r
t Transcript of Proceedings
UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
CONFERENCE ON ENCAPSULATION OF
ASBESTOS-CONTAINING BUILDING
MATERIALS
Volume 2
Arlington, Virginia
June 9 , 1981
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U. S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
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3 CONFERENCE ON ENCAPSULATION OF ASBESTOS-
4 CONTAINING BUILDING MATERIALS
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' Tuesday, June 9, 1981
Sheraton National Hotel
Washington Blvd. and Columbia
Pike,
10 Arlington, Virginia
8:30 a.m.
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PANEL MEMBERS:
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Dr. Robert Sawyer, Yale University
John Arpin, Arpin Products
Joe Martin, Law Engineering Testing Co.
15 Ralph Self, North Carolina Department of Education
David Spinazzola, Spinaxxolo-Nash, Inc.
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Forest Reinhardt, EPA
17 Robert Berhinig, Underwriters Laboratories
Magnus Hienzsch, Architect
lg Anthony McMahon, N.J. Department of Environmental
Protection
19 Dr. Dhun Patel, N.J. Department of Health
Eugene Secor, H. B. Fuller Company
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PANELIST: PAGE:
Dr. Sawyer, Yale University 11
John Arpin, Arpin Products 25
Joe Martin, Law Engineering Testing Co. 35
Ralph Self, North Carolina Dept. of Educa. 44
David Spinazzolo, Spinazzolo-Nash, Inc. 55
Robert Berhinig, Underwriters Laboratories 107
Magnus Hienzsch, Architect 109
Eugene Secor, H. B. Fuller Company 112
Anthony McMahon, N.J. Dept. of Environmental
Protection 118
Dr. Dhun Patel, N.J. Dept. of Health
123
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MR. REINHARDT: Good morning.
3 I would like to start by sort of giving a brief
4 overview of what we are going to do today. I am going to
talk briefly on the topic that I was supposed to talk on
6 yesterday, which is our work with ASTM and our ongoing
7 research on encapsulation. Then we will take five minutes
to set up the panel.
9 I hope to get a floor mike today so that when you
10 ask questions from the floor everybody will be able to hear
n them.
12 I think the speakers yesterday pointed out a
13 number of problems with regard to encapsulants and .
14 encapsulation, and EPA's program which addresses those
15 issues, and I am going to talk for about five minutes
16 today about how EPA proposes to address some of those
17 issues.
18 One problem that I think is obvious from Mr.
19 Mirick's speech yesterday morning, is that Battelle doesn't
20 have the money to test and retest every new formulation and
21 product that comes out, so that may be inhibiting the
introduction of new products on to the market, since most
23 contractors and building owners seem to be reluctant to
24 accept products which haven't been submitted to some kind
25 of standardized testing.
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I think that the presentations of Mr. Lory and
2 Mr. Hubbard pointed out the need for field testing of
3 .encapsulants. Since we can't really run laboratory tests
4 on actual asbestos containing material, it is not clear to
what extent you can take the test results that you get on
these mineral wool matrixes and apply them to 50 percent
7 amosite or 50 percent chrysotile, or whatever.
g There is a problem that EPA isn't in a position
9 to approve encapsulants. To address all of these problems,
10 Battelle's and EPA's lack of money, the need for field
testing and EPA inability to approve encapsulants just for
12 policy reasons, we are working with ASTM to develop some
13 kind of performance standard for encapsulants which will
14 include both laboratory tests and f iels tests, and which
15 will allow manufacturers to have any product they want tested
at their own expense.
17 The ASTM Subcommittee that is working on this
lg standard is a Subcommittee of ASTM Committee E-6, which
19 looks at building materials and tests for building materials.
20 The Subcommittee is composed of manufacturers of
01 encapsulants, of contractors, of bureuacrats like myself,
22 and representatives of testing laboratories, like
03 Underwriters Laboratories.
04 At this point we have tentative lists of tests
25 that we intend to require in the laboratory and in the field,
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1 and now we have people on the Subcommittee who are expert
2 in each particular field writing each particular tests.
3 The lab tests will be conducted on a specified nonasbestos
4 containing material, probably similar to the material that
5 Bill Mirick used in his tests at Battelle, and at this
6 point we plan to require tests for cohesion and adhesion,
7 in other words, which is the effect of the encapsulant on
8 the cohesive strength of the test matrix. Tests for
9 penetration, in the case o.f penetrating sealants, tests
10 for flexibility, surface abrasion, resistance to surface
11 impact, fiber release, fire resistance, surface burning
12 characteristics, including flame spread, smoke generations
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13 and possible toxic gas generation and, finally, aging.
14 That may seem like a rather extensive list of
15 tests. We have tried to keep the field tests to a minimum
16 since they have to be conducted each time somebody intends
17 to do an encapsulation job. The cost can quickly become
18 ridiculous. We do, however, want to -.make sure that the
19 field tests establish that the encapsulant will perform well
20 on the asbestos containing material on which it is actually
21 used, and the field test which ASTM is planning to require
22 is for cohesion and adhesion, a bond test, a fiber release
93 test and penetrat^cn,
24 We are now in the process of writing the individual
25 tests. Once the tests are written and the Task Group that is
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1 writing the the standard decides they will approve them, it
2 typically takes about a year before the standard is
3 finalized, because it has to receive the approval of the
4 Subcommittee, the approval of the full Committee and,
5 finally, the approval of the whole society. ASTM are
6 effective immediately upon society approval, although a
7 mechanism exists whereby changes can be made, if necessary.
8 My personal estimate is that it will probably take us about
9 six more months to put together a standard with all the
10 individual tests that we like well enough to send it to
11 the Subcommittee to see if they approve it, so we are
12 probably talking about 18 months before the thing hits the
13 street.
14 Membership on the ASTM Committee E-6 is apparently
15 open to everyone, and it is my understanding that they are
16 always glad to accept new members, and we would like to
17 encourage input into the process, because the more people
18 we h.ave participating before we actually put the thing in
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19 the books, the fewer changes we will have to make later,
20 and the happier everybody will be.
21 Now, if it is going to be another year before
22 ASTM actually finalizes its performance standard, it seems
23 reasonable to try to think os something to do in the
24 meantime, since that is quite a while. EPA is planning to
25 produce its own interim test protocols for the laboratory
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1 and for the field, to conduct a quality assurance program
2 for the laboratory tests to make sure that the labs conducting
3 the tests are competent.
4 We want to get EPA out of the testing business
5 for practical reasons, primarily because we just can't
6 afford to do it any longer.
7 The laboratory test protocols which we are now
8 developing will more or less take over where the Battelle
9 investigations left off. Once the test protocols are out,
10 manufacturers of encapsulants will be able to submit their
11 products to whatever laboratory they want, and the
12 laboratory would then conduct the tests according to the
13 protocols that EPA has given them. And then we are sort
14 of counting on the manufacturers to make the information
15 that comes out of these tests available to the public.
16 The test procedures that we are contemplating now
17 are similar to Battelle's tests for toxic gas generation,
18 smoke generation, flame spread, abrasion and impact, and
19 fiber release, and these laboratory tests would be conducted
20 on a nonasbestos test matrix, probably similar to the one
2i that Battelle used. In most respects, then, these test
22 procedures will be very similar to the ones that Battelle used.
93 The main difference between the two phases of the
24 program, the one that we are just completing and the one that
95 we are just moving into, is that any laboratory, and not just
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Battelle will be able to conduct the tests, so manufacturers,
presumably, won't have the problem of having a formula they
think is great and having Battelle say, sorry, EPA hasn't
given us enough money. We can't test it.
We do plan to have Battelle run certain randomly
6 selected tests on each encapsulant. That is going to be our
7 quality assurance program. And we strongly recommend that
8 before any asbestos containing material in a building is
9 encapsulated the contractor conduct a field test using the
10 encapsulant that he plans to use and using the application
11 techniques that he plans to use, and we are also in the
12 process of writing test procedures for those tests. They
13 will probably include such things as curing, the effect of
14 the encapsulant on the adhesive and cohesive strength of the
15 asbestos containing material, resistance of the encapsulated
16 material to abrasion and impact, some sort of fiber release
17 tests, possibly a penetrating test for penetrating sealants,
18 and the test for film thickness for bridging sealants.
19 We are not contemplating any kind of quality
20 assurance for the field tests, and I would like to stress
21 that these aren't regulatory requirements. We hope that
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people will conform to them in a spirit of cooperation, but
we don't have the legal clout to make them use them.
The test procedures that we are developing now
will then be superseded by the ASTM standard when the ASTM
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standard is finished. I can speak for EPA a little bit
more strongly than I can for ASTM.
3 We are very anxious to get as much input as
4 possible into the test protocols once we get them finished.
If your names are on the mailing lists out there, we will
try to send you copies as soon as we are done, and we would
like to have your comments, if you think that other tests
are necessary, if you think that certain tests are redundant
or unnecessary, we would like to know about it.
10 Up to this point I have been talking more about
encapsulants and choosing between different encapsulants
and so forth than I really have about encapsulation. EPA's
position on encapsulation is drawn primarily from Bill
14 Mirick's research and is substantially similar to that
15 position.
16 The little booklet called "Guidelines for the Use
of Encapsulants on Asbestos Containing Materials," which
18 was in the green folders which you picked up yesterday, was
19 written by EPA with a lot of consultation and help from
9Q Battelle, but if there are mistakes in the document, they
,?1 are EPA's fault and not Battelle's. I am not sure if you
09 have had a chance to read it yet. If you do get a chance,
I would be very glad to know what you think of it, even if
94 it is not complimentary.
The document talks first about the advantages and
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1 disadvantages of the use of encapsulants. It talks about
2 limitations that EPA perceives as affecting the use of
3 encapsulants. For instance, we don't think that
4 encapsulation should be considered on material which was
5 water damaged.
6 The second chapter of the document talks about
7 the difference between bridging and penetrating sealants,
8 and we feel that each is appropriate. I realize that some
9 of you regard that as an artificial distinction, and I
10 would be happy to talk with you about that.
11 The third chapter talks about how one should go
12 about selecting an encapsulant. That is something that we
13 have a lot more work to do on. That is why we are working
14 with ASTM.
15 After a brief look at latex paints, which EPA
16 regards as suitable only on cementitious materials in good
17 condition, the document goes on to talk about proper
18 application procedures, which is actually going to be
19 addressed in the panel here in a few minutes.
20 Does anybody have any question?
21 VOICE: When will your interim guidelines be
22 completed?
23 MR. REINHARDT: I believe they will be cc:vvlo;i_;
24 about a month after we manage to put our contract in place.
25 There has been a considerable amount of .difficulty. ..in SPA
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l with contracts. I would imagine that they would be out by
2 the end of July.
3 Anything else?
4 VOICE: Who is the contractor? Have you selected
5 one yet?
6 MR. REINHARDT: The contractor who is going to do
7 the quality assurance business? It is going to be Battelle.
8 If we can take about five minutes, then, and set
9 up the panel.
10 (RECESS.)
11 MR. REINHARDT: I would like to introduce our
12 distinguished panel here:
13 Immediately to my left is David Spinazzolo of
14 Spinazzolo-Nash, Incorporated, a contracting firm based in
15 Richmond and Hampton, Virginia, which does removal as well
16 as encapsulation work.
17 . ' Next is Dr. Robert Sawyer of Yale University, who,
18 I think, doesn't need any introduction. He is recognized as
19 one of the country's foremost experts on asbestos, and he is
20 going to begin the panel by talking briefly and showing some
21 slides.
22 Next is Joe Martin who holds a Master's Degree in
23 Engineering from Vanderbilt University. He is an asbestos
24 consultant.
05 Next is Ralph Self who has been working for two
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years in North Carolina's program to address the problem of
asbestos in schools.
3 Mr. John Arpin who recently retired after 30
4 years of conducting materials research and development for
the Army, and has spent about five years formulating
6 encapsulants.
7 Finally, John Wilson, who works with me at the
EPA, and runs the Technical Assistance Program, which
9 provides information to schools and local officials.
10 Dr. Sawyer?
11 DR. SAWYER: What I would like to do is run
12 through a slide collection that I have on the general
13 subject of asbestos to try to .make sure that we understand
14 some of the basic characteristics of asbestos, some of the
15 basic abilities and deficiencies of measuring systems, some
16 of the basic areas of ignorance that exist in our knowledge
17 of what is going on with asbestor related diseases.
18 After some of the comments I heard about
19 yesterday's presentation, I would like to entitle this
20 "Getting Back to Reality." I would like to discuss what we
21 do know, and I would also like to outline what we don't
22 know about what we are doing and about what we are trying
23 to solve. With that in mind we will run very quickly
24 through these slides.
25 (SLIDE:)
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We are going to be skipping quite a few of them
because I don't think they are relevant to the purpose of
this discussion. We will just go right through them.
This is the slide to discourage any note takers
in the audience.
(SLIDE:)
These are asbestos related diseases. The pertinent
item here, the main characteristic of all these diseases,
is their long latency period. They are indeed progressive.
You can remove an individual from exposure and the disease
process continues. There is a very extended latency period,
from 10 to 50 years, depending on the disease we are talking
about and also the dose that the person is exposed to. Those
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two items have tremendous significance to.the epidemiology
of the disease and also to the legal aspects of asbestos
related diseases.
(SLIDE:)
All of the malignancies, of course, with the
exception of the mesothelioma can be caused by other agents.
The mesothelioma more and more looks like a truly asbestos
related disease. Legally it establishes asbestos exposure.
This is a legally accepted fact right now. Whether it is
true biologically or not is still a question.
(SLIDE:)
This is an important slide. This describes the
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most important characteristic of asbestos fibers, that they
2 have aerodynamic capability, and no matter what system you
3 are using in abatement you will try to compromise this.
4 This is a family of curves th.at describes settling effects
of asbestos. The human blook cell is 7 microns in diameter.
If you get a fiber 5 microns long and 1 micron wide it
7 takes 4 hours for that fiber in still air to settle from
8 a ceiling. You can be talking about times that really gets
9 up into the number of hours. That example there shows 80
10 hours. This- gives you some idea of the aerodynamic ability
of the fiber. This means that it is available for human
respiration, and again, because of its size and mas.a and
13 weight characteristics, it is able to penetrate the human
14 defense mechanisms and be retained in the body, where it
.. can go to work.
16 (SLIDE.)
This is a school ceiling where the little darlings
lg have been engaged in a removal program. This is a library
shelf with asbestos, 20 percent chrysolite material in it,
which, will be available for reentrant into the atmosphere.
0 Asbestos on books. Fortunately, these are at Yale University,
.-,.., so no student got near them or opened them.
..,3 (SLIDE:
., This is a rare slide of a maintenance worker actually
wearing a respirator.
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(SLIDE:)
2 This is Ellis Island. All that lagging is 60 to
3 80 percent amosite, very dangerous stuff.
4 (SLIDE:)
This is a slide showing some of the experimental
spaces where we got a lot of our data. This is some of the
data we collected on airborne asbestos levels under various
conditions.
9 (SLIDE:)
10 For your convenience, these have all been put on
11 a five cy.cle semilogarithmic plot. These show ranges of
12 fiber concentrations, running from essentially nonmeasurable
13 levels with the optical microscopy system up to 100 fibers
14 per CC. This is what encapsulation is all about. This is
15 why we try to reduce the ability of friable asbestos
16 containing material to disburse fibers into the atmosphere.
17 As you can see up there, the fiber counts have a
18 tremendous variation and variability in range, depending
19 upon what is done to them. Most of the things up there
20 have to do with disturbance and contact with friable asbestos
21 containing material and having caused a subsequent fiber
22 release in the local environment.
23 The significance, if you apply the OSHA standards
24 to this —
25 (SLIDE:)
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These are the OSHA limits for airborne fiber
exposure, so some of these situations, such as machining
down fibers, some custodial work, some renovation, vandalism,
and wet removal, will exceed present OSHA standards. Again
the relevance here is that encapsulation hopefully will
inhibit the fiber release and prevent this from happening.
This is the inner section of the NIOSH proposed
0.1 level and some of the data that we found in buildings.
The contaminant that we are talking about, the main point
10 here to look at is it is durable and aerodynamic and that
11 the friable material is most efficient in releasing it.
12 It is important to realize that contamination can occur by
13 fallout, contact, and reentrainment. It is episodic. It
14 is activity related. And these two things, again,
15 encapsulation should compromise the ability of the .friable
16 material to release fibers during this episodic activity
17 related release so as to prevent the contact dispersal and
18 the fallout with encapsulation.
19 (SLIDE:)
20 Here is reality now. There are some problem areas
in asbestos abatement or evaluation of asbestos problems.
Number one is the basic bulk sample analysis. There was a
•73 widespread lack of confidence in doing a bulk analysis , in
24 other words, looking at a friable asbestos containing
95 material and knowing whether there is asbestos in it. The
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greatest fault that you will find is the use of phase
contrast optics instead of microscopy to do the analysis. You
will get a lot of positives back when it is really cellulose
or iBibrous glass or other fibrous components. It will not
really be asbestos.
(SLIDE:)
Standard air sampling. We will get to that more
in a moment.
Analysis of bulk samples. PLM, polarized light
microscopy, that using the characteristics of birefringence
and extinction is the methodology of choice to look for
asbestos materials. XRD is a good complementary system
but does not give you the morphology of the shape of the
particle. There are problems with XRD, such as masking,
and the inability to detect asbestos at low concentrations.
So we are stuck with the PLM as the best bet.
(SLIDE:)
This is a well known analytical laboratory that
really didn't know what they were doing, but they have a
very good reputation and in all areas are extremely
competent. The bottom line is the false positives and
false negatives and the results considered acceptable for the
purpose. On the samples sent to them we took 50 samples
and you may as well have flipped a coin. In 48 percent of
the time they gave the decisionmaker the correct information.
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1 Th.e culprit is the fact that the technician and
2 the laboratory director were using the phase contract
3 optics for identification of asbestos. So anyone who sees
4 this sli.de should be warned.
5 (SLIDE:)
6 Air sampling. This is very important. Number one,
7 you air sample by pumping air across as. fiTfcer and collecting
8 particulate matter on it and you should know the volume of
9 air that you have pumped across the collecting device, th.e
10 filter, and then you should have a way of identifying what
11 you have caught. Knowing that you can count what you have
12 caught, and knowing the volume of air, you .can get a
13 concentration of air.
14 In the asbestos business th.e optical system is
15 the standardized methodology. Th.is is phase contrast
16 microscopy. That is boosted light microscopy. It lets you
17 see particles a little bit easier th.an you can with a normal
18 microscopy. It is at 45 magnifications, which is pretty
19 good for a light microscope. Right off the bat there are a
20 few problems with that.
21 You are looking for particles, a very important
22 term, particles that are 5 microns in length and have a
23 3 to 1 aspect ratio. The main problem with the system is
24 th.at it doesn't count asbestos fibers. This is the standard
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count asbestos. It counts particles that fit that criteria,
so you will count cellulose, glass, nylon, rayon, carpet
fibers, and clothing fibers. You follow the rules by the
standard method, you will overcount at low concentrations.
One other problem is that you will miss a lot of
the asbestos fibers that are smaller than 5 microns.
Estimates of the ratios of airborne particles longer than
5 microns to shorter than 5 microns may be in the range of
1 to 100 or 1 to 10. It depends how closely you look.
Here again th.e problem is that we know that the smaller
fibers will remain airborne. The larger fibers will fall
out a lot faster. So this microscopy section is skewed in
the direction of large fibers that probably aren't going to
hurt people anyway. That is the other problem.
Medically, "we still don't know what causes asbestos
related diseases, what is th.e exact mechanism, and also what
fiber size population has the most potential for causing a
pathologic effect. It looks like th.e fiber diameter may be
somewhere between a tenth of a micron all the way up to 10
microns. No one is really sure.
The optical microscopy system, it must be remembered
is a highly effective system for its intent. Its intent
was to monitor airborne fiber concentrations in situations
where you knew that there was asbestos in the air. It is a
highly effective system for that, so it is highly effective.
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system in a plant where you are manufacturing asbestos
insulation or where you are bagging asbestos, so you know
what is in the air is probably asbestos, so the particle
you count has some relationship to the problem.
When you start using 'this method for hazard
6 assessment, you get into problems. You are counting other
7 fibers. Number two, you are missing most of what is going
on, and it really can't be used for h.azard assessment.
9 What can be used? There are experiments using
10 this technique and then going further using a PLM trying
11 to get an idea of what in the air is really asbestos.
12 Should you look for th.e PLM after you have counted the
13 fibers? Ballpark half birefringence and -angles of
14 distinction and you can divide your answer in half and
15 come up with the answer. This is nonstandard technique.
16 It is experimental and it can't be relied on for legal
17 purposes.
18 So we are left with TEM and transmission electron
19 microscopy, which is the definitive technique for measuring
20 asbestos. Along with this you can use selected air
21 defraction energy techniques to identify any particle that
22 you are looking at. The trouble there is that there is no
23 technique for doing TEM. In other words, given five
24 laboratories doing transmission electronic microscopy, they
25 are probably doing it with 5 different techniques and you are
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going to get 5 different answers with almost no relationship
to each other.
As a consultant I have the ability to send a
sample to a laboratory that I know damn well will come back
with a zero answer. I know what labs do that. I also
know what labs will give you 2,000 nanograms if you send
them a sample of a blank. Right now I would term the status
of a standardized technique is about the status of a holy
war. There has actually been violence at scientific
meetings when people tried to put their techniques across.
There is something else wrong, too. As physicians
or epidemiologists we really don't know what the results
mean so far as biologic effect. If someone says to me, I
would like to do a TEM, I shudder because what I can give
them with the laboratories that we have and the techniques
that we have, we are pretty confident we are coming up with
the right nanogram level, but no one really knows what that
means.
The linking o-f mass measurements of the amount of
asbestos airborne and biologic effect is tenuous indeed.
Politically, though, if you tell someone, especially an
advocate of some type, that there are 50 nanograms in the
03 i buildina air, I don't know what that means. No competent
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physician can tell you what that means, but the advocates
will tell you what that means, and the lawyers will tell you
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what that means. It is bad news.
What you really have to do is make up in your own
3 mind what you think it means, or what the lawyers may think
4 it means 10 years from now.
The way we do this is usually we do community
6 sampling down on th.e street, outside control sampling,
7 and then building sampling under various conditions. Also,
we do, of course, internal checks, double blind sample
9 labeling, and control techniques using blank samples and
10 loaded samples, to always record what the electron microscope
il is feeling like on the day that we do the measurements,
12 because that means a lot, too: wh.eth.er you have paid your
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13 electric bill or not. You end up with knowing pretty
14 closely what level of asbestos is in your building under
15 different conditions, but once again we are really not sure
16 what these mean unless the levels are up in the 3 or 4
17 hundred nanogram range.
18 One investigator has put in writing — by the way,
19 for any lawyers in th.e audience, it is written, therefore,
20 it can be used in court — that 100 nanograms is a dangerous
2i level. I don't know where in the world that investigator
22 got that information, and I don't know what it means.
