and isn't it a commonly



accepted criteria or objective to maintain about 5 ppm



as the level of oxygen in these streams?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, if you want me to answer



that from my own experience and desires, I don't know




what the common practice is this way.  I know  we wanted



to evolve a plan that would give maximum protection in



the future, and counteract the problem we feel  is im-




pending and now poses an immediate future threat to the




water resource of the area.



             We don't like to compute the maximum amount




a river or a stream can be  polluted.  We would rather

-------
                                                        936
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
think of it in how good we can get it.
             MR. OEMING:  You are not then dealing in
any specific value of oxygen that ought to be an objec-
tive in these waters?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  We think if it was below 5,
we would be more concerned.  That is true.
             MR. OEMING:  Perhaps you think you have
answered this, but, as I understand it, there is no
interference now with lawful uses of the river at 5 ppm
of dissolved oxygen?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is correct, yes.
             MR. OEMING:  Isn't this about the figure
that you found as the minimum in the river?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is correct.
             MR. OEMING:  At the mouth of the river?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is correct.
             MR. OEMING:  In what way then is trouble
indicated in the future?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, we feel right now we
are right at the level where any future industrial or
population growth in Detroit will cause future decline
of oxygen levels in the Detroit River and the Michigan
waters of Lake Erie, unless additional treatment or
appropriate action is taken.

-------
                                                        937
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
             MR. OEMING:  So you are concerned with what
might happen in the future, more than you are with what
is happening at the present time with respect to oxygen?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  In this case, yes.  We do
consider it right now a threat to the future usage of
the water.
             MR. STEIN:  I know Mr. Poston wants to make
a comment.
             The only thing I would like to do now is
to call attention to the Federal law, which may be
slightly different from the Michigan law.  Under the
Federal law, any pollution which endangers -- and this
is the key word -- which endangers health or welfare
of persons, is subject to abatement.
             We have been over this many times in various
cases.   "Endangers" means to put in peril, to create a
hazard.
             I just ask you to look at that in the way
that the Federal investigators, operating under the
Federal law, would consider their obligations and duties.
             Mr. Poston?
             MR. POSTON:  I have nothing.
             MR. OEMING:  I think the purpose of this

-------
                                                      938




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



question, Mr. Stein, is not to examine into the Federal



law, but to differentiate between what is the problem



today and what may be a problem in the future.



             MR. STEIN:  Again, because I do think this



is a key point on this issue, I want to give you this



in this sense.  As you know, my mind is completely open



on this operation, but under the Federal law, as I under-



stand it, when health or welfare is endangered or put



in peril, we consider that the problem today.



             I think this is a familiar concept in law,



where we have an assault and battery.  If you were sit-



ting here on the stage with a big weight hanging by a



thread over your head, and it hadn't fallen down and



crushed your skull, I would think we have a problem



right now for your safety.



             MR. OEMING:  Let me see if there is some-



thing hanging over me now.  That's a pretty apt



simile, I would say.




                    (Laughter.)



             MR. STEIN:  I have heard of people looking



for things under the bed, but this is the first time



I knew that they looked in the wings of a theater.




             MR. OEMING:  Could we go on?



             MR. STEIN:  Yes.

-------
                                                        939




             R, D. Vaughan  and G. L.  Harlow



             MR. OEHING:  All right.   In  the  first  para-



graph of Page  2, the  statement is made that in  order  to



maintain navigation,  extensive annual dredging  is re-



quired at the  junction  of the Detroit and Rouge Rivers



and at the mouths  of  the Detroit and  Raisin Rivers  to



remove deposits of suspended solids in large  part originat-



ing in municipal and  industrial waste discharges.



             Do you find that?



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes.



             MR. QEMING:  The six county  report on  sew-



age disposal problems on Page 21 quotes & letter from



the Corps of Engineers  dated July 24, 1964, and the



quotation is:  '"The Detroit River from Zug  Island to



the lower end  of Bois Blanc Island has a  history of



little or no deposition in  either the through channel



(Fighting Island)  or  the Trenton Channel,"



             It is also stated that dredging  occurs



annually in the lower Livingston Channel  and  the East



Outer Channel, the dredged  material consisting  of silty



sand.



             The question here refers specifically  to



the mouth of the Detroit River and the material that



you have found, and the difference here between what  you



have found and what  the Corps  of Engineers states.

-------
                                                       940




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             Would you comment on this, please?



             MR, HARLOW:  If I can, Mr. Oeming.



             Our report shows, if you will refer to the




graph opposite Page 220 —



             MR. STEIN:  For the record, where you speak




of those higher numbers, you are speaking of the Find-



ings, the second volume of the report?



             MR. HARLOW:  Yes.



             MR. STEIN:  Would you refer to that for



the purposes of the record, and differentiate between



the two volumes?



             MR. HARLOW:  I am referring to the Findings,



the larger volume of the Public Health Service report.



             In the area shown by the dark shaded color,



the portion of that that is in the East Outer Channel,



our results indicate that this material is of a degraded



condition and is not what I would define as a silty sand.



             By "a degraded condition," I might point




out that our observation showed that in this area of



the dark shaded color, the bottom deposits were of or-



ganic or of other material having a black oily appear-



ance, and an odor of oil or sewerage.



             MR. OEMING:  Was this in the Livingston



Channel?

-------
              R.  D.  Vaughan and G.  L.  Harlow



              MR.  HARLOW:   This was in the East Outer



 Channel  and  not  in  the Livingston  Channel,




              I think in the water  use inventory,  our



 report speaks that  in the Livingston  Channel,  this is




 primarily dike material that falls into the channel,



 and  this type of material has to be removed by the



 Corps of Engineers.




              MR.  OEMING:   Isn't this  in the Canadian




 waters?



              MR.  HARLOW:   The Livingston Channel  is.



 The  East Outer Channel is in American waters.



              MR,  OEMING:   Is this  subject to discharges



 from Canada?



              MR.  HARLOW:   Yes.



              MRo  OEMING:   As well  as  the United States?




              MR.  HARLOW:   As well  as  the United States.




              MR.  OEMING:   Well, as a  matter of fact,



 there is a difference then in the  manner in which you




 have expressed yourself and the manner in which the



 Corps of Engineers  expresses itself,  in its interpreta-




 tion of  what it  finds;  isn't that  so?




              MR.  HARLOW:   That is  true, but I  would




 point out  here,  however,  that the  Corps of  Engineers




probably --  I do not  know -- does  not make  a chemical

-------
                                                       942
              R.  D.  Vaughan and G.  L.  Harlow
 analysis of this material  that  they remove.
              We  did  observe it  from a chemical  nature,
 and made these conclusions.   I  might point out  also that
 the material that  is removed  by the Corps of Engineers
 is partly due to the material already  in suspension com-
 ing down the river,  and not  associated altogether  with
 waste material.
              Some  of the material that is removed,  how-
 ever,  we showed  to be waste material.
              MR. OEMING:   Do  you have  any questions?
              MR. STEIN:  No.  I am  a little  confused.
              Were  you and  the Corps of Engineers re-
 ferring  to exactly the same area and exactly the same
 material?
              The answer is what?  Is it the  same area?
              MR. HARLOW:  The Corps of Engineers report,
 if I  am  aware of what they are  referring to,  just men-
 tioned,  I  think, the  lower Livingston  Channel and  the
 East  Outer  Channel,  which  is  a  large stretch of water-
 way.
              MR. STEIN:  Where  was  your material taken?
              MR. HARLOW:   Our material was taken very
 close  to the  Detroit River Light in the East Outer
Channel.

-------
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             MR. STEIN:  In other words, you very well  --



I am just asking this for clarification.  I am not  sure




that you are referring to exactly the same area where



you took the material.




             MR. HARLOW:  You could never be sure that



the Corps of Engineers is referring to the exact area.



             MR. STEIN:  Were you in a slightly differ-



ent area?




             MR. HARLOW:  In my opinion, it would be



the same area, as far as the East Outer Channel is  con-




cerned.



             MR. STEIN:  In your opinion, were you  taking



the same kind of material as the Corps, or was your




material a little bit different?



             MR. HARLOW:  No; I would imagine it was



the same material.




             MR. STEIN:  What do you attribute the  dif-



ference to, your method of analysis and the Corps'




observation, or what?



             MR. HARLOW:  I really can't say on what




basis the Corps of Engineers make their analysis.



             MR. STEIN:  On which basis did you make




yours?




             MR. HARLOW:  I have heard this mentioned

-------
                                                        944





             R. D. Vaughan and G. i. Harlow



before, that the Corps of Engineers quite often classi-



fies this material as "silty sand,11 and this even applies



to the material they obtained from the Rouge River,



which is highly organic and of a polluted nature.  They




called it "silty sand sludge."



             MR. STEIN:  On what basis did you make yours?



             MR. HARLOW:  On chemical observation, chemi-




cal analysis, odor, appearance of organisms, indicating



a degraded condition, and methods of this sort.



             MR. OEMING:  May I go on?



             MR. STEIN:  Yes, sir.



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 2, Paragraph 5, the



report states that concentrations of chlorides, metals



toxic to fish life in minute concentrations and suspended



solids in the lake portend future problems in various



water uses.




             In what way are future water uses threatened



if concentrations remain at present levels?




             I think, Mr. Chairman, this asks the ques-



tion in a little better way so you don't get involved.



We want to know what it is now.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  If there is no growth or



industrial development, the answer is in no way it does,



but we are assuming that there would be.

-------
                                                        945




              R.  D.  Vaughan and  G.  L.  Harlow



              This is  a problem  that is  a little farther



off  in  the  future,  I  might add,  than the dissolved



oxygen  problem.



              MR. OEMING:   All right.



              On  Page  2 of  the Summary,  it is  stated  that



a bacteriological standard frequently accepted  as  safe



for  recreation is 1,000 per 100  ml,  and that  the recom-



mendations  in this  report  are based  on  that standard.



A similar statement is found in  the  Findings.



              On  what  factual basis is such a  standard



predicated, and  specifically to  what  classes  of aquatic



recreational  activities should such  a standard  apply,



in your judgment?



              There  are two questions  here.  What is  the



basis for the 1,000 index,  first of all?



              MR. HARLOW:   Mr. Oeming, this basis,  I



think — it is a generally accepted figure, commonly



in use  throughout the  country, and we used this  figure



by searching  through the literature,  and  came up with



a general consensus that this was  the figure  that  has



been set and  has been  applied in many cases,  and used



to a great effectiveness for water recreational uses,



water contact sports.



              MR. STEIN:  I just  have  one  comment on

-------
                                                         946
              R.  D.  Vaughan and G.  L.  Harlow



 this,  unless  you want to call  one  of  your bacteriolo-



 gists  for  the basis figure,  but several  weeks ago we had



 finished a conference in Chicago on the  lower end of



 Lake Michigan, and  both the  State  agencies representing



 Indiana and Illinois, Mr.  Gladstone and  Mr.  Poole, and



 the Federal Government agreed  on this 1,000 figure for



 water  contact at bathing beaches.



              I just give you this  as  what seems  to be



 accepted by the  scientists.



              MR.  OEMING:  Of course,  the same question



 would  apply there.   What basis did they  have?



              MR.  STEIN:   This  doesn't answer the basis.



              MR.  OEMING:  No0



              MR.  STEIN:   Do  you feel  you —



              MR.  OEMING:  He has answered the question,



 as  far as  I am concerned.




              MR.  STEIN:   All right.   Do  you want him to



 call the bacteriologist?



              MR.  OEMING:  No.




              MR.  STEIN:   All right.




              MR.  OEMING:  In the Findings, you covered



 quite  a little on the effect on the river of combined



 sewer  overflows,  and you also  did  quite  a little work



on the  Allen  Creek  Drain in  Ann Arbor, which is  a

-------
             R. D. Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Harlow



separated system, in which  storm water  is  separated  from



the sewage.




             My question  is,  considering the bacterio-



logical quality of surface  waters  collected by  the Allen



Creek Drain in Ann Arbor  as documented  in  the Findings



(Pages 195-197), and the  nature of the  Detroit  Metro-




politan area watershed, what  concentration of coliform



organisms might be expected from these  sources  alone in



the discharge from storm  sewers systems and directly



from land runoff areas to the Detroit River?



             MR. VAUGHAN:   You  are presupposing,  just



for a minute, that they had separate  storm sewers in



Detroit right now?



             MR. OEMING:  Either that,  or  else  that  you



would stop the overflows, and you  had just surface run-



off from the streets, and so  forth, and land area.



             MR. VAUGHAN:   And  also,  for this discussion,




would you say that the other  treatment  recommendations




were carried out?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. VAUGHAN:   Okay?




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.



             MR. VAUGHAN:   I  would say  that following




heavy rainfall, it would  still  be  likely that there  would

-------
                                                       948
              R.  D,  Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Harlow




 be  coliform densities  in  the  river that  are above 1,000.




 They would  be far  less, however, than they  are today,




 but without additional treatment they would still,  in




 all likelihood,  be above  1,000.




              MR. OEMING:  Putting  it  another way, Mr.




 Vaughan,  if you  were to try to  meet the  1,000 index




 at  all  times,  100  percent of  the times,  you would have




 to  treat  surface runoff as  well as combined sewer over-




 flows,  wouldn't  you?




              MR. VAUGHAN:   I  would say that you have




 to  treat  either  combined  waste, if you had  it,  or if




 you separated  you  would probably still have to  treat it




 in  this case,  because  of  the  magnitude of it.




              MR. OEMING:  During periods of prolonged




 and extensive  runoff in the Raisin River, Stony Creek,




 Swan Creek  and Sandy Creek drainage basins,  what  water




 quality,  bacteriologically, can be expected dependably




 at  Sterling State  Park, provided that  all recommenda-




 tions of  the report are met?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  In this case, it would be




 somewhat  similar.  There  would probably be  coliform




 concentrations in this land drainage  that would affect




 water quality  at Sterling State Park  if all these




recommendations  were taken  out.

-------
                                                     949





             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             First of all, the counts would not be  as



high, and the public health significance of this would




be much lower.




             MR. STEIN:  Would you remember to talk



into the mike?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Was that heard?



             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  Go on from there.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  I'm sorry.  Just to reiter-




ate, the counts after a heavy rain could be high in




coliform concentration.  We feel that the public health



significance of this would be far less, because of  the



origin of the coliform organisms.



             MR. OEMING:  I don't want to pursue this



too long here, but are we dealing with an absolute



figure of 1,000, or are we dealing with some variation




that would accommodate these increases, let us say  from



surface runoffs, that would not be considered as inter-




fering with the recreational use of the beaches on




Lake Erie?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  I think in making such a




judgment as this, you should take into consideration




not only the total coliform concentration, but also




the fecal coliform and fecal streptococci, which we




believe in those circumstances would be  far  less,  and

-------
                                                      950




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




also the origin or the known origin of the wastes.



             All these things should be taken into




consideration, and that is what I based my judgment



on, that in the example that you gave, although there



would be times when the total coliform might go above



1,000 -- no one can tell for sure — it is of far less



public health significance than the current situation.,



             MR.OEMING:  Well, doesn't this suggest to



you that the 1,000 coliform index should be enlarged



upon and include fecal coliforms and fecal strepto-



cocci then, if you are going to exercise judgment here,



and depending upon your sanitary survey, if this coli-



form increases because of surface drainage only, and



now you have brought in another factor, haven't you?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.




             MR. OEMING:  So wouldn't your objective



need to include now fecal streptococci and fecal coli?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  I don't know if it should



or not.  We, of course, use it so that we have the best



information upon which to base our judgment.  Whether



or not everyone should use this, I am not at liberty



to say, or whether this should be incorporated into



some sort of regulatory order or not, I don't know.




             I can say that we have found it very useful

-------
                                                        951



             R. D. Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Harlow



in making  an engineering  or public health  judgment.



             MR. OEMING:  All right.



             MR. STEIN:   Let me see if  I can  understand



it.   1 think that has  been  very useful.



             As 1 understand it, what Mr.  Vaughan  and



Mr. Harlow have done is used this  1,000 to make recom-



mendations.  However,  they  have not proposed  this  as



a standard to be met inexorably and absolutely at  all



times.



             As 1 see  it, on the next page they have



their bacteriological  density standard of  5,000 per



100 ml.  In other words,  in developing their  recom-



mendations they used this as a  guide, but  if  one day



in a  year, or two days, or  whatever the point is,  it



goes  over  1,000 at a time,  they believe that  even  with



that, the  health and welfare of the people in the  area



using water contact sports  will be protected  as far



as quality of the water is  concerned.



             Is this the way you understand what they



have  said?



             MR. OEMING:  Well,  I  think in part, Mr.



Stein.  I  think what they are saying  to me is that



this  becomes a matter  of  a  sanitary survey.   You are




not guided entirely there by the 1,000  index.  You are

-------
                                                      952





              R.  D. Vaughan  and  G.  L0  Harlow



 guided  by other  factors  in  which you  exercise judgment?



              MR.  VAUGHAN:   We certainly  do.




              MR.  OEMING:  Yes.



              MR.  STEIN:  I  think they were  guided  in



 their recommendations  by a  1,000 index,  which they



 were working on.  I  don't think they  proposed 1,000



 as a test of dipping something  in  the water  anywhere



 up and  down  the  Detroit  River or Lake Erie,  and  if



 you find  something coming out significantly  over 1,000,



 like 1,500,  automatically you are  going  to throw up



 your hands in horror and say that  all the treatment



 facilities were  not  sufficient.




              MR.  OEMING:  I'm glad to hear you say



 that.   I'm glad  to hear  you say that.



              MR.  STEIN:  All right.



              MR.  OEMING:  The Summary recommends a



 degree  of treatment  be provided  capable  of producing



 specified effluent characteristics, notably  not  to



 exceed  35 mg/1 of suspended solids, 20 mg/1  of BOD,




 and  15  mg/1  of oil for the  Detroit and Wayne County



 sewage  treatment  plants, and I  guess  some others,



 gross algal  plants,  and now the  Trenton  and  Riverview



 plants  would  come under  this, wouldn't they? Is that



your  contention?

-------
                                                       953




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.



             MR. OEMING:  Concentrations of other speci-



fic constituents are listed for certain waste sources.




             At this point, I would like to ask you



just what you mean by the recommendation that secondary



treatment be provided?  What does this mean to you?




             Secondary treatment can mean lots of things,



and I just wondered what you have in mind to attain



these objectives.



             MR. HARLOW:  I think most sanitary engin-



eering practice in these days is based on the fact



that we consider secondary treatment as biological



treatment, and to remove a certain level of biochemical




oxygen demand.  The figure has been set with various



treatment devices between something like 75 and 90 or




95 percent BOD removal, but it is based on biological



treatment.



             MR. OEMING:  Now I am asking for your




judgment here as to what particular type of biological




treatment you would think would be feasible practice




in this area, in this particular situation where the




flows may range from 75 million gallons a day up to




3500 million gallons per d$y.




             MR. HARLOW:  Well,  in my  judgment,  based

-------
                                                       954




              R.  D.   Vaughan and G.  L.  Harlow




 on the situation here in the Detroit area,  and the



 problems that have  been encountered in regard to the




 pollution in the lower Detroit  River and the Michigan



 waters of Lake Erie, and based  on the  facilities that



 the City of Detroit would have  and  what needs to be



 done,  I would, in my judgment,  recommend that they



 install activating  sludge treatment.



              MR.  OEMING:  This  is what we are talking



 about  then specifically?



              MR.  HARLOW:  Yes.



              MR.  OEMING:  Some  type of activated sludge



 treatment?



              MR.  HARLOW:  In the desired goals,  I think



 this would probably be the best process.



              MR.  POSTON:  You didn't make a specific



 study  on this matter,  did you?




              MR.  HARLOW:  No, we did not recommend the



 type of secondary treatment.




              MR.  STEIN:   I understand  what  you mean,



 Mr.  Oeming,  but  I think this may be a  crucial point.




 Let's  see if I understand the report,  so that we can



 move ahead with  this.




              As  I get  this,  what we are largely in-




terested  in  in any  pollution control operation is the

-------
                                                     955




             R. D. Vaughan  and  G. L.  Harlow




quality of the waters  that  are  going  to  be used.   You



have  from 1 to 7, talking about suspended solids,




settleable solids, ammonia  concentrations, phenol,



oil,  biochemical oxygen demand,  and bacterial  densi-



ties.




             What you  have  indicated  is  that if this



is  achieved, then you  feel  that the water quality  will



be  such that we will have a maximum number of  water



uses;  isn't that correct?



             MR. HARLOW:  Not necessarily though,  be-



cause in the ones you  listed there, I don't believe



you mentioned the phosphate problem.



             MR. STEIN:  You didn't say  that.




             MR. HARLOW:  No specific recommendation



for that was made.



             MR. STEIN:  All right.   It  wasn't in  your




list  anyway, but that  is a  real good  point and I am



glad  you brought it up, because it should be included,




plus  a control of phosphates.



             If I understand it, you  believe that  this




type  of control would  give  an adequate water quality.




This  is one set of recommendations.




             Now your  judgment  here as an engineer is




that  secondary treatment, using activated sludge,  would

-------
                                                        956
              R.  D.  Vaughan and G.  L.  Harlow



 be probably the  best way of achieving that?




              MR* HARLOW:  Yes.



              MR. STEIN:   The point is,  though,  if this



 were achieved by secondary treatment  or its equivalent,



 it doesn't really make much difference  to a water



 pollution control official, as long as  the desired



 results come about;  is that correct?



              MR. HARLOW:  As long  as  we are abating



 pollution, any way  you go about getting it,  I'm for



 it.



              MR. STEIN:   Right.  All  right.



              MR. HARLOW:   But  in my judgment, I strong-



 ly think that the way to do it here is  with secondary



 treatment.




              MR.  STEIN:    Absolutely.   I want to make



 that distinction and  get the recommendation, because



 I  think if you thought the way to  do  it was  secondary



 treatment and you didn't put that  forward,  you  would




 not  be  carrying  out your functions as the investigator



 and  the expert.




              But I want  to make  the point that,  as I



 see  it,  this  breaks into two parts, one being the



 recommendation of what they think  the water  quality




is,  and the  second is their judgment  on how to  achieve

-------
                                                     957



             R. D. Vaughan  and G. L. Harlow



it.



             MR. OEMING:  Well, I get your point, Mr.



Stein.  All I am asking for is their judgment, the



practicalities of using one type of secondary treat-



ment versus another.



             Secondary treatment means a lot of dif-



ferent things to different  people, and certainly in



recommending secondary treatment, they must have had



something  in their minds here to do this job.



             MR. STEIN:  Are you people both in agree-



ment that  you are talking in terms of secondary treat-



ment meaning activated sludge biological treatment?



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes, we are.



             MR. STEIN:  Does that clarify it?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.  Now, going back to



these specific objectives,  we have cleared up this



matter of  treatment now.



             Are these specific effluent objectives



based on observed and known conditions in the receiv-



ing waters which can be attributed quantitatively to



each of the waste sources for which specific limita-



tions on effluent quality are recommended?



             Do you want to answer that question,




and then I have some other  questions?

-------
                                                      958




             R.  D. Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Harlow



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes.   In most  cases,  yes.



             MR. OEMING:  What  method was used to de-




 velop  the  specific limitations  recommended?



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Well,  they varied.  There




 are  two  general  ways though.



             MR. OEMING:  Aside from  coliforms,  because




 we have  discussed that.



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes.   In some  cases we found



 a certain  quantitative amount above and below waste



 sources.   Then we equated the amount  of waste con-



 stituents  in the outfalls,  and then computed a reduc-



 tion that  would  allow better water use.   In other



 cases  —




             MR. STEIN:  I'm sorry; I think you  should



 try  that again.  Maybe Mr.  Oeming understood you,  but



 for  the record I am not sure that that is quite  clear.



             MR. VAUGHAN:   All right.  We examined,



 of course, many waste constituents.   There is a  cer-



 tain amount, a quantity, pounds of this above sources



 of pollution.




             We found then  there were certain pounds



 below this source.  We examined the waste sources,



 and  we found there were a certain number  of pounds




in the waste sources.

-------
                                                       959



              R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




              We then computed the reduction in the



 waste sources that would be required to come up with




 what we felt was a maximum protection or pollution



 abatement downstream.




              There were some cases, however, and you




 may be speaking of solids, I think, but that was for



 everything but this, where we were concerned with



 material that settles out, and when we found damages



 due to this settled material on the bottom, we exam-



 ined all the wastes — and this is 1.6 billion gallons



 of waste — and found the settleable material and



 the suspended solids in this, and using the concept



 we think of economic feasibility of removal, we com-



 puted an amount that we thought that the plants could



 remove.



              In this particular case, as an example,



 we figured in our recommendations they could remove




 about 95 percent of the settleable material,  In




 this case, we deviated somewhat from the other pro-



cedure of effect on the river.



              MR. OEMING:  I missed that.  You deviated




 in some respects?



              MR. VAUGHAN:  From the solids standpoint,

-------
                                                      960



             R.  D.  Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Earlow



 yes.   Our  calculations  were there.



             MR. OEMING:  I see.   Well,  there are two




 related  questions here  then.  Could you  tell us here,



 or  at  sometime in the future, what improvement in



 water  quality may be expected by the  conformance with



 such limitations?   You  have this in mind.



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes, we have  it  on how much



 improvement in certain  of the constituents.



             In  the case of solids, instead  of how



 much in  the river,  we figure that  if  our recommenda-



 tions  are  followed, the large blanket of sludge de-



 posits from this deleterious material would  be greatly



 reduced, and I think totally eliminated.



             MR. OEMING:  How about the  values,  the



 water  uses, interest and values that  may be  protected?



 Would  you  expect that they  would be adequately pro-



 tected if  these recommendations are carried  out?



             MR. VAIJGHAN:   Yes, we would.




             MR. OEMING:  And there would be some



 improvement or extension of use also?




             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes.  Yes, we do.



             MR. OEMING:  There is a  related question



 here -- you touched on  it a little bit -- and this




has to do  with the  solids situation.

-------
                                                       961




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             You made the statement with respect to



the increase in suspended solids and settleable solids



that occurred in the Detroit River from the head to




the mouth.  What is the anticipated resultant increase



from the head to the mouth if the recommendations made




in this report are carried out?



             I have another related question, but will



you answer this first?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  I can go over it again, if



you wish.  We did not make this computation because



the things that have been brought out at this meeting



already, natural silt, complicates this issue.



             We did, however, make our computations



of the good that would come out of this, based upon




the reduction in the wastes themselves, after we



found that the settleable material from these wastes




were blanketing the bottom of the lower Detroit River



and Michigan Lake Erie.



             MR. OEMING:  The problem here that I




fear is that any calculations that we have been able




to make don't seem to tie up very well, and I am



trying to clarify this as to what basis you had for




selecting 35 mg/1 as against double this value.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.

-------
                                                    962




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             MR. OEMING:  Because one computation you



can make, which looks very reasonable, is that you



are improving the quality of the river; that is, what



you discharge is better from a suspended solids stand-




point than what you took out.



             MR. VAIJGHAN:  We are not against this,




of course, but our point is that in this thing, you



have two big variables.  You've got inert silt, which



has a different problem when it coats the bottom than



oil and iron material and industrial and domestic



waste sludge, and, secondly, this material, even both



the suspended and the settleable, is in the process



of changing as it goes down the river and settling



to the bottom, and the velocities in the upper part



of the river are such that a greater amount of this



would be kept in suspension than in the lower part.



             Because of these complications, we felt



that it would be a better approach, after we found



the damage in the lake and in the river, marinas,



etc., to compute the maximum reduction we could get,




based on economic feasibility, and that is how the



35 comes out.  We feel that the plants can meet this.




             MR. OEMING:  Even though you might have




the same settleable solids or suspended solids content

-------
                                                     963




             R« D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



after you get all through with this, you might still



have the same suspended solids content at the mouth



of the river as you have at the head of the river.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Perhaps so, but we are try-



ing to get rid of the deleterious industrial and domes-



tic wastes which are interfering with water uses on



the bottom, and this is our approach this way.



             MR. OEMING:  Do you have any questions?



             MR. STEIN:  No.



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 3, Paragraph 4, it



is stated that the recommendations are designed to



abate existing pollution, and also that it points



out areas where additional improvement in water qual-



ity will aid in the prevention of future problems.



             We are back to the same question again.



The question arises as to which and what part of the



recommendations are necessary to abate existing pol-



lution, and what parts are made for the prevention



of future problems?



             MR. HARLOW:  I think to clarify that



point, -as far as the future problems are concerned,



we are considering the impending dissolved oxygen



problem and the rising level of chlorides.




             From other standpoints, there  is  inter-

-------
             R. D, Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
ference occurring now.
             MR. OEMING:  The exceptions are between
what now?
             MR. HARLOW:  Chlorides and dissolved
oxygen.
             MR. OEMING:  I see.
             MR. VAUGHAN:  I might add we are still
concerned about these two things.
             MR. OEMING:  On Page 7 of the Summary,
it is stated that erratic control of coliform organ-
isms noted at several Detroit River sewage treatment
plants is not considered unusual when chlorination
is practiced following primary sewage treatment.
             It is not clear from the discussion in
the Findings of bacteriological control at the De-
troit, Wayne County plants how such a conclusion was
derived.  The statement in the Findings was that
bacteriological control was excellent during the
surveys, and the surveys indicate that effective bac-
terial control can be accomplished.
             Similar statements were made relative
to the Monroe Sewage Treatment Plant in the Lake
Erie section of the report.
             How do you resolve these two?

-------
                                                     965




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             MR. VAUGHAN:  I will be happy to clarify



this point.



             First of all, during the two and a half



years in which we were involved in field work, we




made several surveys of the plant with the State Health



Department.  These surveys lasted four days each, with




continuous sampling.



             It is during those surveys that I am



talking about that bacterial control was excellent,



and it was very excellent.



             During the two and a half year period,



and actually years before this, we examined the operat-



ing records of the actual plants, and found erratic



control that we mentioned.



             MR. OEMING:  I see.  Have you any ques-




tions?



             MR. STEIN:  No.  I have a comment though,




if you want it.



             MR. OEMING:  You're the Chairman.




             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  This seems to be very




typical to me.  We generally do find pretty good con-



trol when the cops are there looking, but when we




look at the records we find it a little more erratic.




             As a matter of fact, I drive my automobile

-------
                                                     966





             R. D, Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




the same way.



                    (Laughter.)



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 7, the last para-




graph, reference is made that "pollution endangers




the users of the domestic water supplies from the



Wyandotte intake and, at times, from the Southwest



intake of the City of Detroit."



             I think you modified this yesterday, and



I want to clear this up for sure.  You had in the



original report "in the event of a breakdown in the



water treatment facilities."



             First of all, did you modify this in the



report?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, we didn't read it in



the report.  We thought this was pfcobably obvious.



             I think there could be some misunder-



standing if your next question is going to be, "What



do you mean by a breakdown?"




             MR. OEMING:  You are anticipating my ques-



tion.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Go ahead.  I'm sorry.



             We did modify this to avoid just saying



something we thought was obvious.




             MR. OEMING:  That is, at any time?

-------
                                                     967




             R. D. Vaughan  and G. L.  Harlow




             MR. VAUGHAN:   Some irregularity,  or  some-



thing.




             MR. OEMING:  Do you know from  your ex-




amination of the records at these plants, at these




intakes -- I realize that the Southwest is  fairly



recent.




             MR. VAUGHAN:   Yes.



             MR. OEMING:  But Wyandotte has been  there



many years.  Do you know of any specific breakdowns



or any case in which inadequate water was pumped  out



of the system?



             MR. VAUGHAN:   No, I do not, and we have




looked.



             MR. OEMING:  Any comments?



             MR. STEIN:  No.  Do you  have any?



             MR. POSTON:  I have a comment.



             I heard this item come up about changes




in the report, and yesterday you made comment  about




changes in the report,



             I would like to ask Mr.  Vaughan:  Were




there changes in the report yesterday as read?  What



is the situation with regard to that?



             MR. VAUGHAN:   Well, actually the  majority




of the changes -- we designed a written report, or

-------
                                                     968




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




made an oral presentation in a somewhat different



manner than it is outlined there, to what we hoped



made a more palatable presentation, one that could



be listened to by the audience a little better.



             We feel, with one or two exceptions,




there really isn't any change in the report.  We did



add a little bit on one paragraph, and that has been




given for the record.



             MR. HARLOW:  As far as the recommendations



were concerned, the recommendations were only shifted



around for ease of reading, and there was not any



change in content.



             The one thing that was omitted yesterday



when I was reading, on Page 31, or the summary of



the recommendations, Mr, Vaughan thought I was going



to give it, and I thought he was going to give it.



             MR. STEIN:  Let me make this clear, to



be specific.




             In many of the industries, Mr. Harlow,



as I understood it, omitted reading over and over




again the reduction of wastes from suspended solids



and settleable solids, but he covered that by a



blanket statement at the beginning, to apply to all




the industries, and I suspect that some of the people

-------
                                                     9.69




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



may have missed that.  He did that in order to save



time.



             I always have these feelings about this.



I am not sure these shortcuts do save time.



             MR. OEMING:  Page 8, Paragraph 7 -- do



you have it?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.



             MR. OEMING:  It is stated that phenol



concentrations in the waters and bottom muds of the



Detroit River pose a threat to fish life.



             I would like to know, in what way do



phenol concentrations, in these muds and in the waters,



pose a threat to fish life?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, it may be poorly



stated, Mr. Oeming.  We meant the tainting of fish



flesh.



             MR. OEMING:  And not a question --



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Of extinction.



             MR. OEMING:  — of destruction or killing



of fish?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  That's right.



             MR. HARLOW:  They are not at such a level



that fish would be killed.




             MR. OEMING:  All right.  On  Page 8,

-------
                                                      970




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




Paragraph 8, it is stated that deposits of sludge at



the mouth of the river are primarily due to suspended



and settleable solids in municipal and industrial



waste discharged into the Rouge and the Detroit Rivers.



The results of bottom material sampling is shown on



Pages 215 through 220 in the Findings report.



             MR. HARLOW:  I think we just referred to




those a minute ago.



             MR. OEMING:  The percentage of total



volatile solids in bottom materials are 30.8 to



mile point 25, and ranges as a mean between 8.7 and



6.67..  Then there are some other figures for Lake



Erie with 5.8 to 8.0%.



             Is this the basis upon which you made



the statement that you felt that these were primarily



municipal and industrial waste sources?




             MR. HARLOW:  The basis that we made the



statement has been that chart that 1 just referred



to from the Findings on Page 220, that where we



found the deposits we characterized them as of an




oily organic nature, or sometimes they were charac-



terized as an ooze, and this was material that was



causing the interference.




             MR. OEMING:  I see.  It is not solely

-------
                                                      971
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




on the basis of volatile content of those sludges?




             MR. HARLOW:  No, it is not.  This is one



determination that was made, though, the volatile




matter, but it was just one of the many that we based



our conclusions on.



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 10, Paragraph A,




under "Iron," it is stated that iron concentrations




should not exceed 0.3 mg/1 to prevent interference



with municipal and industrial water supply, and to



protect fish and wildlife.



             As 1 understand it, 0.3 mg/1 represents



the recommended limits for drinking water?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is correct.



             MR. HARLOW:  Yes.




             MR. OEMING:  In the Public Health Service



drinking water standards?



