SEPA
EPA Region ill
Compendium of
Transcripts and CIP/IA
Coding - Information
Needs Identification
Public Meetings
May 6, 1999
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Compendium of Transcripts and CIP/IA Coding
for EPA Region III Public Meetings on Environmental Information
This package contains:
1. Background and CIP/IA Coding Key
2. Charlottesville, Virginia, Librarians Discussion Group, February 23, 1999 — Transcript
3. Charlottesville, Virginia, Librarians Discussion Group — CIP and IA Coding
4. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Media Discussion Group, March 4, 1999 - Transcript
5. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Media Discussion Group — CIP and IA Coding
6. Salisbury, Maryland, Local Environmental Group Discussion Group, March 11, 1999 —
Transcript
7. Salisbury, Maryland, Local Environmental Group Discussion Group — CIP and IA Coding
8. York, Pennsylvania, Small Business Discussion Group, March 16, 1999 — Transcript
9. York, Pennsylvania, Small Business Discussion Group - CEP and IA Coding
10. Frederick, Maryland, Environmental Educators Discussion Group, March 18, 1999 --
Transcript
11. Frederick, Maryland, Environmental Educators Discussion Group -- CIP and IA Coding
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Background and CIP/IA Coding Key
Background
The following pages contain the transcripts for the five Region III Public Sector Needs
Identification Team public meetings. The compilation is divided by meeting and date:
1) Charlottesville, Virginia, Librarians, February 23,1999; 2) Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Media
Issues, March 4, 1999; 3) Salisbury, Maryland, Local Environmental Groups, March 11, 1999;
4) York, Pennsylvania, Small Business Interests, March 16, 1999; and 5) Frederick, Maryland,
Environmental Educators, March 18, 1999.
Each transcript was also examined with regard to the Customer Information Process (CIP) and
the Information Attributes (IA) framework, adopted by EPA to compile and categorize meeting
commentary. CIP and IA coding tables follow the transcript for each group, and contain quotes
from the public meetings that speak to this framework.
The CIP has four basic elements: Identification (establishing the existence and location of
information); Acquisition (obtaining the information in an appropriate format); Management
(adapting, translating, integrating, or combining the information to the customer's unique
purpose); and Use (applying, interpreting, or assimilating the information in a value-added
manner). Topical attributes for the IA analysis include: Media (e.g., air, water); Industry (sector),
Geography (e.g., site specific, local, regional); Legislation/Regulation; Time Dimension (e.g.,
update schedule); Demographics; Accuracy/Reliability; and Other Topics such as health concerns.
CIP and IA Coding Key
For each table, columns are from left to right: the EPA Region, which for all groups will be
Region III, or R-III; the Meeting number from 1 to 5 in chronological order; the Page number
and Line number from the transcript where each quote begins; Category 1 and Category 2 (Cat
1 and Cat 2), which contain the codes for elements of the CIP and IA that each quote represents
(there may only be one category that applies); and Text, which contains the text of the direct
quote from the transcript.
The codes used for Category columns are as follows:
Customer Information Process Information Attributes
I Identification m Media
A Acquisition i Industry
M Management gd Geography/Demographics
U Use r Legislation/Regulation
td Time Dimension
a Accuracy/Reliability
t Topics
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U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region III
Public Meeting on Environmental Information
+ + -f + +
Charlottesville, VA, Librarians Discussion Group
+ + + + +
February 23, 1999
The Outreach Discussion met at the Omni
Charlottesville Hotel, 235 W. Main Street,
Charlottesville, Virginia at 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m.,
Laurie Davidson, moderator.
PRESENT:
JIM BARNS, Jefferson-Madison Regional Library
KRISTA FARRELL, Jefferson-Madison Regional Library
ROCHELLE GARWOOD, Thomas Jefferson Planning District
Commission
PHIL HEARN, Rockingham Public Library
JOHN HERMSMEIER, Environmental Education Center
LINDSAY IDESON, Jefferson-Madison Regional Library
WALTER NEWSOME, UVA Library Government Information
MARY PLUM, Jefferson-Madison Regional Library
DENISE STEPHENS, UVA, Science and Engineering Library
CINDI WOLFF, U.S. Department of the Interior Library
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1 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) I wanted to welcome all of
2 you here tonight and to tharik you so much for coming out
3 in the cold to help us on our project. I'm the library
4 manager in Region III and that's one of the information
5 functions in the Regional Office. We also have an
6 environmental education function. We have a toll free
7 hotline and we also have some of our programs. Programs
8 being water program, air program, hazardous waste
9 program. We also have information services to the
10 public. The library does serve internal staff as well
11 as external staff. The problem is that all this isn't
12 working at optimum speed, and we recognize that. And we
13 thought, before we start making improvements or
14 rebuilding our information services to the public, it
15 would be a good idea to go out and ask the public
16 exactly what they would like from us in terms of
17 environmental information services and how best we can
18 give that information. And we thought that librarians
19 would be an ideal place to start. You are our first
20 group of six, because librarians have a good handle on
21 what the general public is asking for. All of you
22 represent different kinds of libraries. There are
23 public librarians here, university librarians, and some
24 special information service folks here. So you have a
25 broad range of types of public that you serve. The
26 results from these six groups, and there will be others
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1 with the media, with environmental educators, with
2 medical specialists, and so on who use environmental
3 information and pass it on to another group. This is
4 being analyzed by Princeton Economic Research, Deborah
5 and Laurie's colleagues, and this will be presented to
6 our regional administrator and to our senior management
7 staff. So you do have the attention of the top folks in
8 the regional office and they will take the results of
9 this very seriously because we do understand that the
10 public needs environmental information. If you have any
11 questions, I will be glad to answer them. We will be
12 giving you some literature at the end of the session and
13 I'll be happy to answer any questions at the end of the
14 program as far as what the library does or what services
15 we offer. Is there anybody who has any questions about
16 the group or what we intend to do? Okay. In that case
17 I'll turn it over to Laurie, and thank you again for
18 coming.
19 MODERATOR: Thank you very much Diane, and let
20 me just say I too am very grateful that you could be
21 here tonight. Diane went over most of my introduction,
22 so I'm going to move right along. I just want to
23 reiterate that I do not work for EPA, so I'm not going
24 to feel good or bad about anything you tell me about
25 EPA. I'm here to get your views on what kind of a job
26 they are doing. And as Diane said, they are trying to
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1 redesign their information system, so they are going to
2 take very seriously what you say tonight. This is the
3 only group of information specialists and librarians, so
4 you are representing a lot of people, but basically we
5 want you to speak from your experience and from what you
6 have found. A few ground rules. This group is going to
7 last two hours, and it started at twenty of so I'm going
8 to have you out of here at twenty of nine. I promise
9 it. We're audio taping and video taping, basically so
10 I don't have to take notes, and this is by definition a
11 public meeting, so what you say is on a public record,
12 but you're not going to see this on CNN. I can tell you
13 that. A few guidelines for your participation. The
14 information is going to develop out of the discussion
15 you have with each other. I'm not in this field, so I'm
16 here to ask you questions and you folks are going to be
17 talking to each other — where you agree, where you
18 disagree, the points you want to bring up, and so forth.
19 So the discussion's going to pretty much go across the
20 table. That is my hope. Feel free to get up and walk
21 around. We have refreshments which you may be
22 interested in. If you want to use the restrooms,
23 they're out off the main lobby. It's a right out this
24 door, a left and a left to find the rest rooms. It took
25 me a while to find, so I give you my guidance on that.
26 You don't have to wait to be called on. You can jump
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1 in. However if we get really vigorous, then maybe we
2 will have to take hands. Please tell us both positive
3 and negative ideas because we learn from both of them,
4 both types. We expect that you'll disagree with folks.
5 That's good because that moves the discussion along.
6 Okay, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself to the
7 group. Tell us a little bit about yourself and the
8 organization where you work, and why don't we just start
9 here with Jim.
10 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Jim Barns. I'm a reference
11 librarian for the public library downtown here. I've
12 lived here 18 years and I'm very interested in serving
13 the public and I'm very interested in environmental
14 things. I do other activities on the board of a nature
15 group in Charlottesville, so I'm kind of tuned into that
16 area. I actually once worked at the EPA library at
17 Research Triangle when I was in library school, so I had
18 some contact there for six months.
19 NEW SPEAKER: My name's Rochelle Garwood. I'm
20 an environmental planner with the Thomas Jefferson
21 Planning District Commission. We have done a number of
22 environmental studies of our own, so in some ways we're
23 a major consumer of environmental data. But we also get
24 a fair number of requests for it, mostly I'd say from
25 students and especially graduate students.
26 NEW SPEAKER: My name's Mary Plum and I'm the
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1 branch head at the Crozet branch of the Jefferson-
2 Madison Regional Library, and I've been with the library
3 for 18 years. And we are a repository for the EPA
4 information for the Greenwood Chemical site, and we are
5 geographically close to that so we have in the past had
6 a lot of interest in the information we have there,
7 which has been copied and studied over the years. And
8 so I'm very much interested in EPA and what we're doing
9 here. Thank you.
10 NEW SPEAKER: I'm John Hermsmeier, the Program
11 Director for the Environmental Education Center housed
12 here in Charlottesville, working primarily in the
13 Charlottesville/Albemarle Region. And the first thing
14 I'm not is a librarian, so I'll make that clear, but we
15 do get a variety of calls, just because that's the name
16 of our organization and we're listed in the phone book,
17 that range from people with an air quality question that
18 is not currently something that we have in our
19 programming to a kid needing help with a science fair
20 project to the actual work we're doing ourselves through
21 the designed programming. And so my role tonight may be
22 more on learning myself what's available and discussing
23 need, rather than from the other end.
24 MODERATOR: And what type of organization did
25 you say?
26 NEW SPEAKER: It's a small non-profit
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1 environmental education organization. Jumping ahead to
2 the next group. [Laughter]
3 NEW SPEAKER: My name's Cindi Wolff. I am the
4 manager of reference services and collection development
5 for the Department of the Interior library in
6 Washington, D.C. I am also the coordinator of the
7 Federal Documents Task Force of the Government Documents
8 Round Table of the American Library Association. So I
9 come here in two roles: one is an agency that works a
10 lot with EPA doing joint projects, whether it's
11 environmental impact statements, and also we have
12 requests for publications from our people, as well as
13 the public, for EPA information; and also as coordinator
14 of the task force. I'm sort of here representing that
15 organization and the interest that government documents
16 librarians have with EPA information as well.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Walter Newsome. I'm a
18 government information librarian at the University of
19 Virginia, and as such I direct probably the Federal
20 government's best kept secret, and that is the Federal
21 Depository Library Program. The University of Virginia
22 library is regional for the State of Virginia. What that
23 means is we agree to get everything published by the
24 Federal government, and we retain it forever. Bottom
25 line. And I've been with this—I've been doing this
26 here at the University for almost thirty years now, and
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1 my interest obviously is in any Federal information, the
2 Environmental Protection Agency being one of the prime
3 interests for this area.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I'm Denise Stephens and I
5 used to work for Walter years ago. I am now coordinator
6 of information and access services for the Science and
7 Engineering Libraries at UVA and I'm here primarily to,
8 in one way reacquaint myself with EPA's information, but
9 also to explore ways to maximize its visibility and use
10 among our researchers in the science community here.
11 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Lindsey Ideson. I'm another
12 Branch Manager from the Jefferson-Madison Regional
13 Library and I'm here to learn. I actually would like to
14 know more about what kind of information EPA has that we
15 can use, because Diane called me the day that I had a
16 question about local air quality and water quality and
17 was having some frustrating moments trying to find any
18 information.
19 MODERATOR: Great. We're going to hear about
20 those.
21 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Krista Farrell I'm also with
22 Jefferson-Madison Regional Library, and I'm in Greene
23 County and I'm the Branch Manger there. I actually—I'm
24 here because Diane called me and asked me to come here.
25 I actually tried to get out of it. [Laughter] I was
26 sure that there's going to be other people from the
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1 library that will be here, but she would have none of
2 it. So that's why I'm here. [Laughter] I really don't
3 in my current position receive a lot of questions, other
4 than science fair project questions relating to—because
5 of the size of our library and the people that we serve,
6 we don't get a lot of in-depth reference questions, and
7 if we do we send them down to Jim. I've been in Greene
8 for three years. Before that I was up in Washington
9 D.C. in Special Libraries with a private corporation, so
10 I have a good idea of the ways you can get information
11 and the variety of ways that are out there. We just
12 don't get them that way in Greene County right now.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. Alright, let's jump into
14 talking about the types of environmental information you
15 need in your work and where you get it. Anyone may
16 start.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I'll start. We use mostly water
18 quality information or water related information. We
19 have a Geographic Information System. GIS data is also
20 a lot of what we give to students. And we get a lot of
21 questions for watershed boundaries, streams and rivers—
22 land covers actually also is something that we have some
23 of and could use a lot better data for. And we get a
24 lot of requests for it. We get a lot of requests for
25 water quality data which we get from DEQ, and we also
26 use the water quality data from DEQ ourselves a lot.
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1 And I have to say one thing about the water quality data
2 from DEQ is it's not for the timid. It's not formatted
3 in a way that I would consider to be terribly
4 accessible. It has a lot of abbreviations that you
5 either have to spend time with someone at DEQ explaining
6 them to you or you just have to know. Well, let's see.
7 We also get some of our CIS information from USGS. We
8 also get water flow information.
9 MODERATOR: I think we need to keep track of
10 some of these you are mentioning here. Okay. You said,
11 started out I think with air quality?
12 NEW SPEAKER: No, we don't do a lot of air
13 quality.
14 MODERATOR: Water quality?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Part of that I think is because
16 there isn't that much air quality data to be had for
17 this area, as far as I know. See now, if you guys know
18 that there's a lot more, then that's something I should
19 know. But as far as I know there isn't that much.
20 MODERATOR: Okay, and you said you went to DEQ.
21 Is that Virginia's agency?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Right. The Department of
23 Environmental Quality.
24 MODERATOR: Okay. And where did you go?
25 NEW SPEAKER: I went to the, it's somebody,
26 Ron Byken, I think his name is. He is with the regional
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1 office that covers our planning district.
2 MODERATOR: Okay.
3 NEW SPEAKER: And what he does is send a Lotus
4 file that needs to be converted into Excel and dealt
5 with.
6 MODERATOR: And this would be for students at
7 what level?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, college mostly, and for
9 ourselves. We've used it for a number of our projects.
10 We've done a number of water quality planning projects,
11 including for the Urbanna basin, for Louisa County and
12 Urbanna County.
13 MODERATOR: Alright. Any other place for water
14 quality that you go to?
15 NEW SPEAKER: We do have some data that was
16 actually developed in conjunction with John that's sort
17 of in-house volunteer collected data. But that's
18 basically it. We either have that or we have DEQ data.
19 MODERATOR: Okay. So you're an organization
20 that also collects data?
21 NEW SPEAKER: Correct. With students, and then
22 for the particular project that Rochelle is talking
23 about — the Rivanna River Basin Project which was EPA
24 funded. We served as the field team coordinator. So it
25 was coordinating volunteers in the collection of
26 biological data, chemical sampling, which was then
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1 preformed by the Rivanna Water and Sewer Authority Labs
2 and then some other plants.
3 MODERATOR: Rivanna. How do we spell that?
4 NEW SPEAKER: R-i-v-a-n-n-a.
5 MODERATOR: That's the Rivanna Project?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Rivanna River Basin Project.
7 Actually a project of the Thomas Jefferson Planning
8 District.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Thomas is the name of one of
10 EPA's water shed areas here.
11 MODERATOR: Okay. Yeah, let's explore water
12 quality a little while we're at it. Maybe this is a
13 good way to get in what you've used. Good things, bad
14 things about it?
15 NEW SPEAKER: The DEQ, do they welcome people
16 asking for publications? I mean, the public library,
17 they send us things. Like paper form—not in disk form.
18 NEW SPEAKER: All I have gotten from them are
19 the spread sheets. I don't know that they—yeah, it's
20 not real accessible. I did see that they had put
21 together a report, I think from the 1997 water quality
22 data, and they had actually put that together in a
23 document. But even there it was a little spotty as to
24 whether or not all of the abbreviations were identified,
25 and they didn't give any sort of a—any standards along
26 with that or any ideas for the layperson, of, you know,
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1 how these relate to water quality.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Where is that office of Ron?
3 NEW SPEAKER: He's over in the Valley I think.
4 It's Harrisonburg, I'm thinking. Yeah.
5 MODERATOR: And how did you find this person,
6 this source of information.
7 NEW SPEAKER: That knowledge was passed on to
8 me from the previous environmental planner.
9 MODERATOR: And does this come by E-mail to
10 you? How do you get the—
11 NEW SPEAKER: I get it by E-mail, yes. Or he
12 will also mail the files, but for me it's just as easy
13 to have him E-mail it to me and then I can work with it
14 in my spread sheet.
15 MODERATOR: Okay.
16 NEW SPEAKER: One of the needs for starting
17 this from the ground up was, in terms of information
18 needs of customers is—what shape is the creek in behind
19 my house? And you're typically not going to have a
20 Federal or state agency with a sample site on someone's
21 creek out back. So one of the things they're looking
22 for is not only data, but techniques to bring their
23 situation into the data pool.
24 NEW SPEAKER: That's the most frequent
25 question, uh, unfilled request that we get, is how to
26 get data on a very specific kind of stream or water
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1 body. The larger streams or the water body, the amount
2 of data available has been just going up, easily
3 available, it's just been going up exponentially. With
4 the EPA's Web site you can now put in zip codes and [you
5 get] quality data for whatever the water shed area is
6 for that you're looking for. And I have used that to
7 some extent. But it doesn't help with the little creek
8 that runs behind my house — it's called Rock Creek —
9 that every university parking lot, I think, around here
10 drains into.
11 MODERATOR: So the need for local information,
12 which your organization, John, is trying to meet in some
13 ways.
14 NEW SPEAKER: That's right.
15 MODERATOR: How about others, have you
16 encountered—? We're still in the water area. Let's
17 pursue that too. We can exhaust that. Anyone else with
18 water experience?
19 NEW SPEAKER: I don't have experience, but I
20 would say in Greene County where people would go would
21 be to the local extension office, the extension agent.
22 He gets any sort of outdoor question. [Laughter]
23 Water, air, soil, anything. And he is hooked in also
24 with Virginia Tech. So I assume that that's where
25 people go in Greene County.
26 MODERATOR: Is that where you might go if you
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1 had a question?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Urn-hm. He's right next door.
3 That's why I know him. And that's where we send kids
4 sometimes with science project questions that we can't
5 help with or we don't know where to start. He helps us
6 then.
7 MODERATOR: Okay.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Just as a general statement on
9 water, oftentimes the need is who is accountable for
10 what situation. That what the person calling needs is
11 a road map on what's EPA in control of versus DEQ versus
12 the planning district versus a small non-profit versus
13 my neighborhood association, the water resources
14 manager, just a walk through. And because all of us
15 with our own turf are struggling to get that done, it's
16 very hard for any entity to fully describe for a person
17 what's available to them resource-wise, whether it be
18 for data or support and who to share a concern with.
19 And so I imagine that everyone at this table gets those
20 kinds of calls too, where it's not only providing the
21 information, but providing information on where to go to
22 get the information is often the bulk of it.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Within water the USGS
24 does a lot of water resource investigations, etcetera,
25 so we get people that will call us for information
26 because they think Interior does it when it's actually
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1 something EPA does.
2 MODERATOR: Would you like to introduce
3 yourself please?
4 NEW SPEAKER: I'm just late that's all.
5 [Laughter] I'm Phil Hearn. I'm from Rockingham Public
6 Library up in Harrisonburg.
7 MODERATOR: Alright. Thank you. We're
8 starting out by talking about needs for data, and we
9 started with water quality because that came up first.
10 And uh, we've got some really good points here that
11 people have put forward. Anybody else want to deal with
12 the water quality issue here. Okay. You mentioned CIS
13 data. Is everyone familiar with this Geographic
14 Information System data? Okay. Somebody just want to
15 give a little bit of an overview of what that deals
16 with?
17 NEW SPEAKER: Geographic Information Systems
18 are basically a way to tie in maps with databases, with
19 data so that you can—I'm sorry. I honestly have never
20 been asked to explain this before so I don't have an
21 explanation ready made, so I'm making it up as I go.
22 NEW SPEAKER: That's good, and other people can
23 jump in.
24 NEW SPEAKER: So that, urn, you can take
25 something like a database of places that water quality
26 has been sampled and tie it in to a map so you can see—
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1 so you have a map of Albemarle County, you would then be
2 able to see which places in Albemarle County had bad
3 water quality and, you know, see if there were any
4 clusters or patterns to that.
5 NEW SPEAKER: This is a Federal agency? Or—?
6 NEW SPEAKER: No. We're a regional—
7 NEW SPEAKER: The CIS?
8 NEW SPEAKER: No. Geographic Information
9 Systems is just the name for this system of tying in
10 together data and maps. And there are certain well-
11 defined software packages that do this.
12 NEW SPEAKER: It's simply a computer
13 application in which you display data geographically or
14 spatially.
15 MODERATOR: Could someone give me an example
16 of, maybe what a student or someone coming to you might
17 want to do that you would need to go to a CIS system?
18 NEW SPEAKER: We've got Muddy Creek pollution
19 up in Page County north of Harrisonburg, and the farmers
20 are all pointing the fingers at various places for the
21 pollution of their water. If you had the map of Page
22 County you could see the water shed. You could also
23 find the points of entry into the creek and eventually
24 down into the Shenandoah. So you'd be able to plot
25 where pollution is coming from.
26 NEW SPEAKER: The jargon word used to be source
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1 point.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Source point pollution, yeah. In
3 the academics CIS is really multi-disciplinary, so even
4 though we're thinking of it in terms of scientific
5 investigations, it really allows people to pull together
6 disparate types of information — demographic, economic
7 — in addition to information about the physical
8 features of the location. So the fact that EPA is
9 allowing people to search by zip code, for example,
10 which is sort of the geographic boundary that they have
11 identified for various types of information, there are
12 lots of other kinds of information that can be defined
13 by zip code boundary. So in addition to something like
14 toxic emissions and TRI sites by zip code, people will
15 also be able to associate that with population and
16 locations of schools and other types of institutions so
17 that broader decisions can be made about—we're going to
18 build a new shopping mall here. Is this a good site to
19 build a rehab center? So what are the environmental
20 implications of building some new service or location?
21 CIS allows people to visually see what all of the types
22 of elements come to play in a location. In my
23 experience, having worked fairly heavily in CIS but also
24 now in the sciences, it all—it really all converges,
25 for folks in business as well as people who are doing
26 hard, ecological research as well.
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1 MODERATOR: Okay. When somebody has, say, a
2 siting question, would they come to you? Where would
3 you go with that?
4 NEW SPEAKER: I don't do that anymore. Until
5 recently a lot of this information, in a stable digital
6 form—in a portable form—say like ddf files or dbase
7 files. Something that can be imported easily into a lot
8 of CIS packages. Those standards are not out there yet,
9 and so we had to do was spend a lot of time identifying
10 agencies, such as the Mineral Resources Division, DEQ,
11 and a couple years ago when EPA data site first came up,
12 we were able to find information there. Finding the
13 information in digital format was the biggest challenge.
14 Once we identified that the studies were being done and
15 data was gathered, it was finding it in a format that we
16 could use that would allow it to be plugged into a CIS
17 or some other sort of analytical tool. And so I used to
18 spend a lot of my time trying to find out what agency in
19 the area had some of this data because, unfortunately,
20 a lot of the depository information that we received
21 through GPO wasn't that digital data. Now that began to
22 become apparent with some of the products that came out
23 a couple of years ago, but there's still a lot of very
24 hard, raw scientific data sets that we have a hard time
25 locating. It's one thing to say—we'd like to know what
26 the condition of a stream is. It's another thing to
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1 say—I would like to see the data set that includes the
2 initial measurements of a particular toxin or effluent.
3 And that is the stuff that's hard to find.
4 MODERATOR: Okay. You mentioned that you had
5 to run down the agencies. How did you do that?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Well, actually, we did a lot of
7 informal consortia here in the region with some of the
8 state agencies: the regional state Department of
9 Transportation, VDOT; the Division of Mineral Resources
10 here in Charlottesville; and Virginia Tech and its
11 Department of Geography. We all have sort of informal
12 arrangements, and even faculty here at the University of
13 Virginia in the environmental sciences. Do you know
14 somebody who has this? I mean, that's how we were
15 finding a lot of data.
16 NEW SPEAKER: That's one of the worst problems
17 I think we face even yet. The impact of the Internet
18 and the World Wide Web is beginning to change that
19 somewhat. At one time, not only true for data in
20 electronic format but for publications, trying to find
21 out who on earth issued or may have issued a particular
22 set of data — we're talking water quality, air quality,
23 whatever — was just a nightmare. And often what you
24 had to do is to find somebody in the field, either a
25 footnote or some reference, and based on the fact that
26 the publication site may have been Cincinnati, take a
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1 guess that it's the regional EPA laboratory that's in
2 Cincinnati or if it's at Research Triangle Park. If you
3 didn't get that kind of citation it was virtually
4 impossible until you started calling people and asking
5 them—do you have any idea which EPA laboratory may have
6 been involved in this? That's still a problem today
7 with historical publications that go back. We
8 frequently get requests for manuals that are prepared at
9 the various EPA laboratories, and those are still
10 extremely hard to get a handle on.
11 MODERATOR: Okay. So in this region people
12 consulted each other, and do you still have a network
13 that you can draw on?
14 NEW SPEAKER: I think there's still here in
15 central Virginia, there are central Virginia sort of CIS
16 users. We have the Dennis—
17 NEW SPEAKER: Dennis [Rosehas].
18 NEW SPEAKER: Dennis [Rosehas], yeah.
19 NEW SPEAKER: We eat lunch every couple of
20 months or so.
21 NEW SPEAKER: And since I'm kind of in an area,
22 I'm not really sure what they are doing now, but it was
23 a way to kind of identify potential contacts.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, we're still eating lunch
25 together.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there's also on the
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1 national level in terms of different organizations like
2 MAGERT, the Map and Geography Round Table. SLA has a
3 map and geography division, so within the associations,
4 one time when we get together, we sort of compare notes
5 into what. And the listservers have changed that in
6 terms of being able to throw out a listserve—has anyone
7 ever found where this is put out? And then people that,
8 who are on the listserver will answer. And I know the
9 EPA now has developed a number listserves for
10 environmental information. And that didn't exist
11 before. [Laughter]
12 NEW SPEAKER: I think that's an enormous
13 improvement. I think the other way we still do it to
14 some extent, getting it off the World Wide Web, is
15 starting to have some impact on this.
16 NEW SPEAKER: It's to call colleagues in the
17 area. You know, you call up the major academic
18 institution in the state where something may have been
19 produced or you think there's a good chance something
20 may have been produced and say—hey, do you know anybody
21 around your area who has this or might have access to
22 it? So it's a good old underground network again. Just
23 like locally, we tend to extend it nationally as well.
24 MODERATOR: Okay. So those names of people,
25 for instance like your colleague passed on to you, can
26 be very important. And at one time maybe it was a
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1 Rolodex and now has it expanded to certain listserves,
2 certain E-mail, Internet sites?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Well, that was one of the first
4 things that EPA did when they did Access EPA in 1994.
5 That manual was the first time that they accumulated and
6 told you if you looked under Superfund, who within the
7 Agency did Superfund. And now that's on the Web, which
8 is really cool, but when it first came out in paper—
9 what "93, "94—it was like—oh, thank God. And at that
10 time I was an EPA librarian at the Robert S. [Kern]
11 Environmental Research Library in Ada Oklahoma. That
12 was how we worked as an EPA library. We didn't know
13 within the Agency itself who did what.
14 NEW SPEAKER: That Access EPA was the single
15 greatest tool, at that time, that EPA ever put out for
16 those of us who were trying to get information to other
17 folks. It just was such a Godsend in terms of being
18 able at last to get a handle on it. I do know that EPA
19 had a long history of being unable to account even for
20 their own materials in the national setting. In fact,
21 I had someone who worked at EPA who admitted that at one
22 of the national meetings I attended some years ago—that
23 he really had no idea what—he was an information
24 officer for EPA—and he really had no idea what EPA
25 published because they had no central clearinghouse for
26 all EPA publications. That was pretty apparent for
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23
1 those of us who were trying to use the information
2 already. Again though, Access EPA has changed that.
3 The World Wide Web is changing it even more. So there—
4 progress is being made there, and access to data is much
5 easier now than it was and it still has a ways to go.
6 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me ask you about when
7 you decide to go Federal, state, local? Or is that even
8 a factor when you are trying to find information?
9 NEW SPEAKER: It is a factor if you're trying
10 to find information that defines a small geographic area
11 in great detail. In that case we find that, at least I
12 have found, that it's more effective to work with the
13 state agency with that responsibility. A case in point
14 — with the hydrologic units. We found out, you know,
15 when I was working in documents, that we'd begin to get
16 the hydrologic unit maps and those were very exciting.
17 And that wasn't from EPA. But what we were interested
18 in was getting a hold of the data that was used to
19 derive those maps, because that data could be used with
20 other EPA data about pesticides and toxic emissions to
21 get a larger view of this hydrologic unit area, which is
22 a geographic area. In this case it was a county
23 boundary. Even though a Federal agency published it and
24 disseminated those maps in the Depository Library
25 Program, the digital data was retained by the state
26 agency that they partnered with in developing the
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24
1 product. So we had, in those cases when the work is
2 being done by joint, either between Federal and state
3 levels, we find that it almost—invariably for me, going
4 to the state agency was more effective because, in a lot
5 of cases, they either paid at least half or most of the
6 cost of the research and retained the data and treat it
7 as part of their information — their official state
8 information. And for water we're finding that that's a
9 lot—fairly effective, particularly when studying
10 pesticides. So it really depends on what you need. If
11 you need great detail in terms of geography, if there is
12 a state agency involved, I've had a lot of luck that
13 way.
14 MODERATOR: Okay.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, I would agree with it—that
16 I find that really the state level works best. The
17 local governments aren't responsible for gathering the
18 data and don't tend to have the data, and when I've
19. tried looking on a Federal level, I've mostly found that
20 the data came in larger geographic areas than I was
21 interested in. And that since, as she said, since a lot
22 of it, the data that was developed on a smaller
23 geographic level was developed at least in partnership
24 with the state, you know, if not simply by the state,
25 then it seemed to work best to go to the state.
26 [Laughter]
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I'm just wondering, I have the
2 EPA home page and one of the things is "search1, and I
3 wonder can you actually search for information, or you
4 just find listings of publications, or—I've never used
5 this. I don't know. I saw this the first time today,
6 but—
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I've found the EPA
8 publications are great, and I, you know, that's probably
9 what I use the EPA site for more than anything.
10 NEW SPEAKER: So you put in a topic, like a
11 subject for search and—
12 NEW SPEAKER: That's what I would do.
13 NEW SPEAKER: One of the problems with that
14 search engine, though, is it only goes to a very
15 superficial level.
16 NEW SPEAKER: I think I've actually searched
17 the EPA publications section when I search for
18 publications.
19 NEW SPEAKER: What I mean by that, if you put
20 in the word Rivanna you'll get zero hits. I tried this
21 morning. But if you go and use their zip code, which is
22 much more specific, you got that—you know. The other
23 thing, the other problem with it is not only does it
24 seem to search fairly superficially, but you have to go
25 back to the home page to get to it. I'm a firm
26 believer, if you're going to have a search engine it
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26
1 needs to be noted pretty frequently throughout, and it's
2 not here, at least so far as I can tell. You have to
3 go, if you get off down a trail, you have to go back
4 looking for the search engine. I think, um, the
5 question which was being addressed earlier about
6 national and state data—I think a lot depends on the
7 requestor too. Those in the academic community tend to
8 be interested in the national picture, I think overall,
9 in terms of teaching assignments and that sort of thing-
10 -by the academic community, I'm talking about those who
11 are doing the teaching and that sort of thing—and
12 looking for models. And then when you get down to the
13 individual student level, they're often trying to put
14 into practice something that they are supposed to be
15 doing in class, and they are looking for models to do a
16 look at local level. And I think that the other thing
17 that tends to be even more interested in state and
18 especially local data are individual citizens. This
19 came up earlier, where you have people wanting to know,
20 you know—is it safe to let my cat or dog drink from
21 Rock Creek? Or—my cat or dog drank from it. Are they
22 going to get sick? That kind of question, which—that's
23 very superficial, but it's the kind of question I tend
24 to see from the general public more than the real hard
25 data and big picture. That tends to be the academic
26 community that wants that.
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1 MODERATOR: And where would you start looking
2 for the answer about the dog or cat's health?
3 NEW SPEAKER: That's a tough one. I don't
4 know. We try to call around and, you know, figure out
5 exactly what kind of data is available. The first
6 suggestion I usually have for a question like that is to
7 try to call somebody in the Environmental Sciences
8 Department at the University of Virginia and find out if
9 any of his or her students are doing any activity in
10 this area or if they've picked up any data from them,
11 because that's pretty specific.
12 NEW SPEAKER: There's actually two separate
13 questions in there, neither one of them are easy to get
14 a handle on. One of them is—what's the water quality
15 in Rock Creek? and the other is—what's the level that's
16 toxic to a dog?
17 NEW SPEAKER: And what agency—what would be
18 the best agency to contact? Because in some cases,
19 well, there are multi-agencies. There's EPA and then
20 there's USGS. And then more specifically, well, what
21 about Fish and Wildlife? And it, there, you know, you
22 kind of get into this periphery where you're thinking
23 that EPA's the appropriate agency and you may find out
24 that they are, they may carry the banner in terms of
25 citations for a publication, but you'll find that the
26 real research or the source data was derived by another
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1 agency. And one problem with some of these search
2 engines, unless you can really get into the abstract of
3 the report and find out a whole lot about it, you may
4 never uncover that information. So you limit your
5 search to what—to EPA, thinking that, well it flagged
6 EPA when I searched this document, not realizing that if
7 I want to actually see the source data I'm going to have
8 to go another agency. And that's where some of these
9 search engines on the Web are really limiting, because
10 they stop at the title as far as their database is
11 concerned, when in fact it would be much more useful to
12 be able to search the abstract of the report to find out
13 a lot about what its scope was and who the key players
14 were in compiling the information.
15 NEW SPEAKER: There is a different perspective
16 here too. A lot of you are looking at this in academic
17 research. You want levels of contaminants and that type
18 of thing. People coming into the public library want a
19 conclusion. They want to know is it harmful. They want
20 the bottom line. And I think we all rely on local
21 contacts, local agencies, county or city agencies —
22 calling them, finding out, basically finding a root for
23 that person who's asking the question to go to get to
24 the answer. That person's not going to care if there's
25 point five million parts of PCBs in, you know, a gallon
26 of water in the creek. They want to know how dangerous
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1 in subjective terms.
2 NEW SPEAKER: And that's not information you're
3 responsible for.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yes, exactly.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Who's responsible? Who do I call
6 to stop this?
7 NEW SPEAKER: Right. And it's that type of
8 information that we have to deal with. It's not the
9 search engines and key word searches. We have to find
10 an agency that this person will trust, who can give them
11 the right answer. So there's a bit of a different
12 perspective from our point of view as a public library.
13 MODERATOR: Do you have any good examples of a
14 contact or an office that can answer those questions for
15 you? I want to gather a few places.
16 NEW SPEAKER: It depends on the quality of the
17 people sitting in the planning office down at the
18 Rockingham County Administrative Offices.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Right. There might be somebody
20 right there in the county that can test the water and
21 tell you, like the extension agent or the county soil
22 erosion person or whoever does that for the county.
23 NEW SPEAKER: And also how helpful they are. I
24 mean, it varies from locality to locality. It really
25 does.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. Is there a particular title
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1 that you would try within a locality?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Just from my experience I'd go
3 with a local, the person on staff. Like I was up in
4 Hershey, Pennsylvania for ten years and we had Jeff
5 [Kaiser] who was a rather—I won't go into his choice of
6 language—but he was in charge of development in the
7 township. He wasn't the zoning officer, but he made
8 sure developers followed the township regulations. And
9 Jeff knew everything. He'd been there for fifteen,
10 twenty years. He knew everything about the township.
11 He knew who to contact and who the good contractors
12 were, who the bad contractors were, who was not going to
13 put up, you know, the fence to control the erosion that
14 goes into the creek and that type of thing. So it comes
15 down to, you know, I guess personal contacts in most
16 cases. But as for a title, I'm not sure about Virginia.
17 I've only been here about five months so I couldn't tell
18 you.
19 NEW SPEAKER: This discussion does lead towards
20 a definition of what information is. Maybe that's
21 getting outside the scope of what your needs are this
22 evening, but it is true that what's typically needed is
23 analysis of information to get a result, as the folks
24 have been saying. And, in fact, it was interesting —
25 our organization received a mini grant from EPA for our
26 screwed up habitat project, and in their guidelines they
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1 said don't even go down the road of information.
2 Environmental education is not the provision of
3 information. And so, where one goes from there, whether
4 that's your purposes tonight I'm not sure of, but it's
5 definitely an issue where you hit a ceiling. And you
6 can get all the information in the world. He said that
7 concentration of pollutant "X1, or even the toxic level
8 and the dog. But how are you going to pull that
9 together? That's the help that people need. So how to
10 make a huge amount of information meaningful to the
11 general public will not be solved by excellent provision
12 of information.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. It will be solved by?
14 MEW SPEAKER: Helping the public analyze the
15 information and get questions answered, and getting in
16 to all the things. Who's accountable for what? What
17 are the regulations here? What steps can I take? Do I-
18 -is it Federal Court? Is it a voluntary action? Is,
19 uh, what do I do, how do I proceed? Who do I talk to
20 about that? And that's a lot more work. So it's a
21 difficult challenge, and I'm certainly not suggesting
22 EPA's going to handle all that, but just as a partner in
23 the Federal, state, local, local knowledgeable person
24 about how the world works in your township. How to make
25 that connection is something that everyone needs to work
26 on.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I think, though, another tact,
2 take on what you just said is that, when you talk about
3 information, it just depends on who your clientele is,
4 who the user of the stuff is. Because information in
5 another perspective is what is derived after you've
6 analyzed the data. And so--
7 NEW SPEAKER: It's the definition of it, yeah.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Right. And so the issue might be
9 that we're looking at a diverse group of users. And so
10 when we say the general public, we want, I think we need
11 to be careful to recognize the general public includes,
12 not just who we stereotypically think of as John Q.
13 Public, but also, you know, researchers and students and
14 academicians and others who have, who need information
15 at various levels of analysis. And some folks just need
16 the raw data and they do their own analysis. Some
17 people need to have, as this gentleman just mentioned,
18 an end product that answers a question. But all of
19 these users, you know, are still in some way needing
20 access to the same original material, whether it's
21 before analysis or after. They still need access to the
22 data.
23 NEW SPEAKER: I think one of the things that
24 people tend to look for, depending on the level of their
25 expertise—for example, some of the data that's on the
26 EPA Web page that you can get to is not only—the
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1 sophisticated user at the academic level is going to
2 want the raw data so they can draw their own
3 conclusions, but for the average user in the community
4 the data is meaningless. It's got to say, the data
5 shows that the trend is—, or some other conclusion
6 needs to be drawn.
7 MODERATOR: Thank you.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Now I think, I think the interest
9 is in, for many users, particularly at the community
10 level, is not in the data itself. They could care less
11 about the raw numbers. Although, as I say, I don't want
12 to discourage EPA from putting those out there because
13 we have a very large academic community that makes use
14 of that information, or that data rather. But I think
15 for many of our users, if not the majority of users at
16 the community level, they want some sort of a conclusion
17 drawn from the data or at least a statement that some
18 trend is shown here.
19 NEW SPEAKER: I didn't mean to give the
20 impression that data, you know, is not important. It is
21 because if that person finds out that the creek has so
22 much, has such a level of toxic pollutants and does want
23 to take actions, they're going to need that data to back
24 up their legal or other action, you know, to make a
25 change.
26 [ TAPE FLIP ]
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34
1 MODERATOR: —the kind of conclusion that you
2 were talking about John, who's responsible and the trend
3 that Walter was talking about?
4 NEW SPEAKER: That's such a need. I guess I
5 plead ignorance. No. And in answering I would say
6 that's precisely why groups like the Planning District
7 conducted the Rivanna River Basin Project was to try to
8 focus on the particular water shed and then engage the
9 Federal, state, local, non-profit, volunteer citizen
10 sectors in getting that together. In other words, it
11 had be built. Now had it been there, then someone just
12 didn't find it on the Web or something, but I don't
13 think that was the case. It had to be created.
14 NEW SPEAKER: And what frequently ends up being
15 my job, actually, is to take all of that raw data and to
16 pull it into some sort of a report that people who don't
17 understand how to read a DEQ spread sheet can make some
18 sense of.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Well, somewhat EPA does do that.
20 For example, when they do the automobile ratings of the
21 gas mileage, that's a final product. The person doesn't
22 have to, you know, understand how—with unleaded or
23 leaded fuel or whatever. That's a product, and maybe
24 that one way for local information that EPA can get it
25 is maybe there's an FAQ, Frequently Asked Questions, for
26 when people look at water quality data and it's got the
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1 PBC rating, then you have a little, you know, what is
2 bad PBC? This percentage to this is good, this
3 percentage is bad. I mean, so that may be a definition.
4 I don't know. On the Web page, when I was playing with
5 it I pulled up, by zip code, my area. It had, you know,
6 the high school and it had this data and that data, and
7 I'm looking at it going—is that good or bad?
8 [Laughter] I don't know, but there was nothing there on
9 that Web page that I saw that I could click on to
10 explain what PCB was or what percentage was bad or good.
11 So that would be one way to get it digested to that
12 level. The layman's level I guess would be the level.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. So you would add some
14 information to what you've found.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, sort of a legend in terms
16 of, you know, like I said, a frequently asked question.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I think the most frequent failing
18 of Federal agencies these days in providing information
19 is not providing a glossary or set of definitions of
20 what they're talking about. Use of jargon language with
21 no way of, for an average person to comprehend what they
22 are talking about.
23 MODERATOR: What do you do when you run into
24 jargon?
25 NEW SPEAKER: Try to find some way of dealing
26 with it in terms of—of course for me, you know I
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36
1 reached the point where long experience tells me, you
2 know, sometimes what they're talking about. If it's a
3 jargon word in the scientific field, though, I usually
4 don't have a recourse since I don't have a scientific
5 background, but try to contact somebody who may know
6 what's talked about here.
7 NEW SPEAKER: And that's working within a
8 Federal agency—they're, we're migrating so much
9 information on the Net. Electronic, that's the mandate.
10 Go, everything, make it available to the user. And it
11 comes without the bells and whistles. And I think what
12 EPA is trying to do with this meeting is to ask what
13 kind of bells and whistles we need to add to this
14 information. Because the idea, the agency develops the
15 data for their purposes, and that's what happened with
16 CIS. When they were the Tiger Files came out, which is
17 the starting of CIS, it came out on a CD ROM with all
18 the data, but there was no software because the agency
19 didn't need it. They had their own software. It's
20 evolving at this point, the information and how to
21 access it, but—
22 NEW SPEAKER: I think that's an important
23 point, because I think one of the things EPA and other
24 agencies, not just EPA, can do to benefit consumers of
25 information is to sort of give people a context for, you
26 know—why do we develop certain types of information
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37
1 here? What people out here in the diaspora don't
2 necessarily understand is that these agencies are
3 functioning to support policy making, decision making,
4 and they are answering questions that need to be asked
5 in order for people in government to do what they do.
6 So they don't necessarily say—well, gee the public
7 might be interested in this information, so let's go out
8 and do a study on it. It's nice if there is an interest
9 in the consequence of the study, but that is not their
10 objective when they do that. They don't necessarily
11 have to say—we don't really care what you want, but if
12 you want it you can have it. But I think they, it would
13 be, I think it really helps people to understand why EPA
14 does certain types of reports and why Fish and Wildlife
15 does others. And it helps people to know which agency
16 to go to. I mean, that seems to be the most difficult
17 challenge for a lot of folks is assuming that USGS does
18 everything that has to do with the land. Wrong. But
19 that agency, they're most recognized. They make all the
20 maps. And it is, it's a very difficult challenge, and
21 I think all the agencies, but particularly the EPA,
22 because people think environmental protection. Some
23 people are thinking ecology, some people are thinking
24 activism, and some people are thinking education. There
25 are a lots of things that people are thinking, but what
26 is EPA's mission here? And what is it supposed to be
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38
1 doing?
2 NEW SPEAKER: I have a—this is a very nitty-
3 gritty question. I just learned of this today too. On
4 their Web page they have a feature at EPA, "Send a
5 Question to EPA. ' And you can send them a question. And
6 I wonder how effective that is. I mean, I think at the
7 public library we're not going to get all these EPA
8 publications, of course, and this will be the way to do
9 it, I think. And I wonder how, do they answer? I mean
10 what's, do any of you know—
11 NEW SPEAKER: I have called the EPA library and
12 spoken with people there, but I have not used the Web.
13 NEW SPEAKER: They say here, "We've answered
14 thousands of questions,' and—
15 NEW SPEAKER: You should try it.
16 NEYJ SPEAKER: I'TO going to try it. Tomorrow.
17 I'm going to. Because I think this is—the person who
18 looked this up on our staff said it was kind of hard to
19 get to that. It was kind of buried in there, but it's
20 "Send a Question to EPA.' It's just your request. It's
21 pretty straight forward and—
22 NEW SPEAKER: Well maybe that plays on what you
23 were saying earlier, that the Web page maybe needs to be
24 reengineered a little bit so that maybe that's on the
25 first or second page you see. Maybe it should be
26 something like some of the search engines we see on the
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39
1 Net, where you have a chance to do a new search, top and
2 bottom of the page every time. So you can either refine
3 or change your search somehow.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Actually, that EPA page has
5 improved a lot. [Agreement]
6 NEW SPEAKER: Oh yeah.
7 NEW SPEAKER: It used to take forever to load
8 because they had so many graphics and all that. Now
9 it's really fast compared to where it used to be. It's
10 a lot more user friendly in terms of—
11 NEW SPEAKER: And please, when you do your
12 report to EPA, make sure you make that clear. That even
13 though we're saying that there are some things that
14 could be improved, that the Web page is just an enormous
15 improvement over what it was. [Agreement] And it looks
16 much better now. It's easier too. It's much easier to
17 navigate than it was.
18 MODERATOR: Okay. I need to get into a little
19 more detail about the Web page, but first I want to
20 pursue something you just mentioned, Walter, and that is
21 you called an EPA library. Do you remember which one it
22 was?
23 NEW SPEAKER: The one in D.C.
24 MODERATOR: D.C. Okay. Anyone have experience
25 with EPA libraries?
26 NEW SPEAKER: I have talked to some folks down
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40
1 in Research Triangle Park a couple of times over the
2 years too. Again, I just called down there and got
3 switched around until I found somebody who seemed to
4 know what I was talking about. But that hasn't been
5 recent. They've been doing a much better job of getting
6 the information that they're producing out, and data
7 that they're producing out as well.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Why are you asking that question?
9 MODERATOR: I'm interested in the fact that
10 there is a national EPA, there's a regional EPA, there's
11 state agencies, there are regional agencies, all which
12 deal with certain kinds of information. This actual
13 discussion group comes out of the Philadelphia Region
14 Three, which has its own library and information center,
15 and I'm wondering if any of you have had experience with
16 that particular one or knew that it existed?
17 NEW SPEAKER: I knew it existed, and I've
18 called them before for Philly stuff because it's again
19 one of those fugitive documents that you know came out
20 of that region and you, I don't know, if you do it long
21 enough—we've been—some of us in government documents
22 for so long that your first thought is just that you
23 start on that regional level at the library. You don't
24 bother to call the public information office. You call
25 the library. And it varies from library to library.
26 Like I said, when I was in Ada Oklahoma, everyone in the
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41
1 State of Oklahoma called that lab when they had an EPA
2 question, even if it had nothing to do with ground water
3 or surface remediation. But when I was in Chicago, when
4 I would call the regional library, I think it's Region
5 Five, I didn't get—as a librarian I felt as though they
6 didn't give me quite the response or help that I wanted.
7 So, you know, it varies. It depends on which library
8 you call and who's manning the phone or whatever. But
9 I think in most cases the regional libraries that I've
10 contacted have been very supportive, at least knowing a
11 name within the agency, not necessarily in the library.
12 I suspect that the people tracing data like that
13 probably have that experience too.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah well, I'm sure, tracing data
15 though, one of the things that you get, you can get
16 desperate because with some agencies you just need to go
17 into the Federal Yellowbook, look at the organization
18 chart, and, if I'm doing CIS, who does cartography,
19 who's in the cartography division. I mean you're really
20 getting specific. You want to actually talk to the
21 people who actually work with doing, with making the
22 maps because they dealt with the data. Can you answer
23 some questions about this, because this doesn't have a
24 data dictionary? Which sort of defines all the
25 components of the data in the database. Can you answer
26 this for me? What does this mean? Does this include
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1 this information? Because I have to admit, we haven't
2 had to do that a lot with EPA because EPA is really
3 still not yet in its public interface, like from its Web
4 site, and they're still not disseminating an awful lot
5 of spatial data. I mean, not through its public
6 interface on it's Web site. But with a lot of agencies,
7 and including EPA, I've called the cartographer. Who's
8 the cartographic division? Who should I call there?
9 Because then you talk to somebody who actually deals
10 with that data. Because there's nothing in their
11 depository information. There's nothing in the readily
12 available tools sometimes that explains it.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Is EPA moving in the direction of
14 taking their information and disseminating it through
15 the states rather than through your own libraries or
16 other channels? I mean, is this part of a down-sizing
17 idea perhaps?
18 MODERATOR: I don't know what's in the plans.
19 NEW SPEAKER: I'm just being suspicious here,
20 because—
21 MODERATOR: Would that be a problem?
22 NEW SPEAKER: I think it would, yes, because
23 you're going to lose a layer of personnel who actually
24 know what the heck they're doing.
25 MODERATOR: Which layer are we talking about?
26 NEW SPEAKER: The Federal layer. I mean your
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1 library people, and also some of the technicians who,
2 you know, who know the data in and out, inside and out.
3 MODERATOR: No. I think the objective tonight
4 is like—what's been helpful, what's needed?
5 NEW SPEAKER: I'm just speculating on—I know
6 that your objective is to find that out, but what,
7 what's your data going to be used for? [Laughter]
8 NEW SPEAKER: Well, an example of dissemination
9 of information at EPA is that, of course they put a lot
10 of their stuff for the Federal Depository Library
11 Program, but there was a time period in the late "80s
12 that EPA publications dropped out. They weren't sending
13 anything at all, and I know that in the lab that I was
14 at, that the public information, the guy, if you call
15 the Ada lab and asked for a publication, they would send
16 you a free copy. They'd send you twenty free copies.
17 They didn't see why they should be distributed by
18 someone else, in terms of--why should GPO get 1,300
19 copies of this report? If someone needs it they can
20 call us. And that's something that EPA, in terms of
21 distribution, is to making sure that information is
22 going through the Federal Depository Library Program.
23 And as it converts to electronic only—I know right now
24 the GILS information for EPA is on GPO Access, which is
25 the Government Information Locator Service. But
26 whenever publications are coming up electronic only, is
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1 someone within EPA notifying GPO? Because they're the
2 ones that are cataloguing that so when you look on their
3 monthly catalogue, you will be able to search by subject
4 and have a link to that publication on their Web site.
5 So that's something to make sure, in terms of making the
6 information more accessible, besides the Web page, is
7 also notifying an appropriate agency. And in this case
8 the Government Printing Office is one, is the main
9 contact for public and academic libraries for
10 information. That's how we get our EPA stuff, because
11 we're a Federal Depository and we don't call EPA or
12 Interior. They're the other side.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I would like to reinforce what
14 Cindi is talking about. There's one time in the late
15 ~80s— I hope I didn't do it audibly—but there was a
16 time when someone even mentioned EPA publication, I
17 groaned. Because I knew there was going to be a problem
18 in finding where it had been issued, where it was
19 available, and how to get the person who needed it in
20 touch with someone who could actually find either the
21 publication or the data they were looking for, and this
22 was despite the fact we were getting an ocean of
23 microfiche at the time. Literally. It was one of those
24 situations in which EPA was one of the most, and I
25 assume still is to some extent, the most prolific
26 publishers of government information, and yet they were
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1 one of the hardest agencies to find publications from
2 and get a handle on what they were actually doing with
3 all these things they were producing.
4 MODERATOR: What changed?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Well, electronically. A lot of
6 the electronic mostly. There's still a problem, I mean—
7 NEW SPEAKER: And some of it was too—I know
8 there was some liaison work that was done by, again, the
9 ALA in terms of getting a contact within EPA and saying-
10 -hey remember the Federal Depository Library Program?
11 Send this to GPO. So there was a gap between, I think
12 probably "88 to "90, there would be nothing, and then
13 suddenly they started reappearing in the Depository
14 Program. Another avenue that EPA distributes
15 information is through the National Technical
16 information Service. And I know that they're real good
17 about submitting everything through NTIS too, and that's
18 again something to keep up because it never goes out of
19 print. You can call Cincinnati and get a copy of a
20 publication, but once they run out the only way you can
21 get it is not from GPO. It's going to be through NTIS.
22 So that's again something that EPA's doing well in terms
23 of providing access, current as well as archival, to
24 their publications.
25 MODERATOR: Alright. Let me move on to ask you
26 how you and the users that you're working with can judge
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1 the reliability or balance in the information that
2 you're getting. I've heard a little bit about that. In
3 other words, how accurate does the information have to
4 be and how are people going to judge it? I wonder if
5 maybe somebody who hasn't talked wants to give us the
6 benefit of that.
7 NEW SPEAKER: If nobody else is going to say
8 anything—
9 MODERATOR: Go ahead.
10 NEW SPEAKER: I think it depends on the user.
11 If it's somebody in academics, they have their own ways
12 of testing the reliability of the data often. But I
13 think if it's down at the community level, where you
14 just get somebody that's interested in something, I
15 think EPA lends a certain credence to it. That is—this
16 came from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
17 It's got to be accurate. So again, I think it depends
18 on how they perceive, you know, the production of the
19 data. I think the only time that I really have faced
20 questions about reliability of data, it's simply
21 somebody wants the data who is doing their own project,
22 again at the academic level. And they're trying to
23 reproduce the results, and they want the data, not so
24 much to verify its reliability, although I guess that's
25 probably one of the targets, but they're just interested
26 in how the data was arrived at and how they can verify
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1 whether or not the conditions still exist.
2 NEW SPEAKER: It goes back somewhat to, if you
3 can provide the data of so many parts per million of a
4 pollutant, be it air, water, or whatever, but then
5 provide something on the screen or in the publication
6 that gives the person who's looking at that an idea of
7 what the effects of that level of pollution are, then
8 that would give them a good feeling of the reliability.
9 You know, of what, of their conclusions themselves.
10 They can draw their own conclusions.
11 MODERATOR: Okay. Someone earlier said, "a
12 context perspective.1 Am I hearing correctly that
13 although researchers have a certain need to be able to
14 replicate possibly somebody else's work and do it the
15 same way, so they need a certain depth of explanation,
16 maybe a high school student or someone in the community
17 that's looking for information needs a certain
18 understanding of what the terms mean or what the
19 implications are? Am I being fair here? [Agreement]
20 NEW SPEAKER: I think so.
21 NEW SPEAKER: I think so. EPA did—didn't they
22 at one time publish a thesaurus? Is that EPA who did
23 that? [Agreement]
24 NEW SPEAKER: I think they did one, and that
25 was really helpful for people who were not working in
26 the field to understand the terms. It was a monster.
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1 It was a very large document. But they did make an
2 attempt to provide standard definitions for the terms
3 that they used. And one of the possibilities is that if
4 you're going to provide a public Web site and access to
5 documents then it might also be useful to include on
6 that Web site a glossary of terms. It may not even be
7 as detailed as that particular glossary was, but in
8 looking at your different user types, clearly someone
9 who needs more of a post-analysis set of facts is going
10 to benefit more from a glossary than somebody who needs
11 to know what the methodology was and what the raw data
12 was so they can go back and replicate the study.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. Does anyone know whether
14 that thesaurus is on the Internet at the moment?
15 NEW SPEAKER: I've not picked up on it.
16 NEW SPEAKER: No. I haven't seen it.
17 NEW SPEAKER: It may be out there, but it's a
18 well kept secret.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
20 NEW SPEAKER: I'm interested by the balance
21 side of your question, since we're talking about
22 information. I'm just intrigued by the concept of
23 information being balanced or unbalanced. Do you mean
24 in terms of when it's crossing the line, perhaps into
25 more of an analysis? Or what were you driving at there?
26 Whether someone would trust EPA1 s environmental
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1 commitment in the data they were either deciding to
2 collect or to pass to the public? Or what does balance
3 mean?
4 MODERATOR: Some people have suggested that
5 there are different perspectives on a given piece of
6 information, and while EPA might have one perspective,
7 an environmental group might have another perspective,
8 and the business group perhaps that's producing the
9 toxic that's being measured might have yet another
10 perspective. How do you feel about that kind of ability
11 to comment on the context?
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, as an information official
13 we usually don't make judgements in terms of the—we
14 give people the sources they have. I don't think it's
15 EPA's role to provide what Sierra Club is saying and
16 what John Q. Business is saying on the data they're
17 providing. I guess I'm not sure if that's what you're
18 asking, in terms of—
19 NEW SPEAKER: If they can't provide a context
20 for it—like EPA might say, and I don't use these
21 numbers very much, but EPA may say something is such and
22 such. They may not say well Sierra Club feels this is
23 too much or too little. But maybe they had to provide
24 a context, again with the thesaurus also, if they're
25 going to say something is a certain thing then they need
26 to give the levels of what's acceptable. What's
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1 considered acceptable by EPA may not be the same thing,
2 and they might at least allude to that if they're not
3 going to say exactly, because we wouldn't have any idea
4 how to tell. We'd be that person that would just trust
5 it. If EPA said this, we'd trust it. But yeah, the
6 business person or the Sierra Club coming from different
7 angles are going to say this isn't—
8 NEW SPEAKER: So I guess I don't really
9 understand what you're asking.
10 MODERATOR: I'm asking how do you feel about,
11 like, an EPA site providing maybe a link to various
12 controversial views on what this level of—
13 NEW SPEAKER: How much criticism are you
14 willing to bear? And not from us but, you know, from
15 the other proponents?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, I think you're now getting
17 to get into the right wing and the left wing and the
18 liberal and conservative issues there. I tend to agree,
19 and I think this is what EPA is trying to do now, and I
20 assume all the Federal agencies are trying to do this in
21 some way. And that is—at least I hope they're trying
22 to do it—and that is fulfill a legal mandate which is
23 a set of law definition now. The Sierra Club or even I
24 personally might argue with what is polluted air and how
25 many parts per million of a particular toxin does the
26 air have to contain before it's polluted. Well, there
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1 are actually any number of ideas there, but the one that
2 the EPA has to deal with, and that's the one that I
3 think we all have to, you know, everybody has to
4 conclude that this is what their job is. And that is,
5 once Congress enacts a law and says, "x parts per
6 million of pollution is polluted air, ' then I think EPA
7 starts getting involved in trying to provide information
8 beyond that, they really do go cross over into what
9 really becomes opinion, and I'm not sure that's EPA's
10 job. I'm not sure I want it to be their job.
11 NEW SPEAKER: No, I was going to say, I'm the
12 Webmaster for the DOI library, and I've had groups
13 contact me saying—well you should put a link to our
14 site. And all that. Within an agency, I'm sure EPA's
15 the same, Interior is being sued by everyone. We've got
16 BIA, we've got BLM, we've got Reclamation. I don't
17 think EPA's lawyers would let them, or want them to put
18 up whatever sites that are pro or con toward them
19 because there's a—I've been in D.C. too long— there's
20 a law suit waiting, in terms of that. I mean, you know,
21 because, you know, our major support is the lawyers
22 within the solicitor's office and the Department of the
23 Interior, and they're researching law suits and stuff
24 like that.
25 NEW SPEAKER: It's not only that. It's an
26 appearance of favoritism.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Exactly. You would have to—
2 NEW SPEAKER: Whether it's intended or not.
3 NEW SPEAKER: People would get suspicious that
4 because this link is there, there's some, like you said,
5 favor or kick back or whatever, you know—
6 NEW SPEAKER: You would have to link to every
7 environmental group out there because there would be one
8 who was going—well why didn't EPA recognize us as an
9 environmental group? You know—they don't have a link
10 to our Web page. I think it would be a nightmare.
11 NEW SPEAKER: A link is one thing, but the
12 mission says, "To protect public health and the
13 environment,' not to report on the state of it.
14 Protection is inherently biased because it's a judgement
15 that something is valued. You don't protect things that
16 you don't consider valuable. So I would say in very
17 mission of the Agency, it's inherently not an objective
18 provider of information. It's a protector of public
19 health and the environment.
20 NEW SPEAKER: But somebody has to define that.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
22 NEW SPEAKER: You know, either Congress or the
23 EPA itself through regulatory, uh, environment. But
24 somebody has to define what the standard is.
25 NEW SPEAKER: But for EPA to say—this is what
26 we consider to be the standard that protects the
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1 environment, and this is therefore our definition of a
2 protected environment, I think is entirely appropriate.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Well, one thing, I mean, when you
4 get into areas—there are areas that are important, such
5 as—for example, I recently found myself trying to
6 research the effects of total suspended solids on
7 habitat quality, and that is not something EPA has a
8 standard on. Nevertheless, it's something, you know,
9 it's a legitimate thing that someone would want to know.