3ut, anyway, that is the situation with air
sampling, So, gentlemen, there is no Santa Clause with air
sampling. There are problems with every technique. You have
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1 to understand this — I am not saying don't use these
2 techniques. I am not saying that. All I am begging you
3 to do is to understand the facts, the reality about optical
4 microscopy aiid about transmission microscopy.
5 (SLIDE:)
6 That is a portable air sampler.
7 (SLIDE:)
8 That is a portend radical with a particle that
9 will be counted as asbestos. In essence, that would not
10 be counted because it is sticking out at both ends. Here is
11 some other reality. This is effects of air sampling
12 techniques. It all depends on what is going on. You can
13 go in and get any count you want using optical microscopy,
14 even in an asbestos bagging plant. If you go at 2:00 o'clock
15 in the morning with nothing moving you don't get fiber counts.
16 (SLIDE:)
17 This is counter technique comparing the systems at
18 very low magnification ranges.
••
19 (SLIDE:) Let's talk for a brief moment here as to
20 what we are seeing. Okay, here are some other facts you
j
2i should realize. This is the effect on normal activity,
22 custodial work between dry and wet techniques. The little
23 hatch marks show the drop in fiber concentrations once you
24 start using chemical cleaning agents or wet methods. The
25 one on the right is by standard exposure and we eliminated
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the by standards and eliminated the exposure. It shows that
yes, indeed, asbestos fibers get through barrier systems.
3 These are double barrier systems, polyethylene sheeting under
4 normal operating conditions, and, as you can see, with dry
removal, th.at is on the left, you get very high counts, 1A
6 fibers per CC. Outside the first barrier you are still
7 getting 6, and outside the second barrier, v/hat looks like
normally clean air, it was 2 fibers per CC, and that was done
9 with, a standard optical microscopy. You can multiply those
10 by anywhere between 10 and 100 to get the real fiber counts.
11 Wet methods, you start lower and end up lower.
12 CSLIDE :)
13 Encapsulation. Wh.ere are we seeing the use of
14 encapsulation? Advantages: it controls exposure and
15 usually is the most rapid and economical — usually — under
16 certain conditions. But remember that you are keeping the
17 asbestos th.ere, and if you put a powers aw through
18 encapsulated material you are still going to get a lot of
19 fibers in the air.
20 Weight of the sealant may cause delamination. The
21 biggest problem in the field is not having to do with the
encapsulating agents, they all seem to do something of
benefit and on occasion often they will reactivate
components in the fiber's matrix, and you are engaging without
25 intending to in a removal operation. Delamination, I feel,.
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1 is the thing we see to be the biggest problem where the
2 interface adhesion between the material and the substrate
3 is not sufficient and the encapsulant will cause the material
4 to delaminate and come down in larger lieces than it did
5 before.
6 We feel that you have to keep watching the material,
7 If you leave the asbestos in the building, the encapsulation
8 is not removal. You still have it there. Where is it
9 most appropriate?
10 CSLIDE:)
11 We find that the most appropriate use of this,
12 at least in industry, is wh.ere fiber management is required,
13 and you are dealing with a complex surface. It is not
14 considered to be application wh.ere you can remove. But if
15 you are talking about highly complex surfaces, lagging, a
16 pipe farm, machinery spaces, inaccessible areas, this is
17 where encapsulation really begins to pay off and becomes
18 quite cost-efficient. It sure beats removal.
19 CSLIDE:)
20 This is applying this. I don't think I have
21 anything more to say h.ere on encapsulation.
22 (SLIDE:)
23 This is my famous slide. This shows the weakest
24 link in a respirator program. It also shows the function
25 of a well known contractor. This, believe it or not, was a
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1 removal job. You can see how well draped the customer's
2 shelves were. The worker is shuffling dry asbestos off
3 the floor. This was about 30 percent chrysotile. This is
4 a photograph taken with my lunch box camera. You can do air
5 sampling and photography through a lunch box.
6 The worker is wearing his respirator around his
7 neck. This is what I call the talisman type of avoiding
8 malignancies. You have to remember that here you are
9 dealing with a very weak link in the system. No matter how
10 good the respirator technology or how much money you are
11 dumping on the cost of respirators, you have to remember
12 that the guy won't wear them unless he is motivated to do
13 so. '
14 This is all I have to go through. . I will keep
15 the rest of my comments until the questions.
16 I just found out I am moderating the panel. I
l~ would like to introduce John Arpin. I know his work quite
18 well. If John would step up here and say a few words, I
19 would appreciate it.
20 MR. ARPIN: You put me under a pretty heavy
21 limitation, a few words.
22 Starting on an idea or a proposition that we are
23 confronted with, with the asbestos, is a good deal like
24 starting on a watermelon with no knife. You don't know
25 exactly how to get into the thing or where to start. But
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l I have been asked to speak concerning asbestos control and
2 the techniques of it, and the general thoughts and attitudes
3 of asbestos that are confronting the general public.
4 The control of asbestos removal is one of the
5 things that I have been concerned with for a long time. And
6 I have been asked not to make this look like a sales pitch,
7 but I do find that it is necessary, .to a certain extent,
8 to tell you the type of thing that I have done over the past
9 five years.
10 I was concerned with, of course, the encapsulation,
11 and this was the general thought of the general public,
12 arid then, as one gets into this particular field, you find
•
13 that there is more than one way to look at it. First of
14 all, the people that started into the operation knew
15 absolutely nothing, and that is not intended to be a slur
16 or a damaging remark, because there was no experience.
17 You could not go to a reference library and say, under
18 certain conditions you will follow certain procedures in
19 the control or the encapsulation of asbestos. But it was
20 just plain hard thinking, and that was the only way that
'-1 we had to proceed.
22 So, then, the next thing that we found out is the
23 condition of the material. We go into a cereal:; room and.
24 we find that the ceiling is in excellent shape and from an
25 aesthetic value it looks very, very good, and from a
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l mechanical value it is good, but th.en we find a new term
2 that has come up, and I call them "dog ears," these little
3 pieces of asbestos that are hanging from the ceiling in a
4 state of deterioration. And then again, we find a
5 condition, much like the one that Dr. Sawyer just shoxved,
6 concerning the pipe lagging over on Ellis Island. So you do
7 run through these various extremes.
So what I have actually found that is necessary
9 in order to do a job is, first of all, to equip yourself,
10 and I did in this respect. I developed an encapsulant that
was inorganic in nature, as is asbestos, and the next thing
12 that concerned -me was the removal of asbestos, and why
certain techniques should be closely adhered to, and the
14 medium which they use to make the working of it or with it
safe. And then this resulted in what I term a removal liquid.
And then again, with the pipe lagging, this is a very
17 definite hazardous area, and my experimentation carried me
18 into this , even to the extent of designing various types
19 of equipment th.at are vital for the handling and the safe
handling of pipe lagging.
People don't realize some of the hazards unless
they have been exposed to it. For instance, when there is
a case that took place at an ammunition base in New Jersey
where the removal of a piece, of pipe lagging was in action
.,0 and they cut the binding material that held it in place,
|
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only to find out that when it landed from a position
overhead it was completely filled with this like flaky
3 chrysotile asbestos, and it just filled the entire
4 atmosphere, showered the person over the head, and even
though he was wearing equipment there was evidence of it
6 having penetrated him. So I took this type of thin:g as
7 an absolute need.
8 So then the next thing that concerned me was the
9 disposal of it. It has been very aptly said, and very
10 . realistically said, that man is the only animal, the only
11 animal that has a life today that will consciously or
12 unconsciously foul his own nest, and this is precisely what
13 we are doing from the environmental standpoint. And the
14 way we are disposing of the asbestos, it is required that we
15 put it into a polyethelyne bag, then rebag it and then take
16 it to the disposal area. And now the buldozer comes along
17 and moves this from place to place, and having been in the
18 construction business for a good many years, I have yet to
19 see a gentle buldozer or a buldozer that will pick up the
20 polyethelyne bag loaded with the contaminant and carry it
2i very gently, as a housewife would a baby, and place it in
22 an area where it eventually is to be confined.
23 So these are the type of things that are
24 bothering and this is the type of experimentation that I
25 went into, having been 30 years in research and development,
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1 and unique somewhat, and I don't mean to say this in a
2 bragging manner, but my scope of experience has been very
3 wide, and I was exposed to many things, including asbestos,
4 so I have actually been engaged in it for a period of 4 or 5
years.
6 As I said, I was supposed to speak on the
7 encapsulation and the control technique. Now, the thing
8 that actually horrified me is on one occasion I saw a
9 contractor, a reputable contractor, and please don't think
10 that I am making disparaging remarks or remarks ithat could
11 be construed as being highly critical. I am doing this for
12. the education of people that are concerned. He had what we
13 call an Indian pump. It contains a tank and you pump up
»
14 pressure and squirt the liquid, whether it is an insecticide
15 or fertilizer, to its designated point. He was wetting
16 down the ceiling with this hit or miss proposition, and he
17 was using a surfactant wetting agent, I don't know what type,
18 to wet the ceiling down. It was much like a person cutting
19 down a pillow and shaking it, because there was a general
20 cloud that followed the contact of this water with the
21 asbestos, and he was filling the air to an extraordinary
22 hazardous level.
23 And then, when he had wet this to his satisfaction
24 to where it was dripping in some spots and completely dry
25 in others, then they used an ice chopper to remove the
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1 material. And this is one of the things that is a common
2 practice.
3 And then Dr. Sawyer showed another picture where
4 the man was wearing his talisman around his neck and hoping
5 that this was going to keep the stuff off — a good deal like
6 a good luck medal or charm — and throwing it into a bag.
7 And there were a lot of the solids going in, but the solids
8 we are not concerned with. The solids will fall to the floor
9 and remain there. It is the dust that we are concerned with.
10 That is a hazardous material. That is the part that can be
11 injested into the body's system and somehow or other act to
12 cause cancer.
13 So we are confronted with a very, very unusual
14 situation. The first thing that everybody thinks is,
15 get rid of it, regardless of how, but get rid of it. So
16 down in Florida you could not even mention the word
17 encapsulation because it was a dirty word down there. One
18 particularly articulate politician — and again, that is
19 not a dirty word — apparently was able to convince the
20 members of the school board and the principals, meaning the
2i general public, if you have got something you don't like, and
22 it is in the way, get rid of it. So they pulled it out, and
23 again, I was talking with the experienced people and they
94 said it was a regular sacrifice, from a health standpoint,
25 the way this v/ork was being done .
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Now, the contamination that follows is another
tremendous evil that has to be dealt with. Again, we are
3 almost hopscotching around this entire thing by not looking
4 at the details of the areas where the contamination is found,
the air circulating systems. It is a horrible condition.
I was in one school — and I will not refer to
7 the specific school — and I said, "What are you doing to
8 contain the dust fibers from your air circulating system?"
9 They said, "Well, we have got the filters." I said, "What
10 do you mean, you have the filters?" And they had the
11 conventional glass fiber filters, which are fine for, shall
12 we say, the average sized particle that you can see, but the
13 ones that you can't see, the fact that you can't see them
14 people are inclined to say, well, they don't exist, and
15 they turn their backs on them.
16 But I took a material that I have also developed —
17 again, I don't want this for a sales pitch but it is still
18 vital in my explanation — whereby I treated a couple of
19 these filters — and they had been changing them even up
20 as far as every three months, considering them still an
21 effective piece of equipment — but after having treated
''9 them they were horrified to find out that in less than 3 days
they were showing evidence of needing change, and to show
that they were merely recirculating the dust.
25 So all of these things were confronted with and
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we definitely have to face them and there has to be some
specific action taken, and it should be a tremendously
ethical thing that a person must consider in order to
develop this.
A person would not just go to work and use a
latex paint and say, well, here, this is great stuff, and
we will put it on there. Now, they don't know the effect
of it, they don't know the deterioration rate of it, or the
depth of penetration, because any of these materials — not
any of them but many of these materials — are applied and
they have the action of a bridging agent.
A "bridging agent" is a word that does not
neces-sarily need any explanation, but it does. It covers
the surface, and the surface that is being covered acts
precisely in the same manner as a filter. When you apply
a substance that has a good deal of body to it, the first
part of it that is going to be stopped is that portion which
immediately contacts the surface. And the further it goes,
the vehicle will proceed to solids, and the solids are left
anywhere from an eighth to, in some cases — in very
generous cases — up to a half inch penetration. And the
further it goes, the smaller amount of solids is allowed
to continue to the substrate.
So then this resolves itself down to the next
thing, that in order for this to penetrate or to really do
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a good job, the particle sizes must be considered in the
evaluation of the bonding agent or the penetrant, and the
sealing capabilities of this material.
So that covers pretty well that portion of my
talk. And I would appreciate any questions that may be asked,
and I hope I have some of the answers for you.
And the next thing, of course, is the disposal. Now,
North Carolina has taken a beautiful attitude towards it and
they are doing their level best and encouraging inquiries
concerning how to dispose of this material and how to treat it.
Now, there should be a part per million test that
would evidence that this material when it is treated —
treated and then primarily disposed of — that it would hot
infiltrate the drinking water. Because some of these
particles are so small, I have heard it said, I think it
was Dr. Silocoff stated that some of these fibers, and it
is almost impossible to believe, are one ten thousandths
diameter of a hair. Believe you me, that is getting down
into mighty fine particle sizes. And the ground particles,
such as the sands and clays and so forth, would even allow
the water to carry this into the areas that could penetrate
at many miles away from the original source.
So this pretty well covers the point of discussion
that I had entered into, and I hope I have stimulated a few
questions. Whether I am able to answer them or not entirely,
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l but there are certainly plenty of people to back up. I have
2 got this panel here, so I thank you very much for your
3 indulgence, and hope to hear from you.
4 DR. SAWYER: John, thank you very much.
5 John has given us an overview from his very
6 impressive range of experience. I know of his work, and he
7 has seen a lot. I think he has not only given us an overview
8 here, but I think I heard him give a plea for adequate
9 specifications on asbestos. Any asbestos abatement work,
10 you should have the benefit of adequate specifications for
11 any contractual activity. I think these are the sine qua
12 non of a good asbestos job. You just have to have good
13 specifications and they have to be written in the proper
*
14 fashion. John Wilson, I hope, will make comment on this,
15 with the AWCI specifications that are under consideration
16 right now. I think that is an excellent piece of work.
17 Mr. Arpin also said something that I consider to
18 be very, very important, and that is that removal is not a
19 panacea. There are problems with removal. Removal has
20 the potential of tremendous exposure levels, tremendous
2i contamination levels, and if the conditions are right,
22 tremendous potential for worker exposure. Let us not forget
23 the workers who are doing the work in any abatement
24 procedure. Even under the best conditions, even with
25 adequate respirator protection and protection programs,
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there is a potential in any abatement activity for
2 significant exposure, and this is one of the responsibilities
3' that we have, to consider the health of the worker, not just
4 the building user. I find this to be a common thing.
Everyone is very interested in the building user, and the
responsibility remains to protect the workers involved in
this.
I would like next to introduce Joe Martin who is
9 going to describe — I am delighted that he is here today
10 because of my personal feeling for a tremendous need for
11 more understanding of air sampling and what its limitations
12 are, what its attributes are, and to understand how it can
13 be used in this problem.
14 So, Joe, I will let you take over now.
15 As you can see, we are each giving presentations.
16 we are going to save our questions until after we are
finished. As soon as I see enough people falling asleep
we will have a coffee break.
•»
19 MR. MARTIN: -Thank you. I will try to keep this
20 as brief as I can so we can get to the questions.
21 I am going to try to talk specifically about
encapsulation as opposed to other types of abatement and
23 problems with those.
24 First of all, I am going to be doing some testing
25 in the future at some sites, some field testing. The
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l process as with ASTM is going to take at a minimum about
2 18 months. One of my concerns is what happens in the
3 interim of that. There are still going to have to be
4 decisions made as to what to do and how to do it.
t
5 Once material is sampled and identified and the
6 problem is presented, you do not just leave it there
7 because political and social pressure is going to
8 precipitate some sort of action. The people who are going
9 to make the decisions have to have some good information,
10 some good technical engineering information, so one of
11 my problems is, what happens in the interim while we are
12 waiting on ASTM procedures?
13 I have performed some after the fact testing of
14 sealants as well as opposed to testing them before. This
1
15 was in conjunction with what Jim Hubbard was talking about
16 yesterday. One of the things that was presented was the
17 :'.:; monitoring results of after the encapsulant was placed.
18 Most studies that I have done, we have tested the workmen
19 who were also working in the area after it is a sealed area,
20 and their exposure was not as high as before, but high
21 nonetheless, just due to the activity that they were
22 involved in.
23 One of the problems with that is the communications
24 problems involved. The encapsulant was put on and it was
25 supposedly told, not necessarily by the manufacturer or the
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contractor/ but the implication was that now your problem
is taken care of, and the communication problem that existed
is the fact of how well is it taken care of.
The verbiage was, now your problem is solved, but
the maintenance people go ahead and continue with their
daily activity of wiring new outlets and things like this,
and even though their exposure is at the site, time
weighted averagewise, it was still rather high. It
certainly exceeded the medical monitoring limit of 0.1.
So there are definitely problems in communication
that have to be worked out, and that involves either an
operation maintenance manual in which there are guidelines
so that when people go into an area people have full
knowledge of what they are getting into so they can take
precautions or be informed of the fact that they are going
into that sort of problem. Not only does that keep
communication problems at a minimum, but it also reduces
liability problems.
One•thing I want to talk about is air monitoring
of these things. I have seen a lot of time people, when I
write a set of specifications and needed references as far as
someone's past experience, we demand several things, but one
of those is past air monitoring results as some indication
of what their performance level is.
The air monitoring results that we get are very
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poor in the fact of not their results but the way that they
are presented. You have to keep in mind that the air
monitoring phase contrast was intended for an industrial
setting. The whole standard is based for an industrial
setting. The test mechanism that was used was developed for
an industrial setting. Given that we need to back off and
look at it a second.
You just do not go out and take a filter, put
it in a casette, turn on a punch, come back and take the
filter off and look at it under a microscope and say, this
is what we have. The punch has to be calibrated with a
primary standard traceable back to the Bureau of Standards. .
Those punches have to be checked periodically during the
sample taking because temperature affects that, flow
resistance, if your fiber count is high enough, is going to
change your flow rate, you have to be sure that the sample
is not intentionally being contaminated or cleaned, which
happens often, so that is part of it.
The microscope that you are using has to be
calibrated. The portend radical, the grid type thing in
-1 ;| the slide with the fiber crossing it, that has to be
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- sufficient experience as far as judgment levels, and he has
-4 ! to be checked.
You have to have an internal quality control
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1 program by which you can check the sample to see if it can
2 be statiscally — be determined to be an out layer. In
3 other words, is that sample rejected? Is there too much
4 variability? Does invesitgator "A" come up with a different
5 answer as opposed to investigator "B"? There are tests
6 for that.
7 Not only that, but if you do a sample and you are
8 going to base it on a time weighted average as the OSHA
9 standard is based on, you have to have at a minimum six
10 and one half'sample duration according to the NIOSH. Once
11 you get that and you get your average fiber count, all you
12 get is an average fiber count. You have to report your
13 upper confidence limits, your lower confidence limit, and
14 your coefficient of variation.
15 When you get down to most of the cases that we
16 are involved in, after the fact or ambient level testing,
17 or whatever you want to call it, your coefficient variation
18 is going to be outrageous. It is going to fall apart and
'*
19 you are going to look at the test and indicate that the test
20 is no good.
21 So when you get the air test from the contractor
22 that says, look, we are clean, we didn't find a single
23 fiber — okay, we found one, but calibrated our average fiber
24 count was zero, you need to demand all their quality
25 assurance records, how they reported it, and how long the
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sample duration was and all these other factors. Then you
say, okay, according to this test this is what we found. But
how does that help you to make a decision? It really doesn't,
Let's be honest.
I have gone ahead and contracted out with Jim
Hubbard and done TEM, and as Dr. Sawyer said, there are
problems with the methodology there, but at least you can
count fibers that are less than 5 microns, and at least you
can count asbestos fibers. So you can try to get some sort
of mechanism by which you can get a handle on something to
get some information to make some sort of decision. Which
is about as clear as mud, I know.
So what does that tell us? Well, it tells us that
air monitoring, except for industrial level settings,
according to the OSHA standard or the OSHA methodology, is
really no good for situations that at least I have been
involved with. The test was not intended for that.
I think that that is a topic that needs to be
briefly discussed and brought up, and at least verbalized
as far as its problems from a technical point of view.
As far as testing encapsulants, it is still a very
difficult thing to do as far as testing their performance
levels.
As far as the Battelle study, we have hashed that
out and so forth and so on. My involvement has been after
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l the fact, coming in after someone- has done an
2 encapsulation and try to evaluate how well that encapsulant
3 works. In a lot of situations it was a situation in which
4 the encapsulant should not have even been considered, in my
5 opinion,, primarily due to the fact of the vandalism
6 involved. In most cases it was the cheapest thing to do as
7 opposed to removal, so they opted for that decision, and the
8 level of activity and the degree of vandalism was not
9 alter&d, .- so you still have the same problem and the
10 encapsulant was not good as far as abating the asbestos
11 contamination, just due to the population, not due to the
12 encapsulant.
13 Also, you run into problems as far as what sort of
14 tests do you want to run. You have sheer capacity tests
15 that you can run, adhesion, cohesion, flame spread,humidity,
16 pull off tests, and so forth. All these tests can give you
17 some sort of indication, but you have a problem getting money
18 to do that from people.
!9 What we have tried to do in conjunction with
20 that is if there is to be some degree of vandalism or some
2i degree of disturbance, whether it be maintenance or whatever,
22 is try to simulate some sort of damage. And the results
93 that we have gotten, limited as they are, are very congruent
04 with what Dr. Sawyer's results were, in the fact that your
25 custodial people still have the episodic exposure.
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The information we have is, as I say, still
limited, there is no statiscal analysis on it because the
sample size is not sufficient to do that. We did not have
the funds to do that. So it is an observation. I think
we need to talk .about one, the air monitoring and the
methodology involved with that. I think it is extremely
important that when you see air sample results from an
independent lab or an industrial hygienist, or from a
manufacturer, or from a contractor, or from whoever, that
you understand the problems involved with it, the methodology
involved with it, and when you see those results what they
mean and what questions to ask as far as quality control,
.
quality assurance and qualifications of .the people doing
the work.
DR. SAWYER: I would like to commend Joe for, I
think, a lucid expose of air sampling. You have all now
totally lost confident in it, probably. I think that he has
outlined field testing for us and has brought up the legal
and political realities of having friable asbestos in i.a
building. It kind of doesn't make any difference what is
there so long as it is asbestos and you are probably going
to have to do something about it, either institute a very well
disciplined management system, remove it, encasulate it, or
even enclose it, and those are your choices.
The very distant pool alternative is to let it sit
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1 there without taking any action/ any documented action that
2 can not be attacked legally down the road.