             MR. STEIN:  Yes.



             MR. OEMING:  Well, this isn't the point,




the point being that I am unable to find any informa-



tion which would indicate that iron at this concen-




tration interferes with fish and wildlife.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  No, I don't think so either.




If you want to keep it just to that, we feel about

-------
                                                      972
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




1 ppm for fish alone, but 0.3 ppm will protect both




water uses.



             MR. OEMING:  I see, so there is some




modification here that ought to be made?



             MR. VAITGHAN: If you wish to distinguish




between the two0



             MR. STEIN:  It is a literary difference.



             By the way, and this is a good point, as




I understand Mr. Vaughan, he says if we have 003 ppm,



you are going to prevent interference with municipal



and industrial water supplies, and also will protect



fish and wildlife, although fish life could stand up



to 0.1?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  No, one part.



             MR. STEIN:  You understand if you get



0.3, you automatically protect the fish?



             MR. OEMING:  I understand this, but I



wanted to clear up the point.  Is 0.3 necessary for




the protection of fish and aquatic life?  Should this



be the usage that we are trying to protect?




             You see, Mr, Stein, in the report there



are recommendations made where water supplies are in-



volved.




             MR. STEIN:  I see.

-------
                                                     973




             R. D. Vaughan  and G. L.  Harlow




             MR. OEMING:  And where water  supplies  are



not involved.




             MR. STEIN:   I  understand that.



             I think  this is a semantic  problem,  and




in reading this, certainly  you should get  the  other



view.




             I think  what Mr. Vaughan is saying is  that



he took the 0.3 figure to get the most sensitive  use



to be protected.  That sensitive use  was municipal



water supply.  He also thought that these  figures would



protect fish life.



             It is obvious  if fish could stand more




than three times this amount, that if we got down to



protect municipal water supply, the concentrations



would be so low that  they would protect  fish life.




             I think  the  clarification is  well taken



and in order.  It was a little ambiguous from  here.,



I think this is just  a matter of stating it, rather




than an allegation that you need 0.3  to  protect fish



Iife8



             MR. OEMING:  I think the point has been



cleared up.  I don't  know what your reasoning  is, but




the point itself is clear before you  got the reasoning




out.

-------
           R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



            MR. STEIN:  Well, that's fine, as long as




it is clear to you.



            MR. OEMING:   On Page 10, Paragraph 8,




under "Nitrogen," the report states that undesirable




blooms can be expected to occur at .3 mg/1.  Page



153 of the Findings  stated that blooms can be expected




to occur at 0.3.



            MR. VAUGHAN:  It is a typographical error.




            MR. OEMING:   It should be what?




            MR. HARLOW:   .3.




            MR. OEMING:   .3, all right.




            I would  like to clear up a point on Page




20, Paragraph 2, where it is stated that the waters




of Lake Erie are polluted by excessive concentration




of a number of constituents, including suspended




solids.




            We want  to talk about suspended solids




here.  Would your designation of this area carrying




excessive solids include natural growths,of plankton,



algae, and this material?




            MR. HARLOW:   Yes.  In the tests for sus-




pended solids especially as occurred in the Lake waters,




some of these solids are microscopic organisms.




            MR.  OEMING:  Would you  have  any  idea  about

-------
                                                      975



             R. D. Vaughan and G. L.  Harlow



the relative proportion of the solids out  here  that



are plankton and algae, and that are  of  industrial



origin or sewage origin indirectly?



             MR. HARLOW:  No, I would not.



             MR. OEMING:  You didn't  try to differen-



tiate this?



             MR. HARLOW:  We didn't differentiate,



in the sespended solids test, between what  type of



suspended solids these were.



             MR. OEMING:  Any questions?



             MR. STEIN:  No.  I do have  a  comment here



again on the general law on this subject,  that, gener-



ally speaking, where you have a substantial contribu-



tion to a pollution situation, even though  your



contribution in itself will not create a pollution



situation, where it combines with other  things  in



the river and creates one, you would  be  considered



to be a contributor.



             MR. OEMING:  I don't believe that  is the



point, Mr. Stein, as I see it.



             MR. STEIN:  I know.



             MR. OEMING:  The point I am trying to



clarify is that people who are attending this con-




ference and are aware of what is going on  here  have

-------
                                                      976




             R. D. Vaughan and G, L. Harlow




a right to expect certain things, and I don't want



anybody to be misled that by taking care of suspended



solids of an industrial origin, they are going to



make a crystal clear lake out of Lake Erie.



             There are still plankton and algae there,




and they will probably be there, and there will be



suspended solids in the lake.



             MR. STEIN:  Certainly.  Sir, I fully



sympathize with you on this.  This is the problem we



are facing constantly.



             I think there are two things we have here,



that if suspended solids or any other material exists



in an area and you are adding more solids to it, you



may have a real high solids problem.  By dealing with



the man-made pollution, you may be alleviating the



problem, but you are not coming back to a crystal



clear water.  We have that over and over and over in



our field.




             If you will just give me one second, one



of the problems that we have now is this.  We are




practically completed with out cleanup job as far as



the pollution case on the Potomac River is concerned.



What we have is secondary treatment with chlorination.




             During the recreation season, we have

-------
                                                     977






             R. D. Vaughan  and  G.  L,  Harlow



worked out an alleviation of  the  stormwater overflows,



and so forth and  so  on.



             The  people want  to know  when  they  can  go



swimming in the Potomac River.  Bacteriologically,  by



next year it might be  safe.   There is so much silt



coming down that  river, and we  told them that at  the



beginning, that we do  not consider it safe  to go



swimming in the Potomac, because  if a guard  or  any-



one else would have  to look for anyone in that  murky



water, they couldn't find him.



             Secondly, aesthetically,  you are probably



going to be dirtier  when you  come  out  than when you



went in, and people  don't want  that anywhere in this



country.



             But  the point is,  when we are talking



about pollution control, I think the  people  should  be



aware that when we are dealing  with corrective  measures,



we can only do with  these measures  what we can  do with



them, and get this done.



             One more  point.  When  we  were at the meet-



ing in Chicago that  I  talked  about  several weeks ago,



several of the conservationists got very irritated  at



one point, because 1 think they misunderstood the



point.

-------
                                                     978




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             We were talking about controlling the



pollutants, and they talked about ailwives dying by



the millions in the lake.  When we made it clear that



we didn't know why the ailwives died, and that if we



cleared up the pollution we could give them no assur-



ance that they wouldn't die in the future, they got



very excited.



             The point was, after they recognized what



we were saying, that these are the limitations we have



in the field, they realized that the end pollution



control measures can just deal with the discharges



that are controlled and the effects of these discharges.



Effects on water quality from other sources are not



going to be touched one wit by stuff we don't know



about and stuff we can't handle.



             Thank you.




             MR. OEMING:  On Page 21, Paragraph 6,



under the subject of "Chlorides," I think you have




stated that chlorides is a problem in the future and



there is no problem presently?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.



             MR. OEMING:  I just want to pursue this



a little further with respect to the Monroe water




intake.

-------
                                                      979




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             The statement is made that the present



levels do not interfere with water use at the Monroe




water intake, but that the year by year increase is



noted as a warning of future problems.  I think you




are basing this on information shown in a figure on




Page 32 of the Findings,



             I wonder how clear a picture this is to



you?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  This particular one, if we



had used that alone, it might have been difficult to




tie that in.



             It is not shown here, but we took the



same data that made this particular graph, and plotted



an average for the year, the whole average for the



year, for four years in a row, and noted the gradual



uptake from the low 30's ppm to, I think, 39 or 40



or something like that over the time, as a whole year.




             MR. OEMING:  Have you been able to attri-




bute this solely to industrial use of processing of




brines in the chemical industry, or is there some other




factor involved?




             My experience here is that the processing




of brines has been fairly stable over the years, and




I am trying to get at this problem of increase.   I  am

-------
                                                     980





             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



concerned too, but, I mean, what do we do here?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, there are two things




in the figure in the book.



             You will notice that the winter months




have a higher average chloride value.  This would



indicate the possibility of salt from streets affect-



ing this, so that it could be in addition.  This



could be caused not only by industrial waste discharge,



but also salt washing off the streets.  This is very



probable.



             I would like to mention that other



writers have indicated an upward trend, a somewhat



sudden upward trend in the lake, in chloride concen-



tration in the lake over the last few years, as well



as just in this area.




             MR. OEMING:  This, however,  you haven't



been able to evaluate?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  No,  we didn't.




             MR. STEIN:   This was the one area, in



the chlorides, where you really are just  pointing with




concern,  without a recommendation of what can be done;



is that right?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is correct.




             MR. STEIN:   All right.

-------
                                                      981




              R.  D.  Vaughan and  G.  L.  Harlow




              MR.  HARLOW:   Mr. Oeming,  I might point



out on  Page  21 of the  Findings,  it shows that in



1960, the  average --




              MR.  OEMING:   I'm sorry,  Me. Harlow.  I




missed  the first part.



              MR.  HARLOW:   On Page  21  of the Findings —



              MR.  OEMING:   Yes?



              MR.  HARLOW:   It does  show that the average




chloride level at the  Monroe water intake for the en-



tire year  was 30 mg/1,  and in 1962 this value increased



to an average of 40 mg/1.



              MR.  OEMING:   The highs were in the spring,




and the lower levels in the summer.



              MR.  VAUGHAN:   That's  right.  That is why



we put  the full  record  in  the report.



              MR.  OEMING:   Would  you tell me what the




Public  Health Service  drinking water  standards are




for chloride?




              MR.  VAUGHAN:   250 mg/1.



              MR.  OEMING:   What are the fish limitations




for chloride?



              MR.  VAUGHAN:   I know  of  none.




              MR.  OEMING:   I say  the fish that we have




in these waters  here.

-------
                                                       982




             R. D, Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             MR. VAUGHAN:  I don't know of any.  Spe-




cifically, I would guess somewhat higher than that.



If you want expert testimony, we can get it.



             MR. OEMING:  Well, let's get at that here.



             MR. STEIN:  Mr. Mackenthun.



             MR. MACKENTHUN:  As more or less of a



guess, I would say 3,000.  I don't have the data right




here.



             MR. OEMING:  That is for the kind of fish




we have here?



             MR. MACKENTHUN:  Roughly, yes.



             MR. OEMING:  3,000 mg/1?



             MR. MACKENTHUN:  Yes.



             MR. OEMING:  I think you found at the



maximum, how much?  69 parts of chloride?




             MR..HARLOW:  In the Trenton Channel, yes,



I did, of the Detroit River.




             MR.vOEMING:  Yes, and I think your re-



port stated that you found no one who complained



about this, or had any problem with them?




             MR. HARLOW:  We heard several casual



complaints about the chlorides, but nothing serious.




             MR. STEIN:  40?



             MR. OEMING:  69.

-------
                                                       983
              R.  D.  Vaughan   and  G.  L.  Harlow




              MR.  STEIN:   Oh.   Do you mind  if I  ask?




              This is  the  one  question  that I had,  and




 as  long as  we brought this  up, let  me  ask  it.   You



 said  there  is a  problem possibly of industrial  water



 supply.   By the  question, no  one would substantiate



 the claim?




              MR.  VAUGHAN:   That  is  correct.   We think



 at  this  level some  of the industries should  be  having




 troubles.



              MR.  STEIN:  This is the point.   This  is



 an  opinion  judgment of yours?



              MR.  VAUGHAN:   That  is  right.




              MR.  STEIN:  That at 40, certain industrial



 water supplies should be having  trouble?



              MR.  VAUGHAN:   Yes.




              MR.  HARLOW:  We  did receive several un-



 official  reports  that they  were  having trouble, but




 nothing  official.




              MR.  STEIN:  All  right.



              MR.  OEMING:  On  Page 22,  Paragraph 6, it




 is  noted  that Lake  Erie contains excessive concentra-



 tions of  organic  nitrogen and soluble  phosphates.




              Maybe  you have answered this  question,




but what  do you  consider  levels  that are not excessive?

-------
                                                      984
             R.D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, that is a negative
way of putting it, I think.  I would rather see them
low, much lower than the points that would cause
stream damage.
             If you want to say what levels we con-
sider excessive or dangerous, this way, we would say
.3 mg/1 of inorganic nitrogen and .015 mg/1 soluble
phosphate*
             MR. OEMING:  Well, I think my concern,
Mr. Vaughan is that if you came into this area in,
let's say, five years and the levels were at this
level, would this still be subject to the statement
that the levels are excessive?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  If it was below this now?
             MR. OEMING:  If it were at this .3 and
this .015.
             MR. VAUGHAN:  We would not say they were
excessive.  We would hope that they would be lower
than that, but, in answer to your question, we would
say that they would not be excessive.
             MR. OEMING:  They would not be excessive?
             MR. VAUGHAN:  That's righto
             MR. OEMING:  All right.
             MR8 HARLOW:  If they were at this level.

-------
                                                      985
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Or below it.




             MR. OEMING:  At or below it.




             MR. HARLOW:  If it were below -- I am not




sure, but I think there has been work done on this,




and Mr.  Mackenthun is certainly better qualified to




speak on this than I am, but I don't think this level




is a hard and fast level.  The indications are that —




             MR. OEMING:  I think both of you haven't




gotten together here0  When you say that something is




excessive --




             MR. STEIN:  We didn't hurt you.




             MR. OEMING:  No.




             MR. STEIN:  But obviously the questions




have been well prepared.




                    (Laughter.)




             MR. OEMING:  Let me start over.  When




you say that something is excessive, you must have in




your mind something that is not excessive.




             I think that whoever gets into these




programs, including you people, are going to have to




face up to the question, well, what is not excessive




when you say that something is now excessive?




             MR. HARLOW:  Maybe the fact is the word

-------
                                                      986



             R. D. Vaughan and G. L, Harlow



"excessive" here is misued, and all we are trying to



say is that from the literature available, that if



the level gets above, say, .015 mg/1 phosphate, as



phospherus, that you can expect to trigger the algae




rate,



             MR. VAUGHAN:  And the nitrogen too.



             MR. HARLOW:  And if you get bfelow this,




this trigger action is minimized.



             MR. OEMING:  I guess this is all right.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  We will be happy to get



Mr. Mackenthun up, if you want further clarification




on it.



             MR. STEIN:  No.  By the way, this is one



of the most important problems we have, and I think



this is a problem that we are one of the outposts of



the professionals in the field.  At least, the theory,



as I understand it now, and I hope you will check me



on this, is that in dealing with eutrophication or



the aging process of the lake, the key point now is



that phosphate and phospherus discharge or level which




sets off a trigger mechanism allows the algal and



other growth to make use of the nitrogen available.



This begins a pattern of changing the biota of the



lake.

-------
                                                       98?




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             The notion is that if the phospherus



or the phosphate level is kept lower, this trigger



mechanism won't take place.  The triggering won't



take place and the phosphate seems to be the trigger-



ing agent.



             What we are all going to have to do is



device some kind of method, and we are dealing with



a relatively new field, where we can control this if



we are going to protect the Great Lakes.



             1 spoke to your Chief of Technical Serv-



ices.  He has the notion that in dealing with municipal



wastes, given secondary treatment and perhaps a pre-



cipitation process, that we can reduce phosphates



below about 90 percent of what comes into the municipal



treatment plant raw.  He would think that would be a



reasonably good reduction.



             As we know, there is research going on



now which possibly might give us a better reduction,



but the point is if we can get it down to that level,



at least as 1 understand it, it is believed that a



significant measure of protection to the Great Lakes



would be given.



             According to our people, and I went over



this very carefully, in preparing the report they

-------
                                                     988
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



said that if we ignored the phosphate problem in deal-



ing with the situation on the Detroit River, we would



not be dealing with one of the major problems we had



here, and not be dealing with really the long range



problem of protecting the lake, and just be dealing




with immediate localized problems.



             This, as far as I understand it, is the




view of the scientists.



             Is this substantially correct?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes, it is.



             MR. HARLOW:  That's right.



             MR. POSTON:  80 percent removal of phos-



phate was with secondary treatment, without any chemi-



cal treatment or without any coagulation or special



treatment in addition; is that right?



             MR. STEIN:  Wait just one moment.



             Again I will state it on the record, be-



cause if I am wrong, I want to be corrected on the



record.




             As I understand this, there have been



just a few analyses of what secondary treatment does



to phosphate removal.  We have had analyses on phos-



phate removal remaining with secondary treatment




processes, and they varied — not all of them are the

-------
                                                      989




              R.  D.  Vaughan and G.  L.  Harlow



 same -- ranging  from about 30 percent or 35 percent



 over 80 percent, and they are not  only specifics in



 the same city*   In  some large cities  we have two



 secondary treatment plants,  one being very close and



 I would not like to identify it, one  getting about



 a 35 percent removal of phosphates with secondary



 treatment in one plant, and  in another plant over 75



 and 80  percent removal of phosphates.



              In  other words,  the removal of these



 things  is not presumably a defined refined operation



 in secondary treatment.



              However, we do  know that at Hanford,



 in removing the  phosphates there because we had to,



 because this contained a radioactive  substance, —



 what was it, Phospherus 236?   Is that right?



              MR. VAUGHAN:  I  am not sure.



              MR. HARLOW:  Phospherus  32.



              MR. STEIN:  They just had to pull the



 phosphates out.   An Allen Process  was developed which



 precipitated the phosphates,  and this worked very,



 very effectively at a relatively low  cost.



              The theory now,  again as I understand it,



 is if you are lucky and the  secondary treatment plant




works and removes 80 percent  of the phosphates, we

-------
                                                       990
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



won't have to do any more.  If it doesn't, and you run



into the 35 percent level, or you have primary treat-



ment, or you have phosphates you have to get rid of,



you may have to go to some kind of precipitation pro-




cess in addition.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Tertiary treatment.



             MR. STEIN:  Tertiary treatment, right.



             MR. POSTON:  There is a very learned



chemical discussion, Mr. Chairman.  I want to add here



that some of the phosphate problems occur, because in



their treatment plants, where they use separate sludge



digestion and the phosphate digestion process is thrown



back into the solution, when they become dissolved,



they in turn are flushed on out into the treatment



process again, into the effluent in this dissolved



form, and, as a result, are not removed.




             I think a burning of activated sludge



in this activated sludge process will provide much




higher degrees of removal of phosphates, up to this



80 percent, quite readily, whereas with separate



sludge disgestion and drying, you lose much of the



phosphate content back into the sewage.




             MR. STEIN:  We will at this point take a




recess for ten minutes, and resume promptly.

-------
                                                      991
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             (A short recess was taken.)



             MR. STEIN:  May we reconvene?



             Mr. Oeming.




             MR. OEMING:  Mr. Chairman, when we re-




cessed, we were on the subject of eutrophication.



Personally, there is no one more concerned with




eutrophication of Lake Erie and the other lakes than



I am.



             I think it is important, within the pre-



sent state of the knowledge, that we try to clear up



some of the questions and enlighten the Conferees, as



well as other people on this subject.




             The only question I want to pose here is,



is the present state of the art such, of the knowledge



such, with respect to eutrophication, that by removing,



let us say, anywhere from 30 to 80 percent of the phos-



phates, we can expect a commensurate reduction or




improvement in the eutrophication rate by any measur-




able amount?  Are we at such a stage that we know




this now?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  I would like to make one




comment, and then call on Mr. Mackenthun, I think,




who is better qualified.




             MR. OEMING:  All right.

-------
                                                       992




             R. D.  Vaughan and  G. L. Harlow



             MR. VAUGHAN:  To quote Mr. Mackenthun  on



this, we feel if our recommendations are  carried  out



that the phosphate  and nitrogen levels  in the  lake



would go down within these acceptable limits.



             With that, I would like to ask for a




little help  from Mr. Mackenthun to answer your ques-




tion.



             MR. OEMING:  All right.  Did you  get my




question, Mr. Mackenthun?



             MR. MACKENTHUN:  Yes, I think so.  You



are referring to specific numbers, both in reduction



of nutrient  input and reduction of algal  population;



is this correct?



             MR. OEMING:  Well,  not specific numbers.



I am just dealing with this in  a broad  sense.  That



is, if you remove,  let us say,  50 percent of the



nutrients that are  going into a lake now,  is there



any way to tell what commensurate improvement  you



would get in the lake by that amount?   Not specific



numbers.  We have talked about  that.




             MR. MACKENTHUN:  By removing the  ferti-



lizing materials that enter a body of water, it could



be expected that there would be a reduction in the




amount of growth which would result therefrom,

-------
                                                      993
             R.  D. Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Harlow



principally  algal  growth  which  we  are considering.




             MR. OEMING:  But it is merely  some measure



there would  be some  reduction,  but there  is no way




to  say  —




             MR. MACKENTHUN:  There is no way at  the



present time to  put  a  percentage figure on  the amount



that may be  reduced.




             There have been reported in  the litera-



ture very  few figures  on  the production of  algae  from



a given amount of  phospherus, for  example.  The figures



that I  am  familiar with that have  been reported are



from laboratory  experiments or  from sewage  stabiliza-




tion ponds,  none from  the lake  environment  at the



present time.



             MR.OEMING:   And particularly the Great



Lakes is still in  a  stage,  is it,  of  investigation



and study, which would perhaps  lead,  at some future




time, to some rationalization here?




             MR. MACKENTHUN:  Well, the critical  values



which have been  discussed here  by  Mr. Vaughan and




Mr. Harlow are the best judgment of the profession




at the  present time.  That  critical value of .015




mg/1 of phospherus is  a point above which one might




expect  algal growths of a nuisance state  to develop.

-------
                                                     994




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             This critical value was originally pro-



posed as occurring at the time of the spring overturn



in a lake, or at the time of beginning spring growth.



The reason for this is that it is a soluble phospherus



value, and this is the time when soluble phospherus



would be expected to be at the highest concentration




in the water.



             MR. OEMING:  Just one more question.  You




subscribe to this value for phospherus as being a



ceiling that would do some real good here in Lake Erie?



             MR. MACKENTHUN:  Yes, as a soluble phos-



pherus value.  In actuality, some types of algae may



very well grow at a much lower value.  This is a value



which is attributed as a critical level for nuisance



blooms.




             MR. OEMING:  I think that is all.



             MR. STEIN:  Thank you, Mr. Mackenthun.



             MR. OEMING:  My next question has to do




with this also, and this is the proportionate amounts



of nutrients that reach the lake by natural sources



and which are from man-made sources.




             Would you know what the overall reduction



in nutrients would be by taking out the nutrients that



you can get at here in sewage treatment?

-------
                                                     995




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             Let's assume for a minute, for further



explanation of the question, that you could remove



70 percent of the nutrients from the sources that you



have mentioned.  I think there are principally two.




             How would that compare with the amounts



of nutrients that come from sources that are not sub-



ject to control at the present time?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  All right.  First of all,




as far as your determination of the waters going into



the Michigan waters of Lake Erie, the Detroit River



and the Raisin River, we added the phosphates up.



             Can we restrict our discussion to phos-



phates, since there are mainly two sources?



             MR. OEMING:  That is all right.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Well, from phosphates there




are two major sources which represent, in our best



judgment, about over 90 percent of all the phosphates



going into that.  This is from the rivers.  Presumably




some could come in from other sources we don't know



about, but we think that the vast majority of this




comes from these two sources, and if you can take, say,



about 90 percent comes from these two sources, and




9 times 7 is 63 percent -- I am just making that now.




             MR. OEMING:  Then I guess I have to ask

-------
                                                     996



             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



the question in a different way.



             What I am getting at is, if these sources




were removed or reduced by these amounts, is there a



likelihood that we can reach these levels of ,015



that you have suggested here?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  We think they will, yes —




not immediately, but within a few years.



             MR. OEMING:  Your computations would



indicate that the concentrations would result in this



removal?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  The concentrations would,



yes.



             MR. OEMING:  That you are seeking in the



lake?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes, that's right.



             MR. OEMING:  Any comments or questions,



Mr. Stein?




             MR. STEIN:  No.




             MR. OEMING:  There has been a change in



the situation in the Sterling State Park area.  There




is the Ford intake at the mouth of Sandy Creek, or



has been up until recently.  This intake has been



changed now with a direct intake to the lake.




             What effect do you expect this might have

-------
                                                    997




             R. D. Vaughan  and  G. L.  Harlow




on the bacteriological  quality  of the northern  edge



of Sterling State Park?




             MR. HARLOW:  If  I  understand  and get  the




situation, Sandy Creek  discharges into the lake very



close to Sterling State Park.




             MR. OEMING:  At  the northern  edge.



             MR. HARLOW:  And I believe the creek  does



pass through kind of an inland  lagoon area.




             MR. OEMING:  That  is correct.



             MR. HARLOW:  Ford  Motor  Company, accord-



ing to our studies, took water  out of this creek,



approximately  200 cubic feet  per second, and used  it



as a process water and cooling  water,  but  now they



go into the lake to get their water and do not  take it




from this creek.



             MR. OEMING:  That  is correct.




             MR. HARLOW:  Our results  show that this



creek does carry at times heavily polluted waste




material, and  I would suspect now that we  are not



taking out 200 cfs from this  creek, that the additional




flow into the  lake would probably, from the standpoint



of the effect  that Sandy Creek  would  have  upon  it,



increase the likelihood of  a  deleterious condition at




Sterling State Park.

-------
                                                     998


             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow


             MR. OEMING:  In other words, we have a


more intense problem today from Sandy Creek than we


had at the time you made the survey; is that correct?


             MR. HARLOW:  Yes.  As far as the contri-


bution from Sandy Creek was concerned; I think our


results show that the major problem from the Sterling
                                                      9

State Park standpoint is the Raisin River.


             MR. STEIN:  Could I ask this question?


             As I understand your report, do you be-


lieve that if your recommendations are followed at


Sandy Creek and Raisin River that Sterling State Park


could be opened for swimming again?


             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.


             MR. OEMING:  In the report you have dealt


with two municipal sewage treatment plants with re-


spect to your suggested effluent restriction require-


ments.  That is, the Detroit plant and the Wyandotte


plant.


             Do you intend that these would apply


also to plants in Riverview and the new Trenton plant?


             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.


             MR. OEMING:  These have been built since


you developed the report?


             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is correct, yes.

-------
                                                   999




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




             MR. OEMING:  On Page 35, under Item 2,



the recommended coliform density goal for the treat-




ment plant effluent is the same 5,000, isn't it?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes.




             MR. OEMING:  5,000.  What is the goal for



an acceptable raw water supply source under the Public



Health Service water supply recommendation?



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Tc my understanding, the



Public Health Service has a recommendation for raw




water supplies, which is 5,000 per 100 millimeters



for raw water.



             MR. OEMING:  I see.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  That will later be treated.



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 35, under the subject



"Wayne County Sewage Treatment Plant, Wyandotte," in



view of the statement made regarding the fact that the



survey performed at this plant was made on the original




facilities and does not reflect the recent enlargement,




I wonder what information was collected in the study.



             Does the information represent the actual




use of the Detroit River for waste disposal at the




time of the study, or only represent the quantity of




waste that was discharged through the waste treatment




plant?

-------
                                                  1000




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



             MR. HARLOW:  Well, as you know, during



our study and, I believe, for some time before that,



and until they built the new plant or added the addi-



tions, at the Wayne County Treatment Plant at Wyan-



dotte it was necessary for them to bypass, I under-



stand, large quantities of untreated waste, because



of the inability of the plant to handle this large




volume.



             Our study was only made on the waste



material that passed through the plant, and did not



include that bypassed material.  So far as the system



was concerned, there was more of a burden upon the



river than our results would show.



             MR. OEMING:  Do you have any questions,



Mr. Stein?



             MR. STEIN:  No.  You're doing fine.



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 50, under "Recommenda-



tions for Monroe Sewage Treatment Plant," I fail to



find any recommended limits for suspended solids such



as you have recommended for other treatment plants.




             Is this an omission, or did you intend



to make it so?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Actually, the operation at



the Monroe plant is quite good.  It is just barely

-------
                                                  1001




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




over that at the present time, and we felt it was un-




necessary to give them that kind of a recommendation.




If they put in secondary treatment, they would cer-




tainly get it.




             MR. OEMING:  1 wonder if you would clarify




the assumption that might be drawn from a comparison




of figures 1-V and 2-V?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  In the Findings?




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. HARLOW:  1-V and 2-V?




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. HARLOW:  You mean the one on dry and




wet coliform?




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.  This refers to the




dry and wet conditions where the geometric mean coli-




form concentration is 1,000 - 2,400 organisms per




100 mg/1 in the area west of Fighting Island.




             MR. STEIN:  What page is it on?




             MR. HARLOW:  It is opposite Page 132 of




the Findings.




             MR. STEIN:  All right.




             MR. OEMING:  In clarifying this, I notice




that at Station Detroit 17.4-W --




             MR. HARLOW:  Which figure are you re-

-------
                                                   1002




             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




ferring to, Mr. Oeming?  Are you referring to  1-V  or




2-V?



             MR. OEMING:  Let me finish the question.




Maybe this will clear it up.




             In the reach between the international




boundary and Fighting Island, the wet geometric mean




coliform concentration is 2,400 or under and,  in addi-




tion, the 14.6.  Samples were not collected between a




point 850 feet west of the international boundary  and




Fighting Island.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  I don't understand  the  ques-




tion.  I'm sorry.




             MR. OEMING:  Well, the question is, there




is no zone on Figure 2-V where a geometric mean coli-




form concentration is 1,000 - 2,400 in the area west



of Fighting Island«




             MR. HARLOW:  In referring to the  range?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. HARLOW:  Are you saying there is  no



sampling station?




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. HARLOW:  For this length of --




             MR. OEMING:  I wonder if the conclusion




drawn was sufficient here, based on the fact that  you

-------
                                                    1003





             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




didn't have samples in here?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  I see what you mean now.



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. HARLOW:  What conclusion was drawn?



             MR. OEMING:  Between the dry and wet con-




ditions.  That is evaluating the dry and wet conditions



here.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  Let me phrase this right.



George and I, I think, are a little confused about



this point.



             MR. OEMING:  I'm sorry.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Do you mean because we have



this whole map shaded as to condition of bacterial




quality, but we don't have sampling stations?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is true.  We didn't




take sampling stations at every place in the area.




This is a finite map that reported actual sampling




stations.  This is, in our best judgment, the distri-



bution of coliform organisms throughout the lake,




based on the sampling stations that we took.



             MR. OEMING:  You skipped an area in here,




and you felt this was adequate sampling?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  That is  the best we  could

-------
                                                    1004



             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




do, that's right.



             MR» OEMING:  Any questions or comments?



             MR. STEIN:  When you get into this,  all




I can do is keep up with the charts and maps.   I'm



just happy there is a man who can go over that  in




this detail and find it.



                (Laughter.)



             MR. OEMING:  On Page 281 in the Findings



section, the statement refers to oxygen consuming



materials added to the lake.



             I wonder if the inference is correct



that oxygen consuming materials are accumulative,  and



that an equilibrium condition has not been reached.



Is this correct or incorrect?



             MR. HARLOW:  Didn't we kind of answer



that earlier before when we stated —




             MR. OEMING:  These  are oxygen consuming



materials.




             MR. HARLOW:  We are talking about  bio-



chemical oxygen demand?




             MR. OEMING:  Yes.  If you feel you have



answered it, would you please repeat the answer?




             MR. HARLOW:  Well, there is now a  present




load of approximately this figure I have used,  4 million

-------
                                                     1005
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




population equivalents being discharged into the lake




from municipal sources and industrial sources to the



river, and subsequently to the lake.




             I feel that if this level is increased




above the level now being discharged, that there will




be oxygen problems from the biochemical oxygen demand



taking this oxygen out of the water0



             Is that what you were referring to?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.



             MR. HARLOW:  When you referred to an




equilibrium condition?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.




             MR. STEIN:  I don't see where he talks




about equilibrium.



             MR. OEMING:  I am talking about it.  He




doesn't talk about it, but the way it is stated, you



might assume here that to add oxygen consuming mater-




ials to the lake is accumulative, and I don't think




this is what he meant.  I wanted to clarify the state-




ment.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  What you say is possible,




of course.




             MR. OEMING:  On Page 325, under the




subject of 'Vegetation11--

-------
                                                    1006




             R. D.  Vaughan  and  G.  L.  Harlow



             MR. HARLOW:  325?



             MR. OEMING:  Yes.  There were  abundant



 growths of two aquatic  fauna, I guess,  and  it is



 stated that these growths "are  not only undesirable




 from an aesthetic standpoint, but  also  interfere



 with boating by fouling propellors.   Later  in the




 season the vegetation dies  and  decomposes,  accompanied




 by  strong odors."



             It is  further  stated,  "The solutions to



 the problem include abatement of pollution  from sources




 containing significant  amounts  of  phosphorus  and



 nitrogen compounds."



        s     Now, this  is in a  wild fowl staging area,



 as  you know, and all of us  I think are  concerned with



 the welfare of these waterfowl, and those growths are



 food and good habitat for the waterfowl.




             I wonder how we resolve  this question.



 If  we try to protect the waterfowl and  we cause trouble




 with the boats in the process,  how do we get  around



 this one?




             MR. VAUGHAN:   Well, that is, of  course,



 a very legitimate question.




             We realize both things you said  are abso-



lutely true.   This may mean there  is  a  pollution  problem

-------
                                                    1007




              R.  D.  Vaughan and  G.  L.  Harlow



 from one  standpoint,  and  there  is  food  for wildlife




 propagation which would stimulate  this.



              I don't  know if  I  know a ready answer to



 this.  We are pointing out that this  pollution does




 occur, and perhaps  even better  minds  than ours might




 have to come  up  with  the  answers to this, and  it might




 be management of this problem or finding  alternate




 solutions to  the food.  I don't know.




              MR. OEMING:   Well, I  think this is a  real



 critical  problem.



              MR. VAUGHAN:  We recognize this.



              MR. OEMING:   Because,  on the one  hand,



 we perhaps ought to encourage these crops of vegeta-



 tion down there  and,  on the other  hand, it causes



 some injury to other  uses,  and  I wondered if you had



 some answer to this one.




              MR. VAUGHAN:  No,  we  don't.   I am sure




 this is not the  only  occasion where there has  been a




 conflict  between water uses that people have to mull



 over for  quite some time.




              MR. OEMING:   Mr. Chairman, that concludes




 the  questions that  I  would  like to pose at this time.




              I want to express  my  thanks  and apprecia-




tion to Mr. Harlow  and Mr,  Vaughan for  the frank and

-------
                                                   1008





             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow




excellent way in which they have answered the questions.




This has been very helpful to me, I know, and helpful




to our commissioners who are here, in enlightening them




on some of the unresolved questions that seemed, at




least, to be such.




             MR. STEIN:  Yes.  They also helped me and




enlightened me0




             On your last question here, I wonder if,




while you are still up here, we couldn't resolve this.




             If this is a waterfowl area and we have




to provide food for the waterfowl, is a legitimate




interest being interfered with when you talk about




fouling propellors?




             MR. VAUGHAN:  In the same area, boating




is practiced.  Who makes this decision, I don't know,




Mr. Stein.




