ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION  AGENCY






  PUBLIC HEARING  ON PROPOSED


      MACARIO OIL  REFINERY
    TRANSCRIPT OF  PROCEEDINGS


         AUGUST  23,  1975


      CARLSBAD,  CALIFORNIA
                          FlVECOAT, WITH and DUNN
                          CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
                         SUITE 816 CHARTER OIL BUILDING
                              11O WEST "C" STREET
                           SAN DIEOO CALIFORNIA 92101
                              PHONE 7M/239-4191

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 6   PANEL MEMBERS:

 7                 MATTHEW  S.  WALKER
                  HEARING  OFFICER
 8                 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

 9                 FRANK  M.  COVINGTON
                  DIRECTOR,  AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS  DIVISION
10                 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

11                 STAN SWICKER
                  ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER,  AIR PROGRAMS  BRANCH
12                 AIR AND  HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION
                  ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
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                          IN  D E X

EXHIBITS                                              PAGE
    1      FEDERAL REGISTER,  PART II, DATED            3
           5-14-75

    2      APPLICATION  FOR  AUTHORITY TO CONSTRUCT     <4
           PERMIT BY MACARIO

    3      LETTER FROM  MACARIO TO EPA AND              5
           ATTACHMENTS  RE APPLICATION

    k      EPA ASSESSMENT OF  PROPOSED MACARIO         5
           REFINERY

    5      AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION                    5

    6      AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION    .                5

    7      PRESS RELEASE  RE PUBLIC HEARING             5
           DATED 7-25-75

    8      LETTER FROM  FEA  TO EPA DATED 7-31-75       7

    9      LETTER FROM  PUC  TO EPA DATED 7-31-75       7

    10      PRESS RELEASE  RE PUBLIC HEARING             7
           DATED 7-25-75

    11      NEWSPAPER ARTICLES                          7

    12      EPA ANALYSIS OF  LOCAL AIR OUALITY           7

    13      PRESS RELEASE  RE PUBLIC HEARING            55
           DATED 8-20-75

    14      LEUCADIA TOWN  COUNCIL STATEMENT            55

    15      ALLAN 0. KELLY STATEMENT                   55

    16      DOCUMENT ENTITLED  "REDUCTIONS  IN           55
           EMISSIONS THROUGH  FUEL SWITCHING"

    17      CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE  LEGAL  STATEMENT  60

    18      CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE  RESEARCH          78

    19      CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE  RESOLUTION       81
          • STATEMENT

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EXHIBITS
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JOHN A. GRAY STATEMENT
LETTER FROM APCD TO SDG5E DATED 2-28-75
JOAN JACKSON STATEMENT
SIERRA CLUB STATEMENT
NATURAL GAS BAR GRAPH
SULPHUR-CONTENT CRUDE ANALYSIS
PROCESS SCHEME CHART
AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH OF PROPOSED SITE
MAP OF PROPOSED SITE
PRESS RELEASE RE MACARIO APPLICATION
DATED 5-7-75

LEAGUE OF WOMAN VOTERS STATEMENT

SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP
STATEMENT
POPPY DEMARCO STATEMENT
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "GERANIUMS VS.
SMOKESTACKS"

CAROL LAW STATEMENT

DOCUMENT ENTITLED "SIMULATION IN THE
SERVICE OF SOCIETY"
JEROME REHBERG (PACIFIC RESOURCES)
STATEMENT

GRAPHS

MRS. GEORGE BROWNLEY STATEMENT




PAGE
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SPEAKERS                                               PAGE
ACKERMAN,  TED                                           78




BEAN, BRUCE                                              24




BISHOP,  RICHARD           .                              69




BONCER,  LOIS                                           l92




BOUTVETTE,  DON                                         177




BROWNLEY,  MRS. GEORGE                                  162




COLE, WILLIAM                                          117




COVINGTON,  F. M.                                        10




DALCOFF,  LARRY                                         195




DAWSON,  CLARENCE                                       150




GRAY,  JOHN                                              95




GUNTO,  JOE                                             195




HASSAN,  JIM                                            158




HASSAN,  ROSE                                           1&9




JACKSON, GENE                                          163




JACKSON, GENE,  JR.                                     191




JACKSON, JOAN                                          104,  194




JACKSON, MEGAN                                         18&




JONES,  GEORGE                                            38




KAPLAN, WILLIAM                                         99




KIMURA, EDWARD                  .                        112




 LAFFOON, C.  M.                                           35




 LAW, CAROL                                              134,  144




 LOGSTON, DEE                                            64

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SPEAKERS
MACKETT, MARILYN
MC GILL, JOHN
MILLER, MICHAEL
NELSON, MARK
PRESCOTT, JOEL
PR I ITEM, LOU
RASH, L. W.
REHBERG, JEROME
RICE, JIM
RICHARDSON, R. R.
SCHULTZ, KEN
SLOAN, JEAN
SOMMERVILLE. RICHARD
TROMBLEY, CHARLES
VON HAD'EN, LLOYD
VON HADEN," THELMA
WALKER, MATTHEW
WANKET, DUANA
WILHELM, MARGARET
WOLFF, HAROLD
WCOLDRIDGE, OLIVE
WORD EN, DWIGHT
ZAMORA, VICKY

"!
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 1                                  SATURDAY  MORNING SESSION




 2                                  AUGUST  23,  1975, 9:30 A.M.





 3




 4                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  GOOD MORNING.  WE WOULD  LIKE




 5   TO  GET  THIS HEARING  STARTED.  MY NAME  IS MATTHEW  S.  WALKER,




 6   AND I HAVE BEEN  DESIGNATED HEARING OFFICER FOR REGION  9




 7   OF  THE  ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTECTION AGENCY,  AND  I WILL PRESIDE




 8   AT  THIS MEETING.




 9                WITH ME  ON THE DAIS TODAY  IS MR. FRANK M.




10   COVINGTON, DIRECTOR,  AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS  DIVISION,




11   REGION  9, AND MR.  STAN SWICKER, ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER,  AIR P




12   GRAMS BRANCH, AIR AND  HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION.




J3                I WOULD  LIKE TO SAY AT  THIS TIME WE  DO HAVE




14   REGISTRATION CARDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE  FROM THE YOUNG LADY




15   ON  MY  RIGHT.   IF YOU ARE GOING  TO  MAKE A PRESENTATION, WE




t6   WOULD REQUEST  THAT YOU DO REGISTER.    IF YOU  ARE  NOT  GOING




17   TO  MAKE A PRESENTATION, WE  ALSO REQUEST THAT YOU REGISTER




18   BECAUSE WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW AS  WELL AS POSSIBLE WHO IS




19   HERE.




20                THE PROCEEDINGS THIS  MORNING WILL  ROTATE AMONG




21   THE VARIOUS  INTEREST GROUPS  IN  THE ORDER  IN  WHICH THEY HAVE




22   REGISTERED AND AS NEAR AS  IT  IS POSSIBLE  FOR ME  TO SEGREGATE




23   THEM.   LATER ON WE WILL TAKE  A  SHORT  RECESS  FOR  THE  PURPOSES




24   OF THE COURT  REPORTER, AND  THERE  WILL BE  A QUEST 1ON-AND-




25   ANSWER SESSION OFF THE RECORD AFTER THE MID-MORNING RECESS.
0-

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 1   THEN WE  WILL GO BACK ON  THE  RECORD BECAUSE  WE  ARE MAKING A




 2   VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF THIS  HEARING.




 3                THE RECORD IS  BEING MADE BY MR.  JERE L. WITH OF




 4   THE FIRM OF FIVECOAT, WITH & DUNN.  A COPY  OF  THE TRANSCRIPT




 5   WILL BE  AVAILABLE IN THE OFFICES OF REGION  9 AT 100 CALIFORNIA




 6   STREET  IN DUE COURSE.  ANYONE WHO WISHES  A  COPY OF THE RECORD




 7   SHOULD  MAKE INDIVIDUAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH  THE COURT REPORTER.




 8                I WILL MAKE  A  STATEMENT OUTLINING  THE PURPOSE OF




 9   THIS HEARING AND GIVE SOME OF THE BACKGROUND AND INDICATE




10   WHY WE  ARE HERE AND WHAT IT  IS PROPOSED THAT WE SHOULD DO.




11   THEN MR.  COV1NGTON WILL  MAKE A STATEMENT  OUTLINING  THE




12   TECHNICAL PROBLEMS INVOLVED  WITH THIS HEARING.  AFTER THAT,




13   WE WILL  HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC.




H                FIRST OF ALL,  I  WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN WHAT THIS




15   HEARING  IS ALL ABOUT.  THE ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTECTION AGENCY




16   HAS A VERY LIMITED ROLE  TO PLAY IN THE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL




17   OF THE  PROPOSED MACARIO  REFINERY.  OUR SOLE PURPOSE HERE  IS




18   TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE SOURCE WILL PREVENT OR INTERFERE




19   WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR




20   QUALITY  STANDARDS IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN.   CONSIDERATIONS




21   OF LAND USE, PLANNING AND  ZONING, COASTAL COMMISSION ARE ALL




22   COMMITTED TO OTHER AGENCIES.  THIS IS OUR SOLE PURPOSE AND




23   OUR SOLE GROUNDS FOR DISCRETION.




24                THE CLEAN AIR  ACT WAS SIGNED  BY'THE PRESIDENT




25   AND BECAME LAW ON DECEMBER 31ST,  1970.  THAT ACT WAS A

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 1   COMPLETE REVISION  OF ALL FEDERAL  AIR POLLUTION LEGISLATION




 2   UP  UNTIL THEN.   SECTION 110 OF THE  ACT REOUIRES EACH  STATE




 3   TO  SUBMIT TO  THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTEC-




 4   TION AGENCY A PLAN TO ACHIEVE AMBIENT AIR QUALITY  STANDARDS




 5   WITHIN THREE  YEARS AFTER THE PROMULGATION OF SUCH  STANDARDS.




 6   SUCH PLANS ARE REQUIRED TO  INCLUDE  A PROCEDURE FOR THE




 7   REVIEW AT THE LOCATION OF NEW SOURCES TO WHICH STANDARDS OF




 8   PERFORMANCE APPLY.  THESE SOURCES INCLUDE PETROLEUM REFINERIES




 9   IF  A STATE DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A  PROCEDURE, THEN THE




10   ADMINISTRATOR MUST, ACCORDING TO  THE ACT, PROMULGATE




n   PROCEDURES WHEREBY EPA  ITSELF WILL  CONDUCT SUCH A  REVIEW.




12               ON MAY 31ST, 1972,  THE  ADMINISTRATOR OF THE EPA




,3   APPROVED THE  CALIFORNIA STATE  IMPLEMENTATION PLAN  WITH




,4   CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS.  ONE OF THE  EXCEPTIONS TO  THE  APPROVAL




15   OF  THE CALIFORNIA PLAN WAS  THAT  IT  DID NOT CONTAIN THE




16   REGULATIONS REQUIRED FOR THE  REVIEW PROCEDURE  TO  CONSTRUCTION




17   OF THE LOCATION OF NEW  SOURCES  FOR  WHICH A STANDARD OF




18   PERFORMANCE WILL APPLY.  THEREFORE, AFTER DUE  CONSIDERATION,




19   THE ADMINISTRATOR PROMULGATED SUCH  REGULATIONS ON  MAY  14,  197:




20   AND WE WILL HAVE A  COPY OF  THOSE REGULATIONS  MADE  A PART




21   OF THIS  RECORD AS EXHIBIT  1.




22                THESE REGULATIONS  HAVE  BEEN  CODIFIED AND




23   PUBLISHED  IN  VOLUME  40  OF  THE CODE  OF  FEDERAL  REGULATIONS




24    IN SECTION  52.233(6).  THAT'S  THE OFFICIAL  PUBLICATION  FOR




25   FEDERAL  REGULATIONS.

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 1               THE  REGULATIONS REQUIRE  THAT NO OWNER  OR  OPERATOR




 2  SHALL COMMENCE CONSTRUCTION OR MODIFICATION AT ANY NEW SOURCE




 3  AFTER THE 14TH OF  MAY,  1973 WITHOUT  FIRST OBTAINING APPROVAL




 4  FROM THE ADMINISTRATOR  OF THE LOCATION OF EACH SUCH SOURCE.




 5  THE  DISCRETION COMMITTED TO THE  ADMINISTRATOR  IS SET  FORTH




 6  IN  THE REGULATION  AND IS AS FOLLOWS:




 7              "NO APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT  OR MODIFY WILL BE




 8  GRANTED UNLESS THE APPLICANT SHOWS TO THE SATISFACTION OF




 9  THE  ADMINISTRATOR  THAT  THE SOURCE WILL NOT PREVENT OR




10  INTERFERE WITH ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF ANY NATIONAL




II   STANDARD."





12               THAT IS  OUR PURPOSE  IN BEING HERE, IN  ORDER




13  TO  DISCHARGE THIS  DUTY.





14               OFFICIALS OF REGION  9 OF  THE ENVIRONMENTAL




15  PROTECTION AGENCY  HAVE  ENGAGED IN A  SOMEWHAT EXTENSIVE




16  SERIES OF MEETINGS.   IN SEPTEMBER OF  1974, EPA MET WITH




17  REPRESENTATIVES  OF THE  MACARIO REFINERY, OFFICIALS OF THE




18  SAN  DIEGO GAS &  ELECTRIC COMPANY FOR  A PRELIMINARY MEETING




19  TO  OUTLINE THE SCOPE OF THE PROPOSED  PROJECT.




20               ON THE 14TH OF OCTOBER,  1974, REGION 9 RECEIVED




21   AN  APPLICATION PURSUANT TO THE REGULATIONS SEEKING APPROVAL




22  OF  THE PROJECT,  AND  THIS WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 2  FOR




23   THE  PURPOSE  OF THIS  HEARING.   THE STAFF OF EPA REGION 9




24  REVIEWED THE APPLICATION,  DETERMINED  THAT, AS SUBMITTED, IT




25  WAS  INCOMPLETE,  AND  REQUESTED ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.

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             ON THE 9TH  OF  DECEMBER,  1974,  ADDITIONAL




INFORMATION  WAS RECEIVED AS AN AMENDMENT TO' THE APPLICATION,




AND THIS  FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE HEARING WILL BE MARKED




EXHIBIT  3.   THE STAFF  THEN COMMENCED A REVIEW OF  THE  APPLI-




CATION TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT  IT MET THE REQUIREMENTS




OF THE CLEAR AIR ACT AND  THE REGULATIONS ADOPTED  PURSUANT





TO IT.




             ON THE 27TH OF MARCH,  1975, THIS YEAR,  THE STAFF




OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MET WITH THE SAN




DIEGO AIR POLLUTION  CONTROL DISTRICT IN SAN DIEGO,  WITH




REPRESENTATIVES OF THE SAN DIEGO  REGIONAL COAST COMMISSION.




THE PROPOSED REFINERY  WAS  DISCUSSED AND REVIEWED  WITH THESE




PEOPLE TO GET  FROM THEM THEIR  FEELINGS AND COMMENTS FOR THE




PURPOSE  OF AIDING EPA  IN  ITS REVIEW.




             ON THE  7TH OF MAY,  1975, EPA PUBLISHED AN




ASSESSMENT OF  THE PROPOSED REFINERY PLAN, AND  THIS COMMENCED




A  PERIOD OF OPEN  PUBLIC COMMENT.   THE ASSESSMENT  WILL BE




MARKED AS EXHIBIT 4  FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS  HEARING.




             THE ASSESSMENT WAS PUBLISHED  IN  THE  NEWSPAPER.




AN AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION TO THAT EFFECT WILL  BE MARKED




AS EXHIBITS 5  AND 6.




             A  PRESS  RELEASE WAS  ISSUED  DESCRIBING THE EPA




PRELIMINARY ASSESSMENT, AND THAT  WAS  ISSUED  TO NEWSPAPERS




 IN TME  VICINITY.  A  COPY  OF THE  PRESS  RELEASE  WILL FOR  THE




PURPOSE  OF  THIS HEARING BE MARKED AS  EXHIBIT  7.

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             SUBSEQUENTLY,  THE STAFF OF  REGION 9 OF  THE




ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION  AGENCY MET AGAIN IN SAN DIEGO  WITH




REPRESENTATIVES OF THE  SAN DIEGO AIR  POLLUTION CONTROL




DISTRICT  AND THE CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD.  AT  THIS




MEETING MORE INFORMATION  WAS FURNISHED  TO THE STAFF OF




REGION 9.   SUBSEQUENT TO  THE PUBLICATION  OF THE PROPOSED




ASSESSMENT,  THE REGIONAL  STAFF RECEIVED ABOUT 150 LETTERS.




THOSE LETTERS HAVE BEEN REVIEWED.  THEY ARE HERE AVAILABLE




FOR PERUSAL AND COMMENT,  AND THEY WILL  BE CONSIDERED  AS




PART OF THE FORMAL RECORD OF THIS HEARING, ALTHOUGH I'M NOT




MARKING THEM AT THIS  TIME.




             AS A RESULT OF THE INFORMATION RECEIVED AT  ALL




OF THESE  MEETINGS WITH  THE SAN DIEGO  AIR POLLUTION  CONTROL




DISTRICT,  THE REGIONAL  COASTAL COMMISSION, THE CALIFORNIA




AIR RESOURCES BOARD,  THE  SAN DIEGO GAS  g ELECTRIC COMPANY




AND OTHERS, AND AS A  RESULT OF THE MANY LETTERS THAT  WERE




RECEIVED  AND SUBMITTED  TO THE REGIONAL  STAFF, IT WAS




DETERMINED THAT EVEN  THOUGH A PUBLIC  HEARING  IS NOT LEGALLY




REQUIRED  FOR THIS PURPOSE, IT WAS DESIRABLE TO HOLD A PUBLIC




HEARING ON THIS ISSUE  IN  THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF  THE PROPOSED




REFINERY.




             LETTERS OF  INQUIRY ON THIS  SUBJECT WERE ALSO




SENT TO THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION AND THE CALIFORNIA




PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION REQUESTING  INFORMATION  FROM




THEM AS TO THE EFFECT  THIS REFINERY WILL HAVE ON THE  SPECIAL

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ISSUES THAT  ARE COMMITTED  TO THEIR DISCRETION.




             ON THE 22ND  OF JULY, 1975 A  RESPONSE WAS




RECEIVED  FROM THE FEDERAL  ENERGY ADMINISTRATI ON, ' AND ON  THE




31ST OF JULY A RESPONSE  WAS RECEIVED FROM THE  CALIFORNIA




PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION.  THESE WILL BE MARKED  IN ORDER




EXHIBIT 8  AND EXHIBIT  9.




             ON THE 25TH  OF JULY, 1975 A  PRESS  RELEASE WAS




AGAIN SENT TO THE NEWSPAPERS IN THE VICINITY AND TO ALL




CITIZENS  WHO HAD SUBMITTED COMMENTS.  A  COPY OF THIS PRESS




RELEASE WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT  10.




             AND A COPY OF  SOME OF THE PRESS COMMENTS THAT




OCCURRED  AS  A RESULT OF THAT I HAVE HERE IN THREE PAGES,




AND THAT  WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 11.




             NOW, 'IN ORDER  TO HEAR FROM ALL MEMBERS  OF  THE




PUBLIC  INTERESTED  IN THE SUBJECT OF THIS PROPOSED MACARIO




REFINERY,  THIS PUBLIC  HEARING HAS BEEN SCHEDULED.   NOTICES




WERE PUBLISHED IN JULY OF  1975 AND ON AUGUST 14TH,  1975




AND ON AUGUST 21ST,  1975 IN THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS.   COPIES




OF THESE  NOTICES WILL  BE INSERTED IN  THE RECORD FOR THE




PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING.




             NOW, AS  I  SAID, THERE  IS  NO  LEGAL  REQUIREMENT




EITHER BY STATUTE OR REQUIREMENT  THAT  REGION 9  OF THE




ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HOLD  A  PUBLIC  HEARING  ON




THE  ISSUE OF THE APPROVAL  OR DISAPPROVAL OF THE APPLICATION




OF THE  PROPOSED REFINERY.    HOWEVER,  IT  IS  THE  POLICY  OF  THE

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 1   AGENCY TO SEEK  PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN ITS WORK AND TO INVITE




 2   PUBLIC COMMENTS.   THIS HEARING IS BEING HELD  FOR THAT PURPOSE




 3   WE DO HAVE A  VERY LIMITED ROLE TO PLAY.   THE  ONLY FUNCTION




 4   THAT WE HAVE  IS TO DETERMINE  WHETHER OR NOT  THE PROPOSED




 5   REFINERY WILL PREVENT OR  INTERFERE WITH THE  ATTAINMENT OR




 6   MAINTENANCE OF  THE NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.




 7               MR. COVINGTON WILL DESCRIBE TO YOU WHAT A




 8   NATIONAL AIR  QUALITY STANDARD IS, WHAT THE STANDARDS ARE  FOR




 9   THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN.  HE  WILL ALSO DESCRIBE HOW THE




10   AGENCY WENT ABOUT PERFORMING  A PROPOSED APPROVAL OF THE




II   APPLICATION AND THE STANDRADS USED FOR REACHING THAT




12   PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION.




13               NOW,  IN ORDER TO  BE AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE TO




14   ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO MAY WISH TO SPEAK   HERE TODAY, WE HAVE




15   A PROCEDURE AS  TO THE ORDER  IN WHICH THOSE WISHING TO SPEAK




16   WILL BE HEARD.   FIRST, WE WILL HEAR FROM  THE ELECTED OFFICIAL




17   I HAVE SOME CARDS AT THE  DESK HERE, AND SO  FAR  I DO NOT HAVE




18   A REGISTRATION CARD FROM  ANY  ELECTED OFFICIALS.  ARE THERE




19   ANY HERE WHO  WISH TO SPEAK?




20              .  I OBSERVE NONE.




21               THEN WE WILL  HEAR FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF FIVE




22   OTHER GROUPS  AS NEARLY AS POSSIBLE IN  THE ORDER  IN WHICH




23   THEY HAVE  REGISTERED.  THE  FIRST GROUP WILL  BE  THE




24   UNAPFILIATED  PRIVATE CITIZENS.   THEN WHEN WE HAVE HEARD  FROM




25   ONE OF THAT GROUP WE WILL HEAR FROM A  REPRESENTATIVE OF A

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PUBLIC AGENCY,  AND THEN  FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF SPECIAL




INTEREST  GROUPS, THEN  FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF BUSINESS  OR




INDUSTRIAL  COUNCIL, AND  FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER  GROUPS




NOT DESCRIBED ABOVE.




             I  WILL TRY TO CALL UPON  ONE  FROM EACH  OF  THESE




GROUPS  IN THE ORDER OF THEIR REGISTRATION IF AT ALL  POSSIBLE.




IF  IT APPEARS--AND IT  DOES--THAT  THERE  IS A LARGE  NUMBER




FROM A  PARTICULAR GROUP,  MORE THAN ONE  MAY BE CALLED  FROM




THAT GROUP  BEFORE GOING  ON TO THE NEXT.




             THESE PROCEEDINGS, AS I  SAID, ARE BEING  REPORTED




AND WILL  BE TRANSCRIBED.   IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED  IF  YOU




WOULD USE THE PODIUM  FOR MAKING  YOUR REMARKS  IN ORDER TO




HAVE A  COMPLETE  RECORD AND TO KNOW WHO  IS SPEAKING SO THAT




YOUR NAME WILL  GET  IN  THE RECORD AND YOUR REMARKS  ACCURATELY




REPORTED.  IT IS  IMPORTANT THAT  YOU  USE THE PODIUM IF AT




ALL POSSIBLE.    ANYONE WHO HAS A WRITTEN.OR PREPARED




STATEMENT NEED  NOT READ IT AT LENGTH.  WE WILL  READ ALL OF




'THE STATEMENTS  THAT  ARE SUBMITTED TO US.  THEY  WLLL BE AS




MUCH A  PART OF  THE  RECORD AS  IF  YOU  HAD  READ  THEM  AT LENGTH.




             WE  WILL  TAKE A RECESS DURING THE  MID-MORNING.




AND AFTER THAT  WE WILL TAKE A QUEST 1ON-AND-ANSWER  PERIOD.




WE  WILL TAKE A  RECESS  AT THE  LUNCH  HOUR.  WE  WILL  RECONVENE




THIS  AFTERNOON  AT  1:30 AND AGAIN AT  7:30.   THERE  WILL BE




CONTINUATIONS OF THIS  HEARING, AND  ALL OF THE  PRELIMINARY




REMARKS WILL NOT BE  MADE.  SO,  IT IS NOT NECESSARY IF YOU

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                                                              in
 1   HAVE BEEN AT THE MORNING MEETING  TO  COME  TO  ALL OF THE OTHERS


 2   UNLESS YOU WISH TO DO SO.


 3               IT WILL BE APPRECIATED  IF  EXTENSIVE REMARKS


 4   COULD BE REDUCED TO WRITING  RATHER  THAN  READ VERBATIM ALOUD.


 5   I  WOULD ALSO APPRECIATE  IT  IF  YOU WOULD  REFRAIN FROM BEING


 6   UNDULY REPETITIVE.  IF SOMEBODY  ELSE HAS  SAID. WHAT YOU'RE


 7   GOING TO SAY,  AND YOU'RE SAT ISFI ED  WI TH  HIS  STATEMENT OF IT,


 8   IT'S PERFECTLY SATISFACTORY  IF  YOU  STAND  UP  AND SAY YOU


 9   AGREE WITH WHATEVER WAS  SAID BEFORE  YOU.   IT WILL SAVE YOUR


JO   TIME AND OURS  AND THE PATIENCE  OF EVERYBODY  INVOLVED.


11               1  WILL NOW. CALL  ON  MR.  COV1NGTON FOR A STATEMENT


12   AND THE BACKGROUND OF THE BASIS  OF  THE SUBJECT MATTER OF

                                                                   i
13   THIS HEARING AND THE APPRAISMENT  OF  THE  MACAR10 REFINERY.


H               MR. COVINGTON:   GOOD  MORNING, LADIES AND


15   GENTLEMEN.


16               AS AN INTRODUCTION  ON THE  TECHNICAL SIDE OF  IT,


17   I  THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR US  TO  --  I  WAS  GOING TO


18   DESCRIBE THE EPA'S ROLE, AND  I'LL SKIP THAT.


19               TWO,  IDENTIFY THE  PERTINENT  ISSUES WHICH WERE


20   RAISED DURING THE COURSE OF  THE  INVESTIGATION OF THIS PROJECT;


21   THIRD, TO DETAIL THE PROCEDURES  INVOLVED IN  THE REVIPW


22   PROCESS; NEXT, TO DISCUSS THE  APPROACH TAKEN BY EPA; AND,


23   FINALLY, TO LIST THE RESULTS AND  CONCLUSIONS  OF OUR STUDIES


24   AS THEY RELATE TO THE AIR QUALITY AND  PROPOSED CONSTRUCTION


25   OF THE REFINERY.

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                                                                11
                                                                    ~l
 1                I  WILL MAKE MENTION  OF THE FACT ONLY  BRIEFLY IN




 2   PASSING THAT OUR ROLE AS A  FEDERAL REGULATORY  AGENCY WAS TO




 3   HAVE ESTABLISHED NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY  STANDARDS




 4   WHICH ARE AIMED AT THE PROTECTION OF THE  PUBLIC  HEALTH AND




 5   WELFARE, AND THIS HAS BEEN  DONE, AND WE HAVE  IN  THE CONTEXT




 6   OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY EXAMINED  THE EMISSIONS  FROM THE




 7   REFINERY.




 8                STATE AND LOCAL AGENCIES ARE  REQUIRED TO DEVELOP




 9   ACCEPTABLE  PLANS FOR ACHIEVING AND MAINTAINING THESE STANDARDS




10   AND TO SUBMIT  THEM TO EPA FOR APPROVAL.   IN  SOME INSTANCES




11   A PORTION OF THOSE PLANS THUS FAR SUBMITTED  TO EPA HAVE




12   BEEN INADEQUATE AND WERE SUBSEQUENTLY DISAPPROVED BY EPA.




13   WHEN THESE  DISAPPROVALS OCCURRED, EPA WAS REQUIRED TO




14   PREPARE AND IMPLEMENT A SUBSTITUTE PLAN.   IT'S EXACTLY THAT




15   SITUATION WHICH EXISTS TODAY, WHERE EPA HAS  HAD TO SUBSTITUTE




16   ITS REGULATIONS FOR THE REVIEW OF NEW SOURCES OF AIR




17   POLLUTION  IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY.




18                NOW, EPA NEW SOURCE REVIEW  REGULATIONS REQUIRE




19   THAT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CONSTRUCT A NEW  SOURCE OF AIR




20   POLLUTION  MUST OBTAIN APPROVAL PRIOR TO BEGINNING CONSTRUC-




21   TION.   IT  IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE  APPLICANT TO




22   DEMONSTRATE TO EPA THAT THEIR PROJECT WILL NOT PREVENT OR




23   INTERFERE  WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR  MAINTENANCE OF THE NATIONAL




24   STANDARDS.   IN THIS REGARD, MACARIO SUBMITTED ITS APPLICATION,




25   AS WE HAVE  OUTLINED; AND ON THE BASIS OF  THE DATA THAT THEY

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                                                                12
 V




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 9




10




11




12




13




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15




16




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18




19




20




21




22




23




24




25
HAVE PROVIDED,  CONDUCTED  OUR PRELIMINARY  ANALYSIS.  REGULA-




TIONS REQUIRE  EPA TO PREPARE AN ANALYSIS  OF THE EFFECT OF




SUCH CONSTRUCTION ON THE  AMBIENT AIR QUALITY,  AND TO PROPOSE




APPROVAL  OR  DISAPPROVAL BASED ON THAT  ANALYSIS.  THE ANALYSIS




AND PROPOSED ACTIONS ARE  THEN MADE AVAILABLE TO PUBLIC




COMMENT,  AND WE HAVE RECITED THE SEQUENCE IN SUBSTANTIAL




DETAIL  AS TO HOW THAT  PROCEDURE WAS CARRIED OUT.




             AT THIS  POINT WE ARE CONDUCTING A HEARING




BECAUSE,  AS  A MATTER OF  POLICY, EPA MAKES EVERY REASONABLE




EFFORT  TO OBTAIN SUBSTANTIVE CITIZEN  INPUT 'TO AID  IN OUR




DECISION-MAKING.   1  THINK IT'S  IMPORTANT TO CALL  YOUR




ATTENTION TO THE FACT  THAT EPA  ALSO HAS MAJOR  RESPONSIBILITIES




FOR  THE PREVENTION  OF  SIGNIFICANT  DETERIORATION OF  AIR




QUALITY.   EPA REGULATIONS REQUIRE  THAT CERTAIN  AIR  QUALITY




EFFECTS BE LIMITED  TO  A FIXED AMOUNT  OR  INCREMENT.   UNDER




THESE  REGULATIONS,  WHERE  IT  IS  DEMONSTRATED THAT  A  PROPOSED




PROJECT WILL NOT VIOLATE  THE AIR QUALITY  INCREMENT,  APPROVAL




WILL  ALSO BE GRANTED.




             IN ORDER TO PROPERLY  IDENTIFY  THE  ISSUES  RAISED




BY THE  PROJECT, A  BRIEF REVIEW  OF  THE RELEVENT  PORTIONS OF




THE  CONTROL STRATEGIES FOR  THE  SAN DIEGO  COUNTY AIR QUALITY




CONTROL  REGION  1  THINK IS IN ORDER.




             YOU'RE  NOT HEARING  US  BACK THERE?   ALL RIGHT.




              IS  THIS BETTER,  IF  1  GET  A LITTLE  CLOSER?




             A  VERY  IMPORTANT ELEMENT  OF  THE STRATEGY FOR

-------
                                                                 13
 1  ATTAINING  AND MAINTAINING  STANDARDS  IN  THIS LOCALITY  IS  IN




 2  PART BASED ON THE USE  OF  CLEAN FUELS.   BY THAT I MEAN




 3  NATURAL  GAS AND LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, AND SPECIFICALLY  LESS




 4  THAN .5  PERCENT SULPHUR CONTENT, WHEREVER THAT'S POSSIBLE.




 5               THE GROWING UNAVAILABILITY  OF ADEQUATE QUANTITIES




 6  OF THESE  FUELS WILL HAVE  AN ADVERSE  EFFECT ON AIR QUALITY.




 7  FOR EXAMPLE,  THE USE OF FUEL OIL IN  PLACE OF NATURAL  GAS




 8  WILL RESULT IN SIGNIFICANT INCREASES  IN EMISSIONS OF  OXIDES




 9  OF NITROGEN,  SULPHUR DIOXIDE, HYDROCARBONS, AND PARTICULATE




 10  MATTER.   THE  UNAVAILABILITY OF LOW-SULPHUR CONTENT OIL  WILL




 11  RESULT  IN  EVEN MORE SULPHUR DIOXIDE  EMISSIONS TO THE  ATMOS-




 12  PHERE.   DATA  OBTAINED  BOTH FROM THE  FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINIS-




 13  TRAT10N  AND THE STATE  PUBLIC UTILITIES  SEEM TO'PROVIDE  AMPLE




 14  EVIDENCE  THAT THESE NECESSARY FUELS  ARE NOW AND WILL  CONTINUE




 15  TO BE  IN  VERY SHORT SUPPLY IN CALIFORNIA AS WELL AS  ELSEWHERE




 16  IN THE  NATION.




 17               COMPLICATING  THE PROBLEM OF SHORTAGES  IN  CLEAN




 18  FUELS  IS  THE  ISSUE OF  FUELS ALLOCATION.  THERE I-S A  QUESTION




 19  AS TO  WHETHER THE CLEAN FUELS PRODUCED  AT MACARIO WILL  BE




20  USED IN  SAN DIEGO COUNTY  AND, THEREFORE, HAVE A BENEFICIAL




21   EFFECT.ON  THE AIR QUALITY  IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY




22  CONTROL  REGION.  THE ALLOCATION OF  CLEAN FUELS, HOWEVER,




23  IS.BEYOND  THE SCOPE OF EPA'S SPECIFIC AUTHORITIES.   WE  ARE,




24  AS'A FEDERAL  AGENCY, HOWEVER, WORKING CLOSELY WITH THE




25  FEDERAL  ENERGY ADMINISTRATION AND THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES

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 1   COMMISSION,  BOTH OF WHOM DO HAVE  ALLOCATION AUTHORITY TO




 2   INSURE THAT  ANY  ASSUMPTIONS MADE  IN OUR ANALYSES  CONCERNING




 3   THE MARKETING  OF CLEAN FUELS  PRODUCED AT THE  REFINERY ARE





 4   VALID.




 5                SINCE THESE TWO  ISSUES--THAT IS,  FIRST, THE




 6   NEED  FOR  THE REFINERY  IN THE  CONTEXT OF THE  CONTROL STRATEGY




 7   HERE  AND,  SECOND, THE  FUELS  ALLOCATION MATTER--ARE CRITICAL




 8   TO OUR ANALYSES, WE ARE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN RECEIVING




 9   TESTIMONY  ON THESE SUBJECTS.




10                A NUMBER OF OTHER ISSUES HAVE  BEEN RAISED




II   REGARDING  OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL ASPECTS OR POTENTIAL EFFECTS




12   OF THE PROJECT.    THESE  INCLUDE SUCH REAL  CONCERNS AS




13   POTENTIAL  OIL SPl'LLS,  NOISE  POLLUTION, AESTHETICS, AND  THE




H   EFFECTS  ON FUTURE GROWTH.   NOW, THE EPA HAS  CONCERN WITH  AND




15   HAS AUTHORITY PERTAINING  TO  SEVERAL OF THESE  ISSUES.




16   HOWEVER,  THESE MATTERS IN  MANY CASES -- OR IN ALL  CASES




17   ARE GOING TO BE ADDRESSED  TO OTHER FEDERAL,  STATE, OR  LOCAL




18   DECISION-MAKING PROCESSES.




19                THE PURPOSE  OF THIS HEARING,  AS  HAS BEEN STATED




20   BY MR.  WALKER TODAY,  RELATES SOLELY TO THE PURPOSE OF




21   DETERMINING THE AIR  QUALITY  ASPECTS OF THE PROPOSED  REFINERY.




22                THE APPROACH  TAKEN TO  ANALYZE  THE AIR  QUALITY




23   EFFECTS  OF THE  PROPOSED  REFINERY CONSISTED OF TWO  PARTS.




24   THE FIRST WAS CONCERNED  WITH THE REGION-WIDE IMPACT  OF  THE




25   PROJECT,  AND THE SECOND  EXAMINED THE LOCALIZED EFFECT  IN  THE

-------
                                                                15
                                                                     1
 1   CARLSBAD AREA.   EVALUATIONS WERE  MADE TO DETERMINE  THE AIR


 2   QUALITY EFFECT  IN THE INCREASES  OF THE EMISSIONS  OF HYDRO-


 3   CARBONS, SOX,  CARBONMONOXIDE,  AND OXIDES OF NITROGEN AND


 4   PART!CULATES.   ALTHOUGH ALL INCREASES IN EMISSION ARE OF


 5   CONCERN, THE  ONLY POLLUTANT WHICH SEEMED TO RAISE A QUESTION


 6   AS TO THE POSSIBLE INTERFERENCE  WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR


 7   MAINTENANCE  OF THE STANDARD WAS  HYDROCARBONS,   THIS POLLUTANT


 8   IS OF CONCERN BECAUSE HYDROCARBON IS A PRIME  CONSTITUENT


 9   IN THE  FORMATION OF OXIDANTS,  AND THERE ARE  FREQUENT


10   VIOLATIONS  IN THE OXIDANT STANDARD  IN THE  SAN DIEGO AIR


1!   QUALITY CONTROL REGION.  ANY  INCREASE IN HYDROCARBON


12'  EMISSIONS WOULD INTERFERE WITH THE MAINTENANCE OF THE OXIDANT


13   STANDARD UNLESS THESE  INCREASES  WERE ACCOMPANIED BY  APPRO-


14   PRIATE  CORRESPONDING HYDROCARBON REDUCTIONS.   WE HAVE


15   CONCLUDED  IN THIS CASE  THAT.HYDROCARBON EMISSIONS ARE


16   EXPECTED TO BE LESS THAN  THOSE EXPECTED TO OCCUR WITHOUT


H   THE  AVAILABILITY OF CLEAN  FUELS.  THIS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT


18   IN OUR  ANALYSES WHICH  HAVE  BEEN MADE AVAILABLE.


19                NOW, THE MACARIO  REFINERY SITUATION HAS  SOME


20   UNIQUE  FEATURES WHICH  WERE  CONSIDERED IN  THE  TOTAL  ANALYSES.


21   FIRST,  THE  PRIME PURPOSE  OF THE REFINERY  IS 'TO PRODUCE  LOW-


22   SULPHUR FUEL OILS FOR  USE  PRIMARILY  BY SAN DIEGO GAS  5


23   ELECTRIC  WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AREA.  WITHOUT  THIS  FUEL,  IT


24   IS HIGHLY  PROBABLE THAT THERE WILL  NOT BE  SUFFICIENT  LOW-


25   SULPHUR FUELS AVAILABLE TO  MEET THE  SAN  DIEGO GAS  S  ELECTRIC

-------
                                                                16
 1   FUEL DEMANDS  FOR 1978.  IF  THIS  TURNS OUT TO 'BE  THE  CASE,




 2   THEN THE ONLY  AVAILABLE FUEL  FOR MEETING THE  DEMANDS  WILL




 3   ESSENTIALLY  BE A HIGHER-SULPHUR-CONTENT OIL.   A  LARGE-SCALE




 4   SWITCH TO HiGH-SULPHUR-CONTENT  OIL WILL SERIOUSLY  JEOPARDIZE




 5   THE MAINTENANCE OF THE SULPHUR  DIOXIDE AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.




 6                SECOND, AND EVEN  MORE RELEVANT TO THE  AIR QUALITY




 7   ISSUE; is THE  REFINERY'S  PROPOSED PRODUCTION  OF  SYNTHETIC




 8   NATURAL GAS.   THE SNG PRODUCED  IS EXPECTED TO BE UTILIZED AS




 9   A REPLACEMENT  FUEL AT FACILITIES WHERE NATURAL GAS CURTAILMEN1




10   WILL OCCUR.




11                LATEST STATE  PUBLIC UTILITY COMMISSION DATA




12   INDICATE THAT  A COMPLETE  CURTAILMENT FOR NATURAL GAS FOR




13   ALL THE FIRM--AND BY  "FIRM/1  I  MEAN NON-INTERRUPTABLE




H   CUSTOMERS,  SUCH AS IN YOUR  HOMES--BY 1979.   FURTHER,  AN  FEA




15   REPORT ON THE  IMPACT  OF THESE CURTAILMENTS  INDICATES A




16   LARGE SHORTFALL IN MIDDLE  DISTILLATE OIL, WHICH  IS THE




17   REPLACEMENT FUEL FOR  NATURAL  GAS.  THESE SHORTAGES WILL  HAVE




18   AN ADVERSE  EFFECT ON  A]R  QUALITY BY SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASING




19   EMISSIONS FROM ALL ALTERNATIVE  FUEL CONSUMPTION.




20                WE CONSIDERED THESE FACTORS IN  CONDUCTING THAT




21   PORTION OF  THE ANALYSIS DEALING WITH THE REGIONAL EFFECT.




22   WE ASSUMED  FULL UTILIZATION OF  ALL MACARIO  PRODUCTS WOULD




23   BE WITHIN SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION TO MAKE UP




24   THE PROJECTED FUEL SHORTAGES.  AS INDICATED  IN OUR MAY 7TH,




25   1975 ANALYSIS, THE USE OF THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL  GAS PRODUCED

-------
                                                                17
 1   BY MACAR10, WHICH  IS -- WHAT  IS  IT?   A HUNDRED  MILLION?

 2   CUBIC FEET PER  DAY IN LIEU OF  THE  ALTERNATIVE  FUELS  HAS A

 3   BENEFICIAL EFFECT  ON AIR QUALITY.   SINCE THE  PROJECTED

 4   CURTAILMENT FOR 1978 WAS ESTIMATED TO BE TWENTY-NINE AND A

 5   HALF MILLION  CUBIC FEET PER DAY,  OUR  ANALYSIS  ASSUMED THAT     j
                                                                     I
 6   THE ADDITIONAL  71.5, THE BALANCE,  WOULD BE  UTILIZED FOR

 7   OTHER PURPOSES  WITHIN THE SAN  DIEGO  AIR QUALITY CONTROL

 8   REGION.  HOWEVER,  THIS WAS DONE  PRIMARILY TO  SIMPLIFY THE

 9   ANALYSIS.  COMPARABLE RESULTS  FROM AN AIR QUALITY STANDARD

10   POINT WOULD BE  REALIZED  IF SYNTHETIC GAS WERE MADE AVAILABLE

I]   ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THE PREDICTED CURTAILMENT.

12               THE ISSUE THEN BECOMES ONE OF ASSURING THAT ANY

13   REALLOCATION  OF MACARIO  SNG  OUT  OF SAN DIEGO  DOES NOT EXCEED

14   THAT THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED  TO MAINTAIN AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.

15               NOW,  ONE OF  THE  MORE SIGNIFICANT  CONCERNS RAISED

16   IN RESPONSE TO  OUR MAY 7TH ASSESSMENT WAS THE EFFECTS OF

17   THE REFfNERY  ON THE LOCAL AIR QUALITY AND WHAT THE COMBINED

18   EFFECT OF THE REFINERY AND THE ENCINA POWER PLANT WOULD BE.

19   BECAUSE OF THESE CONCERNS, WE UNDERTOOK FURTHER STUDIES AND

20   PERFORMED AIR QUALITY MODELING ANALYSES TO  DETERMINE THE

21   EFFECTS.  THE RESULTS OF THESE STUDIES AND  ANALYSES ARE

22   BEING MADE A  PART OF THE RECORD AMD ARE AVAILABLE FOR

23   PUBLIC COMMENT.                                         '   '

24               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  WE WILL MARK  THIS ONE

25   EXHIBIT  12.

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 1                MR.  COVINGTON:   THE MAJOR POLLUTANT FROM THE




 2   REFINERY  IS  502.   THEREFORE,  STUDIES AND  MODELING WERE




 3   CONDUCTED  FOR  THIS POLLUTANT.   MODELING RUNS  WERE MADE FOR




 4   A NUMBER OF  DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND CONFIGURATIONS.




 5   RESULTS OF ALL THE STUDIES  INDICATED THAT THERE WILL BE NO




 6   LOCALIZED  VIOLATIONS OF  AIR QUALITY STANDARDS FOR SOX, NOR




 7   WILL THE AIR QUALITY INCREMENT, AS DEFINED IN EPA'S




 8   REGULATIONS  FOR  SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATI ON, BE  EXCEEDED.




 9                NOW,  1  RECOGNIZE THAT WHAT I  HAVE JUST GONE




10   THROUGH IS LABORIOUS, IT'S  TECHNICAL,  IT'S DIFFICULT




11   PERHAPS IN UNDERSTANDING JUST SITTING HERE HEARING IT  FOR




12   THE FIRST  TIME.   RECOGNIZING THIS, AS MR.  WALKER SAID, WE




13   WILL RECEIVE TESTIMONY  FROM THOSE WERE ARE PREPARED TO GIVE




14   IT NOW, AND  WE WILL  ULTIMATELY TAKE A BREAK.    I HAVE BROUGHT




]5   MY TECHNICAL STAFF WITH  ME.   WE WILL GO OFF THE RECORD, AND




16   WE WILL DO OUR VERY  BEST LATER IN THE MORNING  TO TRY TO




17   ANSWER QUESTIONS WHICH  MAY  VERY WELL BE ON YOUR MIND:




18   "WHAT ASSUMPTIONS?   HOW  DID YOU DO  IT?" AND SO FORTH.




19                BASED UPON  TH'E  RESULTS OF  THE ANALYSES AND THE




20   'ACCOMPANYING ASSUMPTIONS, WE HAVE MADE THE FOLLOWING




21   CONCLUSIONS :




22                FIRST,  THE  EMISSIONS  FROM THE REFINERY WILL NOT




23   PREVENT OR  INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT  OR MAINTENANCE OF




24   ANY NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY  STANDARD EITHER LOCALLY OR




25   REGIONALLY.

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                                                                19
 1               SECOND,  THE EMISSIONS  FROM THE REFINERY  WILL




 2   NOT RESULT  IN  A DETERIORATION  OF  THE EXISTING AIR  QUALITY




 3   AS DEFINED  IN  THE EPA REGULATION  FOR SIGNIFICANT  DETERIORATI




 4               OUR RECOMMENDED  ACTION,  BASED ON  THESE CONCLU-




 5   SIONS, IS TO  ISSUE AN APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT THE  MACAR10




 6   REFINERY.   THE APPROVAL WOULD  BE  SUBJECT TO CONDITIONS WHOSE




 7   PURPOSE WOULD  BE TO INSURE THAT OPERATIONS AT  THE  REFINERY




 8   WILL NOT CAUSE AIR QUALITY VIOLATIONS.  TYPICAL  TECHNICAL




 9   CONDITIONS  WHICH WOULD BE  INCLUDED ARE COMPLIANCE. WITH




10   STATE .AND LOCAL AIR QUALITY  REGULATIONS AND A CONTINGENCY




11   OR SHUT DOWN  SITUATION DURING  ADVERSE CONDITIONS.   STANDARD




12   CONDITIONS  WHICH ARE TYPICALLY INCLUDED  IN ALL PERMITS




13   GRANTED BY  EPA UNDER THESE  REGULATIONS REQUIRE RECORD




H   KEEPING, NOTIFICATIONS, AND  RIGHT OF  ACCESS  TO INSPECT  THE




15   FACILITY AND  SO  FORTH.  FAILURE TO ABIDE  BY  ANY CONDITION




16   OF OUR APPROVAL  WOULD  SUBJECT  THE COMPANY  TO  APPROPRIATE




17   ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS AS OUTLINED IN THE CLEAN -AIR  ACT.




18                THE  GRANTING  OF  AN APPROVAL  BY  EPA ON THE  BASIS




19   OF THE AIR  QUALITY EFFECT DOES NOT  INFER  APPROVAL AS  TO




20   ANY OTHER  ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS.  MACAR10  MUST STILL  HAVE




21   APPROVAL  FROM  THE SAN  DIEGO AIR POLLUTION  CONTROL DISTRICT




22   REGARDING  THEIR  FACILITIES AND COMPLIANCE  WITH APPROVED




23   PORTIONS  OF THE  STATE  IMPLEMENTATION  PLAN,  AND ALL  OTHER




24   LOCAL REGULATIONS.   APPROVALS ALSO  MUST  BE  OBTAINED FROM




25   OTHER AGENCIES  SUCH  AS THE COASTAL  ZONE  COMMISSION, THE

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                                                             20
                                                            '" n
 1   REGIONAL  WATER  QUALITY  BOARD,  AND SO FORTH  TO THE  EXTENT
 2   OF  THEIR  AUTHORITY,  AS  WELL AS THE APPROPRIATE LOCAL  ZONING
 3   REQUIREMENTS.
 4               WE  ARE  SEEKING YOUR INPUT ON THESE CONCLUSIONS
 5   AND PROPOSED ACTION  AT  TODAY'S HEARING,  AND IN WRITING,  IF
 6   YOU DESIRE.   WE WILL BE KEEPING THE RECORD OPEN FOR THE
 7   NEXT 30  DAYS.   ALL  COMMENTS RECEIVED WILL BE CONSIDERED
 8   BEFORE MAKING OUR FINAL DECISION.
 9               THANK -YOU FOR BEARING WITH US THROUGH  THIS LONG
10   EXPLANATION.   I HOPE YOU'RE STILL WITH US.
11               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
12   WE  ALL APOLOGIZE FOR THE NECESSITY OF HAVING TO MAKE  A LONG
13   PRELIMINARY  EXPLANATION.  AFTER ALL, WE  DID COME HERE TO
14   HEAR YOU,  NOT FOR YOU TO HEAR US.
15               1 WILL  NOW  CALL ON MR. KEN SCHULTZ, LEUCADIA
16   TOWN COUNCIL.
17               MR. SCHULTZ:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. WALKER.
18   GOOD MORNING.
19               THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL IS A CIVIC ORGANIZATION
20   DEDICATED TO COMMUNITY  IMPROVEMENT IN LEUCADIA, THE TOWN
21   IMMEDIATELY  SOUTH OF THE SITE OF THE PROPOSED MACARIO
22   REFINERY.   I  AM PRESIDENT OF THAT TOWN COUNCIL.  WE ARE
23   QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL IMPACTS OF THE PROPOSED
24   REFINERY  ON  LEUCADIA, AND I WOULD LIKE TO RAISE SOME  POINTS
25   CONCERNING THAT THIS MORNING.

-------
                                                                 21
 1               IN YOUR TENTATIVE PROPOSAL  TO  APPROVE' THE




 2  REFINERY,  YOU CITED FOUR  REASONS FOR  THIS  APPROVAL.  WE  ARE




 3  CONCERNED  THAT ALL THE  DATA MAY NOT HAVE  BEEN CONSIDERED,




 4  AND WOULD  LIKE TO RAISE  SOME POINTS CONCERNING THESE




 5  CONCLUSIONS.




 6               THE FIRST  REASON CITED  IS THAT THE NEW  EMISSIONS




 7  OF CARBON  MOM I XIDE, NITROGEN OXIDE, AND SULPHUR DIOXIDE  WILL




 8  NOT PREVENT MAINTENANCE  OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY




 9  STANDARDS  IN THE SAN  DIEGO AIR QUALITY  CONTROL REGION.   THE




10  DATA  SUBMITTED BY MACARIO SEEM TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS FOR




1J  THE REFINERY, BUT NO  MENTION IS MADE  OF OTHER SOURCES




12  ASSOCIATED WITH THE REFINERY.  THE  REFINERY WILL LEAD  TO .A




13  HOST  OF  OTHER CHEMICAL  INDUSTRIES USING REFINERY PRODUCTS




14  AND BY-PRODUCTS.  MOST  OF THESE WILL  LOCATE AT THE  ADJACENT




15  PROPOSED JAPATUL INDUSTRIAL PARK, WH1 Chi IS OWED BY  SAN DIEGO




16  GAS £ ELECTRIC RIGHT  ADJACENT TO THE  REFINERY SITE.  WE  ARE




.17  CONCERNED  THAT THE ADDITIVE EFFECTS  FROM POLLUTANTS FROM




18  THESE INDUSTRIES WERE  NOT TAKEN INTO  ACCOUNT WHEN  THESE




19  CONCLUSIONS WERE DRAWN,  AND FEEL THESE  EFFECTS MUST INDEED




20  BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.




21               THE SECOND REASON CITED FOR TENTATIVE  APPROVAL




22  WAS THAT THE AIR QUALITY WOULD BE BETTER, EVEN  INCLUDING




23  THE 14 TONS PER DAY OF EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY  IF




24  EXISTING INDUSTRY USED LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL FROM THE REFINERY




25  THAN  IF  THEY USED HIGH-SULPHUR FUEL OIL.   THIS WOULD APPEAR

-------
                                                                  22
  1   TO ONLY BE  THE CASE IF THE  PRODUCTS OF THE  REFINERY WERE




  2   ONLY USED WITHIN THE SAN  DIEGO AIR BASIN.   AND YOU MENTIONED




  3   IN YOUR PREAMBLE HERE THIS  MORNING THAT  YOU HAVE NO MEANS




  4   OF ENFORCING  THIS USE.   IF  GUARANTEES ARE  NOT OBTAINED  THAT




  5   THE REFINERY  PRODUCTS WOULD BE USED IN THE  SAN DIEGO. AIR




  6   QUALITY AREA,  THEN IT WOULD APPEAR THAT  THE REFINERY WOULD




  7   DEFINITELY  INCREASE AIR  POLLUTION  IN THIS  AREA.




  8       .         THE THIRD REASON GIVEN IS THAT  THE CARLSBAD




  9   REFINERY  IS  NEEDED TO PROVIDE LOW-SULPHUR  OIL TO THIS




 10   REGION.   IT  WOULD APPEAR  THAT THIS PROPOSED -- THERE ARE




 11   REALLY ONLY  TWO OPTIONS.   FIRST IS THE USE  OF LOW-SULPHUR




 12   OIL REFINED  AT THE CARLSBAD REFINERY, OR THE USE OF  HIGH-




 13   SULPHUR FUEL  OIL.  IN FACT,  I WOULD THINK  THERE IS A THIRD




 14   OPTION:   THAT IS, THE USE OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL REFINED




 15   ELSEWHERE.




 16                WE ARE TOLD  BY  MOVING  THE PROPOSED REFINERY




 17   SOMEWHAT  DIRECTLY TO THE  EAST WE COULD GET IT UP OUT OF THE




'18   SAN DIE-GO COASTAL AIR BASIN, WHICH HAS FREQUENT INVERSIONS,




 19   WHICH WOULD  THEN MITIGATE SEVERAL  OF THE AIR POLLUTION




 20   IMPACTS OF  THE REFINERY.   WE ARE CONCERNED THAT THE LOCATION




 21   OF THE REFINERY PERHAPS  IN  THE SAN DIEGO BUT OUT OF THE




 22   COASTAL AIR  BASIN WAS NOT CONSIDERED, AND  FEEL IT  SHOULD  BE




 23   AS AN OPTION.




 24                THE FOURTH AND  FINAL REASON  GIVEN FOR  TENTATIVE




 25   APPROVAL  OF  THE REFINERY  WAS, AGAIN, THAT  THE PROJECT   WOULD

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10


II


12


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15


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17


18


19


20


21


22


23


24


25
                                                                23
 NOT PREVENT MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL  AMBIENT AIR QUALITY       I
                                                                  S

 STANDARDS IN THE  AREA, AND WE  ARE  CONCERNED THAT  ALL  THE      j


 IMPACTS OF THIS  PROJECT MAY NOT  HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED.   WAS


 CONSIDERATION  GIVEN, FOR EXAMPLE,  TO THE EMISSIONS  FROM


 THE WORKERS' VEHICLES, THE MATERIAL  TRANSPORT  ASSOCIATED


 WITH THE REFINERY AND ITS SURROUNDING PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES


 AND WERE INCREASED EMISSIONS  FROM  THE INCREASED  INDUSTRIAL


 DEVELOPMENT THAT  THE REFINERY  WOULD  DRAW TAKEN INTO CONSI-


 DERATION?  WE  FEEL THAT ALL ASPECTS  MUST BE  INCLUDED AND NOT


 JUST THOSE THINGS COMING DIRECTLY  OUT OF THE  REFINERY STACKS.


             THE  TOWN COUNCIL  IS  QUITE CONCERNED  ABOUT THE


•CONSEQUENCES OF  APPROVAL OF THE  PROPOSED REFINERY.   WE WOULD


 APPRECIATE YOUR  CONSIDERATION  AND  RESPONSE  TO  THESE POINTS


 AND QUESTIONS  WE  HAVE RAISED.


             THANK YOU.


             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK  YOU, MR.  SCHULTZ.


            (APPLAUSE)


             MR.  SCHULTZ, MR.  COVINGTON HAS  SOME  QUESTIONS


 IF YOU WOULD  REMAIN AT THE  PODIUM  FOR A MINUTE.


             MR.  SCHULTZ:  THANK  YOU.


             MR.  COVINGTON:  MR.  SCHULTZ, CAN  YOU GIVE us A


 LITTLE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION? CAN YOU TELL ME AGAIN:   IS


 THE INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT WE'RE CONCERNED WITH  WITHIN YOUR


 CITY LIMITS,  OR  IS THAT SOME  --


             MR.  SCHULTZ:  LEUCADIA  IS.NOT AN  INCORPORATED

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 1   AREA.   WE ARE AN  UNINCORPORATED TOWN WITHIN THE CITY OF




 2   SAN DIEGO.  WE ARE  THE CLOSEST COMMUNITY  TO THE REFINERY




 3   WITH THE EXCEPTION  OF CARLSBAD, WHICH  I  BELIEVE SURROUNDS




 4   THE INCORPORATED  AREA THAT THE REFINERY  IS SUPPOSED TO  BE  IN.




 5               MR.  COVINGTON:  ALL RIGHT.   IS THE INDUSTRIAL




 6   PARK AREA THAT YOU  REFERRED TO IN  AN  UNINCORPORATED PORTION




 7   OF THE COUNTY?




 8               MR.  SCHULTZ:  YES, THAT  IS  CORRECT.




 9               MR.  COVINGTON:  AND, THEREFORE, SUBJECT TO  THEIR




10   ZONING AND GENERAL  PLAN?




I]               MR.  SCHULTZ:  TO  THE BEST  OF MY KNOWLEDGE.