10 There are a lot of good scientific opinions on it.
11 There are a lot of differing scientific opinions on it.
12 They're all over the Web, and trying to find out, trying
13 to reach any sort of conclusion is a really major mining
14 expedition.
15 NEW SPEAKER: But EPA can't be all things to
16 all people. You can't do everything. You follow your
17 mission, which is to provide, I think, the most helpful
18 information and most unbiased or objective information
19 you can. And then it's up to the viewer or the reader
20 to interpret that information or data.
21 NEW SPEAKER: To enforce the legal mandate
22 given to them by Congress and the Executive.
23 NEW SPEAKER: It's a regulatory agency.
24 MODERATOR: Okay. I hear most of you being
25 kind of nervous about opening the can of worms. You
26 like a context, but the context should be pretty
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1 specific about whether this is safe or not safe. And
2 you are concerned about whether going off to other links
3 or other controversies, you know, what that might to do
4 most users — that most users can't handle it. Is that
5 what I'm hearing?
6 NEW SPEAKER: It might further confuse them.
7 NEW SPEAKER: On the other hand you're leaving
8 them out fishing like I was. That's certainly doesn't,
9 you know, lead to enlightenment so quickly either.
10 MODERATOR: Okay. Well it's a controversial
11 area and I think it's clear that it's controversial
12 here. Uh, let me move to about timeliness. What's
13 acceptable? How up-to-date does information have to be?
14 NEW SPEAKER: As quick as I can get it.
15 NEW SPEAKER: I don't even know how to address
16 an issue like that because, you know, they want
17 tomorrow's results today. "They1 being both academics
18 and community users. You know, it's one of those
19 situations where the sooner it can be gotten out the
20 better.
21 NEW SPEAKER: If it's been on the ABC News--.
22 [Laughter]
23 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Because, they are all going to
25 walk in and say—I want to see that report that EPA did.
26 But the other issue besides currency is archiving. And
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1 I don't know what EPA's doing in terms of information
2 they consider dated, where it's going. That's a concern
3 that I have, in terms of, if someone wants to look at
4 that 1995 dataset and we're in 1999, where do you find
5 that?
6 MODERATOR: And right now it's not clear were
7 you would find a particular piece of information?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it depends, within the
9 whole government there's no way. The issue of archiving
10 electronic information. I don't know how EPA as an
11 agency is addressing that issue. So if they put up the
12 current year of the toxic release inventory and then
13 1999 comes up, is "98 still there when they run out of
14 room on the server? Will someone decide—well, let's
15 dump the last five years, no one needs the old stuff
16 anyway. I mean, that's an issue that I have a concern,
17 in terms of access to the old stuff.
18 NEW SPEAKER: And it might be important for the
19 pollution that's happening in such and such a river
20 today. Five years from now, you need to refer to that.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, we like historic data. We
22 like to get all the historic data we can, as well as the
23 current data.
24 NEW SPEAKER: So that's just something, as
25 things are going electronic, more electronic, to be sure
26 that there's some kind of archival thing.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Just don't let it get lost.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
3 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me muddy the water a
4 little bit again. What if you could have some study come
5 out, which is not quite like academics, like to, like
6 totally clean it, you know, take three years to make it
7 as clean as possible. But release it, say six months
8 with some warning, this is not the final dataset. What's
9 the advantages/disadvantages?
10 NEW SPEAKER: Are you talking about preliminary
11 analysis of say, data that's been collected?
12 MODERATOR: Right. Preliminary stage and
13 labeled as such, as opposed to, say, waiting three years
14 when maybe some kids need to stop drinking the water or
15 the dogs or whoever, and it's going to take three years
16 otherwise. Do you have any thoughts about that?
17 NEW SPEAKER: Invariably, whoever you're
18 dealing with, it just depends to a great extent what
19 they're trying to achieve with the data. Academics want
20 it, as I say, tomorrow's data today. In many instances,
21 they'll take the raw data. They've got their own way of
22 dealing with it. I think that the problem that I see
23 most frequently in this area is archival references and
24 the interim data or the preliminary report is easily and
25 commonly available, but you never can tell whether or
26 not they went back and did a final report. Cindi's
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1 agency was notorious for this in environmental impact
2 statements. They used to issue those preliminary
3 environmental impact statements right and left, but you
4 could never find the final (right) environmental impact
5 statement. [Agreement] So I think a lot, you know,
6 follow up. If you're going to put out the interim data
7 or the preliminary data, follow up is a must and
8 absolutely imperative. And some idea about the time
9 frame, because the first question people ask—well this
10 is the preliminary data, what's the final, you know,
11 when is the final due out?
12 MODERATOR: Alright. Did your agency fix that
13 Cindi?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Well, no. Well, you know
15 [laughter], that's another story. That's another group.
16 The preliminary—I don't know, again it's one of those
17 examples is that if the preliminary data is made
18 available—within the EPA when I was in the lab in Ada,
19 it was like some of the scientists had the preliminary
20 reports because they knew the guy working on the
21 project, and they would cite that in the literature.
22 And then people would come to me and say—I want to see
23 a copy of this preliminary report. Well, it was never
24 published. [Laughter] So I think if it's going to be
25 available under the table, it definitely should be
26 available across the board. And if you look at some of
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1 the publications, there's preliminary, draft, final
2 draft. I mean, some people, in terms of analysis, want
3 all the stages, whether they're a history of science
4 person and they're looking at how this project
5 maneuvered politically or sociologically or whatever.
6 There is some interest in those kinds of reports.
7 NEW SPEAKER: There also were those litigations
8 concerned. I would think that there would be an
9 interest in knowing that there were many disparities
10 between a preliminary (right) investigation and a final
11 report.
12 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me move on to the format
13 for the information that you use or that your clients
14 use. How do they want to get it? You mentioned
15 electronic files. You mentioned digital data.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Electronic files.
17 MODERATOR: Electronic.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Paper. [Laughter]
19 MODERATOR: Let me hear about paper versus the
20 Internet. Does everybody have access?
21 NEW SPEAKER: Does everyone have access? Is
22 that what you said?
23 MODERATOR: To the Internet. Tell me your
24 situation.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we maybe don't have as many
26 uses, or maybe we do and they just don't know it's
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1 there. But in our library, we don't really have—we
2 have the Internet for the staff, for me if I disconnect
3 the fax machine. So don't fax me information if I'm
4 going on the Internet. And so it's not available for
5 the public yet. The extension agent next door, he's got
6 a wire into Virginia Tech and he has the Internet. But
7 most of our patrons are not expecting to pull
8 information off the Internet at this point, so—it's
9 like the IRS. They still want the books so they can
10 make copies. Think about how the IRS puts out
11 information. That's the way, unfortunately, that's the
12 way our patrons expect government information to come.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I think the momentum is going
14 toward electronic files even in the public library area.
15 We have four public terminals, one in each of our
16 branches and they're used all the time. And you see
17 that the different types of people who come in and use
18 the Net for various things. And the public is rapidly
19 being educated to access the Net. I'm not going to say
20 that paper editions of major studies aren't unneeded in
21 public libraries or other public agencies, but I think
22 electronic files are becoming more and more important,
23 and if you can make them more and more accessible to
24 laypeople, and, you know, along with researchers, I
25 think that's one route to go.
26 MODERATOR: Tell me about more accessible.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: You mean the electronic files?
2 MODERATOR: You say more accessible. I'm trying
3 to understand what that means.
4 NEW SPEAKER: I guess, within the electronic,
5 within the Net itself, make them more readily available.
6 And I don't know how a search engine works. I am
7 ignorant about what key word indexing is on any, you
8 know, any search engine, what they are extracting. But
9 if you can combine the key words and topics in your
10 reports to somehow come up more often, or as often as
11 possible when somebody's doing a search, you know, make
12 those two things come together. The data that's
13 highlighted in your publications and the search
14 strategies of the typically used search engine on the
15 Net. Can you bring those together somehow? Make them
16 join somewhere along the line? See what I'm saying?
17 MODERATOR: You're saying if there's
18 information out there, you want your user and you to be
19 able to get to it.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Sure.
21 MODERATOR: That's the bottom line.
22 NEW SPEAKER: With the pitiful amount of
23 knowledge I have on using the Net. That's right.
24 MODERATOR: Got it. Okay.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Most of my requests come by
26 phone. So, that's a clue as to how people come to you.
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1 Some are Web hits, but perhaps like you, or more likely
2 at a lower level than my Web skills. And so I think for
3 a while we're going to need a diversity of approaches,
4 and one fear I have about the electronic movement,
5 though I support it, is that it will cut off people who
6 aren't in that world. And that's a way off. And the
7 excitement of moving there, to the extent it draws away
8 being able to reach a warm body on the phone, for
9 example, I think would be a mistake. And it's been
10 something that's just universally objected to is when
11 you call up and it says—push one here if you're calling
12 for this. It's like, I just want to ask someone a
13 question. So that's, if that's maintained, I think that
14 would be very helpful. And also I find it interesting
15 with a bunch of librarians around, when our kids lose a
16 library book or we get it in late, we get something in
17 the mail. We're still not even up to phone on the
18 library system. [Laughter] They're not hand written,
19 but I think there's a lesson there.
20 NEW SPEAKER: I think with reports it's really
21 important to have a paper copy available. Especially if
22 they're any size at all. People want a big thick thing
23 that they can flip through and find out what's
24 important. They do not want to sit there scrolling
25 through it on the screen. On the other hand, for
26 detailed data that's behind the report, people want it
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1 electronic because they're going to take it and they're
2 going to put it in their own spread sheet and they're
3 going to play with it. So that's what we find. We
4 give out, sell an awful lot of paper reports, but that
5 the detailed data that we give out is all electronic.
6 NEW SPEAKER: It's really, and actually, you
7 know, the data that people use to work with CIS or a
8 spread sheet or some of the applications in most cases
9 is not big in terms of the size of the file. Some of
10 them are huge, you know, but most of time it's
11 manageable. But a large, say 300 page, report is
12 gigantic if that's something that you are going to try
13 to produce as a digital file. Particularly if the file
14 is an image file like a PDF file. (Right) And that
15 creates a lot of end-user problems and requirements.
16 They've got to have machines that can handle these kinds
17 of file sizes, and not to mention the issues with moving
18 something that large through most band width limitations
19 on the Internet right now. So, at least in terms of
20 what they disseminate to libraries, I'd say fill the
21 Depository Library Program where paper is still
22 available or seems to be the best way to get it to most
23 people. Those who like to use digital resources prefer
24 it, but what it may also mean is that if they're going
25 to put the reports up in digital format, they've got to
26 be organized in ways that allow people to maybe download
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1 part of the report rather than all 20 chapters. I mean
2 there are lots of logistics that would have to be
3 considered to maximize the ability of people, not only
4 to access it but to use it.
5 NEW SPEAKER: I have to say that my job has
6 shifted tremendously over the years. One of the things
7 I find myself doing now is teaching people to use
8 software as much as anything. And the problem with,
9 although I have reached the stage where invariably when
10 I get called with a question that I happen to know or
11 find very quickly on the Internet, the first question I
12 tend to ask people is—do you have access to the Web?
13 And that's often a big factor because it means they
14 don't have to come into the University of Virginia and
15 find parking or pay exorbitant rates the University
16 charges for its parking and all the adjunct problems
17 that go with that. And they can get access to it, you
18 know, at home or at work or whatever. However, I
19 think, invariably, I lose something when I have to
20 explain to people on the phone about that because you
21 can't teach them to use software. You can't say—if
22 you've got a huge PDF file you don't have to print the
23 whole thing out. You can click on page reference down
24 at the bottom, and will now open a little window and
25 tell you, you know, ask you which page do you want. You
26 know, most people want to use the sidebar to pull down,
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1 which is the worst way of using a PDF file. But in any
2 case, I, for one, know I have to say, as a regional
3 librarian for the Government Printing Office of the
4 Federal Depository Library Program, we could not
5 continue to absorb the paper and microfiche at the rate
6 it was coming in the late "80's and early "90's. It
7 would just—it was impossible. We simply had to have
8 some way of getting around that. So I for one welcome
9 the electronic format for a lot of stuff. It just
10 simply—no getting around the fact that we simply
11 couldn't house the kind of collections we were
12 receiving.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Again, the PDF and the ASCII
14 format, that's an important thing to—whatever, if
15 they're going to go electronic only—is to provide
16 alternative formats in the electronic information.
17 Because, if you're dialing in from home on your old
18 modem, like most of the public — I think 30 percent of
19 all Americans own a computer, were in a computer
20 literate profession — and that, you know, they're going
21 to dial in and they're going to wait, you know, they're
22 paying, you know, by the minute waiting for a PDF file
23 that's 500 pages to come up when if they would have been
24 able to click on the ASCII version of it, they could
25 have looked immediately and said—don't need that. You
26 know, so that, say I know that there's a requirement in
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1 some of the agencies to have—like when you go to the
2 EPA page you have that nice graphic, but you can click
3 on text only. And I guess the thing would be, in your
4 question, if the publications could come in text only as
5 opposed to a PDF format. Because what happens to the
6 library is it transfers the cost to the library too,
7 because when they hit that print button on the 300 page
8 document at your computer, your terminal is generating
9 it out. Because the library, you know, because they
10 couldn't get a copy of the paper copy of the Statistical
11 Abstract of the U.S. or whatever [laughter] and your
12 patrons are just printing it all out full text. And
13 that will change, you know, with technology it's going
14 to change, but that's, you know, so I think the print
15 world will still be there. And obviously, in terms of,
16 as we all are hitting that, you know, the aging
17 population and all that, I have people coming in right
18 now in the library that want to use the card catalogue.
19 Well, it's only on the computer. And, you know, that's
20 a barrier in terms of access for the common citizen, in
21 terms of the people, what, you know, do they have to go
22 to the Internet just to ask a simple question? Should
23 there be a print publication available that they can
24 look at, or if they could request, or whatever.
25 NEW SPEAKER: I would—I was working at an
26 institution that deals a lot with digital formats. I
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1 would strongly suggest that, if EPA is going to
2 continue, and I assume it will continue to look at
3 electronic format, one of the issues that we have to
4 deal with is images. With a lot of these reports there
5 are schematic drawings and charts and tables,
6 photographs. I mean, they don't, they don't work well
7 with ASCII text. I mean, so you, and sometimes that's
8 crucial to the readers understanding of the content.
9 And so, how, if we're going to have this digital future,
10 which I assume, we're there—we're there, it's not the
11 future, it's now—how can we deliver that content
12 digitally, without denying people who don't have access
13 to technology to support post script files and PDF files
14 the same breadth of information? Because as it stands
15 right now, if we rely on text we'd have the send the
16 images separately — send the text as a separate file,
17 and then ask the end-user to somehow be able to compile
18 all that in the end. And people who can't use images
19 will be denied that part of the information, that final
20 piece of information that they want to use. So the
21 technological limitations to this are still very large.
22 For that reason alone, the need to continue paper
23 publication as primary distribution, I think to
24 libraries is still, I think is self evident. We need to
25 do that.
26 NEW SPEAKER: It is nice, though, to have some
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1 electronic format that's quickly, relatively quickly,
2 downloadable, that you can do sort of a triage and
3 figure out whether or not you want it. We try to put up
4 executive summaries of a lot of our reports that people
5 can look at before they get into the, the major one and
6 a half megabyte thing.
7 NEW SPEAKER: And indicating that the file that
8 you are about to download is one and half megabytes.
9 [Laughter, agreement]
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, that is important.
11 NEW SPEAKER: I think what she's talking about
12 is some sort of abstract or a summary of what's in the
13 data. And those are very important. And if the data
14 has any—if the dataset or the publication has any
15 length at all, there needs to be some way for people to
16 get into a decision before they get involved in
17 downloading, particularly electronic. But even in the
18 case of print, it's nice to know something about that
19 publication before you have to go looking for, you know,
20 through page after page after page trying to find out
21 whether or not it's even pertinent to what you're
22 interested in.
23 MODERATOR: Abstract.
24 NEW SPEAKER: And it goes back to what I
25 mentioned earlier was making the abstract searchable.
26 [Agreement] If you can provide searchability on the
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1 Web, let's allow people to search the abstracts.
2 MODERATOR: Okay. Um, you've got out a number
3 of very important kinds of points here. It's time for
4 me to change the tapes again. I think this might be a
5 good place to take a short five minute break. I'll
6 check with the folks in the back room to see which of
7 many possible directions I could take.
8 [ BREAK ]
9 MODERATOR: —databases. It has 123 major Web
10 pages over 50 hotlines. They have libraries and public
11 information centers in each of the headquarters and
12 regional offices. They administer several public
13 distribution centers, and we find that a lot of people
14 say that they simply don't know what's available. The
15 centers or the libraries or the type of information or
16 the hotlines. And you mentioned what a help that book
17 Access was to help to catalogue that, but a lot of
18 people have said that EPA really should advertise what
19 it's got. And we're wondering if you have any thoughts
20 on how to do that — ways in which it could let folks
21 know, in the librarian community and in the general
22 community, what's out there. And Mary, let me ask you
23 if you have any thoughts on that.
24 NEW SPEAKER: What do you think about maybe
25 newspaper ads? A page in the paper occasionally that
26 would just tell about some of the resources that are
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1 available. What you might find in your library.
2 MODERATOR: Have you seen that done on any
3 other topics?
4 NEW SPEAKER: I'm trying to think of something
5 that would be an example.
6 [ TAPE FLIP ]
7 NEW SPEAKER: People really did seriously look
8 at those and then they'd come back to the documents desk
9 saying—do you have this here yet, this document here?
10 [Agreement] So they were being used.
11 NEW SPEAKER: And you mentioned the library
12 association stuff, I know, because I contacted Diane
13 about this meeting and mentioned that I'm planning a
14 program in New Orleans. Some, two people are coming
15 from EPA to speak, but that's to government documents
16 librarians. However, there are a number of associations
17 like the Public Library Association. And I don't know
18 how pro-active—EPA's willing to come if you ask them—
19 but are they asking the different organizations,
20 information societies out there, whether it's an
21 environmental group or whatever saying that they're
22 available or offering to provide—like in Philadelphia
23 in mid-winter conference the NTIS lady sent me a big box
24 of stuff and I just took it to Philadelphia and put it
25 on a back table. They were all gone. I mean, maybe
26 that's what they need — to take a pro-active role in
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1 contacting the organizations that are interested in
2 environmental issues, whether it's a public library, I'm
3 sure there's equivalent environmental education
4 associations, etcetera.
5 NEW SPEAKER: And the other, kind of leaning on
6 Mary's idea, in terms of advertising, not just
7 newspapers, and I don't know of whether they advertise
8 — environmental newsletters and things like that — but
9 even in American Libraries or Library Journal there's a
10 page there that talks about inexpensive or free
11 publications that you can call or write for and,
12 granted, a lot of them you may not be interested in, but
13 certainly they could determine which ones have a wider
14 interest level and advertise.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, I think even in D.C. on the
16 metro I've seen some billboards sometimes the EPA has
17 done with the small business stuff. They're gearing
18 towards the small businesses and I've seen them, you
19 know, in the metro stations, giving the URL for the
20 EPA/SBA information center or whatever. Again, because
21 of the different levels, it's going have to be multi-
22 media. It just can't be—the Web page is really cool,
23 and you can advertise that all over the place. But if
24 people don't have a computer at home, you know, it
25 needs, you know, you can't hit every local newspaper I
26 guess, but in terms of what some of the newsletters that
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1 are free advertisements, if you send them a flyer they
2 probably would mention it.
3 MODERATOR: Okay. Lindsey, did you have
4 anything?
5 NEW SPEAKER: I don't have any original
6 thoughts, but these all sound great. [Laughter] I'd
7 like to add, though, that in the public library we need
8 information that is geared to the layperson. So we
9 don't want the original documents with the 500 pages.
10 We want, as you said, the summary, the conclusion. Also
11 locally based things, either state-wide or local to your
12 region, you know. Because the questions are going to
13 be—what is the air quality in Charlottesville-
14 Albemarle? What is the water quality? That's the kind
15 of thing that we need to be able to answer.
16 MODERATOR: And would it be helpful to have
17 that on, via the Internet?
18 NEW SPEAKER: Eventually, when we have the
19 Internet. But—
20 MODERATOR: Not at the moment. Is that the
21 answer?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it could be there. It's
23 not going to help me immediately.
24 NEW SPEAKER: They don't have a public
25 terminal.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, definitely though.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Where you do have it.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah definitely.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Even the Access EPA hasn't had a
4 print version since "93. It's now on the Web, but there
5 hasn't been a print one that was distributed. And I
6 think when that first came out it was targeted. Was it
7 sent to all public libraries? I don't know. I mean—
8 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, it was.
9 NEW SPEAKER: It was sent to all public
10 libraries. It was done, but that was in ^93 and there
11 hasn't been a new edition.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, you have to admit that
13 those things—I mean, yes, the Internet's great, but if
14 you're like me and you don't have your book—I
15 frequently need—so I don't have the EPA bookmarked. So
16 it's going to take me longer to get there and find what
17 I need than the just go to the shelf and flip to that
18 page in the directory. And that's going to be true for
19 a lot of libraries.
20 NEW SPEAKER: So that's a basic tool that could
21 be, is an example of something that was done good, but
22 it hasn't been updated since it was done good.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Does the EPA publish in paper
24 form, an annual report of its—the accomplishments, its
25 major goals that were, you know—
26 MODERATOR: An annual report?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
2 MODERATOR: It hasn't for a while, unlike some
3 other countries. And actually, Diane, who introduced
4 and kicked off this meeting, is an expert in that area.
5 She'll be here after the meeting if you want to ask her
6 then.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, no, I'm not asking. I'm
8 suggesting that simply, that ought to be a mandate every
9 year. The EPA, I'm sure, funds how many hundreds of
10 millions of dollars of research projects every year?
11 And, you know, what is a—what's a consolidated report
12 that would maybe highlight the major research that was
13 done, that could, you know, bring everything into focus
14 say, for the past year. And that would, you know, be
15 helpful, I think, to the public. To the libraries too.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Unfortunately, annual reports
17 have a way of becoming politicized, and I've seen too
18 many instances of that, in which they become so
19 summarized until it becomes totally meaningless. So, I-
20 -although I agree with what you're saying, I think it is
21 the potential for making it a political issue are
22 enormous.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Like John and I were talking
24 about on break—we were talking about the stream of
25 information narrowing back in the "80s and then widening
26 in "92. Well, what was the significance of that? You
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1 had Bush and Reagan in the 80's and in "92 you had a
2 Democratic in, you know, administration commanding. You
3 saw the EPA's publications multiplying (exactly). And
4 that's exactly what we are talking about here is
5 politics.
6 NEW SPEAKER: And if you're talking about just,
7 uh, information access, that's one thing. But in terms
8 of presenting the EPA as an agency to the public,
9 whether or not the EPA does anything, you know that Rush
10 Limbaugh is informing people about the EPA. And when
11 Governor Allen here in Virginia was having his
12 discussions with EPA, then the citizens of Virginia
13 learned about the EPA through newspaper articles about
14 state, Federal discussions on who was really accountable
15 for enforcing water standards. So that was the case and
16 that's how the public was learning. Now what control,
17 if any, EPA had on that, the point is still that folks
18 are going to get a perception of what the Agency is
19 about. And even if that's outside the bounds of how to
20 get information from it, that may impact whether a
21 person would go to get the information, or back to your
22 balance question, it would effect whether they would
23 understand EPA to be reliable, to connect the question.
24 So I think it's impossible to really separate out when
25 you're talking about the Agency's relationship to the
26 public, its PR relationship from what it's actually
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1 providing. Because it breaks down for comfort level or
2 enthusiasm about learning more, then they should get
3 information about the Agency from the Agency, not just
4 from those who might be attacking it.
5 MODERATOR: Okay. So you would be open to
6 additional kinds of advertising or public relations that
7 tells what EPA has to offer.
8 NEW SPEAKER: I think so.
9 NEW SPEAKER: The IRS is doing it right now.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
11 NEW SPEAKER: They've supposedly changed their
12 image.
13 NEW SPEAKER: They were by law required to do
14 that. [Laughter]
15 NEW SPEAKER: The local schools. Say,
16 "Charlottesville Public Schools, a success story.' That
17 kind of thing.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Because most people don't even
19 know what EPA is unless they live by a Superfund site.
20 Because when I went home last—I talked to my Mom and I
21 mentioned EPA, and she goes, "What's EPA?" Because
22 unless you have been directly effected by the Agency,
23 you know, you know, again we're in an information—I
24 work in the government—the acronyms—there's no
25 problem. Any agency you can name in acronym, I can tell
26 you what the acronym is. But I mean, there is—that's
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1 the—education is going to be on different levels. And
2 going to that lowest level, in terms of hitting the
3 people, is going to be on the level of the newspapers.
4 Something like that. Because you can go to the library
5 conferences too, you know, and you hope that the
6 librarians will go back and advertise that to their
7 constituents, but—
8 NEW SPEAKER: Would you like to advertise on my
9 library's homepage?
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. [Laughter]
11 NEW SPEAKER: Well it also depends on, again,
12 the mission. But if you're taking it and you're talking
13 about marketing and PR and education, and you're taking
14 it to the lower level, you know—I don't know how much
15 they want to do outreach—but when you talk about
16 science projects, outreach to students and at what
17 level? How low do you go? Science publications that
18 are geared towards college students or elementary
19 school, middle school, junior high school age students.
20 You know, does the EPA try to do outreach, and how much
21 of that is their purpose? But again, like you said, no
22 one even knows what they do or who they are. So why not
23 start with the students?
24 NEW SPEAKER: That's true. I mean even Fish
25 and Wildlife has the Duck Stamp contest every year. I
26 don't know if EPA—does EPA have a high school science
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1 or gear a program toward education? I mean, I don't
2 even know.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Geological Survey did
4 publications once where they explained not only what
5 they did, but they explained maps and how to read a map
6 (Right) and all of that. And.those were, I mean, there
7 were grown-ups who use those. I used to do those, take
8 those on the road.
9 NEW SPEAKER: I think that EPA sponsors the
10 Envirothon? Is that right? Are they the ultimate
11 sponsors of the Envirothon? Do you know John?
12 NEW SPEAKER: If they are I'm not aware of
13 that. I think that's through the Soil and Water
14 Conservation District.
15 NEW SPEAKER: That's a problem too, when people
16 don't even know.
17 MODERATOR: I got to move us along to your
18 final assignment here because we are rapidly running out
19 of time. Because you have so much to say good, I think
20 I need to top it. We've got to hit this last one. What
21 are the most important things, and you can throw them
22 out and then maybe we'll have to arrange them, that EPA
23 can do for you and your clients in terms of getting
24 environmental information out in a useful way. If the
25 people at the top making policy need to know what's
26 going to be most helpful, what of the many things we've
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1 said tonight would you tell them to tackle first?
2 NEW SPEAKER: They need to publicize what data
3 they collect.
4 NEW SPEAKER: I think that in connection with
5 that, there should not be any publications or data that
6 gets lost in the shuffle. And I think if EPA has a
7 problem that, you know—in the past it's been the
8 enormous amount of research that has gone on, the
9 enormous amount of information that they have been
10 responsible for. And yet, it was extremely difficult to
11 get some sort of centralized access to that information
12 so that you could go to a single place, whether it was
13 a publication catalogue, whether it was in fact a Web
14 site. There needs to be some place that they can
15 account for the research they're doing at the individual
16 laboratories, at— Publications being authored by the
17 regional offices need to get into some sort of national
18 data system so that those of use who live in
19 Charlottesville can find out that whoever, whatever
20 district California is in, that we can find an EPA
21 publication that was, that came out of their regional
22 office or whatever.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Mine would be to have an updated
24 print version of Access EPA, and give a free copy to all
25 the public libraries. Like I said, the first time they
26 did send it to everyone, right?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: But don't take it off the Web.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
3 NEW SPEAKER: In addition to.
4 NEW SPEAKER: In addition to, yeah this is in
5 addition to.
6. NEW SPEAKER: That's what I'm saying, in
7 addition to. It's still a valuable source on the Web.
8 NEW SPEAKER: And for the public libraries—
9 should be the practical, presented in layman's terms.
10 Most people don't use the scientific data or reports.
11 They use the sort of things we've talked about, you
12 know, air quality in the region.
13 MODERATOR: The context we talked about. Is
14 that practical, lay terms?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Uh-huh.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Well even if they don't do the
17 data, if EPA could maybe be a clearinghouse of contacts,
18 like suggested, like who to contact on the local level.
19 In terms of—surely they have contacts if they're going
20 to do a study somewhere in this county, they know who to
21 contact within the City of Charlottesville, don't they?
22 They would know how to, you know what I mean, they would
23 know where to start when they start with the planning
24 district, whatever. I mean, recommended starting
25 points, locally and regionally.
26 NEW SPEAKER: That's a great idea.
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1 MODERATOR: Let me get back to this. I'm not
2 sure I got all of this, practical. You're saying for
3 the laypeople, stuff they'll understand.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Just the everyday person who
5 conies in and asks for—I'm thinking of moving to
6 Charlottesville, and they want to know about the air
7 quality in Charlottesville. And they wouldn't care
8 about big tables of data. They would just need—it's
9 like Consumer Reports. They want to know the basics.
10 Do you recommend this or not? Or the Consumer Price
11 Index.
12 MODERATOR: The circles and the half circles
13 and all that.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Don't they do that in the "Places
15 Rated?' Isn't that one of the things they include?
16 Air, water quality—
17 NEW SPEAKER: They do, but of course it's a
18 limited number of places.
19 NEW SPEAKER: But if somebody decides that they
20 do want to look up what the water quality is in Meadow
21 Creek, then there needs to be some help for them in
22 understanding the terminology for that too.
23 NEW SPEAKER: That interpretation may come from
24 the local contact, if you're working with, you know,
25 somebody locally.
26 NEW SPEAKER: But if you, if you happen to find
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1 some of this, I mean, some of this information, urn, you
2 know, is out there on the Web, not necessarily for
3 Meadow Creek, but if, you know, you find some of that
4 out there and you're surfing around at eleven o'clock at
5 night, it would be really helpful if there were
6 something on the Web that would help you understand it.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we're talking about a
8 thesaurus again.
9 NEW SPEAKER: No, what's the acceptable range?
10 You know, if you're, it would be nice if you had the
11 water quality, you know, when you look up water quality
12 it tells you what that means and then also gives the
13 acceptable range.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Can I, can I suggest something
16 too? And I don't know if it would be politically
17 proper. Develop an educational program for, urn, say
18 elementary age kids that explains what the Agency does
19 and its goals?
20 NEW SPEAKER: Sort of a Woodsy Owl at EPA.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yes, something like that.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Smokey the Bear for EPA.
23 [Laughter]
24 NEW SPEAKER: And a list of science projects
25 and where to go.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Because, you know, start now and
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1 in thirty years from now those kids, they probably won't
2 be as pollution prone as we are—.as my generation is.
3 I remember campaigns when I was a kid, you know.
4 Littering, uh, you know the forestry type of stuff,
5 Smokey the Bear and all that. And it formed habits, it
6 really did. And if you are able to do something like
7 that through an educational arm of some type or a group,
8 it would really be, uh, have an impact later on.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. Review.
10 NEW SPEAKER: So develop a mascot for EPA.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. [Laughter]
12 NEW SPEAKER: It would be a great public
13 relations tool in terms of—
14 NEW SPEAKER: Well they used to do comic books,
15 they had uh, they had a couple of comic books they put
16 out in the "70s.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Reggie the Regulator. [Laughter]
18 MODERATOR: Okay. Other things that you think
19 top people have to hear about getting the information
20 out?
21 NEW SPEAKER: They have to realize that there
22 are several levels of users. You have the research
23 oriented people who are looking for data, raw data. And
24 then you move down several levels to the general public
25 who we've talked about before. They want conclusions.
26 They want something that they can understand about the,
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1 you know, effects of an element in their environment.
2 They don't want to have to analyze reams of data.
3 MODERATOR: Okay. So understand the different
4 requirements for the many different types of users.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Of the end-users.
6 MODERATOR: The end-users. I'm going to ask you
7 which are the three most important.
8 NEW SPEAKER: I'll second the goals one.
9 MODERATOR: Which one is that? Goals.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Or is that a new one?
11 NEW SPEAKER: I thought it was what the
12 gentleman just said about the, the—particularly for
13 elementary kids—
14 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, the educational program.
15 NEW SPEAKER: The primer on, in very simple
16 terms, not only for kids too, but just for the quick
17 read by the adult population is—why is this agency here
18 and what is it trying to do?
19 MODERATOR: Okay. So it's an educational program of
20 what EPA is up to.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Because that sets a context.
23 Context has been mentioned in other ways, about context
24 in community and so forth. But that sets the context
25 for the relationship of the U.S. citizen to this agency.
26 NEW SPEAKER: And I would push the Access EPA
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1 as sort of an educational tool for the public, in terms
2 of, if they're looking to see who to call for Super fund
3 information they don't have, they could look in that
4 book at their library. So, I think that would be a top
5 one.
6 NEW SPEAKER: I think who to contact regionally
7 and locally is very important (agreement) to me to deal
8 with--
9 NEW SPEAKER: Well that would be included in
10 the Access EPA
11 NEW SPEAKER: It could be Access Environment.
12 That could be it.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. We want to combine the
14 information source.
15 NEW SPEAKER: The Internet. Is that included
16 in that last one? On the Web too. I mean, I can't
17 emphasize that too much. I think that Internet is
18 really very key now.
19 MODERATOR: That is the development,
20 maintenance, improvement?
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Access through the
22 Internet because the EPA is—God knows how many
23 thousands of publications—and our library is not going
24 to have them, and that's the way it—that's the way to
25 go, I think.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. I'm afraid I'm going to have
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1 to ask you to vote. And I guess I'm going to, I'm going
2 to combine this five and Access, who to contact. Okay?
3 Six, seven, eight.
4 NEW SPEAKER: How different are six from six
5 and seven?
6 NEW SPEAKER: And nine and ten are sort of the
7 same too.
8 MODERATOR: You think you want to combine—
9 NEW SPEAKER: Or seven and eight.
10 MODERATOR: Seven and eight?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Good point.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Seven and eight can be combined,
13 and nine and ten could probably be combined too.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Six is a separate from seven and
15 eight.
16 MODERATOR: Terminology and thesaurus we say we
17 can combine. Okay. I'm afraid it's come down to show
18 of hands.
19 NEW SPEAKER: We pick our top three? Or—
20 MODERATOR: You get to vote for three.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Oh.
22 MODERATOR: One?
23 NEW SPEAKER: Can you read them please?
24 MODERATOR: One. EPA needs to understand that
25 there are different levels of users in existence and
26 tailor information to the different levels, the
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1 researchers to the general public. That's one bullet.
2 NEW SPEAKER: I'm not going to vote and I tell
3 you the reason why. I, I think' all of these at varying
4 levels are critical (um-hm). They're critically
5 important to the Agency, and I think that all of these
6 need to be communicated to EPA management. And I, I
7 think enough of them are related to—you could probably
8 categorize them in about three different ways. One is
9 to recognize and acknowledge the various levels of
10 users. And that gets involved down here in the
11 terminology explanation, thesaurus, and that sort of
12 thing. And then they need an educational mission. And
13 again, that's involved in—that's tied in with that
14 public relations issue.
15 NEW SPEAKER: That's also tied in with
16 "publicize their data.'
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah exactly.
18 NEW SPEAKER: And, oh, and the third biggie as
19 far as I'm concerned is making sure that there is some
20 way of plugging into the information and data they are,
21 uh, they are producing and making available.
22 MODERATOR: That may relate three and four and
23 five.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Whether it's done through the
25 Internet or public or print, the idea would be some
26 combination of the two.
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1 MODERATOR: Anybody want to add to that? I'm
2 glad you don't want to vote.
3 NEW SPEAKER: That was great.
4 NEW SPEAKER: I agree. [Agreement]
5 MODERATOR: I like that. Synthesis.
6 NEW SPEAKER: I think it's perfect like it is.
7 We don't need to— [Laughter]
8 MODERATOR: Alright. My very last thing is to
9 ask you to fill out a little inventory about data that
10 you may use what you want. And then we are through,
11 folks, and thank you very much for a very productive
12 meeting.
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Charlottesville, VA, Librarians Discussion Group-1 CIP and IA Coding
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One of the needs for starting this from the ground up was, in terms of information needs of customers is~
what shape is the creek in behind my house? And you're typically not going to have a Federal or state agency
with a sample site on someone's creek out back. So one of the things they're looking for is not only data, but
techniques to bring their situation into the data pool.
That's the most frequent question, uh, unfilled request that we get, is how to get data on a very specific kind
of stream or water body.
oftentimes the need is who is accountable for what situation. That what the person calling needs is a road
map on what's EPA in control of versus DEQ versus the planning district versus a small non-profit versus
my neighborhood association, the water resources manager, just a walk through.
Finding the information in digital format was the biggest challenge. Once we identified that the studies were
being done and data was gathered, it was finding it in a format that we could use that would allow it to be
plugged into a GIS or some other sort of analytical tool. And so I used to spend a lot of my time trying to find
out what agency in the area had some of this data because, unfortunately, a lot of the depository information
that we received through GPO wasn't that digital data. Now that began to become apparent with some of the
products that came out a couple of years ago, but there's still a lot of very hard, raw scientific data sets that
we have a hard time locating. It's one thing to say--we'd like to know what the condition of a stream is. It's
another thing to say—I would like to see the data set that includes the initial measurements of a particular
toxin or effluent. And that is the stuff that's hard to find.
we did a lot of informal consortia here in the region with some of the state agencies: the regional state
Department of Transportation, VDOT; the Division of Mineral Resources here in Charlottesville; and
Virginia Tech and its Department of Geography. We all have sort of informal arrangements, and even faculty
here at the University of Virginia in the environmental sciences. Do you know somebody who has this? I
mean, that's how we were finding a lot of data.
At one time, not only true for data in electronic format but for publications, trying to find out who on earth
issued or may have issued a particular set of data — we're talking water quality, air quality, whatever ~ was
just a nightmare. And often what you had to do is to find somebody in the field, either a footnote or some
reference, and based on the fact that the publication site may have been Cincinnati, take a guess that it's the
regional EPA laboratory that's in Cincinnati or if it's at Research Triangle Park. If you didn't get that kind of
citation it was virtually impossible until you started calling people and asking them~do you have any idea
which EPA laboratory may have been involved in this? That's still a problem today with historical
publications that go back.
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That Access EPA was the single greatest tool, at that time, that EPA ever put out for those of us who were
trying to get information to other folks. It just was such a Godsend in terms of being able at last to get a
handle on it.
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if you're trying to find information that defines a small geographic area in great detail. In that case we find
that, at least 1 have found, that it's more effective to work with the state agency with that responsibility.
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I find that really the state level works best. The local governments aren't responsible for gathering the data
and don't tend to have the data, and when I've tried looking on a Federal level, I've mostly found that the data
came in larger geographic areas than I was interested in.
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the question which was being addressed earlier about national and state data~I think a lot depends on the
requestor too. Those in the academic community tend to be interested in the national picture, I think overall,
in terms of teaching assignments and that sort of thing~by the academic community, I'm talking about those
who are doing the teaching and that sort of thing-and looking for models. And then when you get down to
the individual student level, they're often trying to put into practice something that they are supposed to be
doing in class, and they are looking for models to do a look at local level. And I think that the other thing that
tends to be even more interested in state and especially local data are individual citizens.
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In
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People coming into the public library want a conclusion. They want to know is it harmful. They want the
bottom line. And I think we all rely on local contacts, local agencies, county or city agencies -- calling them,
finding out, basically finding a root for that person who's asking the question to go to get to the answer. That
person's not going to care if there's point five million parts of PCBs in, you know, a gallon of water in the
creek. They want to know how dangerous in subjective terms.
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So how to make a huge amount of information meaningful to the general public will not be solved by
excellent provision of information [but by] helping the public analyze the information and get questions
answered, and getting into all the things. Who's accountable for what? What are the regulations here? What
steps can I take? Do I--is it Federal Court? Is it a voluntary action? Is, uh, what do I do, how do I proceed?
Who do I talk to about that? And that's a lot more work. So it's a difficult challenge, and I'm certainly not
suggesting EPA's going to handle all that, but just as a partner in the Federal, state, local, local
knowledgeable person about how the world works in your township. How to make that connection is
something that everyone needs to work on.
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I think we need to be careful to recognize the general public includes, not just who we stereotypically think of
as John Q. Public, but also, you know, researchers and students and academicians and others who have, who
need information at various levels of analysis. And some folks just need the raw data and they do their own
analysis. Some people need to have, as this gentleman just mentioned, an end product that answers a
question. But all of these users, you know, are still in some way needing access to the same original material,
whether it's before analysis or after. They still need access to the data.
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17
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I think the most frequent failing of Federal agencies these days in providing information is not providing a
glossary or set of definitions of what they're talking about. Use of jargon language with no way of, for an
average person to comprehend what they are talking about.
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But whenever publications are coming up electronic only, is someone within EPA notifying GPO? Because
they're the ones that are cataloguing that so when you look on their monthly catalogue, you will be able to
search by subject and have a link to that publication on their Web site. So that's something to make sure, in
terms of making the information more accessible, besides the Web page, is also notifying an appropriate
agency. And in this case the Government Printing Office is one, is the main contact for public and academic
libraries for information.
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13
if it's down at the community level, where you just get somebody that's interested in something, I think EPA
lends a certain credence to it. That is--this came from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. It's got to
be accurate. So again, I think it depends on how they perceive, you know, the production of the data. I think
the only time that I really have faced questions about reliability of data, it's simply somebody wants the data
who is doing their own project, again at the academic level. And they're trying to reproduce the results, and
they want the data, not so much to verify its reliability, although I guess that's probably one of the targets, but
they're just interested in how the data was arrived at and how they can verify whether or not the conditions
still exist.
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It goes back somewhat to, if you can provide the data of so many parts per million of a pollutant, be it air,
water, or whatever, but then provide something on the screen or in the publication that gives the person
who's looking at that an idea of what the effects of that level of pollution are, then that would give them a
good feeling of the reliability.
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16
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they want tomorrow's results today. 'They' being both academics and community users. You know, it's one
of those situations where the sooner it can be gotten out the better.
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The issue of archiving electronic information. I don't know how EPA as an agency is addressing that issue.
So if they put up the current year of the toxic release inventory and then 1999 comes up, is "98 still there
when they run out of room on the server? Will someone decide—well, let's dump the last five years, no one
needs the old stuff anyway. I mean, that's an issue that I have a concern, in terms of access to the old stuff.
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most of our patrons are not expecting to pull information off the Internet at this point, so—it's like the IRS.
They still want the books so they can make copies. Think about how the IRS puts out information. That's the
way, unfortunately, that's the way our patrons expect government information to come.
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13
I think the momentum is going toward electronic files even in the public library area. We have four public
terminals, one iiv each of our branches and they're used all (he time. And you see that the different types of
people who come in and use the Net for various things. And the public is rapidly being educated to access
the Net. I'm not going to say that paper editions of major studies aren't unneeded in public libraries or other
public agencies, but I think electronic files are becoming more and more important, and if you can make them
more and more accessible to laypeople, and, you know, along with researchers, I think that's one route to go.
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25
Most of my requests come by phone. So, that's a clue as to how people come to you. Some are Web hits,
but perhaps like you, or more likely at a lower level than my Web skills. And so I think for a while we're
going to need a diversity of approaches, and one fear I have about the electronic movement, though I support
it, is that it will cut off people who aren't in that world. And that's a way off. And the excitement of moving
there, to the extent it draws away being able to reach a warm body OD the phone, for example, 1 think would
be a mistake.
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20
I think with reports it's really important lo have a paper copy available. Especialry if they're any size at all.
People want a big thick thing that they can flip through and find out what's important. They do not want to
sit there scrolling through it on the screen. On the other hand, for detailed data that's behind the report,
people want it electronic because they're going to take it and they're going to put it in their own spread sheet
and they're going to play with it. So that's what we find. We give out, sell an awful lot of paper reports, but
that the detailed data that we give out is all electronic.
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11
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a large, say 300 page, report is gigantic if that's something that you are going to try to produce as a digital
file. Particularly if the file is an image file like a PDF file. And that creates a lot of end-user problems and
requirements. They've got to have machines that can handle these kinds of file sizes, and not to mention the
issues with moving something that large through most band width limitations on the Internet right now. So,
at least in terms of what they disseminate to libraries, I'd say fill the Depository Library Program where paper
is still available or seems to be the best way to get it to most people. Those who like to use digital resources
prefer it, but what it may also mean is that if they're going to put the reports up in digital format, they've got
to be organized in ways that allow people to maybe download part of the report rather than all 20 chapters. I
mean there are lots of logistics that would have to be considered to maximize the ability of people, not only to
access it bat to use it
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17
I have people coming in right now in the library that want to use the card catalogue. -Well, it's only on the
computer. And, you know, that's a barrier in (erms of access for the common citizen, in terms of ihe people,
what, you know, do they have to go to the Internet just to ask a simple question?
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I think what she's talking about is some sort of abstract or a summary of what's in the data. And those are
very important. And if the data has any—if the dataset or the publication has any length at all, there needs to
be some way for people to get into a decision before they get involved in downloading, particularly
electronic. But even in the case of print, it's nice to know something about that publication before you have
to go looking for, you know, through page after page after page trying to find out whether or not it's even
pertinent to what you're interested in.
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gd
in the public library we need information that is geared to the layperson. So we don't want the original
documents with the 500 pages. We want, as you said, the summary, the conclusion. Also locally based
things, either state-wide or local to your region, you know. Because the questions are going to be-what is
the air quality in Charlottesville-Albemarle? What is the water quality? That's the kind of thing that we need
to be able to answer.
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gd
I think if EPA has a problem that, you know-in the past it's been the enormous amount of research that has
gone on, the enormous amount of information that they have been responsible for. And yet, it was extremely
difficult to get some sort of centralized access to that information so that you could go to a single place,
whether il was a publication catalogue, whether it was in fact a Web site. There needs to be some place that
they can account for the research they're doing at the individual laboratories, at— Publications being authored
by the regional offices need to get into some sort of national data system so that those of use who live in
Charlottesville can find out that whoever, whatever district California is in, that we can find an EPA
publication that was, that came out of their regional office or whatever.
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M
And for the public libraries—should be the practical, presented in layman's terms. Most people don't use the
scientific data or reports. They use the sort of things we've talked about, you know, air quality in the region.
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M
They have to realize that there are several levels of users. You have the research oriented people who are
looking for dala, raw data. And then you move down several levels to the general public who we've talked
about before. They want conclusions. They want something that they can understand about the, you know,
effects of an element in their environment. They don't want to have to analyze reams of data.
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U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region III
Public Meeting on Environmental Information
+ + + + +
Pittsburgh, PA, Media Discussion Group
+ + + + +
March 4, 1999
The Outreach Discussion met in Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania at 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., Laurie Davidson,
moderator.
PRESENT!
LEE CHOTTINER, Beaver County Times
PATRICIA K. DIVINCENZO, WPXI
LYNNE GLOVER, Pittsburgh Tribune Review
FRANK GOTTLIEB, KQV
DON HOPEY, Pittsburgh Post Gazette
STEVE JOYCE, KDKA
TODD E. ZAHNISER, Air and Waste Management Association
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1 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) I want to thank you brave
2 souls for being here today. I know it wasn't the easy
3 thing in the world to get here. I 'm so happy to see
4 snow because we haven't seen any at home since "95. We
5 haven't had any accumulation at all, so we appreciate
6 you being here. This is a group discussion. What we
7 are trying to find out, as I said to you on the phone,
8 is how we can best deliver information to you so that
9 you can get it to the public. We will take your
10 suggestions into consideration. We are doing this in
11 several different parts of the region, but you are the
12 only media group, so we appreciate you being as candid
13 as possible. And welcome. Thank you.
14 MODERATOR: Okay. Judy and her colleagues get
15 to watch us from behind the glass. Just remember Big
16 Brother is watching. [Laughter] I'm Laurie Davidson,
17 and I too want to thank you for being here today, and
18 I'm from Princeton Economic Research. We do work for
19 the EPA, so I'm not an EPA employee. Whatever you tell
20 me, positive or negative, about the EPA will not phase
21 me. We just want your opinions today. As Judy said, we
22 are holding a series of meetings throughout the Mid-
23 Atlantic states with various groups. Last week it was
24 the librarians in Charlottesville, Virginia. We will
25 also be meeting with environmental educators. Hey,
26 welcome. Just get a card and please find a seat. Make
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1 yourself a little tag here and let us—audio and video
2 taping this by signing this, and welcome. I was just
3 saying that I'm not an EPA employee. I'm Laurie
4 Davidson from PERI, and Region III is doing this group,
5 these groups throughout its states—Pennsylvania,
6 Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware. And we're also
7 talking to environmental educators, to people in local
8 environmental groups, business people. So a broad
9 cross section of folks. Each of these meetings is
10 going to get to the senior management of the EPA at
11 Region III, and they will be using your suggestions in
12 efforts to restructure their information program. So
13 we're real eager to hear what you have to say. This
14 group is going to last two hours. We are audio taping
15 and video taping. Urn, you must be me. [Laughter] We
16 haven't introduced ourselves yet, actually. Folks are
17 watching us behind the mirror, Lee, just for your
18 information. And we are audio taping and video taping
19 so I don't have to take notes, but this is by definition
20 a public meeting. And as Lynne says—oh good, all we
21 have to do is start and folks show up.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Steve Joyce from KDKA.
23 MODERATOR: Oh, welcome. Find yourself a seat,
24 make yourself a name tag, and please fill out the orange
25 sheet that says we can audio and video tape you.
26 Alright. So this is a public meeting. Your remarks are
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1 on a public record, should anyone be interested, but we
2 don't expect to see you on, is it WPXI tonight? Or
3 KDKA. [Laughter] Alright. Some guidelines about
4 participation today. Information is going to come out
5 of your discussion. I hope you will be discussing with
6 each other more than with me, although I'm going to
7 throw out some questions to get us rolling along.
8 Please feel free to get up walk around. Help yourself
9 to the refreshments. Use the rest rooms. Rest rooms
10 are straight out the front door you came in, down to the
11 end of the hall until you can't go any further, and make
12 a left. They're right there. Just feel comfortable to
13 move in and out. Get whatever you need. You don't have
14 to wait to be called on. If you feel like you want to
15 say something, just jump into the conversation. Tell us
16 both positive and negative ideas. That helps the
17 conversation move along. And I guess I need start by
18 asking you introduce yourself to the group. Tell us a
19 little bit about your work and where you work, and let's
20 start here with Patti.
21 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Patti DiVincenzo. I'm with
22 WPXI.
23 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Todd Zahniser. I'm the
24 Publications Director with Air and Waste Management
25 Association. We are a non-profit here in Pittsburgh,
26 but it's an international association that represents
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1 about 12,000 environmental professionals. As
2 Publications Director, I oversee our Web site, our
3 technical research journal, our environmental business
4 magazine, and our book publishing and sales program.
5 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Lynne Glover. I'm a science
6 writer with the Pittsburgh Tribune Review. I cover all
7 aspects of science. I would say probably about 50
8 percent of the stories that I write, however, are
9 environmental interest stories.
10 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Frank Gottlieb, News Director
11 of KQV, the all-news station here in town. And
12 occasionally the EPA is in the news.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Steve Joyce. I'm the News
14 Production Coordinator at KDKA, and as such have
15 responsibility supervising all of our crews in the field
16 and the assignment desk that would handle, respond, and
17 schedule interviews and coverage of environmental
18 stories.
19 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Lee Chottiner. I'm a general
20 Science Reporter at the Beaver County Times. I do the
21 lion's share of the environmental writing up there, and
22 before I made that move I was the Environmental Reporter
23 for the Morgantown Community Post.
24 MODERATOR: And your activities?
25 NEW SPEAKER: The Investigative Producer.
26 MODERATOR: Alright. Now one thing that would
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1 help me very much is if we could talk about what is an
2 environmental story in your worlds.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Our separate worlds, or—
4 [Laughter]
5 MODERATOR: Well, you know, for you in the work
6 that you do.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Environmental—I don't want to
8 say our readers aren't sophisticated about the
9 environmental news, but sometimes it's hard to bring it
10 down, bring it to their perspective. I think what they
11 might consider an environmental story is whether or not
12 there is pollution in their back yard who's cleaning it
13 up, which has been the kind of story we have been doing
14 as of late. There have been several companies in our
15 county, now [inaudible] has since moved out of the
16 county, are still responsible for sites—waste sites—
17 that they left in Beaver County years ago when there was
18 no regulations. There was no EPA. And that is the type
19 of the story we've been doing of late. It's very
20 simple. Is there a dump? Clean it up.
21 MODERATOR: Okay. I think I want to start a
22 list here. So this is urn—
23 NEW SPEAKER: Is there an old factory site?
24 Clean it up.
25 MODERATOR: Dump. Old site. So you said
26 pollution and clean-up were operative words here.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm. And we've done stories on
2 emission, on water, but this is the priority story for
3 our readers at least. I can't speak for my colleagues.
4 MODERATOR: Either I'm writing wrong or this
5 pen needs help. Okay. Other folks want to jump in and
6 tell us how you define it for your readers?
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, anything that has to do
8 with the environment can be classified as that, but also
9 if it has to do with employment or if it has to do with
10 development, that by extension that becomes an
11 environmental story.
12 MODERATOR: Can you give me an example please?
13 NEW SPEAKER: If there is a dispute over
14 regulations between a township and Federal standards or
15 because of a new guideline that the EPA is mandating,
16 it's going to require a company to either invest a
17 significant amount of money to stay up to snuff with
18 your requirements, and therefore they may not be quite
19 be as profitable as they would like to be.
20 MODERATOR: Okay. So that's the regulations
21 and their impact on business, which might have effect on
22 the bottom line, employments, and so forth. [Agreement]
23 Okay. So that would be an environmental story. Okay.
24 Other examples please.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, we've had the ozone impact
26 days over the summer and, of course, the ozone transport
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1 region, and various suits that were filed last year over
2 the up-wind emissions affecting this area has been maybe
3 the major EPA-related story.
4 MODERATOR: Okay. So for you, you're thinking
5 environmental as EPA-related.
6 NEW SPEAKER: That also brings up a little bit
7 of confusion some people have. At the newsroom this
8 morning I was talking about going to this meeting and I
9 was just soliciting input, and there is some confusion
10 between the EPA and the DEP between states and Federal.
11 You know, who has jurisdiction over what?
12 MODERATOR: Okay. We can get into that in a
13 little bit, but let's continue along here a little bit.
14 But that did seem to come out of something you were
15 saying. I heard that, yeah.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Certainly, you know, to
17 reiterate—urn, I mean the business aspect of the
18 environment, how companies are affected by new
19 regulations, by new requirements. That's certainly one
20 aspect that we'll look at. Urn, and how it affects
21 peoples lives—how a polluted stream or waterway in
22 someone's neighborhood is a problem, and what is the
23 cause of the problem and what's the solution to the
24 problem. And—but beyond that, I mean, you know, the—I
25 guess one of the hot topics here, you know, nationwide,
26 is this issue of sustainability and, you know, whether,
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1 you know, how we're going grow our city and how people
2 want to grow it or how they don't want to grow it. I
3 mean, these are other issues. But, you know, really,
4 like the scope for me of environmental stories could be,
5 you know, a dump that is putting a nature preserve on
6 it. I mean, that's kind of an interesting. You know,
7 you think of a dump and you think of garbage, and yet
8 there are landfills that are trying to do something
9 maybe better. I mean, so I'm looking at it from, what
10 damage is the landfill causing, but also, well here's
11 something interesting going on in the landfill that
12 people don't know about. So just kind of looking for
13 different environmental kinds of stories, whether, you
14 know, it's like backyard habitats—getting people
15 certifying their back yards to be a wildlife habitat or
16 something—to bats in the air and how, you know, or
17 endangered species. I mean, just kind of the whole
18 cross section of, you know, kind of combining nature and
19 environment and, uh, how it impacts peoples lives.
20 Society.
21 MODERATOR: So that's a perspective that you
22 take. Okay. Any others?
23 NEW SPEAKER: Well, from a television
24 standpoint, I mean, in order to compete with all the
25 other kinds of stories that television does in the
26 amount of time we have to do it, we have to show that it
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1 affects people and how it affects people. And it's
2 gonna get extra bonus points if it's visual.
3 MODERATOR: Can you give me an example of
4 what's a real good story?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Well, where is it in West
6 Virginia that there are taking the—they are doing the
7 mining where they take the tops off? Do know what I'm
8 talking about?
9 NEW SPEAKER: That's in Mingo County.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Right. Now that would be—yeah,
11 that would be a hard, a hard news story because we don't
12 do that many features. We do hard news. A lot of hard
13 news. So that would be something that would be visual
14 and, you know, that kind of thing. But it does compete
15 against a lot of other things that television—anything
16 general across the country we give a higher priority to.
17 And I think part of it is what you said. I mean, it's
18 how well we tell people how it affects them, and it's
19 how we understand it.
20 NEW SPEAKER: And how well the EPA tells us.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Right. Because if we don't
22 understand it, we can't tell other people how—they are
23 thinking of why they should care when they're just
24 trying to pay their bills.
25 NEW SPEAKER: I covered stakeholders meetings
26 a lot—some of the stakeholders meetings last year—and
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1 EPA was trying to explain the various steps of the
2 process, which were very clear in their minds, but they
3 couldn't explain it to me without using bureaucratic
4 jargon. And I had to translate that into something my
5 readers could understand. I hope I did it. But that—
6 it's—there is a problem. There's a bottleneck when a
7 reporter also has to become a decoder. So it's easier
8 when the EPA and the reporter can speak on the same
9 level.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Especially when you don't have
11 a reporter that covers the environment. We don't. And
12 a lot of places don't. [Agreement]
13 NEW SPEAKER: It was almost a full time job for
14 me in West Virginia. It's not a full time job for me up
15 here, so I can't devote the time to it. And if you
16 can't devote the time to it, you can't remain current as
17 well.
18 NEW SPEAKER: You're also competing—for
19 example, in the case of the plant that now is gonna
20 close because of more stringent regulations—you're
21 competing with the short-sided immediate effect of that
22 on all these families, which is, dad no longer will have
23 a job or a family- supporting job, and that translates
24 immediately into their losing their house, losing this
25 standard of living that they're accustomed to. So, what
26 we would need is, uh, ambassadors of yours, is to
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11
1 understand and be able to tell them, here is what the
2 effect on the environment would be if this would not be
3 corrected. And it has to be, we have to be able to
4 convince them, if indeed we're doing our jobs right and
5 your regulation is proper, that there is as strong an
6 impact on the quality of their life and their standard
7 of living if this were allowed to go unchecked. And
8 that's a whole lot of simplifying technical jargon and
9 things that may take years to develop if things were let
10 go as the present standard would be. But that's the,
11 you know, they look for an immediate—you're taking this
12 away from me. Why? Why is it so serious?
13 MODERATOR: Okay. Todd, did you want to add
14 anything to this?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Our readers are
16 environmental professionals, and so they are a fairly
17 sophisticated audience when it comes to environmental
18 stories. The majority of them work for industry as
19 environmental managers, or they work for state and local
20 governments, or they work for consulting firms, and
21 they're mostly focussed on compliance with regulations.
22 So, for us, it's basically what are the regulations, how
23 do you comply, what are the compliance deadlines, what
24 are the strategies for compliance, what kind of guidance
25 do we get from the EPA in order to comply. Things like
26 that. And at a very sophisticated level.
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12
1 MODERATOR: And very regulations-oriented.
2 NEW SPEAKER: And very regulation-oriented,
3 yes.
4 MODERATOR: Okay. Something that Patti said
5 about a hard story versus an environmental story
6 intrigues me. Urn—
7 NEW SPEAKER: No. I mean a hard story versus
8 a feature story. For instance, a backyard habitat isn't
9 gonna get our assigned editor, you know, to call in a
10 crew off to hurry out to something as they would a
11 harder news story. I don't mean a hard news versus
12 environmental. I mean, there's a police story that's
13 hard, and then there's also a story about, you know, the
14 father and son and grandson and, you know, multi-
15 generational police officers that's a feature story
16 about police.
17 MODERATOR: Okay.
18 NEW SPEAKER: That's probably the classic
19 television station approach. KDKA offers a little bit
20 of a twist that I don't know that you'll find anywhere
21 else in a major market, and that is a daily commitment
22 to cover good news in our neighborhood. Uh, a volunteer
23 clean up of North Park, or the lake, or an education
24 program to try to teach kids at a very young age the
25 value of recycling. We have looked for those stories
26 every day cause we're committed to finding a half dozen
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13
1 of them in every day newscast, not necessarily all
2 environmental or education-related, but positive stories
3 in our community in our viewing areas. So certainly,
4 uh—and I don't know whether people contact you for
5 advice on how to conduct a park clean up or riverside,
6 river bank litter pick up, those things—but on a daily
7 basis we're looking to find those stories in our
8 neighborhoods to get on the air to try to spark other
9 people to have the same ownership possession of their
10 environment.
11 NEW SPEAKER: And I think I should define that
12 hard news doesn't necessarily mean bad news. I'm not
13 saying that we're focussing on bad news, but we're
14 focussed on hard news. I mean, we do features but, with
15 the amount of time we have, we do a lot of hard news
16 first.
