ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING ON PROPOSED
MACARIO OIL REFINERY
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
AUGUST 23, 1975
CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA
FlVECOAT, WITH and DUNN
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
SUITE 816 CHARTER OIL BUILDING
11O WEST "C" STREET
SAN DIEOO CALIFORNIA 92101
PHONE 7M/239-4191
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6 PANEL MEMBERS:
7 MATTHEW S. WALKER
HEARING OFFICER
8 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
9 FRANK M. COVINGTON
DIRECTOR, AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION
10 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
11 STAN SWICKER
ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER, AIR PROGRAMS BRANCH
12 AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
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IN D E X
EXHIBITS PAGE
1 FEDERAL REGISTER, PART II, DATED 3
5-14-75
2 APPLICATION FOR AUTHORITY TO CONSTRUCT <4
PERMIT BY MACARIO
3 LETTER FROM MACARIO TO EPA AND 5
ATTACHMENTS RE APPLICATION
k EPA ASSESSMENT OF PROPOSED MACARIO 5
REFINERY
5 AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION 5
6 AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION . 5
7 PRESS RELEASE RE PUBLIC HEARING 5
DATED 7-25-75
8 LETTER FROM FEA TO EPA DATED 7-31-75 7
9 LETTER FROM PUC TO EPA DATED 7-31-75 7
10 PRESS RELEASE RE PUBLIC HEARING 7
DATED 7-25-75
11 NEWSPAPER ARTICLES 7
12 EPA ANALYSIS OF LOCAL AIR OUALITY 7
13 PRESS RELEASE RE PUBLIC HEARING 55
DATED 8-20-75
14 LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL STATEMENT 55
15 ALLAN 0. KELLY STATEMENT 55
16 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "REDUCTIONS IN 55
EMISSIONS THROUGH FUEL SWITCHING"
17 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE LEGAL STATEMENT 60
18 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE RESEARCH 78
19 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE RESOLUTION 81
• STATEMENT
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EXHIBITS
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JOHN A. GRAY STATEMENT
LETTER FROM APCD TO SDG5E DATED 2-28-75
JOAN JACKSON STATEMENT
SIERRA CLUB STATEMENT
NATURAL GAS BAR GRAPH
SULPHUR-CONTENT CRUDE ANALYSIS
PROCESS SCHEME CHART
AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH OF PROPOSED SITE
MAP OF PROPOSED SITE
PRESS RELEASE RE MACARIO APPLICATION
DATED 5-7-75
LEAGUE OF WOMAN VOTERS STATEMENT
SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP
STATEMENT
POPPY DEMARCO STATEMENT
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "GERANIUMS VS.
SMOKESTACKS"
CAROL LAW STATEMENT
DOCUMENT ENTITLED "SIMULATION IN THE
SERVICE OF SOCIETY"
JEROME REHBERG (PACIFIC RESOURCES)
STATEMENT
GRAPHS
MRS. GEORGE BROWNLEY STATEMENT
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SPEAKERS PAGE
ACKERMAN, TED 78
BEAN, BRUCE 24
BISHOP, RICHARD . 69
BONCER, LOIS l92
BOUTVETTE, DON 177
BROWNLEY, MRS. GEORGE 162
COLE, WILLIAM 117
COVINGTON, F. M. 10
DALCOFF, LARRY 195
DAWSON, CLARENCE 150
GRAY, JOHN 95
GUNTO, JOE 195
HASSAN, JIM 158
HASSAN, ROSE 1&9
JACKSON, GENE 163
JACKSON, GENE, JR. 191
JACKSON, JOAN 104, 194
JACKSON, MEGAN 18&
JONES, GEORGE 38
KAPLAN, WILLIAM 99
KIMURA, EDWARD . 112
LAFFOON, C. M. 35
LAW, CAROL 134, 144
LOGSTON, DEE 64
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SPEAKERS
MACKETT, MARILYN
MC GILL, JOHN
MILLER, MICHAEL
NELSON, MARK
PRESCOTT, JOEL
PR I ITEM, LOU
RASH, L. W.
REHBERG, JEROME
RICE, JIM
RICHARDSON, R. R.
SCHULTZ, KEN
SLOAN, JEAN
SOMMERVILLE. RICHARD
TROMBLEY, CHARLES
VON HAD'EN, LLOYD
VON HADEN," THELMA
WALKER, MATTHEW
WANKET, DUANA
WILHELM, MARGARET
WOLFF, HAROLD
WCOLDRIDGE, OLIVE
WORD EN, DWIGHT
ZAMORA, VICKY
"!
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1 SATURDAY MORNING SESSION
2 AUGUST 23, 1975, 9:30 A.M.
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4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: GOOD MORNING. WE WOULD LIKE
5 TO GET THIS HEARING STARTED. MY NAME IS MATTHEW S. WALKER,
6 AND I HAVE BEEN DESIGNATED HEARING OFFICER FOR REGION 9
7 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, AND I WILL PRESIDE
8 AT THIS MEETING.
9 WITH ME ON THE DAIS TODAY IS MR. FRANK M.
10 COVINGTON, DIRECTOR, AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION,
11 REGION 9, AND MR. STAN SWICKER, ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER, AIR P
12 GRAMS BRANCH, AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION.
J3 I WOULD LIKE TO SAY AT THIS TIME WE DO HAVE
14 REGISTRATION CARDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE FROM THE YOUNG LADY
15 ON MY RIGHT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A PRESENTATION, WE
t6 WOULD REQUEST THAT YOU DO REGISTER. IF YOU ARE NOT GOING
17 TO MAKE A PRESENTATION, WE ALSO REQUEST THAT YOU REGISTER
18 BECAUSE WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW AS WELL AS POSSIBLE WHO IS
19 HERE.
20 THE PROCEEDINGS THIS MORNING WILL ROTATE AMONG
21 THE VARIOUS INTEREST GROUPS IN THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY HAVE
22 REGISTERED AND AS NEAR AS IT IS POSSIBLE FOR ME TO SEGREGATE
23 THEM. LATER ON WE WILL TAKE A SHORT RECESS FOR THE PURPOSES
24 OF THE COURT REPORTER, AND THERE WILL BE A QUEST 1ON-AND-
25 ANSWER SESSION OFF THE RECORD AFTER THE MID-MORNING RECESS.
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1 THEN WE WILL GO BACK ON THE RECORD BECAUSE WE ARE MAKING A
2 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF THIS HEARING.
3 THE RECORD IS BEING MADE BY MR. JERE L. WITH OF
4 THE FIRM OF FIVECOAT, WITH & DUNN. A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT
5 WILL BE AVAILABLE IN THE OFFICES OF REGION 9 AT 100 CALIFORNIA
6 STREET IN DUE COURSE. ANYONE WHO WISHES A COPY OF THE RECORD
7 SHOULD MAKE INDIVIDUAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE COURT REPORTER.
8 I WILL MAKE A STATEMENT OUTLINING THE PURPOSE OF
9 THIS HEARING AND GIVE SOME OF THE BACKGROUND AND INDICATE
10 WHY WE ARE HERE AND WHAT IT IS PROPOSED THAT WE SHOULD DO.
11 THEN MR. COV1NGTON WILL MAKE A STATEMENT OUTLINING THE
12 TECHNICAL PROBLEMS INVOLVED WITH THIS HEARING. AFTER THAT,
13 WE WILL HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC.
H FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN WHAT THIS
15 HEARING IS ALL ABOUT. THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
16 HAS A VERY LIMITED ROLE TO PLAY IN THE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL
17 OF THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY. OUR SOLE PURPOSE HERE IS
18 TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE SOURCE WILL PREVENT OR INTERFERE
19 WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR
20 QUALITY STANDARDS IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. CONSIDERATIONS
21 OF LAND USE, PLANNING AND ZONING, COASTAL COMMISSION ARE ALL
22 COMMITTED TO OTHER AGENCIES. THIS IS OUR SOLE PURPOSE AND
23 OUR SOLE GROUNDS FOR DISCRETION.
24 THE CLEAN AIR ACT WAS SIGNED BY'THE PRESIDENT
25 AND BECAME LAW ON DECEMBER 31ST, 1970. THAT ACT WAS A
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1 COMPLETE REVISION OF ALL FEDERAL AIR POLLUTION LEGISLATION
2 UP UNTIL THEN. SECTION 110 OF THE ACT REOUIRES EACH STATE
3 TO SUBMIT TO THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTEC-
4 TION AGENCY A PLAN TO ACHIEVE AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS
5 WITHIN THREE YEARS AFTER THE PROMULGATION OF SUCH STANDARDS.
6 SUCH PLANS ARE REQUIRED TO INCLUDE A PROCEDURE FOR THE
7 REVIEW AT THE LOCATION OF NEW SOURCES TO WHICH STANDARDS OF
8 PERFORMANCE APPLY. THESE SOURCES INCLUDE PETROLEUM REFINERIES
9 IF A STATE DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A PROCEDURE, THEN THE
10 ADMINISTRATOR MUST, ACCORDING TO THE ACT, PROMULGATE
n PROCEDURES WHEREBY EPA ITSELF WILL CONDUCT SUCH A REVIEW.
12 ON MAY 31ST, 1972, THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE EPA
,3 APPROVED THE CALIFORNIA STATE IMPLEMENTATION PLAN WITH
,4 CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS. ONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS TO THE APPROVAL
15 OF THE CALIFORNIA PLAN WAS THAT IT DID NOT CONTAIN THE
16 REGULATIONS REQUIRED FOR THE REVIEW PROCEDURE TO CONSTRUCTION
17 OF THE LOCATION OF NEW SOURCES FOR WHICH A STANDARD OF
18 PERFORMANCE WILL APPLY. THEREFORE, AFTER DUE CONSIDERATION,
19 THE ADMINISTRATOR PROMULGATED SUCH REGULATIONS ON MAY 14, 197:
20 AND WE WILL HAVE A COPY OF THOSE REGULATIONS MADE A PART
21 OF THIS RECORD AS EXHIBIT 1.
22 THESE REGULATIONS HAVE BEEN CODIFIED AND
23 PUBLISHED IN VOLUME 40 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS
24 IN SECTION 52.233(6). THAT'S THE OFFICIAL PUBLICATION FOR
25 FEDERAL REGULATIONS.
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1 THE REGULATIONS REQUIRE THAT NO OWNER OR OPERATOR
2 SHALL COMMENCE CONSTRUCTION OR MODIFICATION AT ANY NEW SOURCE
3 AFTER THE 14TH OF MAY, 1973 WITHOUT FIRST OBTAINING APPROVAL
4 FROM THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE LOCATION OF EACH SUCH SOURCE.
5 THE DISCRETION COMMITTED TO THE ADMINISTRATOR IS SET FORTH
6 IN THE REGULATION AND IS AS FOLLOWS:
7 "NO APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT OR MODIFY WILL BE
8 GRANTED UNLESS THE APPLICANT SHOWS TO THE SATISFACTION OF
9 THE ADMINISTRATOR THAT THE SOURCE WILL NOT PREVENT OR
10 INTERFERE WITH ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF ANY NATIONAL
II STANDARD."
12 THAT IS OUR PURPOSE IN BEING HERE, IN ORDER
13 TO DISCHARGE THIS DUTY.
14 OFFICIALS OF REGION 9 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL
15 PROTECTION AGENCY HAVE ENGAGED IN A SOMEWHAT EXTENSIVE
16 SERIES OF MEETINGS. IN SEPTEMBER OF 1974, EPA MET WITH
17 REPRESENTATIVES OF THE MACARIO REFINERY, OFFICIALS OF THE
18 SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY FOR A PRELIMINARY MEETING
19 TO OUTLINE THE SCOPE OF THE PROPOSED PROJECT.
20 ON THE 14TH OF OCTOBER, 1974, REGION 9 RECEIVED
21 AN APPLICATION PURSUANT TO THE REGULATIONS SEEKING APPROVAL
22 OF THE PROJECT, AND THIS WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 2 FOR
23 THE PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING. THE STAFF OF EPA REGION 9
24 REVIEWED THE APPLICATION, DETERMINED THAT, AS SUBMITTED, IT
25 WAS INCOMPLETE, AND REQUESTED ADDITIONAL INFORMATION.
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ON THE 9TH OF DECEMBER, 1974, ADDITIONAL
INFORMATION WAS RECEIVED AS AN AMENDMENT TO' THE APPLICATION,
AND THIS FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE HEARING WILL BE MARKED
EXHIBIT 3. THE STAFF THEN COMMENCED A REVIEW OF THE APPLI-
CATION TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IT MET THE REQUIREMENTS
OF THE CLEAR AIR ACT AND THE REGULATIONS ADOPTED PURSUANT
TO IT.
ON THE 27TH OF MARCH, 1975, THIS YEAR, THE STAFF
OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MET WITH THE SAN
DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT IN SAN DIEGO, WITH
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE SAN DIEGO REGIONAL COAST COMMISSION.
THE PROPOSED REFINERY WAS DISCUSSED AND REVIEWED WITH THESE
PEOPLE TO GET FROM THEM THEIR FEELINGS AND COMMENTS FOR THE
PURPOSE OF AIDING EPA IN ITS REVIEW.
ON THE 7TH OF MAY, 1975, EPA PUBLISHED AN
ASSESSMENT OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY PLAN, AND THIS COMMENCED
A PERIOD OF OPEN PUBLIC COMMENT. THE ASSESSMENT WILL BE
MARKED AS EXHIBIT 4 FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS HEARING.
THE ASSESSMENT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE NEWSPAPER.
AN AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION TO THAT EFFECT WILL BE MARKED
AS EXHIBITS 5 AND 6.
A PRESS RELEASE WAS ISSUED DESCRIBING THE EPA
PRELIMINARY ASSESSMENT, AND THAT WAS ISSUED TO NEWSPAPERS
IN TME VICINITY. A COPY OF THE PRESS RELEASE WILL FOR THE
PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 7.
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SUBSEQUENTLY, THE STAFF OF REGION 9 OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MET AGAIN IN SAN DIEGO WITH
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL
DISTRICT AND THE CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD. AT THIS
MEETING MORE INFORMATION WAS FURNISHED TO THE STAFF OF
REGION 9. SUBSEQUENT TO THE PUBLICATION OF THE PROPOSED
ASSESSMENT, THE REGIONAL STAFF RECEIVED ABOUT 150 LETTERS.
THOSE LETTERS HAVE BEEN REVIEWED. THEY ARE HERE AVAILABLE
FOR PERUSAL AND COMMENT, AND THEY WILL BE CONSIDERED AS
PART OF THE FORMAL RECORD OF THIS HEARING, ALTHOUGH I'M NOT
MARKING THEM AT THIS TIME.
AS A RESULT OF THE INFORMATION RECEIVED AT ALL
OF THESE MEETINGS WITH THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL
DISTRICT, THE REGIONAL COASTAL COMMISSION, THE CALIFORNIA
AIR RESOURCES BOARD, THE SAN DIEGO GAS g ELECTRIC COMPANY
AND OTHERS, AND AS A RESULT OF THE MANY LETTERS THAT WERE
RECEIVED AND SUBMITTED TO THE REGIONAL STAFF, IT WAS
DETERMINED THAT EVEN THOUGH A PUBLIC HEARING IS NOT LEGALLY
REQUIRED FOR THIS PURPOSE, IT WAS DESIRABLE TO HOLD A PUBLIC
HEARING ON THIS ISSUE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF THE PROPOSED
REFINERY.
LETTERS OF INQUIRY ON THIS SUBJECT WERE ALSO
SENT TO THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION AND THE CALIFORNIA
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION REQUESTING INFORMATION FROM
THEM AS TO THE EFFECT THIS REFINERY WILL HAVE ON THE SPECIAL
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ISSUES THAT ARE COMMITTED TO THEIR DISCRETION.
ON THE 22ND OF JULY, 1975 A RESPONSE WAS
RECEIVED FROM THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATI ON, ' AND ON THE
31ST OF JULY A RESPONSE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE CALIFORNIA
PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION. THESE WILL BE MARKED IN ORDER
EXHIBIT 8 AND EXHIBIT 9.
ON THE 25TH OF JULY, 1975 A PRESS RELEASE WAS
AGAIN SENT TO THE NEWSPAPERS IN THE VICINITY AND TO ALL
CITIZENS WHO HAD SUBMITTED COMMENTS. A COPY OF THIS PRESS
RELEASE WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 10.
AND A COPY OF SOME OF THE PRESS COMMENTS THAT
OCCURRED AS A RESULT OF THAT I HAVE HERE IN THREE PAGES,
AND THAT WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 11.
NOW, 'IN ORDER TO HEAR FROM ALL MEMBERS OF THE
PUBLIC INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT OF THIS PROPOSED MACARIO
REFINERY, THIS PUBLIC HEARING HAS BEEN SCHEDULED. NOTICES
WERE PUBLISHED IN JULY OF 1975 AND ON AUGUST 14TH, 1975
AND ON AUGUST 21ST, 1975 IN THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS. COPIES
OF THESE NOTICES WILL BE INSERTED IN THE RECORD FOR THE
PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING.
NOW, AS I SAID, THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT
EITHER BY STATUTE OR REQUIREMENT THAT REGION 9 OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING ON
THE ISSUE OF THE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL OF THE APPLICATION
OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY. HOWEVER, IT IS THE POLICY OF THE
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1 AGENCY TO SEEK PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN ITS WORK AND TO INVITE
2 PUBLIC COMMENTS. THIS HEARING IS BEING HELD FOR THAT PURPOSE
3 WE DO HAVE A VERY LIMITED ROLE TO PLAY. THE ONLY FUNCTION
4 THAT WE HAVE IS TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE PROPOSED
5 REFINERY WILL PREVENT OR INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR
6 MAINTENANCE OF THE NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.
7 MR. COVINGTON WILL DESCRIBE TO YOU WHAT A
8 NATIONAL AIR QUALITY STANDARD IS, WHAT THE STANDARDS ARE FOR
9 THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. HE WILL ALSO DESCRIBE HOW THE
10 AGENCY WENT ABOUT PERFORMING A PROPOSED APPROVAL OF THE
II APPLICATION AND THE STANDRADS USED FOR REACHING THAT
12 PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION.
13 NOW, IN ORDER TO BE AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE TO
14 ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO MAY WISH TO SPEAK HERE TODAY, WE HAVE
15 A PROCEDURE AS TO THE ORDER IN WHICH THOSE WISHING TO SPEAK
16 WILL BE HEARD. FIRST, WE WILL HEAR FROM THE ELECTED OFFICIAL
17 I HAVE SOME CARDS AT THE DESK HERE, AND SO FAR I DO NOT HAVE
18 A REGISTRATION CARD FROM ANY ELECTED OFFICIALS. ARE THERE
19 ANY HERE WHO WISH TO SPEAK?
20 . I OBSERVE NONE.
21 THEN WE WILL HEAR FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF FIVE
22 OTHER GROUPS AS NEARLY AS POSSIBLE IN THE ORDER IN WHICH
23 THEY HAVE REGISTERED. THE FIRST GROUP WILL BE THE
24 UNAPFILIATED PRIVATE CITIZENS. THEN WHEN WE HAVE HEARD FROM
25 ONE OF THAT GROUP WE WILL HEAR FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF A
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PUBLIC AGENCY, AND THEN FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF SPECIAL
INTEREST GROUPS, THEN FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF BUSINESS OR
INDUSTRIAL COUNCIL, AND FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER GROUPS
NOT DESCRIBED ABOVE.
I WILL TRY TO CALL UPON ONE FROM EACH OF THESE
GROUPS IN THE ORDER OF THEIR REGISTRATION IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
IF IT APPEARS--AND IT DOES--THAT THERE IS A LARGE NUMBER
FROM A PARTICULAR GROUP, MORE THAN ONE MAY BE CALLED FROM
THAT GROUP BEFORE GOING ON TO THE NEXT.
THESE PROCEEDINGS, AS I SAID, ARE BEING REPORTED
AND WILL BE TRANSCRIBED. IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED IF YOU
WOULD USE THE PODIUM FOR MAKING YOUR REMARKS IN ORDER TO
HAVE A COMPLETE RECORD AND TO KNOW WHO IS SPEAKING SO THAT
YOUR NAME WILL GET IN THE RECORD AND YOUR REMARKS ACCURATELY
REPORTED. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU USE THE PODIUM IF AT
ALL POSSIBLE. ANYONE WHO HAS A WRITTEN.OR PREPARED
STATEMENT NEED NOT READ IT AT LENGTH. WE WILL READ ALL OF
'THE STATEMENTS THAT ARE SUBMITTED TO US. THEY WLLL BE AS
MUCH A PART OF THE RECORD AS IF YOU HAD READ THEM AT LENGTH.
WE WILL TAKE A RECESS DURING THE MID-MORNING.
AND AFTER THAT WE WILL TAKE A QUEST 1ON-AND-ANSWER PERIOD.
WE WILL TAKE A RECESS AT THE LUNCH HOUR. WE WILL RECONVENE
THIS AFTERNOON AT 1:30 AND AGAIN AT 7:30. THERE WILL BE
CONTINUATIONS OF THIS HEARING, AND ALL OF THE PRELIMINARY
REMARKS WILL NOT BE MADE. SO, IT IS NOT NECESSARY IF YOU
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in
1 HAVE BEEN AT THE MORNING MEETING TO COME TO ALL OF THE OTHERS
2 UNLESS YOU WISH TO DO SO.
3 IT WILL BE APPRECIATED IF EXTENSIVE REMARKS
4 COULD BE REDUCED TO WRITING RATHER THAN READ VERBATIM ALOUD.
5 I WOULD ALSO APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD REFRAIN FROM BEING
6 UNDULY REPETITIVE. IF SOMEBODY ELSE HAS SAID. WHAT YOU'RE
7 GOING TO SAY, AND YOU'RE SAT ISFI ED WI TH HIS STATEMENT OF IT,
8 IT'S PERFECTLY SATISFACTORY IF YOU STAND UP AND SAY YOU
9 AGREE WITH WHATEVER WAS SAID BEFORE YOU. IT WILL SAVE YOUR
JO TIME AND OURS AND THE PATIENCE OF EVERYBODY INVOLVED.
11 1 WILL NOW. CALL ON MR. COV1NGTON FOR A STATEMENT
12 AND THE BACKGROUND OF THE BASIS OF THE SUBJECT MATTER OF
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13 THIS HEARING AND THE APPRAISMENT OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY.
H MR. COVINGTON: GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND
15 GENTLEMEN.
16 AS AN INTRODUCTION ON THE TECHNICAL SIDE OF IT,
17 I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR US TO -- I WAS GOING TO
18 DESCRIBE THE EPA'S ROLE, AND I'LL SKIP THAT.
19 TWO, IDENTIFY THE PERTINENT ISSUES WHICH WERE
20 RAISED DURING THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION OF THIS PROJECT;
21 THIRD, TO DETAIL THE PROCEDURES INVOLVED IN THE REVIPW
22 PROCESS; NEXT, TO DISCUSS THE APPROACH TAKEN BY EPA; AND,
23 FINALLY, TO LIST THE RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS OF OUR STUDIES
24 AS THEY RELATE TO THE AIR QUALITY AND PROPOSED CONSTRUCTION
25 OF THE REFINERY.
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1 I WILL MAKE MENTION OF THE FACT ONLY BRIEFLY IN
2 PASSING THAT OUR ROLE AS A FEDERAL REGULATORY AGENCY WAS TO
3 HAVE ESTABLISHED NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS
4 WHICH ARE AIMED AT THE PROTECTION OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND
5 WELFARE, AND THIS HAS BEEN DONE, AND WE HAVE IN THE CONTEXT
6 OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY EXAMINED THE EMISSIONS FROM THE
7 REFINERY.
8 STATE AND LOCAL AGENCIES ARE REQUIRED TO DEVELOP
9 ACCEPTABLE PLANS FOR ACHIEVING AND MAINTAINING THESE STANDARDS
10 AND TO SUBMIT THEM TO EPA FOR APPROVAL. IN SOME INSTANCES
11 A PORTION OF THOSE PLANS THUS FAR SUBMITTED TO EPA HAVE
12 BEEN INADEQUATE AND WERE SUBSEQUENTLY DISAPPROVED BY EPA.
13 WHEN THESE DISAPPROVALS OCCURRED, EPA WAS REQUIRED TO
14 PREPARE AND IMPLEMENT A SUBSTITUTE PLAN. IT'S EXACTLY THAT
15 SITUATION WHICH EXISTS TODAY, WHERE EPA HAS HAD TO SUBSTITUTE
16 ITS REGULATIONS FOR THE REVIEW OF NEW SOURCES OF AIR
17 POLLUTION IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY.
18 NOW, EPA NEW SOURCE REVIEW REGULATIONS REQUIRE
19 THAT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CONSTRUCT A NEW SOURCE OF AIR
20 POLLUTION MUST OBTAIN APPROVAL PRIOR TO BEGINNING CONSTRUC-
21 TION. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE APPLICANT TO
22 DEMONSTRATE TO EPA THAT THEIR PROJECT WILL NOT PREVENT OR
23 INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF THE NATIONAL
24 STANDARDS. IN THIS REGARD, MACARIO SUBMITTED ITS APPLICATION,
25 AS WE HAVE OUTLINED; AND ON THE BASIS OF THE DATA THAT THEY
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HAVE PROVIDED, CONDUCTED OUR PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS. REGULA-
TIONS REQUIRE EPA TO PREPARE AN ANALYSIS OF THE EFFECT OF
SUCH CONSTRUCTION ON THE AMBIENT AIR QUALITY, AND TO PROPOSE
APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL BASED ON THAT ANALYSIS. THE ANALYSIS
AND PROPOSED ACTIONS ARE THEN MADE AVAILABLE TO PUBLIC
COMMENT, AND WE HAVE RECITED THE SEQUENCE IN SUBSTANTIAL
DETAIL AS TO HOW THAT PROCEDURE WAS CARRIED OUT.
AT THIS POINT WE ARE CONDUCTING A HEARING
BECAUSE, AS A MATTER OF POLICY, EPA MAKES EVERY REASONABLE
EFFORT TO OBTAIN SUBSTANTIVE CITIZEN INPUT 'TO AID IN OUR
DECISION-MAKING. 1 THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO CALL YOUR
ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT EPA ALSO HAS MAJOR RESPONSIBILITIES
FOR THE PREVENTION OF SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION OF AIR
QUALITY. EPA REGULATIONS REQUIRE THAT CERTAIN AIR QUALITY
EFFECTS BE LIMITED TO A FIXED AMOUNT OR INCREMENT. UNDER
THESE REGULATIONS, WHERE IT IS DEMONSTRATED THAT A PROPOSED
PROJECT WILL NOT VIOLATE THE AIR QUALITY INCREMENT, APPROVAL
WILL ALSO BE GRANTED.
IN ORDER TO PROPERLY IDENTIFY THE ISSUES RAISED
BY THE PROJECT, A BRIEF REVIEW OF THE RELEVENT PORTIONS OF
THE CONTROL STRATEGIES FOR THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY AIR QUALITY
CONTROL REGION 1 THINK IS IN ORDER.
YOU'RE NOT HEARING US BACK THERE? ALL RIGHT.
IS THIS BETTER, IF 1 GET A LITTLE CLOSER?
A VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF THE STRATEGY FOR
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1 ATTAINING AND MAINTAINING STANDARDS IN THIS LOCALITY IS IN
2 PART BASED ON THE USE OF CLEAN FUELS. BY THAT I MEAN
3 NATURAL GAS AND LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, AND SPECIFICALLY LESS
4 THAN .5 PERCENT SULPHUR CONTENT, WHEREVER THAT'S POSSIBLE.
5 THE GROWING UNAVAILABILITY OF ADEQUATE QUANTITIES
6 OF THESE FUELS WILL HAVE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON AIR QUALITY.
7 FOR EXAMPLE, THE USE OF FUEL OIL IN PLACE OF NATURAL GAS
8 WILL RESULT IN SIGNIFICANT INCREASES IN EMISSIONS OF OXIDES
9 OF NITROGEN, SULPHUR DIOXIDE, HYDROCARBONS, AND PARTICULATE
10 MATTER. THE UNAVAILABILITY OF LOW-SULPHUR CONTENT OIL WILL
11 RESULT IN EVEN MORE SULPHUR DIOXIDE EMISSIONS TO THE ATMOS-
12 PHERE. DATA OBTAINED BOTH FROM THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINIS-
13 TRAT10N AND THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES SEEM TO'PROVIDE AMPLE
14 EVIDENCE THAT THESE NECESSARY FUELS ARE NOW AND WILL CONTINUE
15 TO BE IN VERY SHORT SUPPLY IN CALIFORNIA AS WELL AS ELSEWHERE
16 IN THE NATION.
17 COMPLICATING THE PROBLEM OF SHORTAGES IN CLEAN
18 FUELS IS THE ISSUE OF FUELS ALLOCATION. THERE I-S A QUESTION
19 AS TO WHETHER THE CLEAN FUELS PRODUCED AT MACARIO WILL BE
20 USED IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY AND, THEREFORE, HAVE A BENEFICIAL
21 EFFECT.ON THE AIR QUALITY IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY
22 CONTROL REGION. THE ALLOCATION OF CLEAN FUELS, HOWEVER,
23 IS.BEYOND THE SCOPE OF EPA'S SPECIFIC AUTHORITIES. WE ARE,
24 AS'A FEDERAL AGENCY, HOWEVER, WORKING CLOSELY WITH THE
25 FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION AND THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES
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1 COMMISSION, BOTH OF WHOM DO HAVE ALLOCATION AUTHORITY TO
2 INSURE THAT ANY ASSUMPTIONS MADE IN OUR ANALYSES CONCERNING
3 THE MARKETING OF CLEAN FUELS PRODUCED AT THE REFINERY ARE
4 VALID.
5 SINCE THESE TWO ISSUES--THAT IS, FIRST, THE
6 NEED FOR THE REFINERY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CONTROL STRATEGY
7 HERE AND, SECOND, THE FUELS ALLOCATION MATTER--ARE CRITICAL
8 TO OUR ANALYSES, WE ARE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN RECEIVING
9 TESTIMONY ON THESE SUBJECTS.
10 A NUMBER OF OTHER ISSUES HAVE BEEN RAISED
II REGARDING OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL ASPECTS OR POTENTIAL EFFECTS
12 OF THE PROJECT. THESE INCLUDE SUCH REAL CONCERNS AS
13 POTENTIAL OIL SPl'LLS, NOISE POLLUTION, AESTHETICS, AND THE
H EFFECTS ON FUTURE GROWTH. NOW, THE EPA HAS CONCERN WITH AND
15 HAS AUTHORITY PERTAINING TO SEVERAL OF THESE ISSUES.
16 HOWEVER, THESE MATTERS IN MANY CASES -- OR IN ALL CASES
17 ARE GOING TO BE ADDRESSED TO OTHER FEDERAL, STATE, OR LOCAL
18 DECISION-MAKING PROCESSES.
19 THE PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING, AS HAS BEEN STATED
20 BY MR. WALKER TODAY, RELATES SOLELY TO THE PURPOSE OF
21 DETERMINING THE AIR QUALITY ASPECTS OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY.
22 THE APPROACH TAKEN TO ANALYZE THE AIR QUALITY
23 EFFECTS OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY CONSISTED OF TWO PARTS.
24 THE FIRST WAS CONCERNED WITH THE REGION-WIDE IMPACT OF THE
25 PROJECT, AND THE SECOND EXAMINED THE LOCALIZED EFFECT IN THE
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1 CARLSBAD AREA. EVALUATIONS WERE MADE TO DETERMINE THE AIR
2 QUALITY EFFECT IN THE INCREASES OF THE EMISSIONS OF HYDRO-
3 CARBONS, SOX, CARBONMONOXIDE, AND OXIDES OF NITROGEN AND
4 PART!CULATES. ALTHOUGH ALL INCREASES IN EMISSION ARE OF
5 CONCERN, THE ONLY POLLUTANT WHICH SEEMED TO RAISE A QUESTION
6 AS TO THE POSSIBLE INTERFERENCE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR
7 MAINTENANCE OF THE STANDARD WAS HYDROCARBONS, THIS POLLUTANT
8 IS OF CONCERN BECAUSE HYDROCARBON IS A PRIME CONSTITUENT
9 IN THE FORMATION OF OXIDANTS, AND THERE ARE FREQUENT
10 VIOLATIONS IN THE OXIDANT STANDARD IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR
1! QUALITY CONTROL REGION. ANY INCREASE IN HYDROCARBON
12' EMISSIONS WOULD INTERFERE WITH THE MAINTENANCE OF THE OXIDANT
13 STANDARD UNLESS THESE INCREASES WERE ACCOMPANIED BY APPRO-
14 PRIATE CORRESPONDING HYDROCARBON REDUCTIONS. WE HAVE
15 CONCLUDED IN THIS CASE THAT.HYDROCARBON EMISSIONS ARE
16 EXPECTED TO BE LESS THAN THOSE EXPECTED TO OCCUR WITHOUT
H THE AVAILABILITY OF CLEAN FUELS. THIS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT
18 IN OUR ANALYSES WHICH HAVE BEEN MADE AVAILABLE.
19 NOW, THE MACARIO REFINERY SITUATION HAS SOME
20 UNIQUE FEATURES WHICH WERE CONSIDERED IN THE TOTAL ANALYSES.
21 FIRST, THE PRIME PURPOSE OF THE REFINERY IS 'TO PRODUCE LOW-
22 SULPHUR FUEL OILS FOR USE PRIMARILY BY SAN DIEGO GAS 5
23 ELECTRIC WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AREA. WITHOUT THIS FUEL, IT
24 IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THERE WILL NOT BE SUFFICIENT LOW-
25 SULPHUR FUELS AVAILABLE TO MEET THE SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC
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1 FUEL DEMANDS FOR 1978. IF THIS TURNS OUT TO 'BE THE CASE,
2 THEN THE ONLY AVAILABLE FUEL FOR MEETING THE DEMANDS WILL
3 ESSENTIALLY BE A HIGHER-SULPHUR-CONTENT OIL. A LARGE-SCALE
4 SWITCH TO HiGH-SULPHUR-CONTENT OIL WILL SERIOUSLY JEOPARDIZE
5 THE MAINTENANCE OF THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.
6 SECOND, AND EVEN MORE RELEVANT TO THE AIR QUALITY
7 ISSUE; is THE REFINERY'S PROPOSED PRODUCTION OF SYNTHETIC
8 NATURAL GAS. THE SNG PRODUCED IS EXPECTED TO BE UTILIZED AS
9 A REPLACEMENT FUEL AT FACILITIES WHERE NATURAL GAS CURTAILMEN1
10 WILL OCCUR.
11 LATEST STATE PUBLIC UTILITY COMMISSION DATA
12 INDICATE THAT A COMPLETE CURTAILMENT FOR NATURAL GAS FOR
13 ALL THE FIRM--AND BY "FIRM/1 I MEAN NON-INTERRUPTABLE
H CUSTOMERS, SUCH AS IN YOUR HOMES--BY 1979. FURTHER, AN FEA
15 REPORT ON THE IMPACT OF THESE CURTAILMENTS INDICATES A
16 LARGE SHORTFALL IN MIDDLE DISTILLATE OIL, WHICH IS THE
17 REPLACEMENT FUEL FOR NATURAL GAS. THESE SHORTAGES WILL HAVE
18 AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON A]R QUALITY BY SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASING
19 EMISSIONS FROM ALL ALTERNATIVE FUEL CONSUMPTION.
20 WE CONSIDERED THESE FACTORS IN CONDUCTING THAT
21 PORTION OF THE ANALYSIS DEALING WITH THE REGIONAL EFFECT.
22 WE ASSUMED FULL UTILIZATION OF ALL MACARIO PRODUCTS WOULD
23 BE WITHIN SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION TO MAKE UP
24 THE PROJECTED FUEL SHORTAGES. AS INDICATED IN OUR MAY 7TH,
25 1975 ANALYSIS, THE USE OF THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS PRODUCED
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1 BY MACAR10, WHICH IS -- WHAT IS IT? A HUNDRED MILLION?
2 CUBIC FEET PER DAY IN LIEU OF THE ALTERNATIVE FUELS HAS A
3 BENEFICIAL EFFECT ON AIR QUALITY. SINCE THE PROJECTED
4 CURTAILMENT FOR 1978 WAS ESTIMATED TO BE TWENTY-NINE AND A
5 HALF MILLION CUBIC FEET PER DAY, OUR ANALYSIS ASSUMED THAT j
I
6 THE ADDITIONAL 71.5, THE BALANCE, WOULD BE UTILIZED FOR
7 OTHER PURPOSES WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL
8 REGION. HOWEVER, THIS WAS DONE PRIMARILY TO SIMPLIFY THE
9 ANALYSIS. COMPARABLE RESULTS FROM AN AIR QUALITY STANDARD
10 POINT WOULD BE REALIZED IF SYNTHETIC GAS WERE MADE AVAILABLE
I] ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THE PREDICTED CURTAILMENT.
12 THE ISSUE THEN BECOMES ONE OF ASSURING THAT ANY
13 REALLOCATION OF MACARIO SNG OUT OF SAN DIEGO DOES NOT EXCEED
14 THAT THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.
15 NOW, ONE OF THE MORE SIGNIFICANT CONCERNS RAISED
16 IN RESPONSE TO OUR MAY 7TH ASSESSMENT WAS THE EFFECTS OF
17 THE REFfNERY ON THE LOCAL AIR QUALITY AND WHAT THE COMBINED
18 EFFECT OF THE REFINERY AND THE ENCINA POWER PLANT WOULD BE.
19 BECAUSE OF THESE CONCERNS, WE UNDERTOOK FURTHER STUDIES AND
20 PERFORMED AIR QUALITY MODELING ANALYSES TO DETERMINE THE
21 EFFECTS. THE RESULTS OF THESE STUDIES AND ANALYSES ARE
22 BEING MADE A PART OF THE RECORD AMD ARE AVAILABLE FOR
23 PUBLIC COMMENT. ' '
24 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL MARK THIS ONE
25 EXHIBIT 12.
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1 MR. COVINGTON: THE MAJOR POLLUTANT FROM THE
2 REFINERY IS 502. THEREFORE, STUDIES AND MODELING WERE
3 CONDUCTED FOR THIS POLLUTANT. MODELING RUNS WERE MADE FOR
4 A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND CONFIGURATIONS.
5 RESULTS OF ALL THE STUDIES INDICATED THAT THERE WILL BE NO
6 LOCALIZED VIOLATIONS OF AIR QUALITY STANDARDS FOR SOX, NOR
7 WILL THE AIR QUALITY INCREMENT, AS DEFINED IN EPA'S
8 REGULATIONS FOR SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATI ON, BE EXCEEDED.
9 NOW, 1 RECOGNIZE THAT WHAT I HAVE JUST GONE
10 THROUGH IS LABORIOUS, IT'S TECHNICAL, IT'S DIFFICULT
11 PERHAPS IN UNDERSTANDING JUST SITTING HERE HEARING IT FOR
12 THE FIRST TIME. RECOGNIZING THIS, AS MR. WALKER SAID, WE
13 WILL RECEIVE TESTIMONY FROM THOSE WERE ARE PREPARED TO GIVE
14 IT NOW, AND WE WILL ULTIMATELY TAKE A BREAK. I HAVE BROUGHT
]5 MY TECHNICAL STAFF WITH ME. WE WILL GO OFF THE RECORD, AND
16 WE WILL DO OUR VERY BEST LATER IN THE MORNING TO TRY TO
17 ANSWER QUESTIONS WHICH MAY VERY WELL BE ON YOUR MIND:
18 "WHAT ASSUMPTIONS? HOW DID YOU DO IT?" AND SO FORTH.
19 BASED UPON TH'E RESULTS OF THE ANALYSES AND THE
20 'ACCOMPANYING ASSUMPTIONS, WE HAVE MADE THE FOLLOWING
21 CONCLUSIONS :
22 FIRST, THE EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY WILL NOT
23 PREVENT OR INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF
24 ANY NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARD EITHER LOCALLY OR
25 REGIONALLY.
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1 SECOND, THE EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY WILL
2 NOT RESULT IN A DETERIORATION OF THE EXISTING AIR QUALITY
3 AS DEFINED IN THE EPA REGULATION FOR SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATI
4 OUR RECOMMENDED ACTION, BASED ON THESE CONCLU-
5 SIONS, IS TO ISSUE AN APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT THE MACAR10
6 REFINERY. THE APPROVAL WOULD BE SUBJECT TO CONDITIONS WHOSE
7 PURPOSE WOULD BE TO INSURE THAT OPERATIONS AT THE REFINERY
8 WILL NOT CAUSE AIR QUALITY VIOLATIONS. TYPICAL TECHNICAL
9 CONDITIONS WHICH WOULD BE INCLUDED ARE COMPLIANCE. WITH
10 STATE .AND LOCAL AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS AND A CONTINGENCY
11 OR SHUT DOWN SITUATION DURING ADVERSE CONDITIONS. STANDARD
12 CONDITIONS WHICH ARE TYPICALLY INCLUDED IN ALL PERMITS
13 GRANTED BY EPA UNDER THESE REGULATIONS REQUIRE RECORD
H KEEPING, NOTIFICATIONS, AND RIGHT OF ACCESS TO INSPECT THE
15 FACILITY AND SO FORTH. FAILURE TO ABIDE BY ANY CONDITION
16 OF OUR APPROVAL WOULD SUBJECT THE COMPANY TO APPROPRIATE
17 ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS AS OUTLINED IN THE CLEAN -AIR ACT.
18 THE GRANTING OF AN APPROVAL BY EPA ON THE BASIS
19 OF THE AIR QUALITY EFFECT DOES NOT INFER APPROVAL AS TO
20 ANY OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS. MACAR10 MUST STILL HAVE
21 APPROVAL FROM THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT
22 REGARDING THEIR FACILITIES AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPROVED
23 PORTIONS OF THE STATE IMPLEMENTATION PLAN, AND ALL OTHER
24 LOCAL REGULATIONS. APPROVALS ALSO MUST BE OBTAINED FROM
25 OTHER AGENCIES SUCH AS THE COASTAL ZONE COMMISSION, THE
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1 REGIONAL WATER QUALITY BOARD, AND SO FORTH TO THE EXTENT
2 OF THEIR AUTHORITY, AS WELL AS THE APPROPRIATE LOCAL ZONING
3 REQUIREMENTS.
4 WE ARE SEEKING YOUR INPUT ON THESE CONCLUSIONS
5 AND PROPOSED ACTION AT TODAY'S HEARING, AND IN WRITING, IF
6 YOU DESIRE. WE WILL BE KEEPING THE RECORD OPEN FOR THE
7 NEXT 30 DAYS. ALL COMMENTS RECEIVED WILL BE CONSIDERED
8 BEFORE MAKING OUR FINAL DECISION.
9 THANK -YOU FOR BEARING WITH US THROUGH THIS LONG
10 EXPLANATION. I HOPE YOU'RE STILL WITH US.
11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.
12 WE ALL APOLOGIZE FOR THE NECESSITY OF HAVING TO MAKE A LONG
13 PRELIMINARY EXPLANATION. AFTER ALL, WE DID COME HERE TO
14 HEAR YOU, NOT FOR YOU TO HEAR US.
15 1 WILL NOW CALL ON MR. KEN SCHULTZ, LEUCADIA
16 TOWN COUNCIL.
17 MR. SCHULTZ: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. WALKER.
18 GOOD MORNING.
19 THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL IS A CIVIC ORGANIZATION
20 DEDICATED TO COMMUNITY IMPROVEMENT IN LEUCADIA, THE TOWN
21 IMMEDIATELY SOUTH OF THE SITE OF THE PROPOSED MACARIO
22 REFINERY. I AM PRESIDENT OF THAT TOWN COUNCIL. WE ARE
23 QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL IMPACTS OF THE PROPOSED
24 REFINERY ON LEUCADIA, AND I WOULD LIKE TO RAISE SOME POINTS
25 CONCERNING THAT THIS MORNING.
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1 IN YOUR TENTATIVE PROPOSAL TO APPROVE' THE
2 REFINERY, YOU CITED FOUR REASONS FOR THIS APPROVAL. WE ARE
3 CONCERNED THAT ALL THE DATA MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED,
4 AND WOULD LIKE TO RAISE SOME POINTS CONCERNING THESE
5 CONCLUSIONS.
6 THE FIRST REASON CITED IS THAT THE NEW EMISSIONS
7 OF CARBON MOM I XIDE, NITROGEN OXIDE, AND SULPHUR DIOXIDE WILL
8 NOT PREVENT MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY
9 STANDARDS IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION. THE
10 DATA SUBMITTED BY MACARIO SEEM TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS FOR
1J THE REFINERY, BUT NO MENTION IS MADE OF OTHER SOURCES
12 ASSOCIATED WITH THE REFINERY. THE REFINERY WILL LEAD TO .A
13 HOST OF OTHER CHEMICAL INDUSTRIES USING REFINERY PRODUCTS
14 AND BY-PRODUCTS. MOST OF THESE WILL LOCATE AT THE ADJACENT
15 PROPOSED JAPATUL INDUSTRIAL PARK, WH1 Chi IS OWED BY SAN DIEGO
16 GAS £ ELECTRIC RIGHT ADJACENT TO THE REFINERY SITE. WE ARE
.17 CONCERNED THAT THE ADDITIVE EFFECTS FROM POLLUTANTS FROM
18 THESE INDUSTRIES WERE NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THESE
19 CONCLUSIONS WERE DRAWN, AND FEEL THESE EFFECTS MUST INDEED
20 BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.
21 THE SECOND REASON CITED FOR TENTATIVE APPROVAL
22 WAS THAT THE AIR QUALITY WOULD BE BETTER, EVEN INCLUDING
23 THE 14 TONS PER DAY OF EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY IF
24 EXISTING INDUSTRY USED LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL FROM THE REFINERY
25 THAN IF THEY USED HIGH-SULPHUR FUEL OIL. THIS WOULD APPEAR
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1 TO ONLY BE THE CASE IF THE PRODUCTS OF THE REFINERY WERE
2 ONLY USED WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. AND YOU MENTIONED
3 IN YOUR PREAMBLE HERE THIS MORNING THAT YOU HAVE NO MEANS
4 OF ENFORCING THIS USE. IF GUARANTEES ARE NOT OBTAINED THAT
5 THE REFINERY PRODUCTS WOULD BE USED IN THE SAN DIEGO. AIR
6 QUALITY AREA, THEN IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE REFINERY WOULD
7 DEFINITELY INCREASE AIR POLLUTION IN THIS AREA.
8 . THE THIRD REASON GIVEN IS THAT THE CARLSBAD
9 REFINERY IS NEEDED TO PROVIDE LOW-SULPHUR OIL TO THIS
10 REGION. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THIS PROPOSED -- THERE ARE
11 REALLY ONLY TWO OPTIONS. FIRST IS THE USE OF LOW-SULPHUR
12 OIL REFINED AT THE CARLSBAD REFINERY, OR THE USE OF HIGH-
13 SULPHUR FUEL OIL. IN FACT, I WOULD THINK THERE IS A THIRD
14 OPTION: THAT IS, THE USE OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL REFINED
15 ELSEWHERE.
16 WE ARE TOLD BY MOVING THE PROPOSED REFINERY
17 SOMEWHAT DIRECTLY TO THE EAST WE COULD GET IT UP OUT OF THE
'18 SAN DIE-GO COASTAL AIR BASIN, WHICH HAS FREQUENT INVERSIONS,
19 WHICH WOULD THEN MITIGATE SEVERAL OF THE AIR POLLUTION
20 IMPACTS OF THE REFINERY. WE ARE CONCERNED THAT THE LOCATION
21 OF THE REFINERY PERHAPS IN THE SAN DIEGO BUT OUT OF THE
22 COASTAL AIR BASIN WAS NOT CONSIDERED, AND FEEL IT SHOULD BE
23 AS AN OPTION.
24 THE FOURTH AND FINAL REASON GIVEN FOR TENTATIVE
25 APPROVAL OF THE REFINERY WAS, AGAIN, THAT THE PROJECT WOULD
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NOT PREVENT MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY I
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STANDARDS IN THE AREA, AND WE ARE CONCERNED THAT ALL THE j
IMPACTS OF THIS PROJECT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED. WAS
CONSIDERATION GIVEN, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE EMISSIONS FROM
THE WORKERS' VEHICLES, THE MATERIAL TRANSPORT ASSOCIATED
WITH THE REFINERY AND ITS SURROUNDING PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES
AND WERE INCREASED EMISSIONS FROM THE INCREASED INDUSTRIAL
DEVELOPMENT THAT THE REFINERY WOULD DRAW TAKEN INTO CONSI-
DERATION? WE FEEL THAT ALL ASPECTS MUST BE INCLUDED AND NOT
JUST THOSE THINGS COMING DIRECTLY OUT OF THE REFINERY STACKS.
THE TOWN COUNCIL IS QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE
•CONSEQUENCES OF APPROVAL OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY. WE WOULD
APPRECIATE YOUR CONSIDERATION AND RESPONSE TO THESE POINTS
AND QUESTIONS WE HAVE RAISED.
THANK YOU.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. SCHULTZ.
(APPLAUSE)
MR. SCHULTZ, MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME QUESTIONS
IF YOU WOULD REMAIN AT THE PODIUM FOR A MINUTE.
MR. SCHULTZ: THANK YOU.
MR. COVINGTON: MR. SCHULTZ, CAN YOU GIVE us A
LITTLE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION? CAN YOU TELL ME AGAIN: IS
THE INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT WE'RE CONCERNED WITH WITHIN YOUR
CITY LIMITS, OR IS THAT SOME --
MR. SCHULTZ: LEUCADIA IS.NOT AN INCORPORATED
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1 AREA. WE ARE AN UNINCORPORATED TOWN WITHIN THE CITY OF
2 SAN DIEGO. WE ARE THE CLOSEST COMMUNITY TO THE REFINERY
3 WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CARLSBAD, WHICH I BELIEVE SURROUNDS
4 THE INCORPORATED AREA THAT THE REFINERY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN.
5 MR. COVINGTON: ALL RIGHT. IS THE INDUSTRIAL
6 PARK AREA THAT YOU REFERRED TO IN AN UNINCORPORATED PORTION
7 OF THE COUNTY?
8 MR. SCHULTZ: YES, THAT IS CORRECT.
9 MR. COVINGTON: AND, THEREFORE, SUBJECT TO THEIR
10 ZONING AND GENERAL PLAN?
I] MR. SCHULTZ: TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE.