3 I was delighted with his outline of the technical
4 realities of NIOSH-OSHA air sampling technique. The levels
5 of confidence involved when you are dealing with low levels
6 of fibers, and you:, are invited to look at the Beard and
7 Zumwalt reference document available to you through the
8 Government Printing Service, the statements contained
9 therein on the requirements for so many fibers per field,
10 to give you a level of confidence, so your air sampling
11 result will probably approximate what is really suspended in
12 the air. That is a very important fact.
•
13 Number two, always retain that information, as
14 you so well pointed out, that it doesn't have to be asbestos
15 when you count it.
16 So there are some definite.problems with this. I
17 would take issue with you on one point. You said that the
18 air sampling, and I quote you, "Is no good." I think from
19 a technical point of view I would agree with you 100 percent.
20 When you come right down to it, the political or legal effect
21 of air sampling is to establish compliance with existing
22 standards that OSHA has set forth, legally, even though you
23 and I —
24 MR. MARTIN: I was talking from the technical
25 point of view.
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l DR. SAWYER: And Number two, is to intimidate
2 the contractor. I mean this quite sincerely. I think that
3 Joe would agree with me that one of the techniques that you
4 can use to lower the real fiber count, for instance in a
removal job — I am talking about reality, not what we are
measuring but what is really suspended in the air, and what
people are really breathing. That is what we would like to
8 reduce* That level can be reduced by bringing an air
9 sampling device into the room, I don't care if you have a
10 filter in it or not, so long as it makes noise, and you
11 turn it on and the contractors and the workers know that
12 they are being watched.
13 We have documented the effect of that. That is
14 an excellent control technique. We have documented the
15 effect of that.
16 I think his outline of the problems, the reality
17 of the push, the limited orifice device, the calibration of
18 that, the microscope, and most importantly, the person
19 behind the microscope doing the counting, that this is a
20 whole system and there are problems with each and every
21 step along the way..
22 Again, we are saying this system has its benefits,
it has its deficiencies, simply understand what they are
and make your decisions on that basis.
25 Ralph Self I would like to bring up next. Ralph is
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1 an engineer who somehow, I guess as a political punishment,
2 was brought into controlling the State's asbestos control
3 program. I had the true pleasure of working with Ralph for
4 a fairly concentrated period of time in developing the
5 State program for his asbestos abatement program. I have a
6 high degree of respect for his accomplishments, not only
7 his efforts in the State of North Carolina, and I think he
8. can bring to us a very good representation of what is really
9 happening in the field.
10 MR. DORESEY: Could we take a break for about
11 10 minutes? The coffee is set up outside.
.12. DR. SAWYER: I have a quarter after. If we could
13 be back at 25 after, 10 minutes, then we will go to Ralph.
14 (RECESS.)
15 DR. SAWYER: We would like to get started. I
16 have said enough nice things about Ralph previously, so I
17 will skip it now so he can get going here.
18 MR. SELF: As you can all tell from what has been
19 said so far, there are quite a few unresolved questions about
20 the whole asbestos problem, encapsulation, what have you.
21 For any of you that get involved, and some of you
22 may already have in a large scale, in the asbestos program,
23 you need to be aware of the five stages of any controversial
24 program such as this. The first stage, you have a lot of
25 enthusiasm. The second state, you get disillusioned. The
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1 third stage you have panic. The fourth stage is the search
2 for the guilty/ and the fifth state is the punishment of the
3 innocent and the final stage is awards and decorations for
4 the nonparticipants. That is because they had sense enough
5 to get involved.
6 But I don't claim to be an encapsulation expert,
7 and so most of my statements will be general, and I will
8 tell you briefly what we have done in North Carolina and
9 try to bring into that the role that encapsulation has
10 played or has not played, and what it may plan in the future,
11 In our initial efforts with the asbestos problem
12 in North Carolina, we started in full force in February of
13 1979, and when we first started, sealants were more or less
•
14 relegated to the back burner at that time because of some of
15 the lack of a lot of research and a lot of knowledge on it.
16 In early 1979 the Governor of North Carolina
17 appointed an asbestos force to look into this problem in
18 schools and in other public buildings. These task force
19 members came from various department of State Government.
20 There was a representative from the Building Code Division
21 of the Department of Insurance, a representative from the
22 Community College Division, a representative from the State
23 Department of Public Instruction, which was myself, a
24 representative from the Division of Health Services, who is
25 Pat Curran. He is an industrial hygienist. And John
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Emerson from the State Construction Office, and several
others. One was from the Washington Division of the Labor
3 Department.
4 As you know, most of the pressure has been on
school buildings, and naturally, I have had as much concern,
6 probably more, than others on the task force. John Emerson
7 had a lot of concern, being responsible for the State
8 buildings. And Pat Curran, who works with the Division
9 that has responsibility for overall health issues in the
10 State of North Carolina, was very much concerned.
11 So as it ended up, the ones of us with the most
12 concern naturally ended up having to pursue this thing
13 the most rigorously.
14 Now, one big advantage we had was having on this
15 task force Pat Curran who is an industrial hygienist. He
16 worked in asbestos and industrial setting for 10,12 years,
17 so much of the — he was fully familiar with the esoterica
18 that comes out and relates to asbestos, so we missed a lot
19 of the hassles that I think a lot of people normally have
20 with asbestos programs, hassles of picking competent lags
and how to take air samples, and worker protection, and
good work procedures. So this put us way ahead.
23 So when we started out one of the biggest problems
24 we had was in the area of exposure assessments. Just
how to get a handle on what you had to do, how to evaluate
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l an asbestos ceiling and fireproofing, what have you. And,
2 so, we struggled with this a while, and we managed to get a
3 handle on it by prevailing on Dr. Sawyer here, who sent one
4 of his people down to help us evaluate three or four
5 schools in western North Carolina. Later on Dr. Sawyer went
6 with Pat and me to help evaluate a school and look at some
7 of our reports.
8 This is where we first started using the eight
9 factor algorithm, which is by no means a tool that will
10 automatically solve the asbestos problems. However, we
11 found it to be a good point of departure for analysis, an
12 excellent yes-no, indicator, yes, meaning some sort of
13 control measure is advisable, and no, meaning that a
14 maintenance management program could be sufficient maybe
15 for a few years.
16 Several factors in this algorithm will give clues
17 as to whether or not encapsulation could receive consideration
18 For instance, the accessibility factor, high accessibility
19 of asbestos on walls that can be reached, or low ceilings
20 where tall kids can jump and hit it, this automatically
21 rules out encapsulation. Extensive water damage rules out
22 encapsulation. The combination of a lot of water damage
23 along with a deteriorated condition of the ceiling of course
24 rules it out. And the high friability factor gives you a
25 caution flag, as you have heard, about using sealants.
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1 So using this algorithm along with other
2 considerations, such as the type of construction, the
3 substrates to which friable materials are attached, we
4 have used this. .Pat Curran and I have visited I guess around
5 40 some, school districts and maybe evaluated a couple of
6 hundred buildings, more or less, and these reports which
7 we prepared to school boards and others have varying degrees
8 of specificity*
9 If removal is in our opinion the only alternative,
10 and we can pretty well document this, we go ahead and tell
11 the school board or the State. If it is a State building
12 Pat does that. If deferred action with a maintenance
'13 management program is clearly indicated, then we say this.
14 In the not so obvious cases where the assessment
15 scores are in the middle ranges, we left the final abatement
16 selection decision to the building owner and his architect.
17 However, in our initial state in this program, we did not
18 even encourage encapsulation because of the lack of data
19 on the subject. We more or less held back in this area,
20 I guess, waiting and hoping to profit from the mistakes
21 of others.
22 We find more and more, as we look at more and more
23 buildings, that you can't discard any abatement method
24 because there are just thousands of situations that come up,
25 and if removal is the only alternative you look at or
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enclosure or encapsulation, you box yourself in in a hurry.
And as more and more information is coming out on sealants,
3 we are leaning more and more toward the use of some of these
4 sealants in school buildings and other buildings.
Now, some of the things that are coming out these
days which I have concern about — I may be right and I may
be wrong but I feel like I should bring it up — in some
8 instances I think we may be trying to overkill the problem.
9 There is lots of talk about using electron microscopy in
10 field applications, and I am not sure that this is an
11 appropriate way to go. This seems to be overkill to me,
12 and I think you have seen Dr. Sawyer's slides and his
13 discussion on the fiber release test, and he said the other
14 day that some people were shooting at him about it, and
15 that was me, I guess, that he was talking about.
16 The thing that has occurred to me about the fiber
17 release test, which I brought up to Jim, and, of course, is
18 open for discussion, is that before you encapsulate a
19 friable asbestos material, one of the criteria is that it
20 not be accessible, that it not be where it can be damaged.
21 I just have doubts about having to do these kind of tests
on an encapsulated ceiling, certainly if that ceiling —
23 if the choice was properly made to encapsulate to begin with,
24 One of the other things that I have heard pop up
is some architects or engineers, what have you, writing
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l specifications, tend to find out what is the ultimate in the
2 field of asbestos, what is supposedly the ultimate
3 protection or the most conservative thing to do, and then
4 they write it in their specifications, think, well, I am
5 covered. I have gone the ultimate route, such as say
6 specifying aerial respirators for any asbestos job, and say
7 that is it, that is the ultimate protection. Of course,
8 these type of things possibly can cause you more problems
9 than they protect you from.
10 One thing we have done in North Carolina, or a
11 couple of things, toward getting good specifications which
12 you have heard mentioned, is that most of our asbestos
13 protection we encourage, and there have been one or two
14 owners who didn't go along with it, the school board, or what
15 have you, is that an architect or engineer be obtained to
16 write the specifications, manage the project, and handle
17 the administrative things. We think this is the appropriate
18 thing because these people know how buildings are put
19 together; they know what fireproofing is for; they know what
20 has to be put back. So this seems to be a logical approach.
21 The other thing we are trying to get into wide
22 practice is the use of an industrial hygienist to actually
23 monitor the job. These are people that have specific
24 training and knowledge about worker protection in industrial
25 settings, so it seems to us this is the most logical type
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person to have involved in an asbestos removal or
encapsulation project or enclosure, to monitor, take air
samples, and even do some instruction or correction, what
have you, of the contractor on proper worker procedures.
That is all I have.
DR. SAWYER: Ralph presents things in a very
matter of fact fashion. I can tell you that I did witness
his work in North Carolina, and I think a lesson could
9 perhaps be learned from this. I have an extremely high
10 opinion of what happened there. The effectiveness,
11 including the cost-effectiveness and the appropriateness of
12 ; what was done in that State. And I think the thing to be
13 learned when I sat back and tried to figure out what made
14 things click there when they didn't work other places, was
15 that perhaps the combination of an engineer, an industrial
16 hygienist, a high degree of competence in both, the use of
1" a lot of shoe leather and a lot of common sense really pay
18 off in that State.
•*
19 You can take each one of those things and learn a
20 lot from it. I don't think the combination of an engineer
21 and an industrial hygienist was unique; however, I think that
22 they kept the right people out of the problem. One of the
23 worst examples in the nation of a state's function was in a
24 northeastern state where the State Department of Health
25 became involved. It turned out to be a total disaster of
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1 mismanagement, and a terrible record of incorrect bulk
2 sample analysis, because the problem, since it was a
3 medical problem, went to the State Department of Health,
4 and the asbestos analysis, therefore, was done by the
5 State Department of Health Laboratory, where neither
6 equipment nor competence existed. Politically the use of an
7 outside laboratory was blocked.
8 I think that the shoe leather used in this
9 situation is a major factor in the success of the state's
10 program. Ralph got out and travelled, so you had a
11 uniform estimation and evaluation of a number of different
12 sites, and he also said, the other thing he said that I am
13 very happy he brought up, is that each, site was different,
14 so the more uniformity, the more continuous follow up you
15 have by a small group of individuals, probably the much more
16 intelligence will be brought to bear on the program, the
17 learning curve will be higher, and you will get a better job
18 done.
19 I think that he brought out — in his list of
2o things, I did not mention the algorithm or the rating system.
2i I also think that in this state the appropriate use was made
22 of the 8 factor rating system. This is the use that was
23 originally intended. It helped to give you the answer, is
24 abatement action necessary or isn't it? And Ralph said that
25 it helped them — it was an adjunct — it complemented their
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l own common sense, and I think this is where the rating system
2 belongs.
3 He also mentioned something else that I don't think
4 he verbalized as strongly as I would like to right now, and
5 I think he meant to say this. The use of the rating system was
6 to give them a yes-no answer. It was used as a binomial
7 decision tree, should you do something or shouldn't you. It
8 was not used to select the abatement methodology. This is
9 extremely important and widely misunderstood. You don't use
10 the rating system to pick your abatement method. It is true
11 that the higher the score the more likely you are to end up
12 removing, but that is about it. He said it gave him, and I
13 quote, "clues as to what system to go to."
14 For instance, looking at the factors of
15 accessibility, water damage and friability tells you a
16 tremendous amount so far as the appropriateness of using a
17 sealant. There are other factors, cost-effective factors,
18 complexity of surface you want to cover, and so forth, but
19 the main factors to be used as clues or points of discussion
20 are accessibility, water damage, friability.
2i He also brought out some tremendously important
22 ideas here on adequate specifications, appropriate
23 specifications. Hopefully the EPA people here today will
24 bring us up to date on the specification package. Which, I
25 mentioned before, is a very good piece of work.
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1 Ralph brought out a good point, the American
2 tendency to go to high technology to solve a simple problem
3 and end up falling on your face. The answer to worker
4 protection, the answer to abatement programs is not high
technology, it is probably common sense and the selectee
use of high technology when appropriate. Type C respirators,
fancy sealants, high energy system removal methods, probably
can get you into more trouble and defeat the purpose, and I
9 think the comments about the proper use of qualified,
10 knowledgeable architects and hygienists are pearls that he
has given us today. Not bad, Ralph.
12 I would like to introduce David Spinazzolo of
13 Spinazzolo-Nash, Incorporated, as our next speaker.
14 MR. SPINAZZOLO: I have got to confess a certain
15 amount of intimidation here. I am the last guy to speak, I
16 have sat here throughout this entire panel and heard everyone
17 talk about the various problems with contractors and putting
18 things in to intimidate them. I have got the eminent
19 Dr. Sawyer here rating our presentations. I am glad to have
20 this opportunity 'to speak to you, seeing that I am the only
contractor on the panel here, and I am awfully glad to
22 hear people talking in terms of reality.
By way of introduction maybe I can tell you a
little bit about why I am here today. We are a contracting
25 firm that does this type of work. We do both removal and
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encapsulation. As Mr. Arpin says, that is not meant to be a
2 plug, that is a way of giving you background on myself.
3 We have no particular enthusism for remedies per se,
We feel more that you should approach a remedy based on its
proper utilization. I feel somewhat compelled to sort of
carry the contractor's banner here for a second.
When we talk about reality, the reality of doing
8 asbestos work, people have said, and I want to echo here
9 today, that there is a great and tremendous need for good
10 specifications. We have specifications unlike what you see
11 in North Carolina, where they utilize architects and people
12 from the engineering discipline as well as people from the
13 industrial hygiene discipline. We encouter a good many that
14 have simply a hygienist. There are a number of areas in
15 which they are not necessarily well versed.
16 We have observed on several ; projects where a
17 contractor will remove the asbestos under the close
18 supervision of the hygienist and a good job is done and the
19 contractor fireproof s and there is no sign of the hygienist.
20 As to whether that was done according to the current
•ll j| building codes, that remains to be questioned-
;|
•j-2 .'; In writing specifications there seems to be a
-sr.dency for generalization, generalization in the
24 |j respiratory protection, in the protective garments, in the
approach. To give you an example, you can remove pipe
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1 insulation — that would seem to be a fairly simplistic
2 example to use. Pipe insulation is pipe insulation. You
3 can have that in a room like this in normal temperatures,
4 and have it in steam tunnels with temperatures exceeding
100 degrees Farenheit. If the specification says "in
6 accordance with OSHA with respect to the air fiber counts,"
7 you can have a man going in there wearing a half mask
respirator. Atention needs to be paid to the attendant
9 OSHA requirements.
10 We have specifications that we are working under
11 where a requirement is made that a'man wear a suit and he
12 wear complete full cotton coveralls underneath. Down in
13 the South it gets right hot, and these guys are going in
14 there and the temperatures are getting up there, there is no
15 ventilation, and the man is suffering terribly.
16 We have also seen specifications where you have
17 asbestos that is actually an exterior application, it is
18 outside. A barrier is needed to be constructed around it
'•
19 and the specification as written requires a rough carpenter
20 | frame with polyethylene,because someone was told that if
21 you have a sheet of polyethylene_ryo-u are protected.
Unfortunately, this project is located on the Atlantic
Ocean and the winds roaring off the dunes are tremendous.
There is no proper protection there.
25 My point is that more attention needs to be given
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l to the specifications.
2 The owner — I think he 1..^ serves a disservice to
3 himself and to his employees by resorting to the industrial
o
4 hygienist as a panacea for the problems. He can't hire
5 one and say, you have the ball/ you take care of it. He
6 cannot go out and simply hire an engineer, either, and
7 expect that that engineer or that architect, particularly
8 an architect, is going to necessarily be well versed in air
9 monitoring. This brings me into a little bit more of, I
10 think, maybe the purpose of why I am speaking today, and
11 that is on the techniques or the applications that contractors
12 are involved in -.and the problems that go with that.
13 Our firm started out as a paint contracting firm.
14 That was the initial thrust of our operation. We got
15 involved in asbestos, we got involved initially in a way
16 of encapsulation. The tie-in is fairly obvious. Subsequent
17 to that we then got involved in removal. We had a little
18 bit of advantage in encapsulation in the sense that we had
19 individuals that were familiar with spray equipment and
20 spray techniques.
2i But there is another problem. The problem is
22 inherent in the construction trade. You hire a man who has
23 been spray painting for 20, 25 years. He has sprayed
24 Epoxies, all kinds of special coatings. He disdains the
25 use of a respirator. He doesn't see the purpose of it.
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l The general terms or phrases we hear are, it hasn't bothered
2 me all this time, I am still alive, I don't see why I need
3 to wear it now.
4 There is an inclination not to use the equipment
5 or the suit. When you couple that with a specification
6 that requires an unreasonable addition of garments underneath
7 that suit, that serves to confirm his desire not to want to
8 follow specifications. This creates a little bit of a
9 problem in the initial approach bo asbestos abatement or
10 asbestos encapsulation, the idea of making the workers
11 understand that he has to adhere to at least the state of
12 the art in terms of personal protection.
13 We have observed, and this goes back a little bit
14 to the specifications-here, that some owners in states and
15 different places have attempted to take a hand in this.
16 They will require a training session or something like this.
17 I would submit to you all that a 20 minute film strip shown
18 one day to workers does not accomplish that end. If you
19 want a man to understand, a man in the field who is working
20 in the trade day in and day out, to understand what you are
2i talking about in terms of personal protection and why it is a
22 problem, you have to invest more than 20 minutes.
03 Maybe that is not necessarily the responsibility
24 of the owner, but if you are going to be involved or
25 concerned with trying to get qualified — I would say
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responsible contractors, responsible people, then you have
to have an idea that they are going to take the time to
institute a training program to make their men and their
women, whoever is working on the project, understand the
dangers that are ahead of them there.. We as contractors
have that legal responsibility.
If I have learned anything in these types of
things, listening to lawyers talk, and impressing on me
what our liabilities are, we have to make them understand
what they are faced with. You can't send a man in and
say, go spray that ceiling ana be done with it.
We also have a bit of a problem in augmenting or
adding to the number of skilled technicians. I know most
of you all have probably observed the painting of a wall,
the painting of a ceiling. Probably most of you have done
it yourselves. When you get involved with spray equipment,
the airless equipment, the conventional equipment, there is
more there than might meet the eye. For us to hire a man
off the street and throw him into an environment, give him
airless spray equipment and tell him to go spray a wall is
i
21 j ludicrous, for a couple of reasons.
A good many of the jobs, particularly the ones
that require a bridging type of encapsulant, are generally
24
cosmetic in nature and you don't achieve a workmanlike
performance when you don't know how to use the equipment.
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l The way that surface looks at the end is directly traceable
2 back to the spray techniques.
3 Most states in the country have apprenticeship
4 programs that take anywhere from 2 to 4 years to train men
5 and women in how to apply the paint. You take a normal
6 airless equipment, that is a dangerous piece of equipment.
7 The pressure that is involved in that piece of equipment/
8 where the man pulls the trigger and inadvertently he can
9 hurt himself very badly. This is important. If a man
10 encounters when spraying thick bridging materials,
H encounters a problem, the push won't pump it. His natural
12 inclination is to thin it. Once he thins it, what does he
•
13 do to coverage.
14 The idea of using encapsulation is to have or
15 utilize whatever criteria that is available, and the only
16 criteria available that I am aware of is what is done by
17 Mr. Mirick at Battelle. That is not an endorsement of the
18 products. It is for all intents and purposes'".the only
19 guideline that owners would have available to them.
20 If that material is tested at a particular
2i thickness and you have people in the field that are thinning
22 the material because they don't know how to make their push
23 work and make it go through, y:v. ? re not getting 20 to 25
04 MILS. There is liability there, for me the contractor and
25 for the owner.
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l The whole idea of coverage is a problem unto
2 itself. I think all firms that deal with encapsulation
3 encounter this problem, be it a painting firm or any other
4 type of firm. A painting firm has to deal with the problem
5 that when we paint, color is our index of coverage.
6 Unfortunately, there are a number of paint contractors
7 around who have been known to skip by and alleviate one
8 of the coats. The job may call for three coats of paint
9 and they get by wd/th two. They are using color there
10 strictly as the index. In encapsulation you can't. First
11 off, if you are going to use color, you are talking about
12 penetration as a requirement.
13 Let's talk about the idea of these penetrant
14 encapsulants. You want the material to penetrate. Most
15 penetrants that we have used we have found to be a very
16 nasty material to have to work with. They penetrate ungodly.
17 We have put men in two suits and had the penetrant go right
18 on through.. A guy goes home and has to explain to his wife
19 why he is blue today and yellow tomorrow. That color is
20 hard to get off. It is not like paint where you take a
21 thinner and remove.the paint. So this is a little bit of a
22 problem.
23 The natural inclination is to stand back away
24 from it. You are going to stand back as far as you can,
25 keep that gun out of your eyes, keep it away from you.
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1 You will get a mist coat, but you don't have penetration and
2 you certainly don't have the thickness required. So it is
3 important to pay attention to that.
4 This is something I don't think necessarily that
5 the industrial hygienist, who is concerned with the air
6 sampling techniques, is necessarily taking a look at. We
7 have observed in projects where encapsulation had been chosen
8 and where it has failed, probably th.e biggest reason for
9 that failure is that encapsulation was the inappropriate
10 remedy to begin with.
11 We have not observed too much in the way of
12 encapsulation failing because of a material defect itself.