             MR. STEIN:  Well, I don't know who makes




the decision, but dealing with the waterfowl here, you




know we do have a treaty with Canada on migratory birds,




which I think was up before the Supreme Court at least




once, and it seems to me the Supreme Court makes so




many distinctions, and I think the treaty is kind of




a ruling on this,




             I would suspect, in this case, the lake

-------
                                                    1009




              R.  D.  Vaughan and  G.  L.  Harlow




 seems  to  be  big  enough,  and if  we  have a wild  fowl




 area,  I think we should  be able to agree among the




 Conferees that as a rule of thumb  this probably is  an




 area that is going  to  be preserved, unless  there is



 some persuasive  --




              MR.  OEMING:   I wish you  were more positive



 about  that.



              MR.  STEIN:   Unless there is some  per-



 suasive evidence to indicate that  those boats  have



 a right to be in there,  should  be  in  there  and spin




 their  propellors, we might not  consider that an in-



 terference with  a water  use.



              MR.  VAUGHAN:   We found this in many areas,



 including the wild  fowl  staging area.   We found this




 in other  areas as well.



              MR.  HARLOW:   There is one other interfer-




 ence it does cause,  and  you can judge this  from what




 I say  about  it,  and  that  is that when these growths




 that the  biologists  had  told  me about decay and die,



 they also create an  odor  problem.




              MR.  STEIN:   You  know,  I  expect we have




 some Audubon Society and  bird watchers in the  audience,



 but I  don't  think that is  very  much uncharacteristic




of a wildlife refuge or  a wildlife area, where you

-------
                                                    1010



             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow



are going to have vegetation supporting wildlife, and




you are going to get that.



             There is a question here on the balancing




of usage.  If this is a waterfowl area, you have to



expect decaying of vegetation.  You have to take these




things as they come.



             I guess Detroit, being what it is, takes



the smell of gasoline with the automobile.  When I



was a boy, we used to take other smells when they used



horses, and I think you have to take decaying vege-



tation if you have wild fowl.



             MR. VAUGHAN:  Yes, I would agree with



that.



             I would like to emphasize, in addition



to these areas, we did find them in other parts, in-



cluding people with property.  The poor property



owner is not happy with the vegetati on.




             MR. STEIN:  That is another point.




             MR. VAUGHAN:  The two points are correct.



             MR. STEIN:  I think Mr. Oeming did point



to this in the report, and that is a point of clari-



fication.




             I was thinking, unless something comes




up, maybe the Conferees can agree that we could give

-------
                                                   ion
             R. D. Vaughan and G. L. Harlow
the wild fowl their due in the area.
             MR0 HARLOW:  I would like to point out,
lest I am misunderstood, that I am also for doing all
I can to protect the wild fowl.
             MR. VAUGHAN:  You don't want to be stoned.
                  (Laughter.)
             MR. STEIN:  At this time, we will recess
for lunch.
             We will reconvene at half past one.
             (Whereupon, at 11:55 a.m., a luncheon
recess was taken.)

-------
                                                      1012
                 AFTERNOON SESSION




                     1:30 P.M.








             MR. STEIN:  May we reconvene?




             I would like to say this, and this is a




little unusual.  I see a man who came into the audience




this morning, who has probably caught the eye of all




the people at the front table, except Al, who is the




stenographer, in this business of water pollution con-




trol, and he is one of the senior statesmen in the




field, Mr. Oeming's predecessor in office.




             I wonder if he would stand up, Milton P.




Adams.



                    (Applause.)




             MR. STEIN:  Mr. Oeming, do you have another




question?




             MR. OEMING:  Mr. Chairman, yes.  With your




permission, I would like to ask one more question of Mr.




Mackenthun with respect to the eutrophication of the




lake.




             Mr. Mackenthun, if the deterioration in




the quality of Lake Erie could be shown as a steadily




descending line in water quality, what would you expect




would happen in the direction of that line if we reached

-------
                                                      1013
                  K. Mackenthun

the objectives that have been mentioned in the report as

for the concentration of phosphates?

             To make it a little more specific, would you

expect that this descending line of water quality would

flatten out and remain flat, or would you expect a drop

and then a steady increase in improvement in water qual-

ity?

             MR. MACKENTHUN:  As the concentration of

phospherus from the inflowing water became less than the

concentration in the receiving water, I would expect an

improvement in the water quality to result, this improve-

ment to be defined as a reduction in the algal mass.

             To express it another way, there would be

perhaps a short interval of a flat line, on your parti-

cular expression, followed by a line showing improved

water quality-

             MR. OEMING:  You have put this in the frame

of reference of a better quality of water coming out of

the Detroit River than exists in the lake at the present

time.  Is that what you are --

             MR. MACKENTHUN:  In your particular question,

when the quality of water entering the particular body

of water has a phospherus concentration of a magnitude

less than that within the receiving water, under those

-------
                                                      1014




                  K. Mackenthun




circumstances, the water quality within the receiving




water would improve.



             MR. OEMING:  Well, ultimately you would have




some stabilization, wouldn't you?  The phospherus in the




receiving water would be the same quality as what is




coming out of the river?




             MR. MACKENTHUN:  That is right, and this would




make for a flattening or a stabilization over a short per-




iod of time, following which there would be an improvement




in the quality.




             MR. OEMING:  That is all.




             MR. STEIN:  Thank you.




             MR. OEMING:  Thank you very much, Mr. Macken-




thun.




             MR. STEIN:  At this time, I would like to




call on Mr. Oeming for the presentation of the Michigan




report.




             MR. OEMING:  Mr. Chairman and fellow Con-




ferees:




             I have at the moment two statements to be




made here, one by the Michigan Department of Conservation,




and one jointly by the Water Resources Commission and




Health Department.




             As indicated by the Secretary's letter, the

-------
                                                        1015


                   L. F.  Oeirdn^


State1 was  iven the opportunitv  to  invite  statements from


a0encies and from units  of  government,  and so on,  and 1


also extended an invitation to the  Department of Economic


Expansion.  I don't know whether  they  are  here,  but at


t':e end of the presentations  I have,  I  would  like  to just


call on them if they are  here.


             At this ti;r.e,  I  would  like to introduce Mr.


Gerald Eddy to you, who  represents  Dr.  Hactfullan at this
        t

conference as an alternate,  and he  will present  a  state-


ment on behalf of the Department  of Conservation.





                  STATEMENT OF GER.vLD  EDDY,


                  STATE  GEOLOGIST,  MICHIGAN


                 DEPARTMENT OF  CONSERVATION





             ' MR. EDDY:   Mr.  Chairman  and  Conferees:


              I ai: presenting a  statement  prepared by


Dr. MacMullan, Director  of  Conservation.., ou behalf of


the Conservation Department.  I am  Gerald  Eddy.   I ara


the State Geologist with  the  State  Department of Conservation.

-------
                      Gerald Eddy                         I0l6
                This meeting is an extension of a Joint



Federal-State conference on the pollution of the navig-



able waters of the Detroit River, Lake Erie, and their



tributaries, held March 2? - 28, 1962.



                The Michigan Department of conservation



submitted statements to that 1962 conference.  This



presentation is intended to bring those earlier state-



ments up to date and to make additional comments in '



light of the recent published report of the u. S. Public



Health service Detroit River - Lake Erie project.



                The Detroit River and Lake Erie have great



significance as natural resources.    we would like to



begin, therefore, by discussing briefly the resource



characteristics of rivers and lakes in general.




                A river is more than a conduit; a lake



is more than a reservoir,,     A river is more than a



pipe to bring us a substance - water - and more than a



ditch to carry off materials we no longer want - used



water and waste.




                A lake is more than a tank to store and



contain water and waste.    Each lake and each stream is

-------
                                                     1017
               Gerald Eddy
a natural phenomenon, of value in itself.   Its
ingredients are chemical, biological physical, and
esthetic.   They include plants, animals, matter in
solution and  suspension; all brought into association
by tie medium  of water.
            Because of this combination of characteris-
tics, lakes and streams form a many-faceted resource.
The utilization of any one facet can have profound in-
fluence upon  each of the others.   Each use can cause
some  hazard to the lake or stream, itself, if carried to
excess.
            No single use of a lake or stream poses so
great a threat to all other values as the disposal of
waste.   We believe that the concept of disposing of
wastes by committing them to lakes and streams ultimately
must  change.    We recognize the enormous financial
and economical Implications of that statement; neverthe-
less, we are  convinced that the other values of these
water resources are such that the day will come when
their use for waste disposal will cease, by popular
d emand.
            The remainder of this statement will deal
with  three specific conservation aspects of water and
its use:  fish; waterrowl; and parks and recreation.

-------
                                                     1018


                Gerald Eddy



By limiting our discussion to these, we do not



mean to imply that they are the only values of water



resources to be considered.  ¥e do insist that they are



important values which, even if there were no other con-



siderations, would justify the need to guarantee high



water quality in the Detroit River and Lake Erie.



            On the subject of fish:



            Fisheries resources, both sport and commercial,



are entirely dependent on water quality.  Within the past



30 years, the fisheries resources in the Detroit River



and Lake Erie have deteriorated rapidly.   That deteriora-



tion is continuing.   The desirable clean-water fish



species formerly present are fast disappearing, and



being replaced by less desirable, pollution-tolerant



species.



            The evidence is strong that the deterioration



of fish resources in these waters has come about prin-



cipally because of environmental changes resulting from



pollution.   These changes are complex and subtle, and
            A


have affected fish life In many ways.  Perhaps the most



important change is rapid eutrophic aging stimulated by



nitrogen compounds and phosphates found in organic wastes.



Nutritive enrichment provided by these wastes leads to



oxygen depletion, temperature increases, turbidity,and

-------
                                                      1019



                     Gerald Eddy




interruption of the biological food chain.  In addition,




some chemical and industrial wastes contain toxicants




directly harmful to fish.




            Until quite recently, Lake Erie was the most




productive of the Great Lakes in terms of useful fish.




It continues to support a large fish population, but




the composition of that population has changed drastically,




The valued blue pike has disappeared; the lake herring




and whitefish are almost gone.  The walleye is in a




precarious state.  Of the desirable species, only the



yellow perch remains abundant, and there are indications




that even this tolerant and prolific species may be in




trouble.




            The new Lake Erie fish population is composed




predominantly of species of little commercial value and




of minor interest to sport fishermen, such as carp and




sheepshead.



            The situation in the Detroit River is similar




to that in Lake Erie.




            The fisheries of Lake Erie and the Detroit




River unquestionably are deteriorating and can be saved




only by an all-out effort to restore water quality to




standards favorable to desirable fish.

-------
                                                     1020




                     Gerald Eddy



            Now, in the field of waterfowl:



            This Department in 1962 pointed out that



pollution in the Detroit River had claimed a heavy toll




of ducks during the previous two decades.   Of the



several forms of pollution, oil discharges were the




most serious to waterfowl.



            It was further pointed out that a monitoring



system initiated by the Water Resources Commission in



March, 1962, was the best way to provide early detection



of pollution and trace it to its source.   It was stated



that the monitoring system would be an effective deter-



rent to careless waste handling, especially if backed



by strong enforcement of State laws.



            Comparative figures for losses before and



after establishment of this monitoring system are now



available.    Prom March, 1962, to the present, losses



of ducks were significantly reduced below the levels of



previous years.  The record for the three years shows



only one loss due to a specific accident, which did not



Involve oil.   During the 12 years from 1948 to I960, 12



separate serious losses occurred, which was before



monitoring.




            The reduction In losses appears to be a direct



result of the monitoring system.   Furthermore, Signl-

-------
                                                     1021



                   Gerald Eddy



ficant decreases in oil discharges since 1962 have



been noted in field inspections.




            Thus, there have been some gains on this



particular problem.    Gratifying though these are,



they are no cause for complacency.   New and serious



waterfowl losses could occur at any time.   At the very




least we will need to continue to maintain vigilant



patrols and make frequent checks on discharge outlets.



Vigorous enforcement remains essential.








            In the field of parks and recreation:



            The U. S. Public Health Service report on



the Detroit River - Lake Erie project states:



            "Restriction of recreational opportunities



in Lake Erie and its Michigan tributaries may be the



worst damage from pollution, inestimable in dollar



figures.   At beaches near the mouth of the Detroit



River, any kind of water contact sports - even water



skiing or boating - is hazardous.     The beaches at




Sterling State Park, in heavy demand by a metropolitan




population of nearly four million (projected to reach



5-| million by 1980), have had to be posted as unsafe for



swimming.     The beaches, themselves are often offensive




due to the washing ashore of rotting plant life and

-------
                                                    1022




               Gerald Eddy



decomposing matter of sewage and industrial origin."



            We can add nothing to that statement beyond




detailing some of the effects of pollution on parks and



other recreation facilities located in and along the




Detroit River and Lake Erie.



            Sterling, the only State park on the Michigan



portion of Lake Erie, has been closed to swimming since



1961, owing to bacterial contamination of its 7,800-foot



beach.    Attendance at this park has dropped from



1,239,216 in 1951 to 319>500 in 1964, a decline of



approximately 75 per cent.   This drop occurred during



years when most other State parks were overcrowded to



the point that tens of thousands of would-be users were



turned away annually.




            Since March, 1962, we have spent about



$500,000 for buildings, roads, water and sewage facilities,



and other improvements at Sterling State Park in an



effort to provide a badly needed major recreational



facility for this heavily populated part of Michigan



and for out-of-state visitors entering the State at its



southeast gateway.   Consideration has even been given



to construction of an artificial swimming pool as a



feeble substitute for the natural beach.  This would be



a shameful solution to a problem which should be solved

-------
                                                    1023




                    Gerald Eddy



by cleaning up the pollution which necessitates "no



swimming1 signs.




            As the Public Health Service report points



out, 26 out of the 31 miles of the Detroit River are



unsafe for swimming, water skiing, and other water contact



sports.  Boaters and the more than 60 marinas in the



Detroit River-western Lake Erie complex must contend



with oil and sludge which not only cause direct damage




to boats and docks, but also seriously detract from the



recreational pleasures of boating.








            As a conclusion:



            The Public Health Service report asserts,



"While there is some evidence that water quality is



improving, because of increased water uses damages are



increasing, and unless remedial action is taken immediate-



ly the usefulness of the water resources of the Detroit



area may be destroyed completely by pollution."



            That statement applies with special emphasis




to the conservation-recreation values discussed in the




previous sections of this statement.   It is evident



that the interests of fish, waterfowl, and recreation



have not been adequately protected by past pollution



definitions and water quality standards.    There is in



our minds a serious question whether new definitions and

-------
                                                      1024




                   Gerald Eddy



standards will be adequate unless the Importance of



these values Is given first consideration.



            The Detroit River and Lake Erie form



part of a great metropolitan complex.   This complex



is growing, and it will continue to grow at an in-



creasing pace, unless all the population projections



are wrong.    Along with this growth has come a



recreation boom, that likewise is still gathering



momentum.



            The recreational potential of these two bodies



of water is enormous.  Given clean water—perhaps I should



say cleaner water—they are capable of meeting the



recreational needs of millions of people, while at the



same time contributing to their economic prosperity



and esthetic enjoyment.



            Water that is fit for swimming, for sport-



fishing, for pleasure-boating, for waterfowl resting



places—water that is pleasing to the optic and to the



olfactory nerves, necessarily will be water fit for all



other uses as well.   We suggest, then, that this cri-



terion should be the guideline for the setting and en-



forcement of water quality standards in the Detroit River,



Lake Erie, and their tributaries in the future.

-------
                                                      1025




                  Gerald Eddy




             MR. STEIN:  Thank you, Mr. Eddy, for a very




excellent statement.




             Are there any comments, or questions?




             MR. POSTON:  I would like to have Mr. Eddy




thank Dr. MacMuIlan for the very fine paper that he has




given here, and I certainly appreciate these views.  I




think they outline very well the Department of Conserva-




tion's ideas.




             MR. EDDY:  Thank you.




             MR. STEIN:  Mr. Eddy, when you talk about




whitefish, whenever I go to a restaurant in the midwest




I always see Lake Superior whitefish on the menu.




             Don't you have any whitefish in Lake Erie




that you can serve?




             MR. EDDY:  Not for some time.  The whitefish




are coming back in Lake Huron and Lake Superior, but we




are not very hopeful about our part of Lake Erie anyway.




             MR. STEIN:  Do you think if the lake is re-




stored, we might have some Lake Erie whitefish?




             MR. EDDY:  A long time from now perhaps.




I'm not too confident of it.




             MR. STEIN:  There is another point you made.




             You said you are convinced that other values




of the water resources are such that the day will come

-------
                                                     1026-7




                  Gerald Eddy




when their use for waste disposal will cease by popular




demando  I never knew we were very popular.




             (Laughter„)




             Thank you0  Mr. Oeming?




             MR. OEMING:  At this time I would like to




call jointly on Mr. Purdy, Chief Engineer of the Water




Resources Commission, and Mr. John Vogt, the Director




of the Division of Engineering, Michigan Department of




Health, to present a combined report.




             I believe that the program here is for Mr.




Purdy to commence, and then Mr. Vogt will make a pre-




sentation of some portion of it.

-------
                                                    1028
               STATEMENT OF RALPH PURDY,

      CHIEF ENGINEER, WATER RESOURCES COMMISSION

               OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
            MR. PURDY:    I am Ralph Purdy, Chief

Engineer of the Water Resources Commission.

            Chairman Stein, Conferees, Commission

members, and others in attendance here today:

            This report up-dates information contained

in the report "Water Pollution Control in River Basins

of the Southeastern Michigan Region,"  presented by the

State at the March, 1962,  conference.
                       a
            It delineates  accomplishments in controlling

pollution of the waters of the Detroit River and Michigan

portion of Lake Erie.   As in the original report the

files and records of the Michigan Water Resources Commis-

sion and Michigan Department of Health are the sources

of Information contained herein and the employed staffs

of both agencies collaborated in assembling the material

and in preparing the report.

            Chapter 1 of the State report at the first

session outlines the statutory authority, policies, and

procedures for the administration of the water pollution

control function in Michigan, and we call the attention

-------
                                                    1029
                Ralph Purely
of the conferees to this section for such information.
The State Highway Commissioner, member of the Water
Resources Commission, has been replaced by a State
Highway Director.
            Michigan, through its state agencies,
recognizes its obligation to protect and conserve its
water resources as presclbed by statute.   As pointed
out in the earlier report to the conferees, every city,
village, or township, having a sewer system, had either
a sewage treatment plant of its own or contracts with
another governmental unit for treatment of its collected
wastes.    It was shown that facilities and methods for
treatment or control of the polluting constituents in
process wastes are provided at virtually all industries.
The Chairman, at the close of the first conference stated,
"Whenever any foreign visitor came to Washington, they
always asked us what is one of the better State programs
to look at, and invariably we sent them to Michigan.
I think that the record here, both the report that our
Department prepared, and the report we got from the
State, and others, indicates that this is so.   I don't
think that we could have developed the record and gotten
so much data at a first session of a conference in prac-
tically any other area.   At least, to my experience this

-------
                                                   1030
                 Ralph Purdy
has not been done, particularly in an area where we
have as complicated and so sophisticated a situation
as we have in the Detroit metropolitan area."
            He further stated,  ''I think cognizance should
be taken of the excellent work and programming of the
Michigan State authorities; the fact that almost all
the wastes in this area are being treated."
            I wish to emphasize to the conferees that we
are not at the beginning of a pollution abatement
program in this area as In the case in many other areas
in the United States.    Many millions of dollars have
been spent by Michigan municipalities and industries  In
the Detroit metropolitan area and Monroe area.   Pollution
has not been allowed to worsen and go unchecked.  Water
quality today is Improved as compared to the past.  This
is shown by the present report of the Secretary of Health,
Education, and Welfare, and also by reports of the
International Joint Commission.   We are looking today
at what are the additional needs, over and above what
has already been provided, to maintain satisfactory
water quality for today's uses of the receiving waters
and to provide guide lines for tomorrow.
            The need for an investigation and appraisal
of the discharges of waste water to the Detroit River

-------
                                                   1031



               Ralph Purely



and Michigan waters of Lake Erie was recognized by the



Michigan Water Resources Commission and an outline of




a proposed comprehensive study was prepared in 1961.



The survey was to be undertaken and performed by the




State.  An alternate procedure was selected by former




Governor Swainson and by letter dated December 5.» 196l,



asked, "In accordance with Section 8 of P.L. 660 as



amended (P.L. 87-88) I request that you, as Secretary



of Health, Education and Welfare; assist the State of



Michigan to identify and recommend methods for correcting



the sources of pollution going into the Detroit River



and subsequently into Lake Erie."




            The study has been completed by the



Department of Health, Education, and Welfare with the



staffs of the Michigan Water Resources Commission and



Michigan Department of Health participating cooperatively



in certain specific portions.   The report written by



the staff of the Department of Health, Education and




Welfare was presented to the State some thirty days in



advance of this conference.   An essential element in




the final determination of the effluent quality re-



strictions for wastes discharged to the Detroit River



and Michigan waters of Lake Erie is the development



of quantitative goals for desired water quality

-------
                                                   1032





                    Ralph Purdy








objectives to accommodate the various uses made of



the receiving waters„   Recommended quantitative goals



or guidelines of desirable resultant river water quality



are in the most part not stated in the report.



            That completes the first section of my



presentation.

-------
                                                    1033


                     Ralph Purdy


            MR. STEIN:  Thank you very much.  Are there

any comments or questions?


            MR. POSTON:    I think not.


            MR. STEIN:   I have one, Mr. Purdy.  As far

as I understand the point developed by the Government

investigators, it is that the development of effluent

requirements by them, they believe, would result in a

condition of water quality in the river which would

protect health and welfare.  I think this was the theory

that they present, and, as I understand this, we always

have to work back on the development of requirements

in the River, but in order to tell a city or an industry

what to do, we always have to work back to that.

            Presumably the investigators have worked

back to that point, and they believe that if this is

accomplished, the quality of waters will be in reasonable

shape to protect health and welfare.

            MR. PUKDY:  Yes, Mr. Stein.    This comment


was put in so that, or at least, if these goals were
            4
stated, that at some later date the State could test the


receiving waters and determine whether or not the various


water uses were being protected.

            You might test the effluent and find that

-------
                                                    1034




                  Ralph Purely



the effluent is in compliance with the effluent



restrictions; but if this does not provide the water



quality necessary to protect the various uses, we then



have not accomplished our Job.



            MR. STEIN:   Mr. Purdy, I could not agree



with you more; and I think Mr. Oeming and I see this



eye-to-eye; but I do believe that the investigators



here believe that in the existing state of discharges,



if those effluents standards were met you would have a



quality of water in your River which would protect health



and welfare.



            Now, this is the supposition, as I understand



it in the presentation of the report, that these people



made those effluent determinations; they kept constantly



relating this to the effects that this would have on



the Detroit River and on Lake Erie, and these waters



at the point of use, and they believed that this would



provide adequate protection from this view.



            MR. OEMJNQ:   Mr. Chairman, and fellow conferees:



This is John E. Vogt, director of engineering, Michigan



Department of Health, who will continue with the presenta-



tion of this Joint report.

-------
                                                   1035
              STATEMENT OP JOHN E. VOOT,

               DIRECTOR OF ENGINEERING

                 DEPARTMENT CP  HEALTH
               OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN
            MR. VOGT:   Mr. Chairman, Conferees,

Ladies and Gentlemen:

            I will discuss the status of municipal

sewage collection and treatment.

            The report on Water Pollution Control in the

River Basins of the Southeastern Michigan Region

presented by the Michigan Department of Health and

Water Resources Commission at the Conference called by

the Secretary of Health, Education, and  Welfare in

Detroit on March 27 and 28, 1962, sets forth information
                                                    %
on the type and extent of sewer systems and the disposal

and treatment methods in effect at all governmental

units within the region.     It was pointed out that

every city, village, and township having a sewer

system had with a sewage treatment plant of its own

or contracted with another governmental unit for treat-

ment of its collected wastes.   Further, that of about

3,500,000 living in developed sections of this area, less

than 2 per cent lived in municipalities having no sewer

-------
                                                   1036
                  John E. Vogt
system.
            The aggressive program of the Water Resources
Commission and State Health Commissioner in bringing
about development of sewer systems and treatment works
was indicated by a listing of formal corrective actions
against municipalities taken by these regulatory agencies
to maintain control of pollution.    It was clearly
demonstrated by these tabulations and the accompanying
text that in virtually every community in the Detroit
River and tributary river basins pollution control
facilities either had been Installed, were under con-
struction, or were scheduled for construction.
            During the 38-month period since this infor-
mation was presented this program has continued as
scheduled, quite without influence or reference to the
Detroit River-Lake Erie study praject undertaken by the
Department of Health, Education and Welfare.    All of
the work under construction or scheduled at that time
has been completed except for one project to be completed
this year.   In addition several communities have built
new sewer systems and treatment facilities to prevent
initial pollution; others have extended and improved
sewer systems and treatment works to keep abreast of

-------
                                                  1037




                  John E. Vogt



community growth and expansion and still others have



installed facilities for separation of storm and



sanitary sewer systems or other means of improved con-



trol of overflows from combined sewer systems.   Many



of these projects have be~en undertaken voluntarily



indicating a growing public acceptance of the re-



sponsibility for effective pollution control and



improvement of environmental health conditions.



            The tabulations presented in the March  1962,



report have been updated to show the status of parojects



undertaken since 1950 by communities in the Detroit



River system drainage basins to maintain control of



pollution.     Status as of June 1, 1965* is shown



on the accompanying Tables, together with the status of



each project as of March  1962.



            Mr. Chairman, I would like to request that



the tables in this report be made a part of the record.



I shall conserve time by not reading these tables.



            MR. STEIN:   They will be Included as if



read, without objection.








(Six pages of tables follow.)

-------
                                                         ACTIOII TAKEN Hf
                                            OX'I-IU1IITIS3 AliD UTATE RBGULATOlff AGBIICIES
                                          SINCE 1950 TO i-IAH-.TTAUT COilTROL OF
S.tatus
How Project Initiated
Conniunity
Almont
Ann Arbor
Amada
Centerline
Carleton
Chelsea
Clinton Twp-Macor.b Co.
Clinton Tvjp-flacomb Co.
Dearborn
*Detroit
Detroit
Detroit
Detv-it
Dexter
Dundee
Farainfjtou
Action
Voluntary
Agreement
Voluntary
Order
Voluntary
Afireencnt
Voluntary
Voluntary
Stip'n
Order
Order
Agreement
Voluntary
Voluntary
Order
Order
Agency
-
MDH
-
WRC
-
MDH
-
WRC
WRC
WRC
MDH
-
WRC
WRC
Year
-
1962
-
195C
-
1959
.
1955
1950
1950
3-959
-
1951
1950
Facilities Required
Treatment Plant
Treatment Plant Addns
Treatment Plant
Coribined sewer separa-
tion; connection of
sanitary to Detroit
Lagoons
Treatment Plant A.'.dns
Treatment plant
Treatment pj_ant
Abandonment and plant
connection to Detroit
Interceptor
Pump Station
Interceptor
Treatment Plant Addns
Treatment Plant Addns
Treatment Plant
Combined oewer over-
Coot
$ 195,000
$2,395,000
$ 272,000
$1,307,000
$ 105,000
$ 175,000
$1, GOO, 000
;)1, 000,000
$ 270,000
$5,350,000
$ 921,500
$1,350,000
$12, '000,000
$ 05,000
$ 2^2,000
$ J(OO,000
As of March
27, 19o2
Completed 1957
Initiated later
Completed 195 j
Construction
Commenced
Initiated later
Complied
Completed 1953
Completed 1957
*cheu,,:,« 1952
Complied
Under Constr.
Commenced 19ol
Under Conntr.
Initiated later
Complied
Complied
As of June 1,
19o5
Completed
1957
'Under Constr.
Completed
Complied
Completed
Complied

Complied
C-r^lied
Conpl-.t'-rl
Complied :
Completed
Completed
Complied
Complied
1955
**
19o5



1963
L-"-'3,
1963


Flat Rock
                                      MDH
       flow control connec-
       tio--- t.i Detroit

1958   Treatment Plant Addns   $  100,000    Scheduled 19o2     Complied 19o3
* Expenditures do not include over $100  million fron 1950-19o5 for relief  sewers and retention of combined  sewage
  for  subsequent treatment.

-------
                                                                                                     Status
       Community
  How Project Initiated
 Action    Agency    Year
                Facilities Required
                                 Cost
                                    As of March      As of June 1,
                                   Jl*.
Gibralter
Grosse lie Township
Grosse Pointe Park
Agreement
Order
Stip'n
Macomb County  (Southeast)  Stip'n
  E. Detroit
  Roseville
  St. Clair Shores
Manchester

Melvindale

Milan

Milford

Mt. Clemens

New Haven

New Baltimore

Oakland County-Evergreen
Farmington Interceptor
Serving:
     Birmingham
     Bloomfield Hills
     Bloomf ield Tv/p
     Farmlngton Tv/p
     Keego Harbor
     Lathrup Village
     Pontiac Twp
MDH
MDH
WRC
             WRC
1958
1964
I960
        1900
Interceptor connection $  500,000
to Wayne Co plant at
Trenton           *

Treatment Plant and    $5,000,000
Interceptor (by Wayne
County)
            Scheduled 1962   Complied  1963
                                                                                           Scheduled
                             Constr commenced
                             1964 - to be
Combined sewer over-
flow control connec-
tion to Detroit
$ 175,000   Commenced 1961   Complied
       Combined sewer separa- $38,000,000
       tion and control of
       overflows
                                    In financing     1 project complied
                                       stage         1964, remainder
                                                     scheduled 1965
Order
Order
Order
Order
Order
Voluntary
Voluntary
Order
Order
Order
Voluntary
Voluntary
Order
Voluntary
WRC
WRC
WRC
WRC
WRC
-
-
WRC
WRC
WRC
WRC
1951-
1951
1951
1951

-
-
1952
1952
1952
1954
                            Treatment plant

                            Connection to Detroit

                            Treatment Plant

                            Treatment Plant Addns

                            Treatment plant

                            Treatment Plant

                            Treatment Plant

                            Interceptor with
                            connection to Detroit
                                       $  140,000  Complied

                                        $  25,000  Complied

                                        $ 225,000  Complied

                                        $  75,000  Complied

                                       $2,000,000  Complied

                                       $  320,000  Completed 1956

                                       $  580,000  Completed 1962
                                                            Complied

                                                            Complied

                                                            Complied

                                                            Complied

                                                            Complied

                                                            Completed

                                                            Completed 1962
                                      $12,693.000  Completed 1960   Completed 1960
                                                                                                                           O
                                                                                                                           00
                                                                                                                           vo

-------
        Community
   How Project Initiated
  Action    Agency    Year
                 Facilities Required
                                 Cost
                                               Status
                                    As of March      As of June 1,
                                    27, 19b2             1965
 Oakland  County-Evergreen
 Farmineton Interceptor
 Serving  - Continued
      Southfield           Order
      Troy (portion)       Voluntary
      \1.  Bloomfield Twp    Voluntary
      Westwood             Voluntary

*Oakland  Co - Southeastern Order
 Sewage Disposal System
 Serving:
      Berkley
      Birmingham
      Bloomfield Hills
      Clawson
      Ferndale
      Hazel Park
      Huntington vfoods
      Madison Heights
      Oak Park
      Pleasant Ridge
      Royal Oak
      Royal Oak Twp
      Southfield
      Troy

 Pontiac
 Pontlac

 Riverview

 Rochester

 Rockvrood
Order
Order

Agreement

Agreement

Agreement
              WRC
              MDH
WRC
WRC

MDH

MDH

MDH
         1952
         195T
1951
1959

1960

1960

195 u
       Combined sewer .overflow$7.?5QO,OOG
       control;relief sanitary
       interceptor with connec-
       tion to Detroit
Treatment Plant Addns   $ 800,000
Treatment Plant Addns  $3,200,000

Treatment Plant          $911,000

Treatment Plant Addns    $^95,000

Treatment Plant Addns    $1^0,000
  (by Wayne Co)
                                                                To be com-
                                                                pleted 1962
                                                     Complied 1964
Complied         Complied
Constr.commenced Complied 1963

Scheduled 19b2   Complied 1965

Complied         Complied

Scheduled 19o2   Complied
  Additional $53,000,000  expended  for relief sewers  and retention of combined sewage for subsequent treatment.
                                                                                                                             O
                                                                                                                             -IS-
                                                                                                                             C'

-------
Status
How Project Initiated
Conmunity
Saline
Saline
Sputh Lyon
Sterling Twp -Ma comb Co
Stockbridge
Tecumseh
Trenton
Utica
Action Agency
Order WRC
Agreement MDH
Agreement MDH
Voluntary
Voluntary
Order WRC
Agreemcnl MDH
Voluntary
Year Facilities Required
1951 Treatment Plant
1963 Treatment Plant Addns
1958 Treatment Plant Addns
Treatment Plant MC.,s
Lagoons & Interceptor
19^9 Treatment plant
1958 'j.reai.ment Plant
Treatment plant
Cost
$ 200,000
? 215,000
r 350,000
$ 250,000
$' 250,000
$ 260,000
$1,665,000
$3^5,ooo
As of March
27, 19o2
Complied
Initiated later
Complied
Initiated later
Initiated letcr
Complied
Scheduled 1962
Initiated later
As of June 1,
1965
Complied
Constr Commenced
1964
Complied
Completed 1965
Under constr 1964
Complied
Complied 1964
Completed 1964
 i arren
Voluntary
   shtenaw County
Pe-t
      i.on
1 Jayne County-Downrii •>. r
Sewage Disposal TV :jtern
Sci*vinc:  Allen Park
          Belleville
          Bro'^mstown
          Dearborn Height:
          Ecorse
          Lincoln Park
          River Rouge
          Romulus Twp.
          Southyate
          Taylor Twp.
          Van Buren T^-rp.
          V/yandotte
WRC
Agreement    MDH
        replacement

       Treatment plant     .  $35,800,000
       interceptors & combined
       sewer separation

1957   Interceptor connec-     $ 300,000
       tion to Ypsilanti Ts/p.

1958   Interceptors and addns$l6,8l5,000
       to plant at Wyandotte.
       Abandonment of county
       plants at Belleville,
       County Major Airport
       and Romulus Township
                                                   Under Constr.   Completed 1958-1965
                                                                Inactive
Completed 1963
                                                   Scheduled for    Complied
                                                   Constr 1962
                                                                                                                           O

-------
                                                                                                     Status
     Community
_ How Project Initiated
 Action    Agency   Year
                                                                                          As  of March
        Facilities Required.     Cost
                                                                                 As of June 1,
                                                                                    196?
 Wayne County - Northeast  Agreement
 Sewage Disposal System
 Serving:
      E. Detroit
      Grosse Pte Shores    Agreement
      Grosse Pointe Woods
      Harper Woods
      Roseville
      St. Clair Shores

 Wayne County - Rouge Valley
 Sewage Disposal System
 Serving:                  Order
      Canton Twp.
      Dearborn Heights
      Garden City
      Inkster
      Livonia
      Uankin Twp.
      Horthville
      Northville Twp.
      1-Iovi
      Plymouth
      Plymouth Twp.
      Bedford Tup.
      Romulus Twp.
      Van Buren Twp.
     Wayne
            MDH
            MDH
 1958
 1958
            MDH
196l
Ypsilanti

Ypsilanti Twp-
Agreement


Voluntary
            MDH
                             Addns to interceptor    $ 582^000   Under constr.
                             connection to Detroit
Complied 1963
                            Addns to  interceptor  $l6,815,000   Under constr     Complied 1963
                            connection to Detroit                   19<5l
19bl   Treatment Plant Addns  yl,500,000   Scheduled 1962   Complied  1963
                                                      Treatment Plant Addns   $ 888,000
                                                                               Under  constr
         TOTAL COST - 1950 to 1965	

         COST - March 19o2 - June 1, 1965
                                                $177,6^1,500

                                                £(.19,859,500

-------
                                                        ADDENDUM
Status
Commun i ty
Bri ghton
*Grosse Pointe Woods
How Proj
Act ion
Agreement
Voluntary
ect 1 n i t iated
Agency
MDH
MDH
Year
1956
1956
Fac i 1 i t i es Requ i red
Treatment
add! t ionc
Combi ned
plant
sewer
$
$
Cost
223,300.
859,700.
As of March
27, 1962
Completed
Completed
1959
1961
As of June 1
1965
Completed
Completed
1959
1961
 and Harper Woods
* Does not include $11,810,300 for storm sewer separation.
overflow control -
connection to
Detroit system
 GRAND TOTAL COST - 1950 to 1965				--$ 178,724,500.
                                                                                                                                M
                                                                                                                                O
                                                                                                                                4=-
                                                                                                                                U>

-------
                                                     1044




                      John  E.  Voght



             MR.  VOGT:    Thank you.



