t            Transcript  of Proceedings


    Volume 2
  Arlington, Virginia

  June 9 ,  1981
            Acme  Reporting Company
                       Official Reporters

                        1411 K StrMt. N.W.

                       Washington, D. C. 200O5

                         (202) 628-i8S3






                                    ' Tuesday, June 9, 1981
                                     Sheraton National Hotel
                                     Washington Blvd. and Columbia
10                                    Arlington, Virginia
                                     8:30 a.m.

            Dr.  Robert  Sawyer,  Yale University
            John Arpin,  Arpin Products
            Joe  Martin,  Law Engineering Testing Co.
15           Ralph Self,  North Carolina Department of Education
            David Spinazzola, Spinaxxolo-Nash, Inc.
            Forest  Reinhardt, EPA
17           Robert  Berhinig, Underwriters Laboratories
            Magnus  Hienzsch, Architect
lg           Anthony McMahon, N.J. Department of Environmental
19           Dr.  Dhun Patel, N.J.  Department of Health
            Eugene  Secor, H. B. Fuller Company





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                      !_ N_ D E X

PANELIST:                                      PAGE:

Dr. Sawyer, Yale University                     11

John Arpin, Arpin Products                      25

Joe Martin, Law Engineering Testing  Co.         35

Ralph Self, North Carolina Dept.  of  Educa.      44

David Spinazzolo, Spinazzolo-Nash, Inc.         55

Robert Berhinig, Underwriters Laboratories     107

Magnus Hienzsch, Architect                     109

Eugene Secor, H. B. Fuller Company             112

Anthony McMahon, N.J. Dept. of Environmental
             Protection                        118
Dr. Dhun Patel, N.J. Dept. of Health
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              MR.  REINHARDT:  Good morning.

 3             I would like to start by sort of giving a brief

 4   overview of what we are going to do today.  I am going to

    talk briefly on the topic that I was supposed to talk on

 6   yesterday, which is our work with ASTM and our ongoing

 7   research on encapsulation.  Then we will take five minutes

    to set up the panel.

 9             I hope to get a floor mike today so that when you

10   ask questions from the floor everybody will be able to hear

n   them.

12             I think the speakers yesterday pointed out a

13   number of problems with regard to encapsulants and .

14   encapsulation, and EPA's program which addresses those

15   issues, and I am going to talk for about five minutes

16   today about how EPA proposes to address some of those

17   issues.

18             One problem that I think is obvious from Mr.

19   Mirick's speech yesterday morning, is that Battelle doesn't

20   have the money to test and retest every new formulation and

21   product that comes out, so that may be inhibiting the

    introduction of new products on to the market, since most

23   contractors and building owners seem to be reluctant to

24   accept products which haven't been submitted to some kind

25   of standardized testing.

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              I think that the presentations of Mr. Lory and

 2   Mr.  Hubbard pointed out the need for field testing of

 3  .encapsulants.   Since we can't really run laboratory tests

 4   on actual asbestos containing material, it is not clear to

    what extent you can take the test results that you get on

    these mineral  wool matrixes and apply them to 50 percent

 7   amosite or 50  percent chrysotile, or whatever.

 g             There is a problem that EPA isn't in a position

 9   to approve encapsulants.  To address all of these problems,

10   Battelle's and EPA's lack of money, the need for field

    testing and EPA inability to approve encapsulants just for

12   policy reasons, we are working with ASTM to develop some

13   kind of performance standard for encapsulants which will

14   include both laboratory tests and f iels tests, and which

15   will allow manufacturers to have any product they want tested

    at their own expense.

17             The  ASTM Subcommittee that is working on this

lg   standard is a  Subcommittee of ASTM Committee E-6, which

19   looks at building materials and tests for building materials.

20   The Subcommittee is composed of manufacturers of

01   encapsulants,  of contractors, of bureuacrats like myself,

22   and representatives of testing laboratories, like

03   Underwriters Laboratories.

04             At this point we have tentative lists of tests

25   that we intend to require in the laboratory and in the field,

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 1   and  now we have  people on the Subcommittee who are expert

 2   in each particular field writing each particular tests.

 3   The  lab tests will be  conducted on a specified nonasbestos

 4   containing material, probably similar to the material that

 5   Bill Mirick  used in his tests at Battelle, and at this

 6   point we  plan to require tests for cohesion and adhesion,

 7   in other  words,  which  is the effect of the encapsulant on

 8   the  cohesive strength  of the test matrix.  Tests for

 9   penetration, in  the case o.f penetrating sealants, tests

10   for  flexibility, surface abrasion, resistance to surface

11   impact, fiber release, fire resistance, surface burning

12   characteristics, including flame spread, smoke generations
13   and  possible toxic gas generation and, finally, aging.

14            That may seem like a rather extensive list of

15   tests.  We have  tried  to keep the field tests to a minimum

16   since they have  to be  conducted each time somebody intends

17   to do an  encapsulation job.  The cost can quickly become

18   ridiculous.  We  do, however, want to  -.make sure that the

19   field tests  establish  that the encapsulant will perform  well

20   on the asbestos  containing material on which it is actually

21   used, and the field test which ASTM is planning to require

22   is for cohesion  and adhesion, a bond test, a fiber release

93   test and  penetrat^cn,

24            We are now  in the process of writing the individual

25   tests.  Once the tests are written and the Task Group that is

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 1   writing the the standard decides they will approve them, it

 2   typically takes about a year before the standard is

 3   finalized, because it has to receive the approval of the

 4   Subcommittee, the approval of the full Committee and,

 5   finally, the approval of the whole society.  ASTM are

 6   effective immediately upon society approval, although a

 7   mechanism exists whereby changes can be made, if necessary.

 8   My personal estimate is that it will probably take us about

 9   six more months to put together a standard with all the

10   individual tests that we like well enough to send it to

11   the Subcommittee to see if they approve it, so we are

12   probably talking about 18 months before the thing hits the

13   street.

14             Membership on the ASTM Committee E-6 is apparently

15   open to everyone, and it is my understanding that they are

16   always glad to accept new members, and we would like to

17   encourage input into the process, because the more people

18   we h.ave participating before we actually put the thing in
19   the books, the fewer changes we will have to make later,

20   and the happier everybody will be.

21             Now, if it is going to be another year before

22   ASTM actually finalizes its performance standard, it seems

23   reasonable to try to think os something to do in the

24   meantime, since that is quite a while.  EPA is planning to

25   produce its own interim test protocols for the laboratory

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 1   and for the field, to conduct a quality assurance program

 2   for the laboratory tests to make sure that the labs conducting

 3   the tests are competent.

 4             We want to get EPA out of the testing business

 5   for practical reasons, primarily because we just can't

 6   afford to do it any longer.

 7             The laboratory test protocols which we are now

 8   developing will more or less take over where the Battelle

 9   investigations left off.  Once the test protocols are out,

10   manufacturers of encapsulants will be able to submit their

11   products to whatever laboratory they want, and the

12   laboratory would then conduct the tests according to the

13   protocols that EPA has given them.  And then we are sort

14   of counting on the manufacturers to make the information

15   that comes out of these tests available to the public.

16             The test procedures that we are contemplating now

17   are similar to Battelle's tests for toxic gas generation,

18   smoke generation, flame spread, abrasion and impact, and

19   fiber release, and these laboratory tests would be conducted

20   on a nonasbestos test matrix, probably similar to the one

2i   that Battelle used.  In most respects, then, these test

22   procedures will be very similar to the ones that Battelle used.

93             The main difference between the two phases of the

24   program, the one that we are just completing and the one that

95   we are just moving into, is that any laboratory, and not just

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Battelle will be able to conduct the tests, so manufacturers,

presumably, won't have the problem of having a formula they

think is great and having Battelle say, sorry, EPA hasn't

given us enough money.  We can't test it.
             We  do  plan  to have  Battelle  run  certain  randomly

 6  selected tests on each encapsulant.  That  is  going to  be  our

 7  quality assurance program.  And we strongly recommend  that

 8  before any  asbestos containing material  in a  building  is

 9  encapsulated  the contractor conduct  a  field test using the

10  encapsulant that he plans to  use  and using the  application

11  techniques  that  he plans to use,  and we  are also in the

12  process of  writing test procedures for those  tests.  They

13  will probably include such things as curing,  the effect of

14  the encapsulant  on the adhesive and  cohesive  strength  of  the

15  asbestos containing material,  resistance of the encapsulated

16  material to abrasion  and impact,  some  sort of fiber release

17  tests, possibly  a penetrating test for penetrating sealants,

18  and the test  for film thickness for  bridging  sealants.

19            We  are not  contemplating any kind of  quality

20  assurance for the field tests,  and I would like to stress

21  that these  aren't regulatory  requirements.  We  hope that

   people will conform to them in a  spirit  of cooperation, but

   we don't have the legal clout to  make  them use  them.

             The test procedures  that we  are  developing now

   will then be  superseded by the ASTM  standard  when  the  ASTM

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    standard is finished.  I can speak for EPA a little bit

    more strongly than I can for ASTM.

 3             We are very anxious to get as much input as

 4   possible into the test protocols once we get them finished.

    If your names are on the mailing lists out there, we will

    try to send you copies as soon as we are done, and we would

    like to have your comments, if you think that other tests

    are necessary, if you think that certain tests are redundant

    or unnecessary, we would like to know about it.

10             Up to this point I have been talking more about

    encapsulants and choosing between different encapsulants

    and so forth than I really have about encapsulation.  EPA's

    position on encapsulation is drawn primarily from Bill

14   Mirick's research and is substantially similar to that

15   position.

16             The little booklet called "Guidelines for the Use

    of Encapsulants on Asbestos Containing Materials," which

18   was in the green folders which you picked up yesterday, was

19   written by EPA with a lot of consultation and help from

9Q   Battelle, but if there are mistakes in the document, they

,?1   are EPA's fault and not Battelle's.  I am not sure if you

09   have had a chance to read it yet.  If you do get a chance,

    I would be very glad to know what you think of it, even if

94   it is not complimentary.

              The document talks first about the advantages and

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 1   disadvantages of the use of encapsulants.  It talks about

 2   limitations that EPA perceives as affecting the use of

 3   encapsulants.  For instance, we don't think that

 4   encapsulation should be considered on material which was

 5   water damaged.

 6             The second chapter of the document talks about

 7   the difference between bridging and penetrating sealants,

 8   and we feel that each is appropriate.  I realize that some

 9   of you regard that as an artificial distinction, and I

10   would be happy to talk with you about that.

11             The third chapter talks about how one should go

12   about selecting an encapsulant.  That is something that we

13   have a lot more work to do on.  That is why we are working

14   with ASTM.

15             After a brief look at latex paints, which EPA

16   regards as suitable only on cementitious materials in good

17   condition, the document goes on to talk about proper

18   application procedures, which is actually  going to be

19   addressed in the panel here in a few minutes.

20             Does anybody have any question?

21             VOICE:  When will your interim guidelines be

22   completed?

23             MR. REINHARDT:  I believe they will be cc:vvlo;i_;

24   about a month after we manage to put our contract in place.

25   There has been a considerable amount of .difficulty. ..in SPA

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 l   with contracts.  I would imagine that they would be out by

 2   the end of July.

 3             Anything else?

 4             VOICE:  Who is the contractor?  Have you selected

 5   one yet?

 6             MR. REINHARDT:  The contractor who is going  to do

 7   the quality assurance business?  It is going to be Battelle.

 8             If we can take about five minutes, then, and set

 9   up the panel.

10             (RECESS.)

11             MR. REINHARDT:  I would like to introduce our

12   distinguished panel here:

13             Immediately to my left is David Spinazzolo of

14   Spinazzolo-Nash, Incorporated, a contracting firm based in

15   Richmond and Hampton, Virginia, which does removal as  well

16   as encapsulation work.

17   .       '   Next is Dr. Robert Sawyer of Yale University, who,

18   I  think, doesn't need any introduction.  He is recognized as

19   one of the country's foremost experts on asbestos, and he is

20   going to begin the panel by talking briefly and showing some

21   slides.

22             Next is Joe Martin who holds a Master's Degree in

23   Engineering from Vanderbilt University.  He is an asbestos

24   consultant.

05             Next is Ralph Self who has been working for  two

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    years in North Carolina's  program to  address  the  problem of

    asbestos in schools.

 3             Mr. John Arpin who  recently retired after  30

 4   years of conducting materials  research and  development  for

    the Army, and has spent about  five years  formulating

 6   encapsulants.

 7             Finally, John Wilson, who works with me at the

    EPA, and runs the Technical Assistance Program, which

 9   provides information  to schools and local officials.

10             Dr. Sawyer?

11             DR. SAWYER:  What I  would like  to do is run

12   through a slide collection that I have on the general

13   subject of asbestos to try to  .make sure that  we understand

14   some of the basic characteristics of  asbestos, some  of  the

15   basic abilities and deficiencies  of measuring systems,  some

16   of the basic areas of ignorance that  exist  in our knowledge

17   of what is going on with asbestor related diseases.

18             After some  of the comments  I heard  about

19   yesterday's presentation,  I would like to entitle this

20   "Getting Back to Reality." I  would like  to discuss  what we

21   do know, and I would  also  like to outline what we don't

22   know about what we are doing  and  about what we are trying

23   to solve.  With that  in mind we will  run  very quickly

24   through these slides.

25             (SLIDE:)

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          We are going to be skipping quite  a  few of  them

because I don't think they are relevant to the purpose of

this discussion.  We will just go right through  them.

          This is the slide to discourage any  note takers

in the audience.


          These are asbestos related diseases.   The pertinent

item here, the main characteristic of all these  diseases,

is their long latency period.  They are indeed progressive.

You can remove an individual from exposure and the disease

process continues.  There is a very extended latency  period,

from 10 to 50 years, depending on the disease  we are  talking

about and also the dose that the person is exposed to.  Those

two items have tremendous significance to.the  epidemiology

of the disease and also to the legal aspects of  asbestos

related diseases.


          All of the malignancies, of course,  with the

exception of the mesothelioma can be caused  by other  agents.

The mesothelioma more and more looks like a  truly asbestos

related disease.  Legally it establishes asbestos exposure.

This is a legally accepted fact right now.   Whether it is

true biologically or not is still a question.


          This is an important slide.  This  describes the

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    most important characteristic of asbestos fibers, that they

2   have aerodynamic capability, and no matter what system you

3   are using in abatement you will try to compromise this.

4   This is a family of curves th.at describes settling effects

    of asbestos.  The human blook cell is 7 microns in diameter.

    If you get a fiber 5 microns long and 1 micron wide it

7   takes 4 hours for that fiber in still air to settle from

8   a ceiling.  You can be talking about times that really gets

9   up into the number of hours.  That example there shows 80

10   hours.  This- gives you some idea of the aerodynamic ability

    of the fiber.  This means that it is available for human

    respiration, and again, because of its size and mas.a and

13   weight characteristics, it is able to penetrate the human

14   defense mechanisms and be retained in the body, where it

..   can go to work.

16             (SLIDE.)

              This is a school ceiling where the little darlings

lg   have been engaged in a removal program.  This is a library

    shelf with asbestos, 20 percent chrysolite material in it,

    which, will be available for reentrant into the atmosphere.

0    Asbestos on books.  Fortunately, these are at Yale University,

.-,..,   so no student got near them or opened them.

..,3             (SLIDE:

.,              This is a rare slide of a maintenance worker actually

    wearing a respirator.

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 2             This is Ellis Island.  All that  lagging is 60 to

 3   80 percent amosite, very dangerous stuff.

 4             (SLIDE:)

              This is a slide showing some of  the experimental

    spaces where we got a lot of our data.  This is some of the

    data we collected on airborne asbestos levels under various


 9             (SLIDE:)

10             For your convenience, these have all been put on

11   a five cy.cle semilogarithmic plot.  These  show ranges of

12   fiber concentrations, running from essentially nonmeasurable

13   levels with the optical microscopy system  up to 100 fibers

14   per CC.  This is what encapsulation is all about.  This is

15   why we try to reduce the ability of friable asbestos

16   containing material to disburse fibers into the atmosphere.

17             As you can see up there, the fiber counts have a

18   tremendous variation and variability in range, depending

19   upon what is done to them.  Most of the things up there

20   have to do with disturbance and contact with friable asbestos

21   containing material and having caused a subsequent fiber

22   release in the local environment.

23             The significance, if you apply the OSHA standards

24   to this —

25             (SLIDE:)

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                                                           15 •

              These  are  the  OSHA limits  for airborne fiber

    exposure, so  some  of these  situations,  such as  machining

    down  fibers,  some  custodial work,  some  renovation,  vandalism,

    and wet removal, will exceed present OSHA standards.   Again

    the relevance here is that  encapsulation hopefully  will

    inhibit the fiber  release and prevent this from happening.

              This is  the inner section  of  the NIOSH proposed

    0.1 level and some of the data that  we  found in buildings.

    The contaminant  that we  are talking  about, the  main point

10  here  to look  at  is it is durable  and aerodynamic and  that

11  the friable material is  most efficient  in releasing it.

12  It is  important  to realize  that contamination can occur by

13  fallout, contact,  and reentrainment.  It is episodic.   It

14  is activity related.   And these two  things, again,

15 encapsulation  should  compromise the ability of the .friable

16  material to release  fibers  during this  episodic activity

17  related release  so as to prevent  the contact dispersal and

18  the fallout with encapsulation.

19             (SLIDE:)

20            Here is  reality now.  There are some  problem areas

    in asbestos abatement or evaluation  of  asbestos problems.

    Number one is the  basic  bulk sample  analysis.  There  was a

•73  widespread lack  of confidence in doing  a bulk analysis , in

24  other words,  looking at  a friable asbestos containing

95  material and  knowing whether there is asbestos  in it.   The

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greatest fault that you will  find  is  the  use  of phase

contrast optics instead of microscopy to  do the analysis.   You

will get a lot of positives back when it  is really  cellulose

or iBibrous glass or other fibrous  components.   It will not

really be asbestos.


          Standard air sampling.   We  will get to that  more

in a moment.

          Analysis of bulk samples.   PLM, polarized light

microscopy, that using the characteristics of birefringence

and extinction is the methodology  of  choice to look for

asbestos materials.  XRD is a good complementary system

but does not give you the morphology  of the shape of the

particle.  There are problems with XRD, such  as masking,

and the inability to detect asbestos  at low concentrations.

So we are stuck with the PLM  as the best  bet.


          This is a well known analytical laboratory that

really didn't know what they  were  doing,  but  they have a

very good reputation and in all areas are extremely

competent.  The bottom line is the false  positives  and

false negatives and the results considered acceptable  for the

purpose.  On the samples sent to them we  took 50 samples

and you may as well have flipped a coin.   In  48 percent of

the time they gave the decisionmaker  the  correct information.

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 1             Th.e culprit is the  fact  that  the  technician  and

 2   the laboratory director were  using the  phase  contract

 3   optics for identification of  asbestos.  So  anyone who  sees

 4   this sli.de should be warned.

 5             (SLIDE:)

 6             Air sampling.  This  is very important.  Number  one,

 7   you air sample by pumping air  across as. fiTfcer and collecting

 8   particulate matter on it and you should know  the volume of

 9   air that you have pumped across the collecting  device, th.e

10   filter, and then you should have a way  of identifying  what

11   you have caught.  Knowing that you can  count  what you  have

12   caught, and knowing the volume of  air,  you  .can  get  a

13   concentration of air.

14             In the asbestos business th.e  optical  system  is

15   the standardized methodology.  Th.is is  phase  contrast

16   microscopy.  That is boosted  light microscopy.  It  lets you

17   see particles a little bit easier  th.an  you  can  with a  normal

18   microscopy.  It is at 45 magnifications, which  is pretty

19   good for a light microscope.   Right off the bat there  are a

20   few problems with that.

21             You are looking for  particles, a  very important

22   term, particles that are 5 microns in length  and have  a

23   3 to 1 aspect ratio.  The main problem  with the system is

24   th.at it doesn't count asbestos fibers.  This  is the standard

25   technique of counting for airborne asbestos,  but it doesn't

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count asbestos.  It counts particles that fit that criteria,

so you will count cellulose, glass, nylon,  rayon, carpet

fibers, and clothing fibers.  You follow the rules by the

standard method, you will overcount at low concentrations.

          One other problem is that you will miss a lot of

the asbestos fibers that are smaller than 5 microns.

Estimates of the ratios of airborne particles longer than

5 microns to shorter than 5 microns may be in the range of

1 to 100 or 1 to 10.  It depends how closely you look.

Here again th.e problem is that we know that the smaller

fibers will remain airborne.  The larger fibers will fall

out a lot faster.  So this microscopy section is skewed in

the direction of large fibers that probably aren't going to

hurt people anyway.  That is the other problem.

          Medically, "we still don't know what causes asbestos

related diseases, what is th.e exact mechanism, and also what

fiber size population has the most potential for causing a

pathologic effect.  It looks like th.e fiber diameter may be

somewhere between a tenth of a micron all the way up to 10

microns.  No one is really sure.

          The optical microscopy system, it must be remembered

is a highly effective system for its intent.  Its intent

was to monitor airborne fiber concentrations in situations

where you knew that there was asbestos in the air.  It is a

highly effective system for that, so it is highly effective.

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    system in a plant where you are manufacturing asbestos

    insulation or where you are bagging asbestos, so you know

    what is in the air is probably asbestos, so the particle

    you count has some relationship to the problem.

              When you start using 'this method for hazard

 6   assessment, you get into problems.  You are counting other

 7   fibers.  Number two, you are missing most of what is going

    on, and it really can't be used for h.azard assessment.

 9             What can be used?  There are experiments using

10   this technique and then going further using a PLM trying

11   to get an idea of what in the air is really asbestos.

12   Should you look for th.e PLM after you have counted the

13   fibers?  Ballpark half birefringence and -angles of

14   distinction and you can divide your answer in half and

15   come up with the answer.  This is nonstandard technique.

16   It is experimental and it can't be relied on for legal

17   purposes.

18             So we are left with TEM and transmission electron

19   microscopy, which is the definitive technique for measuring

20   asbestos.  Along with this you can use selected air

21   defraction  energy techniques to identify any particle that

22   you are looking at.  The trouble there is that there is no

23   technique for doing TEM.  In other words, given five

24   laboratories doing transmission electronic microscopy, they

25   are probably doing it with 5 different techniques and you are

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-1 i

     going to  get  5  different answers  with almost no relationship

     to  each other.

              As  a  consultant I have  the ability to send a

     sample to a laboratory that I know damn well will come back

     with a zero answer.   I know what  labs do that.   I also

     know what labs  will  give you 2,000 nanograms if you send

     them a sample of  a blank.  Right  now I would term the status

     of  a standardized technique is about the status of a holy

     war.  There has actually been violence at scientific

     meetings  when people tried to put their techniques across.

              There is something else wrong, too.  As physicians

     or  epidemiologists we really don't know what the results

     mean so far as  biologic effect.   If someone says to me, I

     would like  to do  a TEM, I shudder because what  I can give

     them with the laboratories that we have and the techniques

     that we have, we  are pretty confident we are coming up with

     the right nanogram level, but no  one really knows what that


              The linking o-f mass measurements of the amount of

     asbestos  airborne and biologic effect is tenuous indeed.

     Politically,  though, if you tell  someone, especially an

     advocate  of some  type, that there are 50 nanograms in the

03 i   buildina  air, I don't know what  that means.  No competent
" ii
     physician can tell you what that  means, but the advocates

     will tell you what that means, and the lawyers  will tell you

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    what that means.   It  is  bad news.

              What  you really have  to  do  is  make up in your own

 3   mind what you think it means, or what the lawyers  may think

 4   it means 10 years  from now.

              The way  we  do  this is usually  we do community

 6   sampling down on th.e  street, outside  control sampling,

 7   and then building  sampling under various conditions.   Also,

    we do, of course,  internal checks,  double blind sample

 9   labeling, and control techniques using blank samples  and

10   loaded samples, to always record what the electron microscope

il   is feeling like on the day that we  do the measurements,

12   because that means a  lot, too:  wh.eth.er you have paid  your
13   electric bill or not. You end  up with knowing pretty

14   closely what level of asbestos  is  in  your building under

15   different conditions, but once  again  we  are really not  sure

16   what these mean unless the levels  are up in the 3  or  4

17   hundred nanogram range.

18             One investigator has  put  in writing — by the way,

19   for any lawyers in th.e audience, it is written, therefore,

20   it can be used  in  court  — that 100 nanograms is a dangerous

2i   level.  I don't know  where in the world  that investigator

22   got that information, and I don't  know what it means.

              3ut,  anyway, that is  the  situation with  air

    sampling,  So,  gentlemen, there is  no Santa Clause with air

    sampling.  There are  problems with  every technique.  You have

                        Acme  Reporting Company
                                 (2O2I 628-0388


 1   to understand this — I am not saying don't use these

 2   techniques.  I am not saying that.  All I am begging you

 3   to do is to understand the facts, the reality  about optical

 4   microscopy aiid about transmission microscopy.