12               MR.  COVINGTON:  DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE  AT




13   ALL AS TO WHAT  THAT GENERAL PLAN CALLS  FOR, THE  TYPE  OF




14   DEVELOPMENT THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED OR  POSSIBLE THERE?




15               MR.  SCHULTZ:  IT  is  MY UNDERSTANDING  THAT  THE




16   PLAN DESIGNATION FOR THE  REFINERY  -- OR PROPOSED  REFINERY




17   AND INDUSTRIAL  PARK AREA  IS PRESENTLY LIGHT  INDUSTRIAL.




18               MR.  COVINGTON:  CAN  1  ASSUME  -- PERHAPS  I'M




19   GOING BEYOND  YOUR EXPERTISE AND  KNOWLEDGE.  WOULD THAT




20   EXCLUDE  --




2i               MR.  SCHULTZ:   IT'S  MY  IMPRESSIONS  THAT WOULD




22   EXCLUDE  THE  REFINERY,  BUT'IT  APPEARS TO BE  --  DOES NOT




23   APPEAR  TO BE  A  CONSIDERATION  GIVEN RIGHT  NOW.




24                MR.  COVINGTON:  OKAY.   THAT'S  ALL  1  NEED  AT




25   THIS MOMENT.   THANK YOU.

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                                                                25
 1               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU,  SIR.




 2               IN AN EFFORT  TO  FOLLOW OUR SCHEDULE,  I'M GOING




 3  TO DEPART  FROM IT SOMEWHAT  BECAUSE THE REFINERY DOES HAVE




 4  SOME  INTEREST IN THIS HEARING.   I  WILL FOR  THE PURPOSE OF




 5  THIS  HEARING AT THIS TIME  CALL  ON MR. BRUCE BEAN.




 6               MR.  BEAN:  WE'RE  GOING TO USE THE  VIEWGRAPH.




 7               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   MR.  BEAN,  DO  YOU HAVE COPIES




 8  OF THE VIEWGRAPHS FOR THE  PEOPLE AT THE  DAIS?




 9               MR.  BEAN:   I  DO  NOT NOW, BUT I  WILL HAVE IN MY




10  WRITTEN  TESTIMONY.




11               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   YOU'RE GOING  TO  SUBMIT WRITTEN




12  TESTIMONY?




13               MR.  BEAN:   YES.   I'LL HAVE TO DO THAT LATER.   1




14  DON'T HAVE  IT WITH ME.




15               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   FOR THE SAKE  OF  THE RECORD,  1




16  WANT  TO  KNOW WHETHER OR  NOT  WE  ARE GOING TO GET THE VIEW-




17  GRAPHS  IN  AS PART OF THE  HEARING RECORD.




18               MR.  BEAN:   NOT TODAY, BUT YOU WILL GET THEM.




19  [ CAN MAKE THEM TODAY  IF  YOU WANT TO HAVE THEM AVAILABLE




20  FOR THIS AFTERNOON.




21                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   WE WOULD LIKE THAT SO WE




22  COULD HAVE A COMPLETE HEARING RECORD.




23               MR. BEAN:   FINE.




24               GENTLEMEN,  I'M BRUCE BEAN, MANAGER OF MACAR10




25  INDEPENDENT REFINERY COMPANY, WITH OFFICES  AT 5350 AVENIDA

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 1   ENC1NAS,  CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA.




 2                I  WILL KEEP MY  PRESENTATION BRIEF.   HOWEVER, I




 3   WANT TO COVER  THE PURPOSE OF  THE MACAR10 PROJECT AND WHY




 4   THE PROPOSED SITE WAS SELECTED,  AND A LITTLE  BIT ABOUT THE




 5   PROJECT AND  THE BASIS FOR THE AIR EMISSIONS AND THE EXTENT




 6   AND THE RESULTS OF OUR METEOROLOGICAL STUDIES.




 7                THE PURPOSE OF  THE PROJECT IS  BASICALLY TO




 8   PROVIDE A MORE SECURE SOURCE OF CLEAN LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL




 9   FOR THE SAN  DIEGO AREA.   THIS IS IN RESPONSE  TO THE REGULA-




10   TIONS WHICH  ARE PUT OUT BY  THE APCD AND  THE  EPA REQUIRING




11   THE USE OF THESE  FUELS  IN ORDER TO KEEP  OUR  AIR CLEAN.  THE




12   REGULATIONS  PROVIDE FOR THE FUELS TO BE  USED  BUT THEY DON'T




13   PROVIDE  FOR  THE FUELS TO  BE PRODUCED.




]4                THE MORE  IMPORTANT  IT  IS TO  MAINTAIN'OUR  AIR




15   QUALITY,  THE MORE  IMPORTANT  IT  IS TO HAVE  THOSE CLEAN FUELS




16   AVAILABLE.  NATURAL GAS  IS  IN SHORT SUPPLY,  AS.YOU  CAN  SEE




17   IN  THIS  GRAPH THERE ON  MY  -- ON YOUR RIGHT.   PERHAPS  YOU




18   CAN SEE.   THE GRAPH ON  THE  TOP  SHOWS THE DECLINING  AVA1L-




19   ABILITY  OF. NATURAL  GAS  FOR  POWER PLANT  ELECTRICAL  GENERATION,




20   AND THE  GRAPH AT  THE  BOTTOM  SHOWS THE  INCREASING REQUIREMENTS




21   FOR NATURAL GAS --  FOR  RESIDUAL FUEL OIL,  LOW-SULPHUR




22   RESIDUAL  FUEL OIL AS  NATURAL GAS PHASES  OUT.




23                THIS  HAS  BEEN TALKED ABOUT  FREQUENTLY  IN  THE




.24   NEWSPAPERS NOW.   I  DON'T  THINK  THERE NEEDS TO  BE ANY  FURTHER




25   DISCUSSION OF  THAT.   THE  CURRENT SUPPLY  OF LOW-SULPHUR  FUEL

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                                                                 27
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 OIL IS IN SHORT  SUPPLY.





             CURRENTLY, SAN  DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC IS SUPPLIED




 FROM TWO REFINERIES.  ONE  IS  IN HAWAII.  ONE  BELONGS TO




 PACIFIC RESOURCES,  ONE OF  THE  JOINT VENTURERS  IN THIS MACARIO




 OPERATION.  THE  OTHER ONE  BELONGS TO TOSORO  UP IN ALASKA.




 BOTH OF THOSE  REFINERIES OPERATE ON LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE.




             I'M  SURE YOU CAN'T SEE THAT SLIDE  OVER THERE,




 BUT WHAT WE'RE ATTEMPTING  TO  DEMONSTRATE  IS  THAT THE




 REFINERIES THAT  ARE IN EXISTENCE NOW PRODUCE  LOW-SULPHUR




 FUELS FROM LOW-SULPHUR CRUDES..  LOW-SULPHUR  CRUDES AMOUNT




 TO  SOMETHING LIKE 14 PERCENT  OF THE WORLD'S  SUPPLY OF CRUDE.




 HAS A LOW-SULPHUR CONTENT.   IF YOU COULD SEE  THAT SLIDE,




 YOU WOULD SEE  THAT  U.  S. REFINERIES PROCESS  -- OR THE CRUDES




 THAT ARE USED  BY U.  S. REFINERIES ARE  63 PERCENT LOW-SULPHUR




 CRUDES.  IN OTHER WORDS, WE ARE PROCESSING MOST OF OUR




 PRODUCTS ONLY  FROM  A LIMITED  PORTION OF OUR  CRUDE SUPPLY.




             IN ORDER TO REMEDY THIS SITUATION  AS WE COME TO




 A CRUDE SHORTAGE SITUATION  IN  THE WORLD, WE  HAVE TO GO TO




 A NEW KIND OF  REFINERY.  OUR  REFINERY  IN HAWAII,  THE HAWAIIAN




 INDEPENDENT REFINERY,  AND ALSO THE REFINERY  IN ALASKA, DO NOT




 HAVE FACILITIES  TO  DESULPHURIZE CRUDE  OILS.   THE ALASKAN




 CRUDE, FOR EXAMPLE,  THAT WAS  FOUND IN  THE  ALASKA NORTH SLOPE




 IS  NOT A LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE.   IT HAS A  SULPHUR  CONTENT IN THE




.VICINITY OF ONE  PERCENT.




             THE  NEW DESULPHURIZING TYPE OF REFINERY THAT WE

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25
 PROPOSE FOR HERE,  THE SCHEME  IS  SHOWN ON THIS  DIAGRAM.




 BASICALLY, IT'S  A  REFINERY VERY  SIMILAR TO WHAT  WE HAVE  IN




 HAWAII  EXCEPT WE HAVE ADDED DESULPHURIZATI ON  UNITS IN WHICH




 WE  CAN  ACTUALLY  REMOVE THE SULPHUR FROM THE  PRODUCTS.  THESE




 NEW FACILITIES ARE NOT SIMPLE.   THEY ARE EXTENSIVE.  THEY




 ARE NOT ALTOGETHER NEW.  THERE  ARE NEW UNITS  OF  THIS TYPE




•BUILT.   THERE  IS A COMPLETE UNIT OF THIS TYPE BUILT AND




 OPERATING.  IN JAPAN.   THERE  IS ONE BEING BUILT IN LOS ANGELES




 BY  STANDARD OIL  OF CALIFORNIA TO SUPPLY THE  LOS  ANGELES  AREA.




 BUT THEY ARE RELATIVELY NEW  IN  THE REFINERY  SCENE.




             THIS IS  NOT A TYPICAL REFINERY  BY ANY STRETCH




 OF  THE  IMAGINATION.   TYPICALLY,  A U. S. REFINERY IS BUILT  TO




 MAKE GASOLINE.   ABOUT 50 PERCENT OF  ITS PRODUCT  COMES OUT  IN




 GASOLINE,  MUCH  OF THE REST COMES OUT  IN DIESEL  OIL, AND THE




 LITTLE  BIT THAT  COMES OUT AT  THE BOTTOM USUALLY  HAS A




 HIGH-SULPHUR CONTENT, AND THEY  USE IT  FOR  BUNKER FUEL IN




 SHIPS.   AND  IF THEY  CAN'T FIND ENOUGH  SHIPS  TO TAKE THE




 STUFF AWAY, THEN THEY COKE  IT,  TURN  IT  INTO  COKE.  MOST  OF




 THE REFINERIES UP  IN LOS ANGELES, FOR  EXAMPLE, HAVE THE




 ABILITY TO TURN  THE  RESIDUAL  INTO COKE.   IT  IS ONLY A FEW-




 REFINERIES THAT  HAVE AVAILABLE  OR MAKE AVAILABLE LOW-SULPHUR




 FUEL THAT  CAN  MAKE THE LOW-SULPHUR OIL THAT  WE USE IN OUR




 UTILITIES  TODAY.




             WHAT I'M SAYING  IS  WE NEED NEW  FACILITIES AND




 WE  THINK THOSE NEW FACILITIES SHOULD BE BUILT WHERE THE  LOAD

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                                                                29
 1   IS.   IN THIS  CASE,  IN SAN  DIEGO.   NOW, WE'RE  PROPOSING THIS




 2   REFINERY BE BUILT IN SAN DIEGO TO SERVE THE  SAN DIEGO MARKET.




 3   THE SITE SELECTED,  AS SHOWN  IN THIS PHOTO  --  JANE MAYBE CAN




 4   POINT OUT  THE ACTUAL SITE.   THIS  IS AN 855-ACRE SITE THAT




 5   BELONGS TO  THE JAPATUL   CORPORAT1 ON, A SUBSIDIARY OF SAN




 6   DIEGO GAS  £ ELECTRIC.  WE  PROPOSE TO USE  THE  CENTER 300 ACRES




 7   OF THAT FOR OUR REFINERY.   THAT'S IN A CA-NYON AREA WHICH  IS




 8   NOT VISIBLE FROM ANY OF  THE  SURROUNDING ROADS.   THERE  IS  A




 9   SKETCH THERE  WHICH SHOWS WHY WE CHOSE THIS SITE.  CERTAINLY




10  .CARLSBAD DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE REFINERY CENTER OF THE WORLD  --




]|   THAT'S UPSIDE DOWN OR BACKWARDS OR SOMETHING.   IT LOOKS LIKE




12   IT'S UPSIDE DOWN.  MAYBE  IT  ISN'T.   1 GUESS  IT  ISN'T.   I'M




13   UPSIDE DOWN,  I  GUESS.




14               THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS WHY  CARLSBAD WAS  CHOSEN.




15   IT'S A VERY GOOD LOCATION  FOR A REFINERY.   IN  FACT, WE




16   SEARCHED UP AND DOWN THE  COAST.  WE  SUPPLY OTHER UTILITIES




17   BESIDES SAN DIEGO GAS &  ELECTRIC, AND WE  SEARCHED FOR  OTHER




18   REFINERY SITES UP AND DOWN THE COAST, AND THIS,  I CAN  SAY,




19   IS THE BEST REFINERY SITE  WE FOUND.




20                FIRST, YOU HAVE  A MOORING OFFSHORE  OF THE  ENCINA




21   POWER PLANT WHICH WILL TAKE  A TANKER  70-  TO 80,000 DEAD




22   WEIGHT TON CAPACITY.  THERE'S NO MOORINGS  SOUTH OF




23   HUNTINGTON BEACH UP  IN LOS ANGELES NOR NORTH OF ROSARITA




24   BEACH WHICH WILL TAKE A  SHIP OF THAT  SIZE.  YOU NEED A  SHIP




25   OF ABOUT THAT SIZE  IN ORDER TO SUPPLY A  REFINERY THE' SI ZE

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                                                                 30
 1   WE NEED  TO  BUILD.




 2                SECONDLY,  THE  ENCINA POWER  PLANT IS RIGHT THERE,




 3   AND  IT  IS ONE OF THE  TWO  BIGGEST USERS  OF  RESIDUAL FUEL  IN




 4   SAN  DIEGO COUNTY.  THE  OTHER USER  IS  THE  SOUTH BAY POWER




 5   PLANT AND,  OF COURSE,  IT  DOESN'T HAVE  THE  OFF-SHORE MOORING.




 6   RIGHT NOW THE FUEL OIL  THAT COMES  IN  FROM  THE HAWAIIAN




 7   INDEPENDENT REFINERY  IN HAWAII   IS  DELIVERED IN 70- TO 80,000




 8   DEAD-WEIGHT TANKERS AT  THE ENCINA  MOORING.   THE OIL IS  PUT




 9   ASHORE,  AND WHAT IS NEEDED DOWN AT SOUTH  BAY IS TRANSFERRED




10   BY SAN  DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC BY  BARGE  DOWN  TO SOUTH BAY.




11                IN ADDITION TO THOSE TWO  FEATURES THERE, WHICH




12   MEANS YOU HAVE A MARKET FOR A LARGE PORTION OF THE FUEL




13   RIGHT ADJACENT TO THE SITE, THERE'S THE SAN DIEGO  PIPELINE




14   WHICH RUNS  IN EL CAMINO REAL, THE  DASH-ED  LINE.  THIS  IS A




15   CLEAN PRODUCTS PIPELINE WHICH MOVES FUEL   FROM THE LOS




16   ANGELES  REFINERIES TO SAN DIEGO.   THIS  CARRIES ALL YOUR




17   GASOLINES AND JET FUELS DOWN TO THE TERMINAL IN MISSION




18   VALLEY  FROM WHICH IT'S  DISPENSED.




19                IN ADDITION TO THAT, THERE'S  A NATURAL GAS




20   PIPELINE, A 30-INCH NATURAL GAS PIPELINE.   THIS IS THE




21   PRIMARY  TRANSMISSION  LINE THAT  BRINGS THE  GAS FROM THE




22   LOS  ANGELES AREA WHICH, OF COURSE, ORIGINALLY COMES FROM




23   TEXAS,  OKLAHOMA  INTO  THE  SAN DIEGO AREA.   THIS MEANS THAT




24   WE CAN  INJECT BOTH OUR  DISTILLATE  PRODUCTS TO GET  THEM  DOWN




25  .TO SAN  DIEGO AND OUR  NATURAL GAS INTO THOSE TWO PIPELINES.

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                                                                31
 1   AGAIN, IF WE WERE  DOWN ON THE  OTHER SIDE OF SAN  DJEGO,  IF




 2   WE WERE SOUTH  OF  SAN DIEGO, WE  WOULD HAVE TO BUILD  NEW




 3   PIPELINES BACK UP  INTO SAN  DIEGO.




 4                IN ADDITION TO  THOSE  FEATURES, THE  SITE ITSELF




 5   IS ISOLATED.   THERE'S AN 855-ACRE  PARCEL THAT'S  OWNED BY




 6   SAN DIEGO GAS  £ ELECTRIC.   IT'S SHIELDED BY HILLS ON EITHER




 1   SIDE SO IT  CAN'T  BE SEEN FROM  THE  LOCAL AREA.   THERE'S  AN




 8   AIRPORT THERE  WHICH PUTS A  NOISE  IMPACT ON THE  LOCAL PROPERTY




 9   AND SO FORTH.




10                LET ME GO ON TO THE EMISSIONS.  YOU CAN TURN




11   THAT OFF.   THE EMISSIONS ESTIMATE  ARE BASED UPON THE PROCESS




12   SCHEME THAT I  HAVE DESCRIBED,  WHICH  IS  A  FUEL  OIL REFINERY,




13   NOT A GASOLINE REFINERY.   THE  EMISSIONS ARE  LARGELY RELATED




14   TO THE FUEL SUPPLY TO THE  REFINERY  ITSELF,  SINCE THE




15   EMISSIONS ARE  BASICALLY  FLUE  GASES WHICH  ARE  THE RESULT  OF




16   ANY COMBUSTION OPERATION.   WE  ASSUME  IN OUR  CALCULATIONS




17   WE WOULD  USE THE SAME - LOW-SULPHUR  FUEL  OIL  THAT WE WOULD




18   SUPPLY TO SAN  DIEGO  GAS  &  ELECTRIC,  THAT  BEING THE HIGHEST




19   SULPHUR CONTENT ALLOWED  BY  THE LAW  IN --  OR  THE APCD REGULA-




20   TIONS  IN  SAN DIEGO.




21                WE ALSO  BASE  THOSE CALCULATIONS,  OF COURSE,  ON




22   EMISSION  FACTORS WHICH ARE  TAKEN FROM EPA REGULATIONS.   I




23   THINK  IT'S  INTERESTING TO  NOTE THAT  THOSE  EPA MANUALS,  I




24   SHOULD HAVE SAID,  THOSE  EPA MANUALS  ARE BASED UPON DATA




25   THAT  WAS  GATHERED  ON  REFINERIES THAT WERE  BUILT  IN  1950  OR

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                                                                 32
 1   WERE  IN  OPERATION  IN  1957  AND '58.  .IN  OTHER WORDS, THE




 2   STUDIES  ON  WHICH THESE  EMISSION FACTORS  ARE  BASED WERE DONE




 I   IN 1957,  '58,  ON EXISTING  REFINERIES  IN  LOS  ANGELES, WHICH




 4   MEANS THE  REFINERIES  THEMSELVES MAY BE  40  TO 50 YEARS OLD




 5   AT THIS  POINT.




 6                NOW, WE HAD TO DEPART FROM  THAT, OF COURSE,




 7   IN CERTAIN  CASES WHERE  WE  HAD PROCESSES  THAT ARE NOT --  WERE




 8   NOT  IN  EXISTENCE AT THAT TIME.  BUT,  BASICALLY, THE EMISSION




 9   FACTORS  THAT WE'RE USING ARE BASED  ON THE  TECHNOLOGY THAT




10   WAS  AVAILABLE  20 TO 30  YEARS AGO.   THEREFORE,  IT'S VERY




11   CONSERVATIVE.




12                WE  RECOGNIZE THAT THE AIR QUALITY  WOULD BE A




13.   MOST IMPORTANT  ISSUE,  AND WE ENGAGED  A CONSULTANT, METEOROLOGY




14   RESEARCH,  INCORPORATED, FROM PASADENA TO DO OUR METEOROLOGICAL




15   WORK.   IN  THAT  WE  CONDUCTED SOME  THREE  YEARS OF METEOROLOGICAL




16   DATA FROM  THE PALOMAR AIRPORT.




17                WE  CONDUCTED RADIOSONDE AND. INSTRUMENTED  AIRCRAFT




18   STUDIES.   WE HAD SOME 29 FLIGHTS  OUT  OF PALOMAR AIRPORT




19   TRYING  TO  CHASE DOWN  THE PLUME  FROM THE ENC1NA POWER  PLANT




20   AND  MEASURE THE  INVERSION HEIGHTS AND HOW THEY VARIED




21   THROUGHOUT THE  DAY AND THIS SORT  OF THING.




22                WE  SET OUT A NETWORK  OF SULPHATION PLATES  TO




23   MEASURE THE EXISTING  LEVELS OF  SULPHUR D-I OX I DE IN  THE  AIR.




24   WE ALSO HAD OUR CONSULTANT CONDUCT  EXTENSIVE COMPUTER




25   ANALYSIS OF THIS DATA TO DETERMINE  THE EFFECT  OF  THE  PROJECT

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 ]   ON AMBIENT AIR CONCENTRATIONS.



 2             .  OUR CONSULTANT CONCLUDED  THAT  THE  PROJECT  WOULD



 3,   NOT VIOLATE ANY OF THE AIR QUALITY  STANDARDS,  AND  IT'S OUR



 4   UNDERSTANDING THAT THE EPA BY  INDEPENDENT  ANALYSIS  HAS COME



 5   TO THIS SAME CONCLUSION.  THE  CONCLUSION  IS  WE WON'T  VIOLATE



 6   THE EMISSIONS STANDARDS, WE WON'T  VIOLATE  THE  AMBIENT  'AIR



 7   QUALITY STANDARDS, AND WE WON'T  VIOLATE  THE  SIGNIFICANT



 8   DETERIORATION STANDARDS.  AND  WITH  THIS  CONFIRMATION,  WE



 9   DON'T SEE'ANY REASON WHY THE AUTHORITY  TO  CONSTRUCT PERMIT



10   SHOULD NOT BE ISSUED.



11               THANK YOU.-



12              (APPLAUSE)



13               CHAIRMAN:   THANK  YOU,  MR. BEAN.



14               I THINK MR.  COVINGTON  HAS" SOME QUESTIONS.



15               MR. COVINGTON:  MR.  BEAN, AS YOU ARE AWARE,



16   WE HAVE HAD TO MAKE CERTAIN ASSUMPTIONS IN CARRYING OUT OUR



17   ANALYSES.   I'M GOING TO  ASK ESPECIALLY  AS  TO THE USE OF



18   THE PRODUCT, THE  CLEAN  FUELS.   AND IN THAT CONTEXT, 1  WOULD



19   LIKE TO EXPLORE TWO OR  THREE  ISSUES WITH YOU.



20               WHAT  CONTRACTUAL  ARRANGEMENTS  NOW EXIST WITH



21   RESPECT TO THE ULTIMATE  USE OF THE PRODUCT?



22               MR. BEAN:   PACIFIC RESOURCES IS A SUPPLIER TO



23   SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC.   AND AS A SUPPLIER THEY HAVE



24   A.LONG-RANGE CONTRACT  TO SUPPLY.



25               MR. COVINGTON:  WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "LONG RANGE"?

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 1               MR.  BEAN:   SOMETHING ON THE  ORDER OF FIVE TO




 2  TEN YEARS  TO SUPPLY.




 3               MR.  COVINGTON:   HOW MUCH AND OF WHAT KIND OF




 4  PRODUCT?




 5    .           MR.  BEAN:   BASICALLY RESIDUAL FUEL OIL.  AND




 6  THE TIME  FRAME WE ARE  TALKING ABOUT HAVING THIS REFINERY




 7  COMPLETE,  OUR CONTRACT CALLS FOR SOMETHING ON THE ORDER  OR




 8  29- TO  30,000 BARRELS  A DAY OF RESIDUAL  FUEL.  THAT'S MY




 9  RECOLLECTION.  THAT  CAN BE  TRANSFERRED TO THIS REFINERY.




]0  ASIDE  FROM THAT, WE  HAVE NO REFINERY,  WE HAVE NO PERMITS,




n   WE HAVE NO PRODUCTS, AND WE CAN'T  CONTRACT TO SELL  SOMETHING




12  WE DON' T  HAVE .




13                MR.  COVINGTON:   I WANTED  TO  GET  INTO IT AS  FAR




14  AS AT  LEAST THE CORPORATE THINKING HAS GONE  SO WE  HAVE  SOME




15   INDICATION OF THE VALIDITY  OF OUR  ASSUMPTION.




16               MR.  BEAN:  I MIGHT ADD  ON  THAT:   THE MARKET




17   ANALYSIS  1S DONE TO  SUPPLY  THE SAN DIEGO MARKET.   THAT'S




]g   THE REASON THAT WE'RE  BUILDING THE REFINERY  IN THE  SAN  DIEGO




19   AREA.   THERE'S NO SIGNIFICANT MEANS  OF TRANSFERRING PRODUCTS




20   OUT OF  THE SAN DIEGO AREA.    IT'S NOT  LIKE LOS ANGELES,  FOR




2i   EXAMPLE,  WHERE YOU  HAVE A DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, WHERE YOU




22   COULD  MOVE PRODUCTS  OUT.  WE OBVIOUSLY  INTEND TO SUPPLY  THE




23   SAN DIEGO MARKET.   HOWEVER,  IN A FREE  ECONOMY YOU  CAN'T  --




24  UNTIL  YOU HAVE A CONTRACT SIGNED YOU  CAN'T SAY WHAT YOU'RE




25  GOING  TO  DO EXACTLY.

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                                                             35
                                                            	1
            MR.  COV1NGTON:  GOING A LITTLE BIT FURTHER:
BECAUSE OF THE ROLE THAT THE FEDERAL ENERGY  ADMINISTRATION
PLAYS WITH RESPECT TO THE ALLOCATION OF CRUDE, HAVE YOU
ENGAGED IN ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH THEM?  AND WHAT  GUIDANCE
OR ADVICE HAVE YOU RECEIVED FROM THEM AS  TO  THE  LIKELIHOOD
OF ALLOCATION OF CRUDE FOR PURPOSES OF PRODUCING SYNTHETIC
GAS?
            MR.  BEAN:  WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE  WOULDN'T USE
CRUDE TO PRODUCE OUR SYNTHETIC GAS.  WE  PRODUCE  NAPTHA.   AND
AS  I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE,  THE ALLOCATION PROGRAM IS  A VERY
DIFFICULT AND VERY COMPLICATED SUBJECT.   AS  A  MATTER  OF FACT,
I'M SURE YOU'RE ALSO AWARE THE WHOLE ALLOCATION  ACTS  RUNS
OUT  IN ONE WEEK, AND THE  PRESIDENT  SAYS  HE'S GOING TO VETO
IT, SO 1 REALLY THINK --  I DON'T  REALLY  KNOW WHAT TO  SAY
ABOUT THAT.  WE HAVE SOME  PRELIMINARY  THOUGHTS ON FUEL STOCK
ALLOCATION.  WE THINK THIS  IS  THE  BEST  USE FOR NAPTHA IN THIS
AREA.  WE HAVE HAD SOME  PRELIMINARY  TALKS WITH VARIOUS FEA
OFFICIALS.  WE HAVE  NOTHING  FIRM.
            THE USES  FOR  NAPTHA  GENERALLY BOIL DOWN TO JP't,
WHICH  IS AN AIR FORCE JET FUEL,  WHICH  WE HAVE NO USE   FOR
HERE  IN  SAN DIEGO  COUNTY,  GASOLINE,  WHICH. IS THE LOWEST
PRIORITY  PRODUCT  AS  FAR  AS  THE FEA IS  CONCERNED.  AS   FAR
AS  THE  FEA  PRODUCTION OF GASOLINE,  IT  IS THE LOWEST PRIORITY
THING  YOU  CAN DO  WITH NAPTHA.   ANOTHER USE FOR  IT WOULD BE
PETROCHEMICAL MANUFACTURE,  WHICH WE HAVE NO SIGNIFICANT

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  I  MARKET  HERE IN SAN  DIEGO.   THIS LEAVES. US  BASICALLY WITH




  2  SYNTHETIC  GAS.  WE  THINK THERE IS A  SIGNIFICANT MARKET AND




  3  A GOOD  USE FOR IT FOR  THAT PURPOSE.




  4               MR. COV1NGTON:  DO YOU HAVE ANY PRELIMINARY  FEEL




  5  FROM  THE  STATE PUBLIC  UTILITIES COMMISSION ABOUT THE ALLOCATION




  6  OF  THAT SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT WOULD BE PRODUCED?




  i               MR. BEAN:   IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT  THE  PUBLIC




  8  UTILITIES  COMMISSION  DOES NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO ALLOCATE




^9  THAT  GAS  OUTSIDE OF THE SAN DIEGO AREA AT THIS TIME.




 10               MR. COVINGTON-  CAN YOU  COMMENT ON OR .ELABORATE




 11  OR  CLARIFY THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE  EARLIER SPEAKER, MR.




 12  SCHULTZ,  WITH REGARD  TO HIS CONCERN  THAT THE PRESENCE  OF




 13  THE REFINERY WOULD  ATTRACT  SATELLITE  INDUSTRIES?   DO  YOU




 14  HAVE  ANY  INSIGHT  INTO  THAT ISSUE?




 15               MR. BEAN:   WELL,  I THINK,  FIRST OF ALL,  WE HAVE




 16  TO  RECOGNIZE THIS  IS  A DIFFERENT KIND  OF A REFINERY  THAN




 17  A NORMAL  L.A.-TYPE  REFINERY,  FOR EXAMPLE.  WE'RE TALKING




 18  ABOUT A FUEL OIL REFINERY THAT IS DESIGNED TO SUPPLY  UTILITY




 19  FUELS,  BASICALLY.   THAT'S OUR PRIMARY  PRODUCT,  IS  UTILITY




 20  FUELS.   THIS HAS BEEN  OUR EXPERIENCE IN HAWAII, WHERE  WE




 21  BUILT --  THERE THE  REFINERY WAS BUILT  BY THE HONOLULU  GAS




 22  COMPANY,  WHICH LATER  GREW INTO PACIFIC RESOURCES.   AND THERE




 23   IT  SUPPLIES  ITS PRODUCT TO UTILITIES.   IN FACT,  IT IS  THE




 24  REFINERY  THAT SUPPLIES THE MAJOR PORTION OF FUEL FOR  SAN




 25  DIEGO ITSELF.  FROM THAT ASPECT, THESE FUELS AREN'T  SUITABLE
                                                                 	j

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                                                                 37
 1  FOR PERHAPS  OTHER USES.                                         j
                                                                     (
                                                                     i


 2               AS FAR AS OTHER INDUSTRIES,  FUEL-USING INDUSTRIES,)


                                                                     I

 3  SPROUTING  UP,  FOR EXAMPLE,  IN THE VICINITY OF THE REFINERY,




 4  1  DON'T  REALLY -- WE'RE  NOT PLANNING  ON  THAT.  CERTAINLY




 5  THE EPA  AND  THE LOCAL ZONING AUTHORITIES WOULD HAVE AUTHORITY




 6  OVER THAT.   THERE IS A  FUEL PIPELINE  THAT GOES RIGHT  BY  THAT




 7  PROPERTY NOW,  HAULING OVER  50,000 BARRELS A DAY OF LIGHT




 8  PRODUCTS.   IF  SOMEBODY  WANTED TO BUILD  A FUEL-USING  INDUSTRY,




 9.  THEY COULD HAVE BUILT  IT A  LONG TIME  AGO.




10               MR. COVINGTON:   WHAT ARE  THE PROSPECTS FOR




|]   SIGNIFICANT  EXPANSION OF THE REFINERY CAPACITY OR CHANGE  IN




12  THE CHARACTERISTICS OF  THE  OUTPUT GIVEN YOUR PRESENT  SITE




j3   LOCATION AND SO FORTH?




14               MR. BEAN:   WELL, THE SITE IS B-l G ENOUGH  TO




15  SUPPORT  EXPANSION.  HOWEVER, OUR VIEW OF THIS AT  THIS TIME




16  IS THAT  OIL  IS IN THE POSITION OF HOLDING — MEETING  OUR




17   ENERGY  REQUIREMENTS  IN  A RELATIVELY  SHORT TIME.   BY  THAT




18  I  MEAN  THROUGH THE END  OF THE CENTURY,  PERHAPS.   IN  THAT




19   LIGHT,  WE  DON'T -- WE SEE OIL PEEKING OUT AS NUCLEAR  PLANTS




20  AND OTHER  TYPES OF FACILITIES, PERHAPS,  COME ON THAT  CAN




21   CARRY  THIS LOAD.  BASICALLY HAVING  NO NATIONAL ENERGY POLICY,




22  IT'S HARD  TO ANSWER  THAT QUESTION,  AS WE SEE  IT.  OIL WILL




23  HAVE TO PEAK OUT.   IN THAT  RESPECT,  WE  DON'T SEE  THIS AS




24  AN EXPANDING REFINERY.




25               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK  YOU, MR. BEAN.  •

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                                                                 38
 1                1  WILL NOW  CALL ON MR. GEORGE W.  JONES REPRE-





 2   SENT1NG  HIMSELF.




 3                MR. JONES:   AS A COINCIDENCE, YOU HAVE THE




 4   SAME  THING 1  HAVE AS  A  MIDDLE NAME,  WALKER.  BUT WELCOME.




 5            'I'M JUST  AN AVERAGE PEON,  BUT THERE'S A  LOT OF




 6   THINGS  THAT ARE SAID  PRO AND CON  ON,  THIS OIL REFINERY.   I'M




 7   NOT  REALLY ACCUSTOMED TO MAKING PUBLIC SPEECHES AND  WHAT




 8   HAVE  YOU,  BUT MY VIEW OF THE THING  IS  THERE  IS -- WELL, I'M




 9   A PIPEFITTER WITH THE PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS LOCAL,  AND




10   I'VE  SAT DOWN THERE ON  THE OUT-OF-WORK LIST  FOR A PERIOD OF




11   FOUR  MONTHS LAST YEAR,  AND THERE'S BEEN  UPWARDS OF  200  MEN




12   OUT  OF  WORK.   THERE'S STILL PROBABLY 150 OF  THOSE MEN STILL




13   WAITING  FOR A JOB.




H                IF  EVERYBODY'S GOT MONEY,  I   WOULD  BE  GLAD,   IT




15   WOULD BE GOOD,  BUT  THERE'S A LOT  OF  PEOPLE THAT NEED WORK.




16   AND  AS  LONG AS  THIS  ENVIRONMENTAL THING  THAT YOU  HAVE HERE




17   IS WITHIN THE  REALM  OF YOUR LUNGS,  I MEAN, FOR THE  FUTURE,




18   I THINK IT'S GOOD.




19                BACK  IN  MY DAY--I'M  A LITTLE OLDER THAN  A LOT




20   OF THESE PEOPLE  IN  HERE.   I CAME  FROM ST.  LOUIS.   IN THE




21   AFTERNOON  IT WOULD  BE SO  DARK  YOU COULDN'T HARDLY SEE.




22   THAT'S  WHEN THEY HAD  SMOKELESS  COAL.  THE  ENVIRONMENTAL




23   THING HAS COME  A  LONG WAYS  FROM  THEN.   A LOT OF  THESE PEOPLE




24   THINK IT'S BAD  IF  YOU PUT  A LITTLE GAS OR  SOMETHING  OUT OF




25   THEIR EXHAUST,  BUT  THEN YOU COULD HARDLY BREATHE,  SO I   THINK

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                                                                 39
 1   THE PEOPLE  WILL PROGRESS  TO  THE THING THAT  IS  FOR THE




 2   BETTER OF MANKIND, AND  I  THINK THAT ONE  OF  THE THINGS A




 3   PERSON HAS  TO LOOK AT,  TOO,  IS THAT YOU  HAVE  TO WORK, YOU




 4   HAVE TO  MAKE -- WHAT  IF YOU  HAVE THE CLEANEST  LUNGS  IN THE




 5   WORLD AND YOU HAVE NOTHING IN YOUR STOMACH?




 6               (APPLAUSE)




 7                I THINK YOU PEOPLE HAVE DONE A  GOOD JOB  AND  IT'S




 8   GOOD, BUT THERE IS SOME THINGS THAT NEED HELP, TOO.   1 MEAN,




 9   PEOPLE CAN  GO OVERBOARD ONE  WAY OR THE  OTHER.   WELL,  I CAN




10   SEE THE  PEOPLE THAT HAVE LIVED  IN THE  AREA  --  NATURALLY  A




]]   LOT OF THEM ARE RETIRED PEOPLE AND THEY  DON'T CARE  IF ANYONE




12   WORKS OR DON'T (CRIES  OF BOO). ACTUALLY,  A LOT OF  PEOPLE  FEEL




13   THAT WAY.




14                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  LADIES  AND GENTLEMEN,  MAY  I




15   INTERRUPT HERE?   WE CAME DOWN HERE  FROM SAN FRANCISCO TO




16   HEAR ALL OF YOU.  WE'RE QUITE SURE  EVERYONE FEELS  VERY




17   STRONGLY.   WE WOULD APPRECIATE  IF YOU WOULD KEEP  THE




18   DEMONSTRATIONS TO A MINIMUM.  WE  UNDERSTAND HOW  YOU FEEL.




19   WE  UNDERSTAND EVERYONE FEELS  STRONGLY.   WE ASSUMED THAT.




20                MR. JONES:   I'M GLAD  THEY FEEL THAT  WAY.  THAT'S




21   ALL  I HAVE  TO SAY.  THANK YOU.




22               (APPLAUSE)




23                 CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   1  NOW  CALL ON MR.  RICH




24   SOMMERVILLE.




25                 MR. SOMMERVILLE:  MY  NAME IS.RICH  SOMMERVILLE.

-------
 1   1 AM WITH  THE  SAN DIEGO   AIR POLLUTION  CONTROL DISTRICT.




 2               WE HAVE  A  TRANSPARENCY, AND  I  WILL GIVE THE




 3   CHAIR A  COPY OF THAT.




 4               I  HAVE ALL SORTS OF LITTLE  NOTES TRYING TO




 5   RESPOND  TO CERTAIN THINGS THAT CAME UP  DURING THE TESTIMONY.




 6   I'LL TRY TO KEEP  IT  BRIEF.




 7               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THAT MICROPHONE IS PRETTY




 8   DIRECTIONAL.  YOU HAVE TO TALK RIGHT  INTO IT.




 9               MR. SOMMERVILLE:  LET'S DO  IT THIS WAY, THEN..




JO               AS A  LITTLE BACKGROUND, THE  EPA HAS  INDICATED




jl    THAT THE REASON THEY'RE HERE IS BECAUSE  THE LOCAL DISTRICTS




12   IN  THE  STATE OF CALIFORNIA WERE UNABLE  TO COME UP WITH




13    RULES AND  REGULATIONS  THAT WOULD  APPLY  TO THE EVALUATION OF




14   SOURCES, NEW SOURCES,  AS TO THEIR IMPACT ON THE  AIR QUALITY.




15    THAT WAS FURTHER  REFINED TO SAY THAT  THEY WERE INADEQUATE.




16                WHAT  REALLY HAPPENED  IS THAT WE DO HAVE RULES




17    AND REGULATIONS AS THEY APPLY TO  NEW  SOURCES THAT COME  INTO




18    THIS REGION AND WE DO  EVALUATE THE AIR  QUALITY IMPACT.   OUR




19    CONCERN  ABOUT OUR REGULATIONS IS  THAT THEY MAY BE VERY




20    STRICT.   THE REASON  WHY EPA DID NOT ACCEPT THOSE REGULATIONS




21    IS  THAT  WE DID NOT PUT INTO THEM  A PUBLIC REVIEW PERIOD.




22    THE PUBLIC REVIEW PERIOD  IS SOMETHING LIKE THEY  USE ON  AN




23    EfR.   1  THINK MANY OF  YOU ARE FAMILIAR  WITH THAT.   THIS  IS




24    INCONSISTENT WITH PRESENT PRACTICES  IN  AIR POLLUTION  CONTROL




25    LAW, AND SO WE DIDN'T  DO THAT.  THAT'S. WHY EPA IS DOWN  HERE

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 1   AS FAR AS  SAN DIEGO  IS  CONCERNED.  NOT  BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE




 2   A RULE, NOT  BECAUSE  OUR RULES ARE NOT ADEQUATE.  1  THINK




 3   MR. BEAN MIGHT TESTIFY  TO  THE POINT THAT  OUR RULES MAY  BE




 4   A LITTLE TOO ADEQUATE.   BUT,  INDEED, WE DI DN ' T .HAVE A  PUBLIC




 5   REVIEW COMMENT,  AND  THAT'S ALL.




 6                WITH THAT,  I WOULD LIKE TO  GO ON AND TALK  A




 7   LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING.   THIS AIR POLLUTION




 8   CONTROL DISTRICT HAS  BEEN  REVIEWING THE MACAR10 REFINERY




 9   FOR SOME TIME.  IN FACT,  I THINK  IF YOU WERE TO STACK  UP




10   ALL THE ANALYSIS THAT HAS  BEEN DONE ON  THE MACAR10 REFINERY,




11   YOU WOULD  FIND THIS  DISTRICT HAS  DONE  THE MOST ANALYSIS,  THE




12   MOST  DETAILED ANALYSIS, AND  I  THINK WE  ARE PRETTY WELL THE




13   MOST  KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE IMPACT  IN  THE LOCALITY  AND IN




14   THE REGION AND THE SPECIFIC  EMISSIONS  THAT ARE GOING  TO BE




15   EMITTED  FROM THAT  REFINERY.




16                 I'M NOT  HERE TODAY TO SAY  WE ARE  GOING  TO




17   APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE THAT REFINERY.   WE ARE  STILL  IN AN




18   ANALYSIS  PERIOD.   WE WON'T KNOW  WHAT  WE'RE GOING  TO-DO WITH




19   THE REFINERY, WHETHER WE'RE  GOING TO  APPROVE  IT  OR  DISAPPROVE




20   IT, UNTIL  OUR ANALYSIS IS  COMPLETE.   WE DON'T  FEEL  WE'RE




21   GOING.TO  KNOW ENOUGH UNTIL PROBABLY,  SAY, OCTOBER,  M I D-OCTOBE!f,




22   BEFORE  WE  CAN SAY  WHETHER  IT SHOULD  BE APPROVED  OR




23   DISAPPROVED  OR PERHAPS APPROVED  WITH  CERTAIN  CONDITIONS.




24   SO, THAT'S WHERE WE  ARE.  WE'RE  SIMPLY SAYING  THAT  AT THIS




25   POINT WE'RE  IN THE MIDST OF  OUR  ANALYSIS AND  WE  DON'T KNOW

-------
 1  ENOUGH, AND  TO THIS POINT WE HAVE DONE  MORE THAN ANYBODY  ELSE.




 2               WHAT WE HAVE  BEEN .HEARING  TODAY FROM THE  EPA  IS




 3  THAT THE  PRIMARY PROBLEM  WAS THREE  IMPACT AREAS.  ONE  IMPACT




 4  AREA WAS  THE LOCAL.  IMPACT,  THE DETERIORATION OF THE  AIR OUAL1 TJY




 5  IN THE LOCAL AREA.  THE OTHER ONE  IS  THE EMISSIONS  FROM




 6  THE REFINERY.   NEW  SOURCES  MUST USE  THE BEST AVAILABLE




 7  TECHNOLOGY TO REDUCE-  THOSE  EMISSIONS.   THERE IS NO  OTHER




 8  REASON TO ALLOW THEM  TO  BUILD.  YOU  MUST SAY, "HEY,  YOU KNOW,




 9  DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN."




10               THE OTHER ONE 1S.THE REGIONAL  IMPACT.   OF COURSE,




11   THERE'S A SYNERG1SM BETWEEN  THE REGIONAL IMPACT AND THE




12  LOCAL  IMPACT.   FOR  EXAMPLE,   IF REGIONALLY  THERE'S  ALL SORTS




13   OF SULPHUR GOING  INTO THE AIR OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS,  THAT'S




14  A BACKGROUND LEVEL  UPON  WHICH THE  LOCAL EMISSIONS  ARE GOING




15   TO BE  ADDED  TO.  SO,  IT  DEPENDS ON  WHAT HAPPENS  IN  THE




16   REGION, DOWN THE LINE,  TO A  CERTAIN  EXTENT,  LOCALLY.




17                SO, WE'RE REALLY  INVOLVED IN LOOKING AT THE




18   QUESTION  OF  WHAT CONSTITUTES MAXIMUM CONTROL TECHNOLOGY




19   AVAILABLE, WHAT ARE THE  EFFECTS ON  THE REGIONAL AIR QUALITY,




20   THE IMPACT ON LOCALIZED  AIR  QUALITY.   I SHOULD  SAY  WE HAVE




21   BEEN WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE  EPA.  OUR RESULTS VERY




22   OFTEN  COME  UP DIFFERENT,  BUT THEN,  AGAIN,  WE'RE WORKING




23   TOGETHER  TO  TRY TO  ALLEVIATE THAT.




24                THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT  REDUCTIONS POSSIBLE WE




25   HAVE FOUND  THROUGH  JUST  OUR  PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS BY DOING

-------
                                                                      1
 1   SOME FUEL  SWITCHING WITHIN A REFINERY.   AND WE HAVE  A  SLIDE




 2   HERE ON  THAT.   I  CAN'T  SEE THE SLIDE.   1  HOPE YOU  CAN.




 3                LET ME EXPLAIN IT, THEN,  THE REDUCTIONS  IN FUEL




 4   SWITCHING.   WHAT WE'RE  SIMPLY SAY^!S,  YOU KNOW,  THE  REFINERY




 5   USES ENERGY  JUST LIKE  ANYBODY ELSE  USES FUEL OIL,  FOR  EXAMPLE




 6   AS YOU  SEE  HERE,  THESE  ARE EMISSIONS  IN TONS PER DAY THAT




 7   ARE REALLY  ALL OF  THE  EMISSIONS  THAT  WE KNOW OF  TO DATE




 g   FROM THE REFINERY.   IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT TOTAL EMISSIONS.




 9   WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE  REFINERY AS  IT'S PRESENTLY  PROPOSED.




1Q                THEY'RE  GOING TO  USE  A HALF-PERCENT  RESIDUAL




n   FUEL OIL.   IN OTHER  WORDS, THEY'RE GOING TO  USE  .5 PERCENT




,2   FUEL OIL TO RUN THEIR  REFINERY.   WE HAVE SOME  LISTS HERE




,3   OFfiMISSIONS THAT  OCCUR WHEN  YOU DO THAT.  SULPHUR DIOXIDE,




,4   PARTICULATES, HYDROCARBONS, NITROGEN DIOXIDE,  AND CARBON




15   MONOXIDE.   THE HYDROCARBON PROBLEM HAS ALREADY BEEN




Ig   ADDRESSED BY THE EPA,  AND WE  DO  HAVE AN OXIDANT  PROBLEM




17   HERE,  THE PRECURSOR  OF WHICH  IS  HYDROCARBONS.   WE ARE




18   ALREADY SIGNIFICANTLY  EXCEEDING  THOSE STANDARDS, AND WE'RE




19   GOING  TO HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT  TIME ATTAINING  THEM.




20                ANOTHER  NOTE.  THE  FEDERAL AIR OUALITY STANDARDS




21   FOR  PARTICULATES,  HYDROCARBONS,  AND CARBON MONOXIDE-  ARE




22   ALL  CURRENTLY BEING  EXCEEDED.   ON THE  LIST HERE--AND THIS




23   IS  FOR EPA'S NOTES MORE  THAN  AMYTHIMG--WE  HAVE  FOUND THAT




24   THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT THE  EMISSION  STANDARDS FOR  LOSING




25   VAPORS THROUGH STORAGE TANKS  ARE NOT VERY  GOOD,  AND WE  THINK

-------
     THEY  CAN  BE REDUCED.   THERE 5S NEW  TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE,  AND '




  2  WE THINK  THE A.P.  42  EMISSION STANDARDS FOR THOSE ARE  NOT    '




  3  RIGHT.





                  NOW, ANOTHER THING THAT  THEY COULD DO IS  THEY




  5  COULD  USE,  INSTEAD OF FIVE-PERCENT  SULPHUR OR HALF-PERCENT




  6  SULPHUR --  I ALMOST GAVE BARNEY A HEART ATTACK.  I MISS




  7  DECIMAL POINTS.  AND  WHEN I  MEAN A  HALF PERCENT, EVERY ONCE




  8  IN A WHILE  1 SAY FIVE PERCENT, AND  IN  THIS BUSINESS  IT




  9  MAKES  A BIG DIFFERENCE,  AND MY ENGINEERS QUAKE.  WE  CAN  USE




 10  -1 DISTILLATE FUEL OIL.   IF YOU DO  THAT, YOU GET A NET




 11   DECREASE  IN CERTAIN EMISSIONS AND A  NET INCREASE IN  CERTAIN




 12   OTHERS.





 13                BUT LOOK  AT  THE  REDUCTIONS.   IN SULPHUR  DIOXIDE,




 14   YOU CAN REDUCE-THE EMISSIONS BY,  SAY,  80 PERCENT; FOR




 ,5   PARTICULATES,  SAY,  30  PERCENT.  THOSE  ARE  BIG NUMBERS.   YOU




 16   DO GET A, SAY,  FIVE -- SAY  A THREE  TO  FIVE TO SIX PERCENT




 17   INCREASE  IN HYDROCARBONS, NITROGEN DIOXIDE, AND CARBON




 18   MONOXIDE  IF YOU USE THE  .1  PERCENT DISTILLATE FUEL OIL,  OR




 19   DISTILLATE  OIL.   OF COURSE,  THE REFINERY IS MAKING THAT




20   STUFF, AND  WE  ARE JUST SAYING, "HEY, REFINERY,  WHY DON'T




21   WE USE SOME OF  YOUR OWN  PRODUCT."   IT  SHOULD BE PRETTY CHEAP.




22   NOW,  THAT GIVES US  AN  OVERALL REDUCTION IN THE  CATEGORIES




23 !  OF EMISSIONS  OF APPROXIMATELY 33  PERCENT,  AND THAT'S PRETTY




24   GOOD.




25                THE OTHER  THING  YOU CAN  DO  IS  USE NAPTHA.  THIS

-------
REFINERY  MAKES NAPTHA,  AND IT IS THEIR  BASIC ELEMENT OF WHICH j
                                                                 i

THEY PRODUCE  SNG, FOR  EXAMPLE.  THEY  CAN  PRODUCE OTHER THINGS.!


WE DON'T  HAVE VERY GOOD EMISSION FACTORS  AT THIS POINT FOR


NAPTHA.   WHEN YOU USE  NAPTHA, THE  EMISSION FACTORS  THAT WE


HAVE FOUND ARE INADEQUATE AND, THEREFORE, THOSE REPRESENTED


HERE ARE  WHAT WE FEEL  AT THIS POINT  TO  BE WORSE-CASE EMISSIONS


             IF YOU USE THOSE, YOU  SEE THAT YOUR PERCENT


REDUCTIONS ARE EVEN  BETTER.   SULPHUR DIOXIDE CAN BE  REDUCED


BY 86  PERCENT, PARTICULATES BY, SAY,  6fl PERCENT, HYDRO-


CARBONS  A NET REDUCTION OF VERY LITTLE, 5 PERCENT.   15  PERCEN


ON THE NITROGEN  DIOXIDE, 5 PERCENT,  SAY,  ON CARBON  MONOXIDE,


FOR A  TOTAL OF ABOUT 49, 50 PERCENT  REDUCTION  IN THE


EMISSIONS THAT WOULD BE GOING  INTO THE AIR  IF  WE ACCEPTED


THE CONTROL TECHNOLOGY AS THE  REFINERY HAD ORIGINALLY


PROPOSED.


             NOW,  IF  WE WANT  TO  GET REALLY DOWN TO  THE  NITTY


GRITTY,  WE CAN USE SOME OF THE  PRODUCT, THE FINAL  PRODUCT,


AND THAT IS THE  SYNTHETIC NATURAL  GAS.   SO, THE  REFINERY


IS SIMPLY USING  ITS  OWN FINAL  PRODUCT.   THERE  IS  SULPHUR


DIOXIDE -- WE GET,  SAY, A 95  TO  97 PERCENT  REDUCTION.   YOU'RE


ALMOST TOTALLY ELIMINATING THE  PROBLEM THAT MAY  OCCUR  WITH


SULPHUR DIOXIDE.   IF YOU  USE  THE  NATURAL  GAS,  THE  SYNTHETIC


NATURAL GAS,  AS  MADE BY THE  REFINERY.  OF COURSE,  THAT'S


THE1R  PRODUCT.   THEY WOULD LIKE  TO SELL  THAT  INSTEAD OF


USE  IT THEMSELVES.

-------
  i
 1                YOU GET A 90  PERCENT REDUCTION IN PART ICULATES.

 2   ESSENTIALLY,  YOU'RE USING NATURAL GAS,  WHICH IS THE  CLEANEST

 3   BURNING FUEL-AVAILABLE.   HYDROCARBONS,  80  PERCENT  REDUCTION,

 4   NITROGEN DIOXIDE, 39 PERCENT; CARBON  MONOXIDE,  17, FOR  A

 5   TOTAL OF 67  PERCENT.  SO, WE DO HAVE  A  RANGE OF THINGS  TO

 6   DO TO MITIGATE THE  IMPACT OF THIS REFINERY BEYOND  THAT  WHICH

 7   I  BELIEVE  EPA HAS CONSIDERED AND  1  KNOW THE  REFINERY HAS

 8   CONSIDERED.

 9                NOW, THE QUESTION  IS:   ARE  WE JUSTIFIED  IN  DOING

10   THIS?   FOR ONE PERSPECTIVE.,  THE  LAW REOUIRES A  MAXIMUM

11   CONTROL TECHNOLOGY.  WE FEEL THAT  THIS  REPRESENTS  A  MAXIMUM

12   CONTROL TECHNOLOGY.   IF YOU  WANT  TO TAKE  BEYOND THAT, ARE

13   WE JUSTIFIED  IN  DOING  IT FROM  AN  IMPACT ANALYSIS?   YOU HAVE

14   HEARD  EPA  SAY  THEY  FIND NO ADVERSE  IMPACT.   1  HAVE EVEN

15   HEARD  MACARIO  SAY  THAT  THEIR CONSULTANTS  FIND  NO ADVERSE

16   IMPACT.   WELL, WE  HAVE  ALSO  DONE  OUR ANALYSIS  ON THE LOCAL

17   AND  REGIONAL  IMPACT.    IN FACT,  1  THINK THE  STUDY  IS  ABOUT

IS   REITERATION NO.  17,  AND  WHAT WE'RE DOING  IS  CONTINUALLY

19   DOING  EVALUATIONS,  CONTINUALLY KNOWING MORE  ABOUT THE

20   REFINERY  AS OUR  ENGINEERS  GO THROUGH IT.   WE'RE CONTINUALLY

21   FINDING OUT USING  A LITTLE  DIFFERENT METEOROLOGIC CONDITIONS

22   WE  COME UP WITH  SOME RESULTS.  THE  RESULTS ARE VERY

23   INTERESTING.

24                WE HAVE LOOKED AT  THE  SYNERGISTIC EFFECT BETWEEN

25   THE  MACARIO  REFINERY AND THE .— AS  IT  NOW EXISTS  AND THE

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25
ENCINA  PLANT AS  IT  WOULD EXIST WITH  A TALL STACK.   NOW,  THE




TALL STACK  WAS RATHER INTERESTING.   THAT WAS ORIGINALLY PUT




ON THERE  TO REDUCE  THE GROUND  LEVEL  IMPACT OF  THAT INSTALLA-




TION, AND IT WILL  DO IT.  THE  ONLY  PROBLEM  IS:   OUR SIMULA-




TIONS  INDICATE THAT THE MACARIO  REFINERY  IS  LOCATED EXACTLY




WHERE THE PLUME  DESCENDS TO  THE  GROUND, SO YOU HAVE IN A




LOCALIZED AREA A MAXIMIZED  IMPACT FROM THE  ENCINA 5




INSTALLATION AND THE IMPACT  FROM THE MACARIO REFINERY, AND




OUR  RESULTS INDICATE THAT WITHOUT CONSIDERING  ANY BACKGROUND




THAT  MACARIO PLUS  ENCINA 5  IN  THE REGION  ON  A  24-HOUR




STANDARD GIVES YOU ABOUT 39  M1CROGRAMS PER  METER  CUBE, A




3-HOUR, 102, AND  A  1-HOUR, 230.  THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE





BACKGROUND.




             JUST FOR YOUR  INFORMATION,  THE  24-HOUR,  3-HOUR,




AND  1-HOUR  ARE  THE STANDARDS THAT ARE  SET BY THE  STATE.




24-HOUR  STANDARDS, 3-HOUR STANDARDS, AND  1-HOUR  STANDARDS




ARE  REPRESENTATIVE STANDARDS  IN TIMES  OF  AVERAGING  FEDERAL





STANDARDS  AND  CALIFORNIA STANDARDS.




             NOW, WHEN WE  LOOK AT THIS  -'-  NOW, YOU KNOW,  WE




CAN'T RELATE  MACARIO  TO TODAY.  NUMBER ONE, IT'S  NOT  HERE




TODAY.    IT'S  GOING  TO  BE  IN AROUND  '78 OR SO.   THE  FUELS




THAT YOU BURN  TODAY  ARE NOT GOING TO BE AVAILABLE IN  '78.




WE HAVE  A  LOT  OF NATURAL  GASES  BURNED  IN THESE  BOILERS




 TODAY.   THAT'S  GOING TO BE  CURTAILED IN ABOUT  '78.   WE WILL




 BE USING ALMOST ALL  HALF-PERCENT,  LOW-SULPHUR  FUEL.   SO,  YOU


-------
                                                                 48
                                                                     1
 1   HAVE TO  LOOK  AT WHAT'S  GOING TO HAPPEN  AROUND CIRCA  1978.