             Actions  both voluntary  by  the  community and



 by some  action  of  the  regulatory  agencies  are  indicated.



             The estimated  amount  of expenditures  for each




 project  has  been added.



             The magnitude  of  this activity is  illustrated



 hot only by  the number of  projects  and communities  served



 but also by  the amount of  the expenditures.    Over



 $57 million  had been spent during the  12 years preceding



 the HEW  Conference in  1962 and about $120  million



 has been spent  since then. This  does  not  include over



 $150 million expended  during  this period for projects



for relief of combined  sewers  which  are an  Important  part



of the facilities for retention and  control of overflows



 from combined sewer  systems.








             As  to  the  subject of  municipal water  supplies:



             The City of  Detroit obtains its water supply



 from two sources and serves treated water  to about  60



 municipalities  in  the  metropolitan  area.    The main



 source of supply is  from an intake  at  the  head of Belle



 Isle. This  intake and tunnel structures have  a capabili-



 ty of furnishing over one  billion gallons  of water  per

-------
                                                   1045



                 John E. Vogt



day through three water filtration plants at Water



Works Park, Springwells Station, and Northeast Station.



            A fourth filtration plant was built in Allen



Park, known as the Southwest Plant, by the Wayne County



Road Commission and was turned over to the City of



Detroit when completed in 1964.   The distribution systems



of all four plants are interconnected.  In the event



of an outage of any one plant the others can still



supply water to the entire city.  Such an interconnection



also exists to the City of Wyandotte.



            The Southwest Plant obtains its water from an



intake in the Detroit River between Grassy Island and



Fighting Island en the Canadian side of the International



 boundary 5300' from shore. This intake was installed



at the designated location based upon a comprehensive



engineering study and report submitted in 1955 by Hazen



and Sawyer, Consulting Engineers.



            The plans for the Detroit Southwest intake




and water filtration plant were approved by the Michigan




Department of Health and the facilities were constructed




by the Board of Wayne County Road Commissioners only after




a comprehensive survey of water quality by the County




and its consulting engineers in 1955.  (This particular



study was referred to as the "Wayne County Water Supply

-------
                                                     1046
                     John E. Vogt
Investigation 1955/' page IS of the Findings).  A
great deal of water quality data was collected for this
survey and from time to time various conferences were
held by the consulting engineers and staffs of the Wayne
County Board of Water Commissioners, Michigan Department
of Health, and the Water Resources Commission.  The
site was selected on the basis of a very satisfactory
water quality and on expected future protection,
both of which have been confirmed from operating results.
            No less important and in addition to considera-
tion being given to raw water quality, appropriate atten-
tion was also directed toward the design criteria for
the treatment facilities, themselves.  They are developed
in detail in the consulting engineers report entitled,
"Functional Design-Filtration and Pumping Plants
Wayne County Water Supply Project, September, 1956."
(This particular report was not referred to in the Health,
Education, and Welfare Findings.)  They are summarized  in
the original report on water quality.  Between the two  reports,
it is stated that, "These ratings are conservative and  would
assure excellent water purification," and,  "The special
precautions are reflected: in the provisions for heavy
prechlorinatlon, post chlorination, and dechlorination
if necessary; in the provisions for long flocculating
(40 min.) and settling times (4 fours) to assure ample

-------
                                                      1047




                     John E. Vogt




opportunity for the chemicals to act; in the inclusion




of activated carbon and chloride dioxide for taste and




odor control; in the use of filtration rates substantially




lower than those used successfully at Detroit; and in




the provision of automatic devices to indicate quickly




changes In raw water and filtered water quality."




Considerable flexibility in treatment and standby




facilities are included in the design and additionally




all filtered water passes through treated water storage




reservoirs which provide added chlorine contact time




before being pumped to the distribution system.









Wyandotte




            The City of Wyandotte obtains its source of




water supply from the Detroit River through a 42" intake




pipe 1700' long terminating in a crib placed in a cut




in the middle ground.  The treatment at the Wyandotte




Filtration Plant consists of prechlorination, chlorine




dioxide, alum and carbon with flocculation and sedimenta-




tion for pretreatment, filtration and post chlorination




and fluoridation.




            The present intake, placed in operation in




July 1950, replaced an old intake in approximately the

-------
                                                    1048





                    John E.  Vogt




 same location.    Prior to installing the present intake



 considerable  testing was done  on the river water,  and in



 1946 on the basis of the city's  request and their test



 data and the  recommendation of their consulting engineers,



 a construction  permit was issued by the Michigan Depart-



ment of Health to construct  an  intake 3900 feet from shore



 in Canadian waters.  Tests  made  since that time substan-



 tiate the fact  that these plans  were sound and should



have been executed.   Since  1959  several discussions were



 held with the City of Wyandotte  urging them to execute



 the 1946 plan or an equal alternate plan in order to



 provide an improved raw water  quality.  Another possibili-



 ty was made available to the City of Wyandotte to obtain



inproved raw water by connection  to the new Wayne County



 intake line.  The Wayne County  Road Commission installed



 a wye connection at the shore  shaft for this express



 purpose.




            In  1961 the Michigan Department of Health



 issued a construction permit for improved pretreatment



 facilities conditioned upon the  City of Wyandotte



 securing an Improved quality of  raw water.



            Prom all information made available to us



including the data contained in  the Projects report

-------
                                                   1049


                    John E. Vogt



Wyandotte's water supply can be improved by taking



advantage of better quality water available.



            An objective analysis and evaluation of the



treatment provided at the Wyandotte water filtration



plant will bring out that bacteriological tests on



finished water at Wyandotte regularly show results which



are far superior to the drinking water standards of the



U.S.P.H.S. and moreover that extra precautions are



being taken through additional built-in safety factors



to protect the users of this supply.    A few of these



extraordinary precautions over and above the normal



are as follows:



            a.  Chlorine residual recorder,  with alarm,



on the pretreatment phase.



            b.  Manual tests for chlorine in addition
     s


to those made by the recorder, are made throughout the



plant hourly and more frequently if changes occur,



with appropriate adjustments in chlorine application.



            c.  A new sedimentation basin with over



four hours detention time for future maximum flow rates.



Present detention time is 6 hours and greater.


            d.   Prechlorination with free chlorine



residuals which are then maintained throughout the plant



and the distribution system.

-------
                                                    1050




                     John E. Vogt




Monroe



            Records show that the original water supply




was establishedin 1889.



            MR. STEIN:  Pardon me.  Did you mean to




eliminate that other sentence?




            MR. VOGT:  Yes.



            MR. STEIN:  That was meant to be eliminated?




            MR. VOGT:  Yes.




            A privately owned utility pumped untreated




water obtained from a 20" intake located about 3 miles




north of the River Raisin mouth in Lake Erie 1800 feet




from shore in approximately 25' of water.  (That is',




there are 7'-12*- of water over the intake crib.)  Typhoid



fever and other associated diseases were a chronic problem




at the turn of the century and thereafter until chlorina-



tion facilities were first installed in 1915, resulting




in a definite improvement.  Less than ideal operation




of the supply with deficiencies in both quantity and




quality resulted in transfer of ownership to the City of




Monroe in the early twenties and the installation of a




complete filtration plant in 1924.  There is evidence to




indicate that the raw water quality was affected by the




quality of water coming from the Raisin River.

-------
                                                    1051
                   John E. Vogt
            Occasional taste problems plus relatively
high conform indices resulted in the construction of
the new intake extending  1 mile in Lake Erie at Pte.
Aux Peaux in connection with a jJant expansion in about
1950 to 8 M.G.D.  There should not be any question or
implication that  Influences resulting from civilization
a nd the activities of man including domestic and indus-
trial waste discharges jeopardize the safety of the
water supply provided to  consumers on the Monroe water
distribution system.  This statement is made with proper
recognition to the desirability of using raw water
sources of the best  quality obtainable and providing
full protection from unlawful pollution.
            Raw water quality in regard to MPN—the most
probable  number—determined by daily tests at the Monroe
water filtration  plant show averages as follows:
            1961  - 745
            1962  - 621
            1963  - 803
            1964  - 859
            Median figures of monthly averages are:
            1961  - 571
            1962  - 385
            1963  - 639
            1964  - 590

-------
                                                     1052




                John E. Vogt




            Prom this data It is obvious that the raw




water quality at the Monroe intake is superior to that




given for water filtration plants In the "Manual of




Recommended Water - Sanitation Practice of the U. S.




Public Health Service."








            Figures for chloride and total hardness are:








                           CI               TOTAL HARDNESS
1952
1955
1957
1961
1962
1963
1964
— —
--
__
31
36
40
39
117.7
114.8
123.5
126.1
124.0
131.6
134.1
            Bacteriological analyses of the treated  water



clearly show the drinking water to be entirely safe  by



any standards and certainly far superior to the U. S.



Public Health Service Drinking Water Standards.

-------
                                                      1053




                      John  E. Vogt




             I would  now  like to  discuss  public bathing



 in  the  Detroit River.




             The suitability of natural waters for  swlnming,




 water skiing,  and  other  forms of close contact recreation



 is  dependent upon  many characteristics of the water and



 of  the  stream or lake which contains it.  Among these



 are water  temperature, color, and turbidity, depth of



 water,  bottom materials, and physical obstructions such



 as  submerged rocks,  deadheads, snags, etc.



 The presence of sewage as  determined by  sanitary surveys



 and confirmed  by certain bacteriolotical analyses is the



 principal  yardstick  £y which hazards to  public health are



 measured.



             It is  universally agreed among public health



 investigators  of bathing water quality that the sanitary



 survey  of  sources  of pollution which may reach bathing



 areas provides the most reliable basis for determination



 of  the  extent  of endangerment of the public health.   It



 is  equally well  agreed that bacteriological analyses



 often provide  valuable information to support and supple-




ment  the findings  of the sanitary survey.   Unfortunately,




 however, as  pointed  out in the U. S. Public Health



 Service report on  bacteriological and epidemiological



 studies of bathing waters  of Lake Michigan entitled



 "Tri-State Survey  of Lake Michigan Waters (19^8)," no

-------
                                                     1054
                      John E. Vogt

 correlation  could be  established  between  the  concentra-

 tion  of  bacteria, as  determined by  standard methods  of

 analysis,  and  effects on  health of  persons swimming  in

aich waters.

             This report and  subsequent  reports  issued

 by the Public  Health  Service recognized that  it is impos-

sible  to  establish a numerical standard  for bathing water

 quality  in terms of bacteriological concentration.   It

 is well  known  that many areas of  the  country  have included

 some  numerical value  as a guide line  or objective based

 upon  local needs and  conditions.    A  wide range in

 values are in  use by  various municipalities,  State

 regulatory agencies,  interstate compact groups,  and

 others.  Usually these numerical  parameters are based  on

 the most probable number per 100  ml of  sample of organisms

 of the coliform group although the  more tedious test

for organisms  of Escherichia Coli subgroup or so-called

 "Fecal Coli" provides more significant  information.

 Even  this  test includes organisms found in animal as

 well  as  human  intestines.    The entire  coliform group

 includes several subgroups found  in soils and elsewhere

 outside  warm blooded  animals, thus  having no  public

 health significance of themselves.

             Thus it is clear that the standard  tests for

-------
                                                       1055




                     John E. Vogt




bacteriological concentration developed for these




purposes do not, of themselves, provide a reliable




measure of water quality.  The effects of land wash,




certain nutrients for regrowth of the organisms and other




variables, may often yield a distorted picture of actual




conditions.




            An interesting example of this is cited




in the aforementioned Tri-State Survey of Lake Michigan




Waters.




            At Whiting, Indiana, samples of lake water




showed enterococcus organisms of extremely low concentration




never exceeding 3.6.  To quote from the report, "coliform




densities as high as 11,000,000 were found in this area




where the water had none of the obvious characteristics




of sewage.  It is postulated that the corn sugar waste




from the American Maize Products Company may induce




coliform growth in the lake itself."



            This serves to emphasize the need for the




exercise of judgment based upon all of the pertinent



facts rather than some arbitrary numerical yardstick in




determining whether water quality is suitable for




swimming.




            Little, if any, organized swimming is practiced




in the Detroit River.   There are no public

-------
                                                      1056



                     John E. Vogt




beaches of any consequence on the river below Belle Isle.




Physical characteristics of the shoreline and bottom high




velocities coupled with navigational and shipping uses




make these waters generally unattractive for this purpose.



It has not been necessary, therefore,  for the State or




county health departments to close beaches or take other




formal action to dissuade the public from swimming in




these waters.




            That finishes my section,  Mr. Chairman.

-------
                                                     1057




                       John Vogt



           MR. STEIN: Thank you.  Are there any comments



or questions?



           MR. POSTON:   Yes.   I wondered in this



table of treatment, communities with treatment plants—



I did not have time to look that over carefully; but I



wondered, does this mean that all of the communities in



this area have secondary treatment, and that there are



no needs there then at this time?



            MR. VOGT:   No; this does not say that, Mr.



Poston.  This states that a treatment facility is provided,



depending upon the needs as Judged by the State agencies



for that particular location.



            MR. POSTON:  This is a record of construction



that has taken place since 1950?



            MR. VOGT:   Since 1950.



            MR. POSTON:  And then there could be—



            MR. VOGT:  Actually some of the plants do



provide secondary treatment; some provide primary treat-



ment; but the tabulation does not differentiate.



            MR. POSTON:   I think that the communities



of Michigan can be commended that they all have treatment.



I think this is a very fine thing to have in the State.



            I go down a little further and I have a



comment about Wyandotte and the recommendation that they

-------
                                                    1058




                 John Vogt



go to Canada for their water supply; and I wondered



whether you had any other comment on that.   I think this



is one of the things that we continually get pressure



on to make our pollution work go faster and do more.



We in America are very proud of our "firsts," and to ask



that we go to Canada for a purer supply of water is not,



in my way of thinking, what we ought to be doing; and



I wondered whether you cared to comment on this further.



            I notfcd that Detroit plans a new Intake



up in Lake Huron.



            MR. STEIN:    Let me see if I understand you.



Do you mean to say they are asking an American city to



go to Canada to get a cleaner supply of water to drink?



            MR. VOGT:  I think you should re-read the



report, and I think you are making some interpretations



here which are not there, because the report does not



state that the City of Wyandotte should go to Canada for



Its water supply.



            We do say that there Is improved raw water



quality, or there is raw water available which is



Improved over their present raw water source available



to them; and we do not specifically say that they should



go to Canada.

-------
                                                   1059




                     John Vogt



            MR. STEIN: What does this mean:   You say



the permit was issued by the Michigan Department of Health,



reading from your report, page 15, to construct 3900



feet from shore of connecting waters—that is Canada—



and you say tests made since that time substantiate the



fact that these plans were sound and should have been



executed.



            MR. VOGT:  These were the recommendations



of the consulting engineers for the City of Wyandotte



and the Michigan—



            MR. STEIN:  But you—



            MR. VOGT:    May I finish, Mr. Chairman?



            MR. STEIN:   Yes.



            MR. VOGT:  —and the Michigan Department of



Health approved these recommendations; and it was



based upon the raw water quality data submitted to it.



            Now, if the report and the study had shown



that actually this was where the investigation was made



and if they had investigated on this side of the Inter-



national Boundary, they might have well found a similar



quality of water.     We are not going into that.



But the study was made as far out and beyond the ship



channel; and the recommendations were based upon the study

-------
                                                      1060




                     John Vogt




of raw water quality at that point.




            MR. STEIN:  I understand you, but in reading




your report, other than the engineers, you say tests




since that time substantiate the'fact that these plans




were sound and should have been executed.  That is your




judgment.  "Several discussions were held with the




City of Wyandotte urging them" --  I  assume you people did




that — "to execute the 19*16 plan";  in other words, to go




out of the country to get drinking water for their




citizens, or an equal alternate plan, in order to provide




an improved raw water quality.




            It seems odd that a State agency of a sovereign




State in this nation should recommend and urge on an




American city to have to go out of the country for a




decent water quality.




            MR. VOGT:  You are taking that out of context,




Mr. Chairman, because if you will  read the statement




"or equal alternate plan," I think that is extremely




important.  In other words, the axiom'of water supply




engineering is get the best raw water quality available




to you and then provide whatever treatment is necessary




to render it safe for drinking.




            So, we took the position that the program.

-------
                                                     1061





                  John Vogt



should be that the best raw water quality available



should be obtained.



            Now, we did not say that the only place to



find the best raw quality was on the other side of the



International Boundary.    In fact, as we indicated in



the report, "or an equal alternate plan."



            MR. STEIN:   Where could they find equal



alternate plans on the American side?  Isn't this—



you are giving them a Hobson's choice. What choice did



they have?    They either had to take water—and I read



what they are doing in the plant.   You have listed



viewing a visual recorder with an alarm, and annual



tests, made by the recorder hourly, about sedimentation,



four hours detention, pre-chlorination--they are taking



heroic efforts to protect their citizens because they



are taking voter from the American side.     What alterna-



tive did they have except to go out of the country?



            MR. VOGT:   You are prejudging an investi-



gation that was not made.  In other words, you are saying-



which we have not said—that acceptable raw water quality



was not available on this Side of the International



Boundary.   Now, our report does not say this.



            Let me ask one of my associates here if he

-------
                                                     1062




                 John Vogt



would like to comment further on this.



            MR. STEINi   Would you Identify yourself for



the record, please?



            MR. VOGT:    This Is Mr. C. C. Crumley,



sanitary engineer In the Division of Engineering of the



Michigan Department of Health.



            MR. CRUMLEY:   Just a comment on that, with



respect to the raw water quality on the American side,



as far as the Wyandotte intake or proposed intake could



be, the navigational Interests precluded the location



of an intake in certain areas of the American waters,



whereby they could not take advantage of the quality in



American waters.



            MR. STEIN:  Sir, I have heard—what is this



man's name from Wyandottee, Mr. Hazey?  But it seems to



me that Mr. Hazey, like any other water works operator



in the country, feels that his present intake Is In a



reasonable location, and that an American City and as



an American citizen he is entitled to good water right



at that intake where it is; and I do not think I am



misrepresenting his position.     Are you going to invite



him here?



            MR. OEMINGi   Yes; he is scheduled to appear.

-------
                                                     1063




                     John Vogt



            MR. STEIN:    As far as I understand his



position through the years, this was It.   I think you



should establish that.



            One more point that Mr. Poston made, and this



kind of surprises me, and I would like an explanation



of it.   There is a rather detailed report, and I think



a very excellent one, on water supply situations in



various communities; but the key point that we are deal-



ing with is how the community treats its wastes, and



all we get in the table is treatment plants, treatment



plant additions, without saying what your treatment is,



primary or secondary, what the effluent is; and it seems



to me passingly strange that we have such a detailed and



complete report on water supply—and I agree with you,



Mr. Vogt, I am sure that the people here in these areas



are getting a safe potable water; but what puzzles me



is the daily operation and the dally kind of treatment



in the treatment works in the various communities.



            MR. VOGT:   I think, Mr. Chairman, that



it is Important here to recognize the degree or to under-



stand the degree of treatment which is provided by these



water supplies, in view of some of the statements In the



Public Health Service report Indicating that the safety

-------
                                                    1064



                    John Vogt


of the water supplies was in Jeopardyjand particularly


should there be a breakdown in equipment or a mal-


functioning of the treatment process, I think it was


important for us to point out the safeguards which are


built into these water treatment plants, and the operating


characteristics of them.


            I think it was extremely important to give


that side of the picture in view of the statements in


the Public Health Service report, which might tend to


question the quality of treated water produced by these


plants.


            MR. STEINs   Well, I don't know if these


people ar® here.   I have heard so much about this over


and £ver again.   But as I read this and I think what you


said has—certainly I am not criticizing that you went


into the water supply plans; but I wish we had this kind


of detail on what the treatment plants were doing,


Municipal treatment plants, as you have given us in water


supply.   I think, as I understand it from the invest!-
          4

gators of the Federal Government, that if you have a


deteriorated raw water supply, the only thing between


that and the people are men and machines, and, as we know,


they both break down.   The better the quality of the

-------
                                                     1065



                     John Vogt




raw water supply the better the safety factor with this




treatment.




            I listened to their report, and I read it




very carefully.  I did not get any implication that




the people in this area were not getting a safe potable




water.




            MR. VOGT:  Well, maybe we read different




things into words.  Furthermore, I think we pointed




out in our report on Municipal waste treatment that




in 1962 we provided the conferees with a very complete



recitation and a very complete status of the municipal




sewage treatment plants in the area, getting into the




degree of treatment provided, et cetera, and also




stated at that time plans which were under way,




construction which was under way or pending, at these




municipalities as far as sewage treatment was concerned;




and in that report we pointed out very carefully and in



depth the degree of treatment which was provided. This




is all a matter of record.  So far as this report was




concerned, we felt that all we needed to do was update the




report and confirm whether or not the plans which




we said were under way in 1962 had in fact been carried




out.

-------
                                                    1066




                   John Vogt



            MR. STEIN:   Yes, I would agree with you.



If this is the view—and reading this very interest-



ing information you have given us on water treatment



in Wyandotte, Monroe, and others, I would say if we



compared the two fields that it seems to me in your



water plants, to provide a safe potable water for the



inhabitants of this area, you would have to have the



most advanced sophistocated kind of treatment.



            I wonder if you can say the same thing for



Jie waste treatment plants,that they are providing a



comparable kind of treatment measured with the status



of the art in waste treatment today as we are providing



in water treatment.



            Maybe that is a rhetorical question and maybe



it answers Itself.



            MR. POSTON:   I had one further question.



I noted that Wyandotte has precautionary measures here



that they take,over and above the normal, recording with



alarms, tesfes for chlorine; in addition new sedimentation



basins, prechlorination—and there are four recommendations



of extra precautions there--! wonder whether the up-



stream waste plants have similar type precautions, an



alarm system to notify the water works of hazards, or

-------
                                                      106?
                     John Vogt
bypassing,  or reduced  treatment,  or things  like  this.
            MR. VOQT:  Yes,  they do,  Mr.  Poston.    In
other words,  there  is  a very close  liaison  between the
upstreaSt—let us  say the operation  at  the Detroit  sewage
treatment plant,  that  if there  is some emergency
that  exists in the  Detroit  system,  the City of Wyandotte
Is  advised;  or if  there are  plans  to make some changes
which might temporarily reduce  the  degree of treatment
for a temporary period of time, this information is
passed on in  advance to the City  of Wyandotte.
            MR. STEIN:  Have you anything  else?
            MR. POSTON:   I understand that Detroit is
putting the new intake up in Lake Huron, or has  plans to.
Is this to  get away from, or to provide  additional
water quality that  they would like  to  have  for the
people in this area?
            MR. VOGT:    I  think  this  should more
appropriately be  posed to the general  manager of the
Detroit Water Board; but I  think  that  one reason for
going to Lake Huron is that the load on  the system is
more  to the north of the City of  Detroit; so d.t  seemed
logical that,  rather than pumping from way  downriver up
north,  you  put the  intake to the  north side of the load.

-------
                                                    1068




                   John Vogt



            MR. STEIN: Right. The Detroit intake



now, the major intake, is in the Canadian waters, is it




not?



            MR. VOGT:   Not that I know of.




            MR. STEIN: That was pointed out to me




 the other day, I thought.



            MR. VOGT:  No,  sir.



            MR. STEIN:   No?



            MR. VOGT:  The  southwest--



            MR. STEIN:  The south intake.



            MR. VOGTs    The southwest Intake, yes;



but the main intake  is not.



            MR. STEIN:    One of you made intakes into



 Canadian waters?



            MR. VOGT:   No.



            MR. STEIN:    No?



            MR. VOGT: I think it should be clear that the



 major intake in the  Detroit area, which is on the Detroit



 aystem is at the head of Belle Isle, and this is in



 American waters, and it has a capacity for something



 in excess of one billion gallons per day.




            MR. STEIN:  That is above the Detroit waste



 discharge, isn't It?

-------
                                                     1069
                John Vogt

            MR. VOGT:    Yes; It is at the head of the

Detroit River.

            MR. STEIN: But you  have a water  intake

below  the Detroit  discharge, don't you?

            MR. VOGT:   Yes.

            MR. STEIN:   And that is in  Canadian waters?

            MR. VOGT:   That is in Canadian  waters.

            MR. S TEIN:  Well —

            MR. VOGT:  r.would like to clarify the point

which you made, which was erroneous.    The Intake which

is in Canadian waters is a relatively small portion of the

intake capacity for the Detroit system* in other words,

some 150 million gallons per day,  versus one thousand

million gallons per day.

            MR. STEIN:   I agree with you.  The point

that I was making, that where Detroit had its water intake

above the source of the Detroit discharge it was in

American waters, and where it was below the point where

the sewers are discharged, they had their intake in the

Canadian waters.         Do you have  any questions?

            MR. POSTON:  I wondered whether or not

 Wyandotte,  according to the demand and the capacity to

apply chlorine, the demand has ever exceeded the capacity

to apply chlorine.

-------
                                                      1070




                     John Vogt




            MR. VOGT:  I would say no, Mr. Poston.




However, I do not have that Information at my fingertips.




But I think I could say no Just categorically, because




we supervise this.  If, let us say,  the connotation of




this question is that if this prevailed then a degraded




water would in fact be pumped to the distribution




system, there are other things that  would be done before




this would prevail.   For example, perhaps cutting down




on the rate of pumping during a short period of high




chlorine demand would be done if this prevailed.  But




to my knowledge this has never prevailed.




            MR. POSTON:  When this Wyandotte water was




first put in, that was approved by the State Health




Department; that is, the existing intake?




            MR. VOGT:  Well, it was  — you will bear in




mind in the report I pointed that out.  It was approved




following the earlier study which indicated that the in-




take should in fact extend out farther into the river.




So when we approved the shorter intake line, we did




so with the understanding that, as I recall now -- and now




I am trying to recall the details of this -- with the




understanding that if a satisfactory water quality was

-------
                                                     1071
                      John Vogt
 not obtained then appropriate changes would be made.
             MR. POSTON:   What I was getting at is,
 do you feel then that the water quality is deteriorating,
and this is the reason that the operations or capacity—
             MR. VOGT: No, we do not think that the  water
 quality is deteriorating, but again I go back to the
 axiom of water supply engineers; that every effort  should
 be made to obtain the best quality of raw water avail-
 able, and since there is better raw water available,
 then we feel this should be obtained; but we do not feel
 that the water quality has deteriorated at this point,
             MR. POSTON:   That is all I have, Mr. Stein.
             MR. STEIN: Do you have anything else?
             MR. OEMING:    No.
             MR. STEIN:  You know,  Mr. Vogt,  on page 20
 you mention that in Whiting,  Indiana, samples or lake
 waters showed endrococcus organisms with extremely  low
 concentrations, never exceeding 3.6.  To quote from  the
 report,  "coliform densities as high as 11 million were
 found in this area where the  water had none of the
 obvious  characteristics  of sewage.   It is postulated—
 and you  do not say who postulated—"It is postulated
 that the waste from the  American Mai-s« Company may induce

-------
                                                    10J2
                   John Vogt
conform growth In the lake, itself."
            Then you say "This serves to emphasize the
need for the exercise of Judgment based upon all the
pertinent facts rather than some arbitrary numerical
yardstick In determining whether water quality is
suitable for swimming.."
            I do not know if anyone disagrees with that,
but we did have a conference at Chicago several weeks ago
and the Whiting Beaches are closed for swimming.
            Now, I also have a question here, and I
would like to raise this.
            MR. VOGT:  I think it should be pointed out
for the record that this quote is from the Public Health
Service report.
            MR. STEIN:   I am not arguing with it.
            MR. VOGT:  These are not our words.
            MR. STEIN:   Yes; I am not saying that.
But the point is, these people feel that there is a
danger, and this is their Judgment.
            By the way, we did not, the Public Health
Service did not close fche beach.   It was the Indiana
local authorities.    They felt when there was a question
Involving the health of the people they Just did not

-------
                                                      1073
                    John Vogt
want to take a chance.
            MR. VOGT:   Well, this is one possibility.
The other possibility is that conditions have changed
since 19^8.  Bear in mind I am referring to a study
that was conducted back in 1948.  That is a few years
 ago.
            MR. STEIN:   Yes,
            MR. VOGT:  And conditions could well have
changed since them.
            MR. STEIN:   Yes.  The beaches have been
closed for a while, too, the Whiting Beaches since then.
            But then you talk in terms of the significance
of fecal eoliform, and you said this test includes
organisms to be found In animals as well as human
Intestines, having no public health significance of
themselves.   I think most of the professionals here
are experts in this area.    Harold Clark Just died a
few weeks ago; but we do have Dr. Kabler here, and Mr.
Delwrlght, who has worked with him through the years,
and Cadwell was his supervisor.      I think it is well
known that Clark has developed methods with fecal
organisms, fecal strep organisms, which permits him to
differentiate between animal and human material, and

-------
                                                     1074
                     John Vogt
permits him to differentiate between material coming off
from the soil.  In other words, we believe now—and
the experts are here—that we can make a determination
with these fecal strep tests whether something comes
from a human, something comes from a warm-blooded animal
and a slaughter house, or these come from a field and
they were lying around a field, and this can be done, I
think, with a fair amount of precision.
            MR. VOQTs Well—-
            MR. OEMING:    May I Interrupt?
            MR. STEINt   Yes.
            MR. OEMINQ:  Could you permit me to call Mr.
Barbour?
         »  MR. STEIN:    Yes.  Would he mind that?
            MR. OEMINQ:   I don't think so.   You won't
mind interrupting this for a minute?
            MR. VOQT:   No.
            MR. STEIN:  There is a man who wishes to make
a statement, who has to leave, and Mr. Oemlng has asked
that he call him now.
            MR. OEMINQ:  Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like
to at this time provide the opportunity to Mr. Al Barbour,
chairman of the Wayne County Road Commissioners to make
a statement.   I understand he will make a statement

-------
                                                      1075



                John Vogt - Al Barbour




both on behalf of the Wayne County Road Commissioners




and the Wayne County Department, of Public Works.




            MR. BARBOUR:  Mr. Oeming, Mr. Stein, and




Mr. Poston, I appreciate this opportunity of being




able to interrupt the proceedings, to make a statement




on behalf of the Wayne County Department of Public Works



and the Wayne County Road Commission.  Let me apologize —




            MR. STEIN:  Can you hear him out there?




            VOICES:  No.




            MR. STEIN:  Would you mind speaking up, or




getting closer to the microphone?




            MR. BARBOUR:  All right.  Let me indicate




to you my appreciation  for allowing me to break into your




proceedings this way.   We have another commitment this




afternoon, so on behalf of the Wayne County Department of




Public Works and the Wayne County Road Commission, we would




like to, as quickly and as briefly as we can, present our




statement to you from both agencies of government.




            MR. STEIN:  Go ahead, Mr. Barbour.

-------
                                                      1076


                 STATEMENT OF AL BARBOUR




            MR. BARBOUR:  We have reviewed the findings


and conclusions of the U. S. Public Health Service


Detroit River-Lake Erie Study and are concerned over  the


damage reportedly being done to the river and the lake


by inadequately treated municipal and industrial wastes


and by combined sewer overflows.


            We are aware of the widespread and long-range


impact that the Detroit River-Lake Erie System will have


on this region and are concerned over any effect that


sewage treatment plant effluent from the Wyandotte Plant


might have upon the quality of these waters.


            The survey data in the report for the Wyandotte


Sewage Disposal Plant was collected, 'as the report states,


in 1963.  At that time the sewage disposal plant was under-


going- extensive expansion and improvement.  However,


because of its then overloaded condition, inadequately


treated sewage plant effluent was being discharged to the

               4
river.  The expansion has now been completed and plant


capacity is now approximately five times its former value


and as a result treatment in excess of present requirements


is now possible0


            In addition, some treatment of combined storm


water and sanitary sewage from the No. 5 District,

-------
                                                    1077
                 Al Barbour
which would otherwise be pumped to the river, is being
provided.    This treatment will be possible until such
time as the growth and development of the service area
require all plant capacity for treatment of domestic and
industrial wastes.
            The Rouge River in the Middle Rouge District
and Ecorse Creek in the Down River District are the
principal surface water channels in the areas served
by the DPWs facilities.   Because of combined sewers
discharging storm water-sanitary sewage mixtures to these
streams during the time of storm, the facilities
constructed by this Board are unable to further control
or improve the quality of the water in these two streams.
            The Board of Public Works of Wayne County
is prepared to take further steps to improve the degree
of treatment at the Wyandotte Plant by several means.
We propose to donduct surveys of the service area to de-
termine whether it is possible to control at their source,
certain toxic materials found in the effluent.   We also
propose to investigate the use of chemical precipitation
to further improve the performance of the existing faci-
lities.   In this manner we hope to achieve results
approaching the desirable standards set forth in the
report.

-------
                                                      10?8




                     Al Barbour




            The County has constructed sanitary inter-




ceptor sewers and disposal plant expansion amounting to




$36 million and in the last three years has constructed,




on behalf of its municipalities, approximately $6 million




of extensions to local systems.




            The Board of Public Works of Wayne County is




anxious to do its part in making certain that the waters




of the Detroit River and Lake Erie are so used that the




greatest benefit to the greatest number of people will




result and their availability for future users will be



unimpaired.

-------
                                                     1079
                  STATEMENT NO. 2
                  BY MR. AL BAKBOUR
            MR. BARBOUR:   The Detroit River and Lake

Erie must be viewed as a very important natural

resource, constituting, as they do, the outlet for more

than 2/3 of the largest fresh water resource in the world.

The conservation of such a natural resource is certainly

in the national interest; and the people of Michigan,

remembering the destruction by Improper use of the great

^timber resources of the lower peninsula certainly do not

wish to bear the responsibility for the destruction of

another natural resource, a most vital water resource,

which is now in jeopardy.