 5              (SLIDE:)

 6             That is a portable air sampler.

 7              (SLIDE:)

 8             That is a portend radical with a particle that

 9   will be counted as asbestos.  In essence, that would not

10   be counted because it is sticking out at both  ends.  Here is

11   some other reality.  This is effects of air sampling

12   techniques.  It all depends on what is going on.  You  can

13   go in and get any count you want using optical microscopy,

14   even in an asbestos bagging plant.  If you go  at  2:00  o'clock

15   in the morning with nothing moving you don't get  fiber counts.

16              (SLIDE:)

17             This is counter technique comparing  the systems at

18   very low magnification ranges.
19              (SLIDE:)  Let's talk for a brief moment here as to

20   what we are seeing.  Okay, here are some other facts you

2i   should realize.  This is the effect on normal  activity,

22   custodial work between dry and wet techniques.  The little

23   hatch marks show the drop in fiber concentrations once you

24   start using chemical cleaning agents or wet methods.   The

25   one on the right is by standard exposure and we eliminated

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 628-4888


    the by standards and eliminated the  exposure.   It  shows  that

    yes, indeed, asbestos fibers  get  through  barrier systems.

 3   These are double barrier systems,  polyethylene  sheeting  under

 4   normal operating conditions,  and,  as you  can see,  with dry

    removal, th.at is on the left, you  get very high counts,  1A

 6   fibers per CC.  Outside the first  barrier you are  still

 7   getting 6, and outside the second  barrier, v/hat looks like

    normally clean air, it was 2  fibers  per CC, and that was done

 9   with, a standard optical microscopy.  You  can multiply those

10   by anywhere between 10 and 100 to  get the real  fiber counts.

11   Wet methods, you start lower  and end up lower.

12             CSLIDE :)

13             Encapsulation.  Wh.ere are  we seeing the  use of

14   encapsulation?  Advantages:   it controls  exposure  and

15   usually is the most rapid and economical  — usually — under

16   certain conditions.  But remember  that you are  keeping the

17   asbestos th.ere, and if you put a powers aw through

18   encapsulated material you are still  going to get a lot of

19   fibers in the air.

20             Weight of the sealant may  cause delamination.   The

21   biggest problem in the field  is not  having to do with the

    encapsulating agents, they all seem  to do something of

    benefit and on occasion often they will reactivate

    components in the  fiber's matrix,  and you are engaging without

25   intending to in a  removal operation.  Delamination, I feel,.

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2O2I 628-1888


 1   is the thing we see to be the biggest problem where the

 2   interface adhesion between the material and the substrate

 3   is not sufficient and the encapsulant will cause the material

 4   to delaminate and come down in larger lieces than it did

 5   before.

 6             We feel that you have to keep watching the material,

 7   If you leave the asbestos in the building, the encapsulation

 8   is not removal.  You still have it there.  Where is it

 9   most appropriate?

10             CSLIDE:)

11             We find that the most appropriate use of this,

12   at least in industry, is wh.ere fiber management is required,

13   and you are dealing with a complex surface.  It is not

14   considered to be application wh.ere you can remove.  But if

15   you are talking about highly complex surfaces, lagging, a

16   pipe farm, machinery spaces, inaccessible areas, this is

17   where encapsulation really begins to pay off and becomes

18   quite cost-efficient.  It sure beats removal.

19             CSLIDE:)

20             This is applying this.  I don't think I have

21   anything more to say h.ere on encapsulation.

22             (SLIDE:)

23             This is my famous slide.  This shows the weakest

24   link in a respirator program.  It also shows the function

25   of a well known contractor.  This, believe it or not, was a

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 1202) 62S-4S83


 1   removal job.  You can see how well draped  the  customer's

 2   shelves were.  The worker is shuffling  dry asbestos off

 3   the floor.  This was about  30 percent chrysotile.  This is

 4   a photograph taken with my  lunch box camera.   You  can  do  air

 5   sampling and photography through a lunch box.

 6             The worker is wearing his respirator around  his

 7   neck.  This is what I call  the talisman type of avoiding

 8   malignancies.  You have to  remember that here  you  are

 9   dealing with a very weak link in the system.   No matter how

10   good the respirator technology or how much money you are

11   dumping on the cost of respirators, you have to remember

12   that the guy won't wear them unless he  is  motivated to do

13   so.                                         '

14             This is all I have to go through. . I will keep

15   the rest of my comments until the questions.

16             I just found out  I am moderating the panel.  I

l~   would like to introduce John Arpin.  I  know his work quite

18   well.  If John would step up here and say  a few words, I

19   would appreciate it.

20             MR. ARPIN:  You put me under  a pretty heavy

21   limitation, a few words.

22             Starting on an idea or a proposition that we are

23   confronted with, with the asbestos, is  a good  deal like

24   starting on a watermelon with no knife.  You don't know

25   exactly how to get into the thing or where to  start.   But

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 (202) 626-4888


 l   I have been asked to speak concerning  asbestos  control and

 2   the techniques of it, and the  general  thoughts  and attitudes

 3   of asbestos that are confronting  the general  public.

 4             The control of asbestos  removal  is  one  of the

 5   things that I have been concerned with for a  long time.   And

 6   I have been asked not to make  this look like  a  sales  pitch,

 7   but I do find that it is necessary, .to a certain  extent,

 8   to tell you the type of thing  that I have  done  over the past

 9   five years.

10             I was concerned with, of course,  the  encapsulation,

11   and this was the general thought  of the general public,

12   arid then, as one gets into this particular field,  you find

13   that there is more than one way to look at it.  First of

14   all, the people that started into the  operation knew

15   absolutely nothing, and that is not intended  to be a  slur

16   or a damaging remark, because  there was no experience.

17   You could not go to a reference library and say,  under

18   certain conditions you will follow certain procedures in

19   the control or the encapsulation  of asbestos.   But it was

20   just plain hard thinking, and  that was the only way that

'-1   we had to proceed.

22             So, then, the next thing that we found  out  is the

23   condition of the material.  We go into a cereal:;  room and.

24   we find that the ceiling is in excellent shape  and from an

25   aesthetic value it looks very, very good,  and from a

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 (202) 528-4888


 l    mechanical  value it is good,  but th.en we find a new term

 2    that  has  come  up,  and I call  them "dog ears," these little
 3    pieces  of asbestos that are hanging from the ceiling in a

 4    state of  deterioration.  And  then again, we find a

 5    condition,  much like the one  that Dr. Sawyer just shoxved,

 6    concerning  the pipe lagging over on Ellis Island.  So you do

 7    run through these  various extremes.

              So what  I have actually found that is necessary
 9    in order  to do a job is, first of all, to equip yourself,

10    and I did in this  respect.  I developed an encapsulant that

     was inorganic  in nature, as is asbestos, and the next thing

12    that  concerned -me  was the removal of asbestos, and why

     certain techniques should be  closely adhered to, and the

14    medium  which they  use to make the working of it or with it
     safe.  And  then this resulted in what I term a removal liquid.

     And then  again, with the pipe lagging, this is a very
17    definite  hazardous area, and  my experimentation carried me
18    into  this ,  even to the extent of designing various types

19    of equipment th.at  are vital for the handling and the safe
     handling  of pipe lagging.
              People don't realize some of the hazards unless

     they  have been exposed to it.  For instance, when there is

     a case  that took place at an  ammunition base in New Jersey

     where the removal  of a piece,  of pipe lagging was in action

.,0    and they  cut the binding material that held it in place,
                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 623-4883


    only  to  find  out  that when it landed from a position

    overhead it was completely filled with this like flaky

 3  chrysotile asbestos, and it just filled the entire

 4  atmosphere, showered the person over the head,  and even

    though he was wearing equipment there was evidence of it

 6  having penetrated him.   So I took this type of  thin:g as

 7  an  absolute need.

 8            So  then the next thing that concerned me was the

 9  disposal of it.   It has  been very aptly said, and very

10 . realistically said, that man is the only animal, the only

11  animal that has a life today that will consciously or

12  unconsciously foul his own nest, and this is precisely what

13  we  are doing  from the environmental standpoint.  And the

14  way we are disposing of  the asbestos, it is required that we

15  put it into a polyethelyne bag, then rebag it and then take

16  it  to the disposal area.  And now the buldozer  comes along

17  and moves this from place to place, and having  been in the

18  construction  business for a good many years, I  have yet to

19  see a gentle  buldozer or a buldozer that will pick up the

20  polyethelyne  bag  loaded  with the contaminant and carry it

2i   very  gently,  as a housewife would a baby, and place it in

22  an  area  where it  eventually is to be confined.

23            So  these are the type of things that  are

24  bothering and this is the type of experimentation that I

25   went  into, having been 30 years in research and development,

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (203) 623-1888


 1   and unique somewhat, and I don't mean to say this in a

 2   bragging manner, but my scope of experience has been very

 3   wide,  and I was exposed to many things, including asbestos,

 4   so I have actually been engaged in it for a period of 4 or 5


 6             As I said, I was supposed to speak on the

 7   encapsulation and the control technique.  Now, the thing

 8   that actually horrified me is on one occasion I saw a

 9   contractor, a reputable contractor, and please don't think

10   that I  am making disparaging remarks or remarks  ithat could

11   be construed as being highly critical.  I am doing this for

12.  the education of people that are concerned.  He had what we

13   call an Indian pump.  It contains a tank and you pump up
14   pressure and squirt the liquid, whether it is an insecticide

15   or fertilizer, to its designated point.  He was wetting

16   down the ceiling with this hit or miss proposition, and he

17   was using a surfactant wetting agent, I don't know what type,

18   to wet  the ceiling down.  It was much like a person cutting

19   down a  pillow and shaking it, because there was a general

20   cloud that followed the contact of this water with the

21   asbestos, and he was filling the air to an extraordinary

22   hazardous level.

23             And then, when he had wet this to his satisfaction

24   to where it was dripping in some spots and completely dry

25   in others, then they used an ice chopper to remove the

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 12021 £23-4838


 1   material.  And this is one of the things that is a common

 2   practice.

 3             And then Dr. Sawyer showed another picture where

 4   the man was wearing his talisman around his neck and hoping

 5   that this  was going to keep the stuff off — a good deal like

 6   a good luck medal or charm — and throwing it into a bag.

 7   And there  were a lot of the solids going in, but the solids

 8   we are not concerned with.  The solids will fall to the floor

 9   and remain there.  It is the dust that we are concerned with.

10   That is a  hazardous material.  That is the part that can be

11   injested into the body's system and somehow or other act to

12   cause cancer.

13             So we are confronted with a very, very unusual

14   situation.  The first thing that everybody thinks is,

15   get rid of it, regardless of how, but get rid of it.  So

16   down in Florida you could not even mention the word

17   encapsulation because it was a dirty word down there.  One

18   particularly articulate politician — and again, that is

19   not a dirty word — apparently was able to convince the

20   members of the school board and the principals, meaning the

2i   general public, if you have got something you don't like, and

22   it is in the way, get rid of it.  So they pulled it out, and

23   again, I was talking with the experienced people and they

94   said it was a regular sacrifice, from a health standpoint,

25   the way this v/ork was being done .

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 623-4338


              Now, the contamination  that  follows  is  another

    tremendous evil that has  to be  dealt with.  Again, we  are

 3   almost hopscotching around this entire  thing by not  looking

 4   at the details of the areas where  the  contamination  is found,

    the air circulating systems.  It  is a horrible condition.

              I was in one school —  and I  will not refer  to

 7   the specific school — and I said,  "What  are you  doing to

 8   contain the dust fibers from your air  circulating system?"

 9   They said, "Well, we have got the filters."  I said,  "What

10   do you mean, you have the filters?"  And  they  had the

11   conventional glass fiber  filters,  which are fine  for,  shall

12   we say, the average sized particle  that you can see, but the

13   ones that you can't see,  the fact that  you can't  see  them

14   people are inclined to say, well,  they  don't exist,  and

15   they turn their backs on  them.

16             But I took a material that I  have also  developed —

17   again, I don't want this  for a  sales pitch but it is  still

18   vital in my explanation — whereby  I treated a couple  of

19   these filters — and they had been changing them  even  up

20   as far as every three months, considering them still  an

21   effective piece of equipment — but after having  treated

''9   them they were horrified  to find  out that in less than 3 days

    they were showing evidence of needing  change,  and to  show

    that they were merely recirculating the dust.

25             So all of these things  were  confronted  with  and

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 !202I 626-4686





















we definitely have to face them and there has to be some

specific action taken, and it should be a tremendously

ethical thing that a person must consider in order to

develop this.

          A person would not just go to work and use a

latex paint and say, well, here, this is great stuff, and

we will put it on there.  Now, they don't know the effect

of it, they don't know the deterioration rate of it, or the

depth of penetration, because any of these materials — not

any of them but many of these materials — are applied and

they have the action of a bridging agent.

          A "bridging agent" is a word that does not

neces-sarily need any explanation, but it does.  It covers

the surface, and the surface that is being covered acts

precisely in the same manner as a filter.  When you apply

a substance that has a good deal of body to it, the first

part of it that is going to be stopped is that portion which

immediately contacts the surface.  And the further it goes,

the vehicle will proceed to solids, and the solids are left

anywhere from an eighth to, in some cases — in very

generous cases — up to a half inch penetration.  And the

further it goes, the smaller amount of solids is allowed

to continue to the substrate.

          So then this resolves itself down to the next

thing, that in order for this to penetrate or to really do

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                                   12021 528-4S88


















a good job, the particle sizes must be considered in the

evaluation of the bonding agent or the penetrant, and the

sealing capabilities of this material.

          So that covers pretty well that portion of my

talk.  And I would appreciate any questions that may be asked,

and I hope I have some of the answers for you.

          And the next thing, of course, is the disposal.  Now,

North Carolina has taken a beautiful attitude towards it and

they are doing their level best and encouraging inquiries

concerning how to dispose of this material and how to treat it.

          Now, there should be a part per million test that

would evidence that this material when it is treated —

treated and then primarily disposed of — that it would hot

infiltrate the drinking water.  Because some of these

particles are so small, I have heard it said, I think it

was Dr. Silocoff stated that some of these fibers, and it

is almost impossible to believe, are one ten thousandths

diameter of a hair.  Believe you me, that is getting down

into mighty fine particle sizes.  And the ground particles,

such as the sands and clays and so forth, would even allow

the water to carry this into the areas that could penetrate

at many miles away from the original source.

          So this pretty well covers the point of discussion

that I had entered into, and I hope I have stimulated a few

questions.  Whether I am able to answer them or not entirely,

                     Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 628-4888


 l   but there are  certainly  plenty  of  people  to back  up.   I have

 2   got this panel here,  so  I  thank you  very  much  for your

 3   indulgence,  and hope  to  hear  from  you.

 4             DR.  SAWYER:  John,  thank you  very much.

 5             John has  given us an  overview from his  very

 6   impressive range of experience. I know of his work, and he

 7   has seen a lot.  I  think he has not  only  given us an overview

 8   here, but I  think I heard  him give a plea for  adequate

 9   specifications on asbestos. Any asbestos  abatement work,

10   you should have the benefit of  adequate specifications for

11   any contractual activity.  I  think these  are the  sine  qua

12   non of a good  asbestos job.   You just have to have good

13   specifications and  they  have  to be written in  the proper
14   fashion.  John Wilson, I hope,  will  make  comment  on this,

15   with the AWCI  specifications  that  are under consideration

16   right now.   I  think that is an  excellent  piece of work.

17             Mr.  Arpin also said something that I consider to

18   be very, very  important, and  that  is that removal is not a

19   panacea.  There are problems  with  removal.  Removal has

20   the potential  of tremendous exposure levels, tremendous

2i   contamination  levels, and  if  the conditions are right,

22   tremendous potential  for worker exposure.  Let us not  forget

23   the workers  who are doing  the work in any abatement

24   procedure.   Even under the best conditions, even  with

25   adequate respirator protection  and protection  programs,

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 12021 628-4388


    there is a potential  in  any  abatement  activity  for

 2   significant  exposure,  and  this  is  one  of the  responsibilities

 3'  that we have, to  consider  the health of the worker,  not just

 4   the building user.  I  find this to be  a common  thing.

    Everyone is  very  interested  in  the building user,  and  the

    responsibility  remains to  protect  the  workers involved in


              I  would like next  to  introduce Joe  Martin  who is

 9   going to describe —  I am  delighted that he is  here  today

10   because of my personal feeling  for a tremendous need for

11   more understanding of  air  sampling and what its limitations

12   are, what its attributes are, and  to understand how  it can

13   be used in this problem.

14             So, Joe,  I  will  let you  take over now.

15             As you  can  see,  we are each  giving  presentations.

16   we are going to save  our questions until after  we  are

    finished.  As soon as  I  see  enough people falling  asleep

    we will have a  coffee break.
19             MR. MARTIN:  -Thank you.   I will try to keep  this

20   as brief as  I can so we  can  get to the questions.

21             I  am  going  to  try  to  talk specifically about

    encapsulation as  opposed to  other  types of abatement and

23   problems with those.

24             First of all,  I  am going to  be doing  some  testing

25   in the future at  some  sites, some  field testing.   The

                        Acme  Reporting Company
                                 (2021 623-JSSg


 l   process as with ASTM is going to take at a minimum about

 2   18 months.  One of my concerns is what happens in the

 3   interim of that.  There are still going to have to be

 4   decisions made as to what to do and how to do it.
 5             Once material is sampled and identified and the

 6   problem is presented, you do not just leave it there

 7   because political and social pressure is going to

 8   precipitate some sort of action.  The people who are going

 9   to make the decisions have to have some good information,

10   some good technical engineering information, so one of

11   my problems is, what happens in the interim while we are

12   waiting on ASTM procedures?

13             I have performed some after the fact testing of

14   sealants as well as opposed to testing them before.  This
15   was in conjunction with what Jim Hubbard was talking about

16   yesterday.  One of the things that was presented was the

17   :'.:; monitoring results of after the encapsulant was placed.

18   Most studies that I have done, we have tested the workmen

19   who were also working in the area after it is a sealed area,

20   and their exposure was not as high as before, but high

21   nonetheless, just due to the activity that they were

22   involved in.

23             One of the problems with that is the communications

24   problems involved.  The encapsulant was put on and it was

25   supposedly told, not necessarily by the manufacturer or the

                        Acme Reporting Company





















contractor/ but the implication was that now your problem

is taken care of, and the communication problem that existed

is the fact of how well is it taken care of.

          The verbiage was, now your problem is solved, but

the maintenance people go ahead and continue with their

daily activity of wiring new outlets and things like this,

and even though their exposure is at the site, time

weighted averagewise, it was still rather high.  It

certainly exceeded the medical monitoring limit of 0.1.

          So there are definitely problems in communication

that have to be worked out, and that involves either an

operation maintenance manual in which there are guidelines

so that when people go into an area people have full

knowledge of what they are getting into so they can take

precautions or be informed of the fact that they are going

into that sort of problem.  Not only does that keep

communication problems at a minimum, but it also reduces

liability problems.

          One•thing I want to talk about is air monitoring

of these things.  I have seen a lot of time people, when I

write a set of specifications and needed references as far as

someone's past experience, we demand several things, but one

of those is past air monitoring results as some indication

of what their performance level is.

          The air monitoring results that we get are very

                    Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 62S-4BS3
















    poor in the fact of not their results but the way that they

    are presented.  You have to keep in mind that the air

    monitoring phase contrast was intended for an industrial

    setting.  The whole standard is based for an industrial

    setting.  The test mechanism that was used was developed for

    an industrial setting.  Given that we need to back off and

    look at it a second.

              You just do not go out and take a filter, put

    it in a casette, turn on a punch, come back and take the

    filter off and look at it under a microscope and say, this

    is what we have.  The punch has to be calibrated with a

    primary standard traceable back to the Bureau of Standards. .

    Those punches have to be checked periodically during the

    sample taking because temperature affects that, flow

    resistance, if your fiber count is high enough, is going to

    change your flow rate, you have to be sure that the sample

    is not intentionally being contaminated or cleaned, which

    happens often, so that is part of it.

              The microscope that you are using has to be

    calibrated.  The portend radical, the grid type thing in

-1 ;| the slide with the fiber crossing it, that has to be
-- :: calibrated.  The person who is doing the count has to have

-    sufficient experience as far as judgment levels, and he has

-4  ! to be checked.

              You have to have an internal quality control

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 628-1888


 1   program by which you can check the sample to see if it can

 2   be statiscally — be determined to be an out layer.  In

 3   other words, is that sample rejected?  Is there too much

 4   variability?  Does invesitgator "A" come up with a different

 5   answer as opposed to investigator "B"?  There are tests

 6   for that.

 7             Not only that, but if you do a sample and you are

 8   going to base it on a time weighted average as the OSHA

 9   standard is based on, you have to have at a minimum six

10   and one half'sample duration according to the NIOSH.  Once

11   you get that and you get your average fiber count, all you

12   get is an average fiber count.  You have to report your

13   upper confidence limits, your lower confidence limit, and

14   your coefficient of variation.

15             When you get down to most of the cases that we

16   are involved in, after the fact or ambient level testing,

17   or whatever you want to call it, your coefficient variation

18   is going to be outrageous.  It is going to fall apart and

19   you are going to look at the test and indicate that the test

20   is no good.

21             So when you get the air test from the contractor

22   that says, look, we are clean, we didn't find a single

23   fiber — okay, we found one, but calibrated our average fiber

24   count was zero, you need to demand all their quality

25   assurance records, how they reported it, and how long the

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 628-4888




















 sample duration was and all these other factors.  Then you

 say, okay, according to this test this is what we found.  But

 how does that help you to make a decision?  It really doesn't,

 Let's be honest.

           I have gone ahead and contracted out with Jim

 Hubbard and done TEM, and as Dr. Sawyer said, there are

 problems with the methodology there, but at least you can

count fibers that are less than 5 microns, and at least you

 can count asbestos fibers.  So you can try to get some sort

 of mechanism by which you can get a handle on something to

 get some information to make some sort of decision.  Which

 is about as clear as mud, I know.

           So what does that tell us?  Well, it tells us that

 air monitoring, except for industrial level settings,

 according to the OSHA standard or the OSHA methodology, is

 really no good for situations that at least I have been

 involved with.  The test was not intended for that.

           I think that that is a topic that needs to be

 briefly discussed and brought up, and at least verbalized

 as far as its problems from a technical point of view.

 As far as testing encapsulants, it is still a very

 difficult thing to do as far as testing their performance


           As far as the Battelle study, we have hashed that

 out and so forth and so on.  My involvement has been after

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                                 C2O2I 52S-US8S


 l   the fact,  coming in after someone- has done an

 2   encapsulation and try to evaluate how well that encapsulant

 3   works.   In a lot of situations it was a situation in which

 4   the encapsulant should not have even been considered, in my

 5   opinion,, primarily due to the fact of the vandalism

 6   involved.   In most cases it was the cheapest thing to do as

 7   opposed to removal, so they opted for that decision, and the

 8   level of activity and the degree of vandalism was not

 9   alter&d, .-  so you still have the same problem and the

10   encapsulant was not good as far as abating the asbestos

11   contamination, just due to the population, not due to the

12   encapsulant.

13             Also, you run into problems as far as what sort of

14   tests do you want to run.  You have sheer capacity tests

15   that you can run, adhesion, cohesion, flame spread,humidity,

16   pull off tests, and so forth.  All these tests can give you

17   some sort of indication, but you have a problem getting money

18   to do that from people.

!9             What we have tried to do in conjunction with

20   that is if there is to be some degree of vandalism or some

2i   degree of disturbance, whether it be maintenance or whatever,

22   is try to simulate some sort of damage.  And the results

93   that we have gotten, limited as they are, are very congruent

04   with what Dr. Sawyer's results were, in the fact that your

25   custodial  people still have the episodic exposure.

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                                 1202! 623-4883














          The information we have is, as I say, still

limited, there is no statiscal analysis on it because  the

sample size is not sufficient to do that.  We did not  have

the funds to do that.  So it is an observation.  I think

we need to talk .about one, the air monitoring and the

methodology involved with that.  I think it is extremely

important that when you see air sample results from an

independent lab or an industrial hygienist, or from a

manufacturer, or from a contractor, or from whoever, that

you understand the problems involved with it, the methodology

involved with it, and when you see those results what  they

mean and what questions to ask as far as quality control,
quality assurance and qualifications of .the people doing

the work.

          DR. SAWYER:  I would like to commend Joe for, I

think, a lucid expose of air sampling.  You have all now

totally lost confident in it, probably.  I think that  he has

outlined field testing for us and has brought up the legal

and political realities of having friable asbestos in i.a

building.  It kind of doesn't make any difference what is

there so long as it is asbestos and you are probably going

to have to do something about it, either institute a very well

disciplined management system, remove it, encasulate it, or

even enclose it, and those are your choices.

          The very distant pool alternative is to let  it sit

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                             '202' S2S-<:£ea


 1   there without taking any action/  any  documented  action that

 2   can not be attacked legally  down  the  road.

 3             I was delighted with his outline of  the  technical

 4   realities of NIOSH-OSHA air  sampling  technique.  The  levels

 5   of confidence involved when  you are dealing with low  levels

 6   of fibers, and you:, are invited to look at the Beard  and

 7   Zumwalt reference document available  to you through the

 8   Government Printing Service, the  statements contained

 9   therein on the requirements  for so many fibers per field,

10   to give you a level of confidence, so your air sampling

11   result will probably approximate  what is  really  suspended  in

12   the air.  That is a very important fact.

