ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY PUBLIC HEARING ON PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS AUGUST 23, 1975 CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA FlVECOAT, WITH and DUNN CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS SUITE 816 CHARTER OIL BUILDING 11O WEST "C" STREET SAN DIEOO CALIFORNIA 92101 PHONE 7M/239-4191 ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 PANEL MEMBERS: 7 MATTHEW S. WALKER HEARING OFFICER 8 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 9 FRANK M. COVINGTON DIRECTOR, AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION 10 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 11 STAN SWICKER ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER, AIR PROGRAMS BRANCH 12 AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN D E X EXHIBITS PAGE 1 FEDERAL REGISTER, PART II, DATED 3 5-14-75 2 APPLICATION FOR AUTHORITY TO CONSTRUCT <4 PERMIT BY MACARIO 3 LETTER FROM MACARIO TO EPA AND 5 ATTACHMENTS RE APPLICATION k EPA ASSESSMENT OF PROPOSED MACARIO 5 REFINERY 5 AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION 5 6 AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION . 5 7 PRESS RELEASE RE PUBLIC HEARING 5 DATED 7-25-75 8 LETTER FROM FEA TO EPA DATED 7-31-75 7 9 LETTER FROM PUC TO EPA DATED 7-31-75 7 10 PRESS RELEASE RE PUBLIC HEARING 7 DATED 7-25-75 11 NEWSPAPER ARTICLES 7 12 EPA ANALYSIS OF LOCAL AIR OUALITY 7 13 PRESS RELEASE RE PUBLIC HEARING 55 DATED 8-20-75 14 LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL STATEMENT 55 15 ALLAN 0. KELLY STATEMENT 55 16 DOCUMENT ENTITLED "REDUCTIONS IN 55 EMISSIONS THROUGH FUEL SWITCHING" 17 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE LEGAL STATEMENT 60 18 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE RESEARCH 78 19 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE RESOLUTION 81 • STATEMENT ------- 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 EXHIBITS 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 JOHN A. GRAY STATEMENT LETTER FROM APCD TO SDG5E DATED 2-28-75 JOAN JACKSON STATEMENT SIERRA CLUB STATEMENT NATURAL GAS BAR GRAPH SULPHUR-CONTENT CRUDE ANALYSIS PROCESS SCHEME CHART AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH OF PROPOSED SITE MAP OF PROPOSED SITE PRESS RELEASE RE MACARIO APPLICATION DATED 5-7-75 LEAGUE OF WOMAN VOTERS STATEMENT SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP STATEMENT POPPY DEMARCO STATEMENT DOCUMENT ENTITLED "GERANIUMS VS. SMOKESTACKS" CAROL LAW STATEMENT DOCUMENT ENTITLED "SIMULATION IN THE SERVICE OF SOCIETY" JEROME REHBERG (PACIFIC RESOURCES) STATEMENT GRAPHS MRS. GEORGE BROWNLEY STATEMENT PAGE 99 107 107 116 126 126 126 126 126 126 129 135 135 136 148 155 155 156 163 ------- 111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SPEAKERS PAGE ACKERMAN, TED 78 BEAN, BRUCE 24 BISHOP, RICHARD . 69 BONCER, LOIS l92 BOUTVETTE, DON 177 BROWNLEY, MRS. GEORGE 162 COLE, WILLIAM 117 COVINGTON, F. M. 10 DALCOFF, LARRY 195 DAWSON, CLARENCE 150 GRAY, JOHN 95 GUNTO, JOE 195 HASSAN, JIM 158 HASSAN, ROSE 1&9 JACKSON, GENE 163 JACKSON, GENE, JR. 191 JACKSON, JOAN 104, 194 JACKSON, MEGAN 18& JONES, GEORGE 38 KAPLAN, WILLIAM 99 KIMURA, EDWARD . 112 LAFFOON, C. M. 35 LAW, CAROL 134, 144 LOGSTON, DEE 64 ------- IV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SPEAKERS MACKETT, MARILYN MC GILL, JOHN MILLER, MICHAEL NELSON, MARK PRESCOTT, JOEL PR I ITEM, LOU RASH, L. W. REHBERG, JEROME RICE, JIM RICHARDSON, R. R. SCHULTZ, KEN SLOAN, JEAN SOMMERVILLE. RICHARD TROMBLEY, CHARLES VON HAD'EN, LLOYD VON HADEN," THELMA WALKER, MATTHEW WANKET, DUANA WILHELM, MARGARET WOLFF, HAROLD WCOLDRIDGE, OLIVE WORD EN, DWIGHT ZAMORA, VICKY "! PAGE I 26 I 84 I 88 I 70 156 I 58 I 30 I 07 1 90 60 20 I 29 39, 94 69 179 5 82 I I 48 143 I 20 I 35 56 75 ------- 1 SATURDAY MORNING SESSION 2 AUGUST 23, 1975, 9:30 A.M. 3 4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: GOOD MORNING. WE WOULD LIKE 5 TO GET THIS HEARING STARTED. MY NAME IS MATTHEW S. WALKER, 6 AND I HAVE BEEN DESIGNATED HEARING OFFICER FOR REGION 9 7 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, AND I WILL PRESIDE 8 AT THIS MEETING. 9 WITH ME ON THE DAIS TODAY IS MR. FRANK M. 10 COVINGTON, DIRECTOR, AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION, 11 REGION 9, AND MR. STAN SWICKER, ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEER, AIR P 12 GRAMS BRANCH, AIR AND HAZARDOUS MATERIALS DIVISION. J3 I WOULD LIKE TO SAY AT THIS TIME WE DO HAVE 14 REGISTRATION CARDS THAT ARE AVAILABLE FROM THE YOUNG LADY 15 ON MY RIGHT. IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A PRESENTATION, WE t6 WOULD REQUEST THAT YOU DO REGISTER. IF YOU ARE NOT GOING 17 TO MAKE A PRESENTATION, WE ALSO REQUEST THAT YOU REGISTER 18 BECAUSE WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW AS WELL AS POSSIBLE WHO IS 19 HERE. 20 THE PROCEEDINGS THIS MORNING WILL ROTATE AMONG 21 THE VARIOUS INTEREST GROUPS IN THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY HAVE 22 REGISTERED AND AS NEAR AS IT IS POSSIBLE FOR ME TO SEGREGATE 23 THEM. LATER ON WE WILL TAKE A SHORT RECESS FOR THE PURPOSES 24 OF THE COURT REPORTER, AND THERE WILL BE A QUEST 1ON-AND- 25 ANSWER SESSION OFF THE RECORD AFTER THE MID-MORNING RECESS. 0- ------- 1 THEN WE WILL GO BACK ON THE RECORD BECAUSE WE ARE MAKING A 2 VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF THIS HEARING. 3 THE RECORD IS BEING MADE BY MR. JERE L. WITH OF 4 THE FIRM OF FIVECOAT, WITH & DUNN. A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT 5 WILL BE AVAILABLE IN THE OFFICES OF REGION 9 AT 100 CALIFORNIA 6 STREET IN DUE COURSE. ANYONE WHO WISHES A COPY OF THE RECORD 7 SHOULD MAKE INDIVIDUAL ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE COURT REPORTER. 8 I WILL MAKE A STATEMENT OUTLINING THE PURPOSE OF 9 THIS HEARING AND GIVE SOME OF THE BACKGROUND AND INDICATE 10 WHY WE ARE HERE AND WHAT IT IS PROPOSED THAT WE SHOULD DO. 11 THEN MR. COV1NGTON WILL MAKE A STATEMENT OUTLINING THE 12 TECHNICAL PROBLEMS INVOLVED WITH THIS HEARING. AFTER THAT, 13 WE WILL HEAR FROM THE PUBLIC. H FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO EXPLAIN WHAT THIS 15 HEARING IS ALL ABOUT. THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY 16 HAS A VERY LIMITED ROLE TO PLAY IN THE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL 17 OF THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY. OUR SOLE PURPOSE HERE IS 18 TO DETERMINE WHETHER THE SOURCE WILL PREVENT OR INTERFERE 19 WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR 20 QUALITY STANDARDS IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. CONSIDERATIONS 21 OF LAND USE, PLANNING AND ZONING, COASTAL COMMISSION ARE ALL 22 COMMITTED TO OTHER AGENCIES. THIS IS OUR SOLE PURPOSE AND 23 OUR SOLE GROUNDS FOR DISCRETION. 24 THE CLEAN AIR ACT WAS SIGNED BY'THE PRESIDENT 25 AND BECAME LAW ON DECEMBER 31ST, 1970. THAT ACT WAS A ------- 1 COMPLETE REVISION OF ALL FEDERAL AIR POLLUTION LEGISLATION 2 UP UNTIL THEN. SECTION 110 OF THE ACT REOUIRES EACH STATE 3 TO SUBMIT TO THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTEC- 4 TION AGENCY A PLAN TO ACHIEVE AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS 5 WITHIN THREE YEARS AFTER THE PROMULGATION OF SUCH STANDARDS. 6 SUCH PLANS ARE REQUIRED TO INCLUDE A PROCEDURE FOR THE 7 REVIEW AT THE LOCATION OF NEW SOURCES TO WHICH STANDARDS OF 8 PERFORMANCE APPLY. THESE SOURCES INCLUDE PETROLEUM REFINERIES 9 IF A STATE DOES NOT HAVE SUCH A PROCEDURE, THEN THE 10 ADMINISTRATOR MUST, ACCORDING TO THE ACT, PROMULGATE n PROCEDURES WHEREBY EPA ITSELF WILL CONDUCT SUCH A REVIEW. 12 ON MAY 31ST, 1972, THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE EPA ,3 APPROVED THE CALIFORNIA STATE IMPLEMENTATION PLAN WITH ,4 CERTAIN EXCEPTIONS. ONE OF THE EXCEPTIONS TO THE APPROVAL 15 OF THE CALIFORNIA PLAN WAS THAT IT DID NOT CONTAIN THE 16 REGULATIONS REQUIRED FOR THE REVIEW PROCEDURE TO CONSTRUCTION 17 OF THE LOCATION OF NEW SOURCES FOR WHICH A STANDARD OF 18 PERFORMANCE WILL APPLY. THEREFORE, AFTER DUE CONSIDERATION, 19 THE ADMINISTRATOR PROMULGATED SUCH REGULATIONS ON MAY 14, 197: 20 AND WE WILL HAVE A COPY OF THOSE REGULATIONS MADE A PART 21 OF THIS RECORD AS EXHIBIT 1. 