 2                WELL, SOME  OF THE THINGS  WE FIND IS THAT  THINGS

 3   DON'T  LOOK  TOO ROSY  ON  A LOCALIZED  IMPACT.  IT APPEARS  THAT

 4   WE ARE  LEAST  APPROACHING AND MAY  EXCEED THE 24-HOUR  CALIFORNIA

 5   THE STATE  STANDARD.   AND THAT'S  IN  A  LOCALIZED IMPACT.   ON

 6   THE REGION  WE SEE WHERE WE'RE APPROACHING THE FEDERAL

 7   STANDARD FOR S02 AND WE'RE NOT EXCEEDING OUR COMPUTER PROGRAM

 8   DON'T  SAY  YOU'RE GOING  TO ACTUALLY  EXCEED IT AT THIS  POINT.

 9   I  HAVE  TO  SAY THAT.   SO, IF  1 WAS A BUFF  FOR THE  REFINERY,

10   I  WOULD SAY OUR PROGRAM AND  OUR  CALCULATIONS DO NOT  SHOW

11   THAT WE  EXCEED  IT.

12                IN OTHER WORDS,  NUMBER ONE,  IT'S PRELIMINARY

13   AND, NUMBER TWO,  IT'S APPROACHING IT.  THAT'S WHAT  CONCERNS

14   ME, BECAUSE THESE  COMPUTER PROGRAMS ARE  LIKE THIS.  AND A

15   LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW  THAT  IT'S JUST A MACHINE, AND  YOU TRY

16   AND TELL IT TO  DO  THE BEST IT  CAN.   BUT  A LOT OF  US  DON'T

17   KNOW ALL ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING  IN THE ATMOSPHERE THESE

18   DAYS,  AND SO THESE  COMPUTER  PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE  TAKEN WITH

19   A LITTLE RESPONSIBILITY, AND 1  FEEL PERSONALLY  IF- ALL THE

20   CALCULATIONS ARE  POINTING  IN A  DIRECTION, THEN  YOU HAVE TO

21   WATCH  OUT.   NOT WHETHER  THEY SAY, YOU  KNOW,  THE  NUMBERS COME

22   OUT TO SIX DECIMAL POINTS.   THE  NUMBER  IS WRONG.   THE

23   QUESTION IS HOW  RIGHT OR HOW WRONG IS  IT.   SO,  BEWARE

24   COMPUTER PROGRAMS.

25                 IN  CONTRAST  TO EITHER MACARIO AND  IN  CONTRAST

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RIGHT NOW TO EPA,  WE THINK  THERE IS A  POTENTIAL FOR  SIGNI-




FICANTLY  IMPACTING AIR QUALITY IN THIS  REGION.  AND  THIS,




OF COURSE,  IS A  VER.Y GOOD BASIS FOR LOOKING AS THE POSSI-




BILITIES  OF FUEL  SWITCHING.   BECAUSE  IF WE CAN USE NAPTHA,




WE CAN  REDUCE THAT IMPACT BY  86 PERCENT JUST  FROM  SULPHUR




DIOXIDE,  JUST FROM FUEL SWITCHING.  SO, I  THINK THE  POSSI-




BILITIES  FROM THIS DISTRICT ARE, AT LEAST IN  THE  INTERIM,




THAT  WE'RE GOING TO LOOK  VERY HARD AT  FUEL SWITCHING AND




OTHER TECHNOLOGY ON THAT  REFINERY, AND I  THINK  IT'S  VERY




POSSIBLE  THAT  IF WE DO THAT THAT THIS  REFINERY  MAY BE ABLE




TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS.   MAY.   I'M  NOT SAYING  IT WILL.   I'M




SAYING  THERE  IS  A GOOD POTENTIAL WITH  SOME VERY ADVANCED




TECHNOLOGIES  AND FUEL SWITCHING THAT  WE CAN MITIGATE SOME  OF




THE  IMPACT THAT  WE CONSIDER  IMPORTANT.




             NOW,  I WOULD  LIKE  TO  GO  ON A COUPLE  OTHER THINGS.




IT'S  ALSO BEEN  BROUGHT OUT HERE THE BIG DISCUSS 10 N  ABOUT UTILIZING




THIS  FUEL  IN  THIS AREA.   IT'S  A VERY  UNFORTUNATE  SITUATION.




I  THINK  IT'S  A GREAT  IDEA TO  BRING  IN A REFINERY  THAT'S A




CLEAN-RUNNING REFINERY  THAT  COULD  BE  USED  TO  INSURE  THAT




YOUR  LOCALITY HAS SUFFICIENT  CLEAN-BURNING   FUEL  AVAILABLE




TO IT.    IT'S  GOOD FOR  THE ECONOMY,  IT'S GOOD  TO KEEP THE




HOUSE WARM.   OKAY.   BECAUSE  THESE  THINGS,MAY  GET  VERY BAD




AS FAR AS  ENERGY  IS  CONCERNED.   BUT IT  IS  ALSO UNFORTUNATE




THAT- WE  DON'T HAVE  A GOOD ENERGY  POLICY.   WE  HAVE A  STATE




COMMISSION  WHO HAS  JUST  STARTED UP.   WE HAVE  THE  PUBLIC

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 1   UTILITIES  COMMISSION,  WE HAD THE  FEDERAL ENERGY  COMMISSION.




 2   THEY ALL HAVE A HAND  IN HERE, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE




 3   GOING  TO DO.




 4                NOW, MR.  BEAN HAS INDICATED THAT  THE PURPOSE




 5   OF HIS  REFINERY WAS  TO SAVE OUR  AIR.   I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT.




 6   [  THINK  THEY MIGHT  HAVE SOME IDEA OF MAKING A COUPLE. OF




 7   DOLLARS  ON THE SIDE.




 8               (APPLAUSE)




 9                AND  I  THINK THAT SDGSE MIGHT STAND  TO  MAKE  A COUPLE




10   OF DOLLARS ON THE  SIDE BECAUSE  THEY HAVE CONTRACTS FOR  FUEL




II   NOW, AND THEY CAN  GET  IT CHEAPER.  SO ALTHOUGH IT MAY DO US




12   SOME GOOD  IN THE  REGION, I THINK INDEED WHEN  YOU'RE TALKING




13   ABOUT  A CORPORATE  STRUCTURE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PROFITS.




14   AND  THAT'S THEIR  PURPOSE.  AND  IF IT HELPS  US ON THE SIDE,




15   THAT'S  GREAT, BUT  1  HAD TO GET  THAT BARB  IN BECAUSE WE  GET




16   A LITTLE BIT ALIENATED WHEN  SOMEONE COMES  IN  WITH A REFINERY




17   AND  SAYS IT'S GOING TO HELP  MY  AIR QUALITY  AND THAT'S THE




18   PURPOSE OF IT.   I  DOUBT  IF THAT'S THE PURPOSE.




19                SO,  WHAT THIS DISTRICT IS GOING  TO HAVE TO  DO,




20   AND  THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO,  IS TO EVALUATE  THIS REFINERY




21   UNDER  A WORSE-CASE CONDITION, AND WE CANNOT  EVALUATE IT WITH




22   ASSUMPTIONS THAT  WE DO NOT HAVE THE POWER,OR  KNOW THERE  IS  -




23   THE  POWER  TO CONTROL.   SO, WE'RE ONLY GOING  TO EVALUATE IT




24   ON  THOSE ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE  CAN PUT ON A  PERMIT TO OPERATE.




25   NOW,  THAT  MEANS  WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE  TO TRADE OFF SOME

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 1   REGIONAL  BENEFITS VERSUS  LOCAL BECAUSE,  AS FAR AS WE  CAN SEE,

 2   THERE'S NO  GUARANTEE  AT ALL THAT AT  ANY  TIME THE  RESULTS --•   j
                                                                      i
 3   OR THE OUTPUT FROM  THAT REFINERY MAY GO  TO SOMEONE  ELSE.

 4   FOR EXAMPLE,  SUPPOSE  WE DO GET INTO  AN ENERGY CRISIS  AND

 5   THERE'S PROBLEMS BACK EAST.  YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE  BIGGER

 6   PROBLEMS  WITH S02 THAN WE DO AT THIS TIME.  THERE'S NO DOUBT

 7   THERE'S A GOOD POSSIBILITY THIS REFINERY WON'T EVEN GET

 8   FEED STOCK  UNLESS ITS PRODUCT GOES  BACK  EAST, AT  LEAST FOR

 9   AN INTERIM  PERIOD,  IF THERE IS AN  EMERGENCY.

10                YOU KNOW, YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE  THE ASSUMPTION

11   THAT YOU'RE GOING TO  USE IT HERE  IF  YOU HAVE ALL  THE PUBLIC

12   UTILITIES COMMISSION, THE FEDERALS  WHO REGULATE  THE OUTPUT

13   AND ACTUALLY THE  INPUT INTO THE THING, AND YOU HAVE NO

14   CONTROL OVER IT.  AND SO 1 THINK  FOR OUR  PURPOSE  WE'RE  GOING

15   TO HAVE TO  JUST SAY A SIMPLE WORSE-CASE BIT.  THAT THING

15   WILL HAVE TO STAND  ON ITS OWN, YOU KNOW,  AND NOT  POLLUTE  IN

17   A LOCALIZED AREA.   AND THEN WE CAN GIVE A  LEGAL  AND VALID

18   PERMIT  TO OPERATE  IF  IT CAN DO THAT.

19                 IT'S  UNFORTUNATE.   !  WOULD LIKE  TO  SEE THE  EPA

20   AND THE ARB  GET TOGETHER AND START PUTTING PRESSURE ON  THESE

21   FEDS AND  STATE  PEOPLE TO GET THEIR STUFF  TOGETHER AS FAR  AS

22   ENERGY  IS CONCERNED SO THAT WE  CAN ACTUALLY  GET  SOMETHING

23   IN HERE  THAT WOULD  INSURE  THAT WE  WOULD HAVE  SOME DECENT

24   FUELS  FOR USING  IN  OUR POWER GENERATION AND  KNOW THAT'S

25   WHAT  IT   IS.  IT'S A'GREAT  IDEA EXCEPT YOU DON'T  KNOW THAT'S

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GOING TO HAPPEN.   ALL YOU KNOW FOR SURE  IS  THAT SOMEBODY




WANTS TO BUILD  A  REFINERY HERE, AND  YOU  DON'T KNOW WHAT'S




GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE OUTPUT OF IT.   YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE




A THING.



             THERE ARE A COUPLE AREAS OF  CONCERN THAT I HAVE




HEARD SOME  TESTIMONY ON AND  1 WANT TO BRING THEM UP HERE.




THERE WAS A STATEMENT MADE BY EPA  THAT SDGSE MAY NOT HAVE




HALF-PERCENT OF LOW-SULPHUR  FUEL  IN  THE  FUTURE.  NOW, THAT




CONCERNS ME BECAUSE WHEN WE  WERE  LOOKING AT THE MACARIO  --




NOT  THE  MACARIO,  THE ENC1NA  5  INSTALLATION, WE DID  CHECK




WITH SDGSE, AND WE WERE ASSURED  AND  WE WERE -SHOWN CONTRACTS




FOR  HALF-PERCENT  FUEL THAT GO  OUT  TO, SAY,  AROUND 1985-   DID




YOU  GET  THAT, FRANK, FROM  SDGSE?




             MR. COVINGTON:   THAT THEY WOULD NOT?




             MR. SW1CKER:   WE HAD INDICATION THAT  THEY HAD




THIS CONTRACT.   THE  INDICATION  WE HAD WAS  THAT THEY HAD




 CONTRACTS   FOR  FUEL  BUT  THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE  WHERE THE  FUEL




 WOULD COME  FROM TO  FULFILL THOSE CONTRACTS.




             MR. SOMMERV1LLE:  AGAIN, WE HAVE  A PROBLEM  WITH




 A CORPORATION  WHO  TELLS YOU  ONE THING,  DEPENDING  ON WHAT




 THEIR PURPOSE  IS,  EVIDENTLY.  (APPLAUSE)




              CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK  YOU,,MR.  SOMMERVILLE.




 MR. COVINGTON  HAS  SOME  QUESTIONS.



              MR.  COVINGTON:  TWO POINTS.  AM i  UNDERSTANDING




 CORRECTLY  THE  AIR  POLLUTION  CONTROL  DISTRICT  WILL NOT BE ABLE

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                                                                53
 1  TO ACT  BEFORE OCTOBER?   IS  THAT YOUR PRESENT TIME TABLE?




 2         ,      MR. SOMMERVILLE:   NO,  1 DON'T  THINK -- WE DON'T




 3  HAVE  THE  RESTRICTIONS  THAT  YOU HAVE, AND  IN ALL DEFFERENCE




 4  TO EPA,  FOLKS, THEIR  REGULATIONS REQUIRE  A PRETTY STRICT  TIME




 5  FRAME  FOR WHICH INFORMATION COMES  IN AND  WHICH THEY COME  UP




 6  WITH  A  SOLUTION OR AN  ANSWER, AND  WE THINK THAT EPA IN




 7  REGION  9  COULD USE THIS  EXPERIENCE  VERY WELL TO GO BACK TO




 8  THEIR HEADQUARTERS AND GET  THAT  RULE CHANGED BECAUSE YOU




 9  SIMPLY  DO NOT HAVE A  COMPLEX  INSTALLATION LIKE A REFINERY




10  AND ATTEMPT TO COMPLETELY REVIEW THAT  TOTAL INSTALLATION  FOR




'll  EMISSIONS,  NOT JUST  THE  STANDARD ONES  THAT AFFECT YOUR  LIFE,




12  BUT THE STICKY ONES,  THE ONE-S THAT ARE ODOROUS, AND TRY TO




13  FIGURE  OUT IF THE  CONTROLS  ARE ADEQUATE  ON THAT THING,  TRY




14  TO  FIGURE OUT  IF THE  IMPACT,  THE LOCALIZED IMPACT, IS GOING




15  TO  BE SIGNIFICANT  OR  NOT.   THE  SYNERG1STIC EFFECTS BETWEEN




16  THE REGION AND THE OTHER INSTALLATIONS.   THAT'S.A BIG  JOB,




17  AND WE  JUST DON'T  THINK  WE'RE GOING TO BE  FINISHED WITH  THAT




18  JOB UNTIL ABOUT THAT  TIME.




19               MR. COVINGTON:   ONE  LAST  QUESTION.   GOING  BACK




20  TO  THE INITIAL TESTIMONY OF THE  GENTLEMAN  FROM THE  LEUCAD1A




21  TOWN  COUNCIL,  PART OF THAT DEALT WITH  HIS  CONCERNS ABOUT  THE




22  BUILD-OUT, THE POSSIBILITY OF ATTRACTING SATELLITE  INDUSTRIES,




23  THE  CREATION  OF A  PETROCHEMICAL  COMPLEX,  AS I  UNDERSTOOD  HIM.




24  DO  YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE  YOU COULD ADD AT THIS  POINT  AS  TO




25  WHAT  THE GENERAL  PLAN CALLS  FOR  AS TO  EXACTLY  WHAT  IS  THE LAND

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                                                                     1
 1   USE SITUATION,  THE ZONING  SITUATION?




 2                MR.  SOMMERVILLE:   WELL, THE  LAND USE -- IT'S  IN




 3   AN INDUSTRIAL PARK AREA.   WHETHER  IT'S  LIGHT OR HEAVY AT




 4   THIS POINT,  1  DON'T KNOW,  AS  FAR AS THE  ZONING AND LAND USE.




 5   I  BELIEVE  IT'S  OWNED  BY  SDGSE, AND THEY  WANT TO USE THAT  AS




 6   AN INDUSTRIAL PARK.   IT'S  THE AREA RIGHT UP ALONGSIDE THE




 7   AIRPORT.   I  WOULD JUST  CAUTION YOU TO  THE POINT THAT  IT




 8   DOESN'T  MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHAT THE  LAND USE DESIGNATION IS




 9   TODAY  OR WHAT THE ZONING IS TODAY  BECAUSE TOMORROW IT CAN BE




10   CHANGED.   (APPLAUSE)




11                MR.  COV1NGTON:   LOCAL  GOVERNMENT  IN ACTION.




12                I HAVE NO OTHER COMMENT.   THANK YOU.




13                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU, MR.  SOMMERVILLE.




14               (APPLAUSE)




15                WE'RE ABOUT TO TAKE  A  BREAK, BUT  FIRST WE HAVE




16   SOME HOUSEKEEPING FUNCTIONS.




17                IT WAS POINTED OUT TO  ME  THE SPEAKERS WERE  NOT




18   ALL  IDENTIFIED.   MR.  KEN SCHULTZ WAS  FROM THE LEUCADIA  TOWN




19   COUNCIL; MR. BRUCE BEAN, AS YOU  MIGHT HAVE  SUSPECTED, WAS




20   FROM  THE MACARIO REFINERY; AND MR.  JONES REPRESENTING HIMSELF.




21   THE  LAST SPEAKER, MR. RICH SOMMERVILLE, WAS  FROM  THE  SAN  DIEGO




22   AIR  POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT.




23                WE ARE NOW GOING  TO  TAKE  A RECESS FOR THE




24   PURPOSES OF THE  COURT REPORTER,  AND WE WILL  HAVE  A QUEST10N-





25   AND-ANSWER PERIOD.

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             NOW, TO  GET THIS THING  MOVING ALONG AS  EXPEDI-




T10USLY  AS  POSSIBLE—AND I  DO OBSERVE  THE HOUR--WE  WOULD LIKE




TO RECONVENE AT  11:30.   I  CANNOT  HELP  BUT NOTICE  THAT  THERE




ARE A NUMBER OF  PEOPLE  WHO WISH TO  SPEAK FOR THE  CARLSBAD




COMMUNITY  CAUSE.  WE ARE HERE TO  HEAR  EVERYONE WHO  WISHES TO




SPEAK;  BUT  IF THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY  CAUSE HAS A  SINGLE




SPEAKER  WHO CAN  PRESENT THEIR CASE  FOR THEM AND THE REST CAN




CONCUR  IN  HIS REMARKS,  THIS WILL  BE APPRECIATED.  HOWEVER,




IF THAT  CAN'T BE DONE,  WE WILL HEAR EVERYBODY WHO WISHES TO




SPEAK.   YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT THAT  BETWEEN NOW AND  11:30.




             WE WILL  NOW STAND AT  RECESS UNTIL THAT  TIME.




            (RECESS)




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:  LADIES  AND GENTLEMEN, WE WOULD




LIKE TO  RECONVENE THE  HEARING.




             FIRST OF ALL,  I HAVE  SOME  HOUSEKEEPING  FUNCTIONS




TO PERFORM.  THERE  WERE SOME EXHIBITS  THAT WERE  PRESENTED




THAT HAVE  NOT BEEN NUMBERED AND  IDENTIFIED ON THE  RECORD.




EXHIBIT   13 WILL BE  THE ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTECTION  AGENCY'S




NEWS RELEASE DATED  AUGUST 20TH,  1975.




             EXHIBIT  14  WILL BE THE  WRITTEN REMARKS  OF




MR. K.  L.  SCHULTZ,  PRESIDENT OF  THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL.




1  WAS HANDED A WRITTEN  DOCUMENT  PRIOR  TO THE HEARING FROM
23 i MR.  ALLAN 0. KELLY,  A ONE-PAGE  LETTER WITH  A  MAP ATTACHED
24




25
TO  IT,  AND I  HAVE  MARKED THAT  EXHIBIT 15.




             THE  SLIDE THAT WAS  PRESENTED BY  MR.  SOMMERVILLE

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                                                                 56
  1  WILL  BE MARKED  EXHIBIT 16.  AND  I  HAVE BEEN  ASSURED THAT THE




  2  SLIDES  PRESENTED  BY THE MACAR10  REFINERY WILL  BE  PRODUCED




  3  AND  PRESENTED,  AND THEY WILL  BE  MARKED IN  ORDER WHEN THEY'RE




  4  PRESENTED.




  5               IN  ACCORDANCE WITH  OUR REQUEST EARLIER, WE HAVE




  6  ASKED THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY  CAUSE IF THEY HAVE A PRINCIPAL




  7  SPEAKER,  AND MR.  DWIGHT WORDEN  WILL BE CALLED  ON  AT THIS TIME




  8  MR.  WORDEN IS AN  ATTORNEY FOR THE  CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE




  9  AND  IS  LOCATED  IN SOLANA  BEACH.




10               MR- WORDEN:   THANK  YOU, MR.- WALKER.  I  AM AN




II  ATTORNEY REPRESENTING THE LEGAL  PANEL FOR  CARLSBAD COMMUNITY




12  CAUSE.   MY OFFICE IS IN SOLANA  BEACH.




13               THE CARLSBAD  COMMUNITY CAUSE  IS  A  CIVIC GROUP,




14  AS MOST OF YOU  KNOW, COMPRISED  OF  SEVERAL  HUNDRED MEMBERS




J5  IN THE  CARLSBAD AREA.  WE ARE CONCERNED WITH OTHER PROJECTS




16  BESIDES THE REFINERY, ALTHOUGH  THEY HAVE  SPENT A LOT OF




17  TIME  RESEARCHING  AND INVESTIGATING THIS REFINERY.  I HAVE




18  SOME  WRITTEN COMMENTS THAT WERE  PREPARED  BY  THE LEGAL PANEL




19  TO SUBMIT INTO  EVIDENCE AND WILL HAND THOSE  IN AT THIS TIME,




20  MANY  OF THE PO-INTS THAT HAVE  BEEN  RAISED  ALREADY.  I WILL




2]  JUST  TOUCH LIGHTLY ON THOSE AND  HIT SOME  MORE  DETAIL ON  SOME




22  OF THE  THINGS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN  POINTED OUT  SO FAR.




23               FIRST, I WOULD LIKE  TO POINT  OUT OUR BASIC POINT




24  IS THAT THE EPA HAS ABUSED ITS  DISCRETION  IN MAKING A




25  PRELIMINARY APPROVAL OF THE REFINERY.  THEY  HAVE  NOT ACTED

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                                                                 57
IN A PROPER  MANNER UNDER  THE REGULATIONS  THAT GOVERN  THEM.




THEY HAVE  CONSIDERED  ONLY SOME OF  THE  ADVERSE AIR QUALITY




IMPACT THAT  WILL RESULT  FROM THE REFINERY.   UNDER THEIR




INITIAL  IMPACT APPRAISAL, IT'S INDICATED    AT PAGE  3,  IF




JUST THE  EMISSIONS COMING OUT OF THE  SMOKE STACKS WERE




CONSIDERED,  THE PROJECT  COULD NOT  BE  APPROVED.




             THE BASIS OF  THE APPROVAL IS  THERE WILL BE  THIS




NET OVERALL  REDUCTION IN  THE REGION  WHEN  YOU  BALANCE  THE




DIRECT EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY AGAINST THE BENEFICIAL




IMPACTS  OF THE USE OF LOW-POLLUTING  FUEL.  AS HAS  BEEN




POINTED  OUT, THAT ASSUMPTION  IS  SUBJECT TO QUESTION,  AND 1
12  WOULD  LIKE TO READ  TWO SHORT  STATEMENTS.  THE  FIRST IS FROM
EXHIBIT  8,  WHICH  IS  THE LETTER  FROM THE FEDERAL  ENERGY




ADMINISTRATION REFERRED TO WHICH,  IN DISCUSSING  THAT





ASSUMPTION SAYS:




             "HOWEVER,  THE ASSUMPTION IN YOUR  ANALYSIS THAT




THE  ENTIRE 100 MMCF  PER DAY  OF  SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS




PRODUCED BY THE  MACARIO REFINERY WILL BE UTILIZED IN THE




SAN  DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL  REGION IN LIEU  OF  ALTERNATE





FUELS  IS WITHOUT  BASIS."




             THE  SECOND STATEMENT IS FROM EXHIBIT 9, WHICH  IS




A  LETTER FROM THE PUBLIC  UTILITIES COMMISSION REFERRED TO,




AND  IT'S A DIRECT RESPONSE  TO  MR.  BEAN'S STATEMENT THAT  THE




PUC  PRESENTLY DOESN'T HAVE  ANY  AUTHORITY TO REALLOCATE FUEL.




             i.THE SHORTAGE OF NATURAL GAS MIGHT CAUSE ACTION

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                                                                58
TO BE TAKEN  TO ALLOCATE  THE MANUFACTURED  GAS  TO OTHER USES




IN SOUTHERN  CALIFORNIA WHICH CANNOT USE NON-GASEOUS ALTERNATE




FUELS."




             WE FEEL,  FIRST, EPA IS ABUSING IT'S DISCRETION




BY^BALANCING THE REGIONAL IMPACT AGAINST  THE  LOCAL  IMPACT.




THE  REGULATIONS, AS  STATED IN 52.233(6) OF THE C.F.R.




INDICATES  THEY HAVE  CONSIDERED IMPACTS  FROM THE SOURCE;  BUT




IF THEY  ARE  GOING  TO BALANCE REGIONAL  IMPACTS, THEY MUST




BALANCE  THE  ADVERSE  REGIONAL IMPACTS  AS  WELL AS THE BENEFICIAL




REGIONAL IMPACTS.   THEY  HAVE CONSIDERED  THE BENEFICIAL




IMPACTS  ON THE ASSUMPTION THE FUEL WILL  BE USED HERE.   THEY




HAVE  NOT CONSIDERED  THE  ADVERSE  IMPACTS  INDIRECTLY  RESULTING




FROM  THE REFINERY,  SUCH  AS DIESEL  TRUCK  TRAFFIC,  INCREASED




EMISSIONS  FROM TANKER TRAFFIC,  INCREASED  INDUSTRIAL EXPANSION,




INCREASED  GROWTH POTENTIAL, AND  AUTOMOBILE TRAFFIC, AND ALL




THE  ATTENDANT AIR  POLLUTION CONSEQUENCES   OF THOSE.




             SKIPPING OVER A LOT  OF  OTHER  POINTS THAT  HAVE




BEEN  COVERED  ADEQUATELY  ALREADY,  I  THINK  WE ALSO  FEEL THAT




EPA  HAS  NOT ADEQUATELY CONSIDERED  ALL ALTERNATIVES.




ALTHOUGH EPA  IS  SPECIFICALLY EXEMPTED FROM THE ENVIRONMENTAL




IMPACT STATEMENT  OF THE NEPA, THE  NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL




POLICY ACT, IT  IS  NOT EXAMPTED  FROM THE REST  OF THE NATIONAL




ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ACT,  AND THAT ACT,   IN SECTION 102(2)(D)




REQUIRES THAT ALTERNATIVES  TO THE  PROJECT BE  CONSIDERED.




             AS  WE  POINTED  OUT,  A VERY VIABLE  ALTERNATIVE IS

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                                                                 59
  1  TO  LOCATE THE  REFINERY ELSEWHERE  AND PUT THE  FUELS TO USE

  2  STILL IN SAN DIEGO.   AND THERE  IS NO BASIS  THAT  WE CAN SEE

  3  IN  THE RECORD  THAT IN ORDER  TO  HAVE CLEAN  FUELS  AVAILABLE  I N"

  4  SAN DIEGO THE  REFINERY MUST  BE  LOCATED  IN  SAN DIEGO OR IN

  5  CARLSBAD, IN PARTICULAR.

  6               FINALLY,  WE WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT  THERE IS

  7  SOME QUESTION  THAT HAS BEEN  RAISED BY THE  ZONING, ET CETERA.

  8  WE  RESEARCHED  THIS,  AND, GENERALLY, ALTHOUGH  IT  IS A VERY

  9  COMPLICATED PROCESS,  THE REFINERY  IS GOING TO HAVE TO GO

 10  THROUGH TO GET APPROVAL, THE FIRST STAGE:   THERE WILL HAVE

 ]|  TO  BE AN APPLICATION FOR ANNEXATION TO  THE LOCAL AGENCY

 12  FORMATION COMMISSION TO ANNEX WHAT IS NOW  AN  UNINCORPORATED

 I3  PART OF THE COUNTY OF SAN  DIEGO TO THE  CITY OF CARLSBAD,

 14  WHICH IS TO BE THE LEAD AGENCY  TO  PREPARE  THE ENVIRONMENTAL

 15  IMPACT REPORT.   NONE OF THIS HAS  BEEN DONE YET.   GENERAL  PLAN
•
 16  AMENDMENTS WILL BE REQUIRED, A  SPECIFIC PLAN  WILL BE

 17  REQUIRED, PRE-ZONING WILL  BE REQUIRED,  ON  AND ON BEFORE  THIS

 18  PROJECT GETS APPROVAL.

 19               WE FEEL THAT  IT  WOULD  BE MORE  PRUDENT FOR EPA  TO

 20  WAIT UNTIL SOME OF THIS  IS DONE,  SPECIFICALLY UNTIL  THE  APCD

 2i  HAS COMPLETED  THEIR WORK AND UNTIL AN EIR  IS  AVAILABLE.

 22  EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE EXEMPTED UNDER NEPA,  IT  WOULD BE

 23  BENEFICIAL TO  HAVE THE  INFORMATION AVAILABLE  THAT WOULD  BE

 24  PRESENTED IN AN EIR, WHICH WILL BE FORTHCOMING.

 25               AND, FINALLY,  1  WOULD  JUST  LIKE TO SUPPORT THE

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STATEMENTS THAT MR.  SOMMERVILLE  MADE  ON  BEHALF OF THE  APCD
THAT A VERY PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE  IN  MITIGATING THE MEASURE
IS TO REQUIRE THE  USE OF  SOME  OTHER FUELS.
            THANK  YOU.
           (APPLAUSE)
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU.
            MR. WORDEN,  DID YOU SAY YOU HAVE SOME MATTERS
YOU WANT  TO OFFER  AS EXHIBITS?
            MR. VJORDEN:   YES.   HE'S HANDING THEM TO YOU.
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:  EARLIER IT WAS SAID WE WERE  NOT
GOING TO  PERMIT OPEN DEBATE,  BUT SEVERAL PEOPLE  ASKED  IF  THEY
CAN ASK QUESTIONS.  IF  YOU HAVE QUESTIONS YOU  WISH  TO
ADDRESS EITHER  TO  THE PANEL OR TO ANY PARTICULAR SPEAKER,
 IF  YOU WILL PUT  THEM IN WRITING AND HAND THEM  TO THE  YOUNG
LADY  AT MY RIGHT,  WE WILL BE GLAD TO AT LEAST  PUT  THEM IN
THE RECORD AND  ANSWER THEM IF WE CAN.   I'M  NOT SURE WE CAN
ANSWER EVERY  QUESTION THAT'S POSED TO US.
             1  HAVE  RECEIVED ONE, TWO, THREE,  FOUR  PAGES ON
 THE  LETTERHEAD  OF WORDEN  £ WILLIAMS, ATTORNEYS AT  LAW, AS
 DESCRIBED HERE,  AND THIS  WILL  BE MARKED AS  EXHIBIT 17.
             I  WILL  NOW CALL ON  MR.  R.  R.  RICHARDSON,
 7325  EL  PASO  STREET, LA  MESA,  CALIFORNIA,  REPRESENTING THE
 SAN DIEGO LABOR COUNCIL.
             MR. RICHARDSON:   MEMBERS OF THE PANEL  OF  THE
 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION  AGENCY, MY  NAME  IS R. R.  RICHARDSON.

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 I  I'M SECRETARY-TREASURER  OF THE SAN  DIEGO LABOR COUNCIL.   AND




 2  FROM THE  START I  WOULD  LIKE TO HAVE  IT  UNDERSTOOD THAT  I'M




 3  NOT AN  EXPERTEE IN ONE  TYPE OF FUEL  OVER ANOTHER, THE ANSWER




 4  TO OUR  ENERGY CRISIS,  BUT 1 DO UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE WORKINGS




 5  OF ECONOMIC IMPACT ON  PEOPLE.   THAT'S  THE NAME OF MY JOB.




 6               AS SECRETARY OF THE LABOR  COUNCIL, I REPRESENT




 7  140,000 MEMBERS IN SAN  DIEGO COUNTY.   OF THIS 140,000,




 8  APPROXIMATELY 30,000  LIVE IN NORTH  COUNTY.   OF THAT  30,000




 9  IN NORTH  COUNTY,  IN  THE  BUILDING  TRADES PART OF  THE  30,000




10  MEMBERS OF  THE BUILDING  TRADES UNION WE HAVE 28  TO  30  PERCENT




1]   UNEMPLOYMENT.  SPEAKING  OF NORTH  COUNTY ONLY.  THESE  30,000




12  MEMBERS OF  ORGANIZED  LABOR THAT LIVE IN NORTH COUNTY ARE




13   TAX PAYERS  AND CONCERNED CITIZENS,  THE  SAME AS YOU  ARE.




14               THE SAN  DIEGO COUNTY  LABOR  COUNCIL STRONGLY




15   SUPPORTS  THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE  REFINERY CONTEMPLATED  BY




16   MACARIO REFINERY BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT  IT WILL HAVE  ON  OUR




17   ALREADY SICK ECONOMY  IN  SAN DIEGO COUNTY, WHICH  INCLUDES




18   NORTH COUNTY.  THE BUILDING OF THIS  REFINERY WOULD  CREATE




19   APPROXIMATELY  4,000,000   MAN HOURS OF WORK AND, AT A  PEAK,




20   AN EMPLOYMENT FIGURE  OF  2,200 PEOPLE IN THE CONSTRUCTION  ONLY.




21   AFTER CONSTRUCTION,  THEN THE MAINTENANCE, WHICH  FIGURES  I  DO




22   NOT HAVE  AT MY FINGERTIPS.




23                THIS WILL  STIMULATE THE  ECONOMY IN NORTH COUNTY,




24   WHICH WOULD PROFIT BY  AN INCREASE IN BUSINESS AND PROFITS TO




25   THE BUTCHER, THE BAKER,  THE BARBER,  THE RESTAURANT  OWNER,  THE

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 1   LANDLORD WHO  IS  FORTUNATE  ENOUGH TO HAVE  APARTMENTS OR  INCOME j




 2   PROPERTY.   I'M SURE MANY OF OUR PEOPLE  RENT THOSE PLACES.




 3   IT WOULD  INSURE  THEM THE SECURITY OF THEIR RENT FOR THEIR





 4   INCOME.




 5                1  HAVE NOT  SEEN OR HEARD WHERE THE BUILDING OF




 6   THIS PLANT  WOULD CREATE  AN EYESORE.   1  HAVE HEARD- THIS




 7   MORNING  FOR THE  FIRST  TIME IT WILL  BE  IN  A CANYON.  AND 1




 8   ALSO DID  NOT  HEAR OR SEE WHERE  IT WOULD BE IN CON-FLICT  OF




 9   ANY PLANNING.   AND FROM WHAT I'VE .HEARD HERE THIS MORNING,




10   IT DOES  MEET  ALL MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS  EXCEPT THE TECHNI-




11   CALITIES  OF THE FIGURES WE HAVE HEARD  HERE FROM  BOTH  SIDES.




12   AND ALSO  1  HAVE HEARD  THIS MORNING  FROM ONE  INDIVIDUAL  IT




13   IS HIS  CONCEPT THAT  IT WILL BE  BLACK  SMOKE,  THICK  BLACK




14   SMOKE  ROLLING OUT OF  THE STACKS,  WHICH IS, ACCORDING  TO WHAT




15   1  HAVE  HEARD AND  TALKED TO MR.  BEAN,  IS NOT  SO.   THIS WILL




16   NOT BE  THE FACT WITH  THIS   PARTICULAR  PLANT.




17                IN  1933  I  MOVED TO CARLSBAD,   CALIFORNIA,  AND  I




18   LIVED  HERE FOR  1938,  '39,   AND  1940.  AT THAT TIME  CARLSBAD




19   AND OCEANS IDE WERE  JUST SMALL  LITTLE  ONE-HORSE  TOWNS.




20   CARLSBAD HAD AN APPROXIMATE POPULAT1ON--AND  I  REMEMBER THE




21   SIGN  OUTSIDE THE  CITY LIM1TS--SOME  APPROXIMATE  1600 TO 2000




22   PEOPLE.   OCEANS!DE,  PRIOR  TO  THE  BUILDING OF CAMP  PENDLETON,




23  ! HAD  APPROXIMATELY  3000 OR  3300.  NOW,  I'M NOT  SAYING NORTH




24   COUNTY HASN'T COME  A LONG  WAYS, AND 1  THINK  DUE TO THE FACT




25   THEY  HAVE  COME  A  LONG WAYS IS  BECAUSE  THEY WERE WILLING TO

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MEET THE  CHALLENGES,  CHANGE WITH THE  TIMES IN WHICH WE  WERE




LIVING, AND TO CONTINUE  TO DO WHAT WE  HAVE DONE IN THE  PAST




AND  IN  THE FUTURE.   I'M  SURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONTINUE




TO MEET THE CHANGES,  MEET THE CHALLENGES, ADJUST OURSELVES




TO THE  THINGS THAT  WE NEED IN THE WAY  OF SERVICES.




             I'M ALSO  SURE THAT  IF THE ATTITUDE OF  THE




OPPOSITION TO THE  BUILDING OF THIS  PLANT WAS  THE SAME




ATTITUDE  OF CERTAIN PEOPLE AT THE TIME 1 MOVED TO  CARLSBAD




IN  1938  YOU WOULD  NOT EVEN BE LIVING IN NORTH COUNTY  TODAY




BECAUSE  THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH HOUSING, THERE WOULD NOT




BE  ENOUGH PLACES  TO BUY YOUR  MERCHANDISE,  YOUR GROCERIES;




THERE  WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH  SERVICES  FOR YOUR  UTILITIES.  YOU




WOULD  NOT EVEN, MAYBE, BE  SITTING  IN THIS  ROOM TODAY  IF THE




SAME ATTITUDE PREVAILED THEN.




             THE  LABOR MOVEMENT  IN  SAN DIEGO  COUNTY HAS




ALWAYS BEEN A STRONG SUPPORTER  FOR  CLEAN  AIR, FOR  PURE AIR,




FOR  OPEN  SPACES,  PARKS, RECREATIONAL, ET  CETERA.   BUT  WHEN




 IT  DIRECTLY OR  INDIRECTLY  INVOLVES  THE  LIVES OF  THE PEOPLE




WE  REPRESENT  IN  THE WORKING  PEOPLE  OF OUR  COMMUNITY,




 INCLUDING NORTH  COUNTY, WE GET  REAL CONCERNED AND LOOK AT




 IT  PRETTY  DEEP.   THEN WE  TAKE A GOOD  LOOK  AT IT.




              AS  OUR BROTHER SAID THIS  MORNING, WHICH i   THOUGHT





WAS VERY  TIMELY,  WE  LIKE  CLEAN  AIR, WE  LIKE  PURE WATER.




 BUT IF YOU  HAVE  NOTHING  IN YOUR STOMACH,  YOU DON'T ENJOY  THAT,





AND THAT'S  WHAT  THE  NAME  OF THE GAME  IS.
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                 1  WISH TO  THANK THOSE WHO  MADE IT POSSIBLE  FOR




    THIS HEARING HERE TODAY,  MEMBERS OF  THE  PANEL, WHICH  IN




    TURN MADE  IT POSSIBLE  FOR ME TO MAKE MY  FEW REMARKS HERE




    TODAY.




 5               1  ALSO UNDERSTAND,  IN CLOSING, THIS PARTICULAR




 6  PARCEL OF  LAND AT PRESENT IS IN THE  UNINCORPORATED  PART  OF




    THE COUNTY,  WHICH MEANS  IT'S NOT ON  THE  TAX ROLLS.   IF  THIS




    PLANT  IS  BUILT,  I'M  SURE  IT WILL COME  ON THE TAX  ROLLS  OF




    PRIVATE  ENTERPRISE,  WHICH WILL  RELIEVE THE TAX BURDENS  ON




10  YOU THAT  ARE CAUGHT  IN A  FIXED  INCOME  AND YOU THAT  HAVE  TO




1]  PAY THE  PROPERTY TAXES IN NORTH COUNTY OR WHATEVER  PARTICULAR




12  CITY YOU'RE  IN.




13               AGAIN,  1  WISH TO URGE THE  PANEL THAT  IN THEIR




14  FINAL  APPROVAL THEY  ACCEPT THE  APPLICATION FOR THE  CONSTRUCTIC




15  OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY.'   THANK YOU.




16              (APPLAUSE)




17               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK  YOU, MR.  RICHARDSON.




18               ARE  THERE  ANY QUESTIONS  OF MR. RICHARDSON FROM




19  THE PANEL?




20               NEXT, ACCORDING TO  OUR  ORDER,  IS  MR.  DEE  LOGSTON.




21               MR.  LOGSTON:   MY NAME  is DEE LOGSTON.   I'M  A




22  RESIDENT  OF SAN  DIEGO COUNTY AND NOT NORTH COUNTY,  BUT  I  HAVE




23  BEEN A RESIDENT  OF  SAN DIEGO COUNTY  FOR QUITE A NUMBER  OF





24  YEARS.




25               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  WOULD  YOU GIVE  YOUR ADDRESS.
N

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                                                                 65
             MR. LOGSTON:   I  LIVE  IN  CHULA VISTA,  100  WOODLAWN




AVENUE  IN  CHULA VISTA.   I  LIVE VERY  NEAR A POWER-GENERATING




FACILITY  IN CHULA  VISTA.   IT'S BEEN  OPERATED BY  SAN  DIEGO




GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY.




             I  HAVE  LIVED QUITE CLOSE TO MANY OTHER  GENERATING




PLANTS  WHERE I HAVE  LIVED IN THE  PAST.   KANSAS  CITY  POWER £




ELECTRIC  COMPANY.   IN  THE PAST  I  HAVE SEEN COMPANIES  THAT




BURNED  COAL, THAT  GENERATE THEIR  ELECTRICITY.   THEY  BURN FUEL




OIL.  AND  IN THE PAST  LIKE THAT  IT HASN'T BEEN  TOO  PLEASANT




TO  LIVE AROUND THOSE  KINDS OF  PLANTS.  YOU GOT  ONE  RIGHT HERE




IN  ENCINA  NOW THAT'S  GENERATING  ITS  POWER WITH  A GRADE OF




FUEL  OIL  THAT THEY'RE  ATTEMPTING  TO  CHANGE AND  MAKE  IT BETTER




TO  CUT  DOWN ON THE  POLLUTION.  AND THIS IS EXACTLY  WHAT'S




GOING TO  HAPPEN WITH  THE BUILDING OF THIS REFINERY  THAT THEY'R




TALKING ABOUT.




             YOU HAVE  ALREADY HEARD FROM SOME  PRIOR  TESTIMONY




THIS  MORNING THAT  PROBABLY IN  '78, '79 AND YEARS IN THE




FUTURE, TEN YEARS  IN  THE FUTURE,  WHAT WOULD  HAPPEN  IN THIS




AREA  THAT  WE'RE TALKING ABOUT  HERE BY THE PRODUCTION OF




POWER ON  THIS  PLANT IF THEY  CONTINUE TO USE  THE FUEL OILS .




THAT  THEY'RE USING NOW AND THE FUEL THAT THEY  MAY BE FORCED




TO  USE  IN THE  FUTURE.




             IF WE  HAVE A FUEL  OIL SHORTAGE,  WHICH WE HAVE




HAD IN  THE  PAST,  IT'S  POSSIBLE THEY'RE GOING  TO BURN EVEN A




LOWER GRADE OF FUEL.   DON'T  THINK FOR A MINUTE  THEY'RE GOING

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                                                                66
TO SHUT  THAT PLANT DOWN  IF THEY CAN'T  GET THE FUEL  THEY'RE




USING NOW.   BECAUSE  IF  YOU THINK THAT'S  THE CASE, YOU'RE




GOING TO BE SITTING  OUT  HERE WITH  YOUR CANDLES AND  YOU'RE




GOING TO BE SITTING  HERE WITHOUT HEAT  IN YOUR HOME  BECAUSE




YOU  CAN'T RUN YOUR HEATING SYSTEMS.   THIS  IS GOING  TO HAPPEN.




IF  IT REALLY COMES TO THIS, THIS  IS  EXACTLY WHAT  WILL HAPPEN.




             THERE'S  MANY PLANTS  RIGHT  NOW  THAT ARE  BURNING




OIL,  WHICH  IS A  HIGHER POLLUTANT  THAN  COAL.  BUT  IF IT COMES




THAT  THEY CAN'T  HAVE OIL AS A  SUPPLY OF  FUEL,  THEY  WILL BURN




COAL  IN THAT PLANT TO GENERATE  THEIR STEAM,  TO GENERATE THAT




ENERGY.   THIS  IS  GOING TO HAPPEN.




             IF  THIS  PLANT  IS  BUILT,  THIS  REFINERY  IS BUILT,




YOU WILL GET A  LOWER GRADE  OF  FUEL OIL.   NATURAL GAS THAT'S




GOING TO BE A  BY-PRODUCT OF  THIS PLANT,  THIS' IN  ITSELF IS




GOING TO CUT DOWN ON THE  POLLUTION.    IT'S  POSSIBLE THIS




COMPANY, THIS  REFINERY,  IS  GOING TO USE  THEIR  OWN  PRODUCT




WHEN THEY  GET  THIS  THING  GOING TO REALLY RUN THEIR PLANT




OFF OF, AND IT WAS  THE  TESTIMONY HERE  IF THEY  USE  THE  NATURAL




GAS TO  OPERATE ON,  THE  NAPTHAS AND WHATEVER ELSE THEY  USE IN




THERE,   THAT THEY'RE  GOING TO CUT ONE-FOURTH ON THE POLLUTANTS.




SO, 1 THINK IF YOU GET  YOUR HEAD  IN -GEAR AND START THINKING




OF WHAT'S  GOING TO HAPPEN TEN YEARS FROM NOW,  IF YOU'RE




GOING TO  BE AROUND HERE,  YOU WILL BE  SITTING HERE  WITH THE




 SAME PLANT THAT YOU  HAVE  OVER HERE  RIGHT NOW,  AND  IT  WILL BE




 GENERATING STEAM --  OR  GENERATING ELECTRICITY THE  SAME AS IT I

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                                                                67
 1   NOW WITH A  FUEL OIL THAT  HAS  MORE POLLUTANTS  IN  THE AIR THAN  j




 2   YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW.




 3                AND WITH THIS REFINERY BEING  BUILT IN HERE, SURE,




 4   YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME KIND OF AIR  POLLUTION  COMING FROM




 5   THIS REFINERY, SMALL AMOUNT,  BECAUSE  IT'S  GOING  TO BE




 6   CONTROLLED,  BUT YOU'RE  ALSO GOING TO  HAVE  FUEL BURNERS THAT'S




 7   GOING TO CUT DOWN ON THE  POLLUTANTS THAT  YOU WILL BE GETTING




 8   NOW AND GETTING IN THE  FUTURE, SO YOU  SHOULD BE  THINKING  A




 9   LITTLE BIT.




10                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   JUST A  MINUTE.  THIS  IS  NOT




11   ORGANIZED  AS A DEBATE  BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE  IN  THE




12   COMMUNITY.   WE CAME DOWN  HERE TO HEAR WHAT THE PEOPLE  HAVE




13   TO SAY TO  US.   YOU CAN  TALK TO EACH OTHER ALMOST ANY TIME.




14   SO, PLEASE  ADDRESS THE  REMARKS TO US.   1 F YOU HAVE  ANY.




15   QUESTIONS  YOU WISH TO  HAVE ADDRESSED,  PLEASE WRITE  THEM




16   DOWN, AND  WE WILL  TRY  TO  GET  THEM TO  THE  RIGHT PERSON  AND




17   WE WILL  ANSWER THEM,  IF POSSIBLE.   IF NOT, WE WILL  PUT THEM




18   IN THE  RECORD AS  SUCH,  BUT WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GET THROUGH




19   IF WE HAVE AN  INTERNAL DEBATE.




20                GO AHEAD.




21                MR. LOGSTON:   THANK  YOU,  MR.  CHAIRMAN,   i  THINK




22   RIGHT AT  THAT  1 WILL  SHUT  IT  OFF, AND THANKS  FOR THE





23   OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAR  HERE.




24                (APPLAUSE)




25                THANKS FOR THE INCONSIDERATE BOOS.   IT SHOWS

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                                                                 68
 1   YOU'RE ENTITLED TO YOUR  VIEWS.




 2               (APPLAUSE)




 3                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   BEFORE  WE  GO ON TO THE  NEXT




 4   SPEAKER:   !  SAID WE WOULD ACCEPT WRITTEN QUESTIONS.   I  HAVE




 5   ONE QUESTION HERE THAT  IS ADDRESSED  GENERALLY, AND  I'M  NOT




 6   SURE WE'RE  PREPARED TO ANSWER IT,  BUT I'LL PUT 1 T ON  THE




 7   RECORD:




 8                "WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM EFFECT OF  REFINERY




 9   EMISSION  ON THE PERSON WITH A RESPIRATORY DISEASE AND THOSE




10   ENGAGED  IN  VIGOROUS PHYSICAL ACTIVITY,  HIGH SCHOOL  ATHLETICS,




11   ET CETERA?"




12                I  THINK THERE'S A GREAT  DEAL WRITTEN ON THAT.




13   I'M NOT  SURE WE'RE PREPARED TO GIVE  A DEFINITIVE ANSWER HERE




14   TODAY.




15                MR. COVINGTON:  I WOULD  SUGGEST,  MATT,  IT'S A




16   QUESTION  THAT I THINK WE NEED TO TALK TO.  THERE ARE  TWO OR




17   THREE OF  THEM THAT HAVE  COME UP HERE.  AGAIN, WE'RE GOING




IS   TO EXTEND THE INVITATION TO COME RAP WITH US  OFF THE  RECORD.




19   WE WOULD  BE VERY GLAD TO SPEAK TO  THAT  QUESTION AND OTHERS




20   LIKE THAT,  BUT  IT WON'T  HELP DEVELOP THE RECORD THAT  WE'RE




21   LOOKING  FOR RIGHT NOW.




22                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  I HAVE ONE QUESTION  THAT WAS




23   SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED TO MR. RICHARDSON.  1 WILL EDIT IT




24   SLIGHTLY.   THE QUESTIONS ASKS IN THREE  PARTS:   ISN'T  IT




25   TRUE THAT CONSTRUCTION  TRADITIONALLY BRINGS IN OUTSIDE LABOR?

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                                                               69
 1   DON'T REFINERIES GENERALLY  RUN THEMSELVES?  AND AREN'T  THE



 2   CONSTRUCTION WORKERS  GOING  TO BE TRANSFERRED FROM THE OUTSIDE?
           *


 3               I  WILL ADDRESS  THE QUESTION FOR THE RECORD.   AND



 4   IF MR.  RICHARDSON WANTS  TO  REPLY, HE MAY.  OTHERWISE, WE  WILL



 5   LET IT  STAND ON THE  RECORD.



 6               I  SEE NO  ONE COMING FORWARD, SO 1 WILL  ASK



 7   SOMEONE ELSE FROM THE AUDIENCE.  THE NEXT  CARD .IS MR.  R.  L.



 8   BISHOP.  IS MR. BISHOP HERE?



 9               WOULD YOU GIVE  YOUR FULL NAME  AND ADDRESS  FOR



10   THE RECORD.'


n               MR. BISHOP:   MY NAME IS RICHARD BISHOP.   1



12   REPRESENT THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL.   1  HAVE  BEEN A CHEMICAL



13   ENGINEER FOR ABOUT  50 OR 60 YEARS.  I  CAME HERE  PRIMARILY



14   TO GET QUESTIONS ANSWERED.   MOST HAVE  BEEN ANSWERED.   AS



15   FAR AS LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL SAYING ANYTHING,  KEN SCHULTZ



16   DID THE JOB ADEQUATELY.   THEREFORE, I  DO  NOT  WANT TO TAKE



17   ANY OF YOUR TIME WITH NONSENSE  BECAUSE  1  AM GETTING MY



18   QUESTIONS ANSWERED.


19               (APPLAUSE)



20               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU.



21               THE NEXT CARD I HAVE  IS MR.  CHARLES  F.--I'M NOT



22   SURE I HAVE THIS  NAME RIGHT--FEMELLEY  --


23               MR.  TROMBLEY:   TROMBLEY,  T-R-O-M-B-L-E-Y.



24               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   T-R-O-M- --'



25               MR.  TROMBLEY:   B-L-E-Y.

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 1                MR. CHAIRMAN,  LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,  I'M CHUCK




 2   TROMBLEY.   I  REPRESENT  THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY BUILDING TRADES




 3   COUNCIL.   1  LIVE IN ESCONDIDO.  I WORKED IN THE NORTH  COUNTY




 4   FOR OVER  17  YEARS.  MR.  RICHARDSON HAS  COVERED THE BULK  OF




 5   WHAT  LABOR  ISF  INTERESTED IN IN THE NORTH COUNTY.




 6                TO ANSWER  THE QUESTION THAT WAS PUT BY.SOME




 7   MEMBER  IN  THE AUDIENCE  HERE,  I WOULD LIKE TO SAY AT THIS




 8   TIME  THAT  THE BUILDING  INDUSTRY IN SAN  DIEGO COUNTY -- NOT




 9   ONLY  SAN  DIEGO COUNTY,  IT IS  THE LARGEST INDUSTRY  IN THE




10   STATE--WE  ARE SUFFERING, AND  WE ARE  SUFFERING BADLY.   YOU




11   HAVE  HEARD  THE ESTIMATE OF THE PEOPLE  THAT ARE  UNEMPLOYED.




12   IT'S  ABOVE  THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.




13                TO ANSWER  YOUR QUESTION, WHOEVER THE QUESTIONER




14   WAS,  WE  HAVE AMPLE  PEOPLE IN  THIS AREA  TO MAN THE  JOB.




15   TALKING  ABOUT  4,000,000 MAN HOURS.   WE'RE TALKING  ABOUT




16   TAKING  PROPERTY THAT'S  ADJACENT TO AN  AIRPORT,  A NOISE




17   POLLUTION  AREA, IF  YOU WILL,  IN THAT  CANYON, AND WE'RE




18   TALKING  ABOUT  PUTTING  THAT PROPERTY  ON  THE PAYING  ROLLS OF




19   TAXPAYERS,  SO  THIS  SHOULD REDUCE YOUR  TAXES.  MY TAXES HAVE




20   DONE  NOTHING BUT  GONE  UP  IN THE  LAST  COUPLE OF  YEARS.   I HOPE




21   IT  HASN'T  THIS YEAR.   BUT I DON'T  SEE  IT'S GOING TO  BE FOR




22   THE RETIRED PEOPLE  WHO ARE TRAPPED.   WE HAVE MANY  CONSTRUC-




23   TION   PEOPLE RETIRED  WHO  ARE  TRAPPED BY THIS  INCESSANT




24   RAISING OF TAXES.   WE  ARE VERY  INTERESTED  IN THAT.   AND




25   THESE THINGS,  I THINK,  ARE  PARAMOUNT TO GOOD LIVING,  TO
                                                                      I

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                                                                 71
 CLEAN AIR.





              THERE  ISN'T A PERSON  IN  HERE THAT DOESN'T  WANT




 THE  SAME  THING.    WE'RE LOOKING AT  THE PICTURE  FROM  DIFFERENT




 ANGLES.   WE ALL WANT  CLEAN AIR, WE  ALL WANT CLEAN  WATER,  WE




 WANT A  GOOD ENVIRONMENT, AND WE WANT  A GOOD LIVING.   I  HAVE




 NEVER SEEN  AN ECONOMY THAT WAS A  PENNY-PINCHING ECONOMY THAT




WASN'T RAIZED  TO THE  SURFACE.  JUST  SCRUTINIZE THE CONDITIONS




 AROUND  THE  WORLD WHERE YOUR LABOR DOESN'T GET ANY  KIND OF




 MONEY.




              AND I  WOULD LIKE  TO ASK  --  I MEAN RETORT I THINK,




 MR.  SOMMERVILLE.   I  HAVE NEVER WORKED FOR A BANKRUPT




 CORPORATION VERY LONG AT ALL.  THEY  JUST DON'T  PAY ANY MONEY.




 ANY  EMPLOYER I  EVER  WORKED FOR HAD  TO MAKE MONEY.   THIS IS




 PART OF THE AMERICAN  SYSTEM.  AND AS FAR AS THE ATTORNEY




 FOR  COMMON  CAUSE AND THE GENTLEMAN  FROM LEUCADIA,  I  WOULD




 LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT 80 PERCENT OF  THE  VEHICLES INVOLVED ARE




 ALREADY HERE IN THE  AREA, THAT THERE ARE GOING  TO  BE 180




 JOBS CREATED OTHER THAN CONSTRUCTION JOBS WHEN  THIS  THING




 IS  FINISHED.  SO,  THESE CARS  ARE  ALREADY HERE.   WHAT ARE WE




 WORRIED ABOUT ON THE ADDED POLLUTION FROM'VEHICLES IN THE




 AREA?




              THESE  ARE A FEW OF THE  COMMENTS.  ABOUT  80




 PERCENT OF MY COMMENTS WERE TAKEN UP BY MR. RICHARDSON, AND




 SO  I'LL MAKE IT VERY BRIEF AND SHORT.   I WOULD  LIKE  VERY MUCH




 TO  SEE  THAT THIS PERMIT BE GRANTED TO MACARIO TO BUILD THIS

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                                                                 72
 1   PLANT BECAUSE I  THINK  IT WILL BE AN  ASSET TO THE COMMUNITY.




 2   IT WILL  BE  AN ASSET  TO  EVERY PERSON  IN THIS ROOM.   THE  FUEL




 3   TECHNICIANS,  THE WAY  THEY HAVE BEEN  GIVING US THE  BUSINESS




 4   ON OIL,  WE  MIGHT HAVE  THAT RECUR ANY DAY NOW, AND  WE  SHOULD




 5   LOOK FOR DEVELOPMENT  IN A SANE AND  ECONOMICALLY  FEASIBLE




 6   MANNER.   THANK YOU.




 7               (APPLAUSE)




 8                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   I OBSERVE THE HOUR.   IT IS NOW




 9   NOON.  AND  AS WE ANNOUNCED, WE ARE  GOING TO TAKE A NOON BREAK




10   UNTIL  1:30.   WE HAVE  A LARGE DECK  OF CARDS LEFT  HERE.




11   MR.  COVINGTON HAS  STATED HE WILL,  ON AN OFF-THE-RECORD




12   SESSION,  TAKE QUESTIONS AND GIVE  SUCH ANSWERS AS WE'RE ABLE




13   TO AT  THIS  TIME.




14                SO, THE  FORMAL HEARING  WILL NOW STAND  IN RECESS,




15   AND  WE WILL TRY TO RECONVENE PROMPTLY AT  1:30.




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                               SATURDAY  AFTERNOON SESSION

                               AUGUST 23,  1975,  1:30 P.M.



             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THE HOUR HAS ARRIVED TO

CONTINUE  WITH THIS HEARING.

             AT THE COMMENCEMENT OF THE HEARING THIS MORNING

AT 9:30 WE  HAD A RATHER  LONG PRESENTATION OF THE BACKGROUND

AND THE REASONS WE ARE HERE.   LOOKING  AROUND THE ROOM,  IT

LOOKS  LIKE  1  AM SEEING  FAMILIAR FACES.  IF THERE IS ANY

NEED TO,  WE CAN REPEAT  PART OF THAT.   BUT IN THE INTEREST

OF TIME,  1  WOULD REFRAIN FROM DOING SO UNLESS SOMEBODY  WANTS

TO KNOW WHAT THIS HEARING IS ALL  ABOUT.