13             Number two, always retain that  information,  as

14   you so well pointed out, that it  doesn't  have  to be asbestos

15   when you count it.

16             So there are some  definite.problems  with this.   I

17   would take issue with you on one  point.   You said  that the

18   air sampling, and I quote you, "Is no good."   I  think  from

19   a technical point of view I  would agree with you 100  percent.

20   When you come right down to  it, the political  or legal effect

21   of air sampling is to establish compliance with  existing

22   standards that OSHA has set  forth, legally, even though you

23   and I —

24             MR. MARTIN:  I was talking  from the  technical

25   point of view.

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                                 (2021 523-4883


 l             DR. SAWYER:  And Number two, is to intimidate

 2   the contractor.  I mean this quite sincerely.  I think that

 3   Joe would agree with me that one of the techniques that you

 4   can use to lower the real fiber count, for instance in a

    removal job — I am talking about reality, not what we are

    measuring but what is really suspended in the air, and what

    people are really breathing.  That is what we would like to

 8   reduce*  That level can be reduced by bringing an air

 9   sampling device into the room, I don't care if you have a

10   filter in it or not, so long as it makes noise, and you

11   turn it on and the contractors and the workers know that

12   they are being watched.

13             We have documented the effect of that.  That is

14   an excellent control technique.  We have documented the

15   effect of that.

16             I think his outline of the problems, the reality

17   of the push, the limited orifice device, the calibration of

18   that, the microscope, and most importantly, the person

19   behind the microscope doing the counting, that this is a

20   whole system and there are problems with each and every

21   step along the way..

22             Again, we are saying this system has its benefits,

    it has its deficiencies, simply understand what they are

    and make your decisions on that basis.

25             Ralph Self I would like to bring up next.  Ralph is

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                                 I2O2) 628-4888


 1    an engineer who somehow, I guess as a political punishment,

 2    was brought into controlling the State's asbestos control

 3    program.   I had the true pleasure of working with Ralph for

 4    a fairly  concentrated period of time in developing the

 5    State program for his asbestos abatement program.  I have a

 6    high degree of respect for his accomplishments, not only

 7    his efforts in the State of North Carolina,  and I think he

 8.    can bring to us a very good representation of what is really

 9    happening in the field.

10              MR.  DORESEY:  Could we take a break for about

11    10 minutes?  The coffee is set up outside.

.12.             DR.  SAWYER:  I have a quarter after.  If we could

13    be back at 25  after, 10  minutes, then we will go to Ralph.

14              (RECESS.)

15              DR.  SAWYER:  We would like to get started.  I

16    have said enough nice things about Ralph previously, so I

17    will skip it now so he can get going here.

18              MR.  SELF:  As  you can all tell from what has been

19    said so far, there are quite a few unresolved questions about

20    the whole asbestos problem, encapsulation, what have you.

21              For any of you that get involved,  and some of you

22    may already have in a large scale, in the asbestos program,

23    you need  to be aware of  the five stages of any controversial

24    program such as this.  The first stage, you have a lot of

25    enthusiasm.  The second state, you get disillusioned.  The

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 628-488S


 1   third stage you have panic.  The fourth stage is the search

 2   for the guilty/ and the fifth state is the punishment of the

 3   innocent and the final stage is awards and decorations for

 4   the nonparticipants.  That is because they had sense enough

 5   to get involved.

 6             But I don't claim to be an encapsulation expert,

 7   and so most of my statements will be general, and I will

 8   tell you briefly what we have done in North Carolina and

 9   try to bring into that the role that encapsulation has

10   played or has not played, and what it may plan in the future,

11             In our initial efforts with the asbestos problem

12   in North Carolina, we started in full force in February of

13   1979, and when we first started, sealants were more or less

14   relegated to the back burner at that time because of some of

15   the lack of a lot of research and a lot of knowledge on it.

16             In early 1979 the Governor of North Carolina

17   appointed an asbestos force to look into this problem in

18   schools and in other public buildings.  These task force

19   members came from various department of State Government.

20   There was a representative from the Building Code Division

21   of the Department of Insurance, a representative from the

22   Community College Division, a representative from the State

23   Department of Public Instruction, which was myself, a

24   representative from the Division of Health Services, who is

25   Pat Curran.  He is an industrial hygienist.  And John

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 528-4883


     Emerson from the State Construction Office,  and several

     others.  One was from the Washington Division of the Labor

 3    Department.

 4              As you know, most of the pressure  has been on

     school buildings, and naturally,  I have had  as much concern,

 6    probably more,  than others on the task force.  John Emerson

 7    had a lot of concern, being responsible for  the State

 8    buildings.   And Pat Curran, who works with the Division

 9    that has responsibility for overall health issues in the

10    State of North  Carolina, was very much concerned.

11              So as it ended up, the  ones of us  with the most

12    concern naturally ended up having to pursue  this thing

13    the most rigorously.

14              Now,  one big advantage  we had was  having on this

15    task force Pat  Curran who is an industrial hygienist.  He

16    worked in asbestos and industrial setting for 10,12 years,

17    so much of the  — he was fully familiar with the esoterica

18    that comes out  and relates to asbestos, so we missed a lot

19    of the hassles  that I think a lot of people  normally have

20    with asbestos programs, hassles of picking competent lags

     and how to take air samples, and  worker protection, and

     good work procedures.  So this put us way ahead.

23              So when we started out  one of the  biggest problems

24    we had was in the area of exposure assessments.  Just

     how to get a handle on what you had to do, how to evaluate

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                                 I2O2I 628-4388

                                                           48   '

 l   an asbestos ceiling and  fireproofing, what have you.   And,

 2   so, we struggled with this a while, and we managed to  get  a

 3   handle on it by prevailing on  Dr. Sawyer here, who sent one

 4   of his people down to help us  evaluate three or four

 5   schools in western North Carolina.  Later on Dr. Sawyer went

 6   with Pat and me to help  evaluate a school and  look at  some

 7   of our reports.

 8             This is where  we first started using the eight

 9   factor algorithm, which  is by  no means a tool  that will

10   automatically solve the  asbestos problems.  However, we

11   found it to be a good point of departure for analysis, an

12   excellent yes-no, indicator, yes, meaning some sort of

13   control measure is advisable,  and no, meaning  that a

14   maintenance management program could be sufficient maybe

15   for a few years.

16             Several factors in this algorithm will give  clues

17   as to whether or not encapsulation could receive consideration

18   For instance, the accessibility factor, high accessibility

19   of asbestos on walls that can  be reached, or low ceilings

20   where tall kids can jump and hit it, this automatically

21   rules out encapsulation.  Extensive water damage rules out

22   encapsulation.  The combination of a lot of water damage

23   along with a deteriorated condition of the ceiling of  course

24   rules it out.  And the high friability factor  gives you a

25   caution flag, as you have heard, about using sealants.

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 I2O2I 628-4388


 1              So using this algorithm along with other

 2    considerations, such as the type of construction, the

 3    substrates to which friable materials are attached, we

 4    have used this.  .Pat Curran and I have visited I guess around

 5    40 some, school districts and maybe evaluated a couple of

 6    hundred buildings, more or less, and these reports which

 7    we prepared to school boards and others have varying degrees

 8    of specificity*

 9              If removal is in our opinion the only alternative,

 10    and we can pretty well document this, we go ahead and tell

 11    the school board or the State.  If it is a State building

 12    Pat does that.  If deferred action with a maintenance

'13    management program is clearly indicated, then we say this.

 14              In the not so obvious cases where the assessment

 15    scores are in the middle ranges, we left the final abatement

 16    selection decision to the building owner and his architect.

 17    However, in our initial state in this program, we did not

 18    even encourage encapsulation because of the lack of data

 19    on the subject.  We more or less held back in this area,

 20    I guess, waiting and hoping to profit from the mistakes

 21    of others.

 22              We find more and more, as we look at more and more

 23    buildings, that you can't discard any abatement method

 24    because there are just thousands of situations that come up,

 25    and if removal is the only alternative you look at or

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                                  I2O2) 628-4838


    enclosure or encapsulation, you box yourself  in  in  a hurry.

    And as more and more  information  is coming  out on sealants,

 3   we are leaning more and more  toward the  use of some of these

 4   sealants in school buildings  and  other buildings.

              Now, some of the  things that are  coming out  these

    days which I have concern about — I  may be right and  I may

    be wrong but I feel like I  should bring  it  up — in some

 8   instances I think we  may be trying to overkill the  problem.

 9   There is lots of talk about using electron  microscopy  in

10   field applications, and I am  not  sure that  this  is  an

11   appropriate way to go.  This  seems to be overkill to me,

12   and I think you have  seen Dr.  Sawyer's slides and his

13   discussion on the fiber release test, and he  said the  other

14   day that some people  were shooting at him about  it, and

15   that was me, I guess, that he was talking about.

16             The thing that has  occurred to me about the  fiber

17   release test, which I brought up  to Jim, and, of course,  is

18   open for discussion,  is that  before you  encapsulate a

19   friable asbestos material, one of the criteria is that it

20   not be accessible, that it  not be where  it  can be damaged.

21   I just have doubts about having to do these kind of tests

    on an encapsulated ceiling, certainly if that ceiling  —

23   if the choice was properly made to encapsulate to begin with,

24             One of the  other things that I have heard pop up

    is some architects or engineers,  what have  you,  writing

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                                 12021 628-4888


 l   specifications,  tend  to  find  out what  is  the  ultimate  in  the

 2   field of asbestos, what  is  supposedly  the ultimate

 3   protection or  the most conservative  thing to  do,  and then

 4   they write it  in their specifications,  think,  well, I  am

 5   covered.  I have gone the  ultimate route,  such as say

 6   specifying aerial respirators for any  asbestos job, and say

 7   that is it, that is the  ultimate protection.   Of  course,

 8   these type of  things  possibly can cause you more  problems

 9   than they protect you from.

10             One  thing we have done in  North Carolina, or a

11   couple of things, toward getting good  specifications which

12   you have heard mentioned,  is  that most of our asbestos

13   protection we  encourage, and  there have been  one  or two

14   owners who didn't go  along with it,  the school board,  or  what

15   have you, is that an  architect or engineer be obtained to

16   write the specifications,  manage the project,  and handle

17   the administrative things.  We think this is  the  appropriate

18   thing because  these people know how  buildings are put

19   together; they know what fireproofing  is  for;  they know what

20   has to be put  back.   So  this  seems to  be  a logical approach.

21             The  other thing  we  are trying to get into wide

22   practice is the  use of an  industrial hygienist to actually

23   monitor the job. These  are people that have  specific

24   training and knowledge about  worker  protection in industrial

25   settings, so it  seems to us this is  the most  logical type

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 1202) 628-4888


    person to have involved in an asbestos removal or

    encapsulation project or enclosure, to monitor, take air

    samples, and even do some instruction or correction, what

    have you, of the contractor on proper worker procedures.

              That is all I have.

              DR. SAWYER:  Ralph presents things in a very

    matter of fact fashion.  I can tell you that I did witness

    his work in North Carolina, and I think a lesson could

 9   perhaps be learned from this.  I have an extremely high

10   opinion of what happened there.  The effectiveness,

11   including the cost-effectiveness and the appropriateness of

12  ; what was done in that State.  And I think the thing to be

13   learned when I sat back and tried to figure out what made

14   things click there when they didn't work other places, was

15   that perhaps the combination of an engineer, an industrial

16   hygienist, a high degree of competence in both, the use of

1"   a lot of shoe leather and a lot of common sense really pay

18   off in that State.

19             You can take each one of those things and learn a

20   lot from it.  I don't think the combination of an engineer

21   and an industrial hygienist was unique; however, I think that

22   they kept the right people out of the problem.  One of the

23   worst examples in the nation of a state's function was in a

24   northeastern state where the State Department of Health

25   became involved.  It turned out to be a total disaster of

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                                 12021 628-4388


 1   mismanagement, and a terrible record of incorrect bulk

 2   sample analysis, because the problem, since it was a

 3   medical problem, went to the State Department of Health,

 4   and the asbestos analysis, therefore, was done by the

 5   State Department of Health Laboratory, where neither

 6   equipment nor competence existed.  Politically the use of an

 7   outside laboratory was blocked.

 8             I think that the shoe leather used in this

 9   situation is a major factor in the success of the state's

10   program.  Ralph got out and travelled, so you had a

11   uniform estimation and evaluation of a number of different

12   sites, and he also said, the other thing he said that I am

13   very happy he brought up, is that each, site was different,

14   so the more uniformity, the more continuous follow up you

15   have by a small group of individuals, probably the much more

16   intelligence will be brought to bear on the program, the

17   learning curve will be higher, and you will get a better job

18   done.

19             I think that he brought out — in his list of

2o   things, I did not mention the algorithm or the rating system.

2i   I also think that in this state the appropriate use was made

22   of the 8 factor rating system.  This is the use that was

23   originally intended.  It helped to give you the answer, is

24   abatement action necessary or isn't it?  And Ralph said that

25   it helped them — it was an adjunct — it complemented their

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                                 1202) 523-4888


 l   own common sense,  and I think this is where the rating system

 2   belongs.

 3             He also  mentioned something else that I don't think

 4   he  verbalized as strongly as I would like to right now, and

 5   I think he meant to say this.  The use of the rating system was

 6   to  give  them a yes-no answer.  It was used as a binomial

 7   decision  tree, should you do something or shouldn't you.  It

 8   was not  used to select the abatement methodology.  This is

 9   extremely important and widely misunderstood.  You don't use

10   the rating system  to pick your abatement method.  It is true

11   that the  higher the score the more likely you are to end up

12   removing, but that is about it.  He said it gave him, and I

13   quote,  "clues as to what system to go to."

14             For instance, looking at the factors of

15   accessibility, water damage and friability tells you a

16   tremendous amount  so far as the appropriateness of using a

17   sealant.   There are other factors, cost-effective factors,

18   complexity of surface you want to cover, and so forth, but

19   the main  factors to be used as clues or points of discussion

20   are accessibility, water damage,  friability.

2i             He also  brought out some tremendously important

22   ideas here on adequate specifications, appropriate

23   specifications. Hopefully the EPA people here today will

24   bring us  up to date on the specification package.  Which, I

25   mentioned before,  is a very good piece of work.

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                                 (2O2I 62S-S888


 1             Ralph brought out a good point, the American

 2   tendency to go to high technology to solve a simple problem

 3   and end up falling on your face.  The answer to worker

 4   protection, the answer to abatement programs is not high

    technology, it is probably common sense and the selectee

    use of high technology when appropriate.  Type C respirators,

    fancy sealants, high energy system removal methods, probably

    can get you into more trouble and defeat the purpose, and I

 9   think the comments about the proper use of qualified,

10   knowledgeable architects and hygienists are pearls that he

    has given us today.  Not bad, Ralph.

12             I would like to introduce David Spinazzolo of

13   Spinazzolo-Nash, Incorporated, as our next speaker.

14             MR. SPINAZZOLO:  I have got to confess a certain

15   amount of intimidation here.  I am the last guy to speak, I

16   have sat here throughout this entire panel and heard everyone

17   talk about the various problems with contractors and putting

18   things in to intimidate them.  I have got the eminent

19   Dr. Sawyer here rating our presentations.  I am glad to have

20   this opportunity 'to speak to you, seeing that I am the only

    contractor on the panel here, and I am awfully glad to

22   hear people talking in terms of reality.

              By way of introduction maybe I can tell you a

    little bit about why I am here today.  We are a contracting

25   firm that does this type of work. We do both removal and

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 12021 623-1888


    encapsulation.   As  Mr.  Arpin says,  that is not meant to be a

 2   plug,  that is  a way of  giving you background on myself.

 3             We have no particular enthusism for remedies per se,

    We  feel  more that you should approach a remedy based on its

    proper utilization.  I  feel somewhat compelled to sort of

    carry  the  contractor's  banner here  for a second.

              When we talk  about reality, the reality of doing

 8   asbestos work,  people have said,  and I want to echo here

 9   today, that there is a  great and tremendous need for good

10   specifications.  We have specifications unlike what you see

11   in  North Carolina,  where they utilize architects and people

12   from the engineering discipline as  well as people from the

13   industrial hygiene  discipline.  We  encouter a good many that

14   have simply a  hygienist.  There are a number of areas in

15   which  they are not  necessarily well versed.

16             We have observed on several ; projects where a

17   contractor will remove  the asbestos under the close

18   supervision of the  hygienist and a  good job is done and the

19   contractor fireproof s and there is  no sign of the hygienist.

20   As  to  whether  that  was  done according to the current

•ll j| building codes, that remains to be  questioned-
•j-2 .';           In writing specifications there seems to be a

    -sr.dency for generalization, generalization in the

24 |j respiratory protection, in the protective garments, in the

    approach.   To  give  you  an example,  you can remove pipe

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2O2) 628-4838


 1   insulation —  that would seem to  be  a fairly  simplistic

 2   example  to use.   Pipe  insulation  is  pipe  insulation.   You

 3   can have that  in  a room like  this in normal temperatures,

 4   and have it  in steam tunnels  with temperatures  exceeding

    100 degrees  Farenheit.   If  the specification  says  "in

 6   accordance with OSHA with respect to the  air  fiber counts,"

 7   you can  have a man going in there wearing a half mask

    respirator.  Atention  needs to be paid to the attendant

 9   OSHA  requirements.

10             We have specifications  that we  are  working under

11   where a  requirement  is  made that  a'man wear a suit and he

12   wear  complete  full cotton coveralls  underneath.  Down  in

13   the South it gets right hot,  and  these guys are going  in

14   there and the  temperatures  are getting up there, there is no

15   ventilation, and  the man is suffering terribly.

16             We have also  seen specifications where you have

17   asbestos that  is  actually an  exterior application, it  is

18   outside.  A  barrier  is  needed to  be  constructed around it

19   and the  specification  as written  requires a rough  carpenter

20  | frame with polyethylene,because someone was told that  if

21   you have a sheet  of  polyethylene_ryo-u are  protected.

    Unfortunately, this  project is located on the Atlantic

    Ocean and the  winds  roaring off the  dunes are tremendous.

    There is no  proper protection there.

25             My point is  that  more attention needs to be  given

                         Acme Reporting  Company
                                 12021 528-4386


 l   to the specifications.

 2             The owner — I think he 1..^ serves a disservice to

 3   himself and to his employees by resorting to the industrial

 4   hygienist as a panacea for the problems.  He can't hire

 5   one and say, you have the ball/ you take care of it.  He

 6   cannot go out and simply hire an engineer, either, and

 7   expect that that engineer or that architect, particularly

 8   an architect, is going to necessarily be well versed in air

 9   monitoring.  This brings me into a little bit more of, I

10   think, maybe the purpose of why I am speaking today, and

11   that is on the techniques or the applications that contractors

12   are involved in -.and the problems that go with that.

13             Our firm started out as a paint contracting firm.

14   That was the initial thrust of our operation.  We got

15   involved in asbestos, we got involved initially in a way

16   of encapsulation.  The tie-in is fairly obvious.  Subsequent

17   to that we then got involved in removal.  We had a little

18   bit of advantage in encapsulation in the sense that we had

19   individuals that were familiar with spray equipment and

20   spray techniques.

2i             But there is another problem.  The problem is

22   inherent in the construction trade.  You hire a man who has

23   been spray painting for 20, 25 years.  He has sprayed

24   Epoxies, all kinds of special coatings.  He disdains the

25   use of a respirator.  He doesn't see the purpose of it.

                        Acme Reporting Company


 l   The general terms or  phrases we hear are,  it  hasn't bothered

 2   me all this time, I am  still alive,  I don't see why I  need

 3   to wear it now.

 4             There  is an inclination  not to  use  the  equipment

 5   or the suit.  When you  couple  that with a specification

 6   that requires an unreasonable  addition of garments underneath

 7   that suit, that  serves  to  confirm  his desire  not  to want  to

 8   follow specifications.   This creates a little bit of a

 9   problem in the initial  approach bo asbestos abatement  or

10   asbestos encapsulation,  the idea of  making the workers

11   understand that  he has  to  adhere to  at least  the  state of

12   the art in terms of personal protection.

13             We have observed, and this goes back a  little bit

14   to the specifications-here, that some owners  in states and

15   different places have attempted to take a hand in this.

16   They will require a training session or something like this.

17   I would submit to you all  that a 20  minute film strip  shown

18   one day to workers does  not accomplish that end.  If you

19   want a man to understand,  a man in the field  who  is working

20   in the trade day in and  day out, to  understand what you are

2i   talking about in terms  of  personal protection and why  it  is  a

22   problem, you have to  invest more than 20  minutes.

03             Maybe  that  is  not necessarily the responsibility

24   of the owner, but if  you are going to be  involved or

25   concerned with trying to get qualified — I would say

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (3021 628-











responsible contractors, responsible people, then you have

to have an idea that they are going to take the time to

institute a training program to make their men and their

women, whoever is working on the project, understand the

dangers that are ahead of them there..  We as contractors

have that legal responsibility.

          If I have learned anything in these types of

things, listening to lawyers talk, and impressing on me

what our liabilities are, we have to make them understand

what they are faced with.  You can't send a man in and

say, go spray that ceiling ana be done with it.

          We also have a bit of a problem in augmenting or

adding to the number of skilled technicians.  I know most

of you all have probably observed the painting of a wall,

the painting of a ceiling.  Probably most of you have done

it yourselves.  When you get involved with spray equipment,

the airless equipment, the conventional equipment, there is

more there than might meet the eye.  For us to hire a man

off the street and throw him into an environment, give him

airless spray equipment and tell him to go spray a wall is
21 j  ludicrous, for a couple of reasons.

              A good many of the jobs, particularly the ones

    that require a bridging type of encapsulant, are generally
cosmetic in nature and you don't achieve a workmanlike

performance when you don't know how to use the equipment.

                    Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 1202) S23-aS83


 l   The way  that  surface  looks  at the end is directly traceable

 2   back  to  the spray  techniques.

 3             Most  states in the  country have apprenticeship

 4   programs that take anywhere from 2 to 4 years to train men

 5   and women in  how to apply the paint.  You take a normal

 6   airless  equipment, that is  a  dangerous piece of equipment.

 7   The pressure  that  is  involved in that piece of equipment/

 8   where the man pulls the trigger and inadvertently he can

 9   hurt  himself  very  badly.   This is important.  If a man

10   encounters when spraying thick bridging materials,

H   encounters a  problem, the push won't pump it.  His natural

12   inclination is  to  thin it.   Once he thins it, what does he

13   do to coverage.

14             The idea of using encapsulation is to have or

15   utilize  whatever criteria that is available, and the only

16   criteria available that I am aware of is what is done by

17   Mr. Mirick at Battelle.  That is not an endorsement of the

18   products. It is for all intents and purposes'".the only

19   guideline that  owners would have available to them.

20             If  that  material is tested at a particular

2i   thickness and you have people in the field that are thinning

22   the material  because they don't know how to make their push

23   work  and make it go through,  y:v. ? re not getting 20 to 25

04   MILS. There  is liability there, for me the contractor and

25   for the  owner.

                        Acme  Reporting  Company

                                 1202) 626-4386


 l             The whole idea of coverage is a problem unto

 2   itself.  I think all firms that deal with encapsulation

 3   encounter this problem, be it a painting firm or any other

 4   type of firm.  A painting firm has to deal with the problem

 5   that when we paint, color is our index of coverage.

 6   Unfortunately, there are a number of paint contractors

 7   around who have been known to skip by and alleviate one

 8   of the coats.  The job may call for three coats of paint

 9   and they get by wd/th two.  They are using color there

10   strictly as the index.  In encapsulation you can't.  First

11   off, if you are going to use color, you are talking about

12   penetration as a requirement.

13             Let's talk about the idea of these penetrant

14   encapsulants.  You want the material to penetrate.  Most

15   penetrants that we have used we have found to be a very

16   nasty material to have to work with.  They penetrate ungodly.

17   We have put men in two suits and had the penetrant go right

18   on through..  A guy goes home and has to explain to his wife

19   why he is blue today and yellow tomorrow.  That color is

20   hard to get off.  It is not like paint where you take a

21   thinner and remove.the paint.  So this is a little bit of a

22   problem.

23             The natural inclination is to stand back away

24   from it.  You are going to stand back as far as you can,

25   keep that gun out of your eyes, keep it away from you.

                        Acme Reporting  Company
                                 12021 628-4888


 1   You will get  a mist  coat, but you  don't have penetration  and

 2   you certainly don't  have  the thickness required.   So  it is

 3   important to  pay  attention  to that.

 4            This is  something  I don't think  necessarily  that

 5   the industrial hygienist, who is concerned with  the air

 6   sampling techniques,  is necessarily taking a look  at.  We

 7   have observed in  projects where encapsulation had  been chosen

 8   and where it  has  failed,  probably  th.e biggest reason  for

 9   that failure  is that encapsulation was the inappropriate

10   remedy  to begin with.

11             We  have not observed too much in the way of

12   encapsulation failing because of a material defect itself.