            The Detroit River and Lake Erie are affected

by a number of phenomena both natural and artificial,

which are changing the characteristics of the lake.  The

natural phenomena bringing about gradual changes in the

lake are the short-range and long-range variations in

weather cycles and changes in the character of the water-

shed by virtue of long-range geological and climatic

cycles.

            Lake St. Clair is probably a smaller version

of the future condition of Lake Erie with a delta formation

at the mouth of the St. Clair River and a shallow water

-------
                                                    1080




                     Al Barbour



depth resulting from deposition of material transported



by the St. Clair River.    The wind and current action in



Lake St. Clair will continue to cause material from its



bottom to be suspended in the water as it leaves Lake



St. Clair, and on occasion the entire Detroit River as



it passes to Lake Erie will be discolored by this turbidity.



            In addition to thse natural phenomena, changes



in the character of the watershed of the Great Lakes



will result in changes in quantity and quality of



the water, itself, and will contribute to the gradual



changing of the characteristics of the Detroit River and



Lake Erie.

-------
                                                     108l
                   Al Barbour

             As the economy of the region changes from
 predominantly agricultural to largely municipal and
 industrial, the runoff of surface water is altered.
 Streams discharging to the lakes experience greater
 extremes of high water level and low rate of flow and
 in times of high flow the high velocities carry surface
 wash from streets and highways,  parking lots,  roofs,  and
 other impervious surfaces and from fields and  pastures,
 where once these same streams carried only the natural
 runoff from the forest land.    These natural  factors
 and phenomena contribute to the  gradual change in the
 character of the waters of Detroit River and Lake Erie
and over these there can be no control. The un-natural
 factors, however, contribute significantly and dangerously
 to the accelerated change in character of Lake Erie are
subject to control and if minimized,  can prolong for many
 centuries the life of Lake Erie  as we now know it.
             At the March, 1962,  conference on  the pollution
 of Detroit River and Lake Erie,  Wayne County informed
 the conference that it had at that time completed f
 financing arrangements for the construction of interceptor
 sewer facilities and treatment plant expansion to bring
 the operation and maintenance of the county systems

-------
                                                     1082


                 Al Barbour


 well  within  the  requirements of  the State of Michigan.


 This  construction  program has  since been essentially


 completed.   The  Wyandotte and  Trenton Sewage Plant  survey


data obtained during the course of the study by the  U.S.


 Public  Health Service was from sewage plants in the


 process of being enlarged,  but which at that time were


 overloaded and were discharging  improperly treated


 effluent to  the  Detroit River.   Since the publication


 of the  survey, the U. S. Public  Health Service has


 returned to  the  county plants  at Wyandotte and Trenton


 for the purpose  of continuing  the survey with these


 plants  in their  present operating condition.


             The  construction program described at the


 1962  conference  which included interceptors and treatment


 plant expansion  totalling $36  million has been completed.


 In addition,  Wayne County has  constructed or has under


contract, on  behalf of its municipalities, $17 million


 worth of facilities to extend  local systems into areas


 now dependent upon septic tanks.    All sewage treatment


 plants  operated  by the county  have been expanded to
          a

 provide primary  treatment capacity for at least 100  per


cent  in excess of the present  connected population.


             Wayae County has recognized that problems of


 public  health know no political  boundary and has made

-------
                                                   1083




                  Al Barbour



 capacity available in its systems for areas  outside



 of Wayne County and has offered  to continue  this  policy



 in areas now now served.      Its master plan  for



 future interceptor and treatment facilities  contemplates



 service to adjoining counties and these  counties  have



 been informed of this master plan.



             It is the position of the Wayne  County Road



 Commission that in view of the foregoing factors  and



 circumstances, the need and desirability of  a  more adequate



 degree of sewage treatment is apparent;  and  that  it is



 recognized that secondary treatment,  perhaps not  as now



 defined, but as some process more sophisticated



and advanced than present methods to achieve  safe, proper



 and adequate treatment and disposal of sewage  is



 required; and that this Board is prepared to undertake



 steps to achieve this goal.



             To this end it is proposed to conduct a survey



 with the objective of location and control at  the source



of sewage elements not susceptible to  ordinary  treatment



 methods.   It is also proposed to investigate, with a



 view toward installation and use, newly  marketed  chemical



 aids,  and to consider possible modifications of present



 plant to approach as nearly as possible  the  desired



  treatment goals.

-------
                                                      1084




                     Al Barbour




            It is further recognized that the action




taken by the Wayne County Board of Supervisors in 1955




stipulating the construction of separate sanitary sewer




systems was the first step toward ultimate separation




of storm water from sanitary sewage and that most




existing combined sewer systems are overloaded and in




need of relief; and, accordingly, this Board has embarked




upon a policy and program of construction of separate




storm sewers and of removing highway drainage from




combined sewer systems.




            It is acknowledged that no combined sewer




system can be free from the danger of flooded basements




and the attendant health hazard and individual, rather




than municipal, financial loss.




            The next step in a program of ultimate




separation of storm and sanitary sewage should be that




construction of relief facilities for existing combined




sewer systems take the form of diversion of storm water




from combined sewer systems to separate outlets, permitting




the retention and treatment of ever-increasing volumes




of storm water-sewage mixtures from existing combined




systems and ever-increasing reductions in the number,




extent, and duration of overflows to the Detroit River and




its tributaries.

-------
                                                    1085



                  Al Barbour



             It  is further  the position of this Board



 that  the  doctrine of "nobody else  does anything about it,



 why should  we?"  has no  application here, and that the




 Industrial  treatment plants and processes of waste




 control must proceed on a  parallel rather than a leading



 or following schedule of correcting and improving



programs.




             It  is in the interest  of  all parties to



 agree upon  and  to proceed  at once  to  accomplish what is




p resently possible and  to  plan ^ future actions to preserve



 to the extent of present and future abilities, the waters



 of the Detroit  River for the most  beneficial use of



present and  future generations.

-------
                                                   1086
                   Al Barbour - John Vogt
            MR. STEIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Barbour,
for an excellent statement.   I think if every city and
industry had the attitude you represent I would be out of
a Job.
            MR. BARBOUR:  Thank you very much.
            MR. OEMINQ: Thank you.
            MR. STEIN: All right. Do you want to continue
with Mr. Vogt?
            MR. OEMING:   Yes.
            MR. STEIN:  Do you have any comment, Mr.  Vogt?
I am sorry for the interruption.
            MR. VOGT:   That is perfectly all right,  Mr.
Chairman.   I think this discussion has been very
interesting and stimulating, and I think it serves to
emphasize the point which was ultimately brought out  this
morning in the questions which were submitted to the
two Public Health Service investigators, Mr. Vaughan
and Mr, Harlow, where at the end of the discussion it
was emphasized that in making a judgment as to whether
or not a particular area was safe for swimming they used
other factors than merely a particular number or a
particular coliform Index, and this was the point which
we desired to make in our presentation here.

-------
                                                      108?
                     John Vogt
            MR.  STEIN:   I  think this Is a fair  statement,
and  I think your point  is well taken, Mr. Vogt.   I have
Just a  couple of small  clarifying questions.   Indications
that we have had In Washington, and, you know, we kind
of keep a docket on all these cases, and keep clipping
them, but through  the years we have read newspaper
reports about Monroe having tast£ and odor problems in
their water Intake.   Is there anything to that, or does
t his still exist?
            MR.  VOGT:    Well, I think a lot of  communities
that use surface sources of water supply for a water
treatment plant  have various taste and odor problems
due  to  a variety of reasons,, and I think Monroe  has taste
and  odor problems  occasionally, but certainly this does
not  prevail routinely.
            MR.  STEIN:  It  rarely does.
            MR.  VOGT:   Sir?
            MR.  STEIN:      It rarely does in any city.
This is part of  the taste and odor situation.  In most
communities it is  Intermittent, and we do have a problem.
I think this Is  present throughout the country.  Some
areas have constant taste and odor problems; but most
communities do have intermittent problems.
            MR.  VOGT:   Most of those that have a surface
source  of supply to their water treatment plant.

-------
                                                     1088
                   John Vogt
            For example, we In Lansing have a well-water
 supply which Is softened, and we have a very uniform
 quality with no objectionable taste and odor at any time.
            Now, even In Detroit, or even in Chicago, or I
 presume In Washington, where you are familiar with it,
 these water utilities have taste and odor problems.
            MR. STEIN:  That is right, but the point is—
            MR. VOGT:  So, I don't know what point you
 are making here»
            MR. STEIN:  If the taste and odor problem is
due to a  discharge, and we have this in Chicago, I think
 they have been on record for years, and their record is
 clear; Chicago puts out a superb quality of water.
            As a matter of fact, where you get the inter-
 mittent problem is where you get the complaints.  Generally
 speaking, when you have a specific taste and odor problem
 as bad as it is, if it is not too bad, the people kind
of get used to the taste and smell of the water; but
 where they are accustomed to a relatively good water,
 if a taste and odor shows up, the telephone at the water
 works begins ringing, and at the Mayor's office, and
 the complaints come pouring in.
            The complaint in Chicago was that there was

-------
                                                      1089



                     John Vogt



 a  taste and  odor problem attributable  to  industrial



 discharges in Indiana,  and they wanted it stopped.



 The  question I am raising here  is  if Monroe  has  taste



aid odor problems, this  isn't  Just  something  that generally



 speaking we  Ignore in a case  of this kind.    If  this



 is related to an upstream discharge  we should know about



 it,  and see  if corrective actions  can  be  taken.   This



 is the  point I make.



             MR. VOGT:   I don't  know  whether  we know whether



 it is due to upstream discharge nor  do I  know from the



 findings whether this has pinpointed it or not,  either.



             MR. STEM:   This  is the  point we are making.



 Now, you did speak about averages  and  medians of conforms



 at Wyandotte and Monroe water intakes.    How about the



 subsequent streams?



             MR. VOGT:    I do  not have  that data  with me,



 Mr.  Stein.



             MR. STEIN:  Well,  I  meant,  I am not Just talking



 about this data,but I noted this in  the Government report,



 too.     I think very often we can  get  them this  way,



 by medians or averages  in these counts in water  pollution



control,  because you may have a fairly good  average on a



 beach,  and if the conforms or  the bacteria  counts are

-------
                                                     1090
                     John Vogt
 so high,  say for eleven days In August, you  close that
 beach for swiming.  The fact that you have  a pretty good
 average on a year-round basis doesn't speak  very well.
 I think the extremes are the things we might keep our
 eye on sometimes, and seeing to what extent  we have these
 extremes*
            MR. VOGT:  Well, certainly, Mr.  Chairman, we
 do have that data, and we do keep our eyes on it, and if
«e were concerned we would do something about it, of
 course, obviously.
            MR. STEINt   Yes. Are there any  other questions
 or comments?
            MR. BOSTON:   No questions.
            MR. OEMING:  No questions.
            MR. STEINs Thank you very much,  Mr. Vogfct
 for a very illuminating talk.
            MR. OEMXNQ:  Mr. Chairman, I expect you are
 going to  call a recess and I would like to point out,
 before you do, I would like to resume with the conclusion
 of the presentation of the balance of the report by Mr.
 Purdy upon resumption of the conference, and if possible,
1 f you wish to spend a little time, we could take care
 of a couple of statements, and I know that the

-------
                                                      1091



                   John  Vogt



County  Health Department  is  here,  and I think the  Lake



Erie  Clean-Up Committee.     They might be taken out  of



order,  but  to save time,  we  can use  the day to its best



advantage.



             MR.  STEIN:  This time  is yours.   Now, you



call  you?people  as you  wish.   If  you want to call them



before  Mr.  Purdy,  fine, or after.



             MR.  OEMING:   I  want to  finish Mr. Purdy



first.



             MR.  STEIN:  I  would think that that would be



right,  but  this  is your choice.   We shall stay recessed



for ten minutes.



             (Whereupon  a  ten-minute  recess was taken.)



             MR.  STEIN:    May we reconvene,  Mr. Oeming?



             MR.  OEMING:   Mr. Chairman, Mr. Poston,  at



this  time I would  like  to call again on Mr. Purdy  to



complete the State Report presentation.

-------
                                                   1092
                    Ralph Purdy
            MR. PURDY:  This section deals with the

status of industrial waste treatment and control.

            The report made at the first conference

sets forth the program of the Water Resources Commission

to control pollution from industrial sources in the

river basins of the southeastern Michigan region.   It

described In general terms the principal waste consti-

tuents and recited the types of actions taken by the

Water Resources Commission and its predecessor Stream

Control Commission. That portion of the Industrial

waste treatment and control chapter pertaining directly

to the industries named in the report published by

the Secretary of Health, Education, & Welfare has

been updated for this conference.   Status as of June .1,

1965, is as follows:



ALLIED CHEMICAL CORPORATION.

The General Chemical Division

            No significant changes in treatment and

control methods.

Plastics Division

            No significant changes in treatment and

control methods.

-------
                                                      1093




                    Ralph Purdy



 Semet-Solvay Division



            No  significant  changes  in  treatment and



 control methods.




 Solvay Process  Division




            Treatment and control methods have been improved,



 Measures  have been  taken to reduce  the possibility of



 accidental  oil  losses and to eliminate periodic discharges



 caused by spills  or lime losses.








 AMERICAN  AGRICULTURAL CHEMICAL  COMPANY



            The Water Resources Commission has notified



 the  company that  additional pH  controls  should be con-



sidered.   No significant changes in treatment and



 control methods.








 AMERICAN  CEMENT CORPORATION



 Peerless  Cement Company



            The Water Resources Commission has notified



 the  company that  suspended  solids are  a  significant waste




 constituent in  their effluent.    No significant changes




 in treatment and  control methods.








 ANACONDA  AMERICAN BRASS  COMPANY



            No  significant  changes  in  treatment and

-------
                                                   1094



                       Ralph Purely



 control methods.








 ARCHER-DANIELS -  MIDLAND COMPANY



             Ceased  operations at Wyandotte location.








 CHRYSLER CORPORATION



 Chemical Division and  Amplex Division



             No significant  changes  in  treatment  and



 control methods.



 Trenton Engine Plant



             No significant  changes  in  treatment  and  control



methods.








 CONSOLIDATED PACKAGING CORPORATION  (FORMERLY



  CONSOLIDATED PAPER COMPANY



 North Side Division




             The Water  Resources  Commission has notified



 the company that  the biochemical oxygen  demand of its



 effluent is a major burden  upon  the limited resources



 of the Raisin River.     No significant  changes  in



 treatment and control  methods.        straw  processing



 operations were discontinued in  1962.

-------
                                                     1095
                  Ralph Purdy
South Side Diviaion
            De-Inking  operations  have  been  essentially
eliminated reducing  waste  loading to the  river.    The
Water Resources  Commission has notified the company that
settleable solids losses are  substantial  and that  the
biochemical oxygen demand  of  its  effluent represents a
major load for the limited resources of the Raisin
River.   No significant changes in treatment and
control methods.
West Side Division
            Operations to  case July 31, 1965.

DANA CORPORATION
            The  Water  Resources Commission  has notified
the  company that  the  oil content in their  waste effluent
was slightly above the  objective sought by the Inter-
national Joint Commission.   No significant changes in
treatment and control  methods.

DARLING AND COMPANY
            The  Water  Resources Commission  has notified
the company that the biochemical  oxygen demand and
coliform  content of  its effluent  required their  attention.
Treatment and control  methods have or will  be improved  by:

-------
                                                       1096




                   Ralph Purdy



             a.   Handling of dead  stock has  been  reduced



 from about  60 to 3 animals  per day.



             b.   Chlorine feed equipment is  on  order.



             c.    Plans  are  being  prepared for  the  recon-



 struction of present  settling basins and the addition



 of a chlorine contact chamber.








 DETROIT EDISON  COMPANY  AND  POWER  REACTOR DEVELOPMENT COMPANY



             No  significant  changes in  treatment  and



 control methods.








 E. I. DU PONT DE NEMOURS AND COMPANY,  INCORPORATED



 Industrial  and  Biochemicals Department



             Pilot plant studies are under way  to develop



 new methods for reducing acid content  of wastes.








 FIRESTONE TIRE  AND RUBBER COMPANY



 Firestone Steel Products Division



             The Water Resources Commission  has notified



 the company that the  iron concentration in  its waste



 effluents exceeds the objective sought by the  inter-



rational Joint Commission and that the  pH of the  effluent



 has lower than  the minimum  objective.   No significant



 changes in  treatment  and control  methods.

-------
                                                     1097




                   Ralph Purdy








FORD MOTOR COMPANY




Metal Stamping Division - Monroe



            The Water Resources Commission has notified



the company that cyanide losses exceeded the limit imposed




by Commission Order.  Treatment and control methods have



been improved by process changes and improved control




of chemical handling .



Rouge Plant - Dearborn



            The Water Resources Commission has notified



the company of the need for additional oil recovery



facilities.  Treatment and control methods have, or will




be improved by:



            a.  Two new floating skimmers have been




placed at the Roulo Creek outlet.



            b.   A boat and motor together with an




additional floating skimmer has been located in the boat



slip area to clean away floating oil that may accumulate




in the bo&t slip or turning basin.



            c.  Plans are being developed to install a




temporary floating skimmer in the Rouge River below the



Gate 11 outlet until other permanent measures can be




developed.

-------
                                                     1098
                 Ralph Purely
 FUEL OIL CORPORATION

             Evaluation  of  effluent  quality disclosed

 need for reduction  of oil  losses.   Company subsequently

 suspended its  operations at  this site.


 GREAT LAKES  STEEL CORPORATION

 Blast Furnace  Division

             The  Water Resources Commission  has  directed

the company's attention  to  the. waste phenols,  iron,

 susperided and  settleable solids, and grease and  oils

 in their effluent.   Treatment  and control  methods have

 been improved.   Clarifiers have been rebuilt, waste vol-

 umes have been reduced  and in-plant process controls  have

 been instituted.

 Great Lakes  Steel Corp. Ecorse Mill

             The  Water Resources Commission has notified

 the company  that substantial quantities  of iron, suspended

 and settleable solids and  oils and  grease  are lost

 to the river from mill  operations.  Additional oil  removal

 facilities have  been provided  and other  major processing

 changes are  under way,  including additional waste

 treatment facilities.

-------
                                                     1099
                  Ralph Purdy


Great  Lakes Steel Corp. Hot Strip Mill
            The Water Resources Commission has called
the company's attention to the oil and suspended solids
contained in the effluent.  Extensive studies havo been
made and are continuing to determine methods for
improvement of effluent quality.


KOPPERS COMPANY
Tar and Coal Division
            Processing operations have ceased at this
location.


MC LOUTH STEEL COMPANY
Gibralter Plant
            The Water Resources Commission has notified
the company of the need for better pH control of its
effluent and reduced iron, oil, and suspended solids
losses.   Treatmen-c and control of methods have been
improved by redesign of equipment to reduce acid losses
and by additional settling and neutralization facilities.
Trenton Plant
            Staff has continued to seek improved waste
control at this plant.  Treatment and control methods

-------
                                                      1100
                   Ralph Purdy
have been improved by changing to high grade lime for
acid neutralization.   More reliable operation of the
waste treatment plant has been established by the
installation of standby equipment at critical locations
within the system and by training operators and supervisors
in the importance of proper operation of the treatment
facilities.


MOBIL OIL COMPANY
            The Water Resources Commission has notified
the company that oil losses should be reduced and that
phenol concentration in the effluent exceeded the objective
sought by the international joint commission.   Treatment
and control methods have been improved by re-routing of
waste streams for more efficient use of existing waste
treatment facilities and by in-plant process changes.


MONROE AUTO EQUIPMENT COMPANY
            No significant changes in treatment and con-
trol methods.


MONSANTO CHEMICAL COMPANY
            The Water Resources Commission has called
the Company's attention to its phosphate and suspended

-------
                                                     1101




                 Ralph Purdy



solids losses to the river.   Treatment and control



methods have been improved by the addition of a third




settling lagoon and by in-plant changes to reduce raw



material and product losses.








PARKE-DAVIS AND COMPANY




            No significant changes in treatment and control



methods.








PENNSALT CHEMICALS CORPORATION



East Plant




            The Water Resources Commission has called the



company's attention to the chloride, suspended solids, and



chlorine losses to the river.   No significant changes



in treatment and control methods.  However, studies are




under way.




West Plant



            The Water Resources Commission has notified



the company that the phenol concentration of its effluent



exceeds the objective sought by the International Joint




Commission and also their attention was directed to



suspended solids losses.   No significant changes in



waste treatment or control methods; however, studies are




under way.

-------
                                                    1102




                  Ralph Purdy








REVERE COPPER AND BRASS, INCORPORATED



            The Water Resources Commission has notified




the company of the need to reduce oil losses.  No



significant changes in treatment and control methods.








SCOTT PAPER COMPANY



            The Water Resources Commission has notified



t he company of a need for a reduction of suspended solids



in its waste effluent.   Treatment and control methods



have been improved by:



            a.    Changing to the purchase of peeled



pulpwood only,



            b.  Re-use of water.



            c.  Installation of new screens.



            d.  Reduction in lime usage.








SHAWINIGAN RESINS CORPORATION



            Treatment and control methods have been improved



by the construction of a new settling lagoon.








UNION BAG - CAMP PAPER COMPANY



River Raisin Paper Company Division



            The Water Resources Commission has notified

-------
                                                     1103




                     Ralph Purely



 the  company that  there 1.3 a  need for additional treat-




 ment facilities to improve tne wa-cer quality of




 the  Raisin River.  No significant changes In treatment



 and  control methods.








 UNITED STATES RUBBER COMPANY




             Wo significant changes in treatment and



 control methods.








 WYANDOTTE CHEMICALS CORPORATION



 North Plant




             The Water Resources Commission has  directed



the company's attention to the chloride and suspended



 solids contained  in its waste effluent.   Treatment and



 control methods have or will be improved  by:



             a.    A calcium chloride recovery plant  has




 been constructed.



             b.    Additional  waste streams will  be diverted




 to the Fighting Island settling lagoons.



            'c.  Better maintenance and control  of waste




 control facilities of the coKe plant.




 South Plant



             New propylene oxide plant  placed in operation



 with restrictions on waste effluent quality extablished

-------
                                                      1104




                     Ralph Purdy




by an Increased use Order of Determination issued




May 24, 1962, by the Water Resources Commission.  The




principal waste sources are liming tower bottoms and



caustic scrubber bottoms.  Control facilities necessary




to comply with the Order requirements were installed




coincident with start of operations.  Liming tower wastes



are pumped to the Fighting Island settling lagoons.




Treatment and control methods for other plant sources




have been improved as the result of:




            a.  The "A" section of the glycol plant has



been shut down with subsequent reduction of oil losses.




            b.  Liming tower and cracking wastes have been




diverted to the Fighting Island settling lagoons.




            c.  The dry ice plant has ceased operation.




            In addition, studies are under way to




reduce chloride losses from the Mercury chlorine cells.

-------
                                                       1105




                       Ralph Purdy








                 MONITORING OF AREA WATERS




            Patrols of the entire Detroit River and the



lower Rouge River were initiated in August I960.




Observations are made, as long as weather permits, from




a radio-equipped powerboat.  Originally during adverse




weather, observations were made from an automobile at




vantage points along the shore.  Since the winter of




1962, routine observations have been made during




the winter months from a helicopter.  Observations of




unusual or objectionable waste discharges or river




conditions are reported immediately to the offender




and are further followed up by the Michigan Water




Resources Commission District Engineer.




            In March 1963 a water quality monitoring




program was established on each of twenty-eight drainage




basins in the lower Peninsula.   Samples are collected by




Water Resource Commission personnel at each station on,




as nearly as possible, a bi-weekly schedule.




            The results of the analyses at these stations




serve to provide information for evaluating pollution




abatement needs.  The results are published each year




on a calendar-year basis.  Three rivers are sampled in




the Detroit-Monroe areas, and these are:

-------
                                                    1106



                        Ralph Purdy








            1.  Raisin River In the middle of the



dredged channel opposite the city dump at Monroe.



            2.    Huron  River at the River Road



Bridge, 3.5 miles southeast of Rockwood.



            3.  Rouge River at the Detroit, Toledo,and



Ironton Railroad Bridge to Zug Island,

-------
                                                      1107
                    Ralph Purdy


                     SUMMARY
             The Michigan Water Resources Commission and
 the Michigan Department of Health efforts combined with
 that of the Commission member agencies, in reducing
 pollution of Michigan waters as needed have been identified
 and outlined in the first report of the State and by this
 report.  This has been accomplished by fact-finding,
 counseling, persuasion, and where necessary, the exercise
 of procedures authorized by statute.   The Health
 Commissioner has withheld construction permits for new
 public sewer systems or extensions to existing systems.
 He has exercised due care to see that sewage systems are
 properly planned, constructed and operated.   He has
 classified the waste water treatment plants and required
 that the operator in responsible charge of each plant be
 certified as to competency and operation of plants of that
 class, and he has required each community operating
 sewage system to submit sucn records as he considers
necessary to show adequacy of the performance.
             Conferences to show why pollution has not been
 abated have been held before the Water Resources Commission,
 New or Increased pollution has been prevented by Orders
 of Determination and existing pollution has been abated

-------
                                                    1108
                     Ralph Purdy
by the Final Orders of Determination, "both Issued by the
¥ater Resources Commission pursuant to its statutory
authority.      Orders and agreements of the State Health
Commissioner have been equally effective.   ¥here com-
pliance was not forthcoming, the Water Resources Commission
and Health Commissioner have sought and have obtained
enforcement in the courts through referral of the
defaulted Order or agreement to the Attorney General,
            The Secretary cff Health, Education, and
Welfare has, through the study and report, assisted
the State of Michigan by identifying the sources of
pollution going into the Detroit River and Michigan
waters of Lake Erie, and by providing quantitative data
on present water quality.     Such additional controls
as are necessary to meet the requisites of Michigan statutes
will be required.

-------
                                                      1100




              Ralph   Purdy



            MR. STEIN: Thank you, Mr. Purdy, for an



excellent  statement. Are there any comments or questions?



            MR. POSTON:  I do not have any at this time.



            MR. STEIN:   I think I will Just ask one



clarifying  question  here.  In some of tht industries you



have made  recommendations or notification to them?



            MR. PURDY:   Yes, sir.



            MR. STEIN: Other industries this isn't stated.



Does the lack of  that  statement have any significance?



            MR. PURDY:  If we have made a recommendation



for additional waste treatment facilities, it would be



stated.



            MR. STEIN:   In some cases it was not?



            MR. PURDY:   In that case we have not made



a  statement to the  Industry since the March  1962, con-



ference that additional controls were necessary.



            MR. STEIN:  This does not necessarily mean



that the situation  in  that industry is satisfactory,  or



one way or the other;  the absence of such?



            MR. PURDY:  It means with the information that



we had available  to us at that time that a need for



additional controls had not been identified.



            MR. STEIN:  Thank you. This is for clarifica-

-------
                   Ralph Purdy                      1110
tion:  On page 21, under Allied Chemical Corp., this
Is the Solvay Process Division, there is no indication
that you notified the company; yet, it says "Treatment
and control methods have been improved."    Did they
Just do this voluntarily?
            MR. PURDY: This is on a voluntary cooperative
basis.
            MR. STEIN: Without your asking them?
            MR. PURDY: Without our formal notification.
            MR. STEIN:  Thank you.
            Are there any further questions?
            MR. QEMINGh   No.
            MR. STEIN:  All right; thank you very much.
            MR. OEMING:  Mr. Stein, at this time I would
like co provide the opportunity for a statement to be
presented by the Macomb County Health Department.  I
believe Mr. Merlin E. Damon is here to present a short
statement.
            MR, DAMON:  For the record, I am Merlin Danon,
Sanitary Engineer with the Macomb county Health Department,
            Mr. Chairman and conferees, the Macomb County
Health Department wishes to submit the following statement
for the record:

-------
                                                       1111




                    Merlin Damon



             As was previously stated in March  1962,  this



 department along with the governmental officials  of this



 county have been concerned with the abatement of  water



 pollution.  We believe this is apparent from the  report



 of the findings of the Federal survey which indicate



 that water quality at the head of the Detroit River



 appears to be of high quality other than following  periods



of storm runoff.



             Further,  we believe our past records  of



 accomplishments in the field of pollution control speak



 for themselves.  Since the conference in 1962 many  mil-



 lions of dollars have been spent and allocated for



 continued pollution control work in the Macomb County



 area.



             Although realizing that the Federal installa-



 tion at Selfridge Air Force Base was not within the



 boundaries of this survey, we would appreciate receiving



 factual data relating to sewage discharges from their



 main sewage treatment plant in addition to sewage discharges



 from other installations on the base.  These requests are



 based on need for answers to the numerous citizen com-



 plaints received from the surrounding area by our



 department.

-------
                                                        1112




                     Merlin Damon




            As -was stated In 1962, we are continuing to




give attention to the matter of pollution relating to




watercraft, ranging in size from the small boats3 used




for recreational purposes, to the Great Lakes and ocean-




going vessels.




            Again we wish to thank you for this




opportunity to state our position and assure you of our




interest and continued desire to control water pollution.




            MR. STEIN:  Thank you, Mr. Damon.  Let us see




if we can find out about Selfridge Air Base.  Do you know




about that?




            MR. POSTON:  Is Mr. Todd A. Gayer here?




Could you tell us about Selfridge? Come up.  We would




like to know about the Selfridge Air Force Base and the




treatment facilities and their discharges.




            MR. GAYER:  I don't know this off the top of




my head.  We do have this information available.




            MR. STEIN:  Is the information available?




            MR. GAYER:  Yes, the report has been made




and it' is on file with the Michigan Water Resources




Department.




            MR. OEMING:  No, we do not have it.




            MR. STEIN:  They don't seem to.

-------
                                                     1113



                     Todd Gayer




            You do not have it.  This obviously looks




like we are dealing with many layers of many organiza-




tions — I almost said bureaucracies.  I think the issue



here is, "Let us make an effort."  Mr. Gayer, will you




take it upon yourself to be sure that if Michigan has it




-- unless you have some objection -- I think the normal




operation is that Mr. Damon should get that from your




office and deal with your office on this, unless you




want him to deal with us directly.  How do you want to




handle it?




            MR. OEMING:  Let us let this be decided later.




If Mr. Gayer gets this information, this report,




arrangements can be made — and let us know -- arrange-




ments can be made to see that the information gets to the




people.




            MR. STEIN:  All right.  We shall make the




report available and we shall check.  Now, if the report




is not available, or you cannot get it for some reason,




we shall let you know, too, and we shall get it




because we want this.  I believe it is available.




            MR. GAYER:  It has been completed.




            MR. POSTON:  I think this could be obtained




this afternoon, could it not?




            MR. OEMING:  No.  We are talking about

-------
                       Todd Gayer




two separate things, Mr. Poston.  I think what Mr.



Damon was talking about was operating reports for




the sewage treatment facilities at the Air Force Base.




This is the routine operating reports.




            MR. DAMON:  This is correct, plus there are




Army installations on the base that are not connected,




to the best of my knowledge, to the Air Force Base sewage



treatment facilities, and I am interested in what happens




to these, because we have some serious thoughts about




these.  It is not only the sewage treatment.




            MR. GAYER:  We do not receive operating records



from any of the Federal installations.




            MR. STEIN:  No, I don't think we do have




that.




            MR. GAYER:  This would go in to the Surgeon




General of the Air Force operation.




            MR. STEIN:  Do you have a question that there



may be a pollution problem from the base?




            MR. DAMON:  Yes, we do.




            MR. STEIN: I don't want to give you a




wrong impression on this or what we are goine to get




for you.  If you have a question that there may be a




pollution problem from the base, we shall investigate that,




*ork on that with the State, and attempt to get a

-------
                                                      1115



                     Todd Gayer



 report,  if available,  and we shall give you our analysis



 of the pollution problem.       I do not want to say



 to you that we can get you operation reports,  because



 we do not have them.   I do not want to make a commitment



 to say that we can give you what we don't have in our



files.     Anything we  have in our files on the Federal



 installation,  other than anything that is confidential



 or secret for national security reasons, is available



 to you;  but we do not  have that.   We shall at least



gpt enough information  so that a satisfactory conclusion



 can be made whether they are causing the problem,  and



 if they are, we shall  surely take steps to see that  they



 correct it.



             MR. DAMON: Thank you.



             MR. OEMING:   Mr. Stein, may I make a  commenu



 here?   I do not know  whether this might result in



 some recrimination, but the State Health Department



advises me that they get reports from some Air Force



 bases of sewage treatment plant operations.    Apparently



 this is not a  policy that applies uniformly at all bases;



 and in the Selfridge Air Force base they cannot get  the



 reports.



             MR. STEIN:     May I go off the record here?



 I shall be glad to talk, but I do not want to be the

-------
                                                         1116

                       Todd Gayer

spokesman for the Air Force.

            MR. OEMING:  Tes.

            MR. STEIN:  Or another Federal agency.
                                             n
            (Discussion off the record.)

            MR. STEIN:  You have to recognize that

many Federal installations, in carrying out Federal

functions do not recognize State authority.  Some of

them do that as a matter of policy and let you have

these reports.  Some of them do not.  It is kind of

hard for us to get them to do  f-hat.  By the way, we

have had this, and you can see the implications in the

policy if you will bear with me for a moment, and under-

stand this.

            We have had certain States where they have

wanted our doctors and our engineers to be licensed and

registered under the State laws that we had the installa-

tions in.  Obviously, in running a Federal establishment

you cannot assume that kind of a requirement, with the

way we shift people and have to carry out the Federal

functions.  Of course, this has been steadfastly

maintained, and the courts, of course, have supported it.

Some of the people in charge of the installations take

the Constitutional requirement very strongly.  As a

-------
                                                       1117



matter of fact, if we did not have -- and I don't know how



many of you fellows have gone around the Army or Air Force



and Naval bases — but if we did not have a strong,



energetic man at the top of it, you wouldn't want them in




their Jobs, and this fellow is not too amenable sometimes



to providing these kinds of reports to State authorities



which he doesn't feel have Jurisdiction over them.



            This is why the Congress has given up the



authority and they had to give it up.  Very often the



State cannot get it and we get it, and when we get it,



it is a matter of public information.



            We shall be glad to cooperate with you on




this, and I Just ask that you look at the complete picture




and try to work with us.



            Now> we have never yet found that -=• and I am



talking in terms of pollution problems, aside from



Jurisdictional and other problems -- but as far as a



pollution problem we have never found a practical




situation with a Federal installation that we could not



come to a reasonable agreement with the installation and



the State authorities.  I expect we shall be able to




do that here with a little work> but I do not want to



guarantee you that an individual post commander is going

-------
                                                     1118

                      Merlin Damon  - John Chasesa

 to supply you with reports; because we have been

 unsuccessful in that in the past, but we shall get the

 situation resolved.

             MR. DAMON:   Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 At this time I would like to call on the Lake Erie Clean-
                                    \
 Up Committee of Newport,  Michigan, to make a statement,

 Mr. John Chases^,   is he here?

             While  lie is coming up, Mr. Chairman, I

 neglected to announce that copies of the State report

 that was presented by Mr. Vogt and Mr. Purdy are available

 if anyone wishes them.        I don't know where they are

at the moment, but  there is a supply of them around

 here.     They are ov€fr here on this side along this

 aisle.

             MR. CMSCSA:    Mr. Boston, Mr. Stein, Mr.