             ALL RIGHT,  WE DO HAVE  A COUPLE OF ANNOUNCEMENTS

TO MAKE HERE, HOUSEKEEPING SORT OF THINGS.  A REQUEST  HAS
15 I BEEN  MADE AS TO  HOW A COPY OF  THIS RECORD  CAN  BE  REVIEWED
   i
16  LOCALLY.   ORDINARILY, THE AGENCY  ONLY HAS  COPIES  IN ITS

17  REGIONAL OFFICE,  BUT A DECISION HAS BEEN MADE  THAT AN EXTRA

18  COPY  WILL BE PREPARED AND MADE  AVAILABLE IN  THE  CARSLBAD

19  CITY  LIBRARY.   IT WILL TAKE  ABOUT TWO WEEKS.   LET'S SAY

20  ABOUT TWO WEEKS  TO GET IT PREPARED, READY, AND AVAILABLE

21  AND DOWN TO YOU.   WE WILL UNDERTAKE TO DO  THIS.

22               WE  HAVE QUITE A  NUMBER OF CARDS  TO BE HANDLED

23  HERE.  AND AS  IT WAS ANNOUNCED AND RECORDED  IN OUR LITTLE

24 i HANDOUT, WHEN WE HAVE A  LARGE  NUMBER OF  PEOPLE IN ONE GROUP

25  AS  AGAINST THE  OTHER GROUPS, WE WILL DOUBLE  UP ON THAT GROUP

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 1 j SO,  DURING THE AFTERNOON WE WILL  DOUBLE UP ON THE  UNAFFILIATEQ




 2  PRIVATE  CITIZENS  AND TAKE TWO  OF  THOSE TO ONE OF  THE  OTHERS.  j




 3  WE WILL,  HOWEVER,  TRY TO OTHERWISE  KEEP IT TO THE  ORDER OF




 4  PROCEEDINGS THAT  WAS PREVIOUSLY  ANNOUNCED.




 5               YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS YOU WANT TO  RESPOND TO?




 6               MR. COVINGTON:  FOR  FURTHER CLARIFICATION:  WE




 7  HAVE  RECEIVED  FROM A FEW OF YOU  SOME WRITTEN QUESTIONS WHICH




 8  WE WANT  TO GET TO AND ANSWER.  AS WE HAVE EXPLAINED PRE-




 9  V10USLY,  WE WILL  NOT ATTEMPT  TO  ON THE RECORD ANSWER YOUR




10  SEVERAL  INDIVIDUAL QUESTIONS  THAT HAVE COME  UP.   WE ARE FOR




11  THE  PURPOSE OF THE RECORD GETTING YOUR SPECIFIC  TESTIMONY




12  TO ENABLE US TO MAKE THE BEST  POSSIBLE DECISION..   WE WILL




13  LATER IN THE AFTERNOON TAKE ANOTHER BREAK, AND  I  WILL EXTEND




14  THE  INVITATION ONCE AGAIN FOR  THOSE OF YOU WHO  HAVE QUESTIONS




15  TO SORT  OF GATHER AROUND HERE.   AND IF WE CAN  THEN ANSWER




16  YOUR QUESTIONS, WE WILL DO SO.




17               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU.




18               THE NEXT CARD I HAVE IS MR. STANLEY  WALLEN.




19  MR.  STANLEY WALLEN OF LEUCAD1A,  CALIFORNIA,  REPRESENTING





20  HIMSELF.




21                I  SEE NO RESPONSE.   WE WILL CALL THESE CARDS





22  AGAIN.




23               THE NEXT CARD IS  MR.  MARK  NELSON,  CARLSBAD,




24  REPRESENTING CARLSBAD COMMUNITY  CAUSE.




25               MR. NELSON:  MR.  WALKER, AS  I  INDICATED THIS

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25
                                                               75
MORNING, WE  WANTED TO HAVE  VICKY ZAMORA SPEAK NEXT  FROM OUR




GROUP.




             CHAIRMAN'WALKER:   EXCUSE ME?




             MR. NELSON:   AS i  TOLD YOU, WE  WANT  TO  HAVE




VICKY  ZAMORA AS OUR  NEXT  SPEAKER.




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THAT'S CORRECT,  YOU DID.




             VICKY ZAMORA,  THE OTHERS ARE  DEFERRING  TO YOU.




             WOULD YOU  STATE YOUR FULL  NAME  AND WHERE YOU'RE




FROM  FOR THE RECORD.




             MS. ZAMORA:   MY NAME is  VICKY ZAMORA, AND  i  LIVE




AT  3557 MADISON STREET IN CARLSBAD.   I  AM SPEAKING ON  BEHALF




OF  THE RESEARCH TEAM OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY  CAUSE.  THE




RESEARCH TEAM  IS  A  12-MEMBER FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE THAT




HAS MET WEEKLY SINCE OCTOBER 1974.   OUR RESEARCH CENTERS




AROUND THE EFFECTS  THE REFINERY  WILL HAVE ON OUR CITY  AND




COUNTY.  AND AS A RESULT OF OUR RESEARCH, AND AS A MEANS




OF  INFORMING THE  PUBLIC, WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL FACT  SHEETS




PRINTED FOR PUBLIC DISTRIBUTION.   I  WOULD LIKE  TO  ENTER




THE FACT SHEETS  INTO THE PUBLIC RECORD AT THIS  TIME.




             THE  RESEARCH TEAM  FULLY ENDORSES THE RESOLUTION




 THAT CARLSBAD  COMMUNITY  CAUSE  WILL PRESENT, AND STRESSES A




 NEED FOR A  DELAY  IN THE  EPA  PERMIT DECISION.  A DECISION




 BY YOUR AGENCY SHOULD BE BASED SOLELY  UPON  THE  MOST  RECENT




 AND REALiABLE  INFORMATION.   AT PRESENT,  YOU ARE BASING  YOUR




 TENTATIVE  APPROVAL  UPON  INSUFFICIENT,  OUTDATED  INFORMATION

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                                                                 76
  1  AND  ASSUMPTIONS.   THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL  DISTRICT IS

  2  PREPARING A MORE  ACCURATE AIR  ANALYSIS AT THIS  TIME, AS YOU

  3  HEARD FROM MR.  SOMMERVILLE.  AND WE ALSO ENDORSE  THEIR REQUEST
                                                                      I
  4  FOR  A DELAY IN  YOUR DECISION.                                   j

  5               ALSO,  U.C.  SAN  DIEGO PROFESSOR KENT WILSON IS
                                                                      I
  6  DEVELOPING A 'STATISTICAL MODEL FOR THE PREDICTION OF AREA-

  7  BY-AREA CHANGES  IN OX1DANT  AIR QUALITY RESULTING FROM

  8  STATIONARY SOURCES IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY.  HE  SHOULD ALSO BE

  9  CONSULTED BEFORE  A DECISION  IS MADE.

10               CARLSBAD IS IN  A DELICATE  LOCATION  WHERE AIR
]]  CONTAMINANTS ARE  CONCERNED.  THE DISPERSION  OF  ATMOSPHERIC

12  CONTAMINANTS IT  DETERMINED  MAINLY BY WINDS AND  THE HEIGHT
13  INTO WHICH CONTAMINANTS ARE MIXED.   WIND RECORDS FOR THE

14  AREA THUS FAR HAVE BEEN LIMITED TO THOSE MADE  OVER A FIVE-YEAF

15  PERIOD ALONG THE  COAST AT THE  CITY OF  OCEANSIDE DURING THE

16  YEARS 1934 TO  1938.   AND, MORE RECENTLY, A FIVE-YEAR STUDY

17  WAS  DONE AT PALOMAR AIRPORT EXCLUSIVELY FOR  THE AIRPORT

18  EXPANSION.  THOSE  STUDIES SHOW THAT CARLSBAD'S  WIND VELOCITY

19  1S  0 TO 4 KNOTS  PER HOUR 48.96 PERCENT OF THE  TIME AND 0 TO

20  13  KNOTS PER HOUR 96.63 PERCENT OF THE TIME.   1 HAVE ALSO
21  INCLUDED THE WIND ROSE CHART AS PART OF MY PRESENTATI ON INTO

22  THE  PUBLIC RECORD.
23               DURING THE MAJORITY OF THE YEAR,  THE MARINE AIR
24  LAYER IS SHALLOW  AND THE SEA BREEZE WEAK, THEREBY LESSENING

25  THE  MIXING VOLUME, AND RESULTING IN POOR DISPERSION OF
   I
   I

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 1   POLLUTANTS  AND AN EXTREME  POTENTIAL FOR  HIGH  AIR POLLUTION.

 2          .      IT HAS BEEN  RECORDED THAT  CARLSBAD HAS AIR

 3   INVERSION  340  -DAYS OUT OF  THE YEAR.  DR.  JOSEPH BEHAR,

 4   ASSISTANT  DIRECTOR OF THE  UNIVERSITY OF  CALIFORNIA'S PROJECT

 5   CLEAN AIR  HAS  STATED THAT  SAN DIEGO COUNTY IS MORE PRONE  TO

 6   AIR POLLUTION  THAN ANY OTHER SPOT  IN THE NATION BECAUSE OF

 7   THE UNIQUE  WEATHER CONDITIONS.  MAINLY THE AIR  INVERSION

 8   FACTOR.   BEHAR SAID THAT SAN DIEGO HAS MORE INVERSIONS  THAN

 9   LOS ANGELES.   HE ADDED THAT THE AREA SHOULD TAKE THE MOST

10   STRINGENT   ACTIONS TO KEEP DOWN THE EMISSION  OF POLLUTANTS

11   BY SEVERE  CONTROL OF STATIONARY SOURCES.
                                        •
12                AS A RESULT  OF THESE  UNIQUE  WEATHER CONDITIONS

13   IN SAN  DIEGO COUNTY FROM APRIL THROUGH JUNE 1974,  THE  FEDERAL

14   HEALTH  STANDARDS FOR OXIDANTS WERE EQUALED OR EXCEEDED  FOR

15   59 OUT  OF 90 DAYS.  YOUR OWN AGENCY, THE EPA, STATED AT THE

16   CLEAN AIR CONGRESS IN WASHINGTON,  D. C., THAT "SAN DIEGO

17   COUNTY  HAS THE HIGHEST  POTENTIAL  OF AIR POLLUTION  EPISODES

18   OF ANY  AIR BASIN  IN THE  NATION."

19                THE  RESEARCH TEAM ALSO FEELS THAT THE  EPA  HAS A

20   RESPONSIBILITY TO EXPLORE THE FEASIBILITY OF ALTERNATIVE

21   SITES WHERE THE  LAND  USE WOULD BE  MORE APPROPRIATE AND

22   POSSIBLY  THE AIR QUALITY  IMPACT  LESS.

23                IN CONCLUSION,  I  WOULD LIKE TO REMIND  YOU,  AS
   !
24   OFFICIALS OF THE EPA, .THAT,  IN A  SENSE,  YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE

25   FOR THE VERY AIR WE BREATHE.  TO  APPROVE THIS PERMIT  BASED ON

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 1   INADEQUATE DATA AND  FAULTY ASSUMPTIONS  IS TO CONTRIBUTE  TO

 2   THE DEGRADATION OF OUR AIR QUALITY AND,  THEREFORE,  OUR  VERY

 3   EXISTENCE.

 4              (APPLAUSE)

 5                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 6                DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?

 7                DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WISH  TO  OFFER TO US?

 8                A COPY OF MISS ZAMORA'S REMARKS AND ATTACHMENTS

 9   WILL BE MARKED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS  RECORD  AS EXHIBIT 18.

10                MR.  C. E.  KOOMS FROM PLAYA  AMEDA,  SAN DIEGO

11   BUILDING  TRADES.

12                NO APPARENT RESPONSE.

13                MR.  JOEL PRESCOTT OF CARLSBAD,  REPRESENTING

14   HIMSELF.

15                MR.  JAMES THOMAS.

16                TED  ACKERMAN.

17                MR.  ACKERMAN:   MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE

18   PANEL,  AT THIS  TIME, ON BEHALF OF  CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE,
   I
19   1  PRESENT THE  FOLLOWING RESOLUTION.

20                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  YOU  ARE FROM CARLSBAD,

21   CALIFORNIA?

22                MR.  ACKERMAN:   CARLSBAD,  CALIFORNIA.  .

23                SUBJECT:   REQUEST TO  THE  ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

24   AGENCY  FOR A DELAY  ON  A PERMIT  DECISION ON THE  PROPOSED

25   MACARIO OIL  REFINERY.

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                                                                 79
 1                WHEREAS,  A LOGICAL APPRAISAL OF THE  IMPACT  OF




 2   THE PROPOSED MACARIO  OIL REFINERY  UPON THE AIR QUALITY  OF




 3   CARLSBAD  AND NORTH  SAN DI'EGO COUNTY  TERRITORY IN  GENERAL




    SHOULD  INCLUDE THE  ADDITIVE IMPACT OF ALL OTHER  PENDING OR




 5   POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION SOURCES,  AND PARTICULARLY  THOSE




 6   RELATED TO THE OPERATION OF THE  PROPOSED REFINERY,  SUCH AS




    THE INCREASE  IN OIL DELIVERY AT  THE  ENCINA TANKER TERMINAL,




    ADDITIONS TO OIL TANK STORAGE  CAPACITY, INCREASE  IN POWER




    GENERATION AT THE ENCINA POWER PLANT, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT




10   OF  INDUSTRIES AT THE  PROPOSED  JAPATUL CORPORATION INDUSTRIAL




11   PARK  FOR  THE PURPOSE  OF PROCESSING OIL REFINERY  BY-PRODUCTS





12   AND




13                WHEREAS,  ADEQUATE  AND UNBIASED AIR  POLLUTION




14   ANALYSES  CONTINUE TO  _BE A PROBLEM EVEN WITH  THE  LONG-




15   ESTABLISHED PROGRAMS  IN AREAS  SUCH AS THE  LOS ANGELES  BASIN




16   AND




17                WHEREAS,  THE SAN  DIEGO AIR POLLUTI ON .CONTROL




18   DISTRICT  FULLY REALIZES THAT  THERE IS A NEED FOR A HIGHLY




19   DETAILED  AIR  POLLUTION ANALYSIS  PRIOR TO ANY PERMIT DECISION




20   ON  THE  PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY, AND  HAS THEREFORE




21   RECOMMENDED A DELAY BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION A*GENCY




22   ON  A  PERMIT DECISION UNTIL AFTER SUCH AN ANALYSIS CAN  BE





23   FINALIZED BY  THE APCD AND




24                WHEREAS,  CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE,  ON THE  BASIS




25   THAT  ENVIRONMENTAL  IMPACT  REPORTS MAY PROVIDE  INFORMATION

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                                                                 80
 1   IMPORTANT TO DECISION-MAKING,  QUESTIONS THE URGENCY  OF ANY




 2   AGENCY  MAKING A  PERMIT DECISION  ON A PROJECT  PRIOR  TO THE




 3   PREPARATION OF AN  ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT  AND  THE COMPLE-




 4   TION  OF PUBLIC HEARINGS ON SAID  REPORT AND




 5                WHEREAS,  PROPERTY  DAMAGE, CONSISTING  OF SPOTTING




 6   OF  AUTOMOBILE PAINT HAS OCCURRED AS A RESULT  OF AN  INCREASE




 7   IN  FALLOUT IN THE  VICINITY OF  AND FOR SOME  DISTANCE INLAND




 8   FROM  THE ENC1NA  POWER PLANT  SINCE UNIT NO.  4  WAS  PLACED  IN




 9   OPERATION, AND MAY BE AN  INDICATION THAT ADDITIONAL DAMAGING




10   FALLOUT MIGHT OCCUR FROM  THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY;




H                NOW,  THEREFORE,  BE IT RESOLVED  THAT  THE




12   ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION  AGENCY  BE REQUESTED  TO  DELAY A




13   PERMIT DECISION  ON THE PROPOSED MACARiO  OIL REFINERY  UNTIL




14   SUCH  TIME AS THE FOLLOWING  ITEMS HAVE BEEN  FINALIZED:




15                 1.   A CONSIDERATION TO THE  FULLEST PRACTICAL




16   EXTENT BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTECT I ON  AGENCY OF  THE




17   ADDITIVE  IMPACT  TO THE PROPOSED MACARIO  OIL REFINERY  AIR




18   POLLUTION OF ALL OTHER PENDING OR POTENTIAL AIR  POLLUTION




19   SOURCES,  AND PARTICULARLY THOSE RELATED TO  THE OPERATION OF




20   THE PROPOSED REFINERY, SUCH  AS THE INCREASE IN OIL  DELIVERY




21   AT  THE ENC1NA  TANKER  TERMINAL, ADDITIONS TO OIL  TANK  STORAGE




22   CAPACITY,  INCREASE IN  POWER  GENERATION  AT  THE.ENCINA  POWER




23   PLANT, AND THE  ESTABLISHMENT OF  INDUSTRIES  AT THE PROPOSED




24   JAPATUL  CORPORATION  INDUSTRIAL PARK  FOR THE PURPOSE OF




25   PROCESSING OIL  REFINERY  BY-PRODUCTS.

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                                                                     I
 1                2.   FINAL ANALYSIS  BY THE SAN  DIEGO  AIR POLLUTION ']
                                                                     i
 2   CONTROL DISTRICT ON THE HIGHLY  DETAILED AIR  POLLUTION ANALYSIS

 3   PROPOSED BY  THIS AGENCY.

 4                3.   MACARIO OIL  REFINERY ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT

 5   REPORT PREPARATION AND PUBLIC HEARING COMPLETION.

 6                4.   ANALYSIS  AND SOURCE DETERMINATION OF THE

 7   FALLOUT THAT HAS CAUSED PAINT DAMAGE TO AUTOMOBILES  IN THE

 8   VICINITY OF  AND FOR SOME  DISTANCE  INLAND  FROM THE ENCINA

 9   POWER PLANT  SINCE UNIT NO.  k WAS PLACED  IN OPERATION. A REPORT

10   ON THIS FALLOUT WILL  BE SENT TO  THE SAN  DIEGO AIR POLLUTION

11   CONTROL DISTRICT.

12                THIS RESOLUTION WAS  ADOPTED  BY CARLSBAD

13   COMMUNITY  CAUSE EXECUTIVE BOARD  ON  AUGUST THE 18TH,  1975,

14   AND WAS RATIFIED BY A MEETING OF THE  MEMBERS OF THE

15   ASSOCIATION  ON AUGUST THE 21ST,  1975.

16                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  THANK YOU,  MR. ACKERMAN.   DO

17   YOU WISH  TO  HAND  IN A COPY OF THE  RESOLUTION SO WE  CAN  MAKE

18   IT PART OF THE  RECORD?

19                MR.  ACKERMAN:  YES.

20                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  THANK YOU.

21                DO  YOU  HAVE A QUESTION, MR.  COVINGTON?

22                MR.  COVINGTON:   YES,  i  DO.
   i
23  |              CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   FOR  THE RECORD, THE RESOLUTION

24   WILL  BE  MARKED  EXHIBIT NO.  19.
   I
25  I              MR.  ACKERMAN:   NO.  19.  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

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                                                                82
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             MR. COV1NGTON:   MR. ACKERMAN,  ARE YOU AN




OFFICER  OF  THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY  CAUSE?




             MR. ACKERMAN:   YES, I  AM  A MEMBER OF THE  BOARD




OF DIRECTORS AND ACTING TREASURER.




             MR. COVINGTON:   i WANTED  TO KNOW THE CONTEXT




IN WHICH YOU WERE SPEAKING OR ASKING  QUESTIONS.




             TO YOUR  KNOWLEDGE, HAS THE ORGANIZATION HAD AN




OPPORTUNITY YET TO REVIEW THE TECHNICAL ANALYSIS AND  THE




MODELING THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS




UNDERTAKEN, AND HAVE  YOU DONE  IT WITH THOSE PEOPLE YOU FEEL




QUALIFIED TO CONDUCT  SUCH A REVIEW?




             MR. ACKERMAN:   THAT HAS BEEN A FUNCTION OF OUR




RESEARCH COMMITTEE,  AND WE DO HAVE QUALIFIED PEOPLE ON THAT




COMMITTEE THAT HAVE  CARRIED OUT THIS  STUDY.




             MR. COVINGTON:   WHAT  I'M  LOOKING FOR  IS -- AND




PERHAPS  YOU'RE NOT THE INDIVIDUAL  I  OUGHT TO ASK; BUT IF




YOUR  ORGANIZATION HAS REVIEWED OUR MODELING EFFORT AND OUR




ANALYSIS, DO YOU HAVE THE RESULTS  OF  THAT THAT YOU COULD




GIVE  TO  US  W.ITH SOME  PRECISION WHERE  YOU FEEL  IT'S  INADEQUATE,




IF  IT IS INADEQUATE?




             MR. ACKERMAN:   WELL,  ONLY IN THAT WE  FEEL VERY




MUCH  LIKE THE  FIRST  GENTLEMAN  THAT SPOKE THIS MORNING FROM




LEUCADIA, THAT THERE  ARE SO MANY  ADDITIVE SOURCES THAT ARE




NOT CONSIDERED WHEN  YOU'RE TAKING  YOUR REFINERY AS A  UNIT.




             MR. COVINGTON:  COULD  SOMEONE IN YOUR ORGANIZATION

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 1   BE MORE PRECISE?  WE FEEL,  FOR EXAMPLE, THAT  WE  HAVE




 2   RECOGNIZED  --  AND I'M NOT  ATTEMPTING TO GET  INTO A DEBATE ON




 3   THIS.  IT'S  NOT MY PURPOSE.   BUT RATHER WE HAVE  RECOGNIZED




 4   THE POTENTIAL  IMPACT OF  ENCINA ITSELF  IN  OUR  EFFORT, AND  I'M




 5   NOT SURE WHETHER THIS HAS  BEEN UNDERSTOOD BY  EVERYONE.




 6                MR.  ACKERMAN:   I  UNDERSTOOD THAT, IN TALKING




 7   PREVIOUSLY  WITH MR.  -SW1CKER,  YOU PEOPLE NATURALLY HAVE THE




 8   REFINERY AND ALL THE INFORMATION.  ALSO,  THE  ENCINA POWER




 9   PLANT.  YOU  HAD A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TANKER TERMINAL, BUT NO




10   PRECISE KNOWLEDGE.  AND  AS 1  UNDERSTAND  IT,  THERE WAS NOTHING




n   DONE  IN THE  WAY OF ADDITIONAL USE OF THE  TANKER  TERMINAL  IN




12   LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT YOU WILL HAVE ABOUT TWICE AS MANY




13   TANKERS COMING IN BECAUSE  OF THE REFINERY.




14                ALSO, THERE  WAS NOTHING -- NO CONSIDERATION,  AS




15   I  RECALL --  IN FACT, NO  KNOWLEDGE AT THE  TIME OF THE




16   INDUSTRIAL  PARK.




17                MR. COVINGTON:  i WANT TO  CONVEY TO YOU AND TO




18   ALL,  YOU KNOW, NO UNBENDING, UNYIELDING  PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP




19   WITH  RESPECT TO THE MODELING ANALYSIS  WHICH  WE HAVE DONE.




20   I  AM  MERELY EARNESTLY TRYING TO SOLICIT  FROM YOU OR ANYONE




21   WHO HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW  OUR TECHNICAL WORK




22   YOUR  CRITIQUE AS  TO WHETHER IT IS DEFICIENT   IN SOME RESPECT.




23   AND  IF YOU  HAVE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION,  WE CAN CONSIDER  IT.




24                WE HAVEN'T  RECEIVED ANYTHING  YET THAT  I KNOW  OF,




25   AND  I JUST  WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT.  AS AN OFFICER  OF  THE

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ORGANIZATION,  IF  YOU HAVE IT, CAN YOU TELL  ME  ABOUT  IT?




CAN YOU GET  IT  TO ME?




             MR. ACKERMAN:  I'M SURE WE  CAN  GET IT TO YOU.




AND I UNDERSTAND  THERE IS A  30-DAY PERIOD THAT WE HAVE,




AND WE WILL  ENDEAVOR TO GET  YOU THIS  INFORMATION.




             MR.  COVINGTON:   ONE LAST  QUESTION: • i TAKE IT




FROM THE  TONE  OF  SOME REMARKS THAT  I  HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING




THAT YOU'RE  RELYING -- OR I  WOULD  BE  LED TO BELIEVE YOU'RE




RELYING HEAVILY ON THE ANALYSIS DONE  BY THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY




APCD, WHICH  IS WELL AND GOOD.  DO  YOU KNOW WHAT THE




COMMUNITY CAUSE POSITION WOULD BE  IF  THAT ANALYSIS SHOULD




TURN OUT  TO  INDICATE NO  INTERFERENCE  WITH THE STANDARDS?




             MR. ACKERMAN:  WELL,  CERTAINLY, WE AT LEAST FEEL




THAT THE  ANALYSIS SHOULD BE  MADE  BECAUSE WE FEEL THAT RIGHT




NOW  THERE HASN'T BEEN PERHAPS AN  ADEQUATE APPRAISAL OF OUR




AIR  POLLUTION SITUATION  IN THIS  PARTICULAR BASIN.




             MR. COVINGTON:   i WAS  MERELY TRYING  TO ASCERTAIN




THE  EXTENT TO WHICH  YOU  WERE CONCERNED WITH AIR  POLLUTION AS




OPPOSED  TO OTHER FACTORS.



             MR. ACKERMAN:  WELL,  OF COURSE, AIR  POLLUTION  IS




THE  TOPIC OF THE DAY, AND  THIS  IS  WHAT  I TRIED TO CONFINE




MYSELF  TO.




            (APPLAUSE)




             MR.  COVINGTON:   THANK YOU,  MR. ACKERMAN.




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK YOU, MR.  ACKERMAN.

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                                                              85
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            MR. C. M.  LAFFOON  OF  MERRITT  LANE,  EL CAJON,
CALIFORNIA, AND YOU'RE  REPRESENTING  SAN  DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC.
            MR. LAFFOON:   MR.  CHAIRMAN,  MY NAME is
C.  M. LAFFOON.  I'M  A  SENIOR  VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE SAN DIEGO
GAS 5 ELECTRIC COMPANY.
            BEFORE  I PROVIDE  SOME BACKGROUND INFORMATION, I
WOULD LIKE THE RECORD,  HOWEVER,  TO EXPRESS MY SURPRISE,
SHOCK AND, YES, EVEN THE  INDIGNATION THAT AN OFFICIAL OF A
LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL  AGENCY IN  PRESENTING A STATEMENT IN A
PRESUMABLY OFFICIAL  CAPACITY  WOULD INCLUDE UNSUBSTANTIATED
ALLEGATIONS THAT  OUR COMPANY  ISSUES  FALSE INFORMATION WHEN
IT SUITS OUR  PURPOSES  TO  DO SO.
           CAPPLAUSE)
            MR. SOMMERVILLE:   CAN i  RESPOND  TO THAT?
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:   NOT AT THIS POINT.
           (APPLAUSE)
            WAIT  A  MINUTE.  LET'S LET THIS GENTLEMAN  MAKE
HIS  STATEMENT.   IF  YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO MAKE,  LET ME KNOW,
AND  WE  Wl LL. --
            MR.  SOMMERVILLE:   THE PROBLEM  is HERE:   IF THE
CHAIR ALLOWS  HIM  TO MAKE A CERTAIN STATEMENT
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:   i  REALIZE  THAT.
            MR.  SOMMERVILLE:   AND i WOULD  LIKE TO HAVE THAT
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:   WE WILL SEE  TO IT  THAT
EVERYBODY  GETS FAIR TREATEMENT.  NOW, LET  THE  GENTLEMAN

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                                                            86
MAKE HIS  STATEMENT, AND  WE WILL SEE WHAT  HAPPENS NEXT.




             MR.  LAFFOON:   TO GIVE YOU  BACKGROUND INFORMATION,




THE MACARIO REFINERY,  WHICH IS THE  SUBJECT OF THIS PROCEEDING




IS PART OF THE SAN  DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY'S LONG-RANGE




PROGRAM TO CARRY OUT  ITS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE FOR THE




COMMUNITY WHICH IT  SERVES, THE ENERGY  WHICH THE COMMUNITY




WISHES  TO HAVE.  EARLY IN 1970, OUR COMPANY VOLUNTARILY




CHANGED  ITS FUEL OIL  SUPPLY FROM WHAT  WAS THEN THE CALIFORNIA




DOMESTIC  SUPPLY TO  LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL,  WHICH WE ARE  NOW




USING.   IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT THAT  CHANGE, WE REQUESTED THE




AIR  POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT TO  IMPOSE A REGULATION




REQUIRING SUCH USE,  AND WE MADE  THAT REQUEST  IN ORDER  THAT




WE COULD  THEN COMPLY  WITH THE FEDERAL  IMPORT  REGULATIONS




WHICH  WERE REQUIRED IN ORDER  TO  PROCURE THAT  TYPE OF FUEL OIL.




AS HAS  BEEN STATED  HERE PREVIOUSLY, LOW-SULPHUR  FUEL OIL




AT THAT TIME, AND  STILL ESSENTIALLY TODAY, MUST BE




MANUFACTURED  FROM  LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL.  AND,  AS HAS  BEEN




MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, LOW-SULPHUR  CRUDE OIL EXISTS  IN  LIMITED




SUPPLIES  AND  IN DECREASING SUPPLIES.




             OUR COMPANY PURCHASED  THE  PROPERTY  ON WHICH THIS




REFINERY   IS PROPOSED TO BE BUILT IN THE EARLY 1970'S  IN ORDER




TO BE  PREPARED,  IF IT BECAME  NECESSARY, TO  INCLUDE  ON   IT




FUEL-PROCESSING  FACILITIES, AND  PERHAPS FACILITIES  TO   RECEIVE




AND  STORE  LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS.   AT THE  TIME,  THERE WAS  A




PROSPECT WE MIGHT  BE ABLE  TO  SECURE LIQUIFIED NATURAL  GAS

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                                                                 87
 1   FROM ALASKA.   AT THE  MOMENT IT DOES NOT  APPEAR WE WILL  BE




 2   ABLE TO  DO  SO DIRECTLY,  SO WE CURRENTLY  ARE NOT ACTIVELY




 3   ANTICIPATING  LNG STORAGE ON THIS SITE.




 4               AT THE TIME  OF THE PROPERTY  PURCHASE, THERE WAS




 5   EVERY  INDICATION THAT IN ORDER TO  CONTINUE TO QUALIFY  FOR




 6   RECEIVING  LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL THAT  IT  COULD WELL  BE




 7   NECESSARY  TO  ESTABLISH A FOREIGN TRADE  ZONE AT THIS  SITE,




 8   AND WE MADE PRELIMINARY  APPLICATION AND  INVESTIGATION  WITH




 9   THE COMMERCE  DEPARTMENT  TO RECEIVE SUCH  AN ASSIGNMENT.




10   HOWEVER, WE DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE THAT STEP AT THAT  TIME




I]   BECAUSE  WE  WERE ABLE  TO  SECURE BY  CONTRACT THE LOW-SULPHUR




\2   FUEL OIL RESIDUAL PRODUCT PRODUCED BY THE HAWAIIAN  INDEPENDENT




13   REF.INERY IN HONOLULU,  WHICH WAS THEN  NEAR1NG COMPLETION OF




14   ITS CONSTRUCTION.  AND WHEN IT WENT  INTO SERVICE,  ITS




15   RESIDUAL OUTPUT WAS DEVOTED EXCLUSIVELY  TO OUR SUPPLY.




16                WE WERE ALSO FORTUNATE AT THAT TIME TO  SECURE




17   A SECONDARY SOURCE OF LOW-SULPHUR  RESIDUAL FROM THE  TOSORO




18   REFINERY IN ALASKA.   THE COOK  INLET  CRUDE  IS LOW-SULPHUR.




19   IT'S DECLINING  IN QUANTITY, BUT  IT IS AT THE MOMENT  ONE OF




20   OUR SIGNIFICANT SUPPLIERS.




21                AS THE WORLD PICTURE CHANGED ON THE SUPPLY OF




22   CRUDE  OIL,  IT BECAME   INCREASINGLY APPARENT THAT  IF OUR




23   COMMUNITY  WAS TO HAVE A SECURED SUPPLY  OF  FUEL WE  HAD  TO




24   TAKE- SOME  ACTION TO PROTECT THE COMMUNITY'S INTEREST.




25               (LAUGHTER  BY ONE INDIVIDUAL)

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1               MR.  LAFFOON:   MAY I  PROCEED?
2               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  YOU MAY PROCEED.  GO AHEAD.
3               MR.  LAFFOON:   THERE ARE ESSENTIALLY NO FACILITIES
4  TO  TAKE  THE  CRUDE OIL WHICH  IS DUE TO COME  TO  THE WEST  COAST
5  IN  THE  1977-78 PERIOD FROM  THE NORTH SLOPE  OF  ALASKA, WHICH
6  HAS TOO  HIGH A SULPHUR CONTENT TO BE USED,  AND IT WAS THIS
7  MOTIVATION THAT LED US,  IN  ASSOCIATION  WITH PACIFIC  RESOURCES,
8  TO  CONDUCT AND INITIATE  THE  STUDY THAT  WE  ARE  DISCUSSING
9  HERE TODAY IN THE FORM OF THE MACARIO  REFINERY.
,0               WHEN WE PICKED  THE SITE  ON  THE BASIS  OF  THE
11  THEN-KNOWN KNOWLEDGE, WE WERE CONVINCED IN OUR MIND  THAT IT
12  WAS THEN AN APPROPRIATE  SITE FOR  A  FUEL-PROCESSING  FACILITY.
13  ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WITHIN OUR  ORGANIZATION WHEN WE LAUNCHED
14   THIS PROGRAM  IS WHAT SHALL  WE  CALL  IT?  BECAUSE,  AS  YOU
15   PROBABLY --  1 HOPE  YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED THIS IS A FUELS-
16
17
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25
PROCESSING FACILITY.   BUT  THERE WAS CONCERN IF WE CALLED IT
WHAT IT REALLY WAS  WE  WOULD BE ACCUSED OF DECEIT, AND SO WE
CHOSE TO CALL  IT  A  REFINERY.   BUT WE ARE INSISTENT THAT  ITS
PURPOSE IS DEDICATED TO PROVIDE CLEAN FUELS FOR THE SAN

DIEGO AREA.
             DURING  THE ENERGY CRISIS, WHICH WE HAVE JUST
COME THROUGH,  I  HOPE YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE SAN DIEGO GAS  £
ELECTRIC COMPANY  WAS RECOGNIZED BY THE REGULATORY AGENCIES,
FEDERAL AND  STATE,  AS BEING ONE OF THE FEW UTILITIES THAT  HAD
BEEN __ HAD  FORESIGHT TO SECURE ADEQUATE SUPPLIES.  AND  WE

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                                                                 89
 1  DID  HAVE AN ADEQUATE  SUPPLY DURING  THAT PERIOD WHEN  OTHER




 2  UTILITIES DID NOT.




 3               WE  FOUND  FROM THAT  EXPERIENCE THAT CONTRACTS




 4  ARE  VALUABLE BUT  CONTRACTS ARE  NOT  A COMPLETE ASSURANCE THAT




 5  ONE  WILL RECEIVE  THE  SUPPLY THAT IS COVERED  BY  IT,  AND WE




 6  HAD  EVERY REASON  TO BELIEVE THAT HAD THE CRISIS  GONE ON




 7  FURTHER, ALLOCATED FUEL WOULD HAVE  GONE TO OTHER AREAS.  IT




 8  IS  FOR THIS REASON THAT WE BELIEVE  THAT OUR  SERVICE  TERRITORY




 9  SAN  DIEGO, WHICH  IS COMPLETELY  DEVOID OF ANY LOCAL ENERGY




 10  SOURCE--SAN DIEGO HAS NO ENERGY SOURCE OF  ITS  OWN--THAT  IT




 11  WOULD BE WELL-SERVED BY HAVING  IN ITS AREA A FUEL-PROCESSING




 12  FACILITY OF THE TYPE THAT  IS  PLANNED HERE.




 13          .     THERE HAVE BEEN  SEVERAL QUESTIONS  RAISED TODAY




 14  CONCERNING THE  INDUSTRIAL  PARK, AND I WOULD  LIKE TO REFRESH




 15  YOUR MEMORY.   THE LOCATION  IN  WHICH THE  REFINERY WAS PROPOSED




 16  TO  BE BUILT WAS IN THE COUNTY.   WE  INITIATED ANNEXATION




 17  PROCEEDINGS TO  HAVE  IT ANNEXED  TO THE CITY  OF CARLSBAD.  AS




 18  WE  PROCEEDED  THROUGH THE  REGULATORY PROCESS  BEFORE THE  LOCAL




 19  AGENCY  FORMATION COMMISSION,  A COURT DECISION INFLUENCED




 20  AND RENDERED  AN OPINION  THAT IN ORDER  TO  ANNEX THAT PROPERTY




 21  WE  HAD  TO  HAVE  A PLAN  FOR  THE  TOTAL PROPERTY.




 22               A LARGE  PORTION  OF THE  PROPERTY  IS CURRENTLY




'23  WITHIN  THE  CITY OF CARLSBAD.   WE HAVE  PROCEEDED TO DEVELOP




 24  A PLAN  FOR  THE  REMAINING  PROPERTY,  WHICH  HAS BEEN REFERRED




 25   TO AS AN  INDUSTRIAL  PARK.   THIS  IS  AN  EFFORT TO COMPLY  WITH

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                                                                 90
 1  THE  REGULATIONS.   I  WOULD REMIND YOU THAT THE  PROPERTY WHICH




 2  IS BEING PLANNED  FOR IS WITHIN  THE CITY OF CARLSBAD,  AND




 3  NOTHING CAN BE  BUILT ON THAT  INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT DOES NOT




 4  MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE  CITY OF CARLSBAD.




 5               THERE  IS ONE OTHER  FACTOR I WOULD  LIKE TO HAVE




 6  YOU  KEEP IN MIND.   THERE WAS  A  MENTION OF THE  FACT THAT




 7  PERHAPS THE REFINERY SHOULD USE FOR ITS OWN PURPOSES  THE




 8  SYNTHETIC NATURAL  GAS THAT MIGHT BE PRODUCED.   WE ARE ALL




 9  AWARE  OF THE DECREASING SUPPLY  OF NATURAL GAS,  AND THE




10  STATE  AND FEDERAL  ORGANIZATIONS ARE GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS




11   NOW  OF ESTABLISHING PRIORITIES  TO DETERMINE WHO IN FACT IS




12  GOING  TO RECEIVE  NATURAL GAS.   ONE OF THE CRITERIA THAT IS




13   GENERALLY USED  IN  MAKING THAT DETERMI NAT I ON  IS THAT THE




14  PERSON WHO CAN  WITH ONLY GREAT  DIFFICULTY USE  AN ALTERNATE




15   FUEL SHOULD CONTINUE TO RECEIVE NATURAL GAS.   BY AND LARGE




16   THIS PRODUCES FOR  THE DOMESTIC  CUSTOMER, THE HOUSEHOLD, THE




17   HIGHEST PRIORITY  FOR NATURAL  GAS.  THE HEAVY RESIDUAL FUEL




18   OILS THAT ARE PRODUCED ARE VERY DIFFICULT FOR  ANYBODY EXCEPT




19   AN  INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATION TO UTILIZE.  EVEN A DISTILLATE




20   BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT FOR A  HOUSEHOLDER TO USE.   THAT




21   PRIORITY WILL PROBABLY GO TO  INSTITUTIONS SUCH AS SCHOOLS,




22   LAUNDRIES, AND  OTHER GROUPS THAT CAN HANDLE THAT KIND OF A





23   FUEL.




24        •        SO, WHEN WE TALK  ABOUT ASSIGNING A PRIORITY TO




25   ONE  OR ANOTHER  USE,  WE HAVE TO  KEEP IN MIND THAT THE  CRITERIA

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                                                             91
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IS IN PART ECONOMIC BUT  IT  IS  ALSO  A  RECOGNITION  OF HOW THE



PARTICULAR FUEL CAN BE USED.



            MR. CHAIRMAN,  I  BELIEVE THAT COVERS THE HIGHLIGHTS),



AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO RESPOND TO QUESTIONS IF YOU HAVE SOME.



            CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU, MR.  LAFFOON.



            DO YOU HAVE  SOME QUESTIONS?



            MR. COVINGTON:   YES.



            MR. LAFFOON,  I  WOULD  LIKE TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE



SIT BETTER WHAT YOUR SERVICE AREA IS  AND HOW IT RELATES TO



THE SAN DIEGO  AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR



WITH THAT BOUNDARY.  ARE THEY CO-TERMINUS?  WOULD THEY



ESSENTIALLY COVER THE  ENTIRE COUNTY WITH YOUR AIR REGION?



            MR. LAFFOON:   IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR



SERVICE TERRITORY, WHICH IS SAN DIEGO COUNTY WITH A SMALL



PORTION OF ORANGE COUNTY, ESSENTIALLY COVERS THE SAME



GEOGRAPHICAL AREA AS  THE SAN DIEGO REGIONAL AIR POLLUTION




CONTROL AREA.



            MR. COVINGTON:  DO YOU GENERATE YOUR ENTIRE



NEEDS  HERE?   DO YOU  GENERATE  FOR EXPORT, DO YOU  IMPORT?



            MR.  LAFFOON:  WE ARE A NET  IMPORTER.   ALL  OF OUR




FUEL  IS  IMPORTED.   IT  EITHER  COMES IN  THE  FORM OF  NATURAL



GAS,  WHICH ARRIVES  BY  PIPELINE,  OR IT  COULD BE  IN  THE  FORM



OF DISTILLATE  FUEL,  WHICH COULD  ARRIVE  EITHER  BY  PIPELINE



 IN THE STANDARD PRODUCTS PIPELINE  FROM  THE LOS ANGELES  AREA,



OR BY  TANK  SHIP TO  THE OFF-LOADING TERMINAL HERE  AT  CARLSBAD,

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                                                             92
OR TO THE  PORT OF  SAN  DIEGO.  THE  RESIDUAL FUEL  IS ALL




IMPORTED.




             WE DO  RECEIVE FROM TIME  TO TIME, AS  NATURE




PERMITS,  SOME ELECTRICAL ENERGY  SUPPLY FROM THE  NORTHWEST,




THE COLUMBIA RIVER GENERATION SOURCE,  AND SOME FROM  THE




NORTHERN  CALIFORNIA AREA, THE PACIFIC  GAS AND ELECTRIC




TERRITORY.   WHEN THEY  HAVE SURPLUSES  IN WET WINTERS,  AS  THE




LAST TWO  WINTERS HAVE  BEEN, THEN  BECAUSE OF OUR  PARTICIPATION




IN THE  PACIFIC NORTHWEST INTERT1E, WE  HAVE AN ENTITLEMENT TO.




TRANSMISSION CAPACITY,  AND WE DO  IMPORT ENERGY.




             THE ONLY  ENERGY THAT  WE  GENERATE THAT  IS  EXPORTED




AND THIS  IN NET IS AN  IMPORT, BUT  WE  DO GENERATE OFF  PEAK A




SMALL QUANTITY OF  ENERGY THAT IS  SUPPLIED TO THE STATE  WATER




PROJECT,  WHICH IS  USED TO PUMP THE WATER FROM NORTHERN




CALIFORNIA TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA  FOR  USE IN THIS  AREA  AND




THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA REGION.   BUT  AT THE MOMENT WE RECEIVE




MORE FROM  OUT OF THE  AREA THAN WE  SUPPLY.




             MR. COVINGTON:  SO,  IT'S  NOT PRINCIPALLY  A




GENERATING BASE FOR SERVING AREAS  OUTSIDE OF THE AIR  QUALITY




CONTROL REGION?




             MR. LAFFOON:  IT  is  NOT.




             MR. COVINGTON:  CAN  YOU  GO BACK A MOMENT  TO  YOUR




COMMENTS  ABOUT THE SITE.  THERE  WAS  EARLIER THIS MORNING--AND




I DON'T  KNOW IF YOU WERE PRESENT  AT THE- T I ME--SOME  CONCERNS




EXPRESSED  ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY  OF SATELLITE INDUSTRIES

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                                                                 93
 1  DEVELOPING THERE AND  THE POSSIBLE  CUMULATIVE EFFECT  THAT

 2  MIGHT  HAVE ON AIR  POLLUTION.  CAN  YOU ENLIGHTEN US ANY

 3  FURTHER  AS TO THE  LIKELIHOOD OF THAT,  OR ARE THERE FIRM

 4  PLANS  THAT THE COMPANY  HAS, OR WHERE  ARE YOU?

 5               MR. LAFFOON:  WELL, AS  i  INDICATED BEFORE, THE

 6  PROPERTY WAS PURCHASED  AS ITS PRIMARY PURPOSE SERVING THE

 7  UTILITY  FUEL NEED.  AS  WE DESIGNED  THE REFINERY,  IT  APPEARED

 8  THAT ALL THE PROPERTY WE HAD TO ACQUIRE FOR THAT  WAS NOT

 9  REQUIRED FOR THAT  SERVICE.  THE INDUSTRIAL PARK,  AS  PLANNED,

10  DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE  HAVING ANY CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH

11  THE REFINERY.  IT  IS  NOT INTENDED  TO- USE THE OUTPUT  FROM

12  THE REFINERY, IT IS NOT INTENDED TO  HAVE ANY PETROCHEMICAL

13  INDUSTRIES OR ANY  KIND  OF INDUSTRY  OF THAT SORT.   IT  IS

14  INTENDED,  IF WE CAN CONTROL THE DESTINY, TO BE A  HIGH-QUALITY

15  SCIENTIFIC-TYPE LOCATION FOR INDUSTRY THAT IS COMPATIBLE WITH

16  THE COMMUNITY AND  IS  DESIGNED BY THE  COMMUNITY.

17               BUT TO WHAT EXTENT THE  CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH

18  THE AIRPORT WILL PERMIT IT TO SUPPLEMENT THE AIRPORT AND

19  HAVE A SYNERGiSTIC EFFECT BETWEEN  THE AIRPO.RT AND  THE

20  INDUSTRIAL PARK,  IT'S TOO EARLY TO  PREDICT.  BUT  WE  ARE NOT

21   ATTEMPTING TO SET  UP  A  PETROCHEMICAL  COMPLEX IN ANY  WAY.

22               MR.  COVINGTON:  THAT'S  THE COMPANY'S  THINKING

23  AND, AS  1  UNDERSTAND  IT, IN A PLANNING SENSE, AND  THIS IS
   I
24  STILL  SUBJECT TO PENDING ANNEXATION,  THE DECISION  OF THE

25  CITY FATHERS HERE AS  TO WHAT PRECISELY DEVELOPS;  IS  THAT

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1  CORRECT?
2               MR. LAFFOON:   YES.   AND TO THE  EXTENT  THAT WE
3  CAN  ATTEMPT TO INTERPRET  WHAT THE IR ' DESI RES  AND  WISHES ARE.
4               MR. COVINGTON:   i HAVE NO OTHER QUESTIONS.
5               MR. SWICKER:   i  HAVE NO QUESTIONS.
6               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  THANK YOU  VERY MUCH.
7            .  (APPLAUSE)
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             AS  FAR AS OUR PROCEDURAL PROBLEM, MR.  SOMMERVILLE
YOU SPOKE  THIS  MORNING.  YOU  CONSIDER YOURSELF OUTRAGED AT
THIS TIME,  BUT  WE HAVE SOME  35  PEOPLE WAITING TO  BE  HEARD.
IF YOU WISH TO  MAKE A RESPONSE,  1  WILL ALLOW YOU  PRECISELY
60 SECONDS AND  NOTHING MORE,  IF YOU WISH  TO  DO SO AT THIS
TIME..  BUT I WOULD HOLD  YOU  TO 60 SECONDS.
             MR. SOMMERVILLE:   THIS  MORNING,  WHEN  I SPOKE,
IT SEEMED THE EPA HAD  RECEIVED SOME  CERTAIN  INFORMATION
CONCERNING  FUEL AND  ITS  AVAILABILITY  IN  THE  FUTURE.   WE HAD
RECEIVED  INFORMATION  SOME  MONTHS AGO AS  WE WERE  REVIEWING
THE  ENCINA  POWER  PLANT.   THE INFORMATION DOES  NOT JIBE.   I
SAID AT THAT TIME  —  I'M NOT SURE  OF MY  EXACT WORDS, BUT  I'M
CERTAIN 1  INDICATED  FRUSTRATION  INASMUCH AS THERE WAS  TWO
DIFFERENT  PIECES  OF  INFORMATION.   I HAVE FOUND IT VERY
 FRUSTRATING DEALING  WITH SDGSE,  AND WE DID HAVE  SOME
 DIFFICULTY  IN  THE PAST.   I THOUGHT WE HAD SET IT  UP AND
 HAD -RECEIVED AND HAD BEEN COORDINATING,  AND THAT  I  DID HAVE

 THE RIGHT INFORMATION.

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                                                                 95
 1                IT'S JUST  FRUSTRATING TO GET  CERTAIN KINDS OF




 2   INFORMATION  AND THINK  YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON  IN  THE




 3   REGION AND MAKE CERTAIN  DECISIONS ON THAT INFORMATION AND




 4   THEN HAVE A  KIND OF  TURN-AROUND ON  YOU  A  LITTLE LATER.




 5   THEREFORE,  I  WASN'T  REALLY MAKING AN ALLEGATION --




 6                THAT'S 60  SECONDS?




 7                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THAT'S 60 SECONDS.




 8               (APPLAUSE)




 9                WE WILL  NOW  CALL TWO FROM  THE CITIZENS GROUP.




10   JOHN A.  GRAY,  LOS ROBLES DRIVE, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING




11   HIMSELF.




12                MR. GRAY:  MR. CHAIRMAN, THANK YOU  FOR ALLOWING




13   ME TO APPEAR BEFORE  YOU.  THESE REMARKS WERE PREPARED




14   SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU,  AND SO THE AUDIENCE IS GOING TO HAVE




15   TO BEAR  WITH ME BECAUSE  I'M TALKING TO  YOU ALL.




16                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THAT'S WHY  WE CAME.




17                MR. GRAY:  MY NAME  is JOHN  A. GRAY,   i LIVE  AT




18   5^51 LOS ROBLES DRIVE, CARLSBAD,  IN THE AREA CALLED




19   TERRAMAR.   1  AM A DIRECTOR OF THE TERRAMAR ASSOCIATION,  BUT




20   I'M SPEAKING AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN OF THE  CITY OF  CARLSBAD.




21                MEMBERS  OF THE TERRAMAR ASSOCI AT I ON.ARE  ALSO




22   OWNERS OF  RESIDENTIAL  PROPERTY, TAXPAYERS, AND  CLOSE




23   NEIGHBORS  OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS  AND  ELECTRIC COMPANY   ENCINA




24   THERMAL  POWER PLANT.   DURING MY FIVE YEARS' RESIDENCE  HERE,




25   I  HAVE LEARNED TO BE CAUTIOUS WHEN  THE  GAS COMPANY OFFERS  TO

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                                                                 96
 1  DO SOMETHING GOOD  FOR  ME, SUCH  AS  BUILD A REFINERY  IN MY CITY




 2  AND,  THEREFORE,  I  AM APPEARING  BEFORE YOU TODAY  TO  ASK YOU




 3  TO DEFER  YOUR DECISION TO PERMIT  THE MACARIO  INDEPENDENT




 4  REFINERY  TO BE BUILT  IN CARLSBAD.




 5               DEFER  IT,  GENTLEMEN,  UNTIL YOU HAVE  ACQUIRED A




 6  MORE  RELIABLE DATA BASE FOR THIS  VITAL DECISION.   YOUR




 7  DECISION  TO APPROVE THE DAILY ADDITION OF Ik  TONS  OF




 g  POLLUTANTS  TO OUR  AIR  MAY NOT BE  JUSTIFIED BY  THE  TRUE FACTS.




 9  THERE  IS  SOME DOUBT THAT THE FACTS WHICH YOU  HAVE  BEEN GIVEN




10  ARE THE  TRUE ONES.




11               FOR  INSTANCE, ONE OF  THE EXCUSES  FOR BUILDING




12  THIS  REFINERY IS THE  PROJECTED  SHORTAGE OF NATURAL  GAS.




13  THE U.  S.  BUREAU OF COMPETITION HAS ACCUSED THE  NATION'S




14  ELEVEN  LARGEST NATURAL GAS PRODUCERS OF UNDERESTIMATING THE




15  NATURAL  GAS RESERVES  OF OUR COUNTRY.  GENTLEMEN,  ARE YOU SURE




16  THERE WILL  BE A  NATURAL GAS SHORTAGE TO JUSTIFY  THIS REFINERY




17               ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR  BUILDING THE REFINERY IN




lg  CARLSBAD  IS A PROJECTED POPULATION GROWTH OF  50  PERCENT BY




19  1935.    THIS SPECTACULAR GROWTH WAS FORECAST  BY  AN  INTERESTED




20  PARTY,  THE  SAN DIEGO  GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY.   BUT  WILLARD




21  JOHNSON,  DIRECTOR  OF  THE POPULATION STUDY CENTER IN SAN DIEGO




22  SAID  SUCH  FORECASTS ARE WRONG AND  MISLEADING.  LAST YEAR,




23  HE SAID,  THE COUNTY GREW ONLY 2.2  PERCENT, AND HE  FORECASTS




24  AN INCREASE -OF ONLY  12 PERCENT  BY  1985.  "A 50 PERCENT GROWTH




25  RATE  IS  ABSURD," SAID  WILLARD JOHNSON.

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                                                                97
 1                GENTLEMEN,  DID  YOU USE THE WRONG AND MISLEADING




 2   GROWTH FIGURE  TO ARRIVE AT  YOUR CONCLUSIONS  THAT CARLSBAD




 3   SHOULD BE  INUNDATED WITH  14 TONS OF POLLUTANTS A DAY?




 4                WAS YOUR  DECISION INFLUENCED  BY  THE SAN DIEGO




 5   GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY'S  FORECAST OF  INCREASED ENERGY USE?




 6   THEY PROJECTED A 7 PERCENT  ANNUAL INCREASE  IN ENERGY USE.




 7   BUT, SAYS  DOUG LANDON OF  THE SAN DIEGO ENERGY COALITION,  THE




 8   COUNTY GREW  ONLY 2.2  PERCENT, NOT 7 PERCENT.  BESIDES THAT,




 9   THE CONSUMPTION OF OUR  GAS  COMPANY'S  ELECTRICITY ACTUALLY




10   FELL OFF BY  12,000,000  KILOWATT HOURS  LAST  YEAR.  NOW,  IF




11   SUCH BE THE  CASE, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE  OUTPUT OF THIS




12   REFINERY WILL  BE NEEDED TO  SUPPORT THE GAS  COMPANY  IN  1985?




13                BUT  IT'S  NOT  ONLY US PRIVATE  CITIZENS WHO  DOUBT




14   THESE PROJECTIONS ON  WHICH  YOUR DECISION  APPEARS TO BE  BASED.




15   OUR STATE  ENERGY COMMISSION STAFF QUESTIONS THE TECHNIQUES




16   USED BY THE  CALIFORNIA  PUBLIC UTILITIES  COMMISSION  TO  FORECAS




17   FUTURE NEEDS FOR ELECTRICITY.  MOREOVER,  THE  ENERGY COMMISSIO




18   FORECAST A DEMAND FOR 9 PERCENT LESS  ELECTRICITY IN  1984 THAN
19




20




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25
WAS FORECAST BY THREE  OF OUR PUBLIC  UTILITIES.   ONE  OF THOSE




THREE  PUBLIC UTILITIES WAS OUR OWN  SAN DIEGO GAS  £  ELECTRIC




COMPANY.   SO, GENTLEMEN, IF YOU  WERE USING EITHER PUC OR




GAS COMPANY PROJECTIONS TO DECIDE  CARLSBAD NEEDED A  REFINERY,




THE STAFF  OF THE  CALIFORNIA ENERGY  COMMISSION  DISAGREES WITH





YOU.-




             NOW,  BESIDES QUESTIONING THE PREMISES UPON WHICH

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YOU BASED  YOUR DECISION,  GENTLEMEN,  I  ALSO INVITE YOU  TO




CONSIDER SOME SMOG  PROBLEMS WHICH  THIS PROPOSED REFINERY




WILL CREATE.   CONSIDER  THE FUMES VENTED FROM THE HOLDS  OF




THE BARGES WHICH COME  TO  THE ENCINA  MARINE TERMINAL  TO




BACKLOAD OIL FROM THE  STORAGE TANKS  AND CARRY  IT TO  SAN DIEGO




WHEN THAT  OIL GOES  INTO THOSE TANKS,  THE FUMES COME  OUT,  AND




THE POLLUTED SEA BREEZE BLOWS RIGHT  ACROSS OUR SEASIDE




COMMUNITY  OF TERRAMAR.




             CONSIDER  THE  FUMES  EMITTED BY THE  SATELLITE




PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES  WHICH  WILL  SPRING UP  AROUND THAT




REFINERY.   YOU MAY  SAY, "WHAT HAVE WE TO DO WITH THOSE?




NOBODY  HAS ASKED OUR  PERMISSION FOR  PETROCHEMICAL  POLLUTION."




AND  1 WILL ANSWER THAT QUESTION,  GENTLEMEN.   IF ONE  HEAVY




INDUSTRY,  SUCH AS THIS REFINERY,  IS  ALLOWED TO POLLUTE OUR




AIR, THEN  HOW CAN YOU DENY OTHERS  AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO




DO SO?




             LASTLY, GENTLEMEN,  CONSIDER WHAT  WILL  HAPPEN  IF




THIS REFINERY GOES  INTO OPERATION  AND FAILS TO COMPLY WITH




YOUR REQUIREMENTS.   UP IN  YOUR  NEIGHBORHOOD,  THE  BEN1C1A.




REFINERY  HAS BEEN CITED REPEATEDLY FOR POLLUTION  VIOLATIONS.




NOW,  I  AM  TOLD THAT OUR STATE  LAW  HAS A MAXIMUM  PENALTY OF




$500 PER  DAY FOR  POLLUTION.  NOW,  THAT'S  PEANUTS  TO A MULTI-




MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION.  THEY  CAN GO  RIGHT AHEAD




VIOLATING  YOUR LAW, SHELLING OUT $500 A DAY,  STILL MAKE A




PROFIT, AND YOU  CAN'T STOP THEM UNLESS, OF COURSE,  YOU DENY

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                                                                 99
 1   THEM THIS  PERMIT TO  BEGIN WITH.




 2                NOW, GENTLEMEN, I ASK  THAT YOU CONSIDER  CAREFULLY




 3   WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO  DO.  ONCE  THE  DAMAGE IS DONE,  IT CAN'T




 4   BE REPAIRED.  ITS LONG-RANGE  IMPLICATIONS ARE HORRENDOUS.




 5   PLEASE  CHECK YOUR BASIC PREMISES.   GET MORE RELIABLE,  GET




 6   LESS BIASED INFORMATION OF YOUR  OWN  BEFORE YOU  DECIDE  TO




 7   FOIST THIS REFINERY  UPON OUR  BEAUTIFUL LITTLE SEASIDE  TOWN.




 8                THANK YOU.




 9               (APPLAUSE)




10                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   DO YOU HAVE A COPY  OF  YOUR




1]   STATEMENT?