13   I say that and want  to add  th.e caveat that obviously  with

14   only several  years of experience it is awfully hard to get

15   any sort of longevity in  assessment here.  At least at

16   this point the problem seems to be more with the selection

17   of the  remedy, and I would  strongly endorse Dr.  Sawyer's

18   comments about the use of the algorithm.  We encounter people

19   using the algorithm  to determine what to  do.  If it is

20   below a certain level they  will do nothing.  If  it is  one

21   point above,  it is time to  remove,  irrespective  of any other

22   consequences  or variables that may enter  the picture.

23             We  have also observed a  little  bit of  a  problem,

24   we haven't detected  that  it has created a failure  yet, but  it

25   has the potential for it, and that is in  the curing of the

                         Acme Reporting  Company
                                 1202) 623-0388


 ,   product.  They are all water based.  There is no air movement,

 2   the room is sealed.  For a water base material to cure the

 o   water has to leave the product.  Those of you that may have

 4   experience with spray insulation will observe that those

    products fail nine times out of ten because the room has

    been closed up.  The winter time is a typical example.

    People don't want to be cold, so they shut up the room.

    They put in a lot of heat.  That doesn't move the water out,

 9   it adds humidity.

10             I think there will be a problem with encapsulation

n   unless ventilation techniques are utilized to increase air

,2   movement.  If for no other reason, you are going to get a

13   more expensive job because it takes longer for that coating
14   to dry.  You don't put on 25 MILS of coating in one pass,

    one coat.  It takes two coats.  The longer you are in that

16   room, the longer the place is tied down, the' more

1?   expensive it is for the owner and the contractor.  So it is

18   inportant to address those issues.

              That basically is, I think, the sum of what I

9Q   would have to say about encapsulation.  I think it is awfully

.,,   difficult to stand up here and describe the process in any

99   sort of lucid detail.  We have had a hard time trying to

    explain it to people in the engineering and architectural

    professions without actually taking them out and letting

    them have a hands on experience, and I think sometimes
                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 (2021 623-4888


 1    that  is  a  little  bit of a problem in the asbestos abatement

 2    field right  now.

 3              There is  a lot of specification writing and a

 4    lot of comments and discourse on the subject without

 5    actually going into the field and finding out what the

 6    realities  of doing  the work are.  I think from our own

 7    experience we can in all candor say that what we thought

 8    asbestos removal  would be and what it is are 180 '.degrees

 9    apart.   There is  no such thing that we have been able to

10    observe  as a standard asbestos job.  There is no such

11    thing as a standard cost.

12              I  hear  an awful lot of people and various

13    authorities  quoting to owners and quoting to people,

14    we should  be able to get a removal project done for "X"

15    dollars  a  square  foot, or encapsulation for "X" dollars a

16    square foot.  That  is tantamount to me telling you that the

17    Navy  can have a ship built for "X" dollars a cubic foot.

18    We have  too  many  variables involved, variables that are

19    not necessarily the norm for construction projects that

20    we need  to take into consideration and until the people

     writing  the  specifications and doing the testing and

22    writing  the  regulations for these things basically all get

     involved in  the field approach, then we are going to

     continue to  have  problems with inconsistencies and a

25    problem in getting  the most advantageous approach to the

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                  12021 62S-4BS3


 1   problem.  Thank you.

 2             DR. SAWYER:  Well, David, you get A+ for that.

 3   I think that is — outstanding is the only word for that

 4   presentation.  Perhaps some paranoid feelings were generated

 5   during the discussion, but I can assure you that we are —

 6   I guess when we get up and talk about this, we forget to

 7   say that we are also talking about the contractors.  I think

 8   I have made comments during this about worker protection and

 9   contractor performance.

10             I am running through the presentation and I find

11   a lot to make comment on.  I think that the comments that

12   he made about specification adequacy are excellent. This,
13   as I mentioned before, is an essential component of any

14   asbestos abatement project, that is knowledgeable, well

15   written, clear specifications that are not only in

lg   existence on paper, but will be enforced by a check of the

17   work function.  There is no substitute for this.

18             There is also no substitute for continuing

19   communication during these jobs.  Again, it was so well

20   pointed out, it has tremendous variability.  Each one is

2i   different.  You have heard this time and time again.           j

22             You must set up a system, and not only of good       '

23   specifications, but to provide a continuing dialogue between   :
94   the contractor and the purchaser of services in any            j
25   technical expertise that is brought in throughout the project

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2O21 628-4888


 1   until it is finished, and then acceptance  thereafter.

 2             One other point.  We keep talking about the use

 3   of industrial hygienists, on jobs for air  sampling.  I

 4   feel that this should not be the function  of the contractor.

    I think that the purchaser of services should provide air

 6   sampling.  I don't think that the contract, excepting your

 7   firm, of course, should be entrusted with  monitoring what is

    happening on the job site.  Always remember there are two

 9   steps to asbestos air sampling.  One is the sample

10   collection and the other is the counting of the fibers on that

11   specimen, on that filter „  If you get an  independent

12   industrial hygienist or some other knowledgeable individual

13   to come into a job site and they know what they are doing,

14   and you put in the specifications wh.at volume of sample you

15   want, where you want it taken, and how you want it taken,

16   you have got a fairly good idea of what happened on that job

17   site when you get the sample back.

18             If you would let the contractor  do the sampling —

19   I.showed slides, and again, everything I am saying up here

20   I can..document.  I showed slides of the effect of the air

    sampling technique.  I can get a zero count in any situation

22   in the world, because I know how to do it.  And the punch

    will be working and everything else.  You  can show me the

    worst asbestos job in the world, I will get a zero count,

25   because I know how to do it. So watch out, the person doing

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 <2O2> 52S--136S


 l   the sampling is critical.  The person doing the counting is

 2   a little bit safer.

 3             Usually an industrial hygienist or a laboratory

 4   that has certification for such counting — not for

    analysis, but certification for counting asbestos samples

    from the American Industrial Hygienists Association, and

    participates in their PAT Program, now that counting, you

    are fairly sure of getting a good count.

 9             It is the sampling.  Don't be ambiguous in your

10   specifications.  Bring in your own people.

11             It was alluded here to the general problem of

12   church and state.  Generally speaking, you must begin to

13   appreciate the legal implications and the contractual

14   implications of what goes on beyond that barrier in the

15   work area versus what goes on outside the barrier.  A good

16   way to think of it is that the contractor is generally

17   responsible  by OSHA regulations on inside the work area

18   behind your barriers.  It is the building owner's worry

19   what effect that will have on what goes on outside the

20   barrier.  There is a lot of confusion in this area, and I

21   think it could be the subject of a whole day long seminar

22   as to whose responsibility is what.

              I talked about specifications.  I would like to

    bring in another thing.  The better the specifications, the

25   more knowledge in that specification, the better the

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 62S-S888


    contractor is who is going to get the bid.

              One of the big problems is that a competent

 3   contractor who knows asbestos abatement work, who knows

 4   worker protection, who is interested in doing a good job,

    will be low balled on a bid by the guy that is going to cut

 6   corners, doesn't know what he is getting into, and has

 7   absolutely no work protection program.  And the only reason

    this, is permitted is the bid specs.  So the inferior,

 9   incompetent, non-caring, .- and, in some cases, criminal

10   contractor, can walk in when the field is wide open, when

11   the bid specs are lousy, and can put that low bid and get

12   away with it, and a lot of municipalities, a lot of school

13   systems, are locked into an obligatory low bid system.
14   The only counter to this is get better and better

15   specifications.

16             I think the question brought up here again,

17   perhaps the subject of a whole other talk, is the problem

18   of heat stress in asbestos abatement work.  The problems of

19   fluid replacement, of thermal balance, of heat loss in a

20   worker, so totally compromised by what we are advising for

2i   asbestos protection.

22             The most effective technique in the nonacclimated

23   worker, number one, is acclimation, of course, but the most

24   efffective technique is dumping a lot of water in him.  Of

25   course, on an asbestos site there is no eating or drinking,

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 (2021 SZB-ASSB


























It is tough to drink through a respirator.

          You used the words "protective garments."  There

is no such thing as a protective garment.  An asbestos

worker can work naked, except for the respirator.  The rest

is not protective clothing.  It is clothing.  If  it is a

cold site, you can put on a lot of clothes; on a  hot site

you can take the clothing off.  Remember, human comfort

function is a function of temperature, humidity and radiant

heat, those three factors.  If you have a job in  Southern

Florida in August, where you have applyethyiene barrier up

and the sunlight coming through it, and you are dealing with

98 percent humidity in the area and 110 degrees temperature,

you have a signficant. threat of heat stress, heat stroke,

total collapse of the worker.

          Remember that.  You must understand a little

bit about thermal stress, heat stress and the problems that

are incurred in protecting a worker against inhalation of

the asbestos.  There are ways out of it, decontamination of

worker and load him with fluid, or use of respirators.

There are a lot of tricks you can use to counteract this
          You brought up a good question there,  Education.
Comments made on worker education are well taken and they
are excellent.  There is a motivational film that will be

available through OSHA and it is a motivational film, and

                    Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 62S-il398


 1   it is not the end of all attempts at education.  His comments

 2   were excellent.  You have to keep educating the worker,

 3   the talisman effect of wearing the respirator around the

 4   neck,  failure of motivation, a failure of supervision, a

 5   failure of protection of the worker.  The competent contractor

 6   will require it because it means less legal problems to him

 7   down the road, but know the rules and understand not only

 8   what is there but what isn't there.  The Grandfather Clause

 9   to tell a contractor that you have to follow — how does it

10   go, Fed, state and local regulations, doesn't fly1with

11   asbestos work if you really want to see the worker protected

12   or, indeed, if you want to see the level of contamination

13   low in the work area, which really counts if you want to

14   keep the rest of the building clean.

15             Competence and workmanship I feel are tightly

16   linked to the quality of the specification.  The better the

17   specification, the better the contractor, the better the

18   job.  The level of expertise is critical, and it is tough

19   to go out and ask a contractor, are you an expert in this?

20   I don't know a single one that is going to say, no.

2i             Remedy selection, very good comments there, too.

22   The rating system is not meant to pick the selection.   :

93             -I would like to end my comments with two sea

24   stories about sealants.  One is called the flack vest

25   effect.  This was a sealant that was selectee because of its

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 628-4888


 l   high impermiability and the fact that the manufacturer of

 2   this indeed gave the purchaser of services a block of

 3   fibrous glass that you could have rolled a tank over it

 4   and it wouldn't have cracked, and th.is was indeed installed

    in a school gymnasium.  This again is documented with

    pictures and so forth.

              What happend was that the asbestos fallout ceased,

    even taking a powersaw through this material gave out very

 9   few fibers.  The stuff was absolutely fantastic.  It

10   formed a truly impermiable hard surface and there was no

    more asbestos dispersal from the material.  The one problem

12   was that the density was up around 20 pounds per cubic

13   foot, the material delaminated, and th.e Junior High School

14   students over the next three months were treated to 2 by 3

15   foot sections, each one weighing about 20 pounds, falling

16   off the ceiling and hitting them in th.e head. This is an

17   example, I think, of not thinking th.e whole problem through.

18   The asbestos problem, however, was solved completely.

19             The other is one I refer to as the pizza effect.

20   That took place in a New Jersey school, again with — I

2i   don't know why they ever selected a sealant encapsulation,

22   just like on the other problem — removal would have been

    much more desirable in both cases, but somehow they were

    sold on encapsulating agents.  What happend in this situation

    was that this was a bridging sealant that was applied, water

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 1202) 629-4888


    based, to a material that had a lot of clays in it, most of

    which had not been totally inactivated.  As soon as this

 3   material hit the friable material, the water reactivated

 4   all of the clays, the cohesiveness of the entire material

    began to decrease, and it delaminated in a perfect sheet right

    along the concrete Surface of the corridor.  This happened

    about 20 minutes after the encapsulation job was done, and

    the two encapsulating workers were down at the end of the

 9   corridor.

10             I was there myself looking at this, wondering
    v/hy the heck they were encapsulating and the entire corridor

19   delaminated and settled at one end of the corridor and

13   began walking towards the workers,  It was like the blot that

14   ate Newark, and it soon draped itself around the two

15   workers who are busy spraying.  The ceiling was totally clear

16   of all fibers when this occurred, although it was not


18             I think these two sea stories give you an idea of

ig   the trouble -you can get into with improper remedy situation.

              We had a question and answer period.  I know we

    have probably, confused all of you.

.„             VOICE:  Why do you call it pizza?

              DR. SAWYER:  It looked like pizza.  It looked

    like a huge pizza coming off the ceiling.

              VOICE:  I have a basic question.  It goes back to

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 (2021 623-4888


 1   the original statement.  I was wondering why you took a

 2   photograph from your lunch box when you had the slide up

 3   there.

 4             DR. SAWYER:  This was a contractor that got the

 5   job with inadequate specifications, was essentially doing

 6   a dry removal in the place, and what we did, we had heard a

 7   lot of stories from workers in my clinic, horror stories

 8   about the lack of respiratory protection, the lack of

 9   decontamination.  We had heard a lot of stories about this

10   contractor and his lack of clean up, the vanishing asbestos

H   also happened.  He made asbestos vanish.  No one knows where

12   his trucks went.  He was violating OSHA regulations.  He

13   was exposing workers.  I was interested in getting not

14   evidence against him, but I was interested if a contractor

15   did this, then what kind of fiber levels?  What was really

16   happening on his job site?  For some strange reason, he was

YJ   not willing to let me come in and take air samples.

18             VOICE:  What was the result of that flagrant
19   violation that you witnessed?

20             DR. SAWYER:  The result of it?  I think the

.>l   worker was exposed and I learned something from it.

22             VOICE:  That brings me to my point.  I am a young

23   9UY and listening to a lot of credible people in this room,

94   and I listened to presentations today that were very well

95   stated, but basically it has no impact.  For example, if you

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 12021 628-«a89


 l   basically do one of these jobs and you are basically

 2   violating those situations, and I have seen not 100,000

 3   feet,  I have seen millions of square feet done without any

 4   type of respiratory protection, where is OSHA?  I have been

    here for two days and I haven't seen anybody scare .any of

    these  contractors.

              The people here are very concerned.  My opinion is

    that the people here are here because they care.  The people

 9   that are out there making all the money are not the ones

10   that are here.

11             (Applause.)

12             VThat are you going to do about it?  If I rip out

13   100,000 square feet, what is anybody going to do?  I don't

14   see OSHA here.  What are you going to do, slap my wrist with

15   a $5,000 fine?  I leave that on the breakfast table.

16             It is upsetting me as a young man.  I see a lot

17   of old timers here, people that have been in business longer

18   than I have been alive.  I see them looking at this and

19   smiling to one another once in a while, basically knowing

20   that they are going to make a lot of money.

2i             Ralph, you gave a good presentation and you said

22   basically, equipment will cause more problems or extensive

23   technological equipment, air purifying systems, will cause

94   more problems than they will help.  I don't know what

    problems they will cause besides the expenditure of money.

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2O2> 628-1888


    I don't know what business I can get into to make more money

    with less equipment than this business.

 3             I am in favor of tight specifications.  I was

 4   trained to do it by the book, but it doesn't mean a damn.

    People are going to be bidding against me on these public

    contracts that aren't going to follow those specifications,

    and no one is going to do a damn thing about it.  And that

    is the way I look at it.

 9             In the case for the high technological aspects of

10   it and the abatement of that — I was studying economics in

11   college and th.ey were talking about economic displacement,

12   relocation and I was never in favor of pulling steel out of

13   an oven by hand when you can have a robot do it.  I believe

14   high technology is the answer.  I believe the problems with

15   the asbestos can be solved by using the proper equipment,

16   and for no other reason th.an to basically stop these

17   fly-by-night operations, people going after the contracts

18   and going to their local rental agency and renting a spray

19   gund and buying plastic and being qualified to do this type

20   of work.

21             I believe anybody worth their salt should have to

99   invest $50,000 to $100,000 in equipment to touch an

23   asbestos ceiling.  That is an upsetting factor there.

24             DR. SAWYER:  You have brought up some problems and

-°   I don't think it is incompatible with what we have said.

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (202) 626-4388


 1   I  think  we are in total agreement.

 2             To answer your original question, what are we trying

 3   to do about it, there are two ways to go about this — this

 4   could be the subject of another seminar called "The So-What

    Seminar,"—two things, one is that the building purchaser

    of services, the building owner, take upon himself the

    worker protection.  That is not going to work.

              VOICE:  Never happen.

 9             DR. SAWYER:  The second is that OSHA regulations

10   are augmented and totaly enforced on a job site.  And that

    is a problem. All I can say is that that slide that you saw

12   today and 10 others where I documented what was going on on

13   job sites, were all presented.repeatedly to the Department

14   of Labor and to OSHA, and all I can say to you is, hey,

15   I  agree  with you.  I am tired, because I got beaten.

16             VOICE:  Maybe that should be addressed.  Maybe by

17   Ed Klein or some of the people involved in the EPA..

18             When it comes down to th.e gentlemen sitting in

19   the room, I care about them as individuals.  I care about

20   rny children and their children.  This gentleman says it

2i   doesn't  matter and you can treat ceilings and not go through

22   the requirements.  People that work in my company are not

    only workers, but they are friends, and I care about them.

    I  care also about the children that will be working and

    living within that facility.  I have called jobs to OSHA.

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (202! 628-4888






















I have called EPA, and I can say that I haven't had one job

where they have dome down and shut anybody down or slapped

them with any degree of a substantial fine.

          DR. SAWYER:  Would you agree that adequate specs

are essential, not to get the job done, from your point of

view, for you to compete effectively in a cost—effective

manner, you have got to have adequate bid specs?

          VOICE:  Yes.  If they say in compliance with

EPA's standards, they say we have below 2 fibers per cubic

CC in the school.  We don't have a problem, but we want the

asbestos contained.  I presented my bid going through all

the proper steps and using the proper equipment and I have a

painting contractor bidding against me, and basically this

gentleman is going in at half the cost of my materials

and telling the school, you don't have a problem.

          DR. SAWYER:  When I speak of adequate specifications

and when this gentleman speaks of adequate specifications,

we are not speaking of specifications that say to comply

to EPA and OSHA regulations only.  They don't work.  They

are inadequate.  I hope that the gentleman from EPA will

bring to light today the AWCI specification package, which

I think should be incorporated into every asbestos removal

job.  They do include ~;??- ^^d OSHA regulations, plus

approximately 22 other specification items that make the

bidding equal to the competent contractors and keep out

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    the bums .

              VOICE:  If they want to spray with latex paint,

    that is their business, but provide the specification that

    this is a preparatory procedure that you have to go through

 5   in order to treat or do anything.

 6             DR. SAWYER:  Perhaps the audience doesn't

    appreciate it.  I mentioned an OSHA regulation, even if

    enforced,  which is a whole other question — even if

    enforced,  OSHA regulations do not contain a requirement for

    worker education and they do not contain requirements for

    decontaminating the worker.  If you have any idea of an

    asbestos removal job, the worker becomes totally

    contaminated.  If you apply OSHA regulations, he doesn't

    have to shower.  You do not have to educate him, according

    to OSHA regs.  So there are holes in the regulations,

,.   there is an intense ongoing program.  All I can say to you

    is that there is an ongoing program that has been in effect

    for about two years where we have tried to develop good

    procedures, good specifications, and we have been trying to

    work with OSHA.  And I am a realist.  I am not in an ivory


99             VOICE:  I have looked at some of these removal

    jobs, I seal the drums, dispose of the drums, and it costs

    $50, including handling costs.  There has never been anybody

0.   there to count my drums.  I am sure that people beating me
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 l   out on  public  contracts  —  I  am disgusted.   Here you have

 2   a quality  contract,  I  feel  my integrity is  intact,  basically

 3   bidding against  people —

 4              DR.  SAWYER:  You  can't bid against them.

 5              VOICE:   At the dump site nobody is there  to count

 6   the drums  as they  come off  the truck.   I can tell them

 7   anything I want  to tell  them.  That seems to be the case.

 g              DR.  SAWYER:  We are moving into an area where you

 9   and I could spend  hours  telling horror stories.  The fact

10   is we are  trying to use  the mechanism available of

11   interagency communications.  We have presented evidence

12   adhering to it.

13   .           VOICE:   The  difference is I paid to come  here.

14   I don't think  this panel or these EPA officials, they are

15   getting paid to  come here and if I am going to continue to

16   PaY to  come to these sessions I want to see something that

17   is going to basically  aid the industry.

18              DR.  SAWYER:  I wish, you had been present  on

19   July 5th of last year  when  we had a big fight with  OSHA

20   over th.ese problems.

2i              VOICE:   It is  not necessarily me.  I am a peon

22  l in this field.

23              MR.  SPINAZZOLO:   There are options available.  I

94   think it is a  fallacy  to presume that OSHA is the only
enforcing agency around.  I say this because I am near the
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 Newport News Shipyard, and I read daily about litigation and

 out of court settlements, half a million dollars to the family,

negligence of the owner, negligence of the architect.  I

 know recently in Atlanta, where I too paid to go to a

 conference to find out what is the latest in the state of

 the art, a number of attorneys talking on the subject of

 suing,of the litigation involved.

           On the other hand, you have got the press, and

 as you look in different areas of the country, for instance

 in South Carolina, in Greenville, the press has done a —

 I hate to say an outstanding job, but they certainly

 publicized what is going on and problems that may be

 surfacing, and if an owner is aware that he has a group

 of contractors bidding on"a project that have had history

 of problems of worker protection and contamination of

 outside environments, and he goes ahead and hires them for

 a project, I would think he would stand a potential of

 negligence in that action.

           DR. SAWYER:  You run up a hell of a question.

 There is no single answer.  You are talking about the use

 of the press, legal action, the threat of OSHA enforcement,

 although it probably is — well, I will stop there.

           Let's move to other areas of questioning.

           VOICE:  To carry the banner of the contractors a

 little further, I guess I have one statement first.  You

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made mention to a competent architect and a competent

industrial hygienist.

          DR. SAWYER:  Knowledgeable about asbestos

abatement procedures.

          VOICE:  It does not necessarily, when someone

retains an environmental consulting firm, that does not

mean that on your project you are paying $38 an hour -or

whatever, that you are actually, in fact, getting a certified

industrial hygienist.  We had a case whereby we paid a great

deal of money to find out that we had to help the guy put

the microscope together and take the samples.  He was not

an industrial hygienist.  He worked for an environmental

consulting company to come out and take the samples.

          DR. SAWYER:  Was he American Industrial Hygiene

certified for asbestos?

          VOICE:  He was not even an industrial hygienist.

          DR. SWAYER:  Then that is a mistake on the specs.

          VOICE:  There were no specs.  For every competent

contractor I think there are probably incompetent people in

the industrial hygienist field, too.

          The other thing is maybe people should get bidder

prequalified prior to bidding.

          DR. SAWYER:  That is tough.  That is like the

syphilis cards in Italy that the Army tried to punch once a

week for the girls.  It is the same concept.  The girl is
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 1   clean.  The prostitute doesn't have venereal disease this

 2   week.  You can't qualify a contractor.  What happens the

 3   next week?

              To give you an example, there is a contractor we

    refer to in our business as Atilla the Contractor.  He has

    had criminal charges brought against him for exposing people

    to asbestos. A lot of the work we did helped the Attorney

    General do this to the contractor.  Yet with adequate

 9   specs that are reinforced and with a good clerk of the

10   works, this contractor qualified as a competent asbestos

11   contractor and could have passed with flying colors. ^He

12   had the,equipment, the knowhow, and everything else, but he

13   didn't have to do these things'.  So qualifying or licensing

14   a contractor is a good idea, but there are definite problems

15   with it.

16             VOICE:  At least it is a step forward.

17             DR. SAWYER:  It is, but his behavior on a given

18   job is what really counts.

19             VOICE:  Everybody refers to a management system,

20   or a deferred action management system if you do

21   encapsulation, but yet it is hard to find, and I have had

22   a number of owners that are interested in that say what

23   exactly is in the management system.  We can tell him you are

24   supposed to train your workers, what guidance documents have

    come out to aid an owner, an architect, an engineer, to

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    establish a  good management system other than —

 9             DR. SAWYER:  There  isn't one, but we are working

 3   on it.

              MR. DORSEY:  The idea of a management system and

    the important points are detailed in the identification

    notification rule package.  If you. get a copy of that,

    particularly the preamble, it is a definition developed

    along with the education group recently.  In the guidance

    document we  say "deferred action."  We decided a

    management system entails a number of items and not just

    deferred action.  There is no guidance available for what

    to do, but there are details  in that rule package telling

    you what to  do.

              Is a Federal official trying to do something

    about the problem?  I would like to step back and address

    your concerns.

              We are dealing in a very, very complex political

    situation.   I want to give you a little background, because

    I think some of you don't have it.  We are working with

    numerous acts and pieces of legislation, and Congress  in

    writing these Acts did not envision this type of problem,

09   so many of the laws and regulations being developed are

    somewhat limited because the  Acts are not written for this

    type of problem.

9.             OSHA, many times, you are not dealing•• with  a
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 1  national OSHA.  You are dealing with  a state OSHA, because

 2  under the OSHA Act, a state  can assume primacy for a program.

 3  That means if you have a problem with OSHA, let me give you

 4  a suggestion.  Find out the  person  either in the Statehouse

 5  to talk to or the national contact.