13 I say that and want to add th.e caveat that obviously with
14 only several years of experience it is awfully hard to get
15 any sort of longevity in assessment here. At least at
16 this point the problem seems to be more with the selection
17 of the remedy, and I would strongly endorse Dr. Sawyer's
18 comments about the use of the algorithm. We encounter people
19 using the algorithm to determine what to do. If it is
20 below a certain level they will do nothing. If it is one
21 point above, it is time to remove, irrespective of any other
22 consequences or variables that may enter the picture.
23 We have also observed a little bit of a problem,
24 we haven't detected that it has created a failure yet, but it
25 has the potential for it, and that is in the curing of the
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, product. They are all water based. There is no air movement,
2 the room is sealed. For a water base material to cure the
o water has to leave the product. Those of you that may have
4 experience with spray insulation will observe that those
products fail nine times out of ten because the room has
been closed up. The winter time is a typical example.
People don't want to be cold, so they shut up the room.
They put in a lot of heat. That doesn't move the water out,
9 it adds humidity.
10 I think there will be a problem with encapsulation
n unless ventilation techniques are utilized to increase air
,2 movement. If for no other reason, you are going to get a
13 more expensive job because it takes longer for that coating
%
14 to dry. You don't put on 25 MILS of coating in one pass,
one coat. It takes two coats. The longer you are in that
16 room, the longer the place is tied down, the' more
1? expensive it is for the owner and the contractor. So it is
18 inportant to address those issues.
That basically is, I think, the sum of what I
9Q would have to say about encapsulation. I think it is awfully
.,, difficult to stand up here and describe the process in any
99 sort of lucid detail. We have had a hard time trying to
explain it to people in the engineering and architectural
professions without actually taking them out and letting
them have a hands on experience, and I think sometimes
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1 that is a little bit of a problem in the asbestos abatement
2 field right now.
3 There is a lot of specification writing and a
4 lot of comments and discourse on the subject without
5 actually going into the field and finding out what the
6 realities of doing the work are. I think from our own
7 experience we can in all candor say that what we thought
8 asbestos removal would be and what it is are 180 '.degrees
9 apart. There is no such thing that we have been able to
10 observe as a standard asbestos job. There is no such
11 thing as a standard cost.
12 I hear an awful lot of people and various
13 authorities quoting to owners and quoting to people,
14 we should be able to get a removal project done for "X"
15 dollars a square foot, or encapsulation for "X" dollars a
16 square foot. That is tantamount to me telling you that the
17 Navy can have a ship built for "X" dollars a cubic foot.
18 We have too many variables involved, variables that are
19 not necessarily the norm for construction projects that
20 we need to take into consideration and until the people
!
writing the specifications and doing the testing and
22 writing the regulations for these things basically all get
involved in the field approach, then we are going to
continue to have problems with inconsistencies and a
25 problem in getting the most advantageous approach to the
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1 problem. Thank you.
2 DR. SAWYER: Well, David, you get A+ for that.
3 I think that is — outstanding is the only word for that
4 presentation. Perhaps some paranoid feelings were generated
5 during the discussion, but I can assure you that we are —
6 I guess when we get up and talk about this, we forget to
7 say that we are also talking about the contractors. I think
8 I have made comments during this about worker protection and
9 contractor performance.
10 I am running through the presentation and I find
11 a lot to make comment on. I think that the comments that
12 he made about specification adequacy are excellent. This,
•
13 as I mentioned before, is an essential component of any
14 asbestos abatement project, that is knowledgeable, well
15 written, clear specifications that are not only in
lg existence on paper, but will be enforced by a check of the
17 work function. There is no substitute for this.
18 There is also no substitute for continuing
19 communication during these jobs. Again, it was so well
20 pointed out, it has tremendous variability. Each one is
2i different. You have heard this time and time again. j
22 You must set up a system, and not only of good '
23 specifications, but to provide a continuing dialogue between :
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1 until it is finished, and then acceptance thereafter.
2 One other point. We keep talking about the use
3 of industrial hygienists, on jobs for air sampling. I
4 feel that this should not be the function of the contractor.
I think that the purchaser of services should provide air
6 sampling. I don't think that the contract, excepting your
7 firm, of course, should be entrusted with monitoring what is
happening on the job site. Always remember there are two
9 steps to asbestos air sampling. One is the sample
10 collection and the other is the counting of the fibers on that
11 specimen, on that filter „ If you get an independent
12 industrial hygienist or some other knowledgeable individual
13 to come into a job site and they know what they are doing,
14 and you put in the specifications wh.at volume of sample you
15 want, where you want it taken, and how you want it taken,
16 you have got a fairly good idea of what happened on that job
17 site when you get the sample back.
18 If you would let the contractor do the sampling —
19 I.showed slides, and again, everything I am saying up here
20 I can..document. I showed slides of the effect of the air
sampling technique. I can get a zero count in any situation
22 in the world, because I know how to do it. And the punch
will be working and everything else. You can show me the
worst asbestos job in the world, I will get a zero count,
25 because I know how to do it. So watch out, the person doing
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l the sampling is critical. The person doing the counting is
2 a little bit safer.
3 Usually an industrial hygienist or a laboratory
4 that has certification for such counting — not for
analysis, but certification for counting asbestos samples
from the American Industrial Hygienists Association, and
participates in their PAT Program, now that counting, you
are fairly sure of getting a good count.
9 It is the sampling. Don't be ambiguous in your
10 specifications. Bring in your own people.
11 It was alluded here to the general problem of
12 church and state. Generally speaking, you must begin to
13 appreciate the legal implications and the contractual
14 implications of what goes on beyond that barrier in the
15 work area versus what goes on outside the barrier. A good
16 way to think of it is that the contractor is generally
17 responsible by OSHA regulations on inside the work area
18 behind your barriers. It is the building owner's worry
19 what effect that will have on what goes on outside the
20 barrier. There is a lot of confusion in this area, and I
21 think it could be the subject of a whole day long seminar
22 as to whose responsibility is what.
I talked about specifications. I would like to
bring in another thing. The better the specifications, the
25 more knowledge in that specification, the better the
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contractor is who is going to get the bid.
One of the big problems is that a competent
3 contractor who knows asbestos abatement work, who knows
4 worker protection, who is interested in doing a good job,
will be low balled on a bid by the guy that is going to cut
6 corners, doesn't know what he is getting into, and has
7 absolutely no work protection program. And the only reason
this, is permitted is the bid specs. So the inferior,
9 incompetent, non-caring, .- and, in some cases, criminal
10 contractor, can walk in when the field is wide open, when
11 the bid specs are lousy, and can put that low bid and get
12 away with it, and a lot of municipalities, a lot of school
13 systems, are locked into an obligatory low bid system.
%
14 The only counter to this is get better and better
15 specifications.
16 I think the question brought up here again,
17 perhaps the subject of a whole other talk, is the problem
18 of heat stress in asbestos abatement work. The problems of
19 fluid replacement, of thermal balance, of heat loss in a
20 worker, so totally compromised by what we are advising for
2i asbestos protection.
22 The most effective technique in the nonacclimated
23 worker, number one, is acclimation, of course, but the most
24 efffective technique is dumping a lot of water in him. Of
25 course, on an asbestos site there is no eating or drinking,
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It is tough to drink through a respirator.
You used the words "protective garments." There
is no such thing as a protective garment. An asbestos
worker can work naked, except for the respirator. The rest
is not protective clothing. It is clothing. If it is a
cold site, you can put on a lot of clothes; on a hot site
you can take the clothing off. Remember, human comfort
function is a function of temperature, humidity and radiant
heat, those three factors. If you have a job in Southern
Florida in August, where you have applyethyiene barrier up
and the sunlight coming through it, and you are dealing with
98 percent humidity in the area and 110 degrees temperature,
you have a signficant. threat of heat stress, heat stroke,
total collapse of the worker.
Remember that. You must understand a little
bit about thermal stress, heat stress and the problems that
are incurred in protecting a worker against inhalation of
the asbestos. There are ways out of it, decontamination of
worker and load him with fluid, or use of respirators.
There are a lot of tricks you can use to counteract this
problem.
You brought up a good question there, Education.
Comments made on worker education are well taken and they
«
are excellent. There is a motivational film that will be
available through OSHA and it is a motivational film, and
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1 it is not the end of all attempts at education. His comments
2 were excellent. You have to keep educating the worker,
3 the talisman effect of wearing the respirator around the
4 neck, failure of motivation, a failure of supervision, a
5 failure of protection of the worker. The competent contractor
6 will require it because it means less legal problems to him
7 down the road, but know the rules and understand not only
8 what is there but what isn't there. The Grandfather Clause
9 to tell a contractor that you have to follow — how does it
10 go, Fed, state and local regulations, doesn't fly1with
11 asbestos work if you really want to see the worker protected
12 or, indeed, if you want to see the level of contamination
13 low in the work area, which really counts if you want to
14 keep the rest of the building clean.
15 Competence and workmanship I feel are tightly
16 linked to the quality of the specification. The better the
17 specification, the better the contractor, the better the
18 job. The level of expertise is critical, and it is tough
19 to go out and ask a contractor, are you an expert in this?
20 I don't know a single one that is going to say, no.
2i Remedy selection, very good comments there, too.
22 The rating system is not meant to pick the selection. :
93 -I would like to end my comments with two sea
24 stories about sealants. One is called the flack vest
25 effect. This was a sealant that was selectee because of its
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l high impermiability and the fact that the manufacturer of
2 this indeed gave the purchaser of services a block of
3 fibrous glass that you could have rolled a tank over it
4 and it wouldn't have cracked, and th.is was indeed installed
in a school gymnasium. This again is documented with
pictures and so forth.
What happend was that the asbestos fallout ceased,
even taking a powersaw through this material gave out very
9 few fibers. The stuff was absolutely fantastic. It
10 formed a truly impermiable hard surface and there was no
more asbestos dispersal from the material. The one problem
12 was that the density was up around 20 pounds per cubic
13 foot, the material delaminated, and th.e Junior High School
14 students over the next three months were treated to 2 by 3
15 foot sections, each one weighing about 20 pounds, falling
16 off the ceiling and hitting them in th.e head. This is an
17 example, I think, of not thinking th.e whole problem through.
18 The asbestos problem, however, was solved completely.
19 The other is one I refer to as the pizza effect.
20 That took place in a New Jersey school, again with — I
2i don't know why they ever selected a sealant encapsulation,
22 just like on the other problem — removal would have been
much more desirable in both cases, but somehow they were
sold on encapsulating agents. What happend in this situation
was that this was a bridging sealant that was applied, water
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based, to a material that had a lot of clays in it, most of
which had not been totally inactivated. As soon as this
3 material hit the friable material, the water reactivated
4 all of the clays, the cohesiveness of the entire material
began to decrease, and it delaminated in a perfect sheet right
along the concrete Surface of the corridor. This happened
about 20 minutes after the encapsulation job was done, and
the two encapsulating workers were down at the end of the
9 corridor.
10 I was there myself looking at this, wondering
i
v/hy the heck they were encapsulating and the entire corridor
19 delaminated and settled at one end of the corridor and
13 began walking towards the workers, It was like the blot that
14 ate Newark, and it soon draped itself around the two
15 workers who are busy spraying. The ceiling was totally clear
16 of all fibers when this occurred, although it was not
planned.
18 I think these two sea stories give you an idea of
ig the trouble -you can get into with improper remedy situation.
We had a question and answer period. I know we
have probably, confused all of you.
.„ VOICE: Why do you call it pizza?
DR. SAWYER: It looked like pizza. It looked
like a huge pizza coming off the ceiling.
VOICE: I have a basic question. It goes back to
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1 the original statement. I was wondering why you took a
2 photograph from your lunch box when you had the slide up
3 there.
4 DR. SAWYER: This was a contractor that got the
5 job with inadequate specifications, was essentially doing
6 a dry removal in the place, and what we did, we had heard a
7 lot of stories from workers in my clinic, horror stories
8 about the lack of respiratory protection, the lack of
9 decontamination. We had heard a lot of stories about this
10 contractor and his lack of clean up, the vanishing asbestos
H also happened. He made asbestos vanish. No one knows where
12 his trucks went. He was violating OSHA regulations. He
13 was exposing workers. I was interested in getting not
14 evidence against him, but I was interested if a contractor
15 did this, then what kind of fiber levels? What was really
16 happening on his job site? For some strange reason, he was
YJ not willing to let me come in and take air samples.
18 VOICE: What was the result of that flagrant
•»
19 violation that you witnessed?
20 DR. SAWYER: The result of it? I think the
.>l worker was exposed and I learned something from it.
22 VOICE: That brings me to my point. I am a young
23 9UY and listening to a lot of credible people in this room,
94 and I listened to presentations today that were very well
95 stated, but basically it has no impact. For example, if you
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l basically do one of these jobs and you are basically
2 violating those situations, and I have seen not 100,000
3 feet, I have seen millions of square feet done without any
4 type of respiratory protection, where is OSHA? I have been
here for two days and I haven't seen anybody scare .any of
these contractors.
The people here are very concerned. My opinion is
that the people here are here because they care. The people
9 that are out there making all the money are not the ones
10 that are here.
11 (Applause.)
12 VThat are you going to do about it? If I rip out
13 100,000 square feet, what is anybody going to do? I don't
14 see OSHA here. What are you going to do, slap my wrist with
15 a $5,000 fine? I leave that on the breakfast table.
16 It is upsetting me as a young man. I see a lot
17 of old timers here, people that have been in business longer
18 than I have been alive. I see them looking at this and
19 smiling to one another once in a while, basically knowing
20 that they are going to make a lot of money.
2i Ralph, you gave a good presentation and you said
22 basically, equipment will cause more problems or extensive
23 technological equipment, air purifying systems, will cause
94 more problems than they will help. I don't know what
problems they will cause besides the expenditure of money.
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I don't know what business I can get into to make more money
with less equipment than this business.
3 I am in favor of tight specifications. I was
4 trained to do it by the book, but it doesn't mean a damn.
People are going to be bidding against me on these public
contracts that aren't going to follow those specifications,
and no one is going to do a damn thing about it. And that
is the way I look at it.
9 In the case for the high technological aspects of
10 it and the abatement of that — I was studying economics in
11 college and th.ey were talking about economic displacement,
12 relocation and I was never in favor of pulling steel out of
13 an oven by hand when you can have a robot do it. I believe
14 high technology is the answer. I believe the problems with
15 the asbestos can be solved by using the proper equipment,
16 and for no other reason th.an to basically stop these
17 fly-by-night operations, people going after the contracts
18 and going to their local rental agency and renting a spray
19 gund and buying plastic and being qualified to do this type
20 of work.
21 I believe anybody worth their salt should have to
99 invest $50,000 to $100,000 in equipment to touch an
23 asbestos ceiling. That is an upsetting factor there.
24 DR. SAWYER: You have brought up some problems and
-° I don't think it is incompatible with what we have said.
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1 I think we are in total agreement.
2 To answer your original question, what are we trying
3 to do about it, there are two ways to go about this — this
4 could be the subject of another seminar called "The So-What
Seminar,"—two things, one is that the building purchaser
of services, the building owner, take upon himself the
worker protection. That is not going to work.
VOICE: Never happen.
9 DR. SAWYER: The second is that OSHA regulations
10 are augmented and totaly enforced on a job site. And that
is a problem. All I can say is that that slide that you saw
12 today and 10 others where I documented what was going on on
13 job sites, were all presented.repeatedly to the Department
14 of Labor and to OSHA, and all I can say to you is, hey,
15 I agree with you. I am tired, because I got beaten.
16 VOICE: Maybe that should be addressed. Maybe by
17 Ed Klein or some of the people involved in the EPA..
18 When it comes down to th.e gentlemen sitting in
19 the room, I care about them as individuals. I care about
20 rny children and their children. This gentleman says it
2i doesn't matter and you can treat ceilings and not go through
22 the requirements. People that work in my company are not
only workers, but they are friends, and I care about them.
I care also about the children that will be working and
living within that facility. I have called jobs to OSHA.
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I have called EPA, and I can say that I haven't had one job
where they have dome down and shut anybody down or slapped
them with any degree of a substantial fine.
DR. SAWYER: Would you agree that adequate specs
are essential, not to get the job done, from your point of
view, for you to compete effectively in a cost—effective
manner, you have got to have adequate bid specs?
VOICE: Yes. If they say in compliance with
EPA's standards, they say we have below 2 fibers per cubic
CC in the school. We don't have a problem, but we want the
asbestos contained. I presented my bid going through all
the proper steps and using the proper equipment and I have a
*
painting contractor bidding against me, and basically this
gentleman is going in at half the cost of my materials
and telling the school, you don't have a problem.
DR. SAWYER: When I speak of adequate specifications
and when this gentleman speaks of adequate specifications,
we are not speaking of specifications that say to comply
to EPA and OSHA regulations only. They don't work. They
are inadequate. I hope that the gentleman from EPA will
bring to light today the AWCI specification package, which
I think should be incorporated into every asbestos removal
job. They do include ~;??- ^^d OSHA regulations, plus
approximately 22 other specification items that make the
bidding equal to the competent contractors and keep out
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the bums .
VOICE: If they want to spray with latex paint,
that is their business, but provide the specification that
this is a preparatory procedure that you have to go through
5 in order to treat or do anything.
6 DR. SAWYER: Perhaps the audience doesn't
appreciate it. I mentioned an OSHA regulation, even if
enforced, which is a whole other question — even if
enforced, OSHA regulations do not contain a requirement for
worker education and they do not contain requirements for
decontaminating the worker. If you have any idea of an
asbestos removal job, the worker becomes totally
contaminated. If you apply OSHA regulations, he doesn't
have to shower. You do not have to educate him, according
14
to OSHA regs. So there are holes in the regulations,
10
,. there is an intense ongoing program. All I can say to you
ID
is that there is an ongoing program that has been in effect
for about two years where we have tried to develop good
lo
procedures, good specifications, and we have been trying to
work with OSHA. And I am a realist. I am not in an ivory
tower.
99 VOICE: I have looked at some of these removal
jobs, I seal the drums, dispose of the drums, and it costs
$50, including handling costs. There has never been anybody
0. there to count my drums. I am sure that people beating me
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l out on public contracts — I am disgusted. Here you have
2 a quality contract, I feel my integrity is intact, basically
3 bidding against people —
4 DR. SAWYER: You can't bid against them.
5 VOICE: At the dump site nobody is there to count
6 the drums as they come off the truck. I can tell them
7 anything I want to tell them. That seems to be the case.
g DR. SAWYER: We are moving into an area where you
9 and I could spend hours telling horror stories. The fact
10 is we are trying to use the mechanism available of
11 interagency communications. We have presented evidence
12 adhering to it.
13 . VOICE: The difference is I paid to come here.
14 I don't think this panel or these EPA officials, they are
15 getting paid to come here and if I am going to continue to
16 PaY to come to these sessions I want to see something that
17 is going to basically aid the industry.
18 DR. SAWYER: I wish, you had been present on
19 July 5th of last year when we had a big fight with OSHA
20 over th.ese problems.
2i VOICE: It is not necessarily me. I am a peon
22 l in this field.
23 MR. SPINAZZOLO: There are options available. I
94 think it is a fallacy to presume that OSHA is the only
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enforcing agency around. I say this because I am near the
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Newport News Shipyard, and I read daily about litigation and
out of court settlements, half a million dollars to the family,
negligence of the owner, negligence of the architect. I
know recently in Atlanta, where I too paid to go to a
conference to find out what is the latest in the state of
the art, a number of attorneys talking on the subject of
suing,of the litigation involved.
On the other hand, you have got the press, and
as you look in different areas of the country, for instance
in South Carolina, in Greenville, the press has done a —
I hate to say an outstanding job, but they certainly
publicized what is going on and problems that may be
surfacing, and if an owner is aware that he has a group
*
of contractors bidding on"a project that have had history
of problems of worker protection and contamination of
outside environments, and he goes ahead and hires them for
a project, I would think he would stand a potential of
negligence in that action.
DR. SAWYER: You run up a hell of a question.
There is no single answer. You are talking about the use
of the press, legal action, the threat of OSHA enforcement,
although it probably is — well, I will stop there.
Let's move to other areas of questioning.
VOICE: To carry the banner of the contractors a
little further, I guess I have one statement first. You
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made mention to a competent architect and a competent
industrial hygienist.
DR. SAWYER: Knowledgeable about asbestos
abatement procedures.
VOICE: It does not necessarily, when someone
retains an environmental consulting firm, that does not
mean that on your project you are paying $38 an hour -or
whatever, that you are actually, in fact, getting a certified
industrial hygienist. We had a case whereby we paid a great
deal of money to find out that we had to help the guy put
the microscope together and take the samples. He was not
an industrial hygienist. He worked for an environmental
consulting company to come out and take the samples.
DR. SAWYER: Was he American Industrial Hygiene
certified for asbestos?
VOICE: He was not even an industrial hygienist.
DR. SWAYER: Then that is a mistake on the specs.
VOICE: There were no specs. For every competent
contractor I think there are probably incompetent people in
the industrial hygienist field, too.
The other thing is maybe people should get bidder
prequalified prior to bidding.
DR. SAWYER: That is tough. That is like the
syphilis cards in Italy that the Army tried to punch once a
week for the girls. It is the same concept. The girl is
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1 clean. The prostitute doesn't have venereal disease this
2 week. You can't qualify a contractor. What happens the
3 next week?
To give you an example, there is a contractor we
refer to in our business as Atilla the Contractor. He has
had criminal charges brought against him for exposing people
to asbestos. A lot of the work we did helped the Attorney
General do this to the contractor. Yet with adequate
9 specs that are reinforced and with a good clerk of the
10 works, this contractor qualified as a competent asbestos
11 contractor and could have passed with flying colors. ^He
12 had the,equipment, the knowhow, and everything else, but he
13 didn't have to do these things'. So qualifying or licensing
14 a contractor is a good idea, but there are definite problems
15 with it.
16 VOICE: At least it is a step forward.
17 DR. SAWYER: It is, but his behavior on a given
18 job is what really counts.
19 VOICE: Everybody refers to a management system,
20 or a deferred action management system if you do
21 encapsulation, but yet it is hard to find, and I have had
22 a number of owners that are interested in that say what
23 exactly is in the management system. We can tell him you are
24 supposed to train your workers, what guidance documents have
come out to aid an owner, an architect, an engineer, to
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establish a good management system other than —
9 DR. SAWYER: There isn't one, but we are working
3 on it.
MR. DORSEY: The idea of a management system and
the important points are detailed in the identification
notification rule package. If you. get a copy of that,
particularly the preamble, it is a definition developed
along with the education group recently. In the guidance
document we say "deferred action." We decided a
t7
management system entails a number of items and not just
deferred action. There is no guidance available for what
to do, but there are details in that rule package telling
you what to do.
lo
Is a Federal official trying to do something
about the problem? I would like to step back and address
your concerns.