17 NEW SPEAKER: There's also a staffing
18 commitment each of the organizations has. For example,
19 the newspapers have people who devote themselves to
20 doing environmental news. I don't see anyone from the
21 PG here, but I know they do have an environmental
22 reporter. And you also have to consider that in the
23 electronic newsrooms, you know, the radio and TV
24 newsroom, you probably don't have someone who devotes
25 themselves purely to environmental stories. Uh, we
26 don't have the level of sophistication you might have
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14
1 and, you know, we are the filter between the EPA and the
2 listener. And there was mention of all the jargon
3 that's sometimes in the releases, and someone who is
4 working on three other stories at the same time that has
5 a news release with a lot of, uh, environmental-ese, so
6 to speak [laughter], it's sort of pushed aside where
7 it's sort of, duh, and, you know, it's up to you folks,
8 having someone like Pat Boyle who we can call upon to
9 translate it for us to get the story across. But, you
10 know, we sometimes do write something from a news
11 release, but it has to be understandable.
12 MODERATOR: Okay. Well, let's get into how do
13 you want to get your information, or how do you get your
14 information now?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Well, if there is a spill of some
16 type, you know, if there is a tanker truck that
17 overturns and it dumps 10,000 gallons of something into
18 the river, naturally we will all cover it. And, uh, I'm
19 sure you would be concerned, the state would be
20 concerned, the Fish Commission would be concerned over
21 fishkills. And I'm thinking of the tanker collapse in
22 [inaudible] in Jefferson , yep, a couple of years ago.
23 And that was a very major story for about a week because
24 it affected the water supply. And, you know, that in
25 turn affected literally thousands of people. It turned
26 into a continuing national story monitoring the
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15
1 situation here. And I didn't have the same job I have
2 now. I was at the station, but a different shift, and
3 I'm not sure just how you folks handled it during the
4 day time.
5 MODERATOR: Well, remember I don't work for
6 EPA. [Agreement] Okay. So you are giving me an
7 example of kind of a crisis story that everybody must
8 cover. It's not a feature story. Is that correct?
9 NEW SPEAKER: It could be the lead. The
10 headline story all the way around.
11 MODERATOR: Okay. Alright, let's talk about
12 that type of situation and how you want to get your
13 information, and what's involved in covering that story
14 that would be helpful.
15 NEW SPEAKER: The immediate challenge that I
16 think all of us face is—whose is it? Is it the DEP,
17 who we deal with and we know these people cause they are
18 right here in Pittsburgh and we talk to them on a
19 regular basis. And in most of our businesses we are
20 looking for the talking head or a soundbyte that can
21 address the local issue. So, in a case like that, we
22 struggled with—is the county health department, is it
23 DEP, is it the EPA, is the Coast Guard? Who's in charge
24 here? And we initially got conflicting information on,
25 well, conserve don't conserve. It's past this intake.
26 It doesn't affect the city water, but West Penn water is
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16
1 affected. So I think the need is for your executives to
2 get together and put your heads together and set up a
3 command post and say, we're all on the same page here
4 and here's what we all agreed upon should been done.
5 Because in an instance like that, our initial response
6 is to help you and help get accurate information out.
7 We'll find out later who that guy is and who was
8 responsible for it, but initially we're there to try to
9 prevent any further damage from what's already occurred.
10 But it's always—it appears on the big stories—who's in
11 charge?
12 NEW SPEAKER: You're asking who, how we want to
13 receive what you have to tell us. You should know, since
14 small papers like mine do not necessarily have people
15 who are—devote full time to environmental coverage,
16 it's sort of incumbent upon the EPA to find out ahead of
17 time who the point person is. If you're, if, you know,
18 you're going to be contacting my paper, you might want
19 to contact our paper before something breaks and set up
20 who is point on environmental coverage. Get their
21 mailing address. Get their E-mail address if they have
22 one. Keep it current too. Most of our—many of our
23 news sources often will be working off old lists and
24 just will not change or not realize that there is a turn
25 over on smaller papers, so—
26 MODERATOR: Like you said, you're not holding
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17
1 the same position as you were.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Right. I was the overnight writer
3 back then.
4 NEW SPEAKER: And you know, on my paper I
5 probably would be the point for EPA. And I know EPA
6 does mail me stuff now, but that could change in another
7 year or a month, who knows? And it could land on
8 somebody's desk who knows nada about the entire issue.
9 And then we'd start reorienting again. So it's always
10 good to keep current with those things.
11 MODERATOR: Alright. Here we have this big
12 story, critical about the water supply, and you're
13 telling me that it was difficult to find out who was in
14 charge. Nobody seemed to be speaking? You didn't have
15 someone to go to, to speak with?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Lots of people were speaking,
17 but it took a while for them to be on the same page and
18 to be issuing the same requests. And that's going back
19 10 or 12 years when that happened, so my recollection's
20 a bit fuzzy on that. But ownership of the issue,
21 because there's lots of agencies that all are trying to
22 do the same thing.
23 NEW SPEAKER: I'm afraid of that too, because
24 if you have too few people knowing the issue who may
25 know enough about what's going on, then the message is
26 stifled. I think people who have expertise in a certain
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18
1 field should be allowed to talk instead of wondering if
2 they should be tunneling everything through Public
3 Relations Specialists, who may be very intelligent but
4 may not know what's going on. It just creates another
5 layer that we have to work through to get what we need.
6 NEW SPEAKER: And when you're on a deadline—I
7 had that exact problem. Not with EPA, but I had that
8 problem yesterday. It was five o'clock and I finally
9 got through to someone who faxed me something that, not
10 only I had already read, but so had my lawyer, it
11 seemed. You're not helping me here! You know, by five
12 I couldn't get anybody else. [Agreement]
13 NEW SPEAKER: They thought they had to funnel
14 it through another source.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Right. That would be great if we
16 had people that—we could get right to the people who
17 could tell us what we need to know.
18 NEW SPEAKER: That would be great. I mean, but
19 that's I think the nature or one of the big frustrations
20 of our business. I mean it's part of our job to find
21 the information, and in a situation like the Ashland oil
22 spill—I mean that was, you know—I think its incumbent
23 upon us to go after every possible source. I mean,
24 because of that situation was so unique that I wouldn't-
25 -at some point of the game I would expect, you know,
26 here's the—maybe the chain of command or something and
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19
1 here's the layers or whatever, with more direction, more
2 structure, where we would know who to go to to get what.
3 But I think, like initially, that a situation like that,
4 that's just, you know—you just scramble and talk to
5 whomever you can to get whatever information you need.
6 But the other issue of when its not an emergency
7 situation—when it's just a, here's a story you are
8 working on. It's not a daily. It's something that many
9 been in the works for a while and you have time to
10 develop it and to—you folks may not have that
11 opportunity, or as frequently as some the print media,
12 but just being able to find out who within EPA I need to
13 talk with and getting access to them. I mean, it seems
14 like I will have times when the information that I want
15 to get, it's not always real clear to me that there's a
16 person there that can answer these questions for me.
17 You know, I don't have very—and a lot of times it's—
18 you know, I'm working on a longer term project. Things
19 develop as I'm working on it and things—you know, I'm
20 not always real clear on the direction that I'm going
21 in, and things can evolve and they change. But it seems
22 to me that I'm having a hard time getting to right
23 people that I need to talk to to answer the questions
24 that I need answered.
25 NEW SPEAKER: It would be nice if the EPA were
26 more willing, through its media representatives, like
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20
1 Pat, who does a good job, to say—listen, I'm going to
2 put you in touch with this guy. He's free to talk to
3 you. He has the expertise. There's a reluctance to do
4 that, and if I call on these people directly, they are
5 reluctant to talk to me. And they're going send it
6 right back to Pat, who will go right back to that
7 person, who will then maybe talk to me, or maybe will
8 allow this guy to talk to me, but he'll be on the line
9 too, so—there's too many layers.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Another thing that would be nice,
11 and I only—I lived in Virginia until just a few months
12 ago, so I don't—and I didn't cover the environment.
13 Another reporter covered it there. There have been
14 other agencies that are real easy. I mean, you just—
15 the point person needs to know, you know. Okay, who do
16 I talk to? Oh, you need to talk to Joe. Great. Or you
17 could—the next time, you know, you need to go to Joe
18 first. Then you or Joe can just make sure that the
19 point person knows that you have talked. That would be,
20 I think, ideal.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Even within the EPA—I've been
22 doing this for a little over a year now and I'm getting
23 to know the people that handle the particular areas that
24 I'm interested in. You know, the PR people. And I know
25 if I want to go to water, if it's a water issue, I go to
26 this person. But if I had a list of who handles what—
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21
1 NEW SPEAKER: You're talking media guide.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Media guide, yeah. [Agreement]
3 MODERATOR: I don't understand media guy.
4 NEW SPEAKER: A media guide is like a book
5 where it tells you who—
6 MODERATOR: Oh, media guide. Okay.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Produce a media guide. It
8 wouldn't take much effort. Produce a media guide of who
9 the contacts or who the sources are in the various
10 issues.
11 MODERATOR: Okay.
12 NEW SPEAKER: And hopefully those would be
13 sources that have past clearance, who are quotable, that
14 we don't have to go and set up an interview before. We
15 can just call them directly and save some of that time,
16 which gives us a little more flexibility in meeting our
17 deadlines.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Probably means a policy change at
19 the EPA.
20 MODERATOR: Okay. This is one of the problems
21 you encounter then? It's, um—
22 NEW SPEAKER: It seems like the people that
23 I've spoken with, I mean, that I've gotten to know
24 about, you know, like air quality person, you know, who
25 I've never had a problem with not being able to quote
26 him, you know. So I don't know if that's been a real
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22
1 issue with me. Just getting to them and—
2 NEW SPEAKER: It might be a point of when some
3 other stranger calls us— [Agreement]
4 NEW SPEAKER: When it's the big story.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Because if I did a story on EPA,
6 it would be something that I could take time on like you
7 could take time on. But I'm talking about our
8 assignment desk and the daily reporters. You know, one
9 day it might be Jody Costanza. The next day it will be
10 someone else.
11 NEW SPEAKER: And the smaller papers have the
12 same problem.
13 NEW SPEAKER: We don't how you work internally.
14 If there's an incident, no matter how small in this
15 area, how long does it take to filter to the office in
16 Philadelphia? It's sort of a down side. You know, you
17 say Pittsburgh is a medium-sized city. It's true with
18 other government agencies as well, where they used to
19 have PR people on site here in Pittsburgh, they are now
20 working out of Philadelphia. And we make the initial
21 call, and in the case of some agencies, they don't have
22 a clue as to what is happening here. But, you know,
23 they are 300 miles away. They are further away than
24 Philly, than Charleston, than Buffalo, than Washington.
25 They are further away from us than other cities, yet
26 they are supposedly the local PR person. You're lucky
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23
1 to have Pat who is familiar with this area. We say
2 there is something in—local at Beaver County—he knows
3 where that is. Someone else in Philly may not know
4 exactly where it's located, what the history of that
5 area is, what kind of industries are located there, how
6 far the river is.
7 MODERATOR: Yeah, it would be nice to have an
8 EPA person right here. [Laughter]
9 NEW SPEAKER: For what reason Pat ever leaves,
10 you know, it's like a bank merger. Is the new entity
11 going to care about the community they just left.
12 NEW SPEAKER: DEP—it's not unrealistic and
13 we've come to almost expect, if we have a spill or we an
14 issue in Pine Township, we can call Betsy and she'll
15 meet us up there. And not only do we have the immediate
16 response, but we have her right there a the scene, at
17 the site. And clearly that offers an advantage for them
18 over the EPA. And we're creatures of habit too, like
19 any one else, and if we know we can get a fast, accurate
20 response by calling DEP on essentially the same issue,
21 or we can wait and dial long distance and leave a voice
22 mail or wait for Pat to reach the right person and be
23 briefed on what's going on, you know who we're going to
24 go to.
25 MODERATOR: And it sounds like it's a person
26 that you go to first. Is that correct? Or what—maybe
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24
1 let's explore some other—
2 NEW SPEAKER: You mean on a Web page or
3 something like that? I go to a person.
4 NEW SPEAKER: You mentioned Betsy. We have her
5 number, we have her cell phone number and, urn, Steve
6 mentioned she goes on site. If there's a news
7 conference—uh, for example there was one about a clean
8 up of an underground gasoline tank last week. She was
9 on site.
10 NEW SPEAKER: But I do use Web pages a lot.
11 Yesterday when I was having problems getting to the PR
12 people, I got on that organization's Web site, found out
13 who the Board members were, did a people search on the
14 Internet, found out their phone numbers, and started
15 calling. Like you said, I mean, I just know. I
16 couldn't wait for—(right). So I use Web sites a lot.
17 I mean, I appreciate them.
18 NEW SPEAKER: I'll call first, though. And
19 then I'll go there.
20 NEW SPEAKER: But if you leave a voice-mail and
21 you're waiting, that's the next thing I do is get on the
22 Web site and see what I can find out. That way it helps
23 me ask better questions when I do reach someone.
24 NEW SPEAKER: But use it for background.
25 [Agreement] It's not a primary source of reference yet.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Always, you know, when I call and
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25
1 can't reach somebody, that's the next thing do is try to
2 find something off the Internet. And I use it all the
3 time.
4 MODERATOR: Alright. We've talked about the
5 big story that everybody has to cover. How about other
6 types of environmental stories? We've heard a little
7 bit about that, and I just want to make sure we're
8 covering that. More feature stories? Is that the
9 terminology?
10 NEW SPEAKER: I wouldn't call them features,
11 no. I think they can be enterprise—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Enterprise stories. Like a look
13 at, you know, whatever. Air quality. Water quality.
14 NEW SPEAKER: The Superfund sites in your area.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Just not the spot news that
16 everybody responds to because it's an emergency.
17 Everything else is sort of—those are all things we'll
18 all cover and we'll all see each other. And then there
19 are a lot of stories, especially within environmental,
20 that we'll never see each other and we won't know who's
21 working on what until we see it in the newspaper, or on
22 television, or hear it on the radio.
23 MODERATOR: Okay. Do you need a different type
24 of source at EPA or DEP for one story versus another, or
25 would you go to the same individual?
26 NEW SPEAKER: I think the problem is, and I
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26
1 think we said this already, the sources that we're—the
2 media sources you have right now are capable, but if
3 they have to refer back to other sources it just creates
4 a layer. It would be better if we could go directly to
5 people who knew and were told by their superiors that
6 they may be in contact with the media and they are free
7 to talk about their area of expertise.
8 MODERATOR: Alright. Does anybody want to add
9 anything to that?
10 NEW SPEAKER: Just that I agree strongly.
11 [Laughter]
12 MODERATOR: Okay. How do you judge the
13 reliability or the balance of the information you get?
14 Is that a concern?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Reliability is not a concern at
16 all. I mean, I, you know, take them on face value. Urn,
17 I never thought about it until you brought it up. I
18 mean, you know, I may question the reason for it, and I
19 may look into why is it necessary to—that we monitor
20 particulate matter at 2.5, you know. I may guestion
21 the standard itself that the EPA imposed, or the
22 regulation, and look to experts to say, is this
23 necessary? You know, the removal of underground storage
24 tanks necessary. But as far as what they say, the
25 information they deliver, I deem very reliable. I
26 mean, I don't—I don't really question it.
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27
1 MODERATOR: Okay. It does sound like you do go
2 to other experts sometimes.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yes, I would.
4 NEW SPEAKER: We do as well. We deem the EPA
5 information very reliable because they are experts, but
6 we also have industry experts. Occasionally some
7 stories may be need to be reviewed by the industry
8 folks.
9 MODERATOR: How do you determine which ones
10 need that second layer?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Which ones? Probably the more
12 controversial issues that there's a difference of
13 opinion on. That's when we'll go to our people within
14 our membership—the experts within our membership—to
15 get their side of the story or their opinion.
16 MODERATOR: Anyone else on this balance?
17 NEW SPEAKER: I have no problems with the
18 reliability of the EPA information. Again, it goes back
19 to how they present their information. If they are
20 dealing with a source, a reporter, a member of the media
21 who is not current on standards and processes—Lynne
22 rattled off the particulate matter standard. I could
23 not do that because I can't remain—I don't have the
24 time to remain current. That could be a problem. I
25 think the EPA needs to work harder on how to simplify
26 their message, make their message clear. Again, going
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28
1 back to what I said earlier about jargon and about
2 technical issues.
3 MODERATOR: Okay. Do you have an example of an
4 agency or a topic where it was clear, as a kind of a
5 model, that you might be able to give me an example of?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Urn, where it was clear? When I
7 was in West Virginia I did a story about the CERCLIS
8 list, [inaudible], that was the level below the actual
9 Superfund clean up sites, where they were in our area,
10 what their status was. The EPA did a very good job of
11 explaining the difference between the levels of clean up
12 and how that works. They did not do as good a job when
13 they were talking about air quality standards and the
14 Committees that were working last year to present new
15 plans to bring our regions, both for Pittsburgh and for
16 Philadelphia, into compliance. There were several
17 processes that were involved—several steps—and, again,
18 they fell back on jargon. And they expected me to
19 understand it, and I was just thrown into it, really in
20 the middle.
21 MODERATOR: So, it was jargon. Okay. I'm
22 trying to get a handle on that. Okay. Other thoughts
23 in this area?
24 NEW SPEAKER: You know, I am fortunate that I
25 am able to follow environmental issues and trends and
26 things and that's wonderful, but I also have no
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29
1 background in this. You know, my entire career I've
2 written about things I know nothing about. [Laughter]
3 I know I should devote more time to it, but even so.
4 And while I have that ability to— you know, I'm able to
5 build on that. But still when I go into something, you
6 know, being able to communicate very complicated, very
7 difficult to understand, very important matters—getting
8 it down to the level—and, unlike you, where our readers
9 are not sophisticated, you know, it's a challenge. It's
10 a challenge for me to interpret what they are saying.
11 I mean, I think that's pretty much with the general
12 media, that's one of the big issues that we deal with.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I did a story on organic
14 phosphates, and you know, my big excitement was how many
15 syllables I got in. [Laughter] And we're on
16 television. But I had some really good experiences with
17 EPA because I just said, look, I don't know what your
18 talking about. I mean, I just said, I don't know what's
19 going on. And a lot of times—there are experts in
20 several fields that just—but I had a real good
21 experience. They were very patient explaining things.
22 If I don't understand it, I can't make other people
23 understand it. [Agreement] And it's—and a lot of
24 reporters—it's that you have to just admit, look, I'm
25 dumb about this. I need your help. And I think the EPA
26 has made sure that reporters do understand it, going
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1 back to the jargon thing.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Well, when I was in West Virginia
3 I was also on the phone almost daily to the West
4 Virginia DEP. I knew who the people were, I knew which
5 division to call for the most part, and I was picking up
6 on their jargon, which I immediately discarded. But
7 that was just a matter of time—a matter of time I was
8 able to put into it and learn about some of these
9 things. But that's not the case for most journalists in
10 most parts of this state, or in any other state for that
11 matter. Smaller papers will not be able to devote that
12 much attention. EPA has to keep that in mind. They're
13 not always talking to experts, or even people who are
14 devoting a large amounts of time to it.
15 MODERATOR: Okay. Are you telling me that a
16 lot of the material coining out is directed at experts or
17 people with scientific kind of a—
18 NEW SPEAKER: I think they're more comfortable
19 in dealing with them. I know when I've talked to some
20 EPA officials, and I always hear—Don Hopey was already
21 here talking about this. And they're very comfortable
22 talking to somebody who's familiar with the material,
23 and then they turn around and start talking to me at the
24 same level. They can't change—they can't shift gears,
25 or they do it slowly, and then they start to realize—
26 Okay. He's not at the same level so I'm going to have
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31
1 to rethink and stop and slowly think about it. I'm not
2 sure how you solve that problem. I think that some more
3 attention needs to be devoted to presenting the message
4 in a clear, more understandable fashion.
5 MODERATOR: And certainly you've mentioned the
6 jargon, but maybe there's some other aspects of clearer
7 message that reporters need. Can we look at that for a
8 minute?
9 NEW SPEAKER: We need pictures.
10 MODERATOR: Pictures. Okay. [Laughter,
11 agreement] That's good. What kind of pictures?
12 NEW SPEAKER: Moving. [Laughter]
13 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Can you illustrate the
14 problem? Can we see the problem as opposed to speaking
15 about it in technical scientific terms? And can we talk
16 to the person—instead of on the phone—on camera, and
17 have him ideally be in front of the problem and
18 illustrate for us just what's happening here? Why we
19 should all be concerned, why it's a danger, and
20 therefore why the Federal government needs it so it sets
21 up these otherwise archaic regulations that take away
22 the jobs from our families and our people. So again,
23 we're certainly no great brain trust, but if we, after
24 giving that significant attention and our very best
25 efforts in deciphering that and analyzing it, if we
26 don't get it—the term broadcasting means we are casting
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1 that out to broad masses, who don't stand a chance,
2 then, of grasping the point that you are trying to
3 convey, with good reason. We're affording you that
4 there is good reason. And you're not trying to snow us,
5 but help us to do that.
6 NEW SPEAKER: And if you're pitching a story,
7 you have to realize that you are one of dozens of people
8 on any given day trying to pitch a story to us. We have
9 to know up front what is the impact, why is this
10 important to our audience, why should we care. And if
11 it's written in, uh, agency-ese, we sort of take a look
12 at it, and—I don't understand what this means—and it
13 goes into the stack to be looked at later.
14 MODERATOR: Okay. Would that be fax, or E-mail
15 or—how do you get that?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Urn, we are not E-mail savvy. I
17 am at home, but at the station we rely on good old AP
18 and the fax machine. And also PR news wire.
19 MODERATOR: Okay. I see Steve shaking his head
20 that—anybody on these lists or something that might get
21 you—
22 NEW SPEAKER: I use E-mail a lot.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Do they send you E-mail, because
24 I'm not on any EPA E-mail list.
25 NEW SPEAKER: No. I'm not on EPA.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Is there an EPA E-mail list?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: But I've gotten people pitching
2 stories by E-mail, and I've also been on [inaudible]
3 subscribes to some, I'm trying to think of which ones.
4 Because when I first started it was—for some reason,
5 there were so many letters to my E-mail address and it
6 blocked up my E-mail. Every time I got all those
7 government, all those government ones.
8 NEW SPEAKER: That's a problem. But if there
9 is an EPA E-mail list for the media, I wouldn't mind
10 being on it.
11 NEW SPEAKER: And another thing too, that EPA
12 did, and I noticed just because I think I got on the
13 list for the letters, you know, to come to this—my news
14 director got one and I got one. And I think it was
15 because I had talked to the EPA about a story that I
16 wanted to do, and they not only sent it to my news
17 director, but sent one to me. And I think that's a
18 really good idea for the EPA to kind of see who is it
19 that is interested in the education or in them sending
20 environmental stories, because the desk gets a million
21 of them. They're generalists. And if you can find out
22 who and what news room is sort of geared and likes the
23 environmental stories and enjoys doing that, and they
24 also get the fax, or the E-mail, or the letter. If
25 that's the goal of the EPA, there's a much better chance
26 of getting some of the attention, because the reporters
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34
1 or producers have fewer things to sift through than the
2 assignment desk. I mean, they get incredible amounts.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, that would be true too—the
4 Bureaus, all of the Bureau reporters. A story that the
5 Pittsburgh desk may not quite be able to get their arms
6 around would be a very significant story for the
7 Westmoreland County Bureau or the Butler County Bureau,
8 which has a smaller world, and therefore, a smaller
9 story still carries a lot more impact there.
10 MODERATOR: Okay. So you're saying EPA needs
11 to find who would be interested in a given organization?
12 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, but I think in some—in a
13 lot of ways—I mean, you're going to already know,
14 because the reporters would have contacted. But
15 especially in television—I mean, I know that you work
16 with daily reports—we'll work on a story. If by noon
17 it's not working out, you know, they're onto something
18 else. They've got to get something on the air every
19 single day— sometimes two, sometimes three thing. So
20 it might be harder to figure out who in television
21 [inaudible]. But it would be a good thing—I think you
22 would have a much better chance of having someone else
23 besides you pitch the story in the morning meeting.
24 When a reporter comes in and says—you know, I think
25 this would really be good if in my spare time I made a
26 couple of calls, and I think its a story we could turn
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1 today.
2 NEW SPEAKER: And that's a great disadvantage
3 that Pat is in Philadelphia and what—Betsy's out here
4 at DEP, because she has not only the person's name to
5 mail to, but the phone number, and is on a first name
6 basis, and calls up and says—I think you really want to
7 be here for this. They're going to cap the well out at
8 [inaudible] Township here the kid was killed—huffing.
9 So there's an ongoing daily personal relationship there
10 that saves both of us a lot of time—a lot of wasted
11 time.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Betsy has help too, by the way.
13 She's not alone. She has Rita.
14 MODERATOR: Did I hear you correctly that it
15 needs to go, not just to you, but to your boss?
16 NEW SPEAKER: No. When we got the letter for
17 this meeting—and I'm the Investigative Producer. I
18 don't cover the environment. I cover investigating
19 things. But I had called the EPA about something else,
20 so I ended up also getting a letter, which to me is
21 saying that that's what they are trying to do. They are
22 trying to find out who's interested in the environmental
23 things. So what I'm suggesting might be something they
24 are already doing, but you said you would like to get on
25 a list. I mean, I think that, on one hand, sure, it's
26 our job. You know, we gather the news. It's our job to
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1 contact people we're interested in. But you have to
2 understand we've got so many other competing interests
3 that if EPA's goal is to try to get in the news more—
4 get the information out to people—then what they did by
5 sending me the letter too, I think is a real smart
6 thing. Find out whose interested in the environment and
7 you have a much better chance, I think, than sending it
8 to our assignment desk or just coming out with a name.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. At the risk of repeating
10 something though, help me find out—if EPA has some
11 something it wants to tell you about the Pittsburgh area
12 that you may not know about already, how should it get
13 the information to you? What's the best ways?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Fax.
15 MODERATOR: Fax?
16 NEW SPEAKER: With someone's name on it.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Exactly.
18 NEW SPEAKER: One page
19 NEW SPEAKER: Or E-mail or, I mean, I like it
20 in E-mails.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Even if we're contacted in the
22 news room, I'd just do it both ways.
23 MODERATOR: Fax. E-mail. Okay. And maybe
24 pick up the phone if they know who the right person is.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Or at least have a contact
2 6 number.
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37
1 NEW SPEAKER: Our fax machine, which is
2 probably like all of yours, never stops. We get a
3 couple hundred a day, and we have interns near there,
4 and we've had significant stories that we've missed
5 because it got put in a stack that high by an intern.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Or the machine runs out of paper.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Or you get a fax with 32 pages,
8 which has been known to happen.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. So no 32 pages. You send
10 one page.
11 NEW SPEAKER: That could be a fifteen second
12 phone call. Let me give you a heads-up. We got a fax
13 coming over I think you're going to want. It's about
14 an event in Butler County tomorrow at ten o'clock. Give
15 me a call if you're interested.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Those are the ones, though, I
17 would hate to get. I would hate to get a heads-up on
18 fax calls regularly. [Agreement] But if it was
19 something significant, yeah, you're right. Because
20 there is that risk of, you know, it slipping behind
21 because there's already forty pages of fax paper.
22 [Agreement] But if it was a significant announcement,
23 yeah, that would be wonderful to get a heads-up call.
24 And in my case, because I'm not in the main office. I'm
25 in a Bureau. I like the fact that—urn—I don't like the
26 fact that they still have the wrong number for me
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38
1 because I was moved in this past year, and so it goes to
2 our Station Square Office, and then they'll fax it out
3 to me, which is fine. But really, I like the idea that
4 they're getting it because if I'm on vacation for a week
5 or if I'm out of the office or something for, you know,
6 research or something, I like that at least someone else
7 has the opportunity to see this fax. But I would like
8 to get it straight, too. I mean, it's just a matter of
9 clerical—you know, making a change on the media list.
10 NEW SPEAKER: It is important to track the
11 message out through a couple different of different
12 facets. I know if you try to E-mail us, all our E-mail
13 is routed through our Corporate Office in Levittown, so
14 it's a little slower getting to us than maybe other
15 people.
16 NEW SPEAKER: I apologize, but I have to go.
17 MODERATOR: Thank you very much.
18 NEW SPEAKER: At least I got to come for a
19 while.
20 MODERATOR: If you think of anything, we'll
21 catch up with you later. We'll call you. [Laughter]
22 NEW SPEAKER: Thanks a lot.
23 MODERATOR: Thank you. Okay. The EPA
24 administers 31 major data bases, 123 major Web pages,
25 and over 50 hotlines. They have libraries and public
26 information centers in its headquarters and in regional
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39
1 offices, and they have public distribution centers. How
2 familiar are you with the Agency's various sites of
3 information dispersal and have you used any of them?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Not to my knowledge. That's the
5 first.
6 NEW SPEAKER: 50 hotlines?
7 MODERATOR: 50 hotlines.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Not at all.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Marginally.
10 MODERATOR: Can you remember any one you've
11 used?
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I know there are databases,
13 some of them on line. Unfortunately, because of, I
14 believe, a fire wall internally, it won't let me access
15 them from our office.
16 MODERATOR: Oh wow.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Which is amazing to me. And my
18 understanding is, from our computer expert, is that for
19 organizations—businesses that demand to know where it's
20 coming from, like identify—that because we don't want
21 them to know, there are certain sites—databases—and it
22 just seems to be the databases, because I can do it from
23 other places, that I can't get to. Can't get to. Can't
24 get there from here. But I have used, off site, I have
25 used some of their databases. And that's actually one
26 of the questions that I have, uh, if they are available
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40
1 on disks? Something that we are starting to get into is
2 computer assisted reporting, and my colleague, who's
3 kind of spearheading this effort, inquired—asked me to
4 inquire if databases are available on disks so that we
5 can manipulate data and look at it differently than
6 perhaps than how it's already available. So that was—
7 they have databases available, do you know?
8 MODERATOR: Some of them are, and we'll let
9 you talk with Judy about the specifics because I think
10 she can help you with that.
11 NEW SPEAKER: What were the other services?
12 Could you run down that list?
13 MODERATOR: 31 major environmental databases,
14 123 major Web pages, and 50 hotlines.
15 NEW SPEAKER: When you say 123 major Web pages,
16 what do you mean? I mean, I know the EPA Web site.
17 MODERATOR: The Web site taking you to
18 different other—what they consider major addresses,
19 sort of like the next layer.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Within EPA?
21 MODERATOR: Within that EPA Web site
22 NEW SPEAKER: I'm very familiar with the EPA
23 Web site. Urn, a problem I have with it is, probably a
24 problem I have with a lot of Web sites, is their search
25 engine. I'll look for something and it doesn't seem
26 like, you know, it's just that I'm getting a bunch of
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41
1 stuff. It seems like it's not as targeted maybe, or
2 something. You know? I'm thinking there's got to be a
3 better—it's—the information I'm requesting and the
4 information that I'm getting, similar to what you would
5 get generally on other Web sites, but it just seems like
6 the EPA could be more defined in their search engine on
7 their Web site.
8 MODERATOR: Okay. Anyone else had experience
9 with the EPA Web site?
10 NEW SPEAKER: We're a major user of the Web
11 site. We get a lot of our information from the EPA Web
12 site. It's just so vast. There's so much information
13 there. I think that's part of the problem finding
14 specific information you want. There's so much.
15 NEW SPEAKER: I visit the EPA Web site. Their
16 [inaudible] list is extensive.
17 NEW SPEAKER: That's another reason for a media
18 guide. We would know about these various technicals.
19 MODERATOR: Okay. What do you do when you
20 can't find it and you know it's got to be in there?
21 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I'm trying to think.
22 There's a particular story I was just working on—urn—
23 what was it? And I knew it had to be there— Oh, it was
24 the states. It was like a listing of the states and
25 their—urn—was it their ozone? It was like the ozone—
26 uh—it's escaping me now. I'm thinking this has to be
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42
1 here, this has be here. I was looking at an out dated
2 one. It was like 1993 data that I had. Thinking there
3 has to be—you know, this was hard copy that was
4 distributed at a—no it was at a—I can't remember. Was
5 it a Health Department meeting? I can't remember but—
6 NEW SPEAKER: Are you talking about ozone
7 attainment areas?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. It was for the new
9 standards that are coining out, and there was a meeting—
10 Yeah, you guys hosted that. Didn't you host that?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we were part of the—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. And one of the handouts
13 had—uh—like the worst—urn, the states with their
14 various levels, and it was 1993 data and I wanted, for
15 the story that was I writing, I wanted the most current.
16 And I'm thinking—well, it has to be on their Web site.
17 And I couldn't find it, so I called the air quality PR
18 person and he couldn't find it, or he gave me another
19 address and I couldn't—it wasn't there—not the
20 information I wanted. Called him back, and ultimately
21 he—it was very late in the day. It was another one of
22 those—here's Lynne Glover on the phone at 5 o'clock,
23 and she wants this now. And, you know, unfortunately he
24 couldn't get it, and so we had to run 1993 data—a chart
25 from five years ago that was— You know, I'm thinking—
26 I know that information is there somewhere, and I tried
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43
1 in vain. And the PR person made calls, but was
2 unsuccessful.
3 MODERATOR: Okay. So you didn't find it on the
4 Web. You picked up the phone to call a contact—a usual
5 contact. [Agreement] Alright. As you referred to,
6 there's different EPA's. There's the national, the
7 Federal EPA, there's Region III in Philadelphia. You
8 have your state DEP's or whatever the particular
9 nomenclature is in a given state. How do you know where
10 to go for a given story?
11 NEW SPEAKER: We don't.
12 NEW SPEAKER: We fire a shot gun [Laughter]
13 and we'll call them all. We'll call the County Health
14 Department, the Coast Guard, the EPA, the DEP.
15 MODERATOR: The usual suspects. [Laughter]
16 NEW SPEAKER: Then we wait to see, given our
17 dead line, who's going to give us what we need within
18 the parameters of how quickly we need it and, uh we're
19 on the—
20 [ TAPE FLIP ]
21 What's realistic? Can you give us someone? Can you
22 give us the information? If not I'm going somewhere
23 else.
24 NEW SPEAKER: And we're on continuously, and if
25 there's something—especially something major—
26 happening, we want someone now. And if we can get
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44
1 someone on the phone, they'll be the first ones to go
2 on, and because they're first, odds are it will turn
3 into their story. They'll be the ones we'll continue
4 going back to for the updates.
5 NEW SPEAKER: We understand, one [inaudible].
6 If it's an issue that crosses state lines, the EPA will
7 be involved. If it's something that—we're going to
8 clean up the dump in Pennsylvania, chances are the I'll
9 go to the DEP first.
10 NEW SPEAKER: And we're also sort of in the
11 nether regions of Region III. If I'm correct, West
12 Virginia is a different region?
13 MODERATOR: I think so.
14 NEW SPEAKER: They were—I used to call
15 Philadelphia when I was in Morgantown. Maybe that's
16 changed.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there is someone, and maybe
18 it's for a particular issue, but there is someone at
19 Wheeling I've called upon a couple of times. And I
20 can't think of his name, but he had a great voice.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Ray George?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. Ray George.
23 NEW SPEAKER: We're a little bit different in
24 that most of our coverage is national or international
25 in scope. So we generally work with the Federal EPA
26 unless it's a specific regional issue. Then we'll deal
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1 with the various EPA regions.
2 MODERATOR: Okay. And by that, is that a
3 contact you have in those—?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of—
5 I don't really have as many problems getting information
6 because a lot of the EPA staff members are actually
7 members of our association. So we have a lot of in-
8 roads, and we're in constant E-mail contact with all of
9 the EPA experts.
10 MODERATOR: How come he's different?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we're not focussing on
12 daily news as much these folks are here. Our—
13 NEW SPEAKER: And you're probably not viewed
14 with the same animosity as being a full-fledged member
15 of the news media. [Agreement] So I think that you're
16 one of them and they're one of you, so there's not that
17 skepticism.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Can I ask you a question, Todd?
19 What do you do specifically?
20 NEW SPEAKER: We're an association made up of
21 environmental professionals and we do education,
22 outreach, and professional development for the members.
23 So we help EPA get out the news about regulations and
24 how to comply, and we host a lot of forums, meetings,
25 conferences where EPA and the industry folks and anybody
26 else that is interested come together and talk about the
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46
1 issues. So we're an information dissemination
2 organization, technical exchange of information, a forum
3 for networking and education.
4 MODERATOR: Do your members tend to believe you
5 because you're their source of the information, although
6 the ultimate source is EPA? Is it important that it has
7 come through your group?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Where we gain our credibility is
9 that we're unbiased. We're an open forum where we get
10 information from EPA. We have all the stakeholders
11 involved in our association, so we present all
12 viewpoints—not only EPA's viewpoint, but the industry
13 viewpoint. And they're often different and clashing. We
14 also—the environmental groups come in. So we're this
15 open forum where all the viewpoints are expressed—in
16 our publications, at our meetings, etcetera. So we gain
17 our credibility by not taking any sides, but just
18 factually portraying all the information from all the
19 different sides.
20 MODERATOR: Okay.
21 NEW SPEAKER: And I'm sure our deadlines only
22 add to the aggravation of our call, whereas Todd's
23 probably dealing with less the crisis story, and more so
24 because you have more routine business with them.
25 There's not as much apprehension in responding to a
26 request from Todd.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Right. We're working on monthly
2 publications, essentially.
3 NEW SPEAKER: And ours are—they're artificial
4 to the extent that, yeah, it may take an hour to
5 accumulate that information even with the best of
6 intentions, but our deadline is our deadline and we've
7 got to get the most accurate information out there by
8 the next newscast.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. I heard the 5 o'clock
10 mentioned a couple of times. Do you have a person you
11 can call after 5 o'clock at EPA for stories, or is this
12 just typical of a constriction you have to work with
13 looking for anybody?
14 NEW SPEAKER: We have a reporter on duty until
15 eleven, but you have to understand this. It may not be
16 a reporter who is familiar with the issue. I mean, I
17 can't speak for the broadcast, but I know at least at
18 our paper, after 5 p.m. the emphasis shifts more towards
19 breaking news and production of the paper. Putting the
20 pages together.
21 MODERATOR: Coming at it from the standpoint
22 of, if the people you call at EPA go home at 5 o'clock.
23 NEW SPEAKER: No. It would be nice, it would
24 be wonderful, to have—
25 NEW SPEAKER: Phone numbers, pagers—
26 NEW SPEAKER: Pagers, beepers, any way to get
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1 in contact with these people after five. I remember
2 there was a story about a—well, it was really a DEP
3 issue about a barge that got punctured. This was just
4 a couple months ago—an oil spill on the river. And I
5 learned about it, I think, on PXI watching their 5
6 o'clock broadcast. And it's like—okay, I've got a
7 story to write before I go home. Okay. You know, it's
8 like—who can I call now? I mean, fortunately we do
9 know DEP after hours numbers and other sources, but
10 from—it would be wonderful to have EPA—be able to
11 contact them after five, and I currently can't right
12 now.
13 NEW SPEAKER: There's a problem with [West
14 Boiling] County today. They have lines down. There is
15 a number you can reach an after hours media spokesperson
16 who will tell you exactly how many lines are down, how
17 many people are without power, how many crews they have
18 going to— They'll—whatever you need, they'll find it
19 out for you. I see no reason why somebody couldn't be
20 on duty, on call, after hours for the DEP, at least
21 until eleven or something.
22 NEW SPEAKER: There are major organizations—
23 I'm thinking of US Airways—where after hours or on
24 weekends they always have somebody on call. If you call
25 their generic number, they'll let you know who the on
26 call person is and how to get through to them.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Conrail too.
2 NEW SPEAKER: And also, Conrail is another
3 example of someone who talks about something locally
4 from Philadelphia, which I—
5 NEW SPEAKER: But at least you can reach them
6 on weekends or after hours. [Agreement] They have a
7 method for doing it.
8 NEW SPEAKER: But also in the course of us
9 contacting the usual suspects from time to time,
10 internally we have home numbers, and Pat may get a
11 surprise call some weekend asking about something in
12 this area because—
13 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, you have his number?
14 [Laughter]
15 NEW SPEAKER: I think we do, I'm not sure.
16 [Laughter] But they've come in useful at times. And
17 also, there's a matter of weekend accessibility where
18 something might happen over a weekend that you might
19 want to cover, or the TV people may want to send a crew
20 out, or we just might want to speak to on the phone.
21 Urn, so it is important to have the after hours numbers.
22 If we call at 6 o'clock on Friday, Monday morning is too
23 late to get back to us.
24 MODERATOR: Okay. That's what it sounds like.
25 Okay. Moving on, a lot of people have told us they
26 don't know what information EPA has and, for instance,
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50
1 it is an impressive thing. You know, 123 Web pages and
2 so forth. And they've told us it would help to
3 advertise what the agency has in terms of information
4 inventory. Would that be helpful to you? If so, in
5 what way would you want to get that kind of information?
6 Like what is available, who is available?
7 NEW SPEAKER: That would be absolutely helpful.
8 And it doesn't have to be fancy. You know, it's like—
9 NEW SPEAKER: Staple the pages together.
10 [Agreement, laughter]
11 NEW SPEAKER: And it doesn't have to be slick,
12 you know, just useful. Just good information in any
13 kind of format. I mean, it's like—I'll take whatever
14 you've got. But, yeah, it would be wonderful to know
15 exactly what's—exactly what they have. I mean, I often
16 feel like—not foolish, but it's like—well, do you have
17 this? I'm looking for this. And I have no idea, you
18 know, if it's in the realm of possibility.
19 MODERATOR: Okay. Information. Where to go,
20 what databases there are, maybe what the Web site is,
21 and who to call about it. Okay.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Is it just me, or is there a
23 problem with putting phone numbers on a Web page?
24 Sometimes I want to talk to a person or a specific
25 department, and I'm hoping for a phone contact on the
26 Web page and I can never find one.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I know. That's a problem, I
2 think, across the board.
3 NEW SPEAKER: No, but it's the Web, so you have
4 E-mail listings.
5 NEW SPEAKER: I know. It's like—but no! I
6 want a phone number! Just put a phone number on it!
7 NEW SPEAKER: It's like—we're supposed to be
8 interactive media, you know. Come on!
9 MODERATOR: Okay. I think that's a good point.
10 You've got a Web page, but also you want a follow up
11 number. [Agreement]
12 NEW SPEAKER: It definitely doesn't exist.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Obviously, we would like to know
14 who zeroes on authority. Who's uh, you know, water,
15 etcetera. But is there a jurisdiction whereby we have
16 a person's name who's responsible for Northwestern
17 Pennsylvania, who's, uh, you know, Butler County—as the
18 DEP has, they break up the state into chunks.
19 MODERATOR: Okay. So for a given topic you
20 want to know who to call for what geographic area. In
21 addition, then?
22 NEW SPEAKER: And I don't know if that exists.
23 Maybe it doesn't because you're so big.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Where are their offices? Is
25 there one in Butler? Is there one in Erie? Or do you
26 just have a regional office in here Pittsburgh?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Can we vote for one in
2 Pittsburgh?
3 MODERATOR: Vote for one? [Laughter]
4 NEW SPEAKER: We're looking for a network too,
5 because there may be—maybe Pat's stuck in Philadelphia,
6 or whoever he turns us on to with an ozone question, and
7 that person is stuck, but they say—you know what? We've
8 been talking to the Penn State Agricultural Extension
9 Office, and there's a really good source here, you know,
10 Assistant Professor Joe Smith. Here's his number. I've
11 talked to him. He may be able to give you what you
12 need.
13 MODERATOR: How do we put that in the media
14 guide?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Under geographical jurisdiction.
16 NEW SPEAKER: I'm not sure what you mean. Like
17 by—other—having them refer referrals?
18 NEW SPEAKER: Referrals. Yeah, see we're not
19 just looking for the information. We're looking for who
20 can we put on TV. Whose face can we get in front of the
21 camera. And if, naturally, your office is no longer in
22 Pittsburgh, then we can't chopper out to Philadelphia
23 and get that back in time for our newscast. But do you
24 know of someone else who's a member of Todd's
25 organization who formally worked with the EPA, has
26 subcontracted for the EPA, knows the issue, can address
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1 the issue, and is within our reach?
2 NEW SPEAKER: But I don't think I would expect
3 to find that in a media guide or such a thing. I would—
4 I mean if— You know, a telephone conversation where
5 it's like—well, yeah, here's someone that you might
6 want to talk to.
7 NEW SPEAKER: But if there is someone who
8 covers Butler County, he's going to know and have,
9 through the course of his business, is going to talk to
10 people up there. And based on whatever the individual
11 scope of that problem is, he may have someone that he
12 knows up there, being the State Health Department or
13 someone else who works with him.
14 NEW SPEAKER: I doubt it works that way, but
15 I'm sure there are consultants the EPA works with.
16 Independent firms, and they can be listed.
17 MODERATOR: Okay, so you're saying that you
18 would start using this, and Lynne is saying—okay, in
19 the course of making calls you're going to get the
20 people you could interview and have on the news tonight.
21 But you're telling me that maybe we can have some of
22 those people listed in here as, "here are people who
23 have spoken on this topic' or 'here's some people in the
24 State University.'
25 NEW SPEAKER: Not necessarily in your guide,
26 but once we've established a rapport with that person,
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1 they can then tell us. (Okay.) The information is
2 always going to be helpful, but your giving me all the
3 information I need still is not enough for a TV story.
4 We need to have a local expert on camera who brings the
5 credibility of their perspectives that our viewer sees.
6 Not that they don't trust us.
7 MODERATOR: And the media guide is going to
8 help you find that person by giving you the right
9 contact, because contact sounds like it's everything, or
10 very important.
11 NEW SPEAKER: And the speed with which we can
12 access them. How we can get a hold of them at night?
13 What time what time was the Ashland oil spill—or the
14 Bloomfield train derailment was late at night, right, on
15 a weekend?
16 NEW SPEAKER: That was on a Saturday.
17 NEW SPEAKER: They're always. [Laughter]
18 MODERATOR: Okay. The media guide is going to
19 have night and weekend contacts in addition to the
20 normal contacts. Okay. This is great. If we think of
21 anything else we'll pop it on here.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, let us know what you do in
23 the guide. Just—this is what EPA is, this is what you
24 make—
25 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. A mission statement.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Or—you may wish to contact—
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1 MODERATOR: Federal EPA, Region III does this,
2 here's how they're related.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Air, water, soil—
4 NEW SPEAKER: And the different offices. What
5 each different office does.
6 MODERATOR: Okay—
7 NEW SPEAKER: Air office, water office—
8 MODERATOR: Okay. Program offices, I think
9 they're called.
10 NEW SPEAKER: You might also want to offer some
11 contact person for the—well, independent for the
12 papers and stations when—that we can contact when there
13 is a change in staff. If there is a new environmental
14 reporter or there's a new environmental producer, we
15 could call you and say—listen, update our mailing list,
16 your mailing list to include this person, and that
17 person we're talking to would have immediate access to
18 the list.
19 MODERATOR: So you're saying there should be
20 somebody that does the liaison with the media?
21 NEW SPEAKER: Well, yeah. I think all of us
22 have had experiences with outdated lists. I mean, if we
23 knew we were talking to somebody who could change that
24 mailing list instantaneously after the call, that would
25 be great.
26 MODERATOR: Alright. This is terrific.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Just a general brochure, or a
2 fact sheet, or something that lists the different
3 resources that you said were available—the Web sites,
4 the hotlines—that we can share with our members—that
5 we can take to a conference or work shop and hand out,
6 I think would help with the outreach activity.
7 MODERATOR: In addition to the big guide you
8 want a mini guide?
9 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there's a pull out. We
10 have, on a wall next to our assignment editor's chair,
11 a cork wall that has West Penn Power's—a face, a name,
12 a home phone number, and their jurisdiction, and for all
13 the utilities, and all the police departments, and all
14 the emergency services. And that gives us, you know, on
15 a 5x7 card, a number that we can grab, and that is
16 probably more used then the media guide, out of
17 laziness, perhaps, on part of some people. Well, that
18 number is right here, let me call them instead of
19 looking it up in the guide who would be the exact best
20 person here. That gives us the general contact numbers.
21 MODERATOR: You said 5x7? So there are like,
22 a bunch of cards with people?
23 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Right.
24 MODERATOR: Okay. Cards.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Or stickers. Some people send
26 stickers out, even thought we just pin them up.
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1 Thinking Duquesne Light, they've always done it. And
2 I'm not suggesting bright colors, but it's always a
3 color that stands out, so you look at the wall and you
4 immediately know where it is.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Or Rolodex cards.
6 MODERATOR: So we've got a media guide plus
7 we've got all these auxiliaries that also are short-hand
8 ways of finding the right folks or the right
9 information. Okay. This is great.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Something that may not be related
11 to the media guide—this may be not a good idea but I'll
12 throw it out anyway. Since EPA no longer has a office
13 in Pittsburgh, but since EPA still has a lot of invested
14 interest in Pittsburgh, and since it's still a rather
15 important city in the country even though we've lost
16 some population, I wonder if it might not be worth
17 everyone's effort if the EPA arranged for either a
18 monthly conference call or have a Pittsburgh [inaudible]
19 swing through our region, just to update media on issues
20 ongoing in the area. Almost like a monthly press
21 conference, but not guite. Just a casual get-together.
22 It would be like a conference call or a new person swing
23 through the area or meeting.
24 NEW SPEAKER: I don't—I wonder, yeah. I mean,
25 I think something like that would be beneficial, it
26 would behoove us since—you, know to find out what's
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1 going on in the future. I think, ah—
2 NEW SPEAKER: Right. Because we can't always—
3 we can't always—well, we could, but we don't always hit
4 the Web site or whatever, but if we knew there was this
5 chance monthly to touch bases with the EPA, that might
6 help quite a bit. And I don't think it would cost very
7 much either. At least the conference call wouldn't.
8 NEW SPEAKER: This definitely falls into Todd's
9 area, but I'm sure the EPA works with a lot of industry
10 in this area, not because they have big smoke stacks and
11 spewing things up, but because they're working on
12 devices to clean the environment. Supposedly, if I'm
13 correct, that's one of the major sectors of
14 manufacturing in this area now. And there have been a
15 lot of trade missions on the state level, going to other
16 countries. There's one coming up later this month to
17 Mexico, and environmental firms are almost always
18 involved. There are a lot of small ones in this area,
19 and what's the EPA's involvement with those companies?
20 Give us story ideas along that line.
21 NEW SPEAKER: We love the story ideas.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Tip sheets. Just one-pagers.
23 MODERATOR: Let me just ask this gentleman to
24 introduce himself.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Hi. Sorry I'm late. Name's Don
26 Hopey. I work for the Post-Gazette.
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1 MODERATOR: Okay. Do you want to make a little
2 name tag for us and fill out the orange sheet before you
3 go and—
4 NEW SPEAKER: Are you video taping this?
5 MODERATOR: We are video taping, yes. And let
6 me ask you, is it Don you said?
7 NEW SPEAKER: It is.
8 MODERATOR: Don. If you want to tell Don what
9 we've been doing for the next three minutes, I will step
10 back and talk to the people who are watching us and ask
11 if they have any burning questions of something that I
12 need to follow up, because we have one-half hour left
13 and I want to make sure it's productive. And I'll be
14 right back. And help yourself or take a rest room
15 break.
16 [ BREAK ]
17 MODERATOR: Okay. Thank you for carrying on
18 here while I checked with the folks. One of the things
19 they'd like us to revisit a little bit is the accuracy
20 issue, and the example is the oil spill that you brought
21 up. Ashland oil spill, was that? Who do you believe if
22 you have conflicting information? How do you sort it
23 out? If only one of the agencies got back to you, how
24 do you—can you tell me a little bit more about this?
25 Who are you going to believe, or how many people are you
26 going to call?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: There's an excellent tool,
2 resource that you can look at that has—there was a post
3 mortem held at the Green Tree Marriott by PIMA, and they
4 had all of the players involved, and it probably went
5 for three or four days. And they had it—the script was
6 reprinted, highlights from each of the participants.
7 And it was a really effective dissection, a chance for
8 us to vent our frustration, and for them to hear and
9 incorporate the lessons learned into their response
10 plan. Comey, John Comey put that together, and if you
11 have not seen that, I was really impressed at the
12 diligence they paid to it and how effective the
13 publication was that came out of that. But that—and I
14 honestly can't recall having—I think that was '88 when
15 that happened. It's been a long time. But until that
16 command post was set up and there was some communication
17 between all of those people, it seemed everyone was
18 afraid to really talk, and they would tell us something
19 without attribution but on the record, that we were a
20 little reluctant to go with. Like— what's the hold up?
21 Shouldn't there be a clear direction, because people
22 want to know—should I conserve? Can I drink that? It
23 looks clean. Or—and then of course, you know, after it
24 comes out there's that skepticism that it smells a
25 little funny or it tastes—it looks a little funny. So
26 there was just a lack of someone taking charge of it.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: But I think you would, urn—I
2 think you would, you know, if you're under deadline and
3 you need to get whatever the message is out, and you are
4 getting conflicting reports, you would say you're
5 getting conflicting reports. You'd say—this agency
6 says this, that agency that, and you would address it
7 that way. I mean, if you can't get the agreement, then
8 you would just so note that, and—
9 NEW SPEAKER: No greater way to lose the
10 source, though, right? Or to have that one clam up by
11 saying—well, you know what? I just got the—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, you go back to them and
13 they'll say—you know, well, this is what we're saying,
14 and—
15 NEW SPEAKER: There seem to be regular news
16 conferences out there on a pretty much daily basis or
17 even twice a day, as I recall. And we always had people
18 out at the scene that were attending those. And those
19 I think were the things that really kind of drove the
20 story and where everybody got all the hard stuff, and
21 the other stuff that—where you're trying push the
22 envelope a little bit on your own from your own sources,
23 and then you're going with wrong sources. But I think
24 they did a fairly good job, especially after the first
25 couple of days, of getting people together on a regular
26 basis and saying this is what we know—
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1 NEW SPEAKER: It was those first couple of days
2 that drove us all nuts. That was also unique in the
3 sense that you had a corporate CEO who came around and
4 visited, went to the Post-Gazette, came into our
5 station. Instead of the PR person holding the media at
6 bay, he was extremely accessible, and that was a real
7 surprise—a very pleasant experience as opposed to
8 typically what we have.
9 NEW SPEAKER: I think he got canned shortly
10 thereafter. [Laughter]
11 MODERATOR: Is there anything about the formula
12 of an environmental story that says if you make a
13 statement here, you have to have another scientific
14 source that agrees or disagrees, or do you have to have
15 more than one source?
16 NEW SPEAKER: That's just called getting both
17 sides of the story.
18 NEW SPEAKER: That's called good journalism.
19 NEW SPEAKER: That's--that's J-101.
20 NEW SPEAKER: We don't seek a private industry
21 person to try to refute you. We afford you that
22 credibility. The other side we get are the people who
23 live there and now have to live without water, or their
24 husband is losing his job that he's had at the mill for
25 twenty years. But we, as a matter of policy, never
26 challenge your—you know, if you guys say it we trust
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1 that you're giving us the faith.
2 MODERATOR: By "you guys,' you mean EPA? Okay.
3 NEW SPEAKER: But if there is controversy in a
4 particular area, subject, that's regulation,
5 enforcement, then yeah, we should go to other sources to
6 get a different perspective on the issue.
7 NEW SPEAKER: In other words, we're not calling
8 you liars, but we do believe that there are other people
9 who will not agree with you, and if they can offer
10 something new, they should be in the story too.
11 MODERATOR: Okay.
12 NEW SPEAKER: They quite often come out of the
13 wood work. About a year ago we had a debate over which
14 type of low emission gasoline we'd be using during the
15 summer months. There was RFC, and then the Reid Vapor
16 (RVP), and one was supposedly cleaner than the other,
17 yet there were all these stories going around that this
18 gasoline will ruin your engine and actually omits more
19 pollution and—
20 NEW SPEAKER: More dangerous.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Who do you believe?
22 MODERATOR: How did you handle it?
23 NEW SPEAKER: We had all sides of the story.
24 And this is a situation where it's really up to the
25 general public to make up their own minds. But
26 meanwhile, you're the Federal government. Therefore we
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1 have to live, like it or not, by your rules. That's
2 something we haven't touched on. That you are
3 government, and EPA is part of the government that does
4 reach into our daily lives. And when these mandates
5 come down, some people see it as Big Brother.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Especially around here.
7 MODERATOR: So does that influence how often
8 you get into a story, or how you write the story or
9 present the story?
10 NEW SPEAKER: It influences who responds to it,
11 quite often. There are—I'm thinking of the Allegheny
12 Institute, groups like that, that would come out with an
13 advisory and present their experts to refute whatever it
14 is you folks might be mandating.
15 MODERATOR: So they would be a good person to
16 call for the other side?
17 NEW SPEAKER: To give them a voice, yeah. I
18 don't think you elevate them to equal status, too often,
19 with the EPA.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Besides, with the Allegheny
21 Institute you don't have to call them. They call you.
22 [Laughter]
23 MODERATOR: Alright. So they know how to reach
24 the press. Alright. Let me move onto another topic of
25 particular interest. See, our firm does a lot of these
26 kind of information groups, and one of the things that
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1 we have come to realize is that the general public is
2 pretty much not informed on what environmental issues
3 are, at least not in the way that the EPA presents it—
4 in topics, in program areas, and so forth. What kind of
5 understanding do you have of the public? How do you get
6 feedback, and what does it tell you about their
7 understanding of the environment?
8 NEW SPEAKER: The instance that we had within
9 the past five years was a new scrubber that had to go
10 into the [inaudible] Coke Works. And we decided to
11 visit the community downwind from the existing emissions
12 and talk to them about what life is like living in the
13 shadow of these smoke stacks. And what we found when we
14 got there was a very clear difference in vegetation and
15 plant life there, and cars covered in soot—lots of
16 great visuals. But when we talked to the people, wives
17 of steel workers and children of steel workers, they
18 said, "When we see these hills with dead grass on it and
19 just dirt and no life here, we know that pur men are
20 working in the mill, and that's healthy and that the way
21 we want it to stay." And that was staggering to hear
22 that from wives and children of second, third, fourth
23 generation steel workers. Now how do you—without
24 having a person there who can tell us on camera how
25 serious, how dire the consequences are for the community
26 if we don't put these scrubbers in—how can you compete
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1 with that mentality of audience there? And that's
2 indicative of many blue collar steel towns around here.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there is that population
4 that's still here, but I think that is fading. I think
5 that we're seeing more and more people that are more
6 aware of environmental issues, the needs of clean air,
7 and the health benefits from clean air and clean water,
8 and I think that there's a lot of education that's gone
9 on in the last twenty years. That combined with the
10 fact that a lot of people who work in those mills don't
11 live in those communities. I'm thinking of Hazelwood
12 for one example—the LTV Coke Works there was just
13 polluting and polluting and polluting, and those people
14 there were very aware of their health and their
15 properties being damaged by the emissions, and I think
16 a very small percentage of the people that worked in
17 that coke works actually lived in the town of Hazelwood,
18 or even nearby in Greenfield, or Oakland, or Squirrel
19 Hill. So I think there's still that population that's
20 out there, but I think there's also—I think it's just
21 as easy to find the guy who is an investment banker
22 who's living on the hill up above Hazelwood who said,
23 "For the first time I haven't had black soot on my on my
24 BMW." [Laughter] It's maybe not as sympathetic as the
25 blue collar work, but it's just as real.
26 NEW SPEAKER: But I think there is a real
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1 growing awareness of environmental issues in general.
2 I think the public is coining to the realization that
3 this is important. And I'm getting that from the
4 people, the sources that I talk to, that are— You know,
5 it's not that I don't talk to regular people all the
6 time, but the people that I'm more in contact with are,
7 you know, the regulators, the industry groups, the
8 volunteer groups that, you know— And there's been more
9 activity in more environmental kind of clean up activity
10 on a grass roots level, I think, now more than ever
11 before.
12 NEW SPEAKER: And that grass roots level is
13 much more educated than ever before. Before they were
14 very, very strident, didn't do their research, and now
15 you've got doctors and university professors that are in
16 the forefront of some of these groups and movements.
17 NEW SPEAKER: And even people without titles.
18 In my area of Ambridge they rallied two years ago to
19 fight the reopening of a flyash dump. These are not
20 doctors or educators or anything, but they knew what's
21 good for their community, what's bad for their
22 community. They fought and they won.
23 MODERATOR: And even if the education level, I
24 mean, in the schools, I mean, it's changing. It's—as
25 we speak, they're trying to pass new standards, and
26 environmental and ecology standards for students. And
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1 I see with my own children. I mean, there's definitely
2 an awareness that was not there, you know, when I was in
3 junior high that I see now. I see with my kids, I see
4 with their friends, I see, you know, just out in the
5 community, all the road signs. You know—this highway
6 is brought to you by. You know, all the clean up groups
7 that are around. I feel very positively this is just
8 going to continue, too.
9 NEW SPEAKER: We also have the situation of Sun
10 Coke, the company that wanted to build the plant where
11 the Hazelwood old TV plant shut down earlier— Well,
12 about a year ago. And a grass roots group just sprung
13 from nowhere, and they lead the fight. They said—we
14 like the idea of having cleaner air, we've noticed the
15 difference since the plant closed. And there's an Air
16 Pollution Advisory Board as part of the County Health
17 Department. So that's a third level of air quality in
18 this area, county, state, as well as you folks. And
19 these people fought it tooth and nail on the county
20 level, and they also guestioned having someone on the
21 county Air Pollution Advisory Board who also worked for
22 the company as an advisor, and they saw a little bit of
23 collusion there. Now it appears the plant's going to be
24 built somewhere else. I don't know. And they're
25 saying—yes, we won a victory! And it's an
26 environmental victory. And this group, GASP, which has
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1 been around forever, I believe was also involved in that
2 fight.