 6            Writing letters — if you are really concerned

    about this and you have a problem,  you cannot get an

    Inspector on a job, or you know of  people that are violating

    regulations, write the letters to the important people.

    Believe me, that will have more effect than anything else.

              The second point,  EPA, OSHA, the state and

19  national level, we do not have the  resources.  It is

,„  impossible to inspect every  job site.  It is also impossible

,.   to be th.ere on numerous visits.  I  would really wish that
14                                                •*

    OSHA could visit every site.  I wish  that when you.called

   I EPA that we have a person to go out th.ere.  We don't have

    the travel money.  We don't  have the  people to do that.

    Budgets are being cut.
              The reason that you are paying me to be here is
    I want to know what are the problems, what can I do to

    improve  the situation.  We are to provide technical

    assistance. If we can improve the political situation, we

    will do  that.

              In various states, I know the state in which you

    are operating, that state does not have a strong school
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    program.  We have worked  for th.e last  two and a half years

 9   to get a  good person there to work with us.

 3             The specifications that were developed, the

 4   Chapter 9, the  guidance document, Dr.  Sawyer sweated many

    days and  evenings putting that  together.  That was the

 6   first shot.

 _             We are working  with ASTM to  improve those specs.

    Give us your feedback.  Tell us how we can improve the

 9   program.  Nobody has the  authority to  go out and be the

10   father for you  on any jobs. Th.e biggest problem is

    education.  Let the people letting the contracts know what

,9   they should do, what should be  involved in a good contract.

13   We are really trying to do that.

14             VOICE:  I agree, but  I feel  that some type of

.,.   spot checking arrangement would do a lot of good — I know

]fi   you won't be on the jobs.  Nobody here needs you to tell

    them that,  But if you were to do it randomly it would have

 8   a hell of an effect in keeping people  aware that if it

    happens,  there  is a possibility.

              MR. DORSEY:  In many  states  that happens.

              VOICE:  I don't know why the mentality in this

.„   country,  the burden is placed on me having to prove that

    something is going to kill me.  You prove that something

    is not going to kill me before you issue it.  That is

    going to  change.  I hope  my generation and subsequent

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    generations put the burden on the  government  to  do  that.

              DR. SAWYER:  We are trying.

              VOICE:  Philip Ruseg, Pentagon Plastics.

              I would like to address  this  from the  other  side.

    Just from the manufacturer's point of view, the  same basic

    thing happens as does the contractor.   What I  am talking

    about is a manufacturer comes up —  there are  many  sealants

    and encapsulants on the market and there are many being

    looked for, so a manufacturer th.at makes paint or chewing

    gum, or whatever it may be, looks  at the money involved in

    the asbestos and tell their chemist  of  sales manaaer,  take

    "X,Y,Z" product, submit it to the  EPA through  Battelle,

    and let's see what happens.  We are  not going  to put much

    money in it, but I think that product may encapsulate

    asbestos.  Three months later th.e  report comes back as a

    425A, the chewing gum is now on the  market.  They make a

    piece of literature, where they get  the information I have

    no idea, they mail it out, the EPA mails out  the list,

    thousands of people look at the list, they figure it is a

    reputable company, and they get calls,  I saw your product,

    I have an asbestos problem, what do  I do?

              The problem is, these people  don't know what do

    do, but the people asking the questions believe  what the

    people tell them is the truth because if they  have  a

    product approved they must have a  company in  the business

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that knows what it is doing.  These jobs are carried out

under the supervision of somebody with very limited

affiliation with asbestos, and I am sure you have seen

many of them, just many products only because they are

approved, the literature comes out, they are a bona fide

supplier, they may sell it for $8 or $10 a gallon and the

contractors bidding low will take those products and go

back to the company and follow the specifications, and that

is where the jobs were botched up.

          DR. SAWYER:  I won't mention Bill's product.  I

am familiar with, the firm.  They have a high degree of

accountability and have always exhibited a high degree of

responsibility in everything th.ey do.  What is your answer?

Do you think that Battelle should come out with sealant

specs and publish, those?  Is that the answer?

          VOICE:  I believe the ASTM is trying to put

together specs for this.  I feel it should be much like

taking the Bar exam in Florida, you get very stringent,

th.ey should be approved under a stringent method and then

the company itself must prove that th.ey have the knowledge,

not just the product, the knowledge and the personnel there

to help the people out in the field, to give them the

proper advice, whether they go to school or EPA starts a

school to train.  The manufacturers on asbestos say, fine,

you have a product, now we want to train you on the do's

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    and dont's on the product, and before they can sell the

 9   product have to have certification or recognition as not

 3   only having good product but a suitable force of people

 4   that can offer the information.

              Many people don't call the EPA for information

    because they don't want the EPA to know they have an

    asbestos product.  They call the manufacturers that make

    the product, and what they tell them they go by.

              DR. SAV7YER:  Or they call the contractor to  put

    T 4- -i >-»

              VOICE:  My name is Magnus Lynch.  I have a

    question for EPA, and I think it is an important one for

    th.e record.

              I haveTheard over the last two days mentioned on

    numerous occasions an EPA approved list, and I don't think

    there is such a thing, and I think manufacturers are using

    that very liberally.  I think it is the publishing of

    test results that meet certain tests, and I think the  tests

    that were made are the usual tests that are made on other

    finishing materials.  They are not applicable to sealants

    per se, and to the function the sealant has to perform,

    and that is to confine fibers, and I think Battelle has

    never done any tests like that.

              MR. DORSEY:  Two and a half years ago when the

    Battelle grant was put together, or contract, all Battelle was
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 1   charged with doing — there were many people out there that

 2   had a bucket of paint that were sealing asbestos.  Battelle's

 3   contract was to develop some sort of test, or try to

 4   develop an evaluation of these products, so that is all that

 5   they were charged with doing.

 6             Two and a half years ago we were not as smart as

 7   we are today.  We did not have the sophisticated techniques

 8   that we have today, or the level of sophistication.  When

 9   th.e Battelle study was started, Mirick and others were

10   attempting to develop preliminary tests.  They went to

11   Underwriters Laboratories, th.ey went to HUD, ran a

12   preliminary test and tried to develop a test matrix to

13   apply the sealant.

14             Many of the product could be dismissed immediately

15   because they were not working.  Some did not seal asbestos

16   at all.  We hadn't reached that point.  Some did not work

17   in any way.  That is all that test was supposed to do.

18             Two and a half years later, we are not in the

19   business of approving sealants.  We are not in the business

20   of setting up a certification program.  We don't have the

•>1   authority to do that.

22             It was purely an evaluation of existing products,

23   and many of the companies voluntarily sent their products

.74   to be tested.  Many of the companies would love EPA to have

.,5   an approved list.  It would be great to market an

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    encapsulant that you say would be on an EPA approved list.

 2   We can't do that.  Even those that have passed these tests,

 3   if they are not applied correctly or used by a competent

 4   person they are not going to work.  Even your product that

    can be purchased by anybody if it is not applied correctly

    and there is no training involved, and there is no way that

    we can set up a training program, we don't have the authority,

    can be ineffective.  We need to determine wha,t additional

 9   research is needed, what we can do to improve the situation,

10   but there is not an approved list.

              I don't think there will be an approved list.  It

    is certainly not our terminology.  It is not something we

    have used in our office.  The report will list the results

    of these preliminary tests.  Hopefully in five years we will

    have extensive tests and definitive protocols developed,

    but two and a half years ago we didn't.  We were starting

    from scratch.

              VOICE:  My name is George Severt, and my business

    is training monkeys to clean plenums, and I was sent here

    with the money of the concerned, Asbestos Concerned Citizens

    of Harper Valley PTA.

              Really, I am George Severt, and I am from Minnesota.

              The first thing I would like to do is say, thank

    you, but what does that mean?  I am a contractor.  What does

    that mean when you say I want to learn so that I can do
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 l   something to help you, but I have no money nor do I have

 2   any authority.  It is very difficult to understand how you

 3   accomplish anything with no money and no authority.

 4             You have said that you couldn't set up training

 5   programs, and I would like to relate to that.  I also would

 6   like to relate to the comment that you made about air

 7   sampling.

 8             I should explain that I am a contractor that

 9   studied two orange bibles for 9 months and never got an

10   asbestos encapsulation job, never have done one.

11   Fortunately I am reasonably successful in other endeavors.

12             The reason I don't get any of these jobs is not

13   because I don't bid them, and this relates back to what you

14   referred to, nobody really cares, and that is a predominant —

15   that is the predominant thing in Minnesota.  I have studied

16   very diligently to learn how to do things in a proper manner,

17   according to what information is available,some of which I am

18   skeptical of, but I tried hard, and I am unable to get a job,

19   and I have had a lot of problems along the same line you have.

20             There has been a lot of concern about specifications

2i   and since I have some experience in the construction market,

22   I hear just about everybody, EPA, distinguished panel, you     j

23   talk about specifications, and I find it so interesting,

24   because where do you think specifications come from?  The

95   specifications on application of encasulating material will

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 1   ultimately come from the contractor in the field, and until

 2   that time comes, this is merely discussion, but it will

 3   happen as it has in all new industries involving construction,

 4   that this expertise will come from the field.  This expertise

 5   will come from the field contractor and until we get to that .

 6   point everything else is academic.  And I do mean academic.

 7   I have heard much academics here.

 8             DR. SAWYER:  If I may break, in for a minute here,

 9   you are not cognizant of a fact th.at is going to be brought

10   up, that just what you are saying has occurred.  It is coining

11   out of industry.  That the contractors who do the work have

12   designed specifications.  This, I hope, will be presented to

13   you.  But wh.at you are saying is 1QO percent correct, and I

14   can reassure you that it is occuring; that model specs are

15   being created by contractors.

16             MR. SEVERT:  By a contractor committee of this

17   group?  Is th.ere a contractor committee?

18             MR. WILSON:  Yes.  Let me tell you a little bit

19   about the development of these specs.  We. have been working

20   with, the Association of Wall and Ceiling Industries, several

2i   groups in Canada, and a variety of contractors.  Dave

22   Spinazzolo is working on the group, others here are involved

03   in that group.

94             We are the first to admit that some of the older

25   specs out, some of the very general specs, and the guidance

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    document, were too general.  They were not specific enough

    to control some of these Atilla the Contractor types, and

 3   this has been an effort where the Association of Wall and

 4   Ceiling Industries came to us with a proposal to try and

    write a guide spec for the entire industry.  It is designed

    along the CSI format using suggested language on one panel

    and the notes to the specifier on the other panel, to try and

    help fine tune the guide specs to the specific job you are

 9   doing.  Obviously every job is different, but the specs will

10   be available very shortly.  We hope to finish the final

    draft this week.

              MR. SEVERT:  I guess I am more interested in who.

13   I tiave never heard of the Wall and Ceiling Industry as such,

14   as a group as such..  I am sorry.  I haven't.  And yet I have

15   been in th.e construction business for a good many years.  I

16   am involved in the insulation business.

YJ             MR. WILSON:  I can introduce you to Gene Herman

18   later.  He is th.e technical person for that.  Basically they

19   are a trade organization of people involved in the ceiling

    industry.  Correct me if I am wrong —

01             MR. HERMAN:  It is Wall and Ceiling Industries.

99   It includes insulation, lathe and plaster, dry wall, removal

    and partitions, ad infinitum.  I will be happy to talk to

94   you.

95             MR. WILSON:  We have not limited the task force

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22 I




working on the specs only  to  that  group.   There  are several

asbestos removal and encapsulation contractors,  people

involved in paining, and people  involved  in  various Federal

agencies, both, in the United  States  and Canada.

          For anyone here,  get your  name  on  the  mailing list

out there, and we will be  glad to  send you the draft,

hopefully, someitime at the  end of  this month.

          I think the point you  are  making is very  well

taken, that the concern here  is  education, and we need the

education from you as the  industry,  too.   Hopefully that  is

the direction these specs will take.

          MR. SEVERT:  That is why I  asked if there was a

contractors' committee, because  my experience tells me that

ultimately the architect and  your  company.~n  will receive

information from the person in the field  that actually does

the work, information that  you can rely on to get the  job

done and keep your nose clean.   And  that  is  all  important,

I realize that.

          I wonder if this  group has  given any consideration

to a certification program?  Now,  the thing  that I  started

to explain that is happening  to  me,  and the  thing that is

happening to him. really is  because there  is  no certification.

I understand very well that you  don't even certify  products.

There is no product certification, but I  think that will

really ultimately have to  change,  and I don't know  really that

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                                 12021 629-4888


     you as  the architect will ultimately, excluding what you

     have just told me, because I didn't know about that, but

 3   I don't think you as the architect will ultimately get the

 4   proper  information that you should have been having to

     specify intelligently until there is some type of

 6   certification or educational program for the contractors.

 7             Maybe you are deeper into that than I considered

 8   and that takes the place of a certification program, but

 9   ultimately I feel that that is how you will get the good

10   specifications th.at you would like to have.

11             DR. SAWYER:  But the function you are after is

12   competency, established competency in a contractor.

13             MR. SEVERT: That's correct.

14             DR, SAWYER:  We have been after that.  We feel

15   that a  certification program is less effective than building

16   into the specifications a demonstration of competency factors

17   We think that that is a heck of a lot better way to go at it.

18             In some cases certification has been highly

19   effective.  In the City of New York, with the school

20   program, we did set up a certification program with

21   identification badges with people's pictures on them, and

22   they had to go through a certification course.  However,

     that was not the v;hol= "picture.  There was a lot more

     follow-up with adequate specs and clerk of the work

25   supervision, but that was an extremely well run, well

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 1   controlled, massive program.

 2            Generally speaking,  certification has  problems

 3   with it.

              MR. SEVERT:  Could  I run  just  a  quick  poll  for

     th.e benefit of the EPA?

              How many contractors or people that  consider

     themselves contractors are here  today?

 8             CSHOW OF HANDS.),

 9            MR. SEVERT:  How many of  you think that a

10   certification program would be good for our industry,

11  ;  for this industry?

12              (.SHOW OF HANDS .)

13             MR, SEVERT:  I  am sure  that what I am  telling you

14    is that I disagree with  you.   I  am sure that  you saw that

15    90 percent of the contractors axe-'.behind  me,  and you can

16    poll it again if you like, but they disagree  with you, too.

17             DR. SAWYER:  I  don't think they  do.  I am not

18    saying it is not a good  thing.  I  am saying you asked a

19    very sneaky question.  Motherhood  is good, apple pie is

20    good, so are certification programs, but  I disagree  that

21    that is the total answer.  Everything I can say I can

22    document.

23             If you see me later  I will give  you  two research

24    papers published in the  New York Academy  of Sciences

25    that should prove without a  shadow of a doubt that

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     certification doesn't work.

              MR. SEVERT:  If you missed what just happened, then

 3    you are in error, because it was a quorum.

 4             MR. DORSEY:  I accept your challenge.  EPA will

     not be able to set up a certification program.  We can

 6    provide education.  Your certification program is

 7    fantastic.  Within the industry we have contacted

 8    associations, anyone and everyone that will listen to me,

 9    I have been there.  If th.e next step is a certification

10    program, tell me the people to talk to and we will tell you

     how to set up a certification program.

12             MR. SEVERT:  If you had a contractor committee

13  .  with. th.is group.

14             MR. DORSEY:  EPA could not set up a committee to

15    set up an association.  You could.  If you want to form an

16    association of contractors, you could start such a committee.

17             MR. SEVERT:  I might.  I have some experience.

18             MR. WILSON:  Two points — one is any ideas you

19    have about it we would be glad to assist you and provide

20    any help we can to do it.  The other point is based on some

2i    of the ideas Dr. Sawyer has introduced about the problems

22    of certification.  We have done what we see as a step

     further in the guidance specifications.  Let me give you

     an example.

              We have set up the specifications so that there are

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      checks  and balances  to  catch  some contractors trying to do

      a  job where  they  aren't competent to do it.   For instance,

 3    in the  spec  now there are some requirements  for documentation

 4    of certain things, prior to actually doing the job.   The

      contractor would  have to document the training that  he gave

      the workers, how  that was done,  the length of it, and the

      materials used.   He  would have to document his disposal

      sites and the  hauling contractor, or vehicles that were to be

 9    used to get  the material there,  a variety of things  like

10    that.   So that someone  — the specifier,  the building owner,

11    could establish a series of checks to catch  any kind of

12    faulty  operation  that was about  to be undertaken. That, to

13    us, is  the best way  to  go to  make the specs  tight.

14            Of  course,  it  depends on the owner  or the clerk

15    of the  work  monitoring  the job.   We are trying to go that

16    was so  that  even  if  the unqualified does  get the bid there

17    is a way to  get rid  of  him before the errors are made.

18            MR, SEVERT:  They can give people a metal badge

19    to cheat with. They would still be escaping the rules.

20    Even though  you document the  site, you better make sure that

21     you document how  many barrels are taken out  of the room,

22    tOO .

93            What  I feel is that  certification would be

24    establishing the  nucleus .; of  the group that  is ultimately

25     going to write the constructin specifications, and none of

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      you may ever see me again, but I can guarantee you that

      this is ultimately what will happen, the performance

 3     standards of this new industry will be written by the

 4     performers,  the contractors, so a certification program

      would start  a nucleus.; of a group able to come up with

      decent specifications for people such as yourself, and it

      will be absolutely impossible to k.eep this endeavor in

      the lab or in the office.  It will come from the field.

 9      .        DR. SAWTELLE:  Thank you for your comments.  Most

10     of our information on this is from the field, not from

      th.e laboratory.  We have demonstrated to you that a

12     contractor group is the source of th.e new specifications.

13     I am sorry that you don't know that, but I can assure you

14     that that is wh.at is happening.

15              VOICE: I.'..am .Gene Irwin, representing AWCI.  I am

16     the Technical Director of AWCI, something bandied about a

17     bit this morning. We have attempted to address — first, we

18     have tried to recognize just about every point that has

19     been raised  here.  We recognize that a certification program

      per se, nothing else behind it, is not adequate.  We

21     approached EPA, as has been mentioned, to develop further

22     than that a  guide specification to catch the other half of

23     that problem.  We are very close to fruition ar.i --.'hat will

24     undoubtedly  be a first effort, and it is obvious!;/ not

      going to be  perfect.

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         Taking the third step, we have instituted a

training program for the contractors.  The first one of

these, and this is the commercial, will be held in

Edmonton, Canada, the 23rd, 24th. of this month.  See me

for registration forms.

         The difficulty with the training program, as we

have listened for two days, is what are we going to train

on with respect to encapsulation.  There is no agreement

here.  We are simply a group of contractors who are relying

on people like Dave, who have had the field experience.

We also look to the manufacturers because they do have some

technical expertise.  They know what their products will do,

Our job is to extract the truth out of that and put that

together collectively with what we know, and balance it

off and reach a consensus.

         So I would be happy to talk to any contractor here

about this program,

         DR. SAWYER:  Thank you very much.


         MR. LORY:  I am Ernest Lory, from the Department

of the Navy.  I have a quick question on one of the slides

you presented.  It indicated that outside of a double

barrier system you were obtaining fibers coming through

the double barrier system.  Within the work area, was the

worker under a negative pressure or not?

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         DR. SAWYER:  No.  That is a good question.  What

I said in conjunction with that slide was that under

operating conditions, job site in the field conditions,

this was not a lab experiment, but monitoring what was

going on in the field with dry removal, we were getting

counts, mean values up in the 60's and 75 percent CC.

What the slide meant is there was no DP between any of

the barriers.  We were careful to measure that.  So the

lateral movement was probably incurred by worker movement

through the barriers or just th.e overload of the barrier

leaking around the seal.  The point there was that fiber

control — number one, material control, proper wetting

techniques, using amended water; number 2, compromising fiber

aeEodynamics by getting water on them was essential to

proper containment.  The two are linked.  It is extremely

difficult to contain high levels of airborne asbestos by

barriers without any negative pressure.  That was the

point there.

         I have more slides showing the effect of negative

pressure that yes, it does work.

         This will be our last statement.  Larry Dorsey.'.is

looking hyperglycimi'c.

         VOICE: There is great concern for the worker doing

the removal and the encapsulation work, and the question of

barriers and so on, and liver- count.  I haven't heard

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 I   anything about smoking.  There are some statistics that the

 2   great Silicoff has presented on the great synergistic effect

 3   of smoking on asbestos workers.  In fact, when you isolate

 4   the nonsmoking people to the smok>ers, the hazard was

 5   comparable to the regular public.  I would like to suggest

 6   that in fact Dr. George Wright of Cleveland suggested at

 7   one time that probably the best protection for asbestos

 8   workers, and probably one of the best defense mechanisms,

 9   was to hire nonsmokers and you eliminate a great percentage

10   of the problem.  I didn't hear that at any time, and I think

n   that is an important issue.  Would you like to comment,

12   Dr. Sawyer?

13             DR. SAWYER:  Yes.  I thoroughly endorse your

14   statements and the comment and the medical intelligence that

15   you have brought forth here.  What he is suggesting is the

IQ   fact that probably the mQSt^ potent cocarcinogen effect that

    we know in medicine is the combination of smoking and asbestos

18   exposure.  If you are talking about asbestos workers, there

    is a multiplying depending on what study you look at between

    50 and 90 times the incident of malignancies in the heavily

9}   exposed heavy smoker as compared to nonexposed nonsmoker.

22             The use of this intelligence in its social

03   application is the problem.  We have tried, and indeed we

94   have seen even problems in getting this into our manuals.

    There is a lot of resistance to it.  I have managed to

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     sneak  it in in every single thing I have ever written,

     every  single film I have ever made for asbestos workers.

 3    It is  there.  Johns Manville indeed h'a's • instituted  a  totally

 4    aon-sjnofcing programs

               Indeed, the only thing I, as a physician, can

 6    tell  an asbestos worker is if you don't smoke, don't ever,

 7    and if you do smoke, then stop.  That is the only thing I

     can tell as far as I am concerned has any effect whatsoever

 9    on the progression of the development of malignant disease

10    from asbestos exposure.  This is a good point.  I have

     something else cooking along the same line as far as the

12  I  national program I am trying to get going.  My work with

13    Jules  Bergman, if you will notice documentaries he has done,

14    this  is stressed.  I am not trying to do it officially.  My

15    approach is a public awareness.  I would like the guy's wife

16    to bitch at me.  I want everybody in the United States to

17    know the link between asbestos and smoking.

18              VOICE:  We don't hear that.

19              DR. SAWYER:  There are political reasons for that.

.>0    The concept indeed I would hire for asbestos removal work,

     if you want to pick the best population, would be people  over j

     40 of age who have never smoked.  Try to do that socially

     or politically.  It is tough.  Then you get into real trouble.

               I would like to adjourn.  Thank you very much for

._,0    your attentiveness.  I saw no one sleeping.  Thank you very

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    much  for  the extremely provocative questions and comments,

    and Larry Dorsey has an announcement. .

               I  think we reconvene at 2.100 o'clock.

               MR.  DORSEY:  We will break until 2:00 o'clock.

 5              CWhereupon, at 12:30 p.m. the conference was

 6   adjourned, to reconvene at 2:00  o'clock the same day.)















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                  AFTERNOON   SESSION

               MR. REINHARDT:  I would like to get started, if

     we could.

 4             We plan to run this panel discussion until about

 5   ten minutes of 4:00 to give us time to make a few final

 6   announcements, and we hope to break up right at 4:00 o'clock

 7   to give some of you time to catch your planes.

 8             With me here are the people who are listed on

     your agenda.

10             Immediately to my left is Anthony McMahon, who

11   works for  the New Jersey Department of Environmental

12   Protection.  He has been there for 8 years and has been

13   working wi.th asbestos for about 5 years,  and prior to

14   joining the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection

15   he was with a consulting firm that dealt primarily with

16   air pollution.

17             Next is Dr. Dhun Patel, Chief of Environmental

18   Health and Hazard Evaluation for the New Jersey Department

19   of Health.  Prior to joining the Department he taught for

20   8 years at the Columbia School of Pharmacy and of Medicine.

2i              Next is Robert Berhinig, who works for Underwriters

•79    Laboratories in their Fire Protection Department.  He holds

     a degree in civil engineering, and is a member of ASTM and

24    the National Fire Protection Association.

25              Eugene Secor of H. B. Fuller Company, is a chemist

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 l   who has been working with asbestos since  1973.  H. B.  Fuller

 2   was one of the first companies to get  actively  involved  in

 3   encapsulation.

 4             Magnus Hienzsh is an architect  who worked with

 5   the Naval Facilities Engineering Command.  He has worked

 6   with asbestos from 1976 and is now in  private practice as

 7   an architect.

 8             I would like to ask Mr. Berhinig to speak first.

 9             MR. BERHINIG:  Thank you, Forest.

10             Good afternoon.  As Forest was  saying,  I have  been

H   associated with Underwriters Laboratories in their Fire

i?   Protection Department for over 10 years.  And in  light of

13   this discussion today and in the panel discussion that will.  •

14   follow, I would like to explain some of the old fire

15   performance characteristics that should be considered  when

16   using an encapsulating agent.

17             To do that I think one must  first understand what

18   is the goal, why should we consider these performance

19   characteristics.  The goal of any work that anybody comes up

20   with is that when encapsulating agents are used that the

21   overall fire performance properties of the materials or  the

99   systems are not reduced.  We are not trying to  improve them,

93   but we don't want the fire performance to be reduced.