12 MR. COVINGTON: DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE AT
13 ALL AS TO WHAT THAT GENERAL PLAN CALLS FOR, THE TYPE OF
14 DEVELOPMENT THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED OR POSSIBLE THERE?
15 MR. SCHULTZ: IT is MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE
16 PLAN DESIGNATION FOR THE REFINERY -- OR PROPOSED REFINERY
17 AND INDUSTRIAL PARK AREA IS PRESENTLY LIGHT INDUSTRIAL.
18 MR. COVINGTON: CAN 1 ASSUME -- PERHAPS I'M
19 GOING BEYOND YOUR EXPERTISE AND KNOWLEDGE. WOULD THAT
20 EXCLUDE --
2i MR. SCHULTZ: IT'S MY IMPRESSIONS THAT WOULD
22 EXCLUDE THE REFINERY, BUT'IT APPEARS TO BE -- DOES NOT
23 APPEAR TO BE A CONSIDERATION GIVEN RIGHT NOW.
24 MR. COVINGTON: OKAY. THAT'S ALL 1 NEED AT
25 THIS MOMENT. THANK YOU.
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1 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, SIR.
2 IN AN EFFORT TO FOLLOW OUR SCHEDULE, I'M GOING
3 TO DEPART FROM IT SOMEWHAT BECAUSE THE REFINERY DOES HAVE
4 SOME INTEREST IN THIS HEARING. I WILL FOR THE PURPOSE OF
5 THIS HEARING AT THIS TIME CALL ON MR. BRUCE BEAN.
6 MR. BEAN: WE'RE GOING TO USE THE VIEWGRAPH.
7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: MR. BEAN, DO YOU HAVE COPIES
8 OF THE VIEWGRAPHS FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE DAIS?
9 MR. BEAN: I DO NOT NOW, BUT I WILL HAVE IN MY
10 WRITTEN TESTIMONY.
11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU'RE GOING TO SUBMIT WRITTEN
12 TESTIMONY?
13 MR. BEAN: YES. I'LL HAVE TO DO THAT LATER. 1
14 DON'T HAVE IT WITH ME.
15 CHAIRMAN WALKER: FOR THE SAKE OF THE RECORD, 1
16 WANT TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE GOING TO GET THE VIEW-
17 GRAPHS IN AS PART OF THE HEARING RECORD.
18 MR. BEAN: NOT TODAY, BUT YOU WILL GET THEM.
19 [ CAN MAKE THEM TODAY IF YOU WANT TO HAVE THEM AVAILABLE
20 FOR THIS AFTERNOON.
21 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WOULD LIKE THAT SO WE
22 COULD HAVE A COMPLETE HEARING RECORD.
23 MR. BEAN: FINE.
24 GENTLEMEN, I'M BRUCE BEAN, MANAGER OF MACAR10
25 INDEPENDENT REFINERY COMPANY, WITH OFFICES AT 5350 AVENIDA
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1 ENC1NAS, CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA.
2 I WILL KEEP MY PRESENTATION BRIEF. HOWEVER, I
3 WANT TO COVER THE PURPOSE OF THE MACAR10 PROJECT AND WHY
4 THE PROPOSED SITE WAS SELECTED, AND A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE
5 PROJECT AND THE BASIS FOR THE AIR EMISSIONS AND THE EXTENT
6 AND THE RESULTS OF OUR METEOROLOGICAL STUDIES.
7 THE PURPOSE OF THE PROJECT IS BASICALLY TO
8 PROVIDE A MORE SECURE SOURCE OF CLEAN LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL
9 FOR THE SAN DIEGO AREA. THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO THE REGULA-
10 TIONS WHICH ARE PUT OUT BY THE APCD AND THE EPA REQUIRING
11 THE USE OF THESE FUELS IN ORDER TO KEEP OUR AIR CLEAN. THE
12 REGULATIONS PROVIDE FOR THE FUELS TO BE USED BUT THEY DON'T
13 PROVIDE FOR THE FUELS TO BE PRODUCED.
]4 THE MORE IMPORTANT IT IS TO MAINTAIN'OUR AIR
15 QUALITY, THE MORE IMPORTANT IT IS TO HAVE THOSE CLEAN FUELS
16 AVAILABLE. NATURAL GAS IS IN SHORT SUPPLY, AS.YOU CAN SEE
17 IN THIS GRAPH THERE ON MY -- ON YOUR RIGHT. PERHAPS YOU
18 CAN SEE. THE GRAPH ON THE TOP SHOWS THE DECLINING AVA1L-
19 ABILITY OF. NATURAL GAS FOR POWER PLANT ELECTRICAL GENERATION,
20 AND THE GRAPH AT THE BOTTOM SHOWS THE INCREASING REQUIREMENTS
21 FOR NATURAL GAS -- FOR RESIDUAL FUEL OIL, LOW-SULPHUR
22 RESIDUAL FUEL OIL AS NATURAL GAS PHASES OUT.
23 THIS HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT FREQUENTLY IN THE
.24 NEWSPAPERS NOW. I DON'T THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE ANY FURTHER
25 DISCUSSION OF THAT. THE CURRENT SUPPLY OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL
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OIL IS IN SHORT SUPPLY.
CURRENTLY, SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC IS SUPPLIED
FROM TWO REFINERIES. ONE IS IN HAWAII. ONE BELONGS TO
PACIFIC RESOURCES, ONE OF THE JOINT VENTURERS IN THIS MACARIO
OPERATION. THE OTHER ONE BELONGS TO TOSORO UP IN ALASKA.
BOTH OF THOSE REFINERIES OPERATE ON LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE.
I'M SURE YOU CAN'T SEE THAT SLIDE OVER THERE,
BUT WHAT WE'RE ATTEMPTING TO DEMONSTRATE IS THAT THE
REFINERIES THAT ARE IN EXISTENCE NOW PRODUCE LOW-SULPHUR
FUELS FROM LOW-SULPHUR CRUDES.. LOW-SULPHUR CRUDES AMOUNT
TO SOMETHING LIKE 14 PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S SUPPLY OF CRUDE.
HAS A LOW-SULPHUR CONTENT. IF YOU COULD SEE THAT SLIDE,
YOU WOULD SEE THAT U. S. REFINERIES PROCESS -- OR THE CRUDES
THAT ARE USED BY U. S. REFINERIES ARE 63 PERCENT LOW-SULPHUR
CRUDES. IN OTHER WORDS, WE ARE PROCESSING MOST OF OUR
PRODUCTS ONLY FROM A LIMITED PORTION OF OUR CRUDE SUPPLY.
IN ORDER TO REMEDY THIS SITUATION AS WE COME TO
A CRUDE SHORTAGE SITUATION IN THE WORLD, WE HAVE TO GO TO
A NEW KIND OF REFINERY. OUR REFINERY IN HAWAII, THE HAWAIIAN
INDEPENDENT REFINERY, AND ALSO THE REFINERY IN ALASKA, DO NOT
HAVE FACILITIES TO DESULPHURIZE CRUDE OILS. THE ALASKAN
CRUDE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WAS FOUND IN THE ALASKA NORTH SLOPE
IS NOT A LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE. IT HAS A SULPHUR CONTENT IN THE
.VICINITY OF ONE PERCENT.
THE NEW DESULPHURIZING TYPE OF REFINERY THAT WE
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PROPOSE FOR HERE, THE SCHEME IS SHOWN ON THIS DIAGRAM.
BASICALLY, IT'S A REFINERY VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE HAVE IN
HAWAII EXCEPT WE HAVE ADDED DESULPHURIZATI ON UNITS IN WHICH
WE CAN ACTUALLY REMOVE THE SULPHUR FROM THE PRODUCTS. THESE
NEW FACILITIES ARE NOT SIMPLE. THEY ARE EXTENSIVE. THEY
ARE NOT ALTOGETHER NEW. THERE ARE NEW UNITS OF THIS TYPE
•BUILT. THERE IS A COMPLETE UNIT OF THIS TYPE BUILT AND
OPERATING. IN JAPAN. THERE IS ONE BEING BUILT IN LOS ANGELES
BY STANDARD OIL OF CALIFORNIA TO SUPPLY THE LOS ANGELES AREA.
BUT THEY ARE RELATIVELY NEW IN THE REFINERY SCENE.
THIS IS NOT A TYPICAL REFINERY BY ANY STRETCH
OF THE IMAGINATION. TYPICALLY, A U. S. REFINERY IS BUILT TO
MAKE GASOLINE. ABOUT 50 PERCENT OF ITS PRODUCT COMES OUT IN
GASOLINE, MUCH OF THE REST COMES OUT IN DIESEL OIL, AND THE
LITTLE BIT THAT COMES OUT AT THE BOTTOM USUALLY HAS A
HIGH-SULPHUR CONTENT, AND THEY USE IT FOR BUNKER FUEL IN
SHIPS. AND IF THEY CAN'T FIND ENOUGH SHIPS TO TAKE THE
STUFF AWAY, THEN THEY COKE IT, TURN IT INTO COKE. MOST OF
THE REFINERIES UP IN LOS ANGELES, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE THE
ABILITY TO TURN THE RESIDUAL INTO COKE. IT IS ONLY A FEW-
REFINERIES THAT HAVE AVAILABLE OR MAKE AVAILABLE LOW-SULPHUR
FUEL THAT CAN MAKE THE LOW-SULPHUR OIL THAT WE USE IN OUR
UTILITIES TODAY.
WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE NEED NEW FACILITIES AND
WE THINK THOSE NEW FACILITIES SHOULD BE BUILT WHERE THE LOAD
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1 IS. IN THIS CASE, IN SAN DIEGO. NOW, WE'RE PROPOSING THIS
2 REFINERY BE BUILT IN SAN DIEGO TO SERVE THE SAN DIEGO MARKET.
3 THE SITE SELECTED, AS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTO -- JANE MAYBE CAN
4 POINT OUT THE ACTUAL SITE. THIS IS AN 855-ACRE SITE THAT
5 BELONGS TO THE JAPATUL CORPORAT1 ON, A SUBSIDIARY OF SAN
6 DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC. WE PROPOSE TO USE THE CENTER 300 ACRES
7 OF THAT FOR OUR REFINERY. THAT'S IN A CA-NYON AREA WHICH IS
8 NOT VISIBLE FROM ANY OF THE SURROUNDING ROADS. THERE IS A
9 SKETCH THERE WHICH SHOWS WHY WE CHOSE THIS SITE. CERTAINLY
10 .CARLSBAD DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE REFINERY CENTER OF THE WORLD --
]| THAT'S UPSIDE DOWN OR BACKWARDS OR SOMETHING. IT LOOKS LIKE
12 IT'S UPSIDE DOWN. MAYBE IT ISN'T. 1 GUESS IT ISN'T. I'M
13 UPSIDE DOWN, I GUESS.
14 THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS WHY CARLSBAD WAS CHOSEN.
15 IT'S A VERY GOOD LOCATION FOR A REFINERY. IN FACT, WE
16 SEARCHED UP AND DOWN THE COAST. WE SUPPLY OTHER UTILITIES
17 BESIDES SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC, AND WE SEARCHED FOR OTHER
18 REFINERY SITES UP AND DOWN THE COAST, AND THIS, I CAN SAY,
19 IS THE BEST REFINERY SITE WE FOUND.
20 FIRST, YOU HAVE A MOORING OFFSHORE OF THE ENCINA
21 POWER PLANT WHICH WILL TAKE A TANKER 70- TO 80,000 DEAD
22 WEIGHT TON CAPACITY. THERE'S NO MOORINGS SOUTH OF
23 HUNTINGTON BEACH UP IN LOS ANGELES NOR NORTH OF ROSARITA
24 BEACH WHICH WILL TAKE A SHIP OF THAT SIZE. YOU NEED A SHIP
25 OF ABOUT THAT SIZE IN ORDER TO SUPPLY A REFINERY THE' SI ZE
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1 WE NEED TO BUILD.
2 SECONDLY, THE ENCINA POWER PLANT IS RIGHT THERE,
3 AND IT IS ONE OF THE TWO BIGGEST USERS OF RESIDUAL FUEL IN
4 SAN DIEGO COUNTY. THE OTHER USER IS THE SOUTH BAY POWER
5 PLANT AND, OF COURSE, IT DOESN'T HAVE THE OFF-SHORE MOORING.
6 RIGHT NOW THE FUEL OIL THAT COMES IN FROM THE HAWAIIAN
7 INDEPENDENT REFINERY IN HAWAII IS DELIVERED IN 70- TO 80,000
8 DEAD-WEIGHT TANKERS AT THE ENCINA MOORING. THE OIL IS PUT
9 ASHORE, AND WHAT IS NEEDED DOWN AT SOUTH BAY IS TRANSFERRED
10 BY SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC BY BARGE DOWN TO SOUTH BAY.
11 IN ADDITION TO THOSE TWO FEATURES THERE, WHICH
12 MEANS YOU HAVE A MARKET FOR A LARGE PORTION OF THE FUEL
13 RIGHT ADJACENT TO THE SITE, THERE'S THE SAN DIEGO PIPELINE
14 WHICH RUNS IN EL CAMINO REAL, THE DASH-ED LINE. THIS IS A
15 CLEAN PRODUCTS PIPELINE WHICH MOVES FUEL FROM THE LOS
16 ANGELES REFINERIES TO SAN DIEGO. THIS CARRIES ALL YOUR
17 GASOLINES AND JET FUELS DOWN TO THE TERMINAL IN MISSION
18 VALLEY FROM WHICH IT'S DISPENSED.
19 IN ADDITION TO THAT, THERE'S A NATURAL GAS
20 PIPELINE, A 30-INCH NATURAL GAS PIPELINE. THIS IS THE
21 PRIMARY TRANSMISSION LINE THAT BRINGS THE GAS FROM THE
22 LOS ANGELES AREA WHICH, OF COURSE, ORIGINALLY COMES FROM
23 TEXAS, OKLAHOMA INTO THE SAN DIEGO AREA. THIS MEANS THAT
24 WE CAN INJECT BOTH OUR DISTILLATE PRODUCTS TO GET THEM DOWN
25 .TO SAN DIEGO AND OUR NATURAL GAS INTO THOSE TWO PIPELINES.
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1 AGAIN, IF WE WERE DOWN ON THE OTHER SIDE OF SAN DJEGO, IF
2 WE WERE SOUTH OF SAN DIEGO, WE WOULD HAVE TO BUILD NEW
3 PIPELINES BACK UP INTO SAN DIEGO.
4 IN ADDITION TO THOSE FEATURES, THE SITE ITSELF
5 IS ISOLATED. THERE'S AN 855-ACRE PARCEL THAT'S OWNED BY
6 SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC. IT'S SHIELDED BY HILLS ON EITHER
1 SIDE SO IT CAN'T BE SEEN FROM THE LOCAL AREA. THERE'S AN
8 AIRPORT THERE WHICH PUTS A NOISE IMPACT ON THE LOCAL PROPERTY
9 AND SO FORTH.
10 LET ME GO ON TO THE EMISSIONS. YOU CAN TURN
11 THAT OFF. THE EMISSIONS ESTIMATE ARE BASED UPON THE PROCESS
12 SCHEME THAT I HAVE DESCRIBED, WHICH IS A FUEL OIL REFINERY,
13 NOT A GASOLINE REFINERY. THE EMISSIONS ARE LARGELY RELATED
14 TO THE FUEL SUPPLY TO THE REFINERY ITSELF, SINCE THE
15 EMISSIONS ARE BASICALLY FLUE GASES WHICH ARE THE RESULT OF
16 ANY COMBUSTION OPERATION. WE ASSUME IN OUR CALCULATIONS
17 WE WOULD USE THE SAME - LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL THAT WE WOULD
18 SUPPLY TO SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC, THAT BEING THE HIGHEST
19 SULPHUR CONTENT ALLOWED BY THE LAW IN -- OR THE APCD REGULA-
20 TIONS IN SAN DIEGO.
21 WE ALSO BASE THOSE CALCULATIONS, OF COURSE, ON
22 EMISSION FACTORS WHICH ARE TAKEN FROM EPA REGULATIONS. I
23 THINK IT'S INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THOSE EPA MANUALS, I
24 SHOULD HAVE SAID, THOSE EPA MANUALS ARE BASED UPON DATA
25 THAT WAS GATHERED ON REFINERIES THAT WERE BUILT IN 1950 OR
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32
1 WERE IN OPERATION IN 1957 AND '58. .IN OTHER WORDS, THE
2 STUDIES ON WHICH THESE EMISSION FACTORS ARE BASED WERE DONE
I IN 1957, '58, ON EXISTING REFINERIES IN LOS ANGELES, WHICH
4 MEANS THE REFINERIES THEMSELVES MAY BE 40 TO 50 YEARS OLD
5 AT THIS POINT.
6 NOW, WE HAD TO DEPART FROM THAT, OF COURSE,
7 IN CERTAIN CASES WHERE WE HAD PROCESSES THAT ARE NOT -- WERE
8 NOT IN EXISTENCE AT THAT TIME. BUT, BASICALLY, THE EMISSION
9 FACTORS THAT WE'RE USING ARE BASED ON THE TECHNOLOGY THAT
10 WAS AVAILABLE 20 TO 30 YEARS AGO. THEREFORE, IT'S VERY
11 CONSERVATIVE.
12 WE RECOGNIZE THAT THE AIR QUALITY WOULD BE A
13. MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, AND WE ENGAGED A CONSULTANT, METEOROLOGY
14 RESEARCH, INCORPORATED, FROM PASADENA TO DO OUR METEOROLOGICAL
15 WORK. IN THAT WE CONDUCTED SOME THREE YEARS OF METEOROLOGICAL
16 DATA FROM THE PALOMAR AIRPORT.
17 WE CONDUCTED RADIOSONDE AND. INSTRUMENTED AIRCRAFT
18 STUDIES. WE HAD SOME 29 FLIGHTS OUT OF PALOMAR AIRPORT
19 TRYING TO CHASE DOWN THE PLUME FROM THE ENC1NA POWER PLANT
20 AND MEASURE THE INVERSION HEIGHTS AND HOW THEY VARIED
21 THROUGHOUT THE DAY AND THIS SORT OF THING.
22 WE SET OUT A NETWORK OF SULPHATION PLATES TO
23 MEASURE THE EXISTING LEVELS OF SULPHUR D-I OX I DE IN THE AIR.
24 WE ALSO HAD OUR CONSULTANT CONDUCT EXTENSIVE COMPUTER
25 ANALYSIS OF THIS DATA TO DETERMINE THE EFFECT OF THE PROJECT
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] ON AMBIENT AIR CONCENTRATIONS.
2 . OUR CONSULTANT CONCLUDED THAT THE PROJECT WOULD
3, NOT VIOLATE ANY OF THE AIR QUALITY STANDARDS, AND IT'S OUR
4 UNDERSTANDING THAT THE EPA BY INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS HAS COME
5 TO THIS SAME CONCLUSION. THE CONCLUSION IS WE WON'T VIOLATE
6 THE EMISSIONS STANDARDS, WE WON'T VIOLATE THE AMBIENT 'AIR
7 QUALITY STANDARDS, AND WE WON'T VIOLATE THE SIGNIFICANT
8 DETERIORATION STANDARDS. AND WITH THIS CONFIRMATION, WE
9 DON'T SEE'ANY REASON WHY THE AUTHORITY TO CONSTRUCT PERMIT
10 SHOULD NOT BE ISSUED.
11 THANK YOU.-
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 CHAIRMAN: THANK YOU, MR. BEAN.
14 I THINK MR. COVINGTON HAS" SOME QUESTIONS.
15 MR. COVINGTON: MR. BEAN, AS YOU ARE AWARE,
16 WE HAVE HAD TO MAKE CERTAIN ASSUMPTIONS IN CARRYING OUT OUR
17 ANALYSES. I'M GOING TO ASK ESPECIALLY AS TO THE USE OF
18 THE PRODUCT, THE CLEAN FUELS. AND IN THAT CONTEXT, 1 WOULD
19 LIKE TO EXPLORE TWO OR THREE ISSUES WITH YOU.
20 WHAT CONTRACTUAL ARRANGEMENTS NOW EXIST WITH
21 RESPECT TO THE ULTIMATE USE OF THE PRODUCT?
22 MR. BEAN: PACIFIC RESOURCES IS A SUPPLIER TO
23 SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC. AND AS A SUPPLIER THEY HAVE
24 A.LONG-RANGE CONTRACT TO SUPPLY.
25 MR. COVINGTON: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "LONG RANGE"?
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1 MR. BEAN: SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF FIVE TO
2 TEN YEARS TO SUPPLY.
3 MR. COVINGTON: HOW MUCH AND OF WHAT KIND OF
4 PRODUCT?
5 . MR. BEAN: BASICALLY RESIDUAL FUEL OIL. AND
6 THE TIME FRAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HAVING THIS REFINERY
7 COMPLETE, OUR CONTRACT CALLS FOR SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OR
8 29- TO 30,000 BARRELS A DAY OF RESIDUAL FUEL. THAT'S MY
9 RECOLLECTION. THAT CAN BE TRANSFERRED TO THIS REFINERY.
]0 ASIDE FROM THAT, WE HAVE NO REFINERY, WE HAVE NO PERMITS,
n WE HAVE NO PRODUCTS, AND WE CAN'T CONTRACT TO SELL SOMETHING
12 WE DON' T HAVE .
13 MR. COVINGTON: I WANTED TO GET INTO IT AS FAR
14 AS AT LEAST THE CORPORATE THINKING HAS GONE SO WE HAVE SOME
15 INDICATION OF THE VALIDITY OF OUR ASSUMPTION.
16 MR. BEAN: I MIGHT ADD ON THAT: THE MARKET
17 ANALYSIS 1S DONE TO SUPPLY THE SAN DIEGO MARKET. THAT'S
]g THE REASON THAT WE'RE BUILDING THE REFINERY IN THE SAN DIEGO
19 AREA. THERE'S NO SIGNIFICANT MEANS OF TRANSFERRING PRODUCTS
20 OUT OF THE SAN DIEGO AREA. IT'S NOT LIKE LOS ANGELES, FOR
2i EXAMPLE, WHERE YOU HAVE A DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, WHERE YOU
22 COULD MOVE PRODUCTS OUT. WE OBVIOUSLY INTEND TO SUPPLY THE
23 SAN DIEGO MARKET. HOWEVER, IN A FREE ECONOMY YOU CAN'T --
24 UNTIL YOU HAVE A CONTRACT SIGNED YOU CAN'T SAY WHAT YOU'RE
25 GOING TO DO EXACTLY.
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35
1
MR. COV1NGTON: GOING A LITTLE BIT FURTHER:
BECAUSE OF THE ROLE THAT THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION
PLAYS WITH RESPECT TO THE ALLOCATION OF CRUDE, HAVE YOU
ENGAGED IN ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH THEM? AND WHAT GUIDANCE
OR ADVICE HAVE YOU RECEIVED FROM THEM AS TO THE LIKELIHOOD
OF ALLOCATION OF CRUDE FOR PURPOSES OF PRODUCING SYNTHETIC
GAS?
MR. BEAN: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE WOULDN'T USE
CRUDE TO PRODUCE OUR SYNTHETIC GAS. WE PRODUCE NAPTHA. AND
AS I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE, THE ALLOCATION PROGRAM IS A VERY
DIFFICULT AND VERY COMPLICATED SUBJECT. AS A MATTER OF FACT,
I'M SURE YOU'RE ALSO AWARE THE WHOLE ALLOCATION ACTS RUNS
OUT IN ONE WEEK, AND THE PRESIDENT SAYS HE'S GOING TO VETO
IT, SO 1 REALLY THINK -- I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO SAY
ABOUT THAT. WE HAVE SOME PRELIMINARY THOUGHTS ON FUEL STOCK
ALLOCATION. WE THINK THIS IS THE BEST USE FOR NAPTHA IN THIS
AREA. WE HAVE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY TALKS WITH VARIOUS FEA
OFFICIALS. WE HAVE NOTHING FIRM.
THE USES FOR NAPTHA GENERALLY BOIL DOWN TO JP't,
WHICH IS AN AIR FORCE JET FUEL, WHICH WE HAVE NO USE FOR
HERE IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, GASOLINE, WHICH. IS THE LOWEST
PRIORITY PRODUCT AS FAR AS THE FEA IS CONCERNED. AS FAR
AS THE FEA PRODUCTION OF GASOLINE, IT IS THE LOWEST PRIORITY
THING YOU CAN DO WITH NAPTHA. ANOTHER USE FOR IT WOULD BE
PETROCHEMICAL MANUFACTURE, WHICH WE HAVE NO SIGNIFICANT
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I MARKET HERE IN SAN DIEGO. THIS LEAVES. US BASICALLY WITH
2 SYNTHETIC GAS. WE THINK THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT MARKET AND
3 A GOOD USE FOR IT FOR THAT PURPOSE.
4 MR. COV1NGTON: DO YOU HAVE ANY PRELIMINARY FEEL
5 FROM THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION ABOUT THE ALLOCATION
6 OF THAT SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT WOULD BE PRODUCED?
i MR. BEAN: IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PUBLIC
8 UTILITIES COMMISSION DOES NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO ALLOCATE
^9 THAT GAS OUTSIDE OF THE SAN DIEGO AREA AT THIS TIME.
10 MR. COVINGTON- CAN YOU COMMENT ON OR .ELABORATE
11 OR CLARIFY THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE EARLIER SPEAKER, MR.
12 SCHULTZ, WITH REGARD TO HIS CONCERN THAT THE PRESENCE OF
13 THE REFINERY WOULD ATTRACT SATELLITE INDUSTRIES? DO YOU
14 HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO THAT ISSUE?
15 MR. BEAN: WELL, I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE
16 TO RECOGNIZE THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF A REFINERY THAN
17 A NORMAL L.A.-TYPE REFINERY, FOR EXAMPLE. WE'RE TALKING
18 ABOUT A FUEL OIL REFINERY THAT IS DESIGNED TO SUPPLY UTILITY
19 FUELS, BASICALLY. THAT'S OUR PRIMARY PRODUCT, IS UTILITY
20 FUELS. THIS HAS BEEN OUR EXPERIENCE IN HAWAII, WHERE WE
21 BUILT -- THERE THE REFINERY WAS BUILT BY THE HONOLULU GAS
22 COMPANY, WHICH LATER GREW INTO PACIFIC RESOURCES. AND THERE
23 IT SUPPLIES ITS PRODUCT TO UTILITIES. IN FACT, IT IS THE
24 REFINERY THAT SUPPLIES THE MAJOR PORTION OF FUEL FOR SAN
25 DIEGO ITSELF. FROM THAT ASPECT, THESE FUELS AREN'T SUITABLE
j
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1 FOR PERHAPS OTHER USES. j
(
i
2 AS FAR AS OTHER INDUSTRIES, FUEL-USING INDUSTRIES,)
I
3 SPROUTING UP, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE VICINITY OF THE REFINERY,
4 1 DON'T REALLY -- WE'RE NOT PLANNING ON THAT. CERTAINLY
5 THE EPA AND THE LOCAL ZONING AUTHORITIES WOULD HAVE AUTHORITY
6 OVER THAT. THERE IS A FUEL PIPELINE THAT GOES RIGHT BY THAT
7 PROPERTY NOW, HAULING OVER 50,000 BARRELS A DAY OF LIGHT
8 PRODUCTS. IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO BUILD A FUEL-USING INDUSTRY,
9. THEY COULD HAVE BUILT IT A LONG TIME AGO.
10 MR. COVINGTON: WHAT ARE THE PROSPECTS FOR
|] SIGNIFICANT EXPANSION OF THE REFINERY CAPACITY OR CHANGE IN
12 THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE OUTPUT GIVEN YOUR PRESENT SITE
j3 LOCATION AND SO FORTH?
14 MR. BEAN: WELL, THE SITE IS B-l G ENOUGH TO
15 SUPPORT EXPANSION. HOWEVER, OUR VIEW OF THIS AT THIS TIME
16 IS THAT OIL IS IN THE POSITION OF HOLDING — MEETING OUR
17 ENERGY REQUIREMENTS IN A RELATIVELY SHORT TIME. BY THAT
18 I MEAN THROUGH THE END OF THE CENTURY, PERHAPS. IN THAT
19 LIGHT, WE DON'T -- WE SEE OIL PEEKING OUT AS NUCLEAR PLANTS
20 AND OTHER TYPES OF FACILITIES, PERHAPS, COME ON THAT CAN
21 CARRY THIS LOAD. BASICALLY HAVING NO NATIONAL ENERGY POLICY,
22 IT'S HARD TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION, AS WE SEE IT. OIL WILL
23 HAVE TO PEAK OUT. IN THAT RESPECT, WE DON'T SEE THIS AS
24 AN EXPANDING REFINERY.
25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. BEAN. •
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1 1 WILL NOW CALL ON MR. GEORGE W. JONES REPRE-
2 SENT1NG HIMSELF.
3 MR. JONES: AS A COINCIDENCE, YOU HAVE THE
4 SAME THING 1 HAVE AS A MIDDLE NAME, WALKER. BUT WELCOME.
5 'I'M JUST AN AVERAGE PEON, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF
6 THINGS THAT ARE SAID PRO AND CON ON, THIS OIL REFINERY. I'M
7 NOT REALLY ACCUSTOMED TO MAKING PUBLIC SPEECHES AND WHAT
8 HAVE YOU, BUT MY VIEW OF THE THING IS THERE IS -- WELL, I'M
9 A PIPEFITTER WITH THE PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS LOCAL, AND
10 I'VE SAT DOWN THERE ON THE OUT-OF-WORK LIST FOR A PERIOD OF
11 FOUR MONTHS LAST YEAR, AND THERE'S BEEN UPWARDS OF 200 MEN
12 OUT OF WORK. THERE'S STILL PROBABLY 150 OF THOSE MEN STILL
13 WAITING FOR A JOB.
H IF EVERYBODY'S GOT MONEY, I WOULD BE GLAD, IT
15 WOULD BE GOOD, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT NEED WORK.
16 AND AS LONG AS THIS ENVIRONMENTAL THING THAT YOU HAVE HERE
17 IS WITHIN THE REALM OF YOUR LUNGS, I MEAN, FOR THE FUTURE,
18 I THINK IT'S GOOD.
19 BACK IN MY DAY--I'M A LITTLE OLDER THAN A LOT
20 OF THESE PEOPLE IN HERE. I CAME FROM ST. LOUIS. IN THE
21 AFTERNOON IT WOULD BE SO DARK YOU COULDN'T HARDLY SEE.
22 THAT'S WHEN THEY HAD SMOKELESS COAL. THE ENVIRONMENTAL
23 THING HAS COME A LONG WAYS FROM THEN. A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE
24 THINK IT'S BAD IF YOU PUT A LITTLE GAS OR SOMETHING OUT OF
25 THEIR EXHAUST, BUT THEN YOU COULD HARDLY BREATHE, SO I THINK
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39
1 THE PEOPLE WILL PROGRESS TO THE THING THAT IS FOR THE
2 BETTER OF MANKIND, AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS A
3 PERSON HAS TO LOOK AT, TOO, IS THAT YOU HAVE TO WORK, YOU
4 HAVE TO MAKE -- WHAT IF YOU HAVE THE CLEANEST LUNGS IN THE
5 WORLD AND YOU HAVE NOTHING IN YOUR STOMACH?
6 (APPLAUSE)
7 I THINK YOU PEOPLE HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB AND IT'S
8 GOOD, BUT THERE IS SOME THINGS THAT NEED HELP, TOO. 1 MEAN,
9 PEOPLE CAN GO OVERBOARD ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. WELL, I CAN
10 SEE THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE LIVED IN THE AREA -- NATURALLY A
]] LOT OF THEM ARE RETIRED PEOPLE AND THEY DON'T CARE IF ANYONE
12 WORKS OR DON'T (CRIES OF BOO). ACTUALLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL
13 THAT WAY.
14 CHAIRMAN WALKER: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MAY I
15 INTERRUPT HERE? WE CAME DOWN HERE FROM SAN FRANCISCO TO
16 HEAR ALL OF YOU. WE'RE QUITE SURE EVERYONE FEELS VERY
17 STRONGLY. WE WOULD APPRECIATE IF YOU WOULD KEEP THE
18 DEMONSTRATIONS TO A MINIMUM. WE UNDERSTAND HOW YOU FEEL.
19 WE UNDERSTAND EVERYONE FEELS STRONGLY. WE ASSUMED THAT.
20 MR. JONES: I'M GLAD THEY FEEL THAT WAY. THAT'S
21 ALL I HAVE TO SAY. THANK YOU.
22 (APPLAUSE)
23 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 NOW CALL ON MR. RICH
24 SOMMERVILLE.
25 MR. SOMMERVILLE: MY NAME IS.RICH SOMMERVILLE.
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1 1 AM WITH THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT.
2 WE HAVE A TRANSPARENCY, AND I WILL GIVE THE
3 CHAIR A COPY OF THAT.
4 I HAVE ALL SORTS OF LITTLE NOTES TRYING TO
5 RESPOND TO CERTAIN THINGS THAT CAME UP DURING THE TESTIMONY.
6 I'LL TRY TO KEEP IT BRIEF.
7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT MICROPHONE IS PRETTY
8 DIRECTIONAL. YOU HAVE TO TALK RIGHT INTO IT.
9 MR. SOMMERVILLE: LET'S DO IT THIS WAY, THEN..
JO AS A LITTLE BACKGROUND, THE EPA HAS INDICATED
jl THAT THE REASON THEY'RE HERE IS BECAUSE THE LOCAL DISTRICTS
12 IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WERE UNABLE TO COME UP WITH
13 RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT WOULD APPLY TO THE EVALUATION OF
14 SOURCES, NEW SOURCES, AS TO THEIR IMPACT ON THE AIR QUALITY.
15 THAT WAS FURTHER REFINED TO SAY THAT THEY WERE INADEQUATE.
16 WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IS THAT WE DO HAVE RULES
17 AND REGULATIONS AS THEY APPLY TO NEW SOURCES THAT COME INTO
18 THIS REGION AND WE DO EVALUATE THE AIR QUALITY IMPACT. OUR
19 CONCERN ABOUT OUR REGULATIONS IS THAT THEY MAY BE VERY
20 STRICT. THE REASON WHY EPA DID NOT ACCEPT THOSE REGULATIONS
21 IS THAT WE DID NOT PUT INTO THEM A PUBLIC REVIEW PERIOD.
22 THE PUBLIC REVIEW PERIOD IS SOMETHING LIKE THEY USE ON AN
23 EfR. 1 THINK MANY OF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT. THIS IS
24 INCONSISTENT WITH PRESENT PRACTICES IN AIR POLLUTION CONTROL
25 LAW, AND SO WE DIDN'T DO THAT. THAT'S. WHY EPA IS DOWN HERE
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1 AS FAR AS SAN DIEGO IS CONCERNED. NOT BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE
2 A RULE, NOT BECAUSE OUR RULES ARE NOT ADEQUATE. 1 THINK
3 MR. BEAN MIGHT TESTIFY TO THE POINT THAT OUR RULES MAY BE
4 A LITTLE TOO ADEQUATE. BUT, INDEED, WE DI DN ' T .HAVE A PUBLIC
5 REVIEW COMMENT, AND THAT'S ALL.
6 WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON AND TALK A
7 LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING. THIS AIR POLLUTION
8 CONTROL DISTRICT HAS BEEN REVIEWING THE MACAR10 REFINERY
9 FOR SOME TIME. IN FACT, I THINK IF YOU WERE TO STACK UP
10 ALL THE ANALYSIS THAT HAS BEEN DONE ON THE MACAR10 REFINERY,
11 YOU WOULD FIND THIS DISTRICT HAS DONE THE MOST ANALYSIS, THE
12 MOST DETAILED ANALYSIS, AND I THINK WE ARE PRETTY WELL THE
13 MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE IMPACT IN THE LOCALITY AND IN
14 THE REGION AND THE SPECIFIC EMISSIONS THAT ARE GOING TO BE
15 EMITTED FROM THAT REFINERY.
16 I'M NOT HERE TODAY TO SAY WE ARE GOING TO
17 APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE THAT REFINERY. WE ARE STILL IN AN
18 ANALYSIS PERIOD. WE WON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE GOING TO-DO WITH
19 THE REFINERY, WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO APPROVE IT OR DISAPPROVE
20 IT, UNTIL OUR ANALYSIS IS COMPLETE. WE DON'T FEEL WE'RE
21 GOING.TO KNOW ENOUGH UNTIL PROBABLY, SAY, OCTOBER, M I D-OCTOBE!f,
22 BEFORE WE CAN SAY WHETHER IT SHOULD BE APPROVED OR
23 DISAPPROVED OR PERHAPS APPROVED WITH CERTAIN CONDITIONS.
24 SO, THAT'S WHERE WE ARE. WE'RE SIMPLY SAYING THAT AT THIS
25 POINT WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF OUR ANALYSIS AND WE DON'T KNOW
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1 ENOUGH, AND TO THIS POINT WE HAVE DONE MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE.
2 WHAT WE HAVE BEEN .HEARING TODAY FROM THE EPA IS
3 THAT THE PRIMARY PROBLEM WAS THREE IMPACT AREAS. ONE IMPACT
4 AREA WAS THE LOCAL. IMPACT, THE DETERIORATION OF THE AIR OUAL1 TJY
5 IN THE LOCAL AREA. THE OTHER ONE IS THE EMISSIONS FROM
6 THE REFINERY. NEW SOURCES MUST USE THE BEST AVAILABLE
7 TECHNOLOGY TO REDUCE- THOSE EMISSIONS. THERE IS NO OTHER
8 REASON TO ALLOW THEM TO BUILD. YOU MUST SAY, "HEY, YOU KNOW,
9 DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN."
10 THE OTHER ONE 1S.THE REGIONAL IMPACT. OF COURSE,
11 THERE'S A SYNERG1SM BETWEEN THE REGIONAL IMPACT AND THE
12 LOCAL IMPACT. FOR EXAMPLE, IF REGIONALLY THERE'S ALL SORTS
13 OF SULPHUR GOING INTO THE AIR OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, THAT'S
14 A BACKGROUND LEVEL UPON WHICH THE LOCAL EMISSIONS ARE GOING
15 TO BE ADDED TO. SO, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS IN THE
16 REGION, DOWN THE LINE, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, LOCALLY.
17 SO, WE'RE REALLY INVOLVED IN LOOKING AT THE
18 QUESTION OF WHAT CONSTITUTES MAXIMUM CONTROL TECHNOLOGY
19 AVAILABLE, WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS ON THE REGIONAL AIR QUALITY,
20 THE IMPACT ON LOCALIZED AIR QUALITY. I SHOULD SAY WE HAVE
21 BEEN WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE EPA. OUR RESULTS VERY
22 OFTEN COME UP DIFFERENT, BUT THEN, AGAIN, WE'RE WORKING
23 TOGETHER TO TRY TO ALLEVIATE THAT.
24 THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTIONS POSSIBLE WE
25 HAVE FOUND THROUGH JUST OUR PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS BY DOING
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1
1 SOME FUEL SWITCHING WITHIN A REFINERY. AND WE HAVE A SLIDE
2 HERE ON THAT. I CAN'T SEE THE SLIDE. 1 HOPE YOU CAN.
3 LET ME EXPLAIN IT, THEN, THE REDUCTIONS IN FUEL
4 SWITCHING. WHAT WE'RE SIMPLY SAY^!S, YOU KNOW, THE REFINERY
5 USES ENERGY JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE USES FUEL OIL, FOR EXAMPLE
6 AS YOU SEE HERE, THESE ARE EMISSIONS IN TONS PER DAY THAT
7 ARE REALLY ALL OF THE EMISSIONS THAT WE KNOW OF TO DATE
g FROM THE REFINERY. IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT TOTAL EMISSIONS.
9 WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE REFINERY AS IT'S PRESENTLY PROPOSED.
1Q THEY'RE GOING TO USE A HALF-PERCENT RESIDUAL
n FUEL OIL. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE GOING TO USE .5 PERCENT
,2 FUEL OIL TO RUN THEIR REFINERY. WE HAVE SOME LISTS HERE
,3 OFfiMISSIONS THAT OCCUR WHEN YOU DO THAT. SULPHUR DIOXIDE,
,4 PARTICULATES, HYDROCARBONS, NITROGEN DIOXIDE, AND CARBON
15 MONOXIDE. THE HYDROCARBON PROBLEM HAS ALREADY BEEN
Ig ADDRESSED BY THE EPA, AND WE DO HAVE AN OXIDANT PROBLEM
17 HERE, THE PRECURSOR OF WHICH IS HYDROCARBONS. WE ARE
18 ALREADY SIGNIFICANTLY EXCEEDING THOSE STANDARDS, AND WE'RE
19 GOING TO HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME ATTAINING THEM.
20 ANOTHER NOTE. THE FEDERAL AIR OUALITY STANDARDS
21 FOR PARTICULATES, HYDROCARBONS, AND CARBON MONOXIDE- ARE
22 ALL CURRENTLY BEING EXCEEDED. ON THE LIST HERE--AND THIS
23 IS FOR EPA'S NOTES MORE THAN AMYTHIMG--WE HAVE FOUND THAT
24 THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT THE EMISSION STANDARDS FOR LOSING
25 VAPORS THROUGH STORAGE TANKS ARE NOT VERY GOOD, AND WE THINK
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THEY CAN BE REDUCED. THERE 5S NEW TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE, AND '
2 WE THINK THE A.P. 42 EMISSION STANDARDS FOR THOSE ARE NOT '
3 RIGHT.
NOW, ANOTHER THING THAT THEY COULD DO IS THEY
5 COULD USE, INSTEAD OF FIVE-PERCENT SULPHUR OR HALF-PERCENT
6 SULPHUR -- I ALMOST GAVE BARNEY A HEART ATTACK. I MISS
7 DECIMAL POINTS. AND WHEN I MEAN A HALF PERCENT, EVERY ONCE
8 IN A WHILE 1 SAY FIVE PERCENT, AND IN THIS BUSINESS IT
9 MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE, AND MY ENGINEERS QUAKE. WE CAN USE
10 -1 DISTILLATE FUEL OIL. IF YOU DO THAT, YOU GET A NET
11 DECREASE IN CERTAIN EMISSIONS AND A NET INCREASE IN CERTAIN
12 OTHERS.
13 BUT LOOK AT THE REDUCTIONS. IN SULPHUR DIOXIDE,
14 YOU CAN REDUCE-THE EMISSIONS BY, SAY, 80 PERCENT; FOR
,5 PARTICULATES, SAY, 30 PERCENT. THOSE ARE BIG NUMBERS. YOU
16 DO GET A, SAY, FIVE -- SAY A THREE TO FIVE TO SIX PERCENT
17 INCREASE IN HYDROCARBONS, NITROGEN DIOXIDE, AND CARBON
18 MONOXIDE IF YOU USE THE .1 PERCENT DISTILLATE FUEL OIL, OR
19 DISTILLATE OIL. OF COURSE, THE REFINERY IS MAKING THAT
20 STUFF, AND WE ARE JUST SAYING, "HEY, REFINERY, WHY DON'T
21 WE USE SOME OF YOUR OWN PRODUCT." IT SHOULD BE PRETTY CHEAP.
22 NOW, THAT GIVES US AN OVERALL REDUCTION IN THE CATEGORIES
23 ! OF EMISSIONS OF APPROXIMATELY 33 PERCENT, AND THAT'S PRETTY
24 GOOD.
25 THE OTHER THING YOU CAN DO IS USE NAPTHA. THIS
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REFINERY MAKES NAPTHA, AND IT IS THEIR BASIC ELEMENT OF WHICH j
i
THEY PRODUCE SNG, FOR EXAMPLE. THEY CAN PRODUCE OTHER THINGS.!
WE DON'T HAVE VERY GOOD EMISSION FACTORS AT THIS POINT FOR
NAPTHA. WHEN YOU USE NAPTHA, THE EMISSION FACTORS THAT WE
HAVE FOUND ARE INADEQUATE AND, THEREFORE, THOSE REPRESENTED
HERE ARE WHAT WE FEEL AT THIS POINT TO BE WORSE-CASE EMISSIONS
IF YOU USE THOSE, YOU SEE THAT YOUR PERCENT
REDUCTIONS ARE EVEN BETTER. SULPHUR DIOXIDE CAN BE REDUCED
BY 86 PERCENT, PARTICULATES BY, SAY, 6fl PERCENT, HYDRO-
CARBONS A NET REDUCTION OF VERY LITTLE, 5 PERCENT. 15 PERCEN
ON THE NITROGEN DIOXIDE, 5 PERCENT, SAY, ON CARBON MONOXIDE,
FOR A TOTAL OF ABOUT 49, 50 PERCENT REDUCTION IN THE
EMISSIONS THAT WOULD BE GOING INTO THE AIR IF WE ACCEPTED
THE CONTROL TECHNOLOGY AS THE REFINERY HAD ORIGINALLY
PROPOSED.
NOW, IF WE WANT TO GET REALLY DOWN TO THE NITTY
GRITTY, WE CAN USE SOME OF THE PRODUCT, THE FINAL PRODUCT,
AND THAT IS THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS. SO, THE REFINERY
IS SIMPLY USING ITS OWN FINAL PRODUCT. THERE IS SULPHUR
DIOXIDE -- WE GET, SAY, A 95 TO 97 PERCENT REDUCTION. YOU'RE
ALMOST TOTALLY ELIMINATING THE PROBLEM THAT MAY OCCUR WITH
SULPHUR DIOXIDE. IF YOU USE THE NATURAL GAS, THE SYNTHETIC
NATURAL GAS, AS MADE BY THE REFINERY. OF COURSE, THAT'S
THE1R PRODUCT. THEY WOULD LIKE TO SELL THAT INSTEAD OF
USE IT THEMSELVES.
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1 YOU GET A 90 PERCENT REDUCTION IN PART ICULATES.
2 ESSENTIALLY, YOU'RE USING NATURAL GAS, WHICH IS THE CLEANEST
3 BURNING FUEL-AVAILABLE. HYDROCARBONS, 80 PERCENT REDUCTION,
4 NITROGEN DIOXIDE, 39 PERCENT; CARBON MONOXIDE, 17, FOR A
5 TOTAL OF 67 PERCENT. SO, WE DO HAVE A RANGE OF THINGS TO
6 DO TO MITIGATE THE IMPACT OF THIS REFINERY BEYOND THAT WHICH
7 I BELIEVE EPA HAS CONSIDERED AND 1 KNOW THE REFINERY HAS
8 CONSIDERED.
9 NOW, THE QUESTION IS: ARE WE JUSTIFIED IN DOING
10 THIS? FOR ONE PERSPECTIVE., THE LAW REOUIRES A MAXIMUM
11 CONTROL TECHNOLOGY. WE FEEL THAT THIS REPRESENTS A MAXIMUM
12 CONTROL TECHNOLOGY. IF YOU WANT TO TAKE BEYOND THAT, ARE
13 WE JUSTIFIED IN DOING IT FROM AN IMPACT ANALYSIS? YOU HAVE
14 HEARD EPA SAY THEY FIND NO ADVERSE IMPACT. 1 HAVE EVEN
15 HEARD MACARIO SAY THAT THEIR CONSULTANTS FIND NO ADVERSE
16 IMPACT. WELL, WE HAVE ALSO DONE OUR ANALYSIS ON THE LOCAL
17 AND REGIONAL IMPACT. IN FACT, 1 THINK THE STUDY IS ABOUT
IS REITERATION NO. 17, AND WHAT WE'RE DOING IS CONTINUALLY
19 DOING EVALUATIONS, CONTINUALLY KNOWING MORE ABOUT THE
20 REFINERY AS OUR ENGINEERS GO THROUGH IT. WE'RE CONTINUALLY
21 FINDING OUT USING A LITTLE DIFFERENT METEOROLOGIC CONDITIONS
22 WE COME UP WITH SOME RESULTS. THE RESULTS ARE VERY
23 INTERESTING.
24 WE HAVE LOOKED AT THE SYNERGISTIC EFFECT BETWEEN
25 THE MACARIO REFINERY AND THE .— AS IT NOW EXISTS AND THE
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ENCINA PLANT AS IT WOULD EXIST WITH A TALL STACK. NOW, THE
TALL STACK WAS RATHER INTERESTING. THAT WAS ORIGINALLY PUT
ON THERE TO REDUCE THE GROUND LEVEL IMPACT OF THAT INSTALLA-
TION, AND IT WILL DO IT. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS: OUR SIMULA-
TIONS INDICATE THAT THE MACARIO REFINERY IS LOCATED EXACTLY
WHERE THE PLUME DESCENDS TO THE GROUND, SO YOU HAVE IN A
LOCALIZED AREA A MAXIMIZED IMPACT FROM THE ENCINA 5
INSTALLATION AND THE IMPACT FROM THE MACARIO REFINERY, AND
OUR RESULTS INDICATE THAT WITHOUT CONSIDERING ANY BACKGROUND
THAT MACARIO PLUS ENCINA 5 IN THE REGION ON A 24-HOUR
STANDARD GIVES YOU ABOUT 39 M1CROGRAMS PER METER CUBE, A
3-HOUR, 102, AND A 1-HOUR, 230. THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE
BACKGROUND.
JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THE 24-HOUR, 3-HOUR,
AND 1-HOUR ARE THE STANDARDS THAT ARE SET BY THE STATE.
24-HOUR STANDARDS, 3-HOUR STANDARDS, AND 1-HOUR STANDARDS
ARE REPRESENTATIVE STANDARDS IN TIMES OF AVERAGING FEDERAL
STANDARDS AND CALIFORNIA STANDARDS.
NOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS -'- NOW, YOU KNOW, WE
CAN'T RELATE MACARIO TO TODAY. NUMBER ONE, IT'S NOT HERE
TODAY. IT'S GOING TO BE IN AROUND '78 OR SO. THE FUELS
THAT YOU BURN TODAY ARE NOT GOING TO BE AVAILABLE IN '78.
WE HAVE A LOT OF NATURAL GASES BURNED IN THESE BOILERS
TODAY. THAT'S GOING TO BE CURTAILED IN ABOUT '78. WE WILL
BE USING ALMOST ALL HALF-PERCENT, LOW-SULPHUR FUEL. SO, YOU
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1 HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AROUND CIRCA 1978.