22 THESE REGULATIONS HAVE BEEN CODIFIED AND 23 PUBLISHED IN VOLUME 40 OF THE CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS 24 IN SECTION 52.233(6). THAT'S THE OFFICIAL PUBLICATION FOR 25 FEDERAL REGULATIONS. ------- 1 THE REGULATIONS REQUIRE THAT NO OWNER OR OPERATOR 2 SHALL COMMENCE CONSTRUCTION OR MODIFICATION AT ANY NEW SOURCE 3 AFTER THE 14TH OF MAY, 1973 WITHOUT FIRST OBTAINING APPROVAL 4 FROM THE ADMINISTRATOR OF THE LOCATION OF EACH SUCH SOURCE. 5 THE DISCRETION COMMITTED TO THE ADMINISTRATOR IS SET FORTH 6 IN THE REGULATION AND IS AS FOLLOWS: 7 "NO APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT OR MODIFY WILL BE 8 GRANTED UNLESS THE APPLICANT SHOWS TO THE SATISFACTION OF 9 THE ADMINISTRATOR THAT THE SOURCE WILL NOT PREVENT OR 10 INTERFERE WITH ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF ANY NATIONAL II STANDARD." 12 THAT IS OUR PURPOSE IN BEING HERE, IN ORDER 13 TO DISCHARGE THIS DUTY. 14 OFFICIALS OF REGION 9 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL 15 PROTECTION AGENCY HAVE ENGAGED IN A SOMEWHAT EXTENSIVE 16 SERIES OF MEETINGS. IN SEPTEMBER OF 1974, EPA MET WITH 17 REPRESENTATIVES OF THE MACARIO REFINERY, OFFICIALS OF THE 18 SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY FOR A PRELIMINARY MEETING 19 TO OUTLINE THE SCOPE OF THE PROPOSED PROJECT. 20 ON THE 14TH OF OCTOBER, 1974, REGION 9 RECEIVED 21 AN APPLICATION PURSUANT TO THE REGULATIONS SEEKING APPROVAL 22 OF THE PROJECT, AND THIS WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 2 FOR 23 THE PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING. THE STAFF OF EPA REGION 9 24 REVIEWED THE APPLICATION, DETERMINED THAT, AS SUBMITTED, IT 25 WAS INCOMPLETE, AND REQUESTED ADDITIONAL INFORMATION. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ON THE 9TH OF DECEMBER, 1974, ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WAS RECEIVED AS AN AMENDMENT TO' THE APPLICATION, AND THIS FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE HEARING WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 3. THE STAFF THEN COMMENCED A REVIEW OF THE APPLI- CATION TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IT MET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CLEAR AIR ACT AND THE REGULATIONS ADOPTED PURSUANT TO IT. ON THE 27TH OF MARCH, 1975, THIS YEAR, THE STAFF OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MET WITH THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT IN SAN DIEGO, WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE SAN DIEGO REGIONAL COAST COMMISSION. THE PROPOSED REFINERY WAS DISCUSSED AND REVIEWED WITH THESE PEOPLE TO GET FROM THEM THEIR FEELINGS AND COMMENTS FOR THE PURPOSE OF AIDING EPA IN ITS REVIEW. ON THE 7TH OF MAY, 1975, EPA PUBLISHED AN ASSESSMENT OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY PLAN, AND THIS COMMENCED A PERIOD OF OPEN PUBLIC COMMENT. THE ASSESSMENT WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 4 FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS HEARING. THE ASSESSMENT WAS PUBLISHED IN THE NEWSPAPER. AN AFFIDAVIT OF PUBLICATION TO THAT EFFECT WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBITS 5 AND 6. A PRESS RELEASE WAS ISSUED DESCRIBING THE EPA PRELIMINARY ASSESSMENT, AND THAT WAS ISSUED TO NEWSPAPERS IN TME VICINITY. A COPY OF THE PRESS RELEASE WILL FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 7. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SUBSEQUENTLY, THE STAFF OF REGION 9 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MET AGAIN IN SAN DIEGO WITH REPRESENTATIVES OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT AND THE CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD. AT THIS MEETING MORE INFORMATION WAS FURNISHED TO THE STAFF OF REGION 9. SUBSEQUENT TO THE PUBLICATION OF THE PROPOSED ASSESSMENT, THE REGIONAL STAFF RECEIVED ABOUT 150 LETTERS. THOSE LETTERS HAVE BEEN REVIEWED. THEY ARE HERE AVAILABLE FOR PERUSAL AND COMMENT, AND THEY WILL BE CONSIDERED AS PART OF THE FORMAL RECORD OF THIS HEARING, ALTHOUGH I'M NOT MARKING THEM AT THIS TIME. AS A RESULT OF THE INFORMATION RECEIVED AT ALL OF THESE MEETINGS WITH THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT, THE REGIONAL COASTAL COMMISSION, THE CALIFORNIA AIR RESOURCES BOARD, THE SAN DIEGO GAS g ELECTRIC COMPANY AND OTHERS, AND AS A RESULT OF THE MANY LETTERS THAT WERE RECEIVED AND SUBMITTED TO THE REGIONAL STAFF, IT WAS DETERMINED THAT EVEN THOUGH A PUBLIC HEARING IS NOT LEGALLY REQUIRED FOR THIS PURPOSE, IT WAS DESIRABLE TO HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING ON THIS ISSUE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY. LETTERS OF INQUIRY ON THIS SUBJECT WERE ALSO SENT TO THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION AND THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION REQUESTING INFORMATION FROM THEM AS TO THE EFFECT THIS REFINERY WILL HAVE ON THE SPECIAL ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ISSUES THAT ARE COMMITTED TO THEIR DISCRETION. ON THE 22ND OF JULY, 1975 A RESPONSE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATI ON, ' AND ON THE 31ST OF JULY A RESPONSE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION. THESE WILL BE MARKED IN ORDER EXHIBIT 8 AND EXHIBIT 9. ON THE 25TH OF JULY, 1975 A PRESS RELEASE WAS AGAIN SENT TO THE NEWSPAPERS IN THE VICINITY AND TO ALL CITIZENS WHO HAD SUBMITTED COMMENTS. A COPY OF THIS PRESS RELEASE WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 10. AND A COPY OF SOME OF THE PRESS COMMENTS THAT OCCURRED AS A RESULT OF THAT I HAVE HERE IN THREE PAGES, AND THAT WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 11. NOW, 'IN ORDER TO HEAR FROM ALL MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT OF THIS PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY, THIS PUBLIC HEARING HAS BEEN SCHEDULED. NOTICES WERE PUBLISHED IN JULY OF 1975 AND ON AUGUST 14TH, 1975 AND ON AUGUST 21ST, 1975 IN THE LOCAL NEWSPAPERS. COPIES OF THESE NOTICES WILL BE INSERTED IN THE RECORD FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING. NOW, AS I SAID, THERE IS NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT EITHER BY STATUTE OR REQUIREMENT THAT REGION 9 OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING ON THE ISSUE OF THE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL OF THE APPLICATION OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY. HOWEVER, IT IS THE POLICY OF THE ------- 1 AGENCY TO SEEK PUBLIC PARTICIPATION IN ITS WORK AND TO INVITE 2 PUBLIC COMMENTS. THIS HEARING IS BEING HELD FOR THAT PURPOSE 3 WE DO HAVE A VERY LIMITED ROLE TO PLAY. THE ONLY FUNCTION 4 THAT WE HAVE IS TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE PROPOSED 5 REFINERY WILL PREVENT OR INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR 6 MAINTENANCE OF THE NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS. 7 MR. COVINGTON WILL DESCRIBE TO YOU WHAT A 8 NATIONAL AIR QUALITY STANDARD IS, WHAT THE STANDARDS ARE FOR 9 THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. HE WILL ALSO DESCRIBE HOW THE 10 AGENCY WENT ABOUT PERFORMING A PROPOSED APPROVAL OF THE II APPLICATION AND THE STANDRADS USED FOR REACHING THAT 12 PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION. 13 NOW, IN ORDER TO BE AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE TO 14 ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO MAY WISH TO SPEAK HERE TODAY, WE HAVE 15 A PROCEDURE AS TO THE ORDER IN WHICH THOSE WISHING TO SPEAK 16 WILL BE HEARD. FIRST, WE WILL HEAR FROM THE ELECTED OFFICIAL 17 I HAVE SOME CARDS AT THE DESK HERE, AND SO FAR I DO NOT HAVE 18 A REGISTRATION CARD FROM ANY ELECTED OFFICIALS. ARE THERE 19 ANY HERE WHO WISH TO SPEAK? 