94             In this light there should be two items considered,

25   fire performance of the materials themselves and, also, the
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 l   fire performance of the systems.  In any case, what the

 2   contractor should be concerned with, the manufacturer, the

 3   building firms, are the actual code requirements.

 4             In that light there are basically two simple

 5   requirements.  One is concern with the surface flammability

 Q   of materials, and in this area this is primarily a material

 7   responsibility, a performance characteristic; and the methods

 8   used to evaluate the surface flammability are pretty well

 9   established and used throughout the United States and Canada.

10   One of the main items is a method called ASTMEM 84, and most

n   of the suppliers and building people know about it.

12           Another area which is more complex, would be the

13   performance in a total system, hourly fire resistance.

14   Unlike before, we were talking surface flammability, which is

,,   a function of the material.  Here we are talking about a
lO                                                  "*

16   system overall performance where it could be material applied

    to steel columns, beams, or it could be applied to a roof

18   deck or floor deck.  In this case you really have to look at

19   the overall performance of the systems, and in this light

9f)   currently ASTM is working on developing a method to

9.   hopefully simply evaluate the use of encapsulants on

99   representative materials .

              Again, when we are doing this work I believe we

    always have to go back to what our original goal was, and

    that is that we have to try to maintain, nor not result in

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    significant  decreases  in  the overall  fire  performance.    If

    we  can understand  this goal  and keep  this  in  mind,  I  believe

„   whatever  product comes up from UL or  ASTM  will  be  relatively

    simple and easy to use.

              MR.  REINHARDT:   Thank you,  Bob.   I  am not going

-   to  try to summarize the speech as Dr.  Sawyer  did this

    morning.  I  am not that eloquent.

              I  would  like Magnus to talk about acoustics and  a

    couple of other things.

              MR.  HIENZSCH:   Good afternoon.

              That is  how  I was  introduced to  my  topics,  that  I

    am  supposed  to talk about a  couple of other things  I  hadn't

    known about

              I  am an  architect, and as an architect I  am

    concerned with what encapsulants or  sealants might be  doing

    to  spray  applied asbestos containing  insulation that  was

    originally installed for  control of sound, other acoustical

    purposes. If  we talk  about  large theaters, auditoriums,

    gymnasiums,  swimming pools,  where we  are interested in  noise

    reduction which is affected  by the fluffiness of the  material,

    the softness of the material to absorb sound  energy and with

    acoustical plaster and other friable  materials  where  we are

    relying on the small pores .for the sound energy to  dissipate

    itself in.

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               I wonder what  the  effect  might be  of  a  sealant,

 2   an impervious membrane,  that is  installed  over  those  pores,

 3   clogging the pores,  filling  in the  pores,  and essentially

 4   turning it into  a hard reflector.   I  don't know what  kind  of

 5   effect it  will have,  and I would like to see some research

 5   done on that.  I don't think ASTM is  after an evaluation

 7   like this  because it  does not apply to most  installations,

    and I think to have every manufacturer's product  undergo

 9   a test such as that would be too expensive.

10.             When an architect  thinks  about a sealant application

    in an acoustically critical  building  then  maybe a test

12   application might have to be made and an acoustical

13   laboratory brought in to see what effect the sealant .has

14   on the acoustical absorption.

15              In a lot of instances  if  we spray  the building

16   with a sealant,  an auditorium or a  theater,  and the next

17   performance goes on  stage and the acoustics  goes  down,  the

18   owner might have to opt  for  total removal.   In  another case

19   it might be possible  that after  a sealant  is installed that

    detracts some of the  acoustical  properties of the material,

    a new material might  have to be  oversprayed  over  the  sealant

99   or sound blocking might  have to  be  installed and  maybe the

    installation can't take  the  added weight.

               So I think  it  behooves A&E's when  making

    recommendations  to building  owners  of what to do,  what to

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    opt for, whether removal or encapsulation, to think about

2   the acoustical performance.

3             Now, what are the other things?  I can talk a lot

    about specifications and the importance of tightness in

    specifications, and as such I want to give a plug for the

    Navy.  You have heard several people mention that during

7   the last 1 or 2 years the specifications have vastly

8   improved because certain things were done to them.  The

    Navy has been doing that for the last five years.

10             The certification of contractors.  Now everybody

11   talks about keeping government out of private business,

12   keeping government out of private people's lives, and I

13   fully agree.  I think it is up to the contractors to police

14   themselves, and the best means of policing is the contractor's

15   license.  If somebody has a poor performance, make sure

16   the bonding company knows, make sure the state knows, and

17   get his license pulled.

18             In terms of education, the Navy always has

19   specified that the contractor has to have a training program

20   and has to submit proof of such a program, and during a

21   preconstruction conference the Navy usually attended that

22   training program and the Navy's inspectors attended that

23   training program, too.  So the Navy knew what the contractor

24   heard from the industrial hygienist that usually gave the

25   program, and the Navy's inspectors also knew.

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              If you have any questions we can field them  later.

    This is supposed to be a panel discussion, not a speechmaking

    thing.  Thank you.

              MR. REINHARDT:  Thanks, Magnus.

              Now, Gene Secor, of H. B. Fuller, is going to talk

    about chemical compatibility questions, permeability questions

    and, finally, ways in which to determine whether a given

    substrate of asbestos containing material is suitable  for

 9   encapsulation.

10             MR. SECOR:  I hope I can handle all these topics.

11             The first question that I will talk about is

12   permeability.  It is a question, or rather a concept that

13   has not been addressed by Battelle Labs because it really

14   doesn't have anything, in essence, to do with how good a

15   sealer will perform.  What it does have to do with, however,

16   is how good a sealer will cure, and what will happen to an

17   insulation system after the curing process has taken place

18   if water intrudes behind the film formed by the sealer.

19             Permeability, in general, is a method of

20   describing how moisture moves between the films.  It generally
21   takes place from a location of high relative humidity  to a

22   location of lower relative humidity.

              The question was raised this morning, I recall, as

    to how hard it is for sealants to cure in enclosed envelope

25   spaces, such as we are using for encapsulation.  Generally

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 l    the sealants won't cure per se in this environment.  What

 2    will happen is that because the insulation system and/or

 3    the sealant that has been used is wet relative to the

 4    atmosphere, it will get a surface film formed.  This film

 5    tends to dry for the exposed surfacing.  As more and more

 6    of that film in general coalesces and its properties form,

 7    it gets h.arder and harder for any water that has been put

 8    into the insulation system from the coating to get out.  If

 9    the coating is impermeable, this will allow it to breathe.

10              In general, permeability is expressed in the term

H    "perm".  The lower the perm value, the more impermeable,

12    th.e more resistant the coating is to the passage of water

13    vapor.  So you don't want to use a vapor barrier as an

14    encapsulant.

15              The Canadian Government has taken this into

16    consideration in their specifications.  They call out a

17    "perm value of 3."  I don't know whether a perm value of 3

18    is a good, bad or indifferent number.  Normally in the

19    industry if you do have a perm value of 3 it is considered

90    to be a breather and the coating will breathe under most

91    circumstances .

22              - mentioned that -permeability will have some

03    effect on =.llo'-;i .ig a system to survey, shall we say, the

24    intrusion of water, let us say from a sealing leak.

25    Catastrophic failures of sealings in roofs do not occur

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 1   normally  overnight.   Usually you have small leaks that get

 2   bigger  as time  goes  by.   If these small leaks are prevented

 3   from breathing  or venting themselves, the water has only one

 4   place to  go.  It either  has to blister and expand or it has

 5   to  evaporate  or pass through the substrate through which

 6   it  has  already  leaked.   Normally that doesn't happen.

 7   Normally  it continues to accumulate,  if behind a barrier.

 8   As  this accumulation gets worse and worse you have more and

 9   more water on the coating and eventually the whole thing falls

10   down.   So that  is another reason for  using permable films

11   as  encapsulants .

12              How do you determine that on a bridging agent?

13   It  is standard  practice  to run an ASTM 396 or 398.  Both

14   are well  defined and documented.

15              The penetrants, however, provide a different

16   problem.   For the most part they don't form a homogeneous

17   film across the surface.  Therefore,  you don't have the

18   film preventing moisture egress.  So  it is my thought that

19   the best  way  to determine permiance of the penetrating

20   types of  sealants is to  create a dry  film of that particular

21   sealant in its  thickest  coverage.  Run the permiants on it

22   and if  it is  a  breather  it will be even more of a breather

23   when it is installed. I would think  that in general,  from

24   a water intrusion point  of view behind the encapsulant, that

25   penetrants will probably fare better  than bridging agents

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 1   from the point of view of breathing,  or getting rid of any

 2   accumulated moisture.

 3             Questions on chemical compatibility.   There has

 4   been almost no work done in this area.   I believe Mirick

 5   has  mentioned that, and I am going to mention it again.  No

 6   work.   However, some generalizations  can be made.

 7             Many of the products that have been tested by

 8   Battelle, whether they were acceptable or not acceptable,

 9   utilized polymers that have been used for years in the

10   latex paint industry.   The chemical properties  of these

11   polymers are well known.  The problem with insulation systems

12   in general that we are dealing with here is that almost

13   always they are alkaline in nature.  Because of this, all

14   the polymers that are used in various encapsulants have some

15   resistance to alkaline environments.

16             Additionally, there is one  physical compatibility

17    problem that has to be looked at, and Dr. Sawyer mentioned it,

18    Very often starch binders and clay binders were used.  In

19    most instances the clay binders were  not totally inactivated

20    upon use, so they can resolublize and the whole material fall

2i    down.   The same holds true of starches.  It is  hard to

22    completely insolubliae a starch.  Most contractors couldn't

23    care less.  Therefore, you have the possibility of

24    redisolving the starch and the system again falls down.

25              These things should be tested prior to the use of

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     any  encapsulant,  regardless  of type.

 2              I  suggest  that when  aging studies  are  done  on

 3    the  various  encapsulants,  that the compatibility chemicalwise

 4    will come  out  of  the woodwork.   As a  coating is  left  over  a

     given insulation  system for  a  period  of  time,  the

 6    deteriorating  effects  of the alkalinity  should become

 7    apparent and this should become evident  if tests are  done.

     The  film should not  drastically change in property, say

 9    when freshly made versus a 6 or 12 month period.   Two years,

10    perhaps, you may  see some  drastic changes, because normally

     two  years  or longer  in some  kind of aging test is equivalent

12    to ten years or more,  very often, in  the actual  world.

13              Forest  has asked me  what my thoughts are on how

14    you  determine  whether  an encapsulant  should  be used over a

15    given insulation  system.   This is an  extremely hard question

16    to answer  because every 'insulation system is different.

17    However, in  general, I think that many of the items given

18    in the algorithm, if looked  at from the  point of view of

19    using an encapsulant,  might  be of interest.

               On the  real  soft,  fluffy cotton candy  type  of

91    insulation,  as I  like  to call  it, which  very often is

99    fireproof ing,  those  types  of insulation  systems  are very

     hard to encapsulate, for a number of  reasons.  Normally the

     material wasn't applied all  at once.  It normally was

     applied an inch at a time  and  they come  back and apply

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     another inch.  So you have laminations already built into

 2    the insulation.   If you have any kind of interlaminer space,

 3    the encapsulant, if a penetrating variety especially, can't

 4    jump from one  place to another.  So those.types of

 5    insulation systems are hard to encapsulate.

 6              The  vermiculite pearlite kind are relatively

 7    easy in my opinion.  You spray your encapsulant on the system

     according to your own recommendations, whatever they may be.

 9    You allow the  material to cure.  You test it for penetrations,

10    if you have a  penetrating type, or you test it for adhesion,

     et cetera, if  you are using abridging- type.  If the material

12    appears well adhered to the insulation system, and the

13    insulation system does not appear to be disbonding in .any

14    way, then normally I would say that encapsulant is probably

15    acceptable. This acceptability criteria obviously is

16    subjective.

17              We have heard all kinds of comments as to

18    specifications,  how we can do this, how we can do that.   I

19    would say using  Mirick's cohesion, adhesion test in

     conjunction with a lot of common sense and the correct test

     patch .be done, that almost in every case a bad situation

22    will be avoided.  The more familiar contractors and

     manufacturers  become with their products and how they perform,

     the better able  one will be to make this kind of decision.

     In this case familiarity does not breed comtempt, I don't

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    think, because every job I see is different.  Believe me, it

 2   is different, and the more I see of them, the more  I learn.

 3             That is all I have to say.

 4             MR. REINHARDT:  Thank you.

 5             Tony McMahon is now going to introduce a  rather

 6   different perspective on the use of encapsulants which the

 7   State of New Jersey has espoused.

              MR. McMAHON:  Before I start, I would like to get

 9   a little audience participation.  I would like to see —

10   I can tell you are all my friends now, and  I would  like to

    see who you are.  Can I see how many people we have here who

19   represent manufacturers of encapsulants or  sealants?

13             How many are contractors and architects in that

14   general field?

15             How many are in government, local, state, and

16   federal?

17             And how many are people who are considering using

18   encapsulants, have a building or a facility which has a

ig   problem?

              I consider you all my friends at  this point, but

    let me put it right up front.  New Jersey's position right

    now is we strongly advise against the use of sealants in

    almost any case.  There are very, very  f.ew situacioris where

94   a sealant can be used.  Our feeling is that if an asbestos

    containing surface has deteriorated to the  point to need

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                                 !2O2) 628-4838


 1   some kind of  control,  that  control  should be  removal.  Any

 2   surface which can be sealed can  also be  removed.

 3             I originally was  going to go into the  reasons

 4   point by point.  Most  of  them are contained very adequately

 5   in  the EPA Guidelines  which are  provided in your packet.  I

 6   might point out  that it doesn't  take all of these to end up

 7   in  a failure  of  an  encapsulant job, just one.  I might add

 8   one more disadvantage. That is  in  the quality control during

 9   the application.  As has  been pointed out every  job is

10   different, every asbestos containing surface  is  different,

11   and I have yet to see  any method of showing the  encapsulant

12   being applied has been adequately and thoroughly and not

13   overapplied or underapplied either  in one area or another.

14   To  arrive at  this position  has been one  which has taken the

15   State of New  Jersey about five years.

16             When the  asbestos bomb was first dropped in  New

17   Jersey it was the Hull Township  situation.  There were seven

18   schools in one township.  The asbestos containing material

19   was very friable, very fluffy.  The students were engaging

20   in  snowball fights  with the friable asbestos.  We knew we

21   had a very, very serious  situation. We  looked.   We asked

22   EPA, we asked OSHA, we asked anyone we could  find. There

23   was no information. No one knew what the solution was at

24   that point in time, so we started off on our  own.

25             We  formed a  cabinet committee  of various

                        Acme Reporting Company
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 1    Departments in New Jersey.  In May of 1977, as a result of

 2    a lot of work, a lot of trial and error, we came out xvith a

 3    guidance document for persons who are involved in buildings

 4    which contain asbestos.  As far as I know, it was the first

 5    guidance document to provide information on how to assess a

 6    potential hazard, listing contractors and testers.  Also,

 7    we listed remedial action.

 8              In that guidance document we did have a section

 9    on encapsulants.  We were considering their use.  We did

10    see that as a reasonable method for a potential method of

11    control, but we still had very, very little information, a

12    very brief knowledge.

13              In June of 1976, I guess, the next major incident

14    that occurred was the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine came out

15    with its study.  It looked at New Jersey schools.  We found

16    that of our 2500 public schools, approximately 250 of those

17    schools had some sort of asbestos.  The study also looked

18    at removal methods, assessment methods, and encapsulants.

19              I think this is one of the first reports where I

20    clearly saw some of the deficiencies of encapsulants, and

21    we began to become somewhat cautious.

22              Also at about this time the Battelle study was

23    commissioned.

24              Our position at that time was what we were telling

25    the schools is pretty much., hold off on encapsulants, hold

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 l   off on sealants, let's see what EPA is going to come out

 2   with with this Battelle study.  We said, that study is coming

 3   out in a few months, and then a few months, and then a few

 4   months, and we waited, and nothing came out.

 5             The materials used in the Battelle Studies were

 6   very good, but there were a lot of other criteria not looked

 7   at.

 8             In March of 1979 EPA came out with their guidance

 9   document and again the deficiencies of encapsulants and

10   sealants were pointed out.  This was about the time we began

11   to feel good about some of the information we had on removal.

12   We were placing most of our emphasis on removal, obviously.

13   We were doing a lot of work, and the EPA guidance document

14   supported our position at that point.

15             Finally, in June 1980, just a year ago, New Jersey

16   arrived at its present position.  The Cabinet Committee on

17   Cancer Control, which was formed by the Governor, and was

18   made up of a number of state institutions, was involved in

19   a great deal of debate and discussion — I myself made a

20   number of inspections and reviews of encapsulants, we looked

2i   at the Battelle studies, all the information available at

22   that time, and we arrived at the position  that until a

93   sealant can be proven to do the job thoroughly and will last

24   for long periods of time, very long periods of time, that

95   that was not the way to go.

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 1              I  am  not  going  to  go  into  our  removal  program.

 2   As  I said, we have  spent  a lot  of  time on  it.  Basically

 3   what we have is  a contractor training program, and  all

 4   contractors  who  go  through this one-day  training course

    become eligible  to  be  placed on a  contractor's list,  a

 6   bidder's  list.   Only persons on this list  are  eligible for

 -   state contracts, school contracts, any New Jersey funded
    contract.   Only  those  contractors  on  the  list can be  eligible


    for these contracts.
10              I  might  add that  all  of  the  workers  must  go

..    through  the  training,  not just  the president of  the company

19    or one official  in the company.  Each  person on  the job  must

     go through the  full training.

               We also  have minimum  specifications  for contracts

     for  removal. Also, on this state  bidder's  list  we  did have

     a situation  —  there was a  gentleman this morning questioning

     whether  or not  there was enforcement.   We have removed

 g    contractors  from our lists  who  have been found to flagrantly

     violate  the  guidelines and  contract specifications. They

9_    have been  removed.   We have gone through hearings and  there

91    have been  removals from the list,  so there  is  some

99    enforcement.

93              I  have to admit it is not as thorough  —  we  don't

     inspect  every removal site, but at least there is a knowledge
     of our  presence.

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 1              I am  going  to  end now  with  a statement  to  Forest

 2   and EPA.   New Jersey  feels  that  at this time there has been

 3   enough time and money and  resources invested in the  research

 4   on sealants.  We  feel that  the resources of the Environmental

 5   Protection Agency and of the Nation as a whole should be

 6   directed towards  upgrading  the control over removal,  that

 7   is the Federal  regulations,  we would  like to see  a lot of

 8   guidelines entered into  the Federal regulations.  We think

 9   that  it is about  time to stop this impossible dream.

10              We talk a lot  of  reality and dreams and so on.

11   The dream  of finding  an  almight, all  penetrating, all

12   everlasting sealant is just a dream.

13              MR. REINHARDT:   Thanks.   I  may try to respond to

14   that  later.

15              Dr. Patel,  I believe,  has something to  add to

16   Mr. McMahon's talk.

17              MR. PATEL:   I  think he did  an excellent job of

18   describing our  position, and, therefore, I will take very

19   little time just  to add  to  it.

20              I want  to emphasize that the Cabinet Committee on

21   Cancer Control, which Tony  talked about, formed a

22   subcommittee which was then called The Governor's Task Force

23   on Asbestos, and  this consisted  of a  lot of Departments

24   within the State  Government. It included the Department of

25   Health representatives,  it  included Department of Environmenta

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 l    Protection  representatives,  Labor and Industry, the

 2    Department  of Education,  Department of Community Affairs.

 3    We had  representation from Human Services, Transportation,

 4    Treasury, and on "accsasions, when there was some discussion

 5    about problems in any other Departments in the State, they

 6    were also invited to participate.  And, of course, the

 7.    Attorney General's office.  So we had people from almost all

 8    the Departments participating in our discussions.

 9             The Task Force  did accomplish a couple of the

IQ    objectives  which they had undertaken.  One of them, which

n    is the  minimum specifications -- in the history, I think

12    Tony.;' left  out the fact that we did come up with minimum

13    specifications.

14             He mentioned that the minimum specifications

15    included the requirement  for training of the contractors,

16    the architects and the asbestos workers, and that we have

17    a list, and so in essence that is certification of the

18    asbestos workers.  Of course, the regional EPA office has

19    been helping us extensively in this training course.

20             The other objective which the Task- Force

91    accomplished was the position paper on sealants which Tony

99    mentioned.   We do have a  June 5, 1980 position paper which

93    came out of the Governor's Task Force, which states our

24    policy  on asbestos, of sealants for control of asbestos.

25              Earlier this morning I think the gentleman from

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 1   North Carolina was mentioning that  there were  six  stages that

 2   we went through, the disillusions,  I  think he  mentioned, then

 3   the guilt feelings, and then the  punishment, and the  awards

 4   for non participation — it was interesting to me  that I was

 5   contemplating along these lines that  our route has been

 6   cyclical.  We started out with general  interest, and  maybe

 7   there was something here we can use which can  be reasonable

 8   in cost and be useful for controling  the asbestos hazards,

 9   and then, like Tony  mentioned, the EPA-Mt. Sinai  report

10   came out about the problems, which  we saw.

11             I think somebody mentioned  this one  ceiling which

12   fell in 20 minutes.  I believe that was one of those  that

13   they experimented upon in New Jersey  in the earlier stages

14   when we thought sealants might be useful.  So  then we began

15   to see the problems.  Then, of course,  there were new

16   sealants and contractors said that  .these were  much better

17   and would be more useful, and at  this stage the EPA-Battelle

18   study was initiated to find out about the use  of these.

19             This built up a cry among the users  and the

20   providers for a less expensive control  method, and there was

21   a long delay in getting the reports out, but this was

22   because of the extensive evaluation of  ten sealants,  which

23   included, as we see in the report handed out to us this

24   morning, the determination of flexibility, impact  strength,

25   abrasion properties, smoke generation,  toxic gas release,

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 l    and  the flame spread,  and a few other things.   Out of these,

 2    four were selected for field testing, and I think the draft

 3    of the final report is the stage we are at, which seems to

 4    again be a complete circle.

 5              Yes, we saw  some excellent research  presented to

 6    us,  both by the Navy and the Georgia Institute of Technology,

 7    which again highlighted the problems in the user sealants.

 8    That completes the circle.  We raised the expectancy by the

 9    report that maybe sealants can be used, but at the same time

10    we come up with the problem that we hadn't even seen

H    included in this report, so we still have that question.

12              Then we heard from the contractors and architects

13    that there may be instances, and from the experts, that

!4    there may be instances, especially in industrial applications,

15    where sealants may be  used.  So we go on with  a mixed

16    feeling about the use  of sealants.

17              Like Tony mentioned, in our discussion in New

18    Jersey, we looked very carefully at both sites and at all

19    the  various questions  about the user sealants, and as Tony

20    mentioned earlier, we  participated actively several times

2i    in the national discussions on various types of asbestos

22    problems, the asbestos regulations, the advance notice for

23    proposed rulemaking, the proposed regulations  by EPA, by

94    the  Department of Education, the national discussion on

95    asbestos replacement.   We have come to all of  these hearings

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 1    and presented our viewpoints at all of these hearings,  and

 2    also to get complete first hand information from all tho^se

 3    concerned out there about these things.

 4              Then,  after this, we looked in the State where

 5    sealants were used, especially in the earlier stages, the

 6    ones that Tony also mentioned, and we observed that the

 7    advantages which had been listed in the various EPA

 8    publications, including the ones handed out yesterday and

 9    today and which were discussed by several speakers, we

10    found out that the disadvantages outweighed the advantages

11    of sealants in many instances.  Whether 30, 50 or 80 percent

12    of the time does not alter the fact that in those instances

13    where it failed it put a tremendous financial burden on all

14    of the concerned parties, and besides there was added

15    aggravation and prolonged anxiety among the users of these

16    facilities where these sealants were tried.

17              We noted that any time moisture either from

18    condensation or leaks, when this gets under the sealed

19    material, since this material is now impervious to water,

20    the added weight of the water then pulls the whole ceiling

21    down.

22              We also had discussions with many architects  and

23  |  contractors about their opinions and observations on the

24    use of sealants, and we found that for every contractor who

25    advocated the use of sealants, or manufacturer, there were

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    many who  mentioned to  us  the problems they  had faced when

    for the sake  of  saving a  few dollars  they were asked by

    customers to  use sealants as a control method.

 4              My  final concern is that it took  EPA and Battelle

 5   so many years to evaluate about 100  sealants,  I believe.

 6   Now, with EPA again raising the hope  of users  and applicators,

.7   and, I guess,  my comments now are  also directed to you, I

    am afraid there  will be maybe 500, 1,000, or many more new

 9   sealants  that will have to be evaluated by  EPA prior to

10   being accepted,  and I  wonder how many years we will have to

11   wait — I am  not blaming  EPA.  I think they are doing great

12   work, but it  takes time to get all that information.

13              In  my  opinion it would be better  if  EPA clearly

14   stated at this state that in certain  facilities where we

15   have exuberant students,  and where we can't control that,

16   that sealants should not  be used under any  condition.