3 NEW SPEAKER: I think it shows that the people
4 in Pittsburgh are taking charge of their future as well.
5 And when the steel mill industry collapsed they would
6 have taken any kind of jobs. Now they're deciding what
7 kind of jobs they want in their region.
8 MODERATOR: Alright. Slightly related
9 question. Is the fact that EPA has little or no street-
10 level commentary on risk, such as, "the risk of ten
11 pico-Curies of radon is approximately equivalent of
12 smoking one pack of cigarettes a day. ' Is that a
13 problem in you communicating to your audiences?
14 NEW SPEAKER: What's a pico-Curie?
15 NEW SPEAKER: That says it all. [Laughter]
16 MODERATOR: Okay. It's one way they measure
17 radon, which may or may not be an issue out here. Where
18 I come from it is.
19 NEW SPEAKER: When I started covering the
20 stakeholders groups and they started using certain units
21 of measurement to make their point, my editors
22 challenged me on each and every one of them because they
23 just couldn't see what kind of message they were
24 conveying to a layman.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, and that is a big issue—
26 making some of these measurements and some of these very
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1 technical points that are made either in air quality,
2 water quality, whatever, understandable to the average
3 reader. And that's something that you wrestle with—I
4 wrestle with every day in my stories. I'm rewriting
5 what the actual technical term is, and rewriting it in
6 a way that's concise and clear to every day readers is
7 probably what takes up a lot of my time. [Laughter]
8 NEW SPEAKER: It took up a lot of mine.
9 NEW SPEAKER: We even have a more of a
10 challenge because, I'd venture to say that Lynne and Don
11 and Lee 's readers are even more educated—are
12 specifically interested in that article than are
13 virtually everyone— We're in a half-hour news cast at
14 noon and a few minutes here, and we've got grandmothers
15 at home, and little kids, and unemployed. We've got the
16 whole mix. So we'd have to even take that down maybe
17 another peg than would the beat writers.
18 NEW SPEAKER: What was your question? How,
19 what--?
20 MODERATOR: Does it create any problems for
21 you, and what can we do to meet that need?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Does what create problems? Not
23 having—?
24 MODERATOR: Well, we started out early saying
25 less jargon. No jargon.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I wish I had an example of that
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1 for every EPA story that came out. "If we allow this to
2 go on, it's the equivalent of someone sticking their
3 nose behind an exhaust pipe a of Port Authority bus for
4 fifteen minutes.' If I had—that brings it home to
5 every story, and if you could give me that— You
6 couldn't give me enough of that.
7 MODERATOR: Okay.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Journalist love numbers, because
9 they get at this whole way of qualifying something. But
10 if you're getting into algebra or trigonometry, to use
11 a really atrocious example, you start to lose some of
12 that connection that people can understand. So I guess
13 I'm saying measurements, units, numbers and certain
14 proper perspective is good, but if you're taking it to
15 the umpteenth degree that only engineers will
16 understand, it's not good.
17 NEW SPEAKERS: You also have the different
18 media to consider, where you have charts, you have
19 pictures. All we have is the spoken word or sounds.
20 NEW SPEAKER: On a kind of related, or
21 tangential point that I wanted to make was that, since
22 you're talking about that, not only is it good to make
23 it like the tail pipe scenario—it's like standing
24 behind a bus for fifteen minutes—to describe some
25 technical pollutant in the air, but one thing that I've
26 noticed fairly recently coming out of Region III, and I
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1 brought an example, is that they're relating some of
2 their releases and some of their information to news
3 events—other news events. This one came out earlier
4 this week, March 3rd, and it talks about, "In light of
5 the recent deadly explosion of the chemical plant near
6 Allentown, officials are reminding plants that keep
7 hazardous chemicals on site that by June 21st they must
8 submit risk management plans to the EPA." Now, a risk
9 management plan story is going to make my editors yawn,
10 but if I relate it to an accident that claimed a life,
11 or five I think in this case, then that drives a point
12 home. And it is still an important story, I mean,
13 without that, but with that connection, that really
14 helps me sell it to my editor. I thought Region III
15 also did this recently when they related some water
16 quality data to the release of the movie Civil Action,
17 and that was good too. I didn't happen to use that
18 one, but I wanted to but I ran out of time. So that's
19 just kind of a tangent, but it's one way to relate
20 sometimes not-so-sexy stories to get the interest of,
21 not only readers, but my editors, who I have to sell the
22 story to.
23 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me ask you what four
24 things on your wish list do you want the people at EPA
25 to know, in terms of better communicating with you, so
26 that you can do your job in a way that you want to do
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1 it?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Reopening the Pittsburgh office,
3 actually, is the obvious—
4 MODERATOR: Okay. I'm supposed to tell that
5 one day a week there is a person at DEP. Let me give
6 you this number right now. One day a week on Tuesdays
7 at the Washington Landing DEP Office Complex, there is
8 an EPA person who answers the phone.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Are they quotable?
10 MODERATOR: I don't know. It's 412-442-4124.
11 NEW SPEAKER: 4124?
12 MODERATOR: 412-442-4124.
13 NEW SPEAKER: And that person's Ray George?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Ray George.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Cool.
16 MODERATOR: Alright. But now we're at your,
17 what we call, wish list.
18 NEW SPEAKER: I have one that I've been waiting
19 to—this is another one of my crops. I get this from
20 the EPA every week. It's a list, it's a press advisory.
21 I'll read the top of this. 2-26, which is Friday, last
22 Friday, the date here or the time is also printed out
23 here. It's military time. It's 17:58. Anybody else
24 want to do the translation? [Laughter] We're thinking
25 about happy hour in my shop.
26 MODERATOR: On a Friday?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: On a Friday. Every week this
2 stuff, sometimes it's even more interesting than the
3 fact that "EPA registers new reduced risk miticide to
4 control mites and honey bee hives.' There's actually
5 some news in here. But it doesn't go anywhere if we get
6 it at 6 o'clock on Friday afternoon.
7 MODERATOR: Okay. We talked a little bit about
8 timeliness of getting information to you.
9 NEW SPEAKER: And that comes from Washington.
10 MODERATOR: Okay. I'll put timeliness up here.
11 It may have other context. Timeliness.
12 NEW SPEAKER: And the 6 o'clock faxes can come
13 any day of the week. [Laughter]
14 MODERATOR: Which 6 o'clock? What are you
15 talking about?
16 NEW SPEAKER: These 6 o'clock faxes. It's not
17 just Fridays. 5 o'clock on in the evening everyone is
18 sending out the news releases they worked on so hard all
19 day, and they don't get attention. They just pile up.
20 MODERATOR: What time do you want them?
21 NEW SPEAKER: All through the day. Let's have
22 them before noon.
23 NEW SPEAKER: But not on Friday afternoon. It
24 just makes it hard.
25 NEW SPEAKER: And plus, I mean, as a newspaper
26 person, I know my Saturday paper gets the least
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1 readership. I mean, if you've got big news, you don't
2 want to put it out on Friday at 6 o'clock.
3 NEW SPEAKER: My chain long ago gave up the
4 Saturday papers, so it doesn't do much good to get the
5 news out on Friday. Friday night.
6 MODERATOR: Timeliness. But that covers a lot
7 of things. That was a good example. We also talked
8 about getting somebody to respond after 5 o'clock if
9 necessary and in an emergency on the weekend, so I'm
10 going to put all of that under timeliness.
11 NEW SPEAKER: The second is the media guide.
12 Where to go, when to go. We want the numbers, E-mail
13 addresses.
14 NEW SPEAKER: And that's not just immediate
15 people. It's a resource guide.
16 MODERATOR: The kind of thing we talked about
17 that we have some real good specific input on from you
18 folks.
19 NEW SPEAKER: I still think a weekly or monthly
20 briefing of some sort would be a good idea.
21 NEW SPEAKER: And now that I know that Ray
22 George is here once a week, it seems easier to do.
23 MODERATOR: What about some kind of workshop
24 that introduced the materials available or how to get
25 around on the Web page or what, you know, what—
26 NEW SPEAKER: I wouldn't mind a workshop on all
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1 those materials that you were listing. I think that
2 would a valuable—I think that would be time well spent
3 for me. I don't know that it would be on my top four,
4 but--
5 MODERATOR: Alright. What weekly, monthly,
6 what was that?
7 NEW SPEAKER: I called it a briefing. It could
8 be a press conference. It could be a get-together of
9 some sort. It could be a conference call to discuss
10 ongoing issues—
11 MODERATOR: Okay, so it's some kind of like,
12 urn—
13 NEW SPEAKER: Sort of like the Press Secretary
14 meeting with the press every day or every week at the
15 White House.
16 MODERATOR: Okay. And this could be a subset.
17 Maybe they'd be there at one time for a little longer.
18 Okay. Wish list. Anything else you need from EPA or
19 need them to do differently?
20 NEW SPEAKER: I think, it doesn't apply to me
21 directly, but the jargon issue. Bring things to a level
22 where folks can understand. Making it real.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Speak English.
24 MODERATOR: Jargon issue, plus the examples
25 that people can understand. [Agreement]
26 NEW SPEAKER: If you're going to use
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1 measurements, use measurements that the average person
2 has heard of.
3 MODERATOR: Anything else?
4 NEW SPEAKER: One thing that I like that, at
5 least the regional office does for me anyway, they
6 follow through on things fairly well. And, you know, I
7 think that's a good thing. I don't get it as much out
8 of Washington, but— For instance the story I have in
9 the paper today about the EPA comments on the state
10 anti-degradation regulations—I asked those questions
11 last week and their contact person that I was talking to
12 then, Bonnie Smith, was nice enough to fax me a copy.
13 I said, whenever you come out with something, I'd like
14 to get it. Well, she remembered. I mean, I didn't have
15 to even call her up. She remembered and faxed this to
16 me, and I was able to get a story in the paper
17 yesterday. So I mean, it's nice of them when they can
18 kind of follow through on requests.
19 MODERATOR: What that reminded me of is, the
20 reason why you need the media guide so much is because
21 you rely so heavily on contacts—good contacts—and you
22 want to know who they are and how to get them. So
23 that's so understood here that we didn't even get it on
24 the wish list. But it's good contacts, good press
25 contacts.
26 NEW SPEAKER: And since smaller papers like
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1 mine don't always work with these people day in and day
2 out, it becomes even more imperative.
3 MODERATOR: Thank you for bringing that up.
4 That is really good.
5 NEW SPEAKER: To take that a step further, if
6 you have a plant that was shut down because it was just
7 producing God-awful by products into a creek, and ten
8 years ago the EPA shut it down or forced it to clean up-
9 -if you people monitor the effect on the environment, as
10 I would guess you do, and in the course of a five year,
11 ten year, two year follow-up you can say we've seen this
12 species return, we've seen this flourishing, we've seen
13 all these good things happen since we charged this
14 company this amount of money or cost this many jobs, I
15 think that helps us convey it to our viewers and readers
16 that it was worth it. Look at the pay off. And again
17 we are always looking for good news stories like that.
18 We are looking for even things like your assisting the
19 gas group to do a, you know, Point State Park clean up
20 or whatever it is, let us know about those things.
21 We're constantly looking for something constructive and
22 positive that we can share for you.
23 MODERATOR: Is there anything else that came up
24 in the course of the discussion that you didn't get a
25 chance to say that you would like to lay on the table
26 now? I know you mentioned the Federal aspect, which
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1 colors everything that comes under the EPA. Anything
2 else? Well, you have been a terrific group. I have one
3 last request of you, and that is I have a short, what we
4 call an inventory, that asks about how much you use the
5 Internet and so forth, and it asks what kind of
6 information you think EPA needs to give to you. It
7 takes about seven minutes, so give it your best shot.
8 And I just want to thank you for being a very productive
9 and informative group. I have enjoyed it, and we got
10 a lot of great information.
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I don't want to say our readers aren't sophisticated about the environmental news, but sometimes it's hard to
bring it down, bring it to their perspective. I think what they might consider an environmental story is whether
or not there is pollution in their back yard who's cleaning it up, which has been the kind of story we have been
doing as of late.
the business aspect of the environment, how companies are affected by new regulations, by new requirements.
That's certainly one aspect that we'll look at. Um, and how it affects peoples lives—how a polluted stream or
waterway in someone's neighborhood is a problem, and what is the cause of the problem and what's the solution
to the problem.
I covered stakeholders meetings a lot—some of the stakeholders meetings last year— and EPA was trying to
explain the various steps of the process, which were very clear in their minds, but they couldn't explain it to me
without using bureaucratic jargon. And I had to translate that into something my readers could understand. I
hope I did it. But that— it's—there is a problem. There's a bottleneck when a reporter also has to become a
decoder. So it's easier when the EPA and the reporter can speak on the same level.
The immediate challenge that I think all of us face is-whose is it? Is it the DEP, who we deal with and we know
these people cause they are right here in Pittsburgh and we talk to them on a regular basis. And in most of our
businesses we are looking for the talking head or a soundbyte that can address the local issue. So, in a case like
that, we struggled with—is the county health department, is it DEP, is it the EPA, is the Coast Guard? Who's in
charge here?
I think people who have expertise in a certain field should be allowed to talk instead of wondering if they should
be funneling everything through Public Relations Specialists, who may be very intelligent but may not know
what's going on. It just creates another layer that we have to work through to get what we need.
I'm working on a longer term project. Things develop as I'm working on it and things—you know, I'm not always
real clear on the direction that I'm going in, and things can evolve and they change. But it seems to me that I'm
having a hard time getting to right people that I need to talk to to answer the questions that I need answered.
It would be nice if the EPA were more willing, through its media representatives, like Pat, who does a good job,
to say—listen, I'm going to put you in touch with this guy. He's free to talk to you. He has the expertise. There's
a reluctance to do that, and if I call on these people directly, they are reluctant to talk to me. And they're going
send it right back to Pat, who will go right back to that person, who will then maybe talk to me, or maybe will
allow this guy to talk to me, but he'll be on the line too, so—there's too many layers.
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If there's an incident, no matter how small in this area, how long does it take to filter to the office in Philadelphia?
It's sort of a down side. You know, you say Pittsburgh is a medium-sized city. It's true with other government
agencies as well, where they used to have PR people on site here in Pittsburgh, they are now working out of
Philadelphia. And we make the initial call, and in the case of some agencies, they don't have a clue as to what is
happening here. But, you know, they are 300 miles away. They are further away than Philly, than Charleston,
than Buffalo, than Washington. They are further away from us than other cities, yet they are supposedly the local
PR person.
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I do use Web pages a lot. Yesterday when I was having problems getting to the PR people, I got on that
organization's Web site, found out who the Board members were, did a people search on the Internet, found out
their phone numbers, and started calling. Like you said, I mean, I just know. I couldn't wait for— So I use Web
sites a lot. I mean, I appreciate them.
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Always, you know, when I call and can't reach somebody, that's the next thing do is try to find something off the
Internet. And I use it all the time.
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the media sources you have right now are capable, but if they have to refer back to other sources it just creates a
layer. It would be better if we could go directly to people who knew and were told by their superiors that they
may be in contact with the media and they are free to talk about their area of expertise.
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Reliability is not a concern at all. I mean, I, you know, take them on face value. Um, I never thought about it
until you brought it up. I mean, you know, I may question the reason for it, and I may look into why is it
necessary to—that we monitor particulate matter at 2.5, you know. I may question the standard itself that the
EPA imposed, or the regulation, and look to experts to say, is this necessary? You know, the removal of
underground storage tanks necessary. But as far as what they say, the information they deliver, I deem very
reliable. I mean, I don't—I don't really question it.
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I have no problems with the reliability of the EPA information. Again, it goes back to how they present their
information. If they are dealing with a source, a reporter, a member of the media who is not current on standards
and processes-Lynne rattled off the particulate matter standard. I could not do that because I can't remain—I
don't have the time to remain current. That could be a problem. I think the EPA needs to work harder on how
to simplify their message, make their message clear. Again, going back to what I said earlier about jargon and
about technical issues.
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Can you illustrate the problem? Can we see the problem as opposed to speaking about it in technical scientific
terms? And can we talk to the person-instead of on the phone-on camera, and have him ideally be in front of
the problem and illustrate for us just what's happening here? Why we should all be concerned, why it's a danger,
and therefore why the Federal government needs it so it sets up these otherwise archaic regulations that take
away the jobs from our families and our people.
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it may take an hour to accumulate that information even with the best of intentions, but our deadline is our
deadline and we've got to get the most accurate information out there by the next newscast.
I remember there was a story about a-well, it was really a DEP issue about a barge that got punctured. This
was just a couple months ago~an oil spill on the river. And I learned about it, I think, on PXI watching their 5
o'clock broadcast. And it's like-okay, I've got a story to write before I go home. Okay. You know, it's like—
who can I call now? I mean, fortunately we do know DEP after hours numbers and other sources, but from—it
would be wonderful to have EPA— be able to contact them after five, and I currently can't right now.
And also, there's a matter of weekend accessibility where something might happen over a weekend that you
might want to cover, or the TV people may want to send a crew out, or we just might want to speak to on the
phone. Um, so it is important to have the after hours numbers. If we call at 6 o'clock on Friday, Monday
morning is too late to get back to us.
Obviously, we would like to know who zeroes on authority. Who's uh, you know, water, etcetera. But is there a
jurisdiction whereby we have a person's name who's responsible for Northwestern Pennsylvania, who's, uh, you
know, Butler County— as the DEP has, they break up the state into chunks.
We don't seek a private industry person to try to refute you. We afford you that credibility. The other side we get
are the people who live there and now have to live without water, or their husband is losing his job that he's had
at the mill for twenty years. But we, as a matter of policy, never challenge your-you know, if you guys say it we
trust that you're giving us the faith.
that is a big issue— making some of these measurements and some of these very technical points that are made
either in air quality, water quality, whatever, understandable to the average reader. And that's something that you
wrestle with-I wrestle with every day in my stories. I'm rewriting what the actual technical term is, and
rewriting it in a way that's concise and clear to every day readers is probably what takes up a lot of my time.
Journalist love numbers, because they get at this whole way of qualifying something. But if you're getting into
algebra or trigonometry, to use a really atrocious example, you start to lose some of that connection that people
can understand. So I guess I'm saying measurements, units, numbers and certain proper perspective is good, but
if you're taking it to the umpteenth degree that only engineers will understand, it's not good.
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U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region III
Public Meeting on Environmental Information
+ + + + +
Salisbury, MDf Local Environmental Groups Discussion
Group
+ 4- + + +
March 11, 1999
The Outreach Discussion met at Salisbury State,
Salisbury, Maryland at 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., Laurie
Davidson, moderator.
PRESENT:
ILIA FERRER, Worcester Environmental Trust
JOSEPH FEHRER, The Nature Conservancy
PHYLLIS KOENINGS, Assateague Coastal Trust
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1 MODERATOR: So we want to start, and we—like
2 I said, we are delighted to have you.
3 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) Yes, welcome to Salisbury
4 State. Thank you for coming. We thought there were
5 more people coming. My name is Dave Arnold. I work in
6 the Philadelphia Office of EPA. This is one in a series
7 of meetings we're having with the public. The idea is,
8 we want to find out what kind of information you need as
9 the public—specifically part of the public that, I
10 think, considers themselves to be environmentalists.
11 Not only are we concerned, interested in knowing what
12 kind of information do you want, but how do we get it to
13 you. What's the best way? We're sort of on the cutting
14 edge of a lot of new technologies now. So we need to
15 hear from you about those kinds of things. Maybe the
16 old-fashioned way is still the best way. I don't know.
17 But we have some professionals here that will help
18 facilitate the meeting. I will step out because I'm not
19 real good at this kind of stuff. With that, again,
20 thanks for coming. We did scour the campus and we
21 couldn't find anybody else. So I thought that there
22 were going to be at least eight of you. We appreciate
23 you coming, though. Thank you. Bye.
24 MODERATOR: Alright. I would like it to make
25 it a little more comfortable for you to talk with each
26 other too. Can we maybe reposition ourselves a little
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1 bit?
2 NEW SPEAKER: A little closer to you?
3 MODERATOR: Yeah. Joseph would you mind moving
4 over here?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Okay.
6 MODERATOR: And I hope first names are okay.
7 I'm Laurie Davidson, as you know, and we do have a lot
8 of ground to cover tonight. But just let me do my short
9 introduction too. I'm with Princeton Economic Research.
10 I'm not an employee of the EPA. We do these kinds of
11 groups for several different kinds of state and Federal
12 agencies. So we hope we bring a kind of unbiased
13 approach to what's going on, and we'll try to transmit
14 what you say in a very accurate way to the folks that
15 are interested in hearing about it. Region III, as you
16 know, is holding a series of meetings like this in its
17 territory. And we've talked about some of the states
18 there, and this will be our first meeting in Maryland.
19 The other groups have included librarians and people in
20 the media, and future groups will include small business
21 people and environmental educators in the public
22 schools. And your group, of course, has to do with
23 environmental groups at regional and local levels. So
24 you will be representing that part of the public
25 tonight. Ordinarily these groups last two hours, and
26 we'll try to get you out close to 8:30, as promised.
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1 Since there are less people here we started late, but
2 maybe we can end a little faster than normal. We are
3 audio taping and video taping. There are folks in
4 another room from EPA who are watching us tonight. This
5 is, by definition, a public meeting. So this is on a
6 public record somewhere. But, basically, my colleagues
7 and I use the notes to develop—here's what happened and
8 here's what the group recommended. So that's what we
9 use them for. Now, we hope that you will discuss among
10 yourselves tonight, and part of the richness of the
11 discussion is sharing information, which it sounds like
12 you already do on a regular basis, and that's fine.
13 Please feel free to get up and walk around. Use the
14 restrooms. Get some more refreshments, whatever. And
15 since it's a very small group, we don't have to raise
16 hands or anything like that. Please tell us both
17 positive and negative ideas. That helps. And, urn,
18 basically, for us all, could you start please, Ilia,
19 introduce yourself to the group. Tell us a little bit
20 about the work that your group does, or the organization
21 that you're representing tonight.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. I'm Ilia Fehrer. And I'm
23 Chairman of the Worcester Environmental Trust. Our
24 group has been in existence since 1972. And it's
25 primarily made up of Worcester County people, although
26 we do have people who appreciate Worcester County that
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1 live on the other side of the Bay and that want to keep
2 apprised of what's going on. We get involved in a lot
3 of land use issues. We've been involved in zoning
4 cases, clean air issues, a lot of wetland issues, and
5 rising sea level. We're involved with the Coastal Bay
6 Program, which is run by EPA, or funded by EPA right
7 now, and to do a study on the coastal bay similar to
8 what has gone on in the Chesapeake. Anyway, I guess
9 that's about it. We get a newsletter out occasionally,
10 when I find time to get it out. And that's about it.
11 And then just trying to keep on top of what's going on,
12 and letting people know about it. If they can take a—
13 have any say or get involved. Thank you.
14 NEW SPEAKER: I'm with the Assateague Coastal
15 Trust, which is a regional organization. We have
16 members. The area of concern began with Assateague
17 Island, the National Park Service, the Chincoteague
18 Refuge, and has expanded to the coastal bays and the
19 watershed, from the southern part of Delaware on the
20 coastal areas down to Virginia down by Chincoteague.
21 And many—the majority of our members are actually in
22 Baltimore, Washington, Philadelphia. And the group has
23 recently, in the last three years, moved down to Berlin
24 to have more of a local presence. And we work very
25 closely with the Worcester Environmental Trust and the
26 Maryland Coastal Bays Program as well. We do—we have
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1 issues forums. We put out a quarterly newsletter. We
2 participate in Maryland Coast Day. We organize the
3 clean up, the coastal clean up, every year. We're
4 bringing a speaker in two weeks for our annual meeting—
5 from the Wildlife Fund—on global warming and sea level
6 rise. The three goals of the organization are research,
7 education, and, urn— What's the other one, Ilia?
8 [Laughter] Advocacy, which is a big part of what we do
9 as well.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Hi. I'm Joe Fehrer, and I'm
11 representing the Nature Conservancy. I'm a member of
12 the Stewardship Committee of the Nassawango Creek Nature
13 Preserve, which is the largest nature conservancy
14 preserve in Maryland and now exceeds 33,000 acres. I
15 was Chairman of this group for 11 years, and in 1995 I
16 turned the job over to someone else in our organization,
17 but I'm still very active in the group. The Nature
18 Conservancy is a not-for-profit conservation
19 organization, and it has numerous preserves throughout
20 the United States. And it has an international office,
21 which works with Central American and South American
22 countries. It's this tremendous organization, and their
23 primary interest is acquiring land and preserving land
24 as a natural estate—land that acquires, that contains
25 endangered species. They're not interested in acquiring
26 just any land, but they want land that is very valuable
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1 in natural resources. It's a great organization and
2 I've always enjoyed working for them. And our work in
3 the stewardship committee is on a strictly volunteer
4 basis. There are no paid personnel in our group.
5 MODERATOR: Are you also volunteers?
6 NEW SPEAKER: I am paid.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Not paid.
8 MODERATOR: Alright. I'd like to start by
9 talking about types of environmental information that
10 you need in doing your work. Think about, maybe, the
11 last two years to five years. Could someone describe a
12 situation where you needed information and you had a
13 good experience in getting that information.
14 Environmental information.
15 NEW SPEAKER: From EPA, or from any—
16 MODERATOR: It can be from any place and we'll
17 get to EPA too. At the moment I'm looking for the good
18 experience to try to characterize what that looks like.
19 NEW SPEAKER: They have a pretty active network
20 of environmental organizations in Maryland with some
21 very knowledgeable people. And—I'm trying to think of
22 a particular issue that we might have worked on. I know
23 I get a lot of information from the Clean Water Network
24 and Coast Alliance, because they're focussed on coastal
25 areas. And a lot of that information I get by—through
26 E-mail newsletters.
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1 MODERATOR: Uh-huh.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. The same, the same way—I
3 know we get our members—and I'm on the board of
4 directors for Coast Alliance, and I get, you know, their
5 information. Then there—at the Maryland Conservation
6 Council keeps us abreast of legislation during the
7 Maryland legislative session, and if I need information
8 I can go to them or their directory. I guess through
9 the years we've kind of developed a list of people that
10 we can go to. For instance, Richard Klein with sediment
11 control problems and how to go about resolving problems
12 where you have sediment running off a site. And, urn, I
13 kind of keep in touch with a—tightest with the EPA in
14 Washington, and I'm on the list for wetlands from the
15 State of Maryland. I get all the applications, and the
16 Army Corps of Engineers sends the applications, or—
17 well, joint notices of wetland applications to fill or
18 alter wetlands from the Army Corps of Engineers or the
19 State of Maryland. And the Corps of Engineers recently
20 has had—well, during the past year 1998—had hearings
21 on their general permits. And they've sent what I—you
22 know, I don't remember if I called explicitly to get
23 copies of the new regulations that were coming out. And
24 I know new ones are going to be coming out this—later
25 in the spring to revise the ones that they looked at
26 last year. But I try to keep abreast of changes in the
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1 wetland legislation. And I've—talk to Phyllis, and
2 sometimes she can help me out with— We kind of work
3 together as far as getting, sharing information. Right
4 now I'm working—getting involved in a power plant issue
5 down on the Pocomoke River, which I feel EPA is going to
6 be very interested in when they think—when they hear
7 about it. I'm just working on a letter to them
8 regarding this proposal to put in a power plant at
9 Chesapeake Plywood down south of the Town of Pocomoke,
10 which is right on the Pocomoke River, and the Pocomoke
11 River now is very famous for being the first place in
12 Maryland where Pfiesteria occurred. And I don't think
13 they need additional heat in the water, and/or
14 nutrients, or any of the other things that this wood-
15 burning power plant is going to provide. So I'm just
16 trying to alert various groups that I work with, like
17 Chesapeake Bay Foundation and State of Maryland, the
18 Department of the Environment and all, to let them know
19 that some people are concerned about it down here, if
20 they haven't heard about it. I'm sure they'll be
21 reviewing the permits as they come through, but I also
22 know since it's in Sommerset County, and that Sommerset
23 County is eager for economic development, sometimes they
24 kind of turn their backs as far as environmental
25 problems are concerned. So I think somebody needs to
26 wake up the citizenry and make people more aware of the
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1 problems that siting that facility might bring, since
2 nobody— Originally they had wanted to site up in Cecil
3 County and apparently the people up there didn't want
4 it. So I don't think that they want it down here
5 either. So, anyway, that's another project that we're
6 involved in.
7 MODERATOR: Okay. That's a current issue?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Absolutely. Yeah.
9 MODERATOR: That would be interesting to
10 discuss. But first I would just need to hear from Joe.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Ilia and I work together on all
12 of these Environmental Trust problems and interests.
13 And then, of course, Ilia and I also work together on
14 some of the Nature Conservancy work. But, so far as the
15 Conservancy is concerned, we don't have as many issues
16 as the Environmental Trust does. Our big thing is we
17 know we have over 3,000 acres and we must manage the
18 preserve and protect the resources. We want to make
19 sure that people don't encroach upon our lands, cut
20 trees, and otherwise disturb it. And that's our big
21 job.
22 MODERATOR: Okay.
23 NEW SPEAKER: As far as having a good
24 experience finding information, I guess my—the most
25 recent experience I had was looking for information on
26 National Marine Sanctuary Areas. And I found a good Web
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1 site and was able to print out some good information
2 from there.
3 MODERATOR: Do you remember which Web site and
4 how you found it, or how you got to it?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
6 MODERATOR: Could you tell me a little bit
7 about that?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Urn, I know it was the—I know it
9 was through NOAA—that it was a National Marine
10 Sanctuary in Florida. And I think I probably just did
11 a search for sanctuary areas.
12 MODERATOR: Alright. It sounds like sometimes,
13 though, you call each other and get a lead.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Definitely. Most often it's
15 calling someone or an organization that we know is
16 knowledgeable about an issue.
17 MODERATOR: Okay. And it sounds like over a
18 period of time you've built up some kind of network.
19 So, for instance, you mentioned the gentleman that is
20 knowledgeable about sediment. Is he in the Maryland
21 government?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Well, he formerly worked for the
23 Maryland State Government, but now he's a consultant on
24 his own. He lives up near the Pennsylvania line in
25 Baltimore County.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. You got to know him when he
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1 was in the Maryland, um—
2 NEW SPEAKER: Maryland State Government. When
3 he was— In fact, he set up the original regulations on
4 sediment control for the State of Maryland. He worked
5 on that for a long time.
6 MODERATOR: Would he be in—have been in
7 Maryland's environmental—
8 NEW SPEAKER: Department of Natural Resources.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. Maybe we can go back to your
10 example about the utility plant, and think about the
11 kinds of information you would like to have available to
12 you for you to work on this issue.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. Well, I have a large
14 library, which I have been—I refer to a lot— that I've
15 acquired books through the years. And I'm very
16 interested now, since some of the books I have are from
17 back in the early-"80s. And just to keep up with what's
18 going on, I need more information on what kind of toxic
19 metal or heavy metals that might be in waste wood
20 products, such as arsenic-treated plywood, telephone
21 poles, creosote, and the impacts of those types of
22 things on the environment, on water quality. What would
23 be the—what kinds of emissions you can expect from a
24 plant like that. And also the impact on the marine
25 organisms in the river. You know, the fact that it's
26 going to heat. I would think that they're using part of
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12
1 this as cooling—the part of the river—for cooling the
2 generators or whatever, that it's going to have some
3 problems with eutrophication and loss of oxygen, and the
4 further loss of oxygen in the river. So, I need
5 information on air quality from wood-fired power plants
6 and also on water quality problems that are caused by
7 the cooling waters. And I know we've, through the
8 coastal bay studies, that they—you know, we've learned
9 that almost a third of the nutrients, the pollution
10 coming into the coastal bays, is air borne. And here we
11 would have a site that's not very far, within seven or
12 ten miles of the coastal bays, and we have a prevailing
13 wind from the southwest that would just bring all this
14 air pollution, you know, additional air pollution into
15 the bays. So I just—I need more information on the
16 toxicity of like waste wood products, and you know I
17 just think of arsenic-treated pilings and telephone
18 poles and all kinds of stuff that would be burned at
19 that site. And then just generally the impact that it
20 could have on our local forest, as far as the use of
21 hard woods, and since we're primarily an area where they
22 grow Loblolly pines for profit, and all of the wood
23 plants around here are geared up for the use of Loblolly
24 pine, it's going to be an impetus to harvest the hard
25 wood trees, so we're going to—it could be using
26 additional forest land just to provide the wood for
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13
1 this. So I need, you know, just general information on
2 that type of thing.
3 MODERATOR: Do you have a strategy or some
4 thoughts about where you1re going to get this
5 information?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Well, right now I'm just trying
7 to look it up myself. And, I don't know how far— Well,
8 I'm trying to alert groups like Chesapeake Bay
9 Foundation, because I would think they'll be very
10 interested. And this State Department of the
11 Environment, and Herb [Sacks], some of the people I've
12 gotten to know through the Coastal Bay Program that I
13 think, you know, need to be aware of the fact that this
14 is being planned in Sommerset County, which isn't really
15 too far from where I live and too far from where any of
16 us live.
17 MODERATOR: And you mentioned getting in touch
18 with the EPA. Which part of the EPA would that be?
19 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I don't know. That's—and
20 I thought, probably, that was part of the reason we were
21 meeting here, to learn what EPA—what services they have
22 for us, because I don't have an inkling of how they—
23 where I could go in EPA. We need to have, like, an 800
24 number. We need to have a directory, or some kind of
25 information database that tells us what they have that
26 we could use. But it just seems to be that they're in
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14
1 their ivory tower, and I know that they review some
2 wetland cases, and I know that they review a lot
3 different things. But, you know, who do you contact and
4 where do you go? So that's what I was hoping to find
5 out more about.
6 MODERATOR: And we do have some information for
7 you to take with you, and possibly some people that
8 could help you specifically with that. But that will be
9 at the end of the meeting. Okay.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. Good.
11 MODERATOR: Well, how about the rest of you?
12 Do you have an idea of who to call within EPA for
13 certain types of information? I see you shaking your
14 head.
15 NEW SPEAKER: No, I do not.
16 MODERATOR: Do you ever contact the EPA?
17 NEW SPEAKER: Not for the Nature Conservancy.
18 But working with Ilia on different things we have found
19 a few contacts at EPA.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Wetlands people particularly.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Principally wetlands.
22 MODERATOR: Okay. Do you know whether that's
23 a national contact, or a Region III, or some other?
24 NEW SPEAKER: Region III.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Region III.
26 MODERATOR: Region III. Okay. Alright. They
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15
1 are located where?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Philadelphia.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Philadelphia.
4 MODERATOR: Philadelphia. Okay. Alright. Now
5 Phyllis, you say you do have some contact there.
6 NEW SPEAKER: In the national?
7 MODERATOR: Either one.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, oh. I was doing quite a bit
9 of work on pesticides a couple of years ago, and through
10 attending a conference I met some people and was able to
11 call them and find out who to call. And in that way was
12 able to make some contacts and get some information. If
13 I hadn't done that, I'm not sure if I would have pursued
14 trying to get the right person.
15 MODERATOR: Okay. Were they Region III
16 contacts?
17 NEW SPEAKER: No. They were national. They
18 were in Washington.
19 MODERATOR: National contacts. Okay. Do you
20 ever contact Region III in Philadelphia or any of its
21 other city locations?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Not often, although they're— I'm
23 not even sure— Well, I thinking—no, I was thinking of
24 Rick [Kutz]. I think he's in Philadelphia. And I
25 couldn't even tell you what office he's in, but he has
26 worked with our organization. Actually before I came
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16
1 on, he helped the organization put on a conference, and
2 EPA helped sponsor it with some other local groups.
3 MODERATOR: And he was a Philadelphia contact.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yes. Yes, and I've been in
5 contact with again him about some other work that we
6 were doing.
7 MODERATOR: Okay. Alright. Let's see. You
8 mentioned the Internet. Urn, I'm wondering how
9 widespread the use of the Internet is. Can you tell me
10 how you use it?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Mostly for E-mail, but I do get
12 on Web sites. Most of my problem is time. There's a
13 lot of information that I would like to try to retrieve
14 off the Internet, but it—I just have found I don't have
15 the time to be looking around. And so, if there are—
16 there probably are directories, and I just haven't
17 purchased them or found them to—to—to go right to a
18 site that I want to get information from. But a few
19 things like the NOAA—urn, what else was I researching?
20 I have done some research for pesticide issues.
21 MODERATOR: Uh-huh.
22 NEW SPEAKER: On the Internet.
23 MODERATOR: Do you get to use the Internet or
24 E-mail?
25 NEW SPEAKER: No, we do not. We have graduated
26 only as far as the word processor. [Laughter] And we
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17
1 do things the old-fashioned way. We type and mail.
2 That's it.
3 NEW SPEAKER: And make phone calls.
4 NEW SPEAKER: And make phone calls.
5 MODERATOR: Right. Yes. And we thank you,
6 Ilia, for making those phone calls so that you're here.
7 Let's see. We've talked about Internet. We've talked
8 about personal contacts, phone, personal libraries. How
9 about libraries in general or specialized libraries? Do
10 you have any that you recommend? Can think of?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Well the County Library, I have used,
12 although recently it seems like they don't— Urn, I have
13 bought a lot of their books that they put up for sale
14 after nobody else— You know, if they don't see anybody
15 using them, they have them as used books. And so I keep
16 watching the shelves that have all the used books on
17 environment and buy them.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Is that right? [Laughter]
19 MODERATOR: You've got them coming and going.
20 NEW SPEAKER: So, anyway, that's where I am
21 with the library. And I guess it's just time
22 constraints too. You know, I know the university here
23 must have a wonderful library, and I've been in here a
24 couple of times, but really don't depend on it or use it
25 that much. So it's just usually what I have or what I
26 can find from begging from different people, articles or
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18
1 that sort of thing that I have accumulated.
2 MODERATOR: Anybody else on libraries?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Well, the little library in my
4 town, I wouldn't even think about going in to do
5 research. It's very, very limited.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Both our communities are limited
7 that way, Snow Hill and Berlin.
8 MODERATOR: So you're talking about Berlin and
9 he's talking about Snow Hill. Alright then, let's move
10 on about looking at reliability or balance in the
11 information that you get. How do you judge whether the
12 information you're getting is accurate?
13 NEW SPEAKER: That's a tough one.
14 NEW SPEAKER: That's a real tough one.
15 NEW SPEAKER: I think— You know, I'm thinking
16 now on rising sea level issues, and there are certain
17 experts—Court Stevenson at, I think, at Oxford Marine
18 Lab and Jim Titus at EPA in Washington. And there have
19 been a lot of articles published about that, and I feel
20 they—I can depend on those. And, you know, I just have
21 to take the word of a scientist talking about coastal
22 issues, even though some of the scientists seem— I
23 mean, it depends on who's looking at it. Orrin Pilkey
24 is a very controversial person because he's telling
25 people what they don't want to hear, but I think he has
26 a lot of credibility and what he says is true, or else
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19
1 he wouldn't have the renowned that he does. So, you
2 know, I think the scientists that have a legitimate
3 following and, you know, he teaches at Duke and I think
4 a lot of people attend his classes and hang on every
5 word so I, you know, I'm just counting on his
6 credibility, and I do. I'm the same way with wetland
7 research. You just have to take peoples' word for it,
8 and then your own observations out in the field. When—
9 I imagine both of us have been out with botanists who
10 were taking field trips out in the marshes and all to
11 point out various things. So you pick up a lot as you
12 go along. And then we have a very good friend, a couple
13 of friends with—that are working with the Nature
14 Conservancy. They, too, are non-paid volunteers, but
15 they're both excellent authorities on endangered plants.
16 And, in fact, this one has many, a few endangered plants
17 that he's discovered and he has named, and so, you know,
18 you just—I have a lot of confidence in his work. So,
19 urn, I feel that there are a lot of nay-sayers and there
20 are people that don't want to—you know, they feel that
21 they don't want to hear what these, what the scientists
22 are saying. But since that's the best of the knowledge,
23 you just have to have some reliability in that. Or they
24 deserve my respect, anyway.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Orrin Pilkey wrote a book
26 entitled, Currituck to Calabash. And he describes the
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20
1 beaches between those two places. Currituck is in
2 Virginia, just below Virginia Beach, and—Currituck,
3 excuse me, that's in North Carolina close to Virginia.
4 And Calabash is the southern-most point along the Coast
5 of North Carolina. And we took his book—it must have
6 been five or six years ago—and we went from one place
7 to another, that he wrote about in his book, where he
8 outlined the problems and he had photographs of what had
9 happened during various storms. And we checked it all
10 out, and everything—you know, we agreed with everything
11 he said in there. But we found that taking the
12 information like that and checking it out ourselves is
13 a good way to decide whether it's—
14 NEW SPEAKER: Well, you can learn.
15 NEW SPEAKER: True or not true. Yeah.
16 NEW SPEAKER: When you actually see beaches
17 that are accreting, and he points out that these certain
18 beaches are accreting and other beaches are eroding, and
19 it's there.
20 NEW SPEAKER: And we have taken field trips
21 with groups of scientist who get together every year.
22 It's called the Assateague Shelf and Shore Group. And
23 they've been meeting, I think, for twenty years, Ilia?
24 NEW SPEAKER: close to that. Yeah, 25 years.
25 NEW SPEAKER: And we've taken trips with them
26 on all the beaches, and they describe what has happened,
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21
1 what can be anticipated. We've learned a lot that way.
2 MODERATOR: Shelf and shore?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yes, Assateague Shelf and Shore.
4 MODERATOR: And shore.
5 NEW SPEAKER: And shore.
6 MODERATOR: Okay. Thank you. I'm not
7 familiar—
8 NEW SPEAKER: In fact, they are having a
9 meeting this year in April, I think it's the 16th, the
10 17th at Lewes, Delaware, and we plan to go up there.
11 They have one day when the scientists will present—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Papers.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Their findings, their papers on
14 different locations. And the next day will be a field
15 trip. So we're looking forward to that.
16 MODERATOR: Okay.
17 NEW SPEAKER: And one other thing that I might
18 say. When we read about the scientific opinions, if
19 they work to our benefit we tend to believe it, I think.
20 [Laughter]
21 MODERATOR: I understand that.
22 NEW SPEAKER: It is tough, though, when you're
23 just looking at an article and you don't know the
24 author, to know how much credence to put into it
25 because, I mean, we all know that science can be skewed
26 one way or another. When I was dealing with pesticide
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22
1 issues, I guess I would rely on the national
2 organizations that have—that that was their issue.
3 They had a lot of knowledge on pesticide issues, and I
4 would follow their—
5 NEW SPEAKER: Their recommendations.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Their recommendations, yeah.
7 MODERATOR: Okay. Well, just to recap, it
8 sounds like it's important that the person be affiliated
9 with an organization, like a university, that gives them
10 some credence. That you've actually heard them in some
11 kind of workshop or seminar and that you've worked with
12 them or checked out their work seems to add additional
13 credibility.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
15 MODERATOR: And then you mentioned—what was it
16 again—the organizations with people who specialize in
17 these areas, so that they have a certain knowledge base
18 that's a little different from the university, but they
19 might also call on universities.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
21 MODERATOR: Okay. Can we think of anything
22 else that adds to thinking it's accurate or thinking
23 it's balanced. These are all excellent kinds of
24 dimensions, I think. I just want to make sure we've hit
25 what you use.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I can't think of anything else.
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23
1 [Agreement] I really rely a lot on the—
2 NEW SPEAKER: Like NRDC. National groups.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Right. The organizations, yeah.
4 And our—I think I mentioned the Clean Water Network and
5 the Coast Alliance that they just~I feel as though they
6 have some very knowledgeable people on board, and that
7 the information I get from them, I tend to go with.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Depend on, yeah.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. What about timeliness? How
10 recent does information have to be? Does it differ from
11 one area to another? Tell me a little bit about how
12 fast you have to have information.
13 NEW SPEAKER: That varies a lot, depending on
14 whether there is an issue that's—there's going to be a
15 hearing in a couple of weeks and you need to write
16 comments on, or whether it's something like the, the
17 national sanctuaries that, you know, we're thinking of
18 down the road, and— It just varies from issue to issue,
19 I think.
20 MODERATOR: Okay. Let's talk about—you're
21 gonna be giving testimony, for instance. It sounds like
22 you all may show up at hearings from time to time.
23 NEW SPEAKER: We have a wetland, I have a
24 wetland hearing that I've—well, in fact, there are two.
25 One's up in West Ocean City that's coming up on the
26 18th, and then another one up here in Salisbury where
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24
1 somebody wants to build out over the Wicomico River and
2 have requested a public hearing. I haven't been told
3 yet when that was going to occur, but I'm, you know—
4 The one in West Ocean City, I've more or less have
5 basically my information on that already. I just have
6 to write it up. But urn—
7 NEW SPEAKER: What we do when we receive is
8 really—uh, we receive a notice of the hearing coming up
9 or a notice of—proposed to be done by someone, we will
10 go to the site whenever we can and check it out for
11 ourselves before going to the hearing or before writing
12 anything about it. We want to make sure we know what
13 we're talking about.
14 MODERATOR: And that you sound like that might
15 be usual for people who show up at hearings. Is that
16 what I'm hearing?
17 NEW SPEAKER: Well—
18 NEW SPEAKER: I would think it probably is.
19 NEW SPEAKER: It might be.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. And also, you'd have to
21 get the plans and, you know, they have drawings, usually
22 that the Corp or the state will provide, as far as what
23 exactly they're planning to do. And when you request
24 the public—when they have the public hearing, you still
25 can ask questions then of the applicant, and in this
26 case I called some of the neighbors who I know are—who,
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25
1 from experience—well, years ago I knew they were very
2 involved and interested, so in fact, they were the ones
3 who requested the public hearing, and they have some
4 other legal questions that I know they're pushing as far
5 as this particular case is concerned. So I'm kind of
6 depending on some of the immediate neighbors who will be
7 affected because they will not any longer have access
8 to—the riparian access—to Sinepuxent Bay that they
9 have enjoyed in the past ever since, maybe 30 or 40
10 years since they've been living there. And I know
11 they've, um—they have a case in court right now, so I—
12 they told me—regarding this particular gentleman who
13 wants to fill some additional wetlands and do some
14 construction in and over those areas. So, you know, I'm
15 finding it's good to talk to some of the neighbors that
16 I have known through the years that would be affected by
17 these wetland cases, as well as my own experience with—
18 you get to know, sometimes, the good players and the bad
19 players. And some developers either are just, I'll say
20 ignorant, for want of a better word, and some are very
21 devious and they get around the law. I mean, they know
22 what they are doing and are playing one entity against
23 another, so to speak, and then, um— So anyway, it's
24 just to try to get, maybe, conditions put on the permit
25 if, indeed, it is allowed. Or else, I don't know how
26 this case is going to turn out because of the affected
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26
1 property owners, if it's—will just get put off, or held
2 up, or stopped. But anyway, it will be interesting to
3 see what turns up about this particular case. So it,
4 urn—
5 NEW SPEAKER: If you needed more information
6 where would you go? [Laughter] You have the
7 information you need, though, in your personal library
8 on the damage to wetlands that's caused by various
9 things.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Right. And you have to assume
11 also that the people from the Department of the
12 Environment, they have been on the site and they
13 probably—you know, you can ask them what types of
14 benthic organisms will be disturbed if this area is
15 filled. And, you know, just to get that into the
16 testimony or into the record. And urn, you know, I think
17 you try to get all the information you can that way,
18 but—and then just the general knowledge of the area.
19 And I don't think that that case is going to be that
20 involved. The other case up here in Salisbury has a lot
21 of political overtones, and I'm told that— I'm not
22 going—I don't expect, maybe, to stop it, although I'm
23 going to be grasping at straws to try, at least, to do
24 what I can so that a precedent isn't set by building a
25 bar out of the river, which is what they plan to do.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. I like Phyllis' question.
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27
1 In the best of all possible worlds, what other kind of
2 information would really help you make your case, and
3 where would you go for it?
4 NEW SPEAKER: You know, it's an interesting
5 thing to point— I've, I have in the past, and with the
6 same gentleman who I'm going up against in West Ocean
7 City, gotten a fishery expert from the local area to
8 testify as far as the impacts of that particular case.
9 Unfortunately, that poor guy almost lost his job because
10 the local powers that be—the County Commissioners at
11 that time—really had it in for him. And he almost did
12 lose his job because he did not testify in the way the
13 County Commissioners and their friend, who wanted to do
14 the development, wanted him to. You know, and so I
15 think he kind of put his tail between his legs and shied
16 off of testifying on other cases. In fact, I felt
17 really bad for asking him because I knew what, that
18 letters—you know, the county was criticizing the state,
19 or criticizing him for testifying about the impact on
20 fisheries.
21 [ TAPE FLIP ]
22 But, you know, you have to be careful sometimes when you
23 use local experts, particularly when it can be a very
24 heated issue that the local politicians are quite
25 involved in, maybe, themselves. You might of found out
26 after the fact, so to speak. But this is all stuff that
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28
1 happens on a local level. I don't think you'd find so
2 much of that in calling on EPA or—
3 MODERATOR: Well, I'm just wondering if EPA
4 could have a role here. If it's conceivable.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, well, I wish it would, but
6 I don't know where to go.
7 MODERATOR: Alright.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Well, in that instance, it would
9 probably be the National Marine Fisheries Service.
10 Something like that. [Agreement]
11 MODERATOR: Alright. Let's see. Just to
12 finish up on EPA data or information, is there any EPA
13 information or data that you do use or can remember
14 using? You mentioned the toxic pesticide information.
15 Anything else that comes to mind?
16 NEW SPEAKER: I'm trying to remember the name
17 of the report. There is a characterization report of
18 the bays that I've used.
19 MODERATOR: Would that be a Federal? Do you
20 remember? I'm going to get a soda. Please help
21 yourselves, too.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Yeah, think that was
23 definitely EPA.
24 NEW SPEAKER: No. I think that—yes, it was,
25 but I think it was out of the Region III, because I know
26 some of Dr. [Kutz's] research was in there.
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29
1 MODERATOR: Do you have any favorite sources
2 for EPA?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Well, with sea level rise, which
4 is out of Washington, Jim Titus and the information—he
5 has authored a number of books or co-authored with other
6 scientists on sea level rise, and has been involved with
7 local training as far as—one time we went to an
8 educators meeting that was held at UMES, which is the
9 college or university right down road here—
10 MODERATOR: That we passed on the way here, I
11 think, or sort of.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it's down—if you came up—
13 NEW SPEAKER: It's in Princess Anne—
14 NEW SPEAKER: It's in Princess Anne.
15 NEW SPEAKER: University of Maryland Eastern
16 Shore.
17 MODERATOR: Saw the sign. Sorry.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. And, urn, anyway, I've know
19 him for a numbers of years and been reading the work
20 that he's done, and he has sent me information,
21 sometimes a comment on, as far as my views of what I see
22 in the field as far as what he is writing. And, I mean,
23 as I say, it seems to have a lot of credibility as far
24 as I'm concerned. And, I mean, he's one person that I
25 feel I can get information from. And, through the
26 Coastal Bay Program, I think we've gotten a lot of
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30
1 information through EPA. But otherwise, it's been—I
2 don't know what's available or how to get hold of it.
3 NEW SPEAKER: I'm trying to dredge up from my
4 memory how I got the information, but I was looking for
5 environmental educational handouts for children that,
6 when we go to exhibits and fairs and things, that we
7 could provide. And I contacted EPA, I believe it was a
8 phone call, but I don't know where I got the number
9 from, that they ended up sending me a whole packet of
10 samples of things that we could order to have as
11 handouts.
12 MODERATOR: Do you remember if it was a
13 Philadelphia number or a Federal number?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Uh, I have a feeling it was a
15 Federal number. I think it was a national distribution
16 center.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I wanted to ask Ilia a question.
18 Many years ago, I believe, EPA made a study of the
19 Chincoteague—of the flood prone areas. Were they
20 mapping—
21 NEW SPEAKER: Wetlands.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Wetlands. And, uh, we wanted
23 them to do a similar study up in Ocean City. In West
24 Ocean City.
25 NEW SPEAKER: In West Ocean City. Yeah.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Which they never did.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Which is just as good, because
2 that one down in Chincoteague, I think, has backfired.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, really?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yes. I mean, the people down
5 there just got furious, and since then, those wetlands
6 have been filled as fast as they can get filled. And I
7 don't know if they—well, they are under the Norfolk
8 District Army Corp of Engineers, and they don't manage
9 their wetlands very well at all.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. I remember that study,
11 though.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
13 MODERATOR: So where did the problem come in?
14 With the nature of the study? The way—the organization
15 that had to administer the policy? I'm not sure where
16 you're unhappy about the study.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I'm not. I think the study was
18 good.
19 MODERATOR: Oh. Okay.
20 NEW SPEAKER: But the people that lived there
21 that didn't want to be told what to do with their
22 property, they wanted to sell it. And consequently,
23 well, they did meticulous mapping and I found lots and
24 lots of wetlands in the Town of Chincoteague, but I
25 remember the hearing—I think the poor EPA people were
26 glad to get out of there without having their tires
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1 slashed and their windows of their cars bashed in. I
2 mean, it was really a contentious meeting, and people
3 were saying they were all going to die of mosquito bites
4 and equine encephalitis and, you know, all the stuff
5 they were going to get from the mosquitos if they kept
6 those wetlands. And so, you know, I've just seen over
7 the years—and this must have been back in the early 80s
8 or late 70s—but there's not much in the way of wetlands
9 that are left in the Town of Chincoteague.
10 MODERATOR: Okay. Well, now you're getting
11 into an interesting area here. Do you deal with a
12 public that is sometimes very anti-environmental?
13 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, yes.
14 NEW SPEAKER: All the time. [Laughter]
15 MODERATOR: Okay. Well, what kind of
16 information would be helpful to you in that area?
17 NEW SPEAKER: I would like to see the
18 government do more public education, and I think the
19 medium is—it's the public media—is television or radio
20 or— I mean, there so many things that the majority of
21 us know need to change, like the feedlot situation that
22 I know EPA is addressing, and the farmers.
23 NEW SPEAKER: They hate it.
24 NEW SPEAKER: But if the common people—you
25 know, the average citizen isn't interested, doesn't have
26 a clue, and unless they're beaten over the head with it
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33
1 or given some very simple information—and I don't know
2 exactly how you do this—but we need to start changing
3 attitudes. And if there's a 30 minute—30 second spot
4 on television in prime time that starts talking about—
5 somehow relating that price that we're paying for our
6 goods and our food is not the true cost of that product,
7 that in the end we're paying for having to clean up
8 after the industry pollutes and the farm, factory farms
9 pollute. Somehow or other, make the public aware that
10 buying things cheap, we're paying down the road in our
11 health and in our taxes in having to clean up things.
12 And I think that that would help us all a lot in being
13 able to accomplish our missions if we could start
14 turning that attitude, or at least making people more
15 aware. Sure there are stories on the nightly news and
16 there are stories in the newspaper, but it just needs to
17 be more of a constant—some kind of message out there.
18 MODERATOR: You mentioned 30 second messages,
19 but I thought originally you were starting more with,
20 like, 30 minute messages.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, I said minute, but I
22 corrected that to 30 second. I mean, I think just a
23 spot, you know, on some program—some prime time
24 programs—that just start laying out the issue. And
25 granted, it would have to be done in a cute or
26 interesting way that people would even look at it, but
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1 I just think we're not getting the message out to the
2 public that we're doing more damage than people realize
3 to the environment.
4 MODERATOR: Alright. Other thoughts in this
5 area?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think education is a
7 prime thing. I feel that kids—the present youngsters
8 in school—are getting more information, and I have hope
9 that when they're adults that they will have a greater
10 understanding of what, you know, the cause and effect
11 relationship of some of the stuff that we're doing, the
12 chemicals we're putting on the ground and in the air and
13 how that's affecting us. And right now, last night, I
14 saw in the news about the Silicone Valley and how so
15 many people that have been working in those computer
16 parts places are coming down with cancer now. And they
17 always thought it was so clean and that there wouldn't
18 be any problem, but—you know, I think those kind of
19 stories need to get out. Of course, you know, an issue
20 like the Exxon Valdez, that tremendous oil spill, just
21 had people riveted to the television. But it seems like
22 people look at it, and then three days later they're
23 looking at Monica or something else on television. And
24 it just doesn't seem to connect, as far as what they're
25 doing, that they're burning oil and they're, you know,
26 they had some—what they're doing caused the Exxon
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1 Valdez spill because we're burning a lot of oil and
2 we're burning gasoline and all that sort of thing. And
3 as far as trying to put some limits on our own use of
4 resources and our abuse of resources, I think we need to
5 connect it to the fact that—
6 NEW SPEAKER: Peoples' daily lives.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. That we're a part of the
8 problem. Everybody is, as long as we're going to
9 continue with our old consumer-oriented lives. You
10 know, it's—it's a hard thing to do, but I think
11 youngsters nowadays are getting that. In our local
12 paper every week they have the School Zone—a little
13 insert on the kids in school and some of the comments
14 they make and things that they do. But it's edifying to
15 me to see so many of those kids are now concerned about
16 what is happening to the environment. And I feel that—
17 you know, they're writing about it in paper, and I think
18 they're going to grow up to be a little more concerned
19 than our generation, that kind of felt that there was
20 just plenty of everything out there to exploit. And we
21 just have to kind of get away from that.
22 MODERATOR: Okay. So you mentioned the direct
23 approach to the public through, possibly, TV of some
24 kind, and you mentioned the importance of newspaper
25 articles and the educational system. I'm just wondering
26 if there's anything else that comes to mind in trying to
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1 get an environmentalist's point of view across to the
2 people you're trying to influence.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Well, the—you know, I know with
4 the Nature Conservancy, we have a lot of field trips and
5 taking people out in the woods or along the river—the
6 creek that they're trying to preserve, and making them
7 aware of what's out there. And then, well, the
8 stewardship committee, part of their mission is
9 stewardship, and they monitor boundary lines and care
10 for the—this long—it's about a 15 mile long area on
11 both sides of this wonderful creek that's the main
12 tributary to the Pocomoke River. But I think the
13 people, when they get out there, you know, it gives them
14 a sense of ownership, and those kind of things are good.
15 And I know Assateague Coastal Trust has had boat trips
16 out in the coastal bays, Isle of Wight Bay and
17 Sinepuxent Bay, and I think when the people actually see
18 the bay and can relate to it, it has a new meaning.
19 Then another thing that the Coastal Bay Program has
20 done has been, they've gotten people out monitoring the
21 mating of the horseshoe crabs. And, you know, that's—I
22 think everybody that's gone out to count horseshoe crabs
23 coming up on the shore to lay their eggs is now probably
24 a lover of horseshoe crabs. So it's those kind of
25 things that tie people to the natural system—when they
26 can have a one-to-one experience with something.
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1 MODERATOR: Okay. How do you then make the
2 connection to protection of the wetlands or protection
3 of the habitat of the horseshoe crab? Do you have any
4 thoughts on that?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Well, our bird club—well, it's
6 now the Tri-county Bird Club. You know, we had speakers
7 and talked about the inter-relationship of the shore
8 birds and the horseshoe crabs, and I think that type of
9 relationship—I think people— Again, EPA or the Coastal
10 Bay Program has put out information on horseshoe crabs
11 and telling about how they're used by labs for testing
12 various toxins in blood and in new medicines that are
13 coming out, you know, to see how well they can be
14 assimilated. So I think, you know, it's—the people
15 that are involved are getting this, but then you have
16 the 999 out of 1,000 who aren't involved, and they're
17 the ones who I think are—can't see any problem with
18 over-harvesting of horseshoe crabs or filling of
19 wetlands or whatever. Although there's been a lot in the
20 paper since the Wetlands Act first went into being,
21 which is back in 1972 for the State of Maryland and
22 maybe a little earlier for the Corp of Engineers. But
23 people now, just because of continued publicity—little
24 bits and pieces from time to time—they know that tidal
25 wetlands are sacrosanct, but they still don't have it in
26 their minds about the value of non-tidal wetlands, and
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1 I think a lot more needs to be done to educate people on
2 the value of non-tidal wetlands as far as the regulatory
3 approach. And I'm on the Planning Commission for the
4 County, and I see how plans come through where the staff
5 has not alerted the applicants that they have non-tidal
6 wetlands, and consequently, roads go through them,
7 houses are—you know, they're allowed to fill 5,000
8 square feet, so they just think that they're owed that,
9 and half the yard might be non-tidal wetlands that the
10 people will eventually fill, but they still— You know,
11 I think on the local level, and I think maybe EPA needs
12 to kind of breathe down the backs of the local
13 governments about protecting—the value of protecting
14 non-tidal wetlands, and maybe calling on EPA to give
15 them maps or give them the information that they need so
16 they can look at those—you know, when a plat comes in
17 or a developer comes in and says that they want to
18 develop this 78 acres over here that might be, 50 of it
19 might be non-tidal wetlands, that they are aware of the
20 problems that can be involved, and that the Federal—
21 well, the EPA might be following up on this to make sure
22 that those 50 acres that are non-tidal wetlands aren't
23 impacted. But, uh—
24 NEW SPEAKER: Well, see, how would EPA know
25 about it unless—
26 NEW SPEAKER: But, I meant, you know—
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1 NEW SPEAKER: EPA would have to be told about
2 these various cases and asked to come down and talk to
3 the county officials, because I think the county
4 officials are really being lax in their review of many
5 of these cases.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Absolutely.