ID
We are dealing in a very, very complex political
situation. I want to give you a little background, because
lo
I think some of you don't have it. We are working with
iy
numerous acts and pieces of legislation, and Congress in
writing these Acts did not envision this type of problem,
09 so many of the laws and regulations being developed are
somewhat limited because the Acts are not written for this
type of problem.
9. OSHA, many times, you are not dealing•• with a
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1 national OSHA. You are dealing with a state OSHA, because
2 under the OSHA Act, a state can assume primacy for a program.
3 That means if you have a problem with OSHA, let me give you
4 a suggestion. Find out the person either in the Statehouse
5 to talk to or the national contact.
6 Writing letters — if you are really concerned
about this and you have a problem, you cannot get an
Inspector on a job, or you know of people that are violating
regulations, write the letters to the important people.
Believe me, that will have more effect than anything else.
The second point, EPA, OSHA, the state and
19 national level, we do not have the resources. It is
,„ impossible to inspect every job site. It is also impossible
lo
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14 •*
OSHA could visit every site. I wish that when you.called
lo
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the travel money. We don't have the people to do that.
Budgets are being cut.
lo
19
25
The reason that you are paying me to be here is
I want to know what are the problems, what can I do to
improve the situation. We are to provide technical
assistance. If we can improve the political situation, we
will do that.
In various states, I know the state in which you
are operating, that state does not have a strong school
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program. We have worked for th.e last two and a half years
9 to get a good person there to work with us.
3 The specifications that were developed, the
4 Chapter 9, the guidance document, Dr. Sawyer sweated many
days and evenings putting that together. That was the
6 first shot.
_ We are working with ASTM to improve those specs.
Give us your feedback. Tell us how we can improve the
9 program. Nobody has the authority to go out and be the
10 father for you on any jobs. Th.e biggest problem is
education. Let the people letting the contracts know what
,9 they should do, what should be involved in a good contract.
13 We are really trying to do that.
14 VOICE: I agree, but I feel that some type of
.,. spot checking arrangement would do a lot of good — I know
10
]fi you won't be on the jobs. Nobody here needs you to tell
them that, But if you were to do it randomly it would have
8 a hell of an effect in keeping people aware that if it
happens, there is a possibility.
MR. DORSEY: In many states that happens.
VOICE: I don't know why the mentality in this
.„ country, the burden is placed on me having to prove that
something is going to kill me. You prove that something
is not going to kill me before you issue it. That is
going to change. I hope my generation and subsequent
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generations put the burden on the government to do that.
DR. SAWYER: We are trying.
VOICE: Philip Ruseg, Pentagon Plastics.
o
I would like to address this from the other side.
4
Just from the manufacturer's point of view, the same basic
thing happens as does the contractor. What I am talking
6
about is a manufacturer comes up — there are many sealants
and encapsulants on the market and there are many being
looked for, so a manufacturer th.at makes paint or chewing
gum, or whatever it may be, looks at the money involved in
the asbestos and tell their chemist of sales manaaer, take
11
"X,Y,Z" product, submit it to the EPA through Battelle,
and let's see what happens. We are not going to put much
lo
money in it, but I think that product may encapsulate
14
asbestos. Three months later th.e report comes back as a
425A, the chewing gum is now on the market. They make a
16
piece of literature, where they get the information I have
17
no idea, they mail it out, the EPA mails out the list,
18
thousands of people look at the list, they figure it is a
reputable company, and they get calls, I saw your product,
I have an asbestos problem, what do I do?
The problem is, these people don't know what do
do, but the people asking the questions believe what the
people tell them is the truth because if they have a
product approved they must have a company in the business
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that knows what it is doing. These jobs are carried out
under the supervision of somebody with very limited
affiliation with asbestos, and I am sure you have seen
many of them, just many products only because they are
approved, the literature comes out, they are a bona fide
supplier, they may sell it for $8 or $10 a gallon and the
contractors bidding low will take those products and go
back to the company and follow the specifications, and that
is where the jobs were botched up.
DR. SAWYER: I won't mention Bill's product. I
am familiar with, the firm. They have a high degree of
accountability and have always exhibited a high degree of
responsibility in everything th.ey do. What is your answer?
Do you think that Battelle should come out with sealant
specs and publish, those? Is that the answer?
VOICE: I believe the ASTM is trying to put
together specs for this. I feel it should be much like
taking the Bar exam in Florida, you get very stringent,
th.ey should be approved under a stringent method and then
the company itself must prove that th.ey have the knowledge,
not just the product, the knowledge and the personnel there
to help the people out in the field, to give them the
proper advice, whether they go to school or EPA starts a
school to train. The manufacturers on asbestos say, fine,
you have a product, now we want to train you on the do's
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and dont's on the product, and before they can sell the
9 product have to have certification or recognition as not
3 only having good product but a suitable force of people
4 that can offer the information.
Many people don't call the EPA for information
because they don't want the EPA to know they have an
asbestos product. They call the manufacturers that make
the product, and what they tell them they go by.
DR. SAV7YER: Or they call the contractor to put
T 4- -i >-»
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VOICE: My name is Magnus Lynch. I have a
question for EPA, and I think it is an important one for
th.e record.
lo
I haveTheard over the last two days mentioned on
numerous occasions an EPA approved list, and I don't think
lo
there is such a thing, and I think manufacturers are using
16
that very liberally. I think it is the publishing of
17
test results that meet certain tests, and I think the tests
18
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19
finishing materials. They are not applicable to sealants
per se, and to the function the sealant has to perform,
and that is to confine fibers, and I think Battelle has
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never done any tests like that.
MR. DORSEY: Two and a half years ago when the
Battelle grant was put together, or contract, all Battelle was
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1 charged with doing — there were many people out there that
2 had a bucket of paint that were sealing asbestos. Battelle's
3 contract was to develop some sort of test, or try to
4 develop an evaluation of these products, so that is all that
5 they were charged with doing.
6 Two and a half years ago we were not as smart as
7 we are today. We did not have the sophisticated techniques
8 that we have today, or the level of sophistication. When
9 th.e Battelle study was started, Mirick and others were
10 attempting to develop preliminary tests. They went to
11 Underwriters Laboratories, th.ey went to HUD, ran a
12 preliminary test and tried to develop a test matrix to
13 apply the sealant.
14 Many of the product could be dismissed immediately
15 because they were not working. Some did not seal asbestos
16 at all. We hadn't reached that point. Some did not work
17 in any way. That is all that test was supposed to do.
18 Two and a half years later, we are not in the
19 business of approving sealants. We are not in the business
20 of setting up a certification program. We don't have the
•>1 authority to do that.
22 It was purely an evaluation of existing products,
23 and many of the companies voluntarily sent their products
.74 to be tested. Many of the companies would love EPA to have
.,5 an approved list. It would be great to market an
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encapsulant that you say would be on an EPA approved list.
2 We can't do that. Even those that have passed these tests,
3 if they are not applied correctly or used by a competent
4 person they are not going to work. Even your product that
can be purchased by anybody if it is not applied correctly
and there is no training involved, and there is no way that
we can set up a training program, we don't have the authority,
can be ineffective. We need to determine wha,t additional
9 research is needed, what we can do to improve the situation,
10 but there is not an approved list.
I don't think there will be an approved list. It
is certainly not our terminology. It is not something we
have used in our office. The report will list the results
lo
of these preliminary tests. Hopefully in five years we will
have extensive tests and definitive protocols developed,
but two and a half years ago we didn't. We were starting
16
from scratch.
17
VOICE: My name is George Severt, and my business
18
is training monkeys to clean plenums, and I was sent here
with the money of the concerned, Asbestos Concerned Citizens
of Harper Valley PTA.
Really, I am George Severt, and I am from Minnesota.
The first thing I would like to do is say, thank
you, but what does that mean? I am a contractor. What does
that mean when you say I want to learn so that I can do
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l something to help you, but I have no money nor do I have
2 any authority. It is very difficult to understand how you
3 accomplish anything with no money and no authority.
4 You have said that you couldn't set up training
5 programs, and I would like to relate to that. I also would
6 like to relate to the comment that you made about air
7 sampling.
8 I should explain that I am a contractor that
9 studied two orange bibles for 9 months and never got an
10 asbestos encapsulation job, never have done one.
11 Fortunately I am reasonably successful in other endeavors.
12 The reason I don't get any of these jobs is not
13 because I don't bid them, and this relates back to what you
14 referred to, nobody really cares, and that is a predominant —
15 that is the predominant thing in Minnesota. I have studied
16 very diligently to learn how to do things in a proper manner,
17 according to what information is available,some of which I am
18 skeptical of, but I tried hard, and I am unable to get a job,
•»
19 and I have had a lot of problems along the same line you have.
20 There has been a lot of concern about specifications
2i and since I have some experience in the construction market,
22 I hear just about everybody, EPA, distinguished panel, you j
23 talk about specifications, and I find it so interesting,
24 because where do you think specifications come from? The
95 specifications on application of encasulating material will
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1 ultimately come from the contractor in the field, and until
2 that time comes, this is merely discussion, but it will
3 happen as it has in all new industries involving construction,
4 that this expertise will come from the field. This expertise
5 will come from the field contractor and until we get to that .
6 point everything else is academic. And I do mean academic.
7 I have heard much academics here.
8 DR. SAWYER: If I may break, in for a minute here,
9 you are not cognizant of a fact th.at is going to be brought
10 up, that just what you are saying has occurred. It is coining
11 out of industry. That the contractors who do the work have
12 designed specifications. This, I hope, will be presented to
13 you. But wh.at you are saying is 1QO percent correct, and I
14 can reassure you that it is occuring; that model specs are
15 being created by contractors.
16 MR. SEVERT: By a contractor committee of this
17 group? Is th.ere a contractor committee?
18 MR. WILSON: Yes. Let me tell you a little bit
19 about the development of these specs. We. have been working
20 with, the Association of Wall and Ceiling Industries, several
2i groups in Canada, and a variety of contractors. Dave
22 Spinazzolo is working on the group, others here are involved
03 in that group.
94 We are the first to admit that some of the older
25 specs out, some of the very general specs, and the guidance
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document, were too general. They were not specific enough
to control some of these Atilla the Contractor types, and
3 this has been an effort where the Association of Wall and
4 Ceiling Industries came to us with a proposal to try and
write a guide spec for the entire industry. It is designed
along the CSI format using suggested language on one panel
and the notes to the specifier on the other panel, to try and
help fine tune the guide specs to the specific job you are
9 doing. Obviously every job is different, but the specs will
10 be available very shortly. We hope to finish the final
draft this week.
MR. SEVERT: I guess I am more interested in who.
13 I tiave never heard of the Wall and Ceiling Industry as such,
14 as a group as such.. I am sorry. I haven't. And yet I have
15 been in th.e construction business for a good many years. I
16 am involved in the insulation business.
YJ MR. WILSON: I can introduce you to Gene Herman
18 later. He is th.e technical person for that. Basically they
19 are a trade organization of people involved in the ceiling
industry. Correct me if I am wrong —
01 MR. HERMAN: It is Wall and Ceiling Industries.
99 It includes insulation, lathe and plaster, dry wall, removal
and partitions, ad infinitum. I will be happy to talk to
94 you.
95 MR. WILSON: We have not limited the task force
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working on the specs only to that group. There are several
asbestos removal and encapsulation contractors, people
involved in paining, and people involved in various Federal
agencies, both, in the United States and Canada.
For anyone here, get your name on the mailing list
out there, and we will be glad to send you the draft,
hopefully, someitime at the end of this month.
I think the point you are making is very well
taken, that the concern here is education, and we need the
education from you as the industry, too. Hopefully that is
the direction these specs will take.
MR. SEVERT: That is why I asked if there was a
contractors' committee, because my experience tells me that
ultimately the architect and your company.~n will receive
information from the person in the field that actually does
the work, information that you can rely on to get the job
done and keep your nose clean. And that is all important,
I realize that.
I wonder if this group has given any consideration
to a certification program? Now, the thing that I started
to explain that is happening to me, and the thing that is
happening to him. really is because there is no certification.
I understand very well that you don't even certify products.
There is no product certification, but I think that will
really ultimately have to change, and I don't know really that
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you as the architect will ultimately, excluding what you
have just told me, because I didn't know about that, but
3 I don't think you as the architect will ultimately get the
4 proper information that you should have been having to
specify intelligently until there is some type of
6 certification or educational program for the contractors.
7 Maybe you are deeper into that than I considered
8 and that takes the place of a certification program, but
9 ultimately I feel that that is how you will get the good
10 specifications th.at you would like to have.
11 DR. SAWYER: But the function you are after is
12 competency, established competency in a contractor.
*.
13 MR. SEVERT: That's correct.
14 DR, SAWYER: We have been after that. We feel
15 that a certification program is less effective than building
16 into the specifications a demonstration of competency factors
17 We think that that is a heck of a lot better way to go at it.
18 In some cases certification has been highly
19 effective. In the City of New York, with the school
20 program, we did set up a certification program with
21 identification badges with people's pictures on them, and
22 they had to go through a certification course. However,
that was not the v;hol= "picture. There was a lot more
follow-up with adequate specs and clerk of the work
25 supervision, but that was an extremely well run, well
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1 controlled, massive program.
2 Generally speaking, certification has problems
3 with it.
MR. SEVERT: Could I run just a quick poll for
th.e benefit of the EPA?
How many contractors or people that consider
themselves contractors are here today?
8 CSHOW OF HANDS.),
9 MR. SEVERT: How many of you think that a
10 certification program would be good for our industry,
11 ; for this industry?
12 (.SHOW OF HANDS .)
13 MR, SEVERT: I am sure that what I am telling you
14 is that I disagree with you. I am sure that you saw that
15 90 percent of the contractors axe-'.behind me, and you can
16 poll it again if you like, but they disagree with you, too.
17 DR. SAWYER: I don't think they do. I am not
18 saying it is not a good thing. I am saying you asked a
19 very sneaky question. Motherhood is good, apple pie is
20 good, so are certification programs, but I disagree that
21 that is the total answer. Everything I can say I can
22 document.
23 If you see me later I will give you two research
24 papers published in the New York Academy of Sciences
25 that should prove without a shadow of a doubt that
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certification doesn't work.
MR. SEVERT: If you missed what just happened, then
3 you are in error, because it was a quorum.
4 MR. DORSEY: I accept your challenge. EPA will
not be able to set up a certification program. We can
6 provide education. Your certification program is
7 fantastic. Within the industry we have contacted
8 associations, anyone and everyone that will listen to me,
9 I have been there. If th.e next step is a certification
10 program, tell me the people to talk to and we will tell you
how to set up a certification program.
12 MR. SEVERT: If you had a contractor committee
13 . with. th.is group.
14 MR. DORSEY: EPA could not set up a committee to
15 set up an association. You could. If you want to form an
16 association of contractors, you could start such a committee.
17 MR. SEVERT: I might. I have some experience.
18 MR. WILSON: Two points — one is any ideas you
19 have about it we would be glad to assist you and provide
20 any help we can to do it. The other point is based on some
2i of the ideas Dr. Sawyer has introduced about the problems
22 of certification. We have done what we see as a step
further in the guidance specifications. Let me give you
an example.
We have set up the specifications so that there are
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checks and balances to catch some contractors trying to do
•x.
a job where they aren't competent to do it. For instance,
3 in the spec now there are some requirements for documentation
4 of certain things, prior to actually doing the job. The
contractor would have to document the training that he gave
the workers, how that was done, the length of it, and the
materials used. He would have to document his disposal
sites and the hauling contractor, or vehicles that were to be
9 used to get the material there, a variety of things like
10 that. So that someone — the specifier, the building owner,
11 could establish a series of checks to catch any kind of
12 faulty operation that was about to be undertaken. That, to
13 us, is the best way to go to make the specs tight.
14 Of course, it depends on the owner or the clerk
15 of the work monitoring the job. We are trying to go that
16 was so that even if the unqualified does get the bid there
17 is a way to get rid of him before the errors are made.
18 MR, SEVERT: They can give people a metal badge
19 to cheat with. They would still be escaping the rules.
20 Even though you document the site, you better make sure that
21 you document how many barrels are taken out of the room,
22 tOO .
93 What I feel is that certification would be
24 establishing the nucleus .; of the group that is ultimately
25 going to write the constructin specifications, and none of
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you may ever see me again, but I can guarantee you that
this is ultimately what will happen, the performance
3 standards of this new industry will be written by the
4 performers, the contractors, so a certification program
would start a nucleus.; of a group able to come up with
decent specifications for people such as yourself, and it
will be absolutely impossible to k.eep this endeavor in
the lab or in the office. It will come from the field.
9 . DR. SAWTELLE: Thank you for your comments. Most
10 of our information on this is from the field, not from
th.e laboratory. We have demonstrated to you that a
12 contractor group is the source of th.e new specifications.
13 I am sorry that you don't know that, but I can assure you
14 that that is wh.at is happening.
15 VOICE: I.'..am .Gene Irwin, representing AWCI. I am
16 the Technical Director of AWCI, something bandied about a
17 bit this morning. We have attempted to address — first, we
18 have tried to recognize just about every point that has
19 been raised here. We recognize that a certification program
per se, nothing else behind it, is not adequate. We
21 approached EPA, as has been mentioned, to develop further
22 than that a guide specification to catch the other half of
23 that problem. We are very close to fruition ar.i --.'hat will
24 undoubtedly be a first effort, and it is obvious!;/ not
going to be perfect.
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Taking the third step, we have instituted a
training program for the contractors. The first one of
these, and this is the commercial, will be held in
Edmonton, Canada, the 23rd, 24th. of this month. See me
for registration forms.
The difficulty with the training program, as we
have listened for two days, is what are we going to train
on with respect to encapsulation. There is no agreement
here. We are simply a group of contractors who are relying
on people like Dave, who have had the field experience.
We also look to the manufacturers because they do have some
technical expertise. They know what their products will do,
Our job is to extract the truth out of that and put that
together collectively with what we know, and balance it
off and reach a consensus.
So I would be happy to talk to any contractor here
about this program,
DR. SAWYER: Thank you very much.
Ernest?
MR. LORY: I am Ernest Lory, from the Department
of the Navy. I have a quick question on one of the slides
you presented. It indicated that outside of a double
barrier system you were obtaining fibers coming through
the double barrier system. Within the work area, was the
worker under a negative pressure or not?
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DR. SAWYER: No. That is a good question. What
I said in conjunction with that slide was that under
operating conditions, job site in the field conditions,
this was not a lab experiment, but monitoring what was
going on in the field with dry removal, we were getting
counts, mean values up in the 60's and 75 percent CC.
What the slide meant is there was no DP between any of
the barriers. We were careful to measure that. So the
lateral movement was probably incurred by worker movement
through the barriers or just th.e overload of the barrier
leaking around the seal. The point there was that fiber
control — number one, material control, proper wetting
techniques, using amended water; number 2, compromising fiber
aeEodynamics by getting water on them was essential to
proper containment. The two are linked. It is extremely
difficult to contain high levels of airborne asbestos by
barriers without any negative pressure. That was the
point there.
I have more slides showing the effect of negative
pressure that yes, it does work.
This will be our last statement. Larry Dorsey.'.is
looking hyperglycimi'c.
VOICE: There is great concern for the worker doing
the removal and the encapsulation work, and the question of
barriers and so on, and liver- count. I haven't heard
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I anything about smoking. There are some statistics that the
2 great Silicoff has presented on the great synergistic effect
3 of smoking on asbestos workers. In fact, when you isolate
4 the nonsmoking people to the smok>ers, the hazard was
5 comparable to the regular public. I would like to suggest
6 that in fact Dr. George Wright of Cleveland suggested at
7 one time that probably the best protection for asbestos
8 workers, and probably one of the best defense mechanisms,
9 was to hire nonsmokers and you eliminate a great percentage
10 of the problem. I didn't hear that at any time, and I think
n that is an important issue. Would you like to comment,
12 Dr. Sawyer?
13 DR. SAWYER: Yes. I thoroughly endorse your
14 statements and the comment and the medical intelligence that
15 you have brought forth here. What he is suggesting is the
IQ fact that probably the mQSt^ potent cocarcinogen effect that
we know in medicine is the combination of smoking and asbestos
18 exposure. If you are talking about asbestos workers, there
is a multiplying depending on what study you look at between
50 and 90 times the incident of malignancies in the heavily
9} exposed heavy smoker as compared to nonexposed nonsmoker.
22 The use of this intelligence in its social
03 application is the problem. We have tried, and indeed we
94 have seen even problems in getting this into our manuals.
There is a lot of resistance to it. I have managed to
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sneak it in in every single thing I have ever written,
every single film I have ever made for asbestos workers.
3 It is there. Johns Manville indeed h'a's • instituted a totally
4 aon-sjnofcing programs
Indeed, the only thing I, as a physician, can
6 tell an asbestos worker is if you don't smoke, don't ever,
7 and if you do smoke, then stop. That is the only thing I
can tell as far as I am concerned has any effect whatsoever
9 on the progression of the development of malignant disease
10 from asbestos exposure. This is a good point. I have
something else cooking along the same line as far as the
12 I national program I am trying to get going. My work with
13 Jules Bergman, if you will notice documentaries he has done,
14 this is stressed. I am not trying to do it officially. My
15 approach is a public awareness. I would like the guy's wife
16 to bitch at me. I want everybody in the United States to
17 know the link between asbestos and smoking.
18 VOICE: We don't hear that.
19 DR. SAWYER: There are political reasons for that.
.>0 The concept indeed I would hire for asbestos removal work,
if you want to pick the best population, would be people over j
40 of age who have never smoked. Try to do that socially
or politically. It is tough. Then you get into real trouble.
I would like to adjourn. Thank you very much for
._,0 your attentiveness. I saw no one sleeping. Thank you very
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much for the extremely provocative questions and comments,
and Larry Dorsey has an announcement. .
I think we reconvene at 2.100 o'clock.
MR. DORSEY: We will break until 2:00 o'clock.
5 CWhereupon, at 12:30 p.m. the conference was
6 adjourned, to reconvene at 2:00 o'clock the same day.)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
MR. REINHARDT: I would like to get started, if
we could.
4 We plan to run this panel discussion until about
5 ten minutes of 4:00 to give us time to make a few final
6 announcements, and we hope to break up right at 4:00 o'clock
7 to give some of you time to catch your planes.
8 With me here are the people who are listed on
your agenda.
10 Immediately to my left is Anthony McMahon, who
11 works for the New Jersey Department of Environmental
12 Protection. He has been there for 8 years and has been
13 working wi.th asbestos for about 5 years, and prior to
14 joining the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection
15 he was with a consulting firm that dealt primarily with
16 air pollution.
17 Next is Dr. Dhun Patel, Chief of Environmental
18 Health and Hazard Evaluation for the New Jersey Department
19 of Health. Prior to joining the Department he taught for
20 8 years at the Columbia School of Pharmacy and of Medicine.
2i Next is Robert Berhinig, who works for Underwriters
•79 Laboratories in their Fire Protection Department. He holds
a degree in civil engineering, and is a member of ASTM and
24 the National Fire Protection Association.