 Oeming, and conferees,  and ladies and gentlemen:

 I did not expect to make a large report.  The last time

 I did in 1962 it seemed to be quite a lengthy one.

 This time I am going to try to refrain from reading as

 much of it as 'I have here, but I shall turn it over to

 t he conferees as their property after I am through.

             MR. STEIN:    Mr. Chasesa, do you want the

 whole report to appear in the record as if read?

             MR. CHASCSA:   As much of it as you feel—

-------
                                                     1119
                     John Chasesa
            MR. STEIN:  Well, how long is it?
            MR. CHASCSA:   It is only a couple of pages.
            MR. STEIN:   We shall print the whole thing.
            MR. CHASCSA:   Yes; but I do have additional
copies of reports that were submitted to me by other
member groups of the Lake Erie Clean-Up Organization.
            MR. STEIN:  Without objection, we shall include
those in the record.
            MR. CHASCSA: But I would rather not reau
those. They are lengthy and technical.
            MR. STEIN:   No; you can submit them and they
will appear.
            MR. CHASCSA: Thank you.  First of 'all, I
would like to show you a picture here of what Sterling
State Park looks like today.     You people cannot see
this.  There is a bulldozer and about a half a dozen people
cleaning up the beach.   That is the way it looks today.
            In the June 23, 1962, issue of the Monroe News
it showed a picture of Sterling State Park as it was at
that time.    There were several hundred people here in
the picture, and I am sure if there should be someway
to get it to you you would notice the difference.
            After listening to all this talk up here

-------
                                                       1120




                     John Chasosa




about the possibility of the Lake not being polluted,




the River not being polluted, I think these pictures




alone would substantiate this.  Also, I am going to




include this little clipping here, "Swimming Pools make




a Big Splash in Michigan."  It is a heck of a lot better




to swim In chlorinated water than it is in water that




the good Lord made for us.




            As President of the Lake Erie Clean-Up




Committee, I find it is my duty to oppose the method of




the supervisors of the Intercounty Committee's proposal



in which they propose to dispose of the wastes, Industrial




and municipal, to the use of a proposed Interceptor sewer




winding through five of the six counties which are




Joined together in the Intercounty Development Plan.




The small community such as Estral Beacn, or the




communities beginning at Estral Beach, have no chance for




survival, no matter how you work at it.  We cannot even




borrow enough for a study.  As pointed out previously,




there are reasons for many actions taken by people who we




feel are doing an unselfish service for us.  Now, what




would possibly be the reasoning for a request from the




Detroit Water Authority to supply water to Flint?




            In 1964 there appeared in the Detroit News




an article stating Detroit is willing to give water to

-------
                                                        1121




                     John Chascsa




these areas if they will also accept the most




liberal plan that would include disposition of the sewage




from the area, as well.




            On August 24, 1963, there appeared an article



stating that Oakland County would get sewers and water at




a very liberal cost.




            On July the 3rd, 1963, there was a request




by a Detroit official to dump raw sewage into the Detroit




River for ten days.




            August 23, 1963, Pontiac is given water




from Detroit.




            August 24, 1963* Mr. Remus, general manager




of Detroit's Water Supply reported to Council that Detroit




will extend its sewer strip into Oakland County to tie in




with the interceptor sewer.




            The reason that we are concerned that these




growing areas do not individually build small sewage




treatment plants along the Clinton River, is pollution of




the Clinton River, which empties into Lake St. Clalr, is




an added threat to pollute water.




            August 30, 1963, Dr. Heustis cites typhoid.




            July 20, 1963, Kent County issues hepatitis




warning.

-------
                                                      1122



                   John Chascsa



             July 4, 1963, ships blamed for pollution of



 Huron beaches.



             February 2, 1965, cnemlcal firm seeks reaction



ta-putting waste into River Raisin.



             December 25, 1963, three Michigan schools



 close; hepatitis hits schools.



             March 20, 1965, Adrian and Vlctorville Schools



 closed; water supplyuunsafe.



             February 6,1965, Blissfield area school closed



 because of pollution.



             April 22, 1964, the Canadian Globe & Mail



 quotes members of Parliament, "Lakes becoming large



 septic tanks."



             This could go on and on.   Please note that



 some of these items are in some way related to the l8l



 miles of sewer being planned, in case you are not acquainted



 with it—I think Mr. Oeming Is.  I think your intercounty



 sewage study report gives the length of them as being



 l8l miles.  What could possibly be the reason?  Because



 in the opposite direction—and that is where I live,



 where we receive all of this stuff, toward Toledo and



 Monroe the water situation Is bad, and State and Federal



 authorities try to discourage tapping the waters of

-------
                                                     1123
                 John Chasesas
Huron, River Raisin, or Lake Erie.   The reason is the
Lake is an open sewer and dumping ground for anything
and everything that is not wanted, from all sources;
industrial wastes, municipal sewage, dredging from the
rivers and creeks, as well as other refuse.
            By 1970 Monroe will not be able to use Lake
Erie as a water source.  With water studies on water
quality, and so on and so forth, in the past 40 or 50
years, it still is not getting through to the right minds
that these are the things that have destroyed civilization
since before Christ.    In Rome, in Babylon, this happened.
            In Deuteronomy, Chapter 23, Verse 13—arid
this I did not search out.   This happens to have been
called to my attention j.n one of the sewage manuals that
is distributed, and I shall read it verbatim:   "And
thou- i shall have a paddle upon thy weapon and it shall be
when thee will ease thyself abroad Lnee shall give fair
witness and shall turn back and cover that which cometh from
you."
            The above was taken from the Manual of
Instructions of Sewage Treatment Plant Operators of the
Health Education Service, Post Office Box 7283, Albany,
New York*
            Then it goes on to say "Water, itself, is not

-------
                                                    1124




                     John Chascsa




infectious, but Is rendered infectious to consumers by




infection organisms in number sufficient to produce




diseases.




            "The term 'pollution,'  for Instance, is of




general significance and should be  understood to imply




the fouling of an otherwise inoffensive water by sewage




or other liquid or suspension, thus rendering it offensive




to sight, smell, and unsatisfactory fo~ palatable,




culinary or ingestive uses.  The word 'infective' has been




employed to note contamination of water by patnogenic



organisms."




            This above was taken from the American




Waterworks  'Association Manual on Water Quality Improvement,




            Some firms such as the  Humble Oil Company




of Texas have spent thousands of dollars to treat their




wastes so it can be made safe.  Gerber Baby Foods has




rectified their nuisance by using it to a favorable



advantage.




            Due to the lack of time to give this all here,




and also in view of the fact that it has been inserted




in the 1962 conference, I would like only to briefly call




to your attention what is being accomplished; because the




sewage that was being dumped into the Fremont River by

-------
                                                      1125
                  John Chasesac
Gerber was contaminating the water to the extent that
the fish were dying, and it was becoming a nuisance, so
they bought a farm, and they rectified it by taking nine
miles of pipe and piping their waste to the farm, thereby
creating one of the nicest experimental farms there is
in the area.
            Is it possible that Sagonac Bay is becoming
another Lake Erie?    I think a mention of that was made
today.
            j;s it possible that some great financial
tycoon doesn't want filth around Flint, and has encouraged
the use of public funds to the tune of 378 million
dollars to put an interceptor sewer from around Flint
and wind through five of the six counties for a part of
the six-county Intercounty Supervisors Committee for
l8l miles of sewer to empty into the Huron River at
Lake Erie?
            Lake Erie is posted with "Unsafe for Swimming"
signs at Sterling State Park.   Why not all the beach
area all the way to the Detroit River?
            As pointed out in the U. S. Public Health
report, Detroit has only one treatment plant, and no
secondary facilities at all.  There are many miles of

-------
                                                      1126



                 John Chasesas



sewers being diverted into" Detroit's plant.



            In Detroit there has been an expenditure of



over 300 million dollars on interceptor sewers since 1957.



Not one cent has been used to rectify the combination storm



and sanitary sewers.   No effort has been made to eliminate



the flushing of the treated solids into the Detroit River



from the treatment plant on West Jefferson Avenue and



subsequent disposition in Lake Erie.



            On February 4, 1965* a bill was proposed to



control the water use and bathing at Sterling State Park,



which was rather a ridiculous thing.   How do you know



when the water is going to be polluted and when it isn't?



            Last fall a request was made by the Sewer



Department of Detroit to be permitted to dump raw sewage



into the Detroit River for several weeks.   The reason



was that a need to repair a valve at the Pairview Pumping



station was evident.



            It is my understanding that this action has



been an annual ritual with one exception.   For



several years this has been done, but permission was



never requested before.



            Imagine, if you can, 125 million gallons of



raw sewage being dumped into the river every day for

-------
                                                       1127



                     John Chascsa



several weeks.  Thank goodness we have a conscientious



group of you as Public Health Service personnel on the



Job.  Otherwise we might have experienced tehe same condi-



tions as Toledo did last year.  Every available pump in




Toledo, Ohio, was conscripted and put to use pumping



raw sewage'into the Miami River.  What would occur in



Wayne County alone, without adding another 181 miles of



sewer pipe?




            This actually happened, for example:  in



Minnesota, Congressman Blatnik assisted all small



communities to obtain funds for a sewage treatment plant



at Watercrest.  We, especially in the Monroe area, are



unable to get relief at any time, and this is a fact.



However, we do pay taxes that cities like Detroit are able




to obtain for almost any purpose, and especially to



eliminate any possibility of our communities ever being




able to use the river and lake as a source of water



supply.  We expect the public to install proper



plumbing and we enforce the rule here.  However, when



it applies to large corporations or municipalities



there are exceptions or excuses for one reason or another.




            Let us adopt uniform rules, regulations, and



laws, and honestly abide by them.  There is absolutely




no reason for any individual or corporation to feel nee

-------
                                                       1128
                     John Chascsa
                                                        t»
is entitled to abuse another for personal gain of any
type.  If we have a problem, let us roll up our sleeves
and solve it.  If we are going to claim the title of
Water Wonderland, let us work at it.  If we are going
to attempt to preserve some of our natural forests,
wildlife, and clean water, let us plan for it.  Let
us keep the upper peninsula of Michigan in a virgin state
as long as possible, and let us stop adding to the
pollution in the lower peninsula, especially in the
Lake Erie and Detroit area, by adding additional inter-
ceptor sewers with no plants for treatment of sewage.
            Let us develop and improve lower Michigan
as an industrial wonderland with proper facilities for
purifying and eliminating water and air pollution
altogether.  The good Lord gave us these natures to
enjoy.  Why must we destroy them or deprive our neighbors from
enjoying them?  It is not impossible and it must be done.
            See what pollution has done to our shore line.
You can see this any place at all in the Lake Erie area,
if you take a trip down there.
            The second section of this has a gruesome
title, perhaps, but it is true, "The Rape of a Water
Wonderland."
            In the July 1962 issue of the Readers Digest

-------
               John Chascsa                         1129
there appeared an article on page 151 titled "Rape of our
Southern Mountains."  Every American should have read It.
Every voting American should have read It; every voting
American should have remembered It; and every penny-
budgeting housewife; every sportsman; and every con-
scientious Christian should have read it, and done
something about it, even if he only Hung his head in shame
            To commercialize on the gullibility of poor-
hill folks is not Christian.  To abuse the stature of
being a businessman by destroying the life-blood of those
of our citizens through so-called shrewd business mani-
pulations is certainly un-American and un-Christlan.
            When we, as individuals, resign ourselves
to a state of deplorable complacence by accepting it, do-
nothing bureaucrats who spend our money as well as set
the amount of tribute, we must pay to maintain the
bureaucracies, is something we have no power or sav-so
about, then we are lost.
            We elect men to represent us in various
phases of government to do our bidding and to help us
determine the best course to follow.  Unfortunately,
only a very few take their oaths seriously.  Very few
attend all sessions that are held in Washington, and in
our State and County legislative capitols.

-------
                                                      1130



                     John Chasesa



            We have created agencies and commissions




and various study groups, and, frankly, I believe the



committee studying the sex life of the gnat is about




the most capable of submitting an acceptable report,



if there is such a committee.   Since the late 1950's we



have had one after another anti-pollution committees




created.  We have had a geological study on in the Great



Lakes for many years; geologists, biologists, and



conservationists, health authorities,  and many,  many



more, who have compiled tons  and tons  of reports.



            In the past 40,  50 or 60 years we have



bragged of our intelligence  and know-how to do more  and



better than any other nation  on earth.   We have proven



that we can fly, send rockets  and missiles any place



on earth, and probably to the  moon, and we have not



skimped on the cost of these  exoeriments, in spite of



the staggering amounts.  Yes,  we could  be proud of our



so-called accomplishments.  We should  be very proud  and



very humble in dealing with our less fortunate neighbors



also, no matter who chey are.   The trip-to-the-moon



commission has never been denied their request for funds.



These are always available.



            The committees on pollution study, water,



health, public safety, sanitation, and many environmental

-------
                                                     1131
                John Chascsa

aspects of our well-being have been belittled and

slighted and pushed aside for almost a whole decade of

studies until today,and we suddenly realize the Importance

of safe, clean water.  Of what earthly use are all the

facts and figures gathered In the past 50 years to us?

We permit lobbyists to legally have our laws changed to

suit their clients' wants.    We disregard the riparian

rights of the little guy who is all-important at

election:time and forgotten after election.

            In 1961 Governor John B. Swalnson was asked

to call the U. S. Public Health Service into study of

the pollution problem in the Detroit River, Lake Erie,

Lake St. Clair, Huron River, River Raisin areas, and

many smaller tributaries leading into our lakes.

What was the real reason?     Did someone feel sorry

for the plight of the residents along the Detroit River

or Lake Erie, or was there another reason?    Did the pipe-

dream of the Detroit and Wayne County planners backfire

when they found their plans for another Italian dinkus

type of island change spilled silt into their water

supply system at Belle Isle.     Remember the screaming

public demand on "What went wrong?  Why the bad taste?

Why the industrial waste?" and so on and so forth.

            Was this a way to get Federal funds to

-------
                                                       1132
                  John  Chascsaa
 pipe water from Lake Huron?     Perhaps  It  should be
 interesting to  note the  chain of  events prior to and

 after the S.O.S.  for all the people under  Federal
 Jurisdiction to come to  the aid of the  large  metropolis

of Detn&it.
             Oh,  yes, we  all pay Federal taxes, and only
 the large cities and those with pull are worthy of
 getting any finances for the things needed to maintain
 good health and other  necessities of which we hear and
 are told we should have  to be good citizens and healthy
 Americans.
            Most:often  you ;Just  cannot afford  even a trip
 to Washington to  seek  assistance.
             However, one of our more ambitious mayors
 requested 50 thousand  dollars to  maintain an  office In
 Washington to be  nearer  the source of Federal grants,
 loans,  and gifts. Thanks to Council Woman Mary Beck it
 was defeated.

             You may say  "What has this  all to do with
 pollution?"   Well, let  us look back a  bit on the 27th
 and the 28th of March  of 1962.      A conference was held
 at the  Veterans Memorial Hall in  Detroit.  The findings
 of the  U.  S.  P.H. S. substantiated that there was

-------
                                                     1133
                   John Chascsa
 definite  cause for a thorough investigation into the
 cause  of  polution.    This was substantiated by written
 and oral  evidence by many State agencies;  the Army Corps
 of Engineers;  and various enforcement  groups and citizens
 groups known as the Lake Erie Clean-Up Committee,  who
 not only  substantiated these assertions but also
 submitted written evidence; and there  were also 29
 charges of water pollution in various  degrees,  taken at
 29 separate locations, ranging from Toledo, Ohio,  the
 State  line, to and including River Raisin, Lake Erie,
 Swan Creek, Huron River, Detroit River, and the Rouge
 River.
             A  statement was made at this conference that
 the people in  the Lake Erie and Monroe area could  not
 possibly  have  such a problem.
             One of Detrolts leading citizens even  went
so far  as  to state a little refuse doesn't  hurt anyone,
 and that  perhaps we would be asked to  put  diapers  on the
 wild ducks flying over these waters so it  could stay
clean.   A  very  Intelligent remark was made  by a man who
was looked up  to by him.  In recent statements to  the
 press  he  ridiculed the U. S. P.H. S. for doing a thorough
 Job.  I know it was thorough, because  I personally

-------
                                                     1134
                  John Chascsas
followed all, or almost all of this study.  When other
organizations were able to, they also followed the
progress.   According to this man's statement this was
all a waste of time and uncalled f6r.   The water quality
is so much more improved and has been on the upgrade
since 1940.   If this water is so much better, then the
Jars we have—I do not have them on display, but I do have
them in the car, and if you people on the panel would
like to have them, I would be more than happy to have
my friend bring them in here, and let you see what the
water looks like today; and it has been an improvement
evervsince 1940.
            On March 27, 1964, the Hater Resources
Commission granted permission for the Stopper Chemical
Corp. to dump $4,000 worh of chloride into River Raisin.
            On May 14, 1964, the State Conservation Board
takes action to get two additional parks.  They cannot
take care of the ones that we have.
            On March 24, 1964, Home Canning Company in
Blissfield resented the permission granted by the State
Water Resources Commission to the Stauffer Company.
            On March 28, 1964, Representative Hayes'
bill passed to permit boats under 25 feet to dump waste

-------
                                                       1135
                   John Chasesa

 into our waters.    If you have a boat that is smaller

than 25 feet in length you can go out there and dump

 whatever you want, according to this bill.

             I shall submit clippings to show how much

 Lake Erie has deteriorated.  As Justice William 0.

 Douglas stated, sewage treatment plants, and not dams,

 a re needed.

             Along the Lake Erie shore line there are many

 communities.   Most of them are suitable for all sorts

 of recreation.

             The subcommittee on the Lake Erie technical

 ;study group, or the technical study group of the Lake

 Erie Committee, has recommended that we come up with some

 sort of program  as to what most of this area could be

 used for, and most of it—especially areas like Sterling

 State Park, which is an Ideal location for tourists—

 and we do want to draw tourists into the area,  as the

 entrance to the Water Wonderland.  We find that people

 do not care to use it for some unknown reason,  except

 perhaps the signs that are posted scare them away.   No

 one cares to oppose a sign that states that the water

 in the area is not safe for swimming or recreation.

             This site offers a possible trailer-camp site,

 and what could be an ideal picnic site; Ideally located

-------
                                                     1136




                     John Chascsa



for Ohio, Indiana,  Pennsylvania, and Michigan residents




to get to in a little time,  and close enough to employment




that it could be an ideal location.



            The Swan Creek and Estral Beach area, with




little financial effort and a determination to develop




a small craft harbor, could be turned into a financial




boon to Monroe County, as well as Berlin County.  Estral




Beach offers a very large area for small craft refuge and




Swan Creek offers a most enviable position for the




accommodation of small boat races, rowing contests, and




many related fund-raising activities.



            There is room for the development of water-




side motels, hotels, restaurants, and so on, and so forth,




and .we could go on and on and mention every one of these




verbatim.




            Then February 17, 1965,  there appeared a



small article in the Monroe Evening News.  "I am nine




and I am interested in fish.  I have been reading about




water pollution and how it kills fish.  I was wondering




what the City of Monroe is doing about water pollution."




I wrote him a letter after quite considerable thinking.




How do you answer a nine-year-old's letter?  How do you




make him understand that we, who are supposed to be in




the know-how, who are smart enough to tell people in

-------
                                                     1137



                   John Chasesac



Europe and In Asia and all over the world how



they should live, how can you tell a nine-year-old



kid what is wrong with the things that he mostly enjoys



like swimming and fishing.   Probably some of you do not



have children.   I have six of my own, and fii^e children,



I love to see them enjoy the good clean waters, and I



am sure everyone on this panel here would like to see



the same thing.



            But, finally, here is what I came up with—



if you don't mind, Mr. Stein?



            MR. STEIN: Go right ahead.



            MR. CHASCSAS:  I wrote, "Dear David:



            "How does one answer a nine-year-old boyte



letter?    It is difficult, but I will try.  Although



you probably have never heard of me, I feel as though



I have known you all of your young life.  You see, I



have two boys and four girls, and they, too, were nine



years old at one time.   Like yourself, they enjoyed



to swim, boat, and fish, and though they are now



much older they still enjoy the water.



            "My children were able to swim in Lake Erie



without too much fear up until five years ago.   Since



then, however, my youngest daughter is unable to swim In

-------
                                                   1138
                John Chascsa
Lake Erie because whatever pollutes the water makes
her ill and causes her skin to erupt.
           "I can recall when as a boy I could drink
this water without any ill effects; but today it would
be foolhardy to even try.
           "In 1961 Mary Margaret Revel attempted to swim
a long distance down the Detroit River to Lake Erie
and Toledo.
            "In August, 1962, Barbara Smith tried to
swim from Amersford, Ontario to the River Raisin at
Monroe.
            "Both girls became very ill from the
pollution in both the Detroit River and Lake Erie.
            "Yes, Dafcld, many tests have been made of
the water in Lake Erie and streams emptying Into it,
but it seems that there is still enough room to store
additional research data, and we probably will not see
the day when actual efforts are put Into motion to once
again make these waters safe.
            "Pollution, which starts at the kitchen sink,
at the drains of factories, and at the sewers of munici-
palities wind up eventually in our rivers and lakes.
            "Yes, David, studies have been conducted

-------
                                                        1139



                     John Chascsa




for the past forty years or more, and many are being




conducted at the present time.  Many village, county




and State committees are functioning as representatives




of those of us who are paying their salaries, and they




certainly have not given us our dollar's worth.




            "Then, too, David, there is the big over-




shadowing benevolence of some industries who tell us,




the public, that they will give us a playground, a nice




large swimming pool, a nice money contribution for a




civic center, and many other good things; all of this




to be given at no cost to the communities affected in




return for permission to pollute our rivers and lakes.




Yes, David, no cost.




            "Let us see how this works, for the sake of




something to say, when some industries move into a




community.  The air becomes white -- yes, it becomes




white.  Those of you who live in Delray and in Wyandotte




know what I mean when I say that — with lime dust; red




with iron ore dust; black with coal dust, and on top of




all this, smelly.



            "The waters that I could swim in as a boy of




nine, drink without filtering, and fish in, are now dirty,




slimy, and all colors of the rainbow.  Very little

-------
                                                   1140





                   John Chascsa



fishing now; to drink the water would be suicidej and



swimming is only for the daredevil types.   Yes, David,



our waters have become like Russian roulette.  One never



knows when nepatltls, dermatitis, typhoid, or perhaps



something worse will get you.



            "In 1962 our Water Resources Commission and



our Health Department and several of our commissions



told us the people have nothing to worry about in Monroe



County.  The siltation that is prevalent in the lake is



natural and cannot be controlled.   They failed, however,



to mention how many times a day barge after barge dropped



waste from dredging and other sources and dumped it into



Lake Eire.  They also did not mention the mess made by



dumping the wastes from River Raisin, River Rouge, and



the Detroit River into Lake Erie, and the resulting



end, the destruction of all the beach areas in Michigan



and Ohio which border Lake Erie.



            "Oh, yes, they also do not mention the



eight dumping grounds from Cleveland to the mouth of the



Detroit River.



            "Yes, David, educated adults deprived you of



your right to accept or reject something which you have



a right to.   It is not considered wrong) it is politic.



            "If you should pile your rubbish alongside

-------
                     John Chascsa




of your neighbor's fence and it spills over into his




yard, you were wrong.  If you were to build an outhouse




at the rear of your yard and it smells up the neighbor-




hood, you most certainly are wrong, and you could be




put into Jail and looked upon as an idiot for daring to




endanger the health of your neighbors.  But not if you




pollute the rivers or lakes.




            "Yes, David, when you talk of these things




to some of our public protectors they say water can be



made safe for human consumption; but not so long ago in




Colorado the water in a small community was treated so




very thoroughly that it caused the hospitals in the



area to be filled  with nine-year-old children, as well




as others over and under nine.




            "D?vid, when you grow up I hope you will be




able to help make people realize that everyone should




be considered when water and air is to be polluted by




anyone.  I hope when you are a man that other men will




have developed not only a rocket to the moon, fresh




water from sea water, missiles that can be sent soaring




five thousand miles or more, but also a healthy respect




for their fellow man by purifying all industrial and




municipal waste, as well.

-------
                                                    1142




                    John ChasOS*



            "Well, David, I hope you will remember



that there are many groups like the Lake Erie Clean-



up Committee who are fighting to clean up the air and



water for the next generation, of which you are a part.



            "If the men of our generation cannot find



the time to eliminate pollution, then It will have to be



done by the mothers and their sons and daughters.  Let



us learn to be honest with one another.  We can then



once more hold our heads high.



            "God bless you, David, and guide you through



your life.



            "Your friend, sincerely,  John Chascsas"



            I also have a letter here to Mr. Lawrence



Bluebold, which I won't read.   I also have a letter to



the Honorable Governor George Romney, protesting his



Insistence on Industry moving up north, and I think that



Is our last frontier, and I think It  should be preserved,



and I am also going to Insert this with a few statistics



on it, so that you may have it.



            I would also like to impress upon you people



out there that sometimes if you look  through the Bible



you will find things that relate to some of our conditions



as they exist today.    I am not what you would call a

-------
                                                    1143





                     John Chasesa



a preacher.   I am not a real religious man.  I do go



to church, and I do try to live a good Christian life.



I get mad the same as anybody else.  I hope that you



will forgive me for taking up so much of your time.



            With that I think I will close and let



these gentlemen take it from there.



            Thank you.



            MR. STEIN:    Thank you, Mr. Chascsa.



Are there any comments or questions?



            Mr. Poston?



            MR. POSTON:   I might ask Mr. Chascsa whether



he has seen any changes in the rivers since 1962 at



the time you were at the other conference.



            MR. CHftSCSA:  Well, I might say this, that if



you had the time, or if you wish to take the time, I



have slides that I would like to show you that were



taken this year, since January, and you could form your



own ooncfcittsloBs.     I mean, last year I took some, and



the year before I took some on the Fourth of July at the



same location, and the water was—well, it was at least



as black as this, if not blacker, and it was so smelly



that it was sickening.  This is in the Lake Erie area.



            I also have samples that were taken Just

-------
                                                   1144




                John Chascsa



within the past two or three weeks, of water ranging



from Wyandotte down toward the Plum Creek area, and I



am sure that you will find that they resembled the water



that was presented in 1962 pretty much as it did at that



time.



            MR. STEIN: Anything more?



            MR. POSTON: Thank you.



            MR. STEIN:   How about Mr. Oeming?



            MR. OEMINGi   Mr. Chascsa, I assume that you



are familiar with the findings of the Federal study in



the Federal report?



            MR. CHASCSA;   You mean the  present report?



            MR. OEMING: The present report,  yes.



            MR. CHASCSA: I am familiar with some of it,



yes.



            MR. OEMING:  I think I made it a point to



see that you got a complete copy of it; that the Lake



Erie Clean-Up Committee got a complete copy.



            MR. CHASCSA:  If you did,  I don't recall it.



            MR. OEMING:    One went to your secretary.



            MR. CHASCSA:  She probably has one.



            MR. OEMING:  In any event, if you haven't



seen it,  I would suggest that you refer to the portion

-------
                                                     1145





                     John Chasesa



of the report which begins perhaps about page 300, or



somewhere about there, that discusses the Sterling



Park situation and the situation outside of Monroe in



Monroe County, and particularly to the north of



Sterling State Park Beach.



            I look at the roster of your committee and



I see that you nave some clubs here and members from



Detroit Beach, Woodland Beach, Stony;  Point Association,



all through this area; and I am wondering if you are



not now in a position to lend the influence and prestige



of your organization to support bond issues, to get out



and sell the need for sewage treatment—collection



and treatment in this area.



            MR. CHftSCSAi   May I answer you?



            MR. OEMINGt   I am asking the question, sir;



I would like an answer.



            MR. CHASCSA:  For the record, I would like



for you to know that in August, when the Monroe County



Fair is being held for a whole week, for the past three



years—and I think we have two people here from Monroe



County, who will substantiate my statement—we have



solicited signatures of people in the Monroe County



area, not Just visitors from any area, but from the

-------
                                                     1146




                   John  Chasesa



 Monroe  County area,  to  establish a  department  of  public



works to do Just  exactly what you are  talking about.



            We have  also made a  request for water, and



 at  one  time Mr.  Remus had agreed that he would be willing



 to  put  a 56-inch line all the way through to the  Ford



 Motor Company, if It were possible, to show them  that



 It  would be monetarily  feasible.



            Since then  I don't know what has happened.



 We  are  not in a  position to dictate to the  Board  of



 Supervisors.      We  do  crash their  meetings.   We do



 send in requests.   We  do ask them  for other considera-



 tions for the people in the area that you realize, I believe,



 as  well as I  do,  is  a depressed  area; and I hope  that



 you people do not feel  that we are  here to  castigate



 you, because  I know, as well as  you do, that you  are doing



 a job that is almost an impossible  Job, as  well as the



 United  States Public Health Service.



            However, people in the  past have done this;



 they have not taken  into consideration that when  a communi-



 ty  builds up  that certain provisions have to be made



 for sewage disposal.



            There Is a  big plant going up at this time



 in  Woodhaven,  and you are aware  of  that, I  am  quite sure.

-------
                                                        1147



                     John Chascsa



What provisions for industrial wastes have been made



there?  Now, we talk about our smaller areas.  These




are small beach areas, which are private concerns, and



they have to find some way and some means of financing




their plight other than the county, because they feel



the county won't give them any money, or the county says



that they cannot give them the money.



            So, until such time as we can persuade them



— and I assure you that we won't give up -- we shall



certainly be fighting to see that this department of



public works is created and that funds, somehow, somewhere,



will be made available to alleviate the situation as far



as sewers and water are concerned.



            MR. OEMINQ:  Well, I take it, then, Mr.



Chascsa, that you are willing to devote much of this



energy that you have been using to get these things



brought into focus here now, to getting the correction




under way?



            MR. CHASCSA:  I am at the present time a



member of the Monroe County Regional Planning Commission,



the Lake Erie Technical Study Commission.  I am also the



President of Estral Beach, the President of the Lake



Erie Clean-Up Committee, and if you have any more

-------
                                                      1148




                     John Chascsa




committees that I might squeeze in some place I shall




be happy to serve on them.



            MR. OEMING:  I guess Estral Beach will




have to find some money to clean it up?



            MR. CHASCSA:  I wish they could.  I have




written to your department and I have made requests for




applications, and even they have gone astray or gone



awry, or whatever happens to them; but you can rest



assured that I would like to see this taken care of.




            MR. OEMING:  Well, we don ft have any money




to give out.




            MR. CHASCSA:  I know you don't.



            MR. OEMING:  And this is a local responsi-




bility.



            MR. CHASCSA:  Well, it is a local responsi-




bility.  Now you talk -- I hope you don't takre offense at




this, but you remind me of our Governor when he made




the statement that all the communities should take care




of their own responsibilities.  As I cited in my report




here, if we could borrow that fifty thousand dollars




that this mayor wanted for a place in Washington so he



could be close to the sources of these funds, we could




do a terrific amount of good with fifty thousand dollars.

-------
                                                     1149
                John Chascaa

I served for $75 a year.   I would like to see how many

other people would exert that much energy.

            MR. OEMINQ:   I Just hope, Mr. Chascas, that

your Influence and prestige, which is felt considerably,

can be applied to getting the problem solved now

rather than about complaining about what isn't being

done.  Something can be done; it is in your hands.

            MR. CHASCSA:   lean assurejou of one thing,

that with  the cooperation of your agency and the Federal

Government we shall certainly do it.

            MR. OEMING:   You will have our cooperation.

            MR. CHASCSA:  If we can be assured of your

cooperation we will work on it harder than we have ever

worked on it.

            MR. OEMING:  Fine; that is what I want to hear.

            MR. STEIN: Well, Mr. Chascsa, let me tell you

something:   We do have money to give away.

            Let me ask you, if you could summarize this,

do you believe that the waters of Lake Erie around

Monroe are polluted?

            MR. CHASCSA:  Do I believe they are polluted?

            MR. STEIN:   Yes.

            MR. CHASCSA: Would you like for me to bring

the Jar in?

-------
                                                         1150




                     John Chascsa




            MR. STEIN:   No,  no.   Would you answer the




question?



            MR. CHASCSA:  I  mean, I would rather bring




it in here, because someone  may  not believe me.




            MR. STEIN:   No.   I would like your opinion.



            MR. CHASCSA:  My opinion is definitely they




are polluted.



            MR. STEIN:   All  right.   Thank you.




            MR. CHASCSA:  You will  see that on this




picture, if you pass this picture along here,  showing




these people.   This is  a recent  one, showing the people




cleaning up the beach there.




            MR. OEMING:  I guess I  would have  to ask you:



Do you believe that the waters of Stony Creek  and Sandy



Creek are polluted?



            MR. CHASCSA:  Yes, they are.




            MR. OEMING:  And  where  does that come from?




            MR. CHASCSA:  Some of it comes from some of




the septic tanks,  and some of it comes from farm run-



off.




            MR. OEMING:  Estral  Beach doesn't  have anything



to do with any of  these streams  or  waste disposal?

-------
                                                      1151




                     John Chascsa




            MR. CHASCSA:  Indirectly they might have.




            MR. OEMING:  Then you do not agree with the




Federal Report?




            MR. CHASCSA:  I agree with the Federal Report




with one exception and --




            MR. OEMING:  The exception is you don't want




Estral Beach to have to do anything?  (Laughter.)




            MR. CHASCSA:  No, no.  That is where you are




wrong.




            Now you make me think of another gentleman



who wrote to me and told me that he spent 300 million




dollars of the Federal funds to do something in Detroit,




and wanting to know what Estral Beach did.




            As I told you in my report, if we could borrow




enough for a postage stamp to write a letter to the




Federal Government, or to the proper authorities, we




would be doing good, and when you start picking on little




guys some of them don't just sit back and take it -- see?




I can assure you that you will get our cooperation.




            MR. OEMING:  Fine.




            MR. CHASCSA:  And we are going to be fighting




wholeheartedly.




            MR. STEIN:  With what part of the report




don't you agree?

-------
                                                     1152



                   John  Chascsa



             MR.  CHASCSA:     The  report  of  dumping too



 close  to  the port  of Mom-oe  or just  too close  to  the



 mouth  of  the Monroe River.    I believe—I  don't know Just




 what page it is  on.



             MR.  STEIN:  But identify  the idea.



             MR.  CHASCSA:  The idea was that the hoppers



 of these  barges  or boats  should  not  be  opened  too close



 to the present dumping  grounds and they should be moved



 farther out.



             MR.  STEIN:    Yesj what is your view?



             MR.  CHASCSA:  As  the  representative of the



 Army Corps of Engineers stated,  something  different



 should be done,  and I think  it should be contained



 behind a  wall of some kind lined with clay or  It  should



 be pumped inland where  it could  be put  to  good use.   It



 could  be  utilized  as a  fill  very easily.



             MR.  STEIN:    I have  no further questions.



             MR.  POSTON:   No  further  questions.



             MR.  STEIN:  Thank you very  much, Mr.



 Chascsa.




             MR.  CHASCSA :     You  are  welcome; and  thank you



for the opportunity.




             MR.  STEIN:  Thank you for your comprehensive



 statement.