2 WELL, SOME OF THE THINGS WE FIND IS THAT THINGS
3 DON'T LOOK TOO ROSY ON A LOCALIZED IMPACT. IT APPEARS THAT
4 WE ARE LEAST APPROACHING AND MAY EXCEED THE 24-HOUR CALIFORNIA
5 THE STATE STANDARD. AND THAT'S IN A LOCALIZED IMPACT. ON
6 THE REGION WE SEE WHERE WE'RE APPROACHING THE FEDERAL
7 STANDARD FOR S02 AND WE'RE NOT EXCEEDING OUR COMPUTER PROGRAM
8 DON'T SAY YOU'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY EXCEED IT AT THIS POINT.
9 I HAVE TO SAY THAT. SO, IF 1 WAS A BUFF FOR THE REFINERY,
10 I WOULD SAY OUR PROGRAM AND OUR CALCULATIONS DO NOT SHOW
11 THAT WE EXCEED IT.
12 IN OTHER WORDS, NUMBER ONE, IT'S PRELIMINARY
13 AND, NUMBER TWO, IT'S APPROACHING IT. THAT'S WHAT CONCERNS
14 ME, BECAUSE THESE COMPUTER PROGRAMS ARE LIKE THIS. AND A
15 LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT IT'S JUST A MACHINE, AND YOU TRY
16 AND TELL IT TO DO THE BEST IT CAN. BUT A LOT OF US DON'T
17 KNOW ALL ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE ATMOSPHERE THESE
18 DAYS, AND SO THESE COMPUTER PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE TAKEN WITH
19 A LITTLE RESPONSIBILITY, AND 1 FEEL PERSONALLY IF- ALL THE
20 CALCULATIONS ARE POINTING IN A DIRECTION, THEN YOU HAVE TO
21 WATCH OUT. NOT WHETHER THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBERS COME
22 OUT TO SIX DECIMAL POINTS. THE NUMBER IS WRONG. THE
23 QUESTION IS HOW RIGHT OR HOW WRONG IS IT. SO, BEWARE
24 COMPUTER PROGRAMS.
25 IN CONTRAST TO EITHER MACARIO AND IN CONTRAST
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RIGHT NOW TO EPA, WE THINK THERE IS A POTENTIAL FOR SIGNI-
FICANTLY IMPACTING AIR QUALITY IN THIS REGION. AND THIS,
OF COURSE, IS A VER.Y GOOD BASIS FOR LOOKING AS THE POSSI-
BILITIES OF FUEL SWITCHING. BECAUSE IF WE CAN USE NAPTHA,
WE CAN REDUCE THAT IMPACT BY 86 PERCENT JUST FROM SULPHUR
DIOXIDE, JUST FROM FUEL SWITCHING. SO, I THINK THE POSSI-
BILITIES FROM THIS DISTRICT ARE, AT LEAST IN THE INTERIM,
THAT WE'RE GOING TO LOOK VERY HARD AT FUEL SWITCHING AND
OTHER TECHNOLOGY ON THAT REFINERY, AND I THINK IT'S VERY
POSSIBLE THAT IF WE DO THAT THAT THIS REFINERY MAY BE ABLE
TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. MAY. I'M NOT SAYING IT WILL. I'M
SAYING THERE IS A GOOD POTENTIAL WITH SOME VERY ADVANCED
TECHNOLOGIES AND FUEL SWITCHING THAT WE CAN MITIGATE SOME OF
THE IMPACT THAT WE CONSIDER IMPORTANT.
NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON A COUPLE OTHER THINGS.
IT'S ALSO BEEN BROUGHT OUT HERE THE BIG DISCUSS 10 N ABOUT UTILIZING
THIS FUEL IN THIS AREA. IT'S A VERY UNFORTUNATE SITUATION.
I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA TO BRING IN A REFINERY THAT'S A
CLEAN-RUNNING REFINERY THAT COULD BE USED TO INSURE THAT
YOUR LOCALITY HAS SUFFICIENT CLEAN-BURNING FUEL AVAILABLE
TO IT. IT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY, IT'S GOOD TO KEEP THE
HOUSE WARM. OKAY. BECAUSE THESE THINGS,MAY GET VERY BAD
AS FAR AS ENERGY IS CONCERNED. BUT IT IS ALSO UNFORTUNATE
THAT- WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD ENERGY POLICY. WE HAVE A STATE
COMMISSION WHO HAS JUST STARTED UP. WE HAVE THE PUBLIC
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1 UTILITIES COMMISSION, WE HAD THE FEDERAL ENERGY COMMISSION.
2 THEY ALL HAVE A HAND IN HERE, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE
3 GOING TO DO.
4 NOW, MR. BEAN HAS INDICATED THAT THE PURPOSE
5 OF HIS REFINERY WAS TO SAVE OUR AIR. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT.
6 [ THINK THEY MIGHT HAVE SOME IDEA OF MAKING A COUPLE. OF
7 DOLLARS ON THE SIDE.
8 (APPLAUSE)
9 AND I THINK THAT SDGSE MIGHT STAND TO MAKE A COUPLE
10 OF DOLLARS ON THE SIDE BECAUSE THEY HAVE CONTRACTS FOR FUEL
II NOW, AND THEY CAN GET IT CHEAPER. SO ALTHOUGH IT MAY DO US
12 SOME GOOD IN THE REGION, I THINK INDEED WHEN YOU'RE TALKING
13 ABOUT A CORPORATE STRUCTURE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PROFITS.
14 AND THAT'S THEIR PURPOSE. AND IF IT HELPS US ON THE SIDE,
15 THAT'S GREAT, BUT 1 HAD TO GET THAT BARB IN BECAUSE WE GET
16 A LITTLE BIT ALIENATED WHEN SOMEONE COMES IN WITH A REFINERY
17 AND SAYS IT'S GOING TO HELP MY AIR QUALITY AND THAT'S THE
18 PURPOSE OF IT. I DOUBT IF THAT'S THE PURPOSE.
19 SO, WHAT THIS DISTRICT IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO,
20 AND THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO, IS TO EVALUATE THIS REFINERY
21 UNDER A WORSE-CASE CONDITION, AND WE CANNOT EVALUATE IT WITH
22 ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE POWER,OR KNOW THERE IS -
23 THE POWER TO CONTROL. SO, WE'RE ONLY GOING TO EVALUATE IT
24 ON THOSE ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE CAN PUT ON A PERMIT TO OPERATE.
25 NOW, THAT MEANS WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TRADE OFF SOME
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1 REGIONAL BENEFITS VERSUS LOCAL BECAUSE, AS FAR AS WE CAN SEE,
2 THERE'S NO GUARANTEE AT ALL THAT AT ANY TIME THE RESULTS --• j
i
3 OR THE OUTPUT FROM THAT REFINERY MAY GO TO SOMEONE ELSE.
4 FOR EXAMPLE, SUPPOSE WE DO GET INTO AN ENERGY CRISIS AND
5 THERE'S PROBLEMS BACK EAST. YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE BIGGER
6 PROBLEMS WITH S02 THAN WE DO AT THIS TIME. THERE'S NO DOUBT
7 THERE'S A GOOD POSSIBILITY THIS REFINERY WON'T EVEN GET
8 FEED STOCK UNLESS ITS PRODUCT GOES BACK EAST, AT LEAST FOR
9 AN INTERIM PERIOD, IF THERE IS AN EMERGENCY.
10 YOU KNOW, YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE THE ASSUMPTION
11 THAT YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT HERE IF YOU HAVE ALL THE PUBLIC
12 UTILITIES COMMISSION, THE FEDERALS WHO REGULATE THE OUTPUT
13 AND ACTUALLY THE INPUT INTO THE THING, AND YOU HAVE NO
14 CONTROL OVER IT. AND SO 1 THINK FOR OUR PURPOSE WE'RE GOING
15 TO HAVE TO JUST SAY A SIMPLE WORSE-CASE BIT. THAT THING
15 WILL HAVE TO STAND ON ITS OWN, YOU KNOW, AND NOT POLLUTE IN
17 A LOCALIZED AREA. AND THEN WE CAN GIVE A LEGAL AND VALID
18 PERMIT TO OPERATE IF IT CAN DO THAT.
19 IT'S UNFORTUNATE. ! WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE EPA
20 AND THE ARB GET TOGETHER AND START PUTTING PRESSURE ON THESE
21 FEDS AND STATE PEOPLE TO GET THEIR STUFF TOGETHER AS FAR AS
22 ENERGY IS CONCERNED SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY GET SOMETHING
23 IN HERE THAT WOULD INSURE THAT WE WOULD HAVE SOME DECENT
24 FUELS FOR USING IN OUR POWER GENERATION AND KNOW THAT'S
25 WHAT IT IS. IT'S A'GREAT IDEA EXCEPT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S
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GOING TO HAPPEN. ALL YOU KNOW FOR SURE IS THAT SOMEBODY
WANTS TO BUILD A REFINERY HERE, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE OUTPUT OF IT. YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE
A THING.
THERE ARE A COUPLE AREAS OF CONCERN THAT I HAVE
HEARD SOME TESTIMONY ON AND 1 WANT TO BRING THEM UP HERE.
THERE WAS A STATEMENT MADE BY EPA THAT SDGSE MAY NOT HAVE
HALF-PERCENT OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL IN THE FUTURE. NOW, THAT
CONCERNS ME BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE LOOKING AT THE MACARIO --
NOT THE MACARIO, THE ENC1NA 5 INSTALLATION, WE DID CHECK
WITH SDGSE, AND WE WERE ASSURED AND WE WERE -SHOWN CONTRACTS
FOR HALF-PERCENT FUEL THAT GO OUT TO, SAY, AROUND 1985- DID
YOU GET THAT, FRANK, FROM SDGSE?
MR. COVINGTON: THAT THEY WOULD NOT?
MR. SW1CKER: WE HAD INDICATION THAT THEY HAD
THIS CONTRACT. THE INDICATION WE HAD WAS THAT THEY HAD
CONTRACTS FOR FUEL BUT THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE WHERE THE FUEL
WOULD COME FROM TO FULFILL THOSE CONTRACTS.
MR. SOMMERV1LLE: AGAIN, WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH
A CORPORATION WHO TELLS YOU ONE THING, DEPENDING ON WHAT
THEIR PURPOSE IS, EVIDENTLY. (APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU,,MR. SOMMERVILLE.
MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME QUESTIONS.
MR. COVINGTON: TWO POINTS. AM i UNDERSTANDING
CORRECTLY THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT WILL NOT BE ABLE
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1 TO ACT BEFORE OCTOBER? IS THAT YOUR PRESENT TIME TABLE?
2 , MR. SOMMERVILLE: NO, 1 DON'T THINK -- WE DON'T
3 HAVE THE RESTRICTIONS THAT YOU HAVE, AND IN ALL DEFFERENCE
4 TO EPA, FOLKS, THEIR REGULATIONS REQUIRE A PRETTY STRICT TIME
5 FRAME FOR WHICH INFORMATION COMES IN AND WHICH THEY COME UP
6 WITH A SOLUTION OR AN ANSWER, AND WE THINK THAT EPA IN
7 REGION 9 COULD USE THIS EXPERIENCE VERY WELL TO GO BACK TO
8 THEIR HEADQUARTERS AND GET THAT RULE CHANGED BECAUSE YOU
9 SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE A COMPLEX INSTALLATION LIKE A REFINERY
10 AND ATTEMPT TO COMPLETELY REVIEW THAT TOTAL INSTALLATION FOR
'll EMISSIONS, NOT JUST THE STANDARD ONES THAT AFFECT YOUR LIFE,
12 BUT THE STICKY ONES, THE ONE-S THAT ARE ODOROUS, AND TRY TO
13 FIGURE OUT IF THE CONTROLS ARE ADEQUATE ON THAT THING, TRY
14 TO FIGURE OUT IF THE IMPACT, THE LOCALIZED IMPACT, IS GOING
15 TO BE SIGNIFICANT OR NOT. THE SYNERG1STIC EFFECTS BETWEEN
16 THE REGION AND THE OTHER INSTALLATIONS. THAT'S.A BIG JOB,
17 AND WE JUST DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE FINISHED WITH THAT
18 JOB UNTIL ABOUT THAT TIME.
19 MR. COVINGTON: ONE LAST QUESTION. GOING BACK
20 TO THE INITIAL TESTIMONY OF THE GENTLEMAN FROM THE LEUCAD1A
21 TOWN COUNCIL, PART OF THAT DEALT WITH HIS CONCERNS ABOUT THE
22 BUILD-OUT, THE POSSIBILITY OF ATTRACTING SATELLITE INDUSTRIES,
23 THE CREATION OF A PETROCHEMICAL COMPLEX, AS I UNDERSTOOD HIM.
24 DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE YOU COULD ADD AT THIS POINT AS TO
25 WHAT THE GENERAL PLAN CALLS FOR AS TO EXACTLY WHAT IS THE LAND
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1 USE SITUATION, THE ZONING SITUATION?
2 MR. SOMMERVILLE: WELL, THE LAND USE -- IT'S IN
3 AN INDUSTRIAL PARK AREA. WHETHER IT'S LIGHT OR HEAVY AT
4 THIS POINT, 1 DON'T KNOW, AS FAR AS THE ZONING AND LAND USE.
5 I BELIEVE IT'S OWNED BY SDGSE, AND THEY WANT TO USE THAT AS
6 AN INDUSTRIAL PARK. IT'S THE AREA RIGHT UP ALONGSIDE THE
7 AIRPORT. I WOULD JUST CAUTION YOU TO THE POINT THAT IT
8 DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHAT THE LAND USE DESIGNATION IS
9 TODAY OR WHAT THE ZONING IS TODAY BECAUSE TOMORROW IT CAN BE
10 CHANGED. (APPLAUSE)
11 MR. COV1NGTON: LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN ACTION.
12 I HAVE NO OTHER COMMENT. THANK YOU.
13 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. SOMMERVILLE.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 WE'RE ABOUT TO TAKE A BREAK, BUT FIRST WE HAVE
16 SOME HOUSEKEEPING FUNCTIONS.
17 IT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME THE SPEAKERS WERE NOT
18 ALL IDENTIFIED. MR. KEN SCHULTZ WAS FROM THE LEUCADIA TOWN
19 COUNCIL; MR. BRUCE BEAN, AS YOU MIGHT HAVE SUSPECTED, WAS
20 FROM THE MACARIO REFINERY; AND MR. JONES REPRESENTING HIMSELF.
21 THE LAST SPEAKER, MR. RICH SOMMERVILLE, WAS FROM THE SAN DIEGO
22 AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT.
23 WE ARE NOW GOING TO TAKE A RECESS FOR THE
24 PURPOSES OF THE COURT REPORTER, AND WE WILL HAVE A QUEST10N-
25 AND-ANSWER PERIOD.
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NOW, TO GET THIS THING MOVING ALONG AS EXPEDI-
T10USLY AS POSSIBLE—AND I DO OBSERVE THE HOUR--WE WOULD LIKE
TO RECONVENE AT 11:30. I CANNOT HELP BUT NOTICE THAT THERE
ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WISH TO SPEAK FOR THE CARLSBAD
COMMUNITY CAUSE. WE ARE HERE TO HEAR EVERYONE WHO WISHES TO
SPEAK; BUT IF THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE HAS A SINGLE
SPEAKER WHO CAN PRESENT THEIR CASE FOR THEM AND THE REST CAN
CONCUR IN HIS REMARKS, THIS WILL BE APPRECIATED. HOWEVER,
IF THAT CAN'T BE DONE, WE WILL HEAR EVERYBODY WHO WISHES TO
SPEAK. YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT THAT BETWEEN NOW AND 11:30.
WE WILL NOW STAND AT RECESS UNTIL THAT TIME.
(RECESS)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WOULD
LIKE TO RECONVENE THE HEARING.
FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING FUNCTIONS
TO PERFORM. THERE WERE SOME EXHIBITS THAT WERE PRESENTED
THAT HAVE NOT BEEN NUMBERED AND IDENTIFIED ON THE RECORD.
EXHIBIT 13 WILL BE THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY'S
NEWS RELEASE DATED AUGUST 20TH, 1975.
EXHIBIT 14 WILL BE THE WRITTEN REMARKS OF
MR. K. L. SCHULTZ, PRESIDENT OF THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL.
1 WAS HANDED A WRITTEN DOCUMENT PRIOR TO THE HEARING FROM
23 i MR. ALLAN 0. KELLY, A ONE-PAGE LETTER WITH A MAP ATTACHED
24
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TO IT, AND I HAVE MARKED THAT EXHIBIT 15.
THE SLIDE THAT WAS PRESENTED BY MR. SOMMERVILLE
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1 WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 16. AND I HAVE BEEN ASSURED THAT THE
2 SLIDES PRESENTED BY THE MACAR10 REFINERY WILL BE PRODUCED
3 AND PRESENTED, AND THEY WILL BE MARKED IN ORDER WHEN THEY'RE
4 PRESENTED.
5 IN ACCORDANCE WITH OUR REQUEST EARLIER, WE HAVE
6 ASKED THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE IF THEY HAVE A PRINCIPAL
7 SPEAKER, AND MR. DWIGHT WORDEN WILL BE CALLED ON AT THIS TIME
8 MR. WORDEN IS AN ATTORNEY FOR THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE
9 AND IS LOCATED IN SOLANA BEACH.
10 MR- WORDEN: THANK YOU, MR.- WALKER. I AM AN
II ATTORNEY REPRESENTING THE LEGAL PANEL FOR CARLSBAD COMMUNITY
12 CAUSE. MY OFFICE IS IN SOLANA BEACH.
13 THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE IS A CIVIC GROUP,
14 AS MOST OF YOU KNOW, COMPRISED OF SEVERAL HUNDRED MEMBERS
J5 IN THE CARLSBAD AREA. WE ARE CONCERNED WITH OTHER PROJECTS
16 BESIDES THE REFINERY, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE SPENT A LOT OF
17 TIME RESEARCHING AND INVESTIGATING THIS REFINERY. I HAVE
18 SOME WRITTEN COMMENTS THAT WERE PREPARED BY THE LEGAL PANEL
19 TO SUBMIT INTO EVIDENCE AND WILL HAND THOSE IN AT THIS TIME,
20 MANY OF THE PO-INTS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ALREADY. I WILL
2] JUST TOUCH LIGHTLY ON THOSE AND HIT SOME MORE DETAIL ON SOME
22 OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN POINTED OUT SO FAR.
23 FIRST, I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT OUR BASIC POINT
24 IS THAT THE EPA HAS ABUSED ITS DISCRETION IN MAKING A
25 PRELIMINARY APPROVAL OF THE REFINERY. THEY HAVE NOT ACTED
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IN A PROPER MANNER UNDER THE REGULATIONS THAT GOVERN THEM.
THEY HAVE CONSIDERED ONLY SOME OF THE ADVERSE AIR QUALITY
IMPACT THAT WILL RESULT FROM THE REFINERY. UNDER THEIR
INITIAL IMPACT APPRAISAL, IT'S INDICATED AT PAGE 3, IF
JUST THE EMISSIONS COMING OUT OF THE SMOKE STACKS WERE
CONSIDERED, THE PROJECT COULD NOT BE APPROVED.
THE BASIS OF THE APPROVAL IS THERE WILL BE THIS
NET OVERALL REDUCTION IN THE REGION WHEN YOU BALANCE THE
DIRECT EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY AGAINST THE BENEFICIAL
IMPACTS OF THE USE OF LOW-POLLUTING FUEL. AS HAS BEEN
POINTED OUT, THAT ASSUMPTION IS SUBJECT TO QUESTION, AND 1
12 WOULD LIKE TO READ TWO SHORT STATEMENTS. THE FIRST IS FROM
EXHIBIT 8, WHICH IS THE LETTER FROM THE FEDERAL ENERGY
ADMINISTRATION REFERRED TO WHICH, IN DISCUSSING THAT
ASSUMPTION SAYS:
"HOWEVER, THE ASSUMPTION IN YOUR ANALYSIS THAT
THE ENTIRE 100 MMCF PER DAY OF SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS
PRODUCED BY THE MACARIO REFINERY WILL BE UTILIZED IN THE
SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION IN LIEU OF ALTERNATE
FUELS IS WITHOUT BASIS."
THE SECOND STATEMENT IS FROM EXHIBIT 9, WHICH IS
A LETTER FROM THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION REFERRED TO,
AND IT'S A DIRECT RESPONSE TO MR. BEAN'S STATEMENT THAT THE
PUC PRESENTLY DOESN'T HAVE ANY AUTHORITY TO REALLOCATE FUEL.
i.THE SHORTAGE OF NATURAL GAS MIGHT CAUSE ACTION
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TO BE TAKEN TO ALLOCATE THE MANUFACTURED GAS TO OTHER USES
IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WHICH CANNOT USE NON-GASEOUS ALTERNATE
FUELS."
WE FEEL, FIRST, EPA IS ABUSING IT'S DISCRETION
BY^BALANCING THE REGIONAL IMPACT AGAINST THE LOCAL IMPACT.
THE REGULATIONS, AS STATED IN 52.233(6) OF THE C.F.R.
INDICATES THEY HAVE CONSIDERED IMPACTS FROM THE SOURCE; BUT
IF THEY ARE GOING TO BALANCE REGIONAL IMPACTS, THEY MUST
BALANCE THE ADVERSE REGIONAL IMPACTS AS WELL AS THE BENEFICIAL
REGIONAL IMPACTS. THEY HAVE CONSIDERED THE BENEFICIAL
IMPACTS ON THE ASSUMPTION THE FUEL WILL BE USED HERE. THEY
HAVE NOT CONSIDERED THE ADVERSE IMPACTS INDIRECTLY RESULTING
FROM THE REFINERY, SUCH AS DIESEL TRUCK TRAFFIC, INCREASED
EMISSIONS FROM TANKER TRAFFIC, INCREASED INDUSTRIAL EXPANSION,
INCREASED GROWTH POTENTIAL, AND AUTOMOBILE TRAFFIC, AND ALL
THE ATTENDANT AIR POLLUTION CONSEQUENCES OF THOSE.
SKIPPING OVER A LOT OF OTHER POINTS THAT HAVE
BEEN COVERED ADEQUATELY ALREADY, I THINK WE ALSO FEEL THAT
EPA HAS NOT ADEQUATELY CONSIDERED ALL ALTERNATIVES.
ALTHOUGH EPA IS SPECIFICALLY EXEMPTED FROM THE ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT STATEMENT OF THE NEPA, THE NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL
POLICY ACT, IT IS NOT EXAMPTED FROM THE REST OF THE NATIONAL
ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ACT, AND THAT ACT, IN SECTION 102(2)(D)
REQUIRES THAT ALTERNATIVES TO THE PROJECT BE CONSIDERED.
AS WE POINTED OUT, A VERY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE IS
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1 TO LOCATE THE REFINERY ELSEWHERE AND PUT THE FUELS TO USE
2 STILL IN SAN DIEGO. AND THERE IS NO BASIS THAT WE CAN SEE
3 IN THE RECORD THAT IN ORDER TO HAVE CLEAN FUELS AVAILABLE I N"
4 SAN DIEGO THE REFINERY MUST BE LOCATED IN SAN DIEGO OR IN
5 CARLSBAD, IN PARTICULAR.
6 FINALLY, WE WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THERE IS
7 SOME QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN RAISED BY THE ZONING, ET CETERA.
8 WE RESEARCHED THIS, AND, GENERALLY, ALTHOUGH IT IS A VERY
9 COMPLICATED PROCESS, THE REFINERY IS GOING TO HAVE TO GO
10 THROUGH TO GET APPROVAL, THE FIRST STAGE: THERE WILL HAVE
]| TO BE AN APPLICATION FOR ANNEXATION TO THE LOCAL AGENCY
12 FORMATION COMMISSION TO ANNEX WHAT IS NOW AN UNINCORPORATED
I3 PART OF THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO TO THE CITY OF CARLSBAD,
14 WHICH IS TO BE THE LEAD AGENCY TO PREPARE THE ENVIRONMENTAL
15 IMPACT REPORT. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN DONE YET. GENERAL PLAN
•
16 AMENDMENTS WILL BE REQUIRED, A SPECIFIC PLAN WILL BE
17 REQUIRED, PRE-ZONING WILL BE REQUIRED, ON AND ON BEFORE THIS
18 PROJECT GETS APPROVAL.
19 WE FEEL THAT IT WOULD BE MORE PRUDENT FOR EPA TO
20 WAIT UNTIL SOME OF THIS IS DONE, SPECIFICALLY UNTIL THE APCD
2i HAS COMPLETED THEIR WORK AND UNTIL AN EIR IS AVAILABLE.
22 EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE EXEMPTED UNDER NEPA, IT WOULD BE
23 BENEFICIAL TO HAVE THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE THAT WOULD BE
24 PRESENTED IN AN EIR, WHICH WILL BE FORTHCOMING.
25 AND, FINALLY, 1 WOULD JUST LIKE TO SUPPORT THE
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STATEMENTS THAT MR. SOMMERVILLE MADE ON BEHALF OF THE APCD
THAT A VERY PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE IN MITIGATING THE MEASURE
IS TO REQUIRE THE USE OF SOME OTHER FUELS.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
MR. WORDEN, DID YOU SAY YOU HAVE SOME MATTERS
YOU WANT TO OFFER AS EXHIBITS?
MR. VJORDEN: YES. HE'S HANDING THEM TO YOU.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: EARLIER IT WAS SAID WE WERE NOT
GOING TO PERMIT OPEN DEBATE, BUT SEVERAL PEOPLE ASKED IF THEY
CAN ASK QUESTIONS. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS YOU WISH TO
ADDRESS EITHER TO THE PANEL OR TO ANY PARTICULAR SPEAKER,
IF YOU WILL PUT THEM IN WRITING AND HAND THEM TO THE YOUNG
LADY AT MY RIGHT, WE WILL BE GLAD TO AT LEAST PUT THEM IN
THE RECORD AND ANSWER THEM IF WE CAN. I'M NOT SURE WE CAN
ANSWER EVERY QUESTION THAT'S POSED TO US.
1 HAVE RECEIVED ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR PAGES ON
THE LETTERHEAD OF WORDEN £ WILLIAMS, ATTORNEYS AT LAW, AS
DESCRIBED HERE, AND THIS WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 17.
I WILL NOW CALL ON MR. R. R. RICHARDSON,
7325 EL PASO STREET, LA MESA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING THE
SAN DIEGO LABOR COUNCIL.
MR. RICHARDSON: MEMBERS OF THE PANEL OF THE
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, MY NAME IS R. R. RICHARDSON.
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I I'M SECRETARY-TREASURER OF THE SAN DIEGO LABOR COUNCIL. AND
2 FROM THE START I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT UNDERSTOOD THAT I'M
3 NOT AN EXPERTEE IN ONE TYPE OF FUEL OVER ANOTHER, THE ANSWER
4 TO OUR ENERGY CRISIS, BUT 1 DO UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE WORKINGS
5 OF ECONOMIC IMPACT ON PEOPLE. THAT'S THE NAME OF MY JOB.
6 AS SECRETARY OF THE LABOR COUNCIL, I REPRESENT
7 140,000 MEMBERS IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. OF THIS 140,000,
8 APPROXIMATELY 30,000 LIVE IN NORTH COUNTY. OF THAT 30,000
9 IN NORTH COUNTY, IN THE BUILDING TRADES PART OF THE 30,000
10 MEMBERS OF THE BUILDING TRADES UNION WE HAVE 28 TO 30 PERCENT
1] UNEMPLOYMENT. SPEAKING OF NORTH COUNTY ONLY. THESE 30,000
12 MEMBERS OF ORGANIZED LABOR THAT LIVE IN NORTH COUNTY ARE
13 TAX PAYERS AND CONCERNED CITIZENS, THE SAME AS YOU ARE.
14 THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY LABOR COUNCIL STRONGLY
15 SUPPORTS THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE REFINERY CONTEMPLATED BY
16 MACARIO REFINERY BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT IT WILL HAVE ON OUR
17 ALREADY SICK ECONOMY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, WHICH INCLUDES
18 NORTH COUNTY. THE BUILDING OF THIS REFINERY WOULD CREATE
19 APPROXIMATELY 4,000,000 MAN HOURS OF WORK AND, AT A PEAK,
20 AN EMPLOYMENT FIGURE OF 2,200 PEOPLE IN THE CONSTRUCTION ONLY.
21 AFTER CONSTRUCTION, THEN THE MAINTENANCE, WHICH FIGURES I DO
22 NOT HAVE AT MY FINGERTIPS.
23 THIS WILL STIMULATE THE ECONOMY IN NORTH COUNTY,
24 WHICH WOULD PROFIT BY AN INCREASE IN BUSINESS AND PROFITS TO
25 THE BUTCHER, THE BAKER, THE BARBER, THE RESTAURANT OWNER, THE
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1 LANDLORD WHO IS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE APARTMENTS OR INCOME j
2 PROPERTY. I'M SURE MANY OF OUR PEOPLE RENT THOSE PLACES.
3 IT WOULD INSURE THEM THE SECURITY OF THEIR RENT FOR THEIR
4 INCOME.
5 1 HAVE NOT SEEN OR HEARD WHERE THE BUILDING OF
6 THIS PLANT WOULD CREATE AN EYESORE. 1 HAVE HEARD- THIS
7 MORNING FOR THE FIRST TIME IT WILL BE IN A CANYON. AND 1
8 ALSO DID NOT HEAR OR SEE WHERE IT WOULD BE IN CON-FLICT OF
9 ANY PLANNING. AND FROM WHAT I'VE .HEARD HERE THIS MORNING,
10 IT DOES MEET ALL MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS EXCEPT THE TECHNI-
11 CALITIES OF THE FIGURES WE HAVE HEARD HERE FROM BOTH SIDES.
12 AND ALSO 1 HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING FROM ONE INDIVIDUAL IT
13 IS HIS CONCEPT THAT IT WILL BE BLACK SMOKE, THICK BLACK
14 SMOKE ROLLING OUT OF THE STACKS, WHICH IS, ACCORDING TO WHAT
15 1 HAVE HEARD AND TALKED TO MR. BEAN, IS NOT SO. THIS WILL
16 NOT BE THE FACT WITH THIS PARTICULAR PLANT.
17 IN 1933 I MOVED TO CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA, AND I
18 LIVED HERE FOR 1938, '39, AND 1940. AT THAT TIME CARLSBAD
19 AND OCEANS IDE WERE JUST SMALL LITTLE ONE-HORSE TOWNS.
20 CARLSBAD HAD AN APPROXIMATE POPULAT1ON--AND I REMEMBER THE
21 SIGN OUTSIDE THE CITY LIM1TS--SOME APPROXIMATE 1600 TO 2000
22 PEOPLE. OCEANS!DE, PRIOR TO THE BUILDING OF CAMP PENDLETON,
23 ! HAD APPROXIMATELY 3000 OR 3300. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING NORTH
24 COUNTY HASN'T COME A LONG WAYS, AND 1 THINK DUE TO THE FACT
25 THEY HAVE COME A LONG WAYS IS BECAUSE THEY WERE WILLING TO
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MEET THE CHALLENGES, CHANGE WITH THE TIMES IN WHICH WE WERE
LIVING, AND TO CONTINUE TO DO WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST
AND IN THE FUTURE. I'M SURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONTINUE
TO MEET THE CHANGES, MEET THE CHALLENGES, ADJUST OURSELVES
TO THE THINGS THAT WE NEED IN THE WAY OF SERVICES.
I'M ALSO SURE THAT IF THE ATTITUDE OF THE
OPPOSITION TO THE BUILDING OF THIS PLANT WAS THE SAME
ATTITUDE OF CERTAIN PEOPLE AT THE TIME 1 MOVED TO CARLSBAD
IN 1938 YOU WOULD NOT EVEN BE LIVING IN NORTH COUNTY TODAY
BECAUSE THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH HOUSING, THERE WOULD NOT
BE ENOUGH PLACES TO BUY YOUR MERCHANDISE, YOUR GROCERIES;
THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH SERVICES FOR YOUR UTILITIES. YOU
WOULD NOT EVEN, MAYBE, BE SITTING IN THIS ROOM TODAY IF THE
SAME ATTITUDE PREVAILED THEN.
THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY HAS
ALWAYS BEEN A STRONG SUPPORTER FOR CLEAN AIR, FOR PURE AIR,
FOR OPEN SPACES, PARKS, RECREATIONAL, ET CETERA. BUT WHEN
IT DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY INVOLVES THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE
WE REPRESENT IN THE WORKING PEOPLE OF OUR COMMUNITY,
INCLUDING NORTH COUNTY, WE GET REAL CONCERNED AND LOOK AT
IT PRETTY DEEP. THEN WE TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT IT.
AS OUR BROTHER SAID THIS MORNING, WHICH i THOUGHT
WAS VERY TIMELY, WE LIKE CLEAN AIR, WE LIKE PURE WATER.
BUT IF YOU HAVE NOTHING IN YOUR STOMACH, YOU DON'T ENJOY THAT,
AND THAT'S WHAT THE NAME OF THE GAME IS.
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1 WISH TO THANK THOSE WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR
THIS HEARING HERE TODAY, MEMBERS OF THE PANEL, WHICH IN
TURN MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO MAKE MY FEW REMARKS HERE
TODAY.
5 1 ALSO UNDERSTAND, IN CLOSING, THIS PARTICULAR
6 PARCEL OF LAND AT PRESENT IS IN THE UNINCORPORATED PART OF
THE COUNTY, WHICH MEANS IT'S NOT ON THE TAX ROLLS. IF THIS
PLANT IS BUILT, I'M SURE IT WILL COME ON THE TAX ROLLS OF
PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, WHICH WILL RELIEVE THE TAX BURDENS ON
10 YOU THAT ARE CAUGHT IN A FIXED INCOME AND YOU THAT HAVE TO
1] PAY THE PROPERTY TAXES IN NORTH COUNTY OR WHATEVER PARTICULAR
12 CITY YOU'RE IN.
13 AGAIN, 1 WISH TO URGE THE PANEL THAT IN THEIR
14 FINAL APPROVAL THEY ACCEPT THE APPLICATION FOR THE CONSTRUCTIC
15 OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY.' THANK YOU.
16 (APPLAUSE)
17 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. RICHARDSON.
18 ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS OF MR. RICHARDSON FROM
19 THE PANEL?
20 NEXT, ACCORDING TO OUR ORDER, IS MR. DEE LOGSTON.
21 MR. LOGSTON: MY NAME is DEE LOGSTON. I'M A
22 RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY AND NOT NORTH COUNTY, BUT I HAVE
23 BEEN A RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY FOR QUITE A NUMBER OF
24 YEARS.
25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR ADDRESS.
N
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MR. LOGSTON: I LIVE IN CHULA VISTA, 100 WOODLAWN
AVENUE IN CHULA VISTA. I LIVE VERY NEAR A POWER-GENERATING
FACILITY IN CHULA VISTA. IT'S BEEN OPERATED BY SAN DIEGO
GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY.
I HAVE LIVED QUITE CLOSE TO MANY OTHER GENERATING
PLANTS WHERE I HAVE LIVED IN THE PAST. KANSAS CITY POWER £
ELECTRIC COMPANY. IN THE PAST I HAVE SEEN COMPANIES THAT
BURNED COAL, THAT GENERATE THEIR ELECTRICITY. THEY BURN FUEL
OIL. AND IN THE PAST LIKE THAT IT HASN'T BEEN TOO PLEASANT
TO LIVE AROUND THOSE KINDS OF PLANTS. YOU GOT ONE RIGHT HERE
IN ENCINA NOW THAT'S GENERATING ITS POWER WITH A GRADE OF
FUEL OIL THAT THEY'RE ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE AND MAKE IT BETTER
TO CUT DOWN ON THE POLLUTION. AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE BUILDING OF THIS REFINERY THAT THEY'R
TALKING ABOUT.
YOU HAVE ALREADY HEARD FROM SOME PRIOR TESTIMONY
THIS MORNING THAT PROBABLY IN '78, '79 AND YEARS IN THE
FUTURE, TEN YEARS IN THE FUTURE, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THIS
AREA THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE BY THE PRODUCTION OF
POWER ON THIS PLANT IF THEY CONTINUE TO USE THE FUEL OILS .
THAT THEY'RE USING NOW AND THE FUEL THAT THEY MAY BE FORCED
TO USE IN THE FUTURE.
IF WE HAVE A FUEL OIL SHORTAGE, WHICH WE HAVE
HAD IN THE PAST, IT'S POSSIBLE THEY'RE GOING TO BURN EVEN A
LOWER GRADE OF FUEL. DON'T THINK FOR A MINUTE THEY'RE GOING
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TO SHUT THAT PLANT DOWN IF THEY CAN'T GET THE FUEL THEY'RE
USING NOW. BECAUSE IF YOU THINK THAT'S THE CASE, YOU'RE
GOING TO BE SITTING OUT HERE WITH YOUR CANDLES AND YOU'RE
GOING TO BE SITTING HERE WITHOUT HEAT IN YOUR HOME BECAUSE
YOU CAN'T RUN YOUR HEATING SYSTEMS. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
IF IT REALLY COMES TO THIS, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN.
THERE'S MANY PLANTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE BURNING
OIL, WHICH IS A HIGHER POLLUTANT THAN COAL. BUT IF IT COMES
THAT THEY CAN'T HAVE OIL AS A SUPPLY OF FUEL, THEY WILL BURN
COAL IN THAT PLANT TO GENERATE THEIR STEAM, TO GENERATE THAT
ENERGY. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN.
IF THIS PLANT IS BUILT, THIS REFINERY IS BUILT,
YOU WILL GET A LOWER GRADE OF FUEL OIL. NATURAL GAS THAT'S
GOING TO BE A BY-PRODUCT OF THIS PLANT, THIS' IN ITSELF IS
GOING TO CUT DOWN ON THE POLLUTION. IT'S POSSIBLE THIS
COMPANY, THIS REFINERY, IS GOING TO USE THEIR OWN PRODUCT
WHEN THEY GET THIS THING GOING TO REALLY RUN THEIR PLANT
OFF OF, AND IT WAS THE TESTIMONY HERE IF THEY USE THE NATURAL
GAS TO OPERATE ON, THE NAPTHAS AND WHATEVER ELSE THEY USE IN
THERE, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO CUT ONE-FOURTH ON THE POLLUTANTS.
SO, 1 THINK IF YOU GET YOUR HEAD IN -GEAR AND START THINKING
OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TEN YEARS FROM NOW, IF YOU'RE
GOING TO BE AROUND HERE, YOU WILL BE SITTING HERE WITH THE
SAME PLANT THAT YOU HAVE OVER HERE RIGHT NOW, AND IT WILL BE
GENERATING STEAM -- OR GENERATING ELECTRICITY THE SAME AS IT I
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1 NOW WITH A FUEL OIL THAT HAS MORE POLLUTANTS IN THE AIR THAN j
2 YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW.
3 AND WITH THIS REFINERY BEING BUILT IN HERE, SURE,
4 YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME KIND OF AIR POLLUTION COMING FROM
5 THIS REFINERY, SMALL AMOUNT, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE
6 CONTROLLED, BUT YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO HAVE FUEL BURNERS THAT'S
7 GOING TO CUT DOWN ON THE POLLUTANTS THAT YOU WILL BE GETTING
8 NOW AND GETTING IN THE FUTURE, SO YOU SHOULD BE THINKING A
9 LITTLE BIT.
10 CHAIRMAN WALKER: JUST A MINUTE. THIS IS NOT
11 ORGANIZED AS A DEBATE BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN THE
12 COMMUNITY. WE CAME DOWN HERE TO HEAR WHAT THE PEOPLE HAVE
13 TO SAY TO US. YOU CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER ALMOST ANY TIME.
14 SO, PLEASE ADDRESS THE REMARKS TO US. 1 F YOU HAVE ANY.
15 QUESTIONS YOU WISH TO HAVE ADDRESSED, PLEASE WRITE THEM
16 DOWN, AND WE WILL TRY TO GET THEM TO THE RIGHT PERSON AND
17 WE WILL ANSWER THEM, IF POSSIBLE. IF NOT, WE WILL PUT THEM
18 IN THE RECORD AS SUCH, BUT WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GET THROUGH
19 IF WE HAVE AN INTERNAL DEBATE.
20 GO AHEAD.
21 MR. LOGSTON: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, i THINK
22 RIGHT AT THAT 1 WILL SHUT IT OFF, AND THANKS FOR THE
23 OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAR HERE.
24 (APPLAUSE)
25 THANKS FOR THE INCONSIDERATE BOOS. IT SHOWS
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1 YOU'RE ENTITLED TO YOUR VIEWS.
2 (APPLAUSE)
3 CHAIRMAN WALKER: BEFORE WE GO ON TO THE NEXT
4 SPEAKER: ! SAID WE WOULD ACCEPT WRITTEN QUESTIONS. I HAVE
5 ONE QUESTION HERE THAT IS ADDRESSED GENERALLY, AND I'M NOT
6 SURE WE'RE PREPARED TO ANSWER IT, BUT I'LL PUT 1 T ON THE
7 RECORD:
8 "WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM EFFECT OF REFINERY
9 EMISSION ON THE PERSON WITH A RESPIRATORY DISEASE AND THOSE
10 ENGAGED IN VIGOROUS PHYSICAL ACTIVITY, HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETICS,
11 ET CETERA?"
12 I THINK THERE'S A GREAT DEAL WRITTEN ON THAT.
13 I'M NOT SURE WE'RE PREPARED TO GIVE A DEFINITIVE ANSWER HERE
14 TODAY.
15 MR. COVINGTON: I WOULD SUGGEST, MATT, IT'S A
16 QUESTION THAT I THINK WE NEED TO TALK TO. THERE ARE TWO OR
17 THREE OF THEM THAT HAVE COME UP HERE. AGAIN, WE'RE GOING
IS TO EXTEND THE INVITATION TO COME RAP WITH US OFF THE RECORD.
19 WE WOULD BE VERY GLAD TO SPEAK TO THAT QUESTION AND OTHERS
20 LIKE THAT, BUT IT WON'T HELP DEVELOP THE RECORD THAT WE'RE
21 LOOKING FOR RIGHT NOW.
22 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE ONE QUESTION THAT WAS
23 SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED TO MR. RICHARDSON. 1 WILL EDIT IT
24 SLIGHTLY. THE QUESTIONS ASKS IN THREE PARTS: ISN'T IT
25 TRUE THAT CONSTRUCTION TRADITIONALLY BRINGS IN OUTSIDE LABOR?
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1 DON'T REFINERIES GENERALLY RUN THEMSELVES? AND AREN'T THE
2 CONSTRUCTION WORKERS GOING TO BE TRANSFERRED FROM THE OUTSIDE?
*
3 I WILL ADDRESS THE QUESTION FOR THE RECORD. AND
4 IF MR. RICHARDSON WANTS TO REPLY, HE MAY. OTHERWISE, WE WILL
5 LET IT STAND ON THE RECORD.
6 I SEE NO ONE COMING FORWARD, SO 1 WILL ASK
7 SOMEONE ELSE FROM THE AUDIENCE. THE NEXT CARD .IS MR. R. L.
8 BISHOP. IS MR. BISHOP HERE?
9 WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS FOR
10 THE RECORD.'
n MR. BISHOP: MY NAME IS RICHARD BISHOP. 1
12 REPRESENT THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL. 1 HAVE BEEN A CHEMICAL
13 ENGINEER FOR ABOUT 50 OR 60 YEARS. I CAME HERE PRIMARILY
14 TO GET QUESTIONS ANSWERED. MOST HAVE BEEN ANSWERED. AS
15 FAR AS LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL SAYING ANYTHING, KEN SCHULTZ
16 DID THE JOB ADEQUATELY. THEREFORE, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE
17 ANY OF YOUR TIME WITH NONSENSE BECAUSE 1 AM GETTING MY
18 QUESTIONS ANSWERED.
19 (APPLAUSE)
20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
21 THE NEXT CARD I HAVE IS MR. CHARLES F.--I'M NOT
22 SURE I HAVE THIS NAME RIGHT--FEMELLEY --
23 MR. TROMBLEY: TROMBLEY, T-R-O-M-B-L-E-Y.
24 CHAIRMAN WALKER: T-R-O-M- --'
25 MR. TROMBLEY: B-L-E-Y.
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1 MR. CHAIRMAN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I'M CHUCK
2 TROMBLEY. I REPRESENT THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY BUILDING TRADES
3 COUNCIL. 1 LIVE IN ESCONDIDO. I WORKED IN THE NORTH COUNTY
4 FOR OVER 17 YEARS. MR. RICHARDSON HAS COVERED THE BULK OF
5 WHAT LABOR ISF INTERESTED IN IN THE NORTH COUNTY.
6 TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT WAS PUT BY.SOME
7 MEMBER IN THE AUDIENCE HERE, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY AT THIS
8 TIME THAT THE BUILDING INDUSTRY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY -- NOT
9 ONLY SAN DIEGO COUNTY, IT IS THE LARGEST INDUSTRY IN THE
10 STATE--WE ARE SUFFERING, AND WE ARE SUFFERING BADLY. YOU
11 HAVE HEARD THE ESTIMATE OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE UNEMPLOYED.
12 IT'S ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.
13 TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, WHOEVER THE QUESTIONER
14 WAS, WE HAVE AMPLE PEOPLE IN THIS AREA TO MAN THE JOB.
15 TALKING ABOUT 4,000,000 MAN HOURS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
16 TAKING PROPERTY THAT'S ADJACENT TO AN AIRPORT, A NOISE
17 POLLUTION AREA, IF YOU WILL, IN THAT CANYON, AND WE'RE
18 TALKING ABOUT PUTTING THAT PROPERTY ON THE PAYING ROLLS OF
19 TAXPAYERS, SO THIS SHOULD REDUCE YOUR TAXES. MY TAXES HAVE
20 DONE NOTHING BUT GONE UP IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. I HOPE
21 IT HASN'T THIS YEAR. BUT I DON'T SEE IT'S GOING TO BE FOR
22 THE RETIRED PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAPPED. WE HAVE MANY CONSTRUC-
23 TION PEOPLE RETIRED WHO ARE TRAPPED BY THIS INCESSANT
24 RAISING OF TAXES. WE ARE VERY INTERESTED IN THAT. AND
25 THESE THINGS, I THINK, ARE PARAMOUNT TO GOOD LIVING, TO
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CLEAN AIR.
THERE ISN'T A PERSON IN HERE THAT DOESN'T WANT
THE SAME THING. WE'RE LOOKING AT THE PICTURE FROM DIFFERENT
ANGLES. WE ALL WANT CLEAN AIR, WE ALL WANT CLEAN WATER, WE
WANT A GOOD ENVIRONMENT, AND WE WANT A GOOD LIVING. I HAVE
NEVER SEEN AN ECONOMY THAT WAS A PENNY-PINCHING ECONOMY THAT
WASN'T RAIZED TO THE SURFACE. JUST SCRUTINIZE THE CONDITIONS
AROUND THE WORLD WHERE YOUR LABOR DOESN'T GET ANY KIND OF
MONEY.
AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK -- I MEAN RETORT I THINK,
MR. SOMMERVILLE. I HAVE NEVER WORKED FOR A BANKRUPT
CORPORATION VERY LONG AT ALL. THEY JUST DON'T PAY ANY MONEY.
ANY EMPLOYER I EVER WORKED FOR HAD TO MAKE MONEY. THIS IS
PART OF THE AMERICAN SYSTEM. AND AS FAR AS THE ATTORNEY
FOR COMMON CAUSE AND THE GENTLEMAN FROM LEUCADIA, I WOULD
LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT 80 PERCENT OF THE VEHICLES INVOLVED ARE
ALREADY HERE IN THE AREA, THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE 180
JOBS CREATED OTHER THAN CONSTRUCTION JOBS WHEN THIS THING
IS FINISHED. SO, THESE CARS ARE ALREADY HERE. WHAT ARE WE
WORRIED ABOUT ON THE ADDED POLLUTION FROM'VEHICLES IN THE
AREA?
THESE ARE A FEW OF THE COMMENTS. ABOUT 80
PERCENT OF MY COMMENTS WERE TAKEN UP BY MR. RICHARDSON, AND
SO I'LL MAKE IT VERY BRIEF AND SHORT. I WOULD LIKE VERY MUCH
TO SEE THAT THIS PERMIT BE GRANTED TO MACARIO TO BUILD THIS
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1 PLANT BECAUSE I THINK IT WILL BE AN ASSET TO THE COMMUNITY.
2 IT WILL BE AN ASSET TO EVERY PERSON IN THIS ROOM. THE FUEL
3 TECHNICIANS, THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN GIVING US THE BUSINESS
4 ON OIL, WE MIGHT HAVE THAT RECUR ANY DAY NOW, AND WE SHOULD
5 LOOK FOR DEVELOPMENT IN A SANE AND ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE
6 MANNER. THANK YOU.
7 (APPLAUSE)
8 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I OBSERVE THE HOUR. IT IS NOW
9 NOON. AND AS WE ANNOUNCED, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A NOON BREAK
10 UNTIL 1:30. WE HAVE A LARGE DECK OF CARDS LEFT HERE.
11 MR. COVINGTON HAS STATED HE WILL, ON AN OFF-THE-RECORD
12 SESSION, TAKE QUESTIONS AND GIVE SUCH ANSWERS AS WE'RE ABLE
13 TO AT THIS TIME.
14 SO, THE FORMAL HEARING WILL NOW STAND IN RECESS,
15 AND WE WILL TRY TO RECONVENE PROMPTLY AT 1:30.
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SATURDAY AFTERNOON SESSION
AUGUST 23, 1975, 1:30 P.M.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THE HOUR HAS ARRIVED TO
CONTINUE WITH THIS HEARING.
AT THE COMMENCEMENT OF THE HEARING THIS MORNING
AT 9:30 WE HAD A RATHER LONG PRESENTATION OF THE BACKGROUND
AND THE REASONS WE ARE HERE. LOOKING AROUND THE ROOM, IT
LOOKS LIKE 1 AM SEEING FAMILIAR FACES. IF THERE IS ANY
NEED TO, WE CAN REPEAT PART OF THAT. BUT IN THE INTEREST
OF TIME, 1 WOULD REFRAIN FROM DOING SO UNLESS SOMEBODY WANTS
TO KNOW WHAT THIS HEARING IS ALL ABOUT.