20 . I OBSERVE NONE. 21 THEN WE WILL HEAR FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF FIVE 22 OTHER GROUPS AS NEARLY AS POSSIBLE IN THE ORDER IN WHICH 23 THEY HAVE REGISTERED. THE FIRST GROUP WILL BE THE 24 UNAPFILIATED PRIVATE CITIZENS. THEN WHEN WE HAVE HEARD FROM 25 ONE OF THAT GROUP WE WILL HEAR FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF A ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PUBLIC AGENCY, AND THEN FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS, THEN FROM A REPRESENTATIVE OF BUSINESS OR INDUSTRIAL COUNCIL, AND FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF OTHER GROUPS NOT DESCRIBED ABOVE. I WILL TRY TO CALL UPON ONE FROM EACH OF THESE GROUPS IN THE ORDER OF THEIR REGISTRATION IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. IF IT APPEARS--AND IT DOES--THAT THERE IS A LARGE NUMBER FROM A PARTICULAR GROUP, MORE THAN ONE MAY BE CALLED FROM THAT GROUP BEFORE GOING ON TO THE NEXT. THESE PROCEEDINGS, AS I SAID, ARE BEING REPORTED AND WILL BE TRANSCRIBED. IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED IF YOU WOULD USE THE PODIUM FOR MAKING YOUR REMARKS IN ORDER TO HAVE A COMPLETE RECORD AND TO KNOW WHO IS SPEAKING SO THAT YOUR NAME WILL GET IN THE RECORD AND YOUR REMARKS ACCURATELY REPORTED. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU USE THE PODIUM IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. ANYONE WHO HAS A WRITTEN.OR PREPARED STATEMENT NEED NOT READ IT AT LENGTH. WE WILL READ ALL OF 'THE STATEMENTS THAT ARE SUBMITTED TO US. THEY WLLL BE AS MUCH A PART OF THE RECORD AS IF YOU HAD READ THEM AT LENGTH. WE WILL TAKE A RECESS DURING THE MID-MORNING. AND AFTER THAT WE WILL TAKE A QUEST 1ON-AND-ANSWER PERIOD. WE WILL TAKE A RECESS AT THE LUNCH HOUR. WE WILL RECONVENE THIS AFTERNOON AT 1:30 AND AGAIN AT 7:30. THERE WILL BE CONTINUATIONS OF THIS HEARING, AND ALL OF THE PRELIMINARY REMARKS WILL NOT BE MADE. SO, IT IS NOT NECESSARY IF YOU ------- in 1 HAVE BEEN AT THE MORNING MEETING TO COME TO ALL OF THE OTHERS 2 UNLESS YOU WISH TO DO SO. 3 IT WILL BE APPRECIATED IF EXTENSIVE REMARKS 4 COULD BE REDUCED TO WRITING RATHER THAN READ VERBATIM ALOUD. 5 I WOULD ALSO APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD REFRAIN FROM BEING 6 UNDULY REPETITIVE. IF SOMEBODY ELSE HAS SAID. WHAT YOU'RE 7 GOING TO SAY, AND YOU'RE SAT ISFI ED WI TH HIS STATEMENT OF IT, 8 IT'S PERFECTLY SATISFACTORY IF YOU STAND UP AND SAY YOU 9 AGREE WITH WHATEVER WAS SAID BEFORE YOU. IT WILL SAVE YOUR JO TIME AND OURS AND THE PATIENCE OF EVERYBODY INVOLVED. 11 1 WILL NOW. CALL ON MR. COV1NGTON FOR A STATEMENT 12 AND THE BACKGROUND OF THE BASIS OF THE SUBJECT MATTER OF i 13 THIS HEARING AND THE APPRAISMENT OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY. H MR. COVINGTON: GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND 15 GENTLEMEN. 16 AS AN INTRODUCTION ON THE TECHNICAL SIDE OF IT, 17 I THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE FOR US TO -- I WAS GOING TO 18 DESCRIBE THE EPA'S ROLE, AND I'LL SKIP THAT. 19 TWO, IDENTIFY THE PERTINENT ISSUES WHICH WERE 20 RAISED DURING THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION OF THIS PROJECT; 21 THIRD, TO DETAIL THE PROCEDURES INVOLVED IN THE REVIPW 22 PROCESS; NEXT, TO DISCUSS THE APPROACH TAKEN BY EPA; AND, 23 FINALLY, TO LIST THE RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS OF OUR STUDIES 24 AS THEY RELATE TO THE AIR QUALITY AND PROPOSED CONSTRUCTION 25 OF THE REFINERY. ------- 11 ~l 1 I WILL MAKE MENTION OF THE FACT ONLY BRIEFLY IN 2 PASSING THAT OUR ROLE AS A FEDERAL REGULATORY AGENCY WAS TO 3 HAVE ESTABLISHED NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS 4 WHICH ARE AIMED AT THE PROTECTION OF THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND 5 WELFARE, AND THIS HAS BEEN DONE, AND WE HAVE IN THE CONTEXT 6 OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY EXAMINED THE EMISSIONS FROM THE 7 REFINERY. 8 STATE AND LOCAL AGENCIES ARE REQUIRED TO DEVELOP 9 ACCEPTABLE PLANS FOR ACHIEVING AND MAINTAINING THESE STANDARDS 10 AND TO SUBMIT THEM TO EPA FOR APPROVAL. IN SOME INSTANCES 11 A PORTION OF THOSE PLANS THUS FAR SUBMITTED TO EPA HAVE 12 BEEN INADEQUATE AND WERE SUBSEQUENTLY DISAPPROVED BY EPA. 13 WHEN THESE DISAPPROVALS OCCURRED, EPA WAS REQUIRED TO 14 PREPARE AND IMPLEMENT A SUBSTITUTE PLAN. IT'S EXACTLY THAT 15 SITUATION WHICH EXISTS TODAY, WHERE EPA HAS HAD TO SUBSTITUTE 16 ITS REGULATIONS FOR THE REVIEW OF NEW SOURCES OF AIR 17 POLLUTION IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. 18 NOW, EPA NEW SOURCE REVIEW REGULATIONS REQUIRE 19 THAT ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CONSTRUCT A NEW SOURCE OF AIR 20 POLLUTION MUST OBTAIN APPROVAL PRIOR TO BEGINNING CONSTRUC- 21 TION. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE APPLICANT TO 22 DEMONSTRATE TO EPA THAT THEIR PROJECT WILL NOT PREVENT OR 23 INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF THE NATIONAL 24 STANDARDS. IN THIS REGARD, MACARIO SUBMITTED ITS APPLICATION, 25 AS WE HAVE OUTLINED; AND ON THE BASIS OF THE DATA THAT THEY ------- 12 V 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 HAVE PROVIDED, CONDUCTED OUR PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS. REGULA- TIONS REQUIRE EPA TO PREPARE AN ANALYSIS OF THE EFFECT OF SUCH CONSTRUCTION ON THE AMBIENT AIR QUALITY, AND TO PROPOSE APPROVAL OR DISAPPROVAL BASED ON THAT ANALYSIS. THE ANALYSIS AND PROPOSED ACTIONS ARE THEN MADE AVAILABLE TO PUBLIC COMMENT, AND WE HAVE RECITED THE SEQUENCE IN SUBSTANTIAL DETAIL AS TO HOW THAT PROCEDURE WAS CARRIED OUT. AT THIS POINT WE ARE CONDUCTING A HEARING BECAUSE, AS A MATTER OF POLICY, EPA MAKES EVERY REASONABLE EFFORT TO OBTAIN SUBSTANTIVE CITIZEN INPUT 'TO AID IN OUR DECISION-MAKING. 1 THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO CALL YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT EPA ALSO HAS MAJOR RESPONSIBILITIES FOR THE PREVENTION OF SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION OF AIR QUALITY. EPA REGULATIONS REQUIRE THAT CERTAIN AIR QUALITY EFFECTS BE LIMITED TO A FIXED AMOUNT OR INCREMENT. UNDER THESE REGULATIONS, WHERE IT IS DEMONSTRATED THAT A PROPOSED PROJECT WILL NOT VIOLATE THE AIR QUALITY INCREMENT, APPROVAL WILL ALSO BE GRANTED. IN ORDER TO PROPERLY IDENTIFY THE ISSUES RAISED BY THE PROJECT, A BRIEF REVIEW OF THE RELEVENT PORTIONS OF THE CONTROL STRATEGIES FOR THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION 1 THINK IS IN ORDER. YOU'RE NOT HEARING US BACK THERE? ALL RIGHT. IS THIS BETTER, IF 1 GET A LITTLE CLOSER? A VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF THE STRATEGY FOR ------- 13 1 ATTAINING AND MAINTAINING STANDARDS IN THIS LOCALITY IS IN 2 PART BASED ON THE USE OF CLEAN FUELS. BY THAT I MEAN 3 NATURAL GAS AND LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, AND SPECIFICALLY LESS 4 THAN .5 PERCENT SULPHUR CONTENT, WHEREVER THAT'S POSSIBLE. 5 THE GROWING UNAVAILABILITY OF ADEQUATE QUANTITIES 6 OF THESE FUELS WILL HAVE AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON AIR QUALITY. 7 FOR EXAMPLE, THE USE OF FUEL OIL IN PLACE OF NATURAL GAS 8 WILL RESULT IN SIGNIFICANT INCREASES IN EMISSIONS OF OXIDES 9 OF NITROGEN, SULPHUR DIOXIDE, HYDROCARBONS, AND PARTICULATE 10 MATTER. THE UNAVAILABILITY OF LOW-SULPHUR CONTENT OIL WILL 11 RESULT IN EVEN MORE SULPHUR DIOXIDE EMISSIONS TO THE ATMOS- 12 PHERE. DATA OBTAINED BOTH FROM THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINIS- 13 TRAT10N AND THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES SEEM TO'PROVIDE AMPLE 14 EVIDENCE THAT THESE NECESSARY FUELS ARE NOW AND WILL CONTINUE 15 TO BE IN VERY SHORT SUPPLY IN CALIFORNIA AS WELL AS ELSEWHERE 16 IN THE NATION. 