-------
                                                       1153
                    John Chasesa
      (The  following papers were presented for the record.)
                  EXPERT OPINION:

              "The conference heard  the present  official
 Coast  Guard position on the question  of  licensing pleasure
 boat  operators.   The Coast Guard  does not feel  that
 operator's licensing,  at least  none of the  systems that
 have  been  proposed so far, would  serve any  useful pur-
 pose.   The age limit approach,  for  one,  is  not  viewed
 as meaningful because boating accident statistics do
 not point  to  age  as a determinative factor."
              ADMIRAL RICHMOND,  Head of the  U.S. Coast
 Guard,  Ret. 1961.  :
              "That is why I appeared  to  say that we would
 be reluctant  yesterday to jump  wholeheartedly on the
 idea  of licensing individual operators.  It was not
 necessarily a reluctance because  of administration, but
 I am not surefchat.lt would really add too much  to the
 overall safety program,,
              "It  certainly would  make everybody there
 show a  fair degree of  competence  before  they were able
 to use  a power-driven  boat, but it  still does not
 guarantee  safety,  and  I  think it  could,  unless  approached
very prudently, be unduly restrictive to the boating out

-------
                   John Chasesa




there, which I do not think any of us want to see."




             ADMIRAL E. J.  HOLLAND, Head of the U.S.




Coast Guard, Reg.



             "You and I know that boating is a relatively




safe sport, but we must accept the fact that everyone does




not agree with that opinion.  According to your industry




figures, about 40 million go boating out of a population




of 180 million.  That means the majority of voters are




not boaters."








               SOUTHEASTERN STATES




             OPPOSE OPERATOR LICENSES








             The Southeastern Assn. of State Boating




Law Administrators has gone on record against operator




licenses at this time.  A resolution declaring that




"the licensing of motorboat operators be not recommended




was adopted unanimously at a meeting of the regional




group in Clearwater, Florida.  In support of its stand,



the association stated that "boating accident




statistics . . . fail to show that involvement in




accidents is, in fact, related to factors which any




system of licensing would  substantially reduce or  eliminate,

-------
                                                       1155



                   John Chasesa




and that  "problems of administration and enforcement of




any such  licensing system would outweigh benefits that




might accrue."








                    WASHINGTON




                      REPORT




               By William T. Stone








             Licensing Bill Opposed by Federal Agencies




             Two Federal agencies — the Treasury and




Interior  Departments -- have told Rep. Herbert C. Bonner,




Chairman  of the House Merchant Marine and Fisheries




Committee, that they are opposed to compulsory licensing




of boat operators at this time, as proposed in the




Chamberlain bill (H.R. 1055).




             The Treasury Department, which sometimes




speaks for the U.S. Coast Guard on legislative issues




before Congress, had this to say in its letter to Mr0




Bonner:



             "While the Department believes that a federal



program of licensing motorboat operators would have a




definite  deterrent effect on the negligent and careless




operation of motorboats, we believe that the govern-




ment should not at this time embark upon a compulsory

-------
                                                        1156



                    John Chasesa




 licensing program.   Rather,  further emphasis  on  boating




 safety education and more  extensive enforcement  of  existing




 boating safety laws would  appear  to be  more fruitful.




 Such a program would be a  wiser utilization of federal




 government funds than the  proposed  licensing  program, the




 costs of which would be quite high.   It is estimated that




 with over six million potential licensees, an additional




 six hundred personnel would  be  required by the Coast




 Guard to implement  the program  proposed by H.R.  1055."




              The Treasury  rasied  no objection to licensing




 by the states, noting that the  Federal  Boating Act  of 1958




 contains authority  for licensing  of motor boat operators



 under state laws.   "We would have no objection," the




 Treasury said, "to  their utilization of this  authority*




 .We would hope that  if they do  so, some  degree of uniformity




 and  ^reciprocity could be  attained  among the  various states."




              Fishing vessels affected by licensing  bill




              The Interior  Department, which is concerned




 with sport-fishing  and commercial fisheries,  stated flatly:




 "We recommend against the  enactment of  this legislation."



 Noting that H.R.  1055 would  be  applicable to  all commercial



 fishing vessels that are undocumented and propelled by




 machinery  of more than  10  hp, Secretary of the Interior




Stewart L. Udall said:

-------
                                                      1157



                   John Chasesa




              "There are approximately 55>000 small boats




now being utilized in commercial fishery which would be




adversely affected by this legislation.  We do not have




sufficient information concerning commercial fishing




activities throughout the country to know that the




licensing system proposed would not contribute materially




to the safety of operation 01 commercial fishing craft.




There is, to  our knowledge, no evidence that lack of




physical capacity, maturity, or knowledge of rules of




the road on the part of operators of commercial fishing




craft have constituted a threat to safety on navigable




waters.  The  imposition of such a licensing system on the




commercial fishing industry would therefore be an un-




necessary burden without hope of improving the safety




factor in the industry. . . . Moreover, since there is




often more than one operator for each boat, the number




of individuals concerned and requiring licensing would




be materially greater than the number of boats would




indicate."








              We are losing American men north of Malay




and our proud Navy is on the prowl in Asian waters.




              This is Just another step in our National




Policy of sympathy for the "underdog."1.

-------
                                                       1158
                   John Ghascsa
             We might well recognize that we call it
"Sportsmanship" to "feel sorry" for the losing team.
It is a national disgrace, so well illustrated by our
traditional Life Magazine that it's "Good Luck to
'Sovereign.'"


                   GOOD LUCK
                 TO 'SOVEREIGN'
             Millions of Americans — many with no more
experience of yachting than owning a dinghy on a warm
water lake -- this week find themselves caught up once
again in the vicarious enjoyment of the America's Cup
races.  The spectacle of rich men spending hundreds of-
thousands of dollars and working like stevedores to bring
a graceful sailing vessel to perfection has a sort of
neverland charm, a little like reading about royalty at
play.  And the long struggle over the  .ugly silver pitcher
has been filled with drama ever since the upstart schooner
America, sailing against 14 British competitors, first
captured it in 1851.
             In the intervening century the British, in
their zeal to win it back, and the Americans, in their
zeal to defend it, have often belied the old aphorism

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                                                        1159
                    John  Chasesa
 that  "a  gentleman  can  do business with anyone, but he can
 only  go  yachting with  another  gentleman."  The early history
 of the races  is filled with  angry protests and claims of
 foul.  The  defending club has  the right to apply  its own
 set of rules  and,  taking advantage  of this, in the old
 days, the New York Yacht Club  did some blatant rule-
 jigger ing to  favor its boat.
              Perhaps this kind of nonsense was understand-
 able  when twisting the lion's  tail  was still in fashion.
 Certainly the huge amounts of  money involved -- it has been
 estimated gleefully that the British have spent more money
 trying to get the Cup back than they spent to repel the
 Spanish  Armada --  have lent  an air  of desperation to the
 competition.,
              Modern races are  run under far more equitable
 rules, but  one unhappy by-product of the past has remained:
 the defense of the Cup,  like the Olympics, has become all
 mixed up with national prestige.  With each successful de-
 fense the thought  of an  eventual loss seems to become
 more horrendous.   There  is a saying that if the Cup is
 ever lost it  will  be replaced  in the Club Trophy Room with
 the losing  skipper's head.  Sailboat racing, from junior
 regattas to Cup defenders, is  already competitive enough
without  chauvinism.

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                                                       1160



                   John Chasesa




             This year, after a grueling summer of elimin-




 ation trials, the New York Yacht Club has come up with




 another  superb defender in Constellation.  In fact, an all-




 out effort has been made by both sides, and no one would




 want it  any other way.  At the same time, we suspect that




 a great  many Americans are getting heartily bored with the




 113-year U.S. monopoly over this event.  We're sure the




 British  are equally tired of their traditional role of




 gallant  losers.  For our part,  we think it would be a




 good thing for the sport, and good thing for sportsmanship,




 if Britain's Sovereign sailed away with the Gup.








             Only recently have reliable statistics for




 Ohio regarding casualties on the water been developed.




             Life is so precious in America!   But un-




 fortunately our National Safety policy is based on fear




 and penalty.  Fear and penalty is almost punitive in its




 concept.  It works on Russian boys and German boys, many




 real American boys stick out their tongues at the U. S.




 Coast Guard.  Why should we not try American methods before



 we cut off our youth from the man-building features of our



 last Frontier?




             Incentives (or bonuses) work with Americans!




Why shouldn't they be allowed to perfect tfemselves in




small boat handling and get citations from the U. S. Coast

-------
                   John Chascsa




Guard, the Coast Guard auxiliary members and members of




U. S. Power Squadrons whenever anyone does anything right




(in Bristol fashion)on the water.  Hobbies lead to per-




fection.




             With the many millions of trips on the water




in 1961, the total losses in connection with small boats




were only 15.  Loss of life in Farm ponds was 24.  Loss




of lives of those who work around the water -- longshore-




men, construction workers and crewmen -- was 40 for the




year.  Why not license workmen first?




             Fifty more years of aspiring to be the under-




dog and we will be the underdog.  You never overshoot




this mark]




             Nobody can be greater than he aspires to be!




             Let me tell you about an almost insignificant




detail of the American Cup Race.  Naturally, a solid steel




rod can be just as strong as twisted wire stays for the




mast.  Besides, rod rigging has less windage than twisted




wire rigging of equal strength.



             Steel wire and steel rod has to be heat




treated to develop highest strength.  Ordinarily, heat




treated furnaces are horizontal!




             Rod, for logical reasons, has to be heat




treated in a vertical furnace.  The vertical furnace in

-------
                                                      1162
                   John Chasesa
Baltimore is twice as tall as the highest vertical furnace
in England; hence, the challenger carried twice as many
joints in its rigging than the defender.
             The sum total of all the unidentified
technologies, plus the trials of competition through
which the defender is selected, makes the defender unbeat-
able until we become' a second-rate power by our so-called
noble sympathies for the underdog, and withholding
frontier experiences from our children.
             There is another, quicker way to weaken our
nation, and that is to remove from ready access the last
frontier, namely, the waters of our state and our nation,

         AMERICAN SQNDERKLASSE RACERS WIN

             In the third series of races between American
and German Sonderklasse yachtsmen off Marblehead the
first week in September, both first and second honors fell
to Americans.  The Taft Cup for the first boat winning
three races went to the Joyette owned by W. H. Child, of
Brooklyn, and the Draper Cup, for the boat' winning most
points in the first four races, went to the Ellen, owned
by C. P. Curtis, of Boston.  A further condition was that
the same boat could not carry away both Taft and Draper prizes,

-------
                                                      1163
                   John Ghascsa

             Many forces are at work on this: (1) fish
nets prevent many cautious people from using the waterways
after dark; (2) some authorities would like to have advance
notice of this (such as yacht racing) for alleged safety
reasons -- a race should call for a committee boat, there
to render first aid; (3) City generated pollution is be-
coming a deterrent to many others.
             And now comes our own folks who live inland,
worrying about our safety, who propose to license oper-
ators on the water.
             Yes, we are proud of our aggressiveness in
the war in the Pacific, because many of our key men had
small boat experience in their youth I
             In 1902 Kaiser Wilhelm said "We cannot bring
England to her knees until we (Germany) get familiar with
the water."  Then he proceeded to promote yachting in
Germany embracing the Sender Class, a type of racing
sailboat later adopted in Massachusetts Bay and all over
Europe.
             His message had not yet hit home forty years
later when the old yachtsmen of England removed 300,000
armed men from the beach at DunkirkI
             You know, until the impact of licensing has

-------
                                                      1164




                   John Chascsa




had its effect, our "Yanks" would cross the English




Channel in a hop, skip and a jump]




             Prepared at the writer's expense from




Pension Funds and Social Security




            as a compliment to ....




our clear minded legislators who can see through the




haze the clear fact that in view of the relatively few




casualties regarding the use of small boats, we should




not take away the "HERITAGE OP AMERICA," namely, THE




FREEDOM OF THE SEAS^  ----




           including rivers, ponds and lakes!








                 A.  F.  Wakefield




                 Vermilion,  Ohio

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                                                        1165



                   John Chasesa








                   EXHIBIT "F"
Are you convinced that our water-contamination problem is




being solved?  It's growing worse!  Do you realize that




filth may be running out of your own faucets?  Here are




some grim facts	








                BY GEORGE LAYCOGK








             ONE ultimate terror that even the Nazis dared




not release in World War II was bacteriological warfare.




They knew it would bring immediate retailiation and soon




rage all over the world in a Black Plague of unimaginable




horrors, for its vehicle would be the most innocent of all




substances -- clear, fresh drinking water.  But unlike our




most barbarous enemies, we have for half a century or more




been exercising no such forbearance.  Cherishing our




friends, our neighbors, and our communities, we have




poisoned their drinking water and our own -- slowly, in-



sidiously, and, of course, unintentionally.  And,God save




the mark, we are still doing it.  Most Americans don't take




pollution very seriously.  There have been alarms and




warnings, but we have been lulled into a dangerous com-

-------
                                                        1166
                   John Chasesa
placency by the optimistic chirpings of certain public
officials and scientists who are as reluctant as we are
to face the truth squarely.  One can imagine their proto-
types in the great Chicago fire saying, "Come on, relax --
things are not as bad as they were.  We have brought the
fires in half a dozen houses under control."
             Today we hear cheerful reports of how water
pollution is being licked; that we are well on the way
to a new day.  This is pleasant, encouraging, relaxing,
and untrue.
             This is the truth: Pollution is deadlier than
you think.  The peril is closer to you than you think.
And the time to repel it is growing pitifully short.
             This pollution problem is not merely a matter
of disappearing fish or of poisoned wildlife.  It involves
you, me, everybody -- our health,  our survival.
             All this is only too well known to many bio-
logists, men frustrated by the unbelieveable apathy of the
American people.  I recently visited perhaps the greatest
of these water-pollution scientists, an angry man named
Dr. Clarence M. Tarzwell.  He should need no introduction,
but for the record he is chief of the Aquatic Biology
Section, Basic and Applied Sciences Branch, U. S. Public
Health  Service.  A biologist  of worldwide  fame,  he was

-------
                                                       1167
                   John Chasesa
recently awarded a most coveted decoration, the Aldo
Leopold Memorial Award Medal for 1963.
             You may, however, need an introduction to
such horrors as sludge worms and rat-tailed maggots.
Revolting names -- but not as revolting as the creatures
that teem, in the water that you and your family may soon
be drinking.
             In Dr. Tarzwell you find no high-domed
scientist, aloof and disdainful of man, working in a
well-ordered laboratory sheltered from the turmoil of
ordinary life.  Tarzwell's consuming interest is the
welfare of his fellow man.  He speaks directly and to
the point, disdaining the equivocations, the cheerful
nonsense, of so many highly placed men who prefer the
opium of optimism to the sweaty, often-discouraging
battle to end one of America's greatest menaces.
             Clarence Tarzwell is angry because the nation
seems unwilling to come to grips with a national shame, a
vast cesspool of dirty water that is piped into the homes
of so many Americans.
             "Oh, we're polite and civilized," he says.
"We wouldn't think of throwing our garbage, into a neigh-
bor's backyard.  That would be socially unacceptable.  But
who Is to know -- even we  -- that we are running our

-------
                                                     1168
                   John Chasesa
sewage into his drinking water?"
             As Dr. Tarzwell talks about our apathy his
temper grows warm, his sentences come fast, his voice
rises, and his hand pounds the table.  "Water Is life-
giving and life-sustaining," he says, "yet we have taken
it for granted, we have wasted it, and we have used it
to receive our wastes."
             He knows that this is now a problem for all
America, though he started fighting pollution more than
thirty years ago in some of Michigan's finest trout streams.
Logging operations had fed silt into the streams.  The
Michigan Conservation Department hired Tarzwell, fresh out
of college, to work out a solution.
             Among other things, Ta^zwell studied the move-
ment of'the water in the streams where trout had dwindled,
and the matter it carried along with it.  He saw that sand
had covered the gravel beds where trout had once spawned,
and he decided that this sediment could be washed away by
water just as water had put it there.  To accomplish this,
 : ; devised the first trout-stream improvement structures,
the types of deflectors and dams still being used.  His con-
struction crews were ex-lumberjacks, and the youthful
biologist learned how to use a double-bitted ax and to
swing a sledge.

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                                                      1169



                   John Chasesa




             "We didn't have waders," he recalls, "and




the water was usually about 52 degrees."  He often worked




in the stream from morning until night, but he was re-




warded; his structures did clean off some of the gravel




beds and the trout populations began to show an increase.




This attracted the attention of trout fishermen every-




where, and Tarzwell was soon rehabilitating private




streams in many parts of Michigan.




             Later he supervised all trout-stream improve-




ment.

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                                                       1170



                   John Chasesa








             This was the primary reason for choosing




the Lockport forebay within the Sanitary District as




the test location.  This area is described in a subse-




quent section.




             It is believed that the method of dimensional




analysis could lend assistance to future studies insofar




as comparison between systems would then be possible.




It would certainly be a necessary approach wherever




model studies are undertaken,.

-------
                                                       1171




                   John Chasesa








                 A DETERMINATION








             Science, left to its own development, as




it is in government, suffers from the lack of initiative




contributed to it normally by industrial connections.




Industrial management which devoted itself to the answer




of research for the grandchildren of stockholders would




be made away with, because the problem is to help and aid




the taxpayer or stockholder now living.




             Biologists say the "fish kills" in Lake




Erie most often result in the lack of oxygen in the




water.  Let's put some in itiJ




             Somehow, a "crash" program sounds reckless,




but nothing is more shamefully wreck-causing than the




continued measurements and surveys of a situation, many




facts of which are well known.




             Lake Erie has an area of five million acres.




If the five million acres were land and no more productive




than Lake Erie, this land-minded nation of ours would



have dams all over Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin to




provide irrigation for this area.




             Dr. Langlois, the senior biologist of the




Great Lakes, in his letter of April 30  (Exhibit A),  is

-------
                                                       1172
                   John Chasesa
 always  ready with  an  idea.  Let us  go to  the  third idea
 in his  letter from -which  I quote.   He refers  to a
 mechanical  areator:
             "It could -work out of  Toledo in  Maumee
 Bay and along the  south shore to Locust Point,  and it
 could be used out  of  Monroe on  the  Raisin River,   Might
 even toe used where the Detroit  River discharges into Lake
 Erie with the total burden with sewage from Detroit and
 on each of  the Lake Erie  Islands."
             While he admits he is  not too sure of the
 results,  I  am sure he has overlooked the  Research  Paper
 No.  1 given at the Water  Pollution  Control Federation in
 Seattle last year, which measures dissolved oxygen production
 of mechanical areation in the Chicago Drainage  Canal
 run-off.  (Exhibit  B)
             Besides  that, he has the experience of the
 Springfield Outdoor Club reported by Clark Patten.
 (Exhibit  C).
             The putrefaction of sewage of Detroit, Monroe
 and Toledo  takes oxygen out of  the  Lake.  Let's replace
 it then and there 11
             Let our  State Agencies participate in
 Federal grants and put diesel-driven aerators on the
twenty-two  islands in the Lake.  Since Lake Erie is

-------
                                                        1173
                   John Chasesa
international in character, only a few less oversize plows
to Persia would pay for our own improvement program.
             We are living in a technological and
scientific world, the effects of which we feel spreads
the process of polluting of our water supplies.  By in-
troducing specific poison in the Mississippi and St.
Louis, traces of the same impurities can be found at
New Orleans, in measured time afterwards.
             Such a phenomenon is foreign to the Great
Lakes Basin, since in the Mississippi a mass of poison
water goes down the river basin like a train of cars!
If such industrial pollution reaches Lake Erie, the
dilution meeting with a mass of water represented by
five million acres, with the churning affect of wave
action and dispersion by natural currents, brings about
dilution impossible to measure or even conceive.
             When pollution is mentioned, some industrial-
ists shake in their bones, without realizing the dilution
with any one of the Great Lakes overcomes many local
complaints, except when the outflow of industry takes
oxygen out of the water when added to the silt washed
into the lake from the baring soil of the winter season —
especially pronounced in the growing of corn.
             The  study  of  this  lake  problem is known as

-------
                   John Chasesa




"ecology."  While many members of the Lake Erie Resource




and Recreation Council are merely laymen,•some of our




numbers have served on boards of trustees  for engineering




and scientific research programs of considerable eminence.




             We could do the same for Lake Erie when our




land-minded officers are ready to attack the  problem.

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                                                       1175
                    John  Chasesa
                            li « ii
                   EXHIBIT  "A


            THE  OHIO  STATE  UNIVERSITY
                 COLUMBUS 10, OHIO
                              April 30, 1964
Mr. A. F. Wakefield
Wakefield Lighting Division
Wakefield Corporation
P. 0. Box 195
Vermilion, Ohio
Dear Mr. Wakefield:
             Your courtesy  in sending a copy of Yeoman's
"Picture Report  on World's  First Attempt to aerate a
Flowing River",  is sincerely appreciated.  I neve seen
only news articles about the experiment, so am glad to
have this close-up of the machine.
             As  you know, I am much concerned about the prob-
lem of summer stratification and stagnation of the lower
waters of the critical western end of Lake Erie, and have
been urging action by sanitary engineers.  I have stated
my opinion that  first efforts should be directed towards
helping the upstream cities develop effective economic
methods of complete treatment of all used water before

-------
                                                      1176




                   John Chascsa




returning it to the tributary rivers or directly to the




western end of the lake.  Second efforts, if the flow




of enriching materials is continued, should be aimed at




keeping the effects of such pollution at the western end




and not let it spoil the rest of the lake.



             These second efforts,  following standard




methods of sewage treatment, would consist of methods




for helping the water of the western end digest the




materials added to it, and retarding outflow eastwards un-




til digestion has taken place,  I have suggested that a




levee,, supporting a cross-the-lake  highway, be built from




Catawba Point across the series of  Bass Islands to Pelee




Island, and that a bridge be constructed over the Pelee




Passage,  I hasre suggested also that experiments at




aeration be tried in the zone used  by the Erie Ordnance




depot, using windmills on rafts with air-pumps and per-




forated plastic hose on bottom.  The transference of




sludge from shoals out from the south shore onto land,




back of the present sand bars, would make valuable farm




land which would be worth saving by sea walls and



jetties.




             The possible use of a Yeoman's Floating




Aerator would be worth considering.  It could work out




of Toledo in Maumee Bay and along the south shore to

-------
                                                        1177
                   John Chascsa
Locust Point, and it could be used out of Monroe on the
Raisin River.  It might even be used where the Detroit
River discharges into Lake Erie,, but. I doubt if it could
be used where the Detroit River discharges into Lake Erie,
but I doubt if it could be used in the open lake, ex-
cepting possibly within easy access of the good harbor
at Put-in-Bay.  I have no way of Judging whether or not
the value received from such usage would make the cost
of such operations a good investment, but the restoration
of Lake Erie to healthy condition is an objective worth
this kind of a gamble.
             You may quote this letter in its entirety
only, but you have my permission to use it en toto any-
way you may wish.
             With kindest regards.
                         Yours sincerely,
                         THOMAS H. LANGLOIS
                         Professor
THL/skd
p.s.  Why not organize the "Friends of Lake Erie"?

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                                                          1178




                   John Chasesa








                   EXHIBIT "C"








               DIVISION OF WILDLIFE








             XENIA — After experiencing a heavy




winter-kill of fish in its lake, a year ago, an put-




door club in the Springfield area has done something




about it, according to William Zarbock, fisheries




biologist with the Ohio Division of Wildlife.




             The Van Dyke Club, with grounds and head-




quarters east of Springfield, installed a 3/^- horse-




power _electric motor, a two-stage compressor and 1,000




feet of weighted hose to keep an area in the lake free




of ice.  Air bubbles emanating from the hose circulates




the water from the lake bottom and keeps a large section




of the 11-acre impoundment open.




                      (more)
                       -11-
             Clark Patton, Springfield, member of the



fish committee, said the results had been quite favor-




able this winter.  During the coldest weather, when ice

-------
                                                        1179




                   John Chasesa




on most of the lake was 10 inches thick, an open area




was maintained about 500 feet long and 250 feet wide.




             "After it rained and the ice began thawing,




one whole end of the lake opened up," said Patton.  "While




other ponds and small lakes were still covered with rotten




ice, we had ducks swimming around on our lake.  The air




bubble rig not only helped the fish, but aided migrating




ducks this first year it was in use."

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                                                      1180




                   John Chascsa








                   EXHIBIT "E"
             Lunch was served at the Vermilion. Yacht Club,




after which Ray Full, acting as temporary chairman., read




a letter from. Mr., Ros.s Leffler, Assistant Secretary of




the Interior,. U..S. Fish and Wildlife Division., in which he




stated that sport fishermen., commercial fishermen., and




boating enthusiasts all have a different interest in Lake




Erie,, and. commended, the group for the cooperative effort




being, made, through meetings such as this, in creating a




better understanding of each other's problems.




             Mr. Olds introduced the members of his staff




and explained their duties.  He stated that, through the




courtesy of the Ohio State- University, Dr. Thomas Langlois




now serves the division in an advisory capacity.




             Mr. Carbine then introduced the members of




the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries and stated that the




bureau became active in Lake Erie because it had been asked




to do so.  He pointed out that the Lake Erie Fish Manage-



ment Committee, made up of representatives from all states




bordering on Lake Erie and the Province of Ontario, Canada,




was formed to gain more knowledge of fish life and to pool




all of the knowledge obtained by the various states and

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                   John Chasesa




Canada.  Mr. Carbine pointed out that the Bureau of




Commercial Fisheries is flexible and can go into inter-




national waters and the waters of surrounding states.




This program has been under way about two years and while




a great deal of valuable information has been obtained




through the combined efforts of the various .groups .much




remains to be learned.  He stated that they .still are




unable to explain the tremendous fluctuations in the




various species.




             During the course of informal discus.sions




it was learned that large areas in Lake Erie were found




to have low oxygen content, which is harmful to fish




life.  Mr. Berry asked what effect this .has on fish and




Dr. Moffett explained that fish must breathe the same as




humans.  He stated that fish have no intelligence and




for that reason do not know when to leave an area where




the oxygen content is too low for their survival.  As ,a




result many die.  He further stated that the .may fly has




been practically wiped out because of low oxygen 'Content




in the lake,,



             Mr. Murdock asked the reason for this low




oxygen condition.  It was explained that when the lake




is calm for extended periods the biological demand is




very high and oxygen is used up without being replenished.

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                                                      1182



                   John Chasesa




Bacterial break-down of dead fish also consumes oxygen.




             Selden said that Lake Erie Walleyes hatched




in the spring of 1959 now measure 8.1 to 12.2 inches, the




average being 10.25.  Ke said that he personally had




measured 468 of 975 walleyes observed in 19 nettings




by commercial fishermen on October 23, off South Bass




Island.  Van Meter reported on 11 net liftings off Kelleys




Island, the same date when 399 measured from 8.2 to 11.9




inches.  All fish were returned to the lake.  The walleyes




won't influence commercial fishing until next fall when the




legal length limit of 14 inches probably will be reached,




Van Meter said.  Sport fishing anglers, however, will get




their chances during the summer, before many reach the




l4-inch size.

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                                                      1183



                   John Chasesa








            THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY




               RESEARCH FOUNDATION




                         February 15, 1963




Mr. Al Wakefield




Wakefield Lighting Division




Wakefield Corporation




Vermilion, Ohio




Dear Mr. Wakefield:




             This is in reference to your note addressed




to me and the attachment concerning pollution of Lake




Erie.




             I am glad to have this brought to my




attention, although your purpose is not entirely clear




to me.  I can say in general, however, that we would all




agree the problem of water pollution is an important one.




We have dealt with water supply, use and treatment from




time to time, in one way or another, in our little




publication SCIENCE AND APPLIANCE, and no doubt will




have occasion to do so in the future.  I might add that



I am personally a consultant to the Public Health Service




in its waste water treatment program, and by that means,




too, am kept fairly well up to date with problems and




activities in this field.

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                   John  Ghascsa









                         Sincerely yours.,




                         ORAM G.  WOOLPERT, M.D.




                         EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR





OCW-fh

-------
                                                        1185
                   John Chasesa
           LAKE ERIE CLEANUP COMMITTEE

                NEWPORT,, MICHIGAN

                              May 21, 1962

Mr. Lawrence Gubow

U.S. Attorney for the

E. District of Michigan

Federal Bldg.

Detroit, Michigan

Dear Sir :-

             On April 12, 1962, a resolution was made and

supported to file a formal complaint with the U.S.

District Attorney, against the Army Corps of Engineers,

for permitting the pollution of the Detroit river and

for deliberately spreading pollution in Lake Erie, by

dumping the dredged sludge into the waters of Lake Erie

off Pointe Mouille, thereby creating a nuisance and health

hazard in this area.

             It is a known fact that the Corps of En-

gineers is aware of the contamination present in this

waste.  And it is also a known fact that the Joint

Waterways Commission, Water Resources Commission, Con-

servation Department, the County, State, and Federal

Health Departments, as well as the similar agencies of

-------
                                                        1186




                   John Chasesa




the State of Ohio, could and should have stopped this




action when it first came to light several years ago.




             This is a deliberate act of indifference on




the part of the agencies mentioned and especially the Army




Corps of Engineers who are delegated the task of policing




any and all public streams and lakes as described in




Federal Laws, (Title 33, section 4o6-407, page 5833) and




further on page 5835 of Title 33, section 411), explains




the penalty for wrongdoers, as well as the duty of the




U.S. Attorney and other Federal officers.




             The remarks submitted by Colonel Pfeil,




to the Conference.held in Detroit in March were very




enlightening and prove that the danger of a serious




situation exists in this area and that it is more or less




the responsibility of the U.S. Congress and of the States




of Michigan and Ohio to see that the protective laws be




strictly adhered to by all concerned and that your office




vigorously prosecute any and all offenders.




             The State of Ohio as mentioned in this com-




plaint is guilty of the same action by creating a health




hazard and nuisance  (off the shores of the Community of




North Shores on Lake Erie south of the city of Monroe,)




through the dredging by the Corps of Engineers, of the




Maumee river in Toledo, Ohio.

-------
                                                       1187



                   John Chasesa




             No dumping should be permitted, into one




of the finest bodies of water that the good Lord created




for the pleasure of man, at any time or under any cir-




cumstances.




             The action requested by this group is not




singular as witnessed by the many complaints filed with




the U.S. Health Department on many occasions in the past




twenty years and prior to the Conference in Detroit.




             Hoping it will not be necessary to contact




you on this matter in the future.




             To a successful and mutually beneficial




conclusion of our problem.




                         Respectfully,




                         John Chascsa, Chairman




Copies sent to:




Secretary of U.S. Army




U.S. Army Corps of Engineers




U.S. Department of Health, Education,-and. Welfare




U.S. Supreme Court Justice Douglas




U.S. Senator Hart



U.S. Senator McNamara



U.S. Congressman Header




International Joint Waterways Comm.




Mich. Water Resources Commission

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                   John Chasesa




Mich. Conservation Dep't.




Governor John Swainson




State Senator Porter




State Representatives:




     William C. Sterling




     William Copeland




     Albert Petri




     William H. Thorn




Michigan State Health Dep't.




Monroe County Health Dep't.




Monroe, Wayne, Washtenau, County Bd. of Supv.




All Lake Associations, and Downriver Communities,




Paul Findlay, Toledo, Ohio




Ohio State Congress

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                                                      1189



                   John  Chasesa








           LAKE ERIE CLEANUP COMMITTEE




            NEWPORT, MICHIGAN  - 48l66




                               October 11, 1963




Honorable George Romney




Governor of the State




of Michigan




Lansing, Michigan




Dear.Governor:




              In reply to your  letter of October 4, per-




mit me to thank and commend you for the interest and




concern shown in the problem'of pollution facing the




people of the Detroit and Lake Erie Area.




              In your letter, you stated that all angles




have been surveyed and analysed as to health problems,




contamination hazards, and possibly a typhoid epidemic




or worse for the City of Wyandotte, Great Lakes Steel,




Hannah Furnace, Ford Motor Company, Detroit Edison Company




at Conners Creek, DECo Delray Plant, River Rouge Plant,




Trenton Plant, City of Wyandotte Water Plant, Riverview,



McLouth Steel at Trenton and Gibralter, City of -Trenton,




City of Gibralter, Rockwood (East), Pointe Mouille'e




(Game Reserve), Estral Beach, Stoney Pointe, Bay Crest,




Brest Bay Area, Sterling State Park, the City of Monroe

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                                                      1190




                     John Chascsa



water intake, Consolidated Paper Company, Ford Motor



Company of Monroe, and River Raisin Paper and Union Bag



Company of Monroe plus all the other municipalities such



as Luna Pier, Erie City of Toledo and many other



communities along Lake Erie.  On the Canadian side: the



City of Windsor, Sandwich, LaSalle, Leamington, Amherstberg,




plus many others.  As you no doubt realize by now, many



lives on both sides of the international waters may be



affected and, as I have mentioned, disease is not a dis-



criminator and may strike any of us.  Is this what may



come of giving the City of Detroit permission ^to dump



raw sewage into the waters that we use for so many normal



and every-day functions?  Will this be something we can



look forward to in another forty years?  When have the



other valves in question been repaired?  In the appeal to



the State Health Department and Water Resources Commission,



it was pointed out that many millions of dollars worth of



damage could be expected if this permission were not




granted and the possibilities of health hazards would be



enlarged, as well as the ultimate consent to dump or re-



develop, replan, and undo all the millions of dollars




worth in interceptor sewers — not to disposal plants,



but to the Detroit River.




            Why does  the  City of Detroit  have  to  take on

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                                                       1191





                   John Chascsa




more sewers from Dearborn, Macomb County, and Oakland




County, and have to ask permission to dump raw sewage in-




to a public Detroit River Stream?  In "Power and Fluids"




publication (winter of 1955) a plan of the Detroit sewer




system appeared and it shows many pumping stations but




only one disposal plant.  Wouldn't it be more prudent




to install treatment plants instead of interceptor




sewers and pumping stations?




             Do we hawe to read in the Detroit News and




other publications (such as:  the Monroe News, Toledo




Blade, and Cleveland Plain Dealer) that "Detroit Asks




Permission to Pollute Detroit River", July 3, 1963; on




August 23, 1963 "Pontiac Water Center Hailed as Link to




Detroit"; August 24, 1963 "City of Detroit Offers Sewer




Deals to Suburbs"; Why?  You can get the answer at the end




of the July 24, 1963 press article, "Pollution of Clinton




(which empties into the Lake St. Glair) is an Added Threat




to Detroit's Water Supply".  Isn't that something to get




excited over?  After you have read the rest of the material




I am enclosing, ask yourself if we are unreasonable in



wondering why you may permit such action when it takes




away all the incentive for communities such as ours to




try to build and expand,,




             We used to drink Lake Erie water without

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                                                       1192



                   John Chasesa




filtering or processing, but now, it is almost out of the




question because of the cost; why?  Again, I refer to the




news clippings and the testimony given at the 1962 confer-




ence held at Detroit by the U. S. Public Health Services.




I ask, are we to be known as a State that is a "Water




Wonderland" or a "Water Blunderland"?




             On August 30, 1963 an article appeared in




the Detroit News, "State Upset by U. S. Gall for River




Pollution Talks"; as you can see, we could go on and on.