17   Then maybe list  the advantages and disadvantages for other

18   types of  facilities to evaluate their particular situation

19   and then  decide  what type of corrective action is most

20   suitable.

               I would also like to mention, earlier we were

22   told that EPA does not intend to come out with an approved

23   list.  To me  that does not make sense.  If  you are going to

24   spend so  much time and money to do this work,  at least we

25   should get the benefit of that, and EPA should come out with

                         Acme  Reporting Company
                                  1202) 628-4888


 1    an  approved  list  of  sealants  if  that is  possible.

 2              In my closing remarks,  I am concerned with the

 3    public health  issue/  both  for users of these buildings  and

 4    applicators  and workers,  and  that is why in New Jersey  we

 5    have been  selective,  and hope we  are doing our best to

 6    protect  the  health of all  involved.

 7              Our  minimum specification, we  feel, is a good

 8    document,  and  we  do  have a training course on certification

 9    for the  asbestos  workers.

10              Furthermore,  we  do  inspect the sites to see if

11    these specifications  are being followed.  We don't go to

12    every site,  every job,  but we at  least try to get to each

13    of  the contractors — 20 or 30 contractors -T that do most

14    of  the work  at least once  a year, and quite often more  than

15    that.

16              We have also seen some  very flagrant violations,

17    in  which case  we  have been able  to stop  work immediately

18    when it  was  brought  to our attention or  if we observed  it,

19    using the  authority  which  has been vested in the various

20    state departments, depending  on  whether  it was a serious

21    health problem, or DP,  or  v/hatever state institution has

22    the responsibility.   We have  also had excellent cooperation

23    from the local OSHA  offices in these instances in closing

24    down some  of these jobs.

25              I  don't think the gentleman who raised that

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 l   particular  issue  is here.   Unfortunately  I wasn't  able  to

 2   answer that earlier for  him,  but I  think  he  would  appreciate

 3   knowing  that we do not have those kind of problems in New

 4   Jersey,  and I  think I will  leave the  rest of the time for

 5   questions later.

 6             MR.  REINHARDT:  In your questions, if you could

 7   use  the  mike in the middle  of the floor.

 8             Since we do have  only  about an  hour left, I would

 9   appreciate  it  if  you would  keep  your  comments fairly brief.

10             VOICE:  I hate to tell you,  but I  think  you will

11   see  the  day when  you regret the  decision  that you  have  made

12   under the circumstances  in  which you  made it.  If  you think

13   that the State of New Jersey doesn't  have its problems  and

14   that you are not  eliminating a good 50 to 60 percent of the

15   potential disasters because of your decisions, then you are

16   sadly mistaken.   We get  the phone calls and  we talk to  people

17   that don't  want to be seen  by you and don't  want to be

18   inspected.   If you get around to 30 contractors once a  year

19   you  are  missing the boat.

20             You  have made  a decision  that you  are going to cut

2i   out  the  people who can just not  afford to remove asbestos,

22   and  you  say that  the difference  is  a  fev;  dollars.

23   Apparently  there  is something lacking L:.  year program.

24   Secondly, a good  contractor,  there  is a handful of good

95   contractors in this country,  a handful that  are actually

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    capable mentally and physically and equipped to remove

    asbestos in the proper manner.

 3             Now, I think everybody in the room agrees that  the

 4   fact that the ultimate solution for asbestos is removal.

    I don't think there is anybody that would argue with  that

 6   fact.  But I also think you have to agree that if  it  is not

 7   done properly, it is a far greater danger to try to remove the

    asbestos than to leave it alone and do nothing about  it.

 9             I would only hope that the people in the State  of

10   New Jersey have as much faith in your contractor program

11   or contractor approval program as you do, because  I dare  say

12   that you are making a very grim mistake, and the day  will

    come when you are going to retract, because the commercial

14   businesses are out there, and they will not and cannot in

15   many instances just won't put up with the expense  of  removing

16   asbestos.  Especially you are talking about cementitious

17   asbestos.  You have,seen many cases where just to  rip it  off

18   the ceiling is a horrendous job.  There is no reason  to do

19   that, spending the money and the testing involved  with it

20   when encapsulation will do the job.

2i             Encapsulation _Ls not the answer, and there  is no

    all mighty coating or encapsulatant invented, but  there is

23   no all mighty contractor to be put to the task of  removing

24   all the asbestos in New Jersey, and I think you have  made

    a grave mistake and it will come.   (APPLAUSE.)

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                                 (2021 628-1888


               DR.  PATEL:   Let me see if I can answer some of

 2    the concerns you had over there.

 3              First of all, it wasn't the two of us who made

 4    the decision.   I thought I tried to bring that out. uThere

     was a whole committee, and every state department was

 6    involved that was responsible for the decision.

 7              Secondly, I want to state that in the Department

 8    of Health now we have a controlled response plan for

 9    asbestos control, and that means that when we get a call

10    about a problem on asbestos we use a questionnaire that we

11    have developed, and depending on how serious the problem is,

12    we will send somebody out immediately or later, or just give

13    them advice, depending on the problem.  If there is a

14    problem we will go out and we will use the algorithm,

15    collect samples — our lab now does have polaroid light

16    microscopy as well as X-ray defraction to do the analysis,

17    so we will collect a sufficient number of samples as

18    stated in the proposed regulations, and we do all of that to

19    decide if a problem exists.  Only if the problem exists,

20    then we would recommend removal.

'21              If the asbestos is cementitious, I have been to

22    schools where I told them they don't have to do anything,

     because it was in excellent condition, not only the sandy

     type, but this was almost like cement, a smooth surface,

25    nothing coming off, and I didn't see any need for action

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 l    there.   So  it  is  not like we are asking everybody to remove.

 2             Secondly,  in terms of saving money, there is a

 3    serious  question,  and it is not — right now there is no

 4    regulation  that sealants cannot be used.  This is a

 5    recommendation,-  and only in those institutions,  like in

 6    education,  there,  they are not allowed to use sealants.

 7    So we  are open to  the question.  If somebody ever does

 8    come up  with a super sealant, obviously we will consider

 9    that,  so it is not like it is a closed question at this stage,

10    We don't feel  the  use of sealants does save money or help

11    in controlling the hazards of asbestos exposure.

12             VOICE:   Robert Grove, Commonwealth of Virginia^

13             A question for Dr. Patel.  Are you going out and

14    monitoring  the removal — is the State involved in the

15    monitoring  of  the  owner's area, or is this written into the

16    contract to have the owner hire an industrial hygienist, or

17    is the contractor doing that?

18             DR.  PATEL:  In our minimum specifications we

19    state  clearly  that before it can be Conducted; two weeks prior

20    to that  they are to inform the USEPA, they are to inform the

2i    Department  of  Environmental Protection in the state, and

22    the Department of Health in the state.  The purpose of that

23    is to  assure that  the EPA and DEP will check that it is

24    going  to the proper place.  The Health Department has an

95    Occupational Health Program which looks at the people

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 1    working at these facilities to see that they are properly

 2    protected, and if it happens to be a school or an educational

 3    institution,  then the Department of Education has at least

 4    one inspector going out to every site — every one — not

 5    only once a year, for each contractor, but every site.  They

 6    are going to see that all the set up that USEPA has there,

 "    and all the specifications are being followed, everything.

 8    Then they go while they are removing — we also go in

 9    occasionally — not every time, we don't have that many

10    inspectors.

11              Then at the end we get the air results, after the

12    first clean up, second clean up, as mentioned yesterday by

13    Mr. Dorsey, and then only the people are allowed to get back

14    into the building if the results show that they are back to

15    back ground or previous levels.

16              So, yes, we do, I think, go out to as many as we can

1"              Now, if it is strictly industrial, then obviously

18    we may get informed and we may not get involved.  I am told

19    that the USEPA regulations require that wherever asbestos

-0    removal occurs they have to be informed two weeks prior to

-l    removal.  Whether these industrial users follow that, I

--    don't know.  I know we have had problems.

-3              VOICE:  How often do you conduct your training

24    programs for contractors and architects that want to do

25    work with the State?

                        Acme  Reporting  Company


 l             DR. PATEL:   It has worked out to be  once  every

 2   month, but we don't have set dates  for these.   As the

 3   Department of Treasury  gets requests from people who want to

 4   get -on the list and they have  enough accumulated then  they

 5   call the training  course.   It  is  the Department of  Treasury

 6   with the EPA that  sets  up  the  training.

 7             VOICE:   Is  there any way  of assuring that the   •>

 8   workmen that are actually  there on  the site  have received

 9   this training?  I  am  sure  your contractor and  maybe his

10   vice president or  the superintendent might come, but the

11   day before they go to do the job  they hire 15  men off  the

12   street to go do the work.

13             DR. PATEL:   Of course,  you know, like everything .

14   else there can be  a problem.   We  try to work the system as

15   well as possible to help in making  sure that the

16   specifications are being followed.   In the past we  just used

17   to have a letter which  we  sent out  to each person that took

18   the course, and he is required to carry this letter to the

19   work site but we felt that, again,  that wasn't sufficient.

20   People forget to bring the letter.   So nov/ we  have  a card we

21   hand out, but that started recently with the last training

22   course, so they have  a  card with  their picture on the  card

23   to show that they  attended this course and they are required

24   to have that card  on  them  now.

95             VOICE:   While I  am here,  one question for the

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                                 !2O2> S28-4383


     gentleman  that just spoke from Pentagon Plastics, I guess

     it was.

 3             _MR.  REINHARDT:   He is out of the room.

 4              VOICE:   Maybe someone else can answer my question.

     I think  I  asked it once yesterday, but I will ask it again.

               What is the expected life of an encapsulation?

               VOICE:   I will  answer the question.

               First,' >I would like to say that it is kind of

 9    ironic that the state with the highest incidents of cancer

10    in the country would take such a dogmatic approach to a

u    very  complex question.  And I realize it is a Pontius Pilate

12    approach, I": cleanse mY hands, therefore I have nothing to do

13    wi.th  it  any further, by stating removal.

14              Can it be done?  I have heard two days of testimony

15    and we can't even find the proper method of detection, let

16    alone the  best system.  I am speaking for myself.  We have

17    done  a lot of research, not on a paint product that was

18    developed  specifically for asbestos.  We didn't take

19    anything we had on the shelf and apply it.

               And I can understand your disenchantment.  You are

91    dealing  with a lot of sealers and you can't even find out

99    where these people are from, what their past history is.

93    They  are generally one and two member companies that have

24    no track record.   Who have been around and they have just

95    found out  there is a lot of money to be made in asbestos

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 628-1888


 1    and they are there.   That goes for a lot of people that are

 2    here.   Panel members, I won't say what day, but everybody

 3    has a  hand in to see what they are going to grab out of it.

 4    Somebody is on the dole whether you work for EPA or Battelle,

 5    or you are working for any county, there is a reason to get

 6    involved,  or if you are a manufacturer.  We all have this.

 7    It is  part of the game.

 3              But we do have a serious problem and trying to

 9    resolve it.  The answer is not in a dogmatic approach of

10    saying, total approval.  If you take this approach, I

11    understand you did it with a committee.  That doesn't say

12    much.   That is a lot of anonymity.  We all did it in unison,

13    we will hang together.  How can anybody refute that?  How

14    do you get rid of your residuals?  When you get into the

15    duct system, where you can't possibly crawl in there, who

16    are you going to subject to that?  I don't care if he is

17    encapsulating with a sealant.  How are you going to reach

IS    into areas not humanly possible to reach?  You can get an

19    extension of an applicator and reach pretty far.  You can

20    seal it a'.s.is.

2i              I say we all take a close look at some of the

22    materials  that are being specified, and I have said this

23  !  before, look at the solids content.  You are paying for 90

24    percent water.  I heard testimony yesterday where they

25    abraded a surface with 10 strokes and they were able to

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (202) 62S-aS88





















21 '




get asbestos to fall off.  I have never seen an application

where our material was used like that.  We start off at

60 percent solids.  If you reduce it 2 to 1 with water,

that is only two-thirds.  We ended up with 36 percent on

the first penetrating coat.  We say saturate it.  Let it

sit there until the following day.  Then you go over that

the next day when thoroughly dry.

          That is the penetrating layer.  It seals the

asbestos as far back as it can go if suitable for

encapsulation if hard enough.  If it is soft, we tell them

remove it.  I say wet it down with, sealant.  Why? Because

if you use a wetting agent in water it will evaporate and

become airborne again.  If you saturate and reduce the
material with 4 or 5 gallons of water, I have plenty of

solids there, and I am speaking for my company.

          I think we make a damn good product.  I don't

understand why it wasn't approved and it came back.  We

did a lot of work with it.  We have high solids.  We have

more of I would say a yield in terms of that final film.

          That next coat is your laminating coat.  That

protects it.  How long will it last, it depends on the

composition.  Not all coatings are the same chemical.

Rubber oxidizes'with age and falls off.  If you use

something inert, then can last indefinitely.  Take 15, 20

years, and what will happen?  Nothing much.  That is why

                   Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (202) 628-1883


     they  retain their color and clarity.   How do we get the

     penetrating aspect?   We put in wetting agents to it.  It

 3    seeps  in  as much  as  possible.   We have done a lot of work

 4    with  this.

              And yet I  see post office box numbers for people

 6    supplying the materials.  Who are they?  They came out of

 7    the woodwork.  There is a lot of money to be made.  That is

     where  we  get a bad name.  New Jersey  doesn't want anything

 9    to do  with  it.   I can't blame them, but the education

10    process has to continue.

11             I understand what they are  going through and

12    they  are  given a  terrific burden, and if you are giving

13    nothing but alternatives that aren't  viable, this is what

14    is going  out th.ere.   You know what kind of money Y.9VL can

15    make  on something with 10 percent solids.  I would like to

16    sell  paint  like that and give you the balance, 90 percent

17    water.

18             If we prepare in a scientific manner and work
19    with  the  ASTM,  I  am  sure we can come  up with a system that

20    will  work and be  effective and we will have a nice, happy

21    medium.

22             That is all.

23             MR. REINHARDT:  Any other remarks?

24             VOICE:   I  assume the answer is the maximum would

25    be 15  to  20 years.  I just wonder if  the state is involved

                         Acme  Reporting Company
                                 12021 528-^838


 l   in programs that will only  last  15  or  20  years  for a

 2   building, are we going  to be  putting out  good money again  in

 3   15 or 20 years with the best  epoxy  coatings  that  are  put on?

 4             VOICE:   I am  Dick Macia,  from the  Government of

 5   Alberta.  I don't  have  any  advertising messages,  but  I am

 6   curious about the  effect on thermal values,  thermal

 7   insulation use of  sealants.   Does anybody know  anything about

    it?  Can you give  me any information?

 9             MR. SECOR:  In general, there has  not been  a great

10   deal of work done  in testing  the effect of encapsulants in

11   general on thermal properties.   In  general there  has  not

12   been a great deal  of work done in this area.  However, some

13   generalizations can be  made,  again, and it is very obvious.

14   Bridging agents lay on  the  surface. Therefore, probably

15   they are not going to have  a  great  deal of effect on  the

16   thermal efficiency of a given insulation  system,  assuming

17   that it is there for thermal  insulation purposes.   It will

18   have probably a great deal  of effect,  perhaps,  on accoustical

19   values.  Penetrating agents have less  effect in general

90   than bridging agents on accoustical values,  because they

2i   don't form a super thick film on the surface.

22             Penetrating agents, however,  probably in general

03   may affect thermal insulating values to a greater degree

24   perhaps than bridging agents  because they tend  to sink in

05   and provide more binder, thus it cuts  down on the so-called

                        Acme  Reporting Company
                                 (2O2) 623-4388


 1    "R" value.  We have test data run by the guarded hotplate

 2    method that show that there is relatively little change in

 3    the "D" factor that you obtain on mineral one inch of  ..

 4    thickness whether it be encapsulated or not.  The changes are

 5    too small to be of significance.

 6              The reason is, and I think those photomicrographs

 7    illustrated that you wind up with fibers being coated but

 8    there is interstitial space still there.  The air space is

 9    what provides the insulation value.

10              VOICE:  John Metka, Plexiglass Corporation of

11    Springfield, Virginia.

12              I see a lot of problems, but I wanted to address

13    a couple of them.  One, asbestos was specified and used

14    for many, many years basically for fireproofing.  Usually

15    when you end up specifying that the asbestos should be

16    removed, let's not even talk about the problems of removal,

17    you are going to have to replace that fireproofing with

18    other materials that do not burn in most cases or you are

19    going to strip the building of its fireproofing.

20              I think someone yesterday :. mentioned about how

21    steel will lose strength very quickly when heated to a high

22    degree.

23              The reason I bring this up is because it is being

24    discussed today and has been for the past two or three years,

25    to my best knowledge, that a lot of materials that we can

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now replace asbestos with mineral wool, cellulose,  fiberglass,

vermiculite, all these products, are as dangerous as  asbestos

due to the refined manufacturing methods, or they will soon

become as dangerous as asbestos.  I am wondering if we are

going to remove asbestos and replace it with something that

is equally as dangerous or close to equally as dangerous,

number one.  Number two, the problem seems to me, no  matter

what we use we will have to come up with binders to hold the

binders in place.

          To say, let's forget about encapsulation  and

remove, is smacking the problem in the face.  These fibers

will have to be bound together with some sort' of a

 :.c.hemical.  It seems to me research will have to be made

to come up with chemicals that will bind fibers together and

this is as good a place to start as any.

          A lot of people have taken a shot at New  Jersey

because of their unwavering position on this, and I do take

exception to it.  Part of the problem is th.at when you bid

these contracts, we are not a contractor, but we are  a

consulting firm in this particular arena, when people hear

about encapsulation they are expecting a low price, so

gentlemen like you sitting there representing the state beat

the contractors to death.  You bury him.  You want  $1.19

and another guy comes in with $1.12, and you want to  hear

$1.09, and it keeps going.

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                                 12021 628-1938














22 ll

          This gentleman says most contractors don't care

if they cut their products with starch.  I take great

exception to that.  I don't think we are crazy out here.

We live in the world as everybody else does.

          If the prices were higher, and there were better

specifications written for encapsulation for people to bid

the same thing, when you are removing you are bidding the

same thing.  I want all this stuff off.  You can get a pretty

close price.  But when you are specifying encapsulation, and

there are 30 products on the market, and many contractors,

and we are all bidding different penetrating rates,

different equipment, how can you get a price range?  I may

come in with one product that is better, and this gentleman

may come up with a product out of a post office box

someplace, and how do you compare that?  We need specification^

that say tlxere shall be 5 penetrating coats, there will be

2 bridging coats, and that way we can get people bidding

apples and apples, and see what is going on.

          I have listened to these conferences for three and

a half years, that there are so many types of asbestos, so

many-types of applications, so many different types of

slurries and suspensions, that they can't classify them,

i-e - alone say it should be encapsulated with this or that,

or removed.  How can you say we should do one thing and one

thing only if we can't specify th.e asbestos product, and how

                    Acme Reporting Company
                                 (202) 523-4888


 1    it  should be treated?

 2              I would like to hear coTtvments on that from anyone.

 3              MR.  McMAHON:  I will make a few comments.  You

 4    brought  up a very,  very important point.  Twenty years ago

 5    asbestos was required  in some cases, in schools, in other

 6    buildings, and I submit to you that 20 years ago we had

 7    questions.  We knew that asbestos caused disease, and yet

 8    we  went  ahead and used — like dummies — and used this

 9    asbestos containing material.

10              Right now we have some serious questions on

H    sealants and I suggest to you I don't want to be around

12    20  years from now when the sealants fail.  I don't want to

13    be  the one with the finger pointing at me saying, why did

14    you let  them use this  sealant?  Plow could you do that?

15              DR.  PATEL:  I would like to mention that last

16    year at  EPA th.ey held  a national conference on Substitutes

17    for asbestos,  so obviously everybody is looking at what are

!8    the substitutes, and at that conference they discussed what
19    will be  the potential  health effects of these substitutes.

20    Again, th.at is a very  valid question.  I think you raised some

9} •    very good questions there.

99              In terms of  the requirements for specifications,

03    again I  think we feel  the same way, and that is why I feel —

94    you recall in our comments we said that the EPA should come

25    up   with, clear guidelines.  I think it is a Federal agency

                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 <2O2) 623-4888


 l   that has  to  do  this.   I  don't think it is at the state level

 2   that one  can come up  with  these answers.   Some of these have

 3   to  come from the  Federal agencies.

 4             MR. REINHARDT:  One other point with regard to

 5   the specifications.   I agree with  you completely that more

 6   tight  specifications  are needed, but I am not sure that

 7   your suggestion about requiring a  given number of coats

 8   of  penetrant or a given  number of  bridging coats would

 9   really deal  with  the  problem, given that some of the

10   products  do  seem  to be so  much worse than others.

11             I  would be  interested to discuss with you other

12   ways in which, you think  that encapsulation specifications

13   could  be  improved.

14             VOICE:   My  name  is Fred  Cudwaemer.  I am a

15   contractor.   I  would  like  to ask the guy from UL — I have

16   read a lot of literature from paint manufacturers that their

17   products  pass UL  E-84 approval. First off, have there been

18   any systems  that  have been tested  with, an encapsulant?  How

19   did they  perform? And what is your opinion as to how they

20   are going to relate?   And  we got into that a little bit a

2i   few years ago with adding  bat insulation above accounstial

22   sealing type of situations.

23             MR. BERHINIG:  Again, this is a panel discussion.

24   Paints have  been  evaluated in accordance to the-E-84 method,

05   and if you look at E-84  it is to determine the surface

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2O2I 628-.1888


 1   flammability and the capacity to generate smoke from a

 2   sufacing material.   It could be a paint, a wall surfacing

 3   material, many numerous examples.  To date I am unaware of

 4   any encapsulant being evaluated as a system.  They may have

 5   evaluated on a noncombustible substrate like a cement board.

 6             In th.e ASTM discussions that will begin again

 7   tomorrow, what we are looking at there is essentially

 8   encapsulants as applied to a substrate that has the same

 9   type of physical — in terms of surface flammability and

10   smoke generation capacity as the existing asbestos containing

11   materials, similar properties there.  And what we will be

12   discussing tomorrow will be the evaluation in the E-84

13   method and equipment using a test sample that will consist

14   of a substrate like the existing material, plus the

15   encapsulant.  And I believe that will address the question

16   directly on what will be used in the field in the future in

17 I  terms of if encapsulants are used will the surface

18   flammability be improved or will it be decreased.  What

19   will the surface flammability be, and does that comply with

20   the local building codes.

21              VOICE:  What about the installations going on now

22    where there is an encapsulant going over fireproofing that

23    has not been tested as a system?  Does that violate the

24    uniform building code?

25              MR. BERHINIG:  Any contractor or building official

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (202) 623-4888


1    or state of ficials'-that are currently using encapsulants,

2    prior to that encapsulant being applied,there are existing

3    building codes, be it the surface.-flammability or fire

4    resistance.  These building code requirements don't change

5    whether the encapsulant is used or not.  So the main thing

6    you have to assure yourself is that when this encapsulant

7    is applied the overall fire performance of the structure

8    has not been decreased.  You still retain the same type of

9    surface flammability as required by the code.

10              Typically, in school building, I believe the code

11    refers to a flame spread of 25 or less as a cut-off number,

12    Class A material.  I will ask you, say if you are using the

13    encapsulant as a contractor, when you apply'it to the

14    asbestos containing material is the flame spread in excess

15    of 25?

16              That is the type of data that when you purchase

17    the material or when you go to th.e state school board, or

18    local government, that they should be asking you to provide,

19    because not only is it a matter of encapsulating the

20    asbestos material, the number one concern in terms of why

21    you are applying the encapsulant.  But you don't want a

22    situation resulting which has a fire safety point of view

23    that is more severe, in terms of life safety, than the

24    asbestos containing material would have been untreated.

25              VOICE:  I don't think a contractor -- a cementitious

                         Acme Reporting  Company


 l    ceiling  that  you  are  spraying,  that is probably gypsum

 2    plaster/  you  are  not  going to have a problem,  but spray on

 3    fireproofing, there is  some question as to how much you fill

 4    up  the void,  if you do  fill up  the void, the transmission

 5    of  heat,  something probably could happen.  I,  as a contractor,

 6    could not say whether it would  be —

 7              MR. BERHINIG:   It is  really not in your bailiwick.

 8              VOICE:   So  how can a  manufacturer tell an architect

 9    that, hey, it has been  UL tested, you can go ahead and do it?

10    And it has happened in  a lot of cases.

11              MR. BERHINIG:   The UL testing with the follow-up

12    service  and labels, the sealants, the paints,  the coatings,
13    the spray fibers, one of the things on any of those labels

14    is  what  does  the  label  signify.  Does it signify the

15    application of this sealant on  asbestos cement board?

16    The certification givQs:  you a number.  Is that relevant to

17    what you are  doing in the field?  Maybe I am addressing it

18    to  the wrong  person.  Maybe it  should be addressed to the

19    various  building  code officials and people that are

20    enforcing the local codes, but  when you see the various

2i    labels or documents from, whatever the manufacturers are

22    supplying you, is that  pertinent to its application?  That

93    is  a question that building officials r--r.ve to answer, and

94    that is  what  they are charged to do by law.