7 NEW SPEAKER: And somebody has to get on—onto
8 these officials, and I don't think the State of Maryland
9 is doing a good enough job, so--
10 MODERATOR: Okay. So you're saying there's a
11 possibility that EPA could work with your organization,
12 for instance (urn-hm), to provide useful information for
13 local areas (yes) and possibly expert opinion in some of
14 these cases. Possibly, you're saying also, regulatory—
15 NEW SPEAKER: Well, they need to enforce the
16 law. That's the bottom line.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Right. And, of course, the state
18 has enforcement people, but I don't believe they check
19 all of those cases, do they Ilia?
20 NEW SPEAKER: And they don't have enough people
21 to do the work, and maybe that's EPA's problem. You
22 know, I know during the Reagan Administration EPA lost
23 a lot of its good people. They just cut EPA ruthlessly,
24 so that a lot of the staff that they had either left—
25 well, or there was just attrition and nobody re-hired.
26 So, you know, I think they need to beef up and start
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1 reading the riot act to some of these counties and
2 areas—well, in the states, too—for protecting their
3 resources.
4 MODERATOR: Okay. So it might be helpful to
5 you to know more about the regulatory activities and who
6 regulates in Maryland or in your area.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
8 MODERATOR: Okay. You brought up the question
9 of what does EPA have. And let me just mention a few
10 facts here. The EPA administers 31 major environmental
11 databases, 123 major Web pages, and 50 hotlines—over 50
12 hotlines. They have libraries and public information
13 centers in each of its headquarters and regional
14 offices. They administer several major public
15 distribution centers. And you said you would like to
16 know more about these resources.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Availability, yeah.
18 MODERATOR: Okay. People have told us they
19 simply don't know what information EPA has, and they
20 said it would help to advertise what they—
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
22 MODERATOR: You said you would find that
23 helpful. Okay. What do think about EPA using TV, radio
24 ads, posters on buses, or billboards to tell the public,
25 or to tell people like yourselves who use this
26 information, what's out there?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I think anything.
2 NEW SPEAKER: I was just going to say that.
3 Anything. Yeah.
4 MODERATOR: Okay. What would you say to people
5 who suggest that these non-traditional means of getting
6 the word out are a waste of taxpayer dollars.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Why would you—what is
8 traditional means, if these are non-traditional? I
9 mean, I guess I would feel as though those are pretty
10 average ways to reach the public. I feel as though it's
11 the government's responsibility to educate the public,
12 to let them know what the resources are, so that they
13 can make wiser choices about the way they do things and
14 live their lives.
15 MODERATOR: Okay. Now you, as leaders of
16 organizations and active in environmental organizations,
17 is there some particular way that would be helpful to
18 you to find out about more of what's out there?
19 NEW SPEAKER: Well, does EPA have a newsletter?
20 I know they used to have a magazine that I subscribed to
21 years ago that kind of kept you abreast of different
22 issues. Of course, it was a national publication and it
23 was for the entire country. But if they could have—
24 like Region III, which would be this Mid-Atlantic area—
25 if they had some kind of newsletter, or if they had a
26 directory of offices and who to contact in the office
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1 for what resource they have or how they could help. Or,
2 for instance, if you had a fishkill, who would you call?
3 Well, I know in the State of Maryland, and maybe that's
4 where we should be begin—in the state. But, also, on
5 a national level, is there an office—is there somebody
6 to call in EPA? Suppose there would be a major chemical
7 spill around that I know EPA would have to be involved
8 in, but who would you call? I don't know where you'd
9 begin to find that out. And, you know, I think that
10 kind of information would be very helpful, and to keep
11 it up-to-date every year, so you know who to—what
12 office there is and then their telephone number, and
13 preferably an 800 number.
14 NEW SPEAKER: And E-mail addresses. I think a
15 directory would be very useful. A newsletter, to me, I
16 guess coming into my office, I get scads of newsletters.
17 And I often just do not have time to read through them.
18 There's probably a lot of good information there that
19 I'm missing, but just don't have time to do. But I
20 think if I had a directory that was, perhaps, cross-
21 referenced or—sometimes directories are listed under
22 ways that are logical to the agency, and, perhaps, not
23 logical—
24 NEW SPEAKER: To the user.
25 NEW SPEAKER: To the user, yeah.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. What kind of—in your mind,
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1 what would be helpful to you?
2 NEW SPEAKER: As far how the directory—
3 MODERATOR: How to set up the directory, yeah.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I can't think of a specific
5 example. But certainly, it would have to—you would
6 have to—maybe not cross-reference is the right way, but
7 in the listings under each department, perhaps, have
8 some information on what the responsibilities of that
9 department or that person is.
10 MODERATOR: Okay. Now would this cover state,
11 regional, Federal?
12 NEW SPEAKER: I guess, I have a—
13 NEW SPEAKER: Probably state? Or, regional, I
14 guess.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, it would have to be
16 regional. Because I know the State of Maryland puts out
17 a directory from the Department of the Environment and
18 one from the Department of Natural Resources, which are
19 the two agencies that I work most closely with.
20 And they have the Director and the Under Secretaries and
21 all that with their telephone numbers. And then they
22 have, depending on which group it is, you know, thinking
23 of DNR, it would be, like, the fisheries or land
24 acquisition—you know, there are big headings—and then
25 the person who's in charge, and then under them would be
26 the various people and their telephone numbers that work
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1 under those areas. And the same way with Department of
2 the Environment, would have the Secretary and the upper
3 hierarchy. And then they have someone—well, they have
4 wetlands, tidal and non-tidal, and air quality, and the
5 head of the department, and then underneath would be—
6 this person's responsibility is for that, and such and
7 such. So I keep those right with my telephone book, and
8 if I need to contact one of those persons, I—or don't
9 know who they are—I can look in there and find them and
10 get in touch with them. And I think EPA could do the
11 same thing, although I would think their directory would
12 be like a telephone book. But, you know, if it could be
13 condensed, because I know EPA covers a lot of ground,
14 but just to give you an overview of what they do and who
15 to contact in each department would be the tremendous
16 help.
17 MODERATOR: You mentioned that it would be
18 helpful to you to know fishkill—who to call, which is
19 a slightly different way of setting up that directory.
20 Or it could be an additional way. What do you think?
21 NEW SPEAKER. Um-hm. Well, I would almost
22 think that would come under fisheries, and of course
23 maybe they don't—maybe EPA doesn't have that much
24 control over fisheries as, maybe, Fish and Wildlife
25 Service does. And, uh—but I'll have to admit, my own
26 ignorance as far as knowing the boundaries of what EPA
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1 does do. You know, it's this group up there in
2 Philadelphia or Washington, and I know some of what they
3 do, but I'm sure they have a lot more responsibility
4 than I'm aware of and— but I—you know, it's just sort
5 of a well-kept secret.
6 MODERATOR: Well, it sounds like for some
7 things, if it's clearly beyond EPA or it's another
8 agency, that you would like to know that in this
9 directory, too—that it doesn't just have to be EPA. If
10 it concerns whatever you're working on, maybe it is
11 another Federal agency or the Army Corp of Engineers or
12 a local group. But that could be helpful to know that.
13 Okay.
14 NEW SPEAKER: But since you're working for EPA,
15 as I think you are, at least we'd know—if I had that
16 information from EPA, I would probably look through it
17 when I got the directory just to kind of familiarize
18 myself with what's their responsibility, and then I
19 wouldn't waste time, maybe, calling them about a
20 fishkill. I'd call somebody else. You know, Fish and
21 Wildlife, or whoever's responsible for that.
22 MODERATOR: Okay. Any other thoughts in this
23 area? What would be helpful to you? Okay. Alright.
24 I want to make sure we're covering everything. Are
25 there any 800 numbers that you really recommend that
26 have been really helpful to you, either in EPA or
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1 elsewhere?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I use Department of the,
3 Maryland Department of the Environment quite a bit,
4 calling particularly in wetland cases. You know, I have
5 a number that I use to contact any number of agencies
6 with the Department of the Environment, but I think
7 that's about the only one I have that I've been able to
8 use. But it would be nice to be able to get other
9 information.
10 MODERATOR: What's helpful about that number?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it saves my telephone bill,
12 particularly if you have to be on it for a long time.
13 You know, just on an economic—and since we pay—our
14 telephone bill for our organization comes out of Joe's
15 and my pocket. [Laughter]
16 MODERATOR: Okay. Is there anything about the
17 service they give that's helpful at this 800 number?
18 NEW SPEAKER: They give as good a service—you
19 know, all you do is, the girl that answers the phone
20 will direct your call to whoever. You just ask for that
21 particular—I use their directory, see, and then I can
22 ask for the telephone number for the person I want to
23 talk to, and it saves a lot of money over the course of
24 a year.
25 MODERATOR: Any other 800 numbers you're
26 familiar with or want to tell us what was good about
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1 them?
2 NEW SPEAKER: They're always good to use.
3 MODERATOR: Okay. Now you mentioned E-mail.
4 Have you had some good experiences with E-mail
5 inquiries?
6 NEW SPEAKER: You know, now that I think about
7 it, when I mentioned that I had asked for some handouts
8 for children, I think that was an E-mail inquiry. But
9 I don't know where I got that E-mail address from. It
10 might have been on some literature that we had in the
11 office. But I did make that request by E-mail.
12 MODERATOR: Alright. Are you on a listserve
13 for EPA? Various kinds of, like, automatic information
14 that comes though.
15 NEW SPEAKER: No. I'm not. [Laughter] And
16 I'm hesitant to because, well, everyone knows what it's
17 like to open up your E-mail and have 50 messages.
18 [Laughter]
19 MODERATOR: Right. It's another newsletter.
20 Or 50 of them.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
22 MODERATOR: Yeah, okay. Alright. Okay. I was
23 starting to get into this area of how EPA ought to
24 possibly work with other agencies, that is, if it's an
25 area that several agencies or groups are concerned
26 about. You know, are there ways that it can make it
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1 easier for people that are interested in a fishkill to
2 get to the right agency? I just wondered if there's
3 anything else you want to add to that area. Any
4 experiences you've had with a topic, that it would have
5 been helpful if—?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think of some wetland
7 cases that I would have, urn—I know Fish and Wildlife
8 has jurisdiction over some aspects of wetlands, and EPA,
9 and of course the Corp has the greatest jurisdiction.
10 But it would be nice to know how, in varying degrees,
11 what aspect of wetlands and how to couch your terms,
12 because I know sometimes just the wording you use—it's
13 like asking for a grant. You've got to write it and,
14 you know, ask it with the right words. And, you know,
15 if you were aware of some of the terminology that they
16 are looking for—each agency—that would be a big help.
17 But just to know what aspect of wetlands Fish and
18 Wildlife's taken and National Marine Fisheries and Army
19 Corp of Engineers and EPA. I've just kind of been
20 struggling along, making my best guess, but not knowing
21 exactly what's what.
22 MODERATOR: Okay. Navigating the different
23 agencies.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Throw myself on their mercy.
2 [Laughter]
3 NEW SPEAKER: Back to pesticides, I'm not sure
4 that there's anything that could be done, because states
5 have jurisdiction and have the ability to make their own
6 regulations when it comes to so many things. But I know
7 in looking, getting information from EPA about the use
8 of a particular pesticide that they use in Maryland and
9 in our county, and with the R-E-D—what was that anyway-
10 -the re-registration document that came out—there were
11 specific cautions that were in the document from EPA,
12 such as—children shouldn't be outside, you shouldn't
13 hang your clothes outside. I can't remember them all.
14 But there was—when that pesticide is sprayed in
15 Maryland, there's absolutely no information given to the
16 public about that. But again, I think that's probably
17 because the state doesn't want to do that. They
18 obviously don't feel that it's necessary. But it sure
19 would be nice to have EPA be able to provide that
20 information to the public, and I don't know how that
21 would be accomplished. It's not very helpful, I know.
22 MODERATOR: Okay. It's an area that you have
23 a concern about. Alright. One of the things that we'd
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1 like to leave tonight with is a wish list of ways in
2 which EPA can be more helpful to you. So let us try to
3 come up with three or four items, processes, activities
4 that you want to suggest to Region III and Federal—they
5 work together—that would make information flow to you
6 in a more useful way, or get you more useful
7 information. It could be any aspect of the information
8 chain or—
9 NEW SPEAKER: Something different than what
10 we've talked about, as far as the directory?
11 MODERATOR: No, you can go back. You can
12 revisit and say—you know, it's really critical. We're
13 already talked about this, and I really want to get this
14 out on the table. So whatever you'd like to put out
15 there.
16 NEW SPEAKER: You know, some of my dealing
17 with—well, I was going to say people with EPA, because
18 some of those folks have been working on the Coastal
19 Bays Program. They try to put some of the information,
20 or, at least, the information out for the general
21 public, in a warm and fuzzy way instead of giving, I
22 think, the detailed information that really is necessary
23 if you really need to wake people up. You know, I think
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1 it's important to say, for instance with wetlands, that
2 in Maryland 60,000 acres of wetlands have been lost and
3 we wanted—through drainage and through filling and
4 whatnot—but, you know, to cite the numbers and to say
5 that it's resulting in more flooding, and has resulted
6 recently in flooding damages, and list the places. And
7 have more detailed information. At least I would find
8 that more helpful. And I know the Coastal Bay Program
9 has wanted to make things more concise and palatable to
10 the public, but I think they're, in turn, talking down
11 to the public. Like patting them on the head and
12 saying—look, little children, there are some problems
13 with the bay, but generally it's in good condition—
14 instead of saying that there are specific tributaries
15 that have had problems, and list what those problems
16 were. And so people would kind of have that as a
17 background, because if they ever need information, they
18 don't have any idea about the—how long there have been
19 pollution problems persisting. I know up on the St.
20 Martin's River there was a tremendous problem with the
21 [inaudible] Processing Plant many years ago that still
22 has repercussions in that river today. And, you know,
23 I think they need to know some of the history and amount
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1 of degradation that occurred in order to get a handle on
2 what's causing some of the problems that we have today.
3 So I think it—we need to get a little bit of the
4 history of the problem and the problems as it affects
5 people today. That seafood is still—you know,
6 shellfish can still not be consumed out of that river,
7 and to let them know why. And it's such a growing area,
8 and the amount of growth, the people that are zipping
9 around in their water skis that just don't realize what
10 they're going through and stirring up on the bottom when
11 they get near the shoreline. So, you know, I think
12 those kind of— Of course, a lot of the local merchants
13 don't want people to know that because they won't be
14 able to sell the real estate then, maybe. But I think
15 that people ought to be told that they have that to
16 contend with in case their kids get ear problems or eye
17 problems or stomach problems.
18 MODERATOR: Okay. For example—
19 NEW SPEAKER: You know, the health effects of—
20 MODERATOR: Health effects. Okay. Any
21 specific way this information should get out?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Well, right now they're—we're—
23 NEW SPEAKER: I—oh, go ahead.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: We're working on this
2 comprehensive management plan for the coastal bays, and
3 I think.that—it's maybe too late to get it in there—
4 but that could have spelled out more of these types of
5 problems that people know that we're working to try to
6 remedy or lessen the effects of.
7 NEW SPEAKER: But we're still reaching such a
8 small number of people. [Agreement] I was just
9 thinking about a program that one of the local stations
10 does, I don't know, a couple of nights a week, I think,
11 called "Outdoor Maryland.' Not the PBS station, the one
12 that Steve Dawson does. And it's a local fellow that
13 really relates to the—
14 NEW SPEAKER: The fishermen.
15 NEW SPEAKER: The fishermen and the hunters.
16 And he goes out, and he's catching fish and he's just
17 talking about what a—if there was some way to have a—
18 what do you think it is—two minutes, three minute spot?
19 Somehow relate the environmental issues to the people in
20 the local areas. And it's a weekly thing. I think it's
21 on twice a week, isn't it?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. I know I've seen it on
23 Friday. Thursday or Friday.
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1 MODERATOR: Okay.
2 NEW SPEAKER: It comes on lunch time and in the
3 evening.
4 MODERATOR: It's kind of an outreach to
5 fishermen and hunters, the people who are not normally
6 thought of as, like, environmentalists, but have a
7 definite interest here.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Right, right.
9 NEW SPEAKER: You made a good point.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Of course, it would be to
11 everyone.
12 NEW SPEAKER: You know, I mean, that's what
13 they're doing now. He goes out and, you know, he's
14 hunting or he's literally fishing. And, you know, he's-
15 -the camera is on his boat catching fish. But if you
16 could somehow do a twice-a-week program that looks at
17 the—
18 NEW SPEAKER: Maybe at the horseshoe crabs.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Well, yeah. You know, this is
20 your—I don't know how you put it. I mean, Ilia says
21 don't make it warm and fuzzy. On the other hand, it has
22 to be interesting to people—something that they can
23 relate to. But, I mean, urn—I can't—I'm not thinking
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1 of specifics, but I'm just thinking of how effective
2 that little program is, and people—and you watch it
3 because it's on the nightly news at 6:30.
4 NEW SPEAKER: For instance, there's this crab
5 disease in the bay. You know, I think that ought to be
6 in the news too, but it's be sort of squelched because
7 it's not a very—
8 [ TAPE FLIP ]
9 NEW SPEAKER: —could do a session on sea level
10 rise, and they could do a session on—
11 NEW SPEAKER: Wetlands.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Wetlands, yeah.
13 MODERATOR: Okay, so—
14 NEW SPEAKER: And riparian forests.
15 [Agreement]
16 MODERATOR: So it would be a different approach
17 to environmental issues—sort of going through local
18 interests.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hin.
20 MODERATOR: Okay.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Have a regular—what do you call
22 them—the person that's on that program every week that
23 just chooses—
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1 MODERATOR: The M.C., or—?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Right. That just chooses
3 the subject for that week.
4 NEW SPEAKER: But you're talking about
5 something in addition to Steve Dawson—
6 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
7 NEW SPEAKER: To talk about some of the local
8 issues rather than fishing and hunting and stuff like
9 that, that everybody kind of relates to and it's nice to
10 see, but with environmental issues, for instance, with
11 the crab disease or the Pfiesteria problem. You know,
12 if they'd show pictures of the—of some of the areas—
13 Well, of course, there was a lot on the news when it was
14 a big hot-button issue, but now they're finding a couple
15 of the creeks in Worcester County that drained into the
16 coastal bays that have the same type of organism, but it
17 just hasn't evolved into the Pfiesteria—to the
18 threatening stage. But at least to make the people
19 aware of that. But right now the people just aren't
20 aware of that, and, to me, the only—most people watch
21 the evening news, and they'd be aware if that would be
22 on the evening news.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Something like a ~This Old
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1 House,' only this week it's—not dumping your oil from
2 your car down the drain, or something. Simple little
3 things that relate to people every day lives.
4 [Agreement] I'm thinking—how can you help protect our
5 water? And relate it back to what we all need—clean
6 air and clean water.
7 NEW SPEAKER: And spraying of pesticides and—
8 you know, I know there have been instances of bird kills
9 and things like that, and people that are sensitive
10 getting sick from the use of pesticides, and people just
11 need to be made more aware of that and that it is an
12 issue.
13 MODERATOR: Okay.
14 NEW SPEAKER: And all the beautiful lawns we
15 see around here are chemically treated.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
17 MODERATOR: The implications? Okay.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. And then, people dumping
19 their grass and lawn clippings overboard, and what it's
20 doing to the marine environment when it decays and takes
21 out the oxygen in the water, and what happens then to
22 the fish and benthic organisms on the bay bottom. So,
23 you know, there are just a lot—we could come up with a
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1 whole long list, couldn't we? [Laughter]
2 NEW SPEAKER: We'll keep them busy for a couple
3 of years.
4 MODERATOR: Well, these are great in terms of
5 the environmental issues, but tell me a little bit more
6 about how you want to get information, or how you want
7 to find information. Okay, now these are good too.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
9 NEW SPEAKER: We need some sort of a directory,
10 as we were talking about before, of the various
11 departments and who to contact, their telephone numbers,
12 what they do, what the various departments'
13 responsibilities are, and—
14 MODERATOR: Responsibilities. E-mail, you
15 mentioned?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
17 MODERATOR: Okay.
18 NEW SPEAKER: And, perhaps, also a—and I'm
19 sure it's available—a directory of publications that
20 are available.
21 NEW SPEAKER: That's a good idea. And some of
22 this would go down to people like Ilia and me, who are
23 not at the computer or resource to E-mail and the Web
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1 and all that sort of thing. The old-fashioned people.
2 MODERATOR: Okay. So it needs to be in print.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
5 MODERATOR: Okay.
6 NEW SPEAKER: And then, um, I know I've learned
7 a lot just by attending conferences that I know have
8 been partly, or at least, or maybe fully supported by
9 EPA. And then just reading publications—I get lists of
10 environmental publications that I order for topics that
11 I'm involved or interested in, so—
12 NEW SPEAKER: From EPA? You get those lists
13 now?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Not from EPA, but there's a
15 couple of, um, book publishers that publish their—they
16 publish environmental books, and they send their mailing
17 list and, or their list of their new publications, and
18 I can order them.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. So you mentioned
20 conferences, and I remember that came up early in terms
21 of trying to understand who you could trust in the
22 field.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm. Symposiums. You know,
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1 any kind of public—you know, where the public that's
2 interested can attend and maybe hear the speakers and/or
3 get information—written information.
4 MODERATOR: Uh-huh. Conference, workshops,
5 okay. Lists of publications.
6 NEW SPEAKER: There's the big problem of still
7 how to get people interested, and how to get them over
8 their apathy, and—
9 NEW SPEAKER: And, you know, I think—
10 NEW SPEAKER: A disaster. A disaster gets them
11 over their apathy. [Laughter]
12 NEW SPEAKER: That's right. [Laughter]
13 MODERATOR: Okay. Is there anything that we
14 talked about, or—well, I mean, it seems to me that
15 these two are particularly dealing with some of that
16 issue. What else?
17 NEW SPEAKER: I don't know. My mind's kind of
18 gone. [Laughter]
19 MODERATOR: And you did mention education,
20 certainly.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Definitely.
23 MODERATOR: Although that's not exactly, urn—
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1 the name, it should probably say a related mission that
2 EPA has in several different ways. Okay. We left
3 anything off that we talked about or that you really
4 want the people in Philadelphia to hear?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Well, they should have sent out
6 more information about this meeting so we get more
7 people around the table. You know, I think they need
8 more public relations, and maybe they're making a step
9 ahead by—or, you know, getting a foot up, at least, by
10 hiring you to help with this. But, you know, as far as
11 to let everybody know that you were here to do this, I
12 think that there was a gap somewhere.
13 MODERATOR: Um-hm. Well, thank you for filling
14 the gap as well as you did. Okay. You've been a
15 terrific group. Let me ask you if there's anything else
16 you want to get on the table about information or EPA in
17 general. Anything you thought of you didn't get a
18 chance to say.
19 NEW SPEAKER: You've picked our brains..
20 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
21 MODERATOR: And you've been great. Alright.
22 I've got one last thing to ask of you, and then the
23 folks will come in with their little information kinds
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1 of things. You can ask them any questions you'd like.
2 This takes about five minutes. It's print. [Laughter]
3 And it will help us understand what you need and what
4 you've got to work with. Thanks. Thanks for being a
5 great group.
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They have a pretty active network of environmental organizations in Maryland with some very
knowledgeable people. And— I'm trying to think of a particular issue that we might have worked on. I
know I get a lot of information from the Clean Water Network and Coast Alliance, because they're focussed
on coastal areas. And a lot of that information I get by-through E-mail newsletters.
I'm on the board of directors for Coast Alliance, and I get, you know, their information. Then there—at the
Maryland Conservation Council keeps us abreast of legislation during the Maryland legislative session, and
if I need information I can go to them or their directory. I guess through the years we've kind of developed a
list of people that we can go to.
I don't have an inkling of how they-where I could go in EPA. We need to have, like, an 800 number. We
need to have a directory, or some kind of information database that tells us what they have that we could use.
But it just seems to be that they're in their ivory tower, and I know that they review some wetland cases, and
I know that they review a lot different things. But, you know, who do you contact and where do you go?
I just have to take the word of a scientist talking about coastal issues, even though some of the scientists
seem-- 1 mean, it depends on who's looking at it. Orrin Pilkey is a very controversial person because he's
telling people what they don't want to hear, but I think he has a lot of credibility and what he says is true, or
else he wouldn't have the renowned that he does. So, you know, I think the scientists that have a legitimate
following and, you know, he teaches at Duke and I think a lot of people attend his classes and hang on every
word so I, you know, I'm just counting on his credibility, and I do. I'm the same way with wetland research.
You just have to take peoples' word for it, and then your own observations out in the field.
And one other thing that I might say. When we read about the scientific opinions, if they work to our benefit
we tend to believe it, I think.
It is tough, though, when you're just looking at an article and you don't know the author, to know how much
credence to put into it because, I mean, we all know that science can be skewed one way or another. When I
was dealing with pesticide issues, I guess I would rely on the national organizations that have— that that was
their issue.
[The need for timely information] varies a lot, depending on whether there is an issue that's-there's going
to be a hearing in a couple of weeks and you need to write comments on, or whether it's something like the,
the national sanctuaries that, you know, we're thinking of down the road, and— It just varies from issue to
issue, I think.
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you have to be careftil sometimes when you use local experts, particularly when it can be a very heated issue
that the local politicians are quite involved in, maybe, themselves. You might of found out after the fact, so
to speak. But this is all stuff that happens on a local level. I don't think you'd find so much of that in calling
on EPA
I've know him for a numbers of years and been reading the work that he's done, and he has sent me
information, sometimes a comment on, as far as my views of what I see in the field as far as what he is
writing. And, I mean, as I say, it seems to have a lot of credibility as far as I'm concerned. And, I mean,
he's one person that I feel I can get information from. And, through the Coastal Bay Program, I think we've
gotten a lot of information through EPA. But otherwise, it's been-I don't know what's available or how to
get hold of it.
I would like to see the government do more public education, and I think the medium is—it's the public
media-is television or radio or- I mean, there so many things that the majority of us know need to change
But if the common people~you know, the average citizen isn't interested, doesn't have a clue, and unless
they're beaten over the head with it or given some very simple information-and I don't know exactly how
you do this—but we need to start changing attitudes. And if there's a 30 minute~30 second spot on
television in prime time that starts talking about-somehow relating that price that we're paying for our
goods and our food is not the true cost of that product, that in the end we're paying for having to clean up
after the industry pollutes and the farm, factory farms pollute. Somehow or other, make the public aware
that buying things cheap, we're paying down the road in our health and in our taxes in having to clean up
things. And I think that that would help us all a lot in being able to accomplish our missions if we could
start turning that attitude, or at least making people more aware. Sure there are stories on the nightly news
and there are stories in the newspaper, but it just needs to be more of a constant-some kind of message out
there.
I feel as though it's the government's responsibility to educate the public, to let them know what the
resources are, so that they can make wiser choices about the way they do things and live their lives.
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if they could have—like Region HI, which would be this Mid-Atlantic area--if they had some kind of
newsletter, or if they had a directory of offices and who to contact in the office for what resource they have
or how they could help. Or, for instance, if you had a fishkill, who would you call? Well, I know in the
State of Maryland, and maybe that's where we should be begin—in the state. But, also, on a national level,
is there an office-is there somebody to call in EPA? Suppose there would be a major chemical spill around
that I know EPA would have to be involved in, but who would you call? I don't know where you'd begin to
find that out. And, you know, I think that kind of information would be very helpful, and to keep it up-to-
date every year, so you know who to--what office there is and then their telephone number, and preferably
an 800 number.
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Well, I think of some wetland cases that I would have, um-I know Fish and Wildlife has jurisdiction over
some aspects of wetlands, and EPA, and of course the Corp has the greatest jurisdiction. But it would be
nice to know how, in varying degrees, what aspect of wetlands and how to couch your terms, because I
know sometimes just the wording you use-it's like asking for a grant. You've got to write it and, you know,
ask it with the right words. And, you know, if you were aware of some of the terminology that they are
looking for—each agency-that would be a big help. But just to know what aspect of wetlands Fish and
Wildlife's taken and National Marine Fisheries and Army Corp of Engineers and EPA. I've just kind of
been struggling along, making my best guess, but not knowing exactly what's what.
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Back to pesticides, I'm not sure that there's anything that could be done, because states have jurisdiction
and have the ability to make their own regulations when it comes to so many things. But I know in looking,
getting information from EPA about the use of a particular pesticide that they use in Maryland and in our
county, and with the R-E-D~what was that anyway-the re-registration document that came out-there were
specific cautions that were in the document from EPA, such as—children shouldn't be outside, you shouldn't
hang your clothes outside. I can't remember them all. But there was—when that pesticide is sprayed in
Maryland, there's absolutely no information given to the public about that. But again, I think that's
probably because the state doesn't want to do that. They obviously don't feel that it's necessary. But it sure
would be nice to have EPA be able to provide that information to the public
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50 16 M t=health You know, some of my dealing with-well, I was going to say people with EPA, because some of those folks
have been working on the Coastal Bays Program. They try to put some of the information, or, at least, the
information out for the general public, in a warm and fuzzy way instead of giving, I think, the detailed
information that really is necessary if you really need to wake people up. You know, I think it's important to
say, for instance with wetlands, that in Maryland 60,000 acres of wetlands have been lost and we wanted--
through drainage and through filling and whatnot-but, you know, to cite the numbers and to say that it's
resulting in more flooding, and has resulted recently in flooding damages, and list the places. And have
more detailed information. At least I would find that more helpful. And I know the Coastal Bay Program
has wanted to make things more concise and palatable to the public, but I think they're, in turn, talking
down to the public. Like patting them on the head and saying-look, little children, there are some problems
with the bay, but generally it's in good condition-instead of saying that there are specific tributaries that
have had problems, and list what those problems were. And so people would kind of have that as a
background, because if they ever need information, they don't have any idea about the—how long there have
been pollution problems persisting... I think that people ought to be told that they have that to contend
with in case their kids get ear problems or eye problems or stomach problems.
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U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region III
Public Meeting on Environmental information
+ + + + +
York, PA, Small Business Discussion Group
+ + + + +
March 16, 1999
The Outreach Discussion met in York, Pennsylvania
at 6:30 p.m. to 8:30 p.m., Laurie Davidson, moderator.
PRESENT;
BARRY BURKHOLDER, Barry's Paint Shop
DALE I. KAPLAN, Kaplan Drycleaners
CHARLES RUPP, Y-E-P Industries Inc.
QUAY F. SMITH, A.D.F.
DAVID R. SOLLENBERGER, Electroplaters of York, Inc.
J. THOMAS ZECH, ASP of PA (Auto Service DLR)
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1 MODERATOR: —Princeton Economic Research and
2 I drove up from Rockville, Maryland today. And we are
3 consultants to the EPA. I am not an EPA employee. So
4 if you tell me you like something or you dislike
5 something, that's fine with me. I just want to hear
6 what your view is on the matter. Okay? We are trying
7 to get an understanding of your information needs—good
8 experiences, bad experiences—that sort of thing.
9 That's what I'm here to do tonight. We've got a bunch
10 of questions. Sometimes I'll have to say—sorry, got to
11 move along! At the end of this session we have some
12 information for you, which might be helpful. And
13 perhaps you'll bring up some issues that people who are
14 going to be watching and listening will be able to
15 answer. I'm not, like I say, an EPA employee, so if you
16 have a specific question we're going to let them answer
17 those questions. As I said, they're holding a series of
18 meeting throughout the Mid-Atlantic states, and they
19 have included librarians, environmental educators, press
20 people, local environmental group leaders, and business
21 people like yourselves. Each session is going to be
22 evaluated independently and have its own report, and
23 senior management is going to take what comes out of
24 this session and put it into action. And that's one
25 reason why we need your addresses, to help tell you
26 what's going on. As I said, the group lasts two hours.
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1 We are audio taping and video taping. Like you said,
2 we're on camera. That's basically so we don't have to
3 take notes tonight, but we will be transcribing it and
4 working it over pretty thoroughly afterwards.
5 Guidelines for participation. It's a public meeting,
6 and eventually, if anybody wanted to get the
7 information, it would be accessible to them, but we
8 don't think you're going to be on CNN anytime soon.
9 Like I said, it's basically for us to help the EPA
10 figure out their program. The information is going to
11 come out of your discussion, and if you discuss with
12 each other that will be very helpful. If, for instance,
13 Quay has a disagreement with David, just say that. That
14 helps the discussion move along. It will bring out
15 important kinds of points. It makes it real
16 interesting.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Does it have to pertain to this?
18 [Laughter]
19 MODERATOR: Well, part of my job is to keep us
20 on track!
21 NEW SPEAKER: We're going to keep it within the
22 EPA guidelines. [Laughter]
23 MODERATOR: I know we're missing basketball
24 tonight, but maybe it will be still on when we get back.
25 Alright. Please feel free to get up and walk around and
26 get refreshments outside, to stretch, use the restrooms.
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1 They're down the hall as you came in. And you don't
2 have to wait to be called on. We want to hear both
3 positive and negative ideas. We need to hear both.
4 And, let's see. You're going to do most of the talking
5 after this, and I'm going to start by asking you to
6 introduce yourself. We'll go around the circle. Tell
7 us a little bit about your business or the organization
8 you represent. I think we'll start right here with
9 Barry.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. I'm Barry Burkholder. I
11 own and operate a body shop in Ephrata, Pennsylvania.
12 Also, I have a computer business, which is a separate
13 business. And I'm here for—through the association
14 ASP. That's Autobody Service Professionals. And—
15 anything else you need to—?
16 MODERATOR: That's great. That's a good start,
17 and then we'll go on and—
18 NEW SPEAKER: My name is Quay Smith, and our
19 company is Advanced Deburring and Finishing. We are
20 primarily a sales organization. We sell industrial
21 deburring, cleaning, and finishing machinery. We supply
22 items and services that go with that. That's what we
23 do.
24 NEW SPEAKER: My name is Tom Zech. I'm with
25 ASP, the Auto Service Professionals of Pennsylvania. I
26 own an auto repair service—mechanical side of it rather
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1 than the collision side. Our offices are in Harrisburg.
2 I'm out of York.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Dale Kaplan. I have two dry
4 cleaning stores in the Camp Hill, Mechanicsburg area.
5 I'm Vice President for Government Relations for the
6 Pennsylvania Dry Cleaners, and on Board of Directors of
7 our National Association of Dry Cleaners. And
8 interested in helping EPA.
9 NEW SPEAKER: My name's David Sollenberger.
10 I'm President and owner of Electroplaters of York.
11 We're a job contract shop. Employ 63 full time people.
12 I'm a member of the National Association of Metal
13 Finishers. I'm the Advertisement Chairman for the
14 American Electroplaters and Surface Finishers Society,
15 local branch of Susquehanna Valley. And we have a lot
16 of things to consider when it comes to environment in
17 our business.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Charles Rupp. I'm vice president
19 of Y-E-P Industries in York. We're a custom
20 manufacturer of all types of control systems. And this
21 includes everything from the actual cutting of the metal
22 to the painting process, which involves EPA, and all up
23 through completion of testing and putting out on job
24 sites. Also a member of the York County Chamber of
25 Commerce Board of Directors.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. We have a distinguished
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1 group here tonight. Alright. To get us started, I'm
2 going to ask what sort of environmental information do
3 you need to run your business or the businesses you
4 represent? What sort of environmental information? I'm
5 going to go to the board and get some of this down.
6 NEW SPEAKER: A little bit of everything,
7 really.
8 NEW SPEAKER: I guess I'd put—how to do it.
9 What you really need to comply with on a monthly basis,
10 and in laymen's terms.
11 NEW SPEAKER: I'll underline the word laymen's
12 terms. [Laughter]
13 NEW SPEAKER: I'll second that.
14 NEW SPEAKER: How to do it is probably a
15 certain thing, because a lot of times the things you
16 see, they don't really tell you how to do it, just that
17 you've got to do this. But how to get it done, that's—
18 For a lot us there are one or two men in the shops and
19 things like that. Spending the time figuring out how to
20 do it, it takes too long.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, we just don't—you don't do
22 it. You don't have the time to do it. You can't—it
23 doesn't allow you the time to figure out how to do it.
24 NEW SPEAKER: We want it fast, easy, concise,
25 blocks, made so it's easy to fill in and comply.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Don't make us figure out to do it
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1 because that's not our job. We figure out how to fix
2 the cars—that stuff. You know, that's what we know how
3 to do—not how to do, how to comply.
4 MODERATOR: So it' s~
5 NEW SPEAKER: Easy to fill out.
6 MODERATOR: —it's easy to fill out. Okay. Is
7 that what you were saying?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I was more in the—if they
9 have methods they—of how to comply. The methods of how
10 to comply.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Like a step one, step two—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Just how to do it. You
13 know, they tell you this has to be done, but they don't
14 tell you how to do it. Sometimes you—okay, it has to
15 be done, but how do you do it? You know, we're not
16 engineers.
17 NEW SPEAKER: What technology is available?
18 I think that is a big thing. The vast resources of all
19 the three digit organizations, they get in places. They
20 know what's working and what isn't working. You don't
21 necessarily have to tell people who has it or what, but
22 it would sure be nice to have some place where you could
23 go and gleam the technology that works. There's nothing
24 worse in this world than having somebody come in that
25 say they're going to solve all your problems, and we've
26 got this black box. And when they say "black box, '
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1 that's the end of it for me, because if they're not
2 willing to show me how everything works, then I'm not
3 interested in it.
4 NEW SPEAKER: And in our business a lot of the
5 information comes from people trying to sell you things.
6 This is what you have to do to comply. [Agreement] And
7 not coming from people that don't have, uh—
8 NEW SPEAKER: An economic gain.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Economic gain. And sometimes
10 it's misinformation too. We get—just directing you on
11 their product.
12 NEW SPEAKER: There's so much of that that goes
13 on. I mean, just the complication of a lot of the
14 regulations and everything that the EPA puts out. You
15 need a Philadelphia lawyer to explain it to you in the
16 first place. That's what I find. You know, I'm a
17 simple person. You know, I have a business. I have
18 enough headaches, and every time a new law or new
19 regulation—let's call them regulations, because most of
20 them are not laws—comes out, then we have another
21 headache to deal with.
22 MODERATOR: Okay. So you're telling me that
23 regulations—it sounds like what everybody's talked
24 about so far—and how to comply with it, how to do it in
25 easy to understand terms and easy to comply with terms
26 would be—
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I would say it would also need to
2 be industry-specific so, you know, this— Basically, you
3 [inaudible] This is for body shop, for, you know—
4 different industry-specific guidelines so that you don't
5 have to try and sort through all kinds of other stuff
6 that doesn't pertain to you.
7 MODERATOR: Now all of this so far has been
8 about regulations, it sounds like. Is there anything
9 else?
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. That's our general biggest
11 concern. We're all different industries, but yet, isn't
12 it— I mean, you're a bigger operation. I only employ
13 38 people, but I still say to people, when I get in
14 these kind of forums, that you gotta remember the
15 average dry cleaner has seven to ten people in their
16 shop. When they're doing their regulation monthly work,
17 or whatever they've got to do to fill out, they're doing
18 it at home on their kitchen table. These are generally
19 simple, working people that can't employ—don't have the
20 money or the resources for an environmental engineer or
21 environmental attorney. You've got to have it so it's
22 easy to understand and comply with, and then they'll do
23 it. Most of us want to comply with environmental
24 regulations, but I'm not going to sit down for a week
25 trying to figure it out or pay somebody $275 an hour to
26 tell me how to do it.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I think the combination of those
2 two things are what are most important, at least I've
3 found. There's companies out there who try to come in
4 and sell you a service, and they tell you all the horror
5 stories and things that are going on. Then all of a
6 sudden you actually do get your hands on the
7 regulations, which are not in the simplest terms to
8 understand. You're scared in the first place because of
9 what they said, you can't understand what we just got,
10 and exactly what you said—it's got to be in a form that
11 we can understand and do quickly and not have to take a
12 lawyer or who else to help you fill out.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I would like to see a show of
14 hands, how many in this room get the Federal Register to
15 keep abreast of everything that's going on? I don't.
16 I can't. I got so many things—
17 NEW SPEAKER: You couldn't spend an entire day
18 going through that thing to stay on top of it.
19 NEW SPEAKER: And you wouldn't understand it if
20 you did.
21 NEW SPEAKER: That's right.
22 NEW SPEAKER: It's amazing. I mean—and I
23 understand what Dave's saying. I'm on the opposite
24 side. We sell equipment. And we sell equipment that
25 does have an effluent discharge to it. It's not
26 hazardous by the term of a solvent. We sell equipment
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10
1 that uses solvents as cleaning now, but the
2 manufacturers of this machinery don't really understand
3 what the regulations are. The majority of them take a
4 position that the regulations on a national level are
5 one thing, but in a lot of local municipalities and
6 local governments, they have different regulations.
7 They also get into a matter of interpretation, where the
8 law or regulation is maybe simple or maybe complex, and
9 it's now a matter of interpretation, where someone
10 applies it one way in one area and a different way in
11 another area. We see that with what we do, where some
12 locations people are allowed to do something in
13 treatment and in another area they aren't. And the
14 manufacturers of the various pieces of equipment that
15 are trying to market and sell treatment machinery to do
16 this—they don't really understand the regulations.
17 They don't try to understand the regulations, because
18 they don't want to get in the middle by telling someone
19 that this will work, and maybe it does work in one
20 location according that interpretation, but in another
21 location it doesn't. So there's that confusion. And
22 you do have, unfortunately, some sales organizations and
23 people out there that are trying to sell a product and
24 do make misclaims. Some of that's—I believe the
25 majority of that, I would like to think it's
26 unintentional. I don't think they understand it. I
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11
1 know we, as a company, we sell—we try to stay away from
2 the treatment process, because we just don't— You know,
3 we sell waters, wash waters, and things of that nature.
4 And people ask us questions, and they are very difficult
5 questions to answer. I mean, we sell them a product
6 that's environmentally safe when you get it, but I can't
7 control what you do with it. Now, if you do something
8 with it in Wrightsville, that's one thing. If you do
9 something with it in Mechanicsburg, that may be an
10 entirely different thing up there. And I, as a supplier
11 of that product, really can't tell them because I can't
12 know what that interpretation is in Mechanicsburg versus
13 what the one is in Wrightsville. So, actually, I can't
14 really sell a product in some situations that may work.
15 So we, as a company, I know we've taken a—well, we back
16 off of it. We don't—we really don't want too much to
17 do with it. Let someone else deal with it, because we
18 don't understand it and we don't want to put ourself in
19 that position.
20 MODERATOR: The regulatory process now, you're
21 saying?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. That's correct. When it
23 comes to the regulatory process, we don't understand
24 it. We can't really tell our customers or our potential
25 customer how they need to handle it. We can tell them,
26 yeah, that this is a high PH material. It's made of
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12
1 hydroxide. Okay, so you shouldn't put them down the
2 sewer. You need to neutralize them, bring the PH down
3 a little bit. Well, there might be something else in
4 there you might have to get out. You may have to get
5 some oil out of it. Well, those are relatively simple
6 things. But in one location, one municipality may
7 accept a large quantity oil and another municipality
8 won't accept any at all. So what works in one location
9 isn't going to work in another. So I can't go and tell
10 Dave that—hey, this is no problem, you can go ahead and
11 use this—because I don't know. Now he's got to
12 understand the regulations and how it works in his
13 facility or his municipality, and then he's got to go
14 and talk with someone there.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Well see, there's a difference
16 there because I'm an NPDES permit holder. I discharge
17 directly to the Susquehanna River. I do not go into
18 Wrightsville's POTW. We had our waste treatment system
19 long before Wrightsville had theirs. And the system
20 that we have that my father installed in 1967 still
21 exceeds the guidelines of today. So anything—we got to
22 the point where nothing comes into our facility. We
23 don't even accept samples anymore. There was a time,
24 you know, a salesman has a remarkable new product.
25 Here, we'll give you a sample. No, I don't want it.
26 Send me your tech data sheets, and then we'll determine
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13
1 then if we want a small sample to go in the lab with.
2 The days of accepting drums of samples are over for us.
3 We deal with 9.8 million gallons of water a year, and we
4 recycle 109 tons of F006 metal hydroxy sludge a year.
5 NEW SPEAKER: See, you guys talk about stuff
6 that we don't even have a clue. [Laughter, agreement]
7 We sit and listen to this and say—hey, they're sending
8 me a sample. I'll try it, because I don't have a clue.
9 And I sat on a stakeholders for Pennsylvania that they
10 talked about—well, don't you read your MSDS's? First
11 of all, most of the terms on there, I don't understand
12 the chemical language. And secondly, the one that I did
13 look at was for hand cleaner, and it had on there you
14 should wear gloves. [Laughter] I assumed the MSDS was
15 made from a computer. It had a chemical in it, and the
16 computer kicked out that it would be wise to wear gloves
17 with it. So do I have a lot of faith in them? No, I
18 don't understand them. That bigger issue we were
19 talking about—parts cleaner—they were saying we should
20 know what we are buying. Well, you know, they come with
21 chemical names and stuff. I call a parts house and say-
22 -send me a barrel of parts cleaner. I don't ask what
23 it's made out of, because I wouldn't know what—you
24 know, I know when I work on a part, whether it cleans
25 part or not, but I don't know what chemicals work. I
26 don't have the resources to find out about that.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we have two books of
2 MSDS's, and they're about that thick.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Does anybody ever read them?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Absolutely.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Not in my business they don't.
6 My guys know less than me. The guys that are looking at
7 them know less than me.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we just had the training
9 [inaudible]
10 NEW SPEAKER: We train twice a year.
11 NEW SPEAKER: We train our people once a year.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Every employee has access to his
13 or her supervisor to all the MSDS's.
14 NEW SPEAKER: They take a lunch break or
15 something and go sit down and read through them?
16 NEW SPEAKER: No.
17 NEW SPEAKER: No. They're there.
18 NEW SPEAKER: They are trained on exactly how
19 to read it, to use it on what equipment required to do
20 a task.
21 NEW SPEAKER: That's true. But—
22 NEW SPEAKER: But you know, you can't force
23 them.
24 NEW SPEAKER: No. They—-
25 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we as a company and I
26 agree, more this way than your way. We as a company are
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1 forced to abide by those things, and yet, as I say, we
2 have two books that are identically the same. I'm sure
3 most of my employees don't really know what that
4 consists of. And to actually then put your name on a
5 document that says—yes, you complied, or yes, you are
6 in agreement with. We're trying to run a business, and
7 trying to make a profit, and trying to do those kind of
8 things. Yes, we want to comply. Yes, we want to do
9 everything we can. But I think, especially in a small
10 operation, you have fewer people and things like that—
11 it's impossible. It is just impossible to stay on top
12 of everything.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. You mentioned MSDS, and I'm
14 not familiar with that term. Tell me what that—
15 NEW SPEAKER: Manufacturers Data Sheets.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Material Safety Data Sheets
17 NEW SPEAKER: Material Safety Data Sheets.
18 NEW SPEAKER: That's why I knew all these other
19 terms—all those other initials he threw out—
20 [Laughter]
21 MODERATOR: Okay. So this, you're saying, is
22 a good example of the difficulties in business, uh—to
23 comply.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it's difficult because—I
25 don't know, maybe, and I don't know. Maybe I'm
26 incorrect in saying it, but we sell products, okay. And
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1 we sell them to people like Dave—electroplaters and
2 different people. We have a division in North Carolina.
3 So we sell these products to seven states—seven or
4 eight states. And a manufacturer is required to list on
5 the Materials Data Sheet or product sheet the
6 ingredients that are in his product that are listed on
7 the Federal government's hazardous inventory list.
8 Their toxic—
9 NEW SPEAKER: Toxic, or their CHS, or
10 hazardous—
11 NEW SPEAKER: CHS or hazardous. So they have
12 to list that product in there. If there isn't any of
13 that product in the material you're selling, there isn't
14 any disclosure in there, but there is still safety
15 precautions in terms of how to use the product, how to
16 dispose of it, what happens under decomposition, and a
17 variety of things. But I don't believe there is any
18 specific way that these have to be filled out, because
19 each manufacturer will complete them to a different
20 level of completeness.
21 NEW SPEAKER: I've been told they have to be
22 formatted in a certain way—
23 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there's certain information
24 in there, but it can vary. So—but then people don't
25 really understand what all those products and those
26 items are that are on those data sheets.
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17
1 NEW SPEAKER: A lot of the terms they use are
2 the chemical names, which to me or most of my employees,
3 you know, there's no way. Can't even pronounce it.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Doesn't mean anything.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. And then they're generated
6 by a computer, and, like I said, on a hand cleaner,
7 because it has a certain product in it—and probably a
8 minute amount—it says you should wear protective
9 clothing or gloves to use a hand cleaner.
10 NEW SPEAKER: It's the age old thing of cover
11 your ass with paper. That's basic—that's the best
12 thing you can say.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Make it somebody else's fault.
14 NEW SPEAKER: You know, whether or not it's
15 hazardous, or extremely hazardous, or toxic. You know,
16 what you use in your home for drain cleaner or
17 something, or you use a bleach in your home—if I have
18 that material in my plant, supposedly I have to have an
19 MSDS sheet that explains to my employees how to deal
20 with it and how to handle it.
21 NEW SPEAKER: That's a very good example.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Another good example is Clorox.
23 I mean, if you use Clorox in your plant, you're breaking
24 the law, and that shows up really as chlorine.
25 [Agreement] Yet, millions of gallons of it is used
26 every Monday when women do their wash.
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18
1 MODERATOR: Okay. So let me ask you—you have
2 this because it tells you what is on the toxics list or
3 what kind of chemicals that are on a list that you need
4 to—
5 NEW SPEAKER: It tells you what is in the
6 product and it tells you how to handle the product, how
7 to dispose of it, how to treat somebody if they get it
8 in the eyes or if they drink or do something like that.
9 NEW SPEAKER: But this also goes through, not
10 only EPA that we're talking about, but this is OSHA,
11 this is DOT, this covers just about everything. This is
12 anytime anything is processed or shipped or you have it,
13 if it exceeds a certain, what, PEL? P-E-L or T-E-L,
14 whatever them letters are? You know, you have to train
15 your people in—so they know what they're dealing with.
16 Now, it's my experience—and I've been in this business
17 since I've been fourteen years old, and since 1991 I
18 have been the sole owner and President and manager of
19 this company. And, as far as I'm concerned, if somebody
20 come along and made me the right offer, I'd throw the
21 place at them, because every day, alls I deal with on my
22 desk day after day after day, all day long, is more
23 Federal and state regulations that completely just—by
24 the end of the day, I'm completely done. And they just
25 don't let you alone. It's constant all the time.
26 Something new, something different. Now the big thing
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19
1 is 112(r). Okay, so you're not big enough to have to
2 submit a plan, but they put a general clause in there
3 that says you have to know what you're doing with 112(r)
4 and have a plan that explains what your internal
5 procedures are going to be. And that don't take in 302,
6 304, 312, 311, CERCLA, RCRA. [Laughter] I'm telling
7 you, we spend—my plant engineer probably spends 40
8 hours a week just on government regulations, red tape,
9 and we just keep going further backwards all the time.
10 I mean it's at the point where—huh?
11 NEW SPEAKER: You have an engineer that handles
12 that. I got to do all that stuff myself. [Laughter]
13 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, well, what he doesn't
14 handle, I handle. You know.
15 MODERATOR: Okay. Anybody else want to add to
16 this picture? How it is in their business?
17 NEW SPEAKER: Well, again, you know—and I
18 think one of the topics that you talked about later was
19 communications. It's—a lot of this stuff—Dave, maybe
20 you have different experiences—but a lot of this stuff,
21 if I don't overhear it, I don't even know it exists.
22 MODERATOR: Overhear it, for instance?
23 NEW SPEAKER: If you happen to read some—one
24 of these organizations that want to sell you a service
25 says—oh, by the way you have to do this. And I said—
26 well, what is this? So then you start doing the
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20
1 research yourself, and you find out—yeah, you should be
2 complying with that, but the organization that is
3 responsible for that has never notified you. I mean,
4 there's no regular communications back and forth telling
5 you or giving you a chance. And, I can't say strongly
6 enough, the kind of regulations that a company like
7 electroplaters has—it's incredible. Sooner or later
8 the day's going to come, probably, when—like Dave said-
9 -he just will throw up his hands and say—I cannot, I
10 can't exist any more like this.
11 NEW SPEAKER: That's the other end that's
12 missing in this whole scenario that we're talking about
13 tonight. Trying to actually produce a product for the
14 consumer, yet staying within regulations that make some
15 sense.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think the thing—there's
17 too many people making up regulations, sitting behind a
18 desk and thinking up brainstorms, without really
19 thinking about what effect—how that relates to the end
20 user, you know. And they don't understand where the end
21 users are coming from. They already have—like Dave
22 said—they already have so many things you have to
23 contend with, but this other guy behind the desk gets
24 this idea. Well, this shouldn't mean too much. Maybe
25 that particular item wouldn't mean too much, but it's
26 just another thing on the plate. You know, for our
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21
1 computer business we get around to a lot of body shops,
2 and I know there's a lot of things that most—the
3 majority of them are not doing. They're not even aware
4 of it. And even just like MSDS sheets. They don't
5 even—they know they get them, but they don't know what
6 to do with them. There's no education there or, like
7 you say, communication, that they even know that these
8 regs exist. I bet there's less then three percent of
9 the shops even know what they're for.
10 NEW SPEAKER: You brought up an interesting—
11 you know, like I said, sitting on that stakeholder
12 meeting with DEP—and it happened to be an air quality
13 stakeholders meeting—and it was very interesting in the
14 fact when we started out, the regs were written by
15 basically one person in the state government that did
16 it. When we had the stakeholders, we had groups and we
17 had people that sold equipment. They actually
18 demonstrated and showed what the equipment did, which
19 enlightened some of us that were not aware of what
20 equipment was out there, you know, like aqueous cleaners
21 and so forth. And there were people from the
22 environmental side, there was somebody from EPA there,
23 and those of us from industry. It was really
24 interesting. You would hear them bring up things, they'd
25 go over regs or possible regs, and everybody would have
26 chance to kind of work with it and say—well, that
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22
1 doesn't work for us. In our particular case, the
2 automotive industry, the thing about parts cleaner. And
3 they were saying—well, they were going to regulate that
4 the end user was the one that got the fine, that was
5 cited for it and stuff. And I'm saying to him—look, we
6 buy parts cleaner. We don't buy tetraethyl whatever the
7 name of the stuff was. You know, it's the guy selling
8 it to you—that's selling the drums of it that sold a
9 hundred of them—that really is the person that you
10 should be going after. If he's not supplying it to us,
11 we're not buying. We're just calling up saying—send us
12 parts cleaner. And they started to understand, you
13 know, where things were happening. And we talked about
14 things like that, and they changed the regulations some
15 so they would—in this particular issue, which was the
16 biggest issue I had—they changed they way it was
17 written so they could do things to the people that were
18 supplying— the people that actually new what the
19 product was. But it was real enlightening to me. I
20 learned a whole lot about it. I learned a lot about the
21 regulatory process. And the people—you know, there's
22 no way that they can understand what we go through out
23 there unless they have a group like that there.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think that before any
25 regs come out, they should go out and find out from
26 people that it's going to affect and how it relates to
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23
1 them before it's ever a reg. I mean, the brainy idea
2 might seem good to them, but they don't have no clue how
3 it's going to affect us.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think, you know, the
5 stakeholder thing in itself gave it—because you also
6 got a chance to see—you know what they're trying to do,
7 and it gives you an opportunity to see the other side of
8 things and understand how their hands are tied in some
9 ways. And like I said, it was real enlightening to me.
10 And the equipment—we talked a little earlier about, you
11 know, not selling equipment. Well these guys came in,
12 they flew guys in from California that were experts in
13 their field. Bell Helicopter sent their environmental
14 expert in. I mean, that's all he did and he knew his
15 stuff. You know, I'm sitting there thinking—boy, I'm
16 pretty stupid. I don't know anything about this stuff.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Well, you hit on the clean air
18 thing. The Clean Air Act in 1991. DEP— and DEP is the
19 enforcement and control for most, I think all the EPA
20 guidelines and regulations in the State of Pennsylvania.
21 So in 1991, Air Quality came in and did an inspection,
22 and some snot-nosed kid right out of college. Middle of
23 the winter and there's steam—you know, our process
24 tanks operate at 180 degrees, so steam is coming off of
25 them, our cleaners. So this has to be bad. Well, so
26 the next thing you know, this is a whole blown-out
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24
1 affair. And then the next thing you know, it cost my
2 company by the time it was over—and it's still really
3 not over because we've got the operating cost—$480,000
4 to control our systems, which— They would not look at
5 any of the data or anything that we had. We had in-
6 house air quality inspections done by our workers comp
7 carrier for, like, ten years. They wouldn't even look
8 at it. And they just, more or less, they sit down and
9 the guy that was in charge said—this is what you are
10 going to do and this is how you're going to do it.
11 Whether it was right or not. And a couple of years
12 before that, it was Campbell Cooper Tools in York. I
13 think it cost them about a half a million dollars to
14 bring their plating department in compliance with the
15 regs. At that point in time, had it not been for the
16 Department of Commerce in the State of Pennsylvania,
17 that we were able to get 50 percent of the money at a
18 two percent interest rate, we'd have been out of
19 business. It's that simple. Because there was no way
20 that we could have supported all that debt— non-
21 producing debt. And, you know, this is a horror story
22 as far as I'm concerned. I mean, we're still carrying
23 that debt. We're falling behind our competitors because
24 we're carrying this great burden, and it's just—it's
25 tough. It's really tough. I mean, it's—a lesser
26 company doing things differently would have just walked
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25
1 away and said the hell with it.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Move to Mexico.
3 NEW SPEAKER: That's NAFTA, you know. They're
4 still running the stuff out the front door down there
5 and letting it run down the street. So they don't care.
6 My feeling about all these regulations is, we're trying
7 to save the world from within the boundaries of the
8 United States and it's impossible to do.
9 NEW SPEAKER: There's a lot of—well, the side
10 effects. I mean, maybe they're looking at, let's say
11 clean air, and they only look at that, and don't really
12 think of how it affects your company and others. Their
13 people, their jobs. You know, there's a lot of other
14 negative effects that they create by doing some of these
15 regs which oftentimes are worse than what they tried to
16 correct.
17 NEW SPEAKER: The current regulations that are
18 on the table right now to even cut the clean air
19 regulations down even lower, I am convinced will put a
20 high percent of people that have that problem out of
21 business.
22 NEW SPEAKER: So that means all their people,
23 all their employees are without a job—
24 NEW SPEAKER: They're gone.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Well, last month, I mean,
26 everybody was happy about the gross national product and
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26
1 about—what was it—250,000 or so new jobs were created
2 in the American economy. But what they didn't publicize
3 was the fact that manufacturing lost 50,000 jobs in the
4 month of January.
5 NEW SPEAKER: 50,000 jobs. Go on.
6 NEW SPEAKER: And our business space—well, we
7 lost Caterpillar here in York for different reasons—
8 NEW SPEAKER: Stanley Tool.
9 NEW SPEAKER: But we see people all of the time
10 moving out of the states, moving out of Pennsylvania
11 cause you've got taxes, which is a different issue than
12 compensation or workman's comp and all that. But
13 industry in general, basic manufacturing in the United
14 States, as far as I'm concerned, is in trouble. We
15 don't have it. We have got a lot of technology. We are
16 buying high technology. The basic things before you get
17 to high technology is moving off shore, because you can
18 do things in Mexico, you can do things in China, in
19 different parts of the world, that they're not allow to
20 do in the United States. So manufacturers are taking
21 those operations, and taking them away because of these
22 regulations. And a lot of small manufacturing companies
23 are getting out of business because they don't
24 understand the regulations, they don't have the people
25 that understand them, they don't have the ability to pay
26 for people to understand them, so they stay away from
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27
1 them. Companies like ourselves, we're not a small
2 company, but we're not a large company. We have 25 or
3 27 employees total within our two divisions. But we try
4 to do things correctly. We try to represent and sell
5 good products. But a lot people aren't interested in
6 buying products because they don't know how they work.
7 We can't really tell them that what they're going to do
8 is—you know, they have to talk to somebody. You tell
9 them go talk to the EPA guy, most of them turn around
10 and walk away. And they won't call. They're afraid.
11 MODERATOR: Who do you tell them to talk to?
12 NEW SPEAKER: I tell them that they need to
13 talk to their local environmental office, whether that's
14 EPA, whether that's the local sewer—local sewage
15 treatment people. And they're in the phone book. And,
16 I mean, you've got—unfortunately, you've got
17 municipalities that have requirements (separate
18 requirements), the city, then you have the state, and
19 all these are different requirements. That's who they
20 have to call and contact.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Don't you think when you tell—
22 As a manufacturer, I know if you told me that and you
23 were supplying me— It's like calling IRS asking them to
24 check [inaudible]. [Laughter] You know, and I encourage
25 them to come out and find something, because basically,
26 you know, I had a Congressman tell me one day, he said—
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28
1 I know you're doing something wrong. He said—we've
2 passed enough laws now that you can't possibly be doing
3 everything right.