17 COMPLICATING THE PROBLEM OF SHORTAGES IN CLEAN 18 FUELS IS THE ISSUE OF FUELS ALLOCATION. THERE I-S A QUESTION 19 AS TO WHETHER THE CLEAN FUELS PRODUCED AT MACARIO WILL BE 20 USED IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY AND, THEREFORE, HAVE A BENEFICIAL 21 EFFECT.ON THE AIR QUALITY IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY 22 CONTROL REGION. THE ALLOCATION OF CLEAN FUELS, HOWEVER, 23 IS.BEYOND THE SCOPE OF EPA'S SPECIFIC AUTHORITIES. WE ARE, 24 AS'A FEDERAL AGENCY, HOWEVER, WORKING CLOSELY WITH THE 25 FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION AND THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES ------- 1 COMMISSION, BOTH OF WHOM DO HAVE ALLOCATION AUTHORITY TO 2 INSURE THAT ANY ASSUMPTIONS MADE IN OUR ANALYSES CONCERNING 3 THE MARKETING OF CLEAN FUELS PRODUCED AT THE REFINERY ARE 4 VALID. 5 SINCE THESE TWO ISSUES--THAT IS, FIRST, THE 6 NEED FOR THE REFINERY IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CONTROL STRATEGY 7 HERE AND, SECOND, THE FUELS ALLOCATION MATTER--ARE CRITICAL 8 TO OUR ANALYSES, WE ARE PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN RECEIVING 9 TESTIMONY ON THESE SUBJECTS. 10 A NUMBER OF OTHER ISSUES HAVE BEEN RAISED II REGARDING OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL ASPECTS OR POTENTIAL EFFECTS 12 OF THE PROJECT. THESE INCLUDE SUCH REAL CONCERNS AS 13 POTENTIAL OIL SPl'LLS, NOISE POLLUTION, AESTHETICS, AND THE H EFFECTS ON FUTURE GROWTH. NOW, THE EPA HAS CONCERN WITH AND 15 HAS AUTHORITY PERTAINING TO SEVERAL OF THESE ISSUES. 16 HOWEVER, THESE MATTERS IN MANY CASES -- OR IN ALL CASES 17 ARE GOING TO BE ADDRESSED TO OTHER FEDERAL, STATE, OR LOCAL 18 DECISION-MAKING PROCESSES. 19 THE PURPOSE OF THIS HEARING, AS HAS BEEN STATED 20 BY MR. WALKER TODAY, RELATES SOLELY TO THE PURPOSE OF 21 DETERMINING THE AIR QUALITY ASPECTS OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY. 22 THE APPROACH TAKEN TO ANALYZE THE AIR QUALITY 23 EFFECTS OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY CONSISTED OF TWO PARTS. 24 THE FIRST WAS CONCERNED WITH THE REGION-WIDE IMPACT OF THE 25 PROJECT, AND THE SECOND EXAMINED THE LOCALIZED EFFECT IN THE ------- 15 1 1 CARLSBAD AREA. EVALUATIONS WERE MADE TO DETERMINE THE AIR 2 QUALITY EFFECT IN THE INCREASES OF THE EMISSIONS OF HYDRO- 3 CARBONS, SOX, CARBONMONOXIDE, AND OXIDES OF NITROGEN AND 4 PART!CULATES. ALTHOUGH ALL INCREASES IN EMISSION ARE OF 5 CONCERN, THE ONLY POLLUTANT WHICH SEEMED TO RAISE A QUESTION 6 AS TO THE POSSIBLE INTERFERENCE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR 7 MAINTENANCE OF THE STANDARD WAS HYDROCARBONS, THIS POLLUTANT 8 IS OF CONCERN BECAUSE HYDROCARBON IS A PRIME CONSTITUENT 9 IN THE FORMATION OF OXIDANTS, AND THERE ARE FREQUENT 10 VIOLATIONS IN THE OXIDANT STANDARD IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR 1! QUALITY CONTROL REGION. ANY INCREASE IN HYDROCARBON 12' EMISSIONS WOULD INTERFERE WITH THE MAINTENANCE OF THE OXIDANT 13 STANDARD UNLESS THESE INCREASES WERE ACCOMPANIED BY APPRO- 14 PRIATE CORRESPONDING HYDROCARBON REDUCTIONS. WE HAVE 15 CONCLUDED IN THIS CASE THAT.HYDROCARBON EMISSIONS ARE 16 EXPECTED TO BE LESS THAN THOSE EXPECTED TO OCCUR WITHOUT H THE AVAILABILITY OF CLEAN FUELS. THIS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT 18 IN OUR ANALYSES WHICH HAVE BEEN MADE AVAILABLE. 19 NOW, THE MACARIO REFINERY SITUATION HAS SOME 20 UNIQUE FEATURES WHICH WERE CONSIDERED IN THE TOTAL ANALYSES. 21 FIRST, THE PRIME PURPOSE OF THE REFINERY IS 'TO PRODUCE LOW- 22 SULPHUR FUEL OILS FOR USE PRIMARILY BY SAN DIEGO GAS 5 23 ELECTRIC WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AREA. WITHOUT THIS FUEL, IT 24 IS HIGHLY PROBABLE THAT THERE WILL NOT BE SUFFICIENT LOW- 25 SULPHUR FUELS AVAILABLE TO MEET THE SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC ------- 16 1 FUEL DEMANDS FOR 1978. IF THIS TURNS OUT TO 'BE THE CASE, 2 THEN THE ONLY AVAILABLE FUEL FOR MEETING THE DEMANDS WILL 3 ESSENTIALLY BE A HIGHER-SULPHUR-CONTENT OIL. A LARGE-SCALE 4 SWITCH TO HiGH-SULPHUR-CONTENT OIL WILL SERIOUSLY JEOPARDIZE 5 THE MAINTENANCE OF THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE AIR QUALITY STANDARDS. 6 SECOND, AND EVEN MORE RELEVANT TO THE AIR QUALITY 7 ISSUE; is THE REFINERY'S PROPOSED PRODUCTION OF SYNTHETIC 8 NATURAL GAS. THE SNG PRODUCED IS EXPECTED TO BE UTILIZED AS 9 A REPLACEMENT FUEL AT FACILITIES WHERE NATURAL GAS CURTAILMEN1 10 WILL OCCUR. 11 LATEST STATE PUBLIC UTILITY COMMISSION DATA 12 INDICATE THAT A COMPLETE CURTAILMENT FOR NATURAL GAS FOR 13 ALL THE FIRM--AND BY "FIRM/1 I MEAN NON-INTERRUPTABLE H CUSTOMERS, SUCH AS IN YOUR HOMES--BY 1979. FURTHER, AN FEA 15 REPORT ON THE IMPACT OF THESE CURTAILMENTS INDICATES A 16 LARGE SHORTFALL IN MIDDLE DISTILLATE OIL, WHICH IS THE 17 REPLACEMENT FUEL FOR NATURAL GAS. THESE SHORTAGES WILL HAVE 18 AN ADVERSE EFFECT ON A]R QUALITY BY SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASING 19 EMISSIONS FROM ALL ALTERNATIVE FUEL CONSUMPTION. 20 WE CONSIDERED THESE FACTORS IN CONDUCTING THAT 21 PORTION OF THE ANALYSIS DEALING WITH THE REGIONAL EFFECT. 22 WE ASSUMED FULL UTILIZATION OF ALL MACARIO PRODUCTS WOULD 23 BE WITHIN SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION TO MAKE UP 24 THE PROJECTED FUEL SHORTAGES. AS INDICATED IN OUR MAY 7TH, 25 1975 ANALYSIS, THE USE OF THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS PRODUCED ------- 17 1 BY MACAR10, WHICH IS -- WHAT IS IT? A HUNDRED MILLION? 2 CUBIC FEET PER DAY IN LIEU OF THE ALTERNATIVE FUELS HAS A 3 BENEFICIAL EFFECT ON AIR QUALITY. SINCE THE PROJECTED 4 CURTAILMENT FOR 1978 WAS ESTIMATED TO BE TWENTY-NINE AND A 5 HALF MILLION CUBIC FEET PER DAY, OUR ANALYSIS ASSUMED THAT j I 6 THE ADDITIONAL 71.5, THE BALANCE, WOULD BE UTILIZED FOR 7 OTHER PURPOSES WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL 8 REGION. HOWEVER, THIS WAS DONE PRIMARILY TO SIMPLIFY THE 9 ANALYSIS. COMPARABLE RESULTS FROM AN AIR QUALITY STANDARD 10 POINT WOULD BE REALIZED IF SYNTHETIC GAS WERE MADE AVAILABLE I] ONLY TO THE EXTENT OF THE PREDICTED CURTAILMENT. 12 THE ISSUE THEN BECOMES ONE OF ASSURING THAT ANY 13 REALLOCATION OF MACARIO SNG OUT OF SAN DIEGO DOES NOT EXCEED 14 THAT THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN AIR QUALITY STANDARDS. 15 NOW, ONE OF THE MORE SIGNIFICANT CONCERNS RAISED 16 IN RESPONSE TO OUR MAY 7TH ASSESSMENT WAS THE EFFECTS OF 17 THE REFfNERY ON THE LOCAL AIR QUALITY AND WHAT THE COMBINED 18 EFFECT OF THE REFINERY AND THE ENCINA POWER PLANT WOULD BE. 19 BECAUSE OF THESE CONCERNS, WE UNDERTOOK FURTHER STUDIES AND 20 PERFORMED AIR QUALITY MODELING ANALYSES TO DETERMINE THE 21 EFFECTS. THE RESULTS OF THESE STUDIES AND ANALYSES ARE 22 BEING MADE A PART OF THE RECORD AMD ARE AVAILABLE FOR 23 PUBLIC COMMENT. ' ' 24 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL MARK THIS ONE 25 EXHIBIT 12. ------- 1 MR. COVINGTON: THE MAJOR POLLUTANT FROM THE 2 REFINERY IS 502. THEREFORE, STUDIES AND MODELING WERE 3 CONDUCTED FOR THIS POLLUTANT. MODELING RUNS WERE MADE FOR 4 A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES AND CONFIGURATIONS. 5 RESULTS OF ALL THE STUDIES INDICATED THAT THERE WILL BE NO 6 LOCALIZED VIOLATIONS OF AIR QUALITY STANDARDS FOR SOX, NOR 7 WILL THE AIR QUALITY INCREMENT, AS DEFINED IN EPA'S 8 REGULATIONS FOR SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATI ON, BE EXCEEDED. 9 NOW, 1 RECOGNIZE THAT WHAT I HAVE JUST GONE 10 THROUGH IS LABORIOUS, IT'S TECHNICAL, IT'S DIFFICULT 11 PERHAPS IN UNDERSTANDING JUST SITTING HERE HEARING IT FOR 12 THE FIRST TIME. RECOGNIZING THIS, AS MR. WALKER SAID, WE 13 WILL RECEIVE TESTIMONY FROM THOSE WERE ARE PREPARED TO GIVE 14 IT NOW, AND WE WILL ULTIMATELY TAKE A BREAK. I HAVE BROUGHT ]5 MY TECHNICAL STAFF WITH ME. WE WILL GO OFF THE RECORD, AND 16 WE WILL DO OUR VERY BEST LATER IN THE MORNING TO TRY TO 17 ANSWER QUESTIONS WHICH MAY VERY WELL BE ON YOUR MIND: 18 "WHAT ASSUMPTIONS? HOW DID YOU DO IT?" AND SO FORTH. 