12                MR. GRAY:   YES, SIR.




,3                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   WOULD YOU  LIKE  TO LEAVE  IT FOR




14   US SO WE  CAN INCORPORATE IT  IN  THE RECORD?  THANK YOU  VERY





15   MUCH.




lg            •   MR. GRAY'S STATEMENT WILL BE MARKED FOR  THE




17   PURPOSE OF THIS RECORD EXHIBIT  NO. 20.




18                I  NEXT HAVE MR. WILLIAM KAPLAN, JEWELL STREET,




19   SAN  DIEGO, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.




20                MR. KAPLAN:  MY NAME IS WILLIAM KAPLAN,  AND  I




21   LIVE AT 3932 JEWELL  STREET  IN SAN DIEGO  92109.   1 AM A




22   CHEMICAL ENGINEER BOTH BY  EDUCAT1 ON -AND  BY EXPER1ENCE, HAVING




23   HAD  SOME 40-ODD YEARS  IN THE  PETROLEUM  INDUSTRY WORKING  FOR





24   TWO  DIFFERENT COMPANIES.




25                THE WORK I DID  RELATED TO ALL  FACETS  OF  REFINERY

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OPERATIONS,  FROM PILOT  PLANT RESEARCH,  REFINERY OPERATIONS,




ENGINEERING  DESIGN,  PROCESS DESIGN,  TECHNICAL SERVICE  IN THE




REFINERY,  AUTOMOTIVE.RESEARCH, AND  TECHNICAL ADVICE  IN THE




MARKETING  DEPARTMENT.




             ABOUT  SIX MONTHS AGO  A  CENTURY  3-C  REPRESENTATIVE




ASKED  ME  TO  ATTEND A MEETING AT  BALBOA PARK TO  ANSWER SOME




QUESTIONS  THAT WERE OF SOME CONCERN TO SOME CARLSBAD CITIZENS




THESE  QUESTIONS  RELATED TO THE  PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY.   1




TOLD  THEM IN EFFECT THAT  IT WAS  POSSIBLE.TO HAVE  A CLEAN




REFINERY  BUT THAT  NO JUDGMENT  WAS POSSIBLE  WITH REGARD  TO




MACARIO WITHOUT  DETAILED  KNOWLEDGE  OF THE PROCESSING SCHEME,




WHICH PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE AVAILABLE UNTIL  THE  ENVIRONMENTAL




IMPACT REPORT WAS  PREPARED.   WHEN SUCH A  REPORT WAS AVAILABLE




I  OFFERED TO HELP  AND REVIEW  IT,  AND THAT I  WOULD BE  IN A




BETTER POSITION  TO GIVE AN  OPINION ON THE ADEQUACY OF  THE




PROPOSAL FROM AN AIR POLLUTION STANDPOINT.




              SIX  WEEKS AGO I  RECEIVED NOTICE OF A MEETING OF




THE ATTORNEY  GENERAL'S  ORANGE-SAN  DIEGO  COUNTIES' ENVIRONMENT




TASK FORCE  AT  THE  UNIVERSITY  OF  CALIFORNIA, IRVINE  CAMPUS.




ONE OF THE  ITEMS ON  THE AGENDA WAS  EPA'S  APPROVAL OF  THE




 PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY FROM AN  AIR  QUALITY  STANDPOINT.




 IN OTHER WORDS,  TO  BECOME PREPARED  FOR  THIS MEETING.




              MR.  BRUCE  BEAN,  THE  PROJECT  MANAGER, WAS  CONTACTED




 AND HE SENT ME  PRELIMINARY INFORMATION  ABOUT THE PROCESSING





 SCHEME WHICH WAS  USED  AS  A BASIS FOR  REMARKS I MADE  AT THE
L

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                                                                 101
ATTORNEY  GENERAL'S TASK FORCE MEETING ON JULY  24TH.   AT THAT




MEETING  IT WAS FINALLY VOTED THAT  APPROVAL BE  GRANTED IF




THE BEST  AVAILABLE  TECHNOLOGY  IS  USED.




             THE  INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO ME HAS  BEEN STUDIED,




AND IT  IS MY BELIEF THAT THE BASIC PROCESSING  SCHEME




INCORPORATES THE  BEST AVAILABLE  TECHNOLOGY TODAY.   I ALSO




BELIEVE  THAT EPA'S  CONDITIONAL  IMPACT APP'RAISAL  IS  SOUND,




BUT THERE WILL BE  AN OVERALL DECREASE OF POLLUTANTS WITHIN




THE SAN  DIEGO AIR  QUALITY CONTROL  REGION OVER  WHAT  WOULD BE




EXPECTED  IF OTHER  ALTERNATE AVAILABLE FUELS ARE  USED.




             NOW,  THE POLLUTANT  THAT'S PROBABLY MOST




CONTROLLABLE IS  SULPHUR OXIDES,  AND THE TWO MOST POPULAR




WAYS  TO  ATTACK THIS PROBLEM ARE,  FIRST, BY  INSTALLING




SCRUBBERS IN STACKS OR, TWO, BY  REMOVING THE  SULPHUR  FROM




THE PRODUCTS BEFORE THEY'RE BURNED.  NOW,  SCRUBBING




TECHNOLOGY IS CURRENTLY UNDER  INTENSIVE STUDY, AND -THERE  IS




SOME  INDICATION  THAT IT CAN BE  IN USE  IN A  LOT OF PLACES,




BUT THERE ARE PROBLEMS TO BE SOLVED  IN  THE  DISPOSAL OF THE




CALCIUM  SULPHATE  SLUDGES.   IN  SUCH A REFINERY, ANY RESIDUAL




FUEL  SOLD TO OTHERS WOULD HAVE  TO BE SCRUBBED IN THE  VARIOUS




STACKS  IN WHICH  THE HIGH-SULPHUR FUEL  IS BURNED.




             ON THE OTHER HAND,  THE REMOVAL  OF SULPHUR DURING




PROCESSING OF THE CRUDE PRODUCES LOW-SULPHUR  PRODUCTS THAT




CAN BE  USED ANYWHERE.  NOW, THESE HYDROGENATI ON PROCESSES




FOR REMOVING SULPHUR ARE FLEXIBLE AND  THEY  ARE SUBJECT TO

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                                                                 102
IMPROVEMENT  IN TIME  IN  THE CATALYST  TECHNOLOGY AND  FOR




EFFECTIVE  SULPHUR REMOVAL IN THE  FUTURE.   MUCH AS GASOLINE




OCTANE WILL  IMPROVE  THROUGH THE DEVELOPMENT OF NEWER




CATALYSTS.




             THERE IS  ALSO THE  FLEXIBILITY IN  THE  USE  OF




LONGER RESIDENCE TIME BY ADDING REACTORS TO THIS  EQUIPMENT




OR BY  INCREASING TEMPERATURES  IF  IN  THE FUTURE LOWER-SULPHUR




CONTENTS  ARE DICTATED.   IN OTHER  WORDS, YOU GOT  A FLEXIBILITY




HERE WITH RESPECT TO SULPHUR CONTENT THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE




IN A LOT  OF OTHER SCHEMES.  AND THE  EXTRACTION SYSTEM FOR




EXTRACTING THE HYDROGEN SULPHIDE  FROM ALL THE HYDROGENATI ON




UNITS  IS  A KNOWN TECHNOLOGY.   MANY SUCH HYDROGEN SULPHIDE




REMOVAL  SYSTEMS  USING THE DIETHYLNOL MEANS  HAVE  BEEN IN





OPERATION FOR  40 YEARS.




             NOW, AS  I UNDERSTAND  IT, THE  PURPOSE OF THIS




MEETING  RELATES  TO  AIR QUALITY,  SO  I CANNOT OFFER ANY




COMMENTS  ON THE  BASIS OF  WATER QUALITY, WASTE,  CHEMICAL




DISPOSAL, AND  THESE  SORT  OF  THINGS WHICH  ARE  VERY COMMON  IN




AN  OIL REFINERY.   BUT THERE  IS ONE  FURTHER  COMMENT I WOULD




LIKE  TO MAKE  THAT  CONCERNS  THINGS THAT ARE  NOT  PRESENT  IN




THIS  REFINERY.   REFINERIES  HAVE BEEN MADE.-- REFERENCES




HAVE  BEEN MADE TO  WHAT  HAS  HAPPENED  IN.OTHER REFINERIES.




 IN  A  TYPICAL  GASOLINE REFINERY, CATALYTIC CRACKING UNITS  ARE




USED,  AND THEY PRESENTED  MANY  PROBLEMS  FROM A NOISE POLLUTION




STANDPOINT  OR  PARTICULATE MATTER, ALTHOUGH  MOST OF THESE

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                                                                103
ARE SOLVED  AT THE PRESENT TIME.




             THEY ALSO  HAVE A HIGH CARBON  MONOXIDE PROBLEM.




NO SUCH  UNIT IS PRESENT  IN THIS REFINERY.   A NUMBER OF




TREATING SYSTEMS ARE  USED IN -- FOR  REMOVAL OF THE SULPHUR




COMPOUNDS,  WHICH ARE  VERY ODOROUS  IN AN ORDINARY GASOLINE




REFINERY.   AS FAR AS  1  CAN TELL, THERE  IS NO SUCH SYSTEM




REQUIRED HERE.  NO  COKING UNIT, WHICH IS  RATHER COMMON  IN  A




LOT OF  REFINERIES.   YOU HAVE NO COKING  UNIT HERE.




             MANY OTHER PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO




WITH  RESPECT TO ORDINARY REFINERIES  JUST WON'T APPLY  TO THIS




MACARIO REFINERY.




              I REPEAT THAT I  THINK  THE BASIC TECHNOLOGY  IS




THERE,  IT'S  THE BEST THAT COULD BE  USED,  BUT DETAILED




STUDIES HAVE TO BE  MADE OF ALL THE  NUTS AND BOLTS  AND THE




SMALL LITTLE THINGS THAT GO  TO MAKE  UP A COMPLETE  SYSTEM,




AND  THESE ARE THE  THINGS YOU ARE  GOING TO HAVE  TO  WATCH FOR




VERY  CAREFULLY  BEFORE A  FINAL  APPRAISAL CAN BE  MADE.    I THINK




THIS  HEARING  IS  JUST A BEGINNING  IN REACHING THAT  DECISION.




              THANK  YOU.




             (APPLAUSE)




              CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK YOU, MR.  KAPLAN.    DO




YOU  HAVE YOUR  WRITTEN STATEMENT,  MR. KAPLAN,  THAT  YOU  WISH





TO SUBMIT  FOR  THE  RECORD?



              MR.  KAPLAN:   i  HAVE MAINLY NOTES,  BUT  i  COULD




 CONVERT THEM INTO A STATEMENT  IF YOU'RE  NOT RUSHED FOR  TIME.

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                                                                104
 1              .  CHAIRMAN WALKER:   IT'S YOUR CHOICE.  WE  ARE  GOING




 2   TO KEEP THE  RECORD OPEN FOR  30  DAYS,  IF YOU WANT TO  CLEAN




 3   THEM UP.




 4                MR.  KAPLAN:   i WILL SEE THAT YOU GET IT.




 5                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   ALL RIGHT.  THANK YOU.




 6                I  WILL NEXT CALL  ON JOAN JACKSON OF CHINQUAPIN




 1   IN CARLSBAD  REPRESENTING  CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE.




 8                MS.  JACKSON:   MY  NAME is JOAN JACKSON,   i  LIVE




 9   AT 1120 CHINQUAPIN.  THAT'S  C-H-I-N-Q-U-A-P-I-N, CARLSBAD.




10                CARLSBAD IS IN A  CRITICAL AIR BASIN WHERE




11   UNSATISFACTORY LEVELS OF  AIR  POLLUTANTS PRESENTLY  EXIST.




12   THERE ARE ADDITIONAL MAJOR POLLUTING FACILITIES  IN VARIOUS




13   STAGES OF APPROVAL OR DEVELOPMENT IN THE AREA,  SPECIFICALLY




14   ENCINA UNIT  5, THE EXPANSION  OF THE ENCINA  TANK  FARM AND




15   THE INDUSTRIAL PARK PROPOSED  FOR THE 580 ACRES  ADJACENT TO




16   THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY SITE.




17                THE  ARGUMENT  THAT THE REFINERY  WILL  EASE RATHER




18   THAN INTENSIFY THE SITUATION  IS BASICALLY THAT  THE POLLUTANTS




19   GENERATED BY THE REFINERY,  14 TONS PER  DAY, WILL BE  MORE THAN




20   OFFSET BY THE RESULTANT REDUCTION IN POLLUTION  CAUSED  BY




21   BURNING THE  REDUCED-SULPHUR  FUEL.  THIS ARGUMENT DEPENDS ON




22   SEVERAL ASSUMPTIONS OF VARYING DEGREES  OF PROBABILITY.




23                A PERMIT GRANTED  TO BUILD THE MACARIO  REFINERY




24   RESTS ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT  REDUCED-SULPHUR  FUEL  WOULD NOT




25   OTHERWISE BE AVAILABLE TO SAN DIEGO GAS  &   ELECTRIC COMPANY.

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                                                                 105
SAN DIEGO  GAS S ELECTRIC HAS TESTIFIED REPEATEDLY  BOTH  BEFORE




THE SAN  DIEGO AIR  POLLUTION CONTROL  DISTRICT AND  THE  SAN D1EGC




REGIONAL COAST COMMISSION THAT  SAN  DIEGO GAS AND  ELECTRIC HAS




FIRM CONTRACTS THROUGH 1984 TO  SUPPLY THE ENC1NA  GENERATING




PLANT  WITH AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF  LOW-SULPHUR FUEL.   THIS




INFORMATION WAS SUPPLIED TO THESE AGENCIES AS  SUPPORT FOR




THEIR  APPLICATION  TO CONSTRUCT  ENCINA 5.




             THAT  CONSTRUCTION OF  THE MACARI 0 REFINERY WILL




PRODUCE  A  NET REDUCTION  IN AIR  POLLUTION MUST  ALSO REST ON




THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE  REDUCED-SULPHUR  FUEL REFINED IN




CARLSBAD WILL BE  AVAILABLE  FOR  USE IN THAT SERVICE AREA.




THIS  IS  AN ASSUMPTION WHICH  FEDERAL ALLOCATION POLICIES




PRECLUDE.   SAN DIEGO GAS £  ELECTRIC COMPANY  TESTIFIED,  WHEN




REQUESTING ONE MAJOR AIR-POLLUTING FACILITY,  THE ADDITIONAL




GENERATING UNIT AT THE ENCINA  PLANT,  THAT  AMPLE LOW-SULPHUR




FUEL  WAS ALREADY  ASSURED FROM  SOURCES OTHER  THAN THE PROPOSED





REFINERY.




              THEY  NOW TESTIFY  THAT THE REFINERY IS NECESSARY




TO PREVENT  INCREASED POLLUTION  FROM  SUCH FACILITIES  AS  THEIR




GENERATING PLANT   IN ENCINA  AND ELSEWHERE IN  THE SAME CRITICAL




AIR BASIN  BECAUSE OTHERWISE REDUCED-SULPHUR  FUEL WILL  BE




UNAVAILABLE  IN  SUFFICIENT  QUANTITY.   THE TESTIMONY  IN  THE




TWO CASES  IS  DIRECTLY  CONTRADICTORY.   THEREFORE,  CERTAINLY





 INCORRECT  IN AT  LEAST  ONE  CASE.




              SAN  DIEGO  GAS  & ELECTRIC  WAS ORDERED  TO  SELL

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THEIR SURPLUS OF  LOW-SULPHUR FUEL  TO A COMPANY  OUTSIDE THEIR




SERVICE  AREA EARLIER  THIS YEAR.   THE REDUCED  SULPHUR FUEL




REFINED  IN  CARLSBAD WILL LIKEWISE  BE ALLOCATED  AS  SEEN FIT




BY STATE AND FEDERAL  AGENCIES.




             THERE  ARE OTHER QUESTIONS THAT  REMAIN  UNANSWERED.




AT THE ANNUAL MEETING OF GULF  OIL, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE *BOARD,




MR. B. R.  DORSEY,  REPLIED TO A STOCKHOLDER'S  QUESTION,




"DO WE HAVE ANY  REFINERIES THAT WE PLAN ON  BUILDING IN THE




NEXT  FIVE YEARS?"   "NO.   THERE'S  ABOUT A  40  PERCENT REFINERY




SURPLUS  IN  THE WORLD  TODAY, SO YOU WOULD KIND OF HAVE TO  BE




OUT OF YOUR MIND,  WHICH WE ARE NOT, TO BUILD  A REFINERY."




             CARLSBAD  IS NOT AN ISOLATED FARMING AREA  IN  THE




STATE OF WASHINGTON  NOR ON AN  ISLAND WITH  CONSISTENT STRONG




WIND  CURRENTS.   WE ARE A TOWN  BALANCED ON  THE VERGE OF




SUCCUMBING  TO THE  BLIGHT THAT  HAS AFFECTED  LOS ANGELES,  A




BLIGHT  THAT  IS PREDICTED TO WORSEN  RATHER  THAN IMPROVE




BECAUSE  OF THE REDUCTION IN POLLUTION CONTROL RESULTING  FROM




OUR  FORECAST ENERGY  SHORTAGE.   TO GRANT A  PERMIT BASED ON




THE  ASSUMPTION THAT  THE  FUEL  WOULD  NOT OTHERWISE BE AVAILABLE




WHEN  SAN DIEGO GAS S  ELECTRIC  HAS PROVED  TO OTHER AGENCIES




THAT  THEY HAVE AN ADEQUATE  SUPPLY TO AT  LEAST 1984, AND  ON




THE  ASSUMPTION THAT THE  FUEL  WILL BE USED  IN THEIR  SERVICE




AREA  WHEN THE  FEDERAL  GOVERNMENT  HAS ULTIMATE ALLOCATION




AUTHORITY  IS  TO  ASK CARLSBAD  TO ACCEPT BLINDLY WHATEVER




SAN  DIEGO GAS  &  ELECTRIC PROPOSES REGARDLESS OF HOW

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                                                             107
   SELF-CONTRADICTORY  AND CONTRARY  TO LOGIC AND GOOD SENSE  THE
 2  PROPOSALS  MAY  BE.
 3               CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE URGES THE UNITED STATES
   ENVIRONMENTAL  PROTECTION AGENCY  TO DENY THE AUTHORITY TO
 5  CONSTRUCT  PERMIT.
 6               1  HAVE  TWO ITEMS I WOULD LIKE TO ENTER INTO  THE
 7  RECORD.  ONE IS  A LETTER TO MR.  R. G.. LACY, MANAGER,
 8  MECHANICAL ENGINEERING,  SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRI C,. FROM
 9  RICHARD  J.  SOMMERVILLE,  ACTING AIR POLLUTION CONTROL OFFICER
10  FOR  SAN  DIEGO  COUNTY.   AND THE OTHER IS MY STATEMENT.
                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
12              (APPLAUSE)
13               A  COPY  OF THE LETTER TO MR. R. G. LACY FROM
14  RICHARD  J.  SOMMERV1LLE WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 21 FOR PURPOSES
15  OF THIS  HEARING, AND A COPY OF THE LADY'S  STATEMENT WILL BE
16  MARKED EXHIBIT 22.
17               I  NEXT  CALL. ON MR. ARTHUR J. MEIER OF CHEVY CHASE,
18
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LA MESA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING  LOCAL  230.
            ARTHUR J. MEIER?   IT DOESN'T  SAY  LOCAL OF WHAT.
            I  OBSERVE NO RESPONSE.  WE WILL CALL  THESE  LATER.
            MR. MONTY NESBIT OF SAN PABLO DRIVE,  LAKE SAN
MARCOS, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.
            MR. J. A. REHBERG  FROM HONOLULU,  REPRESENTING
PACIFIC RESOURCES,  INCORPORATED.
            MR. REHBERG:  MY NAME  is  JEROME REHBERG.  I'M

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 1   SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT  OF PACIFIC  RESOURCES, INCORPORATED,




 2   WHOSE OFFICES  ARE AT  1060  BISHOP  STREET,  HONOLULU,  HAWAII.




 3                PACIFIC RESOURCES IS  A  JOINT  PARTNER  IN THE




 4   MACARIO REFINERY PROJECT,  AND CURRENTLY OPERATES  ONE OF THE




 5   FEW CLEAN-AIR  REFINERIES IN THE UNITED STATES.  THE PACIFIC




 6   RESOURCES  REFINERY  IS  HAWAIIAN  INDEPENDENT REFINERY,




 7   INCORPORATED,  IN HONOLULU.




 8                NOW, THE  REASON FOR THE MACARIO REFINERY IS




 9   ONE OF NEED,  THE NEED  FOR ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE CLEAN




10   FUELS AND  THE  NEED  FOR A SECURE SOURCE OF SUPPLY.




11                IN OUR  METHOD OF DETERMINING IF THERE  WAS SUCH




12   A NEED, WE  CALLED IN  OUTSIDE AGENCIES, THE MC  KINSEY COMPANY,




13   TO MAKE AN  EVALUATION  OF THE SUPPLY OF THESE  FUELS.




14                AND  IF  YOU WOULD SHOW THE FIRST SLIDE,  PLEASE.




15   I'M SORRY  THAT THESE  ARE A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO SEE HERE,  BUT




16   WHAT I'M TRYING TO  SHOW IS IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE THERE  WILL




17   BE A SURPLUS  OF SECURE U.  S.  CRUDE  OIL ON THE  WEST COAST.




18   HOWEVER, THE  SULPHUR  CONTENT WILL BE ABOVE ACCEPTABLE LIMITS.
19




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             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   EXCUSE ME, MR.  REHBERG.  FOR




THE RECORD,  ARE YOU  GOING TO  PRESENT COPIES  OF THESE SO WE




CAN INCLUDE  THEM  IN  THE RECORD?




             MR. REHBERG:  YES,  SIR, 1  WILL.




             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU.




             MR. REHBERG:  BUT  BECAUSE OF THE  NEED OF




ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE  FUELS,  YOU WILL  SEE ON THE CHART--

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--OR PERHAPS YOU CAN'T SEE ON THE  CHART--WE HAVE  ASSUMED THAT




THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL ALLOW  THE IMPORT  OF  THE LOW-




SULPHUR,  OR THE SWEET, CRUDES TO  CONTINUE.  AND  THAT AS MUCH




OF THE  ALASKAN CRUDE  AS IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE WILL BE




TRANS-SHIPPED ACROSS  CALIFORNIA  TO THE MIDWEST AND EAST COAST.




AND IF  YOU HAVE. BEEN  READING  THE  VARIOUS  TRADE JOURNALS, YOU




WILL FIND THESE PLANS LISTED  THEREIN.  AND  WE HAVE SOME AT




THE BOTTOM OF THIS  CHART, WHICH  SHOWS THE  REVERSAL OF THE




FOUR CORNERS PIPELINE AND THE REVERSAL OF  THE TRANSMOUNTAIN




PIPELINE, TO GIVE  YOU THE BASIS  FOR THE  ASSUMPTION OF HOW




THE CRUDE SURPLUS  WOULD ARRIVE.




             NOW,  NO.   2 SLIDE, PLEASE.   I  BELIEVE  IT WAS




MENTIONED WE WOULD HAVE TO  BE RATHER,  I  BELIEVE  --  I  FORGET




WHAT  MR.  DORSEY,  THE  PRESIDENT  OF GULF  OIL SAID.   STUPID




MIGHT  BE AN ADEQUATE  EXPLANATION, TO  BUILD A REFINERY




CAPABILITY.  AGAIN, WE'RE NOT BUILDING  WHAT'S CONSIDERED  A




TYPICAL  REFINERY  WHEN  THERE  IS SURPLUS  REFINERY CAPACITY.




AND  THESE  CHARTS  AND  THE  STUDY WE HAD DONE INDICATES  THAT




HERE  ON  THE WEST  COAST THERE IS AN  EXCESS OF REFINERY




CAPACITY,  BUT  THESE  REFINERIES ARE  GASOLINE-ORIENTED.




APPROXIMATELY  50  PERCENT  OF THE TOTAL OUTPUT OF  THESE




REFINERIES  ARE  FOR GASOLINE.  THE TYPICAL COST NEEDED TO




DESULPHURIZE  RESIDUAL FUELS  IS AS EXPENSIVE  AS A  NEW  REFINERY




THERE  IS  ABSOLUTELY  NO INCENTIVE  OR NO REASON FOR THESE




CURRENT  REFINERIES TO ENTER  THE  LOW-SULPHUR  MARKET FOR TWO

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                                                                 110
REASONS:   MORE LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTION AS SUCH  WOULD




PRODUCE  MORE PRODUCTS  ALREADY IN  EXCESS FOR THEIR  NEEDS IN




THEIR REFINERY, AS  THE SLIDE SHOWS.   AMD, TWO,  IF  THEY




CHANGED  OVER TO THE LOW-SULPHUR TO MAKE LOW-SULPHUR WITHOUT




INCREASING THEIR  CAPACITY, THEY WOULD REDUCE  OR ELIMINATE




THE  USE  OF THE HIGH CAPITAL, VERY HIGH CAPITAL  COST, OF




UNITS THAT ARE ALREADY INSTALLED  AND USED TO  PRODUCE




GASOLINE AND COKE.




             WELL,  WHAT IS  THE  REASON WE  SEE  FOR THE NEED  OF




THE  MACARiO REFINERY?  PUT ON  SLIDE  3.   THIS, AGAIN,  IS ONE




DONE BY  THE MC KINSEY COMPANY  FOR US TO  MAKE  AN ANALYSIS.




AND  YOU WILL  NOTE THAT THE GROWTH LINE WE  HAVE REDUCED




CONSIDERABLY  BY  WHAT  HAS  BEEN  BANDIED  AROUND HERE.  WE HAVE




TAKEN THE BEST AND MOST  CONSERVATIVE GROWTH LINE THAT  WE




COULD COME  UP  WITH, THAT  SEEMED  --  THAT  WE  DIDN'T  COME UP




WITH; THAT  THE  COMPANY CAME  UP WITH, MC  KINSEY COMPANY,  IN




THEIR ANALYSIS.   AND  THIS SLIDE  SHOWS  WHY THE  NEED FOR




MACARIO REFINERY.  THERE  ARE NOT  ENOUGH  PROJECTS.




              THF  BOTTOM  LINE, THE  ONES  ON THE BOTTOM THERE,




 IF YOU  CAN  SEE THE LOWEST LINE,  THAT IS  NOW  IMPORTS,  FOREIGN




 IMPORTS,  OF LOW-SULPHUR  FUEL OIL,  INCLUDING  THAT  WHICH YOU




 NOW USE COMING IN  FROM  HAWAII.   THE DOTTED LINES  ABOVE THAT




 LOW LINE  ARE THE  PROJECTS IN PROCESS,  PRIMARILY  THOSE OF




 STANDARD  OIL OF  CALIFORNIA, WHICH IS ADDING  DESULPHURIZAT1 ON




 AND NEW DISTILLATION.  THEY'RE ADDING NEW REFINERIES AT AN

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                                                                  111
 1   OLD REFINERY SITE.   THOSE  INCLUDE ALL OF  THOSE.   AND YOU  WILL




 2   SEE THAT  THERE  IS  A CONSIDERABLE GAP IN THE  MOST CONSERVATIVE




 3   GROWTH  LINE, THAT  THERE IS NOT  ENOUGH, CONSIDERING  IMPORTS




 4   AND ALL  THE PROJECTS NOW  IN  BEING, TO FULFILL THE REQUIRE-




 5   MENTS  FOR THESE  ENVIRONMENTAL-TYPE FUELS.




 6                AS  MR.  BEAN AND  OTHERS POINTED OUT,  THE MACAR10




 7   REFINERY'S PROPOSED PROCESSING  UNITS ARE  NOT THOSE  OF  THE




 8   USUAL  REFINERY.   OUR PROCESSING EQUIPMENT IS DEDICATED TO




 9   PRODUCING ENVIRONMENTALLY  ACCEPTABLE FUELS.




10                PACIFIC RESOURCES  IS OPERATING A CLEAN-AIR




11   REFINERY  IN HAWAII, A REFINERY  THAT HAS WON THE AMERICAN




12   LUNG ASSOCIATION'S BLUE SKY  AWARD, AND THE GOVERNOR OF




13   HAWAII'S  COMMENDATION FOR  THE  CORPORATION HAVING DONE  THE




14   MOST TO IMPROVE  THE ENVIRONMENT.




15                PACIFIC RESOURCES  HAS BEEN,  IS,  AND WILL CONTINUE




16   TO BE  INTERESTED IN OUR ENVIRONMENT.




17                THANK  YOU.




18                (APPLAUSE)




19                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU,  MR. REHBERG.   DO




20   YOU HAVE  A  COPY OF YOUR REMARKS WHICH YOU WISH TO LEAVE




21   WITH  US?   SUIT  YOURSELF.




22                1 WILL NEXT CALL MR. ANTHONY  BELLIN OF  CAMINITO




23   ESTRADA,  CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.




24       -         MR.  BELLIN?




25                MR.  JOHN .M. STUPPY  OF JAMES  DRIVE.  IT  DOESN'T

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                                                                 1 12
 1   SAY WHAT CITY.





 2                (CRIES OF  "CARLSBAD")




 3                MR.  STUPPY?




 4                CECIL J. YOUNGSTROM  OF  DON ALBERTO  DRIVE,




 5   CARLSBAD.




 6                MR.  EDWARD KIMURA.




 7                I  READ YOUR ADDRESS  AS  TEMECULA.   YOU'RE




 8   REPRESENTING THE SIERRA CLUB,  SAN  DIEGO CHAPTER.




 9                MR.  KIMURA:   MR. CHAIRMAN, MY NAME  IS  EDWARD




10   KIMURA.   I  AM SPEAKING IN BEHALF OF THE SAN  DIEGO  CHAPTER




11   OF THE  SIERRA CLUB.




12                THE CHAPTER IS VERY  CONCERNED OVER  THE MANY




13   ISSUES  INVOLVED IN THE CONSIDERATION OF THE  PROPOSED MACAR10




14   REFINERY.   THE QUESTION AT THIS  HEARING IS WHETHER THE




15   PROPOSED  REFINERY WILL OR WILL NOT  SIGNIFICANTLY  DETERIORATE




16   THE AIR QUALITY OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN,  OR  WHETHER THE




17   REFINERY  WILL INTERFERE WITH  THE ATTAINMENT  AND MAINTENANCE




18   OF THE  NATIONAL AIR  QUALITY  STANDARDS.




19                THIS  IS  A  VERY SERIOUS  AND VITAL QUESTION




20   BECAUSE IT CONCERNS  THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF NOT  ONLY HUMAN




2l"  LIFE,  BUT ALSO ANIMAL  AND PLANT LIFE  IN THE  SAN DIEGO AREA.




22   TO THIS END, ONE  MUST  GO BEYOND THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE
23




24




25
EMISSION  LEVELS CREATED BY THE  REFINERY WILL  MEET  ANY OF THE




STATE OR  FEDERAL STANDARDS.   IT  IS  THE E;NV I RONMENTAL PROTEC-




TION AGENCY'S OBLIGATION, AS  OUR  PUBLIC SERVANTS,  TO

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                                                            1 13
CRITICALLY EXAMINE IF ANY POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION HAZARDS
WILL BE CREATED BY THE REFINERY.
            THE PUBLIC MUST BE MADE FULLY AWARE OF THE
TRADE-OFFS TO BE MADE FOR THE BENEFITS OF THE LOW-SULPHUR
FUEL PRODUCTS VERSUS THE POSSIBLE AIR POLLUTION HAZARDS
CREATED BY THE REFINERY  ITSELF.   IN VIEW OF THE INFORMATION
PROVIDED TO US BY BOTH EPA AND THE APPLICANT, THE SAN DIEGO
CHAPTER OF THE SIERRA CLUB CONCLUDES THAT THE DATA AND
ANALYSES ARE  INSUFFICIENT TO SHOW BEYOND ANY REASONABLE
DOUBT THAT THE PROPOSED  MACARIO  REFINERY WILL NOT SIGNIFI-
CANTLY DETERIORATE THE AIR QUALITY.  WE MUST ALSO CONCLUDE
THAT THE NEED FOR THE REFINERY PRODUCTS HAS NOT BEEN  CLEARLY
ESTABLISHED.
            THESE CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON  THE  FOLLOWING
POINTS:
             1.   THE  VALIDITY OF  THE  FORECAST METHODOLOGY  USED
IN  THE SDGSE  AND  PUBLIC  UTILITIES COMMISSION  IN THEIR
TEN-YEAR  FUEL DEMAND FORECASTS  HAS  BEEN RECENTLY  QUESTIONED
BY  THE STATE  ENERGY  RESOURCES  CONSERVATION  AND  DEVELOPMENT
COMMISSION.   ACCURATE  FORECASTS  ARE  VITAL,  AS  ONE CAN SEE
THE DIRECT  INFLUENCE OF  INCREASED ENERGY  DEMANDS  ON  THE  AIR
QUALITY OF  THE  SAN  DIEGO AIR  BASIN.
             2.   IN  THE  EPA  REPORT ENTITLED  "MACARIO  --
ANALYSIS  OF  THE  S02  IMPACT  ON  LOCALIZED AIR QUALITY,"
WHICH  WE  RECEIVED JUST  THIS  PAST MONDAY,  DOES  NOT IN OUR

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 1   OPINION  JUSTIFY  ITS  CONCLUSION THAT THE PROJECT WILL NOT



 2   ADVERSELY  AFFECT THE MAINTENANCE OF THE CALIFORNIA STATE OR



 3   NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS FOR SO? IN THE SAN



 4   DIEGO  AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION.



 5               ADDITIONALLY, THIS REPORT DOES NOT, IN OUR VIEW,



 6   SUPPORT  ITS CLAIM THAT THE AIR QUALITY WILL NOT SIGNIFI-



 7   CANTLY BE  DETERIORATED BY THE REFINERY.  WE BELIEVE THAT



 8   THE EPA SIMULATION MODEL USED TO ANALYZE THE COMBINED



 9   EMISSIONS  FROM THE REFINERY AND THE ENCINA POWER PLANT  IS



10   NOT SUFFICIENTLY ACCURATE TO SUPPORT  THEIR CONCLUSIONS.



11               EPA ITSELF IN APPENDIX A  OF THIS REPORT STATES,



12   "BECAUSE OF SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL  LIMITATIONS, THE



13   DIFFUSION  COMPUTATION METHOD  USED  IN  THIS MODEL MAY PROVIDE



14  'BEST ESTIMATES BUT NOT INFALLIBLE  PREDICTIONS."



15               YET,  IN  THE  MAIN  BODY  OF  THEIR REPORT,  EPA



16   PRESENTS GROUND LEVEL CONCENTRATION NUMBERS  TO FOUR SIGNI-



17   FICANT  FIGURES, A VERY GROSSLY  MISLEADING PRACTICE.



18               WE  REFER YOU TO  CHAPTER  7 OF  THE  TEXT  "FUNDA-



19   MENTALS OF AIR  POLLUTION" BY  SAMUEL  J.  WILLIAMSON.   IN  THIS



20   CHAPTER WILLIAMSON  DISCUSSES  THE  LIMITATIONS  OF  THE MODELING



21   TECHNIQUES CURRENTLY AVAILABLE.   PREDICTIONS  COULD  BE  OF



22   SEVERAL FOLD.   WE NOTED  THAT THE  EPA  MODEL  DID NOT  INCLUDE



23   THE  OCEAN, BUT  REPLACED  IT  WITH A CONTINUUM  OF A  SIMPLISTIC



24   TOPOGRAPHY OF THE LAND AREA.   IT  WOULD SEEM  THAT  THE  THERMO-



25   DYNAMICS  AND OTHER  FACTORS  OF THE OCE'AN WOULD MODIFY  THE

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                                                                 115
 1   ATMOSPHERIC  MIXING OF  THE EFFLUENTS.




 2                THIS AND OTHER OMISSIONS  AND SIMPLIFICATIONS IN




 3   THE MODEL  USED TO ACCURATELY SIMULATE THE EFFLUENT  DISPERSAL




 4   FOR THE  PURPOSES OF PREDICTING GROUND-LEVEL CONCENTRATION




 5   OF c>02 MAKES US BELIEVE  THAT MODELING STUDIES ALONE  CANNOT




 6   BE USED  TO DETERMINE THE IMPACT OF  THE REFINERY  ON  THE AIR




 7   QUAL.ITY.   WE STRONGLY  RECOMMEND THAT  THE EPA USE  MORE




 8   ACCURATE METHODS TO ASSESS THE EMISSIONS IMPACT.




 9                3.  THE ANALYSIS OF THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE  IMPACT




10   PRESENTED  THUS FAR BY  THE EPA  IGNORES THE FACT  THAT  THIS




11   POLLUTANT  WILL FURTHER OXIDIZE IN  THE ATMOSPHERE  AND COMBINE




12   WITH THE MOISTURE  IN THE AIR TO FORM  A SULPHURIC  ACID  RAIN




13   FALLOUT.   THIS REACTION, AS WELL  AS THE SYNERGISTIC  EFFECTS




14   OF SULPHUR DIOXIDE WITH  THE OTHER  AIR POLLUTANTS,  SUCH AS




15  .NITROGEN DIOXIDE,  PARTICULATE  MATTER, AND EVEN  SALT  BROUGHT




16   IN BY  THE  OCEAN SPRAY  PRESENT  ANOTHER ASPECT OF  THE  IMPACT




17   OF REFINERY  EMISSIONS  THAT MUST BE  STUDIED.




18                WE EXPR-ESSED THIS  CONCERN IN OUR PREVIOUS




19   STATEMENT  TO THE EPA  DATED THE  1 3TH OF JUNE, 1975  IN REGARD




20   TO THE MACARIO PROJECT.   IN THAT  STATEMENT WE CITED




21   REFERENCES DESCRIBING  THE ADVERSE  CONSEQUENCES  OF THE  ACID




22   RAIN FALLOUT AND THE  SYNERGISTIC  COMBINATION OF  SULPHUR




23   DIOXIDE  AND NITROGEN  DIOXIDE ON  PLANT LIFE.




24       -         THESE  REFERENCES INDICATE SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE




25   COULD  OCCUR EVEN WHEN  THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE EMISSION  LEVELS

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                                                                116
 1   WERE BELOW THE  STATE AND FEDERAL  STANDARDS BECAUSE  OF  THIS




 2   MULTIPLIER EFFECT.   THIS IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE  IMPACT OF




 3   SULPHUR DIXOIDE  EMISSIONS ON  THE  PUBLIC HEALTH MUST BE




 4   EXAMINED BY TH'E  EPA.




 5               IN  CONCLUSION, WE  MUST REAFFIRM OUR  PREVIOUS




 6   COMMENTS ON THE  EPA EVALUATION,  AND REQUEST THAT  THE EPA




 7   PERFORM A MORE  THOROUGH AND  INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS,  GIVING




 8   PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO ALTERNATIVE EVALUATIONS  WITH RESPECT




 9   TO THE END USE  OF THE PRODUCTS OF THE REFINERY.




10               THANK YOU.




11               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU, MR. K1MURA.




12              (APPLAUSE)




13               A COPY OF MR. KIMURA'S REMARKS WILL  BE MARKED




14   AS EXHIBIT 23 FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS  RECORD.




15               AND MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME  QUESTIONS.




16               MR.  COVINGTON: MR. KIMURA,  WE VERY  MUCH APPRE-




17   CIATE THE DETAILED ANALYSIS  ON THIS.  HOW CAN  WE ARRANGE TO




18   GET WITH YOU  OR WHOMEVER TO  EXPLORE MORE  FULLY  THE DETAILS




19   OF YOUR CONCERNS?




20               MR.  KIMURA:   I HAD A LENGTHY  DISCUSSION WITH




21   MR. JIM GROBJ? OF YOUR OFFICE LAST FRIDAY  AND  DID DISCUSS




22   SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS  IN  DETAIL.




23               MR.  COVINGTON:   so YOU THINK  YOU HAVE CONVEYED




24   THE SPECIFICS OF THESE?




25               MR.  KIMURA:   IN  LARGE MEASURE, YES.

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                                                             117
 1              MR.  COVINGTON:   PERSONALLY  FOLLOW  UP,  IF NEED  BE.
 2              MR.  KIMURA:   WITH  RESPECT  TO  THE  CHAPTER,  YES.
 3              MR.  COVINGTON:   THANK YOU.'   THAT'S ALL.
 4              CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU.
 5              MR.  WILLIAM  H.  COLE OF SANTA CLARA,  VISTA,
 6   DISTRICT  COUNCIL OF CARPENTERS.
 7              MR.  COLE:   MR.  CHAIRMAN,  MEMBERS  OF THE  PANEL,
 8   LADIES  AND  GENTLEMEN:   I  AM IN A POSITION HERE SOMEWHAT
 9   SIMILAR TO  THE  STORY  OF  THE WOMAN WHO  WENT INTO THE  DRESS
10   STORE AND SHE  PICKED THE MOST UNGODLY  DRESS YOU COULD  FIND,
1]   TRIED  IT  ON, AND SHE  ASKED THE CLERK,  "SALLY,  HOW DOES THIS
12   LOOK ON ME?"
13               SHE SAYS,  "IT'S YOU, IT'S YOU."
14               THE LADY SAYS, "FORGET I  OWN 80  PERCENT OF THE
15   BUSINESS.   HOW  DOES IT  LOOK ON ME?"
16               WELL,  FORGET I'M REPRESENTING 7,000 CARPENTERS.
17   OF COURSE,  ANY  OF US AND ALL OF US IN THE BUILDING TRADES
18   WANT OUR  MEN WORKING ON THAT PROJECT,  BUT I THINK THAT'S
19   SOMETHING TO  LOOK TO THAT'S A  LOT FURTHER AWAY THAN THAT.
20   WE HAVE'AN  INITIATIVE COMING UP  IN JUNE TO STOP ATOMIC
21   ENERGY.  THE  SIERRA CLUB IS FAMOUS FOR STOPPING ONE OF THE
22   CLEANEST  TYPES  OF ENERGY WE CAN POSSIBLY GET, AND THAT'S
23   HYDROELECTRIC1TY.  AN OUTFIT  IS COMING IN HERE WITH A PROCESS
24   OF CLEANING UP FUEL OIL, WHICH OUR GOVERNMENT HAS FLATLY
25   TOLD THEM THEY EITHER GET CLEANED UP OR THEY AREN'T GOING TO

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                                                                 118
 1   BE USING  THEM.   LET'S  STOP IT ALL.





 2                IT WOULD  BE  BEAUTIFUL  IF WE COULD ALL  GO BACK




 3   TO 150 YEARS  AGO, GET  A  FEW ACRES,  MAYBE GET A WINDMILL AND




 4   A PUMP.   1  DON'T KNOW  WHAT KEROSENE HAS, HOW  IT'S  RATED,




 5   WHETHER  IT'S  IN THE  POLLUTION BUSINESS, BUT WE COULD HAVE




 6   KEROSENE.   WE CAN'T  RETURN TO THIS.  WE ARE STUCK,  WE ARE




 7   GONE, WE  ARE  PAST THAT.   THERE'S  NOT A DAMN ONE  OF US IN




 8   HERE THAT WOULD SIT  STILL NIGHT AFTER NIGHT TRYING TO' READ




 9   SOMETHING WITH A KEROSENE LAMP.   WE GET HYSTERICAL WHEN THE




10   TELEVISION GOES OFF.




1]                THE AGENCY HAS TOLD YOU THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN




12   SECTIONS  THAT CANNOT  BE  TURNED OFF WITH GAS,  AND THAT'S YOUR




13   HOME, YOUR PERMANENT  CUSTOMERS.   I  DON'T KNOW  ABOUT THE




14   REST OF  YOU,  BUT  I  HAVEN'T LIKED  THE PRICES OF MY  FUEL  BILLS




15   LATELY.   BUT  IF  I WAS WORKING  IN  A PLANT AND  THE GOVERNMENT




16   COME ALONG AND SAYS,  "OKAY, HOLD  IT, WE HAVEN'T  GOT ENOUGH




17   GAS  FOR  YOUR  PLANT,  SO YOU'RE  ONLY GOING TO BE WORKING  TH.REE




18   DAYS,"  IF I LOST  TWO DAYS AND  ADDED THAT TO MY GAS AND  ELECTR




19   BILL,  IT WOULD-BE ONE HECK OF  A  BILL.   I WOULD LIKE YOU TO




20   LOOK WITH AN  OPEN MIND TO THE  FUTURE.




2i                A STATEMENT WAS MADE  HERE  BY ONE  OF  THE EARLIER




22   YOUNG MEN THAT SPOKE.  IT'S FRUSTRATING BUILDING,  BUT OUR




23   WHOLE COUNTRY WAS BASED ON BUILDING.   OUR  COUNTRY  AND




24   EVERYTHING THAT  WE  BELIEVE IN  HAS  BEEN  BUILT  FROM THE EAST





25   COAST OUT WEST.

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                                                                 119
 1                THE STATEMENT WAS MADE  THAT SATELLITE BUSINESSES




 2   WOULD COME  IN.   MY G-OD,  LET'S HOPE  SO,  LET'S HOPE SO.   WHAT




 3   ARE YOU  GOING TO TELL  YOUR YOUNG  SON  AND YOUR DAUGHTER  WHEN




 4   THEY GRADUATE OUT OF  COLLEGE?  "OKAY,  YOUR TIME  IS  UP,  GET




 5   OUT OF TOWN,  THERE ARE NO JOBS HERE  FOR YOU."




 6                I SPENT A  GOOD AMOUNT OF  TIME IN MY  YOUNG  LIFE




 7   THINKING,  "SURE, THERE WOULD BE NO  JOB FOR YOU," NOT




 g   "SATELLITE  BUSINESS,  I DON'T WANT ANY OF THOSE."




 9                THINK,  IF  YOU CAN, WITH  AN OPEN MIND OF WHAT WE




1Q   GOT AHEAD  OF US IN THE FUTURE.   IT'S  NOT JUST A  LITTLE




n   IMMEDIATE  THING RIGHT  HERE IN CARLSBAD.  THIS IS A  NATIONAL




12   PROBLEM.




13                  MR.  PR1TTEN:    MR. CHAIRMAN,  I  WISH  TO




14   PROTEST.   THIS  IS A HEARING ON AIR  POLLUTION.   IF YOU  WANT




,5   TO TALK  ABOUT OTHER JOBS AND OTHER  RELATED FACTORS  --




16   (APPLAUSE)  --




17                MR. COLE:   i WILL TALK  ON AIR POLLUTION.




]g                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  PLEASE  DO.




19                MR. COLE:   WE HAD SOME  IN THIS ROOM  HERE  A WHILE




20   BACK.   I  BELIEVE  IT WAS MR. SOMMERFIELD.  1 HOPE HE IS  IN




21   HERE AT  THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT.   I  WANT TO GET  --




22                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  I'D JUST AS SOON  WE NOT  ENGAGE




23   IN PERSONALITIES.  WE  HAVE A JOB  TO DO.  WE ARE  HERE  TO HEAR




24   WHAT- YOU HAVE TO  SAY.




25                MR. COLE:   YOUR AIR  POLLUTION MAN STATED  --

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                                                                 120
 1               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   JUST A MINUTE.   OUR JOB IS TO




 2  LISTEN  TO THE PUBLIC  HERE.  WE  ARE GOING TO TRY  TO DO OUR




 3  BEST  TO LISTEN TO  ALL THE PEOPLE.   WE UNDERSTAND IN ANY




 4  PUBLIC  HEARING PEOPLE DO DIGRESS,  AND WE ARE  TOLERANT OF




 5  THAT.   I  AM WATCHING  THE TIME  ON  PEOPLE, AND  1  DON'T THINK




 6  IT HAS  BEEN ABUSED.





 7               MR. COLE:  I WILL  CLOSE.




 8               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   GO  AHEAD, MR. COLE, AND SAY




 9  WHAT  YOU HAVE TO SAY.  WE DON'T WANT TO CUT YOU  SHORT.





10               MR- COLE:  I'LL MAKE  MY CLOSING WITH A HOPE YOU




11  WILL  LOOK TO THE FUTURE ABILITY OF A REFINERY TO PRODUCE




12  FUEL  THAT WILL BE  CLEAN FOR YOUR  ENVIRONMENT.




13              (APPLAUSE)




14               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU, MR.  COLE.




15               FOR THE  RECORD, WE  WILL NOTE THAT MR. COLE  TOOK




16  FIVE  MINUTES.




17               MR. HAROLD WOLFF OF SNEAD DRIVE,  OCEANSIDE.




18               MR. WOLFF:  HAROLD  WOLFF, PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER,




19  STATE OF CALIFORNIA.   CHEMICAL  ENGINEER, RETIRED AT THE




20  PRESENT TIME.  MY  BACKGROUND IS VERY MUCH  LIKE MR. KAPLAN'S,




21   40 YEARS IN THE PETROCHEMICAL  INDUSTRY.




22               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   DO  WE HAVE ANY  ELECTRICAL




23  ENGINEERS THAT CAN TELL US WHY  WE'RE GETTING  THIS BUZZ?




24               MR. WOLFF:  NO, I'M ONLY CHEMICAL.




25               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   GO  AHEAD.

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                                                                121
                MR. WOLFF:   AND i  WANT  TO  REITERATE MR. KAPLAN'S




2  REMARKS  ABOUT THE  QUALITY OF THE APPRAISAL THAT HAS BEEN




3  MADE  BY  EPA ON THE BASIS OF THE  INFORMATION THEY HAVE.   FROM




4  WHAT  I  SAW, 1 THINK IT WAS A HIGHLY CREDITABLE AND  FAIR




5  APPRAISAL.




6               HOWEVER,  THERE'S ONE MAJOR DISCREPANCY  THAT I




7  NOTED IN GOING OVER THE MATER IAL  THAT EPA  FORWARDED,  AND THAT




8   IS  RELATED TO  THE  EMISSIONS FROM THE FLARE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF




9   SYSTEM.   NOW,  THE  EMISSIONS FROM THE FLARE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF




10   SYSTEMS WERE  SHOWN UNDER  UPSET  CONDITIONS WITH THE ONLY




    EMISSION AS  HYDROCARBONS.   NOW,  1  HAVE NOT SEEN THE DETAILED




    PROCESSING,  BUT  JUST THE  BULK FLUOR I DE- RI M OF  THE SULPHUR




    RECOVERY  PLANT,  WHICH  I  ASSUME  WOULD ALSO BE  TIED INTO THE




    FLARE SYSTEM AND  THE  PRESSURE-RELIEF SYSTEM,  AND THERE WOULD




    BE NO HYDROCARBON  EMISSIONS FROM THE SULPHUR  RECOVERY  PLANT.




    IT WOULD  HAVE TO  BE  FORMS OF  SULPHUR.




                 IN REVIEWING THE  PROCESS  FROM DESULPHURIZATI ON




    BY THE  DIETHYLNOL DESULPHURIZAT I ON  PROCESS,  SULPHUR  IS  TURNED




    INTO HYDROGEN SULPHIDE.   HYDROGEN  SULPHIDE,  A GAS  ITSELF,




    IS HIGHLY TOXIC IN ITS PURE FORM.   IN  PARTS PER MILLION  IT




    IS LETHAL.  SO, THE  INVENTORY OF  HYDROGEN SULPHIDE  IN  THE




    PLANT  MUST NECESSARILY BE LOW FROM THE HYDROGEN SULPHIDE




    COMBUSTION AND  REACTION THAT TAKES PLACE WHICH  CHANGES THE




    SULPHUR FROM HYDROGEN SULPHIDE  TO ELEMENTAL  SULPHIDE.   THIS




25  PROCESS IS NOT  A  REFINING  PROCESS, IT'S  NOT  ONE  THAT  MAKES
11




12




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17




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22




23




24

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                                                                 122
 1   FUEL; IT  IS  A CHEMICAL  PLANT PROCESS,  AND ]  WISH  TO  POINT




 2   THIS OUT  IN  THE DESIGN  OF A REFINING  PROCESS.




 3                SERVICE  FACTORS OF 98  PERCENT OR MORE  CAN  BE




    OBTAINED.   THAT IS THE  ON-STREAM  TIME  WHERE SHUTDOWNS  CAN




 5   BE PLANNED,  LET'S SAY,  SOMETHING  LIKE  SIX DAYS  A  YEARS,  A




 6   WEEK A YEAR.   YOU CAN  PLAN THESE  SHUTDOWNS AND  TAKE  CARE OF




 7   ALL YOUR  MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS.   BUT FROM MY  EXPERIENCE




 8   IN THE OPERATION OF  CHEMICAL PLANTS,  THIS IS NOT  POSSIBLE,




 9   PARTICULARLY IN SUCH SYSTEMS WHICH ARE HIGHLY CORROSIVE




10   AND TEND  TO  PLUG.  THESE MAINTENANCE ITEMS HAVE  TO BE TAKEN




H   CARE OF  B^  IMMEDIATE SHUTDOWNS.




12                WHEN A CHEMICAL PLANT IS  IMMEDIATELY  SHUT DOWN,




,3   THE PRODUCTS IN  INVENTORY WITHIN  THE  PLANT HAVE TO BE FLARED.




14   THESE PRODUCTS WOULD BE FLARED WHERE  THE H2S WOULD BE FORMED




15   INTO CONCENTRATED SULPHUR DIOXIDE.




16                ALONG THIS VEIN, THIS PRODUCT, DEPENDING ON  THE




17   HEIGHT OF THE  FLARE, WHICH WAS NOT MENTIONED, WOULD THEN




18   BE ADDED TO THE  TOTAL  ATMOSPHERE.  AND  IN TIMES OF UPSET




19   THERE WILL  BE  VERY HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF S02.   THESE HAVE




20  .NOT  BEEN TAKEN  INTO  CONSIDERATION  IN THE EVALUATION OF  THE




21   FLARE SYSTEM AND, AS EAR AS  I  CAN SEE, WERE  NOT IN ANY  WAY




22   IN THE ESTIMATES  OF  THE EMISSIONS.




23                NORMALLY A CHEMICAL  PLANT WILL HAVE APPROXIMATELY




24  A 90 PERCENT STREAM  FACTOR.  MAYBE UP TO 92  OR  93 PERCENT.




25  SO,  HERE YOU HAVE A  REFINERY WITH A 98  PERCENT  STREAM FACTOR

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                                                                 123
 1   AND A CHEMICAL PLANT  WITH SOME LOWER  STREAM FACTOR.   NOW,  THE




 2   REFINERY WILL BE HANDLING PRODUCT  VALUE OF, LET'S  SAY,




 3   100,000 BARRELS A DAY OF OIL AT  ROUGHLY $10 A BARREL.   THAT




 4   WILL BE A  MILLION DOLLARS A DAY.   THE CHEMICAL  PRODUCT,  OR




 5   SULPHUR RECOVERY UNIT,  WILL HANDLE A  PRODUCT OF  200  TONS A




 6   DAY, WHICH,  ON THE  OUTSIDE, WOULD  BRING $100 A  TON OR $200




 7   A DAY.  SO,  HERE THE  TAIL WAGS THE DOG, IN WHICH  THE REFINERY




 8   WILL BE OPERATED AND  CHEMICAL PLANT IN PART WILL -BE  DOWN AND




 9   THE PRODUCT  OF THE  DESULPHURIZATI ON WILL BE FLARED.   IT WILL




10   BE FLARED  AT A RATE,  DEPENDING ON  THE INPUT, WHICH I DON'T




11   HAVE, OF  SOMETHING  ON THE ORDER  OF 2200 TO 3000  TONS A DAY




12   OF SULPHUR DIOXIDE.




13                NOW, THIS HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED  IN  ANY  OF THE




14   DESIGN  PLANS  1 HAVE SEEN AS TO WHAT WILL HAPPEN  DURING UPSET




15   CONDITIONS OF THIS  KIND.




16                FURTHERMORE, IN THE  START OF A NEW  PLANT--AND  I




17   HAVE BEEN  ON A NUMBER OF THEM--THERE   IS A  PERIOD IN WHICH  A




18   PLANT  IS  BROKEN  IN, AND THERE ARE  UPSETS AND  THERE ARE UPS




19   AND DOWNS.  DURING  THIS PERIOD  THESE   PLANTS WILL BE UP AND




20   DOWN OVER THE FIRST THREE-  TO SIX- TO EIGHT-MONTH PERIOD,




21   DEPENDING ON  THE QUALITY OF THE  MATERIALS, THE  QUALITY OF




22   THE ENGINEERING, THE CONSTRUCTION  THAT HAS BEEN DONE.  AND




23   DURING  THESE  PERIODS YOU WILL HAVE VERY MUCH  EXCESSIVE FLARE




24   SO  THAT IN THE  FIRST TWO YEARS  OF  OPERATION  I  BELIEVE YOU




25   CAN EXPECT A  NUMBER OF  UPSETS.   I  HAVE NOT SEEN A CHEMICAL

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                                                                  124
 1  PLANT  COME  ON STREAM,  PARTICULARLY A NEW PLANT,  A DESIGN OF



 2  THIS KIND,  THAT CAN  BE GUARANTEED A SMOOTH  START-UP.   IT'S



 3  MUCH WORSE  THAN BREAKING IN A  NEW CAR.



 4               SO, ON  THIS BASIS,  I  WOULD URGE  EPA  TO DEFER



 5  THEIR  APPROVAL OF THIS UNTIL MORE DETAILED  INFORMATION  IS



 6  AVAILABLE  IN RELATION  TO HOW THE  EMERGENCY  PLANNING AND UPSET



 7  CONDITIONS  OF THE CHEMICAL PLANT  OR THE CHEMICAL PART OF THE


 8  AIR WILL  BE HANDLED.



 9               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU, SIR.



10               MR. SW1CKER HAS SOME  QUESTIONS.



11               MR. SWICKER:  YOU'RE  INDICATING  MALFUNCTIONS,



12  BREAKDOWNS  WOULD OCCUR BEYOND  THE BREAK-IN  PERIOD.  HOW OFTEN



13  WOULD  YOU  ESTIMATE,  BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE,  SUCH BREAKDOWNS


14  AND MALFUNCTIONS MIGHT TEND TO OCCUR  IN A  RECOVERY OF THIS



15  TYPE?



16               MR. WOLFF:  I WOULD SAY ON THE  BASIS OF NEW



17  DESIGN TECHNOLOGY,  IF ONE ATTAINED AFTER TWO TO  THREE YEARS



18  A 90 TO 95  PERCENT  STREAM FACTOR, THIS WOULD BE  HIGHLY
   i


19  SATISFACTORY FOR THE  NATURE OF THIS OPERATION.



20               THIS  IS  A FOULING  SYSTEM,  IT'S  HIGHLY CORROSIVE.



21  HEAT EXCHANGES PLUG,  THE PRODUCTS OF  CORROSION COME OUT ALL   j



22  OVER,  PUMPS SHUT DOWN.  NOW, THIS CAN  BE TAKEN CARE OF  IN  A



23  FASHION BY  PUMPS, BY  HAVING ADDITIONAL UNITS WHICH WOULD



24  TAKE- CARE  OF THESE  THINGS.  BUT NOT HAVING  THE DETAILED



25  DESIGN OF  THE UNIT,  ONE CANNOT VISUALIZE THE OPERAT1 ON'  UNTIL

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 1   THE  DESIGN HAS  BEEN MADE.