4 MODERATOR: So who do you want to call?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Nobody [Laughter].
6 NEW SPEAKER: Maybe you just hit on the issue
7 that we're here to talk about tonight. The perception—
8 our perception of what EPA, IRS, and whatever—any
9 government regulating organization is, is that they're
10 ready to swoop down and try to find something wrong with
11 your organization. We're from the government. We're
12 here to help you. [Laughter]
13 NEW SPEAKER: Let me give you a good analogy of
14 this. This is an EPA voluntary program that came out
15 years ago called 33-50 program. It set goals for
16 reductions of waste in this country. I forget what the
17 time frame was. Voluntary. You know, I got a letter
18 that said this is a voluntary program. So I said—you
19 know, this is going to take a lot of work. Somebody's
20 going to have to spend a lot of hours putting this thing
21 together. So I said—we ain't gonna do it. So next—
22 two days later I get another letter. This is a
23 voluntary program. Couple days later I get another one,
24 and another one, and then it just kept coming, and
25 coming, and coming, that finally I got the message—this
26 ain't a voluntary thing. You know, we want you in this.
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1 You know, the paper says it's voluntary, but why'd they
2 keep badgering and hounding you to death on something
3 that's supposed to be voluntary? And if you send out
4 one mailing or make one phone call, and the business
5 owner decides not to do it—? You know, anything that
6 comes into my office that has EPA on it, everybody
7 handles it by the corner and puts it in my mail box.
8 Whether it's good or bad. So we did finally
9 participate. So if—and it took my plant engineer at
10 that time literally hours to put all the information
11 together that we needed to do. Now we're involved in
12 another. It's called the Strategic Goals Program for
13 the Metal Finishing Industry. And it may be a good
14 thing. I happen to be on the Incentives Board. Go to
15 the meeting, you get on a board. But we're talking
16 about incentives and disincentives. Okay, if you're a
17 good boy and you meet these targets, we are going to do
18 this for you. If you're a bad boy, then the Enforcement
19 Committee is going to come out and talk to you. Now,
20 I'm still not totally one-hundred percent sold on this.
21 And this is some thing that was worked out at the top
22 [inaudible] of the National Association of Metal
23 Finishers and the American Electroplaters and Surface
24 Finishers and the EPA. So it has a lot of value. It,
25 again, has targets that have to be met so you can be in
26 compliance with a voluntary program. Hell, targets to
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30
1 be in compliance. So it remains to be seen, but uh—
2 NEW SPEAKER: The problem with the whole thing
3 is that Dave is conscientious and he does this, but yet
4 he's got competitors that aren't as conscientious that
5 aren't participating in voluntary programs or whatever,
6 and they're eating his lunch.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. But see, now this
8 Strategic Goals, we're going to get them bad guys.
9 NEW SPEAKER: You're going to get them. Okay.
10 [Laughter]
11 NEW SPEAKER: Now that the EPA got us down to
12 the point where us as businesses are going to go out and
13 do their--
14 NEW SPEAKER: Self-policing [Laughter]
15 NEW SPEAKER: Now, isn't this getting pretty
16 close to Fascism? And Hitler? And—
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. We don't have a democratic
18 society. Whoever told you that?
19 MODERATOR: It's getting a little warm in here!
20 NEW SPEAKER: It's really warm in here!
21 NEW SPEAKER: We're getting a little warm.
22 [Laughter]
23 NEW SPEAKER: What I think I hear you saying is
24 that sometimes, by getting involved in these things,
25 what happens is there's an unfair competitive advantage
26 from the competitor because he's able to produce a
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31
1 product at a lesser rate because he doesn't have to have
2 the plant engineer spending 40 hours a week doing all
3 this kind of stuff. [Agreement]. You can have him
4 producing a new product, doing research and development
5 on something else. And, I mean, we have the same thing.
6 We have a lot of [inaudible] people in our industry who
7 don't pay taxes, don't pay workman's comp, don't do
8 unemployment comp, because all the people work under the
9 table. Yes, they have a machine that may be in
10 compliance, but may not be in compliance. Don't comply
11 with Federal or state regs, but they're still operating.
12 I produce a shirt for $1.65, they're doing it for $.99.
13 And what's the customer say? You know what? They don't
14 give a crap. Excuse me, but they're going down the
15 street because it's cheaper, and everybody wants a
16 cheaper price.
17 NEW SPEAKER: That's what happening in the
18 collision side. Insurance companies, you know, they
19 don't get the end result product, so that everything
20 comes down to price. So they go and direct jobs to the
21 cheapest shop. So that's the one reason why they're not
22 doing any of these regs. I mean, they basically bypass
23 everything because it's going strictly for price. They
24 try and, like you say, pay under the table, try and get
25 the taxes down. They don't pay—they can't afford to
26 pay the guy to keep up MSDS sheets or do any type of
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1 great paper work. It all comes down to cheaper price,
2 so—
3 NEW SPEAKER: I have the guy in the alley
4 that's painting in a garage or something like that—
5 NEW SPEAKER: Or the streets, you know, and—
6 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, or painting right in the
7 street and [inaudible]. And he's the competition for
8 him. And there's really no enforcement to that. I
9 mean, there's no—it's not fair to the guy that does try
10 to comply. I mean, it's very obvious that there's a big
11 cost difference in that industry. I know that the cost
12 difference is enormous because I hope to get in it. The
13 investment is tremendous.
14 NEW SPEAKER: That's just, you know, just like-
15 -in this state alone— I can only talk about this. This
16 is the Region III, and they take in Maryland and
17 Virginia, but in Pennsylvania, in my industry, I have
18 competitors that are down towards Philadelphia area.
19 They have ventilation systems, but they have no
20 scrubbers. Now I was forced to put scrubbers in, so I
21 got all the cost involved with all the extra water. And
22 these scrubbers, they only use four and a half million
23 gallons of water a year. And majority goes right out
24 the stack, what isn't returned. So—but they don't have
25 it. They're capturing and blowing it right out in the
26 air. Now, I like my scrubbers. I'm bearing the burden
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33
1 of the cost.
2 NEW SPEAKER: But what's good for one, it
3 should be good for every one.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Right. That's another thing that
5 I see that— You know, I go to Arkansas fishing—and I
6 want to bring this up because this really burned my
7 butt. [Laughter] I'm down in Arkansas, right, like
8 three or four years after everybody was forced into
9 unleaded gas back here. After it's completely outlawed,
10 here they are in Arkansas selling leaded gas, and I'm
11 wondering—what is this? How does this work?
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, you're talking about—
13 that's a real interesting thing when you talk about the
14 enforcement and the lack of— I mean, some of the rules
15 that—and I know EPA is hearing us out—but some of the
16 rules are just like—the new emissions program. Well,
17 we have it in Philadelphia, we have it in Pittsburgh,
18 we're going to probably have something in York County,
19 but Adams County is okay. You know, the air doesn't
20 blow up over Adams County. It's no problem there.
21 Either the—you know, if you're doing something to clean
22 the air, which travels all over, why wasn't it
23 statewide, nationwide?
24 NEW SPEAKER: If it's good for one, it should
25 be—
26 NEW SPEAKER: It just doesn't make any sense to
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34
1 run programs for one county or something. Sure it's
2 worse in that area, but the air moves across. And why
3 would you create a program for different areas like
4 that? It just doesn't make any sense at all.
5 MODERATOR: Let me stop a minute gentlemen,
6 because you've been doing a terrific job of telling me
7 what your problems are that you face in doing business
8 here. Thank you. And I was going to move on to, well,
9 how can the DEP, how can EPA get you better information?
10 But it kind of sounds to me like you want to get them
11 better information, or that you want to be involved in
12 a different way in the process. I mean, right now
13 you're not happy with any information you're getting
14 from them, it sounds like.
15 NEW SPEAKER: One thing. I don't know where
16 they're at, or what they're working on, or what some of
17 the regulations probably are. You know, so I think a
18 lot of that is communication both ways. I mean, you
19 know, if they have something they're thinking about, we
20 need to know about it and let me give some feed back,
21 and back and forth. Just for them to come up with some
22 ideas or something breaks, and say—there you go. And
23 they got a report. This has got to be done—you know,
24 complied by a certain date. You know, its—
25 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think they do it. They
26 probably in their own minds in their own self defense
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35
1 say—we do make you aware of it. I mean, like last time
2 I got a speeding ticket, the police officer very
3 politely made me aware of the fact, which I knew and had
4 forgotten, was that ignorance was no excuse. Because
5 you didn't know that you were breaking the law, that's
6 not an excuse for not getting a ticket. And I think EPA
7 and the other regulatory agencies take the same
8 position—that we publish it in the Federal Register and
9 we put it out there. (And that's good enough.) And now
10 it is your responsibility to get that information and
11 act upon it. Well as Charlie said earlier, I get so
12 doggone much stuff across my desk, I just throw half of
13 it away. I mean, I will make a half a second decision
14 as to whether I even open an envelope or not. If it
15 looks like it's anything away from my business, I won't
16 even open it. I have even started to refuse to fill out
17 these questionnaire forms for ISO 9000 and that. I've
18 got a stack of them that high on my desk I keep on
19 getting, and I have told people, if you want to pay me
20 for an hour or two to fill out your paper work so you
21 can get a certification, I will do it. I mean it's
22 ridiculous. So what's happening is that there's too
23 much information that is given to all of us or is put
24 out there that we are supposed to act upon, and we don't
25 have enough time to do that and run our businesses.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Some of that information you get,
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36
1 when you open it and stuff— I know I open it and I read
2 it, and I say—how does this apply to me? I don't have
3 a clue how it applies to me.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. But if the guy from the
5 EPA knocks on your door tomorrow morning and says—
6 didn't you get that letter? I mean, you're in trouble.
7 I mean, that's—
8 NEW SPEAKER: Just take the current air
9 regulations that are on the table right now. They're
10 talking to a certain limited number of people in
11 Washington. They're being influenced by all the
12 environmental groups across the country. These are
13 politicians who are going to vote based on that kind of
14 influence. People like ourselves sitting around this
15 table here—you know, hundreds of thousands of us—we're
16 saying we don't have the time to go to Washington. We
17 don't have the time to fill out forms. We don't have
18 the time to get on TV. But yet, we're the ones forced
19 to abide by all these rules and regulations.
20 NEW SPEAKER: And the same way that I have to
21 admit that, you know—like in the air quality, they are
22 starting a stakeholders group in Central Pennsylvania.
23 I know it starts at the end of the month. I think
24 that's initiated by Ridge in Pennsylvania, and that's to
25 look at that and see how they've done it in Pittsburgh
26 and Philadelphia. So there is some input in that
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1 fashion. It's pretty neat what they're doing with that.
2 They're bringing people in from all different industries
3 looking at what can be done.
4 NEW SPEAKER: How many things can you be
5 involved in? I'm active with AESF. I'm active with the
6 NAMF. And now I'm active on the SGP, and now—
7 NEW SPEAKER: You're hell with letters. You
8 got more letters— [Laughter]
9 NEW SPEAKERS: Now, because I'm now active on
10 the SGP, now I get a letter from the Chesapeake Bay
11 people. They're saying—well, why don't you join us?
12 This is all you have to do. You know, this is all you
13 have to do. And I look at it and say—man, that's all
14 you have to do? That's hours. You know, and they're
15 telling me what this is—it gives you good public image
16 and everything else. And, you know—
17 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me ask you. You're
18 saying you have an example of a process that seemed more
19 helpful than just the top down regulations that has been
20 described, and particularly Barry described recently.
21 And you've been involved in a process that allows people
22 in industry to help figure out what the regulations
23 should be like.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
25 MODERATOR: Okay. Are there any more, like,
26 more positive examples of things that you think are
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1 going in the right direction in terms of helping you get
2 the regulations that will let you stay in business. And
3 the next part is, help everybody understand what those
4 regulations are. Like, let's start with the process,
5 though, cause I think that's the big picture. What in
6 the process of getting reasonable regulations do you
7 need?
8 NEW SPEAKER: I think one of the things EPA,
9 DEP needs to get together and basically say—okay, in
10 Pennsylvania if you want to run a body shop, here's
11 what's required. And basically have almost like a body
12 shop booklet, and there'd be another one for other
13 industries. You know, so you don't have to sort through
14 books and books trying to figure out what you got to do
15 and you don't have to do, and then have all these
16 different interpretations of—EPA conflicts with DEP,
17 and, you know, it needs to be somewhat combined in them.
18 MODERATOR: Okay. You want some input on that?
19 You want to be on a committee that puts that together?
20 [Laughter]
21 NEW SPEAKER: I think we're, like Dave said, I
22 think the group here are probably the same guys—and I
23 know Barry and I, we got a call from our association
24 asking us. And like I said, I've been on air quality
25 stakeholders. I'm on the stakeholders for Central
26 Pennsylvania. I'm here tonight. You know, we get
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39
1 tapped pretty hard. I enjoy doing it, you know, and I
2 don't mind doing it so much, but I—if I want to stay
3 fresh on it. I gotta get back and work my business to
4 sometimes. Not only am I making money, but I understand
5 the problems.
6 NEW SPEAKER: The problem for me, you know, is
7 I don't understand the regs to begin with. So, I don't
8 know, do you take somebody from EPA to come out to a
9 body shop and understand what's necessary, what goes on,
10 and what would apply and what wouldn't apply?
11 NEW SPEAKER: I don't think you ever will.
12 They know it's so complicated.
13 NEW SPEAKER: That's why I think the people
14 from EPA or DEP don't understand, because they have—
15 they know their specific area, but they don't understand
16 how it affects—
17 NEW SPEAKER: I mean, we even use an outside
18 environmental consulting firm to answer some of these
19 questions on these regulations, because we have—you
20 know, I have a plant engineer. I pay $50,000 a year to
21 this man. And when he comes and says—I said—what do
22 you think about this new regulation? And he says—you
23 know, I really don't know.
24 MODERATOR: Okay. What would be helpful to
25 him?
26 NEW SPEAKER: A much simpler explanation of
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40
1 what the law's talking about. I mean, these things sort
2 of—a lot of this stuff is so—I don't know how you
3 explain it, but it's so confusing.
4 MODERATOR: Okay.
5 NEW SPEAKER: You know, and it's written for
6 Philadelphia lawyers, I think.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it's written by lawyers.
8 NEW SPEAKER: How about a non-threatening
9 source that you could call—somebody at EPA that your
10 engineer could tap into and could give him answers that,
11 in fact, would be binding on EPA, so that they couldn't
12 go back there and say—
13 NEW SPEAKER: Well, they won't do it.
14 NEW SPEAKER: They won't do it.
15 NEW SPEAKER: They won't do it.
16 NEW SPEAKER: They've got to. If they want us
17 to do it, they've got to get down to the table.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Then you're back to the--
19 [ TAPE FLIP ]
20 NEW SPEAKER: I mean, the legislators slash
21 lawyers are writing these things. They're—poor EPA is
22 caught in the middle trying to enforce the whole thing
23 of something that probably a lot of their people don't
24 understand.
25 NEW SPEAKER: But the regs are written in the
26 EPA. They're not—the laws are one thing. The regs are
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1 what we're dealing with here.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Well, but the regs are still
3 written by lawyers.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Alright. Yeah--
5 MODERATOR: Okay. What would be helpful in
6 your industry?
7 NEW SPEAKER: Back to what we said very early
8 on. Write it in simple terms—I think you had that on
9 one of your sheets—that we can understand and does not
10 leave you open for some legal recourse by some
11 organization out there because you didn't understand it.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Because you didn't understand.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Because you didn't understand it.
14 And keep the regulation to one page.
15 NEW SPEAKER: And keep it simple.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yup. Keep it simple.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Another thing also. Very, very
18 important. And we found this in our industry, where
19 there has been regulations promulgated by the EPA that
20 does not have the scientific background to prove what
21 they're doing. [Agreement] While we run the scientific
22 tests and prove that they were wrong, but once it's
23 already a regulation you play hell trying to change
24 anything. I mean, you ever see—how many laws have you
25 seen them take away? Not very many.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I think one other interesting in
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1 that light too is, you know, the air quality thing where
2 we just had the emissions testing [inaudible]. You
3 know, they're proposing the lower—I call it lower—
4 limitations that are to come out, and I'm not sure—I
5 forget what year, but it's relatively short. My
6 question is—gee, we just implemented something to clean
7 the air. Didn't we even give it a chance to see what
8 it's done before we start—?
9 NEW SPEAKER: That's another problem.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Actually, it has made great
11 strides. The Clean Air Act has had an outstanding
12 impact on this country. But there again, you know, if
13 you're running a stationary source—this primarily in
14 the generating industry—and you're polluting, and this
15 company over here that's a generating source is running
16 an extremely clean operation, you can buy his
17 environmental air credit.
18 NEW SPEAKER: It gets down to that same in our
19 business. You know, you get a waiver if you spend so
20 much money on cleaning your car up. You know, the buzz
21 word is it's not clean air. The whole issue is not
22 clean air. If you can buy a waiver by spending X
23 number of dollars, you know, you're really not out to
24 get clean air. You know, if you're really looking for
25 clean air, you measure what's coming out of there, and
26 you comply. [Agreement] That's getting clean air, not
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1 buying waivers. It's a political thing so that nobody's
2 upset. And the poor people couldn't afford to buy new
3 cars. I guess I have some sympathy for that in some
4 respect, but it doesn't make any sense to me that if you
5 can afford it you have to comply. If not, you get to
6 pollute the air.
7 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me move on here.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Okay.
9 MODERATOR: In the dry cleaning industry, do
10 you have any views on what—?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I have a different view on
12 this than what I'm hearing, because we have—we were
13 actually the first regulated by the 1990 Clean Air Act.
14 There are serious people in EPA who I think have picked
15 out perchlorethylene, our main solvent, as being totally
16 hazardous even though the science isn't all there.
17 They use the word "possible1 rather than "probable1
18 carcinogen. But we didn't have any choice from a
19 national and state point to get involved up front and to
20 help write the regulations so that they are workable
21 within us. A number of us around the state and country
22 have gotten involved in what I call—and I mentioned
23 before I have one with Bob Williams—the Small Business
24 Assistance Compliance Committee. In the other room is
25 Richard Daly, who was our state ombudsman, now is a
26 Federal ombudsman with Region III. We have run some
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1 excellent programs trying to educate dry cleaners. Do
2 they all come out? No. We also have tried to run body
3 shop programs and auto repair guide programs. People
4 just don't come out. They're notified. We know that a
5 letter was sent to everybody. So how do you get that
6 information to people when you know you've sent them
7 letters? This is a non-binding thing— that we're
8 running these programs for various industries to try to
9 educate people through a company called Tetratech, who
10 is this contractor for DEP in Pennsylvania. National
11 program. The state regulates it, and they've hired a
12 contractor to actually perform it. So there's just—
13 you're right. There's so much information out there.
14 A lot of people just ignore it and assume they're never
15 going to be inspected. That's a real problem. I—
16 NEW SPEAKER: Right. And, you know, the body
17 shops, like I said earlier, a lot of them, the reason
18 they don't come out is cause they know [inaudible] and
19 that they can't do a lot of the regulations and still be
20 in business. So a lot of them just bypass them. You
21 know, they're not interested. But there is some—I
22 think—I know they were working on something—VOC
23 regulations for buying paint, that you need a permit to
24 even purchase paint. Then them guys, in order to get
25 the permit, maybe have to go through a program. We kind
26 of bring that together, but, you know— And it needs to
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1 be consistent all across the board, not just if you have
2 a certain amount of employees or— You know, it needs to
3 be—it comes back to the fair—
4 NEW SPEAKER: All across the state, too.
5 NEW SPEAKER: All across the state. This area
6 do this, and this area do that. You know, it has to be
7 equal. Then I think it could work, you know.
8 NEW SPEAKER: You're saying that mechanical
9 shops got notice of this? I don't think so. Cause I
10 read all the stuff. I don't believe we got any
11 information on it, cause it would have been passed out.
12 Our association, we're the largest.
13 MODERATOR: How do you want to hear that these
14 work shops are taking place?
15 NEW SPEAKER: How do we want to hear? Well,
16 you know, I grant it, the mail probably isn't the best,
17 and the association doesn't represent everybody, but the
18 association certainly makes an effort to keep people in
19 the association aware. And I think people that are apt
20 to do the things that they're looking to do belong to
21 the associations.
22 NEW SPEAKER: A big percentage of them, yeah.
23 NEW SPEAKER: The people are apt to do it.
24 You're never—in our industry, you're never going to get
25 the guys that are doing it the alley and stuff. That's
26 going to be an enforcement thing that's going to be real
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1 difficult, because it's going to take a lot of people.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Well, a little bit, like you
3 said, they uh—with this VOC regs that we're talking
4 about, or in fact, that was through DEP—would be in
5 order to purchase paint, if you're being paid at all,
6 you need to have a license—almost like a license. And
7 that would start regulating itself, because if the shop
8 did go through the program to get the license, the
9 permit, and they see the guy shooting it in the street
10 and knows he don't have the equipment, you know, there'd
11 be an 800 number to call.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Barry, is that program—you know,
13 we have the one for air conditioning, and frankly, to be
14 honest with you, it's a joke to get—you know, you read
15 a cartoon book and take an open book test to get a
16 license.
17 NEW SPEAKER: But it still took some people
18 from doing it in the back allies.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it might have helped some,
20 but not—yeah, there's guys that didn't get it. But
21 still, it was a joke.
22 NEW SPEAKER: But what do you do if a private
23 citizen wants to paint their car? It is not against the
24 law for a private citizen to paint his car.
25 NEW SPEAKER: But if they're polluting the air, is
26 it right for them to do it? Can I electroplate and run
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1 that stuff into the sewer?
2 NEW SPEAKER: You certainly can, if you want to
3 take the risk of getting caught. I mean, there's lot's
4 of guys out there doing just that.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Okay, so you can paint your car
6 if you want.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. Let me move on, guys.
8 Okay? [Laughter]
9 NEW SPEAKER: What it was, it's because you're
10 getting paid—if you're getting paid to do it.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Let's go back to—are we
12 including the air or are we not? The object—is it
13 clean air or is it something else? Is it political?
14 Are we going to pacify everybody, or are we—?
15 [Laughter]
16 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it's a little bit like oil.
17 A couple years ago, they wanted to make oil hazardous
18 material. And then they dropped that like a hot
19 balloon.
20 MODERATOR: Well, let me ask you. In a case
21 where you were maybe not happy about the regulation, but
22 are going to comply with it, do you have any examples?
23 A good example of how the regulation was presented to
24 you in a form that could be understood, that your folks
25 wanted to read? Do you have any positive examples
26 anywhere of any kind of regulations that you could point
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1 people to and say this is a good example of how to do
2 it?
3 NEW SPEAKER: No. I can't say that I can, no.
4 [Agreement]
5 MODERATOR: Well, that's good to know.
6 Alright.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, you almost could say that
8 about the emission program, where it takes place and
9 stuff. I mean, it's laid out—boom boom boom. This is
10 what you'll do in the emission program, in the areas
11 it's in and stuff. The guys that have it there, it's
12 spelled out. They have training they must do to get
13 them educated. So, in essence, the program is not bad.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Well, it's my understanding that
15 that's not too bad.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Because they have training
17 involved and there's—
18 NEW SPEAKER: Recertification to make sure—
19 NEW SPEAKER: And there's also inspections and
20 tests to make sure that somebody can't be doing it
21 without having the proper training.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. They've really done a
23 better job this second time around at regulating the
24 inspectors to the point that the fraud has been taken
25 out of it quite a bit, I believe. And it's spelled out,
26 it's real plain. It's really well spelled out what you
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1 must do for the emission testing. So, that's the only
2 one that I can think of that's good. That's been laid
3 out pretty well.
4 NEW SPEAKER: I have Internet access, and on my
5 'favorite places' I have the DEP, Pennsylvania
6 Department Environmental Protection. I have the EPA on
7 there. I have a Web site that's called RTK, which is
8 Right To Know. And I have a site on there that's called
9 Score Card, and the last two are environmental groups.
10 In other words, they're out to get the bad guys if the
11 EPA don't. And I go on the DEP Web site, and for the
12 most part, I can find what I want, but it's going to
13 take me a while. And I can't say any different for the
14 EPA's. Now the Strategic Goals Program for the Metal
15 Finishing Industry, we have our Web site also. And I
16 can truthfully say that that is one of the better Web
17 sites that I go in. I think it's easier to find your
18 way around. Of course, the American Electroplaters
19 Service Finishers Society has their own Web site. And
20 so does the National Association of Metal Finishers. I
21 get more information from the trades that I belong to
22 about environmental things, because we have—our
23 industry is extremely environmentally-oriented. We have
24 to be, because we're probably, next to the nuclear
25 generating industry, the most regulated industry there
26 is. Bar none. I mean, it's amazing all the regulations
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1 that we have to put up with—not just EPA, but OSHA and
2 OOP. I mean, anything that comes in or is shipped out
3 by a truck, we have to have special training programs.
4 And it just becomes extremely time consuming, costly.
5 I mean, it just—I think our environmental budget's
6 around $460,000 a year. And that's $460,000 a year that
7 could be used to expand. We had plans in 1991 to
8 expand, but we haven't done an expansion yet because we
9 have a lot of environmental things that we had to pay
10 for that doesn't put a cent on the bottom line.
11 MODERATOR: Okay. In these Web pages, what in
12 particular was helpful?
13 NEW SPEAKER: Well, for the most part they
14 have—the DEP Web site, they have county notebooks. And
15 you can go in there and you can, more or less, find out
16 anything that's going on in each county. You can find
17 out if your neighbors are being good or bad, or if your
18 competitors are being good or bad, if the DEP even knows
19 about them, or the EPA. And there are plenty of shops
20 out there that I don't think come under any scrutiny at
21 all. So—but you can find information on the Web sites,
22 but it takes a lot of time to dig through them to get
23 it. There's not—if there was just a place, like, on
24 the Web sites that says—okay, this is for the metal
25 finishing industry and this is what's—this is the
26 things that are going on. Or the dry cleaners—this is
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1 the new laws that we're working on for the dry cleaners,
2 and the automotive repair industry—
3 NEW SPEAKER: Right. That's what I was
4 thinking. Be industry-specific. Because I tried to
5 look through the DEP and EPA's, and there's so much
6 stuff there that I can't—I usually can't find what I am
7 looking for.
8 NEW SPEAKER: No. You spend literally hours.
9 Hours and not—
10 NEW SPEAKER: Where if they would just kind of
11 sort the information out by industry—
12 MODERATOR: Okay. So you'd like it by
13 industry. How many of you have access to the Internet
14 every day? Okay. And how many of you can't live
15 without it? [Laughter]
16 NEW SPEAKER: But I think that's the job of our
17 association—and I've big on associations for almost 20
18 years now—is that I find a real value, and that is let
19 them, with their government regulation people, sort it
20 out, put it in plain sense English for us in a short
21 paragraph that it says—boom boom boom—this is what
22 you've got to do. If you do this, do this, or go to
23 this place to find out that information. And put it
24 into plain sense so that people like us, that are busy
25 running their businesses every day, can have short
26 blurbs. Whether it's on the Internet, on a fax-by-
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1 demand, give me what I need. Let me deal with it, and
2 I'll handle it. I wouldn't spend $480,000 a year, but
3 I don't know what your overall gross dollars are, but
4 that's a lot of money to spend on environmental
5 concerns. And let us deal with it. I think most
6 businesses would rather comply than have to fight it.
7 [Agreement].
8 NEW SPEAKER: I think, through the
9 associations—I mean, we, too, belong to different
10 associations, and I, too, am active in several of them.
11 And made the mistake of saying—yeah, I'll do this and
12 then they'll send you something else to do. Next thing
13 you know, you get that much stuff on your desk from the
14 association.
15 MODERATOR: Uh-huh. And you're here.
16 NEW SPEAKER: That's maybe a way to get it—
17 would be industry-specific and through the specific
18 associations that service the different industries.
19 Like the American Society for Metal Finishers and
20 Platers. Maybe somehow EPA or the different regulatory
21 agencies would be able to develop what is specific for
22 an industry, and then work with those industry
23 associations. Because the majority of the manufacturers
24 with the companies that are—that are—what do I want to
25 say--environmentally conscious--conscience--
26 conscientious are also interested in their workers'
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1 health and safety. They're interested in their workers'
2 well-being, their families and that. They want to
3 provide a pleasant work environment. They want to do
4 all these things, but—they join the associations in an
5 effort to do more of it—but you don't have time to go
6 and sift through all these regulations, and go back to
7 college and get a chemical engineering degree or
8 something to understand it. And I know in our
9 associations, the AMTDA, AMT, and these people—and SME-
10 -they all have substantial organizations. And they are
11 providing some of this information now, but they could
12 quite possibly provide a lot more.
13 MODERATOR: Okay. And tell me about the trust
14 factor, if it comes through an association or if it
15 comes through maybe DEP?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Much higher from my standpoint.
17 NEW SPEAKER: There's no question about that!
18 [Laughter]
19 NEW SPEAKER: That's the different between a
20 babe in a bikini and storm trooper.
21 [Laughter]
22 NEW SPEAKER: There's no comparison. I mean,
23 the people who—
24 NEW SPEAKER: You know, it's totally different
25 than coming from, like a salesperson or something that—
26 NEW SPEAKER: Watch what you're saying!
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1 [Laughter]
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. If someone's going to tell
3 me something that is coining from EPA or whatever, or I
4 need to talk to them, I'm going to—no, I don't think
5 so. Maybe tomorrow. But if it's coming from my
6 association—hey yeah, I'm going to listen and I'm going
7 to talk to them about it. I think the credibility is
8 definitely more on the side of the associations or
9 someone other than the government. And I don't
10 particularly care what organization it is.
11 NEW SPEAKER: I think there's an analogy there.
12 NEW SPEAKER: I mean, the analogy is that the
13 guys from the government, I don't want anything to do
14 with.
15 NEW SPEAKER: A good analogy would be, like,
16 which is better—talking to the guy from the IRS or
17 talking to your accountant? You're going to talk to
18 your accountant before you're going to talk to the IRS.
19 The association is your accountant and EPA is the IRS.
20 NEW SPEAKER: I would believe my peers first
21 before I would believe anybody else, in things like
22 this.
23 NEW SPEAKER: You know, it really isn't any
24 question on that.
25 NEW SPEAKER: I'm just thinking of our
26 association, like who would sort through the
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1 information, and which pertains and what don't pertain.
2 Then you start getting into the legality part of it, and
3 be missing something or not—you know—
4 NEW SPEAKER: And that was going to be a
5 question. I hate to poo-poo something like this, but
6 sooner or later that's going to come in to play—where
7 the association starts generating information and all of
8 a sudden a few people start suing those associations—
9 NEW SPEAKER: Cause they didn't get the right
10 information.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Right information that they
12 generated. I'm afraid that's going to happen some day.
13 NEW SPEAKER: The one thing that I heard here—
14 and I heard it from the dry cleaners, I heard it from
15 myself, I heard it from the automotive people—it seems
16 like every one of us are dealing with the fly-by-
17 nighters—the people—
18 NEW SPEAKER: It's probably worse in our
19 industry than in yours.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Right. The people that don't
21 really care whether they're in business tomorrow or not.
22 I have 450 customers. And we've been in business 47
23 years. So we've done something right over them 47
24 years. As long as I'm in charge, we're going to
25 continue doing everything right. But it all comes down
26 to a cost, and if you have something that is simple to
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1 understand and implement, it's a lot less costly then
2 something that you got to dig through and you don't
3 understand. The biggest controversy we just had was the
4 112(r). Do we have to do anything or don't we have to
5 do anything? And this is part of the Clean Air Act.
6 It's called the worse case scenario planning. What if.
7 It's a what if. A what if! I understand [P.H.
8 Gladfeller*s] "what if is evacuate Adams County, York
9 County, part of Cumberland, and part of Maryland, in
10 their "what if scenario. Because they use chlorine up
11 there in tanker—railroad tanker cars. What if one of
12 those things ruptured? You've got, basically, when
13 chlorine gets with water vapor it produces hydrochloric
14 acid. What if? And that's the area it can cover.
15 That's what they're saying And so we don't have—we
16 don't meet the threshold planning quantities for any of
17 the chemicals, but they put in this general duty clause
18 that says if you have any toxic or extremely hazardous
19 substances, you have to have a plan. You don't have to
20 submit your plan for approval, but you have to have an
21 organized plan. That says that—
22 NEW SPEAKER: Does that apply to me?
23 NEW SPEAKER: Geez, I don't know.
24 MODERATOR: Where do you want to call or where
25 do you want to go to find out about this? What would be
26 helpful in terms of some more information?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Well, what we did is we had an
2 out side environmental engineering consultant to come in
3 and say—well, yeah, you should have to do this, but you
4 have everything. Alls we have to do is put it together
5 in a book so you have it here. You don't have to submit
6 it, but you have to have an organized plan. So—
7 NEW SPEAKER: See, our guys aren't going to
8 hire individuals, because most of them are barely making
9 a living as it is.
10 NEW SPEAKER: I was going to say, if you have
11 a one or two person shop, that's virtually impossible.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Well, the bet is, you know, ride
13 with it, and if they come in and they close me down, I
14 go to work for somebody else.
15 NEW SPEAKER: I thought it was—his fee was
16 $750, which I thought was fairly reasonable. You know,
17 I paid more than that—
18 NEW SPEAKER: For that one particular thing,
19 but you're only talking about one thing.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Yes. Correct. We paid a lot
21 more. I mean, Phase I—our bank required us to have a
22 Phase I environmental study done on the property before
23 they would even give us any money for the air project
24 that we had to do. Now we had to spend $12,000 before
25 we could even get started on the air project, so the
26 bank felt secure that the property was good enough to
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1 loan us the money against.
2 MODERATOR: Okay. Let me get back to how to
3 get information that you need?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Associations.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Associations.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Associations.
7 NEW SPEAKER: There's no easy answer.
8 NEW SPEAKER: No, there isn't any easy answer,
9 and I don't believe that there is—I really don't know
10 what it would be that anybody could do to get everybody
11 into the fold. I mean, you are only talking about
12 getting to the people that are conscientious and want to
13 do the right thing. You know, unemployment is what,
14 four, four and a half percent, or whatever? Those
15 people don't want to work. I mean, they aren't going to
16 work no matter what. And there's going to be a certain
17 percentage of people in all of our industries that
18 aren't going to comply, irregardless of how easy they
19 can obtain the information. They just aren't going to
20 do it. Unfortunately, the way businesses—that I see it
21 today, there's too much emphasis that's put on the
22 dollar. Not that there shouldn't be an emphasis on
23 being able to make a profit and pay people and do all
24 that, but too many of our customers are willing to buy
25 a product from someone for a nickel, or a dime, or a
26 dollar less because it saves them that amount of money—
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1 helps their bottom line. And in some instances they
2 know that that product will work for them, but it's
3 coming from an organization or it's coming to them
4 without all of the—what am I trying to say? Well,
5 approvals, all of the acceptances, and everything else
6 that the other supplier may offer to them. You know, we
7 inventory large—not large quantities. We bring in
8 tractor-trailer loads of hazardous materials. Now, we
9 don't bring in any perchlor or anything like that.
10 Everything is water soluble. So, we went through a
11 thing with the fire department. Had to put lock box so
12 they could get into the building and do all this other
13 stuff. And I said—for crying out loud, if there's ever
14 a fire here, use anyone of these products to put the
15 damn thing out. [Laughter] It's not going to burn.
16 It's not going to do anything else. Use it to put the
17 fire out. But we carry insurance. Our truck drivers go
18 to school. We have all the hazardous endorsements to be
19 able to move this stuff, to do it and that. We can't
20 even ship products by— If we ship it, we have to— A
21 lot of carriers won't carry it now because the drivers
22 are afraid of it. They don't know what it is. A couple
23 weeks ago they shut 83 down, and that was water soluble
24 chemicals and the driver had no idea what it was. He
25 thought it was on fire, and there wasn't any fire or
26 nothing else, but they shut all of Interstate 83 down.
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1 [Laughter] A couple of hours. [Agreement]
2 NEW SPEAKER: Probably read in the MSDS or
3 something. [Laughter]
4 NEW SPEAKER: So we're not going to get around
5 that. I really don't know how you get around that. So
6 you've got one company that's doing everything that they
7 possibly can, and they seem to be the ones paying the
8 penalty. They are the ones that are trying to do right,
9 like Dave, but, yet, he ends up by being hit by whatever
10 regulatory agency, because, to me, some ways it seems
11 like they know that he'll do this. So they go and pick
12 on him.
13 MODERATOR: Alright. You're telling me we need
14 better regulations? Not because of you, necessarily,
15 but the other guys?
16 NEW SPEAKER: No. Just simpler regulations and
17 enforce the simple ones.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Simpler and enforce them
19 uniformly.
20 NEW SPEAKER: So that everybody's doing it.
21 NEW SPEAKER: I'll tell you, this is pretty
22 good, because if I want to communicate with the EPA,
23 okay, I do it through my attorney—
24 MODERATOR: Because?
25 NEW SPEAKER: Because you got attorney-client
26 privilege. If you have a certain problem and you want
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1 to get EPA or DEP's thoughts on it, and you call them up
2 and you say—hey, I've got this problem or I think I
3 got a problem. Guess what? You'll probably going to
4 have an inspector standing at your front door the next
5 day or the same day. So if I've got a problem or I
6 think I have a problem, I call my attorney, explain the
7 situation with him, and say—okay, call DEP or call EPA
8 and see what their take is on it.
9 MODERATOR: Okay. How do other folks do it?
10 NEW SPEAKER: These guys can't afford it.
11 NEW SPEAKER: I don't know who to call.
12 NEW SPEAKER: You don't call.
13 NEW SPEAKER: The majority of the people won't
14 call. The majority of the people won't call.
15 NEW SPEAKER: That's one of the questions, you
16 know. If you had somebody to call— because we said
17 earlier, and we kind of glazed over it real guick—but
18 if you called somebody and you got a determination or
19 they told you to do it this way, and you do it that way,
20 and some time later— And I've heard stories—I don't
21 know how true they are—but I've heard stories that
22 somebody told them to do it this way, and later it was—
23 no, that wasn't right. And they were either cited or
24 told they had to do it a different way. You know,
25 somewhere along the line there's got to be a method of
26 saying—okay, if we call you and if we get the
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1 information and this is what they tell us to do, then
2 they can't come back next year or next month and say—no
3 that person didn't know what he was doing, or that
4 person is know longer with us, and things have changed.
5 You spent a hundred thousand dollars. So what? It's
6 not right today. Maybe we just didn't understand. We
7 didn't understand right. Now this is the way it has to
8 work.
9 NEW SPEAKER: That adds to the fear because
10 everybody is afraid because everybody knows that most
11 people did things years ago that they don't do today.
12 I mean, I know when I was a lot younger, it was nothing
13 to drink a couple beers and drive your car. It was
14 nothing to drink beer and drive your car. I mean, it
15 wasn't right and it wasn't legal but—
16 NEW SPEAKER: I tell you one good thing EPA is
17 really good at communicating to you. When you got a
18 problem some place and they know about it, you'll get a
19 registered package this thick. Because from 1981 thru
20 1988 we shipped to a reclaiming facility
21 trichlorethylene solvent. December 1996 we're notified
22 that we're a PRP at that site.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Industrial Solvents?
24 NEW SPEAKER: No. Wasn't in that one.
25 NEW SPEAKER: I have—Galaxy/Spectron's on my
26 list.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Well I got that. [Laughter] I'm
2 in [Kemp Clean] down in [inaudible]. And we're getting
3 a bill, probably the end of this month, for the first
4 installment for $46,000. The total bill, our part. We
5 didn't do anything wrong. We paid good dollars to this
6 company to clean it. We even did a survey on it, on the
7 company, before we started going there because we were
8 involved in Galaxy/Spectron before that, so we thought—
9 well, we'll check this place out. And there wasn't
10 anything that said they had a problem, but yet, they had
11 a problem. They had the problem before we started
12 dealing with them, but yet, nobody was notified.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Because of laws that were passed
14 for their privacy.
15 NEW SPEAKER: And now they're still in
16 operation on the site. They're still selling product
17 out of that site. Now everybody that ever dealt with
18 them while they were in the reclaiming business has to
19 pay to clean up their site. And the whole total
20 package, I think, is $18.8 million. And I'm on the
21 Technical Committee of the Deminimus [inaudible] too, so
22 I have very good experience. And it really burns my
23 butt that I've got to pay the EPA $93,087 for something
24 that I didn't do.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Didn't do a thing wrong.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I didn't do a thing wrong, and
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1 that's just another damn thing (expense) that—I gotta
2 go borrow the money, cause I don't have 93 grand. Any
3 of you guys got—? Well, Quay probably does.
4 [Laughter]
5 NEW SPEAKER: These sales people. [Laughter]
6 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, we're the one's that make
7 it all. Yeah.
8 NEW SPEAKER: But this is what I'm talking
9 about. I've attended meeting after meeting with people
10 from EPA Region III. A big public meeting down close to
11 the site, the high school, and basically the Deminimus
12 Group, the Demaximus Group tried to communicate with
13 them and tried to work out some kind of deal, and it's
14 still $18.8 million. It's redundant. It's so much
15 money. It's a five acre track. Bulldoze the damn
16 buildings and put a cement cap over it. It's gonna cost
17 a hell of a lot less.
18 NEW SPEAKER: How much of that's attorney's
19 fees, though?
20 MODERATOR: Okay. You brought up some
21 interesting points. You mentioned EPA. You mentioned
22 EPA Region III, and we've talked about DEP. Let's talk
23 a little bit about Region III, Philadelphia, and what is
24 your experience in communicating with them? Have you?
25 How?
26 NEW SPEAKER: Through my attorney.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I tried but couldn't get through
2 to then.
3 MODERATOR: You tried, how?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there's an 800 number. I
5 went and tried to find out what, for the air
6 conditioning equipment, for the reclaiming, do you need
7 to have it registered for the Freon. But I wasn't sure
8 if ours was registered. I never did find out. I mean,
9 I got a run around and then there were—couldn't find
10 the— I don't know if they have records or don't have
11 records to try and find out if it's registered or not.
12 NEW SPEAKER: That's a bit—the couple times I
13 did call Region III, I don't think I ever got a hold of
14 anybody either. You know, you try and explain to the
15 person that answers the telephone what you're looking
16 for, and if they can speak English well enough that you
17 can understand them, they might get lucky and find the
18 right person.
19 NEW SPEAKER: They, too, have all the
20 regulations, and they don't have the people that
21 understand each and every one of them.
22 NEW SPEAKER: I think that if they would have
23 industry-specific people. You know, maybe they can
24 take—one person maybe can take multiple industries.
25 But if you can understand them particular industries,
26 and they have a—be the contact person, and at least
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1 know what—
2 NEW SPEAKER: What I said earlier, Barry, and
3 it concerns me every day, is that some legal person will
4 get in there and hinder them from telling you the true
5 facts of the question that you ask. You'll get this
6 huge run around. You will never get a direct answer,
7 and I would love to have what you have, is one sheet of
8 paper saying this is my regulations. This is what I
9 have to abide by. You'll never see it.
10 NEW SPEAKER: And on something that even—I was
11 just thinking—even for, like, our association, if you
12 have a mechanical shop here, here's the things, the tax
13 number, you know, things you should have and be doing to
14 run a legitimate mechanical shop and also a body shop.
15 And have EPA information, DEP, the sales tax, you know,
16 all that. It's not just—
17 NEW SPEAKER: Environmental Regulations for the
18 Body Shop for Dummies. [Laughter]
19 NEW SPEAKER: I must admit right now, the body
20 shops haven't been regulated very much at all for the
21 materials we're dealing with. And, you know, there is
22 some things out there we try and do, but it just drives
23 my cost up. Nobody else is doing them.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Strange enough, the industry did
25 propose the VOC regulations.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Good. But if nobody else is
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1 doing it, how am I going to compete?
2 NEW SPEAKER: And in our business we're doing
3 body shop quality painting, and yet I'm under the VOC
4 regs and have to count my gallons and all the different
5 stuff. It's incredible what I have to do.
6 NEW SPEAKER: There is some—I would actually
7 like to see some VOCs to a limited extent. They got
8 carried away with trying to keep track of how much you
9 got left in the can and what you [inaudible]. That's
10 nonsense, but there is some that I think is—should be
11 done, that should be necessary. But my fear is that
12 isn't made across the board. You know, everybody—if
13 one shop has to do it, they all should have to do it.
14 MODERATOR: Okay. Anymore experience with
15 Region III? Sorry to cut you off.
16 NEW SPEAKER: My experience has personally been
17 good. I believe some of it comes from my personal
18 dealings with Dick Daly, being invited to a couple of
19 meetings when the enforcement people decided that they
20 wanted to inspect dry cleaners last summer. Prior to
21 that, they called a meeting of our associations, and a
22 few of us went, met with the enforcement people, met
23 with the small business people, and the state DEP air
24 quality people. And I thought they understood what was
25 going on, because the head of the enforcement from
26 Region III said—I understand you have an unfair
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1 competitive advantage when the [inaudible] guy on the
2 corner doesn't do anything, and he's able to turn it out
3 at half the price. And those are the guys we're going
4 to visit. We're going to visit all of you—as many as
5 we can within the next three months. I felt he
6 understood. So I think—something I wrote down—EPA
7 needs to work with associations to compile regs in an
8 understandable fashion. I think that probably, from my
9 stand point, that would be the key to success, is trying
10 to garner more involvement up front, rather then letting
11 us have to deal with it after it's already a law and the
12 regulations are promulgated.
13 NEW SPEAKER: You know what? I think in our
14 industry also, I think there's—with this Strategic
15 Goals—I think we're getting more input also. We now—
16 our industry has the luxury of having a seat on the
17 Environmental Board at the Federal level. So they are
18 taking notice when we finally identify just how big of
19 an industry we are and what our industry means to—
20 NEW SPEAKER: Economy.
21 NEW SPEAKER: The gross national product.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Out of curiosity, how many
23 electroplaters do you figure there are in Pennsylvania?
24 NEW SPEAKER: In Pennsylvania?
25 NEW SPEAKER: Roughly.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I know there's around
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1 13,000 of them in the nation. The biggest centers for
2 the plating industry is in the central part of the
3 state—Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio.
4 Pennsylvania is one of the larger states. Most of your
5 jewelry plating is done in Rhode Island, and then you
6 have a lot of a—
7 NEW SPEAKER: So 13,000 nationwide. How many
8 dry cleaners?
9 NEW SPEAKER: 30,000
10 NEW SPEAKER: In Pennsylvania?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Nation. We have about 1,500.
12 You can go into unemployment, like we're at SIC Code
13 7216. You can go in and, by SIC code, get the number.
14 NEW SPEAKER: We have roughly in Pennsylvania
15 10,000 mechanical shops—in Pennsylvania alone.
16 Unfortunately, it becomes—and a lot of them don't even
17 have shingles hanging out. They do it for their
18 neighbors and so forth.
19 MODERATOR: Let me ask you, because we started
20 out with a suggestion, and this is one of the things I
21 really would like to walk away with, is your wish list
22 of what you want EPA to do different in terms of the
23 regulatory information.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Simplify it.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Stakeholder groups. Stakeholder
26 groups really covers what your— everybody that has a
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1 stake in it. Both sides.
2 MODERATOR: Okay. And you mentioned some
3 examples of that—the air quality for instance.
4 NEW SPEAKER: We did air quality and we're
5 doing one with the [inaudible] in Central Pennsylvania.
6 That's state government. But it seems to work rather
7 well, although it's cumbersome and takes quite a while
8 to get some—you know, we're talking about a year to
9 something done, and it's been done in two locations
10 already. But it's very interesting in the fact that you
11 get—everybody that's trying to arrive at regulations
12 gets a chance to communicate with people that live the
13 other part of it. You get a chance to talk to the
14 regulators and see what's their—what they have to do,
15 you get a chance to talk to the environmentalists that
16 want pristine air, and you've got those of us that are
17 trying to deal with making a living in the industry.
18 NEW SPEAKER: This is really good because this,
19 what you call stakeholders, and our industry calls it
20 strategic goals. And it really is, because we have DEP,
21 we have EPA, and we have representatives from industry—
22 not as many as we would like, but it's growing. And
23 it's something that's been going on for a short period
24 of time—less than a year, or maybe just a little over
25 a year now, I guess. So it is growing, and I think
26 that's basically what it is. But our stakeholders
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1 group, through the Strategic Goals, is setting goals for
2 the year 2000 and the year 2002 or 2005 to try to
3 achieve. And we're setting up different enforcement and
4 education, and—
5 NEW SPEAKER: And stakeholders basically don't
6 get into it at that level. They help write the
7 regulations.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Right. That's what's happening
9 at the upper echelon of our organizations. They're all
10 in there trying to get the proper regulations—sound
11 basis for the regulations—not just because we say this
12 is the way it's going to be. Let's do it
13 scientifically. Any, you know, let's prove that it's
14 worthwhile to do it for the environment, and not at
15 absorbing a cost to the industry.
16 MODERATOR: Okay. These are two terrific
17 suggestions. What else do you want to tell top
18 management at EPA?
19 NEW SPEAKER: I think one of the big keys is
20 what we mentioned earlier, is them keeping it simple so
21 it can be enforced, and then making sure there is
22 enforcement there.
23 MODERATOR: Okay, urn—
24 NEW SPEAKER: You're dealing with—you're gonna
25 say enforcement—you want to say enforcement—uniformed
26 enforcement.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Uniformed enforcement.
2 NEW SPEAKER: Correct.
3 NEW SPEAKER: You're not picking on the easy
4 ones. When they were trying to write the regs they were
5 looking to pick on easy ones to target.
6 NEW SPEAKER: The ones that are easy targets
7 like me, they know is going to do it. The ones that—
8 In our industry, if you go and you target this guy and
9 you say—okay, you've got to do this, now all of a
10 sudden he can't afford to do it and he walks away. Now
11 all of a sudden you've got yourself a Superfund site
12 sitting there in a neighborhood, more than likely,
13 because a lot of the plating industry is located in
14 residential areas, or what—part of, you know, an
15 industrial development. Most plating shops are family,
16 handed down from generation to generation. And, you
17 know, sometimes it gets pretty ugly in the older
18 generations, so—
19 NEW SPEAKER: See, I think they ought to
20 enforce it all on electroplaters and dry cleaners cause
21 they're easy. [Laughter]
22 NEW SPEAKER: Ease of understanding, I think.
23 You're dealing with groups up above, but I think, in
24 general, ease of understanding.
25 NEW SPEAKER: We're not so easy to move around.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Just for everybody in general.
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1 If you're not member of an association and/or don't have
2 the time to deal with a stakeholders group, just make it
3 easier for us to understand.
4 NEW SPEAKER: See ours is easy. All of our
5 tool boxes are on wheels. You just roll them out.
6 [Laughter]
7 MODERATOR: Okay. Four excellent points here.
8 Anything we left out that came up?
9 NEW SPEAKER: I think you covered it. All the
10 good things I've heard come through the associations.
11 MODERATOR: Okay. And that was the first
12 suggestion, and I did hear that loud and clear tonight.
13 NEW SPEAKER: You know there is, I can
14 truthfully say, there's been a softening in the last few
15 years from storm trooper attitude at the state level.
16 I don't deal much with the EPA, because we're regulated
17 through the state DEP. And we find that they're more—
18 they're listening more, you know. They're trying to—a
19 couple years ago I said when the last business leaves
20 Pennsylvania, please turn off the electric, you know?
21 [Laughter] That's turned around a little bit.
22 NEW SPEAKER: I think Governor Ridge and
23 [inaudible] have done a good job. [Agreement]
24 NEW SPEAKER: Excellent job.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Rather than storm trooper, they
26 used the term "command and control.'
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1 [Laughter]
2 NEW SPEAKER: And now it's switched really to
3 what they call P2 or pollution prevention.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
5 NEW SPEAKER: I really feel it's a lot more
6 working relationship, working together to try to achieve
7 a common goal. Which would really be better for the
8 environment for all of us.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Well, a question, I think, in our
10 case, too. Our statement was that a few years ago you
11 felt like they had a fence around and a wall inside that
12 and barbed wire on top, and in case you got across that,
13 the National Guard was there to keep you out. And now
14 they invite you in to sit down and talk to them and
15 stuff. That is certainly a positive thing that's been
16 happening, and I think that's probably why we're saying
17 stakeholders or things, because the results that we've
18 seen from that have been very positive. You know, both
19 directions with communication—understanding their
20 problems and understanding what the other people want to
21 see, and trying to explain to them our problems in
22 dealing with that. I think it's most amazing, though,
23 that you find out some of the people that are really
24 strong ones on some of these environmental things— I
25 know the one guy that always fought that, he would run
26 out at break time and have two cigarettes. [Laughter]
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1 We were at an air quality thing and he's smoking
2 cigarettes, so—
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Well, there's also—you
4 know, you have environmentalists that don't practice
5 what they preach to a lot of times, so—
6 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. That's what I meant. If
7 air quality's important, you don't smoke cigarettes.
8 [Laughter]
9 MODERATOR: Alright. You've been a fabulous
10 group. I have one last request of you, and that is—
11 This deals with types of information, how you want to
12 get it, and your access to things like the Internet. It
13 will take about 7 minutes and a—
14 NEW SPEAKER: We're running past 8:30?
15 MODERATOR: Well, we started at twenty of. I'm
16 sorry. [Laughter] But we have 7 minutes left
17 [laughter] on my watch. Thank you. And then the EPA
18 folks have some information for you, which they'll hand
19 you on your way out.
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How to do it [comply] is probably a certain thing, because a lot of times the things you see, they don't really tell
you how to do it, just that you've got to do this. But how to get it done, that's— For a lot us there are one or two
men in the shops and things like that. Spending the time figuring out how to do it, it takes too long.
What technology is available? I think that is a big thing. The vast resources of all the three digit organizations,
they get in places. They know what's working and what isn't working. You don't necessarily have to tell people
who has it or what, but it would sure be nice to have some place where you could go and gleam the technology
that works.
There's so much of that that goes on. I mean, just the complication of a lot of the regulations and everything that
the EPA puts out. You need a Philadelphia lawyer to explain it to you in the first place. That's what I find. You
know, I'm a simple person. You know, I have a business. I have enough headaches, and every time a new law
or new regulation-let's call them regulations, because most of them are not laws— comes out, then we have
another headache to deal with.
I would say it would also need to be industry-specific so, you know . . .This is for body shop, for, you know-
different industry-specific guidelines so that you don't have to try and sort through all kinds of other stuff that
doesn't pertain to you.
you gotta remember the average dry cleaner has seven to ten people in their shop. When they're doing their
regulation monthly work, or whatever they've got to do to fill out, they're doing it at home on their kitchen table.
These are generally simple, working people that can't employ-don't have the money or the resources for an
environmental engineer or environmental attorney. You've got to have it so it's easy to understand and comply
with, and then they'll do it. Most of us want to comply with environmental regulations, but I'm not going to sit
down for a week trying to figure it out or pay somebody $275 an hour to tell me how to do it.
We sell equipment that uses solvents as cleaning now, but the manufacturers of this machinery don't really
understand what the regulations are. The majority of them take a position that the regulations on a national level
are one thing, but in a lot of local municipalities and local governments, they have different regulations. They
also get into a matter of interpretation, where the law or regulation is maybe simple or maybe complex, and it's
now a matter of interpretation, where someone applies it one way in one area and a different way in another area.
We see that with what we do, where some locations people are allowed to do something in treatment and in
another area they aren't. And the manufacturers of the various pieces of equipment that are trying to market and
sell treatment machinery to do this—they don't really understand the regulations. They don't try to understand the
regulations, because they don't want to get in the middle by telling someone that this will work, and maybe it
does work in one location according that interpretation, but in another location it doesn't So there's that
confusion.
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I sat on a stakeholders for Pennsylvania that they talked about-well, don't you read your MSDS's? First of all,
most of the terms on there, I don't understand the chemical language. And secondly, the one that I did look at
was for hand cleaner, and it had on there you should wear gloves. I assumed the MSDS was made from a
computer. It had a chemical in it, and the computer kicked out that it would be wise to wear gloves with it. So
do I have a lot of faith in them? No, I don't understand them. That bigger issue we were talking about-parts
cleaner—they were saying we should know what we are buying. Well, you know, they come with chemical
names and stuff. I call a parts house and say-send me a barrel of parts cleaner. I don't ask what it's made out of,
because I wouldn't know what—you know, I know when I work on a part, whether it cleans part or not, but I
don't know what chemicals work. I don't have the resources to find out about that.
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If you happen to read some—one of these organizations that want to sell you a service says—oh, by the way you
have to do this. And I said—well, what is this? So then you start doing the research yourself, and you find out—
yeah, you should be complying with that, but the organization that is responsible for that has never notified you.
I mean, there's no regular communications back and forth telling you or giving you a chance.
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When we had the stakeholders, we had groups and we had people that sold equipment. They actually
demonstrated and showed what the equipment did, which enlightened some of us that were not aware of what
equipment was out there, you know, like aqueous cleaners and so forth. And there were people from the
environmental side, there was somebody from EPA there, and those of us from industry. It was really interesting.
You would hear them bring up things, they'd go over regs or possible regs, and everybody would have chance to
kind of work with it and say-well, that doesn't work for us.
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I think that before any regs come out, they should go out and find out from people that it's going to affect and
how it relates to them before it's ever a reg. I mean, the brainy idea might seem good to them, but they don't
have no clue how it's going to affect us.
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some of the rules that-and I know EPA is hearing us out—but some of the rules are just like~the new emissions
program. Well, we have it in Philadelphia, we have it in Pittsburgh, we're going to probably have something in
York County, but Adams County is okay. You know, the air doesn't blow up over Adams County. It's no
problem there. Either the~you know, if you're doing something to clean the air, which travels all over, why
wasn't it statewide, nationwide?
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I think EPA and the other regulatory agencies take the same position—that we publish it in the Federal Register
and we put it out there. And now it is your responsibility to get that information and act upon it. Well as Charlie
said earlier, I get so doggone much stuff across my desk, I just throw half of it away. I mean, I will make a half a
second decision as to whether I even open an envelope or not. If it looks like it's anything away from my
business, I won't even open it. I have even started to refuse to fill out these questionnaire forms for ISO 9000
and that. I've got a stack of them that high on my desk I keep on getting, and I have told people, if you want to
pay me for an hour or two to fill out your paper work so you can get a certification, I will do it. I mean it's
ridiculous. So what's happening is that there's too much information that is given to all of us or is put out there
that we are supposed to act upon, and we don't have enough time to do that and run our businesses.
Some of that information you get, when you open it and stuff- I know I open it and I read it, and I say— how does
this apply to me? I don't have a clue how it applies to me.
I think one of the things EPA, DEP needs to get together and basically say-okay, in Pennsylvania if you want to
run a body shop, here's what's required. And basically have almost like a body shop booklet, and there'd be
another one for other industries. You know, so you don't have to sort through books and books trying to figure
out what you got to do and you don't have to do, and then have all these different interpretations of— EPA
conflicts with DEP, and, you know, it needs to be somewhat combined in them.
Write it in simple terms . . . that we can understand and does not leave you open for some legal recourse by some
organization out there because you didn't understand it.
I have Internet access, and on my 'favorite places' I have the DEP, Pennsylvania Department Environmental
Protection. I have the EPA on there. I have a Web site that's called RTK, which is Right To Know. And I have
a site on there that's called Score Card, and the last two are environmental groups. In other words, they're out to
get the bad guys if the EPA don't. And I go on the DEP Web site, and for the most part, I can find what I want,
but it's going to take me a while. And I can't say any different for the EPA's. Now the Strategic Goals Program
for the Metal Finishing Industry, we have our Web site also. And I can truthfully say that that is one of the better
Web sites that I go in. I think it's easier to find your way around. Of course, the American Electroplaters Service
Finishers Society has their own Web site. And so does the National Association of Metal Finishers. I get more
information from the trades that I belong to about environmental things, because we have-our industry is
extremely environmentally-oriented.
you can find information on the Web sites, but it takes a lot of time to dig through them to get it. There's not-if
there was just a place, like, on the Web sites that says-okay, this is for the metal finishing industry and this is
what's— this is the things that are going on. Or the dry cleaners-this is the new laws that we're working on for
the dry cleaners, and the automotive repair industry-
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But I think that's the job of our association-and I've big on associations for almost 20 years now—is that I find a
real value, and that is let them, with their government regulation people, sort it out, put it in plain sense English
for us in a short paragraph that it says-boom boom boom— this is what you've got to do. If you do this, do this,
or go to this place to find out that information. And put it into plain sense so that people like us, that are busy
running their businesses every day, can have short blurbs. Whether it's on the Internet, on a fax-by-demand, give
me what I need.
That's maybe a way to get it-would be industry-specific and through the specific associations that service the
different industries. Like the American Society for Metal Finishers and Platers. Maybe somehow EPA or the
different regulatory agencies would be able to develop what is specific for an industry, and then work with those
industry associations.
If someone's going to tell me something that is coming from EPA or whatever, or I need to talk to them, I'm
going to— no, I don't think so. Maybe tomorrow. But if it's coming from my association-hey yeah, I'm going to
listen and I'm going to talk to them about it. I think the credibility is definitely more on the side of the
associations or someone other than the government. And I don't particularly care what organization it is.
I would believe my peers first before I would believe anybody else, in things like this.
Well, there's an 800 number. I went and tried to find out what, for the air conditioning equipment, for the
reclaiming, do you need to have it registered for the Freon. But I wasn't sure if ours was registered. I never did
find out. I mean, I got a run around and then there were-couldn't find the- I don't know if they have records or
don't have records to try and find out if it's registered or not.
EPA needs to work with associations to compile regs in an understandable fashion. I think that probably, from
my stand point, that would be the key to success, is trying to gamer more involvement up front, rather then
letting us have to deal with it after it's already a law and the regulations are promulgated.