This is why I feel it would be of the utmost benefit to




all concerned if you would call a special meeting for




those that I have mentioned (and any others who may be




interested) within the next two weeks.  I hope the




meeting can be held in Monroe, or where the Lake Erie




Cleanup Committee started, (Estral Beach or Newport).




             There are many other ways this action can be




averted in the future.  Every means should be explored to




protect the health of all the Michigan Citizens not just




those of Detroit.




             Hoping to have a favorable reply in the very



near future, I remain




                         Sincerely,




                         John Chascsa, President




                         Lake Erie Cleanup Committee

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                                                       1193




                   John Chasesa








                STATE OF MICHIGAN




              OFFICE OF THE GOVERNOR




                     LANSING




                         April 13, 1965




Mr. John Chascsa, President




Lake Erie Cleanup Committee




Box 156




Newport, Michigan




Dear Mr. Chasesa:




             This will acknowledge your letter of




April 5, 19^5>relative to the forthcoming meeting at




Cleveland on water pollution in Lake Erie.




             While I am intensely interested in the




well-being of Lake Erie and plan to attend or be repre-




sented at the meeting, I should point out that the




arrangement has been solely by Governor Rhodes and my




position will be that of an invited conferee.




             As to attendance by Canadian representatives,




I understand that Governor Rhodes has invited the Inter-




national Joint Commission, which will bring in Canadian



interests and also indicates that he has quite possibly




asked other Canadian authorities also.




             I am looking forward to this conference with

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                                                       1194



                   John Chasesa




much interest and am confident that it will contribute




to the advancement of our mutual interests in this great




internatioal water resource.




                         Sincerely,




                         GEORGE ROMNEY

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                                                       1195
                    John  Chascsa
                    POLLUTION

                EVERYBODY'S FIGHT

                By JOHN  CLARK HUNT



              One would think that the Pacific Northwest,

 a  region blessed with shining streams, rivers and lakes,

 would have  clean, pure water for every purpose.  True,

 the high country snowbanks are  still clean and pure.

 Rain falls  on millions of acres of national forests and

 trickles down to feed these streams and rivers.  This

 water is clear  and clean.  But what happens to it after

 it leaves the high beauty of the Rockies and the Cascades

 and the shining green of the forest?

              As an example let's trace the Snake River

 to see what man has done to it.  The Snake, rich in

 history and the lore of  Indians, mountain men, and the

 wild frontier,  is born in one of the spectacularly beauti-

 ful spots of  the nation.  It begins at Shoshone and Lewis

 Lakes in Yellowstone National Park between Yellowstone

 Lake and Jackson Hole.   At first it is a wild, sparkling

 mountain stream.  Then it enters Jackson Lake, emerges

 larger and  stronger, and roars down a vicious canyon

where Wilson  Price Hunt  and his American Fur Company com-

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                                                      1196



                   John Chasesa




panions, known as the Astorians, almost died of starvation




and exertion in l8ll when they tried to follow the canyon




west to establish the trading post at Astoria, Oregon.




             In its mad race the Snake soon reaches




lower elevations and the valleys of Idaho.  Here pollution




begins.



             A Public Health Service report shows that




approximately 550,000 people live in the Upper Snake




River Basin.  In 1960, fifty-nine towns and cities and




one hundred fifty-six industries were discharging waste




into the Snake and its tributaries.  No doubt there are




more by now.  Only eighteen percent of these had adequate




sewage treatment facilities, and pollution was increasing




every day.  In fact, the pollution load pouring into the




Snake was equal to the waste from a population of 2,400,000.




Most of this was caused by twenty-four food processing plants,




             Further down the river in the Lewiston-Idaho




area the situation is as bad or worse.  At a water pollution




meeting at Lewiston early this year it was reported that




several towns were adding to the pollution load but these




were of little consequence compared to the waste poured




into the Snake and Glearwater rivers by food processing




plants and particularly by Potlatch Forests Inc.  This




one wood products plant, according to a statement by

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                                                        1197


                     John Chascsa


the Public Health Service, is discharging industrial waste


and sewage from its work force equivalent to the raw sewage


from a population of 299,000 people.


            Murray Stein, Chief of the Public Health


Service Water Pollution Control Enforcement Branch in


Washington, D. C., told the conference that a Federal


study of the pollution showed it to be of an interstate


nature and therefore subject to abatement under the Federal


Water Pollution Control Act.  He said that the Public


Health Service would work with Idaho and Washington in


extending the study with a report to be completed and

                                                       i
available by January 1, 1965.  After that date a reason-


able time -- perhaps two years -- would be allowed for the


completion of water pollution abatement in the area.


            The Snake River empties into the Columbia,


the river to the West, which was the home of more than a


score of Indian tribes and was the canoe and pirogue


highway from the Pacific to the great inland country


of the United States and Canada, the trail of Lewis and


Clark, Wilson Price Hunt, and Captain Bonneville.  The


Columbia is a big river.  Its current was fast and its


waters were alive with salmon and steelhead, the big


sea-going trout -- until the white man began building


dams to change it into a series of lakes and loaded its

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                                                       1198




                    John Chasesa




 tributaries  with many kinds  of  pollution.




              The Yakima River Basin  is  another pollution




 problem.   It is  an  important tributary  of  the  Columbia,




 draining  about 5,000  square  miles  east  of  the  Cascades  in




 Washington.   Some 200,000 people live in the Yakima basin.




 All  of the communities  have  sewage treatment facilities




 and  most  of  the  industries not  connected to municipal sewer




 systems have some type  of water treatment  of their  own.




 But  in spite of  the facilities, which have all  been built




 in recent, years,  pollution is serious and  the  low percent-




 age  of oxygen in the  river below Yakima often  becomes




 critical.








           THE LOWER COLUMBIA IS A  SEWER








              On  down  the Columbia  there is Camas, Washington,




 with its  paper mill;  and then the  cities of Vancouver and




 Longview  and several  small towns with woodworking plants.




 The  Willamette River  enters  from the south carrying a




 load of pollution from  Portland, Oregon City,  Salem and



 Eugene, Oregon.




              The Columbia from  the Camas-Vancouver  area  and




 the  confluence of the Willamette downstream to the  Pacific




Ocean is a sewer.  Commercial fishermen often find  that

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                                                        1199
                   John Chasesa
the goop of pollution loads their nets until they can raise
them only with extreme difficulty.  That is how bad pollution
has become in the lower Columbia.  It is as bad, or worse,
than it has ever been.  This enormous mess will be cleaned
up only when strong measures have been taken and agreements
honored.
             In 1959 the Willamette River at Portland was
described in this way--''0ne swallow would contain enough
germs to make a person deathly sick."  There were eighty
outfalls pouring untreated sewage and commercial waste in-
to the river.  The Public Health Service and the Oregon
State Sanitary Authority got tough.  They told Portland to
live up to her responsibility or face a suit in which she
knew she could not possibly defend herself.  What has been
the result?  Many millions of dollars have been spent building
sewage treatment plants.  But to date not enough have been
built for some untreated sewage and some industrial poison
is still drained into the river.  The condition of the water
is still considerably below that of the Sanitary Authority's
minimum standard.

             WORST POLLUTION PROBLEM
             What appears  to  be  the  worst  pollution

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                                                       1200



                   John Chasesa




problem in the Northwest is that of Puget Sound.  Many




streams and rivers flow into this large estuary.  They




carry waste from numerous towns, cities and industries.




With the best of cooperation and dedicated effort the




condition would be difficult to control, but with ag-




gravated stalling it is serious.



             A report published in 1962 by the Public




Health Service and the State of Washington Pollution Con-




trol Commission states--"Seven pulp and paper mills in




Puget Sound and the Strait of Juan de Fuca area are con-




testing the Wasington Pollution Control Commissions's




order requiring the mills to control the pollution created




by them."




             The report told of the efforts made by state




officials since 19^0 to bring about an abatement of pollution




at these seven mills.  But the Commission is patient.  It




says a reasonable solution can be found and points to the




record.  Of the 532 industrial plants subject to permit




regulations in the Puget Sound-Juan de Fuca area 493 are



in compliance with effluent requirements established by



the state--an average of 93 percent.




             A last minute check with the Public Health




Service indicates that prospects do appear better for




sol'ving the pollution problem on both the Snake River and

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                                                        1201




                   John Chasesa




on Puget Sound.




             It has been reported that the State of Idaho




will take action to enforce pollution control at the in-




dustrial plants along the Snake.  It is expected that waste




disposal facilities will be built within less than two




years to prevent solids from reaching the river.




             The Washington Pollution Control Commission




has now issued operating permits to the seven mills which




have been problems for more than twenty years.  The State




says that the mills have made some improvements and are de-




veloping plans for constructing waste disposal facilities.




In the meantime the Public Health Service and the Washington




Pollution Control Commission are continuing a study of Puget




Sound pollution.  The study has been underway for over two




years and has cost the Federal agency $780,000 with another




$300,000 to be spent in fiscal year 1965.








         ACTION REQUIRES SCIENTIFIC PROOF








             In a suit involving two state of Washington




corporations, Olympia Oyster Co., Inc., vs. Rayonier,




Inc., the U. S. District Court judge said in dismissing




the case last February, that he was convinced beyond a




reasonable doubt that the evidence presented contained no

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                   John Chasesa




issue of fact for the jury to determine.  The Rayonier case




involved dumping sulphite waste into Oakland Bay.   Rayonier,




however, like many companies, had a state permit to dis-




charge a certain amount of waste per week into the water;




the court said that the plaintiff failed to meet scientific




standards of proof to show that Rayonier had exceeded its




waste quota.




             A word of caution should be added here.   Often




emotion-charged accusations or a tendency to go into court




with a lack of proof or with unsubstantiated charges hurts




the conservationists cause.  Too often newspaper headlines




indict, t**y, and convict the accused company in one terse




headline; too often an emotional]y aroused public  assumes




that if the company has been hauled into court it must be




guilty of a violation.  No one contends, of course, that




allowing a certain amount of pollution of our rivers and




streams is good; but in the eyes of the court, laws which




allow such "partial pollution" are valid, and if the vio-




lation is unproven, the court must uphold the law in favor




of the defendant.









     SEVEN MILLS CAUSE 58.3# OF THE POLLUTION









             The latest  action to abate serious and  long-

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                                                        1203
                   John Chascsa
standing pollution problems in the Northwest was taken in
May, 1964, this time by the Oregon State Sanitary Authority.
             After careful study the Authority released a
7^ page report showing that seven pulp and paper mills are
causing 53.3 percent of the pollution in the Willamette
River, the principal stream in western Oregon and the drain-
age of the Willamette Basin in which the bulk of Oregon's
population lives.
             The report predicts that if the mills continue
to allow their loads of waste to reach the river after the
cities and communities have completed their sewage disposal
plants the mills will account for 82.6 percent of the
pollution by December 1966.  These were the mills listed
as offenders:
             Crown Zellerbach Corp. (a sulphite plant),
West Linn; Publishers Paper Co. (sulphite), Oregon City;
Spaulding Pulp & Paper Co. (sulphite), Newberg; Columbia
River Paper Co. (Oregon Pulp and Paper), (sulphite), Salem;
Crown Zellerbach Corp. (sulphite),' Lebanon; Western Kraft
Corp. (a kraft plant), Albany; Weyerhaeuser Company (kraft),
Springfield.  The sulphite plants are listed separately be-
cause their pollution in the Willamette is reported to be
much more serious than that of the kraft plants.
             During August and September  of 1963  a  minimum

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                                                      1204




                       John Chascsa



daily dissolved oxygen content of only 2.0 parts per million



was recorded in Portland's harbor.  The minimum permitted



by Oregon's strong pollution law is 5.0 parts per million.




Slime growths were found to be excessive.  So were fiber



and other settleable solids contained in pulp and paper mill



effluents which have created'bottom sludge deposits.  It is



obvious that salmon and steelhead runs cannot be maintained



nor water recreation continued  in such filthy water.



Concern is felt for the 70 million Chinook salmon planted



in the Willamette during the spring of 1964 by the State



Fish Commission and the U. S. Pish and Wildlife Service.



It is doubted that these fish can return and spawn success-



fully during 1966, 1967 and 1968 unless the water quality



has been improved.



            The Oregon State Sanitary Authority is holding



a series of meetings with the pulp and paper companies to




learn the steps each mill can take to reduce pollution to
         >.


meet the required water purity standard.  A date for com-



pliance will be set after the meetings are concluded.








                 WATER NEEDS FOR THE FUTURE



            The question is — what are we really doing to



stop it?




            Our population is growing rapidly.  In 1900

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                   John Chasesa




there were 76 million Americans.  In 1950 there were 150




million.  In 1960 there were 180 million.  By 1980 it is




expected that our population will reach 260 million.  Ob-




viously the more people there are the more water we have to




have and the more sewage there will be.  In the past 100




years water consumption in the United States has risen from




a few gallons a day per person to about seven hundred gallons




daily per person.  Today the nation is using approximately




323 billion gallons of water daily.  Of this amount, in-




dustry uses l6o billion gallons; irrigation, l4l billion;




municipal, 22 billion.  In 1980 it will jump to 597 billion




gallons per day, with industry using 39^ billion; irrigation,




166 billion; and municipal, 37 billion.




             It takes an ocean of water to maintain our




jobs--l,400 gallons to produce a dollar's worth of steel;




nearly 200 gallons for a dollar's worth of paper; 500 gallons




to manufacture a yard of wool and 320 gallons to make a ton




of aluminum.  Water quality and quantity requires careful




planning and only clean water will do for most of our needs,




So, the water supply must be protected to keep it clean or




it must be treated each time it is used until it is clean.









                   WHAT TO DO?

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                                                         1206




                   John Ghascsa




             Anyone who has taken the trouble to check knows




that it will cost a fantastic amount of money to cope with




the tide of pollution.  But if we can spend billions to put




a man on the moon we can afford clean water.  First, the




nation will have to exert itself to wipe out the backlog of




pollution and start even with the problem.  Then, each year,




it must build new facilities, expand and rebuild old ones




to keep abreast of the increase in population and industrial




expansion.




             One thing that we must not tolerate is the




building of new towns, subdivisions or factories without




adequate sewage facilities to guarantee that they will not




add to the pollution burden.  We know that the job can be




done.  The whole job—for old towns and cities and factories




as well as the new ones.  Since 1965 when the first Federal




water pollution control legislation was passed,  about 4,500




communities have built sewage treatment plants.   Others are




under construction.  Federal grants of approximately 400




million dollars have been approved.  And for each Federal




dollar granted, local communities have spent five dollars



for waste disposal.








           THE BRIGHT SIDE OF THE COIN









             The outstanding example of successful co-

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                                                        1207
                   John Chasesa
operative pollution control is the work of the Ohio River
Authority.  States, cities, town, villages and industries
have worked together to clean up the filthy Ohio river
from Pittsburgh to the Mississippi.  They had to do it
if they were to continue to use the water and live be-
side the river.  Now, they are proud of the job they
have done.
             In the Pacific Northwest another pollution
headache shows some promise of finally being solved.  In
the very heart of the city of Seattle is beautiful Lake
Washington.  Like some other waters in the fast growing
region it became polluted and infested with algae.  A
metropolitan organization was formed a few years ago to
clean up the lake.  It is succeeding in spite of the fact
that all towns and communities are said not to be co-
operating.  In ten years Seattle expects its big, jewel-
like lake to be clean.  It will be an important victory.,
             The rest of the country must do a similar
job.  The pressure for clean water will never stop.  It
cannot.  Conservation groups, including The American Forestry
Association, report that pollution is the topic most on
the minds of many of their members today.  In days gone by,
the AFA could meet in almost any part of the country and

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                                                       1208



                  John Chascsa




talk forestry and only forestry.    But not any more.




Today, more and more members are  saying,  "Fine, fine  —




but what are you doing about stream pollution?"

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                                                          1209




                    John Chasesa









                 CITY OF DETROIT




                DEPARTMENT REPORT £




               INFORMATION COMMITTEE




                WO 5-4200 EXT. 7250




                     TOM McPHAIL









              CONSTRUCT




              Two projects make up the major  portion  of




 the $184 million, ^0-year sewer construction program




 outlined Thursday by the National Sanitation Foundation.




              The construction program was  part  of  a  compre-




 hensive report on future sewerage needs  of the  six-county




 Detroit area delivered to a special meeting  of  the




 Supervisors Inter-County Committee and Detroit  area




 business and community leaders at the Veterans  Memorial




 Building.




              The Foundation also recommended development




 of  $65  million worth of additional sewage  treatment




 facilities  after 1975.




              The largest sewer project is  the North  In-




 terceptor, a 112-mile network of pipe that  would collect




 all sewage  from Macomb County and from part  of  Oakland




County.

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                                                         1210




                   John Chascsa




             It would be connected to the Detroit De-




partment of Water Supply (DWS) sewage treatment plant




at 9300 W. Jefferson.




             Communities that would be served by the




interceptor include Mt. Clemens,  Romeo,  Utica, Warren,




Rochester.




             Estimated cost of the interceptor and five




companion pumping stations was set at $124.2 million.




The report suggested that the first portion should be




completed by 1966 and the entire  network done by the




year 2000.




             The other major project is  the Huron River-




Hannan Road Interceptor.




             It is recommended to serve  much of Wash-




tenaw County—including Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti--and




parts of Wayne and Oakland Counties.




             The Foundation recommended  that planning




for the interceptor should be finished by 1970 and




construction completed by 1990.




             Total cost was estimated at $28.6 million.




             A major sewage treatment plant should be




developed at the outlet of the Huron River-Harmon Road




Interceptor,the report urged.




             Cost estimates  for the plant  ranged  from

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                                                          1211




                   John Chasesa




$11.5 million to $37.1 million, depending on capacity.




             Additional capacity also was recommended




for the DWS treatment plant.  It now receives some 80




per cent of the sewage flow in the metropolitan area.




             The report urged expansion after 1975 at an




estimated cost of $53.5 million, noting that an improve-




ment program now in progress will provide sufficient




capacity until then.




             The report stated that local governments




should keep the responsibility for "building local




lateral and sub-collector sewers.

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                     John Chascsa








          "THE RAPE OF A WATER WONDERLAND"








            A gruesome title, no doubt?  But true.



            In the July 1962 issue of the Readers




Digest there appeared an article on page 151 titled



"The Rape of our Southern Mountains."



            Every American should have read it.  Every



voting American should have read it.  Every voting American



should have remembered it.  Every penny-budgeting house-



wife and sportsman and every conscientious Christian



should have read it and done something about it, even if



he only hung his head in shame.



            To commercialize in the gullibility of poor
                                                       \


hills folks is not Christian.  To abuse the stature of



being a businessman by destroying the life blood of those



of our citizens through so-called "shrewd business



manipulation" is certainly un-American and un-Christian.




            When we, as individuals, resign ourselves to



a state of deplorable complacency by accepting the "do-



nothing" bureaucrats who spend our money, as well as set



the amount of tribute  we must pay to maintain these



bureaucracies, as something we have no power or say-so




about, then we are lost.

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                     John Chascsa



            We elect men to represent us in various



phases of Government to do our bidding and to help us



determine the best course to follow.  Unfortunately,




only a very few take their oath seriously.  Very few



attend all sessions that are held in Washington and in



our State and county legislative capitols.




            We have created agencies and commissions and



various study groups, and, frankly, I believe the committee




studying the sex life of the gnat is about the most capable



of submitting an acceptable report — if there is such a



committee.



            Since the late 1870's we have had one after



another anti-pollution committee created.  We have had a




biological study going on in the Great Lakes for many years,



with geologists, biologists, conservationists, health




authorities, and many, many more who have compiled tons and



tons of reports.  In the past forty, fifty or sixty years we




have bragged of our intelligence and know-how, to do more



and better than any other nation on earth.  We have proven




that man can fly, send rockets and missiles any place on



earth and probably to the moon, and we haven't skimped on



the cost of these experiments, in spite of the staggering



amount.  Yes, we should be proud of our so-called accomplish-




ments.  We should be very proud and very humble in

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                                                         1214




                   John Chasesa




dealing with our less fortunate neighbors, also,no matter




who they are.




             The t rip -^to—the -moon commission has never




been denied their request for funds - these are always




available.




             The Committees on Pollution study, water,




health, public safety, sanitation and many environmental




aspects of our well being have been belittled and slighted




and pushed aside after almost a whole decade of studies,




until today we suddenly realize the importance of safe




clean water.  Of what earthly use are all the facts and




figures gathered in the past fifty years to us?  We permit




lobbyists to legally have our laws changed to suit their




clients wants.  We disregard the Riparian Rights of the




little guy, (who is all important at election time) and




forgotten after election.




             In 1961 Governor, John B. Swainson was asked




to call the United States Public Health Service in to




study the Pollution problem in the Detroit River, Lake




Erie, Lake St. Glair, Huron River, River Raisin and




many smaller tributaries leading into our lakes.  What




was the real reason?  Did someone feel sorry for the




plight of the residents along the Detroit River, Lake




Erie, or was there another reason?  Did the pipe dream

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                                                      1215




                    John  Chasesa




 of the Detroit  and  Wayne County  Planners back fire when




 they found their  plan  for another  Italian Venus type of




 island chain, in  the Harsens  Island area,filtered silt




 into their water  supply  station  at Belle Isle?  Remember




 the  screaming public demanding to  know what went wrong?




 Why  the bad taste?  Why  the industrial waste, etc?  Was




 this a way to get Federal Funds  to pipe water from Lake




 Huron? Perhaps it  should be  interesting to note the




 chain of  events prior  to and  after the S.O.S. for all the




 people under Federal jurisdiction to come to the aid of




 the  large Metropolis of  Detroit.  0 yes!  we all pay




 Federal taxes and only the large cities and those with




 pull are  worthy of  getting any finances for the things




 needed to maintain  good  health and other necessities of




 which we  hear and are  told, we should have, to be good




 citizens  and healthy Americans.




             Most all  communities cannot afford even a




 trip to Washington  to  seek assistance.  However, one of




 our  more  ambitious  Mayors requested fifty thousand dollars



 to maintain an  office  in Washington to be nearer the source




 of Federal  grants,  loans and gifts.  Thanks to Council-




 woman Mary Beck,  it was  defeated.




             You  may say, what has all this to do with




Pollution?   Well; let us  look back a bit, on the 2?th and

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                                                         1216



                   John Chasesa




and 28th of March 19^2, a Conference was held at The




Veterans Memorial Hall in Detroit.  The findings of




the United States Public Health Service substantiated




that there was definite cause for a thorough investigation




into the cause of Pollution.  This was substantiated by




written and oral evidence by many State agencies, the




Army Corps of Engineers, various Sportsmans Clubs and




a  Citizens Group known as the Lake Erie Cleanup Committee,




who not only submitted written evidence, but also twenty




nine jars of water in various degrees of Pollution, taken




at twenty nine separate locations, raring from the Toledo,




Ohio State line to and including River Raisin, Lake Erie,




Swan Creek, Huron River, Detroit River and River Rouge.




             A statement was made at this conference that




the people in the Lake Erie and Monroe area couldn't




possibly have such a problem.  One of Detroit's leading




citizenry even went so far as to state that; a little re-




fuse doesn't hurt anyone and that perhaps he would be asked




to put diapers on the Wild Ducks flying over these waters




so it could stay clean.  A very intelligent remark to be




made by a man who is looked up to by many.  In recent




statements to the Press he ridiculed the U. S. Public




Health Personnel for doing a thorough job.  (I know it was




thorough,  because I personally followed all or almost all

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                                                        1217
                   John Chasesa




 °f  the  study) when others  of our organization were able




 they  also  followed the progress.  According to this man's




 statement  this was all a waste of time and uncalled for.




 The water  quality is  so much more improved and has been on




 the up-grade since 1940.   If this water  is so much better,




 then  the jars we have on display on the  table must be




 fakes?  'However these don't seem to coincide with the




 statement  made by Mr. Remus.




             On March 27,  1964 the Water Resources granted




 permission for the Stauffer Chemical Corporation to dump




 $4,000  worth of chloride into the River Raisin.




             May 14, 1964  State Conservation Board takes




 action  to  get two additional parks.




             March 24, 1964, Home Canning and Blissfield




 Canning resented the permission granted by State Water




 Resources.




             March 28, 1964, Representative has Bill




 passed  to  permit boats under twenty-five feet to dump




 waste into our waters.




             July 27, 1964, river waste  in Clinton River




 forces  Utica to ask for Detroit water.




             I also submit clippings to  show how much




 Lake  Erie  has deteriorated.  As Justice William 0. Douglas




stated,  sewage treatment plants not dams are needed.

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                                                        1218




                   John Ghascsa









        "SUB COMMITTEE REPORT OF PROPOSED




         USE OF OUR LAKE ERIE SHORE LINE"









             MANY USES OF THE SHORES OF LAKE ERIE ARE




EVIDENT AND AMONG THEM ARE RECREATION, INDUSTRIAL, RE-




SIDENTIAL, PORT FACILITIES AND WILD FOWL AND SMALL GAME




SANCTUARY.




             LET US START AT POINTS MOUILLEE, LOCATED




JUST BELOW GIBRALTER AND AT THE MOUTH OF THE HURON RIVER




AND LAKE ERIE.




             1)  This area is best suited for recreation




and for private enterprise, such as marinas, water side




motels, summer recreational spas and scenic rest areas,




as well as a number of other income producing enterprising




ventures.  This could also be a continuation of the Huron




Metropolitan Park authority project, as well as a beach




area.




             2)  Swan Creek and Estral Beach area - With




little financial effort and a determination to develop a




small craft harbor, this area could be turned into a




financial boon for Monroe County as well as Berlin Town-




ship.  Estral beach offers a very large area for small




craft refuge and Swan Creek offers a most enviable position

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                                                       1219



                     John Chascsa




for the accommodation of small boat races,, rowing contests




and many related fund-raising activities.  There is room




for the development of waterside motels, hotels, restaurants,




launching sites, fishing and many other related activities.




            3)  Stony Point, Brest Bay area.  There are



no better facilities for boating, fishing, swimming and




other water-borne sports as well as suitable residential




facilities if and when developed further.




            b)  Bay Crest, Woodland Beach, Indian Trails,




Detroit Beach area, located near the State-operated Park,




Sterling Park.  Ideal for the development of all-year-




round housing and recreational facilities.  There are




excellent fishing and swimming facilities (when the water




is not polluted), a magnet that draws people to this




area.  This could be a tourist attraction for the area




as well as a haven for small boat enthusiasts.




            5)  Sterling State Park is an ideal location




for tourists to be drawn to.  It is the entrance to the




Water Wonderland we brag so much of and find the people




do not care to use for some unknown reason, except that




perhaps the signs that are posted scare the people away.




No one cares to oppose a sign that states that the water




in the area is not safe for swimming or recreation.  The




site offers a possible trailer camp site, a tent site-

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                                                        1220




                   John Chasesa




a launching site and a very (or could be)  ideal picnic




site.  Ideally located for Ohio, Indiana and Pennsylvania




and Michigan residents to get to in a little time,  and




close enough to employment that it could be an ideal




location.




             6)  River Raisin and Port of  Monroe area -




This area could be developed into a very choice controlled




industrial area as well as possible annex  to Sterling State




Park.  A very fine location for a Port facility.




             7)  Plum Greek, Bolles Harbor, Luna Peir,




La Plaisance Bay and all the Shore line to Toledo,  is an




ideal location for small boat facilities as well as other




diversified recreational activities and a  small boat




harbor.  Below Luna Peir ideally suited for controlled




industrial development.




             This whole area is easily reached and  travel




is ideal and should be developed.









                         Submitted by John Chasesa




                         Sub-Committee Member

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                                                          1221




                    John Chasesa









                    ON POLLUTION








 Editor, Evening News:




              I am 9 and I am interested in fish.  I have




 been reading about water pollution and how it kills fish,




 I was wondering what the city of Monroe is doing about




 water pollution.




                          David Strayer




                          820 Hollywood Dr.









 February 17, 1965




 Editor's Note:




              Pollution is not a problem that  can be solved




 locally, either by Monroe or any other single community.




 Millions of dollars are being spent in a co-operative  effort




 to solve the problem, or at least to minimize it.




              Monroe Mayor William J. Agusta said the water-




 pollution problem is being attacked by local, county,  state,




 federal and international officials.  He said Monroe is




 awaiting results, due next month, of an extensive  survey




 undertaken by the Army Corps of Engineers which  is ex-




 pected to pinpoint the origin of pollution from  the




Detroit River to regions in Ohio.  The engineers will

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                                                         1222




                   John Chasesa




make recommendations to solve the problem.




             Dr. G. D. Barrett, director of the Monroe




County Health Department, said the Public Health Service




is completing a 2|- year study of the problem which in-




volved taking water samples from lakes, rivers and




streams in this region.




             We congratulate you, David, for taking an




interest in such an important civic problem at an early




age.  Keep on being interested, interest your friends




and you and they interest grownups.  When enough people




are concerned, a way will be found to cure conditions




which now exist.

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                                                        1223




                    John Cha.scsa








            LAKE ERIE CLEANUP  COMMITTEE




             NEWPORT, MICHIGAN - 48l66









                               March  30,  1965




Master  David Strayer




820 Hollywood Drive




Monroe, Michigan









Dear David:




              How does  one  answer a nine  year old boys'




letter?   It  is  difficult,  but  I will  try.




              Though you probably have  never heard of me,




I feel  as though I  have known  you all  of your young life.




You see,  I have  two boys and  four girls  and they too




were nine years  old one time.




              Like yourself, they enjoyed to swim, boat




and fish  and  though they are now much  older, they still




en.joy the waters.



              My  children were  able to  swim in Lake Erie




without too much fear  up until  five years ago.  Since then




however, my youngest daughter  is  unable to swim in Lake




Erie because  whatever  pollutes  the water makes her ill and




causes her skin to  erupt.  I can  recall when as a boy, I

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                                                       1224





                   John Chasesa




could drink this water without any ill effect but today




it would be foolhardy to even try.




             In 1961, Mary Margaret Revel attempted to




swim a long distance down the Detroit River to Lake Erie




and to Toledo.  In August 1962,  Barbara Smoot tried to




swim from Amherstburg, Ontario to the River Raisin at




Monroe.  Both girls became very 111 from the pollution




in both the Detroit River and Lake F.rie.




             Yes David,  many tests have been made of the




water in Lake Erie and the streams emptying into it, but




it seems that there is still enough room to store addi-




tional research data and we probably will not see the day




when actual efforts are  put into motion to once agaJ.n




make these waters safe.




             Pollution which starts at the kitchen sinks;




at the drains of factories and at the sewers of munici-




palities wind-up eventually in our rivers and lakes.




             Yes David,  studies  have been conducted for




the past forty years or  more and many are being conducted




at the present time.  Many Village, County and State




Committees are functioning as representatives of those




of us who are paying their salaries and they certainly




have not given us our dollars worth.  Then too, David,





there is the big overshadowing benevolence of some In-

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                                                         1225




                    John  Chasesa




 dustries  who tell  us,  the  public,  that  they will give




 us  a playground; a nice  large  swimming  pool;  a nice money-




 contribution for a Civic Center  and many  other good things.




 All  this  to  be  given  at  no cost  to the  communities




 affected,  in return for  permission to pollute our rivers




 and  lakes.   Yes David, no  cost I




              Let us see  how this works  -  for  the sake




 of  something to say.   When some  industries move into




 a community,  the air  becomes white with lime  dust; red




 with iron ore dust; black  with coal dust  and  on top of




 all  this,  SMELLY.   The water that  I could swim in as a boy




 of nine,  drink  without filtering and fish in, is now




 dirty,  slimy and all  colors of the rainbow.   Very little




 fishing now  --  to  drink  the water  would be suicide and




 swimming  is  only for  the dare-devil types.




              Yes David,  our waters have become like "Russian.




 Roulette".   One never  knows when Hepatities,  Dermatlties,




 Typhoid or perhaps something worse will get you.  In 1962,




 our  Water Resources Commission and our  Health Department



 and  several  of  our Commissions told us  "you people have




 nothing to worry about in  Monroe County.    The siltation




 that is prevalent  in the lake  is natural  and  cannot be




 controlled."  They failed  however  to mention  how many times





a day barge after barge brought waste from dredging and

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                                                         1226

                   John Ghascsa

other sources and dumped it into Lake Erie.  They also

did not mention the mess made by dumping the waste from

River Raisin, River Rouge and the Detroit River into

Lake Erie and the resulting end - the destruction of all

the beach areas in Michigan and Ohio which border Lake

Erie.

             Oh yes - they also do not mention the eight

dumping grounds from Cleveland to the mouth of the Detroit

River.  Yes David, educated adults deprive you of your

right to accept or reject something which you have a

right to.  It is not considered wrong, it is Politics

and you just do not have a voice in the matter.

             If you should pile your rubbish alongside

of your neighbors' fence and it* spills over into his

yard, you are wrong.  If you were to build an outhouse

at the rear of your yard and it smells up the neighborhood,

you most certainly are wrong and could be put into jail

and looked upon as an idiot for daring to endanger the

health of your neighbors.  But - not if you pollute the

rivers or lakes.
             Yes David, when you talk of these things to

come of our public protectors, they say, water can be

made safe for human consumption.  They speak a partial

truth however, for riot so long ago in Colorado the water

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                                                          1227




                   John Chasesa




in a small community was treated so very thoroughly that




it caused the Hospitals in the area to be filled with




"nine year old " children as well as others over and under




nine.




             David, when you grow up, I hope you will be




able to help make people realize that everyone should be




considered when water and air is to be polluted by anyone.




I hope when you are a man that other men will have de-




veloped, not only a rocket to the moon, fresh water from




sea water, missiles that can be sent soaring five thousand




miles or more,, but also a healthy respect for their fellow




man by purifying all industrial and municipal waste as




well.




             Well David, I hope you will remember that there




are many groups like the Lake Erie Cleanup Committee,




who are fighting to clean up the air and water for the




next generation - of which you are a part.  If the men




of our generation cannot find the time to eliminate




pollution, then it will have to be done by the Mothers




and their sons and daughters.




             Let us learn to be honest with one another.




We can, then, once more hold our heads high.




             God Bless you David and guide you through

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                                                          1228




                   John Chasesa




your life....




             Your friend,,









                         Sincerely.,




                         JOHN CHASCSA, President




                         Lake Erie Cleanup Committee

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                                                        1229
             MR. STEIN:   I would now  like  to  give you




what the schedule for  tomorrow and  subsequently  is  going



to be.




             We are going to have the municipalities and




the industries, and here  is the tentative  line-up:




             I,  The City of Detroit.




             2.  The City of Wyandotte.




             3.  Grosse lie Township.




             4.  Supervisory Intercounty Committee.




             Then we go to the Great  Lakes Steel, McLouth




Steel, Allied Chemical and the various divisions, Scott




Paper, Wyandotte Chemical, Pennsalt Chemicals, Monsanto,




Ford Motor Company; and there may be  a statement from




duPont.



             So, at the present time, we shall stand




recessed until  9:30 tomorrow morning.




             Thank you*
              (Whereupon,  at  4:55 p0m.,  an adjournment




was taken until Thursday,  June  17,  1965,  at 9:30  a.m.)
                          * U. S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE : 1965 O - 792-121 (Vol. 4)

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