 2                THE NAVY TAKES  CARE OF SUCH  BREAKDOWNS BY  HAVING




 3   REPLICATION  --  DUPLICATION  OF EQUIPMENT.   THEY HAVE,  SAY,




 4   THREE OR FOUR WAYS TO GO  WHEN THERE'S  A  BREAKDOWN.   BUT,




 5   NORMALLY,  IN A  REFINERY,  THAT'S NOT  THE  CASE.  THEY  LIKE  TO




 6   MAKE THEM  SINGLE-TRA1N.   THEY SPARE  CERTAIN THINGS.   BUT  WHEN




 7   A MAJOR BREAKDOWN OCCURS,  BANG, THAT UNIT IS SHUT  DOWN,




 8   EVERYTHING GOES TO THE  FLARE, AND  YOU  CAN SEE  IT.  AND WHEN




 9   H2S  BURNS,  IT'S A BEAUTIFUL NICE BLUISH  GREEN  AND  RAINS  DOWN




10   AND THE PAINT  --  1 DON'T  WANT TO GET EMOTIONAL.




11               (APPLAUSE)




12                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  WE STILL HAVE A  LARGE  NUMBER




13   OF CARDS TO  GO, BUT THE REPORTER HAS  BEEN GOING FULL  SPEED




14   SINCE WE RECONVENED  AFTER THE NOON RECESS.  WE WILL  NOW TAKE




15   A 15-MINUTE  RECESS.  AND I  SHOULD  LIKE TO BE  VERY  PROMPT




16   ABOUT THAT.   15 MINUTES.




17               (RECESS)




lg                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  WE WILL GO BACK  ON THE RECORD
19




20




21




22




23




24




25
NOW.  WE  HAVE FOUND  THE ANNOYING BUZZ THAT WAS  IN THE MICRO-




PHONES  UP HERE AT  THE DAIS,  SO  THOSE UP HERE  ARE GOING TO




HAVE  TO RAISE OUR  VOICES IN  ORDER TO REACH YOU  (BUZZ)





(LAUGHTER).




             DURING THE RECESS  IT WAS QUIET.




             WE DO  HAVE SOME  HOUSEKEEPING  TO  DO  AT THIS TIME.




SOME  OF THE EXHIBITS SUBMITTED  BY THE REFINERY  THIS MORNING

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25
                                                                126
HAVE NOW  BEEN REPRODUCED SO WE CAN  1NCORPORATE . THEM  IN  THE




RECORD, AND THE BAR  GRAPH THAT WAS  DISCUSSED WILL BE  EXHIBIT




NO.  24.




             THE CHART SHOWING SULPHUR DISTRIBUTION  IN WORLD




CRUDE  RESERVES WILL  BE EXHIBIT 23.




             AND A  SIMPLIFIED REFINERY PROCESS  SCHEME WILL BE





E XHIBIT  26.




             THE AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS  SHOWN  WILL BE





EXHIBIT  27.




             THE SKETCH MAP WILL  BE EXHIBIT  28.




             THE DOCUMENT THAT  WAS REFERRED  TO THIS  MORNING,




THE PRESS  RELEASE  OF THE AGENCY  DATED MAY  7TH, 1975, THAT




WAS NOT HERETOFORE  INTRODUCED,  WILL  BE EXHIBIT 2.9-




              THE  NEXT  CARD  IS  FOR ED  AND  NAOMI WEBER, SAN




D1EGUITO.   1  WILL NOT  PRESUME  THAT  EITHER  SPEAKS FOR THE




OTHER.  ARE  THEY  BOTH  HERE?   DO THEY BOTH  WANT TO SPEAK?





OR IS ElTHER  HERE?




              NO SHOW.




              THE  NEXT  CARD  IS  MARILYN MACKETT, VANTAGE  WAY,





 REPRESENTING THE   LEAGUE OF WOMEN  VOTERS.




              MS.  MACKETT:   MY NAME  IS MARILYN  MACKETT,  AND  I




 LIVE  AT  2438 VANTAGE  WAY,  DEL MAR.   1  AM SPEAKING  TODAY FOR




 THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY,  WHICH  IS




 COMPOSED OF FIVE  LOCAL LEAGUES  OF AROUND A THOUSAND MEMBERS




              CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT MICROPHONE  WORKS.

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  1               MS.  MACKETT:   FOR SEVERAL  DECADES OUR NATIONAL




  2  ORGANIZATION,  THE LEAGUE OF  WOMAN VOTERS  OF THE UNITED




  3  STATES,  HAS ACTIVELY WORKED  FOR IMPROVEMENT IN OUR ENVIRON-




  4  MENT.   EXTENSIVE  STUDIES HAVE BEEN MADE  BY LEAGUE MEMBERS  OF




  5  THE  ISSUES OF  AIR QUALITY  AND ENERGY CONSERVATION.




  6               THE  LEAGUE OF  WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY




  7  COMMENDS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION  AGENCY FOR BEING  HERE




  8  TODAY  SO WE CAN  PARTICIPATE  WITHIN THE HEARING REGARDING  THE




  9  REFINERY PROPOSAL.   THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN  VOTERS OF SAN- DIEGO




10  COUNTY BELIEVES  PUBLIC INTEREST DEMANDS  THAT WE NOT MEET  OUR




11  ENERGY NEEDS BY  PERMITTING AIR POLLUTION  TO RISE TO LEVELS




12  THAT ENDANGER  HUMAN HEALTH.   WE ARE CONCERNED THAT ALTHOUGH




13  THE  TOTAL REGION-WIDE POLLUTANT BURDEN MAY BE REDUCED BY




14  INCREASED USE  OF  LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTS FROM THE REFINERY,




15  SULPHUR  DIOXIDE  AND, TO A  LESSER EXTENT,  NITROGEN DIOXIDE,




16  EMITTED  AT THE PLANT SITE  WILL ADVERSELY  AFFECT LIFE WITHIN  .




17  THE  VICINITY OF  THE PLANT.   WE ARE CONCERNED THAT SUCH




18  EMISSIONS WILL NOT  BE DIFFUSED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SAN




19  DIEGO  COUNTY REGION AND THUS WILL NOT  BE  DILUTED, A TRADE-OFF




20  WE CONSIDER UNACCEPTABLE.  THUS, THE IMPACT ON THE FEW  IS




21  ALSO NECESSARY TO CONSIDER.




22               THE  LEAGUE OF  WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY




23  QUESTIONS EPA'S  BASING ITS TENTATIVE DECISION TO APPROVE




24  THE  REFINERY PROJECT ON THE  PREMISE THAT  ALL OF THE REFINERY'S




25  PRODUCTS WILL  BE  USED IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL

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                                                                 128
 1  REGION WHEN NO  PROPOSAL  IS  MADE FOR  A  MEANS OF GUARANTEEING
2




3




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25
LOCAL--THAT  IS, SAN  DIEGO COUNTY--PRODUCT  DISTRIBUTION.




             THE LEAGUE NOTES  THAT NO MENTION  IS  MADE IN




ERA'S  REFINERY REPORT OF ATTACHING CONDITIONS  TO AN EPA




PERMIT THAT  WOULD  CALL FOR BEST AVAILABLE  CONTROL TECHNOLOGY




IN THE CONSTRUCTION  AND OPERATION OF THE  REFINERY.  WE




STRONGLY  URGE  PROVISIONS FOR  SUCH CONDITIONS.




             SEVERAL  DISTINCT  METEOROLOGICAL ASPECTS OF THE




COASTAL ZONE APPEAR  TO COMBINE TO CREATE  AN UNUSUALLY




CRITICAL  AIR AREA  IN NORTH SAN DIEGO COUNTY.   THE LEAGUE




OF WOMEN  VOTERS BELIEVES, THEREFORE, THAT ANY DECISION THAT




MIGHT  RESULT  IN FURTHER DEGRADATION OF  AIR QUALITY  SHOULD




BE MADE ONLY WITH  SUBSTANTIAL, UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION  BASED




ON ACTUAL DATA DERIVED FROM  A FAR MORE  COMPLETE  SYSTEM OF




MONITORING THAN HAS  EXISTED  UP TO THE  PRESENT TIME  BOTH  IN




THE  IMMEDIATE  VICINITY AND  SURROUNDING  REGION OF  THE  PROPOSED
R'EFINERY.
             WE  STRONGLY  URGE THAT  YOUR AGENCY DELAY  ANY
 DECISION AT  LEAST UNTIL  THE SAN DIEGO  COUNTY SMOG  MODEL BEING




 PREPARED BY  THE SAN  DIEGO  COUNTY AIR  POLLUTION  CONTROL




 DISTRICT AND THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION IS




 REFINED, ENABLING FURTHER,  MORE ACCURATE DETERMINATION OF




 THE REAL AIR QUALITY  IMPACT OF THE  REFINERY.  WE  BELIEVE IT




 IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT  THAT A FINAL  DECISION BY  EPA NOT BE




 MADE UNTIL  POSSIBLE  SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS OF THE  ENCINA POWER

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                                                              129
1  PLANT AND THE  REFINERY ARE KNOWN.




2              (APPLAUSE)




3,               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   DO  YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR




4  REMARKS?
5




6




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8




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24




25
            MS.  MACKETT:   YES,  I HAVE  GIVEN ONE  TO YOUR




COORD!NATOR.



            CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK  YOU.   IT WILL BE MARKED




EXHIBIT  30.



             I  HAVE A CARD FROM  JEAN  SLOAN.



             MS.  SLOAN:  YOU WANT  ME  ALL THE WAY UP TO THE



PODIUM?   I  MERELY WISH TO ENDORSE  THE FOREGOING STATEMENTS.




I COME  FROM ESCONDIDO.



             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK  YOU.  AND YOU ARE  THE




JEAN  SLOAN OF ESCONDIDO?



             MS.  SLOAN:   1929  SORRENTINO DRIVE.




             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU..



             MR.  COVINGTOIM:   BEFORE WE  LOSE  ANY  OF YOU:   WE




 HAVE  RECEIVED A VARIETY  OF QUESTIONS  WHICH  WE  HAVE  ANSWERED




 SOME  DURING THESE  INFORMAL BREAKS OR  DISCUSSIONS  AND,  IN




 OTHER CASES,  PERHAPS,  WE HAVE NOT.   IN SOME CASES THE



 QUESTIONS  ARE BEYOND OUR ABILITY  TO  RESPOND TO INASMUCH AS



 THEY  DIRECTLY RELATE TO THE  COMPANY  INVOLVED.   WHAT WE WOULD




 PROPOSE  TO DO AT  THE - AS WE  GET ON  WITH THE  HEARING AND




 BRING  IT  TO  A CONCLUSION,  IS TO  AGAIN GO OFF THE RECORD AND




 TO ANSWER ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS  THAT HAVE NOT  BEEN ANSWERED.

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                                                                  1 30
 1   THOSE  THAT  YOU RAISED WITH US.





 2                I  HAVE  ASKED IF  REPRESENTATIVES  OF THE COMPANY




 3   COULD  OR  WOULD REMAIN TO ANSWER  THOSE THAT  ARE WITHIN THEIR




 4   PURVIEW.   SO,  IF  THAT'S ACCEPTABLE, THIS  IS  THE WAY WE WOULD




 5   TRY TO HANDLE  THAT  PART OF THE  PROGRAM.




 6                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   1  NOW HAVE  A  CARD FOR JOAN




 7   JACKSON.   IT LOOKS  LIKE THE  SAME NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE  JOAN




 8   JACKSON WHO SPOKE  PREVIOUSLY.   ARE THERE  TWO OF YOU?




 9                ALL RIGHT.




10                UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:   SURE  IT'S NOT GENE




11   JACKSON?





12                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   NO,  THIS  IS PRINTED, AND  I




13   CAN READ  IT QUITE  CLEARLY.   MAYBE  THE EARLIER ONE IS GENE.




14   SHOULD 1  LOOK  BACK.




15                UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:   NO.




16                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   L. W. RASH, HIGHLAND DRIVE,




17   CARLSBAD.




18                MR. RASH:  MR. NAME  IS RASH.   I  LIVE AT




19   4156 HIGHLAND  DRIVE, CARLSBAD,  AND I'M  SPEAKING FOR MYSELF.




20                INASMUCH AS THE  GROUND RULES  THAT YOU LAID  OUT




21   THIS MORNING HAVE  BEEN VIOLATED IN SEVERAL  CASES, I HOPE  YOU




22   WILL BEAR WITH ME  A BRIEF DEPARTURE.




23                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   WE WILL BEAR  WITH YOU FOR A





24   SHORT  TIME, BUT RESTRAIN YOURSELF.




25                MR. RASH:  FIRST,  IT SEEMS  IRONIC TO ME THESE

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                                                            1 31
HEARINGS  ARE  BEING HELD AND  THE NEWSPAPERS  ARE  CARRYING




BANNER HEADLINES, THE TV  IS  DEVOTING SOME  TIME  TO IT ON




THE EVENING  NEWS, THAT AN  OIL  REFINERY  IS  GOING TO BUILT  IN




CARLSBAD,  CALIFORNIA.  BUT AS  LATE AS NOON  FRIDAY THERE WAS




NO OFFICIAL  REQUEST MADE  FOR SUCH A PROJECT TO  BE BUILT IN




THE CITY  OF  CARLSBAD, AS  TOLD  TO ME BY  THE  CITY MANAGER.




WE FEEL  IN THE ABSENCE OF  A  SPECIFIC PLAN,  EXACTLY WHAT'S




GOING TO  HAPPEN  IN THIS 855  ACRES, THAT THE CARLSBAD CITIZENS




SHOULD BE  THE FIRST TO KNOW.




             I  ALSO BELIEVE,  IF IT'S GOING  TO BE HOME RULE




ANYWHERE  ALONG THE LINE,  THAT  YOU START JUST HERE.   IT'S




MY STRONG  BELIEF THAT THE  PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD THROUGH THEIR




ELECTED OFFICIALS SHOULD  HAVE  SOMETHING TO  SAY  ABOUT THE




FUTURE OF THE CITY IN WHICH  WE ALL HOPE TO  LIVE UNTIL WE  DIE.




SOME OF  US.   IF  THIS REFINERY  IS BUILT  IN  THE PRESENT --  AT




THE PRESENT  SITE THAT'S INDICATED, IT WILL  SET  A PRECEDENT




UNFAIRLY  ANYWHERE IN THE  UNITED STATES  AND, I  DARE SAY, IN




THE WORLD.   EVERYBODY TELLS  US, EVEN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL,




WE ARE GOING  TO  HAVE 200,000 PEOPLE HERE  IN A FEW YEARS,  AND




THIS REFINERY REPRESENTS  THE GEOGRAPHIC CENTER  OF CARLSBAD




IN THAT  POPULATION.  IF THERE  WERE OIL  WELLS THERE PUMPING




THE OIL  TO BE REFINED,  I  WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO  SAY ABOUT  IT.




THAT IS NOT  THE  CASE.  ALL THIS OIL IS  GOING TO BE -- HAVE  TO




BE TRANSPORTED TO THIS LOCATION.




             THE  BY-PRODUCTS  THAT ARE NOT USED HERE ARE  GOING

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                                                         1 32
TO HAVE TO BE TRANSFERRED ELSEWHERE.   AND THAT IS OF SOME
CONCERN TO THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD THAT LIVE HERE  AND LOVE
THEIR BEACHES.  AND BEGINNING TO SEE  THE SUPERTANKERS ON
THE HORIZONS OF OUR BEACHES.
            I  FEEL LIKE I'M GOING TO  HAVE TO BE FACETIOUS
FOR ONE MINUTE.  THE GENTLEMAN'S REMARK THIS MORNING ABOUT
THE RETIRED PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY  -- I'M RETIRED, AND I
THINK EVERYBODY HERE WILL RETIRE IF THEY LIVE LONG ENOUGH,
SO I  THINK THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR.  AND JUST FOR HIS INFORMA-
TION, 1 DO RESENT THE FACT HE IS NOT  WORKING BECAUSE PART  OF
MY TAXES IS PAID AS UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION.
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THAT'S  ENOUGH DIGRESSION.
            MR. RASH:  WE HAD ANOTHER DEPARTURE AS TO THE
JOBS THAT'S GOING TO BE CREATED BY THIS OIL REFINERY IF IT
WENT IN.   1 HAVE VERY RECENTLY, AS MUCH AS S 1 X YEARS AGO,
MOVED FROM AN AREA WHERE THEY BUILT A REFINERY, WHERE THEY
BEGGED THEM TO COME AND BUILD IT.  BUT THEY DIDN'T BUILD  IT
IN THE CENTER OF TOWN; THEY BUILT  IT SEVEN MILES OUT IN THE
SWAMP.  AND THEY HAD TO HIRE TRUCKS TO DRAW THE EARTH TO
BUILD  IT ON,  TO PUT  IT  IN THE SWAMP.    1 AM SPEAKING OF THE
STANDARD OIL  COMPANY IN PASCAGOULA, MISSISSIPPI.
            OVER THE YEARS I WATCHED  IT BEING BUILT AND I
WATCHED WHO BUILT  IT.  WE HAD PEOPLE  FROM ALABAMA, ARKANSAS,
TEXAS, OKALHOMA, EVERYWHERE YOU  COULD THINK OF POUR  INTO
THAT TOWN  TO  BUILD THAT OIL REFINERY  BECAUSE THEY  HAVE THE

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                                                                 133
 1   EXPERTISE  TO BUILD OIL  REFINERIES BECAUSE  THAT'S THEIR




 2   BUSINESS.   AND FOR THESE  LOCAL PIPEFITTERS  GOING TO GET A




 3   JOB TO BUILD THAT REFINERY,  THAT SEEMS  REMOTE TO ME.   I KNOW,




 4   BECAUSE  I  WAS THERE.




 5                WHEN THE OIL  REFINERY WAS  BUILT WITHIN  FIVE




 6   YEARS -- NOW I'M NOT SAYING  THIS IS DOCUMENTED PROOF THAT




 7   THIS WAS THE CAUSE OR THE EFFECT OF THE  REFINERY, BUT  IT'S




 8   A FACT THAT I KNOW.  I  WATCHED THE HOUSES  TURN YELLOW  BECAUSE




 9   OF THE RELATED INDUSTRY THAT CAME IN THERE, WHICH IS BEYOND




10   THE IMAGINATION OF THE  PEOPLE HERE THAT LIVE IN CARLSBAD,  AS




]]   CLEAN AS OUR AIR IS HERE  NOW.  WE HAD  FISH MEAL PLANTS, WE




12   HAD CHEMICAL FERTILIZER PLANTS, WE HAD PULP MILLS,  BRICKYARDS,




13   PETROCHEMICAL PLANTS, AND IT GOES ALL  DOWN THE LINE.   I'M  NOT




14   SAYING THAT'S GOING TO  HAPPEN HERE, BUT IT CERTAINLY CAN




15   HAPPEN.




16                WHAT I'M SAYING, WE WOULD  LIKE TO KNOW  WHAT  IS




17   GOING TO BE BUILT  IN THE  855 ACRES SURROUNDING THIS OIL




18   REFINERY.   SO, I SAY AGAIN,   I FEEL LIKE THIS HEARING  IS




19   PREMATURE  WITHOUT AN EIR  THAT THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD CAN




20   LOOK TO  SEE WHAT THEY'RE  PUTTING THEMSELVES  IN FOR.




21                THANKS VERY MUCH FOR LETTING ME SAY MY  PIECE.




22               (APPLAUSE)




23                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   1 HAVE A CARD HERE  FOR MISS




24   HILDA A. WENR1CK,  BUT MY  NOTE SAYS SHE EARLIER  INDICATED




25   SHE DID  NOT CARE TO SPEAK.   IS SHE HERE?  DOES SHE  WISH  TO

-------
 1   SPEAK?
 2               MS.  WENRICK:   NO.   IT HAS  BEEN JUSTLY SAID.
 3               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU,  MISS WENRICK.
 4               MS.  POPPY DEMARCO.
 5               MS.  LAW:   I'M NOT  POPPY.  SHE  HAD TO GO HOME.
 6   BUT  SHE  ASKED ME TO SUBMIT THIS FOR YOUR  RECORDS.
 7               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   WOULD YOU TELL us WHAT THIS
 8   NAME 1S ?
 9             •  MS.  LAW:   HER NAME IS POPPY DEMARCO, D-E-M-A-R-C-C
10   POPPY  TENDS  TO WRITE  KIND OF  FAST.
11               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   AND SHE  REPRESENTS THE --
12               MS.  LAW:   THE SAN  DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING
13   GROUP.   SHE  IS THE E1R SUBCOMMITTEE PLANNING CHAIRMAN,  AND
14   SHE  HAS  BROUGHT A LETTER FROM  THE CHAIRMAN, JOHN BOST,  FROM
15   THE  SAN  DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP, WHICH  I WOULD LIKE
16   TO SUBMIT.   I WOULD LIKE TO READ POPPY'S  NOTES.
17               "THE SAN  DIEGUITO  PLANNING GROUP POSITION:   WE
18   ARE  SUBMITTING A WRITTEN COMMENT STATING SOME OF OUR REAL
19   CONCERNS ABOUT THE PROPOSED REFINERY.   IN SUMMARY, WE ARE
20   CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOLLOWING  THINGS:
21              "1.  HAS NEED FOR THE REFINERY REALLY BEEN
22   ESTABLISHED?  SEE THE UNITED STATES GEOGRAPHICAL SURVEY
23   PROJECTED NEED FOR OIL.
24              "2.  HAVE  ALTERNATIVES BEEN ADEQUATELY CONSIDERED,
25   INCLUDING A REFINERY  IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, OR REBUILDING OR

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                                                                 1 35
 1   ADAPTING  CURRENTLY OPERATING REFINERIES  TO USE LOW  SULPHUR?




 2                "3.  WHAT  WILL BE THE  EFFECTS ON LOCAL  AGRICULTURE




 3   OR OF  THE LOCAL AIR  QUALITY LEVELS?




 4                "4.  WHAT  WILL BE OTHER  SECONDARY EFFECTS,  SUCH




 5   AS INCREASED TRAFFIC,  WAYS OF BRINGING IN RAW MATERIAL,  NEW




 6   INDUSTRY  INDUCED?




 1        '        "5.  EFFECT OF ODORS ON THE  TOURIST  INDUSTRY.




 8                "6.  EFFECT OF SPILLS, ACCIDENTS, FIRES,  ET




 9   CETERA."




10                THEY'RE  ALL CONTAINED  IN  THIS LETTER  WHICH I  GIVE




11   TO YOU.




12                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK  YOU.  AND WOULD YOU




13   1 DENT] FY  YOURSELF.




14                MS. LAW:   MY NAME IS CAROL LAW, AND  I'M GOING




15   TO BE  SPEAKING FOR MYSELF.  I AM A MEMBER OF THE EIR




16   SUBCOMMITTEE.




17               (APPLAUSE)




18                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THE  STATEMENT FROM THE SAN




19   DIEGUITO  CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP WILL BE EXHIBIT NO.  31,




20   AND  THE  DRAFT OF THE STATEMENT, TWO  PAGES, WHICH WE WILL




21   MAKE A PART OF THIS  RECORD AS EXHIBIT 32.




22                OLIVE WOODRIDGE, ALPINE,  CALIFORNIA.




23                MS. WOOLDR1DGE:  IN ORDER TO HAVE THIS  ENTERED




24   AS PART  OF THE RECORD,  DO  1 HAVE TO  TURN IN MY WRITTEN




25   STATEMENT?

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                                                             136
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            CHAIRMAN WALKER:  IT'S BEING TRANSCRIBED BY THE
REPORTER HERE.  IF YOU WISH US TO HAVE A COPY, WE WOULD
APPRECIATE IT BEING IN THE RECORD, IN ANY CASE.
            MS. WOOLDR1DGE:  OKAY.  THE ONLY  PART THAT  I
WILL SUBMIT AS PART OF THE RECORD.
            SHOULD I  IDENTIFY MYSELF  FIRST?
            CHAIRMAN WALKER:  YES, PLEASE DO.
            MS. WOOLDRIDGE:  MY NAME  IS OLIVE  WOOLDRIDGE.
1  AM A LIFETIME RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY.   38 YEARS OF
THAT HAS BEEN  IN. A SMALL COMMUNITY, UNINCORPORATED,  IN  EAST
COUNTY, 30 MILES EAST OF SAN DIEGO.
            A  COPY OF THE  POSTER  THAT ) WOULD LIKE  TO  SUBMIT
TO EVIDENCE WAS PART  OF THE MAYORAL I TY  CAMPAIGN  OF  1917  IN
SAN DIEGO, AND  IT SAYS, "WHICH DO YOU PREFER?  GERANIUMS
VERSUS SMOKESTACKS."  THE  SMOKESTACKS SAY "REAL  PROSPERITY"
AND APPARENTLY  THE MAYOR WOULD LIKE THE CLIMATE  TO  STAY NICE.
            CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  WHO WON THAT  CAMPAIGN?
            MS. WOOLDRIDGE:  YOU  HAVE TO  READ THE ARTICLE.
            CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  WE  WILL MARK  THIS.
            MS. WOOLDRIDGE:.  IT'S AN  AGE-OLD DEBATE,  AND  1
DON'T  KNOW WHETHER WE WILL BE ABLE  TO SOLVE THIS.
            CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  WE  WILL MARK  THIS  EXHIBIT 33.
            MS. WOOLDR1DGE:  BECAUSE  OF THE RECENT  OBJECTIONS
TO  TALKING ABOUT EMPLOYMENT  VERSUS,  YOU KNOW, JOBS  VERSUS
THE REFINERY,  1 MIGHT STRIKE MY  FIRST PAGE  OR I  MIGHT BE

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                                                                137
PERMITTED  A SHORT REBUTTAL.   I  AM A CONSTRUCTION WORKER'S




WIFE.   MY  FAMILY HAS BEEN  DEPENDENT ON  THIS  TYPE OF EMPLOYMENT




FOR A  LONG TIME.  THE  LEADERSHIP OF THE  UNIONS IN BUILDING




CONTRACTING TRADES MAY  FEEL  VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE




INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS.  MY  HUSBAND IS ONE.




             WE  FULLY REALIZE THERE WILL BE LONG PERIODS  OF




UNEMPLOYMENT AS LONG AS  WE REMAIN CONSTRUCTION-EMPLOYED.   WE




CANNOT,  HOWEVER, SUPPORT THE CONCEPT  THAT THE WORKING  MAN




COMES  FIRST AT  ALL COST.  AS A MATTER OF FACT,  IT WOULD  SEEM




THAT  A GREAT DEAL OF CONSTRUCTION EMPLOYMENT MAY WELL  BE




GENERATED BY THE CLEANING UP OF OUR  ENVIRONMENT, AND  1




QUESTION THAT  THE MACAR10 REFINERY  IS OF THAT NATURE.





(APPLAUSE)




              I  AM OPPOSED TO THE REFINERY  IN SPITE  OF




ASSURANCES GIVEN BY  PROPONENTS.   I  CANNOT HELP  BUT  FEEL  THAT




 IT  IS AT LEAST ONE  MORE NAIL IN THE  COFFIN.   ALPINE,  WHERE




MY  HOME IS,  IS A SMALL  COMMUNITY  WHERE PEOPLE  USED TO COME




WHEN SUFFERING FROM  LUNG DISEASES  OFTEN AGGRAVATED,  IF NOT




 CAUSED, BY CITY AIR  AND CITY LIFE.   OUR AIR  IN  THIS  SMALL




 COMMUNITY  IS  THREATENED BY  THE  PROPOSED REFINERY  BECAUSE  OF




 THE PREVAILING WINDS WESTERLY  THAT ARE PUSHING  COASTAL




 POLLUTION  FARTHER  AND FARTHER  EAST.   ALPINE.IS  PRESENTLY




 EXPERIENCING  SMOGGY  DAYS, SMOGGY  DAYS WE  DIDN'T USED TO HAVE.




              1  SUPPORT THE COMMENTS MADE  BY  THE  .CARLSBAD




 COMMUNITY  CAUSE,  LEUCAD1A TOWN COUNCIL,  MR.  SOMMERVILLE,

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                                                                 138
 1   MR. GRAY.   AND SINCE  I  HAVE MADE THESE  NOTES, MANY OTHERS.




 2                I  HAVE SUBMITTED SOME QUESTIONS,  AND  I HOPE  I




 3   CAN HEAR  OR READ THE  ANSWERS,  AND HOPE  THAT BOTH  THE  QUESTIONS




 4   AND ANSWERS WILL BE MADE  A PART OF  THE  RECORD.




 5                I  HEARD A PARTIAL  ANSWER  TO THE.EXPLOIT OF




 6   ENERGY  FROM THE SAN DIEGO GAS   5  ELECTRIC GENTLEMAN.




 7   HOWEVER,  IT'S  MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SAN ONOFRE NUCLEAR




 8   PLANT  IS  ONLY  20 PERCENT  FOR SAN DIEGO  COUNTY AS  FAR  AS




 9   WHAT'S  BEING -- WHAT  ENERGY IS BEING  GENERATED.   THERE  IS




10   ONLY GOING TO  BE 20 PERCENT OF ITS  ENERGY TO SAN  DIEGO  COUNTY.




11   THE REST  WILL  BE EXPORTED AND BELONGS  PARTIALLY TO SOUTHERN




12   CALIFORNIA EDISON.




13                OH, I  ALSO NOTICED THAT THE SAN DIEGO GAS 5




14   ELECTRIC  MAN DIDN'T MENTION THE NUMBER  OF SUNSHINY DAYS  THAT




15   WE HAVE  IN SAN DIEGO  COUNTY AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE POWER




16   SOURCE,  SOLAR  POWER.




17                I  THINK THAT'S ABOUT IT.   THANK YOU VERY  MUCH.




18                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  THANK YOU.




19               (APPLAUSE)




20                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  CHRIS CHRISTIE OF HIGHLAND




21   DRIVE,  CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING HERSELF.




22                CHRISTIE?




23                E.. W.  ANDERSON OF SKYLINE  ROAD, CARLSBAD.




24                E. W.  ANDERSON?




25                J. B.  HASSAN, CARLSBAD  BOULEVARD, CARLSBAD.

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 i               MR. HASSAN:   GENTLEMEN,  I'M  JIM HASSAN FROM




 2   CARLSBAD BOULEVARD.




 3               MR. SWICKER,  IN VIEW OF  THE  FACT THAT YOU DIDN'T




 4   GET  AN ANSWER TO  YOUR QUESTION REGARDING THE PROBABLE




 5   NUMERICAL VALUE OF  BREAKDOWNS IN NEW REFINERIES,  I CAN GIVE




 6   YOU  A FAIRLY COMPLETE BREAKDOWN ON WHAT  HAPPENED  IN BENICIA




 7   OVER A PERIOD OF  YEARS.   IF YOU WANT,  1  WILL BE GLAD TO  SEND




 8   IT TO YOU.




 9               MR. SWICKER:   PLEASE DO.




10               MR. HASSAN:   MOST OF THE REST OF THE  STUFF  i




11   HAVE TO SAY HAS BEEN SAID, AND  I'LL  JUST GIVE YOU THE GUT




12   ISSUE HERE.




13               WE  HAD  A MAN MAKING A  SPEECH TO ONE OF THE




14   CITY CLUBS HERE  RECENTLY, A MAN BY  THE NAME OF  FRAZEE.   AND




15   WHEN ASKED  IF  SMOG  CAN DAMAGE THE  FLOWERS,  FRAZEE ANSWERED




16   THAT THE  UNIVERSITY STUDY THEY  HAD COOPERATED WITH HAD  SHOWN




17   THAT FLOWERS  HAD  BEEN ADVERSLY  AFFECTED BY  THE  INCREASING




18   LEVEL OF  OIL  POLLUTION IN CARLSBAD.   NOW,  THIS  IS THE MAM




19   WHO  IS  IN  THE  FLOWER BUSINESS,  THIS  IS THE MAN WHO PLANTS




20   BULBS EVERY MONDAY  MORNING, OR  HAS HIS TEAM DO  IT, AND  THIS




21   IS A MAN  WHO  IS INTERESTED  IN WHAT HAPPENS  TO  FLOWERS.




22   THEREFORE,  WHEN HE  SAYS  THESE  FLOWERS AREN'T  REACHING  THEIR




23  ' PEAK, HE'S  PRETTY NEAR THE  BALL.   !N HIS  SPARE  TIME,  THIS




24  MAN  IS  THE  MAYOR OF  CARLSBAD  AS WELL.




25               NOW,  THE SYNTHETIC  NATURAL  GAS  THAT'S COME  UP IN

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THIS MEETING  HERE IS GOING  TO  BE  RATIONED THROUGH  THE COMPANY.




I  HEARD A MAN FROM THE GAS  COMPANY AT THE COASTAL  REGIONAL




THING  IN SAN  DIEGO SAY THIS  SYNTHETIC NATURAL  GAS  WAS GOING




TO BE  DISPATCHED THROUGHOUT  THE  STATE.  I DON'T  SAY  THIS IS




AN ACTUAL FACT,  BUT IF 1  REMEMBER, THAT MAN'S  NAME WAS




NUGENT.  SO,  IT  WILL BE APPORTIONED THROUGHOUT THE STATE.




             REGARDING THE AUTOMOBILES THAT  SOMEBODY




MENTIONED.   NOW, I LIVE SIX-TENTHS OF A MILE  FROM  THIS




EXISTING POWER PLANT UP HERE.   I  ONLY 'MENTI ON  THIS BECAUSE




THE SAME PEOPLE  ARE RELATED TO BOTH OF THESE  FIRMS,  THE GAS




COMPANY AND THIS PROPOSED REFINERY.  MOW,  THE  DAY  1  DROVE




MY CAR UP THERE  TO PROTEST  THE FALLOUT FROM THE TUBES




BLOWING THE NIGHT BEFORE, I  GOT AS FAR AS  A MAN ON THE GATE,




AND HE TOLD ME THAT SOMEBODY NAMED R!CHERT  WOULD WRITE ME  A




LETTER OF APOLOGY, WHICH  1  NEEDED, OF COURSE.   (LAUGHTER)




AND  I  NEVER GOT  IT.   I NEVER GOT THAT LETTER.   BUT THE MAN




TWO HOUSES  AWAY  FROM ME WAS A LITTLE SMARTER AND PROTESTED




TO THE HARTFORD  INSURANCE COMPANY, AND THEY REPAINTED HIS




CAR.




             THIS  IS AIRBORNE STUFF I'M TALKING ABOUT  THAT




LANDS  ON  AUTOMOBILES.   FROM FRAZEE'S  FLOWERS,  MY ROOFTOP,




AND  MY BACKYARD,  INCLUDING  MY SWIMMING POOL BACK THERE.




I  SPOKE  TO  A WOMAN AT  A  MEETING LAST  NIGHT, AND SHE  WAS




PROTESTING  FALLOUT  IN  HER SWIMMING POOL,  AND SHE SAID SHE




HAD  PHONED  TO PROTEST  THIS  THING  AND  THE  MAN THERE HAS  A

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SENSE OF HUMOR  OR  SOMETHING, BUT HE TOLD  THIS  WOMAN THAT IT




HAD TO BE ;COMING  FROM THE OIL OFF THE BODIES  OF HER GUESTS




THAT::,SWIM  IN  THAT  TANK.   (LAUGHTER)  TRUE.




            NOW,  AT THE  FIRST MEETING THAT  THIS RE.'FINERY




ISSUE EVER .CONVENED -- THIS WAS A MEETING BACK, I  BELIEVE,




IN NOVEMBER  '73,  WHEN NOBODY KNEW WHO THEY  WERE WORKING FOR,




NOBODY REALLY KNEW WHERE THIS THING WAS  GOING TO BE, NOBODY




REALLY KNEW WHAT  THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE  THERE, AND TODAY  IS




THE FIRST  SEMI,  LET'S SAY, DEFINITE STATEMENT I HAVE HEARD




WHAT THEY'RE  GOING TO MAKE.  I  UNDERSTAND THEY'1 RE- NOT GOING




TO MAKE GASOLINE.   BUT AT THAT  TIME I DIDN'T KNOW AND THEY




DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE WORKING FOR JAPATUL, MACARIO,




OR SOME OTHER NAME.  BUT THIS IS BEHIND  THE THING.




             THEY  DID SPEAK OF THAT  PIPE  THAT GOES SOUTH,




WHICH WAS  MENTIONED AT THAT THING,  AND AT THAT TIME THEY




TOLD ME AND  THE ASSEMBLAGE, OF  COURSE,  THAT PIPE WAS AT 95




PERCENT OF CAPACITY.  THERE HAS BEEN NO  NEW PIPES BUILT OUT




THERE.  THEREFORE, ANY PRODUCTION  THAT  GOES OUT OF THIS




THING EITHER  HAS  TO GO IN NEW PIPES OR  OVER THE ROAD.  HERE   .




WE COME BACK  TO A REFERENCE THAT WAS MADE EARLIER THIS




AFTERNOON  TO  THAT ANCHORAGE OUT THERE.   I DON'T EXPECT THAT




ANCHORAGE  WILL BE LOADED WITH SUPERTANKERS BECAUSE THE




SUPERTANKERS  THAT ARE BUILT NOW ARE GOING RIGHT OUT AND GOING




INTO-THE  BONEYARD.  THEY'RE NOT ECONOMICAL.




             DOWN HERE THREE YEARS  AGO  THEY TIED UP ONE  IN

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SAN DIEGO,  BUT THE SEMI-SUPERTANKER,  THE  KIND THAT'S  IN  USE




RIGHT NOW,  WILL CONTINUE  TO BE USED,  I  BELIEVE.  BUT  1




BELIEVE  UNLESS THEY NEED  A SUPER BULK  CARRIAGE OUT OF  THE




NORTH SLOPE,  IN WHICH  CASE I  BELIEVE  THAT ANCHORAGE OUT




THERE WILL  BE USED FOR OFFLOADING OIL  TO  VARIOUS PARTS  OF




THE STATE.




             NOW, WE DON'T HAVE ANY  FALLOUT OUT THERE  UP  UNTIL




NOW,  BUT RIGHT NOW IS  WHEN HISTORY  STRIKES.   I DON'T  HAVE




A CRYSTAL BALL, BUT  I  WANT TO SAY THIS ABOUT  SPILLAGE:   1000




YARDS OFF THE CARLSBAD PUBLIC BEACH WE HAVE THAT ANCHORAGE.




THE NEXT SHIP  IN THERE WILL BE NUMBER 21  FOR  THIS  YEAR.




THAT  COMES  OUT TO THREE TANKERS A MONTH.   WHATEVER IT COMES




OUT TO,  THE NEXT ONE  IS NUMBER 21.   I'M NOT COUNTING  THOSE




BARGES  THAT COME  IN THERE; I'M TALKING ABOUT  SEAGOING VESSELS.




THOSE VESSELS ARE NINE HUNDRED AND  SOMETHING  LONG,  910,  1




BELIEVE, AND  105 WIDE, AND THEY HAVE A DRAFT  UNDER THE WATER




OF  47  FEET.  THEY WERE THE LAST SHIPS THAT WERE  BU1.LT FOR




USE  IN  THE SUEZ CANAL  PRIOR TO WHATEVER HAPPENED  OVER THERE.




AND  FOR THE PANAMA  CANAL.  THESE  BIGGER THINGS,  THEY  DON'T




GO  ANYWHERE.   THEY HELP THEM  AROUND.




             BUT ONASSIS INTERESTS  FINALLY  GOT PERMISSION




UP  IN MAINE,  UP  IN  EASTPORT,  I BELIEVE.   THEY ASKED THE




ONASSIS INTERESTS:   "WHAT  PART OF  THE EXPENSES  FOR A SPILL




CLEANUP ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING  TO ASSUME?"   AND THERE'S  BEEN




A  RECENT RASH  OF  EXPLETIVE DELETEDS IN THIS  COUNTRY,  BUT

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WHAT  THAT  GUY SAID  IS  "EXACTLY WHAT  THE LAW REQUIRES,  NOT




ONE CENT  MORE."  THIS  IS THE ONASSIS  INTERESTS.   HE'S  GOING




TO PAY  WHAT THE LAW  REQUIRES.




             1 THINK  WE OUGHT TO  KNOW  MORE ABOUT  THAT




ANCHORAGE  OUT THERE-.   YOU GO TO  THESE PEOPLE  IN  SAN DIEGO




GAS,  AND  THEY'RE PERFECTLY AT LIBERTY SAYING,  "MAN, WHAT




ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?  THAT'S A STANDARD OIL  TANKER OUT




THERE.   THAT'S GOT  NOTHING TO DO WITH ME.  GET OUT OF HERE.




BRING YOUR COMPLAINT SOMEWHERE ELSE."  AND THIS  CAN HAPPEN.




I  DON'T KNOW WHO OWNS THAT THING OUT THERE.   I  HAVE ASKED




OVER  THE  YEARS.  NOBODY KNOWS.   I  HAVE ASKED  WHO IS PAYING




FOR  IT, AND NOBODY  KNOWS.  AT LEAST NOBODY THAT TALKS TO ME.




             THAT'S  ALL, FELLAS.




            (APPLAUSE)




              CHAIRMAN WALKER:   FRED CLAYTON,  PRUETT  DRIVE,




VISTA,  CALIFORNIA,  REPRESENTING  HIMSELF.




              FRED  CLAYTON?




              MARGARET WILHELM.




              YOU  LIVE ON HERMES  STREET.   WHAT  CITY,  AND  WHO





 DO YOU REPRESENT?




              MS.  WILHELM:   I  REPRESENT  MYSELF, AND  I LIVE





 AT 828 HERMES,  LEUCADIA.




              I'M  NOT A  SPEAKER IN ANYTHING EXCEPT  LIVING




 AND BREATHING.   AND  1  COULDN'T   READ  AN AIR POLLUTION  CHART




 IF IT  HIT  ME  BETWEEN  THE  EYES,   BUT THERE'S ONE  THING  I  REALLY

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DO FEEL,  GENTLEMEN.   I  REALLY FEEL  THIS WHOLE  MEETING IS AN




EXERCISE  IN FUTILITY.   AND I'M  FAMILIAR WITH THESE KIND OF




MEETINGS.   IT'S LIKE  PLAYING WHO  DO YOU TRUST.   I  FEEL LIKE




DAVID  UP  AGAINST GOLIATH WITH NO  SLINGSHOT AND A VERY LITTLE




ROCK.




             I'M IMPRESSED BY THE  AWESOME GROUP OF OIL AND




LABOR  PEOPLE HERE  AND THE BIG TOP GUNS OF THE  SAN DIEGO GAS  &




ELECTRIC  WHO ARE TELLING US WHAT'S  GOOD FOR  US.   SO WHAT ELSE




IS NEW?   BIG BUSINESS AND BIG GOVERNMENT HAVE  ALWAYS TOLD  THE




LITTLE GUYS WHAT'S GOOD FOR US.   AND WHILE THEY'RE TELLING




US WHAT'S GOOD  FOR US,  THEY GOT THEIR HANDS  IN OUR POCKETS.




(APPLAUSE)




             IT'S ALMOST, LIKE WE'RE  OPERATING ON AN ORWELL1AN




THEORY EXCEPT WE'RE NINE YEARS  AHEAD OF OUR  TIME.  BIG




BUSINESS  OPERATES  ON FEAR.  THEY  MAKE THE  LITTLE GUYS AFRAID.




I  CAN  ONLY URGE YOU GENTLEMEN ON  THIS BOARD  TO WAIT  UNTIL




THE  SAN DIEGO GAS  -- NOT SAN DIEGO GAS  £ ELECTRIC, FOR  GODS




SAKE.   I  CAN ONLY  URGE YOU GENTLEMEN ON THIS BOARD TO WAIT




UNTIL  THE SAN DIEGO AIR CONTROL DISTRICT CAN COMPLETELY




FINISH A HIGHLY DETAILED AIR POLLUTION  ANALYSIS, AND THEN




MAYBE  WE CAN FIND  OUT WHO WE CAN  TRUST.




             THANK  YOU.




            (APPLAUSE)




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   CAROL  LAW, GASCOMY  ROAD,




LEUCADIA.

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             MS.  LAW:   GOOD  AFTERNOON,  GENTLEMEN.  MY NAME




IS CAROL  LAW,  1601 GASCONY  ROAD, LEUCAD1A.




             WE HAVE ALL  HEARD ABOUT  THE  GLOWING ACCOUNTS  OF




SDGSE AND PACIFIC RESOURCES,  INCORPORATED,  REGARDING THE




BENEFITS  TO US AND OUR AIR  QUALITY  IF  THIS  REFINERY WERE  TO




BE BUILT.   WHAT WE HAVEN'T  BEEN TOLD ARE THE COLD, HARD




POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC FACTS, A FEW  OF WHICH 1 WILL ENUMERATE




AS FOLLOWS:




             1.  IN THE 1960'S,  CONSIDERABLE GOVERNMENT




HEADWAY  WAS MADE  IN  CLEANING UP THE  ENVIRONMENT AFTER  A




GREAT DEAL OF CLAMORING  FROM CITIZENS.  UNDER OUR  LAST TWO




PRESIDENTS, HOWEVER,  WE  HAVE SEEN  A REVERSAL OF SOME  OF THOSE




EARLIER  ACHIEVEMENTS.   TO SAY THAT ANT I-POLLUTI ON  LEGISLATION




STILL ON THE BOOKS,  ALBEIT WEAKENED, WILL EVEN  BE  ON  THE BOOKS




NEXT  YEAR OR FIVE YEARS  FROM NOW,  GIVEN THE CAPR1C1OUSNESS OF




OUR  POLITICAL SYSTEM,  IS SIMPLY NOT DEALING WITH  THE  REALITIES





OF OUR  WORLD.




             BIG BUSINESS,  INCLUDING THE OIL  INDUSTRY,




ESPECIALLY THE OIL  INDUSTRY,  IS CHIPPING AWAY  AT  THE  SYSTEM




TO BRING US BACK  TO  A PRE  'GO'S ENVIRONMENTAL  LEGISLATION.




SUCH RELATIVELY  LOW-LEVEL  POLLUTANTS  AS MIGHT  BE  LEGALLY




EMITTED BY TODAY'S  WEAKENED  LAWS  MIGHT  INSTEAD BE LEGALLY




HIGHLY  POLLUTANT  ALLOWABLE EMISSIONS  BY THE  TIME THIS




REFINERY  IS EVEN  BUILT.   THESE  ARE  THE  POLITICS WE MUST LIVE





WITH.

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                                                                 146
 1                2.   LITTLE OF  THE  FUEL PRESENTLY  MANUFACTURED




 2   BY  SDGSE AT  ENC1NA IS USED IN  THIS IMMEDIATE  AREA, AS WAS




 3   POINTED OUT  IN  THE TOUR  THAT  I  TOOK RECENTLY  THROUGH THAT




 4   FACILITY.   FREE-FLOWING  FUEL  TRANSFER  IS  COMMON.   THAT  THIS
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REFINERY  IS  GOING TO HELP  CLEAN UP SAN  DIEGO'S AIR  COULD BE




PURE SPECULATION AND PROPAGANDIZING  ON  THE PART OF  THE




PROPONENTS.




             3.   THE PROPONENTS STATE  THAT THERE ARE  NUMEROUS




FACTORS WHICH MAKE CARLSBAD SUCH AN  ATTRACTIVE COMMUNITY




FOR AN OIL  REFINERY, ALL WELL KNOWN  TO  YOU.   HOWEVER,  THERE




ARE A  FEW FACTS THAT PROPONENTS HAVE  NEGLECTED TO  DEAL  WITH.




REFINERIES  ARE NOT MAJESTIC EDIFICES  STANDING ALONE  AND REGAL




AS SOME ROMAN PALACE.   INSTEAD, THEY  GO WITH OTHER  FACTORIES.




THEY LIKE OTHER OIL REFINERIES FOR COMPANY.    IN OTHER AREAS




HUNDREDS  AND EVEN THOUSANDS OF ACRES  OF HIGHLY POLLUTANT




INDUSTRIAL  PARKS SURROUND OIL REFINERIES.




             WE HAVE THE PROMISES OF  SDG£E THAT THE  ADJACENT




400 ACRES--I  HAVE HEARD ALL KINDS OF NUMBERS--INDUSTR1AL PARK




IS NO  PROBLEM AT ALL.   BASED ON HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, 1  CHOOSE




TO LOOK ON  SUCH PROMISES VERY SKEPTICALLY.  MORALLY AND




PRACTICALLY,  THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY  MUST




CONSIDER  THE ACCOMPANYING  INDUSTRIAL PARK IN  FUTURE LAND




COMMITMENTS SUCH A REFINERY WILL BRING ABOUT  IN ORDER TO




ADEQUATELY  PROTECT THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF  THE  PEOPLE AND




TO COMPLY WITH THE VERY INTENT OF THAT AGENCY'S EXISTENCE.
\

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                                                                 147
             4.   AS  I  MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, CARLSBAD ALLEGEDLY





IS AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE  FOR ONE OIL  REFINERY AND  ACCOMPANYING




INDUSTRIAL  PARK.  OR  SO THE OIL  LOBBY  HAS CONVINCED SOME.





SUPPOSING  THAT THIS  IS  TRUE, THEN  DOES IT NOT  FOLLOW THAT




NORTHERN  SAN DIEGO  COUNTY IS ALSO  AN  ATTRACTIVE  PLACE TO




BUILD TWO,  FIVE, TEN,  OR EVEN MORE  OIL REFINERIES  AND




CONCOMITANT  INDUSTRIAL PARKS?




             IN THIS  NATION OF PLENTY  AND MIMICRY,  WE NEVER




STOP AT  ONE OF ANYTHING, EXCEPT  MAYBE  A GOOD  POLITICIAN OR




A GOOD  LAW.  GRANTED,  THERE IS SOME SLIGHT PROBLEM GETTING




REFINERIES  BUILT TODAY.  BY 1980,  THAT MAY NOT BE  TRUE,




GIVEN THE  STRENGTH  AND POLITICAL PRESSURES OF OUR  OIL




LOBBYISTS.   A BEAUTIFUL RECREATIONAL,  RESIDENTIAL, AND




AGRICULTURAL COASTAL AREA, AN AREA WITH VITAL RESOURCES




TO BE PRESERVED  IN  PERPETUITY MAY  BE  OPENED  UP TO  HIGHLY




INDUSTRIALIZED  USE.   ONE OIL  REFINERY IS  NOT  THE ONLY  ISSUE




UNLESS  THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY  CHOOSES TO  GO




AGAINST THE INTENT  OF  ITS MANDATE.




             YOU  MUST AT LEAST  IN THE SHORT  TERM DELAY  A




RECOMMENDATION  ON  THIS  VITAL  ISSUE, AS YOU  HAVE BEEN




REQUESTED  TO DO  BY  THE  SAN  DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL




DISTRICT.    I WELL -REALIZE THE HASTE WITH  WHICH THE PROPONENTS




WOULD  HAVE YOU  ACT, AND THEIR MOTIVATIONS.   I BELIEVE  WE




HAVE' HERE  A CLASSIC CASE OF THE  DOMINO THEORY OF  OIL  REFINERIE




IF  ONE  REFINERY  IS  BUILT, THERE  FOLLOWS  THE  CREATION  OF  LIKE

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    FACILITY AFTER  LIKE FACILITY,  EACH MORE  POLLUTING THAN  THE




    OTHER,  IF HISTORY CONTINUES  ITS PRESENT  COURSE, UNTIL NORTH




    SAN  DIEGO COUNTY  AIR IS  TO  THE NOXIOUS  LEVELS THAT HAVE BEEN




    PREDICTED ARE  POSSIBLE BY YOUR VERY OWN  EXPERTS.  BY YOUR  YES




    RECOMMENDATION  ON THIS  REFINERY, A REAL  BOOST TO  ITS




    ULTIMATE PASSAGE, YOU COULD BE HELPING  SAN DIEGO  BECOME THE




    PRE-'40'S PITTSBURGH OF  THE WEST, WHICH  YOUR- SCIENT1STS




    BELIEVE  IS  POSSIBLE, GIVEN  OUR PECULIAR  TOPOGRAPHY.




                (APPLAUSE)




                 CHAIRMAN WALKER:    I HAVE  A  COPY OF MRS.  LAW'S




    REMARKS.  THEY'RE  IN TWO PAGES, AS EDITED, AND THEN  THERE'S




    AN ATTACHMENT,  INFORMATION  RECEIVED  FROM DR. BFRGER,  MARINE




    BIOLOGIST,  WHICH IS ADDITIONAL  INFORMATION.  THE  THREE




    PAGES WE WILL  MARK AS EXHIBIT  34.




                 DUANA WANKET, CAUDOR  STREET, LEUCADIA,  REPRE-




    SENTING  LEUCADIA ALLIANCE.




                 MS. WANKET:   YES,  MY  NAME IS DUANA WANKET,  AND




    1  LIVE AT  17^1 CAUDOR STREET  IN  LEUCADIA.   I'M PRESIDENT




    OF THE LEUCADIA ALLIANCE.  THAT  IS A GROUP  OF  SEVERAL




    HUNDRED  HOMEOWNERS  IN LEUCADIA  WHICH IS, OF  COURSE,  SITUATED




    DIRECTLY  SOUTH OF  CARLSBAD.




                 OUR AREA  IS CONSIDERED THE  FLOWER  CAPITAL OF




    THE WORLD  AND, INDEED,  AGRICULTURE AND  FLOWER  GROWING ARE




24 | A MULT 1-Ml LL1ON DOLLAR  INDUSTRY  THERE.   THIS  INDUSTRY,  WHICH




    EMPLOYS  HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, IS  SIMPLY NOT  COMPATIBLE WITH  THE

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 1  PROPOSED REFINERY  AND THE ALLIED INDUSTRIES  WHICH SEEM TO  BE




 2  INEVITABLE.   IT  SEEMS TO BE POOR ECONOMICS,  TO  SAY THE




 3  LEAST,  TO ENDANGER AN ALREADY  ESTABLISHED  PROFITABLE AND




 4  BEAUTIFUL  INDUSTRY BY INSTALLING THIS REFINERY  IN UNS01LED




 5  TERRITORY WHEN THE ABSOLUTE NEED FOR THE FACILITY IS NOT




 6  ESTABLISHED.  WHEN WE'RE GIVEN CONFLICTING  REPORTS BY




 7  AUTHORITIES AND  ARE TOLD THAT  THE BEST ESTIMATES ARE ONLY




 8  CRYSTAL-BALL  PREDICTIONS, WE  CANNOT HELP BUT FEEL ANGERED




 9  AND  FRUSTRATED.




10              -THE  ADDITIONAL  DAMAGE TO OUR TOURIST INDUSTRY




11  WILL CERTAINLY OFFSET A GREAT  DEAL OF ANY  PROJECTED PROFIT.




12  AND  WHEN, AS  WE  HAVE BEEN TOLD,  THE REFINERY MAY BE PHASED




13  OUT  WITHIN A.  DECADE BECAUSE OF OIL AVAILABILITY, WHAT WILL




14  WE HAVE LEFT?  CERTAINLY NOT  THE BEAUTIFUL  COAST WE




15  PRESENTLY HAVE,  NOT THE RURAL  ATMOSPHERE THAT LITERALLY




16  THOUSANDS OF  PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PRESERVE.




17               WHY  NOT INVEST  SOME  OF THOSE MILLIONS IN A




18  PERMANENT ESTABLISHMENT OF  CLEAN SOLAR ENERGY.   FOR  INSTANCE,




19  A  SEA SOLAR SOURCE, WHICH  IS  PRESENTLY AVAILABLE THROUGH




20  LOCKHEED.  AND  I  HAVE READ  A  PIECE FROM THE PAPER WHICH




21   SAYS THAT THE GULF STREAM ALONE HAS THE POWER-GENERATING




22  CAPACITY FAR  IN  EXCESS OF ALL  HUMANITIES' NEEDS  THROUGH THE




23  YEAR 2000.  I WON'T GO INTO ANY  DETAIL ON  THAT.   BUT  IT'S




24  CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY  IN  THIS  AREA.  PARTICULARLY BECAUSE




25  OF THE TREMENDOUS  AMOUNT OF NATURAL SUNSHINE THA^ SAN DIEGO

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COUNTY  GETS.   1  DON'T  BELIEVE THIS  ASPECT OF NEED  HAS BEEN




DEALT WITH SUFFICIENTLY IN THE REPORTS.




             MAY I  SAY, TOO, THAT MY  FAMILY IS IN  CONSTRUCTION




AND KNOWS  FIRSTHAND  WHAT PRESENT  PROBLEMS THERE  ARE  IN THE




INDUSTRY,  BUT NONE OF  US IS WILLING TO SELL BREATHING SPACE




IN RETURN  FOR A FEW  SHORT-TERM WORKING DOLLARS.   HISTORICALLY,




LARGE  CONSTRUCTION  IS  BROUGHT  IN  FROM OUTSIDE  THE  COUNTY.




LOCAL  FIRMS ALMOST NEVER GET LOCAL  DOLLARS  OF  THIS MAGNITUDE.




             TO SUM IT  UP, THE  LEUCADIA ALLIANCE  SEES NO




BENEFIT AND MUCH  IRREPARABLE HARM BY THE  CONSTRUCTION OF




THIS  REFINERY.




              1 THANK  YOU.




            (APPLAUSE)




              CHAIRMAN WALKER:   1  HAVE A CARD HERE FROM MR.




MICHAEL MILLER OF CARLSBAD,  WHO  SAYS HE  HAS A  QUESTION.




WE'LL PLACE  THIS  WITH  THE  OTHER  QUESTIONS TO BE DEALT WITH




DURING THE OFF-THE-RECORD  COMMENT  PERIOD, IF YOU WISH.




              CLARENCE H.  DAWSON.




              TELL  US  WHERE  YOU  ARE  FROM,  MR. DAWSON.




              MR.  DAWSON:   CLARENCE  H.  DAWSON.   1 RESIDE  ON




 RANCHO AGUA  HEDIONDA Y  LOS  MONOS.   I  RESIDE JUST AT  THE




 EASTERLY  BOUNDARY, WHERE  THE CREEK  CROSSES THAT BOUNDARY.




              I  HAVE BEEN FAMILIAR WITH  THIS AREA FOR  OVER 40




 YEARS.   I  HAVE  HAD SOME EXPERIENCE  WITH  THE POWER COMPANY.




 1  KNOW THAT  THEIR RECORD ON CONSERVATION IS POOR, THAT  THEY

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                                                                 15 1
ARE NOT  CONCERNED WITH  CONSERVATION  OF  NATURAL RESOURCES OR




THE ENVIRONMENT.  IN  OUR PARTICULAR  RANCH THEY HAVE  CAUSED




EROSION,  AND THEY'RE  GENERALLY A NUISANCE TO US.   (LAUGHTER)




             I  HAVE  OBSERVED THE ATMOSPHERE AROUND  OIL




REFINERIES ON THE SOUTH SHORE OF PUERTO RICO, AND  ALSO OFF




OF RICHMOND IN SAN  FRANCISCO BAY.   I  ESTIMATE AT  LEAST SEVEN




MILES  ALONG THE SHORE EACH WAY FROM  THE REFINERY  YOU CAN




SMELL  THE EFFECTS OF  THE PRODUCTS  FROM THE REFINERY.  I'M




SURE  THAT WILL BE THE EXPERIENCE HERE IF THIS REFINERY  IS




BUILT.   IT WILL CERTAINLY EXTEND DOWN BELOW  LEUCADIA, AND




POSSIBLY NOT AS FAR AS  SAN CLEMENTE.  BUT  IT WILL  EXTEND NOT




ONLY  NORTH BUT SOUTH  ALONG THE SHORE.  IT WILL  EXTEND




EASTWARD FOR A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE.