19 BASED UPON TH'E RESULTS OF THE ANALYSES AND THE 20 'ACCOMPANYING ASSUMPTIONS, WE HAVE MADE THE FOLLOWING 21 CONCLUSIONS : 22 FIRST, THE EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY WILL NOT 23 PREVENT OR INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT OR MAINTENANCE OF 24 ANY NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARD EITHER LOCALLY OR 25 REGIONALLY. ------- 19 1 SECOND, THE EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY WILL 2 NOT RESULT IN A DETERIORATION OF THE EXISTING AIR QUALITY 3 AS DEFINED IN THE EPA REGULATION FOR SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATI 4 OUR RECOMMENDED ACTION, BASED ON THESE CONCLU- 5 SIONS, IS TO ISSUE AN APPROVAL TO CONSTRUCT THE MACAR10 6 REFINERY. THE APPROVAL WOULD BE SUBJECT TO CONDITIONS WHOSE 7 PURPOSE WOULD BE TO INSURE THAT OPERATIONS AT THE REFINERY 8 WILL NOT CAUSE AIR QUALITY VIOLATIONS. TYPICAL TECHNICAL 9 CONDITIONS WHICH WOULD BE INCLUDED ARE COMPLIANCE. WITH 10 STATE .AND LOCAL AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS AND A CONTINGENCY 11 OR SHUT DOWN SITUATION DURING ADVERSE CONDITIONS. STANDARD 12 CONDITIONS WHICH ARE TYPICALLY INCLUDED IN ALL PERMITS 13 GRANTED BY EPA UNDER THESE REGULATIONS REQUIRE RECORD H KEEPING, NOTIFICATIONS, AND RIGHT OF ACCESS TO INSPECT THE 15 FACILITY AND SO FORTH. FAILURE TO ABIDE BY ANY CONDITION 16 OF OUR APPROVAL WOULD SUBJECT THE COMPANY TO APPROPRIATE 17 ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS AS OUTLINED IN THE CLEAN -AIR ACT. 18 THE GRANTING OF AN APPROVAL BY EPA ON THE BASIS 19 OF THE AIR QUALITY EFFECT DOES NOT INFER APPROVAL AS TO 20 ANY OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS. MACAR10 MUST STILL HAVE 21 APPROVAL FROM THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT 22 REGARDING THEIR FACILITIES AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPROVED 23 PORTIONS OF THE STATE IMPLEMENTATION PLAN, AND ALL OTHER 24 LOCAL REGULATIONS. APPROVALS ALSO MUST BE OBTAINED FROM 25 OTHER AGENCIES SUCH AS THE COASTAL ZONE COMMISSION, THE ------- 20 '" n 1 REGIONAL WATER QUALITY BOARD, AND SO FORTH TO THE EXTENT 2 OF THEIR AUTHORITY, AS WELL AS THE APPROPRIATE LOCAL ZONING 3 REQUIREMENTS. 4 WE ARE SEEKING YOUR INPUT ON THESE CONCLUSIONS 5 AND PROPOSED ACTION AT TODAY'S HEARING, AND IN WRITING, IF 6 YOU DESIRE. WE WILL BE KEEPING THE RECORD OPEN FOR THE 7 NEXT 30 DAYS. ALL COMMENTS RECEIVED WILL BE CONSIDERED 8 BEFORE MAKING OUR FINAL DECISION. 9 THANK -YOU FOR BEARING WITH US THROUGH THIS LONG 10 EXPLANATION. I HOPE YOU'RE STILL WITH US. 11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. 12 WE ALL APOLOGIZE FOR THE NECESSITY OF HAVING TO MAKE A LONG 13 PRELIMINARY EXPLANATION. AFTER ALL, WE DID COME HERE TO 14 HEAR YOU, NOT FOR YOU TO HEAR US. 15 1 WILL NOW CALL ON MR. KEN SCHULTZ, LEUCADIA 16 TOWN COUNCIL. 17 MR. SCHULTZ: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. WALKER. 18 GOOD MORNING. 19 THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL IS A CIVIC ORGANIZATION 20 DEDICATED TO COMMUNITY IMPROVEMENT IN LEUCADIA, THE TOWN 21 IMMEDIATELY SOUTH OF THE SITE OF THE PROPOSED MACARIO 22 REFINERY. I AM PRESIDENT OF THAT TOWN COUNCIL. WE ARE 23 QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL IMPACTS OF THE PROPOSED 24 REFINERY ON LEUCADIA, AND I WOULD LIKE TO RAISE SOME POINTS 25 CONCERNING THAT THIS MORNING. ------- 21 1 IN YOUR TENTATIVE PROPOSAL TO APPROVE' THE 2 REFINERY, YOU CITED FOUR REASONS FOR THIS APPROVAL. WE ARE 3 CONCERNED THAT ALL THE DATA MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED, 4 AND WOULD LIKE TO RAISE SOME POINTS CONCERNING THESE 5 CONCLUSIONS. 6 THE FIRST REASON CITED IS THAT THE NEW EMISSIONS 7 OF CARBON MOM I XIDE, NITROGEN OXIDE, AND SULPHUR DIOXIDE WILL 8 NOT PREVENT MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY 9 STANDARDS IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION. THE 10 DATA SUBMITTED BY MACARIO SEEM TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS FOR 1J THE REFINERY, BUT NO MENTION IS MADE OF OTHER SOURCES 12 ASSOCIATED WITH THE REFINERY. THE REFINERY WILL LEAD TO .A 13 HOST OF OTHER CHEMICAL INDUSTRIES USING REFINERY PRODUCTS 14 AND BY-PRODUCTS. MOST OF THESE WILL LOCATE AT THE ADJACENT 15 PROPOSED JAPATUL INDUSTRIAL PARK, WH1 Chi IS OWED BY SAN DIEGO 16 GAS £ ELECTRIC RIGHT ADJACENT TO THE REFINERY SITE. WE ARE .17 CONCERNED THAT THE ADDITIVE EFFECTS FROM POLLUTANTS FROM 18 THESE INDUSTRIES WERE NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THESE 19 CONCLUSIONS WERE DRAWN, AND FEEL THESE EFFECTS MUST INDEED 20 BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT. 21 THE SECOND REASON CITED FOR TENTATIVE APPROVAL 22 WAS THAT THE AIR QUALITY WOULD BE BETTER, EVEN INCLUDING 23 THE 14 TONS PER DAY OF EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY IF 24 EXISTING INDUSTRY USED LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL FROM THE REFINERY 25 THAN IF THEY USED HIGH-SULPHUR FUEL OIL. THIS WOULD APPEAR ------- 22 1 TO ONLY BE THE CASE IF THE PRODUCTS OF THE REFINERY WERE 2 ONLY USED WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. AND YOU MENTIONED 3 IN YOUR PREAMBLE HERE THIS MORNING THAT YOU HAVE NO MEANS 4 OF ENFORCING THIS USE. IF GUARANTEES ARE NOT OBTAINED THAT 5 THE REFINERY PRODUCTS WOULD BE USED IN THE SAN DIEGO. AIR 6 QUALITY AREA, THEN IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THE REFINERY WOULD 7 DEFINITELY INCREASE AIR POLLUTION IN THIS AREA. 8 . THE THIRD REASON GIVEN IS THAT THE CARLSBAD 9 REFINERY IS NEEDED TO PROVIDE LOW-SULPHUR OIL TO THIS 10 REGION. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THIS PROPOSED -- THERE ARE 11 REALLY ONLY TWO OPTIONS. FIRST IS THE USE OF LOW-SULPHUR 12 OIL REFINED AT THE CARLSBAD REFINERY, OR THE USE OF HIGH- 13 SULPHUR FUEL OIL. IN FACT, I WOULD THINK THERE IS A THIRD 14 OPTION: THAT IS, THE USE OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL REFINED 15 ELSEWHERE. 16 WE ARE TOLD BY MOVING THE PROPOSED REFINERY 17 SOMEWHAT DIRECTLY TO THE EAST WE COULD GET IT UP OUT OF THE '18 SAN DIE-GO COASTAL AIR BASIN, WHICH HAS FREQUENT INVERSIONS, 19 WHICH WOULD THEN MITIGATE SEVERAL OF THE AIR POLLUTION 20 IMPACTS OF THE REFINERY. WE ARE CONCERNED THAT THE LOCATION 21 OF THE REFINERY PERHAPS IN THE SAN DIEGO BUT OUT OF THE 22 COASTAL AIR BASIN WAS NOT CONSIDERED, AND FEEL IT SHOULD BE 23 AS AN OPTION. 24 THE FOURTH AND FINAL REASON GIVEN FOR TENTATIVE 25 APPROVAL OF THE REFINERY WAS, AGAIN, THAT THE PROJECT WOULD ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 23 NOT PREVENT MAINTENANCE OF NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY I S STANDARDS IN THE AREA, AND WE ARE CONCERNED THAT ALL THE j IMPACTS OF THIS PROJECT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED. WAS CONSIDERATION GIVEN, FOR EXAMPLE, TO THE EMISSIONS FROM THE WORKERS' VEHICLES, THE MATERIAL TRANSPORT ASSOCIATED WITH THE REFINERY AND ITS SURROUNDING PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES AND WERE INCREASED EMISSIONS FROM THE INCREASED INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT THAT THE REFINERY WOULD DRAW TAKEN INTO CONSI- DERATION? WE FEEL THAT ALL ASPECTS MUST BE INCLUDED AND NOT JUST THOSE THINGS COMING DIRECTLY OUT OF THE REFINERY STACKS. THE TOWN COUNCIL IS QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE •CONSEQUENCES OF APPROVAL OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY. WE WOULD APPRECIATE YOUR CONSIDERATION AND RESPONSE TO THESE POINTS AND QUESTIONS WE HAVE RAISED. THANK YOU. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. SCHULTZ. (APPLAUSE) MR. SCHULTZ, MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME QUESTIONS IF YOU WOULD REMAIN AT THE PODIUM FOR A MINUTE. MR. SCHULTZ: THANK YOU. MR. COVINGTON: MR. SCHULTZ, CAN YOU GIVE us A LITTLE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION? CAN YOU TELL ME AGAIN: IS THE INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT WE'RE CONCERNED WITH WITHIN YOUR CITY LIMITS, OR IS THAT SOME -- MR. SCHULTZ: LEUCADIA IS.NOT AN INCORPORATED ------- 1 AREA. WE ARE AN UNINCORPORATED TOWN WITHIN THE CITY OF 2 SAN DIEGO. WE ARE THE CLOSEST COMMUNITY TO THE REFINERY 3 WITH THE EXCEPTION OF CARLSBAD, WHICH I BELIEVE SURROUNDS 4 THE INCORPORATED AREA THAT THE REFINERY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN. 5 MR. COVINGTON: ALL RIGHT. IS THE INDUSTRIAL 6 PARK AREA THAT YOU REFERRED TO IN AN UNINCORPORATED PORTION 7 OF THE COUNTY? 