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U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Region III
Public Meeting on Environmental Information
+ + •*• + +
Frederick, MO, Environmental Educators Discussion
Group
+ + + + +
March 18, 1999
The Outreach Discussion met at Hood College,
Rosenstock Hall, Room 2, Frederick, Maryland from 6:30
p.m. to 8:30 p.m., Deborah O1Fallen, moderator.
PRESENT;
REBECCA BEECROFT, Brunswick High School
KAREN KING, Clarksburg Elementary School
RICHARD KNIGHT, Rocky Hill Middle School
JEFF GARRISON, New Market Middle School
DALE E. PETERS, Urbanna High School
SEAN STEVENSON, Cedar Grove Elementary School
LORI STILES, Brunswick High School
MARK SUNKEL, Linganore High School
ROSE ULRICH, Boonsboro High School
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1 MODERATOR: I just wanted to thank everyone for
2 being here and introduce you to our sponsor this
3 evening. This is Diane HcCreary from Region III, and
4 let her say a few words of welcome before we get
5 started.
6 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) Hi. I wanted to welcome
7 all of you. I'm the one that's been harassing you with
8 all the phone calls, [laughter] and I wanted to thank
9 you very much, especially for sticking with us during
10 all the weather problems and for spending a few hours of
11 your time with us this evening. I'm the Regional
12 Librarian in Region III. I'm in charge of running the
13 library, and we serve both the internal EPA staff and
14 the external staff, or the external public of the EPA,
15 which is how I got involved in the Public Access to
16 Environmental Information project. I also graduated
17 from Penn State with certification to teach secondary
18 English, and I'm not sure that buys me a whole lot of
19 points with this group, but I did spend ten weeks doing
20 student teaching, so I have an idea what it's like to
21 stand in front of a classroom. That was a while ago,
22 though. So, again, thank you for coming here. We're
23 going to try and get your ideas of what kinds of
24 information the Agency can provide to you and to your
25 students, and how we can do that best. We're basically
26 revamping our Public Access program in the Regional
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1 Office. We're kind of starting at zero, and we're just
2 looking for some good ideas from all of you on how best
3 to proceed with this. With me tonight is my colleague,
4 Larry Brown. Larry is the Environmental Education
5 Coordinator for Region III, and you're going to talk to
6 these folks after the discussion.
7 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) I'll tell you a little bit
8 about our program and the environmental ed grants and
9 different things that—opportunities, maybe, to work
10 with you, partner with you, etcetera. And, again, thank
11 you for coming.
12 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) Okay. And we'll turn this
13 over now to Deborah, and talk to you after the
14 discussion.
15 MODERATOR: Okay. Wow. Well, this is great.
16 I was a little concerned, since we had to cancel once,
17 that you guys might wimp out on us. So I think it's
18 great that you're all here and that we're able to start
19 on time like this. We are planning on being here about
20 two hours, and I'll definitely stick to that—get us out
21 just a little after 8:30. I am not an EPA employee.
22 I'm from a company called Princeton Economic Research,
23 and we call ourselves PERI. PERI is an outside
24 consulting firm, and as independent consultants, we're
25 responsible for getting, more or less, unbiased
26 understanding of the information you currently receive
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1 and the information you need with regard to EPA. Now
2 Region III is holding this series of meetings through
3 the Mid-Atlantic states to get feedback from users and
4 potential users on environmental information topics. So
5 this is one of those meetings, and it's going to be used
6 as part of an effort to redesign the way Region III
7 handles its information. So you all have pink forms.
8 If you haven't filled one out, please fill it out and
9 pass it forward. That form is there because we are
10 video and audio taping. There are people behind this
11 wall peeking in. I think you've met all of them minus,
12 maybe, one, which would be one of my colleagues, and I
13 think there might be a professor lurking back there
14 who's interested as well. And this information is a
15 part of public record. So any member of the public does
16 have access to it. It's not going to be on CNN next
17 week. [Laughter] Sorry to disappoint you. I'm very
18 sorry to disappoint you. In today's discussion group,
19 we'd like this information to come out of discussion
20 amongst yourselves, not from me querying each of you or
21 going around the table. But, please, I encourage cross
22 talk, I encourage disagreement, and I encourage both the
23 positive and the negative. I'm not going to be pleased
24 or disappointed by anything you say. As I said, I'm not
25 an EPA employee. And I'm here to find out your candid
26 answers and your candid responses to the topics that
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1 we'll be posing today and that I'll be walking you
2 through today. So, I think, to start the group, a
3 little ice-breaker. Just ask you to go around the
4 circle, introduce yourself—your name, a little about
5 yourself, your school, what grades you teach. We could
6 start over here?
7 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. I'm Rose Ulrich. I'm a
8 biology teacher at Boonsboro High School in Washington
9 County. This is my thirtieth year. We are presently
10 involved in starting a big project. We have a complex
11 of elementary, middle, and high schools that are very
12 close together, and there's a storm water management
13 basin. And we're going to be putting in there a
14 wetland, a wild flower meadow, and a forested area. And
15 we've already got people lined up to start the work—
16 soil conservation people from the county and so on. So
17 we're excited about that opportunity for all three
18 schools and the students there, not just science people,
19 but other people also to bring students in and work with
20 them.
21 NEW SPEAKER: My name's Jeff Garrison and I'm
22 a first-year teacher. I taught at Brunswick High
23 School—biology, and biotechnologies in the Fall. And
24 currently I'm at New Market Middle School teaching
25 science and some social studies.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Dick Knight. I'm a science
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1 resource teacher—IRT—at Rocky Hill Middle School.
2 I've been teaching for 31 years, and I'm not sure why
3 I'm here. [Laughter]
4 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Karen King from Clarksburg
5 Elementary, a feeder school to Rocky Hill Middle School.
6 We send them on to him. And in addition to my teaching-
7 -I teach special ed, fourth and fifth grade—this year
8 I started an environmental club at Clarksburg. So
9 students in fourth and fifth grade applied to and were
10 selected by lottery to have an opportunity to do some
11 activities. We meet once a month, and today we had our
12 first stream study. That's why I'm dressed like I am
13 today. Came right from school to here.
14 NEW SPEAKER: My name is Lori Stiles. I teach
15 at Brunswick High. I teach biology and environmental
16 science, and I also coach the Envirothon. And I'm here
17 to become more aware of what's out there for the
18 classroom.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Dale Peters. Science Chair,
20 Urbanna High School. Teach biology, environmental
21 science on occasion as demand requires, and piloted a
22 science research course this Fall for the school system.
23 That course has had guite an environmental focus to it,
24 as far as the types of projects that students have
25 chosen to do. The course requires them to fund their
26 own research by writing grants. Most of our grant money
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1 has come from either the Chesapeake Bay Trust or the
2 Department of Natural Resources right now. Even our
3 Student Government Association gave us a 300 dollar
4 grant for the projects. But we have been working with
5 DNR in developing a plan to take over management of
6 Urbanna Lake, not too far from the school, as far as
7 some water quality studies, trail system of whatever, to
8 use that for an outdoor study area as well as developing
9 a wildlife study area on our own campus along Urbanna
10 Creek. And I'm not sure if you're—you may be involved,
11 Lori, in the Monocacy Watershed Project with Hood
12 College—
13 MODERATOR: I'm sorry. Democracy?
14 NEW SPEAKER: The Monocacy River Watershed
15 Project that most high schools in the county are
16 involved with through the college here. So we have an
17 environmental focus.
18 MODERATOR: Okay. Mark?
19 NEW SPEAKER: My name's Mark Sunkel. I teach
20 at Linganore High School. He used to be my former boss
21 at Urbanna High School. [Laughter] I've been teaching
22 16 years. I teach biology, environmental science, and
23 physical science sometimes, depending on numbers. And
24 I'm interested in what resources you can provide to the
25 school system which would not cost the school system
26 because they're a bit tight on money, in Frederick
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1 County, at least.
2 MODERATOR: Okay. And Sean?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Hi. I'm Sean Stevenson from
4 Cedar Grove Elementary, a feeder school, also to Rocky
5 Hill. This is my first year in Montgomery County. I
6 came from PG, where I taught there for 6 years, and each
7 year there led different programs called Stream Teams.
8 We did adopt-a-stream, tree plantings, recycling
9 efforts, stenciling efforts for storm drains—just a
10 variety of things. And I just came here basically out
11 of curiosity. And I just want to continue those
12 programs here in Montgomery.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I'm Rebecca Beecroft. I teach at
14 Brunswick High School with Lori. She's my Department
15 Chair, and under her guidance we're developing a fairly
16 aggressive, I guess you could say, environmental program
17 at Brunswick High School. And we're also involved in
18 the Monocacy Watershed Project with Maureen Foley, who's
19 based right here at Hood College. And I'm here because
20 I'm real curious. I didn't have a clue what this was
21 all about. [Laughter]
22 MODERATOR: Well, let's start down this path,
23 and maybe we can start to answer some of those
24 questions. The first thing I'd like to investigate
25 here, and this is for anyone, please, I'd like to hear
26 a little about what kinds of environmental information
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1 you use for your environmental education efforts.
2 You've noted a variety of things you're into here. I'd
3 like to hear about them.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Well, one of the things that we
5 do at eighth grade, we have a very extensive project
6 program for GT kids. And they mostly—
7 MODERATOR: I'm sorry. GT is?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Gifted and talented.
9 MODERATOR: Okay.
10 NEW SPEAKER: And most of the data for that is
11 gathered off the Internet. What we try to do is to find
12 an environmental, or not necessarily environmental, but
13 all kinds of project ideas. And the data gathering for
14 it is Internet data. And so they go out and try to
15 locate the resources. Environmental data has been very
16 difficult to get, anything other than very superficial
17 stuff, you know, where they just kind of explain, you
18 know, what does it mean. But we're after, you know,
19 what are the point sources of pollution, what are the
20 water quality studies that people have been doing, you
21 know, kind of professional organizations and stuff. And
22 that's been difficult to lay our hands on, and that's
23 what I'd like—I guess that's the main reason I was
24 here—to see if we could figure out some way of
25 streamlining that process to get to the kind of data
26 that we're looking for.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: And a lot of the students in our
2 environmental science classes are getting frustrated
3 with using the Internet in that a lot of the Web sites
4 we find no longer exist or have been changed, which—
5 NEW SPEAKER: The data's old.
6 NEW SPEAKER: —kills that process. Even
7 written—I'd copy addresses of organizations and wrote
8 to organizations, and we get a lot of mail coining back
9 to us saying that there's no group at that address or
10 person at that address or organization at that address
11 we're seeking. So that's been a frustration for the
12 students, because in our environmental classes at the
13 high school level there's an action plan required in
14 that course. And, you know, finding resources is tough,
15 and I think that it's frustrating for students. My
16 students in my science research class, the same way.
17 We've been somewhat lucky as far as getting a lot of
18 resources out of the Maryland Sea Grant group as well as
19 the Chesapeake Bay Trust, and DNR has been very helpful
20 for us, but resources are a problem.
21 MODERATOR: Anyone else?
22 NEW SPEAKER: It's been my experience that,
23 getting resources, you have to know someone within the
24 different company or organization, and that's your in-
25 road to get the materials, resources that you need. But
26 if you don't have that contact person, then it just
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1 seems a little overwhelming, and that gathering things
2 becomes difficult. My best successes have been when 1
3 was introduced to someone or, you know, just through
4 various contacts, networking, I've met someone, and then
5 just took it from there. But just going up and trying
6 to find something without having that in-road of knowing
7 someone, collecting information resources was, you know,
8 impossible.
9 NEW SPEAKER: I think the time involved is a
10 really crucial factor, because with environmental
11 science you need up-to-date information. You can't use
12 stuff from ten years ago. You need stuff that's going
13 on right now, you know, like current events, and the
14 time involved with trying to find that information can
15 be staggering, especially when you have a lot of other
16 things you have to do. It's one of the hardest things.
17 MODERATOR: Can anyone share with me an
18 experience they've had where they have found
19 information. You said through knowing people. Have
20 there been other ways? How else might you find the
21 information?
22 NEW SPEAKER: We have had an in-service in our
23 county every year—a couple of in-services, actually—
24 and one of the ones this past Fall was a gentleman by
25 the name of Richard—am I allowed to use names?
26 MODERATOR: Yeah.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. [Laughter] Richard, I
2 think his name was, Popham. P-O-P-H-A-M. A satellite
3 consultant. And he's trying to get students to monitor
4 a stream, I think it's every two weeks for an entire
5 year. And he had a poster that I brought along that is
6 really neat. Can I show you this poster?
7 MODERATOR: Great. Yeah. Let's see it.
8 NEW SPEAKER: He was giving these things away,
9 but we didn't know about it, and we said—I said,
10 "What's that for?" And he said, "Well, since you asked,
11 it's yours." This is when it was over. And I haven't
12 used it with students yet because I haven't gotten to
13 ecology, but it does have EPA mentioned here in a few
14 places. These are some graphs. Graphs are really good
15 for students, and you guys all know that, to see some
16 different kinds of data and so on. It mentions
17 Chesapeake Bay Program. "Based on the analysis of
18 monitoring data and records from EPA and other
19 agencies, ' and such and such. So this kind of thing is
20 really—I don't know about you guys—but helpful to show
21 students different kinds of things. And this is just a
22 very small poster, really, and a lot of information is
23 on there. And this, I'm not sure what the date is on
24 this, since you're talking dates, or if there is one.
25 I don't see one, looking quickly. But that looks like
26 it's fairly up-to-date. So I just was able to go to
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12
1 that in-service in our county, which biology teachers
2 were going to anyway, and I ended up with a poster.
3 NEW SPEAKER: And you said—what county are you
4 in?
5 NEW SPEAKER: Washington.
6 MODERATOR: Anyone else have an experience or
7 a method that has worked in terms of getting
8 information?
9 NEW SPEAKER: Most of the information that I've
10 gained this year has been through attending seminars or
11 trainings. I went to the Aquatic Resources Connection
12 in the Fall that was held for the, I think the entire
13 State of Maryland, but it was held at the Smith Center
14 in Montgomery County, so it was convenient for me. And
15 I also went to the one in Ocean City in January—the
16 Maryland Association of Environmental and Outdoor
17 Educators in, urn, it was in Ocean City this year, and I
18 think Annapolis next year. And both of those have been
19 good sources of information. So I think the trainings
20 have been my best in-roads in making connections,
21 networking, kinds of things.
22 NEW SPEAKER: As far as the previous comments,
23 yeah, again, time is a factor. There are those that
24 will take the time or have the time to go to the
25 conference, workshop, seminar, whatever and—
26 NEW SPEAKER: Or that's willing to pay for it.
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13
1 NEW SPEAKER: —if and when you get some
2 financial support, that helps too, as far as getting
3 there. But, yeah, [inaudible] is getting training,
4 maybe a day training, or whatever, word-of-mouth,
5 whatever it takes. But just simply going in cold,
6 searching on the Web or whatever, just, it can be a lot
7 of wasted time.
8 MODERATOR: Um-hm. Are there any Web
9 experiences? Has anyone had a positive Web experience
10 they could share? Some site or place they've gone to
11 that's been very useful.
12 NEW SPEAKER: I can share kind of a negative of
13 that.
14 MODERATOR: Okay.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Endangered species, I guess, is
16 part of EPA's focus. I guess it would be [inaudible].
17 so I was able to obtain a Web site address for
18 endangered species, and I typed it in and everything,
19 and our county filtered it out. I don't know if you
20 guys have filters at your level where the students
21 aren't allowed to see certain things or whatever. Well,
22 I figure since this is a controversial item, that's just
23 why it was filtered out. It's filtered out at our Board
24 of Education itself, at the, urn—whoever's in charge of
25 all that. And I can call the guy up and ask him to
26 remove it so I can look at it myself and then determine
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14
1 if it's okay for kids. But I think, probably, the
2 controversial aspect of it—this is what I was told—
3 that's probably why it was blocked, because I couldn't
4 get to it. And it was a Web site suggested by either
5 Current Science or Science World magazine. I don't know
6 if you're familiar with those. I get those every two
7 weeks in school for the kids to work with. So that
8 sounded like a really good Web site, and I just couldn't
9 get to it. So—
10 NEW SPEAKER: I couldn't cite any specific Web
11 site addresses off hand, but one of the magazines I get-
12 -E-Magazine—does provide a lot of good resources in
13 terms of Web sites, and most of those seem to be up and
14 really functioning, as far as one resource.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Not all schools are
16 technologically advanced. My classroom just got wired
17 for the Internet.
18 MODERATOR: Okay.
19 NEW SPEAKER: My computer is hooked up now to
20 the Internet, and we've had the wiring for years. It's
21 just never been hooked up. We have one computer in the
22 library that's hooked up to the Internet. So if you
23 want to take 30 kids, you can only use one at a time,
24 unfortunately. It will change in the future, but—
25 NEW SPEAKER: One good Web site that I found
26 last year via word-of-mouth, and ended up actually
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1 having the person from the World Bank that's setting up
2 a Web site come to classroom, was on populations and
3 sustainable growth. And it's on World Bank. It's a
4 wonderful Web site, and a lot of good interactive
5 activities right there on the Web that you can also
6 download and use, you know, as hard copy. And
7 Maryland's DNR Web site is not bad. It has links to
8 others, like Chesapeake Bay and some like that. That's
9 an excellent Web site. It also has a huge list of
10 telephone numbers with people's names [laughter] and
11 their specialty areas.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Our librarian is very techno, and
13 that what he has—a group of kids that follow in his
14 path, and not so much good Web sites, but if we have an
15 interest in a topic, we can throw it down, like
16 recycling, for instance, and his group of little network
17 of kids will actually try to find sites for us. And
18 they'll screen them, and then they come up as part of
19 our home page. So if we take the kids to the computer
20 lab, instead of them having haywire going this and that,
21 they click right on something that's already been
22 developed, and it helps everything run much smoother in
23 the lab itself.
24 NEW SPEAKER: My concern with the environmental
25 sites is that most of them seem to be very general and
26 don't—you know, we want to get the kids down to
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1 actually looking at dissolved oxygen rates in different
2 parts of the Chesapeake Bay and stuff like that, and
3 that kind of data, environmental data, is hard to find.
4 We have much better luck with other fields. You know,
5 weather, geology, earthquakes, volcanoes. I mean, we
6 can get tons of data. But the environmental data seems
7 to be very superficial, and the EPA site is very
8 confusing, and you just follow dead leads that, you
9 know, and just get lost within the site. It just drives
10 us nuts looking for those very specific pieces of data.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Have you looked at all at the
12 University of Maryland's Center of Marine Biotechnology?
13 They've got a pretty decent Web site that does have some
14 data in it.
15 NEW SPEAKER: No. We've had pretty good luck
16 with DNR. It's a good place to kick—to start off from.
17 Some of the Chesapeake Bay Trust has some good leads
18 that will get you started places. But, you know—
19 NEW SPEAKER: The CIA Web site's pretty good.
20 Anybody use that? Buddy, our librarian, is the one that
21 turned me on to that one and showed me, and it's got all
22 kinds of emissions information and population
23 information and GNP information.
24 NEW SPEAKER: CIA?
25 NEW SPEAKER: CIA. And the kids love going
26 there. [Laughter] It's great.
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17
1 MODERATOR: I've heard a number of you mention
2 the Internet. What sort of services are available? You
3 said, Mark, that you had sort of limited services.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Limited right now, but other
5 schools in our county do not because they're newer.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Watch it. [Laughter] We still
7 have our problems. We have a real problem with fire
8 walls, that we're hooked into the county system as far
9 as Internet access, and that's a real problem for us, as
10 far as people accessing us and we accessing other
11 people. I had a real problem getting us set up with a
12 [inaudible] station. And, uh, we're wired, but we have
13 our communication problems too.
14 MODERATOR: Okay. Anyone else? Internet—what
15 sort of services do you have available for yourselves in
16 your schools?
17 NEW SPEAKER: Our school is about the same age
18 as Urbanna. We're a middle school, but we're fully
19 networked with three computer labs and 200 computers, or
20 something like that, in the school. And so we've got
21 access—every room has one computer access, and then I
22 can take a class of kids into the computer lab and put
23 them all out on the Internet at the same time.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Our school is—we probably have
25 per kid, or classroom, some of the largest numbers of
26 Internet, but our librarian is a computer nut and he
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1 goes to [inaudible] flea markets and puts together
2 computers to bring them back. So we're—our computers
3 aren't pretty, but we can do what the pretty ones do.
4 NEW SPEAKER: He has a couple of kids that work
5 with him to rebuild them. It's something great.
6 MODERATOR: What about you folks at the grade
7 schools?
8 NEW SPEAKER: For an elementary school I feel
9 very fortunate. We have—my classroom has a computer
10 with Internet access. The kids don't typically use it,
11 but I use it for information for myself. And I do—will
12 go to specific Web sites and pull them up for the kids
13 to use in my class. In our library we have a hub of
14 about 6 computers that have Internet access. But again,
15 typically they are used in the same way, that our media
16 specialist would bring up specific Web sites for them.
17 They don't have the opportunity to do any searching, and
18 probably don't need the opportunity. [Laughter] And
19 then we do have a computer lab, but only one computer in
20 the computer lab—the teacher/demonstrator model—has
21 Internet access
22 NEW SPEAKER: I'm in the same boat. What I've
23 noticed is that my kids are very computer savvy, so they
24 are going home and doing searches on their own, and then
25 bringing back information to the classroom. If I use
26 the Internet, it's me working at home or at school
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1 checking everything out, and then maybe printing certain
2 documents and then have them on display. I'm a little
3 leery, still, of having fifth graders at the computer,
4 especially if there's just me and 32 of them, and just
5 monitoring what they're doing.
6 NEW SPEAKER: I know even doing very simple
7 searches, some of the things that have come up, I would
8 be leery about letting students—
9 NEW SPEAKER: And it's not even—they're not
10 purposely doing anything. [Agreement] They make, you
11 know, little errors and things happen.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. It only takes one. I mean
13 I —
14 NEW SPEAKER: They don't even have to be
15 errors. [Laughter, agreement]
16 NEW SPEAKER: I did the fourth grade—I taught
17 the fourth grade science units the last few years, and
18 my guppies were dying, so I just did a search for
19 guppies to see, and I got some questionable sites just
20 typing in the word guppy. I don't know how guppy gets
21 anywhere, but it does. So the Internet has been a
22 source of information for me, but not for the students.
23 And I have used some of the sites listed—the Chesapeake
24 Bay Trust, the Maryland Department of Natural Resources-
25 -mostly for grant writing that I did in the Fall.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I'd like to mention also, uh,
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20
1 pardon me. At our high school, we're just recently
2 renovated to the science area. We're into our second
3 year of having a brand new science renovation. We have
4 seven science teachers full time. Six of us have a
5 classroom and the seventh teaches in the cafeteria
6 because there's just no room. We knew it was going to
7 be really overcrowded because our enrollment's
8 increasing. So she's in, like, my room for her—during
9 my planning period and somebody else's room during
10 their's and the cafeteria the rest of the day. We have
11 a science computer lab consisting of 15 computers. They
12 now are all Internet-linked. They don't always work.
13 The computers don't always work. They're still working
14 out all these bugs of having things just not going right
15 sometimes. In each of the six science classrooms—
16 classrooms slash labs—we have eight computers, one of
17 which is designated as a teacher computer, which is
18 hooked to Internet. The rest are—they keep telling us
19 they are going to be wiring them for the Internet. That
20 was in the original plan. It should have been done last
21 year, still isn't done this year. We have a problem
22 with only three computer technicians for the whole
23 county, with five to six thousand computers that they
24 deal with. And you guys probably have some similar
25 situations where you are. So they're trying to fix all
26 these different things and get new things up and
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21
1 running. So I haven't yet checked anything ecologically
2 on the computer, but I've been some doing things on
3 genetics and things like that. So some of the Web sites
4 I've experienced are good. Haven't had my students yet
5 in the computer lab, but I intend to do that before the
6 year's out. Once all the bugs are worked out, then I'll
7 go in and it will all work perfect [inaudible].
8 Everybody else can troubleshoot. But I'm anxious to get
9 my kids on the computers. I really am. So that's where
10 we are with them. Oh, and then each other teacher in
11 the school who's not a science teacher has one computer
12 in the classroom, and that's Internet-linked also.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I was very spoiled over at
14 Brunswick, because I taught at Brunswick High School in
15 the Fall, and then at New Market Middle for the Spring.
16 And at Brunswick I had, for the biology classes that I
17 taught, there were 6 Internet-capable computers that
18 were in the classroom, and it was very convenient to
19 have—they could perform their own searches. They had
20 cards that they needed to take home and get signed by
21 their parents to say that they were allowed to have that
22 kind of access. And it wasn't very hard to monitor the
23 6 computers and keep everybody busy, because everybody's
24 in the same room. There was also a computer lab that
25 was fairly available if you signed up, maybe two days in
26 advance, that I could take other classes to if I needed
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22
1 everybody to have their own computer. At New Market, I
2 don't have any computers in my classroom and the
3 enrollment—well, it's overcrowded. The school is very
4 overcrowded, and it's hard to get the kids in to use the
5 computers, and then once you do get them in there, it's
6 very hard to monitor what they're doing, and you're
7 supposed to have them looking at one specific site.
8 Like, you pick out the site, you have all the computers
9 ready to go on that site, and that's the only place that
10 they're supposed to be. They don't do any search on
11 their own. So it's almost a waste of time to even go to
12 the computer lab. You might just want to make a couple
13 of copies of the file and give it to them as a handout.
14 Once you take them out of the—especially with the
15 middle school kids—you take them out of the classroom
16 environment that they're used to and put them into a new
17 situation, things get a little bit—a little bit
18 haywire, and they don't know how to react to that. So
19 if I print some things out from the Internet to give to
20 them, and say, like, this is the Web site where I found
21 it. If you would like to look at it, you might have—
22 they have "specials' time in the morning, where they
23 might get to go to the library, and they can ask the
24 librarian to help them get onto the site, or most of
25 them have computers at home where they can find that
26 kind of thing. So right now, anyway, I'm finding it's
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23
1 not really that necessary to have them go and use the
2 computers in school. With the computers not being in
3 the room, it's a real disadvantage to take them to—and
4 it's hard to get anything accomplished by taking them to
5 the computer lab. And also with availability, if the
6 computer lab is not available whenever it comes up as
7 that time in the curriculum that you need to do it, then
8 it's useless to take them after the fact.
9 MODERATOR: So I sort of feel like what I'm
10 hearing is, at the grade school level, the Internet is
11 more useful to teachers and predominantly used by
12 teachers, and somewhere in middle school there starts to
13 be a transition, and in high school it is dominant. The
14 students are actively using the Internet in class and
15 with classes and it's integrated into the curriculum?
16 I'd like to go back to an issue that we—I think,
17 Richard, that you had mentioned—reliability. Finding
18 reliable information was a difficulty. Have other folks
19 here had that problem, and how do you address that when
20 you're trying to figure out if something is reliable?
21 What do you do?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I've always stressed with
23 my students, in any kind of research, that they've got
24 to read whatever they find critically in terms of trying
25 to find out who is behind what they're reading, as far
26 as the validity of the data. Or, you know, we have
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24
1 found a number of what sound like wonderful
2 environmental organizations, and then you find out after
3 some research that they have nothing really to do in
4 terms of supporting environmental issues, and more pro-
5 business or have money—industries backing them or
6 whatever. And the students need to learn to be very
7 critical in their evaluation of a site or information,
8 whether it be a magazine or a Web site. And they've
9 been misled, to some degree, on some of the things that
10 they've found, thinking that this is a great resource,
11 and they find out later on that it may not be such a
12 great resource, in terms of valid information and in
13 terms of a supportive organization, once they find out
14 who is financing behind the organization. That's led to
15 some good discussion with the students, when you find
16 some of those.
17 MODERATOR: What else do you do to try and
18 figure out if information is reliable? Are there people
19 you trust and don't trust?
20 NEW SPEAKER: Well, we tend to trust—maybe we
21 shouldn't—the uh, you know, if it comes through with a
22 government, you know, one of the government agencies as
23 being the sponsor of it, I'll put a little more validity
24 to that than some other person—group that we don't know
25 who they are. So if it's a EPA site or it's a NOAA site
26 or it's a USGS site, you know, we'll consider that to be
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1 fairly valid data. But, you know, one of the things—
2 trying to get to this critical analysis of data, I
3 think, is something that we now have an obligation to
4 work on, and I'm not sure—middle school kids—how
5 sophisticated they are at being able to do that.
6 They're still trusting of, you know, if it's on the
7 computer or it's on TV or it's in the book, that it's
8 correct. [Agreement] And it's really kind of fun to
9 say—well, here's one guy saying one thing and here's
10 somebody else saying something else. You know, which of
11 these two points of view are you going to accept? And
12 I wish we could do more to develop the kids' ability to
13 discern, when they look at that data. It's a whole
14 curriculum in and of itself.
15 MODERATOR: Anyone else? Rebecca, you had
16 mentioned earlier timeliness—getting things very
17 quickly. Have you had a good experience with that, or
18 how do you try to get the most timely data?
19 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I do use the Internet,
20 hoping that the data that's on there is the most current
21 and up-to-date. Sometimes I'll be reading through this
22 information and I'll think, yeah, this is really—then
23 I get to the end and it will say 1996. And it's like,
24 ugh. Some of the scientific journals have current
25 information, but even that isn't as current as you need
26 it to be because there's such a down time between
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26
1 submission and rewrites and actual publication that it
2 can be a year to two years old too, I tend to think.
3 And the text books are always about four or five years
4 behind, so it's hard. I don't have an answer for it.
5 I try to get the most current. I think it's a constant
6 search. I haven't found a good solution for it yet.
7 NEW SPEAKER: One source that has worked for me
8 off and on, not so much with environmental kinds of
9 things, just other things. If you find one of your kids
10 has a mom or a dad or an aunt or an uncle that works for
11 a certain agency or works for somebody, and they say—oh
12 yeah, you know, they would overstock something and just
13 throw them away, or they just recycle them or something
14 like that. So I ask them to bring them in for extra
15 credit, you know.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Don't throw anything away.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yes. Don't throw anything away.
18 Exactly. So I've gotten some nice publications and
19 things like that. National Geographic and some
20 different kinds of things. So I don't know of any of my
21 students this year who have an environmental link. I
22 haven't—you know, they haven't told me if they do.
23 Maybe if I go out and ask them tomorrow I'll find
24 somebody. But my kids are usually very willing to—you
25 know, especially the college-bound kids—very willing
26 to, oh, you know, bring this in and share it and bring
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27
1 a video tape in of something, you know, that I look at
2 on my own, and then if it's appropriate I'll show it to
3 the class or parts of it or something like that. So
4 that's a good source there, and they're really usually
5 proud to say—oh yeah, my mom works for this person, or
6 something like that. So that's one, maybe, if you try
7 that angle it may work.
8 MODERATOR: Now do you still have this
9 timeliness challenge at the middle school and grade
10 school levels? Is that as pertinent?
11 NEW SPEAKER: I don't think—I think maybe our
12 goals may be different. I don't want to speak for
13 Karen, but for me, it's—emphasis is—let's get in there
14 and actually do something that's hands-on. Then we can
15 interpret the data for ourselves and maybe compare it to
16 other data, but it's not really a search to see other
17 things that are going around in our community. It's,
18 urn, let's do something that can empower and impact the
19 kids, and they can see how much of an emphasis they can
20 have on their own environment, and just develop a love
21 for being involved with environmental things. So it's
22 more like that. Something that, you have to break it
23 down to their level. So timely information from
24 different organizations doesn't really impact the
25 programs that I have been a part of.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I agree with that, and I really
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28
1 feel like I'm just getting my feet wet this year getting
2 starting with—
3 NEW SPEAKER: Literally.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Quite literally. [Laughter]
5 NEW SPEAKER: —getting started with the kids,
6 so my goal has been to get them to gather information,
7 not so much seeking information. I'd be interested in
8 comparing the stream data information that we get, and
9 compare it to other schools within our cluster—the
10 Damascus cluster of Montgomery County is unique to the
11 rest of Montgomery County—and compare our data to other
12 parts of the county. I know some of the schools have
13 their stream data on their Web site in Montgomery
14 County, but—
15 NEW SPEAKER: And submit it sometimes with the
16 agencies.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I was—yeah, I'd like to find a
18 means to share the data that we collect so that the
19 students find it more meaningful, and it's not just us
20 playing in the stream and playing with this great new
21 equipment that we just got this year, but, urn, gathering
22 that information that would be meaningful to someone
23 else as scientific data.
24 NEW SPEAKER: There's really a window of
25 opportunity in the Damascus cluster because it's still
26 relatively untainted in many of the parts, and, yet,
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1 over the next 5, 10 years it's going to become urban.
2 NEW SPEAKER: The master plan for Clarksburg—
3 NEW SPEAKER: The master plan for Clarksburg is
4 to become urban. And it would be a wonderful
5 opportunity to start gathering that data right now—
6 logging that stuff and collecting it over the next 5, 10
7 years and see what changes take place from, you know,
8 not just stream data, but I'd like to see, you know,
9 locations of houses plotted and locations of forests
10 plotted and, you know, and really do
11 longitudinal/latitudinal study of this area.
12 NEW SPEAKER: The master plan is to take
13 Clarksburg from a town of 1,700 to 30,000 over the next
14 thirty years.
15 NEW SPEAKER: A lot of it will be--it will
16 happen faster than that.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Clarksburg has been relatively
18 unchanged in the last 25 years, and I hate to see it
19 come. Rocky Hill was the biggest thing to hit
20 Clarksburg in the last 25 years.
21 NEW SPEAKER: We have an outdoor school in
22 Washington County—Fairview Outdoor School up by Clear
23 Spring. And I've taken students there, like, for a day-
24 -not actually there, but through the Fairview group, to
25 the Potomac River. And they gather data, and, you know,
26 they store it then in—however they store it at the
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30
1 outdoor school. We just recently changed the fifth
2 grade program. It used to be a whole week where they
3 would go up and stay overnight. Now it's a three day
4 program. But it's more—I understand—now more
5 scientifically-oriented to doing water testing. There's
6 also a pond there on the actual outdoor school site,
7 where they don't have to actually go to the river for at
8 least part of that. So apparently they are collecting
9 data and keeping it up there. I'm not sure if it's been
10 shared with anybody or anything like that, but that's
11 just been recently that they changed that program. So
12 I think we're going to be seeing kids entering middle
13 school, high school with more, maybe, environmental
14 kinds of leanings and data and knowledge than what we've
15 had in the past.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Frederick County's kind of
17 [inaudible] situation right now. Maureen Foley is here
18 at Hood. She's actually developed a Web site for
19 Monocacy Watershed Project, and all the different high
20 schools are assigned to different streams too. And
21 we're going to be doing what's called "Snapshot1 in the
22 Spring, where all the high schools are going out within
23 a specified period of time to monitor their stream
24 sites. Then all that data's going to be compiled and
25 displayed on the Web site so that we all have access for
26 it. And it's supposed to be sent out to Colorado too,
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1 isn't it? Aren't they going to be linking some of the
2 information up out there for a national? Did I remember
3 hearing that?
4 NEW SPEAKER: I think so.
5 NEW SPEAKER: So, in that sense, we'll be
6 performing some of the up-to-date, current information.
7 We'll see how valid it is. [Laughter]
8 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, right.
9 NEW SPEAKER: But by having everybody .out at
10 the same time and looking at everybody else's stuff, we
11 ought to be able to get a pretty good picture. Okay,
12 how are we doing? Are we doing this right? You know,
13 does our stuff look—?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Are you using the same kinds of,
15 like, water test kits and things like that?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. To keep it valid that way.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm. Because for years
19 everyone was doing it (yeah) , but there was no sharing.
20 I know Linganore was doing it and we were doing some of
21 that. Actually, we were out of our turf doing it up
22 near [inaudible]. But it's not—kind of seemed like, you
23 know, it was fun, you got the kids out, but now what
24 do you do with the information? And the beauty of this
25 Hood taking charge is they've done all the hard work,
26 you know, and they've made it very easy. They've
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32
1 provided the money, they provide the transportation, and
2 things like that. So it's perfect. And that situation,
3 now, I'm not sure everybody's as fortunate to have that
4 kind of contact. But it definitely seems to help.
5 Schools are jumping into it, or they should jump into
6 it.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Well, they have that structure
8 there.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Sort of all established.
10 MODERATOR: I'm interested in so many things
11 you just said. But first I'd like to approach the topic
12 of partnerships. It sounds like there's one partnership
13 that's available with Hood College in the area. What's
14 the interest in having partnerships, and especially
15 possibly having EPA or the Regional office facilitating
16 in some way partnerships with other schools? What's the
17 potential there? Do you—?
18 NEW SPEAKER: I think the potential would be,
19 speaking for our green selves, very good. [Laughter]
20 NEW SPEAKER: Maybe you can chime in, but there
21 would be a method to our madness, for sure. But I think
22 time is such an essence, and then you're trying—and,
23 you know, a lot of times the only way we seem to get—
24 grab these wonderful contacts is on our own [agreement],
25 and that's what drives us to keep doing it. And a lot
26 of times it's just not thrown—if it's thrown out to us
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33
1 at any of our department share meetings, it's a very
2 tiny group, and, you know, we miss it before it hits the
3 back. So I think that would be a wonderful gift.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, yeah.
5 NEW SPEAKER: We may be overwhelmed.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, absolutely. If you gave us
7 that structure and that guidance and that, you know,
8 where to put our feet, that would be wonderful.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Because a lot of times we want to
10 do all these field tests in which, first of all, we have
11 a trickle of a stream. Our woods is scary to be in.
12 [Laughter] Well, you can't even walk between anything.
13 And then you try to find a neat site, then you got to
14 find out who owns the property, can a bus get to it, do
15 you have the nerve to take your kids in that spot, what
16 happens if something happens, you know, and all of that
17 kind of takes the wind out of your sails.
18 NEW SPEAKER: We have Antietam Battle Field not
19 too far from us, over at Boonsboro about 6 miles, maybe.
20 Anyway, the middle school—grades five through twelve
21 are invited to, urn, through—I just got that mail today-
22 -through a certain individual, to take students. Again,
23 though, you have transportation. You got to get the
24 buses, and in our county there's no money for
25 transportation and all that kind of thing, so you have
26 to charge the kids, to go out and learn those things,
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34
1 themselves. Anyway, to make a long story short, that's
2 one thing which is available, and we're going to have,
3 hopefully, one of our teachers from our school taking
4 advantage of that in the Spring. They have certain days
5 when they go out and test the Antietam Creek, and so on.
6 And apparently that's all set up and, you know, you just
7 kind of get the kids there and orient them ahead of time
8 and do the testing. I haven't done it myself, so I
9 don't know how well it works. Our middle school, I
10 think, has done some of that, though. So that's, you
11 know, one opportunity we have, if we get everything
12 worked out.
13 NEW SPEAKER: I think they would move a lot of
14 the stuff that—there's been a lot of fun and games done
15 with taking water sample tests and all that kind of
16 stuff, but nothing—
17 NEW SPEAKER: Nothing serious.
18 NEW SPEAKER: A lot of really not meaningful
19 stuff. But if you could put it under an umbrella like
20 the Hood Program here, or somebody else that really kind
21 of could coordinate this into something where all the
22 pieces fell together and everybody was doing it, I think
23 there could be some meaningful work being done.
24 [ TAPE FLIP ]
25 NEW SPEAKER: If you have a larger group—Hood
26 College or, I think this is actually Department of the
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35
1 Interior, where this came from—somebody that knows what
2 they would like to have done, and then you have kids who
3 are willing to do it, and you can find time to focus it
4 in there, that's really good. Like you said, if he's
5 trying to start from scratch, it's very difficult
6 because of so many different things you have to work
7 with anyway. So if somebody has a need for it, and then
8 you can benefit from that data, the kids can benefit,
9 the kids can graph the data, they can do all kinds of
10 things. So partnerships, I would say, yeah, we're
11 definitely for in Washington County. Let's do
12 something.
13 MODERATOR: I'd like to make a list. Let's
14 brainstorm just a little bit right here. Uh, I'm
15 hearing structure a lot. I'd like to know, what do want
16 to see included in that structure for a program? So I'm
17 just going to put structure up here. Can everyone read
18 my writing? I heard someone say earlier, the
19 groundwork. You were talking about the groundwork,
20 Richard, or, was it you or was it you, Lori? The—
21 finding the site?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
23 MODERATOR: Finding the site. What else is
24 included in that? What else can make it easier for you?
25 What can make it more [inaudible] for you?
26 NEW SPEAKER: Writing materials.
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36
1 MODERATOR: Writing materials and—
2 NEW SPEAKER: Financial support.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yes, definitely.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Can you make one of them
5 [inaudible]? [Laughter] That would be number one if—
6 MODERATOR: I'll give it a star.
7 NEW SPEAKER: That's hard because the kids—
8 NEW SPEAKER: Standardizing the tests.
9 NEW SPEAKER: That's right.
10 MODERATOR: Standard—?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Standardizing the tests.
12 NEW SPEAKER: And the equipment used to do the
13 tests. [Agreement] Using the same stuff.
14 MODERATOR: Okay. So we want standard
15 equipment.
16 NEW SPEAKER: You know, think of like the GLOBE
17 program. You know, with all the problems GLOBE has with
18 NASA. They provided the—they're doing a lot of weather
19 stuff—but they provided the equipment. They provided
20 the stuff for doing soil tests. They provided the
21 equipment, everybody gathers the data at the same time
22 and sends it all in. And it's—
23 NEW SPEAKER: See GLOBE program
24 NEW SPEAKER: GLOBE.
25 NEW SPEAKER: GLOBE?
26 NEW SPEAKER: G-L-0-B-E.
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37
1 NEW SPEAKER: Soil?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Pardon?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Soil?
4 NEW SPEAKER: No, it's uh—they gather weather
5 data, they gather soil data, soil temperature, I don't
6 know what else in there. But they gave the schools that
7 enrolled in it, they gave them a package of materials,
8 they trained them on how to use the materials. And then
9 they—
10 MODERATOR: So training?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Training.
12 MODERATOR: Training is something—?
13 NEW SPEAKER: Training and expertise.
14 MODERATOR: Training and expertise.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Someone that's willing to lend an
16 ear and then, you know, give you some input so you can
17 avoid some pitfalls.
18 MODERATOR: Okay. So even, like, telling you
19 about the lessons learned, all that sort of stuff—
20 NEW SPEAKER: Follow-up support, too.
21 MODERATOR: Follow-up. Okay.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Like, just don't give us the
23 stuff and let us out there.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Some technical training.
25 MODERATOR: So you want them there with you
26 while you're out there doing it.
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38
l NEW SPEAKER: That would be good. [Laughter,
2 agreement]
3 MODERATOR: Is that what you're saying?
4 NEW SPEAKER: That would be good.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Another adult.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Another adult, that's right.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
8 NEW SPEAKER: And an adult with an air of
9 authority about the issue, which really means a lot to
10 the kids too.
11 MODERATOR: So an issue authority figure. You
12 were supposed to catch the spelling there.
13 NEW SPEAKER: We're all used to that.
14 [Laughter]
15 MODERATOR: You had said something else, Lori.
16 In there, I think I caught something on finding out who
17 owns the site?
18 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
19 MODERATOR: Ownership? So there's some other
20 groundwork happening there.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Right. [Agreement]
22 MODERATOR: Access? Make sure you can gain
23 access?
24 NEW SPEAKER: Also access to the information.
25 Once you get it, there needs to be a good way to get it
26 out to the other schools that are involved.
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39
l MODERATOR: So you would like help—I think
2 part of what I'm hearing there is someone to help you
3 compile the information. Share the information.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Compile the information and to
6 make that you can get it—the other schools'
7 information. It's not just your own.
8 MODERATOR: What you've collected [inaudible].
9 NEW SPEAKER: Maybe some more professional
10 development.
11 MODERATOR: Professional development?
12 NEW SPEAKER: So if people have an interest,
13 you know, it brings them together, first of all. So
14 it's a way network. And then anything that I can learn
15 from it, I'm going to bring back to the classroom, of
16 course.
17 MODERATOR: Uh-huh. And so you're saying some
18 network help too.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Network help and then just, like
20 I said, the professional development opportunities.
21 Just to increase my knowledge.
22 MODERATOR: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. What other
23 structure? What other things have—
24 NEW SPEAKER: Some standardized forms or
25 something like that, where you record the data.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. I'm going to call that data
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40
1 standardization. Does that—?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
3 MODERATOR: Standard— [Laughter]
4 NEW SPEAKER: So if you have several schools in
5 the county doing this, or however it's set up, that, you
6 know, the water temperature all gets put in that same
7 spot in the paper and everything, you know.
8 MODERATOR: And you want—so what I hear in
9 that as well, then, is you would like a program that
10 offers a structure that's going to reach out to a
11 network of schools.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm. Right.
13 MODERATOR: Is there agreement on that?
14 [Agreement] Is that a nice structural element? Okay.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Because when you do that it gives
16 the data more—it makes the data more meaningful to the
17 kids.
18 MODERATOR: Make the data meaningful.
19 NEW SPEAKER: They're not just playing around
20 out there. They're contributing to—
21 NEW SPEAKER: A greater purpose.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. [Agreement]
23 MODERATOR: What are ways that they can make
24 the data meaningful?
25 NEW SPEAKER: I think just getting it out
26 beyond the school. You know, getting to an organization
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41
1 that's doing something with it and it gives it its own
2 meaningfulness.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Also, with high school students,
4 if there could be some way that they could mentor the
5 middle and grade school students. In other words, if we
6 have high school students that are really interested in
7 this, let them participate with the young kids in these
8 stream studies. They can actually be the guiding people
9 that see the small groups of kids.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Well, environmental science is an
11 elective course, so it would be very good for
12 recruitment too, if you're doing— If you have a group
13 of students that's presenting this to a group of middle
14 school students that are thinking about what classes
15 they're going to take, you'd probably see a big increase
16 in enrollment if they know there's this type of activity
17 available to them, if they're interested in
18 environmental science.
19 NEW SPEAKER: I know something else too, that
20 speaking—I agree with what, urn, what Jeff is saying.
21 Jeff. Also, I know in our elementary feeder school,
22 Boonsboro Elementary, the Project Challenge teacher
23 there, which is like Talented and Gifted, is a former
24 biology teacher at one of our high schools, okay? And
25 so she has the kids doing so much more there than what
26 we have at the high school. We have no environmental
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42
1 science program at the high school level at the present
2 time. So those kids elementary-wise get a whole bunch,
3 middle school have been getting a little bit with the
4 Antietam project this summer, and now high school, it's
5 like, well—
6 MODERATOR: The Antietam?
7 NEW SPEAKER: The Antietam Creek. The one I
8 mentioned before.
9 MODERATOR: How do you spell that?
10 NEW SPEAKER: A-N-T-I-E-T-A-M
11 MODERATOR: Okay.
12 NEW SPEAKER: As in the Battle of Antietam.
13 MODERATOR: Oh. Okay. Okay.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Anyway, the elementary and middle
15 school kids get some stuff to do, and then they come to
16 the high school and it's all in the classroom. That's
17 one reason why we're trying to build this wetland-type
18 thing and all that, that's going to be right close to
19 the school. But, uh, so it's kind of the opposite of
20 what happens in some ways, but that's good. If the kids
21 get it young, in the young years, then they'll want to
22 have more of that and to continue it, because they can
23 be in the class and talk about—are we ever going to do
24 this, are we ever going to do that? Well—
25 NEW SPEAKER: Do we ever get to go outside?
26 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, get to go outside. Right.
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43
1 I'd rather be outside too, actually.
2 MODERATOR: So I think I'm hearing something
3 else in there that I wanted to draw out. Environmental
4 education is hands-on education.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Should be.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Should be. [Agreement]
7 NEW SPEAKER: In its ideal form.
8 MODERATOR: In its ideal form? And cross-
9 curriculum.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Oh yeah.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Oh yeah.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Definitely.
13 MODERATOR: How do you deal with that? How do
14 you try and draw that out in your lesson planning. What
15 sorts of things do you do? Let's start off with talking
16 about hands-on. What's available to be—
17 NEW SPEAKER: Environmentally? Not very much
18 with—now, I work with the kids with Envirothon, like I
19 heard somebody here say they do at their school also.
20 Urn, but there—we don't really, because of the field
21 trip situation, we don't really do a whole lot as far as
22 taking kids out right now.
23 MODERATOR: I'm sorry. The field trip
24 situation? Could you—
25 NEW SPEAKER: As far as finances.
26 MODERATOR: Okay.
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44
1 NEW SPEAKER: The kids have to kind of pay
2 their own way on the buses and all that.
3 MODERATOR: Oh.
4 NEW SPEAKER: And subs.
5 NEW SPEAKER: And substitutes. The substitute
6 problem too. Yeah.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Where there's no funds for that
8 at all, the kids have to—either you raise funds for it
9 through fund raisers, which can be nightmares in
10 themselves, or the kids pay a fee for each field trip
11 they go on. And it can be pretty hefty.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Yes, it can.
13 NEW SPEAKER: The bus for an eight hour day can
14 be around 160 to 170 dollars, and then a sub is another
15 75, roughly. So it's over 200 and some dollars for one
16 day. And that's just the bus and sub.
17 NEW SPEAKER: For a free public—for a free public
18 education, that is.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Right. Right. And that can be
20 pretty hard for some kids. [Agreement]
21 NEW SPEAKER: Plus they miss all the rest of
22 their classes too, because you'd have them on a field
23 trip the whole day, which is wonderful to take them
24 there, but then they have to catch up on their English
25 and their math and everything else. So it's really—
26 it's a financial hardship sometimes. It's also that it
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45
1 puts them back with their other classes. But if that
2 can be worked out cross-curricular—we've had that in
3 the past too. We used to have the ITO program.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Clear Spring, where I did my
5 student teaching.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, did you? Okay.
7 NEW SPEAKER: With Elaine [inaudible]..
8 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, I—okay. Yes. I kept
9 looking at your name. Okay.
10 NEW SPEAKER: And they had a wonderful cross-
11 curriculum field trip they did every year. I think they
12 still do it with all the ninth graders. English,
13 history, math, and science, and you have little modules
14 that they [inaudible] the whole day with these kids.
15 They also get funding for that through somebody.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, well, Elaine sees to that.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. She just E-mailed me and
18 said—I got my money for the field trip. [Laughter]
19 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah. I've got to talk
20 with you after this is over.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Okay.
22 MODERATOR: Networking right now.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. [Laughter]
24 MODERATOR: Any other—?
25 NEW SPEAKER: We try to have all of our seventh
26 grade students go out on a Chesapeake Bay Foundation
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46
1 trip. You know, whether it's one of the stream things,
2 it's, you know, community, or out on the skip jacks or
3 whatever, but we try to every seventh grade student on
4 a Chesapeake Bay Foundation trip. Now, the funding is
5 out of their own pockets. Although we do do a—sell
6 humanities tee-shirts and make some money to cover for
7 a lot of things. And support that, but, uh—
8 NEW SPEAKER: We sell those too. Tee-shirts,
9 ham sandwiches, and candy. [Laughter]
10 NEW SPEAKER: And we've got a science club
11 that's very active. She's got about 30 to 50 kids,
12 depending on which week it is, that she's got out, you
13 know, mucking around in the stream. And this poor
14 little stream is about this wide. [Laughter] But it is
15 we11-worked.
16 MODERATOR: Okay.
17 NEW SPEAKER: So, I mean, that's primarily
18 where we get the hands-on stuff.
19 MODERATOR: So, in extra-curricular activities
20 as well as—
21 NEW SPEAKER: Well, no. The Chesapeake Bay
22 Foundation—those are regular, during the school day.
23 MODERATOR: Oh. I see. I see.
24 NEW SPEAKER: They, at some point, generally in
25 the Spring, we get a ton of Chesapeake Bay Foundation
26 trips and we get most of the kids out there.
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47
1 NEW SPEAKER: You go locally, then?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Well, some of them or down to
3 Smith Island, some out on skip jacks, and a lot of them
4 are the stream restoration ones, though. Those are—you
5 get more kids and less interference and less cost on
6 those than you do with taking them out to Smith Island
7 for three days.
8 NEW SPEAKER: How do you decide who gets to do
9 that? I'd rather to go to Smith Island than go in the
10 stream.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Urn, I don't know exactly how
12 they—you know, draw straws or whoever their science
13 teacher is, or—? I mean, there's all kinds of ways of-
14 -they've used to try balancing that out, but—
15 NEW SPEAKER: There's also hands-on things in
16 the classroom, that you don't always have to leave.
17 That you can, you know, have the kids bring things in or
18 try to model something. But the only thing we have to
19 grasp from, basically, is that small little ecology
20 section in the back of a bio book. So that most
21 teachers have come back with their own little nutshell
22 of stuff from, once again, these extra pushes that
23 they've done themselves, whether it's attending a
24 conference or Project Wild or Project Wet, and then that
25 blows the doors off of that small little section. But,
26 you know, we try to do as much hands-on, even in the
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48
1 classroom, things too. Or bringing in individuals who
2 have the—you know, more materials than you, or set up
3 the lab and that kind of stuff, if you can't exactly go
4 outside for everything that you want to do.
5 NEW SPEAKER: This Advancing Science, I think,
6 is through Gettysburg College. It's a program—they
7 operate, what, within a hundred mile radius of
8 Gettysburg.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, they stopped in Frederick
10 this morning. [Laughter]
11 NEW SPEAKER: If you attend one of their
12 workshops, they—and they have a lot of nice equipment
13 that most schools don't have. And they will bring it to
14 your classroom to set it up and actually do the labs
15 with your kids.
16 MODERATOR: And that's called Advancing
17 Science?
18 NEW SPEAKER: Advancing Science.
19 NEW SPEAKER: They're funded through Howard
20 Hughes.
21 MODERATOR: So when you're developing
22 curriculum, you mentioned you have this little section
23 in the back of the bio book—
24 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Very little. It's called
26 ecology.
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49
1 MODERATOR: Uh. How do you use that?
2 NEW SPEAKER: [Inaudible] forty seven, forty
3 eight, forty nine, fifty. [Laughter]
4 MODERATOR: Okay. How do you develop that
5 environmental curriculum. What, uh, do you depend on
6 each other, on your network, on your own know-how? Are
7 there other references you can turn to, publications—?
8 NEW SPEAKER: The county.
9 NEW SPEAKER: It's part of our county
10 curriculum.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Our county designed the whole—I
12 mean, we can, you know, use our own little pluses
13 through that, but you were involved weren't you?
14 Weren't you part of that?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Michelle and I put the
16 curriculum [inaudible].
17 NEW SPEAKER: So once they put it together,
18 then, you know, this is your guideline. That's already
19 been developed for us. We just find the extra little
20 fun stuff to go with the—
21 NEW SPEAKER: [Inaudible] And it's scrambling.
22 [Agreement] That's what it is. That's the word I think
23 of is scrambling. We're just constantly looking and
24 grabbing and absorbing and thinking and hoping and
25 praying and begging and everything.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Improvising.
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50
1 NEW SPEAKER: Improvising. That's right.
2 [Agreement]
3 NEW SPEAKER: The Outdoor School in Washington
4 County—didn't Frederick used to have one? Didn't they
5 use Green Top for a while?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
7 NEW SPEAKER: That's not for high school.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Nothing like what Pearl Howell
9 has in Washington County.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Fairview is fantastic. It's just
11 fantastic. And that would be something that the EPA
12 could develop and fund. That would be great.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
14 MODERATOR: Can you expand on that. Explain
15 that a little bit?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Why don't you explain Fairview
17 for the—
18 NEW SPEAKER: Well, okay. Fairview used to be
19 Misty Mount. You mentioned Green Top. Misty Mount is
20 up here, what, [inaudible] whatever, next to Camp David.
21 Close to Camp David. Well, our fifth graders used to go
22 to Misty Mount for a week, and then it was decided to
23 build something right in our own county. And so that's
24 when Fairview came on board, and I forget what year that
25 was actually built. It's been up there quite a long
26 time, though. Urn, the fifth grade—well, actually,
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51
1 Misty Mount used to be open only for fifth graders, if
2 I remember correctly. The Outdoor School at Fairview,
3 around Clear Spring there, is open, not just to fifth
4 graders, but actually to any grade level. And that was
5 the design of that—to not restrict it to the fifth
6 grade, but to open it to high school kids. And what
7 they do is, they open up the high school slots around
8 the fifth grade schedule. The fifth grade schedule
9 drives, so to speak, the Outdoor School schedule. So
10 whoever does all the scheduling for that puts into place
11 when all the fifth graders are going, which schools go
12 when, and all that. So you can do a Potomac River
13 study, for example, a day trip, or you can do overnight,
14 or you can do, like, a weekend, or you can do a couple
15 of days in a row, or something like that, where they
16 can't stay overnight at Fairview, where you can bus them
17 back and—or they can—you know, something like that.
18 But as I said, it's much more now with the scientific
19 kinds of equipment, and I'm not sure what all they have.
20 There was an article in the paper in the Fall of the
21 year showing some students doing some kind of water
22 testing or something. And, yeah, Pearl Howell and her
23 crew up there are tremendous with that kind of thing.
24 But it—any teacher who wants to go can go through all
25 the process. Again, I'm trying to get everything
26 underway. But again, it's funding. Who's going to pay
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52
1 for the substitute, who's going to pay for the—
2 everything like that. Um, I have not yet been up there
3 since they've changed the program to see what all they
4 do now, which is the more scientific way, they said, of
5 doing it. It used to be, with the fifth grade prior to
6 this, a lot of it was more the kind of funsy, gamesy
7 things, you know? There was still some science stuff in
8 there, but it was more cross-curricular. Now I think
9 it's, pretty much, mostly the scientific kind of testing
10 of things. But I haven't seen the new one, so I really
11 can't speak—Pearl Howell could definitely speak to
12 that, and her crew up there, yeah.
13 NEW SPEAKER: The most vivid memory I have is
14 with Pearl taking them—first they caught fish out in—
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
16 NEW SPEAKER: And opening it up and showing all
17 the internal structure still working. [Laughter] So
18 these kids are standing around there, and the heart's
19 still beating. So it was pretty, yeah. Yeah, that's
20 real hands-on.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, it is. And I know with
22 the high school students, we—they have the big seines
23 at the Outdoor School, so I—
24 NEW SPEAKER: And they have a nice, good depth
25 pond there that they can use them with.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Use them in the pond, and
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53
1 then also in the river. And I remember I actually—they
2 let me grab one part of the seine and the water got a
3 little bit too deep. I had a student one year that was
4 shorter than I was, and he was actually—you have to
5 have your life preserver on, of course, even if you're
6 just—life-jacket—if even if you're just seining
7 because of safety, which is a good idea. He was just
8 floating. [Laughter]. Yeah, he was seining fish, but
9 he was actually floating. So, urn. But those are the
10 kinds of things that kids remember, too. You know,
11 rather than just the book work and all that kind of
12 thing.
13 NEW SPEAKER: And they use high school students
14 as counselors for the fifth graders.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
16 MODERATOR: I see.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
18 MODERATOR: So you have that interaction you
19 were talking about earlier.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm. It's wonderful.
21 Wonderful experience for both.
22 MODERATOR: I've been hearing along the lines,
23 as we've been going along, a lot about local
24 environmental issues. Is that the majority of your
25 environmental education in the classroom, or are there
26 regional, national, global issues that you discuss or
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1 investigate in your studies.
2 NEW SPEAKER: My kids at the elementary school
3 level know about things like the rainforest. And then
4 we take it from there, where they have and interest. Or
5 they'll hear about something that's happened in another
6 part of the world, and we take that problem and try to
7 localize it and say—now we have issues here that we can
8 deal with too. Just because they're not as publicized
9 or it might not be as glamorous. Like, not the
10 dolphins. And, you know, all my kids jumped on that.
11 About destruction of rainforests. They jumped on that
12 because it just became popular. But you take something
13 like that, and yes, you can work that out as a global
14 issue, but then you can bring it down to their level,
15 and you can bring it down just, you know, to community,
16 our neighborhood, we have certain issues. And there's
17 certain issues within every household that you—that can
18 impact the environment. And I think they gain the
19 appreciation by doing that also. So it's
20 internationally, nationally, and locally.
21 NEW SPEAKER: I'm finding, too, that it seems
22 like kids now are much more environmentally aware than
23 when I was growing up. You mentioned rainforests. Of
24 course these kids are growing up learning to recycle
25 newspapers, recycle cans, recycle glass. We used to
26 just throw that stuff away. I remember in one of these
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1 science magazines—I don't have the one here—but the
2 other year, it was either the Current Science or Science
3 World like I brought here, the recent ones, an article
4 on Pfiesteria, when that was really hitting bit last
5 year. And it mentioned Maryland and Virginia and these
6 local kinds of areas, which—and I made sure I had the
7 kids do that article because I said—hey, here's your
8 own state, and this in a national magazine that kids all
9 across the country are reading about. So I try to bring
10 in the local things. And the kids, many times, will
11 bring in newspaper articles, for extra credit or just to
12 bring in, of an issue like that. But I find that these
13 kids are much more in touch with the environment than I
14 ever was. And I think that's good. I really do. So
15 the more information we can give them, you know, as they
16 become older citizens and voters and everything is going
17 to help everybody, I guess.