ALL RIGHT, WE DO HAVE A COUPLE OF ANNOUNCEMENTS
TO MAKE HERE, HOUSEKEEPING SORT OF THINGS. A REQUEST HAS
15 I BEEN MADE AS TO HOW A COPY OF THIS RECORD CAN BE REVIEWED
i
16 LOCALLY. ORDINARILY, THE AGENCY ONLY HAS COPIES IN ITS
17 REGIONAL OFFICE, BUT A DECISION HAS BEEN MADE THAT AN EXTRA
18 COPY WILL BE PREPARED AND MADE AVAILABLE IN THE CARSLBAD
19 CITY LIBRARY. IT WILL TAKE ABOUT TWO WEEKS. LET'S SAY
20 ABOUT TWO WEEKS TO GET IT PREPARED, READY, AND AVAILABLE
21 AND DOWN TO YOU. WE WILL UNDERTAKE TO DO THIS.
22 WE HAVE QUITE A NUMBER OF CARDS TO BE HANDLED
23 HERE. AND AS IT WAS ANNOUNCED AND RECORDED IN OUR LITTLE
24 i HANDOUT, WHEN WE HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN ONE GROUP
25 AS AGAINST THE OTHER GROUPS, WE WILL DOUBLE UP ON THAT GROUP
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1 j SO, DURING THE AFTERNOON WE WILL DOUBLE UP ON THE UNAFFILIATEQ
2 PRIVATE CITIZENS AND TAKE TWO OF THOSE TO ONE OF THE OTHERS. j
3 WE WILL, HOWEVER, TRY TO OTHERWISE KEEP IT TO THE ORDER OF
4 PROCEEDINGS THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED.
5 YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO?
6 MR. COVINGTON: FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION: WE
7 HAVE RECEIVED FROM A FEW OF YOU SOME WRITTEN QUESTIONS WHICH
8 WE WANT TO GET TO AND ANSWER. AS WE HAVE EXPLAINED PRE-
9 V10USLY, WE WILL NOT ATTEMPT TO ON THE RECORD ANSWER YOUR
10 SEVERAL INDIVIDUAL QUESTIONS THAT HAVE COME UP. WE ARE FOR
11 THE PURPOSE OF THE RECORD GETTING YOUR SPECIFIC TESTIMONY
12 TO ENABLE US TO MAKE THE BEST POSSIBLE DECISION.. WE WILL
13 LATER IN THE AFTERNOON TAKE ANOTHER BREAK, AND I WILL EXTEND
14 THE INVITATION ONCE AGAIN FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE QUESTIONS
15 TO SORT OF GATHER AROUND HERE. AND IF WE CAN THEN ANSWER
16 YOUR QUESTIONS, WE WILL DO SO.
17 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
18 THE NEXT CARD I HAVE IS MR. STANLEY WALLEN.
19 MR. STANLEY WALLEN OF LEUCAD1A, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING
20 HIMSELF.
21 I SEE NO RESPONSE. WE WILL CALL THESE CARDS
22 AGAIN.
23 THE NEXT CARD IS MR. MARK NELSON, CARLSBAD,
24 REPRESENTING CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE.
25 MR. NELSON: MR. WALKER, AS I INDICATED THIS
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MORNING, WE WANTED TO HAVE VICKY ZAMORA SPEAK NEXT FROM OUR
GROUP.
CHAIRMAN'WALKER: EXCUSE ME?
MR. NELSON: AS i TOLD YOU, WE WANT TO HAVE
VICKY ZAMORA AS OUR NEXT SPEAKER.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S CORRECT, YOU DID.
VICKY ZAMORA, THE OTHERS ARE DEFERRING TO YOU.
WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND WHERE YOU'RE
FROM FOR THE RECORD.
MS. ZAMORA: MY NAME is VICKY ZAMORA, AND i LIVE
AT 3557 MADISON STREET IN CARLSBAD. I AM SPEAKING ON BEHALF
OF THE RESEARCH TEAM OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE. THE
RESEARCH TEAM IS A 12-MEMBER FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE THAT
HAS MET WEEKLY SINCE OCTOBER 1974. OUR RESEARCH CENTERS
AROUND THE EFFECTS THE REFINERY WILL HAVE ON OUR CITY AND
COUNTY. AND AS A RESULT OF OUR RESEARCH, AND AS A MEANS
OF INFORMING THE PUBLIC, WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL FACT SHEETS
PRINTED FOR PUBLIC DISTRIBUTION. I WOULD LIKE TO ENTER
THE FACT SHEETS INTO THE PUBLIC RECORD AT THIS TIME.
THE RESEARCH TEAM FULLY ENDORSES THE RESOLUTION
THAT CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE WILL PRESENT, AND STRESSES A
NEED FOR A DELAY IN THE EPA PERMIT DECISION. A DECISION
BY YOUR AGENCY SHOULD BE BASED SOLELY UPON THE MOST RECENT
AND REALiABLE INFORMATION. AT PRESENT, YOU ARE BASING YOUR
TENTATIVE APPROVAL UPON INSUFFICIENT, OUTDATED INFORMATION
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1 AND ASSUMPTIONS. THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT IS
2 PREPARING A MORE ACCURATE AIR ANALYSIS AT THIS TIME, AS YOU
3 HEARD FROM MR. SOMMERVILLE. AND WE ALSO ENDORSE THEIR REQUEST
I
4 FOR A DELAY IN YOUR DECISION. j
5 ALSO, U.C. SAN DIEGO PROFESSOR KENT WILSON IS
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6 DEVELOPING A 'STATISTICAL MODEL FOR THE PREDICTION OF AREA-
7 BY-AREA CHANGES IN OX1DANT AIR QUALITY RESULTING FROM
8 STATIONARY SOURCES IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. HE SHOULD ALSO BE
9 CONSULTED BEFORE A DECISION IS MADE.
10 CARLSBAD IS IN A DELICATE LOCATION WHERE AIR
]] CONTAMINANTS ARE CONCERNED. THE DISPERSION OF ATMOSPHERIC
12 CONTAMINANTS IT DETERMINED MAINLY BY WINDS AND THE HEIGHT
13 INTO WHICH CONTAMINANTS ARE MIXED. WIND RECORDS FOR THE
14 AREA THUS FAR HAVE BEEN LIMITED TO THOSE MADE OVER A FIVE-YEAF
15 PERIOD ALONG THE COAST AT THE CITY OF OCEANSIDE DURING THE
16 YEARS 1934 TO 1938. AND, MORE RECENTLY, A FIVE-YEAR STUDY
17 WAS DONE AT PALOMAR AIRPORT EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE AIRPORT
18 EXPANSION. THOSE STUDIES SHOW THAT CARLSBAD'S WIND VELOCITY
19 1S 0 TO 4 KNOTS PER HOUR 48.96 PERCENT OF THE TIME AND 0 TO
20 13 KNOTS PER HOUR 96.63 PERCENT OF THE TIME. 1 HAVE ALSO
21 INCLUDED THE WIND ROSE CHART AS PART OF MY PRESENTATI ON INTO
22 THE PUBLIC RECORD.
23 DURING THE MAJORITY OF THE YEAR, THE MARINE AIR
24 LAYER IS SHALLOW AND THE SEA BREEZE WEAK, THEREBY LESSENING
25 THE MIXING VOLUME, AND RESULTING IN POOR DISPERSION OF
I
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1 POLLUTANTS AND AN EXTREME POTENTIAL FOR HIGH AIR POLLUTION.
2 . IT HAS BEEN RECORDED THAT CARLSBAD HAS AIR
3 INVERSION 340 -DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR. DR. JOSEPH BEHAR,
4 ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA'S PROJECT
5 CLEAN AIR HAS STATED THAT SAN DIEGO COUNTY IS MORE PRONE TO
6 AIR POLLUTION THAN ANY OTHER SPOT IN THE NATION BECAUSE OF
7 THE UNIQUE WEATHER CONDITIONS. MAINLY THE AIR INVERSION
8 FACTOR. BEHAR SAID THAT SAN DIEGO HAS MORE INVERSIONS THAN
9 LOS ANGELES. HE ADDED THAT THE AREA SHOULD TAKE THE MOST
10 STRINGENT ACTIONS TO KEEP DOWN THE EMISSION OF POLLUTANTS
11 BY SEVERE CONTROL OF STATIONARY SOURCES.
•
12 AS A RESULT OF THESE UNIQUE WEATHER CONDITIONS
13 IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY FROM APRIL THROUGH JUNE 1974, THE FEDERAL
14 HEALTH STANDARDS FOR OXIDANTS WERE EQUALED OR EXCEEDED FOR
15 59 OUT OF 90 DAYS. YOUR OWN AGENCY, THE EPA, STATED AT THE
16 CLEAN AIR CONGRESS IN WASHINGTON, D. C., THAT "SAN DIEGO
17 COUNTY HAS THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL OF AIR POLLUTION EPISODES
18 OF ANY AIR BASIN IN THE NATION."
19 THE RESEARCH TEAM ALSO FEELS THAT THE EPA HAS A
20 RESPONSIBILITY TO EXPLORE THE FEASIBILITY OF ALTERNATIVE
21 SITES WHERE THE LAND USE WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE AND
22 POSSIBLY THE AIR QUALITY IMPACT LESS.
23 IN CONCLUSION, I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU, AS
!
24 OFFICIALS OF THE EPA, .THAT, IN A SENSE, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE
25 FOR THE VERY AIR WE BREATHE. TO APPROVE THIS PERMIT BASED ON
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1 INADEQUATE DATA AND FAULTY ASSUMPTIONS IS TO CONTRIBUTE TO
2 THE DEGRADATION OF OUR AIR QUALITY AND, THEREFORE, OUR VERY
3 EXISTENCE.
4 (APPLAUSE)
5 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
6 DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?
7 DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WISH TO OFFER TO US?
8 A COPY OF MISS ZAMORA'S REMARKS AND ATTACHMENTS
9 WILL BE MARKED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS RECORD AS EXHIBIT 18.
10 MR. C. E. KOOMS FROM PLAYA AMEDA, SAN DIEGO
11 BUILDING TRADES.
12 NO APPARENT RESPONSE.
13 MR. JOEL PRESCOTT OF CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING
14 HIMSELF.
15 MR. JAMES THOMAS.
16 TED ACKERMAN.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE
18 PANEL, AT THIS TIME, ON BEHALF OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE,
I
19 1 PRESENT THE FOLLOWING RESOLUTION.
20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU ARE FROM CARLSBAD,
21 CALIFORNIA?
22 MR. ACKERMAN: CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA. .
23 SUBJECT: REQUEST TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
24 AGENCY FOR A DELAY ON A PERMIT DECISION ON THE PROPOSED
25 MACARIO OIL REFINERY.
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1 WHEREAS, A LOGICAL APPRAISAL OF THE IMPACT OF
2 THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY UPON THE AIR QUALITY OF
3 CARLSBAD AND NORTH SAN DI'EGO COUNTY TERRITORY IN GENERAL
SHOULD INCLUDE THE ADDITIVE IMPACT OF ALL OTHER PENDING OR
5 POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION SOURCES, AND PARTICULARLY THOSE
6 RELATED TO THE OPERATION OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY, SUCH AS
THE INCREASE IN OIL DELIVERY AT THE ENCINA TANKER TERMINAL,
ADDITIONS TO OIL TANK STORAGE CAPACITY, INCREASE IN POWER
GENERATION AT THE ENCINA POWER PLANT, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT
10 OF INDUSTRIES AT THE PROPOSED JAPATUL CORPORATION INDUSTRIAL
11 PARK FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROCESSING OIL REFINERY BY-PRODUCTS
12 AND
13 WHEREAS, ADEQUATE AND UNBIASED AIR POLLUTION
14 ANALYSES CONTINUE TO _BE A PROBLEM EVEN WITH THE LONG-
15 ESTABLISHED PROGRAMS IN AREAS SUCH AS THE LOS ANGELES BASIN
16 AND
17 WHEREAS, THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTI ON .CONTROL
18 DISTRICT FULLY REALIZES THAT THERE IS A NEED FOR A HIGHLY
19 DETAILED AIR POLLUTION ANALYSIS PRIOR TO ANY PERMIT DECISION
20 ON THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY, AND HAS THEREFORE
21 RECOMMENDED A DELAY BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION A*GENCY
22 ON A PERMIT DECISION UNTIL AFTER SUCH AN ANALYSIS CAN BE
23 FINALIZED BY THE APCD AND
24 WHEREAS, CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE, ON THE BASIS
25 THAT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS MAY PROVIDE INFORMATION
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1 IMPORTANT TO DECISION-MAKING, QUESTIONS THE URGENCY OF ANY
2 AGENCY MAKING A PERMIT DECISION ON A PROJECT PRIOR TO THE
3 PREPARATION OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT AND THE COMPLE-
4 TION OF PUBLIC HEARINGS ON SAID REPORT AND
5 WHEREAS, PROPERTY DAMAGE, CONSISTING OF SPOTTING
6 OF AUTOMOBILE PAINT HAS OCCURRED AS A RESULT OF AN INCREASE
7 IN FALLOUT IN THE VICINITY OF AND FOR SOME DISTANCE INLAND
8 FROM THE ENC1NA POWER PLANT SINCE UNIT NO. 4 WAS PLACED IN
9 OPERATION, AND MAY BE AN INDICATION THAT ADDITIONAL DAMAGING
10 FALLOUT MIGHT OCCUR FROM THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY;
H NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED THAT THE
12 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY BE REQUESTED TO DELAY A
13 PERMIT DECISION ON THE PROPOSED MACARiO OIL REFINERY UNTIL
14 SUCH TIME AS THE FOLLOWING ITEMS HAVE BEEN FINALIZED:
15 1. A CONSIDERATION TO THE FULLEST PRACTICAL
16 EXTENT BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECT I ON AGENCY OF THE
17 ADDITIVE IMPACT TO THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY AIR
18 POLLUTION OF ALL OTHER PENDING OR POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION
19 SOURCES, AND PARTICULARLY THOSE RELATED TO THE OPERATION OF
20 THE PROPOSED REFINERY, SUCH AS THE INCREASE IN OIL DELIVERY
21 AT THE ENC1NA TANKER TERMINAL, ADDITIONS TO OIL TANK STORAGE
22 CAPACITY, INCREASE IN POWER GENERATION AT THE.ENCINA POWER
23 PLANT, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF INDUSTRIES AT THE PROPOSED
24 JAPATUL CORPORATION INDUSTRIAL PARK FOR THE PURPOSE OF
25 PROCESSING OIL REFINERY BY-PRODUCTS.
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1 2. FINAL ANALYSIS BY THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION ']
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2 CONTROL DISTRICT ON THE HIGHLY DETAILED AIR POLLUTION ANALYSIS
3 PROPOSED BY THIS AGENCY.
4 3. MACARIO OIL REFINERY ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT
5 REPORT PREPARATION AND PUBLIC HEARING COMPLETION.
6 4. ANALYSIS AND SOURCE DETERMINATION OF THE
7 FALLOUT THAT HAS CAUSED PAINT DAMAGE TO AUTOMOBILES IN THE
8 VICINITY OF AND FOR SOME DISTANCE INLAND FROM THE ENCINA
9 POWER PLANT SINCE UNIT NO. k WAS PLACED IN OPERATION. A REPORT
10 ON THIS FALLOUT WILL BE SENT TO THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION
11 CONTROL DISTRICT.
12 THIS RESOLUTION WAS ADOPTED BY CARLSBAD
13 COMMUNITY CAUSE EXECUTIVE BOARD ON AUGUST THE 18TH, 1975,
14 AND WAS RATIFIED BY A MEETING OF THE MEMBERS OF THE
15 ASSOCIATION ON AUGUST THE 21ST, 1975.
16 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. ACKERMAN. DO
17 YOU WISH TO HAND IN A COPY OF THE RESOLUTION SO WE CAN MAKE
18 IT PART OF THE RECORD?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: YES.
20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
21 DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION, MR. COVINGTON?
22 MR. COVINGTON: YES, i DO.
i
23 | CHAIRMAN WALKER: FOR THE RECORD, THE RESOLUTION
24 WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT NO. 19.
I
25 I MR. ACKERMAN: NO. 19. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
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MR. COV1NGTON: MR. ACKERMAN, ARE YOU AN
OFFICER OF THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE?
MR. ACKERMAN: YES, I AM A MEMBER OF THE BOARD
OF DIRECTORS AND ACTING TREASURER.
MR. COVINGTON: i WANTED TO KNOW THE CONTEXT
IN WHICH YOU WERE SPEAKING OR ASKING QUESTIONS.
TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAS THE ORGANIZATION HAD AN
OPPORTUNITY YET TO REVIEW THE TECHNICAL ANALYSIS AND THE
MODELING THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS
UNDERTAKEN, AND HAVE YOU DONE IT WITH THOSE PEOPLE YOU FEEL
QUALIFIED TO CONDUCT SUCH A REVIEW?
MR. ACKERMAN: THAT HAS BEEN A FUNCTION OF OUR
RESEARCH COMMITTEE, AND WE DO HAVE QUALIFIED PEOPLE ON THAT
COMMITTEE THAT HAVE CARRIED OUT THIS STUDY.
MR. COVINGTON: WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR IS -- AND
PERHAPS YOU'RE NOT THE INDIVIDUAL I OUGHT TO ASK; BUT IF
YOUR ORGANIZATION HAS REVIEWED OUR MODELING EFFORT AND OUR
ANALYSIS, DO YOU HAVE THE RESULTS OF THAT THAT YOU COULD
GIVE TO US W.ITH SOME PRECISION WHERE YOU FEEL IT'S INADEQUATE,
IF IT IS INADEQUATE?
MR. ACKERMAN: WELL, ONLY IN THAT WE FEEL VERY
MUCH LIKE THE FIRST GENTLEMAN THAT SPOKE THIS MORNING FROM
LEUCADIA, THAT THERE ARE SO MANY ADDITIVE SOURCES THAT ARE
NOT CONSIDERED WHEN YOU'RE TAKING YOUR REFINERY AS A UNIT.
MR. COVINGTON: COULD SOMEONE IN YOUR ORGANIZATION
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1 BE MORE PRECISE? WE FEEL, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE HAVE
2 RECOGNIZED -- AND I'M NOT ATTEMPTING TO GET INTO A DEBATE ON
3 THIS. IT'S NOT MY PURPOSE. BUT RATHER WE HAVE RECOGNIZED
4 THE POTENTIAL IMPACT OF ENCINA ITSELF IN OUR EFFORT, AND I'M
5 NOT SURE WHETHER THIS HAS BEEN UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYONE.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I UNDERSTOOD THAT, IN TALKING
7 PREVIOUSLY WITH MR. -SW1CKER, YOU PEOPLE NATURALLY HAVE THE
8 REFINERY AND ALL THE INFORMATION. ALSO, THE ENCINA POWER
9 PLANT. YOU HAD A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TANKER TERMINAL, BUT NO
10 PRECISE KNOWLEDGE. AND AS 1 UNDERSTAND IT, THERE WAS NOTHING
n DONE IN THE WAY OF ADDITIONAL USE OF THE TANKER TERMINAL IN
12 LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT YOU WILL HAVE ABOUT TWICE AS MANY
13 TANKERS COMING IN BECAUSE OF THE REFINERY.
14 ALSO, THERE WAS NOTHING -- NO CONSIDERATION, AS
15 I RECALL -- IN FACT, NO KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME OF THE
16 INDUSTRIAL PARK.
17 MR. COVINGTON: i WANT TO CONVEY TO YOU AND TO
18 ALL, YOU KNOW, NO UNBENDING, UNYIELDING PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP
19 WITH RESPECT TO THE MODELING ANALYSIS WHICH WE HAVE DONE.
20 I AM MERELY EARNESTLY TRYING TO SOLICIT FROM YOU OR ANYONE
21 WHO HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW OUR TECHNICAL WORK
22 YOUR CRITIQUE AS TO WHETHER IT IS DEFICIENT IN SOME RESPECT.
23 AND IF YOU HAVE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, WE CAN CONSIDER IT.
24 WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANYTHING YET THAT I KNOW OF,
25 AND I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT. AS AN OFFICER OF THE
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ORGANIZATION, IF YOU HAVE IT, CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT IT?
CAN YOU GET IT TO ME?
MR. ACKERMAN: I'M SURE WE CAN GET IT TO YOU.
AND I UNDERSTAND THERE IS A 30-DAY PERIOD THAT WE HAVE,
AND WE WILL ENDEAVOR TO GET YOU THIS INFORMATION.
MR. COVINGTON: ONE LAST QUESTION: • i TAKE IT
FROM THE TONE OF SOME REMARKS THAT I HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING
THAT YOU'RE RELYING -- OR I WOULD BE LED TO BELIEVE YOU'RE
RELYING HEAVILY ON THE ANALYSIS DONE BY THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY
APCD, WHICH IS WELL AND GOOD. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE
COMMUNITY CAUSE POSITION WOULD BE IF THAT ANALYSIS SHOULD
TURN OUT TO INDICATE NO INTERFERENCE WITH THE STANDARDS?
MR. ACKERMAN: WELL, CERTAINLY, WE AT LEAST FEEL
THAT THE ANALYSIS SHOULD BE MADE BECAUSE WE FEEL THAT RIGHT
NOW THERE HASN'T BEEN PERHAPS AN ADEQUATE APPRAISAL OF OUR
AIR POLLUTION SITUATION IN THIS PARTICULAR BASIN.
MR. COVINGTON: i WAS MERELY TRYING TO ASCERTAIN
THE EXTENT TO WHICH YOU WERE CONCERNED WITH AIR POLLUTION AS
OPPOSED TO OTHER FACTORS.
MR. ACKERMAN: WELL, OF COURSE, AIR POLLUTION IS
THE TOPIC OF THE DAY, AND THIS IS WHAT I TRIED TO CONFINE
MYSELF TO.
(APPLAUSE)
MR. COVINGTON: THANK YOU, MR. ACKERMAN.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. ACKERMAN.
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MR. C. M. LAFFOON OF MERRITT LANE, EL CAJON,
CALIFORNIA, AND YOU'RE REPRESENTING SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC.
MR. LAFFOON: MR. CHAIRMAN, MY NAME is
C. M. LAFFOON. I'M A SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE SAN DIEGO
GAS 5 ELECTRIC COMPANY.
BEFORE I PROVIDE SOME BACKGROUND INFORMATION, I
WOULD LIKE THE RECORD, HOWEVER, TO EXPRESS MY SURPRISE,
SHOCK AND, YES, EVEN THE INDIGNATION THAT AN OFFICIAL OF A
LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY IN PRESENTING A STATEMENT IN A
PRESUMABLY OFFICIAL CAPACITY WOULD INCLUDE UNSUBSTANTIATED
ALLEGATIONS THAT OUR COMPANY ISSUES FALSE INFORMATION WHEN
IT SUITS OUR PURPOSES TO DO SO.
CAPPLAUSE)
MR. SOMMERVILLE: CAN i RESPOND TO THAT?
CHAIRMAN WALKER: NOT AT THIS POINT.
(APPLAUSE)
WAIT A MINUTE. LET'S LET THIS GENTLEMAN MAKE
HIS STATEMENT. IF YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO MAKE, LET ME KNOW,
AND WE Wl LL. --
MR. SOMMERVILLE: THE PROBLEM is HERE: IF THE
CHAIR ALLOWS HIM TO MAKE A CERTAIN STATEMENT
CHAIRMAN WALKER: i REALIZE THAT.
MR. SOMMERVILLE: AND i WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT
CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL SEE TO IT THAT
EVERYBODY GETS FAIR TREATEMENT. NOW, LET THE GENTLEMAN
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MAKE HIS STATEMENT, AND WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
MR. LAFFOON: TO GIVE YOU BACKGROUND INFORMATION,
THE MACARIO REFINERY, WHICH IS THE SUBJECT OF THIS PROCEEDING
IS PART OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY'S LONG-RANGE
PROGRAM TO CARRY OUT ITS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE FOR THE
COMMUNITY WHICH IT SERVES, THE ENERGY WHICH THE COMMUNITY
WISHES TO HAVE. EARLY IN 1970, OUR COMPANY VOLUNTARILY
CHANGED ITS FUEL OIL SUPPLY FROM WHAT WAS THEN THE CALIFORNIA
DOMESTIC SUPPLY TO LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, WHICH WE ARE NOW
USING. IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT THAT CHANGE, WE REQUESTED THE
AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT TO IMPOSE A REGULATION
REQUIRING SUCH USE, AND WE MADE THAT REQUEST IN ORDER THAT
WE COULD THEN COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL IMPORT REGULATIONS
WHICH WERE REQUIRED IN ORDER TO PROCURE THAT TYPE OF FUEL OIL.
AS HAS BEEN STATED HERE PREVIOUSLY, LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL
AT THAT TIME, AND STILL ESSENTIALLY TODAY, MUST BE
MANUFACTURED FROM LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL. AND, AS HAS BEEN
MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL EXISTS IN LIMITED
SUPPLIES AND IN DECREASING SUPPLIES.
OUR COMPANY PURCHASED THE PROPERTY ON WHICH THIS
REFINERY IS PROPOSED TO BE BUILT IN THE EARLY 1970'S IN ORDER
TO BE PREPARED, IF IT BECAME NECESSARY, TO INCLUDE ON IT
FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITIES, AND PERHAPS FACILITIES TO RECEIVE
AND STORE LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS. AT THE TIME, THERE WAS A
PROSPECT WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO SECURE LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS
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1 FROM ALASKA. AT THE MOMENT IT DOES NOT APPEAR WE WILL BE
2 ABLE TO DO SO DIRECTLY, SO WE CURRENTLY ARE NOT ACTIVELY
3 ANTICIPATING LNG STORAGE ON THIS SITE.
4 AT THE TIME OF THE PROPERTY PURCHASE, THERE WAS
5 EVERY INDICATION THAT IN ORDER TO CONTINUE TO QUALIFY FOR
6 RECEIVING LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL THAT IT COULD WELL BE
7 NECESSARY TO ESTABLISH A FOREIGN TRADE ZONE AT THIS SITE,
8 AND WE MADE PRELIMINARY APPLICATION AND INVESTIGATION WITH
9 THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT TO RECEIVE SUCH AN ASSIGNMENT.
10 HOWEVER, WE DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE THAT STEP AT THAT TIME
I] BECAUSE WE WERE ABLE TO SECURE BY CONTRACT THE LOW-SULPHUR
\2 FUEL OIL RESIDUAL PRODUCT PRODUCED BY THE HAWAIIAN INDEPENDENT
13 REF.INERY IN HONOLULU, WHICH WAS THEN NEAR1NG COMPLETION OF
14 ITS CONSTRUCTION. AND WHEN IT WENT INTO SERVICE, ITS
15 RESIDUAL OUTPUT WAS DEVOTED EXCLUSIVELY TO OUR SUPPLY.
16 WE WERE ALSO FORTUNATE AT THAT TIME TO SECURE
17 A SECONDARY SOURCE OF LOW-SULPHUR RESIDUAL FROM THE TOSORO
18 REFINERY IN ALASKA. THE COOK INLET CRUDE IS LOW-SULPHUR.
19 IT'S DECLINING IN QUANTITY, BUT IT IS AT THE MOMENT ONE OF
20 OUR SIGNIFICANT SUPPLIERS.
21 AS THE WORLD PICTURE CHANGED ON THE SUPPLY OF
22 CRUDE OIL, IT BECAME INCREASINGLY APPARENT THAT IF OUR
23 COMMUNITY WAS TO HAVE A SECURED SUPPLY OF FUEL WE HAD TO
24 TAKE- SOME ACTION TO PROTECT THE COMMUNITY'S INTEREST.
25 (LAUGHTER BY ONE INDIVIDUAL)
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1 MR. LAFFOON: MAY I PROCEED?
2 CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU MAY PROCEED. GO AHEAD.
3 MR. LAFFOON: THERE ARE ESSENTIALLY NO FACILITIES
4 TO TAKE THE CRUDE OIL WHICH IS DUE TO COME TO THE WEST COAST
5 IN THE 1977-78 PERIOD FROM THE NORTH SLOPE OF ALASKA, WHICH
6 HAS TOO HIGH A SULPHUR CONTENT TO BE USED, AND IT WAS THIS
7 MOTIVATION THAT LED US, IN ASSOCIATION WITH PACIFIC RESOURCES,
8 TO CONDUCT AND INITIATE THE STUDY THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING
9 HERE TODAY IN THE FORM OF THE MACARIO REFINERY.
,0 WHEN WE PICKED THE SITE ON THE BASIS OF THE
11 THEN-KNOWN KNOWLEDGE, WE WERE CONVINCED IN OUR MIND THAT IT
12 WAS THEN AN APPROPRIATE SITE FOR A FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY.
13 ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WITHIN OUR ORGANIZATION WHEN WE LAUNCHED
14 THIS PROGRAM IS WHAT SHALL WE CALL IT? BECAUSE, AS YOU
15 PROBABLY -- 1 HOPE YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED THIS IS A FUELS-
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PROCESSING FACILITY. BUT THERE WAS CONCERN IF WE CALLED IT
WHAT IT REALLY WAS WE WOULD BE ACCUSED OF DECEIT, AND SO WE
CHOSE TO CALL IT A REFINERY. BUT WE ARE INSISTENT THAT ITS
PURPOSE IS DEDICATED TO PROVIDE CLEAN FUELS FOR THE SAN
DIEGO AREA.
DURING THE ENERGY CRISIS, WHICH WE HAVE JUST
COME THROUGH, I HOPE YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE SAN DIEGO GAS £
ELECTRIC COMPANY WAS RECOGNIZED BY THE REGULATORY AGENCIES,
FEDERAL AND STATE, AS BEING ONE OF THE FEW UTILITIES THAT HAD
BEEN __ HAD FORESIGHT TO SECURE ADEQUATE SUPPLIES. AND WE
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1 DID HAVE AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY DURING THAT PERIOD WHEN OTHER
2 UTILITIES DID NOT.
3 WE FOUND FROM THAT EXPERIENCE THAT CONTRACTS
4 ARE VALUABLE BUT CONTRACTS ARE NOT A COMPLETE ASSURANCE THAT
5 ONE WILL RECEIVE THE SUPPLY THAT IS COVERED BY IT, AND WE
6 HAD EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HAD THE CRISIS GONE ON
7 FURTHER, ALLOCATED FUEL WOULD HAVE GONE TO OTHER AREAS. IT
8 IS FOR THIS REASON THAT WE BELIEVE THAT OUR SERVICE TERRITORY
9 SAN DIEGO, WHICH IS COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY LOCAL ENERGY
10 SOURCE--SAN DIEGO HAS NO ENERGY SOURCE OF ITS OWN--THAT IT
11 WOULD BE WELL-SERVED BY HAVING IN ITS AREA A FUEL-PROCESSING
12 FACILITY OF THE TYPE THAT IS PLANNED HERE.
13 . THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL QUESTIONS RAISED TODAY
14 CONCERNING THE INDUSTRIAL PARK, AND I WOULD LIKE TO REFRESH
15 YOUR MEMORY. THE LOCATION IN WHICH THE REFINERY WAS PROPOSED
16 TO BE BUILT WAS IN THE COUNTY. WE INITIATED ANNEXATION
17 PROCEEDINGS TO HAVE IT ANNEXED TO THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. AS
18 WE PROCEEDED THROUGH THE REGULATORY PROCESS BEFORE THE LOCAL
19 AGENCY FORMATION COMMISSION, A COURT DECISION INFLUENCED
20 AND RENDERED AN OPINION THAT IN ORDER TO ANNEX THAT PROPERTY
21 WE HAD TO HAVE A PLAN FOR THE TOTAL PROPERTY.
22 A LARGE PORTION OF THE PROPERTY IS CURRENTLY
'23 WITHIN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. WE HAVE PROCEEDED TO DEVELOP
24 A PLAN FOR THE REMAINING PROPERTY, WHICH HAS BEEN REFERRED
25 TO AS AN INDUSTRIAL PARK. THIS IS AN EFFORT TO COMPLY WITH
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1 THE REGULATIONS. I WOULD REMIND YOU THAT THE PROPERTY WHICH
2 IS BEING PLANNED FOR IS WITHIN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD, AND
3 NOTHING CAN BE BUILT ON THAT INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT DOES NOT
4 MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CITY OF CARLSBAD.
5 THERE IS ONE OTHER FACTOR I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE
6 YOU KEEP IN MIND. THERE WAS A MENTION OF THE FACT THAT
7 PERHAPS THE REFINERY SHOULD USE FOR ITS OWN PURPOSES THE
8 SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT MIGHT BE PRODUCED. WE ARE ALL
9 AWARE OF THE DECREASING SUPPLY OF NATURAL GAS, AND THE
10 STATE AND FEDERAL ORGANIZATIONS ARE GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS
11 NOW OF ESTABLISHING PRIORITIES TO DETERMINE WHO IN FACT IS
12 GOING TO RECEIVE NATURAL GAS. ONE OF THE CRITERIA THAT IS
13 GENERALLY USED IN MAKING THAT DETERMI NAT I ON IS THAT THE
14 PERSON WHO CAN WITH ONLY GREAT DIFFICULTY USE AN ALTERNATE
15 FUEL SHOULD CONTINUE TO RECEIVE NATURAL GAS. BY AND LARGE
16 THIS PRODUCES FOR THE DOMESTIC CUSTOMER, THE HOUSEHOLD, THE
17 HIGHEST PRIORITY FOR NATURAL GAS. THE HEAVY RESIDUAL FUEL
18 OILS THAT ARE PRODUCED ARE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ANYBODY EXCEPT
19 AN INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATION TO UTILIZE. EVEN A DISTILLATE
20 BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT FOR A HOUSEHOLDER TO USE. THAT
21 PRIORITY WILL PROBABLY GO TO INSTITUTIONS SUCH AS SCHOOLS,
22 LAUNDRIES, AND OTHER GROUPS THAT CAN HANDLE THAT KIND OF A
23 FUEL.
24 • SO, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ASSIGNING A PRIORITY TO
25 ONE OR ANOTHER USE, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE CRITERIA
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IS IN PART ECONOMIC BUT IT IS ALSO A RECOGNITION OF HOW THE
PARTICULAR FUEL CAN BE USED.
MR. CHAIRMAN, I BELIEVE THAT COVERS THE HIGHLIGHTS),
AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO RESPOND TO QUESTIONS IF YOU HAVE SOME.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. LAFFOON.
DO YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS?
MR. COVINGTON: YES.
MR. LAFFOON, I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE
SIT BETTER WHAT YOUR SERVICE AREA IS AND HOW IT RELATES TO
THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR
WITH THAT BOUNDARY. ARE THEY CO-TERMINUS? WOULD THEY
ESSENTIALLY COVER THE ENTIRE COUNTY WITH YOUR AIR REGION?
MR. LAFFOON: IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR
SERVICE TERRITORY, WHICH IS SAN DIEGO COUNTY WITH A SMALL
PORTION OF ORANGE COUNTY, ESSENTIALLY COVERS THE SAME
GEOGRAPHICAL AREA AS THE SAN DIEGO REGIONAL AIR POLLUTION
CONTROL AREA.
MR. COVINGTON: DO YOU GENERATE YOUR ENTIRE
NEEDS HERE? DO YOU GENERATE FOR EXPORT, DO YOU IMPORT?
MR. LAFFOON: WE ARE A NET IMPORTER. ALL OF OUR
FUEL IS IMPORTED. IT EITHER COMES IN THE FORM OF NATURAL
GAS, WHICH ARRIVES BY PIPELINE, OR IT COULD BE IN THE FORM
OF DISTILLATE FUEL, WHICH COULD ARRIVE EITHER BY PIPELINE
IN THE STANDARD PRODUCTS PIPELINE FROM THE LOS ANGELES AREA,
OR BY TANK SHIP TO THE OFF-LOADING TERMINAL HERE AT CARLSBAD,
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OR TO THE PORT OF SAN DIEGO. THE RESIDUAL FUEL IS ALL
IMPORTED.
WE DO RECEIVE FROM TIME TO TIME, AS NATURE
PERMITS, SOME ELECTRICAL ENERGY SUPPLY FROM THE NORTHWEST,
THE COLUMBIA RIVER GENERATION SOURCE, AND SOME FROM THE
NORTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA, THE PACIFIC GAS AND ELECTRIC
TERRITORY. WHEN THEY HAVE SURPLUSES IN WET WINTERS, AS THE
LAST TWO WINTERS HAVE BEEN, THEN BECAUSE OF OUR PARTICIPATION
IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST INTERT1E, WE HAVE AN ENTITLEMENT TO.
TRANSMISSION CAPACITY, AND WE DO IMPORT ENERGY.
THE ONLY ENERGY THAT WE GENERATE THAT IS EXPORTED
AND THIS IN NET IS AN IMPORT, BUT WE DO GENERATE OFF PEAK A
SMALL QUANTITY OF ENERGY THAT IS SUPPLIED TO THE STATE WATER
PROJECT, WHICH IS USED TO PUMP THE WATER FROM NORTHERN
CALIFORNIA TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA FOR USE IN THIS AREA AND
THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA REGION. BUT AT THE MOMENT WE RECEIVE
MORE FROM OUT OF THE AREA THAN WE SUPPLY.
MR. COVINGTON: SO, IT'S NOT PRINCIPALLY A
GENERATING BASE FOR SERVING AREAS OUTSIDE OF THE AIR QUALITY
CONTROL REGION?
MR. LAFFOON: IT is NOT.
MR. COVINGTON: CAN YOU GO BACK A MOMENT TO YOUR
COMMENTS ABOUT THE SITE. THERE WAS EARLIER THIS MORNING--AND
I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE PRESENT AT THE- T I ME--SOME CONCERNS
EXPRESSED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF SATELLITE INDUSTRIES
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1 DEVELOPING THERE AND THE POSSIBLE CUMULATIVE EFFECT THAT
2 MIGHT HAVE ON AIR POLLUTION. CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN US ANY
3 FURTHER AS TO THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT, OR ARE THERE FIRM
4 PLANS THAT THE COMPANY HAS, OR WHERE ARE YOU?
5 MR. LAFFOON: WELL, AS i INDICATED BEFORE, THE
6 PROPERTY WAS PURCHASED AS ITS PRIMARY PURPOSE SERVING THE
7 UTILITY FUEL NEED. AS WE DESIGNED THE REFINERY, IT APPEARED
8 THAT ALL THE PROPERTY WE HAD TO ACQUIRE FOR THAT WAS NOT
9 REQUIRED FOR THAT SERVICE. THE INDUSTRIAL PARK, AS PLANNED,
10 DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE HAVING ANY CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH
11 THE REFINERY. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO- USE THE OUTPUT FROM
12 THE REFINERY, IT IS NOT INTENDED TO HAVE ANY PETROCHEMICAL
13 INDUSTRIES OR ANY KIND OF INDUSTRY OF THAT SORT. IT IS
14 INTENDED, IF WE CAN CONTROL THE DESTINY, TO BE A HIGH-QUALITY
15 SCIENTIFIC-TYPE LOCATION FOR INDUSTRY THAT IS COMPATIBLE WITH
16 THE COMMUNITY AND IS DESIGNED BY THE COMMUNITY.
17 BUT TO WHAT EXTENT THE CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH
18 THE AIRPORT WILL PERMIT IT TO SUPPLEMENT THE AIRPORT AND
19 HAVE A SYNERGiSTIC EFFECT BETWEEN THE AIRPO.RT AND THE
20 INDUSTRIAL PARK, IT'S TOO EARLY TO PREDICT. BUT WE ARE NOT
21 ATTEMPTING TO SET UP A PETROCHEMICAL COMPLEX IN ANY WAY.
22 MR. COVINGTON: THAT'S THE COMPANY'S THINKING
23 AND, AS 1 UNDERSTAND IT, IN A PLANNING SENSE, AND THIS IS
I
24 STILL SUBJECT TO PENDING ANNEXATION, THE DECISION OF THE
25 CITY FATHERS HERE AS TO WHAT PRECISELY DEVELOPS; IS THAT
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2 MR. LAFFOON: YES. AND TO THE EXTENT THAT WE
3 CAN ATTEMPT TO INTERPRET WHAT THE IR ' DESI RES AND WISHES ARE.
4 MR. COVINGTON: i HAVE NO OTHER QUESTIONS.
5 MR. SWICKER: i HAVE NO QUESTIONS.
6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
7 . (APPLAUSE)
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AS FAR AS OUR PROCEDURAL PROBLEM, MR. SOMMERVILLE
YOU SPOKE THIS MORNING. YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF OUTRAGED AT
THIS TIME, BUT WE HAVE SOME 35 PEOPLE WAITING TO BE HEARD.
IF YOU WISH TO MAKE A RESPONSE, 1 WILL ALLOW YOU PRECISELY
60 SECONDS AND NOTHING MORE, IF YOU WISH TO DO SO AT THIS
TIME.. BUT I WOULD HOLD YOU TO 60 SECONDS.
MR. SOMMERVILLE: THIS MORNING, WHEN I SPOKE,
IT SEEMED THE EPA HAD RECEIVED SOME CERTAIN INFORMATION
CONCERNING FUEL AND ITS AVAILABILITY IN THE FUTURE. WE HAD
RECEIVED INFORMATION SOME MONTHS AGO AS WE WERE REVIEWING
THE ENCINA POWER PLANT. THE INFORMATION DOES NOT JIBE. I
SAID AT THAT TIME — I'M NOT SURE OF MY EXACT WORDS, BUT I'M
CERTAIN 1 INDICATED FRUSTRATION INASMUCH AS THERE WAS TWO
DIFFERENT PIECES OF INFORMATION. I HAVE FOUND IT VERY
FRUSTRATING DEALING WITH SDGSE, AND WE DID HAVE SOME
DIFFICULTY IN THE PAST. I THOUGHT WE HAD SET IT UP AND
HAD -RECEIVED AND HAD BEEN COORDINATING, AND THAT I DID HAVE
THE RIGHT INFORMATION.
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1 IT'S JUST FRUSTRATING TO GET CERTAIN KINDS OF
2 INFORMATION AND THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE
3 REGION AND MAKE CERTAIN DECISIONS ON THAT INFORMATION AND
4 THEN HAVE A KIND OF TURN-AROUND ON YOU A LITTLE LATER.
5 THEREFORE, I WASN'T REALLY MAKING AN ALLEGATION --
6 THAT'S 60 SECONDS?
7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S 60 SECONDS.
8 (APPLAUSE)
9 WE WILL NOW CALL TWO FROM THE CITIZENS GROUP.
10 JOHN A. GRAY, LOS ROBLES DRIVE, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING
11 HIMSELF.
12 MR. GRAY: MR. CHAIRMAN, THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING
13 ME TO APPEAR BEFORE YOU. THESE REMARKS WERE PREPARED
14 SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU, AND SO THE AUDIENCE IS GOING TO HAVE
15 TO BEAR WITH ME BECAUSE I'M TALKING TO YOU ALL.
16 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S WHY WE CAME.
17 MR. GRAY: MY NAME is JOHN A. GRAY, i LIVE AT
18 5^51 LOS ROBLES DRIVE, CARLSBAD, IN THE AREA CALLED
19 TERRAMAR. 1 AM A DIRECTOR OF THE TERRAMAR ASSOCIATION, BUT
20 I'M SPEAKING AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN OF THE CITY OF CARLSBAD.
21 MEMBERS OF THE TERRAMAR ASSOCI AT I ON.ARE ALSO
22 OWNERS OF RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY, TAXPAYERS, AND CLOSE
23 NEIGHBORS OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC COMPANY ENCINA
24 THERMAL POWER PLANT. DURING MY FIVE YEARS' RESIDENCE HERE,
25 I HAVE LEARNED TO BE CAUTIOUS WHEN THE GAS COMPANY OFFERS TO
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1 DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR ME, SUCH AS BUILD A REFINERY IN MY CITY
2 AND, THEREFORE, I AM APPEARING BEFORE YOU TODAY TO ASK YOU
3 TO DEFER YOUR DECISION TO PERMIT THE MACARIO INDEPENDENT
4 REFINERY TO BE BUILT IN CARLSBAD.
5 DEFER IT, GENTLEMEN, UNTIL YOU HAVE ACQUIRED A
6 MORE RELIABLE DATA BASE FOR THIS VITAL DECISION. YOUR
7 DECISION TO APPROVE THE DAILY ADDITION OF Ik TONS OF
g POLLUTANTS TO OUR AIR MAY NOT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE TRUE FACTS.
9 THERE IS SOME DOUBT THAT THE FACTS WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN
10 ARE THE TRUE ONES.
11 FOR INSTANCE, ONE OF THE EXCUSES FOR BUILDING
12 THIS REFINERY IS THE PROJECTED SHORTAGE OF NATURAL GAS.
13 THE U. S. BUREAU OF COMPETITION HAS ACCUSED THE NATION'S
14 ELEVEN LARGEST NATURAL GAS PRODUCERS OF UNDERESTIMATING THE
15 NATURAL GAS RESERVES OF OUR COUNTRY. GENTLEMEN, ARE YOU SURE
16 THERE WILL BE A NATURAL GAS SHORTAGE TO JUSTIFY THIS REFINERY
17 ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR BUILDING THE REFINERY IN
lg CARLSBAD IS A PROJECTED POPULATION GROWTH OF 50 PERCENT BY
19 1935. THIS SPECTACULAR GROWTH WAS FORECAST BY AN INTERESTED
20 PARTY, THE SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY. BUT WILLARD
21 JOHNSON, DIRECTOR OF THE POPULATION STUDY CENTER IN SAN DIEGO
22 SAID SUCH FORECASTS ARE WRONG AND MISLEADING. LAST YEAR,
23 HE SAID, THE COUNTY GREW ONLY 2.2 PERCENT, AND HE FORECASTS
24 AN INCREASE -OF ONLY 12 PERCENT BY 1985. "A 50 PERCENT GROWTH
25 RATE IS ABSURD," SAID WILLARD JOHNSON.
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1 GENTLEMEN, DID YOU USE THE WRONG AND MISLEADING
2 GROWTH FIGURE TO ARRIVE AT YOUR CONCLUSIONS THAT CARLSBAD
3 SHOULD BE INUNDATED WITH 14 TONS OF POLLUTANTS A DAY?
4 WAS YOUR DECISION INFLUENCED BY THE SAN DIEGO
5 GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY'S FORECAST OF INCREASED ENERGY USE?
6 THEY PROJECTED A 7 PERCENT ANNUAL INCREASE IN ENERGY USE.
7 BUT, SAYS DOUG LANDON OF THE SAN DIEGO ENERGY COALITION, THE
8 COUNTY GREW ONLY 2.2 PERCENT, NOT 7 PERCENT. BESIDES THAT,
9 THE CONSUMPTION OF OUR GAS COMPANY'S ELECTRICITY ACTUALLY
10 FELL OFF BY 12,000,000 KILOWATT HOURS LAST YEAR. NOW, IF
11 SUCH BE THE CASE, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE OUTPUT OF THIS
12 REFINERY WILL BE NEEDED TO SUPPORT THE GAS COMPANY IN 1985?
13 BUT IT'S NOT ONLY US PRIVATE CITIZENS WHO DOUBT
14 THESE PROJECTIONS ON WHICH YOUR DECISION APPEARS TO BE BASED.
15 OUR STATE ENERGY COMMISSION STAFF QUESTIONS THE TECHNIQUES
16 USED BY THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION TO FORECAS
17 FUTURE NEEDS FOR ELECTRICITY. MOREOVER, THE ENERGY COMMISSIO
18 FORECAST A DEMAND FOR 9 PERCENT LESS ELECTRICITY IN 1984 THAN
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WAS FORECAST BY THREE OF OUR PUBLIC UTILITIES. ONE OF THOSE
THREE PUBLIC UTILITIES WAS OUR OWN SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC
COMPANY. SO, GENTLEMEN, IF YOU WERE USING EITHER PUC OR
GAS COMPANY PROJECTIONS TO DECIDE CARLSBAD NEEDED A REFINERY,
THE STAFF OF THE CALIFORNIA ENERGY COMMISSION DISAGREES WITH
YOU.-
NOW, BESIDES QUESTIONING THE PREMISES UPON WHICH
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YOU BASED YOUR DECISION, GENTLEMEN, I ALSO INVITE YOU TO
CONSIDER SOME SMOG PROBLEMS WHICH THIS PROPOSED REFINERY
WILL CREATE. CONSIDER THE FUMES VENTED FROM THE HOLDS OF
THE BARGES WHICH COME TO THE ENCINA MARINE TERMINAL TO
BACKLOAD OIL FROM THE STORAGE TANKS AND CARRY IT TO SAN DIEGO
WHEN THAT OIL GOES INTO THOSE TANKS, THE FUMES COME OUT, AND
THE POLLUTED SEA BREEZE BLOWS RIGHT ACROSS OUR SEASIDE
COMMUNITY OF TERRAMAR.
CONSIDER THE FUMES EMITTED BY THE SATELLITE
PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES WHICH WILL SPRING UP AROUND THAT
REFINERY. YOU MAY SAY, "WHAT HAVE WE TO DO WITH THOSE?
NOBODY HAS ASKED OUR PERMISSION FOR PETROCHEMICAL POLLUTION."
AND 1 WILL ANSWER THAT QUESTION, GENTLEMEN. IF ONE HEAVY
INDUSTRY, SUCH AS THIS REFINERY, IS ALLOWED TO POLLUTE OUR
AIR, THEN HOW CAN YOU DENY OTHERS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO
DO SO?
LASTLY, GENTLEMEN, CONSIDER WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF
THIS REFINERY GOES INTO OPERATION AND FAILS TO COMPLY WITH
YOUR REQUIREMENTS. UP IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, THE BEN1C1A.
REFINERY HAS BEEN CITED REPEATEDLY FOR POLLUTION VIOLATIONS.
NOW, I AM TOLD THAT OUR STATE LAW HAS A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF
$500 PER DAY FOR POLLUTION. NOW, THAT'S PEANUTS TO A MULTI-
MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION. THEY CAN GO RIGHT AHEAD
VIOLATING YOUR LAW, SHELLING OUT $500 A DAY, STILL MAKE A
PROFIT, AND YOU CAN'T STOP THEM UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOU DENY
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1 THEM THIS PERMIT TO BEGIN WITH.
2 NOW, GENTLEMEN, I ASK THAT YOU CONSIDER CAREFULLY
3 WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO. ONCE THE DAMAGE IS DONE, IT CAN'T
4 BE REPAIRED. ITS LONG-RANGE IMPLICATIONS ARE HORRENDOUS.
5 PLEASE CHECK YOUR BASIC PREMISES. GET MORE RELIABLE, GET
6 LESS BIASED INFORMATION OF YOUR OWN BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO
7 FOIST THIS REFINERY UPON OUR BEAUTIFUL LITTLE SEASIDE TOWN.
8 THANK YOU.
9 (APPLAUSE)
10 CHAIRMAN WALKER: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR
1] STATEMENT?