25              VOICE:   I think what  the manufacturers mean to

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                                 12021 628-4888


    state is it is Class A, not combustible, but it does not

 2   have a UL rating or a testing procedure like test assembly

 3   U-149, which is a system of blank, blank, blank.

 4             MR. BERHINIG:  Let us use Class A material.  Class

    A signifies material that has a relatively low surface

 6   flammability.  Well, that is applied to asbestos cement

 7   board probably, and it is at a certain application rate.  Is

    that the same type of substrate that you .are having in the

 9   field?  Is it the same type of application rate?  The

10   classification applies to certain criteria, certain conditions,

    and the ASTM work, maybe another way of looking at it, if the

12   ASTM document proceeds aecording to its original plans, would

    be that the encapsulant we are talking about here complies


    designation may be.  Here would be a performance specification

16   and the assurance to the building official, or to the owner,

17   that, in fact, this encapsulant was evaluated as being

18   applied to a certain substrate, which is going to be applied

19   in the field, something similar to the asbestos containing

    material at a certain application rate, and under these

91   conditions this type of performance exists.  The surface

    flammability is something, does it meet the current code

    requirements, yes or no.  Numbers are there for your comparisoi

    That is really not available today.

              VOICE:  I agree.

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 I2O2I 623-4838

  with the requirements of ASTM, whatever the standard


 1              MR.  BERHINIG:   There are many different facts to

 2    this  proposed  ASTM standard,  and the fact that is applied

 3    to  fire  performance is what is being addressed directly.

 4    Again, the goal  of the whole thing is will the use of

 5    encapsulants detract from the overall fire performance of

 6    the building system that the portion of the fire property

 7    ASTM  standard  is trying  to address.   If that proceeds, you

 8    will  have your answer that you are asking for.

 9              Maybe  we are getting more  of a panel discussion now,

10              VOICE:  If I understand what you implied,  probably

11    the implication  of what  you said xvill set us back another

12    three years.

13             'MR.  BERHINIG:   I hope not.

14              VOICE:  I wonder.  I am sure you do recognize the

15    implication, but I am wondering if the rest of the people

16    here  do.   What you are saying is that UL, or no testing

17    agency that you  are aware of, is going to say that the

18    material  will  meet code  specifications, because there is

19    only  one person  or — the only people that can make that

20    determination  are the code people themselves.  What you are

21    saying is that this will be determined by testing by UL,

22    maybe Factory  Mutual, and ASTM.

23              MR.  BERHINIG:   ASTM does test methods.  Get UL

24    out of it, because I am  an employee of UL.  Anybody can

25    conduct  tests  in accordance with ASTM documents and provide

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                                 (2O2I 628-4888


 l   the reports if they have the proper equipment.

 2             VOICE:  Yes.  What really happens  is  that the

 3   building codes require testing  for approval  from  approved

 4   agencies.  In all probability that will  include UL7 it will

 5   include other testing agencies  that they have approved.  But

 6   the problem to the manufacturer here is  that the  way you

 7   explained it, and probably  the  way it will happen, is  that

 8   the material has to be tested in the manner  intended for use.

 9             MR. BERHINIG:  That is always  the  case.

10             VOICE:  But that  is the bad news.  The  bad news is

H   that you redly can't even yet identify all of the different

12   kinds of asbestos that there is, whi.ch means that a

13   manufacturer — I am not a  manufacturer  — but  the
14   implications of the manufacturers — the manufacturer  may

15   have 20, ~as many as 20, if  it can ever be determined,

16   different substrates to test about or with or for' —

17             MR. BERHINIG:  Can I  interrupt?

18             VOICE:  This isn't free.

19             MR. BERHINIG:  Can I  interrupt with one statement?

20   There are many different types  of substrates available.

2i   Currently, though, I cannot use asbestos containing materials

99   in our laboratory.  No one  else can.  So xvhat the ASTM

03   document is going to propose is that there be two substrate

24   materials to be used, only  two, and one  of these  substrate

25   materials would represent,  let's say the spray  — call it a

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 (202! 628-4683


      generic  name,  a sprayed fibrous fireproofing material, and

  2    the  other substrate  would be a cementitious type material.

  3    Those  are the  only two.

                In terms of the fire properties from the test

      experience that we have had at UL and at other laboratories,

  6    we have  seen that the existing nonasbestos materials that

  7    are  available  today, that are used today, can adequately

  8    represent the  asbestos containing materials in the two

  9    categories,  so I can't duplicate each and every case, but

 10    I am trying to simulate the two main types of materials,

 11    which  are the  sprayed fibers and cemtitious materials, so

 12    we are down to two.

 13              VOICE:  You also have th.e responsibility of

 14    convincing them that what you say is correct, or ASTM will.

 15              MR.  BERHINIG:  If they want to use the proposed

 16    ASTM documents.

 17              VOICE:  That makes me feel better.  The

 18    manufacturers  couldn't afford to be tested for —

 19              MR.  BERHINIG:  If you want to open up another

 20    bag  of worms,  take fire resistance.  We talked about

 21    surface  flammability being a simple item to test because

 22    the  test methods are here and ready. This gets involved

 23    in the fire protection of building systems, be it a simple

 24    case,  column beams.   Try more complex situation, floor-

95    ceiling assemblies, where you may have a variety of different

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
  '                               (2O2I 529.4383


 1   types of steel  flooring.   A more  complex  area,  roof  decks,

 2   where you have  again  steel with lack,  of stiffness  from the

 3   concrete, a whole different set of  situations,  but again

 4   the hourly fire  resistance is  required.   So  the number of

 5   different variables here  is immense,  and  the direction that

 6   ASTM is taking  is to  develop a set  of materials that will

 7   simulate known  properties in terms  of building  construction,

 8   steel floor deck, maybe a sand topping, maybe certain  spans,

 9   but essentially relying on the expertise  developed by  the

10   various people  that construct  these tests on a  routine

11   basis.

12             The purpose of  the test will be to evaluate  the

13   performance of  these  simulated coating materials with  and

14   without th.e encapsulant.   Again the purpose  or  goal  of

15   these type of investigations is not to improve  the overall

16   performance, but mainly that we do  not significantly reduce

17   it.

18             VOICE:  I understand what you have said.  I  heard

19   it referred to  that it will be a  year and a  half before

20   ASTM will even  have the tests  established.   My  experience

21   has shown it takes two to two  and half years.  In  the

22   meantime  I wonder what the legal  implication is to the

23   contractors here.  Every  encapsulation job they do at  this

24   point,  there couldn't possibly be a code  approved.  For

25   the next  two and a half, years  will  all the contractors be

                        Acme  Reporting Company
                                 1302) 628-4888


 1   doing non-code-approved  encapsulations?

 2             In referring to  specifications,  somebody back here

 3   mentioned specifications,  like  -.specifying  five  coats.  I

 4   don't agree with that.   I  think that  th.e best way to specify

 5   something is to set  standards of performance and then

 6   everybody can  compete on an  equal basis.   It is difficult  to

 7   establish standards  of performance, but I  think that

 8   probably will  come out of  these committee  meetings,ultimately,

 9   not how to do  it, but what is wanted  and what is needed.

10             MR.  BERHINIG:  In  terms of  performance, I totally

11   agree with you.  And that  is the direction that the ASTM

12   standards are  taking, performance.  Not how to  do it,  but

13   when it is up  there  what should it be able to do.  Strictly

14   performance.

15             In terms of your otiier question  on the building

16   firms, that is a one on  one, when you do your work, and I

17   believe it was Minnesota or ^Minneapolis, you contact the

18   local building firm.  Whatever  is available in  the State of

19   New York, he makes his best  decision.

20             VOICE:  You can't  ask a building official a

2i   question without having  any  answers,  even  I know that. To

22   ask that kind  of a question  you must  already be programmed

23   with an answer or it is  his  responsibility to say, I don't

24   know, because  you haven't  convinced him, and as a result it

25   is his responsibility to say, no. So I would be interested

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in hearing from anybody that can say where the contractor in

this room stands.

          MR. BERHINIG:  In terms of the contractor, when

you are talking to the building official, it would be the

next legal step backwards to the material supplier.  You,

the contractor, can't supply the performance data.  It

should be the person supplying you the material.

          VOICE:  Is there one manufacturer in this room —

there are three major building codes in the country, four

if you want to include national, nobody ever does, is there

anybody that manufactures here that meets code compliance

with any of their products in anything concerning the state

of the art?

          VOICE: Are you talking about fireproofing,


          VOICE:  Actually I would say that I could refer to

anything that requires code approval.

          VOICE:  Let's take a surface that had asbestos on

it with, a certain flame spread rate.

          VOICE:  No, sir, in a manner intended for use.

That is, anybody here done any testing in the manner

intended for use that has been code approved?

          VOICE:  We are talking about coatings.  You say

a manner intended for use.

          VOICE:  Yes.  You manufacture a coating, which you

                    Acme  Reporting  Company


    obviously do, and there is asbestos on this ceiling, and

 2   it is a specific kind of asbestos that I don't know, but

 3   you do.  Are you in a position to say that you have been

 4   tested over that substrate because that is using your

 5   material in the manner intended for use and if you have a

 6   code approval —

 7             VOICE:  Definitely not.

 8             VOICE:  Now, that answers your question, you see.

 9   Now, the contractor is really the one that is sitting out

10   here that is wide open, because so long as — it will take

11   ASTM to promulgate the things that you say are.coming out —

12   we then are not in compliance with: the building codes.

13             MR. BERHINIG:  We have one other —

14             VOICE:  I want to make a point on that.  If you

15   don't detract from anything on the building code, then I

16   could safely feel that we are in compliance.  In other words,

17   if I did not —

18             MR. BERHINIG: Again, the goal of the ASTM work that

19   we are doing is not to improve —

20             VOICE:  To maintain.

              MR. BERHINIG:  Not to specifically reduce, because

22   look, some of the surface coatings, someone brought up about

    a gypsum coat.  I hate to use numbers, but maybe I will.

    Surface flammability of the gypsum"coating may be zero,

25   let's say.  The building code says so long as it is 25 or

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 <2O2> 628-4888


 1    less.   So what happens if I use an encapsulant that increases

 2    the surface flammability from zero to 15?  Either way you

 3    have increased the surface flammability, but you still comply

 4    with the code.

 5              VOICE:  If you have been tested.

 6              MR. BERHINIG:  It is not a matter of — you could

 7    get a higher surface flammability, but in all cases you

 8    still comply .with the local codes.

 9              VOICE:  I am a code official who also has the

10    responsibility for asbestos, okay?  And I am one of those

11    building officials.  Now, the position we have taken in

12    Alberta is very simple.  If the material being used as an

13    encapsulant has a conformity for flame spread rating under

14    E-84, or the equivalent Canadian test, we have been

15    accepting it as an encapsulant over decorative or thermal

16    or accoustical uses.  We have not to date accepted it over

17    fire — where it requires a fire resistant rating, because

18    we don't know what it does.
19              I am looking forward with some anticipation to the

20    time when I can also say, yes, you may use it in that

21    situation.  And I think from the code officials I have talked

22    to who get saddled with this job, that this is a very

23    general position that they have accepted so far,

24              MR. BERHINIG:  Well, to answer your second question,

25    your second concern, that is one of the items to be resolved

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2021 S2S-dBB8


 1   by ASTM and one of the  items  to be  discussed  tomorrow,  that

 2   you will have that type of  ,  say  test  protocol  to  answer

 3   your question.

 4             Anyone else on  the  general topic  area?

 5             VOICE:  George  Grossman,  Public Works, Canada.

 6             Someone asked the New Jersey gentleman about

 7   residual asbestos and hard  to get at surfaces,  but I  didn't

 8   hear an answer.

 9             I am going back to  another point  here that  was

10   raised, the use of encapsulants for residual  asbestos after

11   removal and in hard to  get  at places where  it is impossible

12   to move steel beams, and  so on, structural  elements.  What

13   do you do about that?

14             DR. PATEL:  The residual, like I  say, in our

15   specifications we call  for  air monitoring during,  after,

16   before.  And so unless  there  is so  much, of  a  residue  that it

17   is going to increase the  air  levels, obviously  we  consider

18   that to be cleaned up.

19             There is. no problem in  terms of using sealants

20   either during or after  doing  a removal job.   We have  nothing

21   against that.  I mentioned  previously  that  this is not  a

22   regulation, but a recommendation, and  that  as more information

23   becomes available, we are still looking.  It  is not like  a

24   closed question.  We should realize that.   But  presently, yes,

25   that is our position, that  sealants are not suitable.

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 1202) 523-4338


 1             MR.  GROSSMAN:   For hard to get at surfaces?

 2             DR.  PATEL:   If  somebody comes  up to us and shows

 3   that there  is  no way  of controlling it except for using a

 4   sealant,  I  am  sure we would be willing to sit down and look

 5   at this and see how we can  advise them on their, specific

 6   problems.

 7             MR.  GROSSMAN:   So you are sort of open on those

 8   points?

 9             DR.  PATEL:   Yes.

10             MR.  GROSSMAN:   I  have another question.  This is

11   not in connection with sealants.   It is  in connection with

12   different types of asbestos and the algorithm discussed.  Is

13   there any thought given to  considering th.e differences in the

14   types of  asbestos* as  factors in the algorithm, that is

15   chrysotile  and amosite and  crocidolite?

16             MR.  REINHARDT:  Not to my knowledge.  I don't think

17   any United  States agency  has made any differentiation between

18   chrysitile  and crocidolite  in any regulatory documents.

19   Does that answer the  question?

20             MR.  GROSSMAN:   It does, 'I guess.  You are not

21   considering the differences.  A lot of people feel there are

22   differences, that some of them are more hazardous than others,

23   That should be a factor,  should it not,  to be considered in

24   reaching  a  control mechanism?

25             MR.  REINHARDT:   Perhaps it should.  The EPA's

                        Acme Reporting  Company


    position at this point is that  there isn't a difference

 2   between chrysotile and amosite.

 3             DR. PATEL:  I think I would like to mention, it is

 4   not only EPA, but the OSHA-NIOSH Committee.  I don't know

    if you know about the seven member  committee that OSHA and

    NIOSH just discussed occupational exposure, and that committee

    and several other reports have  stated clearly that all

 8   forms of asbestos are considered to present a hazard.  So

 9   we have more of the cancer, so  we have more of the asbestosis,

10   but all has a cancer risk.

11             VOICE: There is no extra weight given to amosite?

12             DR. PATEL:  No.  It would be harder to get that

13   kind of "information to be able  to use it in an algorithm.

14             VOICE:  It is a factor when deciding on a control.

15   You can't help but consider the type you are dealing with.

16             DR. PATEL:  Right.

17             MR. REINHARDT;  Are there any other questions?

18             VOICE:  My name is Bill Brennan, with American

19   Coatings Company.  I want to thank  Forest and the staff, first

-0   of all.  I think it was a very  good seminar over two days,

21   and the panel discussions were  great.

              I would like to ask the gentleman from New Jersey,

23   how many schools did you say you had in the system?

24             DR. PATEL:  Total number  of schools that are under

25   the State Department of Education is 2500.

                        Acme Reporting Company






















          VOICE:  And you had 250 with friable material?

          DR. PATEL:  I wanted to mention that earlier.

The State Department of Education did a telephone survey

about two or three years back, and it was not just a one-time

survey, they called several times, and that is how we got

that information, that there are 3,250 schools.  Obviously,

since then we realize that there are some not on there

which, do have asbestos, so maybe another 10 percent more or

something.  Yes, that is the number that had been used.

And the figure that Tony mentioned earlier and that the

Mt. Sinai group  just confirmed, that about 90 percent of the

ones that said they had asbestos did really have asbestos.

By doing a small study of 20 schools out of these 250.

          VOICE:  You first found about this in 1976?

          DR. PATEL:  I think '17 was when the State

Department of Education did the original telephone survey.

          VOICE:  Could you tell me how many schools you

have where the asbestos has actually been removed?

          DR. PATEL:  I heard just before Doming  here about

100 have removed it, so that we feel that the most

hazardous situation has been taken care of in the schools.

          VOICE:  I  take a little rebuttal to your previous

petition.  You may be right or you may be wrong.  Before

las^: Christmas my young brother died of mesothelioma.  He

weighed 203 and finally weight 110 when he went into the

                   Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 1202) 628-4888


 1    hospital.   Th.e death, was horrible.  It completely debilitates

 2    a man.   When he died he was 75 pounds.  He looked 250 years

 3    old.   His  hair had turned from black to grey, he was commetic,

 4    bleeding from the eyes, on life support, he had mesothelioma

 5    and the only thing that is traced to is; these fibers and if

 6    one fiber  enters the lung there isn't away of reversing this.

 7    It becomes immediately irreversible and cancerous.

 8              No matter how many studies are done, it behooves

 9    everybody  to get on the ball and get this rolling.  There

10    is no doubt that a removal method possibly is the best

11    method, no doubt about it.  I recommended removal in

12    Brownsville, Texas, a job I had been on because it was only

13    $40,000 more to remove 60,000 square feet, and I advised

14    to remove  it.

15              I am not making a pitch, for a product.  Our

16    product is a 16 year old product submitted to Georgia-

17    Battelle test.  It came out as one of the 10 "A" rated

18    products.   We have never had a complaint on it.  Our
19    laboratory is presently conducting an aging test to find out

20    how many years we can actually safely predict that an

21    encapsulant will last.

22              But it is your duty not to let a child sit in a

23    schoolroom an extra day absorbing a fiber into his lungs,

24    even if you have to take the alternative method.  There is

25    no field of evaluation at the present time that says that

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 (2O2I S23-4S88


 1    you can take a contractor and give him one day of lessons

 2    and call him a contractor on asbestos removal.  There isn't

 3    anybody in the country that is that qualified.  I don't know

 4    how many contractors you list in the state, but I would

 5    submit that they probably all are incompetent and you do

 6    have a high, incidence of cancer in New Jersey.

 7              I am willing to say if you do not open your eyes

 8    and take an alternative method, as well as removal, and I

 9    am sure New Jersey doesn't have anough money, because you

10    estimate 100 out of 250, people 25 years from now will say

11    New Jersey, the cancer state of th.e nation.  Even if you

12    have to encapsulate now, do something, because every time

13    a child sits in the classroom, if they absorb one fiber

14    it becomes cancerous 25 or 30 or 35 years later, and you

15    will have a nation of cripples.

16              If you do encapsulate, 8 or 9 years down the line

17    you may come up with enough funding to go over an already

18    encapsulated job if it hasn't proved good and remove that

19    asbestos.  But your duty is to the children in your state.

20    I submit that 15 years from now they will still be saying

21    that New Jersey is in the 18th year of this three-year

22    program.

23              DR. PATEL:  I would certainly like to comment on

24    that and say that it seems to me that New Jersey, amongst

25    a few other states, has been most active in doing something

                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 1202) 628-a388


 1   about this health hazard.   It  seems  to me  that  maybe  that  is

 2   why we have been picked upon.  This  same thing  exists  in

 3   every other state besides New  Jersey, so I think  that

 4   question should be addressed to every state and,  therefore,

 5   to the Federal agencies, again, to come up with strong

 6   regulations.  I don't  think it is up to the state.

 7             If you can come up with a  sealant,  and  I  agree,  I

 8   have seen your publications, you mailed them  to me, I

 9   appreciate that very much.  And I am very  interested  in

10   knowing of all the means of control.  But  if  you  can  tell  me

11   that your sealant will not have one  asbestos  fiber  after

12   it is used or any other sealant, you are defeating  your own

13   question, having to guarantee  there  is no  fiber in  the room.

14   I don' t think anybody  can do that.

15             VOICE:  You  must  start somewhere.   We have  a lab

16   test and we have chemists who  are working  on  the  problems

17   you are talking about.  Meantime, you take an outfit  like

18   the Board of Education in Chicago,   Today  they  are  opening

19   up five bids.  They opened  up  21 before.   They  have got

20   4 more ready.  They are even doing inhouse work they  feel

21   they can handle because they were trained  under some

22   guidelines.  They have taken the position  that  they are

23   trying something.

24             Most of the  work  going on  there  today is  removal,

25   and most competent people have recommended removal  because

                        Acme Reporting  Company
                                 (202) 628-4888


     they have schools 16 or 17 years old that have sprayed on

     insulation there in World War II.  In those schools the

 3    insulation was falling off, but th.ey definitely needed to

 4    be removed. But they have cementitious walls they are going

     to encapsulate, and it will do until next, year when they

     have more money.

               Everything in this country is down, so the bottom

     line is, where do we get the money,  I recently ran into a

 9    man that cannot raise over $20,000.  He has 22,000 square

10    feet and he is going to try to encapsulate with his own

11    help.  He can do it.  It is an effort on his part to control

12    the atmosphere where the children are going to school.

13    It is a stop gap measure, but he is trying .to control it now

14    with the idea if the economy improves, four or five years

15    down the line he can remove, if necessary.

16              There is nobody to say that a good "A" rated

17    highly approved sealant will not work forever.  No one can

18    say that.

19              VOICE: That fellow, and I know you sell quite a few

20    times to owners, how long do they go through your training

21    program?

22              VOICE:  We have a different situation.  We have

23    a manufacturer and merely subinit the results of the Columbus-

24    Battelle tests to people.  We know 5 or 6 highly competent

25    applicators and if someone asks us for a list of qualified

                         Acme  Reporting  Company





















EPA guideline type of applicators, then we submit the names,

but we have nothing to do with the application.  We are

merely manufacturers of a product, and we do not hold

school, although we have the EPA slides, we have all the
documents, if you want to come and look at the slides, that

is available.

          VOICE:  A lot of manufacturers do the same thing.

Here is a good product.  It has been approved.  It is on.the

Battelle labs.  Here is a list of contractors.  You don't

have the money, we will sell it to you.

          VOICE:  You are overlooking something.  To get

this program started at its ^inception, it had to start

somewhere.  I personally think Mr. Mirick did a hell of a

job, and he did come out with a list of sealants.  Some

sealant manufacturers felt offended when they got a

marginal rating.  We also submitted a penetrant at that

particular time, and we got a marginal rating, because of

smoke emission.  Rather than sell it we took it off the

market and are trying to reformulate it.

          VOICE:  I am not addressing your product.  I am

addressing you teaching contractors to apply the product in

a one day seminar, or sending a salss representative down

to train four or five people because t/.3~ f.on' t have the

money to engage a qualified contractor.

          VOICE:  In our Midwestern area we have contractors

                    Acme  Reporting  Company


 1   who will go out and work a day with people who are going to

 2   do this, especially in house jobs, and there is no charge

 3   on it.

 4             VOICE:  Your training program is a day?

 5             VOICE:  We don't have a training program.  We try

 6   and assist people if they ask.  We don't have a training

 7   program.  We don't charge for anything except our material.

 8             MR. DORSEY:  We are out of time.  I encourage

 9   the two or three in the discussion here to connect after

10   the session.  As you can see, everyone here has had some

11   experience and opinion about sealants and the use of

12   encapsulanting agents.  As I said at the beginning of the

13   session, the purpose of the session was to establish a

14   dialogue, exchange information, primarily research findings

15   on the use of sealants and encapsulating agents.  I said

16   before we don't have all the answers.  I really appreciated

17   the dialogue and the discussions.  I continue to solicit

18   your  comments and suggestions.

19             Next year we will be working with ASTM to develop

20   protocols and continue our work with sealants.  We do not

2i   have  money to fund research concerning specific products.

22   The work done at Battelle was about a two year study.  We

23   are past that point now.  We will not have money to evaluate

24   additional sealants.  Our work will have to be with

05   associations, contractors et cetera, manufacturers, to

                        Acme Reporting Company
                                 I2O2I 628-4888


 1   promote the successful  use of  sealants.

 2             I do appreciate your comments  and  everyone  for

 3   coming and being so vocal, and providing me  with  information,

 4   Thank you.

 5             MR. REINGHARDT:  I have  just a couple of

 6   announcements before you leave,  if you don't mind.

 7             Proceedings of this  conference will be  sent to

 8   everybody who signed their names on the  list outside,

 9   the ones that said  "Mailing List"  at the top.   If you want

10   additional copies of anything  that was given out  at  this

11   meeting, you can call EPA's toll free number,  which  is

12   listed in the orange guidance  document.

13             I want to thank you  for  coming,  too.  I think I

    have learned a lot in the last few days.   I  hope  some of

15   you have as well.

16             (Whereupon, at 3:25  p.m.,  the  conference was

17   adjourned.)





                        Acme  Reporting  Company
                                 12021 623-4388

                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE


 5   CASE  TITLE:Conference on Encapsulation of Asbestos-Containing
                Building Materials
 6   REARING DATE:  June 9, 1981

 7   LOCATION:"Arlington, Virginia


 9              I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence

10   herein  are contained fully and.accurately on the tapes and

11   notes reported by 'me at the hearing in the above case before

12  "U.S.  Environmental Protection Agency

13   and that this  is a true and correct transcript of the same.



16                                  Date:  June 18,. 1981



20                                  Official Reporter
                                   Acme Reporting Company, Inc.
21                                  1411 E Street, N.W.
                                   Washington, D.C.  20005




                         Acme  Reporting  Company
                                  1202) 528-4338