             AS  1  SAY,  1 HAVE  LIVED IN THIS AREA  AND KNOW  IT




FOR OVER 40 YEARS,  AND  I KNOW  THAT THIS TIME OF  YEAR, IN




LATE  SUMMER,  IT  IS  NOT UNUSUAL TO  EXPERIENCE THE FUMES  FROM




OIL REFINERIES WHICH COME DOWN OVER THE OCEAN OFFSHORE  FROM




LONG  BEACH AND  REACH OFFSHORE  BREEZES HERE AND  COME  IN  AT




LEAST  AS FAR AS WHERE  I LIVE,  WHICH  IS FOUR  OR  FIVE MILES




INWARD.   I EXPECT THAT ANY REFINERY BUILT  IN THIS VICINITY





WOULD DO THE  SAME THING.




             ONE  THING  THAT  1  HAD  NOT OBSERVED  IN THE




NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS  OF  THE POWER  COMPANY'S  STATEMENTS  ABOUT




HOW  FINE THIS  THING WOULD BE,  WOULD BE ANY CONCERN  OR




STATEMENT ABOUT  THE EFFECT ON  THE  DOWNWIND AREAS.    I  KNOW

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                                                                 152
 1   THAT THE PREVAILING WINDS ARE  GENERALLY FROM  THE OCEAN,  FROM




 2   THE WEST TO  THE  EAST, AND 1  THINK THAT THE  POWER COMPANY




 3   SHOULD BE CONCERNED, AS  THEY ARE NOT, ABOUT THE PEOPLE




 4   LIVING AT LAKE  SAN MARCOS AND AS -FAR AWAY AS  ESCONDIDO.




 5   THERE HAS BEEN  NOTHING  IN THE NEWSPAPERS THAT 1 HAVE READ--




 6   AND I READ  THE  DAILY OCEANSIDE PAPER EVERY  DAY--ABOUT THE




 7   POWER COMPANY  HAVING ANY  CONCERN WHATSOEVER ABOUT THE AREAS




 8   1  JUST MENTIONED.    I DON'T  BELIEVE THEY HAVE  ANY.




 9                NOTHING HAS  BEEN SAID PUBLICLY  ABOUT THE EFFECT




10   ON THE FLORA AND FAUNA  IN THIS AREA.  MY WIFE TELLS ME  SHE




11   HAS OBSERVED IN VARIOUS  PLACES ON OUR RANCH SOME OF OUR  OAK




12   TREES HAVE  ALREADY BEEN  AFFECTED AND TURNED BROWN BY THE




13   ATMOSPHERE,  THE CHANGE  OF ATMOSPHERE  IN  RECENT YEARS.    I  AM




14   CONCERNED ABOUT THE  FLORA AND FAUNA  BECAUSE OF THE NATURE  OF




15   OUR RANCH AND THE  LAND  WHICH WE GAVE TO  THE UNIVERSITY  OF




16   CALIFORNIA  FOR AN  ECOLOGICAL PRESERVE  IN  LOS MONOS CANYON.




17   1  DON'T  BELIEVE THEY HAVE  BEEN NOTIFIED.   AT LEAST  1 DON'T




18   SEE ANY  OF  THEIR REPRESENTATIVES HERE AT  THIS  MEETING.   THEY




19   ARE GREATLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE EFFLUENT  FROM AN  OIL




20   REFINERY WOULD DO  TO THE WILD ANIMAL  LIFE  AND  THE FLOWERS




21   AND OTHER  PLANTS GROWING IN LOS MONOS  CANYON.




22                I'M TRYING  TO WATCH TWO  DIFFERENT  NOTES AT  THE
23




24




25
SAME TIME,  AND I'M NOT  MAKING THE BEST  OF  IT.




             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   YOU'RE  DOING VERY WELL.




             MR.  DAWSON:   WELL, THANK  YOU.

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                                                                  153
  1                I HAVE  HEARD THIS  MORNING SOME  EXPRESS IONS -OF




  2  THE  LABOR UNION  ATTITUDE.  THEY'RE ALL FOR  A  REFINERY




  3  REGARDLESS OF WHERE IT IS OR WHAT IT DOES BECAUSE IT WOULD




  4  PRODUCE,  THEY THINK AND SAY, MORE JOBS.  WELL,  WE'RE ALL  FOR




  5  MORE  JOBS, PARTICULARLY AT A TIME WHEN THE  CURRENT DEPRESSION




  6  IS ON US, BUT I  REMEMBER THAT  THE LABOR  INTERESTS CAME OUT




  7  TO ONE MEETING  I  ATTENDED AT MY  CHURCH AND  SUPPORTED THE




  8  VIET  NAM WAR BECAUSE IT PRODUCED MORE JOBS, WHICH IT DID,




  9  EXCEPT FOR THE  55,000 WHO DIED THERE.  I'M  ALL  FOR LABOR




10  UNIONS.   1 WORKED FOR SCALE MYSELF AT ONE TIME,  BUT  I'M NOT




11  IN FAVOR OF BUILDING A REFINERY  JUST TO  PRODUCE  JOBS WHICH




12  WILL  ALTER THE  ENVIRONMENT IN  WHICH MOST OF US  LIVE EXCEPT




13  SOME  OF THE PEOPLE  WHO URGED US  THIS MORNING.   SO, I  URGE




14  THIS  BOARD TO GO  EASY.   DON'T  MAKE ANY QUICK  DECISIONS.   GET




15  THE  REACTION OF  THE PEOPLE AT  LAKE SAN MARCOS  AND BUENA AND




16  SAN  MARCOS AND  ESCOND1DO.  FIND  OUT WHAT THEY  THINK.   DOUBLE




17  CHECK ANY INFORMATION THAT COMES FROM THE POWER COMPANY,  AND




18  PARTICULARLY THEIR  ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT  REPORTS.   I  HAVE  HAD




19  SOME  EXPERIENCE  IN  READING THESE RECENTLY,  AND  MY OBSERVATION




20  ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS HAS BEEN THAT  THEY REFLECT




21  THE  VIEWS OF THE  SCHEMERS AND  SOMETHING  THEY  WANT TO PROJECT.




22  THERE'S AN OLD  SAYING:   WHO PAYS THE PIPER  CALLS  THE TUNE.




23  AND  THAT'S WHAT  HAPPENS WITH ENVIRONMENTAL  IMPACT REPORTS.




24  WHEN  THE POWER  COMPANY  PAYS FOR  ONE, THE REPORT  REFLECTS




25  THEIR VIEWS.  SO,  LOOK  OUT.

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                                                                 15*4
 1                SO,  I  ASK  THIS  BOARD --  IN  FACT, ANYONE  CONCERNED




 2   WITH THIS  PROBLEM TO  LOOK  ASKANCE AT  ANYTHING THAT  IS




 3   PRESENTED  FROM THE POWER  COMPANY OR  FROM AGENTS  THAT THEY




 4   HIRE.   I'M FRANK TO SAY  THAT 1 BELIEVE  THAT  IF THIS  ACTION,




 5   IF THIS MATTER,  WAS LEFT  TO A VOTE OF THE PEOPLE  AFFECTED,




 6   NOT JUST THIS AREA RIGHT  AROUND DOWNTOWN CARLSBAD,  BUT THE




 7   PEOPLE  TO  THE EAST AS  FAR  AS ESCONDIDO,  I THINK  IF  THEY




 8   WERE POLLED AND THERE  WAS  A VOTE,  IT  WOULD  BE DEFEATED.  SO,




 9   I  ASK YOU,  LASTLY, AGAIN,  GO EASY.




10                THANK YOU.




I]               (APPLAUSE)




12                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  WE HAD STATED  THAT WE  WOULD




13   HAVE AN OFF-THE-RECORD SESSION  IN  ORDER TO  ANSWER QUEST IONS.




14   I  HAVE  11  CARDS LEFT,  BUT IT  LOOKS  TO ME LIKE THIS  WOULD BE




15   A GOOD  HOUR TO TAKE AM OFF-THE-RECORD SESSION SO THAT  IT




16   WILL NOT  BE UNREASONABLY FORESHORTENED AND,  THEREFORE, THE




17   REMAINING  PEOPLE, WHO  HAVE PUT CARDS   IN WILL BE  ASKED TO




18   COME BACK  THIS EVENING.   WE WILL  BE  HERE AT 7:30.
19




20




21




22




23




24




25
             SO, WITH  THAT,  WE WILL  NOW STAND AT  RECESS





UNTIL  7:30.

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                                                                155
 1                                 SATURDAY  EVENING SESSION




 2                                 AUGUST  23,  1975, 7:30  P.M.



 g                              	 	 _





 4               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  WE  WILL  GO BACK ON  THE  RECORD.




 5   THIS  IS THE EVENING SESSION CALLED BY  THE ENVIRONMENTAL




 6   PROTECTION AGENCY.   WE HAD A RATHER  LONG OUTLINE  OF WHAT




 7   THE  HEARING WAS  ALL ABOUT THIS  MORNING.   I.TOOK QUITE  A LITTLE




 8   TIME  TO DO THAT.   UNLESS THERE  IS SOME NEED  TO  REPEAT, WE




 9   DON'T NEED TO  DO THAT TONIGHT.   THEY LOOK TO  ME  LIKE ALL




10   FAMILIAR FACES.




11               SOME LITTLE HOUSEKEEPING HERE.   ONE  OF THE




12   PEOPLE WHO HAD REGISTERED TO SPEAK STATED SHE WAS NOT  ABLE




13   TO COME THIS EVENING, AND LEFT  A DOCUMENT SHE WANTED PUT




14   INTO THE RECORD, SO  I HAVE  HERE A DOCUMENT CALLED "SIMULATION




15   IN THE SERVICE OF SOCIETY"  THAT WAS SUBMITTED BY' IRIS  SANKEY




16   OF THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY ENERGY  ELEMENT.  THIS WILL BE




17   EXHIB IT NO.  35.




18        ,       MR.  REHBERG SPOKE  THIS MORNING,  AND I HAVE HERE




19   A COPY OF HIS  REMARKS, WHICH WILL BE MARKED  EXHIBIT 36.  HE




20   HAD SOME CHARTS ON THE V1EWGRAPH.  ONE  OF  THEM  CALLED "MOST




21   LIKELY CASE, ALASKAN  CRUDE  SURPLUS  IN WEST COAST  DISTRICT  5."




22   THE NFXT  IS  A  SHEET  ENTITLED  "DEMAND FOR REFINED  PRODUCT AND




23   CAPACITY TO  PROCESS  IN DISTRICT 5."  THE NEXT SHEET IS
24




25
LABELED "DISTRICT 5 PROJECTED LOW-SULPHUR  RESIDUAL FUEL OIL




DEMAND AND  CAPACITY ADDITIONS UNDER CONSTRUCTION."  ALL THREE

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                                                                156
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   SHEETS  WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 37.

                WE HAVE  SOME QUESTIONS  FROM MRS. WENRICK  OF

   COMMON  CAUSE, AND  SHE WANTS HER  QUESTIONS READ  INTO  THE

   RECORD.   1  WILL  DO THIS.  THE FIRST QUESTION:

                "WHAT  IS THE LONG-TERM  EFFECT OF REFINERY

   EMISSION ON PERSONS  WITH RESPIRATORY DISEASE AND THOSE

   ENGAGED IN VIGOROUS  PHYSICAL ACTIVITIES  (HIGH  SCHOOL

   ATHLETICS, ET CETERA)?'1

                "WHAT  IS THE EFFECT  OF THE POLLUTION ON PLANTS

   AND AGRICULTURE  IN GENERAL?"

                THESE  QUESTIONS  WILL BE MADE  A  PART OF THE  RECORD

    THERE WAS  AN  OFF-THE-RECORD  DISCUSSION OF SOME OF  THE

    QUESTIONS  EARLIER  THIS  AFTERNOON.   THAT  IS  THE REASON  WE

    RECESSED AT  4:30,  WHICH 15  EARLIER  THAN  CUSTOMARY.   I  APOLO-

    GIZE TO THE  PEOPLE WHO  WERE  INCONVENIENCED BY  THE  EARLY

    RECESS AND HAVE HAD  TO  COME  BACK TONIGHT, BUT  WE  DID  THINK

    ,T APPROPRIATE  TO HAVE  SOME  OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION  FOR

    THE  PEOPLE WHO  HAD  SUBMITTED QUESTIONS.

                 NOW,  THE  NEXT  CARD  1 HAVE  IS MR. JOEL  PRESCOTT,

    WHO.IS  HERE THIS  EVENING.   HE WAS  HERE THIS MORNING  BUT WAS

    UNABLE  TO  ADDRESS US.

22 !              MR. PRESCOTT:   GOOD  EVENING.  MY NAME  IS  JOEL

23 I PRESCOTT.   I'M A  REAL ESTATE BROKER.   I'M A RESIDENT  OF
   i
24  CARLSBAD,  5431  LOS  ROBLES  DRIVE.   I'M IN THE  TERRAMAR AREA,

25  WHICH  IS  JUST TO  THE WEST OF WHERE THE REFINERY  IS TO BE BU1L"

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21
 I'M  ALSO A MEMBER  OF COMMUNITY  CAUSE.   1  DON'T KNOW WHETHER




 I'M  IN GOOD STANDING OR NOT,  OR.WILL BE WHEN. I'M THROUGH




 SAYING WHAT I GOT  TO SAY.   I  AM TOTALLY IN  FAVOR OF HAVING




 THE  REFINERY BUILT.





             I HAVE MANY REASONS FOR FEELING  THIS WAY.




 LISTING THE REASONS  NOT NECESSARILY IN  THE  ORDER OF THEIR




 WEIGHT IN MY MIND,  BUT AS THEY  COME TO  ME.   I  DON'T THINK




 THERE  WILL BE ANY  DETRIMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL  EFFECTS OF THE




 REFINERY AT ALL.   THE ECONOMIC  CONSIDERATIONS  OF HAVING THE




 REFINERY IN THE AREA 1  THINK  FAR OUTWEIGH ANY  POSSIBLE




 DETRIMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION.  THE JOBS THAT WILL BE




 CREATED NOT ONLY  IN  THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE  REFINERY; BUT




 ONCE  IT'S UP, THE  PERMANENT JOBS 1  THINK  WILL  BE A BENEFIT.




 THE  INCREASED TAX  BASE  AND  THE  INDUSTRY THAT WILL BE PULLED




 IN TO  THE JAPATUL  INDUSTRIAL  PARK AND THE OTHER INDUSTRIAL




 PARKS  IN THE AREA  I  THINK WILL  BE OF IMMEASURABLE BENEFIT




 TO CARLSBAD AND THE  NORTH COUNTY.





             1  THINK  THAT IF THE APPLICATION  FOR THE REFINERY




 IS DENIED,  IT WOULD  BE  ANOTHER  OF MANY  INFRINGEMENTS ON




 PERSONAL PROPERTY  RIGHTS WHICH  I  THINK  THERE ARE FAR TOO




 MANY GOING  ON AS IT  IS.
22               LASTLY,  I  AM A MEMBER  OF COMMUNITY  CAUSE.   I  HAVE
   i
23 ! OBSERVED THEM.   I  JOINED THEM  PRIMARILY BECAUSE  ]  FELT THEY
24




25
WERE COMPLETELY OFF  BASE,  AND  I WANTED TO WATCH  WHAT  THEY




WERE DOING.   IT'S MY  OBSERVATION  THAT THEY ARE GUIDED BY

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  1  EMOTIONALISM RATHER  THAN FACTS, AND  THEY HAVE THE  ATTITUDE,





  2  "MY  MIND IS MADE  UP;  DON'T CONFUSE ME  WITH THE FACTS."




  3              (APPLAUSE)





  4               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  THANK  YOU, MR. PRESCOTT.




  5               I  HAVE A-CARD FOR A BARBARA TICE WILLIAMS AT




  6  MIRA SAL, VISTA, CALIFORNIA,  REPRESENTING HERSELF.




  7               BARBARA  TICE WILLIAMS?




  8               LOU PRITTEN OF RIDGEMOOR DRIVE, CARSLBAD.




  9               LOU PRITTEN?





10               THOSE WHOSE NAMES I PASSED OVER WILL BE  CALLED




11  AGAIN.





12               MR. PRITTEN?




13               MR. PRITTEN:  GOOD EVENING.   MY NAME IS  LOU




14  PRITTEN.   I  LIVE AT  330 CHINQUAPIN  IN  CARLSBAD.




15               1  WOULD  LIKE TO STATE THE  REASON I  HAVE  BEEN




16  FIGHTING POLLUTION HERE IN CARLSBAD.   I  HAVE LIVED IN




17  CALIFORNIA ALL MY LIFE.   1  CAN WELL  REMEMBER WHEN  THERE




18  WASN'T  SUCH A THING  THEY CALLED SMOG OR AIR POLLUTION.  IN




19  1950  I  MOVED INTO LOS  ANGELES, AND  I WATCHED THE AIR




20  POLLUTION GET WORSE  EACH DAY.   MY CHILDREN GOT SO  THEY




21  COULDN'T GO OUT ON THE  PLAYGROUND DURING THE SMOG  ATTACK.




22  IT'S  SO BAD NOW I  CAN'T RIDE MY BICYCLE  TO WORK,  WHICH  1




23  THOUGHT WAS  GOOD FOR  THE ECOLOGY.   BUT THE SMOG IS SO HEAVY,




24  YOU'RE  NOT  SUPPOSED  TO  EXERT YOURSELF.   STAY INDOORS AND




25  NOT  BREATHE.

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                                                                159
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             ANYHOW,  I HAD  A SERIOUS ILLNESS  IN THE FAMILY,




WHICH MAY  OR MAY NOT  BE  CAUSED BY POLLUTION.   THERE IS SOME




INDICATION THERE IS.  AND  WITH MY WIFE'S  BRONCHITIS NOT




CLEARING  UP AND MY CHILDREN NOT BEING  ALLOWED TO PLAY ON




THE PLAYGROUND, I MOVED  TO CARLSBAD.   I  SHOULD SAY THEY




MOVED TO  CARLSBAD.   I STILL COMMUTE TO LOS  ANGELES.  BUT  I




WOULD RATHER HAVE MY  FAMILY HERE AT LEAST WITH AN ENVIRONMENT




THAT  1  HAD WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THAT  IS  SOMEWHAT HEALTHY




THAN  LIVING IN LOS ANGELES AND BE SUBJECT TO ALL THE POLLU-




TION  THAT GOES ON DAILY  THERE.




             1  WILL SAY  I  AM A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT THIS




MEETING TODAY.  IN FACT,  I AM DEEPLY WORRIED ABOUT IT




BECAUSE YOU HAVE COME OUT WITH A TENTATIVE APPROVAL.  NOW,




READING THIS DOCUMENT HERE,  I JUST  CAN'T FATHOM HOW YOU  CAN




GET AN  APPROVAL OUT  OF  THIS  DOCUMENT HERE.   YOU HAVE AIR




POLLUTION  INCREASING --  WHAT  IS  IT?   26,000 POUNDS A DAY




FROM  THE REFINERY AND YET'S  IT'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE  A REDUCED




EMISSIONS  IN THE  BASIN.   ACTUALLY,  IT  WON'T BE  REDUCED




EMISSIONS  IN THE  BASIN.   YOU'RE  HOPING TO BREAK EVEN  IF  THE




WORST POSSIBLE  SCENARIO HAPPENS.




             NOW,  EVEN SUCH A RIGHT-WING MAGAZINE  AS READERS'




DIGEST  CAME OUT  LAST WEEK  AND REPORTED THEY HAD GRAVE  DOUBTS
23 'ABOUT  THE  NATURAL GAS  SUPPLY IN THIS COUNTRY.   THEY CITED
24




25
 REPORTS WHERE  THE NATURAL GAS  RESERVES WERE UNDERESTIMATED




 BY  A THOUSAND  PERCENT.  NOW,  TO  MY KNOWLEDGE,  THERE HAS BEEN

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                                                                160
NO CLEAR-CUT ANALYSIS  OF  THE NATURAL  GAS  RESERVES  IN THIS





COUNTRY.   YET, THIS IFFY SCENARIO SAYS  WE  WON'T HAVE ANY




NATURAL  GAS  SO, CONSEQUENTLY, WE WILL  MAKE NATURAL GAS AT




MACARIO  AND  THAT WILL  REDUCE POLLUTION.   MAYBE.




             BUT IF  YOU WANT TO BE IFFY ABOUT IT, YOU CAN




HAVE ALL KINDS OF  IFFYS.   YOU CAN HAVE AN IFFY:   IF THAT




LARGE  TANKER HITS  THE  JETTY OUT HERE  AT ENCINA AND CATCHES .




FIRE,  THIS IS GOING  TO CAUSE A LOT  OF POLLUTION.   YOU  CAN




HAVE AN  IFFY:  IF  AN  AIRPLANE HITS  ONE OF THEM SYNTHETIC




GAS TANKS OUT AT THE  REFINERY, YOU'D  HAVE AN AWFUL LOT  OF




POLLUTION.  YOU'D  PROBABLY LOSE RANCHO CARLSBAD.   I MEAN,




IFFYS  CAN GO ALL THE  WAY ALONG THE  LINE.   WE CAN  IFFY  ALL




NIGHT,  BUT  I DON'T  THINK THAT'S THE BASIS TO DECLARE  THAT




THIS PASSES  THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.




             NOW, THERE HAS BEEN A  LOT OF PEOPLE  TESTIFY  HERE




TODAY,  AND A  LOT OF PEOPLE THAT STUCK THEIR NECK  OUT  BY




TESTIFYING.    1 WANT TO COMMEND MR.  SOMMERVILLE  FOR THE




TESTIMONY HE MADE.   IT'S REFRESHING TO HEAR A  PUBLIC  EMPLOYEE




STICKING HIS NECK  OUT.   I JUST HOPE THIS AGENCY  WILL'BUCK




THE  PRESSURES.  AND I  KNOW THERE  ARE MANY PRESSURES.   WE HAVE




HAD  STANDARD  OIL OF CALIFORNIA LOBBYING  IN CARLSBAD,  WE  HAVE




HAD  ALL KINDS  OF OUTSIDE PRESSURES.  THIS  ISN'T  JUST  A LITTLE




REFINERY  FOR  THE CITY OF CARLSBAD.   THE WHOLE  COUNTRY IS




 INTERESTED  TO  SEE  IT BECAUSE  NOBODY WANTS A REFINERY,  AND




THEY  WANT TO  MAKE  SURE THIS  GOES  IN,  BUCK THE  TREND  WHERE

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                                                                161
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REFINERIES  HAVE BEEN TURNED DOWN IN THE  REST  OF THE COUNTRY.




            I  DON'T KNOW.   THIS REPORT HERE,  THE BASIS OF




THE APPROVAL  ON THIS REPORT,  SEEMED TO ME  A  HIGH SCHOOL




STUDENT WHO COULDN'T SEE  THROUGH THIS SHOULDN'T GRADUATE.




             I  WANT TO  SAY ONE OTHER THING  HERE ABOUT SAN




DIEGO GAS  B ELECTRIC.   MR.  LAFFOON MADE  A  CRITICISM THAT




THEY HAVE  BEEN PICKED  ON  AND THEY HAVE BEEN  MISREPRESENTED




AND EVERYBODY IS PICKING  ON THEM.  AND THEN  HE MAKES THREE




MISSTATEMENTS IN HIS TESTIMONY.  ONE, THAT SAN DIEGO GAS  £




ELECTRIC  IS A BENEVOLENT  ORGANIZATION, SOCIAL-MINDED AND  SO




FORTH.  MY  CONTENTION  IS  SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC  IS IN




BUSINESS  TO MAKE A PROFIT FIRST, AND  SOCIAL  HAS NOTHING  TO




DO WITH  IT.  THEY ARE  IN  BUSINESS TO  MAKE  A  PROFIT.




             SECONDLY,  HE  STATED  THERE ARE  NO OTHER  ENERGY




SOURCES  IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY.   IF THAT WAS  TRUE, WE  WOULD




ALL BE  DEAD,  OBVIOUSLY.   WE HAVE THE  SUN,  WE HAVE  THE  WIND,




WE HAVE  INNUMERABLE OTHER ENERGY SOURCES BESIDES OIL.




             WE TALK ABOUT OIL.   THERE  IS A BIG  LIE  GOING  ON




IN THIS  WHOLE THING, AND IT'S  A  HUGE  LIE,  AND WE HEAR  IT




OVER AND  OVER AND OVER AGAIN:   "WE ARE  GOING TO MAKE A CLEAN




FUEL.   WE ARE GOING  TO MAKE LOW-SULPHUR  OIL.  THAT'S GOING




TO BE  A CLEAN FUEL."   THAT  IS  MOT A  CLEAN FUEL.  THAT  IS  A
23 ! FILTHY,  DIRTY FUEL.   LOW-SULPHUR OIL  IS  A  DIRTY FUEL.   YOU
24




25
 REMOVED ONE OF THE  INGREDIENTS.   YOU REMOVED THE  SULPHUR.




 BUT  IT'S A FILTHY  FUEL.  NOW,  TO  SAY THIS IS A  CLEAN  FUEL IS

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                                                                 162
    SAME OILY  POLLUTION.




 2               1  WENT  TO  THE PUBLIC HEARING  WHEN SDGSE WAS



 3  REQUESTING PERMISSION  FOR THE FOURTH  UNIT AT THEIR ENCINA



    PLANT,  AND I  WAS THE ONLY ONE PROTESTING  POLLUTION AT THAT.



 5  POINT.   THIS  WAS A  NUMBER OF YEARS AGO.   SO, THE FIGHT THAT



 6  MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE  BEEN PUTTING UP  AGAINST POLLUTION  IN



    THIS AREA  GOES BACK A  NUMBER OF YEARS.



 8               UNDER OATH I  GAVE EVIDENCE  OF THIS POLLUTION



 9  AND BROUGHT SAMPLES OF IT ON PAPER TOWELING THAT I HAD TO



10  USE TWICE  A DAY TO  GET THE GUCK OUT SO  IT WOULDN'T GO BACK



11  INTO THE FILTER SYSTEM.   ALTHOUGH THE  CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC



12  UTILITIES  COMMISSION THAT WAS HAVING  THE  PUBLIC HEARING



13  ORDERED AN INVESTIGATION,  AS FAR AS I  KNOW, NOTHING WAS  DONE.



14  AND WE  DON'T  KNOW TO THIS DAY WHERE THAT  POLLUTION COMES  FROM.



15               A  SWIMMING POOL IS NOT IMPORTANT EXCEPT AS IT
   ]


16  DRAMATICALLY  REVEALS THE  OVERALL POLLUTION.  A POOL CAN  BE



17  CLEANED, AND  I  HOPE THERE IS NO BUILDUP  IN THE PIPES WHICH



18  WOULD BE VERY  SERIOUS  AND VERY COSTLY  TO  ALL POOL OWNERS.



19  PEOPLE  CAN WASH THEIR  HAIR AND THEIR  CLOTHES AND, AS A



20  NEIGHBOR SAID,  YOU  CAN WASH YOUR HOUSE  WITH A DETERGENT



21   BEFORE  REPAINTING,  WHICH  HE SAID HE HAD  TO DO TO GET OFF AN



22  OIL SCUM.   HOWEVER, STUDIES HAVE ALREADY  SHOWN THAT THE



23  POLLUTION  HAS.DAMAGED  THE FLOWERS IN  THIS AREA,  ACCORDING



24  TO MAYOR FRAZEE, IN A  RECENT SPEECH QUOTED IN THE BLADE



25  TRIBUNE.   AND  WHAT  ONE BREATHES, AS FAR AS I KNOW, IS STILL

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UNKNOWN AND  I  SUPPOSE COULD  BE  VERY SERIOUS  IN  TIME.




             PEOPLE MUST  TRUST  SOMEONE TO HELP THEM,  AND THAT




IS WHY  I'M HERE TONIGHT.   THANK YOU.




           (APPLAUSE)




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU, MRS. BROWNLEY.




             WILL YOU LEAVE A COPY OF YOUR  REMARKS  FOR OUR




RECORD?




             MRS. BROWNLEY:  YES.  THEY'RE  ONLY  IN  PENCIL,




BUT  THERE  THEY ARE.




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:  A COPY OF  MRS.  BROWNLEY's




REMARKS  WILL,  FOR  THE  PURPOSES OF THIS HEARING, BE MARKED




EXHIBIT  38.




             GENE JACKSON?




             MR. JACKSON:  MY NAME  is GENE  JACKSON,   i  LIVE




AT  1120  CHINQUAPIN  IN  CARLSBAD, AND  I AM GOING  TO SPEAK  AS




A  PRIVATE  CITIZEN.




             MR. LAFFOON AND MR. BEAN RAISED SEVERAL  POINTS
18 ' IN THEIR  PRESENTATION TODAY  WHICH REQUIRE COMMENT.   REFERENCE
19




20




21




22
 BY  MR.  BEAN TO CARLSBAD AS A UNIQUE  TANKER PORT.  ALSO,




 REFERRED EUPHEMISTICALLY BY MR.  LAFFOON  AS AN OFFLOADING




 TERMINAL.  THE FACILITY WAS FIRST  INDEED AN OFFLOADING




 FACILITY, BUT  IN  THE RECENT PAST  IT  HAS  BECOME AN OIL  PORT
23 ! FOR ALL  OF SAN DIEGO  COUNTY,  CONTRIBUTING  TO  AIR POLLUTION
24




25
 THROUGH BARGE  VENTING, REFERRED  TO  BY  MR.  GRAY IN HIS




 PRESENTATION  IN  THE AFTERNOON HEARING.   AND HOW THIS CONDITION

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AROSE  IS  INTERESTING  AND,  I  BELIEVE,  RELEVANT TO THIS  HEARING.




             WHEN THE  CITY  OF CARLSBAD PASSED THE ORDINANCE




APPROVING CONSTRUCTION OF  ENCINA  5,  THERE WERE TWO  RELATIVELY




SMALL  FUEL TANKS  INCLUDED  IN THE  PROJECT.  THE TANKS




GRANDFATHERED OUT  OF  THE ENCINA  PROJECT FROM THE COASTAL




COMMISSION AS ONE  450,000-BARREL  STORAGE TANK AND  HIGH-SPEED




PUMP  STATION.  THIS,  WHEN COMPLETED, WILL PERMIT OFFLOADING




STORAGE AND FILLING OF STORAGE  TANKS FOR TRANSMISSION OF




FUEL  TO THE SOUTH  BAY GENERATING  FACILITY.   THIS  IS BECOMING




NECESSARY BECAUSE  TANKERS OF THE  SIZE PRESENTLY  BEING USED,




AS  INDICATED BY  MR. BEAN TODAY,  ARE TOO  LARGE  TO  BE




ACCOMMODATED BY  THE 24TH STREET LANDING  IN  S'AN  DIEGO HARBOR.




THE TANK APPROVED AND UNDER  CONSTRUCTION  BY  SDGCF  WILL  BE




A MAJOR AIR-POLLUTING SOURCE  ITSELF.




              THE  BARGE VENTING  REFERRED  TO  BY MR.  GRAY,  NOT




 READY AT  THE PRESENT  TIME,  PERHAPS  WILL  INCREASE DRAMATICALLY




AS  SOUTH  BAY BECOMES  INCREASINGLY DEPENDENT ON THE  INCREASING




 BARGE TRAFFIC  FOR  ITS  FUELING.    1 CALL  TO THE AGENCY'S




 ATTENTION  THAT  NONE OF  THIS  WAS  PART  OF  THE PACKAGE  THAT




 WENT WITH  ENCINA  IN THE FIRST PLACE.   IT GREW.   WE  FOUND OUT




 ABOUT  IT AFTER  THE FACT,  WHEN ASKING  QUESTIONS ABOUT  ENCINA 5.




              MR.  BEAN  ALSO REFERRED  TO THE HAPPY COINCIDENCE'




 THAT  VARIOUS PIPELINES  INTERSECT AT THE  REFINERY  SITE.   ALL




 THOSE  PIPELINES JUST  KIND OF ACCIDENTLY  JOINED THERE.   ISN'T




 THAT  A  GREAT PLACE TO PUT THE REFINERY?.  MR. BEAN  WAS IN ERROR

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                                                                165
WHEN HE  REFERRED TO  THE  EXISTING 30-INCH  GAS MAIN.  PART




OF THE  EXISTING LINE IS  MUCH SMALLER.   SIX INCHES  IS  THE




SIZE THAT I  HEARD.




             CARLSBAD ONLY BECAME AWARE  OF THE QUESTION  WHEN




THE  POTTER CONSTRUCTION  COMPANY  SUDDENLY  BEGAN RUNNING  PIPE




IN THE  LAST MONTH  AT THE RATE REPORTED  IN THE NEWSPAPER AS




A THOUSAND FEET A  DAY,  WHERE THE  LINES  TERMINATE,  COINCT-




DENTALLY, AT THE  REFINERY SITE.




             THE  ISSUE THAT  I SEE  HERE IS  THAT WE  ARE  BEING




PRESENTED WITH A  SATELLITE  FACILITY FOR THE REFINERY  FOR




ANY  AGENCY APPROVAL  THAT HAS GONE  WITH  IT.  MR.  LAFFOON




SPOKE  IN PASSING  ABOUT PLANS FOR AM LNG FACILITY,  WHICH  IS




NOT  PRESENTLY  BEING  DEVELOPED.   THINK OF THE  COMBINED  IMPACT




OF  THE  TANKER  PORT,  LNG STORAGE  FACILITY, PIPELINE CONSTRUC-




TION,  TANK FARM  FOR  THE REFINERY FOR OIL STORAGE  TO BE BURNED




AT  ENC1NA AND, OF COURSE, NOT  NECESSARILY TO  BE  BURNED IN




SAN  DIEGO COUNTY  AT  ALL  IF  THE  STATE OR  FEDERAL  AGENCIES




DECIDE  OTHERWISE.   THEN WE  BEGIN TO SEE  THE  REALITY OF WHAT




MR.  LAFFOON  UNDERSTOOD WAS  TO  BE A FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY,





NOT  JUST A REFINERY.




              TRANSPORTATION  BY  SHIP OF  LNG,  NATURALLY SOMETHING




 THAT'S NO  LONGER BEING  CONTEMPLATED.   EVERYTHING  IS ALWAYS
23   ISOLATED.   TRANSPORTATION BY SHIP  OF LNG, IF  IT  DOES  BECOME
24




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 A REALITY,  OFFERS THE  POSSIBILITY FOR  THE  ULTIMATE IN AIR




 POLLUTION.   THE EXPLOSIVE  FORCE COULD  DESTROY MUCH OF THE  CITY

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                                                                 166
 1  I OF CARLSBAD.  BUT WE CAN  BE  REASSURED THAT  MR.  LAFFOON SAID
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IT ISN'T  AT  THE MOMENT  AN ACTIVE PART  OF  THE PLAN FOR  THE




FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY.




             THEN, OF  COURSE,  WE REMAIN WITH THE QUESTION  OF




THE INDUSTRIAL PARK.  MR.  BEAN INDICATED  THAT NAPTHA  IS




THE SECOND PRODUCT OF  THE REFINERY,  THAT IN A FREE ECONOMY




NOTHING WAS  SURE UNTIL  IT WAS UNDER CONTRACT, AND THAT




NAPTHA  IS THE BASIS FOR THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRY.




             MR. LAFFOON, WHO IS VICE-PRESIDENT OF SAN  DIEGO




GAS AND -ELECTRIC, SPOKE OF THE COMPANY WANTING THIS  SOPHIS-




TICATED,  PRESUMABLY RELATIVELY CLEAN INDUSTRIAL PARK,  BUT




HE INDICATED QUITE  CLEARLY THAT ULTIMATELY THE CITY  OF




CARLSBAD  WOULD DECIDE THROUGH SUCH  PROCESSES AS ZONING WHAT




HAPPENS TO THE INDUSTRIAL PARK EVEN THOUGH THE JAPATUL




COMPANY,  WHICH OWNS THE LAND, IS A  WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY




OF SAN  DIEGO GAS &  ELECTRIC.
             WE HAVE  HEARD MUCH OF  THE  SYNERGISTIC  EFFECT OF
18  THESE VARIOUS  QUESTIONS  TODAY.  IT'S  A  GREAT TERM.   BUCKMASTER




19  FULLER DID  US  A LOT OF  REAL SERVICE  IN  DEVELOPING THIS




20  CONCEPT.   I'M  NOT SURE  WE ALL USE  IT  WITH FULL AWARENESS  OF




21  EVERYTHING  THAT GOES WITH IT.




22               THE QUESTION OF CREDIBILITY WAS ALSO RAISED




23 ! TODAY.   I WOULD SUBMIT  THAT FOR MANY  OF US IN CARLSBAD THERE




24 1 1S A SYNERGISTIC EFFECT  ALSO RELATIVE TO CREDIBILITY.  WE
25
DON'T  BELIEVE 1*4 TONS  OF ADDITIONAL  POLLUTANTS A  DAY  MEANS

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                                                                167
   LESS POLLUTION.   WE HAVE  BEEN MISLEAD  TOO  MANY TIMES BY
2  PACIFIC  RESOURCES AND  SAN DIEGO GAS  &  ELECTRIC.   IT'S MY
3  PERSONAL CONV1CTI ON THAT SAN DIEGO GAS  £  ELECTRIC IS ARRO-
   GANTLY  GOING FORWARD WITH ITS COMPLETE PLANS  IN THE CARLSBAD
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FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY  WITHOUT ANY FORMAL  APPROVAL AND

SAN DIEGO  GAS  & ELECTRIC  WILL SUBSEQUENTLY  FALL BACK ON

THE ARGUMENT,  AS THEY  DID WITH ENCINA  5,  THAT THEY HAVE
ALREADY  INVESTED TOO MUCH MONEY, THAT  TOO MUCH IS AT STAKE,

TOO MANY  JOBS  WILL BE  LOST IF AT SOME  LATER DATE THEY ARE
DENIED  THE REQUEST THAT THEY MAKE.   THE  SUM OF MONEY  INDICATED

IN RELATION TO ENCINA  5 WAS  $30 MILLION.
             ANOTHER  REASON I SPOKE  TO  THE AGENCY --  IT  SEEMS

RATHER  FRIVOLOUS,  FRANKLY, IN RELATION TO WHAT  1 HAVE  BEEN
JUST  TALKING ABOUT.   I'M A BICYCLE  COMMUTER.   IN  THE  PAST

TEN  YEARS  I HAVE  RIDDEN MY BICYCLE  APPROXIMATELY  50,000

MILES COMMUTING  TO WORK.   I  HAVE  RIDDEN  DAILY  PAST  THE
REFINERY  SITE,  SUMMER, WINTER,  AND  PARTICULARLY  IN  THE FALL

WHEN THE  SANTA ANA CONDITIONS  TEND  TO PREVAIL.   WHEN THE
REFINERY  ISSUE FIRST CAME  UP,  THEY  HAD THEIR LITTLE PICKUP

OUT  THERE  DOING THEIR  METEOROLOGICAL  SURVEY.   I  RODE EACH
MORNING SOMEWHAT AMUSED  AS  THE  ANEMOMETER  RATHER LATHARGICALLY

 TURNED BECAUSE IN THE  MORNING THERE IS PRACTICALLY NO AIR

 CURRENT THERE  AT THE  SITE.
              THERE IS  NO  WAY YOU CAN CONVINCE ME THAT  14  TONS

 A DAY  OF  POLLUTANTS AT THAT POINT WILL NOT RESULT  IN

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                                                                168
   SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION OF THE  ENVIRONMENTAL  CONDITIONS.

2  FOR  THE TOMATOE  FIELDS, THE OTHER AGRICULTURAL  AREAS,  FOR

3  THE  FIELD WORKERS  IN THAT AREA,  THAT HAS TO BE  AN  EXTRA-

4  ORDINARILY  IMPORTANT ISSUE.  THE  AIR AT THAT  POINT IS  NOT

5  IN  CONSTANT MOTION.

6               THAT LEADS ME TO ANOTHER POINT.   AS I  RODE BY

7  THERE EVERY MORNING, I SAID, "GEE, I WONDER WHERE  THEY'RE

8  GOING TO PUT  THAT  DAMN THING.   THEY SAID  IT'S GOING TO BE

9  DOWN IN THE CANYON A LITTLE WAYS."  AND THE  FIRST  PRESENTATION

10  BY  PACIFIC  RESOURCES SHOWED US WHERE IT WAS  GOING  TO BE,

M  AND IT WAS  CLEARLY  IN  SITE OF  EL CAMINO REAL, BUT  THEY

12  CHANGED THEIR MIND AND THEY PUSHED  IT  BACK  DOWN THE CANYON.

13   1  WOULD ASK THE  QUESTION  AS  IT RELATES  TO  AIR POLLUTION

14  WHETHER OR  NOT THAT MEASURE,  WHICH  I FEEL  WAS DONE PRIMARILY

15   FOR PUBLIC  RELATIONS BENEFIT,  IF  YOU PUSH  IT  DOWN THE CANYON

16  AND PUT A  BUSH IN FRONT  OF  IT  YOU CAN  DENY  l'T • EX I  STS .

17               WE HAVE HEARD MUCH OF SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS TODAY.

18   1  HOPE THAT EPA DOES  ITS  OWN  STUDY  OF  THESE .ENORMOUS, COMPLEX
   I
19   ISSUES AND  ARRIVES  AT  THE BEST POSSIBLE  FINDING.   IN  OTHER

20   WORDS, A  FINDING BASED ON THE.SMALLEST PREDICTABLE ERROR

21   POSSIBLE.

22               WE HAVE ALSO HAD  RAISED  THESE  OTHER ISSUES  OF

23   CREDIBILITY.   MR.  SOMMERVILLE RAISED SERIOUS  DOUBTS ABOUT
   I
24  THE COMPREHENSIVENESS  OF THE  AGENCY  STUDY.    IF  THERE  IS  ANY

25  VALIDITY  TO HIS QUESTIONS,  I  WOULD  URGE YOU  TO  TAKE THE

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                                                                169
NECESSARY  STEPS TO COMPLETE  YOUR OWN STUDIES.

             ADDITIONALLY,  I  WOULD ASK YOU  TO  CONSIDER THE

IMPACT A  FEDERAL RULING  HAS  ON THIS CASE WHICH MEANS SO

INTENSELY  -- THAT  IS  SO  TERRIBLY IMPORTANT TO THE CITIZENS

OF THIS  COMMUNITY.  YOUR TENTATIVE APPROVAL,  FRANKLY, READ

LIKE A PRESS RELEASE  FOR SAN DIEGO GAS  6  ELECTRIC, AND WAS

SO INTERPRETED IN  THE LOCAL PAPERS.

             I  HOPE THAT  THIS AGENCY HAS  MUCH  MORE SUBSTANTIAL

DATA BEFORE REACHING  A FINAL DECISION.

            (APPLAUSE)

             MAY  I  SUBMIT THIS BY MAIL?

             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  YOU  CERTAINLY MAY.

             OLIVFR CARLSON, ADAM STREET,  CARLSBAD.

             OLIVER CARLSON?

             GENE  YOUNG,  WEST LINCOLN,  ESCONDIDO.

             ROSE  HASSAN.

             MS.  HASSAN:   MY NAME  is  ROSE HASSAN."  i  LIVE AT
18  5262 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD  IN  CARLSBAD.   I'M  A  HOUSEWIFE, BUT

19  MOSTLY  I'M  A SENIOR CITIZEN.

20               NOW, 1  WOULD JUST LIKE TO  TELL MY SIDE OF THE

21  STORY WITHOUT STATISTICS OR ANYTHING ELSE.   BUT, I LIVE  IN

22  CARLSBAD.   I  HAVE BEEN  HERE FOR FIVE YEARS.   AND IN THAT
   I
23 | LENGTH  OF  TIME THE NUMBER OF HOUSES HAVE  DOUBLED AND  THE

24 (NUMBER  OF  CARS THAT PASS  IN FRONT OF MY  HOUSE HAVE DOUBLED.
25
  I  HAVE 101 IN  FRONT OF ME.   I  HAVE  5 IN BACK OF  ME'.   AND WHEN

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 1 I  i GET  UP IN THE  MORNING AND OPEN  MY  DOOR, 1 CLOSE  IT  VERY


 2   QUICKLY BECAUSE  THE SMOG HAS  SETTLED,  A SMELLY  AIR,  RIGHT


 3   OUTSIDE MY DOOR.   AND THAT'S  WHAT I  THINK OF  AIR POLLUTION.


 4               THANK  YOU.


 5              (APPLAUSE)


 6               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   IRIS SANKEY EARLIER SAID SHE


 7   PROBABLY WOULD  NOT BE HERE,  BUT I PROMISED  TO CALL THE NAME


 8   AGAIN.  IRIS  SANKEY?


 9               MARK NELSON.


10               WILL YOU  STATE  YOUR ADDRESS  AND YOUR AFFILIATION.


11               MR.  NELSON:  MY  NAME  IS MARK  NELSON.  I  LIVE


12   AT  3331 MARGARET WAY  IN  CARLSBAD.   1 AM  PRESIDENT OF CARLSBAD


13   COMMUNITY  CAUSE.


14                1  WANTED  TO  READ INTO THE  RECORD  A OUOTATION


15   FROM A  SUMMARY  BY THE  CALIFORNIA  COASTAL ZONE CONSERVATION


16   COMMISSION RELATIVE  TO AIR POLLUTION  IN  THE CARLSBAD AREA


17   AND SAN DIEGO COUNTY.  THIS  IS ON PAGE  2 OF THEIR APPEAL


18   SUMMARY OF THE ENC1NA 5  DENIAL.   IT SAYS:


19                "THE  SAN  DIEGO AIR BASIN  HAS BEEN DESIGNATED


20   AS A  CRITICAL AIR AREA.   IT  HAS  THE POTENTIAL  FOR MORE  SEVERE


21   AIR POLLUTION PROBLEMS  THAN  THE  SOUTH  COAST AIR  BASIN  BECAUSE


22  | OF METEOROLOGICAL  CONDITIONS.  THE  PRODUCTIVE NORTH  COUNTY
   i
23  | AGRICULTURAL  AREAS  AROUND CARLSBAD  ARE PARTICULARLY  SUSCEPTIBL
   !

24 ! TO  INCREASES  IN AIR POLLUTION."
25
I  WILL MAKE  A COPY OF THIS  AND FORWARD  IT.

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                                                                171
 1                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   FOR OUR PRESENT  PURPOSES,
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TAKE  IT  YOU DON'T WANT  TO  LEAVE IT NOW?


             MR.  NELSON:   IT'S  THE ONLY ONE  i  GOT.   i  FIGURE


I  WILL PROBABLY  BE USING  IT  AGAIN.


             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   LET'S SEE  IF  WE  CAN  GET IT


FULLY  IDENTIFIED FOR THE  RECORD.   THIS IS ON  THE  LETTERHEAD


OF CALIFORNIA COASTAL  ZONE CONSERVATION  COMMISSION,  15^0 MARKET


STREET,  SAN FRANCISCO.   THE  DOCUMENT  IS  ENTITLED  "APPEAL


SUMMARY."  .IT IS APPEAL NO.  78-75SDGSE,  ENCINA 5,  AND THE


QUOTATION  WAS FROM PAGE 2  UNDER "STAFF NOTES," PARAGRAPH 2,


THE SECOND PARAGRAPH.


             AND  YOU WILL  FURNISH  US WITH A  COPY?


             MR.  NELSON:   I  ALSO HAVE  ANOTHER  STATEMENT.   THIS


IS.FROM  THE COMPREHENSIVE  PLANNING ORGANIZATION OF SAN DIEGO  !

                                                                 I
COUNTY REGION,  PHASE ONE,  POPULATION  GROWTH,  POLICY  STUDY,


FINAL  REPORT, PAGE 37.
             "THE LEVEL OF  AIR  POLLUTION  IN  THE  SAN DIEGO


REGION  TODAY  GREATLY EXCEEDS  THE FEDERAL AIR  QUALITY


STANDARDS  SET UNDER THE  CLEAN  AIR ACT TO PROTECT  THE PUBLIC'S


HEALTH.   IN  1973, THE STANDARD FOR PHOTOCHEMICAL  OXIDANT,


THE MAJOR  POLLUTANT IN THE REGION, WAS EXCEEDED ON 20^ DAVS
                                                                 I
22  OUT OF  365.   THESE LEVELS  OF  AIR POLLUTION HAVE  RESULTED IN
   I

23 I DAMAGE  TO  VEGETATION  IN  MUCH  OF THE REGION,  DAMAGE  TO
   i

24 j AGRICULTURAL  CROPS SUCH  AS TOMATOES, LETTUCE,  GRAPES, ALFAFA

   I
25  AND ORCHIDS,  AS WELL AS  TO PONDEROSA AND JEFFREY  PINES IN

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                                                                172
   CUYAMACA AND PALOMAR STATE PARK  HAS  BEEN OBSERVED.


                "THE  SAN DIEGO REGION IS ALSO VERY  SUSCEPTIBLE


   TO  AIR POLLUTION  EPISODES, A  SITUATION IN WHICH  WEATHER
 4   CONDITIONS CAUSE  POLLUTANTS  TO  BE TRAPPED CLOSE  TO  THE
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GROUND AND  BUILD VERY  HIGH AND DANGEROUS  CONCENTRATIONS."


             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   I  TAKE  IT  THAT YOU WANT TO


RETAIN THAT COPY TOO,  AND SUBMIT --


             MR. NELSON:   ONCE AGAIN,  IT'S THE ONLY ONE  i


HAVE.   1  WOULD LIKE  TO INTRODUCE BOTH  THAT AND THE MAP  THAT


SHOWS SAN DIEGO HAS  THE  LARGEST NUMBER OF EPISODES.


             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   WE WILL  NOTE FOR THAT  RECORD


THEY WILL BE ASSIGNED  EXHIBIT NUMBERS  WHEN THEY'RE RECEIVED.


             WAIT A MINUTE.  LET'S  MAKE SURE WE HAVE  ALL


THIS PROPERLY DESCRIBED  FOR THE COURT  REPORTER.  THIS  IS


"PHASE  1, POPULATION GROWTH POLICY STUDY FINAL REPORT,"


AND  THE  QUOTATION WAS  FROM PAGE 37.   YOU WERE QUOTING  THE


FIRST,  SECOND, AND THIRD PARAGRAPHS  THAT BEGIN ON  PAGE  37.


             MR. NELSON:   AND ALSO  A  LETTER  FROM  THE  SAN


DIEGO  COUNTY APCD  IN WHICH IT INCLUDES THE-  FOLLOW 1NG


STATEMENT.   1 WAS WONDERING FOR THE  RECORD  TO REQUEST  OR


FIND OUT IF YOU HAD  THIS  INFORMATION AVAILABLE WHEN  YOU
22 1 MADE YOUR  STUDY OR  YOU THOUGHT  IT MIGHT  BE  USEFUL.   IT
   i

23 ! CONCERNS  A REQUEST  THAT WE MADE, COMMUNITY  CAUSE MADE,  TO


24 | HAVE THE  MOBILE UNIT  LOCATED IN CARLSBAD.   MOT A MOBILE  UNIT,


25  BUT TO  HAVE A SOURCE  TEST OF THE ENCINA  5  -- I'M SORRY,

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                                                               173
ENCINA'S  1  THROUGH 4 AT THE POWER  PLANT.   AND NUMBER 3 ON




THIS LETTER  SAID:




             "THE APCD SOURCE TEST  TEAM  WILL CONDUCT A




BOI LER-BY-B.Ol LER INSPECTION OF  FACILITY IN NORMAL OPERATION-.,




ON APRIL  9TH,  1975, WITH AN EXPECTED  SIX-WEEK COMPLETION




DATE FOR  A  FINAL REPORT.  THIS  EVALUATION WILL INCLUDE




TESTING  FOR TOTAL PART ICULATES,  SULPHUR DIOXIDE,  AND NITROGEN




OXIDE  EMISSIONS."



             THE REASON  THAT  I  ASKED IF  YOU HAD THE  USE OF




THAT  IS  THAT THEY TELL  US THEY  WILL SEND US A COPY  OF THE




STUDY  WHEN  IT'S COMPLETED.   WE  HAVE YET TO GET OURS,  AND  I




DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU HAD  THAT  AVAILABLE.   WE THOUGHT  IT MIGHT




BE  USEFUL -- WHEN WE  CALLED  THE APCD TO  INQUIRE  ABOUT JUST




AIR  POLLUTION FROM ENCINA, WE  WERE ONLY GIVEN FIGURES FOR




UNITS  1,  2, AND 3.   AND ASKED  WHY THEY DIDN'T HAVE  ONE  FOR




UNIT  4,  THEY SAID  THE LAST  TEST THEY HAD  DONE WAS  1972.




             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   ANYONE HERE  ANSWER THAT




QUEST!ON?



             MR. SWICKER:   I  HAVE NOT SEEN  THAT STUDY.




             MR. NELSON:  PERHAPS  IT MIGHT  BE  USEFUL.   IT




MIGHT BE WORTHWHILE  CHECKING IT OUT.




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK YOU.




             MR. NELSON:  OKAY.  ALSO,  A  NEWSPAPER CLIPPING




 FROM  THE SAN  DIEGO UNION.   I' WOULD JUST  LIKE TO  -- I  WILL




 SEND  YOU THIS  LATER, BUT IT COMMENTS THAT VEGETABLE DAMAGE

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 1   AND CROP DAMAGE HAS OCCURRED FROM AIR  POLLUTION IN SAN  DIEGO
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COUNTY,  AND THEN  1 HAVE THE FOLLOWING PREPARED STATEMENT.


             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  YOU'RE  GOING TO SEND  US  COPIES


OF THOSE EXHIBITS?


             MR. NELSON:  THAT'S  CORRECT.


             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  YOU UNDERSTAND ALTHOUGH  IT'S


NICE TO  HAVE THEM HERE IN THE RECORD, WE WOULD  LIKE TO HAVE


AT LEAST THE EXHIBITS OR COPIES  FOR OUR FILES.


             MR. NELSON:  WE WOULD BE  INTERESTED  IN  FINDING


OUT  FOR  SURE IF THEY  DID HAVE THE USE OF THAT SOURCE TEST


OF ENCINA I, 2, J>, AND 4.


             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  MY POINT  IS,  I WOULD  LIKE TO


MAKE CLEAR IT'S TO YOUR  INTEREST TO SEE THAT WE  GET COPIES  OF


THOSE  EXHIBITS.


             MR. NELSON:  RIGHT.


             GENTLEMEN, ON BEHALF OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY


CAUSE,  I WOULD  LIKE  TO THANK  YOU FOR  YOUR EFFORTS ABOVE


AND  BEYOND IN HAVING  THIS HEARING IN  CARLSBAD.   THE OPPOR-
  UNITY  TO ADDRESS  A GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY WITHOUT  HAVING TO
20  DRIVE A  MINIMUM OF  50  MILES IS WELCOME BY ALL OF  US.


21               ONE MINOR  INFORMATIONAL ITEM THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN


22  VALUABLE  IN THE PROGRESS OF THE  HEARING TODAY AND AIDED MANY


23 I OF OUR OUT-OF-TOWN  GUESTS FROM THE  COUNTY LABOR ORGANIZATIONS

   I
24 i WOULD HAVE  BEEN TO  STATE THAT THE  '£'  IN EPA DOES NOT STAND
25
 FOR  ECONOMIC  PROTECTION AGENCY.   (LAUGHTER)

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                                                                   75
 1               WHILE  IT IS TRUE THAT  A PERSON CAN'T  LIVE IF HE

 2  CAN'T  EAT,  HIS  LIFE  EXPECTANCY  IS  EVEN SHORTER  ]F HE CAN'T

 3  BREATHE.   WE DO NOT  TAKE COMFORT  IN THE FACT  THAT MEN IN

 4  CARLSBAD  -- 1  MEAN  CHULA VISTA,  EL CAJON, LA  MFSA,  VISTA, AND

 5  ,SAN  DIEGO SEE NO PROBLEM WITH THE  PROPOSED REFINERY.  HOWEVER,

 6  LARGE  NUMBERS OF NORTH COUNTY RESIDENTS, AS YOU HAVE HEARD,

 1  DO OBJECT TO THE ERA'S PROPOSED  APPROVAL OF THIS  PROJECT.

 8               AS  OTHERS HAVE STATED  TODAY, WE BELIEVE THE

 9 , PROJECT  SHOULD  BE AND MUST BE DENIED.   AT THE VERY LEAST,

10  THE  PROJECT SHOULD  BE DELAYED PENDING  ADDITIONAL  STUDIES AND

11  INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN REQUESTED BY NUMEROUS INDIVIDUALS

12  TODAY.  HOWEVER, !F  AT THE END  OF  YOUR ANALYSIS YOU STILL

13  BELIEVE THE PROJECT  MUST BE APPROVED,  SPECIAL CONSIDERATION

14  SHOULD BE GIVEN TO  ANY PERMIT.   TO DATE THE QUESTION HAS BEEN:

15  WILL THE  PRODUCTS OF THE MACAR10  REFINERY BE  USED ONLY IN

16  SAN  DIEGO COUNTY.   IT WAS ON THIS  BASIS' THAT  THE  CONDITIONAL

17  EPA  APPROVAL WAS GIVEN.  NEfTHER  THE FEDERAL  ENERGY ADMIN1S-

18  TRAT10N,  THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC  UTILITIES COMMISSION, THE
   I
19  ENERGY COMMISSION,  OR ANY OTHER  AGENCY HAS YET  IRREVOCABLY

20  COMMITTED MACARIO'S  PRODUCTS TO  SAN DIEGO COUNTY.  YET, AT

21   THIS POINT, THIS CONDITION AND  ONLY THIS CONDITION REALLY

22  WILL ALLOW THE  REFINERY'S APPROVAL.  -FOR THIS REASON, THE

23  PERMIT SHOULD BE DENIED WITH THE  CONDITION THAT IF ALL OTHER

24  STANDARDS ARE MET,  IF MACARI 0 AND  SDG&E CAN PROVE BEYOND

25 : A SHADOW  OF A DOUBT  THE FUELS WILL BE  USED'IN SAN DIEGO

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                                                                 176
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COUNTY,  THEN AND ONLY  THEN, WILL  APPROVAL BE GIVEN.   THIS PUT'


THE BURDEN OF PROOF  WHERE  IT BELONGS,  ON THE APPLICANT.   IT


IS THEIR PROJECT,  AND  THEY SHOULD HAVE TO DOCUMENT  THEIR


CLAIMS,  OR THE PERMIT  SHOULD BE DENIED.