25 Eugene Secor of H. B. Fuller Company, is a chemist
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l who has been working with asbestos since 1973. H. B. Fuller
2 was one of the first companies to get actively involved in
3 encapsulation.
4 Magnus Hienzsh is an architect who worked with
5 the Naval Facilities Engineering Command. He has worked
6 with asbestos from 1976 and is now in private practice as
7 an architect.
8 I would like to ask Mr. Berhinig to speak first.
9 MR. BERHINIG: Thank you, Forest.
10 Good afternoon. As Forest was saying, I have been
H associated with Underwriters Laboratories in their Fire
i? Protection Department for over 10 years. And in light of
13 this discussion today and in the panel discussion that will. •
14 follow, I would like to explain some of the old fire
15 performance characteristics that should be considered when
16 using an encapsulating agent.
17 To do that I think one must first understand what
18 is the goal, why should we consider these performance
19 characteristics. The goal of any work that anybody comes up
20 with is that when encapsulating agents are used that the
21 overall fire performance properties of the materials or the
99 systems are not reduced. We are not trying to improve them,
93 but we don't want the fire performance to be reduced.
94 In this light there should be two items considered,
25 fire performance of the materials themselves and, also, the
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l fire performance of the systems. In any case, what the
2 contractor should be concerned with, the manufacturer, the
3 building firms, are the actual code requirements.
4 In that light there are basically two simple
5 requirements. One is concern with the surface flammability
Q of materials, and in this area this is primarily a material
7 responsibility, a performance characteristic; and the methods
8 used to evaluate the surface flammability are pretty well
9 established and used throughout the United States and Canada.
10 One of the main items is a method called ASTMEM 84, and most
n of the suppliers and building people know about it.
12 Another area which is more complex, would be the
13 performance in a total system, hourly fire resistance.
14 Unlike before, we were talking surface flammability, which is
,, a function of the material. Here we are talking about a
lO "*
16 system overall performance where it could be material applied
to steel columns, beams, or it could be applied to a roof
18 deck or floor deck. In this case you really have to look at
19 the overall performance of the systems, and in this light
9f) currently ASTM is working on developing a method to
9. hopefully simply evaluate the use of encapsulants on
99 representative materials .
Again, when we are doing this work I believe we
always have to go back to what our original goal was, and
that is that we have to try to maintain, nor not result in
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significant decreases in the overall fire performance. If
we can understand this goal and keep this in mind, I believe
„ whatever product comes up from UL or ASTM will be relatively
o
simple and easy to use.
MR. REINHARDT: Thank you, Bob. I am not going
0
- to try to summarize the speech as Dr. Sawyer did this
b
morning. I am not that eloquent.
I would like Magnus to talk about acoustics and a
o
couple of other things.
y
MR. HIENZSCH: Good afternoon.
That is how I was introduced to my topics, that I
am supposed to talk about a couple of other things I hadn't
known about
13
I am an architect, and as an architect I am
14
concerned with what encapsulants or sealants might be doing
lo
to spray applied asbestos containing insulation that was
16
originally installed for control of sound, other acoustical
purposes. If we talk about large theaters, auditoriums,
18
»
gymnasiums, swimming pools, where we are interested in noise
reduction which is affected by the fluffiness of the material,
the softness of the material to absorb sound energy and with
acoustical plaster and other friable materials where we are
relying on the small pores .for the sound energy to dissipate
itself in.
24
25
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I wonder what the effect might be of a sealant,
2 an impervious membrane, that is installed over those pores,
3 clogging the pores, filling in the pores, and essentially
4 turning it into a hard reflector. I don't know what kind of
5 effect it will have, and I would like to see some research
5 done on that. I don't think ASTM is after an evaluation
7 like this because it does not apply to most installations,
and I think to have every manufacturer's product undergo
9 a test such as that would be too expensive.
10. When an architect thinks about a sealant application
in an acoustically critical building then maybe a test
12 application might have to be made and an acoustical
13 laboratory brought in to see what effect the sealant .has
14 on the acoustical absorption.
15 In a lot of instances if we spray the building
16 with a sealant, an auditorium or a theater, and the next
17 performance goes on stage and the acoustics goes down, the
18 owner might have to opt for total removal. In another case
19 it might be possible that after a sealant is installed that
detracts some of the acoustical properties of the material,
a new material might have to be oversprayed over the sealant
99 or sound blocking might have to be installed and maybe the
installation can't take the added weight.
So I think it behooves A&E's when making
recommendations to building owners of what to do, what to
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opt for, whether removal or encapsulation, to think about
2 the acoustical performance.
3 Now, what are the other things? I can talk a lot
about specifications and the importance of tightness in
specifications, and as such I want to give a plug for the
Navy. You have heard several people mention that during
7 the last 1 or 2 years the specifications have vastly
8 improved because certain things were done to them. The
Navy has been doing that for the last five years.
10 The certification of contractors. Now everybody
11 talks about keeping government out of private business,
12 keeping government out of private people's lives, and I
13 fully agree. I think it is up to the contractors to police
14 themselves, and the best means of policing is the contractor's
15 license. If somebody has a poor performance, make sure
16 the bonding company knows, make sure the state knows, and
17 get his license pulled.
18 In terms of education, the Navy always has
19 specified that the contractor has to have a training program
20 and has to submit proof of such a program, and during a
21 preconstruction conference the Navy usually attended that
22 training program and the Navy's inspectors attended that
23 training program, too. So the Navy knew what the contractor
24 heard from the industrial hygienist that usually gave the
25 program, and the Navy's inspectors also knew.
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If you have any questions we can field them later.
This is supposed to be a panel discussion, not a speechmaking
thing. Thank you.
MR. REINHARDT: Thanks, Magnus.
Now, Gene Secor, of H. B. Fuller, is going to talk
about chemical compatibility questions, permeability questions
and, finally, ways in which to determine whether a given
substrate of asbestos containing material is suitable for
9 encapsulation.
10 MR. SECOR: I hope I can handle all these topics.
11 The first question that I will talk about is
12 permeability. It is a question, or rather a concept that
13 has not been addressed by Battelle Labs because it really
14 doesn't have anything, in essence, to do with how good a
15 sealer will perform. What it does have to do with, however,
16 is how good a sealer will cure, and what will happen to an
17 insulation system after the curing process has taken place
18 if water intrudes behind the film formed by the sealer.
19 Permeability, in general, is a method of
20 describing how moisture moves between the films. It generally
i
21 takes place from a location of high relative humidity to a
22 location of lower relative humidity.
The question was raised this morning, I recall, as
to how hard it is for sealants to cure in enclosed envelope
25 spaces, such as we are using for encapsulation. Generally
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l the sealants won't cure per se in this environment. What
2 will happen is that because the insulation system and/or
3 the sealant that has been used is wet relative to the
4 atmosphere, it will get a surface film formed. This film
5 tends to dry for the exposed surfacing. As more and more
6 of that film in general coalesces and its properties form,
7 it gets h.arder and harder for any water that has been put
8 into the insulation system from the coating to get out. If
9 the coating is impermeable, this will allow it to breathe.
10 In general, permeability is expressed in the term
H "perm". The lower the perm value, the more impermeable,
12 th.e more resistant the coating is to the passage of water
•
13 vapor. So you don't want to use a vapor barrier as an
14 encapsulant.
15 The Canadian Government has taken this into
16 consideration in their specifications. They call out a
17 "perm value of 3." I don't know whether a perm value of 3
18 is a good, bad or indifferent number. Normally in the
19 industry if you do have a perm value of 3 it is considered
90 to be a breather and the coating will breathe under most
91 circumstances .
22 - mentioned that -permeability will have some
03 effect on =.llo'-;i .ig a system to survey, shall we say, the
24 intrusion of water, let us say from a sealing leak.
25 Catastrophic failures of sealings in roofs do not occur
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1 normally overnight. Usually you have small leaks that get
2 bigger as time goes by. If these small leaks are prevented
3 from breathing or venting themselves, the water has only one
4 place to go. It either has to blister and expand or it has
5 to evaporate or pass through the substrate through which
6 it has already leaked. Normally that doesn't happen.
7 Normally it continues to accumulate, if behind a barrier.
8 As this accumulation gets worse and worse you have more and
9 more water on the coating and eventually the whole thing falls
10 down. So that is another reason for using permable films
11 as encapsulants .
12 How do you determine that on a bridging agent?
13 It is standard practice to run an ASTM 396 or 398. Both
14 are well defined and documented.
15 The penetrants, however, provide a different
16 problem. For the most part they don't form a homogeneous
17 film across the surface. Therefore, you don't have the
18 film preventing moisture egress. So it is my thought that
>
19 the best way to determine permiance of the penetrating
20 types of sealants is to create a dry film of that particular
21 sealant in its thickest coverage. Run the permiants on it
22 and if it is a breather it will be even more of a breather
23 when it is installed. I would think that in general, from
24 a water intrusion point of view behind the encapsulant, that
25 penetrants will probably fare better than bridging agents
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1 from the point of view of breathing, or getting rid of any
2 accumulated moisture.
3 Questions on chemical compatibility. There has
4 been almost no work done in this area. I believe Mirick
5 has mentioned that, and I am going to mention it again. No
6 work. However, some generalizations can be made.
7 Many of the products that have been tested by
8 Battelle, whether they were acceptable or not acceptable,
9 utilized polymers that have been used for years in the
10 latex paint industry. The chemical properties of these
11 polymers are well known. The problem with insulation systems
12 in general that we are dealing with here is that almost
13 always they are alkaline in nature. Because of this, all
14 the polymers that are used in various encapsulants have some
15 resistance to alkaline environments.
16 Additionally, there is one physical compatibility
17 problem that has to be looked at, and Dr. Sawyer mentioned it,
18 Very often starch binders and clay binders were used. In
19 most instances the clay binders were not totally inactivated
20 upon use, so they can resolublize and the whole material fall
2i down. The same holds true of starches. It is hard to
22 completely insolubliae a starch. Most contractors couldn't
23 care less. Therefore, you have the possibility of
24 redisolving the starch and the system again falls down.
25 These things should be tested prior to the use of
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any encapsulant, regardless of type.
2 I suggest that when aging studies are done on
3 the various encapsulants, that the compatibility chemicalwise
4 will come out of the woodwork. As a coating is left over a
given insulation system for a period of time, the
6 deteriorating effects of the alkalinity should become
7 apparent and this should become evident if tests are done.
The film should not drastically change in property, say
9 when freshly made versus a 6 or 12 month period. Two years,
10 perhaps, you may see some drastic changes, because normally
two years or longer in some kind of aging test is equivalent
12 to ten years or more, very often, in the actual world.
13 Forest has asked me what my thoughts are on how
14 you determine whether an encapsulant should be used over a
15 given insulation system. This is an extremely hard question
16 to answer because every 'insulation system is different.
17 However, in general, I think that many of the items given
18 in the algorithm, if looked at from the point of view of
19 using an encapsulant, might be of interest.
On the real soft, fluffy cotton candy type of
91 insulation, as I like to call it, which very often is
99 fireproof ing, those types of insulation systems are very
hard to encapsulate, for a number of reasons. Normally the
material wasn't applied all at once. It normally was
applied an inch at a time and they come back and apply
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another inch. So you have laminations already built into
2 the insulation. If you have any kind of interlaminer space,
3 the encapsulant, if a penetrating variety especially, can't
4 jump from one place to another. So those.types of
5 insulation systems are hard to encapsulate.
6 The vermiculite pearlite kind are relatively
7 easy in my opinion. You spray your encapsulant on the system
according to your own recommendations, whatever they may be.
9 You allow the material to cure. You test it for penetrations,
10 if you have a penetrating type, or you test it for adhesion,
et cetera, if you are using abridging- type. If the material
12 appears well adhered to the insulation system, and the
13 insulation system does not appear to be disbonding in .any
14 way, then normally I would say that encapsulant is probably
15 acceptable. This acceptability criteria obviously is
16 subjective.
17 We have heard all kinds of comments as to
18 specifications, how we can do this, how we can do that. I
19 would say using Mirick's cohesion, adhesion test in
conjunction with a lot of common sense and the correct test
patch .be done, that almost in every case a bad situation
22 will be avoided. The more familiar contractors and
manufacturers become with their products and how they perform,
the better able one will be to make this kind of decision.
In this case familiarity does not breed comtempt, I don't
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think, because every job I see is different. Believe me, it
2 is different, and the more I see of them, the more I learn.
3 That is all I have to say.
4 MR. REINHARDT: Thank you.
5 Tony McMahon is now going to introduce a rather
6 different perspective on the use of encapsulants which the
7 State of New Jersey has espoused.
MR. McMAHON: Before I start, I would like to get
9 a little audience participation. I would like to see —
10 I can tell you are all my friends now, and I would like to
see who you are. Can I see how many people we have here who
19 represent manufacturers of encapsulants or sealants?
13 How many are contractors and architects in that
14 general field?
15 How many are in government, local, state, and
16 federal?
17 And how many are people who are considering using
18 encapsulants, have a building or a facility which has a
ig problem?
I consider you all my friends at this point, but
let me put it right up front. New Jersey's position right
now is we strongly advise against the use of sealants in
almost any case. There are very, very f.ew situacioris where
94 a sealant can be used. Our feeling is that if an asbestos
containing surface has deteriorated to the point to need
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1 some kind of control, that control should be removal. Any
2 surface which can be sealed can also be removed.
3 I originally was going to go into the reasons
4 point by point. Most of them are contained very adequately
5 in the EPA Guidelines which are provided in your packet. I
6 might point out that it doesn't take all of these to end up
7 in a failure of an encapsulant job, just one. I might add
8 one more disadvantage. That is in the quality control during
9 the application. As has been pointed out every job is
10 different, every asbestos containing surface is different,
11 and I have yet to see any method of showing the encapsulant
12 being applied has been adequately and thoroughly and not
13 overapplied or underapplied either in one area or another.
14 To arrive at this position has been one which has taken the
15 State of New Jersey about five years.
16 When the asbestos bomb was first dropped in New
17 Jersey it was the Hull Township situation. There were seven
18 schools in one township. The asbestos containing material
19 was very friable, very fluffy. The students were engaging
20 in snowball fights with the friable asbestos. We knew we
21 had a very, very serious situation. We looked. We asked
22 EPA, we asked OSHA, we asked anyone we could find. There
23 was no information. No one knew what the solution was at
24 that point in time, so we started off on our own.
25 We formed a cabinet committee of various
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1 Departments in New Jersey. In May of 1977, as a result of
2 a lot of work, a lot of trial and error, we came out xvith a
3 guidance document for persons who are involved in buildings
4 which contain asbestos. As far as I know, it was the first
5 guidance document to provide information on how to assess a
6 potential hazard, listing contractors and testers. Also,
7 we listed remedial action.
8 In that guidance document we did have a section
9 on encapsulants. We were considering their use. We did
10 see that as a reasonable method for a potential method of
11 control, but we still had very, very little information, a
12 very brief knowledge.
13 In June of 1976, I guess, the next major incident
14 that occurred was the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine came out
15 with its study. It looked at New Jersey schools. We found
16 that of our 2500 public schools, approximately 250 of those
17 schools had some sort of asbestos. The study also looked
18 at removal methods, assessment methods, and encapsulants.
19 I think this is one of the first reports where I
20 clearly saw some of the deficiencies of encapsulants, and
21 we began to become somewhat cautious.
22 Also at about this time the Battelle study was
23 commissioned.
24 Our position at that time was what we were telling
25 the schools is pretty much., hold off on encapsulants, hold
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l off on sealants, let's see what EPA is going to come out
2 with with this Battelle study. We said, that study is coming
3 out in a few months, and then a few months, and then a few
4 months, and we waited, and nothing came out.
5 The materials used in the Battelle Studies were
6 very good, but there were a lot of other criteria not looked
7 at.
8 In March of 1979 EPA came out with their guidance
9 document and again the deficiencies of encapsulants and
10 sealants were pointed out. This was about the time we began
11 to feel good about some of the information we had on removal.
12 We were placing most of our emphasis on removal, obviously.
13 We were doing a lot of work, and the EPA guidance document
14 supported our position at that point.
15 Finally, in June 1980, just a year ago, New Jersey
16 arrived at its present position. The Cabinet Committee on
17 Cancer Control, which was formed by the Governor, and was
18 made up of a number of state institutions, was involved in
19 a great deal of debate and discussion — I myself made a
20 number of inspections and reviews of encapsulants, we looked
2i at the Battelle studies, all the information available at
22 that time, and we arrived at the position that until a
93 sealant can be proven to do the job thoroughly and will last
24 for long periods of time, very long periods of time, that
95 that was not the way to go.
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1 I am not going to go into our removal program.
2 As I said, we have spent a lot of time on it. Basically
3 what we have is a contractor training program, and all
4 contractors who go through this one-day training course
become eligible to be placed on a contractor's list, a
6 bidder's list. Only persons on this list are eligible for
- state contracts, school contracts, any New Jersey funded
contract. Only those contractors on the list can be eligible
9
8
for these contracts.
10 I might add that all of the workers must go
.. through the training, not just the president of the company
19 or one official in the company. Each person on the job must
go through the full training.
We also have minimum specifications for contracts
for removal. Also, on this state bidder's list we did have
lo
a situation — there was a gentleman this morning questioning
whether or not there was enforcement. We have removed
g contractors from our lists who have been found to flagrantly
violate the guidelines and contract specifications. They
9_ have been removed. We have gone through hearings and there
91 have been removals from the list, so there is some
99 enforcement.
93 I have to admit it is not as thorough — we don't
inspect every removal site, but at least there is a knowledge
of our presence.
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1 I am going to end now with a statement to Forest
2 and EPA. New Jersey feels that at this time there has been
3 enough time and money and resources invested in the research
4 on sealants. We feel that the resources of the Environmental
5 Protection Agency and of the Nation as a whole should be
6 directed towards upgrading the control over removal, that
7 is the Federal regulations, we would like to see a lot of
8 guidelines entered into the Federal regulations. We think
9 that it is about time to stop this impossible dream.
10 We talk a lot of reality and dreams and so on.
11 The dream of finding an almight, all penetrating, all
12 everlasting sealant is just a dream.
13 MR. REINHARDT: Thanks. I may try to respond to
14 that later.
15 Dr. Patel, I believe, has something to add to
16 Mr. McMahon's talk.
17 MR. PATEL: I think he did an excellent job of
18 describing our position, and, therefore, I will take very
19 little time just to add to it.
20 I want to emphasize that the Cabinet Committee on
21 Cancer Control, which Tony talked about, formed a
22 subcommittee which was then called The Governor's Task Force
23 on Asbestos, and this consisted of a lot of Departments
24 within the State Government. It included the Department of
25 Health representatives, it included Department of Environmenta
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l Protection representatives, Labor and Industry, the
2 Department of Education, Department of Community Affairs.
3 We had representation from Human Services, Transportation,
4 Treasury, and on "accsasions, when there was some discussion
5 about problems in any other Departments in the State, they
6 were also invited to participate. And, of course, the
7. Attorney General's office. So we had people from almost all
8 the Departments participating in our discussions.
9 The Task Force did accomplish a couple of the
IQ objectives which they had undertaken. One of them, which
n is the minimum specifications -- in the history, I think
12 Tony.;' left out the fact that we did come up with minimum
13 specifications.
14 He mentioned that the minimum specifications
15 included the requirement for training of the contractors,
16 the architects and the asbestos workers, and that we have
17 a list, and so in essence that is certification of the
18 asbestos workers. Of course, the regional EPA office has
19 been helping us extensively in this training course.
20 The other objective which the Task- Force
91 accomplished was the position paper on sealants which Tony
99 mentioned. We do have a June 5, 1980 position paper which
93 came out of the Governor's Task Force, which states our
24 policy on asbestos, of sealants for control of asbestos.
25 Earlier this morning I think the gentleman from
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1 North Carolina was mentioning that there were six stages that
2 we went through, the disillusions, I think he mentioned, then
3 the guilt feelings, and then the punishment, and the awards
4 for non participation — it was interesting to me that I was
5 contemplating along these lines that our route has been
6 cyclical. We started out with general interest, and maybe
7 there was something here we can use which can be reasonable
8 in cost and be useful for controling the asbestos hazards,
9 and then, like Tony mentioned, the EPA-Mt. Sinai report
10 came out about the problems, which we saw.
11 I think somebody mentioned this one ceiling which
12 fell in 20 minutes. I believe that was one of those that
13 they experimented upon in New Jersey in the earlier stages
14 when we thought sealants might be useful. So then we began
15 to see the problems. Then, of course, there were new
16 sealants and contractors said that .these were much better
17 and would be more useful, and at this stage the EPA-Battelle
18 study was initiated to find out about the use of these.
19 This built up a cry among the users and the
20 providers for a less expensive control method, and there was
21 a long delay in getting the reports out, but this was
22 because of the extensive evaluation of ten sealants, which
23 included, as we see in the report handed out to us this
24 morning, the determination of flexibility, impact strength,
25 abrasion properties, smoke generation, toxic gas release,
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l and the flame spread, and a few other things. Out of these,
2 four were selected for field testing, and I think the draft
3 of the final report is the stage we are at, which seems to
4 again be a complete circle.
5 Yes, we saw some excellent research presented to
6 us, both by the Navy and the Georgia Institute of Technology,
7 which again highlighted the problems in the user sealants.
8 That completes the circle. We raised the expectancy by the
9 report that maybe sealants can be used, but at the same time
10 we come up with the problem that we hadn't even seen
H included in this report, so we still have that question.
12 Then we heard from the contractors and architects
13 that there may be instances, and from the experts, that
!4 there may be instances, especially in industrial applications,
15 where sealants may be used. So we go on with a mixed
16 feeling about the use of sealants.
17 Like Tony mentioned, in our discussion in New
18 Jersey, we looked very carefully at both sites and at all
19 the various questions about the user sealants, and as Tony
20 mentioned earlier, we participated actively several times
2i in the national discussions on various types of asbestos
22 problems, the asbestos regulations, the advance notice for
23 proposed rulemaking, the proposed regulations by EPA, by
94 the Department of Education, the national discussion on
95 asbestos replacement. We have come to all of these hearings
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1 and presented our viewpoints at all of these hearings, and
2 also to get complete first hand information from all tho^se
3 concerned out there about these things.
4 Then, after this, we looked in the State where
5 sealants were used, especially in the earlier stages, the
6 ones that Tony also mentioned, and we observed that the
7 advantages which had been listed in the various EPA
8 publications, including the ones handed out yesterday and
9 today and which were discussed by several speakers, we
10 found out that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages
11 of sealants in many instances. Whether 30, 50 or 80 percent
12 of the time does not alter the fact that in those instances
13 where it failed it put a tremendous financial burden on all
14 of the concerned parties, and besides there was added
15 aggravation and prolonged anxiety among the users of these
16 facilities where these sealants were tried.
17 We noted that any time moisture either from
18 condensation or leaks, when this gets under the sealed
19 material, since this material is now impervious to water,
20 the added weight of the water then pulls the whole ceiling
21 down.