8 MR. SCHULTZ: YES, THAT IS CORRECT. 9 MR. COVINGTON: AND, THEREFORE, SUBJECT TO THEIR 10 ZONING AND GENERAL PLAN? I] MR. SCHULTZ: TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE. 12 MR. COVINGTON: DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE AT 13 ALL AS TO WHAT THAT GENERAL PLAN CALLS FOR, THE TYPE OF 14 DEVELOPMENT THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED OR POSSIBLE THERE? 15 MR. SCHULTZ: IT is MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE 16 PLAN DESIGNATION FOR THE REFINERY -- OR PROPOSED REFINERY 17 AND INDUSTRIAL PARK AREA IS PRESENTLY LIGHT INDUSTRIAL. 18 MR. COVINGTON: CAN 1 ASSUME -- PERHAPS I'M 19 GOING BEYOND YOUR EXPERTISE AND KNOWLEDGE. WOULD THAT 20 EXCLUDE -- 2i MR. SCHULTZ: IT'S MY IMPRESSIONS THAT WOULD 22 EXCLUDE THE REFINERY, BUT'IT APPEARS TO BE -- DOES NOT 23 APPEAR TO BE A CONSIDERATION GIVEN RIGHT NOW. 24 MR. COVINGTON: OKAY. THAT'S ALL 1 NEED AT 25 THIS MOMENT. THANK YOU. ------- 25 1 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, SIR. 2 IN AN EFFORT TO FOLLOW OUR SCHEDULE, I'M GOING 3 TO DEPART FROM IT SOMEWHAT BECAUSE THE REFINERY DOES HAVE 4 SOME INTEREST IN THIS HEARING. I WILL FOR THE PURPOSE OF 5 THIS HEARING AT THIS TIME CALL ON MR. BRUCE BEAN. 6 MR. BEAN: WE'RE GOING TO USE THE VIEWGRAPH. 7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: MR. BEAN, DO YOU HAVE COPIES 8 OF THE VIEWGRAPHS FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE DAIS? 9 MR. BEAN: I DO NOT NOW, BUT I WILL HAVE IN MY 10 WRITTEN TESTIMONY. 11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU'RE GOING TO SUBMIT WRITTEN 12 TESTIMONY? 13 MR. BEAN: YES. I'LL HAVE TO DO THAT LATER. 1 14 DON'T HAVE IT WITH ME. 15 CHAIRMAN WALKER: FOR THE SAKE OF THE RECORD, 1 16 WANT TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE GOING TO GET THE VIEW- 17 GRAPHS IN AS PART OF THE HEARING RECORD. 18 MR. BEAN: NOT TODAY, BUT YOU WILL GET THEM. 19 [ CAN MAKE THEM TODAY IF YOU WANT TO HAVE THEM AVAILABLE 20 FOR THIS AFTERNOON. 21 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WOULD LIKE THAT SO WE 22 COULD HAVE A COMPLETE HEARING RECORD. 23 MR. BEAN: FINE. 24 GENTLEMEN, I'M BRUCE BEAN, MANAGER OF MACAR10 25 INDEPENDENT REFINERY COMPANY, WITH OFFICES AT 5350 AVENIDA ------- 1 ENC1NAS, CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA. 2 I WILL KEEP MY PRESENTATION BRIEF. HOWEVER, I 3 WANT TO COVER THE PURPOSE OF THE MACAR10 PROJECT AND WHY 4 THE PROPOSED SITE WAS SELECTED, AND A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE 5 PROJECT AND THE BASIS FOR THE AIR EMISSIONS AND THE EXTENT 6 AND THE RESULTS OF OUR METEOROLOGICAL STUDIES. 7 THE PURPOSE OF THE PROJECT IS BASICALLY TO 8 PROVIDE A MORE SECURE SOURCE OF CLEAN LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL 9 FOR THE SAN DIEGO AREA. THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO THE REGULA- 10 TIONS WHICH ARE PUT OUT BY THE APCD AND THE EPA REQUIRING 11 THE USE OF THESE FUELS IN ORDER TO KEEP OUR AIR CLEAN. THE 12 REGULATIONS PROVIDE FOR THE FUELS TO BE USED BUT THEY DON'T 13 PROVIDE FOR THE FUELS TO BE PRODUCED. ]4 THE MORE IMPORTANT IT IS TO MAINTAIN'OUR AIR 15 QUALITY, THE MORE IMPORTANT IT IS TO HAVE THOSE CLEAN FUELS 16 AVAILABLE. NATURAL GAS IS IN SHORT SUPPLY, AS.YOU CAN SEE 17 IN THIS GRAPH THERE ON MY -- ON YOUR RIGHT. PERHAPS YOU 18 CAN SEE. THE GRAPH ON THE TOP SHOWS THE DECLINING AVA1L- 19 ABILITY OF. NATURAL GAS FOR POWER PLANT ELECTRICAL GENERATION, 20 AND THE GRAPH AT THE BOTTOM SHOWS THE INCREASING REQUIREMENTS 21 FOR NATURAL GAS -- FOR RESIDUAL FUEL OIL, LOW-SULPHUR 22 RESIDUAL FUEL OIL AS NATURAL GAS PHASES OUT. 23 THIS HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT FREQUENTLY IN THE .24 NEWSPAPERS NOW. I DON'T THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE ANY FURTHER 25 DISCUSSION OF THAT. THE CURRENT SUPPLY OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL ------- 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OIL IS IN SHORT SUPPLY. CURRENTLY, SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC IS SUPPLIED FROM TWO REFINERIES. ONE IS IN HAWAII. ONE BELONGS TO PACIFIC RESOURCES, ONE OF THE JOINT VENTURERS IN THIS MACARIO OPERATION. THE OTHER ONE BELONGS TO TOSORO UP IN ALASKA. BOTH OF THOSE REFINERIES OPERATE ON LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE. I'M SURE YOU CAN'T SEE THAT SLIDE OVER THERE, BUT WHAT WE'RE ATTEMPTING TO DEMONSTRATE IS THAT THE REFINERIES THAT ARE IN EXISTENCE NOW PRODUCE LOW-SULPHUR FUELS FROM LOW-SULPHUR CRUDES.. LOW-SULPHUR CRUDES AMOUNT TO SOMETHING LIKE 14 PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S SUPPLY OF CRUDE. HAS A LOW-SULPHUR CONTENT. IF YOU COULD SEE THAT SLIDE, YOU WOULD SEE THAT U. S. REFINERIES PROCESS -- OR THE CRUDES THAT ARE USED BY U. S. REFINERIES ARE 63 PERCENT LOW-SULPHUR CRUDES. IN OTHER WORDS, WE ARE PROCESSING MOST OF OUR PRODUCTS ONLY FROM A LIMITED PORTION OF OUR CRUDE SUPPLY. IN ORDER TO REMEDY THIS SITUATION AS WE COME TO A CRUDE SHORTAGE SITUATION IN THE WORLD, WE HAVE TO GO TO A NEW KIND OF REFINERY. OUR REFINERY IN HAWAII, THE HAWAIIAN INDEPENDENT REFINERY, AND ALSO THE REFINERY IN ALASKA, DO NOT HAVE FACILITIES TO DESULPHURIZE CRUDE OILS. THE ALASKAN CRUDE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WAS FOUND IN THE ALASKA NORTH SLOPE IS NOT A LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE. IT HAS A SULPHUR CONTENT IN THE .VICINITY OF ONE PERCENT. THE NEW DESULPHURIZING TYPE OF REFINERY THAT WE ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PROPOSE FOR HERE, THE SCHEME IS SHOWN ON THIS DIAGRAM. BASICALLY, IT'S A REFINERY VERY SIMILAR TO WHAT WE HAVE IN HAWAII EXCEPT WE HAVE ADDED DESULPHURIZATI ON UNITS IN WHICH WE CAN ACTUALLY REMOVE THE SULPHUR FROM THE PRODUCTS. THESE NEW FACILITIES ARE NOT SIMPLE. THEY ARE EXTENSIVE. THEY ARE NOT ALTOGETHER NEW. THERE ARE NEW UNITS OF THIS TYPE •BUILT. THERE IS A COMPLETE UNIT OF THIS TYPE BUILT AND OPERATING. IN JAPAN. THERE IS ONE BEING BUILT IN LOS ANGELES BY STANDARD OIL OF CALIFORNIA TO SUPPLY THE LOS ANGELES AREA. BUT THEY ARE RELATIVELY NEW IN THE REFINERY SCENE. THIS IS NOT A TYPICAL REFINERY BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION. TYPICALLY, A U. S. REFINERY IS BUILT TO MAKE GASOLINE. ABOUT 50 PERCENT OF ITS PRODUCT COMES OUT IN GASOLINE, MUCH OF THE REST COMES OUT IN DIESEL OIL, AND THE LITTLE BIT THAT COMES OUT AT THE BOTTOM USUALLY HAS A HIGH-SULPHUR CONTENT, AND THEY USE IT FOR BUNKER FUEL IN SHIPS. AND IF THEY CAN'T FIND ENOUGH SHIPS TO TAKE THE STUFF AWAY, THEN THEY COKE IT, TURN IT INTO COKE. MOST OF THE REFINERIES UP IN LOS ANGELES, FOR EXAMPLE, HAVE THE ABILITY TO TURN THE RESIDUAL INTO COKE. IT IS ONLY A FEW- REFINERIES THAT HAVE AVAILABLE OR MAKE AVAILABLE LOW-SULPHUR FUEL THAT CAN MAKE THE LOW-SULPHUR OIL THAT WE USE IN OUR UTILITIES TODAY. WHAT I'M SAYING IS WE NEED NEW FACILITIES AND WE THINK THOSE NEW FACILITIES SHOULD BE BUILT WHERE THE LOAD ------- 29 1 IS. IN THIS CASE, IN SAN DIEGO. NOW, WE'RE PROPOSING THIS 2 REFINERY BE BUILT IN SAN DIEGO TO SERVE THE SAN DIEGO MARKET. 3 THE SITE SELECTED, AS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTO -- JANE MAYBE CAN 4 POINT OUT THE ACTUAL SITE. THIS IS AN 855-ACRE SITE THAT 5 BELONGS TO THE JAPATUL CORPORAT1 ON, A SUBSIDIARY OF SAN 6 DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC. WE PROPOSE TO USE THE CENTER 300 ACRES 7 OF THAT FOR OUR REFINERY. THAT'S IN A CA-NYON AREA WHICH IS 8 NOT VISIBLE FROM ANY OF THE SURROUNDING ROADS. THERE IS A 9 SKETCH THERE WHICH SHOWS WHY WE CHOSE THIS SITE. CERTAINLY 10 .CARLSBAD DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE REFINERY CENTER OF THE WORLD -- ]| THAT'S UPSIDE DOWN OR BACKWARDS OR SOMETHING. IT LOOKS LIKE 12 IT'S UPSIDE DOWN. MAYBE IT ISN'T. 1 GUESS IT ISN'T. I'M 13 UPSIDE DOWN, I GUESS. 