             BECAUSE  OF THE IMPACT THAT THE EPA DECISION


WILL HAVE ON FUTURE  DECISIONS OF  THIS  PROJECT BY  OTHER


BODIES,  UTMOST CARE  MUST BE TAKEN TO MAKE SURE OTHERS WILL


NOT MISINTERPRET THE MAGNITUDE OR THE  UNCERTAINTY OF THIS


CONDITION.   SINCE  MACARIO HAS DECIDED  TO BEGIN COLLECTING


APPROVALS BEFORE EVEN  APPLYING FOR A PERMIT  IN THE  CITY  OF


CARLSBAD, CONSIDERABLE PRESSURE WILL BUILD AND MOUNT WITH


EACH SUCCEEDING AGENCY OR BODY FACING  THE QUESTION:   "THE


OTHERS  APPROVED  IT,  WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?"  YET NO ONE


WILL SEE THE COMPLETE  PROJECT PLANS OR THE ENVIRONMENTAL


IMPACT  REPORT, A DOCUMENT THAT HAS BEEN DELAYED  SINCE MARCH


OF 1974.   FOR THIS REASON, IF THE EPA  DECIDES CONTRARY TtT


ARGUMENT FOR DENIAL  PRESENTED TODAY TO ISSUE THE  APPROVAL


OF THE  PERMIT, PLEASE  USE  LANGUAGE IN  THE CONDITIONS THAT
19  WILL  HAVE TO BE  USED THAT UNDERSCORES THE PROBLEMS THAT WILL


20  BE  FACED IN MEETING THE CONDITION,  THE CONDITION  OF USING


21  THAT  FUEL ONLY  IN  SAN DIEGO  COUNTY,  THE FACT  THAT NOBODY
   t

22 j CAN GUARANTEE THAT RIGHT NOW.
   1

23 I              THE  STATEMENT "EPA  GIVES CONDITIONAL  APPROVAL
24

25
TO REFINERY" GIVES  THE IMPRESSION  THE PROBLEMS  AR'E  SATISFIED.


THE  STATEMENT "MACARIO ASKED  TO  PROVE CLAIMS  BEFORE PERMISSIO

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                                                                 177
    GRANTED  FOR REFINERY"  SHOWS SOMETHING  MUCH MORE ACCURATE.




                 THANK  YOU.




                (APPLAUSE)





                 CHAIRMAN WALKER:  MR.  LOU  JONES,  CENTER STREET,




    OCEANS!DE.





                 LOU JONES?





                 DON BOUTVETTE,  CARLSBAD.




                 PLEASE TELL  ME  HOW CLOSE  I  CAME TO IT.




                 MR. BOUTVETTE:   YOU CAME  FAIRLY CLOSE.  CLOSER




    THAN MOST..





                 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,  MY NAME  IS  DON BOUTVETTE.




    I  LIVE AT 2381 JEFFERSON STREET, CARLSBAD.   I'M NOT A MEMBER




    OF COMMUNITY  CAUSE.  I CAME TO THIS MEETING THIS MORNING




    ONLY AS AN  OBSERVER AND  A CONCERNED CITIZEN,  BUT MY ATTENTION




    WAS DRAWN TO  A LARGE DELEGATION OF TRADE  UNIONS PRESENT




    AND THEIR SPEAKERS, MOST OF WHOM IT APPEARED  WERE NOT




    RESIDENTS OF  THIS  IMMEDIATE AREA.




                 THEY ALL EXPRESSED WORRY ABOUT JOBS AND MORE JOBS




    THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE,  BUT I  GOT  THE  DISTINCT GUT FEELING




    THAT THEIR  JOB WAS THE ONLY PROBLEM ABOUT  WHICH THEY WERE




    WORRIED.   SO,  THEY DROVE UP TO CARLSBAD THIS  MORNING TO




    LET YOU KNOW  HOW MUCH THE MACARI 0  REFINERY  WOULD MEAN TO




23  THEM FINANCIALLY.   SO, 1  FELT  I  SHOULD COMMENT ON THIS.




24  HENCE,  THESE  NOTES.  THEY WORK UP HERE ON  A JOB WHICH COULD




    RESULT  IN POLLUTION IN THE  AIR WHILE WITH  THEIR FAMILIES

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 THEY  LIVE 30  OR  40 MILES AWAY,  WHERE THE AIR  IS  NOT SO

 POLLUTED BY THE  PRODUCT OF  THEIR LABORS.  NOT  YET,  ANYWAY.

 IT  HAPPENS THAT  I  TOO AM A  UNION MAN.   I AM A  PAST  MEMBER OF

 THE NEWSPAPER  GUILD OF AMERICA  AND THE  BOILERMAKERS.   YES,

 THE BOILERMAKERS.   I  AM AN  ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE  PUBLICISTS

 GUILD  OF AMERICA,  LOCAL 8818,  IATSC-CI0-AFL.   I  AM  A PAST

 PRESIDENT OF  THE  PUBLICISTS  GUILD.    I GIVE THIS  LITANY ONLY

 TO  ESTABLISH  MYSELF AS A QUALIFIED MEMBER OF THE LABOR

 MOVEMENT.  FOR 35  YEARS I HAVE  BEEN A WORKING  STIFF,  HAVE

 HIT THE  BRICKS AND WALKED PICKET LINES, AND 1  WAS NOT ELECTED

 PRESIDENT OF  THE  PUBLICISTS  THREE TIMES BECAUSE  I WAS NOT

 A MI LITANT LABOR  MAN.

             IF ANY OF THESE  CONSTRUCTION UNIONISTS  ARE

 WORRIED  ABOUT  THE  CONDITION  OF  THEIR INDUSTRY,  I  SUGGEST THEY

 TAKE A  LOOK  AT THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY.  I HAVE.   I  HAVE

 NOT HAD  A JOB  IN  IT IN OVER  A YEAR.   I BROUGHT MY WIFE TO

 CARLSBAD FOUR  YEARS AGO ON ORDERS FROM HER DOCTOR,  WHO SAID

 SHE MUST LEAVE THE LOS ANGELES  AREA BECAUSE SMOG WAS

 DESTROYING HER HEALTH.   THIS, HOWEVER,   IS NOT  THE REASON
20  FOR MY  OPPOSITION  TO THE MACAR10  REFINERY.   FORTUNATELY, WE

21  DO NOT  HAVE TO LIVE  WHERE [  WORK.   WHEN REFINERIES,  HEAVY

22 | INDUSTRY,  HIGH-DENSITY POPULATION,  AND THE RESULTANT AIR
   !
23 | POLLUTION  COMBINE, YOU CHANGE SAN  DIEGO COUNTY  INTO  AN
24

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EXTENSION  OF ORANGE  COUNTY, I  WILL  TAKE MY WIFE TO  A  YET

UNDEFILED  AREA OF THIS  BEAUTIFUL  COUNTRY.

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                                                                179
                 BUT WHAT WILL  THESE  CONSTRUCTION  WORKERS DO WITH




    THEIR FAMILIES?  ARE THEY  THINKING THIS FAR AHEAD?   ONE OF




    THEM, SPEAKING EARLY THIS  MORNING, SAID SOMETHING  LIKE THIS,




    QUOTE, WHAT'S  THE USE OF HAVING  CLEAN AIR  IN  OUR  LUNGS IF




    WE  HAVE NO  FOOD IN OUR STOMACHS.   WE HAD STRONG  APPLAUSE TO




    THIS FROM THE  OTHER SIDE OF  THE  HALL.  1 CAN  ANSWER THAT




    QUESTION ONLY  WITH ANOTHER QUESTION:  WHAT  IS THE USE OF




    HAVING FOOD  IN OUR STOMACHS  IF WE ARE ALL  DEAD FROM EMPHYSEMA.




                (APPLAUSE)




                 CHAIRMAN WALKER:   MR. LLOYD VON HADEN,  FOOTHILL,




    VISTA, CALIFORNIA.




                 MR. VON HADEN:   MY NAME  IS LLOYD  VON HADEN.  I




    LIVE AT 2089  FOOTHILL IN VISTA.   THAT'S TEN MILES INLAND




    FROM HERE.   AND VERY LIKELY  WHERE MOST OF - THE . POLLUT1 ON




    WILL END UP.   NOT IN CARLSBAD.




                 IT'S BEEN SAID THAT ABOUT 98  PERCENT OF  THIS




    OPERATION WILL BE POLLUTION-FREE.   IN OTHER WORDS,  ABOUT




    TWO PERCENT  OF THEIR OPERATION WILL  BE BLOWN  OVER TO VISTA.




    !  THINK THAT'S EVEN TOO  MUCH.




                 ALSO, ALL THESE  REFINERIES OPERATE A.GOOD




    DEAL OF THE  TIME ON VARIANCES, WHICH MEANS  THAT  THEY MIGHT




    BE  OPERATING 75 PERCENT  OR 30  PERCENT.   I  THINK  IT'S




23 i MISLEADING  TO  THINK ONLY OF  THE TERMS --  THINKING OF IT




    WHEN  IT'S OPERATING AT  ITS BEST.   1  DON'T  BELIEVE THE DATA




    THEY ARE PUTTING OUT ABOUT AIR POLLUTION.

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                                                                180
 1 |              JUST  IN THE LAST COUPLE  DAYS,  A FEW DAYS  AGO
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LAST WEEK,  1  THINK  IT  WAS,  THERE WAS A  FIRE  IN RIVERSIDE,




AND THE  SMOKE FROM  THAT FIRE FIRST CIRCULATED AROUND.   I




NOTICED  IT IN FALLBROOK, WHICH  IS  ANOTHER LITTLE TOWN  ABOUT \L




M1LES  NORTH OF VISTA,  AND THE NEXT DAY  I  NOTICED IT  IN  VISTA.




AND THIS FIRE IS  A  LONG WAYS AWAY.  'AIR IN THIS REGION  DOES




NOT JUST STAY RIGHT HERE OR BLOW A  FEW  MILES AND THEN




DISAPPEAR.   IT TRAVELS AROUND.   I  SEE  MANY STORIES  RECENTLY




THAT  SAY THAT WE'RE GETTING SMOG  FROM  LOS ANGELES  DOWN HERE.




I  THINK  IT'S WRONG  TO -- I  HAVE NO FAITH  IN  THESE  STUDIES




THAT  SHOW THAT THIS PROPOSED  OPERATION WILL  NOT  CONTAMINATE





OUR   AREA.




              ANOTHER POINT  I WOULD LIKE TO BRING  OUT IS THAT




THIS  REFINERY WILL NEED  A  GREAT DEAL OF  FRESH  WATER.  THEY




SAY  ABOUT  2,000,000 GALLONS A DAY.  RECENTLY THERE HAVE BEEN




PROPOSALS  MADE  TO  BUILD  A  TRI-CITY PIPELINE  THAT WILL




 FURNISH THIS WATER.   THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT WATER AT THIS




 TIME TO ACCOMMODATE THE  REFINERY.  THE  THREE CITIES,




 OCEANS!DE,  CARLSBAD,  AND VISTA, WERE SUPPOSED TO GET




 TOGETHER  AND PASS  THE BONDS TO BUILD THIS PIPELINE.   THIS




 WAS PUT  BEFORE THE VOTERS OF VISTA  IN  MAY,  AND IT  WAS




 DEFEATED.   THIS  BOND  ISSUE WAS PART OF A LARGER BOND  ISSUE
 23 !  FOR NEEDED  IMPROVEMENTS,  AND THE BALANCE OF  THIS ISSUE IS




 24   GOING TO BE  PUT ON THE  BALLOT IN NOVEMBER  IN VISTA.  BUT




 25   THEY'RE GOING TO OMIT THE TRI-AGENCY PIPELINE.   THEY HOPE

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TO  GET THE TRI-AGENCY PIPELINE  BY OTHER MEANS,  BUT THERE  IS



NO  ASSURANCE  IT'S  GOING TO  BE  MADE, AND I WOULD LIKE TO



POINT  OUT THAT  THIS REFINERY  SHOULD NOT BE  --  THE OFFICIALS



SHOULD NOT ASSUME  THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING  TO  GO SMOOTHLY



FOR  THEM, THAT  THEY CAN PRODUCE THIS -- THE  FRESH WATER THAT


THEY NEED.



             ALL  REFINERIES  ARE  DANGEROUS, AND  T  SUPPOSE OTHER



PEOPLE HAVE MENTIONED THAT  RECENT FIRE IN PHILADELPHIA AT



THE  REFINERY THERE,  WHICH,  AS  FAR AS 1 KNOW,  IS  STILL



BURNING.   THEY  CAN'T PUT THE  NAPTHA FIRE OUT.   IT WOULD BE



JUST AS  DANGEROUS  HERE.   WHAT'S MORE,  IT'S  NEXT  TO AN



AIRPORT,  WHICH  I FEEL IS ABOUT  THE WORST POSSIBLE LOCATION



FOR ANY  REFINERY.   THERE IS GREAT DEANGER THAT  THERE WOULD



BE SOME  AIRCRAFT TRAGEDIES  FALLEN TO THIS REFINERY.



             ANOTHER  POINT IS THAT I. BELIEVE  THAT A REFINERY



CANNOT  EXIST BY  ITSELF.   ITS VERY EXISTENCE  WILL ATTRACT



OTHER  CLOSELY RELATED AND UNDERS1RABLE INDUSTRIES.   CONDITIONS



CHANGE  AND OFFICIALS CHANGE.  TEN YEARS  FROM NOW THEY MIGHT



SAY, "OH,  GEE, WE  JUST HAVE TO  HAVE ANOTHER  INDUSTRY THAT
20  WILL BE  CLOSELY RELATED THERE."   OR  WE GET SOME  OTHER  OFFICIAL^



21  IN THERE  THAT ARE NOT  AS CONCERNED WITH POLLUTION  AS  SOME
   i

22  OF THE OFFICIALS MIGHT NOW BE.   IN OTHER WORDS,  I  DON'T WANT
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             AND IN ANOTHER DIRECTION,  I  THINK IT WOULD  BE

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                                                                182
   MUCH  BETTER IF WE  WOULD PUT OUR  EFFORTS  IN•CONSERVATI ON.




2  WE  SHOULD USE LESS REFINERY PRODUCTS  RATHER THAN MORE  OF




3  THEM.   WE SHOULD  MAKE MORE OF  AN EFFORT  TO PRODUCE  AND USE




   ALTERNATE NON-POLLUT[NG SOURCES  OF ENERGY.  AND  I  ESPECIALLY




5  FAVOR SOLAR ENERGY.   I BELIEVE WE'RE  AT THE END  OF  AN ERA




6  WHEN  WE CAN GET  BOTH CHEAP ENERGY AND MATERIALS,  AND I THINK




7  THAT  WE MUST  ALL  ADJUST TO CHANGING CONDITIONS.




8               THEREFORE,  I  STRONGLY URGE THE EPA NOT TO OPPOSE  -




9  OR NOT APPROVE  THIS REFINERY.




10               (APPLAUSE)  .




n                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU,  MR.  VON HADEN.




12                THE NEXT  CARD IS  THELMA VON HADEN OF THE  SAME





13   ADDRESS.



]4                MRS_  VON  HADEN:   MY  NAME  IS  THELMA VON  HADEN.




15   I'M A  HOUSEWIFE,  AND I  RESIDE AT  2089  FOOTHILL DRIVE  IN VISTA.




16                YOU  CAN'T HAVE ANY  IDEA  HOW  DELIGHTED  I  WAS WHEN I




17   DISCOVERED  THAT  THIS AREA.WILL NO  LONGER HAVE TO  RELY  ON




18   AN INFERIOR GRADE OF IMPORTED  SMOG.   NOW WE'RE GOING TO




19   START  PRODUCING  OUR OWN.   (APPLAUSE)




20                 UNFORTUNATELY, THIS REFINERY IS  SUPPOSED TO BE




21    ISSUED A CERTIFICATE OF  CONVENIENCE  AND NECESSITY,  BUT I




22   HAVE SEEN NO DEMONSTRATION THAT THE  NAT I ON'S -EX ISTING




23    REFINERIES ARE  BEING OPERATED AT CAPACITY; I. HAVE  SEEN NO




24   DEMONSTRATION  THAT EXISTING  REFINERY SITES HAVE  BEEN COVERED
25
TO THEIR  FULL CAPACITY.   I  ALSO HAVE A  QUESTION WHICH

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                                                                 183
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TO BE  PAID FOR.   IF  IT IS A FULLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF  SAN




DIEGO  GAS  £ ELECTRIC,  CAN ITS CAPITAL  COSTS BE ADDED  TO  THE




COMPANY'S  RATE BASE  AND PAID FOR BY  THE RATE PAYERS?




             NOW,  I KNOW THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION




AGENCY IS  FREQUENTLY GIVEN ARGUMENTS THAT WE MUST  BALANCE




ANY CLEAN  ENVIRONMENT AGAINST THE  DEMANDS OF A FUNCTIONING




ECONOMY,  THAT WE  MUST BE CAREFUL THAT  WE ARE NOT WIPING  OUT




JOBS.   HOWEVER, THE  ENTIRE ENERGY  INDUSTRY  IS EXTREMELY




CAPITAL INSENSITIVE.  IT IS A RATHER SMALL  EMPLOYER  OF




LABOR,  AND IT  IS  FOR THIS REASON THAT  PUERTO RICO'S  OPERATION




BOOTSTRAP  IS  FALLING ON  ITS FACE.   WHAT WE  ARE BEING OFFERED




HERE,  EVEN WHILE  BOOTSTRAP IS FAILING,  IS A LOCAL  ADDITION




OF OPERATION  BOOTSTRAP.




             FURTHERMORE, REFINERIES ARE NOT ALL  A  PLUS




MATTER.  THEY  ARE LARGE  ENERGY  USERS,  AND  I HAVE  A VERY




STRONG SUSPICION  THAT ONE REASON  WHY THE REFINERY  AND ITS
18 j RELATED  USERS ARE  BEING BROUGHT  IN  IS THAT THIS  POWER
19




20




21
COMPANY URGENTLY  NEEDS NEW  CUSTOMERS FOR  ITS  NEW FACILITIES,




AND  THAT THE WHOLE PURPOSE  OF THIS VAST ENERGY  COMPLEX WILL




BE  TO COMMIT  INCEST WITH  THE  POWER PLANTS.   (LAUGHTER)
22 !              FURTHERMORE, THE  INCREASES IN POPULATION AND




23  BUSINESS,  WHICH  THIS COMPLEX  WILL  BRING IN, SUCH  COMPLEXES




24 i HAVE  HISTORICALLY  BEEN SHOWN  TO  COST US MORE  TO  PROVIDE WITH




25  SERVICES THAN THEY WILL BRING IN IN TAXES.  WITHOUT CLEAN

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 1  ENVIRONMENT AND  WITHOUT CONSERVATION  WHICH WILL HELP  US




 2  POSTPONE RESOURCE  EXHAUSTION, WE  CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY




 3  ECONOMY EITHER.



 4                I  UNDERSTAND THAT THIS MORNING IN OUR  NEIGHBORING




 5  CITY OF LOS  ANGELES THERE WAS A HEALTH ADVISORY.   I  WOULD




 6  LIKE TO ASK  THE  QUESTION OF  WHAT ONE DOES FOR ONE'S  HEALTH




 7  DURING A HEALTH  ADVISORY.




 8                FURTHERMORE,  I WISH THAT ADVOCATES  OF  NEW FORMS




 9   OF LOW-POLLUTING INDUSTRY  WOULD PLEASE STOP  ACTING AS IF




10   EVERY  TIME  YOU BUILD  A LOW-POLLUTION FACILITY  ITS  POLLUTION




11   WILL BE SUBTRACTED  FROM WHAT YOU  ALREADY  HAVE  RATHER THAN





12   ADDED  TO  IT.




13                THANK  YOU.




14               (APPLAUSE)




15                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THE NEXT CARD IS JOHN  P.




16   MC  GILL,  HIGHLAND  DRIVE, CARLSBAD.




17                MR. MC GILL:  I'M  JOHN MC  GILL OF 43^0  HIGHLAND





18   DRIVE  IN  CARLSBAD.



,9                 I WOULD FIRST LIKE TO SPEAK FOR MYSELF  AND  THEN




20   AS  A MEMBER OF  COMMUNITY CAUSE.   I WOULD LIKE TO  BRING  TO




21   YOUR ATTENTION,  GENTLEMEN,  TWO SPEAKERS AND THE FACT THAT




22  | BOTH OF THEM  BROUGHT  UP TO  YOU THIS EVENING AND THIS AFTERNOO




23    SOMETHING  THAT  IS SOMEWHAT  AKIN TO A SAYING A  FEW YEARS BACK




24   ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE,  PERHAPS:   THE WAY TO A  MAN'S HEART




25   is THROUGH HIS  STOMACH.   WE HAVE SEEN HERE, BY  YOUR ACTION

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                                                                .135
   OF  THE PAST  FEW  MONTHS,'THAT  THE  WAY TO ACHIEVE  CONSTRUCTION




2  OF  THIS REFINERY IS THE  INDIRECT  APPROACH.  FOR  WHAT  IN




3  ESSENCE YOU  WILL DO WILL HAVE PERHAPS A TOTALLY  ADVERSE




   EFFECT UPON  ALL  OTHER  GOVERNING BODIES.   IT DOES NOT  ESCAPE




5  US  HERE IN CARLSBAD THAT THE  PRIME PURPOSE OF  BRINGING YOU




6   IN  AT THIS TIME  WAS TO ACHIEVE THIS.  THE  PEOPLE WHO  OPERATE




   SAN DIEGO GAS  &  ELECTRIC,  MACARIO REFINERY ARE NOT UNINTELLI-




8  GENT OR IMBECILES, AS  THE  CASE MIGHT BE.   THEY ARE VERY




9   INTELLIGENT  PEOPLE.  AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE  HERE TODAY ARE




10   INTELLIGENT, TOO, AND  THEY CAN SEE  THIS  PURPOSE.  SO,  FOR




11   THE RECORD,  PLEASE REMEMBER THIS, THAT WE ARE AWARE OF THE




12   FACT AND  THE PURPOSE WHY SAN DIEGO  GAS  &  ELECTRIC STROVE




13   VERY  EARNESTLY  TO  HAVE YOU MAKE  A PRONOUNCEMENT WITH  REGARD




14   TO PERHAPS  THE  FUTURE  CONSTRUCTION  OF  THIS REFINERY.




15                AS  A  MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE,  I WOULD  LIKE  TO




16   RESPOND  TO MR.  PRESCOTT.  MR.  PRESCOTT LEFT A FEW MINUTES




17   AGQ_   HE  CAME FN/  MADE A STATEMENT,  AND LEFT.   HE MADE A





18   STATEMENT WHICH I  RESENT BECAUSE I  THINK IT IS  NOT TRUE.   HE




19   SAID  THAT PEOPLE  WHO  SPOKE FOR COMMUNITY CAUSE  SPOKE  WITH




20  EMOTIONALISM.   YET WHEN MR.  PRESCOTT SPOKE,  I  DON'T  RECALL




21   HIM  PRESENTING  YOU WITH FACTS, DETAILS.   MERELY GENERALITIES




22  YET  THE SPEAKERS  FROM COMMUNITY  CAUSE AS WELL AS  THOSE WHO




23 ! SPOKE ON THEIR  OWN BEHALF  IN THIS COMMUNITY AND OTHER




24 ! COMMUNITIES SPOKE VERY  ELOQUENTLY,  PRESENTED  DETAILED FACTS




25  WHICH CAN BE  SUBTANTIATED,  AND  I THINK YOU  SHOULD REMEMBER

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                                                                  186
  I' THAT  AS YOU  PROCEED FURTHER ON IN THIS  MATTER.
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             THANK  YOU.




            (APPLAUSE)




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK YOU, MR.  MC GILL.




             I  WOULD LIKE TO  ASSURE ALL OF  YOU ONE OF THE




REASONS  FOR HAVING A STENOGRAPHIC REPORTER  TAKE THESE




HEARINGS  DOWN IS  SO EVERYONE'S ELOQUENCE OR LACK THEREOF




CAN BE  PRESERVED  AND CAN BE  REVIEWED AT  LEISURE.




             I  GUESS WE HAVE  ONE MORE FAMILY ACT.  MEGAN




JACKSON  OF CHINQUAPIN, CARLSBAD.




             MS. JACKSON:  YOU  GOT THE FAMILY RIGHT.  I'M




AFRAID  YOU MISPRONOUNCED THE FIRST NAME.




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:'  THAT'S PRETTY CLOSE FOR ME.




             MS. JACKSON:  OKAY, I'LL GRANT  YOU THAT.




             JUST  RECENTLY 1  GRADUATED FROM  CARLSBAD HIGH




SCHOOL,  AND NOW I'M GOING AWAY, BUT NOT  ALL MY FRIENDS ARE,




AND THEY  DON'T LIKE IT HERE  BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT IS HARD  TO




BREATHE.   LAST YEAR I CAN REMEMBER AT LEAST A COUPLE OF




TIMES DURING P.E.  WE WERE FORCED TO CANCEL  IT BECAUSE IT




WAS JUST  LUD1CRIOUS.  YOU RUN  AROUND THE TRACK A COUPLE OF




TIMES,  AND YOU START GASPING.   PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT.




STUDENTS  DON'T LIKE THAT.   I  FIGURE THAT SINCE WE'RE GOING
23 ! TO  BE  AROUND' LONGEST,  PERHAPS YOU OUGHT  TO LISTEN  TO  WHAT
24




25
WE SAY.   WE ARE  YOUNGER THAN  YOU ARE, PERHAPS,  AND WE  DON'T




HAVE  AS  MUCH EXPERIENCE, BUT  WE CAN DO THINGS.   AND AFTER  A

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                                                                  187
WHILE IT WILL  BE  US WHO ARE  THE ONES WHO WILL MAKE DECISIONS.




             BESIDES THE AIR  POLLUTION FACTOR,  WE DON'T LIKE




SWIMMING AT A  BEACH FILLED WITH TAR.  AND  AFTER ALL, THE




BEACH IS PRACTICALLY ALL THERE  IS TO DO  IN CARLSBAD.  SO,




KEEP  IN  MIND THINGS LIKE THIS WHEN YOU GO  TO  MAKE A DECISION




ON WHAT  YOU ARE GOING TO DO  TO  BUILD A REFINERY.




             THANK  YOU.




            (APPLAUSE)




             CHAIRMAN WALKER:  THANK YOU.




             WE HAVE NOW GONE THROUGH THE CARDS.   1 WILL NOW




CALL  THE NAMES OF  THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT RESPOND WHEN THEIR




NAMES  WERE EARLIER CALLED.   IF  ANY ARE HERE AND WISH TO




SPEAK, WE WILL HEAR YOU.  IF ANYBODY KNOWS  OF STATEMENTS




THAT  THEY WISH TO  FORWARD OR HAND IN, THIS  IS  THE OPPORTUNITY




             MR. STANLEY WALLEN,  HYMETTUS,  LEUCADIA.




             MR. C.  E.  KOOMS, SAN DIEGO BUILDING TRADES.




             MR. JAMES  D. THOMSON OF CARLSBAD.




             ARTHUR J.  MEIER, CHEVY CHASE,  LA  MESA,  CALIFORNIA,




HE REPRESENTS  LOCAL 230.  DOESN'T SAY WHAT  UNION.




             MONTY  NESB1T,   SAN  PABLO DRIVE, LAKE SAN MARCOS.




             ANTHONY BELLIN,  CAMIN1TO ESTRADA,  CARLSBAD.




             JOHN M.  STUPPY,  JAMES DRIVE.    I PRESUME  CARLSBAD.




             CECIL  J.  YOUNGSTROM OF CARLSBAD.   DON ALBERTO
24  DRIVE
25
             CHRIS  CHRISTIE, HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD.

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                                                                18!
            E.  W.  ANDERSON, SKYLINE  ROAD,  CARLSBAD.


            FRED  CLAYTON, PRUETT  DRIVE,  VISTA.

            BARBARA T1CE WILLIAMS,  MIRA SAL, VISTA.


            JAY C. FIKES, BUENA  VISTA CIRCLE, CARLSBAD.


            OLIVER CARLSON, ADAMS STREET,  CARLSBAD.


            GENE  YOUNG,  WEST  LINCOLN, ESCOND1DO.


             IRIS  SANKEY, SOUTH  SIERRA, SOLANA BEACH.


             LOU JONES,  CENTER STREET IN OCEANSIDE.

             IF YOU KNOW ANY  OF  THESE PEOPLE  AND  THEY  DO WISH


TO SEND  IN  COMMENTS,  WE WILL  RECEIVE THEM FOR UP TO 30 DAYS.

             I  SEE SOMEONE  APPROACHING THE PODIUM.

             MR. MILLER:  I  WAS  HERE  THIS MORNING,  AND I PUT


IN --  IN  FACT, 1   SPOKE  TO  YOU PERSONALLY ON A QUESTION I HAD.


I'M  JUST  ASKING YOU:   MAY  1  SPEAK?

             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   YES,  YOU  CERTAINLY MAY.


             MR. MICHAEL MILLER?

             MR. MILLER:  YES, SIR.
18 i              CHAIRMAN  WALKER:  YOU  GO  AHEAD,  MR. MILLER.
   I

19          '     MR.  MlLLER:   THANK YOU.


20               IS  THIS ON?

21               CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   1  BELIEVE SO.

22               MR.  MILLER:  I'M MICHAEL  MILLER, AND  i  LIVE  A


23 I  FEW BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE HIGH  SCHOOL.  1  GRADUATED  LAST -YEAR

24 j              ]  KNOW YOUR TIME  IS  VALUABLE  BUT AT THIS  POINT,


25 I  THIS ISSUE  IS  MORE VALUABLE TO ME  BECAUSE I  GO SURFING

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                                                                189
 1   PRACTICALLY EVERY  DAY, EVERY MORNING,  AND I  SEE THESE  OIL

 2   TANKERS COMING  IN  AND OUT.  WHAT'S  THIS TOWN COMING  TO,

 3   I  WONDER INSIDE  MY HEAD.  AND  TO ME IT DOESN'T SEEM  LOGICAL

 4   THAT A REFINERY  WOULDN'T  POLLUTE,  WOULDN'T MAKE MORE P.OLLU-

 5   TANTS INTO THE  AIR, CONTRIBUTE MORE POLLUTANTS INTO  THE  AIR.

 6   AS YOU CAN SEE,  I  DON'T HAVE A, PREPARED STATEMENT  (LAUGHTER).

 7   I'M AGAINST IT  (LAUGHTER).   (APPLAUSE)

 8               I WANT TO GROW  UP  IN THIS TOWN AND MAYBE POSSIBLY

 9   SETTLE DOWN AFTER  GOING AWAY  FOR A COLLEGE EDUCATION OR

10   SOMETHING, AND  I  DON'T WANT TO COME BACK  INTO THIS TOWN  AND

11   SEE IT TURN INTO A HUNTINGTON  BEACH, FOR  INSTANCE.  THERE'S

12   A REFINERY ACROSS  FROM THE  BEACH UP THERE, AND THIS  REFINERY

13   IS SUPPOSED TO  BE  LOCATED --  THIS PROPOSED REFINERY  IS

14   SUPPOSED TO BE  LOCATED 2.2  MILES FROM THE COASTLINE.

15               HUNTINGTON BEACH  UP THERE LOOKS  LIKE  A--EXCUSE

16   THE EXPRESSION--LOOKS LIKE  --

17               UNIDENTIFIED  SPEAKER:  SEWER.

is               -MR.  MILLER:   -- SEWER.  THANK YOU.   IT DOES.
   j
19   I MEAN,  IT'S  A  MESS.  AND CARLSBAD  IS A  BEAUTIFUL TOWN.

20   I LIVE HERE.   I'VE LIVED  HERE  MOST OF MY  LIFE.   I  LIVED  IN

21   OCEANSIDE  FOR TWO  YEARS.   I'M JUST TOTALLY AGAINST  IT.
   f
22                AND IF  I  SEE  IT COME INTO THIS TOWN,   I'M

23   SERIOUSLY  GOING TO BE PICKING UP MY BAG  AND  MOVING EITHER
   i
24  j TO  HAWAII  OR  SOMEWHERE,  SOMEWHERE WHERE  THERE  IS  NO OTHER
25
REFINERY.   (LAUGHTER)

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                                                                 190
 1               ALL RIGHT,  YOU GUYS  CAUGHT  ME,  BUT THAT'S  BESIDE




 2  THE POINT.   HAWAII  HAS  WINDS THAT  BLOW  OUT  THE POLLUTION




 3  AND FILTH YOU PUT  OUT IN THE AIR  FROM A REFINERY OUT  TO  SEA,




 4  AND CARLSBAD DURING --  WHAT'S HIS  NAME  SAID IN THE  EARLY




 5  MORNING  HOURS  THERE'S  NO WIND AT  ALL,  AND THIS  FILTH  AND




 6  POLLUTION WILL JUST BE  INVERTED  STRAIGHT UP INTO THE  OZONE




 7  LAYER AND WHATEVER,  BUT TO ME IT  DOESN'T SEEM LIKE  A  VERY




 8  GOOD --  ECONOMICALLY.IT SEEMS LIKE A GOOD THING  FOR THIS




 9  TOWN, BUT ENVIRONMENTALLY IT LOOKS LIKE A HELL HOLE.




10               THANK  YOU.




11              (APPLAUSE)




12               CHAIRMAN WALKER:  I  HAVE BEEN HANDED ONE  MORE




13  CARD, A  MR.  JIM RICE, WOODLAND WAY,  CARLSBAD.




14               MR. RICE:  I'M JIM RICE  FROM 3^03 WOODLAND WAY,




15  CARLSBAD.




16               I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING  PREPARED TONIGHT, BUT  I




17  JUST HAVE TO SAY  SOMETHING AGAINST THIS BEFORE IT'S ALL  OVER.




18  I  MOVED  DOWN FROM  L.A.  ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, MOVED DOWN




19  BECAUSE  THE  SMOG  AND POLLUTION IS  SO BAD UP THERE.   1  FINALLY




20  FOUND A  CLEAN COMMUNITY, AND NOW THEY'RE GOING TO  BUILD  A




21  REFINERY,  OR MIGHT BUILD ONE.  I  DON'T  KNOW WHERE  I'M GOING




22  TO GO NEXT.   MAYBE MEXICO.   I CAN'T  KEEP RUNNING AWAY, SO




23 ! I'M GOING TO TRY  TO FIGHT IT WHILE I CAN.  (APPLAUSE)




24               I TOO  SURF A LOT.  1  WAS OUT SURFING A  COUPLE




25  WEEKS AGO A  FEW MILES SOUTH OF WHERE THE TANKERS MOOR.

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                                                                191
   WHILE  1  WAS SURFING,  A COUPLE  55-GALLON DRUMS  CAME IN.   I

2  DON'T  THINK THAT'S  TOO GOOD,  TO LET DRUMS  FLOAT  AROUND.  YOU

3  CAN  GET HIT BY  A DRUM.   I  JUST WANT TO SAY  I'M AGAINST THIS.

4               (APPLAUSE)

5               CHAIRMAN WALKER:   I HAVE TWO MORE  CARDS.  WE

6  HAVE HEARD  FROM THE REST  OF  THE JACKSON FAMILY.   MR. GENE

   JACKSON, JR.

8               MR.  JACKSON:   I  HAVE JUST GOT  A COUPLE OF THINGS

9  TO  SAY.  ONE  IS, I  WORK  AT A PLACE JUST ACROSS THE ROAD FROM

10  THE  PROPOSED  REFINERY  SITE,  AND OUR BREAK  TIME,  LUNCH TIME

11  COINCIDES  JUST  WHEN THE  SUN  IS GOING DOWN.   WE LIKE TO GO

12  OUTSIDE THERE,  YOU KNOW,  ON  THE PATIO AND  TAKE A  LOOK AT

13  THE  SUNSETS.   AND A SUNSET OVER A  REFINERY JUST ISN'T  MUCH


14  TO  LOOK AT,  YOU KNOW.

15                ANOTHER THING IS THIS  KIND  OF  NOISE.   YOU  MAKE

16   THE ROUNDS OUTSIDE, SIT  OUT THERE  AND  BREATHE.  BEING  RIGHT

H   ACROSS  THE ROAD FROM  THE REFINERY, WE  ARE  NOT GOING TO  BE

18   ABLE TO DO THAT TOO MUCH  IF THEY WILL  BUILD THERE.

19                SOMETHING ELSE  IS  PROBABLY  IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL

20   IMPACT  REPORT,   BUT  JUST LIKE WHAT  I  HAVE  TO SAY ABOUT  IT:

21   THERE  IS  A LOT  OF  ANIMALS OUT  THERE.   YOU KNOW. COYOTES.

22   WF   SAW  A COYOTE WANDER BY AT  NOON,  BY  THE FENCE.   THAT'S  NOT

23   THE KIND OF THING  THAT'S  GOING TO  HAPPEN  WHEN THE AREA BUILDS
   i
24 i UP, THE REFINERY AND  THE  INDUSTRIAL  PARK  THAT WILL INEVITABLY

25  FOLLOW IT.  THAT'S  GOING  TO MOVE  THAT  WILD  LIFE OUT.   AND

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                                                               192
 1   IT'S  SOMETHING WE  SHOULD OPEN OUR EYES TO  BEFORE  IT'S TOO




 2   LATE.   THIS REFINERY  IS GOING TO DESTROY  IT.




 3    '           I'VE  SEEN OTHER REFINERY TOWNS.   EL SEGUNDO,




 4   MARTINEZ.  MARTINEZ  IS OUT IN THE MIDDLE  OF  NOWHERE, BUT THE




 5   IMPACT OF SOMETHING  BEING OUT IN THE MIDDLE  OF NOWHERE, HALF




 6   HIDDEN AWAY WHERE  PEOPLE CAN'T SEE  IT  IS  JUST THAT MUCH MORE




 7   DEVASTATING WHERE  YOU SEE ACRES AND ACRES PAVED OVER WITH




 8   TANKS, ACRES  AND  ACRES PAVED OVER WITH,  YOU  KNOW, THE  JUNK




 9   AND THE  PIPES  AND THE STEAM AND  INDUSTRIAL HELL THAT COMES




10   WITH A REFINERY.




n               CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN  FORTUNATE IN A LOT  OF  WAYS




12   TO ESCAPE  FROM THE PLIGHT OF THE  INDUSTRIAL -- THE  CHAINS




13   THAT  INDUSTRY HOLDS, YOU  KNOW,  HEAVY  INDUSTRY, YOU  KNOW,




    HOLDS SO MUCH OF AMERICA  IN.   I  THINK  WE SHOULD  TRY  TO KEEP




    IT THAT  WAY.   YOU KNOW, WE HAVE  A LOT  TO LOSE.   1  THINK THIS




    REFINERY IS  GOING TO  DESTROY MUCH.




                 THANK YOU.




                (APPLAUSE)




                 CHAIRMAN.WALKER:   LOIS BONCER.




                 MS. BONCER:   THIS  MEETING is SUPPOSED TO BE




    ABOUT- AIR 'POLLUTION  RATHER THAN OPENING  UP  OTHER PROBLEMS





    AN D  - -



                 CHAIRMAN WALKER:   WAIT JUST  A SECOND AND WE




    WILL  MOVE THE MICROPHONE  DOWN.




                 MS.  BONCER:   I'M SORRY, i NEVER GREW.
15




16




17




18




19




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22




23




24




25

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                                                                 193
 1                THANK YOU.


 2                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   NOW, WE HAVE  YOUR NAME RIGHT?


 3.                MS.  BONCER:   BONCER.


 4                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   AND YOU'RE  --


 5                MS.  BONCER:   5219 EL ARBOL  DRIVE IN CARLSBAD.


 6                CHAIRMAN WALKER:   THANK  YOU.


 7                MS.  BONCER:   1  HAVE BEEN A  RESIDENT OF TERRAMAR


 8   FOR OVER  TEN YEARS, WHICH IS A VERY  NEAR  NEIGHBOR OF THE


 9   ENCINA  POWER PLANT.   THE MACARIO  REFINERY PEOPLE SAY THEY


10   ARE GOING TO HAVE TO  MEET AIR POLLUTION STANDARDS AS SET


11   MY LAW  AND THAT, THEREFORE, WE HAVE  NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT,


12   JUST AS  THE ENCINA  POWER PLANT HAS  TO MEET AIR POLLUTION


13   STANDARDS.  AND THEY  SAY THEY DO  MEET THESE STANDARDS,  AND


14   THEY HAVE THE FIGURES  FROM THE  POLLUTION CONTROL TO  PROVE


,5   IT.  1  JUST WANT TO SAY THAT BEING  A NEAR NEIGHBOR  I HAVE  ON


16   MANY OCCASIONS SEEN THE BLACK SMOKE  POURING OUT.  NOT  EVERY


17   DAY, OF COURSE, BUT IT  IS  INVISIBLE, AND WE ALL KNOW IT


18   ISN'T  THE VISIBLE  PART  THAT  IS  THE  MOST DANGEROUS.


19                ON THREE  OCCASIONS  I  HAVE ATTENDED THE  AIR


20   CONTROL BOARD  IN SAN  DIEGO WHEN  THEY WERE  POURING  FORTH THE


21   BLACK  SMOKE, ASKING THEM TO  COME  UP AND TEST THE AIR NOW,
   t

22   AND  ON ALL THREE OCCASIONS  I HAVE GOTTEN A  RECEPTIONIST TYPE


23   WHO  TOLD  ME THERE   IS  NOBODY  IN  THE  OFFICE  WHOM  I CAN TALK TO,


24   NO ONE THERE WHO KNOWS  ANYTHING  ABOUT AIR  POLLUTION OR CAN


25   TAKE ANY  COMPLAINTS AT  THE TIME.   AND  I THINK  THIS  IS  VERY

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SIGNIFICANT.   THIS HAS HAPPENED  ON  THREE OCCASIONS WHICH,  TO

ME, SAYS  THEY'RE NOT  INTERESTED  IN  KEEPING CLOSE TABS ON

THE INDUSTRY  THAT THEY ARE  SUPPOSED TO BE MONITORING, THAT

THEY ARE  MOT  INTERESTED  IN  CITIZEN'S COMPLAINTS TO THAT EFFEC1

(APPLAUSE)

             NOW, I WOULD  LIKE  TO MAKE A SUGGESTION TO THE

MACAR10  PEOPLE, THAT  IF  THEY  ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY  CAN

MEET AND CONTINUE TO  MEET ALL  AIR POLLUTION STANDARDS AND

THAT THEIR  REFINERY WILL  NOT  BE  OF ANY  DANGER TO  ANYONE,

THAT THEY PUT UP A SEVERAL-MILLION DOLLAR BOND  OF  THEIR  OWN

MONEY  THAT  PEOPLE COULD  PUT IN CLAIMS AGAINST SHOULD THEY

FEEL THAT THEY  ARE SUFFERING  ANY ILL  EFFECTS  FROM THIS

REFINERY.  1  SUGGEST  THEY PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH

IS.    (APPLAUSE)  WITH  THEIR  MONEY,  I THINK PEOPLE  WOULD

FEEL A LOT  BETTER ABOUT  IT, WOULD  BE  MORE FREE  TO BELIEVE

THEM WHEN THEY  MAKE  THESE PROMISES.

             THANK YOU.

             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK  YOU.

             MRS.  JOAN JACKSON:  MAY  i ADDRESS --

             CHAIRMAN WALKER:   CERTAINLY,   i  AM  ABOUT TO

CALL  FOR ANYBODY  WHO HAS NOT YET SPOKEN.

             MRS.  JACKSON:  i  WOULD JUST LIKE  TO THANK YOU
23 I VERY,  VERY  MUCH FOR  COMING  TO OUR COMMUNITY.   I  THINK  THIS
   j
24  WAS  A  VERY  WELL-ORGANIZED  HEARING, AND WE REALLY  APPRECIATE

25  THE  OPPORTUNITY OF HAVING  YOU HERE.  AND  I WOULD  ALSO  LIKE

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                                                              195
   TO POINT OUT  TO  YOU  THAT IT MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE AN ALL-
   JACKSON FAMILY  SHOW.   HOWEVER,  I  HAVE TWO CHILDREN WHO
   WEREN'T HERE  TONIGHT.
                (APPLAUSE)
                CHAIRMAN WALKER:  ONE MORE?
                TELL US  YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS.
                MR.  DALCOFF:.   MY NAME is LARRY  DALCOFF.   i  LIVE
   AT  2601  JEFFERSON STREET IN CARLSBAD.   I  ALSO AM  HAPPY  THAT
   YOU  HELD  YOUR HEARING HERE.
                THIS IS A VERY WONDERFUL COMMUNITY.   I'M  VERY
   GLAD 1  LIVE HERE.  I'M  PARTICULARLY  HAPPY THAT  IT DOES  HAVE
   SO  MUCH  PARTICIPATION BY THE ORDINARY  CITIZEN  IN  ITS
   COMMUNITY AFFAIRS.  MANY VALUABLE THINGS  ABOUT  THE COMMUNITY.
      HOPE  THAT PRESERVATION OF THE  COMMUNITY AS  MUCH AS  POSSIBLE
    IN  ITS  PRESENT  FORM  IS  CONSIDERED- A DESIRE BY  YOUR COMMITTEE.
                THANK YOU.
               (APPLAUSE)
                CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   THANK YOU.
                BEFORE  WE  GO  TOO FAR SAYING ALL THE NICE THINGS,
    LET US BE  SURE  THAT EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THE
    AIR CONTAMINATION  PROBLEM HAS BEEN HEARD.
              '   ONE MORE?  TELL US YOUR NAME, ADDRESS, AND
23   AFFILIATION.
24
25
            MR. GUNTO :   MY  NAME  IS  JOE  GUNTO.   I  LIVE AT
146 REDWOOD AVENUE  IN  CARLSBAD.

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                                                             196
             CHAIRMAN  WALKER:   JOE --




             MR. GUNTO:   GUNTO, G-U-N-T-0.




             I  MOVED  TO  CARLSBAD ALMOST  EXACTLY ONE YEAR AGO




•TO GO  TO  SCHOOL AT MIRA COSTA COLLEGE,  AND THAT WAS PART  OF




WHY  1  CAME-HERE.   I  THINK PART OF WHY  1  CAME HERE  IS  BECAUSE




I  HAD  SUBJECTED MYSELF  TO TWO YEARS  OF  LIFE IN LONG BEACH,




IF YOU CAN CALL THAT  LIFE.  I'M  FACED  IN A COUPLE  OF  WEEKS




OF HAVING TO MOVE  NORTH TO A  TOWN A  LOT OF PEOPLE  IN




CALIFORNIA REALLY  LIKE.  THEY WOULD  LIKE TO GO THERE.   THAT'S




SANTA  BARBARA.  I  DON'T KNOW  IF  YOU  HAVE BEEN THERE.   I  HAVE




BEEN THERE A COUPLE  OF TIMES  IN  THE  LAST MONTH OR  SO  TO CHECK




IT OUT.   AND ONE  THING THAT REALLY  IMPRESSED ME WAS SOMEONE




SAYING,   "DON'T WORRY ABOUT GOING  SWIMMING HERE UNLESS




YOU'RE WILLING  TO  DRIVE ABOUT 35  MILES  UP THE COAST,  OR




EIGHT  OUT OF TEN  TIMES YOU WILL  COME BACK WITH OIL IN YOUR




HAIR," WHICH DOESN'T SOUND TOO APPEALING.




             BUT WHEN I  LIVED  IN  COLORADO A  FEW YEARS  AGO I




WORKED IN A CHEMICAL PLANT FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS.   I THINK




THAT OIL REFINERIES  AND  CHEMICAL PLANTS ARE KIND  OF A LOT




ALIKE.  AND THE MACAR10  PLANT HAS STATED THEY  CAN CONTROL




THE  AMOUNT OF  POLLUTION  THAT  THEY'RE GOING  TO  PUT INTO THE




AIR, AND THEY  GIVE ALL THE NICE,  NEAT  FIGURES  THEY HAVE  IN




THEIR LITTLE  BULLETIN, WHICH  PROBABLY  DOESN'T  MEAN ANY MORE




TO  YOU THAN  IT DOES TO ME.   BUT  THEY HAVE  GIVEN  IT TO YOU





ANYWAY.

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                                                                197
 1                AFTER WORKING  SIX YEARS IN A CHEMICAL PLANT AND




 2   OBSERVING  HOW THE MACHINERY  AND THE CONTROLS  THAT THEY USE




 3   TO CONTROL THE PROCESSES  AND STUFF WORK, THEY DON'T WORK




 4   TOO WELL.   THE OPERATORS  WHO RUN THE PLANTS  USUALLY END UP




 5   HAVING  TO  WORK WITH  THE  NEW  PROCESSORS, WHICH THE.MACAR10




 6   IS TOTALLY GOING TO  BE A NEW PROCESS,  SO YOU CAN EXPECT




 7   A LOT OF  PROBLEMS RIGHT  AT THE BEGINNING.   BUT THE OPERATORS




 8   USUALLY HAVE TO WORK A  LOT TO GET THE  PROCESS TO WORK AT ALL




 9   WITH ANY  KIND OF A TOLERANCE.




10                 1 THINK  SOMEBODY ELSE POINTED  OUT EARLIER THEY




II   USUALLY ALLOWED THEMSELVES SOME TYPE OF  TOLERANCE TO WORK




12   WITHIN.   YOU FIND  IF THINGS  REACH ABOUT  70 PERCENT OF THEIR




13   PEAK EFFICIENCY THEY'RE  DOING PRETTY WELL.  AND SOME OF




14   THE THINGS THAT ARE  CONSIDERED MORE  ON THE LOW PRIORITY OF




15   WHAT THE  PLANT  IS  INTERESTED  IN SEEING THAT THEY  DO WORK




16   EFFICIENTLY  ARE THE  THINGS THAT CONTROL POLLUTION.  THESE




17   THINGS  SEEM  TO  HAVE  A WAY OF  GETTING PUSHED  IN THE BACKGROUND




18   WHEN THEY ARE ALLOCATING  FUNDS TO  PREPARE  THEM AND TO





19   MAINTAIN  THEM.




20                 THE  LADY THAT WAS  UP  HERE  JUST TWO OR THREE




21   PEOPLE  BEFORE ME  POINTED  OUT  WHEN  SHE  USED TO CALL THE  AGENCY




22    IN  SAN  DIEGO WHICH  WAS SUPPOSED  TO BE  WATCHING THE EMCINA




23   PLANT  AND ASKED  THEM TO COME  UP  AND CHECK THE AIR NOW,  THAT




24    ISA  KEY   FACTOR.   AND IF  THE  PLANT GOES IN,  YOU  WILL  ALL




25   BECOME  AWARE OF THAT IN A FEW YEARS, THE  "NOW"  THING.

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                                                                19
1  HAVE BEEN  IN THE OFFICE  IN  THE PLANT I  WORKED  IN  IN




COLORADO WHEN CALLS WERE  COMING IN BY PEOPLE  THAT  LIVE IN




THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY  ABOUT "WHAT'S THE  SMELL  THAT'S




GOING  TO THE AIR?  AND  WILL THIS DAMAGE OUR  PLANTS  OR WILL'




THIS DAMAGE  OUR LUNGS"  OR WHATEVER.  THE ONLY THING WE WERE




TOLD,  "DON'T PICK  UP  THE  TELEPHONE.  WE HAVE A TAPE RECORDER




THAT ANSWERS ALL THESE  MESSAGES, AND WE WILL HANDLE IT




TOMORROW WHEN THE  OFFICE  STAFF COMES  IN."




             WELL,  1  DON'T THINK 1  HAVE TO  EXPLAIN TO  YOU




WHAT ALL  THAT MEANS.   BUT  I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU THIS.




LIKE  I'M  LOOKING  FORWARD TO COMING BACK TO CARLSBAD TO  LIVE.




1  REALLY  LIKE THIS AREA.    I LIKE  THE  CLEAN AIR THAT'S HERE.




1  LIKE THE PACE THAT IS HERE.   I  THINK  THAT'S WHAT A  LOT  OF




YOU  ARE  HERE  FOR,  THE PACE OF  LIFE.   AND  THAT TO ME  IS'  OF




KEY  IMPORTANCE.   IT ISN'T  FAST  LIKE LOS  ANGELES.   THE AIR




IS CLEAN.   AND  IF YOU'RE HERE  FOR THAT  REASON, THEN  YOU




BETTER MAKE  IT  KNOWN NOW AND  SPEAK UP OR  SAVE  IT BECAUSE




WHEN IT'S  GONE,  IT'S GONE.




             (APPLAUSE)




              CHAIRMAN WALKER:   i  SEE A GENTLEMAN  IN THE  BACK





THERE.




              WOULD YOU  GIVE US  YOUR NAME AND  ADDRESS  AND




AFFILIATION.
24               MR.  HOLLENDEN:  MY NAME  IS GARY HOLLENDEN.   I
25
 LIVE AT  5400  CARLSBAD BOULEVARD IN CARLSBAD.

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                                                                199
 1                GENTLEMEN,  1  REALIZE THAT LOVE OF  A PLACE IS NOT





 2   PART .OF YOUR CHARTER.   I  KNOW THAT YOU HAVE  A  SET OF




 3   STANDARDS  TO WHICH YOU  MUST WORK.  I WOULD LIKE TO, HOWEVER,




 4   POINT OUT  TO YOU THAT MOST DESIGNS ARE A  SET OF STANDARDS




 5   AND OBJECTIVES; AND  UNTIL THEY'RE BUILT AND  UNTIL THEY HAVE




 6   WORKED EVERY SINGLE  DAY,  WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WILL





 7   WORK OR WHETHER THEY  WON'T WORK.




 8                I AS AN  ELECTRICAL ENGINEER HAVE SEEN  MANY




 9   SYSTEMS DESIGNED AND NOT WORKED  TO  THOSE  POSSIBILITIES  OR




10   DESIGN OBJECTIVES.   I,  AS CHAIRMAN  OF  THE ELECTRICAL




11   ENGINEERING ORGANIZATION  IN  SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, HAVE




12   MANY PROBLEMS WHERE  ORGANIZATIONS HAVE  WORKED  FAR  BELOW --




13   1  MEAN OPERATIONS  HAVE  WORKED  FAR BELOW  THE DESIGN SPECIFI-





14   CATIONS.




15                 1  HAVE A PERSONAL  RULE  THAT  I APPLY  TO THE




16   VARIOUS  DESIGNS  THAT I  AM RESPONSIBLE FOR.  WHEN SOMEONE




17   COMES  TO ME  AND  SAYS,  "HERE  IS MY DESIGN, HERE IS  WHAT IT




18   WILL DO,"  I  SAY,  "NOW  TELL ME  ABOUT HOW  YOUR  OTHER DESIGNS
19




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25
WORKED  OUT.   TELL ME  THE RECORD OF  EVERY  ONE OF THE OTHER




UNITS YOU HAVE BUILT  AND HOW THEIR  ACTUAL OPERATIONS  HAVE




COMPARED  TO THE DESIGN OBJECTIVES."   I  THINK THIS WOULD  BE




ONE  THING WE SHOULD  SURE ASK THE  ORGANIZATIONS AFFILIATED




WITH  MACAR10 OR THEIR ENGINEERS:   "LET  US GET A RECORD OF




YOUR  DESIGN OBJECTIVES BEFORE YOU GET YOUR PERMISSION.  ALL




THE  VARIANCES, ALL  THE ACCIDENTS,  ALL THE SLIGHT  DEVIATIONS

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                                                                  200
THAT  WERE  PERMUTED  AND THAT YOU  ENCOUNTERED  OVER THE LAST


TEN YEARS."


             LET US THEN DISCOUNT  EVERY CLAIM  BY  THAT MUCH


AND THEN  BASE OUR  DECISION ON  THAT.   NOT ON THE  DESIGN


OBJECTIVES, BUT. ON THE PROJECTED  ACTUAL OPERATION.   1  THINK


WE WILL.COME UP WITH A VERDICT  THERE  ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY


IMPROVEMENT IN OUR AIR JUST BECAUSE  OF THE REFINERY.


             THANK  YOU.


            (APPLAUSE)


             CHAIRMAN WALKER:    THANK  YOU.   IS  THERE  ANYONE


ELSE  WHO  HAS OR HAS  NOT PUT IN  A  CARD WHO FEELS  AN  URGE TO


SPEAK  TO  US TONIGHT?


             VERY WELL,  THEN,  1   WILL  SAY FOR MYSELF  AND FOR


THE OTHERS  ON THE  PANEL HERE,   FOR THE AGENCY,  THAT  IS  HAS,


IN SPITE  OF APPEARANCES,  BEEN  A PLEASURE FOR  US  TO  COME


DOWN  AND  LISTEN TO YOU.   WE DO  TAKE  VERY SERIOUSLY  OUR


OBLIGATION  TO CONSIDER THE PUBLIC INTEREST AND TO CONSIDER


THE PUBLIC  DESIRES.


             1  DO NOT KNOW WHAT  THE ANSWER IS  GOING  TO' BE.


A GREAT MANY PEOPLE  WILL  HAVE  SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE
21  j FINAL  DECISION.  ALL  OF THE REMARKS  THAT HAVE  BEEN MADE
   i

22  | WILL BE  CAREFULLY  CONSIDERED.   THE  COMMENTS  THAT WERE SENT


23   !N AHEAD OF TIME WILL BE CAREFULLY  CONSIDERED.   WE ARE QUITE
24

25
COGNIZANT  OF THE FACT  THIS IS AN  IMPORTANT DECISION NOT ONLY


FOR YOU  BUT FOR US.

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                                                                201
 1               I WILL  SAY NOW FOR THE  RECORD THAT WE WILL  KEEP




 2   THE  RECORD OPEN  FOR 30 DAYS FROM  TODAY.   THE CLOSE  OF




 3   BUSINESS OF THE  23RD OF SEPTEMBER,  1975.   ALL REMARKS  THAT




 4   ARE  SENT IN WILL BE CONSIDERED A  PART OF THE RECORD.




 5               NOW,  I  WILL SAY THIS:   WE GET A LOT  OF  MAIL UP




 6   IN SAN FRANCISCO,  SO IF YOU WILL  IDENTIFY IT ON  THE RECORD




 7   AS HAVING TO  DO  WITH HE-124-- THAT  WAS LISTED IN THE  PUBLIC




 8   NOTICE, HE-124-- IT'S EVEN MORE  LIKELY TO GET TO THE  RIGHT




 9   FILE, THE RIGHT  RECORD.




10               VERY WELL, THEN,  IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY.   I  APPRE-




11   CIATE YOUR COURTESY AND YOUR  KINDNESSES TODAY.   I  RECOGNIZE




12   ALL OF YOUR ENTHUSIASMS, AND  THAT WILL, TOO, BE  PERHAPS




13   NOTED NOT  IN  THE RECORD BUT WILL  BE NOTED AMONG  THOSE WHO




14   ARE HERE.




15                THANK YOU AND  GOOD  NIGHT.




16               (APPLAUSE)




17               (THE  HEARING WAS ADJOURNED AT 9:05  O'CLOCK P.M.)




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