12 MR. GRAY: YES, SIR.
,3 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WOULD YOU LIKE TO LEAVE IT FOR
14 US SO WE CAN INCORPORATE IT IN THE RECORD? THANK YOU VERY
15 MUCH.
lg • MR. GRAY'S STATEMENT WILL BE MARKED FOR THE
17 PURPOSE OF THIS RECORD EXHIBIT NO. 20.
18 I NEXT HAVE MR. WILLIAM KAPLAN, JEWELL STREET,
19 SAN DIEGO, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.
20 MR. KAPLAN: MY NAME IS WILLIAM KAPLAN, AND I
21 LIVE AT 3932 JEWELL STREET IN SAN DIEGO 92109. 1 AM A
22 CHEMICAL ENGINEER BOTH BY EDUCAT1 ON -AND BY EXPER1ENCE, HAVING
23 HAD SOME 40-ODD YEARS IN THE PETROLEUM INDUSTRY WORKING FOR
24 TWO DIFFERENT COMPANIES.
25 THE WORK I DID RELATED TO ALL FACETS OF REFINERY
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OPERATIONS, FROM PILOT PLANT RESEARCH, REFINERY OPERATIONS,
ENGINEERING DESIGN, PROCESS DESIGN, TECHNICAL SERVICE IN THE
REFINERY, AUTOMOTIVE.RESEARCH, AND TECHNICAL ADVICE IN THE
MARKETING DEPARTMENT.
ABOUT SIX MONTHS AGO A CENTURY 3-C REPRESENTATIVE
ASKED ME TO ATTEND A MEETING AT BALBOA PARK TO ANSWER SOME
QUESTIONS THAT WERE OF SOME CONCERN TO SOME CARLSBAD CITIZENS
THESE QUESTIONS RELATED TO THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY. 1
TOLD THEM IN EFFECT THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE.TO HAVE A CLEAN
REFINERY BUT THAT NO JUDGMENT WAS POSSIBLE WITH REGARD TO
MACARIO WITHOUT DETAILED KNOWLEDGE OF THE PROCESSING SCHEME,
WHICH PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE AVAILABLE UNTIL THE ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT REPORT WAS PREPARED. WHEN SUCH A REPORT WAS AVAILABLE
I OFFERED TO HELP AND REVIEW IT, AND THAT I WOULD BE IN A
BETTER POSITION TO GIVE AN OPINION ON THE ADEQUACY OF THE
PROPOSAL FROM AN AIR POLLUTION STANDPOINT.
SIX WEEKS AGO I RECEIVED NOTICE OF A MEETING OF
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S ORANGE-SAN DIEGO COUNTIES' ENVIRONMENT
TASK FORCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, IRVINE CAMPUS.
ONE OF THE ITEMS ON THE AGENDA WAS EPA'S APPROVAL OF THE
PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY FROM AN AIR QUALITY STANDPOINT.
IN OTHER WORDS, TO BECOME PREPARED FOR THIS MEETING.
MR. BRUCE BEAN, THE PROJECT MANAGER, WAS CONTACTED
AND HE SENT ME PRELIMINARY INFORMATION ABOUT THE PROCESSING
SCHEME WHICH WAS USED AS A BASIS FOR REMARKS I MADE AT THE
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ATTORNEY GENERAL'S TASK FORCE MEETING ON JULY 24TH. AT THAT
MEETING IT WAS FINALLY VOTED THAT APPROVAL BE GRANTED IF
THE BEST AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY IS USED.
THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO ME HAS BEEN STUDIED,
AND IT IS MY BELIEF THAT THE BASIC PROCESSING SCHEME
INCORPORATES THE BEST AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY TODAY. I ALSO
BELIEVE THAT EPA'S CONDITIONAL IMPACT APP'RAISAL IS SOUND,
BUT THERE WILL BE AN OVERALL DECREASE OF POLLUTANTS WITHIN
THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION OVER WHAT WOULD BE
EXPECTED IF OTHER ALTERNATE AVAILABLE FUELS ARE USED.
NOW, THE POLLUTANT THAT'S PROBABLY MOST
CONTROLLABLE IS SULPHUR OXIDES, AND THE TWO MOST POPULAR
WAYS TO ATTACK THIS PROBLEM ARE, FIRST, BY INSTALLING
SCRUBBERS IN STACKS OR, TWO, BY REMOVING THE SULPHUR FROM
THE PRODUCTS BEFORE THEY'RE BURNED. NOW, SCRUBBING
TECHNOLOGY IS CURRENTLY UNDER INTENSIVE STUDY, AND -THERE IS
SOME INDICATION THAT IT CAN BE IN USE IN A LOT OF PLACES,
BUT THERE ARE PROBLEMS TO BE SOLVED IN THE DISPOSAL OF THE
CALCIUM SULPHATE SLUDGES. IN SUCH A REFINERY, ANY RESIDUAL
FUEL SOLD TO OTHERS WOULD HAVE TO BE SCRUBBED IN THE VARIOUS
STACKS IN WHICH THE HIGH-SULPHUR FUEL IS BURNED.
ON THE OTHER HAND, THE REMOVAL OF SULPHUR DURING
PROCESSING OF THE CRUDE PRODUCES LOW-SULPHUR PRODUCTS THAT
CAN BE USED ANYWHERE. NOW, THESE HYDROGENATI ON PROCESSES
FOR REMOVING SULPHUR ARE FLEXIBLE AND THEY ARE SUBJECT TO
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IMPROVEMENT IN TIME IN THE CATALYST TECHNOLOGY AND FOR
EFFECTIVE SULPHUR REMOVAL IN THE FUTURE. MUCH AS GASOLINE
OCTANE WILL IMPROVE THROUGH THE DEVELOPMENT OF NEWER
CATALYSTS.
THERE IS ALSO THE FLEXIBILITY IN THE USE OF
LONGER RESIDENCE TIME BY ADDING REACTORS TO THIS EQUIPMENT
OR BY INCREASING TEMPERATURES IF IN THE FUTURE LOWER-SULPHUR
CONTENTS ARE DICTATED. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU GOT A FLEXIBILITY
HERE WITH RESPECT TO SULPHUR CONTENT THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE
IN A LOT OF OTHER SCHEMES. AND THE EXTRACTION SYSTEM FOR
EXTRACTING THE HYDROGEN SULPHIDE FROM ALL THE HYDROGENATI ON
UNITS IS A KNOWN TECHNOLOGY. MANY SUCH HYDROGEN SULPHIDE
REMOVAL SYSTEMS USING THE DIETHYLNOL MEANS HAVE BEEN IN
OPERATION FOR 40 YEARS.
NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE PURPOSE OF THIS
MEETING RELATES TO AIR QUALITY, SO I CANNOT OFFER ANY
COMMENTS ON THE BASIS OF WATER QUALITY, WASTE, CHEMICAL
DISPOSAL, AND THESE SORT OF THINGS WHICH ARE VERY COMMON IN
AN OIL REFINERY. BUT THERE IS ONE FURTHER COMMENT I WOULD
LIKE TO MAKE THAT CONCERNS THINGS THAT ARE NOT PRESENT IN
THIS REFINERY. REFINERIES HAVE BEEN MADE.-- REFERENCES
HAVE BEEN MADE TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN.OTHER REFINERIES.
IN A TYPICAL GASOLINE REFINERY, CATALYTIC CRACKING UNITS ARE
USED, AND THEY PRESENTED MANY PROBLEMS FROM A NOISE POLLUTION
STANDPOINT OR PARTICULATE MATTER, ALTHOUGH MOST OF THESE
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ARE SOLVED AT THE PRESENT TIME.
THEY ALSO HAVE A HIGH CARBON MONOXIDE PROBLEM.
NO SUCH UNIT IS PRESENT IN THIS REFINERY. A NUMBER OF
TREATING SYSTEMS ARE USED IN -- FOR REMOVAL OF THE SULPHUR
COMPOUNDS, WHICH ARE VERY ODOROUS IN AN ORDINARY GASOLINE
REFINERY. AS FAR AS 1 CAN TELL, THERE IS NO SUCH SYSTEM
REQUIRED HERE. NO COKING UNIT, WHICH IS RATHER COMMON IN A
LOT OF REFINERIES. YOU HAVE NO COKING UNIT HERE.
MANY OTHER PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO
WITH RESPECT TO ORDINARY REFINERIES JUST WON'T APPLY TO THIS
MACARIO REFINERY.
I REPEAT THAT I THINK THE BASIC TECHNOLOGY IS
THERE, IT'S THE BEST THAT COULD BE USED, BUT DETAILED
STUDIES HAVE TO BE MADE OF ALL THE NUTS AND BOLTS AND THE
SMALL LITTLE THINGS THAT GO TO MAKE UP A COMPLETE SYSTEM,
AND THESE ARE THE THINGS YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WATCH FOR
VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE A FINAL APPRAISAL CAN BE MADE. I THINK
THIS HEARING IS JUST A BEGINNING IN REACHING THAT DECISION.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. KAPLAN. DO
YOU HAVE YOUR WRITTEN STATEMENT, MR. KAPLAN, THAT YOU WISH
TO SUBMIT FOR THE RECORD?
MR. KAPLAN: i HAVE MAINLY NOTES, BUT i COULD
CONVERT THEM INTO A STATEMENT IF YOU'RE NOT RUSHED FOR TIME.
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1 . CHAIRMAN WALKER: IT'S YOUR CHOICE. WE ARE GOING
2 TO KEEP THE RECORD OPEN FOR 30 DAYS, IF YOU WANT TO CLEAN
3 THEM UP.
4 MR. KAPLAN: i WILL SEE THAT YOU GET IT.
5 CHAIRMAN WALKER: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
6 I WILL NEXT CALL ON JOAN JACKSON OF CHINQUAPIN
1 IN CARLSBAD REPRESENTING CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE.
8 MS. JACKSON: MY NAME is JOAN JACKSON, i LIVE
9 AT 1120 CHINQUAPIN. THAT'S C-H-I-N-Q-U-A-P-I-N, CARLSBAD.
10 CARLSBAD IS IN A CRITICAL AIR BASIN WHERE
11 UNSATISFACTORY LEVELS OF AIR POLLUTANTS PRESENTLY EXIST.
12 THERE ARE ADDITIONAL MAJOR POLLUTING FACILITIES IN VARIOUS
13 STAGES OF APPROVAL OR DEVELOPMENT IN THE AREA, SPECIFICALLY
14 ENCINA UNIT 5, THE EXPANSION OF THE ENCINA TANK FARM AND
15 THE INDUSTRIAL PARK PROPOSED FOR THE 580 ACRES ADJACENT TO
16 THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY SITE.
17 THE ARGUMENT THAT THE REFINERY WILL EASE RATHER
18 THAN INTENSIFY THE SITUATION IS BASICALLY THAT THE POLLUTANTS
19 GENERATED BY THE REFINERY, 14 TONS PER DAY, WILL BE MORE THAN
20 OFFSET BY THE RESULTANT REDUCTION IN POLLUTION CAUSED BY
21 BURNING THE REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL. THIS ARGUMENT DEPENDS ON
22 SEVERAL ASSUMPTIONS OF VARYING DEGREES OF PROBABILITY.
23 A PERMIT GRANTED TO BUILD THE MACARIO REFINERY
24 RESTS ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL WOULD NOT
25 OTHERWISE BE AVAILABLE TO SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY.
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SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC HAS TESTIFIED REPEATEDLY BOTH BEFORE
THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT AND THE SAN D1EGC
REGIONAL COAST COMMISSION THAT SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC HAS
FIRM CONTRACTS THROUGH 1984 TO SUPPLY THE ENC1NA GENERATING
PLANT WITH AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL. THIS
INFORMATION WAS SUPPLIED TO THESE AGENCIES AS SUPPORT FOR
THEIR APPLICATION TO CONSTRUCT ENCINA 5.
THAT CONSTRUCTION OF THE MACARI 0 REFINERY WILL
PRODUCE A NET REDUCTION IN AIR POLLUTION MUST ALSO REST ON
THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL REFINED IN
CARLSBAD WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR USE IN THAT SERVICE AREA.
THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION WHICH FEDERAL ALLOCATION POLICIES
PRECLUDE. SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY TESTIFIED, WHEN
REQUESTING ONE MAJOR AIR-POLLUTING FACILITY, THE ADDITIONAL
GENERATING UNIT AT THE ENCINA PLANT, THAT AMPLE LOW-SULPHUR
FUEL WAS ALREADY ASSURED FROM SOURCES OTHER THAN THE PROPOSED
REFINERY.
THEY NOW TESTIFY THAT THE REFINERY IS NECESSARY
TO PREVENT INCREASED POLLUTION FROM SUCH FACILITIES AS THEIR
GENERATING PLANT IN ENCINA AND ELSEWHERE IN THE SAME CRITICAL
AIR BASIN BECAUSE OTHERWISE REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL WILL BE
UNAVAILABLE IN SUFFICIENT QUANTITY. THE TESTIMONY IN THE
TWO CASES IS DIRECTLY CONTRADICTORY. THEREFORE, CERTAINLY
INCORRECT IN AT LEAST ONE CASE.
SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC WAS ORDERED TO SELL
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THEIR SURPLUS OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL TO A COMPANY OUTSIDE THEIR
SERVICE AREA EARLIER THIS YEAR. THE REDUCED SULPHUR FUEL
REFINED IN CARLSBAD WILL LIKEWISE BE ALLOCATED AS SEEN FIT
BY STATE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES.
THERE ARE OTHER QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN UNANSWERED.
AT THE ANNUAL MEETING OF GULF OIL, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE *BOARD,
MR. B. R. DORSEY, REPLIED TO A STOCKHOLDER'S QUESTION,
"DO WE HAVE ANY REFINERIES THAT WE PLAN ON BUILDING IN THE
NEXT FIVE YEARS?" "NO. THERE'S ABOUT A 40 PERCENT REFINERY
SURPLUS IN THE WORLD TODAY, SO YOU WOULD KIND OF HAVE TO BE
OUT OF YOUR MIND, WHICH WE ARE NOT, TO BUILD A REFINERY."
CARLSBAD IS NOT AN ISOLATED FARMING AREA IN THE
STATE OF WASHINGTON NOR ON AN ISLAND WITH CONSISTENT STRONG
WIND CURRENTS. WE ARE A TOWN BALANCED ON THE VERGE OF
SUCCUMBING TO THE BLIGHT THAT HAS AFFECTED LOS ANGELES, A
BLIGHT THAT IS PREDICTED TO WORSEN RATHER THAN IMPROVE
BECAUSE OF THE REDUCTION IN POLLUTION CONTROL RESULTING FROM
OUR FORECAST ENERGY SHORTAGE. TO GRANT A PERMIT BASED ON
THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE FUEL WOULD NOT OTHERWISE BE AVAILABLE
WHEN SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC HAS PROVED TO OTHER AGENCIES
THAT THEY HAVE AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY TO AT LEAST 1984, AND ON
THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE FUEL WILL BE USED IN THEIR SERVICE
AREA WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS ULTIMATE ALLOCATION
AUTHORITY IS TO ASK CARLSBAD TO ACCEPT BLINDLY WHATEVER
SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC PROPOSES REGARDLESS OF HOW
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SELF-CONTRADICTORY AND CONTRARY TO LOGIC AND GOOD SENSE THE
2 PROPOSALS MAY BE.
3 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE URGES THE UNITED STATES
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY TO DENY THE AUTHORITY TO
5 CONSTRUCT PERMIT.
6 1 HAVE TWO ITEMS I WOULD LIKE TO ENTER INTO THE
7 RECORD. ONE IS A LETTER TO MR. R. G.. LACY, MANAGER,
8 MECHANICAL ENGINEERING, SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRI C,. FROM
9 RICHARD J. SOMMERVILLE, ACTING AIR POLLUTION CONTROL OFFICER
10 FOR SAN DIEGO COUNTY. AND THE OTHER IS MY STATEMENT.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 A COPY OF THE LETTER TO MR. R. G. LACY FROM
14 RICHARD J. SOMMERV1LLE WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 21 FOR PURPOSES
15 OF THIS HEARING, AND A COPY OF THE LADY'S STATEMENT WILL BE
16 MARKED EXHIBIT 22.
17 I NEXT CALL. ON MR. ARTHUR J. MEIER OF CHEVY CHASE,
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LA MESA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING LOCAL 230.
ARTHUR J. MEIER? IT DOESN'T SAY LOCAL OF WHAT.
I OBSERVE NO RESPONSE. WE WILL CALL THESE LATER.
MR. MONTY NESBIT OF SAN PABLO DRIVE, LAKE SAN
MARCOS, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.
MR. J. A. REHBERG FROM HONOLULU, REPRESENTING
PACIFIC RESOURCES, INCORPORATED.
MR. REHBERG: MY NAME is JEROME REHBERG. I'M
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1 SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT OF PACIFIC RESOURCES, INCORPORATED,
2 WHOSE OFFICES ARE AT 1060 BISHOP STREET, HONOLULU, HAWAII.
3 PACIFIC RESOURCES IS A JOINT PARTNER IN THE
4 MACARIO REFINERY PROJECT, AND CURRENTLY OPERATES ONE OF THE
5 FEW CLEAN-AIR REFINERIES IN THE UNITED STATES. THE PACIFIC
6 RESOURCES REFINERY IS HAWAIIAN INDEPENDENT REFINERY,
7 INCORPORATED, IN HONOLULU.
8 NOW, THE REASON FOR THE MACARIO REFINERY IS
9 ONE OF NEED, THE NEED FOR ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE CLEAN
10 FUELS AND THE NEED FOR A SECURE SOURCE OF SUPPLY.
11 IN OUR METHOD OF DETERMINING IF THERE WAS SUCH
12 A NEED, WE CALLED IN OUTSIDE AGENCIES, THE MC KINSEY COMPANY,
13 TO MAKE AN EVALUATION OF THE SUPPLY OF THESE FUELS.
14 AND IF YOU WOULD SHOW THE FIRST SLIDE, PLEASE.
15 I'M SORRY THAT THESE ARE A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO SEE HERE, BUT
16 WHAT I'M TRYING TO SHOW IS IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE THERE WILL
17 BE A SURPLUS OF SECURE U. S. CRUDE OIL ON THE WEST COAST.
18 HOWEVER, THE SULPHUR CONTENT WILL BE ABOVE ACCEPTABLE LIMITS.
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CHAIRMAN WALKER: EXCUSE ME, MR. REHBERG. FOR
THE RECORD, ARE YOU GOING TO PRESENT COPIES OF THESE SO WE
CAN INCLUDE THEM IN THE RECORD?
MR. REHBERG: YES, SIR, 1 WILL.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
MR. REHBERG: BUT BECAUSE OF THE NEED OF
ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE FUELS, YOU WILL SEE ON THE CHART--
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--OR PERHAPS YOU CAN'T SEE ON THE CHART--WE HAVE ASSUMED THAT
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL ALLOW THE IMPORT OF THE LOW-
SULPHUR, OR THE SWEET, CRUDES TO CONTINUE. AND THAT AS MUCH
OF THE ALASKAN CRUDE AS IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE WILL BE
TRANS-SHIPPED ACROSS CALIFORNIA TO THE MIDWEST AND EAST COAST.
AND IF YOU HAVE. BEEN READING THE VARIOUS TRADE JOURNALS, YOU
WILL FIND THESE PLANS LISTED THEREIN. AND WE HAVE SOME AT
THE BOTTOM OF THIS CHART, WHICH SHOWS THE REVERSAL OF THE
FOUR CORNERS PIPELINE AND THE REVERSAL OF THE TRANSMOUNTAIN
PIPELINE, TO GIVE YOU THE BASIS FOR THE ASSUMPTION OF HOW
THE CRUDE SURPLUS WOULD ARRIVE.
NOW, NO. 2 SLIDE, PLEASE. I BELIEVE IT WAS
MENTIONED WE WOULD HAVE TO BE RATHER, I BELIEVE -- I FORGET
WHAT MR. DORSEY, THE PRESIDENT OF GULF OIL SAID. STUPID
MIGHT BE AN ADEQUATE EXPLANATION, TO BUILD A REFINERY
CAPABILITY. AGAIN, WE'RE NOT BUILDING WHAT'S CONSIDERED A
TYPICAL REFINERY WHEN THERE IS SURPLUS REFINERY CAPACITY.
AND THESE CHARTS AND THE STUDY WE HAD DONE INDICATES THAT
HERE ON THE WEST COAST THERE IS AN EXCESS OF REFINERY
CAPACITY, BUT THESE REFINERIES ARE GASOLINE-ORIENTED.
APPROXIMATELY 50 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL OUTPUT OF THESE
REFINERIES ARE FOR GASOLINE. THE TYPICAL COST NEEDED TO
DESULPHURIZE RESIDUAL FUELS IS AS EXPENSIVE AS A NEW REFINERY
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO INCENTIVE OR NO REASON FOR THESE
CURRENT REFINERIES TO ENTER THE LOW-SULPHUR MARKET FOR TWO
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REASONS: MORE LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTION AS SUCH WOULD
PRODUCE MORE PRODUCTS ALREADY IN EXCESS FOR THEIR NEEDS IN
THEIR REFINERY, AS THE SLIDE SHOWS. AMD, TWO, IF THEY
CHANGED OVER TO THE LOW-SULPHUR TO MAKE LOW-SULPHUR WITHOUT
INCREASING THEIR CAPACITY, THEY WOULD REDUCE OR ELIMINATE
THE USE OF THE HIGH CAPITAL, VERY HIGH CAPITAL COST, OF
UNITS THAT ARE ALREADY INSTALLED AND USED TO PRODUCE
GASOLINE AND COKE.
WELL, WHAT IS THE REASON WE SEE FOR THE NEED OF
THE MACARiO REFINERY? PUT ON SLIDE 3. THIS, AGAIN, IS ONE
DONE BY THE MC KINSEY COMPANY FOR US TO MAKE AN ANALYSIS.
AND YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE GROWTH LINE WE HAVE REDUCED
CONSIDERABLY BY WHAT HAS BEEN BANDIED AROUND HERE. WE HAVE
TAKEN THE BEST AND MOST CONSERVATIVE GROWTH LINE THAT WE
COULD COME UP WITH, THAT SEEMED -- THAT WE DIDN'T COME UP
WITH; THAT THE COMPANY CAME UP WITH, MC KINSEY COMPANY, IN
THEIR ANALYSIS. AND THIS SLIDE SHOWS WHY THE NEED FOR
MACARIO REFINERY. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PROJECTS.
THF BOTTOM LINE, THE ONES ON THE BOTTOM THERE,
IF YOU CAN SEE THE LOWEST LINE, THAT IS NOW IMPORTS, FOREIGN
IMPORTS, OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, INCLUDING THAT WHICH YOU
NOW USE COMING IN FROM HAWAII. THE DOTTED LINES ABOVE THAT
LOW LINE ARE THE PROJECTS IN PROCESS, PRIMARILY THOSE OF
STANDARD OIL OF CALIFORNIA, WHICH IS ADDING DESULPHURIZAT1 ON
AND NEW DISTILLATION. THEY'RE ADDING NEW REFINERIES AT AN
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1 OLD REFINERY SITE. THOSE INCLUDE ALL OF THOSE. AND YOU WILL
2 SEE THAT THERE IS A CONSIDERABLE GAP IN THE MOST CONSERVATIVE
3 GROWTH LINE, THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH, CONSIDERING IMPORTS
4 AND ALL THE PROJECTS NOW IN BEING, TO FULFILL THE REQUIRE-
5 MENTS FOR THESE ENVIRONMENTAL-TYPE FUELS.
6 AS MR. BEAN AND OTHERS POINTED OUT, THE MACAR10
7 REFINERY'S PROPOSED PROCESSING UNITS ARE NOT THOSE OF THE
8 USUAL REFINERY. OUR PROCESSING EQUIPMENT IS DEDICATED TO
9 PRODUCING ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE FUELS.
10 PACIFIC RESOURCES IS OPERATING A CLEAN-AIR
11 REFINERY IN HAWAII, A REFINERY THAT HAS WON THE AMERICAN
12 LUNG ASSOCIATION'S BLUE SKY AWARD, AND THE GOVERNOR OF
13 HAWAII'S COMMENDATION FOR THE CORPORATION HAVING DONE THE
14 MOST TO IMPROVE THE ENVIRONMENT.
15 PACIFIC RESOURCES HAS BEEN, IS, AND WILL CONTINUE
16 TO BE INTERESTED IN OUR ENVIRONMENT.
17 THANK YOU.
18 (APPLAUSE)
19 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. REHBERG. DO
20 YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR REMARKS WHICH YOU WISH TO LEAVE
21 WITH US? SUIT YOURSELF.
22 1 WILL NEXT CALL MR. ANTHONY BELLIN OF CAMINITO
23 ESTRADA, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.
24 - MR. BELLIN?
25 MR. JOHN .M. STUPPY OF JAMES DRIVE. IT DOESN'T
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1 SAY WHAT CITY.
2 (CRIES OF "CARLSBAD")
3 MR. STUPPY?
4 CECIL J. YOUNGSTROM OF DON ALBERTO DRIVE,
5 CARLSBAD.
6 MR. EDWARD KIMURA.
7 I READ YOUR ADDRESS AS TEMECULA. YOU'RE
8 REPRESENTING THE SIERRA CLUB, SAN DIEGO CHAPTER.
9 MR. KIMURA: MR. CHAIRMAN, MY NAME IS EDWARD
10 KIMURA. I AM SPEAKING IN BEHALF OF THE SAN DIEGO CHAPTER
11 OF THE SIERRA CLUB.
12 THE CHAPTER IS VERY CONCERNED OVER THE MANY
13 ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE CONSIDERATION OF THE PROPOSED MACAR10
14 REFINERY. THE QUESTION AT THIS HEARING IS WHETHER THE
15 PROPOSED REFINERY WILL OR WILL NOT SIGNIFICANTLY DETERIORATE
16 THE AIR QUALITY OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN, OR WHETHER THE
17 REFINERY WILL INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT AND MAINTENANCE
18 OF THE NATIONAL AIR QUALITY STANDARDS.
19 THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS AND VITAL QUESTION
20 BECAUSE IT CONCERNS THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF NOT ONLY HUMAN
2l" LIFE, BUT ALSO ANIMAL AND PLANT LIFE IN THE SAN DIEGO AREA.
22 TO THIS END, ONE MUST GO BEYOND THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE
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EMISSION LEVELS CREATED BY THE REFINERY WILL MEET ANY OF THE
STATE OR FEDERAL STANDARDS. IT IS THE E;NV I RONMENTAL PROTEC-
TION AGENCY'S OBLIGATION, AS OUR PUBLIC SERVANTS, TO
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CRITICALLY EXAMINE IF ANY POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION HAZARDS
WILL BE CREATED BY THE REFINERY.
THE PUBLIC MUST BE MADE FULLY AWARE OF THE
TRADE-OFFS TO BE MADE FOR THE BENEFITS OF THE LOW-SULPHUR
FUEL PRODUCTS VERSUS THE POSSIBLE AIR POLLUTION HAZARDS
CREATED BY THE REFINERY ITSELF. IN VIEW OF THE INFORMATION
PROVIDED TO US BY BOTH EPA AND THE APPLICANT, THE SAN DIEGO
CHAPTER OF THE SIERRA CLUB CONCLUDES THAT THE DATA AND
ANALYSES ARE INSUFFICIENT TO SHOW BEYOND ANY REASONABLE
DOUBT THAT THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY WILL NOT SIGNIFI-
CANTLY DETERIORATE THE AIR QUALITY. WE MUST ALSO CONCLUDE
THAT THE NEED FOR THE REFINERY PRODUCTS HAS NOT BEEN CLEARLY
ESTABLISHED.
THESE CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING
POINTS:
1. THE VALIDITY OF THE FORECAST METHODOLOGY USED
IN THE SDGSE AND PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION IN THEIR
TEN-YEAR FUEL DEMAND FORECASTS HAS BEEN RECENTLY QUESTIONED
BY THE STATE ENERGY RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND DEVELOPMENT
COMMISSION. ACCURATE FORECASTS ARE VITAL, AS ONE CAN SEE
THE DIRECT INFLUENCE OF INCREASED ENERGY DEMANDS ON THE AIR
QUALITY OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN.
2. IN THE EPA REPORT ENTITLED "MACARIO --
ANALYSIS OF THE S02 IMPACT ON LOCALIZED AIR QUALITY,"
WHICH WE RECEIVED JUST THIS PAST MONDAY, DOES NOT IN OUR
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1 OPINION JUSTIFY ITS CONCLUSION THAT THE PROJECT WILL NOT
2 ADVERSELY AFFECT THE MAINTENANCE OF THE CALIFORNIA STATE OR
3 NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS FOR SO? IN THE SAN
4 DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION.
5 ADDITIONALLY, THIS REPORT DOES NOT, IN OUR VIEW,
6 SUPPORT ITS CLAIM THAT THE AIR QUALITY WILL NOT SIGNIFI-
7 CANTLY BE DETERIORATED BY THE REFINERY. WE BELIEVE THAT
8 THE EPA SIMULATION MODEL USED TO ANALYZE THE COMBINED
9 EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY AND THE ENCINA POWER PLANT IS
10 NOT SUFFICIENTLY ACCURATE TO SUPPORT THEIR CONCLUSIONS.
11 EPA ITSELF IN APPENDIX A OF THIS REPORT STATES,
12 "BECAUSE OF SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL LIMITATIONS, THE
13 DIFFUSION COMPUTATION METHOD USED IN THIS MODEL MAY PROVIDE
14 'BEST ESTIMATES BUT NOT INFALLIBLE PREDICTIONS."
15 YET, IN THE MAIN BODY OF THEIR REPORT, EPA
16 PRESENTS GROUND LEVEL CONCENTRATION NUMBERS TO FOUR SIGNI-
17 FICANT FIGURES, A VERY GROSSLY MISLEADING PRACTICE.
18 WE REFER YOU TO CHAPTER 7 OF THE TEXT "FUNDA-
19 MENTALS OF AIR POLLUTION" BY SAMUEL J. WILLIAMSON. IN THIS
20 CHAPTER WILLIAMSON DISCUSSES THE LIMITATIONS OF THE MODELING
21 TECHNIQUES CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. PREDICTIONS COULD BE OF
22 SEVERAL FOLD. WE NOTED THAT THE EPA MODEL DID NOT INCLUDE
23 THE OCEAN, BUT REPLACED IT WITH A CONTINUUM OF A SIMPLISTIC
24 TOPOGRAPHY OF THE LAND AREA. IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE THERMO-
25 DYNAMICS AND OTHER FACTORS OF THE OCE'AN WOULD MODIFY THE
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1 ATMOSPHERIC MIXING OF THE EFFLUENTS.
2 THIS AND OTHER OMISSIONS AND SIMPLIFICATIONS IN
3 THE MODEL USED TO ACCURATELY SIMULATE THE EFFLUENT DISPERSAL
4 FOR THE PURPOSES OF PREDICTING GROUND-LEVEL CONCENTRATION
5 OF c>02 MAKES US BELIEVE THAT MODELING STUDIES ALONE CANNOT
6 BE USED TO DETERMINE THE IMPACT OF THE REFINERY ON THE AIR
7 QUAL.ITY. WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT THE EPA USE MORE
8 ACCURATE METHODS TO ASSESS THE EMISSIONS IMPACT.
9 3. THE ANALYSIS OF THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE IMPACT
10 PRESENTED THUS FAR BY THE EPA IGNORES THE FACT THAT THIS
11 POLLUTANT WILL FURTHER OXIDIZE IN THE ATMOSPHERE AND COMBINE
12 WITH THE MOISTURE IN THE AIR TO FORM A SULPHURIC ACID RAIN
13 FALLOUT. THIS REACTION, AS WELL AS THE SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS
14 OF SULPHUR DIOXIDE WITH THE OTHER AIR POLLUTANTS, SUCH AS
15 .NITROGEN DIOXIDE, PARTICULATE MATTER, AND EVEN SALT BROUGHT
16 IN BY THE OCEAN SPRAY PRESENT ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE IMPACT
17 OF REFINERY EMISSIONS THAT MUST BE STUDIED.
18 WE EXPR-ESSED THIS CONCERN IN OUR PREVIOUS
19 STATEMENT TO THE EPA DATED THE 1 3TH OF JUNE, 1975 IN REGARD
20 TO THE MACARIO PROJECT. IN THAT STATEMENT WE CITED
21 REFERENCES DESCRIBING THE ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES OF THE ACID
22 RAIN FALLOUT AND THE SYNERGISTIC COMBINATION OF SULPHUR
23 DIOXIDE AND NITROGEN DIOXIDE ON PLANT LIFE.
24 - THESE REFERENCES INDICATE SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE
25 COULD OCCUR EVEN WHEN THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE EMISSION LEVELS
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1 WERE BELOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL STANDARDS BECAUSE OF THIS
2 MULTIPLIER EFFECT. THIS IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE IMPACT OF
3 SULPHUR DIXOIDE EMISSIONS ON THE PUBLIC HEALTH MUST BE
4 EXAMINED BY TH'E EPA.
5 IN CONCLUSION, WE MUST REAFFIRM OUR PREVIOUS
6 COMMENTS ON THE EPA EVALUATION, AND REQUEST THAT THE EPA
7 PERFORM A MORE THOROUGH AND INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS, GIVING
8 PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO ALTERNATIVE EVALUATIONS WITH RESPECT
9 TO THE END USE OF THE PRODUCTS OF THE REFINERY.
10 THANK YOU.
11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. K1MURA.
12 (APPLAUSE)
13 A COPY OF MR. KIMURA'S REMARKS WILL BE MARKED
14 AS EXHIBIT 23 FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS RECORD.
15 AND MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME QUESTIONS.
16 MR. COVINGTON: MR. KIMURA, WE VERY MUCH APPRE-
17 CIATE THE DETAILED ANALYSIS ON THIS. HOW CAN WE ARRANGE TO
18 GET WITH YOU OR WHOMEVER TO EXPLORE MORE FULLY THE DETAILS
19 OF YOUR CONCERNS?
20 MR. KIMURA: I HAD A LENGTHY DISCUSSION WITH
21 MR. JIM GROBJ? OF YOUR OFFICE LAST FRIDAY AND DID DISCUSS
22 SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS IN DETAIL.
23 MR. COVINGTON: so YOU THINK YOU HAVE CONVEYED
24 THE SPECIFICS OF THESE?
25 MR. KIMURA: IN LARGE MEASURE, YES.
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1 MR. COVINGTON: PERSONALLY FOLLOW UP, IF NEED BE.
2 MR. KIMURA: WITH RESPECT TO THE CHAPTER, YES.
3 MR. COVINGTON: THANK YOU.' THAT'S ALL.
4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
5 MR. WILLIAM H. COLE OF SANTA CLARA, VISTA,
6 DISTRICT COUNCIL OF CARPENTERS.
7 MR. COLE: MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE PANEL,
8 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: I AM IN A POSITION HERE SOMEWHAT
9 SIMILAR TO THE STORY OF THE WOMAN WHO WENT INTO THE DRESS
10 STORE AND SHE PICKED THE MOST UNGODLY DRESS YOU COULD FIND,
1] TRIED IT ON, AND SHE ASKED THE CLERK, "SALLY, HOW DOES THIS
12 LOOK ON ME?"
13 SHE SAYS, "IT'S YOU, IT'S YOU."
14 THE LADY SAYS, "FORGET I OWN 80 PERCENT OF THE
15 BUSINESS. HOW DOES IT LOOK ON ME?"
16 WELL, FORGET I'M REPRESENTING 7,000 CARPENTERS.
17 OF COURSE, ANY OF US AND ALL OF US IN THE BUILDING TRADES
18 WANT OUR MEN WORKING ON THAT PROJECT, BUT I THINK THAT'S
19 SOMETHING TO LOOK TO THAT'S A LOT FURTHER AWAY THAN THAT.
20 WE HAVE'AN INITIATIVE COMING UP IN JUNE TO STOP ATOMIC
21 ENERGY. THE SIERRA CLUB IS FAMOUS FOR STOPPING ONE OF THE
22 CLEANEST TYPES OF ENERGY WE CAN POSSIBLY GET, AND THAT'S
23 HYDROELECTRIC1TY. AN OUTFIT IS COMING IN HERE WITH A PROCESS
24 OF CLEANING UP FUEL OIL, WHICH OUR GOVERNMENT HAS FLATLY
25 TOLD THEM THEY EITHER GET CLEANED UP OR THEY AREN'T GOING TO
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1 BE USING THEM. LET'S STOP IT ALL.
2 IT WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL IF WE COULD ALL GO BACK
3 TO 150 YEARS AGO, GET A FEW ACRES, MAYBE GET A WINDMILL AND
4 A PUMP. 1 DON'T KNOW WHAT KEROSENE HAS, HOW IT'S RATED,
5 WHETHER IT'S IN THE POLLUTION BUSINESS, BUT WE COULD HAVE
6 KEROSENE. WE CAN'T RETURN TO THIS. WE ARE STUCK, WE ARE
7 GONE, WE ARE PAST THAT. THERE'S NOT A DAMN ONE OF US IN
8 HERE THAT WOULD SIT STILL NIGHT AFTER NIGHT TRYING TO' READ
9 SOMETHING WITH A KEROSENE LAMP. WE GET HYSTERICAL WHEN THE
10 TELEVISION GOES OFF.
1] THE AGENCY HAS TOLD YOU THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN
12 SECTIONS THAT CANNOT BE TURNED OFF WITH GAS, AND THAT'S YOUR
13 HOME, YOUR PERMANENT CUSTOMERS. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE
14 REST OF YOU, BUT I HAVEN'T LIKED THE PRICES OF MY FUEL BILLS
15 LATELY. BUT IF I WAS WORKING IN A PLANT AND THE GOVERNMENT
16 COME ALONG AND SAYS, "OKAY, HOLD IT, WE HAVEN'T GOT ENOUGH
17 GAS FOR YOUR PLANT, SO YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO BE WORKING TH.REE
18 DAYS," IF I LOST TWO DAYS AND ADDED THAT TO MY GAS AND ELECTR
19 BILL, IT WOULD-BE ONE HECK OF A BILL. I WOULD LIKE YOU TO
20 LOOK WITH AN OPEN MIND TO THE FUTURE.
2i A STATEMENT WAS MADE HERE BY ONE OF THE EARLIER
22 YOUNG MEN THAT SPOKE. IT'S FRUSTRATING BUILDING, BUT OUR
23 WHOLE COUNTRY WAS BASED ON BUILDING. OUR COUNTRY AND
24 EVERYTHING THAT WE BELIEVE IN HAS BEEN BUILT FROM THE EAST
25 COAST OUT WEST.
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1 THE STATEMENT WAS MADE THAT SATELLITE BUSINESSES
2 WOULD COME IN. MY G-OD, LET'S HOPE SO, LET'S HOPE SO. WHAT
3 ARE YOU GOING TO TELL YOUR YOUNG SON AND YOUR DAUGHTER WHEN
4 THEY GRADUATE OUT OF COLLEGE? "OKAY, YOUR TIME IS UP, GET
5 OUT OF TOWN, THERE ARE NO JOBS HERE FOR YOU."
6 I SPENT A GOOD AMOUNT OF TIME IN MY YOUNG LIFE
7 THINKING, "SURE, THERE WOULD BE NO JOB FOR YOU," NOT
g "SATELLITE BUSINESS, I DON'T WANT ANY OF THOSE."
9 THINK, IF YOU CAN, WITH AN OPEN MIND OF WHAT WE
1Q GOT AHEAD OF US IN THE FUTURE. IT'S NOT JUST A LITTLE
n IMMEDIATE THING RIGHT HERE IN CARLSBAD. THIS IS A NATIONAL
12 PROBLEM.
13 MR. PR1TTEN: MR. CHAIRMAN, I WISH TO
14 PROTEST. THIS IS A HEARING ON AIR POLLUTION. IF YOU WANT
,5 TO TALK ABOUT OTHER JOBS AND OTHER RELATED FACTORS --
16 (APPLAUSE) --
17 MR. COLE: i WILL TALK ON AIR POLLUTION.
]g CHAIRMAN WALKER: PLEASE DO.
19 MR. COLE: WE HAD SOME IN THIS ROOM HERE A WHILE
20 BACK. I BELIEVE IT WAS MR. SOMMERFIELD. 1 HOPE HE IS IN
21 HERE AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT. I WANT TO GET --
22 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I'D JUST AS SOON WE NOT ENGAGE
23 IN PERSONALITIES. WE HAVE A JOB TO DO. WE ARE HERE TO HEAR
24 WHAT- YOU HAVE TO SAY.
25 MR. COLE: YOUR AIR POLLUTION MAN STATED --
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1 CHAIRMAN WALKER: JUST A MINUTE. OUR JOB IS TO
2 LISTEN TO THE PUBLIC HERE. WE ARE GOING TO TRY TO DO OUR
3 BEST TO LISTEN TO ALL THE PEOPLE. WE UNDERSTAND IN ANY
4 PUBLIC HEARING PEOPLE DO DIGRESS, AND WE ARE TOLERANT OF
5 THAT. I AM WATCHING THE TIME ON PEOPLE, AND 1 DON'T THINK
6 IT HAS BEEN ABUSED.
7 MR. COLE: I WILL CLOSE.
8 CHAIRMAN WALKER: GO AHEAD, MR. COLE, AND SAY
9 WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. WE DON'T WANT TO CUT YOU SHORT.
10 MR- COLE: I'LL MAKE MY CLOSING WITH A HOPE YOU
11 WILL LOOK TO THE FUTURE ABILITY OF A REFINERY TO PRODUCE
12 FUEL THAT WILL BE CLEAN FOR YOUR ENVIRONMENT.
13 (APPLAUSE)
14 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. COLE.
15 FOR THE RECORD, WE WILL NOTE THAT MR. COLE TOOK
16 FIVE MINUTES.
17 MR. HAROLD WOLFF OF SNEAD DRIVE, OCEANSIDE.
18 MR. WOLFF: HAROLD WOLFF, PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER,
19 STATE OF CALIFORNIA. CHEMICAL ENGINEER, RETIRED AT THE
20 PRESENT TIME. MY BACKGROUND IS VERY MUCH LIKE MR. KAPLAN'S,
21 40 YEARS IN THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRY.
22 CHAIRMAN WALKER: DO WE HAVE ANY ELECTRICAL
23 ENGINEERS THAT CAN TELL US WHY WE'RE GETTING THIS BUZZ?
24 MR. WOLFF: NO, I'M ONLY CHEMICAL.
25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: GO AHEAD.
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MR. WOLFF: AND i WANT TO REITERATE MR. KAPLAN'S
2 REMARKS ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE APPRAISAL THAT HAS BEEN
3 MADE BY EPA ON THE BASIS OF THE INFORMATION THEY HAVE. FROM
4 WHAT I SAW, 1 THINK IT WAS A HIGHLY CREDITABLE AND FAIR
5 APPRAISAL.
6 HOWEVER, THERE'S ONE MAJOR DISCREPANCY THAT I
7 NOTED IN GOING OVER THE MATER IAL THAT EPA FORWARDED, AND THAT
8 IS RELATED TO THE EMISSIONS FROM THE FLARE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF
9 SYSTEM. NOW, THE EMISSIONS FROM THE FLARE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF
10 SYSTEMS WERE SHOWN UNDER UPSET CONDITIONS WITH THE ONLY
EMISSION AS HYDROCARBONS. NOW, 1 HAVE NOT SEEN THE DETAILED
PROCESSING, BUT JUST THE BULK FLUOR I DE- RI M OF THE SULPHUR
RECOVERY PLANT, WHICH I ASSUME WOULD ALSO BE TIED INTO THE
FLARE SYSTEM AND THE PRESSURE-RELIEF SYSTEM, AND THERE WOULD
BE NO HYDROCARBON EMISSIONS FROM THE SULPHUR RECOVERY PLANT.
IT WOULD HAVE TO BE FORMS OF SULPHUR.
IN REVIEWING THE PROCESS FROM DESULPHURIZATI ON
BY THE DIETHYLNOL DESULPHURIZAT I ON PROCESS, SULPHUR IS TURNED
INTO HYDROGEN SULPHIDE. HYDROGEN SULPHIDE, A GAS ITSELF,
IS HIGHLY TOXIC IN ITS PURE FORM. IN PARTS PER MILLION IT
IS LETHAL. SO, THE INVENTORY OF HYDROGEN SULPHIDE IN THE
PLANT MUST NECESSARILY BE LOW FROM THE HYDROGEN SULPHIDE
COMBUSTION AND REACTION THAT TAKES PLACE WHICH CHANGES THE
SULPHUR FROM HYDROGEN SULPHIDE TO ELEMENTAL SULPHIDE. THIS
25 PROCESS IS NOT A REFINING PROCESS, IT'S NOT ONE THAT MAKES
11
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1 FUEL; IT IS A CHEMICAL PLANT PROCESS, AND ] WISH TO POINT
2 THIS OUT IN THE DESIGN OF A REFINING PROCESS.
3 SERVICE FACTORS OF 98 PERCENT OR MORE CAN BE
OBTAINED. THAT IS THE ON-STREAM TIME WHERE SHUTDOWNS CAN
5 BE PLANNED, LET'S SAY, SOMETHING LIKE SIX DAYS A YEARS, A
6 WEEK A YEAR. YOU CAN PLAN THESE SHUTDOWNS AND TAKE CARE OF
7 ALL YOUR MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS. BUT FROM MY EXPERIENCE
8 IN THE OPERATION OF CHEMICAL PLANTS, THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE,
9 PARTICULARLY IN SUCH SYSTEMS WHICH ARE HIGHLY CORROSIVE
10 AND TEND TO PLUG. THESE MAINTENANCE ITEMS HAVE TO BE TAKEN
H CARE OF B^ IMMEDIATE SHUTDOWNS.
12 WHEN A CHEMICAL PLANT IS IMMEDIATELY SHUT DOWN,
,3 THE PRODUCTS IN INVENTORY WITHIN THE PLANT HAVE TO BE FLARED.
14 THESE PRODUCTS WOULD BE FLARED WHERE THE H2S WOULD BE FORMED
15 INTO CONCENTRATED SULPHUR DIOXIDE.
16 ALONG THIS VEIN, THIS PRODUCT, DEPENDING ON THE
17 HEIGHT OF THE FLARE, WHICH WAS NOT MENTIONED, WOULD THEN
18 BE ADDED TO THE TOTAL ATMOSPHERE. AND IN TIMES OF UPSET
19 THERE WILL BE VERY HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF S02. THESE HAVE
20 .NOT BEEN TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN THE EVALUATION OF THE
21 FLARE SYSTEM AND, AS EAR AS I CAN SEE, WERE NOT IN ANY WAY
22 IN THE ESTIMATES OF THE EMISSIONS.
23 NORMALLY A CHEMICAL PLANT WILL HAVE APPROXIMATELY
24 A 90 PERCENT STREAM FACTOR. MAYBE UP TO 92 OR 93 PERCENT.
25 SO, HERE YOU HAVE A REFINERY WITH A 98 PERCENT STREAM FACTOR
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1 AND A CHEMICAL PLANT WITH SOME LOWER STREAM FACTOR. NOW, THE
2 REFINERY WILL BE HANDLING PRODUCT VALUE OF, LET'S SAY,
3 100,000 BARRELS A DAY OF OIL AT ROUGHLY $10 A BARREL. THAT
4 WILL BE A MILLION DOLLARS A DAY. THE CHEMICAL PRODUCT, OR
5 SULPHUR RECOVERY UNIT, WILL HANDLE A PRODUCT OF 200 TONS A
6 DAY, WHICH, ON THE OUTSIDE, WOULD BRING $100 A TON OR $200
7 A DAY. SO, HERE THE TAIL WAGS THE DOG, IN WHICH THE REFINERY
8 WILL BE OPERATED AND CHEMICAL PLANT IN PART WILL -BE DOWN AND
9 THE PRODUCT OF THE DESULPHURIZATI ON WILL BE FLARED. IT WILL
10 BE FLARED AT A RATE, DEPENDING ON THE INPUT, WHICH I DON'T
11 HAVE, OF SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF 2200 TO 3000 TONS A DAY
12 OF SULPHUR DIOXIDE.
13 NOW, THIS HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED IN ANY OF THE
14 DESIGN PLANS 1 HAVE SEEN AS TO WHAT WILL HAPPEN DURING UPSET
15 CONDITIONS OF THIS KIND.
16 FURTHERMORE, IN THE START OF A NEW PLANT--AND I
17 HAVE BEEN ON A NUMBER OF THEM--THERE IS A PERIOD IN WHICH A
18 PLANT IS BROKEN IN, AND THERE ARE UPSETS AND THERE ARE UPS
19 AND DOWNS. DURING THIS PERIOD THESE PLANTS WILL BE UP AND
20 DOWN OVER THE FIRST THREE- TO SIX- TO EIGHT-MONTH PERIOD,
21 DEPENDING ON THE QUALITY OF THE MATERIALS, THE QUALITY OF
22 THE ENGINEERING, THE CONSTRUCTION THAT HAS BEEN DONE. AND
23 DURING THESE PERIODS YOU WILL HAVE VERY MUCH EXCESSIVE FLARE
24 SO THAT IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF OPERATION I BELIEVE YOU
25 CAN EXPECT A NUMBER OF UPSETS. I HAVE NOT SEEN A CHEMICAL
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1 PLANT COME ON STREAM, PARTICULARLY A NEW PLANT, A DESIGN OF
2 THIS KIND, THAT CAN BE GUARANTEED A SMOOTH START-UP. IT'S
3 MUCH WORSE THAN BREAKING IN A NEW CAR.
4 SO, ON THIS BASIS, I WOULD URGE EPA TO DEFER
5 THEIR APPROVAL OF THIS UNTIL MORE DETAILED INFORMATION IS
6 AVAILABLE IN RELATION TO HOW THE EMERGENCY PLANNING AND UPSET
7 CONDITIONS OF THE CHEMICAL PLANT OR THE CHEMICAL PART OF THE
8 AIR WILL BE HANDLED.
9 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, SIR.
10 MR. SW1CKER HAS SOME QUESTIONS.
11 MR. SWICKER: YOU'RE INDICATING MALFUNCTIONS,
12 BREAKDOWNS WOULD OCCUR BEYOND THE BREAK-IN PERIOD. HOW OFTEN
13 WOULD YOU ESTIMATE, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, SUCH BREAKDOWNS
14 AND MALFUNCTIONS MIGHT TEND TO OCCUR IN A RECOVERY OF THIS
15 TYPE?
16 MR. WOLFF: I WOULD SAY ON THE BASIS OF NEW
17 DESIGN TECHNOLOGY, IF ONE ATTAINED AFTER TWO TO THREE YEARS
18 A 90 TO 95 PERCENT STREAM FACTOR, THIS WOULD BE HIGHLY
i
19 SATISFACTORY FOR THE NATURE OF THIS OPERATION.
20 THIS IS A FOULING SYSTEM, IT'S HIGHLY CORROSIVE.
21 HEAT EXCHANGES PLUG, THE PRODUCTS OF CORROSION COME OUT ALL j
22 OVER, PUMPS SHUT DOWN. NOW, THIS CAN BE TAKEN CARE OF IN A
23 FASHION BY PUMPS, BY HAVING ADDITIONAL UNITS WHICH WOULD
24 TAKE- CARE OF THESE THINGS. BUT NOT HAVING THE DETAILED
25 DESIGN OF THE UNIT, ONE CANNOT VISUALIZE THE OPERAT1 ON' UNTIL
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1 THE DESIGN HAS BEEN MADE.