22 We also had discussions with many architects and
23 | contractors about their opinions and observations on the
24 use of sealants, and we found that for every contractor who
25 advocated the use of sealants, or manufacturer, there were
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many who mentioned to us the problems they had faced when
for the sake of saving a few dollars they were asked by
customers to use sealants as a control method.
4 My final concern is that it took EPA and Battelle
5 so many years to evaluate about 100 sealants, I believe.
6 Now, with EPA again raising the hope of users and applicators,
.7 and, I guess, my comments now are also directed to you, I
am afraid there will be maybe 500, 1,000, or many more new
9 sealants that will have to be evaluated by EPA prior to
10 being accepted, and I wonder how many years we will have to
11 wait — I am not blaming EPA. I think they are doing great
12 work, but it takes time to get all that information.
13 In my opinion it would be better if EPA clearly
14 stated at this state that in certain facilities where we
15 have exuberant students, and where we can't control that,
16 that sealants should not be used under any condition.
17 Then maybe list the advantages and disadvantages for other
18 types of facilities to evaluate their particular situation
19 and then decide what type of corrective action is most
20 suitable.
I would also like to mention, earlier we were
22 told that EPA does not intend to come out with an approved
23 list. To me that does not make sense. If you are going to
24 spend so much time and money to do this work, at least we
25 should get the benefit of that, and EPA should come out with
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1 an approved list of sealants if that is possible.
2 In my closing remarks, I am concerned with the
3 public health issue/ both for users of these buildings and
4 applicators and workers, and that is why in New Jersey we
5 have been selective, and hope we are doing our best to
6 protect the health of all involved.
7 Our minimum specification, we feel, is a good
8 document, and we do have a training course on certification
9 for the asbestos workers.
10 Furthermore, we do inspect the sites to see if
11 these specifications are being followed. We don't go to
12 every site, every job, but we at least try to get to each
13 of the contractors — 20 or 30 contractors -T that do most
14 of the work at least once a year, and quite often more than
15 that.
16 We have also seen some very flagrant violations,
17 in which case we have been able to stop work immediately
18 when it was brought to our attention or if we observed it,
19 using the authority which has been vested in the various
20 state departments, depending on whether it was a serious
21 health problem, or DP, or v/hatever state institution has
22 the responsibility. We have also had excellent cooperation
23 from the local OSHA offices in these instances in closing
24 down some of these jobs.
25 I don't think the gentleman who raised that
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l particular issue is here. Unfortunately I wasn't able to
2 answer that earlier for him, but I think he would appreciate
3 knowing that we do not have those kind of problems in New
4 Jersey, and I think I will leave the rest of the time for
5 questions later.
6 MR. REINHARDT: In your questions, if you could
7 use the mike in the middle of the floor.
8 Since we do have only about an hour left, I would
9 appreciate it if you would keep your comments fairly brief.
10 VOICE: I hate to tell you, but I think you will
11 see the day when you regret the decision that you have made
12 under the circumstances in which you made it. If you think
•
13 that the State of New Jersey doesn't have its problems and
14 that you are not eliminating a good 50 to 60 percent of the
15 potential disasters because of your decisions, then you are
16 sadly mistaken. We get the phone calls and we talk to people
17 that don't want to be seen by you and don't want to be
18 inspected. If you get around to 30 contractors once a year
19 you are missing the boat.
20 You have made a decision that you are going to cut
2i out the people who can just not afford to remove asbestos,
22 and you say that the difference is a fev; dollars.
23 Apparently there is something lacking L:. year program.
24 Secondly, a good contractor, there is a handful of good
95 contractors in this country, a handful that are actually
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capable mentally and physically and equipped to remove
asbestos in the proper manner.
3 Now, I think everybody in the room agrees that the
4 fact that the ultimate solution for asbestos is removal.
I don't think there is anybody that would argue with that
6 fact. But I also think you have to agree that if it is not
7 done properly, it is a far greater danger to try to remove the
asbestos than to leave it alone and do nothing about it.
9 I would only hope that the people in the State of
10 New Jersey have as much faith in your contractor program
11 or contractor approval program as you do, because I dare say
12 that you are making a very grim mistake, and the day will
come when you are going to retract, because the commercial
14 businesses are out there, and they will not and cannot in
15 many instances just won't put up with the expense of removing
16 asbestos. Especially you are talking about cementitious
17 asbestos. You have,seen many cases where just to rip it off
18 the ceiling is a horrendous job. There is no reason to do
19 that, spending the money and the testing involved with it
20 when encapsulation will do the job.
2i Encapsulation _Ls not the answer, and there is no
all mighty coating or encapsulatant invented, but there is
23 no all mighty contractor to be put to the task of removing
24 all the asbestos in New Jersey, and I think you have made
a grave mistake and it will come. (APPLAUSE.)
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DR. PATEL: Let me see if I can answer some of
2 the concerns you had over there.
3 First of all, it wasn't the two of us who made
4 the decision. I thought I tried to bring that out. uThere
was a whole committee, and every state department was
6 involved that was responsible for the decision.
7 Secondly, I want to state that in the Department
8 of Health now we have a controlled response plan for
9 asbestos control, and that means that when we get a call
10 about a problem on asbestos we use a questionnaire that we
11 have developed, and depending on how serious the problem is,
12 we will send somebody out immediately or later, or just give
13 them advice, depending on the problem. If there is a
14 problem we will go out and we will use the algorithm,
15 collect samples — our lab now does have polaroid light
16 microscopy as well as X-ray defraction to do the analysis,
17 so we will collect a sufficient number of samples as
18 stated in the proposed regulations, and we do all of that to
19 decide if a problem exists. Only if the problem exists,
20 then we would recommend removal.
'21 If the asbestos is cementitious, I have been to
22 schools where I told them they don't have to do anything,
because it was in excellent condition, not only the sandy
type, but this was almost like cement, a smooth surface,
25 nothing coming off, and I didn't see any need for action
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l there. So it is not like we are asking everybody to remove.
2 Secondly, in terms of saving money, there is a
3 serious question, and it is not — right now there is no
4 regulation that sealants cannot be used. This is a
5 recommendation,- and only in those institutions, like in
6 education, there, they are not allowed to use sealants.
7 So we are open to the question. If somebody ever does
8 come up with a super sealant, obviously we will consider
9 that, so it is not like it is a closed question at this stage,
10 We don't feel the use of sealants does save money or help
11 in controlling the hazards of asbestos exposure.
12 VOICE: Robert Grove, Commonwealth of Virginia^
13 A question for Dr. Patel. Are you going out and
14 monitoring the removal — is the State involved in the
15 monitoring of the owner's area, or is this written into the
16 contract to have the owner hire an industrial hygienist, or
17 is the contractor doing that?
18 DR. PATEL: In our minimum specifications we
19 state clearly that before it can be Conducted; two weeks prior
20 to that they are to inform the USEPA, they are to inform the
2i Department of Environmental Protection in the state, and
22 the Department of Health in the state. The purpose of that
23 is to assure that the EPA and DEP will check that it is
24 going to the proper place. The Health Department has an
95 Occupational Health Program which looks at the people
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1 working at these facilities to see that they are properly
2 protected, and if it happens to be a school or an educational
3 institution, then the Department of Education has at least
4 one inspector going out to every site — every one — not
5 only once a year, for each contractor, but every site. They
6 are going to see that all the set up that USEPA has there,
" and all the specifications are being followed, everything.
8 Then they go while they are removing — we also go in
9 occasionally — not every time, we don't have that many
10 inspectors.
11 Then at the end we get the air results, after the
12 first clean up, second clean up, as mentioned yesterday by
13 Mr. Dorsey, and then only the people are allowed to get back
14 into the building if the results show that they are back to
15 back ground or previous levels.
16 So, yes, we do, I think, go out to as many as we can
1" Now, if it is strictly industrial, then obviously
18 we may get informed and we may not get involved. I am told
19 that the USEPA regulations require that wherever asbestos
-0 removal occurs they have to be informed two weeks prior to
-l removal. Whether these industrial users follow that, I
-- don't know. I know we have had problems.
-3 VOICE: How often do you conduct your training
24 programs for contractors and architects that want to do
25 work with the State?
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l DR. PATEL: It has worked out to be once every
2 month, but we don't have set dates for these. As the
3 Department of Treasury gets requests from people who want to
4 get -on the list and they have enough accumulated then they
5 call the training course. It is the Department of Treasury
6 with the EPA that sets up the training.
7 VOICE: Is there any way of assuring that the •>
8 workmen that are actually there on the site have received
9 this training? I am sure your contractor and maybe his
10 vice president or the superintendent might come, but the
11 day before they go to do the job they hire 15 men off the
12 street to go do the work.
13 DR. PATEL: Of course, you know, like everything .
14 else there can be a problem. We try to work the system as
15 well as possible to help in making sure that the
16 specifications are being followed. In the past we just used
17 to have a letter which we sent out to each person that took
18 the course, and he is required to carry this letter to the
19 work site but we felt that, again, that wasn't sufficient.
20 People forget to bring the letter. So nov/ we have a card we
21 hand out, but that started recently with the last training
22 course, so they have a card with their picture on the card
23 to show that they attended this course and they are required
24 to have that card on them now.
95 VOICE: While I am here, one question for the
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gentleman that just spoke from Pentagon Plastics, I guess
it was.
3 _MR. REINHARDT: He is out of the room.
4 VOICE: Maybe someone else can answer my question.
I think I asked it once yesterday, but I will ask it again.
What is the expected life of an encapsulation?
VOICE: I will answer the question.
First,' >I would like to say that it is kind of
9 ironic that the state with the highest incidents of cancer
10 in the country would take such a dogmatic approach to a
u very complex question. And I realize it is a Pontius Pilate
12 approach, I": cleanse mY hands, therefore I have nothing to do
13 wi.th it any further, by stating removal.
14 Can it be done? I have heard two days of testimony
15 and we can't even find the proper method of detection, let
16 alone the best system. I am speaking for myself. We have
17 done a lot of research, not on a paint product that was
18 developed specifically for asbestos. We didn't take
19 anything we had on the shelf and apply it.
And I can understand your disenchantment. You are
91 dealing with a lot of sealers and you can't even find out
99 where these people are from, what their past history is.
93 They are generally one and two member companies that have
24 no track record. Who have been around and they have just
95 found out there is a lot of money to be made in asbestos
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1 and they are there. That goes for a lot of people that are
2 here. Panel members, I won't say what day, but everybody
3 has a hand in to see what they are going to grab out of it.
4 Somebody is on the dole whether you work for EPA or Battelle,
5 or you are working for any county, there is a reason to get
6 involved, or if you are a manufacturer. We all have this.
7 It is part of the game.
3 But we do have a serious problem and trying to
9 resolve it. The answer is not in a dogmatic approach of
10 saying, total approval. If you take this approach, I
11 understand you did it with a committee. That doesn't say
12 much. That is a lot of anonymity. We all did it in unison,
13 we will hang together. How can anybody refute that? How
14 do you get rid of your residuals? When you get into the
15 duct system, where you can't possibly crawl in there, who
16 are you going to subject to that? I don't care if he is
17 encapsulating with a sealant. How are you going to reach
IS into areas not humanly possible to reach? You can get an
19 extension of an applicator and reach pretty far. You can
20 seal it a'.s.is.
2i I say we all take a close look at some of the
22 materials that are being specified, and I have said this
23 ! before, look at the solids content. You are paying for 90
24 percent water. I heard testimony yesterday where they
25 abraded a surface with 10 strokes and they were able to
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get asbestos to fall off. I have never seen an application
where our material was used like that. We start off at
60 percent solids. If you reduce it 2 to 1 with water,
that is only two-thirds. We ended up with 36 percent on
the first penetrating coat. We say saturate it. Let it
sit there until the following day. Then you go over that
the next day when thoroughly dry.
That is the penetrating layer. It seals the
asbestos as far back as it can go if suitable for
encapsulation if hard enough. If it is soft, we tell them
remove it. I say wet it down with, sealant. Why? Because
if you use a wetting agent in water it will evaporate and
become airborne again. If you saturate and reduce the
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material with 4 or 5 gallons of water, I have plenty of
solids there, and I am speaking for my company.
I think we make a damn good product. I don't
understand why it wasn't approved and it came back. We
did a lot of work with it. We have high solids. We have
more of I would say a yield in terms of that final film.
That next coat is your laminating coat. That
protects it. How long will it last, it depends on the
composition. Not all coatings are the same chemical.
Rubber oxidizes'with age and falls off. If you use
something inert, then can last indefinitely. Take 15, 20
years, and what will happen? Nothing much. That is why
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they retain their color and clarity. How do we get the
penetrating aspect? We put in wetting agents to it. It
3 seeps in as much as possible. We have done a lot of work
4 with this.
And yet I see post office box numbers for people
6 supplying the materials. Who are they? They came out of
7 the woodwork. There is a lot of money to be made. That is
where we get a bad name. New Jersey doesn't want anything
9 to do with it. I can't blame them, but the education
10 process has to continue.
11 I understand what they are going through and
12 they are given a terrific burden, and if you are giving
13 nothing but alternatives that aren't viable, this is what
14 is going out th.ere. You know what kind of money Y.9VL can
15 make on something with 10 percent solids. I would like to
16 sell paint like that and give you the balance, 90 percent
17 water.
18 If we prepare in a scientific manner and work
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19 with the ASTM, I am sure we can come up with a system that
20 will work and be effective and we will have a nice, happy
21 medium.
22 That is all.
23 MR. REINHARDT: Any other remarks?
24 VOICE: I assume the answer is the maximum would
25 be 15 to 20 years. I just wonder if the state is involved
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l in programs that will only last 15 or 20 years for a
2 building, are we going to be putting out good money again in
3 15 or 20 years with the best epoxy coatings that are put on?
4 VOICE: I am Dick Macia, from the Government of
5 Alberta. I don't have any advertising messages, but I am
6 curious about the effect on thermal values, thermal
7 insulation use of sealants. Does anybody know anything about
it? Can you give me any information?
9 MR. SECOR: In general, there has not been a great
10 deal of work done in testing the effect of encapsulants in
11 general on thermal properties. In general there has not
12 been a great deal of work done in this area. However, some
13 generalizations can be made, again, and it is very obvious.
14 Bridging agents lay on the surface. Therefore, probably
15 they are not going to have a great deal of effect on the
16 thermal efficiency of a given insulation system, assuming
17 that it is there for thermal insulation purposes. It will
18 have probably a great deal of effect, perhaps, on accoustical
19 values. Penetrating agents have less effect in general
90 than bridging agents on accoustical values, because they
2i don't form a super thick film on the surface.
22 Penetrating agents, however, probably in general
03 may affect thermal insulating values to a greater degree
24 perhaps than bridging agents because they tend to sink in
05 and provide more binder, thus it cuts down on the so-called
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1 "R" value. We have test data run by the guarded hotplate
2 method that show that there is relatively little change in
3 the "D" factor that you obtain on mineral one inch of ..
4 thickness whether it be encapsulated or not. The changes are
5 too small to be of significance.
6 The reason is, and I think those photomicrographs
7 illustrated that you wind up with fibers being coated but
8 there is interstitial space still there. The air space is
9 what provides the insulation value.
10 VOICE: John Metka, Plexiglass Corporation of
11 Springfield, Virginia.
12 I see a lot of problems, but I wanted to address
13 a couple of them. One, asbestos was specified and used
14 for many, many years basically for fireproofing. Usually
15 when you end up specifying that the asbestos should be
16 removed, let's not even talk about the problems of removal,
17 you are going to have to replace that fireproofing with
18 other materials that do not burn in most cases or you are
19 going to strip the building of its fireproofing.
20 I think someone yesterday :. mentioned about how
21 steel will lose strength very quickly when heated to a high
22 degree.
23 The reason I bring this up is because it is being
24 discussed today and has been for the past two or three years,
25 to my best knowledge, that a lot of materials that we can
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now replace asbestos with mineral wool, cellulose, fiberglass,
vermiculite, all these products, are as dangerous as asbestos
due to the refined manufacturing methods, or they will soon
become as dangerous as asbestos. I am wondering if we are
going to remove asbestos and replace it with something that
is equally as dangerous or close to equally as dangerous,
number one. Number two, the problem seems to me, no matter
what we use we will have to come up with binders to hold the
binders in place.
To say, let's forget about encapsulation and
remove, is smacking the problem in the face. These fibers
will have to be bound together with some sort' of a
:.c.hemical. It seems to me research will have to be made
to come up with chemicals that will bind fibers together and
this is as good a place to start as any.
A lot of people have taken a shot at New Jersey
because of their unwavering position on this, and I do take
exception to it. Part of the problem is th.at when you bid
these contracts, we are not a contractor, but we are a
consulting firm in this particular arena, when people hear
about encapsulation they are expecting a low price, so
gentlemen like you sitting there representing the state beat
the contractors to death. You bury him. You want $1.19
and another guy comes in with $1.12, and you want to hear
$1.09, and it keeps going.
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This gentleman says most contractors don't care
if they cut their products with starch. I take great
exception to that. I don't think we are crazy out here.
We live in the world as everybody else does.
If the prices were higher, and there were better
specifications written for encapsulation for people to bid
the same thing, when you are removing you are bidding the
same thing. I want all this stuff off. You can get a pretty
close price. But when you are specifying encapsulation, and
there are 30 products on the market, and many contractors,
and we are all bidding different penetrating rates,
different equipment, how can you get a price range? I may
come in with one product that is better, and this gentleman
may come up with a product out of a post office box
someplace, and how do you compare that? We need specification^
that say tlxere shall be 5 penetrating coats, there will be
2 bridging coats, and that way we can get people bidding
apples and apples, and see what is going on.
I have listened to these conferences for three and
a half years, that there are so many types of asbestos, so
many-types of applications, so many different types of
slurries and suspensions, that they can't classify them,
i-e - alone say it should be encapsulated with this or that,
or removed. How can you say we should do one thing and one
thing only if we can't specify th.e asbestos product, and how
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1 it should be treated?
2 I would like to hear coTtvments on that from anyone.
3 MR. McMAHON: I will make a few comments. You
4 brought up a very, very important point. Twenty years ago
5 asbestos was required in some cases, in schools, in other
6 buildings, and I submit to you that 20 years ago we had
7 questions. We knew that asbestos caused disease, and yet
8 we went ahead and used — like dummies — and used this
9 asbestos containing material.
10 Right now we have some serious questions on
H sealants and I suggest to you I don't want to be around
12 20 years from now when the sealants fail. I don't want to
13 be the one with the finger pointing at me saying, why did
14 you let them use this sealant? Plow could you do that?
15 DR. PATEL: I would like to mention that last
16 year at EPA th.ey held a national conference on Substitutes
17 for asbestos, so obviously everybody is looking at what are
!8 the substitutes, and at that conference they discussed what
••
19 will be the potential health effects of these substitutes.
20 Again, th.at is a very valid question. I think you raised some
9} • very good questions there.
99 In terms of the requirements for specifications,
03 again I think we feel the same way, and that is why I feel —
94 you recall in our comments we said that the EPA should come
25 up with, clear guidelines. I think it is a Federal agency
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l that has to do this. I don't think it is at the state level
2 that one can come up with these answers. Some of these have
3 to come from the Federal agencies.
4 MR. REINHARDT: One other point with regard to
5 the specifications. I agree with you completely that more
6 tight specifications are needed, but I am not sure that
7 your suggestion about requiring a given number of coats
8 of penetrant or a given number of bridging coats would
9 really deal with the problem, given that some of the
10 products do seem to be so much worse than others.
11 I would be interested to discuss with you other
12 ways in which, you think that encapsulation specifications
13 could be improved.
14 VOICE: My name is Fred Cudwaemer. I am a
15 contractor. I would like to ask the guy from UL — I have
16 read a lot of literature from paint manufacturers that their
17 products pass UL E-84 approval. First off, have there been
18 any systems that have been tested with, an encapsulant? How
19 did they perform? And what is your opinion as to how they
20 are going to relate? And we got into that a little bit a
2i few years ago with adding bat insulation above accounstial
22 sealing type of situations.
23 MR. BERHINIG: Again, this is a panel discussion.
24 Paints have been evaluated in accordance to the-E-84 method,
05 and if you look at E-84 it is to determine the surface
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1 flammability and the capacity to generate smoke from a
2 sufacing material. It could be a paint, a wall surfacing
3 material, many numerous examples. To date I am unaware of
4 any encapsulant being evaluated as a system. They may have
5 evaluated on a noncombustible substrate like a cement board.
6 In th.e ASTM discussions that will begin again
7 tomorrow, what we are looking at there is essentially
8 encapsulants as applied to a substrate that has the same
9 type of physical — in terms of surface flammability and
10 smoke generation capacity as the existing asbestos containing
11 materials, similar properties there. And what we will be
12 discussing tomorrow will be the evaluation in the E-84
13 method and equipment using a test sample that will consist
14 of a substrate like the existing material, plus the
15 encapsulant. And I believe that will address the question
16 directly on what will be used in the field in the future in
17 I terms of if encapsulants are used will the surface
18 flammability be improved or will it be decreased. What
19 will the surface flammability be, and does that comply with
20 the local building codes.
21 VOICE: What about the installations going on now
22 where there is an encapsulant going over fireproofing that
23 has not been tested as a system? Does that violate the
24 uniform building code?
25 MR. BERHINIG: Any contractor or building official
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1 or state of ficials'-that are currently using encapsulants,
2 prior to that encapsulant being applied,there are existing
3 building codes, be it the surface.-flammability or fire
4 resistance. These building code requirements don't change
5 whether the encapsulant is used or not. So the main thing
6 you have to assure yourself is that when this encapsulant
7 is applied the overall fire performance of the structure
8 has not been decreased. You still retain the same type of
9 surface flammability as required by the code.
10 Typically, in school building, I believe the code
11 refers to a flame spread of 25 or less as a cut-off number,
12 Class A material. I will ask you, say if you are using the
13 encapsulant as a contractor, when you apply'it to the
14 asbestos containing material is the flame spread in excess
15 of 25?
16 That is the type of data that when you purchase
17 the material or when you go to th.e state school board, or
18 local government, that they should be asking you to provide,
19 because not only is it a matter of encapsulating the
20 asbestos material, the number one concern in terms of why
21 you are applying the encapsulant. But you don't want a
22 situation resulting which has a fire safety point of view
23 that is more severe, in terms of life safety, than the
24 asbestos containing material would have been untreated.
25 VOICE: I don't think a contractor -- a cementitious
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l ceiling that you are spraying, that is probably gypsum
2 plaster/ you are not going to have a problem, but spray on
3 fireproofing, there is some question as to how much you fill
4 up the void, if you do fill up the void, the transmission
5 of heat, something probably could happen. I, as a contractor,
6 could not say whether it would be —
7 MR. BERHINIG: It is really not in your bailiwick.
8 VOICE: So how can a manufacturer tell an architect
9 that, hey, it has been UL tested, you can go ahead and do it?