18 MODERATOR: I was going to ask, does anyone
19 have a different approach in terms of the different, uh,
20 national, international, local—
21 NEW SPEAKER: Our group of kids, urn, we have
22 quite a few farming families in our school district, and
23 they bring a real interesting flavor to environmental
24 science class because in the text books, you know,
25 you're always nailing the farmers. And they're able to
26 bring their perspective to the national issues and help
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1 the kids in the class see a really well-rounded picture,
2 because a lot of text books have their own bias. And
3 one of the driving forces, I think, behind teaching
4 environmental science well is being able to present the
5 whole picture, you know, not just the bias that, a lot
6 of times what you see in the media is the bias—what's
7 going to get, well, the viewers, what's going to catch
8 everybody's attention, without presenting all the
9 different sides of the story. I think that makes it
10 fun. I had one real verbal farm girl that used to get
11 so angry when we'd start talking about it, and it's what
12 educated me—starting to listen to her point of view and
13 coming around to a different perspective on it. So it's
14 not always as clear-cut as it looks in the text books.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, I think that's really
16 important, that there's a balance presented there. I
17 always caution my—we use a lot of CBF trips in that
18 class, and I caution my seventh grade teachers to not
19 teach environmental science from the CBF point of view,
20 because they're very biased.
21 MODERATOR: What is CBF?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Chesapeake Bay Foundation.
23 They're very biased. I mean, if it's not green and in
24 the stream, then it's bad. And we really have to work
25 to counter-act that and present the, you know, all the
26 points of view. And that, again, come back to the data
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1 that's available and accessible, so much environmental
2 data is biased. It doesn't present everybody else's
3 point of view. There are a lot of points of view.
4 NEW SPEAKER: I've had the opportunity to go on
5 a couple of Chesapeake Bay Foundation teacher trips,
6 staying at Port Isabel in the Chesapeake Bay right next
7 to Tangier Island. And the first year I went, the
8 Chesapeake Bay Foundation ran all the activities that we
9 did. We stayed on the site. The second year that I
10 went, they provided us with an opportunity to go out
11 with a waterman from Tangier Island to give us a
12 different perspective. And it really was kind of an
13 eye-opener, in the waterman, besides having to get up at
14 3:30 or whatever time they go out on the water—it's
15 probably the first time I've seen the sunrise in a
16 number of years—the waterman said that the reason that
17 he takes the teachers out is to give them a different
18 perspective so that they don't hear only the CBF
19 information. And it was very, very interesting. I
20 think a lot of the watermen feel that their expertise
21 gained is discounted and not taken seriously by a lot of
22 environmental groups. Big sign as you're coming into
23 Tangier—Get Rid of Save the Bay.
24 MODERATOR: Oh really?
25 NEW SPEAKER: Wow.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Big, big sign. So we, you know—
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1 MODERATOR: Are there any balance issues that
2 do come up when you talk about partnering with an
3 organization, an environmental organization like
4 Chesapeake Bay Foundation or other organizations,
5 environmental organizations, in terms of balance? Does
6 that come up, ever? Does that seem, basically, as an
7 opportunity when they come forward and they provide some
8 of those structure items?
9 NEW SPEAKER: Well, I think we~yeah, we take
10 advantage of what they have to offer. I mean, the
11 ability to get out onto the bay and partake in a lot of
12 the programs that they have are not accessible anywhere
13 else. But, you know, we need to make sure that as we
14 use those things as opportunities and those facilities
15 and those resources, that we also owe it to the kids to
16 show them that there is another side to these issues
17 too.
18 MODERATOR: What if that partner was a
19 business?
20 NEW SPEAKER: Just as long as there was no
21 strings attached. [Laughter] I mean, cause sometimes
22 there is strings attached, and there may be a hidden
23 agenda that you just need to be aware of. And if that's
24 not the case then— you know, as educators I'm sure I'll
25 speak for everyone—if there's money out there and it
26 can help us—
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Hey. Send it our way.
2 [Laughter]
3 NEW SPEAKER:—with part of our programs, it's
4 not like we're going to say no to it.
5 NEW SPEAKER: And I know we hear when we go to
6 these conferences that, you know, businesses and
7 foundations get disappointed because the people aren't
8 applying for their grants. And, you know, I think—
9 speaking for myself, I'm not a big grant writer—but I
10 think it's a gift to be able to write a grant. It's
11 also, once again, time consuming. So if that part is
12 eliminated, and moneys are then coming in, I think that
13 would be very much appreciated.
14 MODERATOR: Eliminating the grant writing?
15 NEW SPEAKER: Because a lot of them take—well,
16 it's just a lot of [inaudible].
17 NEW SPEAKER: And then you put so much time in
18 and you don't get it. So then you learn to shoot for
19 the small ones. And if you get the small ones, then
20 maybe someday you get the big ones.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Well, like with DNR, when you do
22 them, there's so much work after that.
23 MODERATOR: Really?
24 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. I know, I can understand
25 it, because they want to make sure their money is being
26 spent the way they said it—the way you said it was
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1 going to be spent, but it's a tremendous amount of work
2 that goes into just meeting all the requirements that,
3 you know, a lot of teachers don't have. So they just
4 don't do it.
5 NEW SPEAKER: This year's been my first
6 experience with grant writing, and it has been very,
7 very time consuming. I did one to Chesapeake Bay Trust
8 and one to the Maryland Department of Natural Resources.
9 My problem with the DNR is that they pay—they don't pay
10 it all up front. You get paid 50 percent, 25 after it's
11 underway, and then 25 at the end. And apparently that's
12 even a change from the way it's been in the past. And
13 my particular item was one single big ticket item, and,
14 you know, that bill is due now. And I can't, you know,
15 I tried calling Carolina Biological several times—can
16 I pay 50, 25, 25 percent—and they don't answer. So
17 they don't have any money yet.
18 NEW SPEAKER: What was your big ticket item?
19 NEW SPEAKER: I purchased the river tank
20 ecosystem, and it's in our library for all of our
21 students to enjoy. And it really is—it makes a big
22 impact, and I probably—I'm sure I've driven the media
23 specialist insane because the kids are really taken by
24 it, because it's still very new, searching for all of
25 critters that are in it.
26 NEW SPEAKER: How large is it?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I bought a forty-five gallon.
2 It's two feet tall and three feet wide and a foot deep.
3 With plants and animals. Fish, amphibians, and
4 reptiles. Right now I don't have any reptiles, but I'm
5 going to add. I wanted to let it kind of come to a
6 balance and then see what I could add to it. But so far
7 it's been doing well. It really is. It's gorgeous.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Is it, like, if you order from
9 Carolina, it's—and that's everything you need you get
10 with it, right? Well, except for maybe some live things
11 that you—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Urn, yes. I order everything from
13 them. The aquarium comes with a special insert that
14 creates the running water and the pump for that, and
15 then the accessory kit and the light and the cover for
16 the top, and then there's a plant set and an animal set.
17 Had I known what I was going to get, I would not have
18 bought the plants and animals from them. I would have—
19 not—now that I saw it, the fish that I got are fish I
20 could have gone to Pet Smart and bought for a dollar a
21 piece, because I know what they are.
22 NEW SPEAKER: When you do your next one you'll
23 know, right?
24 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. So everything that I put
25 in now is going to—I'm going to purchase on my own.
26 But I wasn't sure. And I also wasn't real happy with
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1 the amount of direction that came, because there was
2 three very definite areas for the plants, for underwater
3 plants. And then one receives a lot of water, one a
4 smaller amount in the top—really gets just the
5 condensation that drips back down—and there was no
6 direction for me to know which plants to plant where.
7 Nothing was identified either, so that also bothered me
8 because I wanted signs up with all the plants and
9 animals labeled, and none of those—I didn't get enough
10 of that kind of information from them.
11 MODERATOR: Well, I'd like to move back to
12 information and data, and focus on the EPA specifically
13 and your interactions with the EPA data sources. And I
14 was wondering what sort of EPA information or data have
15 you used? Has it been Web pages, hotlines,
16 publications, databases? General, specific, local?
17 NEW SPEAKER: The emissions testing stuff.
18 MODERATOR: I'm sorry. Could you speak up?
19 NEW SPEAKER: The emissions testing packets of
20 information.
21 MODERATOR: For automobiles?
22 NEW SPEAKER: Urn-hm.
23 MODERATOR: Okay.
24 NEW SPEAKER: That's what I've used.
25 [Laughter] I know that I, urn, that we went to one of
26 the emissions testing places and they gave us a whole
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1 stack of them. And we do, like a, directed readings
2 with them so the kids can dig the information out of
3 them. That's what I've used.
4 MODERATOR: Mark?
5 NEW SPEAKER: I've used—there's a publication
6 from EPA, and I don't know the number and year, but it
7 was on risk and risk assessment. And it covered the
8 whole topic of risk and risk assessment, which I used in
9 the classroom as a reading source. So that was very
10 helpful, but I haven't had time to search for what else
11 is out there, unfortunately. I think that's the big
12 problem is the time. I mean, I think we would all love
13 to get on the Internet, but when do you find time to do
14 that and grade papers and develop lesson plans, develop
15 experiments that are not out there because there was
16 only a little bit. I mean, my biggest problem is
17 finding hands-on experiments that work. They're either
18 at the very high end of college level or at the very
19 elementary level, and for the high school kids there's
20 got to be a balance there, or you have to re-write the
21 whole thing yourself. Or you got to go to the workshops
22 that are sponsored by, either teachers' associations
23 that somebody shares a lab and says this really works—
24 and, to me, that's very beneficial—or somebody in the
25 county says this works really well on this topic. But
26 it's hard to find good laboratory experiments, I think.
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1 NEW SPEAKER. And if it has on it every thing
2 you need to know to be able to do it too. Sometimes
3 you'll get a lab—
4 NEW SPEAKER: Right. A lot of things, you'll
5 just get the lab but not the directions on how to make
6 the materials or what you need or what the pitfalls are,
7 unfortunately. [Agreement]
8 MODERATOR: Okay. So you're finding—you are
9 finding information sometimes, but it seems incomplete.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yes.
11 MODERATOR: It's not detailed enough. Okay.
12 NEW SPEAKER: I pulled the something on the
13 water—I pulled something on the Water Quality Act off
14 the Internet, but I don't know what the source was, to
15 tell you the truth. But it was very readable
16 [inaudible].
17 MODERATOR: Okay. Anyone else use EPA
18 information?
19 NEW SPEAKER: I've used a brochure, but I am
20 clueless on which one and numbers and—but I remember
21 the little thing at the bottom with an acronym.
22 NEW SPEAKER: EPA. [Laughter]
23 NEW SPEAKER: Probably shouldn't have been
24 copyrighted. [Laughter]
25 NEW SPEAKER: Most of my resources that I've
26 used in the past that came from EPA were hard copy
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1 pamphlets, brochures, some distributed through NASA or
2 NOAA. I've been—I've done a lot of work with NASA the
3 last few years.
4 MODERATOR: I'm sorry. NASA or—?
5 NEW SPEAKER: NASA or NOAA.
6 MODERATOR: Oh, NOAA. Okay.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Urn, I haven't pursued,
8 individually, myself, EPA on the Web. Uh—
9 MODERATOR: Richard?
10 NEW SPEAKER: We've used some of the pamphlets,
11 again, but I'm clueless as to titles and all that kind
12 of stuff. We have, you know, with the project thing
13 that I'd mentioned earlier, we have pursued Web sites
14 looking for very specific information. We had some kids
15 looking at water quality around the Laytonsville land
16 fill, and we spent hours chasing dead end leads. You
17 know, hither fithering on around that thing, and never
18 did get anything. You know, we've looked at water
19 guality studies in and around the Chesapeake Bay and
20 Potomac River and it is—we just run around in circles.
21 You know, you start chasing a lead down someplace and it
22 winds up at a dead end that looked like it was heading
23 somewhere, and it's been very frustrating. I complained
24 earlier that the EPA Web sites are very disorganized—my
25 impression is that they're very disorganized. And you
26 just—it's really hard to track anything down unless you
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1 want just, you know, if you want a statement of the
2 water quality legislation or whatever, that stuff is
3 fairly available, but if you're really after what's
4 happening in the Potomac River—
5 NEW SPEAKER: Or, historically, what has
6 happened.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Or historically—
8 NEW SPEAKER: I would love to see some
9 historical data on the Potomac River. I know it's there
10 somewhere.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. It's got to be. And you
12 stumble into it in odd places, but not in the EPA site.
13 The EPA seems to be much more focussed on legislation
14 and getting that information out, or looking at programs
15 and descriptions of programs, and not what they're
16 finding out within the programs. If you want to know
17 what any program at EPA is up to, you can find it, but
18 you don't know what they're finding. They're not
19 telling you what they're getting. Maybe it's a secret.
20 [Laughter] I don't know—I don't know what the logic
21 is. Whether it's, you know, they think it's too
22 sophisticated for people to really want to see, and so
23 they quit when it gets to that level of the data to
24 support what they're talking about, or whether the data
25 is so complex that it is unintelligible except to very,
26 you know, people that are really involved with what's
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1 going on with it. I don't know what the situation is,
2 but the data is not—they're not presenting it to us in
3 any useable fashion.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Okay. I mentioned the poster
5 before, which I'm going to be using, and then articles
6 that come out, like this one right here does mention
7 U.S. Department of Agriculture—organo-chlorines and
8 these Formosan termites that are in the country now in
9 the southern part. So anything like that that kids can
10 see in a very attractive way—a graph, a map, nice
11 colors. Not, you know, not real sophisticated. Like I
12 said, not too high level for them to read. Something
13 which is understandable. Those kinds of things are good
14 for kids.
15 NEW SPEAKER: But I'd like to see some of the
16 numbers that go with them.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Yes. Definitely. I don't any
18 numbers in this particular article for example, you
19 know.
20 NEW SPEAKER: And that's what I keep hammering
21 away at the kids with. You know, give me numbers.
22 Don't give me summaries of information. I want to see—
23 NEW SPEAKER: You know, what's this, you know—
24 NEW SPEAKER: —how many termites does that
25 stuff kill.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Right. Where's the—right, yeah.
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1 Where's the harmful level, for example.
2 NEW SPEAKER: And what else is going down with
3 it. And I'd like to see those numbers, and I don't find
4 it.
5 NEW SPEAKER: Articles like that are very
6 useful, though, to kind of bring some of the topics more
7 close to the students, so that whenever you are talking
8 about something that might going on, you know, halfway
9 around the world, that the potential is always there for
10 it to be affecting them. One of the things—talking
11 about the rainforest—even though that may be happening
12 far away, that there's still some causatory issues that
13 are happening here that affect that. It's always kind
14 of interesting sometimes to talk about things like,
15 maybe like Lyme Disease, that—and talk about it just
16 from the perspective of—oh, well here's where it
17 started out, and talk about one area specifically for
18 the whole, the first part of the lecture or whatever
19 that you're doing—for the first part of the information
20 or the background information. And then when everyone's
21 like—well, what does that have to do with us? Oh, by
22 the way, there's some cases up in—you know, just up the
23 road now. And it kind of really brings it home to them
24 when it's presented that way. Because that, with the
25 termites, that it, from the perspective of—okay, here's
26 a problem that they're having down in South America and
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1 this is something that's really—it might be a problem
2 down the line. Oh, well, by the way, here's this
3 article that just came out the other day. Now it is a
4 problem in the United States. So this is probably going
5 to be a—if you'd look at the data that they had in
6 South America, and now it's moving up into the Southern
7 United States, now you make some predictions. What do
8 you think's going to happen now? And maybe try to even
9 plan for it. Make their own predictions on what's going
10 to happen whenever it does come home. And then, it just
11 makes it easier to transition on other things that are
12 happening far away that they might not be very
13 interested in, but—okay, so now what happens when it
14 moves into this area? What happens when it moves into
15 another area? And then it gets a little bit closer to
16 you.
17 NEW SPEAKER: The killer bees—
18 NEW SPEAKER: Exactly. [Agreement]
19 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. His point is very good.
20 Right. When the kids can see a relationship to them and
21 to where they're living and the possibility that these
22 things are going to be impacting them, then it makes a
23 lot more sense to them. And with Internet and computers
24 and just everything else that goes on now, the world is
25 shrinking, I guess is a good way to say it. You know,
26 things that happen halfway around the world are now
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1 almost as close as their back door.
2 MODERATOR: Now I've heard you talk about
3 killer bees, dolphins, watershed—
4 NEW SPEAKER: Pfiesteria, termites.
5 MODERATOR: You were just talking about
6 termites, I think.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Termites.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Termites, Lyme Disease—
9 MODERATOR: Lyme Disease, you were talking
10 about. What are the popular topics?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Animals.
12 MODERATOR: What are the topics you want more
13 information on?
14 NEW SPEAKER: We're pretty blitzed with
15 Chesapeake Bay stuff in this area. We get a lot on
16 that.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I would like to see more on
18 population growth and impact on the environment about
19 population growth. Getting current numbers on
20 population and how they're changing in our local area is
21 real hard to do. We have the year 2000 Census coming
22 up, which I think would be an incredible opportunity if
23 we could get some of our environmental science kids
24 involved in actually doing that, or having people from
25 the Census Bureau come out and talking to them about how
26 it's done, how it impacts them, how planning is done
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1 around population numbers, how funding through
2 government is done around population and why it's
3 important. But I can't get any information. So I think
4 that's a real key issue, especially in our area. Our
5 population is going to go—
6 NEW SPEAKER: You mentioned Clarksburg.
7 MODERATOR: What other topics?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Whatever happens to be in the
9 news at the time. You know, a lot of things crop up and
10 you say—where the heck did that come from? It's just,
11 you know, some reporter jacks something out of all-out
12 proportion.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Naw. [Laughter]
14 NEW SPEAKER: I think population is a critical
15 issue, associated with, you know, food production world-
16 wide. There's so many issues environmentally just
17 around population.
18 NEW SPEAKER: I think that's a driving force
19 behind everything else we're seeing.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Fresh water. [Agreement]
21 NEW SPEAKER: Not only the data, but maybe the
22 activities to use with the data or something of that
23 sort. [Agreement]
24 NEW SPEAKER: Right. Rather than to design our
2 5 own.
26 NEW SPEAKER: There's a Web site that is very
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1 teacher-friendly. Nice readable language. Access
2 Excellence. And you just—you can go to—you can go to
3 some guick clips of articles that are current, you can
4 go to teacher activities, you can go anywhere, and you
5 know you're going to find it. You know you're going to
6 be able to read it. You know, you know, it's wonderful.
7 And it's generated by teachers for teachers, except for
8 the site, I think, that keeps current with the news.
9 And a lot of times the articles that you finally print
10 out, which may have originated from a journal, are, you
11 know, any "Joe Schmoe' can read. You can pass that on
12 to your kids. So I think, not just the information, but
13 if there was some knowledgeable, educational kind of
14 person that could make a nice little key activity, sort
15 of, because we'll take your information for populations
16 and then, now what? Now you got to come up with an
17 activity on how to use it.
18 NEW SPEAKER: We can plot them into histograms,
19 but it's about as creative as the kids. [Laughter]
20 MODERATOR: Do you have that Web address?
21 NEW SPEAKER: No, I don't think.
22 MODERATOR: Was that Access or Axis.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Access. Access Excellence.
24 NEW SPEAKER: Done through Gen or Gene—
25 NEW SPEAKER: Genentech.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Genentech.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. You just type in Access
2 Excellence.
3 MODERATOR: Access Excellence?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Access, yeah. Two Cs, two Ss.
5 Excellence.
6 MODERATOR: Don't have any idea how to spell.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Two words. Leave a space in
8 between. Just run it like that.
9 NEW SPEAKER: I think if you just put it under,
10 like, your little search under Yahoo or Alta Vista, it
11 will kick up. But it is incredible. I am severely
12 addicted to it. And it will run the gamut of
13 environmental. It will give you populations and things
14 like that. Some of those are things you're, like, so
15 excited you find them, and did I already do that, I
16 could of [inaudible]. [Laughter] But someone took the
17 time and put it in and did it that way. So I think, not
18 only the information, but just creative ways to use the
19 information would be nice.
20 NEW SPEAKER: There's a site, and I can't
21 remember the name of it. It comes in under Montgomery
22 County's Web page. It comes in under Web Connect, but
23 there's another layer down that lists educational sites.
24 And educators have reviewed the sites. They give them
25 a one, two, three, four apple review. And that's
26 really—they have really excellent sites there, but I
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1 can't remember the name specifically. But you can go to
2 the—get in the Montgomery County Web page and go down
3 to the bottom where it says Web Connect, and then
4 there's another layer in where it comes out, and I can't
5 remember the name of it. But it's a—I mean, it's got
6 really good teacher resources—Web sites that are useful
7 for teachers. Educators have reviewed the sites. I
8 mean, it may be a NOAA site, or it may be, you know,
9 somebody else, but somebody has looked at it and said
10 this is good data and they've got useful information
11 that's readable and they'll give you a little review on
12 it. And they've been very—real on target. But I can't
13 think of the name.
14 [ TAPE FLIP ]
15 NEW SPEAKER: But as far as a need, I think
16 we'd be grateful—at the high school level we're always
17 talking about models, in terms of predicting. I think
18 if instruction could be provided or assistance in how
19 some of these models develop, so that the students could
20 take some data and develop a predictive model of a given
21 situation or whatever, I think that would—I'd love it,
22 as far as a project with my classes. They just—
23 students need to know how to crunch data and make some
24 predictable sense out of it, I think, and modeling is
25 something they hear about. I use that phrase all the
26 time, as far as, you know, greenhouse modeling,
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1 whatever. And the fact they've got—there are two big
2 scenarios now, as far as one scenario says it's going to
3 get hotter and one says it's going get colder because
4 of—even from the same data. So how do you two
5 different models from the same data? I think providing
6 us help in how to develop that kind of process for the
7 students would be great.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Are any of you here involved with
9 the Maryland Virtual High School. Are you?
10 NEW SPEAKER: Mmm. Indirectly.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Because there's some computer
12 modeling in with that.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Okay, because Charlotte Trout in
15 our county is one of the lead people in that. But that
16 would be good, yeah. Some modeling in the environmental
17 area. I don't think they have any on those. Well, they
18 might. There's one on deer populations. There's one on
19 diffusion. Enzymes, I think. I'm not sure about
20 anything real environmental, though, with maybe
21 chemicals impacting a stream or impacting organisms.
22 MODERATOR: I'd like—Mark, did you have—?
23 NEW SPEAKER: No, I don't.
24 MODERATOR: I'd like to take one minute. We're
25 going to shorten the break. The break was supposed to
26 be over by now, but you guys were so interesting I
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1 didn't want to stop you. Ah, let's take a couple of
2 minutes. Grab a soda. Grab a cookie. We have
3 bathrooms just out the door to the right. And, really,
4 just a couple of minutes, and we'll start back up and
5 finish up. We've got about 20 minutes, half an hour to
6 go. Okay?
7 [ BREAK ]
8 MODERATOR: Alright guys. We don't have too
9 much time left, and I'd like to respect the time
10 limitations that we promised you from the beginning, so
11 I'd like to move forward. And I'd like to start by
12 reading you a little something about the EPA.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Uh oh. [Laughter]
14 MODERATOR: Get to the rubber's hitting the
15 road.
16 NEW SPEAKER: A little something.
17 MODERATOR: A little something. Just a few
18 sentences. The EPA administers 31 major environmental
19 databases, 123, what they call, major Web sites, Web
20 pages, and over 50 hotlines. They maintain libraries
21 and public information centers in each of its
22 headquarters and regional offices, and administer
23 several major public distribution centers and other
24 assistance centers. Are you familiar with—? What are
25 you familiar with? What have you used? Can you give me
26 comments on that?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: I'd have to say none of the
2 above. [Laughter]
3 MODERATOR: Okay.
4 NEW SPEAKER: It's nice that I'm finding this
5 out now, but I don't how I'd get to them.
6 MODERATOR: How can we—how can EPA make you—
7 because I feel like I'm getting a general consensus.
8 Not a lot of awareness.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Send us—
10 MODERATOR: Is that a fair statement?
11 NEW SPEAKER: —a printout. Yeah, a printout
12 of what the databases are, what the Web sites are,
13 hotline numbers, what their area of expertise is. Like,
14 all together in several sheets or little—
15 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, not on white paper.
16 NEW SPEAKER: No. Not white paper. It will
17 get lost. [Laughter]
18 NEW SPEAKER: Nice colored paper.
19 MODERATOR: So colored paper. Colored paper.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Or a booklet. Booklet, maybe, or
21 something like that.
22 NEW SPEAKER: Free candy or a chocolate bar in
23 there. [Laughter]
24 MODERATOR: I'll remember that part.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Somebody just did that.
26 NEW SPEAKER: I think a go-between would be
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1 nice. I mean, once you go—I mean, after this meeting,
2 I mean, we're going to remember bits and pieces. And
3 how do we get a hold of these publications. I mean, it
4 would be nice to have somebody with each county
5 coordinate either with the science director or with the
6 environmental teachers or whoever, that we could meet
7 maybe once a year, twice a year, whatever.
8 NEW SPEAKER: That would be nice.
9 MODERATOR: An ombudsman or a liaison of some
10 sort.
11 NEW SPEAKER: To make a connection so if we
12 have questions we can go to that individual instead of
13 saying—where was that information that I wrote down on
14 a piece of paper March 18th.
15 MODERATOR: You want to find that person.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Right. I mean it's so hard. We
17 get bombarded with papers, like here's a source, here's
18 a source, here's a source.
19 NEW SPEAKER: And it's like, who was that? You
20 know?
21 NEW SPEAKER: I've gotten the names all written
22 down, people. [Laughter]
23 NEW SPEAKER: That would be nice of you to have
24 a phone number.
25 MODERATOR: So if you hear from Rose, remember
26 her name.
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1 NEW SPEAKER: That would be nice to have a
2 phone number or somebody that we could talk to or come
3 to our county and say—this is what the new things are
4 that we have at EPA this year that we didn't have last
5 year. Or if we're stuck at Web sites, where can we go
6 from there?
7 NEW SPEAKER: Science supervisor. I'm sure our
8 supervisor, Sandy Graph, would be very willing.
9 Everything else she's got to do—hiring some new science
10 teachers because of retirements and unexpected changes
11 and things like that. But anyway, you know, I would
12 volunteer her name for Washington County. Sandy Graph.
13 I'll even give you her phone number. I'll give you her
14 phone number. [Laughter]
15 MODERATOR: Not on the tape. [Laughter]
16 NEW SPEAKER: How difficult would it be—
17 MODERATOR: Don't worry about difficult. Tell
18 me what you would like. Yeah.
19 NEW SPEAKER: To establish a listserve that
20 which—that would be people with expertise in various
21 areas of responsibility at the EPA that we could have
22 access to and communicate through a listserve, as far as
23 questions being answered and whatever. I'm on a
24 listserve for AP biology, and it's just amazing the
25 stuff I can pick up, as far as information, reading
26 peoples' comments and responses to each other. And that
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1 I—that's where most of my resources come from as far as
2 updating myself or getting questions answered about a
3 procedure in the lab or whatever. But I don't know if
4 something like that could be established, as far as a
5 regional listserve of experts being accessible by us for
6 questions, for just getting resources or whatever,
7 versus having to search. If the whole format is so
8 complicated to work with, that to lessen all that
9 searching, as far as getting more direct access to a
10 site of value or data of some value.
11 NEW SPEAKER: One of the "Ask a Scientist1
12 things?
13 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. I find kids use the "Ask
15 a Scientist' things and get really good—make good
16 contacts.
17 NEW SPEAKER: What's that? Is that on the Web
18 site?
19 NEW SPEAKER: That's—yeah. I mean, it's just
20 different agencies and organizations have them. Kids
21 stumble into the things as they're doing searches, and
22 I've had kids link up with diamond experts because they
23 were doing mineralogy studies, and I've had—I think
24 I've got one linked up right now with a volcanologist
25 out of Chicago—University of Chicago or something—just
26 leading a bunch of kids through some volcano studies.
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1 And, you know, but "Ask a Scientist1 or listserve or
2 some way of putting us in touch with the people that are
3 there.
4 NEW SPEAKER: They have—the engineers just,
5 they throw themselves at us, basically, and say, you
6 know, within a certain week we will come to your school,
7 we will lecture, kind of thing. So we—we've done that
8 for many years. So there's a window, the time where
9 they, you know, throw themselves—we'd love to come and,
10 you know, get out of our normal working situation and
11 come to the classroom and lecture and things like that.
12 So maybe that would help put us in tune too, and the
13 kids in tune, with what there is out there.
14 NEW SPEAKER: We had a career fair this year,
15 which was not just science. It was all the different
16 kids of careers. And the students signed up for, you
17 know, like, the top five choices and then they were
18 given three. Hopefully their top three. Most of the
19 kids did get them. One of the people was a marine
20 biologist, and I went to his session. Very interesting.
21 I mean, he brought the traps like they use, you know, in
22 the ocean and all kinds of equipment and everything.
23 And one thing he was mentioning was that if you're going
24 to be a marine biologist or something like that, you're
25 going to have to know the scientific names of all the
26 fish, which was interesting for me because I keep
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1 telling—because they all know a couple of these things,
2 you know, and all that. And so I made sure I told my
3 kids the next day that I was in the session, if they
4 weren't, and this is why we should know a few of these
5 things, at least. So if you could get some people, like
6 you said, in there, like as a speaker or maybe if your
7 school does a career fair. Now it's our first one for
8 quite a long time, but it was very helpful in a lot of
9 areas, not just science.
10 NEW SPEAKER: And if you have, like a
11 speaker's—
12 NEW SPEAKER: Speaker's Bureau or a speaker's,
13 urn—
14 NEW SPEAKER: People in the area that would be
15 willing to come out to the school so that we don't have
16 to just hunt them down.
17 NEW SPEAKER: That's right.
18 NEW SPEAKER: That's real hard to do.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Right.
20 NEW SPEAKER: And, uh, it's also takes a little
21 bit of cheek to call somebody up and say—would you
22 please come speak to my high school class. And you
23 don't know how you're going to be received because
24 they're busy.
25 NEW SPEAKER: Our county has a career
26 connections person at the Board of Education where we
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1 can call and ask her if she has certain people in an
2 area.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Do we have that?
4 NEW SPEAKER: I don't know. No.
5 NEW SPEAKER: What's her number?
6 NEW SPEAKER: I'll have her call you.
7 NEW SPEAKER: Whenever you call and try to set
8 something up with an organization, you don't always get
9 the best public speakers. I know that we did have an
10 engineer come to the middle school a couple of weeks
11 ago, and probably anybody that was interested in
12 engineering beforehand isn't anymore, because it was
13 very dry and he didn't really give a whole lot of
14 information. It was kind of hard for the kids to follow
15 us. And it wasn't really very exciting. He had a video
16 that went along with it that was okay, but I think that
17 if they had set people that they know that they're going
18 to be coming in and presenting this material, and
19 they're well versed in it and they know what types of
20 things that kids are looking for, they would be more
21 helpful to them.
22 NEW SPEAKER: I'll just plead ignorance to the
23 fact that I didn't realize—a lot of these Web sites you
24 made reference to, and you read all of those numbers and
25 statistics, are they sites that provide the kind data
26 that we need? Because I've always regarded EPA more in
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1 terms of regulation, and therefore didn't really pursue
2 EPA a lot as far as getting resources, tangible
3 resources, for doing some research at my school with my
4 students. I guess I need to—and I—why—I guess I'll
5 just ask, why has that not been made more available to
6 us, as far knowing all that's out there, versus
7 searching elsewhere?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
9 MODERATOR: And this is part of that effort.
10 This conversation right now. It really is.
11 NEW SPEAKER: If they could clearly describe
12 the—what did you say—31 databases?
13 MODERATOR: Let me look at my—31.
14 NEW SPEAKER: If somewhere, you know, up near
15 their home page or whatever could describe what those 31
16 databases are and make some of that data more clearly
17 available, I would like to see that.
18 NEW SPEAKER: Is there a home page that links
19 all that information that you gave us? The 31
20 databases, 200 and something Web sites, and all that.
21 Is there a home page that—?
22 MODERATOR: I have gal coming in when we're
23 done that you can ask that question. I'm not, I'm not
24 a—
25 NEW SPEAKER: There's an EPA home page, but it
26 doesn't link well to all of the pieces—all of the 158
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1 Web pages or whatever that you said they have.
2 MODERATOR: I believe it does have some sort of
3 search engine. I don't know how good that is. I'm not
4 an expert on the Web site. But I did have another
5 comment along these lines. Like you, a lot of people
6 have told us that they simply are not aware of the
7 information available from EPA, and someone suggested
8 literally advertising the information. Is there any
9 reaction to that? And, uh, sort of, what do you think
10 of that option and how could that be best employed for
11 you as environmental educators?
12 NEW SPEAKER: What do you mean advertising?
13 NEW SPEAKER: What do you mean by advertising?
14 NEW SPEAKER: Do mean like a—you mean a
15 booklet or something? Is that what you mean?
16 NEW SPEAKER: A mailing?
17 MODERATOR: On the front of Time magazine. Uh,
18 no.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Uh, yeah. There you go. EPA
20 speaks to educators and students.
21 MODERATOR: Do you want it more—over Super
22 Bowl Sunday. Urn, you probably have some venues that are
23 going to be more supportive as environmental educators.
24 NEW SPEAKERS: My mailbox is my best friend
25 when it comes to getting information. [Agreement].
26 MODERATOR: At work or at home?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: Well, both. Home, I'm more
2 likely to get it. Urn, but at work, because, if it's
3 going to be in a newspaper or magazine, during the
4 school year, I mean, my outside reading is really
5 limited, unfortunately, to like, front pages and the six
6 o'clock news. So something that comes directly to me,
7 I'm more likely to get and read and see and file
8 immediately in one place or the other.
9 MODERATOR: On colored paper.
10 NEW SPEAKER: On colored paper.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Yes. Very attractive-looking
12 colored paper.
13 NEW SPEAKER: That's no small issue. Really.
14 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. It's true.
15 MODERATOR: Okay.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Something that's brightly
17 significant and definitely I know when I see it—oh,
18 there it is.
19 MODERATOR: A nice hot pink.
20 NEW SPEAKER: [Inaudible] just sent a little
21 catalog and they put a big old chocolate bar in it.
22 Man.
23 NEW SPEAKER: She got that one! [Laughter]
24 NEW SPEAKER: You're waiting for yours, right?
25 NEW SPEAKER: But I mean, you know, they're
26 just—I mean, those are goofy things, but it just kind
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1 of makes you stop and say—oh, what is that?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. You might remember them
3 more than somebody else.
4 NEW SPEAKER: You know, because we do get so
5 much stuff. And it may even be going to, you know,
6 trying to find everybody who teaches certain subjects or
7 that topic that particular year, is to go to the
8 supervisors in the county and hit them. And then when
9 you talk about meeting, we have—we meet at least twice
10 a year, and to find that special meeting time, you have
11 a captive audience. We're there. We would love to walk
12 home with something.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm. I mean, we always meet in
14 August, like the Wednesday before the kids come in. We
15 have five days of in-service. And the supervisors day
16 is usually that Wednesday. So that would be a good time
17 because you're fresh from the summer or dragged out from
18 the summer or whatever and you're ready for some new
19 stuff. And being that we're getting toward the end of
20 the school year now, it probably isn't possible to get
21 anything together now.
22 MODERATOR: So accessing, physically accessing
23 your normal meeting structure that you have. Okay. Any
24 other suggestions for advertising EPA information?
25 NEW SPEAKER: I think the media specialist
26 would be ideal, because kids are going to want to get
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1 their hands on this information, probably, if they're
2 doing research projects. Where if we have it, they may
3 not know, or we may not be able to communicate all those
4 sites to those kids. So the media specialists are
5 experts at this. So at least a catalog or something
6 that, if they have a topic— rainforest—that they could
7 go right to the media specialist and she could pull off
8 your list of whatever.
9 MODERATOR: By media specialist, you mean
10 information resource person?
11 NEW SPEAKER: Librarian.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Librarian.
13 NEW SPEAKER: A.k.a. librarian. Right.
14 NEW SPEAKER: So at least there will be some
15 kind of—
16 MODERATOR: I have another question, and that
17 is somewhat related, but it's in terms of other types of
18 support in your environmental education efforts. Do
19 you—teaching associations, do have other associations,
20 professional linkages and networks that you're a part of
21 that specifically support, and especially if they're
22 good at it. You know, who are they? What organizations
23 are there out there that can be a part of that network?
24 NEW SPEAKER: Well, they aren't always
25 environmentally oriented, but MAST, the Maryland
26 Association of Science Teachers, provides grants to
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1 teachers who are either presenting workshops or for
2 doing some kind of project with their students.
3 MODERATOR: Did you say Maryland, or—?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
5 MODERATOR: Okay. Maryland Association.
6 NEW SPEAKER: There's the Maryland Association
7 of Environmental and Outdoor Educators.
8 NEW SPEAKER: I didn't even know there was.
9 NEW SPEAKER: I didn't either until this year,
10 and I am now a member.
11 NEW SPEAKER: Could you, urn, write it.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
13 NEW SPEAKER: Most of this stuff that I've
14 gotten—promotional things, that I've thought—oh wow.
15 This looks good. Maybe this. But they just want money.
16 A lot of the mailings I get from different
17 organizations, you know, they have their little tiny
18 magazine, but it is a really little tiny magazine. It's
19 just little snippets here and there. It's like the
20 header's Digest of the environmental world, but it's
21 real small. And they want my money on a yearly basis,
22 but they're not giving the information I need, and it's
23 not really a supportive type of organization like this
24 sounds like it might be. But I had never heard of it.
25 MODERATOR: Karen, is that a good organization?
26 Have you had a good experience?
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1 NEW SPEAKER: This was my first experience with
2 this. Um, the year conference was—this was the one I
3 went to in Ocean City in January. And really the only
4 reason I got it was because my media specialist cleaned
5 off her desk. It had gone to her. And I got it after
6 the due date, but I was able to fax in my registration.
7 And it was—it had a lot of really good information.
8 There were several classes that you could go to,
9 different seminars. It lasted all weekend. It started
10 Friday and went through, you know, Friday, all day
11 Saturday, and Sunday morning. It was really—it was
12 very good. It was really—as I said, this is really my
13 first year getting involved in this, so it was a good
14 opportunity for me to see what's out there.
15 MODERATOR: Any other—?
16 NEW SPEAKER: There's a Maryland Association of
17 Biology Teachers that has their Spring conference
18 Saturday, and they often have—like the one in the last
19 Spring was focussed more environmentally. They had
20 people come in with all the different accesses of
21 grants, and then they had some hands-on things, but
22 sometimes they vary it. They have a speaker, and then
23 they'll have workshops conducted by, maybe, experts, and
24 then maybe the experts are teachers doing their little
25 thing. And there occasionally—it doesn't always have
26 a complete environmental flair, but it's done where
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1 there's always something there.
2 NEW SPEAKER: They have a nice newsletter too.
3 [Agreement] The MAST conferences are superb. EPA could
4 get some people presenting at the MAST conferences.
5 That would be a good place to get to a lot of Maryland
6 teachers because they are real well-attended, real well-
7 received.
8 MODERATOR: Any other associations or
9 organizations?
10 NEW SPEAKER: Well, the Maryland Science
11 Supervisors Association also provides scholarships—oh,
12 not scholarships—grants as well now, which is financed
13 through NABT and MAST, as well as themselves. Again,
14 the process is not very difficult, and, you know, some
15 of us end up [inaudible] projects. But it is—those
16 particular grants are linked specifically with the
17 State's [inaudible] goals, which we all need to be well-
18 versed in as far as us coming down the road to the high
19 school assessments, but uh, that's just fine. It has a
20 real purpose, structure-wise. So, yeah, there are
21 grants out there. I know of a business, though, they
22 have a green coordinator that will—you can—and it's a
23 pretty easy task of getting a five hundred dollar grant
24 from through this particular business, just by even
25 writing them a letter. Yeah, there's—there are
26 resources out there.
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1 MODERATOR: Do you remember the name of that
2 business off hand?
3 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, I do, yeah. I wasn't sure if
4 I should say it or not, I mean, with the tape.
5 [Laughter]
6 MODERATOR: I think your colleagues might be
7 interested.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Walmart.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, they have a sign in their
10 store.
11 NEW SPEAKER: I was just thinking, they have a
12 commercial on TV. Something about green—
13 NEW SPEAKER: That's right. The green
14 coordinator.
15 MODERATOR: Anyone else? Well, EPA has another
16 item that comes up, and that is the layers within the
17 organization. I think, Richard, you sort of hit upon
18 that at one point. There's the Federal EPA, there's
19 Regional EPA, you have your state offices, you have
20 municipal environmental issues, you have the water
21 office, the air office, the toxic release office. You
22 have many, many layers and boxes that form the mosaic
23 that is the EPA. And—
24 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) I was sent from the
25 Maryland Teachers Association to rescue these people
26 because it's over time and—
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1 MODERATOR: They have six more minutes until—
2 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) Okay. Diane was concerned
3 in case some one was worn out.
4 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, we're just getting started.
5 [Laughter]
6 MODERATOR: We're rolling out a keg in about
7 five minutes in here. We'll really get candor then,
8 right? [Laughter] What has been your experience with
9 that? Has there been any?
10 NEW SPEAKER: I'm just curious. When you say—
11 how local are you talking about, as far as EPA?
12 MODERATOR: Well, the EPA itself may have,
13 like, a local office. But I was also—I was sort of
14 crossing the lines there.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Within the county?
16 MODERATOR: I was crossing lines there when I
17 was talking about your local municipality may have, you
18 know, water and sewer concerns and other things that are
19 going to be covered as far as environmental issues. So
20 you have a number of jurisdictions, and also within EPA
21 itself you have a number of offices to go to. How do
22 you move through that?
23 NEW SPEAKER: No. What is the most local
24 contact for us? I think that's what you're asking.
25 NEW SPEAKER: I don't know. That's what I'm
26 asking, yeah.
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1 MODERATOR: The most local EPA contact?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Right.
3 MODERATOR: I don't know. And that's something
4 you can ask Diane.
5 NEW SPEAKER: See, I haven't found them to be
6 that approachable. Like NASA has always had a, you
7 know, part of their program has been to reach out to
8 schools. And each NASA employee is obligated to put in
9 two days a year or something reaching out to schools and
10 education purposes. But I haven't seen that kind of
11 outreach from EPA. I think they're, you know, it just
12 seems like they're really tied up in their regulatory
13 stuff and have not been school-friendly. [Agreement]
14 NEW SPEAKER: My perception has always been
15 that they're fairly remote and not as easily accessible.
16 And who would you talk to anyway if you called? It's
17 like, how do you get to where you need to get to if you
18 need a specific person that's a specialist in a certain
19 area?
20 NEW SPEAKER: Back to the idea of whom do you
21 contact, and if you knew a name and a phone number.
22 NEW SPEAKER: That's right.
23 MODERATOR: Mark, did you have something you
24 wanted to add to that?
25 NEW SPEAKER: No.
26 MODERATOR: Okay. One quick exercise, and then
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1 I have a short item I want you to fill out. I'd like to
2 hear another brainstorm. Now that we've gone through
3 this whole process of talking about—what information
4 have I gotten, what information am I not getting, what
5 do I need, what do I want, what do ray students need and
6 want, what kinds of support would I like? I'd like you
7 to sort of brainstorm for just a couple of minutes here
8 that we have left and tell me, if you could grab the ear
9 of this person at the top of EPA, of the regional
10 ladder—so they're looking at just five states and the
11 District, here, of Columbia—what would you tell them?
12 What's your wish list? What should their priorities be
13 to reach you, especially in terms of environmental
14 information and so on, in order to be accessible?
15 NEW SPEAKER: I guess, accessibility.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
17 MODERATOR: Can you make that into an action
18 item, like what—?
19 NEW SPEAKER: They need to come to me.
20 [Laughter, agreement].
21 NEW SPEAKER: Tell me what you have to offer.
22 NEW SPEAKER: There you go.
23 MODERATOR: So, uh, tell me what you have to
24 offer. What form? How do they do that?
25 NEW SPEAKER: Did you mean like a phone call,
26 for example, that you're—a phone call versus a mailing
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1 versus a—?
2 MODERATOR: What's your priority? What's your
3 favorite?
4 NEW SPEAKER: I would say phone call. I mean—
5 MODERATOR: Phone call. Calling.
6 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah right. Well, okay, well—
7 NEW SPEAKER: I was thinking about E-mail.
8 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, I would like it by E-mail.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Well, okay E-mail, or a phone
10 call, or, okay, a letter. For example, I found about
11 this from the letter from Diane McCreary. We need a
12 letter form first, and then I call her back, and so on.
13 So, you know, if they want to do multiple kinds of
14 things, an E-mail plus the phone call plus the letter.
15 MODERATOR: I'm hearing maybe multiple routes.
16 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah.
17 NEW SPEAKER: Well, maybe even a yearly
18 regional workshop of sorts. Like here's what we're
19 doing now. Here's what we have for you. And, urn—
20 MODERATOR: What else? Pie in the sky, guys.
21 Come on.
22 NEW SPEAKER: The sky's the limit.
23 NEW SPEAKER: Money to go to—
24 NEW SPEAKER: Money. [Agreement]
25 MODERATOR: I was waiting for that. [Laughter]
2 6 Money.
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1 [ TAPE FLIP ]
2 MODERATOR: —grants easy for you. You
3 mentioned red tape.
4 NEW SPEAKER: They write them, and we sign
5 them. [Laughter]
6 MODERATOR: So, what I do hear that might come
7 out of that—a writer's workshop? A grant-writing
8 workshop? A grant-writing help center?
9 NEW SPEAKER: I think they could streamline the
10 process. [Agreement]
11 NEW SPEAKER: Streamline the process. There
12 you go.
13 NEW SPEAKER: With some grants, that all I had
14 to do was write a paragraph describing what I wanted to
15 do and how much money I needed, and I got the money—
16 NEW SPEAKER: Oh, that would be nice.
17 NEW SPEAKER: —instead of some of these things
18 where you got to write pages and pages of stuff that has
19 to be written exactly right.
20 MODERATOR: Less writing.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Less writing. Good.
22 NEW SPEAKER: And even less follow-up writing,
23 because I went through all of my grant writing now, and
24 I know that I have follow-up reports to do before I can
25 enjoy my summer.
26 MODERATOR: Anything else? Any Internet ideas
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1 or data topics?
2 NEW SPEAKER: Equipment.
3 MODERATOR: Equipment? Would you like to see
4 them help you at all with that topic you explored
5 earlier, when you were talking about making the labs,
6 especially at the high school level and at the middle
7 school level?
8 NEW SPEAKER: If they could come up with some
9 lab activities—
10 NEW SPEAKER: I'd be real careful about having
11 EPA people write my labs for me.
12 MODERATOR: You would not care for EPA to write
13 your labs.
14 NEW SPEAKER: I think you need to get teachers
15 involved in that. I mean, if they wanted to hire some
16 teachers on for a summer or a couple of weeks to write
17 some good lessons or something, I think that would be
18 useful, but I don't want EPA writing any lessons for me.
19 NEW SPEAKER: Speakers would be nice.
20 MODERATOR: Speakers. What was it? I heard a
21 [inaudible].
22 NEW SPEAKER: I was saying graduate credits.
23 I mean—
24 NEW SPEAKER: Well, there is a United States
25 grad school. [inaudible] grad school.
26 NEW SPEAKER: Right.
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1 MODERATOR: Okay.
2 NEW SPEAKER: What about like, mentoring? I
3 know there's mentoring programs. Go and work in a—EPA
4 lab. Like, take teachers—
5 NEW SPEAKER: Like an internship?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Internship. That's the word I
7 was looking for.
8 MODERATOR: Okay.
9 NEW SPEAKER: Or for kids.
10 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, for kids.
11 MODERATOR: Teachers and kids.
12 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
13 MODERATOR: Anything else come out?
14 NEW SPEAKER: I'd like to see a good, clear Web
15 page.
16 MODERATOR: Web page.
17 NEW SPEAKER: User-friendly.
18 NEW SPEAKER: User-friendly. Make their data
19 clear and available and accessible. Maybe there isn't
20 any data. Maybe I'm just wishing there was. [Laughter]
21 MODERATOR: Okay. Now let's take another
22 maybe—huh. I'm really running you guys over. I'm so
23 sorry. Another minute or two, and just, looking at this
24 list, what are the big ones? Maybe not one, but one,
25 two, three. Maybe even four.
26 NEW SPEAKER: The first one. Come to you,
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1 because—
2 MODERATOR: Come to us to tell us what you got.
3 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah. Whenever we come to you,
4 you get nine people from three counties.
5 MODERATOR: Does that get a big old one next to
6 it?
7 NEW SPEAKER: Um-hm.
8 MODERATOR: Look around. Something else?
9 NEW SPEAKER: Money. [Agreement]
10 MODERATOR: Money?
11 NEW SPEAKER: I think they could do more for us
12 than money, though. I mean, money is always nice, but,
13 I mean, I've done a lot of stuff with NOAA and USGS, and
14 just getting access to their scientists I find even more
15 important than the money.
16 MODERATOR: Access to experts.
17 NEW SPEAKER: I'd throw that in with the
18 internships and some of the training stuff there, I
19 think we had up there.
20 MODERATOR: So this one goes with this one.
21 NEW SPEAKER: Yeah, I'd—
22 MODERATOR: What did you say about workshops?
23 NEW SPEAKER: Where the yearly regional
24 workshop is part of the training.
25 MODERATOR: Um-hm. So sort of a whole—
26 NEW SPEAKER: Training component.
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1 MODERATOR: Maybe this even in there. Teacher
2 training and access? Can that be, like, a topic? An
3 over-arching topic?
4 NEW SPEAKER: Take some of the interns and let
5 them do a regional workshop.
6 MODERATOR: So I'd like to make this training
7 and access. This, to sort of cover graduate credit,
8 interns, yearly regional meeting—that probably goes
9 with this, come to you, access to experts. Better Web
10 site is probably go in there, and then money? Number
11 three. How's that? Does this seem to cover everything?
12 NEW SPEAKER: There was a suggestion about EPA
13 equipment that's discarded. That may be used, I mean—
14 MODERATOR: Equipment.
15 NEW SPEAKER: Oh yeah. That would be great.
16 NEW SPEAKER: I mean, Fort Detrick has pipets
17 that they throw away by the tons, and—
18 NEW SPEAKER: New ones, even, I think. Right?
19 NEW SPEAKER: Right. And if they're cleaning
20 out a lab at Fort Detrick, they call Frederick County.
21 If there's computers. I don't know what the policy is
22 for EPA, but things that are not used anymore that could
23 be used in the classroom for whatever reason.
24 NEW SPEAKER: That would great.
25 NEW SPEAKER: That could be great if the EPA
26 could actually coordinate that with area businesses and
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1 everything else.
2 MODERATOR: Could you say that once more really
3 loud so we make sure we have that.
4 NEW SPEAKER: If the EPA could coordinate that.
5 MODERATOR: Equipment?
6 NEW SPEAKER: Equipment—
7 MODERATOR: Discarded?
8 NEW SPEAKER: Well, yeah. It would be
9 recycling all the equipment, because there's a lot of
10 stuff that's thrown away by a lot of businesses that we
11 could use.
12 MODERATOR: Is this a bigger issue than either
13 one of these three that we've developed here? Money,
14 teacher training, and access to EPA, and then coming to
15 you?
16 NEW SPEAKER: Well that would reduce some of
17 the money demand.
18 MODERATOR: So this sort of locks in with the
19 money, and just sort of support.
20 NEW SPEAKER: Some of the equipment is so
21 technical that we probably—
22 MODERATOR: Okay. We've got about—uh—a sort
23 of interesting—this is where the quantitative part
24 comes in. This is something we give to all group
25 members. We had a group with small businesses, and so
26 on. It's to get a feel for the different stakeholder
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1 groups, what do you have, what are you priorities, and
2 to get it, you know, get you cornered and written down.
3 I didn't ask this. Is there anything anyone wanted to
4 mention that came to mind and they don't feel they had
5 a chance to say?
6 NEW SPEAKER: (EPA) I was trying to look
7 through the door to see if it was time yet or not.
8 MODERATOR: Not quite. Let's let them fill out
9 a little bit, and you can set up while they're filling
10 out.
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& S
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Frederick, MD, Environmental Educators Discussion Group-5 CIP and IA Coding
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What we try to do is to find an environmental, or not necessarily environmental, but all kinds of project ideas.
And the data gathering for it is Internet data. And so they go out and try to locate the resources. Environmental
data has been very difficult to get, anything other than very superficial stuff, you know, where they just kind of
explain, you know, what does it mean. But we're after, you know, what are the point sources of pollution, what
are the water quality studies that people have been doing, you know, kind of professional organizations and
stuff. And that's been difficult to lay our hands on, and that's what I'd like-I guess that's the main reason I was
here—to see if we could figure out some way of streamlining that process to get to the kind of data that we're
looking for.
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And, you know, finding resources is tough, and I think that it's frustrating for students. My students in my
science research class, the same way. We've been somewhat lucky as far as getting a lot of resources out of the
Maryland Sea Grant group as well as the Chesapeake Bay Trust, and DNR has been very helpful for us, but
resources are a problem.
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It's been my experience that, getting resources, you have to know someone within the different company or
organization, and that's your in-road to get the materials, resources that you need. But if you don't have that
contact person, then it just seems a little overwhelming, and that gathering things becomes difficult. My best
successes have been when I was introduced to someone or, you know, just through various contacts,
networking, I've met someone, and then just took it from there. But just going up and trying to find something
without having that in-road of knowing someone, collecting information resources was, you know, impossible.
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I think the time involved is a really crucial factor, because with environmental science you need up-to-date
information. You can't use stuff from ten years ago. You need stuff that's going on right now, you know, like
current events, and the time involved with trying to find that information can be staggering, especially when you
have a lot of other things you have to do. It's one of the hardest things.
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My concern with the environmental sites is that most of them seem to be very general and don't-you know, we
want to get the kids down to actually looking at dissolved oxygen rates in different parts of the Chesapeake Bay
and stuff like that, and that kind of data, environmental data, is hard to find. We have much better luck with
other fields. You know, weather, geology, earthquakes, volcanoes. I mean, we can get tons of data. But the
environmental data seems to be very superficial, and the EPA site is very confusing, and you just follow dead
leads that, you know, and just get lost within the site. It just drives us nuts looking for those very specific pieces
of data.
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Well, we tend to trust-maybe we shouldn't-the uh, you know, if it comes through with a government, you
know, one of the government agencies as being the sponsor of it, I'll put a little more validity to that than some
other person-group that we don't know who they are. So if it's a EPA site or it's a NOAA site or it's a USGS
site, you know, we'll consider that to be fairly valid data.
I do use the Internet, hoping that the data that's on there is the most current and up-to-date. Sometimes I'll be
reading through this information and I'll think, yeah, this is really-then I get to the end and it will say 1996.
And it's like, ugh. Some of the scientific journals have current information, but even that isn't as current as you
need it to be because there's such a downtime between submission and rewrites and actual publication that it
can be a year to two years old too, I tend to think. And the text books are always about four or five years
behind, so it's hard. I don't have an answer for it. I try to get the most current. I think it's a constant search. I
haven't found a good solution for it yet.
I'd like to find a means to share the data that we collect so that the students find it more meaningful, and it's not
just us playing in the stream and playing with this great new equipment that we just got this year, but, urn,
gathering that information that would be meaningful to someone else as scientific data.
there's been a lot of fun and games done with taking water sample tests and all that kind of stuff, but nothing— a
lot of really not meaningful stuff. But if you could put it under an umbrella like the Hood Program here, or
somebody else that really kind of could coordinate this into something where all the pieces fell together and
everybody was doing it, I think there could be some meaningful work being done.
My kids at the elementary school level know about things like the rainforest. And then we take it from there,
where they have and interest. Or they'll hear about something that's happened in another part of the world, and
we take that problem and try to localize it and say-now we have issues here that we can deal with too. Just
because they're not as publicized or it might not be as glamorous. Like, not the dolphins. And, you know, all
my kids jumped on that. About destruction of rainforests. They jumped on that because it just became popular.
But you take something like that, and yes, you can work that out as a global issue, but then you can bring it
down to their level, and you can bring it down just, you know, to community, our neighborhood, we have
certain issues.
I remember in one of these science magazines-I don't have the one here-but the other year, it was either the
Current Science or Science World like I brought here, the recent ones, an article on Pfiesteria, when that was
really hitting bit last year. And it mentioned Maryland and Virginia and these local kinds of areas, which—and I
made sure I had the kids do that article because I said— hey, here's your own state, and this in a national
magazine that kids all across the country are reading about. So I try to bring in the local things.
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R-HI 5 55 21 U i, gd O"1" group of kids, um, we have quite a few fanning families in our school district, and they bring a real
interesting flavor to environmental science class because in the text books, you know, you're always nailing the
farmers. And they're able to bring their perspective to the national issues and help the kids in the class see a
really well-rounded picture, because a lot of text books have their own bias. And one of the driving forces, I
think, behind teaching environmental science well is being able to present the whole picture, you know, not just
the bias that, a lot of times what you see in the media is the bias-what's going to get, well, the viewers, what's
going to catch everybody's attention, without presenting all the different sides of the story. I think that makes it
fun. I had one real verbal farm girl that used to get so angry when we'd start talking about it, and it's what
educated me-starting to listen to her point of view and coming around to a different perspective on it. So it's
not always as clear cut as it looks in the text books.
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Chesapeake Bay Foundation. They're very biased. I mean, if it's not green and in the stream, then it's bad.
And we really have to work to counter-act that and present the, you know, all the points of view. And that,
again, come back to the data that's available and accessible, so much environmental data is biased. It doesn't
present everybody else's point of view. There are a lot of points of view.
63 11 M U I think that's the big problem is the time. I mean, I think we would all love to get on the Internet, but when do
you find time to do that and grade papers and develop lesson plans, develop experiments that are not out there
because there was only a little bit. I mean, my biggest problem is finding hands-on experiments that work.
They're either at the very high end of college level or at the very elementary level, and for the high school kids
there's got to be a balance there, or you have to re-write the whole thing yourself.
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We have, you know, with the project thing that I'd mentioned earlier, we have pursued Web sites looking for
very specific information. We had some kids looking at water quality around the Laytonsville land fill, and we
spent hours chasing dead end leads. You know, hither fithering on around that thing, and never did get
anything. You know, we've looked at water quality studies in and around the Chesapeake Bay and Potomac
River and it is—we just run around in circles. You know, you start chasing a lead down someplace and it winds
up at a dead end that looked like it was heading somewhere, and it's been very frustrating. I complained earlier
that the EPA Web sites are very disorganized--my impression is that they're very disorganized. And you just--
it's really hard to track anything down unless you want just, you know, if you want a statement of the water
quality legislation or whatever, that stuff is fairly available, but if you're really after what's happening in the
Potomac River . . . you stumble into it in odd places, but not in the EPA site.
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The EPA seems to be much more focussed on legislation and getting that information out, or looking at
programs and descriptions of programs, and not what they're finding out within the programs. If you want to
know what any program at EPA is up to, you can find it, but you don't know what they're finding. They're not
telling you what they're getting. Maybe it's a secret. I don't know—I don't know what the logic is. Whether
it's, you know, they think it's too sophisticated for people to really want to see, and so they quit when it gets to
that level of the data to support what they're talking about, or whether the data is so complex that it is
unintelligible except to very, you know, people that are really involved with what's going on with it. I don't
know what the situation is, but the data is not—they're not presenting ittotisin any useable fashion.
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Articles like that are very useful, though, to kind of bring some of the topics more close to the students, so that
whenever you are talking about something that might going on, you know, halfway around the world, that the
potential is always there for it to be affecting them. One of the things-talking about the rainforest-even though
that may be happening far away, that there's still some causatory issues that are happening here that affect that.
It's always kind of interesting sometimes to talk about things like, maybe like Lyme Disease, that--and talk
about it just from the perspective of--oh, well here's where it started out, and talk about one area specifically for
the whole, the first part of the lecture or whatever that you're doing—for the first part of the information or the
background information. And then when everyone's like-well, what does that have to do with us? Oh, by the
way, there's some cases up in--you know, just up the road now. And it kind of really brings it home to them
when it's presented that way.
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I would like to see more on population growth and impact on the environment about population growth.
Getting current numbers on population and how they're changing in our local area is real hard to do. We have
the year 2000 Census corning up, which 1 think would be an incredible opportunity if we could get some of our
environmental science kick involved in actually doing that, or having people from the Census Bureau come out
and talking to them about how it's done, how it impacts them, how planning is done around population
numbers, how funding through government is done around population and why it's important. But I can't get
any information. So 1 think that's a real key issue, especially in our area.
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But as far as a need, I think we'd be grateful-at the high school level we're always talking about models, in
terms of predicting. I think if instruction could be provided or assistance in how some of these models develop,
so that the students could take some data and develop a predictive model of a given situation or whatever, I
think that would—I'd Jove it, as far as a project with my classes. They just—students need to know how to
crunch data and make some predictable sense out of it, I think, and modeling is something they hear about. I
use that phrase all the time, as far as, you know, greenhouse modeling, whatever. And the fact they've got-
there are two big scenarios now, as far as one scenario says it's going to get hotter and one says it's going get
colder because of-even from the same data. So how do you two different models from the same data? I think
providing us help in how to develop that kind of process for the students would be great.
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How difficult would it be ... to establish a listserve that which—that would be people with expertise in various
areas of responsibility at the EPA that we could have access to and communicate through a listserve, as far as
questions being answered and whatever. I'm on a listserve for AP biology, and it's just amazing the stuff I can
pick up, as far as information, reading peoples' comments and responses to each other. And that I—that's
where most of my resources come from as far as updating myself or getting questions answered about a
procedure in the lab or whatever. But I don't know if something like that could be established, as far as a
regional listserve of experts being accessible by us for questions, for just getting resources or whatever, versus
having to search. If the whole format is so complicated to work with, that to lessen all that searching, as far as
getting more direct access to a site of value or data of some value.
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