2 THE NAVY TAKES CARE OF SUCH BREAKDOWNS BY HAVING
3 REPLICATION -- DUPLICATION OF EQUIPMENT. THEY HAVE, SAY,
4 THREE OR FOUR WAYS TO GO WHEN THERE'S A BREAKDOWN. BUT,
5 NORMALLY, IN A REFINERY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE. THEY LIKE TO
6 MAKE THEM SINGLE-TRA1N. THEY SPARE CERTAIN THINGS. BUT WHEN
7 A MAJOR BREAKDOWN OCCURS, BANG, THAT UNIT IS SHUT DOWN,
8 EVERYTHING GOES TO THE FLARE, AND YOU CAN SEE IT. AND WHEN
9 H2S BURNS, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL NICE BLUISH GREEN AND RAINS DOWN
10 AND THE PAINT -- 1 DON'T WANT TO GET EMOTIONAL.
11 (APPLAUSE)
12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE STILL HAVE A LARGE NUMBER
13 OF CARDS TO GO, BUT THE REPORTER HAS BEEN GOING FULL SPEED
14 SINCE WE RECONVENED AFTER THE NOON RECESS. WE WILL NOW TAKE
15 A 15-MINUTE RECESS. AND I SHOULD LIKE TO BE VERY PROMPT
16 ABOUT THAT. 15 MINUTES.
17 (RECESS)
lg CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL GO BACK ON THE RECORD
19
20
21
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24
25
NOW. WE HAVE FOUND THE ANNOYING BUZZ THAT WAS IN THE MICRO-
PHONES UP HERE AT THE DAIS, SO THOSE UP HERE ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO RAISE OUR VOICES IN ORDER TO REACH YOU (BUZZ)
(LAUGHTER).
DURING THE RECESS IT WAS QUIET.
WE DO HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING TO DO AT THIS TIME.
SOME OF THE EXHIBITS SUBMITTED BY THE REFINERY THIS MORNING
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126
HAVE NOW BEEN REPRODUCED SO WE CAN 1NCORPORATE . THEM IN THE
RECORD, AND THE BAR GRAPH THAT WAS DISCUSSED WILL BE EXHIBIT
NO. 24.
THE CHART SHOWING SULPHUR DISTRIBUTION IN WORLD
CRUDE RESERVES WILL BE EXHIBIT 23.
AND A SIMPLIFIED REFINERY PROCESS SCHEME WILL BE
E XHIBIT 26.
THE AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS SHOWN WILL BE
EXHIBIT 27.
THE SKETCH MAP WILL BE EXHIBIT 28.
THE DOCUMENT THAT WAS REFERRED TO THIS MORNING,
THE PRESS RELEASE OF THE AGENCY DATED MAY 7TH, 1975, THAT
WAS NOT HERETOFORE INTRODUCED, WILL BE EXHIBIT 2.9-
THE NEXT CARD IS FOR ED AND NAOMI WEBER, SAN
D1EGUITO. 1 WILL NOT PRESUME THAT EITHER SPEAKS FOR THE
OTHER. ARE THEY BOTH HERE? DO THEY BOTH WANT TO SPEAK?
OR IS ElTHER HERE?
NO SHOW.
THE NEXT CARD IS MARILYN MACKETT, VANTAGE WAY,
REPRESENTING THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS.
MS. MACKETT: MY NAME IS MARILYN MACKETT, AND I
LIVE AT 2438 VANTAGE WAY, DEL MAR. 1 AM SPEAKING TODAY FOR
THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY, WHICH IS
COMPOSED OF FIVE LOCAL LEAGUES OF AROUND A THOUSAND MEMBERS
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT MICROPHONE WORKS.
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1 MS. MACKETT: FOR SEVERAL DECADES OUR NATIONAL
2 ORGANIZATION, THE LEAGUE OF WOMAN VOTERS OF THE UNITED
3 STATES, HAS ACTIVELY WORKED FOR IMPROVEMENT IN OUR ENVIRON-
4 MENT. EXTENSIVE STUDIES HAVE BEEN MADE BY LEAGUE MEMBERS OF
5 THE ISSUES OF AIR QUALITY AND ENERGY CONSERVATION.
6 THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY
7 COMMENDS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY FOR BEING HERE
8 TODAY SO WE CAN PARTICIPATE WITHIN THE HEARING REGARDING THE
9 REFINERY PROPOSAL. THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN- DIEGO
10 COUNTY BELIEVES PUBLIC INTEREST DEMANDS THAT WE NOT MEET OUR
11 ENERGY NEEDS BY PERMITTING AIR POLLUTION TO RISE TO LEVELS
12 THAT ENDANGER HUMAN HEALTH. WE ARE CONCERNED THAT ALTHOUGH
13 THE TOTAL REGION-WIDE POLLUTANT BURDEN MAY BE REDUCED BY
14 INCREASED USE OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTS FROM THE REFINERY,
15 SULPHUR DIOXIDE AND, TO A LESSER EXTENT, NITROGEN DIOXIDE,
16 EMITTED AT THE PLANT SITE WILL ADVERSELY AFFECT LIFE WITHIN .
17 THE VICINITY OF THE PLANT. WE ARE CONCERNED THAT SUCH
18 EMISSIONS WILL NOT BE DIFFUSED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SAN
19 DIEGO COUNTY REGION AND THUS WILL NOT BE DILUTED, A TRADE-OFF
20 WE CONSIDER UNACCEPTABLE. THUS, THE IMPACT ON THE FEW IS
21 ALSO NECESSARY TO CONSIDER.
22 THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY
23 QUESTIONS EPA'S BASING ITS TENTATIVE DECISION TO APPROVE
24 THE REFINERY PROJECT ON THE PREMISE THAT ALL OF THE REFINERY'S
25 PRODUCTS WILL BE USED IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL
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1 REGION WHEN NO PROPOSAL IS MADE FOR A MEANS OF GUARANTEEING
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LOCAL--THAT IS, SAN DIEGO COUNTY--PRODUCT DISTRIBUTION.
THE LEAGUE NOTES THAT NO MENTION IS MADE IN
ERA'S REFINERY REPORT OF ATTACHING CONDITIONS TO AN EPA
PERMIT THAT WOULD CALL FOR BEST AVAILABLE CONTROL TECHNOLOGY
IN THE CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION OF THE REFINERY. WE
STRONGLY URGE PROVISIONS FOR SUCH CONDITIONS.
SEVERAL DISTINCT METEOROLOGICAL ASPECTS OF THE
COASTAL ZONE APPEAR TO COMBINE TO CREATE AN UNUSUALLY
CRITICAL AIR AREA IN NORTH SAN DIEGO COUNTY. THE LEAGUE
OF WOMEN VOTERS BELIEVES, THEREFORE, THAT ANY DECISION THAT
MIGHT RESULT IN FURTHER DEGRADATION OF AIR QUALITY SHOULD
BE MADE ONLY WITH SUBSTANTIAL, UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION BASED
ON ACTUAL DATA DERIVED FROM A FAR MORE COMPLETE SYSTEM OF
MONITORING THAN HAS EXISTED UP TO THE PRESENT TIME BOTH IN
THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY AND SURROUNDING REGION OF THE PROPOSED
R'EFINERY.
WE STRONGLY URGE THAT YOUR AGENCY DELAY ANY
DECISION AT LEAST UNTIL THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY SMOG MODEL BEING
PREPARED BY THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY AIR POLLUTION CONTROL
DISTRICT AND THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION IS
REFINED, ENABLING FURTHER, MORE ACCURATE DETERMINATION OF
THE REAL AIR QUALITY IMPACT OF THE REFINERY. WE BELIEVE IT
IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT THAT A FINAL DECISION BY EPA NOT BE
MADE UNTIL POSSIBLE SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS OF THE ENCINA POWER
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1 PLANT AND THE REFINERY ARE KNOWN.
2 (APPLAUSE)
3, CHAIRMAN WALKER: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR
4 REMARKS?
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MS. MACKETT: YES, I HAVE GIVEN ONE TO YOUR
COORD!NATOR.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. IT WILL BE MARKED
EXHIBIT 30.
I HAVE A CARD FROM JEAN SLOAN.
MS. SLOAN: YOU WANT ME ALL THE WAY UP TO THE
PODIUM? I MERELY WISH TO ENDORSE THE FOREGOING STATEMENTS.
I COME FROM ESCONDIDO.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. AND YOU ARE THE
JEAN SLOAN OF ESCONDIDO?
MS. SLOAN: 1929 SORRENTINO DRIVE.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU..
MR. COVINGTOIM: BEFORE WE LOSE ANY OF YOU: WE
HAVE RECEIVED A VARIETY OF QUESTIONS WHICH WE HAVE ANSWERED
SOME DURING THESE INFORMAL BREAKS OR DISCUSSIONS AND, IN
OTHER CASES, PERHAPS, WE HAVE NOT. IN SOME CASES THE
QUESTIONS ARE BEYOND OUR ABILITY TO RESPOND TO INASMUCH AS
THEY DIRECTLY RELATE TO THE COMPANY INVOLVED. WHAT WE WOULD
PROPOSE TO DO AT THE - AS WE GET ON WITH THE HEARING AND
BRING IT TO A CONCLUSION, IS TO AGAIN GO OFF THE RECORD AND
TO ANSWER ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ANSWERED.
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1 30
1 THOSE THAT YOU RAISED WITH US.
2 I HAVE ASKED IF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE COMPANY
3 COULD OR WOULD REMAIN TO ANSWER THOSE THAT ARE WITHIN THEIR
4 PURVIEW. SO, IF THAT'S ACCEPTABLE, THIS IS THE WAY WE WOULD
5 TRY TO HANDLE THAT PART OF THE PROGRAM.
6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 NOW HAVE A CARD FOR JOAN
7 JACKSON. IT LOOKS LIKE THE SAME NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE JOAN
8 JACKSON WHO SPOKE PREVIOUSLY. ARE THERE TWO OF YOU?
9 ALL RIGHT.
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: SURE IT'S NOT GENE
11 JACKSON?
12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: NO, THIS IS PRINTED, AND I
13 CAN READ IT QUITE CLEARLY. MAYBE THE EARLIER ONE IS GENE.
14 SHOULD 1 LOOK BACK.
15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: NO.
16 CHAIRMAN WALKER: L. W. RASH, HIGHLAND DRIVE,
17 CARLSBAD.
18 MR. RASH: MR. NAME IS RASH. I LIVE AT
19 4156 HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD, AND I'M SPEAKING FOR MYSELF.
20 INASMUCH AS THE GROUND RULES THAT YOU LAID OUT
21 THIS MORNING HAVE BEEN VIOLATED IN SEVERAL CASES, I HOPE YOU
22 WILL BEAR WITH ME A BRIEF DEPARTURE.
23 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL BEAR WITH YOU FOR A
24 SHORT TIME, BUT RESTRAIN YOURSELF.
25 MR. RASH: FIRST, IT SEEMS IRONIC TO ME THESE
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1 31
HEARINGS ARE BEING HELD AND THE NEWSPAPERS ARE CARRYING
BANNER HEADLINES, THE TV IS DEVOTING SOME TIME TO IT ON
THE EVENING NEWS, THAT AN OIL REFINERY IS GOING TO BUILT IN
CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA. BUT AS LATE AS NOON FRIDAY THERE WAS
NO OFFICIAL REQUEST MADE FOR SUCH A PROJECT TO BE BUILT IN
THE CITY OF CARLSBAD, AS TOLD TO ME BY THE CITY MANAGER.
WE FEEL IN THE ABSENCE OF A SPECIFIC PLAN, EXACTLY WHAT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS 855 ACRES, THAT THE CARLSBAD CITIZENS
SHOULD BE THE FIRST TO KNOW.
I ALSO BELIEVE, IF IT'S GOING TO BE HOME RULE
ANYWHERE ALONG THE LINE, THAT YOU START JUST HERE. IT'S
MY STRONG BELIEF THAT THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD THROUGH THEIR
ELECTED OFFICIALS SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE
FUTURE OF THE CITY IN WHICH WE ALL HOPE TO LIVE UNTIL WE DIE.
SOME OF US. IF THIS REFINERY IS BUILT IN THE PRESENT -- AT
THE PRESENT SITE THAT'S INDICATED, IT WILL SET A PRECEDENT
UNFAIRLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND, I DARE SAY, IN
THE WORLD. EVERYBODY TELLS US, EVEN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL,
WE ARE GOING TO HAVE 200,000 PEOPLE HERE IN A FEW YEARS, AND
THIS REFINERY REPRESENTS THE GEOGRAPHIC CENTER OF CARLSBAD
IN THAT POPULATION. IF THERE WERE OIL WELLS THERE PUMPING
THE OIL TO BE REFINED, I WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT.
THAT IS NOT THE CASE. ALL THIS OIL IS GOING TO BE -- HAVE TO
BE TRANSPORTED TO THIS LOCATION.
THE BY-PRODUCTS THAT ARE NOT USED HERE ARE GOING
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1 32
TO HAVE TO BE TRANSFERRED ELSEWHERE. AND THAT IS OF SOME
CONCERN TO THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD THAT LIVE HERE AND LOVE
THEIR BEACHES. AND BEGINNING TO SEE THE SUPERTANKERS ON
THE HORIZONS OF OUR BEACHES.
I FEEL LIKE I'M GOING TO HAVE TO BE FACETIOUS
FOR ONE MINUTE. THE GENTLEMAN'S REMARK THIS MORNING ABOUT
THE RETIRED PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY -- I'M RETIRED, AND I
THINK EVERYBODY HERE WILL RETIRE IF THEY LIVE LONG ENOUGH,
SO I THINK THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR. AND JUST FOR HIS INFORMA-
TION, 1 DO RESENT THE FACT HE IS NOT WORKING BECAUSE PART OF
MY TAXES IS PAID AS UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S ENOUGH DIGRESSION.
MR. RASH: WE HAD ANOTHER DEPARTURE AS TO THE
JOBS THAT'S GOING TO BE CREATED BY THIS OIL REFINERY IF IT
WENT IN. 1 HAVE VERY RECENTLY, AS MUCH AS S 1 X YEARS AGO,
MOVED FROM AN AREA WHERE THEY BUILT A REFINERY, WHERE THEY
BEGGED THEM TO COME AND BUILD IT. BUT THEY DIDN'T BUILD IT
IN THE CENTER OF TOWN; THEY BUILT IT SEVEN MILES OUT IN THE
SWAMP. AND THEY HAD TO HIRE TRUCKS TO DRAW THE EARTH TO
BUILD IT ON, TO PUT IT IN THE SWAMP. 1 AM SPEAKING OF THE
STANDARD OIL COMPANY IN PASCAGOULA, MISSISSIPPI.
OVER THE YEARS I WATCHED IT BEING BUILT AND I
WATCHED WHO BUILT IT. WE HAD PEOPLE FROM ALABAMA, ARKANSAS,
TEXAS, OKALHOMA, EVERYWHERE YOU COULD THINK OF POUR INTO
THAT TOWN TO BUILD THAT OIL REFINERY BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE
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1 EXPERTISE TO BUILD OIL REFINERIES BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR
2 BUSINESS. AND FOR THESE LOCAL PIPEFITTERS GOING TO GET A
3 JOB TO BUILD THAT REFINERY, THAT SEEMS REMOTE TO ME. I KNOW,
4 BECAUSE I WAS THERE.
5 WHEN THE OIL REFINERY WAS BUILT WITHIN FIVE
6 YEARS -- NOW I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS DOCUMENTED PROOF THAT
7 THIS WAS THE CAUSE OR THE EFFECT OF THE REFINERY, BUT IT'S
8 A FACT THAT I KNOW. I WATCHED THE HOUSES TURN YELLOW BECAUSE
9 OF THE RELATED INDUSTRY THAT CAME IN THERE, WHICH IS BEYOND
10 THE IMAGINATION OF THE PEOPLE HERE THAT LIVE IN CARLSBAD, AS
]] CLEAN AS OUR AIR IS HERE NOW. WE HAD FISH MEAL PLANTS, WE
12 HAD CHEMICAL FERTILIZER PLANTS, WE HAD PULP MILLS, BRICKYARDS,
13 PETROCHEMICAL PLANTS, AND IT GOES ALL DOWN THE LINE. I'M NOT
14 SAYING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE, BUT IT CERTAINLY CAN
15 HAPPEN.
16 WHAT I'M SAYING, WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IS
17 GOING TO BE BUILT IN THE 855 ACRES SURROUNDING THIS OIL
18 REFINERY. SO, I SAY AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE THIS HEARING IS
19 PREMATURE WITHOUT AN EIR THAT THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD CAN
20 LOOK TO SEE WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING THEMSELVES IN FOR.
21 THANKS VERY MUCH FOR LETTING ME SAY MY PIECE.
22 (APPLAUSE)
23 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 HAVE A CARD HERE FOR MISS
24 HILDA A. WENR1CK, BUT MY NOTE SAYS SHE EARLIER INDICATED
25 SHE DID NOT CARE TO SPEAK. IS SHE HERE? DOES SHE WISH TO
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1 SPEAK?
2 MS. WENRICK: NO. IT HAS BEEN JUSTLY SAID.
3 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MISS WENRICK.
4 MS. POPPY DEMARCO.
5 MS. LAW: I'M NOT POPPY. SHE HAD TO GO HOME.
6 BUT SHE ASKED ME TO SUBMIT THIS FOR YOUR RECORDS.
7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WOULD YOU TELL us WHAT THIS
8 NAME 1S ?
9 • MS. LAW: HER NAME IS POPPY DEMARCO, D-E-M-A-R-C-C
10 POPPY TENDS TO WRITE KIND OF FAST.
11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: AND SHE REPRESENTS THE --
12 MS. LAW: THE SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING
13 GROUP. SHE IS THE E1R SUBCOMMITTEE PLANNING CHAIRMAN, AND
14 SHE HAS BROUGHT A LETTER FROM THE CHAIRMAN, JOHN BOST, FROM
15 THE SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP, WHICH I WOULD LIKE
16 TO SUBMIT. I WOULD LIKE TO READ POPPY'S NOTES.
17 "THE SAN DIEGUITO PLANNING GROUP POSITION: WE
18 ARE SUBMITTING A WRITTEN COMMENT STATING SOME OF OUR REAL
19 CONCERNS ABOUT THE PROPOSED REFINERY. IN SUMMARY, WE ARE
20 CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOLLOWING THINGS:
21 "1. HAS NEED FOR THE REFINERY REALLY BEEN
22 ESTABLISHED? SEE THE UNITED STATES GEOGRAPHICAL SURVEY
23 PROJECTED NEED FOR OIL.
24 "2. HAVE ALTERNATIVES BEEN ADEQUATELY CONSIDERED,
25 INCLUDING A REFINERY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, OR REBUILDING OR
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1 ADAPTING CURRENTLY OPERATING REFINERIES TO USE LOW SULPHUR?
2 "3. WHAT WILL BE THE EFFECTS ON LOCAL AGRICULTURE
3 OR OF THE LOCAL AIR QUALITY LEVELS?
4 "4. WHAT WILL BE OTHER SECONDARY EFFECTS, SUCH
5 AS INCREASED TRAFFIC, WAYS OF BRINGING IN RAW MATERIAL, NEW
6 INDUSTRY INDUCED?
1 ' "5. EFFECT OF ODORS ON THE TOURIST INDUSTRY.
8 "6. EFFECT OF SPILLS, ACCIDENTS, FIRES, ET
9 CETERA."
10 THEY'RE ALL CONTAINED IN THIS LETTER WHICH I GIVE
11 TO YOU.
12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. AND WOULD YOU
13 1 DENT] FY YOURSELF.
14 MS. LAW: MY NAME IS CAROL LAW, AND I'M GOING
15 TO BE SPEAKING FOR MYSELF. I AM A MEMBER OF THE EIR
16 SUBCOMMITTEE.
17 (APPLAUSE)
18 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THE STATEMENT FROM THE SAN
19 DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP WILL BE EXHIBIT NO. 31,
20 AND THE DRAFT OF THE STATEMENT, TWO PAGES, WHICH WE WILL
21 MAKE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS EXHIBIT 32.
22 OLIVE WOODRIDGE, ALPINE, CALIFORNIA.
23 MS. WOOLDR1DGE: IN ORDER TO HAVE THIS ENTERED
24 AS PART OF THE RECORD, DO 1 HAVE TO TURN IN MY WRITTEN
25 STATEMENT?
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CHAIRMAN WALKER: IT'S BEING TRANSCRIBED BY THE
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APPRECIATE IT BEING IN THE RECORD, IN ANY CASE.
MS. WOOLDR1DGE: OKAY. THE ONLY PART THAT I
WILL SUBMIT AS PART OF THE RECORD.
SHOULD I IDENTIFY MYSELF FIRST?
CHAIRMAN WALKER: YES, PLEASE DO.
MS. WOOLDRIDGE: MY NAME IS OLIVE WOOLDRIDGE.
1 AM A LIFETIME RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY. 38 YEARS OF
THAT HAS BEEN IN. A SMALL COMMUNITY, UNINCORPORATED, IN EAST
COUNTY, 30 MILES EAST OF SAN DIEGO.
A COPY OF THE POSTER THAT ) WOULD LIKE TO SUBMIT
TO EVIDENCE WAS PART OF THE MAYORAL I TY CAMPAIGN OF 1917 IN
SAN DIEGO, AND IT SAYS, "WHICH DO YOU PREFER? GERANIUMS
VERSUS SMOKESTACKS." THE SMOKESTACKS SAY "REAL PROSPERITY"
AND APPARENTLY THE MAYOR WOULD LIKE THE CLIMATE TO STAY NICE.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: WHO WON THAT CAMPAIGN?
MS. WOOLDRIDGE: YOU HAVE TO READ THE ARTICLE.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL MARK THIS.
MS. WOOLDRIDGE:. IT'S AN AGE-OLD DEBATE, AND 1
DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE WILL BE ABLE TO SOLVE THIS.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL MARK THIS EXHIBIT 33.
MS. WOOLDR1DGE: BECAUSE OF THE RECENT OBJECTIONS
TO TALKING ABOUT EMPLOYMENT VERSUS, YOU KNOW, JOBS VERSUS
THE REFINERY, 1 MIGHT STRIKE MY FIRST PAGE OR I MIGHT BE
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PERMITTED A SHORT REBUTTAL. I AM A CONSTRUCTION WORKER'S
WIFE. MY FAMILY HAS BEEN DEPENDENT ON THIS TYPE OF EMPLOYMENT
FOR A LONG TIME. THE LEADERSHIP OF THE UNIONS IN BUILDING
CONTRACTING TRADES MAY FEEL VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE
INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS. MY HUSBAND IS ONE.
WE FULLY REALIZE THERE WILL BE LONG PERIODS OF
UNEMPLOYMENT AS LONG AS WE REMAIN CONSTRUCTION-EMPLOYED. WE
CANNOT, HOWEVER, SUPPORT THE CONCEPT THAT THE WORKING MAN
COMES FIRST AT ALL COST. AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT WOULD SEEM
THAT A GREAT DEAL OF CONSTRUCTION EMPLOYMENT MAY WELL BE
GENERATED BY THE CLEANING UP OF OUR ENVIRONMENT, AND 1
QUESTION THAT THE MACAR10 REFINERY IS OF THAT NATURE.
(APPLAUSE)
I AM OPPOSED TO THE REFINERY IN SPITE OF
ASSURANCES GIVEN BY PROPONENTS. I CANNOT HELP BUT FEEL THAT
IT IS AT LEAST ONE MORE NAIL IN THE COFFIN. ALPINE, WHERE
MY HOME IS, IS A SMALL COMMUNITY WHERE PEOPLE USED TO COME
WHEN SUFFERING FROM LUNG DISEASES OFTEN AGGRAVATED, IF NOT
CAUSED, BY CITY AIR AND CITY LIFE. OUR AIR IN THIS SMALL
COMMUNITY IS THREATENED BY THE PROPOSED REFINERY BECAUSE OF
THE PREVAILING WINDS WESTERLY THAT ARE PUSHING COASTAL
POLLUTION FARTHER AND FARTHER EAST. ALPINE.IS PRESENTLY
EXPERIENCING SMOGGY DAYS, SMOGGY DAYS WE DIDN'T USED TO HAVE.
1 SUPPORT THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE .CARLSBAD
COMMUNITY CAUSE, LEUCAD1A TOWN COUNCIL, MR. SOMMERVILLE,
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1 MR. GRAY. AND SINCE I HAVE MADE THESE NOTES, MANY OTHERS.
2 I HAVE SUBMITTED SOME QUESTIONS, AND I HOPE I
3 CAN HEAR OR READ THE ANSWERS, AND HOPE THAT BOTH THE QUESTIONS
4 AND ANSWERS WILL BE MADE A PART OF THE RECORD.
5 I HEARD A PARTIAL ANSWER TO THE.EXPLOIT OF
6 ENERGY FROM THE SAN DIEGO GAS 5 ELECTRIC GENTLEMAN.
7 HOWEVER, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SAN ONOFRE NUCLEAR
8 PLANT IS ONLY 20 PERCENT FOR SAN DIEGO COUNTY AS FAR AS
9 WHAT'S BEING -- WHAT ENERGY IS BEING GENERATED. THERE IS
10 ONLY GOING TO BE 20 PERCENT OF ITS ENERGY TO SAN DIEGO COUNTY.
11 THE REST WILL BE EXPORTED AND BELONGS PARTIALLY TO SOUTHERN
12 CALIFORNIA EDISON.
13 OH, I ALSO NOTICED THAT THE SAN DIEGO GAS 5
14 ELECTRIC MAN DIDN'T MENTION THE NUMBER OF SUNSHINY DAYS THAT
15 WE HAVE IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE POWER
16 SOURCE, SOLAR POWER.
17 I THINK THAT'S ABOUT IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
18 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
19 (APPLAUSE)
20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: CHRIS CHRISTIE OF HIGHLAND
21 DRIVE, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING HERSELF.
22 CHRISTIE?
23 E.. W. ANDERSON OF SKYLINE ROAD, CARLSBAD.
24 E. W. ANDERSON?
25 J. B. HASSAN, CARLSBAD BOULEVARD, CARLSBAD.
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i MR. HASSAN: GENTLEMEN, I'M JIM HASSAN FROM
2 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD.
3 MR. SWICKER, IN VIEW OF THE FACT THAT YOU DIDN'T
4 GET AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION REGARDING THE PROBABLE
5 NUMERICAL VALUE OF BREAKDOWNS IN NEW REFINERIES, I CAN GIVE
6 YOU A FAIRLY COMPLETE BREAKDOWN ON WHAT HAPPENED IN BENICIA
7 OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS. IF YOU WANT, 1 WILL BE GLAD TO SEND
8 IT TO YOU.
9 MR. SWICKER: PLEASE DO.
10 MR. HASSAN: MOST OF THE REST OF THE STUFF i
11 HAVE TO SAY HAS BEEN SAID, AND I'LL JUST GIVE YOU THE GUT
12 ISSUE HERE.
13 WE HAD A MAN MAKING A SPEECH TO ONE OF THE
14 CITY CLUBS HERE RECENTLY, A MAN BY THE NAME OF FRAZEE. AND
15 WHEN ASKED IF SMOG CAN DAMAGE THE FLOWERS, FRAZEE ANSWERED
16 THAT THE UNIVERSITY STUDY THEY HAD COOPERATED WITH HAD SHOWN
17 THAT FLOWERS HAD BEEN ADVERSLY AFFECTED BY THE INCREASING
18 LEVEL OF OIL POLLUTION IN CARLSBAD. NOW, THIS IS THE MAM
19 WHO IS IN THE FLOWER BUSINESS, THIS IS THE MAN WHO PLANTS
20 BULBS EVERY MONDAY MORNING, OR HAS HIS TEAM DO IT, AND THIS
21 IS A MAN WHO IS INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENS TO FLOWERS.
22 THEREFORE, WHEN HE SAYS THESE FLOWERS AREN'T REACHING THEIR
23 ' PEAK, HE'S PRETTY NEAR THE BALL. !N HIS SPARE TIME, THIS
24 MAN IS THE MAYOR OF CARLSBAD AS WELL.
25 NOW, THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT'S COME UP IN
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THIS MEETING HERE IS GOING TO BE RATIONED THROUGH THE COMPANY.
I HEARD A MAN FROM THE GAS COMPANY AT THE COASTAL REGIONAL
THING IN SAN DIEGO SAY THIS SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS WAS GOING
TO BE DISPATCHED THROUGHOUT THE STATE. I DON'T SAY THIS IS
AN ACTUAL FACT, BUT IF 1 REMEMBER, THAT MAN'S NAME WAS
NUGENT. SO, IT WILL BE APPORTIONED THROUGHOUT THE STATE.
REGARDING THE AUTOMOBILES THAT SOMEBODY
MENTIONED. NOW, I LIVE SIX-TENTHS OF A MILE FROM THIS
EXISTING POWER PLANT UP HERE. I ONLY 'MENTI ON THIS BECAUSE
THE SAME PEOPLE ARE RELATED TO BOTH OF THESE FIRMS, THE GAS
COMPANY AND THIS PROPOSED REFINERY. MOW, THE DAY 1 DROVE
MY CAR UP THERE TO PROTEST THE FALLOUT FROM THE TUBES
BLOWING THE NIGHT BEFORE, I GOT AS FAR AS A MAN ON THE GATE,
AND HE TOLD ME THAT SOMEBODY NAMED R!CHERT WOULD WRITE ME A
LETTER OF APOLOGY, WHICH 1 NEEDED, OF COURSE. (LAUGHTER)
AND I NEVER GOT IT. I NEVER GOT THAT LETTER. BUT THE MAN
TWO HOUSES AWAY FROM ME WAS A LITTLE SMARTER AND PROTESTED
TO THE HARTFORD INSURANCE COMPANY, AND THEY REPAINTED HIS
CAR.
THIS IS AIRBORNE STUFF I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT
LANDS ON AUTOMOBILES. FROM FRAZEE'S FLOWERS, MY ROOFTOP,
AND MY BACKYARD, INCLUDING MY SWIMMING POOL BACK THERE.
I SPOKE TO A WOMAN AT A MEETING LAST NIGHT, AND SHE WAS
PROTESTING FALLOUT IN HER SWIMMING POOL, AND SHE SAID SHE
HAD PHONED TO PROTEST THIS THING AND THE MAN THERE HAS A
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SENSE OF HUMOR OR SOMETHING, BUT HE TOLD THIS WOMAN THAT IT
HAD TO BE ;COMING FROM THE OIL OFF THE BODIES OF HER GUESTS
THAT::,SWIM IN THAT TANK. (LAUGHTER) TRUE.
NOW, AT THE FIRST MEETING THAT THIS RE.'FINERY
ISSUE EVER .CONVENED -- THIS WAS A MEETING BACK, I BELIEVE,
IN NOVEMBER '73, WHEN NOBODY KNEW WHO THEY WERE WORKING FOR,
NOBODY REALLY KNEW WHERE THIS THING WAS GOING TO BE, NOBODY
REALLY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE THERE, AND TODAY IS
THE FIRST SEMI, LET'S SAY, DEFINITE STATEMENT I HAVE HEARD
WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE. I UNDERSTAND THEY'1 RE- NOT GOING
TO MAKE GASOLINE. BUT AT THAT TIME I DIDN'T KNOW AND THEY
DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE WORKING FOR JAPATUL, MACARIO,
OR SOME OTHER NAME. BUT THIS IS BEHIND THE THING.
THEY DID SPEAK OF THAT PIPE THAT GOES SOUTH,
WHICH WAS MENTIONED AT THAT THING, AND AT THAT TIME THEY
TOLD ME AND THE ASSEMBLAGE, OF COURSE, THAT PIPE WAS AT 95
PERCENT OF CAPACITY. THERE HAS BEEN NO NEW PIPES BUILT OUT
THERE. THEREFORE, ANY PRODUCTION THAT GOES OUT OF THIS
THING EITHER HAS TO GO IN NEW PIPES OR OVER THE ROAD. HERE .
WE COME BACK TO A REFERENCE THAT WAS MADE EARLIER THIS
AFTERNOON TO THAT ANCHORAGE OUT THERE. I DON'T EXPECT THAT
ANCHORAGE WILL BE LOADED WITH SUPERTANKERS BECAUSE THE
SUPERTANKERS THAT ARE BUILT NOW ARE GOING RIGHT OUT AND GOING
INTO-THE BONEYARD. THEY'RE NOT ECONOMICAL.
DOWN HERE THREE YEARS AGO THEY TIED UP ONE IN
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SAN DIEGO, BUT THE SEMI-SUPERTANKER, THE KIND THAT'S IN USE
RIGHT NOW, WILL CONTINUE TO BE USED, I BELIEVE. BUT 1
BELIEVE UNLESS THEY NEED A SUPER BULK CARRIAGE OUT OF THE
NORTH SLOPE, IN WHICH CASE I BELIEVE THAT ANCHORAGE OUT
THERE WILL BE USED FOR OFFLOADING OIL TO VARIOUS PARTS OF
THE STATE.
NOW, WE DON'T HAVE ANY FALLOUT OUT THERE UP UNTIL
NOW, BUT RIGHT NOW IS WHEN HISTORY STRIKES. I DON'T HAVE
A CRYSTAL BALL, BUT I WANT TO SAY THIS ABOUT SPILLAGE: 1000
YARDS OFF THE CARLSBAD PUBLIC BEACH WE HAVE THAT ANCHORAGE.
THE NEXT SHIP IN THERE WILL BE NUMBER 21 FOR THIS YEAR.
THAT COMES OUT TO THREE TANKERS A MONTH. WHATEVER IT COMES
OUT TO, THE NEXT ONE IS NUMBER 21. I'M NOT COUNTING THOSE
BARGES THAT COME IN THERE; I'M TALKING ABOUT SEAGOING VESSELS.
THOSE VESSELS ARE NINE HUNDRED AND SOMETHING LONG, 910, 1
BELIEVE, AND 105 WIDE, AND THEY HAVE A DRAFT UNDER THE WATER
OF 47 FEET. THEY WERE THE LAST SHIPS THAT WERE BU1.LT FOR
USE IN THE SUEZ CANAL PRIOR TO WHATEVER HAPPENED OVER THERE.
AND FOR THE PANAMA CANAL. THESE BIGGER THINGS, THEY DON'T
GO ANYWHERE. THEY HELP THEM AROUND.
BUT ONASSIS INTERESTS FINALLY GOT PERMISSION
UP IN MAINE, UP IN EASTPORT, I BELIEVE. THEY ASKED THE
ONASSIS INTERESTS: "WHAT PART OF THE EXPENSES FOR A SPILL
CLEANUP ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO ASSUME?" AND THERE'S BEEN
A RECENT RASH OF EXPLETIVE DELETEDS IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT
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WHAT THAT GUY SAID IS "EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES, NOT
ONE CENT MORE." THIS IS THE ONASSIS INTERESTS. HE'S GOING
TO PAY WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES.
1 THINK WE OUGHT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT
ANCHORAGE OUT THERE-. YOU GO TO THESE PEOPLE IN SAN DIEGO
GAS, AND THEY'RE PERFECTLY AT LIBERTY SAYING, "MAN, WHAT
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? THAT'S A STANDARD OIL TANKER OUT
THERE. THAT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. GET OUT OF HERE.
BRING YOUR COMPLAINT SOMEWHERE ELSE." AND THIS CAN HAPPEN.
I DON'T KNOW WHO OWNS THAT THING OUT THERE. I HAVE ASKED
OVER THE YEARS. NOBODY KNOWS. I HAVE ASKED WHO IS PAYING
FOR IT, AND NOBODY KNOWS. AT LEAST NOBODY THAT TALKS TO ME.
THAT'S ALL, FELLAS.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: FRED CLAYTON, PRUETT DRIVE,
VISTA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING HIMSELF.
FRED CLAYTON?
MARGARET WILHELM.
YOU LIVE ON HERMES STREET. WHAT CITY, AND WHO
DO YOU REPRESENT?
MS. WILHELM: I REPRESENT MYSELF, AND I LIVE
AT 828 HERMES, LEUCADIA.
I'M NOT A SPEAKER IN ANYTHING EXCEPT LIVING
AND BREATHING. AND 1 COULDN'T READ AN AIR POLLUTION CHART
IF IT HIT ME BETWEEN THE EYES, BUT THERE'S ONE THING I REALLY
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DO FEEL, GENTLEMEN. I REALLY FEEL THIS WHOLE MEETING IS AN
EXERCISE IN FUTILITY. AND I'M FAMILIAR WITH THESE KIND OF
MEETINGS. IT'S LIKE PLAYING WHO DO YOU TRUST. I FEEL LIKE
DAVID UP AGAINST GOLIATH WITH NO SLINGSHOT AND A VERY LITTLE
ROCK.
I'M IMPRESSED BY THE AWESOME GROUP OF OIL AND
LABOR PEOPLE HERE AND THE BIG TOP GUNS OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS &
ELECTRIC WHO ARE TELLING US WHAT'S GOOD FOR US. SO WHAT ELSE
IS NEW? BIG BUSINESS AND BIG GOVERNMENT HAVE ALWAYS TOLD THE
LITTLE GUYS WHAT'S GOOD FOR US. AND WHILE THEY'RE TELLING
US WHAT'S GOOD FOR US, THEY GOT THEIR HANDS IN OUR POCKETS.
(APPLAUSE)
IT'S ALMOST, LIKE WE'RE OPERATING ON AN ORWELL1AN
THEORY EXCEPT WE'RE NINE YEARS AHEAD OF OUR TIME. BIG
BUSINESS OPERATES ON FEAR. THEY MAKE THE LITTLE GUYS AFRAID.
I CAN ONLY URGE YOU GENTLEMEN ON THIS BOARD TO WAIT UNTIL
THE SAN DIEGO GAS -- NOT SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC, FOR GODS
SAKE. I CAN ONLY URGE YOU GENTLEMEN ON THIS BOARD TO WAIT
UNTIL THE SAN DIEGO AIR CONTROL DISTRICT CAN COMPLETELY
FINISH A HIGHLY DETAILED AIR POLLUTION ANALYSIS, AND THEN
MAYBE WE CAN FIND OUT WHO WE CAN TRUST.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: CAROL LAW, GASCOMY ROAD,
LEUCADIA.
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MS. LAW: GOOD AFTERNOON, GENTLEMEN. MY NAME
IS CAROL LAW, 1601 GASCONY ROAD, LEUCAD1A.
WE HAVE ALL HEARD ABOUT THE GLOWING ACCOUNTS OF
SDGSE AND PACIFIC RESOURCES, INCORPORATED, REGARDING THE
BENEFITS TO US AND OUR AIR QUALITY IF THIS REFINERY WERE TO
BE BUILT. WHAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD ARE THE COLD, HARD
POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC FACTS, A FEW OF WHICH 1 WILL ENUMERATE
AS FOLLOWS:
1. IN THE 1960'S, CONSIDERABLE GOVERNMENT
HEADWAY WAS MADE IN CLEANING UP THE ENVIRONMENT AFTER A
GREAT DEAL OF CLAMORING FROM CITIZENS. UNDER OUR LAST TWO
PRESIDENTS, HOWEVER, WE HAVE SEEN A REVERSAL OF SOME OF THOSE
EARLIER ACHIEVEMENTS. TO SAY THAT ANT I-POLLUTI ON LEGISLATION
STILL ON THE BOOKS, ALBEIT WEAKENED, WILL EVEN BE ON THE BOOKS
NEXT YEAR OR FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, GIVEN THE CAPR1C1OUSNESS OF
OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM, IS SIMPLY NOT DEALING WITH THE REALITIES
OF OUR WORLD.
BIG BUSINESS, INCLUDING THE OIL INDUSTRY,
ESPECIALLY THE OIL INDUSTRY, IS CHIPPING AWAY AT THE SYSTEM
TO BRING US BACK TO A PRE 'GO'S ENVIRONMENTAL LEGISLATION.
SUCH RELATIVELY LOW-LEVEL POLLUTANTS AS MIGHT BE LEGALLY
EMITTED BY TODAY'S WEAKENED LAWS MIGHT INSTEAD BE LEGALLY
HIGHLY POLLUTANT ALLOWABLE EMISSIONS BY THE TIME THIS
REFINERY IS EVEN BUILT. THESE ARE THE POLITICS WE MUST LIVE
WITH.
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1 2. LITTLE OF THE FUEL PRESENTLY MANUFACTURED
2 BY SDGSE AT ENC1NA IS USED IN THIS IMMEDIATE AREA, AS WAS
3 POINTED OUT IN THE TOUR THAT I TOOK RECENTLY THROUGH THAT
4 FACILITY. FREE-FLOWING FUEL TRANSFER IS COMMON. THAT THIS
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REFINERY IS GOING TO HELP CLEAN UP SAN DIEGO'S AIR COULD BE
PURE SPECULATION AND PROPAGANDIZING ON THE PART OF THE
PROPONENTS.
3. THE PROPONENTS STATE THAT THERE ARE NUMEROUS
FACTORS WHICH MAKE CARLSBAD SUCH AN ATTRACTIVE COMMUNITY
FOR AN OIL REFINERY, ALL WELL KNOWN TO YOU. HOWEVER, THERE
ARE A FEW FACTS THAT PROPONENTS HAVE NEGLECTED TO DEAL WITH.
REFINERIES ARE NOT MAJESTIC EDIFICES STANDING ALONE AND REGAL
AS SOME ROMAN PALACE. INSTEAD, THEY GO WITH OTHER FACTORIES.
THEY LIKE OTHER OIL REFINERIES FOR COMPANY. IN OTHER AREAS
HUNDREDS AND EVEN THOUSANDS OF ACRES OF HIGHLY POLLUTANT
INDUSTRIAL PARKS SURROUND OIL REFINERIES.
WE HAVE THE PROMISES OF SDG£E THAT THE ADJACENT
400 ACRES--I HAVE HEARD ALL KINDS OF NUMBERS--INDUSTR1AL PARK
IS NO PROBLEM AT ALL. BASED ON HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, 1 CHOOSE
TO LOOK ON SUCH PROMISES VERY SKEPTICALLY. MORALLY AND
PRACTICALLY, THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MUST
CONSIDER THE ACCOMPANYING INDUSTRIAL PARK IN FUTURE LAND
COMMITMENTS SUCH A REFINERY WILL BRING ABOUT IN ORDER TO
ADEQUATELY PROTECT THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE AND
TO COMPLY WITH THE VERY INTENT OF THAT AGENCY'S EXISTENCE.
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4. AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, CARLSBAD ALLEGEDLY
IS AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE FOR ONE OIL REFINERY AND ACCOMPANYING
INDUSTRIAL PARK. OR SO THE OIL LOBBY HAS CONVINCED SOME.
SUPPOSING THAT THIS IS TRUE, THEN DOES IT NOT FOLLOW THAT
NORTHERN SAN DIEGO COUNTY IS ALSO AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE TO
BUILD TWO, FIVE, TEN, OR EVEN MORE OIL REFINERIES AND
CONCOMITANT INDUSTRIAL PARKS?
IN THIS NATION OF PLENTY AND MIMICRY, WE NEVER
STOP AT ONE OF ANYTHING, EXCEPT MAYBE A GOOD POLITICIAN OR
A GOOD LAW. GRANTED, THERE IS SOME SLIGHT PROBLEM GETTING
REFINERIES BUILT TODAY. BY 1980, THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE,
GIVEN THE STRENGTH AND POLITICAL PRESSURES OF OUR OIL
LOBBYISTS. A BEAUTIFUL RECREATIONAL, RESIDENTIAL, AND
AGRICULTURAL COASTAL AREA, AN AREA WITH VITAL RESOURCES
TO BE PRESERVED IN PERPETUITY MAY BE OPENED UP TO HIGHLY
INDUSTRIALIZED USE. ONE OIL REFINERY IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE
UNLESS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY CHOOSES TO GO
AGAINST THE INTENT OF ITS MANDATE.
YOU MUST AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM DELAY A
RECOMMENDATION ON THIS VITAL ISSUE, AS YOU HAVE BEEN
REQUESTED TO DO BY THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL
DISTRICT. I WELL -REALIZE THE HASTE WITH WHICH THE PROPONENTS
WOULD HAVE YOU ACT, AND THEIR MOTIVATIONS. I BELIEVE WE
HAVE' HERE A CLASSIC CASE OF THE DOMINO THEORY OF OIL REFINERIE
IF ONE REFINERY IS BUILT, THERE FOLLOWS THE CREATION OF LIKE
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FACILITY AFTER LIKE FACILITY, EACH MORE POLLUTING THAN THE
OTHER, IF HISTORY CONTINUES ITS PRESENT COURSE, UNTIL NORTH
SAN DIEGO COUNTY AIR IS TO THE NOXIOUS LEVELS THAT HAVE BEEN
PREDICTED ARE POSSIBLE BY YOUR VERY OWN EXPERTS. BY YOUR YES
RECOMMENDATION ON THIS REFINERY, A REAL BOOST TO ITS
ULTIMATE PASSAGE, YOU COULD BE HELPING SAN DIEGO BECOME THE
PRE-'40'S PITTSBURGH OF THE WEST, WHICH YOUR- SCIENT1STS
BELIEVE IS POSSIBLE, GIVEN OUR PECULIAR TOPOGRAPHY.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE A COPY OF MRS. LAW'S
REMARKS. THEY'RE IN TWO PAGES, AS EDITED, AND THEN THERE'S
AN ATTACHMENT, INFORMATION RECEIVED FROM DR. BFRGER, MARINE
BIOLOGIST, WHICH IS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION. THE THREE
PAGES WE WILL MARK AS EXHIBIT 34.
DUANA WANKET, CAUDOR STREET, LEUCADIA, REPRE-
SENTING LEUCADIA ALLIANCE.
MS. WANKET: YES, MY NAME IS DUANA WANKET, AND
1 LIVE AT 17^1 CAUDOR STREET IN LEUCADIA. I'M PRESIDENT
OF THE LEUCADIA ALLIANCE. THAT IS A GROUP OF SEVERAL
HUNDRED HOMEOWNERS IN LEUCADIA WHICH IS, OF COURSE, SITUATED
DIRECTLY SOUTH OF CARLSBAD.
OUR AREA IS CONSIDERED THE FLOWER CAPITAL OF
THE WORLD AND, INDEED, AGRICULTURE AND FLOWER GROWING ARE
24 | A MULT 1-Ml LL1ON DOLLAR INDUSTRY THERE. THIS INDUSTRY, WHICH
EMPLOYS HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, IS SIMPLY NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE
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1 PROPOSED REFINERY AND THE ALLIED INDUSTRIES WHICH SEEM TO BE
2 INEVITABLE. IT SEEMS TO BE POOR ECONOMICS, TO SAY THE
3 LEAST, TO ENDANGER AN ALREADY ESTABLISHED PROFITABLE AND
4 BEAUTIFUL INDUSTRY BY INSTALLING THIS REFINERY IN UNS01LED
5 TERRITORY WHEN THE ABSOLUTE NEED FOR THE FACILITY IS NOT
6 ESTABLISHED. WHEN WE'RE GIVEN CONFLICTING REPORTS BY
7 AUTHORITIES AND ARE TOLD THAT THE BEST ESTIMATES ARE ONLY
8 CRYSTAL-BALL PREDICTIONS, WE CANNOT HELP BUT FEEL ANGERED
9 AND FRUSTRATED.
10 -THE ADDITIONAL DAMAGE TO OUR TOURIST INDUSTRY
11 WILL CERTAINLY OFFSET A GREAT DEAL OF ANY PROJECTED PROFIT.
12 AND WHEN, AS WE HAVE BEEN TOLD, THE REFINERY MAY BE PHASED
13 OUT WITHIN A. DECADE BECAUSE OF OIL AVAILABILITY, WHAT WILL
14 WE HAVE LEFT? CERTAINLY NOT THE BEAUTIFUL COAST WE
15 PRESENTLY HAVE, NOT THE RURAL ATMOSPHERE THAT LITERALLY
16 THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PRESERVE.
17 WHY NOT INVEST SOME OF THOSE MILLIONS IN A
18 PERMANENT ESTABLISHMENT OF CLEAN SOLAR ENERGY. FOR INSTANCE,
19 A SEA SOLAR SOURCE, WHICH IS PRESENTLY AVAILABLE THROUGH
20 LOCKHEED. AND I HAVE READ A PIECE FROM THE PAPER WHICH
21 SAYS THAT THE GULF STREAM ALONE HAS THE POWER-GENERATING
22 CAPACITY FAR IN EXCESS OF ALL HUMANITIES' NEEDS THROUGH THE
23 YEAR 2000. I WON'T GO INTO ANY DETAIL ON THAT. BUT IT'S
24 CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY IN THIS AREA. PARTICULARLY BECAUSE
25 OF THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF NATURAL SUNSHINE THA^ SAN DIEGO
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COUNTY GETS. 1 DON'T BELIEVE THIS ASPECT OF NEED HAS BEEN
DEALT WITH SUFFICIENTLY IN THE REPORTS.
MAY I SAY, TOO, THAT MY FAMILY IS IN CONSTRUCTION
AND KNOWS FIRSTHAND WHAT PRESENT PROBLEMS THERE ARE IN THE
INDUSTRY, BUT NONE OF US IS WILLING TO SELL BREATHING SPACE
IN RETURN FOR A FEW SHORT-TERM WORKING DOLLARS. HISTORICALLY,
LARGE CONSTRUCTION IS BROUGHT IN FROM OUTSIDE THE COUNTY.
LOCAL FIRMS ALMOST NEVER GET LOCAL DOLLARS OF THIS MAGNITUDE.
TO SUM IT UP, THE LEUCADIA ALLIANCE SEES NO
BENEFIT AND MUCH IRREPARABLE HARM BY THE CONSTRUCTION OF
THIS REFINERY.
1 THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 HAVE A CARD HERE FROM MR.
MICHAEL MILLER OF CARLSBAD, WHO SAYS HE HAS A QUESTION.