10 And it has happened in a lot of cases.
11 MR. BERHINIG: The UL testing with the follow-up
12 service and labels, the sealants, the paints, the coatings,
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13 the spray fibers, one of the things on any of those labels
14 is what does the label signify. Does it signify the
15 application of this sealant on asbestos cement board?
16 The certification givQs: you a number. Is that relevant to
17 what you are doing in the field? Maybe I am addressing it
18 to the wrong person. Maybe it should be addressed to the
19 various building code officials and people that are
20 enforcing the local codes, but when you see the various
2i labels or documents from, whatever the manufacturers are
22 supplying you, is that pertinent to its application? That
93 is a question that building officials r--r.ve to answer, and
94 that is what they are charged to do by law.
25 VOICE: I think what the manufacturers mean to
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state is it is Class A, not combustible, but it does not
2 have a UL rating or a testing procedure like test assembly
3 U-149, which is a system of blank, blank, blank.
4 MR. BERHINIG: Let us use Class A material. Class
A signifies material that has a relatively low surface
6 flammability. Well, that is applied to asbestos cement
7 board probably, and it is at a certain application rate. Is
that the same type of substrate that you .are having in the
9 field? Is it the same type of application rate? The
10 classification applies to certain criteria, certain conditions,
and the ASTM work, maybe another way of looking at it, if the
12 ASTM document proceeds aecording to its original plans, would
be that the encapsulant we are talking about here complies
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designation may be. Here would be a performance specification
16 and the assurance to the building official, or to the owner,
17 that, in fact, this encapsulant was evaluated as being
18 applied to a certain substrate, which is going to be applied
19 in the field, something similar to the asbestos containing
material at a certain application rate, and under these
91 conditions this type of performance exists. The surface
flammability is something, does it meet the current code
requirements, yes or no. Numbers are there for your comparisoi
That is really not available today.
VOICE: I agree.
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1 MR. BERHINIG: There are many different facts to
2 this proposed ASTM standard, and the fact that is applied
3 to fire performance is what is being addressed directly.
4 Again, the goal of the whole thing is will the use of
5 encapsulants detract from the overall fire performance of
6 the building system that the portion of the fire property
7 ASTM standard is trying to address. If that proceeds, you
8 will have your answer that you are asking for.
9 Maybe we are getting more of a panel discussion now,
10 VOICE: If I understand what you implied, probably
11 the implication of what you said xvill set us back another
12 three years.
13 'MR. BERHINIG: I hope not.
14 VOICE: I wonder. I am sure you do recognize the
15 implication, but I am wondering if the rest of the people
16 here do. What you are saying is that UL, or no testing
17 agency that you are aware of, is going to say that the
18 material will meet code specifications, because there is
19 only one person or — the only people that can make that
20 determination are the code people themselves. What you are
21 saying is that this will be determined by testing by UL,
22 maybe Factory Mutual, and ASTM.
23 MR. BERHINIG: ASTM does test methods. Get UL
24 out of it, because I am an employee of UL. Anybody can
25 conduct tests in accordance with ASTM documents and provide
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l the reports if they have the proper equipment.
2 VOICE: Yes. What really happens is that the
3 building codes require testing for approval from approved
4 agencies. In all probability that will include UL7 it will
5 include other testing agencies that they have approved. But
6 the problem to the manufacturer here is that the way you
7 explained it, and probably the way it will happen, is that
8 the material has to be tested in the manner intended for use.
9 MR. BERHINIG: That is always the case.
10 VOICE: But that is the bad news. The bad news is
H that you redly can't even yet identify all of the different
12 kinds of asbestos that there is, whi.ch means that a
13 manufacturer — I am not a manufacturer — but the
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14 implications of the manufacturers — the manufacturer may
15 have 20, ~as many as 20, if it can ever be determined,
16 different substrates to test about or with or for' —
17 MR. BERHINIG: Can I interrupt?
18 VOICE: This isn't free.
19 MR. BERHINIG: Can I interrupt with one statement?
20 There are many different types of substrates available.
2i Currently, though, I cannot use asbestos containing materials
99 in our laboratory. No one else can. So xvhat the ASTM
03 document is going to propose is that there be two substrate
24 materials to be used, only two, and one of these substrate
25 materials would represent, let's say the spray — call it a
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generic name, a sprayed fibrous fireproofing material, and
2 the other substrate would be a cementitious type material.
3 Those are the only two.
In terms of the fire properties from the test
experience that we have had at UL and at other laboratories,
6 we have seen that the existing nonasbestos materials that
7 are available today, that are used today, can adequately
8 represent the asbestos containing materials in the two
9 categories, so I can't duplicate each and every case, but
10 I am trying to simulate the two main types of materials,
11 which are the sprayed fibers and cemtitious materials, so
12 we are down to two.
13 VOICE: You also have th.e responsibility of
14 convincing them that what you say is correct, or ASTM will.
15 MR. BERHINIG: If they want to use the proposed
16 ASTM documents.
17 VOICE: That makes me feel better. The
18 manufacturers couldn't afford to be tested for —
19 MR. BERHINIG: If you want to open up another
20 bag of worms, take fire resistance. We talked about
21 surface flammability being a simple item to test because
22 the test methods are here and ready. This gets involved
23 in the fire protection of building systems, be it a simple
24 case, column beams. Try more complex situation, floor-
95 ceiling assemblies, where you may have a variety of different
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1 types of steel flooring. A more complex area, roof decks,
2 where you have again steel with lack, of stiffness from the
3 concrete, a whole different set of situations, but again
4 the hourly fire resistance is required. So the number of
5 different variables here is immense, and the direction that
6 ASTM is taking is to develop a set of materials that will
7 simulate known properties in terms of building construction,
8 steel floor deck, maybe a sand topping, maybe certain spans,
9 but essentially relying on the expertise developed by the
10 various people that construct these tests on a routine
11 basis.
12 The purpose of the test will be to evaluate the
13 performance of these simulated coating materials with and
14 without th.e encapsulant. Again the purpose or goal of
15 these type of investigations is not to improve the overall
16 performance, but mainly that we do not significantly reduce
17 it.
18 VOICE: I understand what you have said. I heard
19 it referred to that it will be a year and a half before
20 ASTM will even have the tests established. My experience
21 has shown it takes two to two and half years. In the
22 meantime I wonder what the legal implication is to the
23 contractors here. Every encapsulation job they do at this
24 point, there couldn't possibly be a code approved. For
25 the next two and a half, years will all the contractors be
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1 doing non-code-approved encapsulations?
2 In referring to specifications, somebody back here
3 mentioned specifications, like -.specifying five coats. I
4 don't agree with that. I think that th.e best way to specify
5 something is to set standards of performance and then
6 everybody can compete on an equal basis. It is difficult to
7 establish standards of performance, but I think that
8 probably will come out of these committee meetings,ultimately,
9 not how to do it, but what is wanted and what is needed.
10 MR. BERHINIG: In terms of performance, I totally
11 agree with you. And that is the direction that the ASTM
12 standards are taking, performance. Not how to do it, but
13 when it is up there what should it be able to do. Strictly
14 performance.
15 In terms of your otiier question on the building
16 firms, that is a one on one, when you do your work, and I
17 believe it was Minnesota or ^Minneapolis, you contact the
18 local building firm. Whatever is available in the State of
19 New York, he makes his best decision.
20 VOICE: You can't ask a building official a
2i question without having any answers, even I know that. To
22 ask that kind of a question you must already be programmed
23 with an answer or it is his responsibility to say, I don't
24 know, because you haven't convinced him, and as a result it
25 is his responsibility to say, no. So I would be interested
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in hearing from anybody that can say where the contractor in
this room stands.
MR. BERHINIG: In terms of the contractor, when
you are talking to the building official, it would be the
next legal step backwards to the material supplier. You,
the contractor, can't supply the performance data. It
should be the person supplying you the material.
VOICE: Is there one manufacturer in this room —
there are three major building codes in the country, four
if you want to include national, nobody ever does, is there
anybody that manufactures here that meets code compliance
with any of their products in anything concerning the state
of the art?
VOICE: Are you talking about fireproofing,
specifically?
VOICE: Actually I would say that I could refer to
anything that requires code approval.
VOICE: Let's take a surface that had asbestos on
it with, a certain flame spread rate.
VOICE: No, sir, in a manner intended for use.
That is, anybody here done any testing in the manner
intended for use that has been code approved?
VOICE: We are talking about coatings. You say
a manner intended for use.
VOICE: Yes. You manufacture a coating, which you
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obviously do, and there is asbestos on this ceiling, and
2 it is a specific kind of asbestos that I don't know, but
3 you do. Are you in a position to say that you have been
4 tested over that substrate because that is using your
5 material in the manner intended for use and if you have a
6 code approval —
7 VOICE: Definitely not.
8 VOICE: Now, that answers your question, you see.
9 Now, the contractor is really the one that is sitting out
10 here that is wide open, because so long as — it will take
11 ASTM to promulgate the things that you say are.coming out —
12 we then are not in compliance with: the building codes.
13 MR. BERHINIG: We have one other —
*
14 VOICE: I want to make a point on that. If you
15 don't detract from anything on the building code, then I
16 could safely feel that we are in compliance. In other words,
17 if I did not —
18 MR. BERHINIG: Again, the goal of the ASTM work that
19 we are doing is not to improve —
20 VOICE: To maintain.
MR. BERHINIG: Not to specifically reduce, because
22 look, some of the surface coatings, someone brought up about
a gypsum coat. I hate to use numbers, but maybe I will.
Surface flammability of the gypsum"coating may be zero,
25 let's say. The building code says so long as it is 25 or
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1 less. So what happens if I use an encapsulant that increases
2 the surface flammability from zero to 15? Either way you
3 have increased the surface flammability, but you still comply
4 with the code.
5 VOICE: If you have been tested.
6 MR. BERHINIG: It is not a matter of — you could
7 get a higher surface flammability, but in all cases you
8 still comply .with the local codes.
9 VOICE: I am a code official who also has the
10 responsibility for asbestos, okay? And I am one of those
11 building officials. Now, the position we have taken in
12 Alberta is very simple. If the material being used as an
13 encapsulant has a conformity for flame spread rating under
14 E-84, or the equivalent Canadian test, we have been
15 accepting it as an encapsulant over decorative or thermal
16 or accoustical uses. We have not to date accepted it over
17 fire — where it requires a fire resistant rating, because
18 we don't know what it does.
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19 I am looking forward with some anticipation to the
20 time when I can also say, yes, you may use it in that
21 situation. And I think from the code officials I have talked
22 to who get saddled with this job, that this is a very
23 general position that they have accepted so far,
24 MR. BERHINIG: Well, to answer your second question,
25 your second concern, that is one of the items to be resolved
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1 by ASTM and one of the items to be discussed tomorrow, that
2 you will have that type of , say test protocol to answer
3 your question.
4 Anyone else on the general topic area?
5 VOICE: George Grossman, Public Works, Canada.
6 Someone asked the New Jersey gentleman about
7 residual asbestos and hard to get at surfaces, but I didn't
8 hear an answer.
9 I am going back to another point here that was
10 raised, the use of encapsulants for residual asbestos after
11 removal and in hard to get at places where it is impossible
12 to move steel beams, and so on, structural elements. What
13 do you do about that?
14 DR. PATEL: The residual, like I say, in our
15 specifications we call for air monitoring during, after,
16 before. And so unless there is so much, of a residue that it
17 is going to increase the air levels, obviously we consider
18 that to be cleaned up.
19 There is. no problem in terms of using sealants
20 either during or after doing a removal job. We have nothing
21 against that. I mentioned previously that this is not a
22 regulation, but a recommendation, and that as more information
23 becomes available, we are still looking. It is not like a
24 closed question. We should realize that. But presently, yes,
25 that is our position, that sealants are not suitable.
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1 MR. GROSSMAN: For hard to get at surfaces?
2 DR. PATEL: If somebody comes up to us and shows
3 that there is no way of controlling it except for using a
4 sealant, I am sure we would be willing to sit down and look
5 at this and see how we can advise them on their, specific
6 problems.
7 MR. GROSSMAN: So you are sort of open on those
8 points?
9 DR. PATEL: Yes.
10 MR. GROSSMAN: I have another question. This is
11 not in connection with sealants. It is in connection with
12 different types of asbestos and the algorithm discussed. Is
13 there any thought given to considering th.e differences in the
14 types of asbestos* as factors in the algorithm, that is
15 chrysotile and amosite and crocidolite?
16 MR. REINHARDT: Not to my knowledge. I don't think
17 any United States agency has made any differentiation between
18 chrysitile and crocidolite in any regulatory documents.
19 Does that answer the question?
20 MR. GROSSMAN: It does, 'I guess. You are not
21 considering the differences. A lot of people feel there are
22 differences, that some of them are more hazardous than others,
23 That should be a factor, should it not, to be considered in
24 reaching a control mechanism?
25 MR. REINHARDT: Perhaps it should. The EPA's
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position at this point is that there isn't a difference
2 between chrysotile and amosite.
3 DR. PATEL: I think I would like to mention, it is
4 not only EPA, but the OSHA-NIOSH Committee. I don't know
if you know about the seven member committee that OSHA and
NIOSH just discussed occupational exposure, and that committee
and several other reports have stated clearly that all
8 forms of asbestos are considered to present a hazard. So
9 we have more of the cancer, so we have more of the asbestosis,
10 but all has a cancer risk.
11 VOICE: There is no extra weight given to amosite?
12 DR. PATEL: No. It would be harder to get that
13 kind of "information to be able to use it in an algorithm.
14 VOICE: It is a factor when deciding on a control.
15 You can't help but consider the type you are dealing with.
16 DR. PATEL: Right.
17 MR. REINHARDT; Are there any other questions?
18 VOICE: My name is Bill Brennan, with American
19 Coatings Company. I want to thank Forest and the staff, first
-0 of all. I think it was a very good seminar over two days,
21 and the panel discussions were great.
I would like to ask the gentleman from New Jersey,
23 how many schools did you say you had in the system?
24 DR. PATEL: Total number of schools that are under
25 the State Department of Education is 2500.
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VOICE: And you had 250 with friable material?
DR. PATEL: I wanted to mention that earlier.
The State Department of Education did a telephone survey
about two or three years back, and it was not just a one-time
survey, they called several times, and that is how we got
that information, that there are 3,250 schools. Obviously,
since then we realize that there are some not on there
which, do have asbestos, so maybe another 10 percent more or
something. Yes, that is the number that had been used.
And the figure that Tony mentioned earlier and that the
Mt. Sinai group just confirmed, that about 90 percent of the
ones that said they had asbestos did really have asbestos.
By doing a small study of 20 schools out of these 250.
VOICE: You first found about this in 1976?
DR. PATEL: I think '17 was when the State
Department of Education did the original telephone survey.
VOICE: Could you tell me how many schools you
have where the asbestos has actually been removed?
DR. PATEL: I heard just before Doming here about
100 have removed it, so that we feel that the most
hazardous situation has been taken care of in the schools.
VOICE: I take a little rebuttal to your previous
petition. You may be right or you may be wrong. Before
las^: Christmas my young brother died of mesothelioma. He
weighed 203 and finally weight 110 when he went into the
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1 hospital. Th.e death, was horrible. It completely debilitates
2 a man. When he died he was 75 pounds. He looked 250 years
3 old. His hair had turned from black to grey, he was commetic,
4 bleeding from the eyes, on life support, he had mesothelioma
5 and the only thing that is traced to is; these fibers and if
6 one fiber enters the lung there isn't away of reversing this.
7 It becomes immediately irreversible and cancerous.
8 No matter how many studies are done, it behooves
9 everybody to get on the ball and get this rolling. There
10 is no doubt that a removal method possibly is the best
11 method, no doubt about it. I recommended removal in
12 Brownsville, Texas, a job I had been on because it was only
13 $40,000 more to remove 60,000 square feet, and I advised
14 to remove it.
15 I am not making a pitch, for a product. Our
16 product is a 16 year old product submitted to Georgia-
17 Battelle test. It came out as one of the 10 "A" rated
18 products. We have never had a complaint on it. Our
>
19 laboratory is presently conducting an aging test to find out
20 how many years we can actually safely predict that an
21 encapsulant will last.
22 But it is your duty not to let a child sit in a
23 schoolroom an extra day absorbing a fiber into his lungs,
24 even if you have to take the alternative method. There is
25 no field of evaluation at the present time that says that
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1 you can take a contractor and give him one day of lessons
2 and call him a contractor on asbestos removal. There isn't
3 anybody in the country that is that qualified. I don't know
4 how many contractors you list in the state, but I would
5 submit that they probably all are incompetent and you do
6 have a high, incidence of cancer in New Jersey.
7 I am willing to say if you do not open your eyes
8 and take an alternative method, as well as removal, and I
9 am sure New Jersey doesn't have anough money, because you
10 estimate 100 out of 250, people 25 years from now will say
11 New Jersey, the cancer state of th.e nation. Even if you
12 have to encapsulate now, do something, because every time
13 a child sits in the classroom, if they absorb one fiber
14 it becomes cancerous 25 or 30 or 35 years later, and you
15 will have a nation of cripples.
16 If you do encapsulate, 8 or 9 years down the line
17 you may come up with enough funding to go over an already
18 encapsulated job if it hasn't proved good and remove that
19 asbestos. But your duty is to the children in your state.
20 I submit that 15 years from now they will still be saying
21 that New Jersey is in the 18th year of this three-year
22 program.
23 DR. PATEL: I would certainly like to comment on
24 that and say that it seems to me that New Jersey, amongst
25 a few other states, has been most active in doing something
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1 about this health hazard. It seems to me that maybe that is
2 why we have been picked upon. This same thing exists in
3 every other state besides New Jersey, so I think that
4 question should be addressed to every state and, therefore,
5 to the Federal agencies, again, to come up with strong
6 regulations. I don't think it is up to the state.
7 If you can come up with a sealant, and I agree, I
8 have seen your publications, you mailed them to me, I
9 appreciate that very much. And I am very interested in
10 knowing of all the means of control. But if you can tell me
11 that your sealant will not have one asbestos fiber after
12 it is used or any other sealant, you are defeating your own
13 question, having to guarantee there is no fiber in the room.
14 I don' t think anybody can do that.
15 VOICE: You must start somewhere. We have a lab
16 test and we have chemists who are working on the problems
17 you are talking about. Meantime, you take an outfit like
18 the Board of Education in Chicago, Today they are opening
19 up five bids. They opened up 21 before. They have got
20 4 more ready. They are even doing inhouse work they feel
21 they can handle because they were trained under some
22 guidelines. They have taken the position that they are
23 trying something.
24 Most of the work going on there today is removal,
25 and most competent people have recommended removal because
->
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they have schools 16 or 17 years old that have sprayed on
insulation there in World War II. In those schools the
3 insulation was falling off, but th.ey definitely needed to
4 be removed. But they have cementitious walls they are going
to encapsulate, and it will do until next, year when they
have more money.
Everything in this country is down, so the bottom
line is, where do we get the money, I recently ran into a
9 man that cannot raise over $20,000. He has 22,000 square
10 feet and he is going to try to encapsulate with his own
11 help. He can do it. It is an effort on his part to control
12 the atmosphere where the children are going to school.
13 It is a stop gap measure, but he is trying .to control it now
14 with the idea if the economy improves, four or five years
15 down the line he can remove, if necessary.
16 There is nobody to say that a good "A" rated
17 highly approved sealant will not work forever. No one can
18 say that.
19 VOICE: That fellow, and I know you sell quite a few
20 times to owners, how long do they go through your training
21 program?
22 VOICE: We have a different situation. We have
23 a manufacturer and merely subinit the results of the Columbus-
24 Battelle tests to people. We know 5 or 6 highly competent
25 applicators and if someone asks us for a list of qualified
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EPA guideline type of applicators, then we submit the names,
but we have nothing to do with the application. We are
merely manufacturers of a product, and we do not hold
school, although we have the EPA slides, we have all the
.
documents, if you want to come and look at the slides, that
is available.
VOICE: A lot of manufacturers do the same thing.
Here is a good product. It has been approved. It is on.the
Battelle labs. Here is a list of contractors. You don't
have the money, we will sell it to you.
VOICE: You are overlooking something. To get
this program started at its ^inception, it had to start
somewhere. I personally think Mr. Mirick did a hell of a
job, and he did come out with a list of sealants. Some
sealant manufacturers felt offended when they got a
marginal rating. We also submitted a penetrant at that
particular time, and we got a marginal rating, because of
smoke emission. Rather than sell it we took it off the
market and are trying to reformulate it.
VOICE: I am not addressing your product. I am
addressing you teaching contractors to apply the product in
a one day seminar, or sending a salss representative down
to train four or five people because t/.3~ f.on' t have the
money to engage a qualified contractor.
VOICE: In our Midwestern area we have contractors
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1 who will go out and work a day with people who are going to
2 do this, especially in house jobs, and there is no charge
3 on it.
4 VOICE: Your training program is a day?
5 VOICE: We don't have a training program. We try
6 and assist people if they ask. We don't have a training
7 program. We don't charge for anything except our material.
8 MR. DORSEY: We are out of time. I encourage
9 the two or three in the discussion here to connect after
10 the session. As you can see, everyone here has had some
11 experience and opinion about sealants and the use of
12 encapsulanting agents. As I said at the beginning of the
13 session, the purpose of the session was to establish a
14 dialogue, exchange information, primarily research findings
15 on the use of sealants and encapsulating agents. I said
16 before we don't have all the answers. I really appreciated
17 the dialogue and the discussions. I continue to solicit
18 your comments and suggestions.
19 Next year we will be working with ASTM to develop
20 protocols and continue our work with sealants. We do not
2i have money to fund research concerning specific products.
22 The work done at Battelle was about a two year study. We
23 are past that point now. We will not have money to evaluate
24 additional sealants. Our work will have to be with
05 associations, contractors et cetera, manufacturers, to
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1 promote the successful use of sealants.
2 I do appreciate your comments and everyone for
3 coming and being so vocal, and providing me with information,
4 Thank you.
5 MR. REINGHARDT: I have just a couple of
6 announcements before you leave, if you don't mind.
7 Proceedings of this conference will be sent to
8 everybody who signed their names on the list outside,
9 the ones that said "Mailing List" at the top. If you want
10 additional copies of anything that was given out at this
11 meeting, you can call EPA's toll free number, which is
12 listed in the orange guidance document.
13 I want to thank you for coming, too. I think I
have learned a lot in the last few days. I hope some of
15 you have as well.
16 (Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the conference was
17 adjourned.)
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
4 DOCKET NUMBER:
5 CASE TITLE:Conference on Encapsulation of Asbestos-Containing
Building Materials
6 REARING DATE: June 9, 1981
7 LOCATION:"Arlington, Virginia
8
9 I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence
10 herein are contained fully and.accurately on the tapes and
11 notes reported by 'me at the hearing in the above case before
12 "U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
13 and that this is a true and correct transcript of the same.
14
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16 Date: June 18,. 1981
17
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20 Official Reporter
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