WE'LL PLACE THIS WITH THE OTHER QUESTIONS TO BE DEALT WITH
DURING THE OFF-THE-RECORD COMMENT PERIOD, IF YOU WISH.
CLARENCE H. DAWSON.
TELL US WHERE YOU ARE FROM, MR. DAWSON.
MR. DAWSON: CLARENCE H. DAWSON. 1 RESIDE ON
RANCHO AGUA HEDIONDA Y LOS MONOS. I RESIDE JUST AT THE
EASTERLY BOUNDARY, WHERE THE CREEK CROSSES THAT BOUNDARY.
I HAVE BEEN FAMILIAR WITH THIS AREA FOR OVER 40
YEARS. I HAVE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE WITH THE POWER COMPANY.
1 KNOW THAT THEIR RECORD ON CONSERVATION IS POOR, THAT THEY
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ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH CONSERVATION OF NATURAL RESOURCES OR
THE ENVIRONMENT. IN OUR PARTICULAR RANCH THEY HAVE CAUSED
EROSION, AND THEY'RE GENERALLY A NUISANCE TO US. (LAUGHTER)
I HAVE OBSERVED THE ATMOSPHERE AROUND OIL
REFINERIES ON THE SOUTH SHORE OF PUERTO RICO, AND ALSO OFF
OF RICHMOND IN SAN FRANCISCO BAY. I ESTIMATE AT LEAST SEVEN
MILES ALONG THE SHORE EACH WAY FROM THE REFINERY YOU CAN
SMELL THE EFFECTS OF THE PRODUCTS FROM THE REFINERY. I'M
SURE THAT WILL BE THE EXPERIENCE HERE IF THIS REFINERY IS
BUILT. IT WILL CERTAINLY EXTEND DOWN BELOW LEUCADIA, AND
POSSIBLY NOT AS FAR AS SAN CLEMENTE. BUT IT WILL EXTEND NOT
ONLY NORTH BUT SOUTH ALONG THE SHORE. IT WILL EXTEND
EASTWARD FOR A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE.
AS 1 SAY, 1 HAVE LIVED IN THIS AREA AND KNOW IT
FOR OVER 40 YEARS, AND I KNOW THAT THIS TIME OF YEAR, IN
LATE SUMMER, IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO EXPERIENCE THE FUMES FROM
OIL REFINERIES WHICH COME DOWN OVER THE OCEAN OFFSHORE FROM
LONG BEACH AND REACH OFFSHORE BREEZES HERE AND COME IN AT
LEAST AS FAR AS WHERE I LIVE, WHICH IS FOUR OR FIVE MILES
INWARD. I EXPECT THAT ANY REFINERY BUILT IN THIS VICINITY
WOULD DO THE SAME THING.
ONE THING THAT 1 HAD NOT OBSERVED IN THE
NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS OF THE POWER COMPANY'S STATEMENTS ABOUT
HOW FINE THIS THING WOULD BE, WOULD BE ANY CONCERN OR
STATEMENT ABOUT THE EFFECT ON THE DOWNWIND AREAS. I KNOW
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1 THAT THE PREVAILING WINDS ARE GENERALLY FROM THE OCEAN, FROM
2 THE WEST TO THE EAST, AND 1 THINK THAT THE POWER COMPANY
3 SHOULD BE CONCERNED, AS THEY ARE NOT, ABOUT THE PEOPLE
4 LIVING AT LAKE SAN MARCOS AND AS -FAR AWAY AS ESCONDIDO.
5 THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING IN THE NEWSPAPERS THAT 1 HAVE READ--
6 AND I READ THE DAILY OCEANSIDE PAPER EVERY DAY--ABOUT THE
7 POWER COMPANY HAVING ANY CONCERN WHATSOEVER ABOUT THE AREAS
8 1 JUST MENTIONED. I DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE ANY.
9 NOTHING HAS BEEN SAID PUBLICLY ABOUT THE EFFECT
10 ON THE FLORA AND FAUNA IN THIS AREA. MY WIFE TELLS ME SHE
11 HAS OBSERVED IN VARIOUS PLACES ON OUR RANCH SOME OF OUR OAK
12 TREES HAVE ALREADY BEEN AFFECTED AND TURNED BROWN BY THE
13 ATMOSPHERE, THE CHANGE OF ATMOSPHERE IN RECENT YEARS. I AM
14 CONCERNED ABOUT THE FLORA AND FAUNA BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF
15 OUR RANCH AND THE LAND WHICH WE GAVE TO THE UNIVERSITY OF
16 CALIFORNIA FOR AN ECOLOGICAL PRESERVE IN LOS MONOS CANYON.
17 1 DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED. AT LEAST 1 DON'T
18 SEE ANY OF THEIR REPRESENTATIVES HERE AT THIS MEETING. THEY
19 ARE GREATLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE EFFLUENT FROM AN OIL
20 REFINERY WOULD DO TO THE WILD ANIMAL LIFE AND THE FLOWERS
21 AND OTHER PLANTS GROWING IN LOS MONOS CANYON.
22 I'M TRYING TO WATCH TWO DIFFERENT NOTES AT THE
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SAME TIME, AND I'M NOT MAKING THE BEST OF IT.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU'RE DOING VERY WELL.
MR. DAWSON: WELL, THANK YOU.
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1 I HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING SOME EXPRESS IONS -OF
2 THE LABOR UNION ATTITUDE. THEY'RE ALL FOR A REFINERY
3 REGARDLESS OF WHERE IT IS OR WHAT IT DOES BECAUSE IT WOULD
4 PRODUCE, THEY THINK AND SAY, MORE JOBS. WELL, WE'RE ALL FOR
5 MORE JOBS, PARTICULARLY AT A TIME WHEN THE CURRENT DEPRESSION
6 IS ON US, BUT I REMEMBER THAT THE LABOR INTERESTS CAME OUT
7 TO ONE MEETING I ATTENDED AT MY CHURCH AND SUPPORTED THE
8 VIET NAM WAR BECAUSE IT PRODUCED MORE JOBS, WHICH IT DID,
9 EXCEPT FOR THE 55,000 WHO DIED THERE. I'M ALL FOR LABOR
10 UNIONS. 1 WORKED FOR SCALE MYSELF AT ONE TIME, BUT I'M NOT
11 IN FAVOR OF BUILDING A REFINERY JUST TO PRODUCE JOBS WHICH
12 WILL ALTER THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH MOST OF US LIVE EXCEPT
13 SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO URGED US THIS MORNING. SO, I URGE
14 THIS BOARD TO GO EASY. DON'T MAKE ANY QUICK DECISIONS. GET
15 THE REACTION OF THE PEOPLE AT LAKE SAN MARCOS AND BUENA AND
16 SAN MARCOS AND ESCOND1DO. FIND OUT WHAT THEY THINK. DOUBLE
17 CHECK ANY INFORMATION THAT COMES FROM THE POWER COMPANY, AND
18 PARTICULARLY THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS. I HAVE HAD
19 SOME EXPERIENCE IN READING THESE RECENTLY, AND MY OBSERVATION
20 ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS HAS BEEN THAT THEY REFLECT
21 THE VIEWS OF THE SCHEMERS AND SOMETHING THEY WANT TO PROJECT.
22 THERE'S AN OLD SAYING: WHO PAYS THE PIPER CALLS THE TUNE.
23 AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WITH ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS.
24 WHEN THE POWER COMPANY PAYS FOR ONE, THE REPORT REFLECTS
25 THEIR VIEWS. SO, LOOK OUT.
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1 SO, I ASK THIS BOARD -- IN FACT, ANYONE CONCERNED
2 WITH THIS PROBLEM TO LOOK ASKANCE AT ANYTHING THAT IS
3 PRESENTED FROM THE POWER COMPANY OR FROM AGENTS THAT THEY
4 HIRE. I'M FRANK TO SAY THAT 1 BELIEVE THAT IF THIS ACTION,
5 IF THIS MATTER, WAS LEFT TO A VOTE OF THE PEOPLE AFFECTED,
6 NOT JUST THIS AREA RIGHT AROUND DOWNTOWN CARLSBAD, BUT THE
7 PEOPLE TO THE EAST AS FAR AS ESCONDIDO, I THINK IF THEY
8 WERE POLLED AND THERE WAS A VOTE, IT WOULD BE DEFEATED. SO,
9 I ASK YOU, LASTLY, AGAIN, GO EASY.
10 THANK YOU.
I] (APPLAUSE)
12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE HAD STATED THAT WE WOULD
13 HAVE AN OFF-THE-RECORD SESSION IN ORDER TO ANSWER QUEST IONS.
14 I HAVE 11 CARDS LEFT, BUT IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE THIS WOULD BE
15 A GOOD HOUR TO TAKE AM OFF-THE-RECORD SESSION SO THAT IT
16 WILL NOT BE UNREASONABLY FORESHORTENED AND, THEREFORE, THE
17 REMAINING PEOPLE, WHO HAVE PUT CARDS IN WILL BE ASKED TO
18 COME BACK THIS EVENING. WE WILL BE HERE AT 7:30.
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SO, WITH THAT, WE WILL NOW STAND AT RECESS
UNTIL 7:30.
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1 SATURDAY EVENING SESSION
2 AUGUST 23, 1975, 7:30 P.M.
g _
4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL GO BACK ON THE RECORD.
5 THIS IS THE EVENING SESSION CALLED BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL
6 PROTECTION AGENCY. WE HAD A RATHER LONG OUTLINE OF WHAT
7 THE HEARING WAS ALL ABOUT THIS MORNING. I.TOOK QUITE A LITTLE
8 TIME TO DO THAT. UNLESS THERE IS SOME NEED TO REPEAT, WE
9 DON'T NEED TO DO THAT TONIGHT. THEY LOOK TO ME LIKE ALL
10 FAMILIAR FACES.
11 SOME LITTLE HOUSEKEEPING HERE. ONE OF THE
12 PEOPLE WHO HAD REGISTERED TO SPEAK STATED SHE WAS NOT ABLE
13 TO COME THIS EVENING, AND LEFT A DOCUMENT SHE WANTED PUT
14 INTO THE RECORD, SO I HAVE HERE A DOCUMENT CALLED "SIMULATION
15 IN THE SERVICE OF SOCIETY" THAT WAS SUBMITTED BY' IRIS SANKEY
16 OF THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY ENERGY ELEMENT. THIS WILL BE
17 EXHIB IT NO. 35.
18 , MR. REHBERG SPOKE THIS MORNING, AND I HAVE HERE
19 A COPY OF HIS REMARKS, WHICH WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 36. HE
20 HAD SOME CHARTS ON THE V1EWGRAPH. ONE OF THEM CALLED "MOST
21 LIKELY CASE, ALASKAN CRUDE SURPLUS IN WEST COAST DISTRICT 5."
22 THE NFXT IS A SHEET ENTITLED "DEMAND FOR REFINED PRODUCT AND
23 CAPACITY TO PROCESS IN DISTRICT 5." THE NEXT SHEET IS
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DEMAND AND CAPACITY ADDITIONS UNDER CONSTRUCTION." ALL THREE
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SHEETS WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 37.
WE HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FROM MRS. WENRICK OF
COMMON CAUSE, AND SHE WANTS HER QUESTIONS READ INTO THE
RECORD. 1 WILL DO THIS. THE FIRST QUESTION:
"WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM EFFECT OF REFINERY
EMISSION ON PERSONS WITH RESPIRATORY DISEASE AND THOSE
ENGAGED IN VIGOROUS PHYSICAL ACTIVITIES (HIGH SCHOOL
ATHLETICS, ET CETERA)?'1
"WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF THE POLLUTION ON PLANTS
AND AGRICULTURE IN GENERAL?"
THESE QUESTIONS WILL BE MADE A PART OF THE RECORD
THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION OF SOME OF THE
QUESTIONS EARLIER THIS AFTERNOON. THAT IS THE REASON WE
RECESSED AT 4:30, WHICH 15 EARLIER THAN CUSTOMARY. I APOLO-
GIZE TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INCONVENIENCED BY THE EARLY
RECESS AND HAVE HAD TO COME BACK TONIGHT, BUT WE DID THINK
,T APPROPRIATE TO HAVE SOME OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION FOR
THE PEOPLE WHO HAD SUBMITTED QUESTIONS.
NOW, THE NEXT CARD 1 HAVE IS MR. JOEL PRESCOTT,
WHO.IS HERE THIS EVENING. HE WAS HERE THIS MORNING BUT WAS
UNABLE TO ADDRESS US.
22 ! MR. PRESCOTT: GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS JOEL
23 I PRESCOTT. I'M A REAL ESTATE BROKER. I'M A RESIDENT OF
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24 CARLSBAD, 5431 LOS ROBLES DRIVE. I'M IN THE TERRAMAR AREA,
25 WHICH IS JUST TO THE WEST OF WHERE THE REFINERY IS TO BE BU1L"
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I'M ALSO A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. 1 DON'T KNOW WHETHER
I'M IN GOOD STANDING OR NOT, OR.WILL BE WHEN. I'M THROUGH
SAYING WHAT I GOT TO SAY. I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF HAVING
THE REFINERY BUILT.
I HAVE MANY REASONS FOR FEELING THIS WAY.
LISTING THE REASONS NOT NECESSARILY IN THE ORDER OF THEIR
WEIGHT IN MY MIND, BUT AS THEY COME TO ME. I DON'T THINK
THERE WILL BE ANY DETRIMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS OF THE
REFINERY AT ALL. THE ECONOMIC CONSIDERATIONS OF HAVING THE
REFINERY IN THE AREA 1 THINK FAR OUTWEIGH ANY POSSIBLE
DETRIMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION. THE JOBS THAT WILL BE
CREATED NOT ONLY IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE REFINERY; BUT
ONCE IT'S UP, THE PERMANENT JOBS 1 THINK WILL BE A BENEFIT.
THE INCREASED TAX BASE AND THE INDUSTRY THAT WILL BE PULLED
IN TO THE JAPATUL INDUSTRIAL PARK AND THE OTHER INDUSTRIAL
PARKS IN THE AREA I THINK WILL BE OF IMMEASURABLE BENEFIT
TO CARLSBAD AND THE NORTH COUNTY.
1 THINK THAT IF THE APPLICATION FOR THE REFINERY
IS DENIED, IT WOULD BE ANOTHER OF MANY INFRINGEMENTS ON
PERSONAL PROPERTY RIGHTS WHICH I THINK THERE ARE FAR TOO
MANY GOING ON AS IT IS.
22 LASTLY, I AM A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. I HAVE
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23 ! OBSERVED THEM. I JOINED THEM PRIMARILY BECAUSE ] FELT THEY
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WERE COMPLETELY OFF BASE, AND I WANTED TO WATCH WHAT THEY
WERE DOING. IT'S MY OBSERVATION THAT THEY ARE GUIDED BY
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1 EMOTIONALISM RATHER THAN FACTS, AND THEY HAVE THE ATTITUDE,
2 "MY MIND IS MADE UP; DON'T CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS."
3 (APPLAUSE)
4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. PRESCOTT.
5 I HAVE A-CARD FOR A BARBARA TICE WILLIAMS AT
6 MIRA SAL, VISTA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING HERSELF.
7 BARBARA TICE WILLIAMS?
8 LOU PRITTEN OF RIDGEMOOR DRIVE, CARSLBAD.
9 LOU PRITTEN?
10 THOSE WHOSE NAMES I PASSED OVER WILL BE CALLED
11 AGAIN.
12 MR. PRITTEN?
13 MR. PRITTEN: GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS LOU
14 PRITTEN. I LIVE AT 330 CHINQUAPIN IN CARLSBAD.
15 1 WOULD LIKE TO STATE THE REASON I HAVE BEEN
16 FIGHTING POLLUTION HERE IN CARLSBAD. I HAVE LIVED IN
17 CALIFORNIA ALL MY LIFE. 1 CAN WELL REMEMBER WHEN THERE
18 WASN'T SUCH A THING THEY CALLED SMOG OR AIR POLLUTION. IN
19 1950 I MOVED INTO LOS ANGELES, AND I WATCHED THE AIR
20 POLLUTION GET WORSE EACH DAY. MY CHILDREN GOT SO THEY
21 COULDN'T GO OUT ON THE PLAYGROUND DURING THE SMOG ATTACK.
22 IT'S SO BAD NOW I CAN'T RIDE MY BICYCLE TO WORK, WHICH 1
23 THOUGHT WAS GOOD FOR THE ECOLOGY. BUT THE SMOG IS SO HEAVY,
24 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO EXERT YOURSELF. STAY INDOORS AND
25 NOT BREATHE.
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ANYHOW, I HAD A SERIOUS ILLNESS IN THE FAMILY,
WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE CAUSED BY POLLUTION. THERE IS SOME
INDICATION THERE IS. AND WITH MY WIFE'S BRONCHITIS NOT
CLEARING UP AND MY CHILDREN NOT BEING ALLOWED TO PLAY ON
THE PLAYGROUND, I MOVED TO CARLSBAD. I SHOULD SAY THEY
MOVED TO CARLSBAD. I STILL COMMUTE TO LOS ANGELES. BUT I
WOULD RATHER HAVE MY FAMILY HERE AT LEAST WITH AN ENVIRONMENT
THAT 1 HAD WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THAT IS SOMEWHAT HEALTHY
THAN LIVING IN LOS ANGELES AND BE SUBJECT TO ALL THE POLLU-
TION THAT GOES ON DAILY THERE.
1 WILL SAY I AM A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT THIS
MEETING TODAY. IN FACT, I AM DEEPLY WORRIED ABOUT IT
BECAUSE YOU HAVE COME OUT WITH A TENTATIVE APPROVAL. NOW,
READING THIS DOCUMENT HERE, I JUST CAN'T FATHOM HOW YOU CAN
GET AN APPROVAL OUT OF THIS DOCUMENT HERE. YOU HAVE AIR
POLLUTION INCREASING -- WHAT IS IT? 26,000 POUNDS A DAY
FROM THE REFINERY AND YET'S IT'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE A REDUCED
EMISSIONS IN THE BASIN. ACTUALLY, IT WON'T BE REDUCED
EMISSIONS IN THE BASIN. YOU'RE HOPING TO BREAK EVEN IF THE
WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO HAPPENS.
NOW, EVEN SUCH A RIGHT-WING MAGAZINE AS READERS'
DIGEST CAME OUT LAST WEEK AND REPORTED THEY HAD GRAVE DOUBTS
23 'ABOUT THE NATURAL GAS SUPPLY IN THIS COUNTRY. THEY CITED
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REPORTS WHERE THE NATURAL GAS RESERVES WERE UNDERESTIMATED
BY A THOUSAND PERCENT. NOW, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE HAS BEEN
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NO CLEAR-CUT ANALYSIS OF THE NATURAL GAS RESERVES IN THIS
COUNTRY. YET, THIS IFFY SCENARIO SAYS WE WON'T HAVE ANY
NATURAL GAS SO, CONSEQUENTLY, WE WILL MAKE NATURAL GAS AT
MACARIO AND THAT WILL REDUCE POLLUTION. MAYBE.
BUT IF YOU WANT TO BE IFFY ABOUT IT, YOU CAN
HAVE ALL KINDS OF IFFYS. YOU CAN HAVE AN IFFY: IF THAT
LARGE TANKER HITS THE JETTY OUT HERE AT ENCINA AND CATCHES .
FIRE, THIS IS GOING TO CAUSE A LOT OF POLLUTION. YOU CAN
HAVE AN IFFY: IF AN AIRPLANE HITS ONE OF THEM SYNTHETIC
GAS TANKS OUT AT THE REFINERY, YOU'D HAVE AN AWFUL LOT OF
POLLUTION. YOU'D PROBABLY LOSE RANCHO CARLSBAD. I MEAN,
IFFYS CAN GO ALL THE WAY ALONG THE LINE. WE CAN IFFY ALL
NIGHT, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BASIS TO DECLARE THAT
THIS PASSES THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY.
NOW, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE TESTIFY HERE
TODAY, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT STUCK THEIR NECK OUT BY
TESTIFYING. 1 WANT TO COMMEND MR. SOMMERVILLE FOR THE
TESTIMONY HE MADE. IT'S REFRESHING TO HEAR A PUBLIC EMPLOYEE
STICKING HIS NECK OUT. I JUST HOPE THIS AGENCY WILL'BUCK
THE PRESSURES. AND I KNOW THERE ARE MANY PRESSURES. WE HAVE
HAD STANDARD OIL OF CALIFORNIA LOBBYING IN CARLSBAD, WE HAVE
HAD ALL KINDS OF OUTSIDE PRESSURES. THIS ISN'T JUST A LITTLE
REFINERY FOR THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS
INTERESTED TO SEE IT BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS A REFINERY, AND
THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THIS GOES IN, BUCK THE TREND WHERE
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REFINERIES HAVE BEEN TURNED DOWN IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.
I DON'T KNOW. THIS REPORT HERE, THE BASIS OF
THE APPROVAL ON THIS REPORT, SEEMED TO ME A HIGH SCHOOL
STUDENT WHO COULDN'T SEE THROUGH THIS SHOULDN'T GRADUATE.
I WANT TO SAY ONE OTHER THING HERE ABOUT SAN
DIEGO GAS B ELECTRIC. MR. LAFFOON MADE A CRITICISM THAT
THEY HAVE BEEN PICKED ON AND THEY HAVE BEEN MISREPRESENTED
AND EVERYBODY IS PICKING ON THEM. AND THEN HE MAKES THREE
MISSTATEMENTS IN HIS TESTIMONY. ONE, THAT SAN DIEGO GAS £
ELECTRIC IS A BENEVOLENT ORGANIZATION, SOCIAL-MINDED AND SO
FORTH. MY CONTENTION IS SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC IS IN
BUSINESS TO MAKE A PROFIT FIRST, AND SOCIAL HAS NOTHING TO
DO WITH IT. THEY ARE IN BUSINESS TO MAKE A PROFIT.
SECONDLY, HE STATED THERE ARE NO OTHER ENERGY
SOURCES IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. IF THAT WAS TRUE, WE WOULD
ALL BE DEAD, OBVIOUSLY. WE HAVE THE SUN, WE HAVE THE WIND,
WE HAVE INNUMERABLE OTHER ENERGY SOURCES BESIDES OIL.
WE TALK ABOUT OIL. THERE IS A BIG LIE GOING ON
IN THIS WHOLE THING, AND IT'S A HUGE LIE, AND WE HEAR IT
OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN: "WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A CLEAN
FUEL. WE ARE GOING TO MAKE LOW-SULPHUR OIL. THAT'S GOING
TO BE A CLEAN FUEL." THAT IS MOT A CLEAN FUEL. THAT IS A
23 ! FILTHY, DIRTY FUEL. LOW-SULPHUR OIL IS A DIRTY FUEL. YOU
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REMOVED ONE OF THE INGREDIENTS. YOU REMOVED THE SULPHUR.
BUT IT'S A FILTHY FUEL. NOW, TO SAY THIS IS A CLEAN FUEL IS
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SAME OILY POLLUTION.
2 1 WENT TO THE PUBLIC HEARING WHEN SDGSE WAS
3 REQUESTING PERMISSION FOR THE FOURTH UNIT AT THEIR ENCINA
PLANT, AND I WAS THE ONLY ONE PROTESTING POLLUTION AT THAT.
5 POINT. THIS WAS A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO. SO, THE FIGHT THAT
6 MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE BEEN PUTTING UP AGAINST POLLUTION IN
THIS AREA GOES BACK A NUMBER OF YEARS.
8 UNDER OATH I GAVE EVIDENCE OF THIS POLLUTION
9 AND BROUGHT SAMPLES OF IT ON PAPER TOWELING THAT I HAD TO
10 USE TWICE A DAY TO GET THE GUCK OUT SO IT WOULDN'T GO BACK
11 INTO THE FILTER SYSTEM. ALTHOUGH THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC
12 UTILITIES COMMISSION THAT WAS HAVING THE PUBLIC HEARING
13 ORDERED AN INVESTIGATION, AS FAR AS I KNOW, NOTHING WAS DONE.
14 AND WE DON'T KNOW TO THIS DAY WHERE THAT POLLUTION COMES FROM.
15 A SWIMMING POOL IS NOT IMPORTANT EXCEPT AS IT
]
16 DRAMATICALLY REVEALS THE OVERALL POLLUTION. A POOL CAN BE
17 CLEANED, AND I HOPE THERE IS NO BUILDUP IN THE PIPES WHICH
18 WOULD BE VERY SERIOUS AND VERY COSTLY TO ALL POOL OWNERS.
19 PEOPLE CAN WASH THEIR HAIR AND THEIR CLOTHES AND, AS A
20 NEIGHBOR SAID, YOU CAN WASH YOUR HOUSE WITH A DETERGENT
21 BEFORE REPAINTING, WHICH HE SAID HE HAD TO DO TO GET OFF AN
22 OIL SCUM. HOWEVER, STUDIES HAVE ALREADY SHOWN THAT THE
23 POLLUTION HAS.DAMAGED THE FLOWERS IN THIS AREA, ACCORDING
24 TO MAYOR FRAZEE, IN A RECENT SPEECH QUOTED IN THE BLADE
25 TRIBUNE. AND WHAT ONE BREATHES, AS FAR AS I KNOW, IS STILL
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UNKNOWN AND I SUPPOSE COULD BE VERY SERIOUS IN TIME.
PEOPLE MUST TRUST SOMEONE TO HELP THEM, AND THAT
IS WHY I'M HERE TONIGHT. THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MRS. BROWNLEY.
WILL YOU LEAVE A COPY OF YOUR REMARKS FOR OUR
RECORD?
MRS. BROWNLEY: YES. THEY'RE ONLY IN PENCIL,
BUT THERE THEY ARE.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: A COPY OF MRS. BROWNLEY's
REMARKS WILL, FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS HEARING, BE MARKED
EXHIBIT 38.
GENE JACKSON?
MR. JACKSON: MY NAME is GENE JACKSON, i LIVE
AT 1120 CHINQUAPIN IN CARLSBAD, AND I AM GOING TO SPEAK AS
A PRIVATE CITIZEN.
MR. LAFFOON AND MR. BEAN RAISED SEVERAL POINTS
18 ' IN THEIR PRESENTATION TODAY WHICH REQUIRE COMMENT. REFERENCE
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BY MR. BEAN TO CARLSBAD AS A UNIQUE TANKER PORT. ALSO,
REFERRED EUPHEMISTICALLY BY MR. LAFFOON AS AN OFFLOADING
TERMINAL. THE FACILITY WAS FIRST INDEED AN OFFLOADING
FACILITY, BUT IN THE RECENT PAST IT HAS BECOME AN OIL PORT
23 ! FOR ALL OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY, CONTRIBUTING TO AIR POLLUTION
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THROUGH BARGE VENTING, REFERRED TO BY MR. GRAY IN HIS
PRESENTATION IN THE AFTERNOON HEARING. AND HOW THIS CONDITION
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AROSE IS INTERESTING AND, I BELIEVE, RELEVANT TO THIS HEARING.
WHEN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD PASSED THE ORDINANCE
APPROVING CONSTRUCTION OF ENCINA 5, THERE WERE TWO RELATIVELY
SMALL FUEL TANKS INCLUDED IN THE PROJECT. THE TANKS
GRANDFATHERED OUT OF THE ENCINA PROJECT FROM THE COASTAL
COMMISSION AS ONE 450,000-BARREL STORAGE TANK AND HIGH-SPEED
PUMP STATION. THIS, WHEN COMPLETED, WILL PERMIT OFFLOADING
STORAGE AND FILLING OF STORAGE TANKS FOR TRANSMISSION OF
FUEL TO THE SOUTH BAY GENERATING FACILITY. THIS IS BECOMING
NECESSARY BECAUSE TANKERS OF THE SIZE PRESENTLY BEING USED,
AS INDICATED BY MR. BEAN TODAY, ARE TOO LARGE TO BE
ACCOMMODATED BY THE 24TH STREET LANDING IN S'AN DIEGO HARBOR.
THE TANK APPROVED AND UNDER CONSTRUCTION BY SDGCF WILL BE
A MAJOR AIR-POLLUTING SOURCE ITSELF.
THE BARGE VENTING REFERRED TO BY MR. GRAY, NOT
READY AT THE PRESENT TIME, PERHAPS WILL INCREASE DRAMATICALLY
AS SOUTH BAY BECOMES INCREASINGLY DEPENDENT ON THE INCREASING
BARGE TRAFFIC FOR ITS FUELING. 1 CALL TO THE AGENCY'S
ATTENTION THAT NONE OF THIS WAS PART OF THE PACKAGE THAT
WENT WITH ENCINA IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT GREW. WE FOUND OUT
ABOUT IT AFTER THE FACT, WHEN ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT ENCINA 5.
MR. BEAN ALSO REFERRED TO THE HAPPY COINCIDENCE'
THAT VARIOUS PIPELINES INTERSECT AT THE REFINERY SITE. ALL
THOSE PIPELINES JUST KIND OF ACCIDENTLY JOINED THERE. ISN'T
THAT A GREAT PLACE TO PUT THE REFINERY?. MR. BEAN WAS IN ERROR
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WHEN HE REFERRED TO THE EXISTING 30-INCH GAS MAIN. PART
OF THE EXISTING LINE IS MUCH SMALLER. SIX INCHES IS THE
SIZE THAT I HEARD.
CARLSBAD ONLY BECAME AWARE OF THE QUESTION WHEN
THE POTTER CONSTRUCTION COMPANY SUDDENLY BEGAN RUNNING PIPE
IN THE LAST MONTH AT THE RATE REPORTED IN THE NEWSPAPER AS
A THOUSAND FEET A DAY, WHERE THE LINES TERMINATE, COINCT-
DENTALLY, AT THE REFINERY SITE.
THE ISSUE THAT I SEE HERE IS THAT WE ARE BEING
PRESENTED WITH A SATELLITE FACILITY FOR THE REFINERY FOR
ANY AGENCY APPROVAL THAT HAS GONE WITH IT. MR. LAFFOON
SPOKE IN PASSING ABOUT PLANS FOR AM LNG FACILITY, WHICH IS
NOT PRESENTLY BEING DEVELOPED. THINK OF THE COMBINED IMPACT
OF THE TANKER PORT, LNG STORAGE FACILITY, PIPELINE CONSTRUC-
TION, TANK FARM FOR THE REFINERY FOR OIL STORAGE TO BE BURNED
AT ENC1NA AND, OF COURSE, NOT NECESSARILY TO BE BURNED IN
SAN DIEGO COUNTY AT ALL IF THE STATE OR FEDERAL AGENCIES
DECIDE OTHERWISE. THEN WE BEGIN TO SEE THE REALITY OF WHAT
MR. LAFFOON UNDERSTOOD WAS TO BE A FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY,
NOT JUST A REFINERY.
TRANSPORTATION BY SHIP OF LNG, NATURALLY SOMETHING
THAT'S NO LONGER BEING CONTEMPLATED. EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS
23 ISOLATED. TRANSPORTATION BY SHIP OF LNG, IF IT DOES BECOME
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A REALITY, OFFERS THE POSSIBILITY FOR THE ULTIMATE IN AIR
POLLUTION. THE EXPLOSIVE FORCE COULD DESTROY MUCH OF THE CITY
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1 I OF CARLSBAD. BUT WE CAN BE REASSURED THAT MR. LAFFOON SAID
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IT ISN'T AT THE MOMENT AN ACTIVE PART OF THE PLAN FOR THE
FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY.
THEN, OF COURSE, WE REMAIN WITH THE QUESTION OF
THE INDUSTRIAL PARK. MR. BEAN INDICATED THAT NAPTHA IS
THE SECOND PRODUCT OF THE REFINERY, THAT IN A FREE ECONOMY
NOTHING WAS SURE UNTIL IT WAS UNDER CONTRACT, AND THAT
NAPTHA IS THE BASIS FOR THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRY.
MR. LAFFOON, WHO IS VICE-PRESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO
GAS AND -ELECTRIC, SPOKE OF THE COMPANY WANTING THIS SOPHIS-
TICATED, PRESUMABLY RELATIVELY CLEAN INDUSTRIAL PARK, BUT
HE INDICATED QUITE CLEARLY THAT ULTIMATELY THE CITY OF
CARLSBAD WOULD DECIDE THROUGH SUCH PROCESSES AS ZONING WHAT
HAPPENS TO THE INDUSTRIAL PARK EVEN THOUGH THE JAPATUL
COMPANY, WHICH OWNS THE LAND, IS A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY
OF SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC.
WE HAVE HEARD MUCH OF THE SYNERGISTIC EFFECT OF
18 THESE VARIOUS QUESTIONS TODAY. IT'S A GREAT TERM. BUCKMASTER
19 FULLER DID US A LOT OF REAL SERVICE IN DEVELOPING THIS
20 CONCEPT. I'M NOT SURE WE ALL USE IT WITH FULL AWARENESS OF
21 EVERYTHING THAT GOES WITH IT.
22 THE QUESTION OF CREDIBILITY WAS ALSO RAISED
23 ! TODAY. I WOULD SUBMIT THAT FOR MANY OF US IN CARLSBAD THERE
24 1 1S A SYNERGISTIC EFFECT ALSO RELATIVE TO CREDIBILITY. WE
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DON'T BELIEVE 1*4 TONS OF ADDITIONAL POLLUTANTS A DAY MEANS
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LESS POLLUTION. WE HAVE BEEN MISLEAD TOO MANY TIMES BY
2 PACIFIC RESOURCES AND SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC. IT'S MY
3 PERSONAL CONV1CTI ON THAT SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC IS ARRO-
GANTLY GOING FORWARD WITH ITS COMPLETE PLANS IN THE CARLSBAD
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FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY WITHOUT ANY FORMAL APPROVAL AND
SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC WILL SUBSEQUENTLY FALL BACK ON
THE ARGUMENT, AS THEY DID WITH ENCINA 5, THAT THEY HAVE
ALREADY INVESTED TOO MUCH MONEY, THAT TOO MUCH IS AT STAKE,
TOO MANY JOBS WILL BE LOST IF AT SOME LATER DATE THEY ARE
DENIED THE REQUEST THAT THEY MAKE. THE SUM OF MONEY INDICATED
IN RELATION TO ENCINA 5 WAS $30 MILLION.
ANOTHER REASON I SPOKE TO THE AGENCY -- IT SEEMS
RATHER FRIVOLOUS, FRANKLY, IN RELATION TO WHAT 1 HAVE BEEN
JUST TALKING ABOUT. I'M A BICYCLE COMMUTER. IN THE PAST
TEN YEARS I HAVE RIDDEN MY BICYCLE APPROXIMATELY 50,000
MILES COMMUTING TO WORK. I HAVE RIDDEN DAILY PAST THE
REFINERY SITE, SUMMER, WINTER, AND PARTICULARLY IN THE FALL
WHEN THE SANTA ANA CONDITIONS TEND TO PREVAIL. WHEN THE
REFINERY ISSUE FIRST CAME UP, THEY HAD THEIR LITTLE PICKUP
OUT THERE DOING THEIR METEOROLOGICAL SURVEY. I RODE EACH
MORNING SOMEWHAT AMUSED AS THE ANEMOMETER RATHER LATHARGICALLY
TURNED BECAUSE IN THE MORNING THERE IS PRACTICALLY NO AIR
CURRENT THERE AT THE SITE.
THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN CONVINCE ME THAT 14 TONS
A DAY OF POLLUTANTS AT THAT POINT WILL NOT RESULT IN
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SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS.
2 FOR THE TOMATOE FIELDS, THE OTHER AGRICULTURAL AREAS, FOR
3 THE FIELD WORKERS IN THAT AREA, THAT HAS TO BE AN EXTRA-
4 ORDINARILY IMPORTANT ISSUE. THE AIR AT THAT POINT IS NOT
5 IN CONSTANT MOTION.
6 THAT LEADS ME TO ANOTHER POINT. AS I RODE BY
7 THERE EVERY MORNING, I SAID, "GEE, I WONDER WHERE THEY'RE
8 GOING TO PUT THAT DAMN THING. THEY SAID IT'S GOING TO BE
9 DOWN IN THE CANYON A LITTLE WAYS." AND THE FIRST PRESENTATION
10 BY PACIFIC RESOURCES SHOWED US WHERE IT WAS GOING TO BE,
M AND IT WAS CLEARLY IN SITE OF EL CAMINO REAL, BUT THEY
12 CHANGED THEIR MIND AND THEY PUSHED IT BACK DOWN THE CANYON.
13 1 WOULD ASK THE QUESTION AS IT RELATES TO AIR POLLUTION
14 WHETHER OR NOT THAT MEASURE, WHICH I FEEL WAS DONE PRIMARILY
15 FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS BENEFIT, IF YOU PUSH IT DOWN THE CANYON
16 AND PUT A BUSH IN FRONT OF IT YOU CAN DENY l'T • EX I STS .
17 WE HAVE HEARD MUCH OF SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS TODAY.
18 1 HOPE THAT EPA DOES ITS OWN STUDY OF THESE .ENORMOUS, COMPLEX
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19 ISSUES AND ARRIVES AT THE BEST POSSIBLE FINDING. IN OTHER
20 WORDS, A FINDING BASED ON THE.SMALLEST PREDICTABLE ERROR
21 POSSIBLE.
22 WE HAVE ALSO HAD RAISED THESE OTHER ISSUES OF
23 CREDIBILITY. MR. SOMMERVILLE RAISED SERIOUS DOUBTS ABOUT
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24 THE COMPREHENSIVENESS OF THE AGENCY STUDY. IF THERE IS ANY
25 VALIDITY TO HIS QUESTIONS, I WOULD URGE YOU TO TAKE THE
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NECESSARY STEPS TO COMPLETE YOUR OWN STUDIES.
ADDITIONALLY, I WOULD ASK YOU TO CONSIDER THE
IMPACT A FEDERAL RULING HAS ON THIS CASE WHICH MEANS SO
INTENSELY -- THAT IS SO TERRIBLY IMPORTANT TO THE CITIZENS
OF THIS COMMUNITY. YOUR TENTATIVE APPROVAL, FRANKLY, READ
LIKE A PRESS RELEASE FOR SAN DIEGO GAS 6 ELECTRIC, AND WAS
SO INTERPRETED IN THE LOCAL PAPERS.
I HOPE THAT THIS AGENCY HAS MUCH MORE SUBSTANTIAL
DATA BEFORE REACHING A FINAL DECISION.
(APPLAUSE)
MAY I SUBMIT THIS BY MAIL?
CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU CERTAINLY MAY.
OLIVFR CARLSON, ADAM STREET, CARLSBAD.
OLIVER CARLSON?
GENE YOUNG, WEST LINCOLN, ESCONDIDO.
ROSE HASSAN.
MS. HASSAN: MY NAME is ROSE HASSAN." i LIVE AT
18 5262 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD IN CARLSBAD. I'M A HOUSEWIFE, BUT
19 MOSTLY I'M A SENIOR CITIZEN.
20 NOW, 1 WOULD JUST LIKE TO TELL MY SIDE OF THE
21 STORY WITHOUT STATISTICS OR ANYTHING ELSE. BUT, I LIVE IN
22 CARLSBAD. I HAVE BEEN HERE FOR FIVE YEARS. AND IN THAT
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23 | LENGTH OF TIME THE NUMBER OF HOUSES HAVE DOUBLED AND THE
24 (NUMBER OF CARS THAT PASS IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE HAVE DOUBLED.
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I HAVE 101 IN FRONT OF ME. I HAVE 5 IN BACK OF ME'. AND WHEN
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1 I i GET UP IN THE MORNING AND OPEN MY DOOR, 1 CLOSE IT VERY
2 QUICKLY BECAUSE THE SMOG HAS SETTLED, A SMELLY AIR, RIGHT
3 OUTSIDE MY DOOR. AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK OF AIR POLLUTION.
4 THANK YOU.
5 (APPLAUSE)
6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: IRIS SANKEY EARLIER SAID SHE
7 PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE HERE, BUT I PROMISED TO CALL THE NAME
8 AGAIN. IRIS SANKEY?
9 MARK NELSON.
10 WILL YOU STATE YOUR ADDRESS AND YOUR AFFILIATION.
11 MR. NELSON: MY NAME IS MARK NELSON. I LIVE
12 AT 3331 MARGARET WAY IN CARLSBAD. 1 AM PRESIDENT OF CARLSBAD
13 COMMUNITY CAUSE.
14 1 WANTED TO READ INTO THE RECORD A OUOTATION
15 FROM A SUMMARY BY THE CALIFORNIA COASTAL ZONE CONSERVATION
16 COMMISSION RELATIVE TO AIR POLLUTION IN THE CARLSBAD AREA
17 AND SAN DIEGO COUNTY. THIS IS ON PAGE 2 OF THEIR APPEAL
18 SUMMARY OF THE ENC1NA 5 DENIAL. IT SAYS:
19 "THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN HAS BEEN DESIGNATED
20 AS A CRITICAL AIR AREA. IT HAS THE POTENTIAL FOR MORE SEVERE
21 AIR POLLUTION PROBLEMS THAN THE SOUTH COAST AIR BASIN BECAUSE
22 | OF METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS. THE PRODUCTIVE NORTH COUNTY
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23 | AGRICULTURAL AREAS AROUND CARLSBAD ARE PARTICULARLY SUSCEPTIBL
!
24 ! TO INCREASES IN AIR POLLUTION."
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I WILL MAKE A COPY OF THIS AND FORWARD IT.
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1 CHAIRMAN WALKER: FOR OUR PRESENT PURPOSES,
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TAKE IT YOU DON'T WANT TO LEAVE IT NOW?
MR. NELSON: IT'S THE ONLY ONE i GOT. i FIGURE
I WILL PROBABLY BE USING IT AGAIN.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET IT
FULLY IDENTIFIED FOR THE RECORD. THIS IS ON THE LETTERHEAD
OF CALIFORNIA COASTAL ZONE CONSERVATION COMMISSION, 15^0 MARKET
STREET, SAN FRANCISCO. THE DOCUMENT IS ENTITLED "APPEAL
SUMMARY." .IT IS APPEAL NO. 78-75SDGSE, ENCINA 5, AND THE
QUOTATION WAS FROM PAGE 2 UNDER "STAFF NOTES," PARAGRAPH 2,
THE SECOND PARAGRAPH.
AND YOU WILL FURNISH US WITH A COPY?
MR. NELSON: I ALSO HAVE ANOTHER STATEMENT. THIS
IS.FROM THE COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING ORGANIZATION OF SAN DIEGO !
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COUNTY REGION, PHASE ONE, POPULATION GROWTH, POLICY STUDY,
FINAL REPORT, PAGE 37.
"THE LEVEL OF AIR POLLUTION IN THE SAN DIEGO
REGION TODAY GREATLY EXCEEDS THE FEDERAL AIR QUALITY
STANDARDS SET UNDER THE CLEAN AIR ACT TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC'S
HEALTH. IN 1973, THE STANDARD FOR PHOTOCHEMICAL OXIDANT,
THE MAJOR POLLUTANT IN THE REGION, WAS EXCEEDED ON 20^ DAVS
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22 OUT OF 365. THESE LEVELS OF AIR POLLUTION HAVE RESULTED IN
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23 I DAMAGE TO VEGETATION IN MUCH OF THE REGION, DAMAGE TO
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CUYAMACA AND PALOMAR STATE PARK HAS BEEN OBSERVED.
"THE SAN DIEGO REGION IS ALSO VERY SUSCEPTIBLE
TO AIR POLLUTION EPISODES, A SITUATION IN WHICH WEATHER
4 CONDITIONS CAUSE POLLUTANTS TO BE TRAPPED CLOSE TO THE
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GROUND AND BUILD VERY HIGH AND DANGEROUS CONCENTRATIONS."
CHAIRMAN WALKER: I TAKE IT THAT YOU WANT TO
RETAIN THAT COPY TOO, AND SUBMIT --
MR. NELSON: ONCE AGAIN, IT'S THE ONLY ONE i
HAVE. 1 WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE BOTH THAT AND THE MAP THAT
SHOWS SAN DIEGO HAS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF EPISODES.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL NOTE FOR THAT RECORD
THEY WILL BE ASSIGNED EXHIBIT NUMBERS WHEN THEY'RE RECEIVED.
WAIT A MINUTE. LET'S MAKE SURE WE HAVE ALL
THIS PROPERLY DESCRIBED FOR THE COURT REPORTER. THIS IS
"PHASE 1, POPULATION GROWTH POLICY STUDY FINAL REPORT,"
AND THE QUOTATION WAS FROM PAGE 37. YOU WERE QUOTING THE
FIRST, SECOND, AND THIRD PARAGRAPHS THAT BEGIN ON PAGE 37.
MR. NELSON: AND ALSO A LETTER FROM THE SAN
DIEGO COUNTY APCD IN WHICH IT INCLUDES THE- FOLLOW 1NG
STATEMENT. 1 WAS WONDERING FOR THE RECORD TO REQUEST OR
FIND OUT IF YOU HAD THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE WHEN YOU
22 1 MADE YOUR STUDY OR YOU THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE USEFUL. IT
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23 ! CONCERNS A REQUEST THAT WE MADE, COMMUNITY CAUSE MADE, TO
24 | HAVE THE MOBILE UNIT LOCATED IN CARLSBAD. MOT A MOBILE UNIT,
25 BUT TO HAVE A SOURCE TEST OF THE ENCINA 5 -- I'M SORRY,
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ENCINA'S 1 THROUGH 4 AT THE POWER PLANT. AND NUMBER 3 ON
THIS LETTER SAID:
"THE APCD SOURCE TEST TEAM WILL CONDUCT A
BOI LER-BY-B.Ol LER INSPECTION OF FACILITY IN NORMAL OPERATION-.,
ON APRIL 9TH, 1975, WITH AN EXPECTED SIX-WEEK COMPLETION
DATE FOR A FINAL REPORT. THIS EVALUATION WILL INCLUDE
TESTING FOR TOTAL PART ICULATES, SULPHUR DIOXIDE, AND NITROGEN
OXIDE EMISSIONS."
THE REASON THAT I ASKED IF YOU HAD THE USE OF
THAT IS THAT THEY TELL US THEY WILL SEND US A COPY OF THE
STUDY WHEN IT'S COMPLETED. WE HAVE YET TO GET OURS, AND I
DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU HAD THAT AVAILABLE. WE THOUGHT IT MIGHT
BE USEFUL -- WHEN WE CALLED THE APCD TO INQUIRE ABOUT JUST
AIR POLLUTION FROM ENCINA, WE WERE ONLY GIVEN FIGURES FOR
UNITS 1, 2, AND 3. AND ASKED WHY THEY DIDN'T HAVE ONE FOR
UNIT 4, THEY SAID THE LAST TEST THEY HAD DONE WAS 1972.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: ANYONE HERE ANSWER THAT
QUEST!ON?
MR. SWICKER: I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT STUDY.
MR. NELSON: PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE USEFUL. IT
MIGHT BE WORTHWHILE CHECKING IT OUT.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
MR. NELSON: OKAY. ALSO, A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING
FROM THE SAN DIEGO UNION. I' WOULD JUST LIKE TO -- I WILL
SEND YOU THIS LATER, BUT IT COMMENTS THAT VEGETABLE DAMAGE
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COUNTY, AND THEN 1 HAVE THE FOLLOWING PREPARED STATEMENT.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU'RE GOING TO SEND US COPIES
OF THOSE EXHIBITS?
MR. NELSON: THAT'S CORRECT.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU UNDERSTAND ALTHOUGH IT'S
NICE TO HAVE THEM HERE IN THE RECORD, WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE
AT LEAST THE EXHIBITS OR COPIES FOR OUR FILES.
MR. NELSON: WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN FINDING
OUT FOR SURE IF THEY DID HAVE THE USE OF THAT SOURCE TEST
OF ENCINA I, 2, J>, AND 4.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: MY POINT IS, I WOULD LIKE TO
MAKE CLEAR IT'S TO YOUR INTEREST TO SEE THAT WE GET COPIES OF
THOSE EXHIBITS.
MR. NELSON: RIGHT.
GENTLEMEN, ON BEHALF OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY
CAUSE, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS ABOVE
AND BEYOND IN HAVING THIS HEARING IN CARLSBAD. THE OPPOR-
UNITY TO ADDRESS A GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY WITHOUT HAVING TO
20 DRIVE A MINIMUM OF 50 MILES IS WELCOME BY ALL OF US.
21 ONE MINOR INFORMATIONAL ITEM THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
22 VALUABLE IN THE PROGRESS OF THE HEARING TODAY AND AIDED MANY
23 I OF OUR OUT-OF-TOWN GUESTS FROM THE COUNTY LABOR ORGANIZATIONS
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24 i WOULD HAVE BEEN TO STATE THAT THE '£' IN EPA DOES NOT STAND
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FOR ECONOMIC PROTECTION AGENCY. (LAUGHTER)
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1 WHILE IT IS TRUE THAT A PERSON CAN'T LIVE IF HE
2 CAN'T EAT, HIS LIFE EXPECTANCY IS EVEN SHORTER ]F HE CAN'T
3 BREATHE. WE DO NOT TAKE COMFORT IN THE FACT THAT MEN IN
4 CARLSBAD -- 1 MEAN CHULA VISTA, EL CAJON, LA MFSA, VISTA, AND
5 ,SAN DIEGO SEE NO PROBLEM WITH THE PROPOSED REFINERY. HOWEVER,
6 LARGE NUMBERS OF NORTH COUNTY RESIDENTS, AS YOU HAVE HEARD,
1 DO OBJECT TO THE ERA'S PROPOSED APPROVAL OF THIS PROJECT.
8 AS OTHERS HAVE STATED TODAY, WE BELIEVE THE
9 , PROJECT SHOULD BE AND MUST BE DENIED. AT THE VERY LEAST,
10 THE PROJECT SHOULD BE DELAYED PENDING ADDITIONAL STUDIES AND
11 INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN REQUESTED BY NUMEROUS INDIVIDUALS
12 TODAY. HOWEVER, !F AT THE END OF YOUR ANALYSIS YOU STILL
13 BELIEVE THE PROJECT MUST BE APPROVED, SPECIAL CONSIDERATION
14 SHOULD BE GIVEN TO ANY PERMIT. TO DATE THE QUESTION HAS BEEN:
15 WILL THE PRODUCTS OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY BE USED ONLY IN
16 SAN DIEGO COUNTY. IT WAS ON THIS BASIS' THAT THE CONDITIONAL
17 EPA APPROVAL WAS GIVEN. NEfTHER THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMIN1S-
18 TRAT10N, THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, THE
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19 ENERGY COMMISSION, OR ANY OTHER AGENCY HAS YET IRREVOCABLY
20 COMMITTED MACARIO'S PRODUCTS TO SAN DIEGO COUNTY. YET, AT
21 THIS POINT, THIS CONDITION AND ONLY THIS CONDITION REALLY
22 WILL ALLOW THE REFINERY'S APPROVAL. -FOR THIS REASON, THE
23 PERMIT SHOULD BE DENIED WITH THE CONDITION THAT IF ALL OTHER
24 STANDARDS ARE MET, IF MACARI 0 AND SDG&E CAN PROVE BEYOND
25 : A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THE FUELS WILL BE USED'IN SAN DIEGO
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COUNTY, THEN AND ONLY THEN, WILL APPROVAL BE GIVEN. THIS PUT'
THE BURDEN OF PROOF WHERE IT BELONGS, ON THE APPLICANT. IT
IS THEIR PROJECT, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE TO DOCUMENT THEIR
CLAIMS, OR THE PERMIT SHOULD BE DENIED.
BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT THAT THE EPA DECISION
WILL HAVE ON FUTURE DECISIONS OF THIS PROJECT BY OTHER
BODIES, UTMOST CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO MAKE SURE OTHERS WILL
NOT MISINTERPRET THE MAGNITUDE OR THE UNCERTAINTY OF THIS
CONDITION. SINCE MACARIO HAS DECIDED TO BEGIN COLLECTING
APPROVALS BEFORE EVEN APPLYING FOR A PERMIT IN THE CITY OF
CARLSBAD, CONSIDERABLE PRESSURE WILL BUILD AND MOUNT WITH
EACH SUCCEEDING AGENCY OR BODY FACING THE QUESTION: "THE
OTHERS APPROVED IT, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?" YET NO ONE
WILL SEE THE COMPLETE PROJECT PLANS OR THE ENVIRONMENTAL
IMPACT REPORT, A DOCUMENT THAT HAS BEEN DELAYED SINCE MARCH
OF 1974. FOR THIS REASON, IF THE EPA DECIDES CONTRARY TtT
ARGUMENT FOR DENIAL PRESENTED TODAY TO ISSUE THE APPROVAL
OF THE PERMIT, PLEASE USE LANGUAGE IN THE CONDITIONS THAT
19 WILL HAVE TO BE USED THAT UNDERSCORES THE PROBLEMS THAT WILL
20 BE FACED IN MEETING THE CONDITION, THE CONDITION OF USING
21 THAT FUEL ONLY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, THE FACT THAT NOBODY
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22 j CAN GUARANTEE THAT RIGHT NOW.
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23 I THE STATEMENT "EPA GIVES CONDITIONAL APPROVAL
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TO REFINERY" GIVES THE IMPRESSION THE PROBLEMS AR'E SATISFIED.
THE STATEMENT "MACARIO ASKED TO PROVE CLAIMS BEFORE PERMISSIO
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GRANTED FOR REFINERY" SHOWS SOMETHING MUCH MORE ACCURATE.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: MR. LOU JONES, CENTER STREET,
OCEANS!DE.
LOU JONES?
DON BOUTVETTE, CARLSBAD.
PLEASE TELL ME HOW CLOSE I CAME TO IT.
MR. BOUTVETTE: YOU CAME FAIRLY CLOSE. CLOSER
THAN MOST..
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY NAME IS DON BOUTVETTE.
I LIVE AT 2381 JEFFERSON STREET, CARLSBAD. I'M NOT A MEMBER
OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. I CAME TO THIS MEETING THIS MORNING
ONLY AS AN OBSERVER AND A CONCERNED CITIZEN, BUT MY ATTENTION
WAS DRAWN TO A LARGE DELEGATION OF TRADE UNIONS PRESENT
AND THEIR SPEAKERS, MOST OF WHOM IT APPEARED WERE NOT
RESIDENTS OF THIS IMMEDIATE AREA.
THEY ALL EXPRESSED WORRY ABOUT JOBS AND MORE JOBS
THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE, BUT I GOT THE DISTINCT GUT FEELING
THAT THEIR JOB WAS THE ONLY PROBLEM ABOUT WHICH THEY WERE
WORRIED. SO, THEY DROVE UP TO CARLSBAD THIS MORNING TO
LET YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THE MACARI 0 REFINERY WOULD MEAN TO
23 THEM FINANCIALLY. SO, 1 FELT I SHOULD COMMENT ON THIS.
24 HENCE, THESE NOTES. THEY WORK UP HERE ON A JOB WHICH COULD
RESULT IN POLLUTION IN THE AIR WHILE WITH THEIR FAMILIES
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THEY LIVE 30 OR 40 MILES AWAY, WHERE THE AIR IS NOT SO
POLLUTED BY THE PRODUCT OF THEIR LABORS. NOT YET, ANYWAY.
IT HAPPENS THAT I TOO AM A UNION MAN. I AM A PAST MEMBER OF
THE NEWSPAPER GUILD OF AMERICA AND THE BOILERMAKERS. YES,
THE BOILERMAKERS. I AM AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE PUBLICISTS
GUILD OF AMERICA, LOCAL 8818, IATSC-CI0-AFL. I AM A PAST
PRESIDENT OF THE PUBLICISTS GUILD. I GIVE THIS LITANY ONLY
TO ESTABLISH MYSELF AS A QUALIFIED MEMBER OF THE LABOR
MOVEMENT. FOR 35 YEARS I HAVE BEEN A WORKING STIFF, HAVE
HIT THE BRICKS AND WALKED PICKET LINES, AND 1 WAS NOT ELECTED
PRESIDENT OF THE PUBLICISTS THREE TIMES BECAUSE I WAS NOT
A MI LITANT LABOR MAN.
IF ANY OF THESE CONSTRUCTION UNIONISTS ARE
WORRIED ABOUT THE CONDITION OF THEIR INDUSTRY, I SUGGEST THEY
TAKE A LOOK AT THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY. I HAVE. I HAVE
NOT HAD A JOB IN IT IN OVER A YEAR. I BROUGHT MY WIFE TO
CARLSBAD FOUR YEARS AGO ON ORDERS FROM HER DOCTOR, WHO SAID
SHE MUST LEAVE THE LOS ANGELES AREA BECAUSE SMOG WAS
DESTROYING HER HEALTH. THIS, HOWEVER, IS NOT THE REASON
20 FOR MY OPPOSITION TO THE MACAR10 REFINERY. FORTUNATELY, WE
21 DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE WHERE [ WORK. WHEN REFINERIES, HEAVY
22 | INDUSTRY, HIGH-DENSITY POPULATION, AND THE RESULTANT AIR
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23 | POLLUTION COMBINE, YOU CHANGE SAN DIEGO COUNTY INTO AN
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EXTENSION OF ORANGE COUNTY, I WILL TAKE MY WIFE TO A YET
UNDEFILED AREA OF THIS BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY.
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BUT WHAT WILL THESE CONSTRUCTION WORKERS DO WITH
THEIR FAMILIES? ARE THEY THINKING THIS FAR AHEAD? ONE OF
THEM, SPEAKING EARLY THIS MORNING, SAID SOMETHING LIKE THIS,
QUOTE, WHAT'S THE USE OF HAVING CLEAN AIR IN OUR LUNGS IF
WE HAVE NO FOOD IN OUR STOMACHS. WE HAD STRONG APPLAUSE TO
THIS FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HALL. 1 CAN ANSWER THAT
QUESTION ONLY WITH ANOTHER QUESTION: WHAT IS THE USE OF
HAVING FOOD IN OUR STOMACHS IF WE ARE ALL DEAD FROM EMPHYSEMA.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: MR. LLOYD VON HADEN, FOOTHILL,
VISTA, CALIFORNIA.
MR. VON HADEN: MY NAME IS LLOYD VON HADEN. I
LIVE AT 2089 FOOTHILL IN VISTA. THAT'S TEN MILES INLAND
FROM HERE. AND VERY LIKELY WHERE MOST OF - THE . POLLUT1 ON
WILL END UP. NOT IN CARLSBAD.
IT'S BEEN SAID THAT ABOUT 98 PERCENT OF THIS
OPERATION WILL BE POLLUTION-FREE. IN OTHER WORDS, ABOUT
TWO PERCENT OF THEIR OPERATION WILL BE BLOWN OVER TO VISTA.
! THINK THAT'S EVEN TOO MUCH.
ALSO, ALL THESE REFINERIES OPERATE A.GOOD
DEAL OF THE TIME ON VARIANCES, WHICH MEANS THAT THEY MIGHT
BE OPERATING 75 PERCENT OR 30 PERCENT. I THINK IT'S
23 i MISLEADING TO THINK ONLY OF THE TERMS -- THINKING OF IT
WHEN IT'S OPERATING AT ITS BEST. 1 DON'T BELIEVE THE DATA
THEY ARE PUTTING OUT ABOUT AIR POLLUTION.
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1 | JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE DAYS, A FEW DAYS AGO
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LAST WEEK, 1 THINK IT WAS, THERE WAS A FIRE IN RIVERSIDE,
AND THE SMOKE FROM THAT FIRE FIRST CIRCULATED AROUND. I
NOTICED IT IN FALLBROOK, WHICH IS ANOTHER LITTLE TOWN ABOUT \L
M1LES NORTH OF VISTA, AND THE NEXT DAY I NOTICED IT IN VISTA.
AND THIS FIRE IS A LONG WAYS AWAY. 'AIR IN THIS REGION DOES
NOT JUST STAY RIGHT HERE OR BLOW A FEW MILES AND THEN
DISAPPEAR. IT TRAVELS AROUND. I SEE MANY STORIES RECENTLY
THAT SAY THAT WE'RE GETTING SMOG FROM LOS ANGELES DOWN HERE.
I THINK IT'S WRONG TO -- I HAVE NO FAITH IN THESE STUDIES
THAT SHOW THAT THIS PROPOSED OPERATION WILL NOT CONTAMINATE
OUR AREA.
ANOTHER POINT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING OUT IS THAT
THIS REFINERY WILL NEED A GREAT DEAL OF FRESH WATER. THEY
SAY ABOUT 2,000,000 GALLONS A DAY. RECENTLY THERE HAVE BEEN
PROPOSALS MADE TO BUILD A TRI-CITY PIPELINE THAT WILL
FURNISH THIS WATER. THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT WATER AT THIS
TIME TO ACCOMMODATE THE REFINERY. THE THREE CITIES,
OCEANS!DE, CARLSBAD, AND VISTA, WERE SUPPOSED TO GET
TOGETHER AND PASS THE BONDS TO BUILD THIS PIPELINE. THIS
WAS PUT BEFORE THE VOTERS OF VISTA IN MAY, AND IT WAS
DEFEATED. THIS BOND ISSUE WAS PART OF A LARGER BOND ISSUE
23 ! FOR NEEDED IMPROVEMENTS, AND THE BALANCE OF THIS ISSUE IS
24 GOING TO BE PUT ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER IN VISTA. BUT
25 THEY'RE GOING TO OMIT THE TRI-AGENCY PIPELINE. THEY HOPE
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TO GET THE TRI-AGENCY PIPELINE BY OTHER MEANS, BUT THERE IS
NO ASSURANCE IT'S GOING TO BE MADE, AND I WOULD LIKE TO
POINT OUT THAT THIS REFINERY SHOULD NOT BE -- THE OFFICIALS
SHOULD NOT ASSUME THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO GO SMOOTHLY
FOR THEM, THAT THEY CAN PRODUCE THIS -- THE FRESH WATER THAT
THEY NEED.
ALL REFINERIES ARE DANGEROUS, AND T SUPPOSE OTHER
PEOPLE HAVE MENTIONED THAT RECENT FIRE IN PHILADELPHIA AT
THE REFINERY THERE, WHICH, AS FAR AS 1 KNOW, IS STILL
BURNING. THEY CAN'T PUT THE NAPTHA FIRE OUT. IT WOULD BE
JUST AS DANGEROUS HERE. WHAT'S MORE, IT'S NEXT TO AN
AIRPORT, WHICH I FEEL IS ABOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE LOCATION
FOR ANY REFINERY. THERE IS GREAT DEANGER THAT THERE WOULD
BE SOME AIRCRAFT TRAGEDIES FALLEN TO THIS REFINERY.
ANOTHER POINT IS THAT I. BELIEVE THAT A REFINERY
CANNOT EXIST BY ITSELF. ITS VERY EXISTENCE WILL ATTRACT
OTHER CLOSELY RELATED AND UNDERS1RABLE INDUSTRIES. CONDITIONS
CHANGE AND OFFICIALS CHANGE. TEN YEARS FROM NOW THEY MIGHT
SAY, "OH, GEE, WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER INDUSTRY THAT
20 WILL BE CLOSELY RELATED THERE." OR WE GET SOME OTHER OFFICIAL^
21 IN THERE THAT ARE NOT AS CONCERNED WITH POLLUTION AS SOME
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AND IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, I THINK IT WOULD BE
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MUCH BETTER IF WE WOULD PUT OUR EFFORTS IN•CONSERVATI ON.
2 WE SHOULD USE LESS REFINERY PRODUCTS RATHER THAN MORE OF
3 THEM. WE SHOULD MAKE MORE OF AN EFFORT TO PRODUCE AND USE
ALTERNATE NON-POLLUT[NG SOURCES OF ENERGY. AND I ESPECIALLY
5 FAVOR SOLAR ENERGY. I BELIEVE WE'RE AT THE END OF AN ERA
6 WHEN WE CAN GET BOTH CHEAP ENERGY AND MATERIALS, AND I THINK
7 THAT WE MUST ALL ADJUST TO CHANGING CONDITIONS.
8 THEREFORE, I STRONGLY URGE THE EPA NOT TO OPPOSE -
9 OR NOT APPROVE THIS REFINERY.
10 (APPLAUSE) .
n CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. VON HADEN.
12 THE NEXT CARD IS THELMA VON HADEN OF THE SAME
13 ADDRESS.
]4 MRS_ VON HADEN: MY NAME IS THELMA VON HADEN.
15 I'M A HOUSEWIFE, AND I RESIDE AT 2089 FOOTHILL DRIVE IN VISTA.
16 YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY IDEA HOW DELIGHTED I WAS WHEN I
17 DISCOVERED THAT THIS AREA.WILL NO LONGER HAVE TO RELY ON
18 AN INFERIOR GRADE OF IMPORTED SMOG. NOW WE'RE GOING TO
19 START PRODUCING OUR OWN. (APPLAUSE)
20 UNFORTUNATELY, THIS REFINERY IS SUPPOSED TO BE
21 ISSUED A CERTIFICATE OF CONVENIENCE AND NECESSITY, BUT I
22 HAVE SEEN NO DEMONSTRATION THAT THE NAT I ON'S -EX ISTING
23 REFINERIES ARE BEING OPERATED AT CAPACITY; I. HAVE SEEN NO
24 DEMONSTRATION THAT EXISTING REFINERY SITES HAVE BEEN COVERED
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TO THEIR FULL CAPACITY. I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION WHICH
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1 I OCCURRED TO ME THIS MORNING ABOUT HOW THE REFINERY IS GOING
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TO BE PAID FOR. IF IT IS A FULLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF SAN
DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC, CAN ITS CAPITAL COSTS BE ADDED TO THE
COMPANY'S RATE BASE AND PAID FOR BY THE RATE PAYERS?
NOW, I KNOW THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
AGENCY IS FREQUENTLY GIVEN ARGUMENTS THAT WE MUST BALANCE
ANY CLEAN ENVIRONMENT AGAINST THE DEMANDS OF A FUNCTIONING
ECONOMY, THAT WE MUST BE CAREFUL THAT WE ARE NOT WIPING OUT
JOBS. HOWEVER, THE ENTIRE ENERGY INDUSTRY IS EXTREMELY
CAPITAL INSENSITIVE. IT IS A RATHER SMALL EMPLOYER OF
LABOR, AND IT IS FOR THIS REASON THAT PUERTO RICO'S OPERATION
BOOTSTRAP IS FALLING ON ITS FACE. WHAT WE ARE BEING OFFERED
HERE, EVEN WHILE BOOTSTRAP IS FAILING, IS A LOCAL ADDITION
OF OPERATION BOOTSTRAP.
FURTHERMORE, REFINERIES ARE NOT ALL A PLUS
MATTER. THEY ARE LARGE ENERGY USERS, AND I HAVE A VERY
STRONG SUSPICION THAT ONE REASON WHY THE REFINERY AND ITS
18 j RELATED USERS ARE BEING BROUGHT IN IS THAT THIS POWER
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COMPANY URGENTLY NEEDS NEW CUSTOMERS FOR ITS NEW FACILITIES,
AND THAT THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS VAST ENERGY COMPLEX WILL
BE TO COMMIT INCEST WITH THE POWER PLANTS. (LAUGHTER)
22 ! FURTHERMORE, THE INCREASES IN POPULATION AND
23 BUSINESS, WHICH THIS COMPLEX WILL BRING IN, SUCH COMPLEXES
24 i HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN SHOWN TO COST US MORE TO PROVIDE WITH
25 SERVICES THAN THEY WILL BRING IN IN TAXES. WITHOUT CLEAN
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1 ENVIRONMENT AND WITHOUT CONSERVATION WHICH WILL HELP US
2 POSTPONE RESOURCE EXHAUSTION, WE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY
3 ECONOMY EITHER.
4 I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS MORNING IN OUR NEIGHBORING
5 CITY OF LOS ANGELES THERE WAS A HEALTH ADVISORY. I WOULD
6 LIKE TO ASK THE QUESTION OF WHAT ONE DOES FOR ONE'S HEALTH
7 DURING A HEALTH ADVISORY.
8 FURTHERMORE, I WISH THAT ADVOCATES OF NEW FORMS
9 OF LOW-POLLUTING INDUSTRY WOULD PLEASE STOP ACTING AS IF
10 EVERY TIME YOU BUILD A LOW-POLLUTION FACILITY ITS POLLUTION
11 WILL BE SUBTRACTED FROM WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE RATHER THAN
12 ADDED TO IT.
13 THANK YOU.
14 (APPLAUSE)
15 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THE NEXT CARD IS JOHN P.
16 MC GILL, HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD.
17 MR. MC GILL: I'M JOHN MC GILL OF 43^0 HIGHLAND
18 DRIVE IN CARLSBAD.
,9 I WOULD FIRST LIKE TO SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND THEN
20 AS A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. I WOULD LIKE TO BRING TO
21 YOUR ATTENTION, GENTLEMEN, TWO SPEAKERS AND THE FACT THAT
22 | BOTH OF THEM BROUGHT UP TO YOU THIS EVENING AND THIS AFTERNOO
23 SOMETHING THAT IS SOMEWHAT AKIN TO A SAYING A FEW YEARS BACK
24 ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE, PERHAPS: THE WAY TO A MAN'S HEART
25 is THROUGH HIS STOMACH. WE HAVE SEEN HERE, BY YOUR ACTION
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OF THE PAST FEW MONTHS,'THAT THE WAY TO ACHIEVE CONSTRUCTION
2 OF THIS REFINERY IS THE INDIRECT APPROACH. FOR WHAT IN
3 ESSENCE YOU WILL DO WILL HAVE PERHAPS A TOTALLY ADVERSE
EFFECT UPON ALL OTHER GOVERNING BODIES. IT DOES NOT ESCAPE
5 US HERE IN CARLSBAD THAT THE PRIME PURPOSE OF BRINGING YOU
6 IN AT THIS TIME WAS TO ACHIEVE THIS. THE PEOPLE WHO OPERATE
SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC, MACARIO REFINERY ARE NOT UNINTELLI-
8 GENT OR IMBECILES, AS THE CASE MIGHT BE. THEY ARE VERY
9 INTELLIGENT PEOPLE. AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE HERE TODAY ARE
10 INTELLIGENT, TOO, AND THEY CAN SEE THIS PURPOSE. SO, FOR
11 THE RECORD, PLEASE REMEMBER THIS, THAT WE ARE AWARE OF THE
12 FACT AND THE PURPOSE WHY SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC STROVE
13 VERY EARNESTLY TO HAVE YOU MAKE A PRONOUNCEMENT WITH REGARD
14 TO PERHAPS THE FUTURE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS REFINERY.
15 AS A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE, I WOULD LIKE TO
16 RESPOND TO MR. PRESCOTT. MR. PRESCOTT LEFT A FEW MINUTES
17 AGQ_ HE CAME FN/ MADE A STATEMENT, AND LEFT. HE MADE A
18 STATEMENT WHICH I RESENT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS NOT TRUE. HE
19 SAID THAT PEOPLE WHO SPOKE FOR COMMUNITY CAUSE SPOKE WITH
20 EMOTIONALISM. YET WHEN MR. PRESCOTT SPOKE, I DON'T RECALL
21 HIM PRESENTING YOU WITH FACTS, DETAILS. MERELY GENERALITIES
22 YET THE SPEAKERS FROM COMMUNITY CAUSE AS WELL AS THOSE WHO
23 ! SPOKE ON THEIR OWN BEHALF IN THIS COMMUNITY AND OTHER
24 ! COMMUNITIES SPOKE VERY ELOQUENTLY, PRESENTED DETAILED FACTS
25 WHICH CAN BE SUBTANTIATED, AND I THINK YOU SHOULD REMEMBER
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I' THAT AS YOU PROCEED FURTHER ON IN THIS MATTER.
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THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. MC GILL.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASSURE ALL OF YOU ONE OF THE
REASONS FOR HAVING A STENOGRAPHIC REPORTER TAKE THESE
HEARINGS DOWN IS SO EVERYONE'S ELOQUENCE OR LACK THEREOF
CAN BE PRESERVED AND CAN BE REVIEWED AT LEISURE.
I GUESS WE HAVE ONE MORE FAMILY ACT. MEGAN
JACKSON OF CHINQUAPIN, CARLSBAD.
MS. JACKSON: YOU GOT THE FAMILY RIGHT. I'M
AFRAID YOU MISPRONOUNCED THE FIRST NAME.
CHAIRMAN WALKER:' THAT'S PRETTY CLOSE FOR ME.
MS. JACKSON: OKAY, I'LL GRANT YOU THAT.
JUST RECENTLY 1 GRADUATED FROM CARLSBAD HIGH
SCHOOL, AND NOW I'M GOING AWAY, BUT NOT ALL MY FRIENDS ARE,
AND THEY DON'T LIKE IT HERE BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO
BREATHE. LAST YEAR I CAN REMEMBER AT LEAST A COUPLE OF
TIMES DURING P.E. WE WERE FORCED TO CANCEL IT BECAUSE IT
WAS JUST LUD1CRIOUS. YOU RUN AROUND THE TRACK A COUPLE OF
TIMES, AND YOU START GASPING. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT.
STUDENTS DON'T LIKE THAT. I FIGURE THAT SINCE WE'RE GOING
23 ! TO BE AROUND' LONGEST, PERHAPS YOU OUGHT TO LISTEN TO WHAT
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WE SAY. WE ARE YOUNGER THAN YOU ARE, PERHAPS, AND WE DON'T
HAVE AS MUCH EXPERIENCE, BUT WE CAN DO THINGS. AND AFTER A
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WHILE IT WILL BE US WHO ARE THE ONES WHO WILL MAKE DECISIONS.
BESIDES THE AIR POLLUTION FACTOR, WE DON'T LIKE
SWIMMING AT A BEACH FILLED WITH TAR. AND AFTER ALL, THE
BEACH IS PRACTICALLY ALL THERE IS TO DO IN CARLSBAD. SO,
KEEP IN MIND THINGS LIKE THIS WHEN YOU GO TO MAKE A DECISION
ON WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO TO BUILD A REFINERY.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
WE HAVE NOW GONE THROUGH THE CARDS. 1 WILL NOW
CALL THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT RESPOND WHEN THEIR
NAMES WERE EARLIER CALLED. IF ANY ARE HERE AND WISH TO
SPEAK, WE WILL HEAR YOU. IF ANYBODY KNOWS OF STATEMENTS
THAT THEY WISH TO FORWARD OR HAND IN, THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY
MR. STANLEY WALLEN, HYMETTUS, LEUCADIA.
MR. C. E. KOOMS, SAN DIEGO BUILDING TRADES.
MR. JAMES D. THOMSON OF CARLSBAD.
ARTHUR J. MEIER, CHEVY CHASE, LA MESA, CALIFORNIA,
HE REPRESENTS LOCAL 230. DOESN'T SAY WHAT UNION.
MONTY NESB1T, SAN PABLO DRIVE, LAKE SAN MARCOS.
ANTHONY BELLIN, CAMIN1TO ESTRADA, CARLSBAD.
JOHN M. STUPPY, JAMES DRIVE. I PRESUME CARLSBAD.
CECIL J. YOUNGSTROM OF CARLSBAD. DON ALBERTO
24 DRIVE
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CHRIS CHRISTIE, HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD.
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E. W. ANDERSON, SKYLINE ROAD, CARLSBAD.
FRED CLAYTON, PRUETT DRIVE, VISTA.
BARBARA T1CE WILLIAMS, MIRA SAL, VISTA.
JAY C. FIKES, BUENA VISTA CIRCLE, CARLSBAD.
OLIVER CARLSON, ADAMS STREET, CARLSBAD.
GENE YOUNG, WEST LINCOLN, ESCOND1DO.
IRIS SANKEY, SOUTH SIERRA, SOLANA BEACH.
LOU JONES, CENTER STREET IN OCEANSIDE.
IF YOU KNOW ANY OF THESE PEOPLE AND THEY DO WISH
TO SEND IN COMMENTS, WE WILL RECEIVE THEM FOR UP TO 30 DAYS.
I SEE SOMEONE APPROACHING THE PODIUM.
MR. MILLER: I WAS HERE THIS MORNING, AND I PUT
IN -- IN FACT, 1 SPOKE TO YOU PERSONALLY ON A QUESTION I HAD.
I'M JUST ASKING YOU: MAY 1 SPEAK?
CHAIRMAN WALKER: YES, YOU CERTAINLY MAY.
MR. MICHAEL MILLER?
MR. MILLER: YES, SIR.
18 i CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU GO AHEAD, MR. MILLER.
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19 ' MR. MlLLER: THANK YOU.
20 IS THIS ON?
21 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 BELIEVE SO.
22 MR. MILLER: I'M MICHAEL MILLER, AND i LIVE A
23 I FEW BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE HIGH SCHOOL. 1 GRADUATED LAST -YEAR
24 j ] KNOW YOUR TIME IS VALUABLE BUT AT THIS POINT,
25 I THIS ISSUE IS MORE VALUABLE TO ME BECAUSE I GO SURFING
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1 PRACTICALLY EVERY DAY, EVERY MORNING, AND I SEE THESE OIL
2 TANKERS COMING IN AND OUT. WHAT'S THIS TOWN COMING TO,
3 I WONDER INSIDE MY HEAD. AND TO ME IT DOESN'T SEEM LOGICAL
4 THAT A REFINERY WOULDN'T POLLUTE, WOULDN'T MAKE MORE P.OLLU-
5 TANTS INTO THE AIR, CONTRIBUTE MORE POLLUTANTS INTO THE AIR.
6 AS YOU CAN SEE, I DON'T HAVE A, PREPARED STATEMENT (LAUGHTER).
7 I'M AGAINST IT (LAUGHTER). (APPLAUSE)
8 I WANT TO GROW UP IN THIS TOWN AND MAYBE POSSIBLY
9 SETTLE DOWN AFTER GOING AWAY FOR A COLLEGE EDUCATION OR
10 SOMETHING, AND I DON'T WANT TO COME BACK INTO THIS TOWN AND
11 SEE IT TURN INTO A HUNTINGTON BEACH, FOR INSTANCE. THERE'S
12 A REFINERY ACROSS FROM THE BEACH UP THERE, AND THIS REFINERY
13 IS SUPPOSED TO BE LOCATED -- THIS PROPOSED REFINERY IS
14 SUPPOSED TO BE LOCATED 2.2 MILES FROM THE COASTLINE.
15 HUNTINGTON BEACH UP THERE LOOKS LIKE A--EXCUSE
16 THE EXPRESSION--LOOKS LIKE --
17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: SEWER.
is -MR. MILLER: -- SEWER. THANK YOU. IT DOES.
j
19 I MEAN, IT'S A MESS. AND CARLSBAD IS A BEAUTIFUL TOWN.
20 I LIVE HERE. I'VE LIVED HERE MOST OF MY LIFE. I LIVED IN
21 OCEANSIDE FOR TWO YEARS. I'M JUST TOTALLY AGAINST IT.
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22 AND IF I SEE IT COME INTO THIS TOWN, I'M
23 SERIOUSLY GOING TO BE PICKING UP MY BAG AND MOVING EITHER
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REFINERY. (LAUGHTER)
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1 ALL RIGHT, YOU GUYS CAUGHT ME, BUT THAT'S BESIDE
2 THE POINT. HAWAII HAS WINDS THAT BLOW OUT THE POLLUTION
3 AND FILTH YOU PUT OUT IN THE AIR FROM A REFINERY OUT TO SEA,
4 AND CARLSBAD DURING -- WHAT'S HIS NAME SAID IN THE EARLY
5 MORNING HOURS THERE'S NO WIND AT ALL, AND THIS FILTH AND
6 POLLUTION WILL JUST BE INVERTED STRAIGHT UP INTO THE OZONE
7 LAYER AND WHATEVER, BUT TO ME IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A VERY
8 GOOD -- ECONOMICALLY.IT SEEMS LIKE A GOOD THING FOR THIS
9 TOWN, BUT ENVIRONMENTALLY IT LOOKS LIKE A HELL HOLE.
10 THANK YOU.
11 (APPLAUSE)
12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE BEEN HANDED ONE MORE
13 CARD, A MR. JIM RICE, WOODLAND WAY, CARLSBAD.
14 MR. RICE: I'M JIM RICE FROM 3^03 WOODLAND WAY,
15 CARLSBAD.
16 I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING PREPARED TONIGHT, BUT I
17 JUST HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING AGAINST THIS BEFORE IT'S ALL OVER.
18 I MOVED DOWN FROM L.A. ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, MOVED DOWN
19 BECAUSE THE SMOG AND POLLUTION IS SO BAD UP THERE. 1 FINALLY
20 FOUND A CLEAN COMMUNITY, AND NOW THEY'RE GOING TO BUILD A
21 REFINERY, OR MIGHT BUILD ONE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE I'M GOING
22 TO GO NEXT. MAYBE MEXICO. I CAN'T KEEP RUNNING AWAY, SO
23 ! I'M GOING TO TRY TO FIGHT IT WHILE I CAN. (APPLAUSE)
24 I TOO SURF A LOT. 1 WAS OUT SURFING A COUPLE
25 WEEKS AGO A FEW MILES SOUTH OF WHERE THE TANKERS MOOR.
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WHILE 1 WAS SURFING, A COUPLE 55-GALLON DRUMS CAME IN. I
2 DON'T THINK THAT'S TOO GOOD, TO LET DRUMS FLOAT AROUND. YOU
3 CAN GET HIT BY A DRUM. I JUST WANT TO SAY I'M AGAINST THIS.
4 (APPLAUSE)
5 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE TWO MORE CARDS. WE
6 HAVE HEARD FROM THE REST OF THE JACKSON FAMILY. MR. GENE
JACKSON, JR.
8 MR. JACKSON: I HAVE JUST GOT A COUPLE OF THINGS
9 TO SAY. ONE IS, I WORK AT A PLACE JUST ACROSS THE ROAD FROM
10 THE PROPOSED REFINERY SITE, AND OUR BREAK TIME, LUNCH TIME
11 COINCIDES JUST WHEN THE SUN IS GOING DOWN. WE LIKE TO GO
12 OUTSIDE THERE, YOU KNOW, ON THE PATIO AND TAKE A LOOK AT
13 THE SUNSETS. AND A SUNSET OVER A REFINERY JUST ISN'T MUCH
14 TO LOOK AT, YOU KNOW.
15 ANOTHER THING IS THIS KIND OF NOISE. YOU MAKE
16 THE ROUNDS OUTSIDE, SIT OUT THERE AND BREATHE. BEING RIGHT
H ACROSS THE ROAD FROM THE REFINERY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE
18 ABLE TO DO THAT TOO MUCH IF THEY WILL BUILD THERE.
19 SOMETHING ELSE IS PROBABLY IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL
20 IMPACT REPORT, BUT JUST LIKE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT:
21 THERE IS A LOT OF ANIMALS OUT THERE. YOU KNOW. COYOTES.
22 WF SAW A COYOTE WANDER BY AT NOON, BY THE FENCE. THAT'S NOT
23 THE KIND OF THING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN THE AREA BUILDS
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25 FOLLOW IT. THAT'S GOING TO MOVE THAT WILD LIFE OUT. AND
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1 IT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD OPEN OUR EYES TO BEFORE IT'S TOO
2 LATE. THIS REFINERY IS GOING TO DESTROY IT.
3 ' I'VE SEEN OTHER REFINERY TOWNS. EL SEGUNDO,
4 MARTINEZ. MARTINEZ IS OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, BUT THE
5 IMPACT OF SOMETHING BEING OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, HALF
6 HIDDEN AWAY WHERE PEOPLE CAN'T SEE IT IS JUST THAT MUCH MORE
7 DEVASTATING WHERE YOU SEE ACRES AND ACRES PAVED OVER WITH
8 TANKS, ACRES AND ACRES PAVED OVER WITH, YOU KNOW, THE JUNK
9 AND THE PIPES AND THE STEAM AND INDUSTRIAL HELL THAT COMES
10 WITH A REFINERY.
n CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN FORTUNATE IN A LOT OF WAYS
12 TO ESCAPE FROM THE PLIGHT OF THE INDUSTRIAL -- THE CHAINS
13 THAT INDUSTRY HOLDS, YOU KNOW, HEAVY INDUSTRY, YOU KNOW,
HOLDS SO MUCH OF AMERICA IN. I THINK WE SHOULD TRY TO KEEP
IT THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT TO LOSE. 1 THINK THIS
REFINERY IS GOING TO DESTROY MUCH.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN.WALKER: LOIS BONCER.
MS. BONCER: THIS MEETING is SUPPOSED TO BE
ABOUT- AIR 'POLLUTION RATHER THAN OPENING UP OTHER PROBLEMS
AN D - -
CHAIRMAN WALKER: WAIT JUST A SECOND AND WE
WILL MOVE THE MICROPHONE DOWN.
MS. BONCER: I'M SORRY, i NEVER GREW.
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1 THANK YOU.
2 CHAIRMAN WALKER: NOW, WE HAVE YOUR NAME RIGHT?
3. MS. BONCER: BONCER.
4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: AND YOU'RE --
5 MS. BONCER: 5219 EL ARBOL DRIVE IN CARLSBAD.
6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
7 MS. BONCER: 1 HAVE BEEN A RESIDENT OF TERRAMAR
8 FOR OVER TEN YEARS, WHICH IS A VERY NEAR NEIGHBOR OF THE
9 ENCINA POWER PLANT. THE MACARIO REFINERY PEOPLE SAY THEY
10 ARE GOING TO HAVE TO MEET AIR POLLUTION STANDARDS AS SET
11 MY LAW AND THAT, THEREFORE, WE HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT,
12 JUST AS THE ENCINA POWER PLANT HAS TO MEET AIR POLLUTION
13 STANDARDS. AND THEY SAY THEY DO MEET THESE STANDARDS, AND
14 THEY HAVE THE FIGURES FROM THE POLLUTION CONTROL TO PROVE
,5 IT. 1 JUST WANT TO SAY THAT BEING A NEAR NEIGHBOR I HAVE ON
16 MANY OCCASIONS SEEN THE BLACK SMOKE POURING OUT. NOT EVERY
17 DAY, OF COURSE, BUT IT IS INVISIBLE, AND WE ALL KNOW IT
18 ISN'T THE VISIBLE PART THAT IS THE MOST DANGEROUS.
19 ON THREE OCCASIONS I HAVE ATTENDED THE AIR
20 CONTROL BOARD IN SAN DIEGO WHEN THEY WERE POURING FORTH THE
21 BLACK SMOKE, ASKING THEM TO COME UP AND TEST THE AIR NOW,
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22 AND ON ALL THREE OCCASIONS I HAVE GOTTEN A RECEPTIONIST TYPE
23 WHO TOLD ME THERE IS NOBODY IN THE OFFICE WHOM I CAN TALK TO,
24 NO ONE THERE WHO KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT AIR POLLUTION OR CAN
25 TAKE ANY COMPLAINTS AT THE TIME. AND I THINK THIS IS VERY
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SIGNIFICANT. THIS HAS HAPPENED ON THREE OCCASIONS WHICH, TO
ME, SAYS THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN KEEPING CLOSE TABS ON
THE INDUSTRY THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MONITORING, THAT
THEY ARE MOT INTERESTED IN CITIZEN'S COMPLAINTS TO THAT EFFEC1
(APPLAUSE)
NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A SUGGESTION TO THE
MACAR10 PEOPLE, THAT IF THEY ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY CAN
MEET AND CONTINUE TO MEET ALL AIR POLLUTION STANDARDS AND
THAT THEIR REFINERY WILL NOT BE OF ANY DANGER TO ANYONE,
THAT THEY PUT UP A SEVERAL-MILLION DOLLAR BOND OF THEIR OWN
MONEY THAT PEOPLE COULD PUT IN CLAIMS AGAINST SHOULD THEY
FEEL THAT THEY ARE SUFFERING ANY ILL EFFECTS FROM THIS
REFINERY. 1 SUGGEST THEY PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH
IS. (APPLAUSE) WITH THEIR MONEY, I THINK PEOPLE WOULD
FEEL A LOT BETTER ABOUT IT, WOULD BE MORE FREE TO BELIEVE
THEM WHEN THEY MAKE THESE PROMISES.
THANK YOU.
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
MRS. JOAN JACKSON: MAY i ADDRESS --
CHAIRMAN WALKER: CERTAINLY, i AM ABOUT TO
CALL FOR ANYBODY WHO HAS NOT YET SPOKEN.
MRS. JACKSON: i WOULD JUST LIKE TO THANK YOU
23 I VERY, VERY MUCH FOR COMING TO OUR COMMUNITY. I THINK THIS
j
24 WAS A VERY WELL-ORGANIZED HEARING, AND WE REALLY APPRECIATE
25 THE OPPORTUNITY OF HAVING YOU HERE. AND I WOULD ALSO LIKE
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TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT IT MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE AN ALL-
JACKSON FAMILY SHOW. HOWEVER, I HAVE TWO CHILDREN WHO
WEREN'T HERE TONIGHT.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: ONE MORE?
TELL US YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS.
MR. DALCOFF:. MY NAME is LARRY DALCOFF. i LIVE
AT 2601 JEFFERSON STREET IN CARLSBAD. I ALSO AM HAPPY THAT
YOU HELD YOUR HEARING HERE.
THIS IS A VERY WONDERFUL COMMUNITY. I'M VERY
GLAD 1 LIVE HERE. I'M PARTICULARLY HAPPY THAT IT DOES HAVE
SO MUCH PARTICIPATION BY THE ORDINARY CITIZEN IN ITS
COMMUNITY AFFAIRS. MANY VALUABLE THINGS ABOUT THE COMMUNITY.
HOPE THAT PRESERVATION OF THE COMMUNITY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
IN ITS PRESENT FORM IS CONSIDERED- A DESIRE BY YOUR COMMITTEE.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.
BEFORE WE GO TOO FAR SAYING ALL THE NICE THINGS,
LET US BE SURE THAT EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THE
AIR CONTAMINATION PROBLEM HAS BEEN HEARD.
' ONE MORE? TELL US YOUR NAME, ADDRESS, AND
23 AFFILIATION.
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MR. GUNTO : MY NAME IS JOE GUNTO. I LIVE AT
146 REDWOOD AVENUE IN CARLSBAD.
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CHAIRMAN WALKER: JOE --
MR. GUNTO: GUNTO, G-U-N-T-0.
I MOVED TO CARLSBAD ALMOST EXACTLY ONE YEAR AGO
•TO GO TO SCHOOL AT MIRA COSTA COLLEGE, AND THAT WAS PART OF
WHY 1 CAME-HERE. I THINK PART OF WHY 1 CAME HERE IS BECAUSE
I HAD SUBJECTED MYSELF TO TWO YEARS OF LIFE IN LONG BEACH,
IF YOU CAN CALL THAT LIFE. I'M FACED IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS
OF HAVING TO MOVE NORTH TO A TOWN A LOT OF PEOPLE IN
CALIFORNIA REALLY LIKE. THEY WOULD LIKE TO GO THERE. THAT'S
SANTA BARBARA. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN THERE. I HAVE
BEEN THERE A COUPLE OF TIMES IN THE LAST MONTH OR SO TO CHECK
IT OUT. AND ONE THING THAT REALLY IMPRESSED ME WAS SOMEONE
SAYING, "DON'T WORRY ABOUT GOING SWIMMING HERE UNLESS
YOU'RE WILLING TO DRIVE ABOUT 35 MILES UP THE COAST, OR
EIGHT OUT OF TEN TIMES YOU WILL COME BACK WITH OIL IN YOUR
HAIR," WHICH DOESN'T SOUND TOO APPEALING.
BUT WHEN I LIVED IN COLORADO A FEW YEARS AGO I
WORKED IN A CHEMICAL PLANT FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS. I THINK
THAT OIL REFINERIES AND CHEMICAL PLANTS ARE KIND OF A LOT
ALIKE. AND THE MACAR10 PLANT HAS STATED THEY CAN CONTROL
THE AMOUNT OF POLLUTION THAT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT INTO THE
AIR, AND THEY GIVE ALL THE NICE, NEAT FIGURES THEY HAVE IN
THEIR LITTLE BULLETIN, WHICH PROBABLY DOESN'T MEAN ANY MORE
TO YOU THAN IT DOES TO ME. BUT THEY HAVE GIVEN IT TO YOU
ANYWAY.
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1 AFTER WORKING SIX YEARS IN A CHEMICAL PLANT AND
2 OBSERVING HOW THE MACHINERY AND THE CONTROLS THAT THEY USE
3 TO CONTROL THE PROCESSES AND STUFF WORK, THEY DON'T WORK
4 TOO WELL. THE OPERATORS WHO RUN THE PLANTS USUALLY END UP
5 HAVING TO WORK WITH THE NEW PROCESSORS, WHICH THE.MACAR10
6 IS TOTALLY GOING TO BE A NEW PROCESS, SO YOU CAN EXPECT
7 A LOT OF PROBLEMS RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING. BUT THE OPERATORS
8 USUALLY HAVE TO WORK A LOT TO GET THE PROCESS TO WORK AT ALL
9 WITH ANY KIND OF A TOLERANCE.
10 1 THINK SOMEBODY ELSE POINTED OUT EARLIER THEY
II USUALLY ALLOWED THEMSELVES SOME TYPE OF TOLERANCE TO WORK
12 WITHIN. YOU FIND IF THINGS REACH ABOUT 70 PERCENT OF THEIR
13 PEAK EFFICIENCY THEY'RE DOING PRETTY WELL. AND SOME OF
14 THE THINGS THAT ARE CONSIDERED MORE ON THE LOW PRIORITY OF
15 WHAT THE PLANT IS INTERESTED IN SEEING THAT THEY DO WORK
16 EFFICIENTLY ARE THE THINGS THAT CONTROL POLLUTION. THESE
17 THINGS SEEM TO HAVE A WAY OF GETTING PUSHED IN THE BACKGROUND
18 WHEN THEY ARE ALLOCATING FUNDS TO PREPARE THEM AND TO
19 MAINTAIN THEM.
20 THE LADY THAT WAS UP HERE JUST TWO OR THREE
21 PEOPLE BEFORE ME POINTED OUT WHEN SHE USED TO CALL THE AGENCY
22 IN SAN DIEGO WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE WATCHING THE EMCINA
23 PLANT AND ASKED THEM TO COME UP AND CHECK THE AIR NOW, THAT
24 ISA KEY FACTOR. AND IF THE PLANT GOES IN, YOU WILL ALL
25 BECOME AWARE OF THAT IN A FEW YEARS, THE "NOW" THING.
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1 HAVE BEEN IN THE OFFICE IN THE PLANT I WORKED IN IN
COLORADO WHEN CALLS WERE COMING IN BY PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN
THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY ABOUT "WHAT'S THE SMELL THAT'S
GOING TO THE AIR? AND WILL THIS DAMAGE OUR PLANTS OR WILL'
THIS DAMAGE OUR LUNGS" OR WHATEVER. THE ONLY THING WE WERE
TOLD, "DON'T PICK UP THE TELEPHONE. WE HAVE A TAPE RECORDER
THAT ANSWERS ALL THESE MESSAGES, AND WE WILL HANDLE IT
TOMORROW WHEN THE OFFICE STAFF COMES IN."
WELL, 1 DON'T THINK 1 HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU
WHAT ALL THAT MEANS. BUT I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU THIS.
LIKE I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO COMING BACK TO CARLSBAD TO LIVE.
1 REALLY LIKE THIS AREA. I LIKE THE CLEAN AIR THAT'S HERE.
1 LIKE THE PACE THAT IS HERE. I THINK THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF
YOU ARE HERE FOR, THE PACE OF LIFE. AND THAT TO ME IS' OF
KEY IMPORTANCE. IT ISN'T FAST LIKE LOS ANGELES. THE AIR
IS CLEAN. AND IF YOU'RE HERE FOR THAT REASON, THEN YOU
BETTER MAKE IT KNOWN NOW AND SPEAK UP OR SAVE IT BECAUSE
WHEN IT'S GONE, IT'S GONE.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: i SEE A GENTLEMAN IN THE BACK
THERE.
WOULD YOU GIVE US YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS AND
AFFILIATION.
24 MR. HOLLENDEN: MY NAME IS GARY HOLLENDEN. I
25
LIVE AT 5400 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD IN CARLSBAD.
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1 GENTLEMEN, 1 REALIZE THAT LOVE OF A PLACE IS NOT
2 PART .OF YOUR CHARTER. I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A SET OF
3 STANDARDS TO WHICH YOU MUST WORK. I WOULD LIKE TO, HOWEVER,
4 POINT OUT TO YOU THAT MOST DESIGNS ARE A SET OF STANDARDS
5 AND OBJECTIVES; AND UNTIL THEY'RE BUILT AND UNTIL THEY HAVE
6 WORKED EVERY SINGLE DAY, WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WILL
7 WORK OR WHETHER THEY WON'T WORK.
8 I AS AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER HAVE SEEN MANY
9 SYSTEMS DESIGNED AND NOT WORKED TO THOSE POSSIBILITIES OR
10 DESIGN OBJECTIVES. I, AS CHAIRMAN OF THE ELECTRICAL
11 ENGINEERING ORGANIZATION IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, HAVE
12 MANY PROBLEMS WHERE ORGANIZATIONS HAVE WORKED FAR BELOW --
13 1 MEAN OPERATIONS HAVE WORKED FAR BELOW THE DESIGN SPECIFI-
14 CATIONS.
15 1 HAVE A PERSONAL RULE THAT I APPLY TO THE
16 VARIOUS DESIGNS THAT I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR. WHEN SOMEONE
17 COMES TO ME AND SAYS, "HERE IS MY DESIGN, HERE IS WHAT IT
18 WILL DO," I SAY, "NOW TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOUR OTHER DESIGNS
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WORKED OUT. TELL ME THE RECORD OF EVERY ONE OF THE OTHER
UNITS YOU HAVE BUILT AND HOW THEIR ACTUAL OPERATIONS HAVE
COMPARED TO THE DESIGN OBJECTIVES." I THINK THIS WOULD BE
ONE THING WE SHOULD SURE ASK THE ORGANIZATIONS AFFILIATED
WITH MACAR10 OR THEIR ENGINEERS: "LET US GET A RECORD OF
YOUR DESIGN OBJECTIVES BEFORE YOU GET YOUR PERMISSION. ALL
THE VARIANCES, ALL THE ACCIDENTS, ALL THE SLIGHT DEVIATIONS
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THAT WERE PERMUTED AND THAT YOU ENCOUNTERED OVER THE LAST
TEN YEARS."
LET US THEN DISCOUNT EVERY CLAIM BY THAT MUCH
AND THEN BASE OUR DECISION ON THAT. NOT ON THE DESIGN
OBJECTIVES, BUT. ON THE PROJECTED ACTUAL OPERATION. 1 THINK
WE WILL.COME UP WITH A VERDICT THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY
IMPROVEMENT IN OUR AIR JUST BECAUSE OF THE REFINERY.
THANK YOU.
(APPLAUSE)
CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. IS THERE ANYONE
ELSE WHO HAS OR HAS NOT PUT IN A CARD WHO FEELS AN URGE TO
SPEAK TO US TONIGHT?
VERY WELL, THEN, 1 WILL SAY FOR MYSELF AND FOR
THE OTHERS ON THE PANEL HERE, FOR THE AGENCY, THAT IS HAS,
IN SPITE OF APPEARANCES, BEEN A PLEASURE FOR US TO COME
DOWN AND LISTEN TO YOU. WE DO TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY OUR
OBLIGATION TO CONSIDER THE PUBLIC INTEREST AND TO CONSIDER
THE PUBLIC DESIRES.
1 DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS GOING TO' BE.
A GREAT MANY PEOPLE WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE
21 j FINAL DECISION. ALL OF THE REMARKS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE
i
22 | WILL BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED. THE COMMENTS THAT WERE SENT
23 !N AHEAD OF TIME WILL BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED. WE ARE QUITE
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COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT DECISION NOT ONLY
FOR YOU BUT FOR US.
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1 I WILL SAY NOW FOR THE RECORD THAT WE WILL KEEP
2 THE RECORD OPEN FOR 30 DAYS FROM TODAY. THE CLOSE OF
3 BUSINESS OF THE 23RD OF SEPTEMBER, 1975. ALL REMARKS THAT
4 ARE SENT IN WILL BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE RECORD.
5 NOW, I WILL SAY THIS: WE GET A LOT OF MAIL UP
6 IN SAN FRANCISCO, SO IF YOU WILL IDENTIFY IT ON THE RECORD
7 AS HAVING TO DO WITH HE-124-- THAT WAS LISTED IN THE PUBLIC
8 NOTICE, HE-124-- IT'S EVEN MORE LIKELY TO GET TO THE RIGHT
9 FILE, THE RIGHT RECORD.
10 VERY WELL, THEN, IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY. I APPRE-
11 CIATE YOUR COURTESY AND YOUR KINDNESSES TODAY. I RECOGNIZE
12 ALL OF YOUR ENTHUSIASMS, AND THAT WILL, TOO, BE PERHAPS
13 NOTED NOT IN THE RECORD BUT WILL BE NOTED AMONG THOSE WHO
14 ARE HERE.
15 THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.
16 (APPLAUSE)
17 (THE HEARING WAS ADJOURNED AT 9:05 O'CLOCK P.M.)
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