14 THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS WHY CARLSBAD WAS CHOSEN. 15 IT'S A VERY GOOD LOCATION FOR A REFINERY. IN FACT, WE 16 SEARCHED UP AND DOWN THE COAST. WE SUPPLY OTHER UTILITIES 17 BESIDES SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC, AND WE SEARCHED FOR OTHER 18 REFINERY SITES UP AND DOWN THE COAST, AND THIS, I CAN SAY, 19 IS THE BEST REFINERY SITE WE FOUND. 20 FIRST, YOU HAVE A MOORING OFFSHORE OF THE ENCINA 21 POWER PLANT WHICH WILL TAKE A TANKER 70- TO 80,000 DEAD 22 WEIGHT TON CAPACITY. THERE'S NO MOORINGS SOUTH OF 23 HUNTINGTON BEACH UP IN LOS ANGELES NOR NORTH OF ROSARITA 24 BEACH WHICH WILL TAKE A SHIP OF THAT SIZE. YOU NEED A SHIP 25 OF ABOUT THAT SIZE IN ORDER TO SUPPLY A REFINERY THE' SI ZE ------- 30 1 WE NEED TO BUILD. 2 SECONDLY, THE ENCINA POWER PLANT IS RIGHT THERE, 3 AND IT IS ONE OF THE TWO BIGGEST USERS OF RESIDUAL FUEL IN 4 SAN DIEGO COUNTY. THE OTHER USER IS THE SOUTH BAY POWER 5 PLANT AND, OF COURSE, IT DOESN'T HAVE THE OFF-SHORE MOORING. 6 RIGHT NOW THE FUEL OIL THAT COMES IN FROM THE HAWAIIAN 7 INDEPENDENT REFINERY IN HAWAII IS DELIVERED IN 70- TO 80,000 8 DEAD-WEIGHT TANKERS AT THE ENCINA MOORING. THE OIL IS PUT 9 ASHORE, AND WHAT IS NEEDED DOWN AT SOUTH BAY IS TRANSFERRED 10 BY SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC BY BARGE DOWN TO SOUTH BAY. 11 IN ADDITION TO THOSE TWO FEATURES THERE, WHICH 12 MEANS YOU HAVE A MARKET FOR A LARGE PORTION OF THE FUEL 13 RIGHT ADJACENT TO THE SITE, THERE'S THE SAN DIEGO PIPELINE 14 WHICH RUNS IN EL CAMINO REAL, THE DASH-ED LINE. THIS IS A 15 CLEAN PRODUCTS PIPELINE WHICH MOVES FUEL FROM THE LOS 16 ANGELES REFINERIES TO SAN DIEGO. THIS CARRIES ALL YOUR 17 GASOLINES AND JET FUELS DOWN TO THE TERMINAL IN MISSION 18 VALLEY FROM WHICH IT'S DISPENSED. 19 IN ADDITION TO THAT, THERE'S A NATURAL GAS 20 PIPELINE, A 30-INCH NATURAL GAS PIPELINE. THIS IS THE 21 PRIMARY TRANSMISSION LINE THAT BRINGS THE GAS FROM THE 22 LOS ANGELES AREA WHICH, OF COURSE, ORIGINALLY COMES FROM 23 TEXAS, OKLAHOMA INTO THE SAN DIEGO AREA. THIS MEANS THAT 24 WE CAN INJECT BOTH OUR DISTILLATE PRODUCTS TO GET THEM DOWN 25 .TO SAN DIEGO AND OUR NATURAL GAS INTO THOSE TWO PIPELINES. ------- 31 1 AGAIN, IF WE WERE DOWN ON THE OTHER SIDE OF SAN DJEGO, IF 2 WE WERE SOUTH OF SAN DIEGO, WE WOULD HAVE TO BUILD NEW 3 PIPELINES BACK UP INTO SAN DIEGO. 4 IN ADDITION TO THOSE FEATURES, THE SITE ITSELF 5 IS ISOLATED. THERE'S AN 855-ACRE PARCEL THAT'S OWNED BY 6 SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC. IT'S SHIELDED BY HILLS ON EITHER 1 SIDE SO IT CAN'T BE SEEN FROM THE LOCAL AREA. THERE'S AN 8 AIRPORT THERE WHICH PUTS A NOISE IMPACT ON THE LOCAL PROPERTY 9 AND SO FORTH. 10 LET ME GO ON TO THE EMISSIONS. YOU CAN TURN 11 THAT OFF. THE EMISSIONS ESTIMATE ARE BASED UPON THE PROCESS 12 SCHEME THAT I HAVE DESCRIBED, WHICH IS A FUEL OIL REFINERY, 13 NOT A GASOLINE REFINERY. THE EMISSIONS ARE LARGELY RELATED 14 TO THE FUEL SUPPLY TO THE REFINERY ITSELF, SINCE THE 15 EMISSIONS ARE BASICALLY FLUE GASES WHICH ARE THE RESULT OF 16 ANY COMBUSTION OPERATION. WE ASSUME IN OUR CALCULATIONS 17 WE WOULD USE THE SAME - LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL THAT WE WOULD 18 SUPPLY TO SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC, THAT BEING THE HIGHEST 19 SULPHUR CONTENT ALLOWED BY THE LAW IN -- OR THE APCD REGULA- 20 TIONS IN SAN DIEGO. 21 WE ALSO BASE THOSE CALCULATIONS, OF COURSE, ON 22 EMISSION FACTORS WHICH ARE TAKEN FROM EPA REGULATIONS. I 23 THINK IT'S INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THOSE EPA MANUALS, I 24 SHOULD HAVE SAID, THOSE EPA MANUALS ARE BASED UPON DATA 25 THAT WAS GATHERED ON REFINERIES THAT WERE BUILT IN 1950 OR ------- 32 1 WERE IN OPERATION IN 1957 AND '58. .IN OTHER WORDS, THE 2 STUDIES ON WHICH THESE EMISSION FACTORS ARE BASED WERE DONE I IN 1957, '58, ON EXISTING REFINERIES IN LOS ANGELES, WHICH 4 MEANS THE REFINERIES THEMSELVES MAY BE 40 TO 50 YEARS OLD 5 AT THIS POINT. 6 NOW, WE HAD TO DEPART FROM THAT, OF COURSE, 7 IN CERTAIN CASES WHERE WE HAD PROCESSES THAT ARE NOT -- WERE 8 NOT IN EXISTENCE AT THAT TIME. BUT, BASICALLY, THE EMISSION 9 FACTORS THAT WE'RE USING ARE BASED ON THE TECHNOLOGY THAT 10 WAS AVAILABLE 20 TO 30 YEARS AGO. THEREFORE, IT'S VERY 11 CONSERVATIVE. 12 WE RECOGNIZE THAT THE AIR QUALITY WOULD BE A 13. MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, AND WE ENGAGED A CONSULTANT, METEOROLOGY 14 RESEARCH, INCORPORATED, FROM PASADENA TO DO OUR METEOROLOGICAL 15 WORK. IN THAT WE CONDUCTED SOME THREE YEARS OF METEOROLOGICAL 16 DATA FROM THE PALOMAR AIRPORT. 17 WE CONDUCTED RADIOSONDE AND. INSTRUMENTED AIRCRAFT 18 STUDIES. WE HAD SOME 29 FLIGHTS OUT OF PALOMAR AIRPORT 19 TRYING TO CHASE DOWN THE PLUME FROM THE ENC1NA POWER PLANT 20 AND MEASURE THE INVERSION HEIGHTS AND HOW THEY VARIED 21 THROUGHOUT THE DAY AND THIS SORT OF THING. 22 WE SET OUT A NETWORK OF SULPHATION PLATES TO 23 MEASURE THE EXISTING LEVELS OF SULPHUR D-I OX I DE IN THE AIR. 24 WE ALSO HAD OUR CONSULTANT CONDUCT EXTENSIVE COMPUTER 25 ANALYSIS OF THIS DATA TO DETERMINE THE EFFECT OF THE PROJECT ------- ] ON AMBIENT AIR CONCENTRATIONS. 2 . OUR CONSULTANT CONCLUDED THAT THE PROJECT WOULD 3, NOT VIOLATE ANY OF THE AIR QUALITY STANDARDS, AND IT'S OUR 4 UNDERSTANDING THAT THE EPA BY INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS HAS COME 5 TO THIS SAME CONCLUSION. THE CONCLUSION IS WE WON'T VIOLATE 6 THE EMISSIONS STANDARDS, WE WON'T VIOLATE THE AMBIENT 'AIR 7 QUALITY STANDARDS, AND WE WON'T VIOLATE THE SIGNIFICANT 8 DETERIORATION STANDARDS. AND WITH THIS CONFIRMATION, WE 9 DON'T SEE'ANY REASON WHY THE AUTHORITY TO CONSTRUCT PERMIT 10 SHOULD NOT BE ISSUED. 11 THANK YOU.- 12 (APPLAUSE) 13 CHAIRMAN: THANK YOU, MR. BEAN. 14 I THINK MR. COVINGTON HAS" SOME QUESTIONS. 15 MR. COVINGTON: MR. BEAN, AS YOU ARE AWARE, 16 WE HAVE HAD TO MAKE CERTAIN ASSUMPTIONS IN CARRYING OUT OUR 17 ANALYSES. I'M GOING TO ASK ESPECIALLY AS TO THE USE OF 18 THE PRODUCT, THE CLEAN FUELS. AND IN THAT CONTEXT, 1 WOULD 19 LIKE TO EXPLORE TWO OR THREE ISSUES WITH YOU. 20 WHAT CONTRACTUAL ARRANGEMENTS NOW EXIST WITH 21 RESPECT TO THE ULTIMATE USE OF THE PRODUCT? 22 MR. BEAN: PACIFIC RESOURCES IS A SUPPLIER TO 23 SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC. AND AS A SUPPLIER THEY HAVE 24 A.LONG-RANGE CONTRACT TO SUPPLY. 25 MR. COVINGTON: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "LONG RANGE"? ------- 1 MR. BEAN: SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF FIVE TO 2 TEN YEARS TO SUPPLY. 3 MR. COVINGTON: HOW MUCH AND OF WHAT KIND OF 4 PRODUCT? 5 . MR. BEAN: BASICALLY RESIDUAL FUEL OIL. AND 6 THE TIME FRAME WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HAVING THIS REFINERY 7 COMPLETE, OUR CONTRACT CALLS FOR SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OR 8 29- TO 30,000 BARRELS A DAY OF RESIDUAL FUEL. THAT'S MY 9 RECOLLECTION. THAT CAN BE TRANSFERRED TO THIS REFINERY. ]0 ASIDE FROM THAT, WE HAVE NO REFINERY, WE HAVE NO PERMITS, n WE HAVE NO PRODUCTS, AND WE CAN'T CONTRACT TO SELL SOMETHING 12 WE DON' T HAVE . 13 MR. COVINGTON: I WANTED TO GET INTO IT AS FAR 14 AS AT LEAST THE CORPORATE THINKING HAS GONE SO WE HAVE SOME 15 INDICATION OF THE VALIDITY OF OUR ASSUMPTION. 16 MR. BEAN: I MIGHT ADD ON THAT: THE MARKET 17 ANALYSIS 1S DONE TO SUPPLY THE SAN DIEGO MARKET. THAT'S ]g THE REASON THAT WE'RE BUILDING THE REFINERY IN THE SAN DIEGO 19 AREA. THERE'S NO SIGNIFICANT MEANS OF TRANSFERRING PRODUCTS 20 OUT OF THE SAN DIEGO AREA. IT'S NOT LIKE LOS ANGELES, FOR 2i EXAMPLE, WHERE YOU HAVE A DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM, WHERE YOU 22 COULD MOVE PRODUCTS OUT. WE OBVIOUSLY INTEND TO SUPPLY THE 23 SAN DIEGO MARKET. HOWEVER, IN A FREE ECONOMY YOU CAN'T -- 24 UNTIL YOU HAVE A CONTRACT SIGNED YOU CAN'T SAY WHAT YOU'RE 25 GOING TO DO EXACTLY. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 1 MR. COV1NGTON: GOING A LITTLE BIT FURTHER: BECAUSE OF THE ROLE THAT THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION PLAYS WITH RESPECT TO THE ALLOCATION OF CRUDE, HAVE YOU ENGAGED IN ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH THEM? AND WHAT GUIDANCE OR ADVICE HAVE YOU RECEIVED FROM THEM AS TO THE LIKELIHOOD OF ALLOCATION OF CRUDE FOR PURPOSES OF PRODUCING SYNTHETIC GAS? MR. BEAN: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE WOULDN'T USE CRUDE TO PRODUCE OUR SYNTHETIC GAS. WE PRODUCE NAPTHA. AND AS I'M SURE YOU'RE AWARE, THE ALLOCATION PROGRAM IS A VERY DIFFICULT AND VERY COMPLICATED SUBJECT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I'M SURE YOU'RE ALSO AWARE THE WHOLE ALLOCATION ACTS RUNS OUT IN ONE WEEK, AND THE PRESIDENT SAYS HE'S GOING TO VETO IT, SO 1 REALLY THINK -- I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO SAY ABOUT THAT. WE HAVE SOME PRELIMINARY THOUGHTS ON FUEL STOCK ALLOCATION. WE THINK THIS IS THE BEST USE FOR NAPTHA IN THIS AREA. WE HAVE HAD SOME PRELIMINARY TALKS WITH VARIOUS FEA OFFICIALS. WE HAVE NOTHING FIRM. THE USES FOR NAPTHA GENERALLY BOIL DOWN TO JP't, WHICH IS AN AIR FORCE JET FUEL, WHICH WE HAVE NO USE FOR HERE IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, GASOLINE, WHICH. IS THE LOWEST PRIORITY PRODUCT AS FAR AS THE FEA IS CONCERNED. AS FAR AS THE FEA PRODUCTION OF GASOLINE, IT IS THE LOWEST PRIORITY THING YOU CAN DO WITH NAPTHA. ANOTHER USE FOR IT WOULD BE PETROCHEMICAL MANUFACTURE, WHICH WE HAVE NO SIGNIFICANT ------- I MARKET HERE IN SAN DIEGO. THIS LEAVES. US BASICALLY WITH 2 SYNTHETIC GAS. WE THINK THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT MARKET AND 3 A GOOD USE FOR IT FOR THAT PURPOSE. 4 MR. COV1NGTON: DO YOU HAVE ANY PRELIMINARY FEEL 5 FROM THE STATE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION ABOUT THE ALLOCATION 6 OF THAT SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT WOULD BE PRODUCED? i MR. BEAN: IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PUBLIC 8 UTILITIES COMMISSION DOES NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO ALLOCATE ^9 THAT GAS OUTSIDE OF THE SAN DIEGO AREA AT THIS TIME. 10 MR. COVINGTON- CAN YOU COMMENT ON OR .ELABORATE 11 OR CLARIFY THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE EARLIER SPEAKER, MR. 12 SCHULTZ, WITH REGARD TO HIS CONCERN THAT THE PRESENCE OF 13 THE REFINERY WOULD ATTRACT SATELLITE INDUSTRIES? DO YOU 14 HAVE ANY INSIGHT INTO THAT ISSUE? 15 MR. BEAN: WELL, I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE 16 TO RECOGNIZE THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF A REFINERY THAN 17 A NORMAL L.A.-TYPE REFINERY, FOR EXAMPLE. WE'RE TALKING 18 ABOUT A FUEL OIL REFINERY THAT IS DESIGNED TO SUPPLY UTILITY 19 FUELS, BASICALLY. THAT'S OUR PRIMARY PRODUCT, IS UTILITY 20 FUELS. THIS HAS BEEN OUR EXPERIENCE IN HAWAII, WHERE WE 21 BUILT -- THERE THE REFINERY WAS BUILT BY THE HONOLULU GAS 22 COMPANY, WHICH LATER GREW INTO PACIFIC RESOURCES. AND THERE 23 IT SUPPLIES ITS PRODUCT TO UTILITIES. IN FACT, IT IS THE 24 REFINERY THAT SUPPLIES THE MAJOR PORTION OF FUEL FOR SAN 25 DIEGO ITSELF. FROM THAT ASPECT, THESE FUELS AREN'T SUITABLE j ------- 37 1 FOR PERHAPS OTHER USES. j ( i 2 AS FAR AS OTHER INDUSTRIES, FUEL-USING INDUSTRIES,) I 3 SPROUTING UP, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE VICINITY OF THE REFINERY, 4 1 DON'T REALLY -- WE'RE NOT PLANNING ON THAT. CERTAINLY 5 THE EPA AND THE LOCAL ZONING AUTHORITIES WOULD HAVE AUTHORITY 6 OVER THAT. THERE IS A FUEL PIPELINE THAT GOES RIGHT BY THAT 7 PROPERTY NOW, HAULING OVER 50,000 BARRELS A DAY OF LIGHT 8 PRODUCTS. IF SOMEBODY WANTED TO BUILD A FUEL-USING INDUSTRY, 9. THEY COULD HAVE BUILT IT A LONG TIME AGO. 10 MR. COVINGTON: WHAT ARE THE PROSPECTS FOR |] SIGNIFICANT EXPANSION OF THE REFINERY CAPACITY OR CHANGE IN 12 THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE OUTPUT GIVEN YOUR PRESENT SITE j3 LOCATION AND SO FORTH? 14 MR. BEAN: WELL, THE SITE IS B-l G ENOUGH TO 15 SUPPORT EXPANSION. HOWEVER, OUR VIEW OF THIS AT THIS TIME 16 IS THAT OIL IS IN THE POSITION OF HOLDING — MEETING OUR 17 ENERGY REQUIREMENTS IN A RELATIVELY SHORT TIME. BY THAT 18 I MEAN THROUGH THE END OF THE CENTURY, PERHAPS. IN THAT 19 LIGHT, WE DON'T -- WE SEE OIL PEEKING OUT AS NUCLEAR PLANTS 20 AND OTHER TYPES OF FACILITIES, PERHAPS, COME ON THAT CAN 21 CARRY THIS LOAD. BASICALLY HAVING NO NATIONAL ENERGY POLICY, 22 IT'S HARD TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION, AS WE SEE IT. OIL WILL 23 HAVE TO PEAK OUT. IN THAT RESPECT, WE DON'T SEE THIS AS 24 AN EXPANDING REFINERY. 25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. BEAN. • ------- 38 1 1 WILL NOW CALL ON MR. GEORGE W. JONES REPRE- 2 SENT1NG HIMSELF. 3 MR. JONES: AS A COINCIDENCE, YOU HAVE THE 4 SAME THING 1 HAVE AS A MIDDLE NAME, WALKER. BUT WELCOME. 5 'I'M JUST AN AVERAGE PEON, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF 6 THINGS THAT ARE SAID PRO AND CON ON, THIS OIL REFINERY. I'M 7 NOT REALLY ACCUSTOMED TO MAKING PUBLIC SPEECHES AND WHAT 8 HAVE YOU, BUT MY VIEW OF THE THING IS THERE IS -- WELL, I'M 9 A PIPEFITTER WITH THE PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS LOCAL, AND 10 I'VE SAT DOWN THERE ON THE OUT-OF-WORK LIST FOR A PERIOD OF 11 FOUR MONTHS LAST YEAR, AND THERE'S BEEN UPWARDS OF 200 MEN 12 OUT OF WORK. THERE'S STILL PROBABLY 150 OF THOSE MEN STILL 13 WAITING FOR A JOB. H IF EVERYBODY'S GOT MONEY, I WOULD BE GLAD, IT 15 WOULD BE GOOD, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT NEED WORK. 16 AND AS LONG AS THIS ENVIRONMENTAL THING THAT YOU HAVE HERE 17 IS WITHIN THE REALM OF YOUR LUNGS, I MEAN, FOR THE FUTURE, 18 I THINK IT'S GOOD. 19 BACK IN MY DAY--I'M A LITTLE OLDER THAN A LOT 20 OF THESE PEOPLE IN HERE. I CAME FROM ST. LOUIS. IN THE 21 AFTERNOON IT WOULD BE SO DARK YOU COULDN'T HARDLY SEE. 22 THAT'S WHEN THEY HAD SMOKELESS COAL. THE ENVIRONMENTAL 23 THING HAS COME A LONG WAYS FROM THEN. A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE 24 THINK IT'S BAD IF YOU PUT A LITTLE GAS OR SOMETHING OUT OF 25 THEIR EXHAUST, BUT THEN YOU COULD HARDLY BREATHE, SO I THINK ------- 39 1 THE PEOPLE WILL PROGRESS TO THE THING THAT IS FOR THE 2 BETTER OF MANKIND, AND I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS A 3 PERSON HAS TO LOOK AT, TOO, IS THAT YOU HAVE TO WORK, YOU 4 HAVE TO MAKE -- WHAT IF YOU HAVE THE CLEANEST LUNGS IN THE 5 WORLD AND YOU HAVE NOTHING IN YOUR STOMACH? 6 (APPLAUSE) 7 I THINK YOU PEOPLE HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB AND IT'S 8 GOOD, BUT THERE IS SOME THINGS THAT NEED HELP, TOO. 1 MEAN, 9 PEOPLE CAN GO OVERBOARD ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. WELL, I CAN 10 SEE THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE LIVED IN THE AREA -- NATURALLY A ]] LOT OF THEM ARE RETIRED PEOPLE AND THEY DON'T CARE IF ANYONE 12 WORKS OR DON'T (CRIES OF BOO). ACTUALLY, A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL 13 THAT WAY. 14 CHAIRMAN WALKER: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MAY I 15 INTERRUPT HERE? WE CAME DOWN HERE FROM SAN FRANCISCO TO 16 HEAR ALL OF YOU. WE'RE QUITE SURE EVERYONE FEELS VERY 17 STRONGLY. WE WOULD APPRECIATE IF YOU WOULD KEEP THE 18 DEMONSTRATIONS TO A MINIMUM. WE UNDERSTAND HOW YOU FEEL. 19 WE UNDERSTAND EVERYONE FEELS STRONGLY. WE ASSUMED THAT. 20 MR. JONES: I'M GLAD THEY FEEL THAT WAY. THAT'S 21 ALL I HAVE TO SAY. THANK YOU. 22 (APPLAUSE) 23 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 NOW CALL ON MR. RICH 24 SOMMERVILLE. 25 MR. SOMMERVILLE: MY NAME IS.RICH SOMMERVILLE. ------- 1 1 AM WITH THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT. 2 WE HAVE A TRANSPARENCY, AND I WILL GIVE THE 3 CHAIR A COPY OF THAT. 4 I HAVE ALL SORTS OF LITTLE NOTES TRYING TO 5 RESPOND TO CERTAIN THINGS THAT CAME UP DURING THE TESTIMONY. 6 I'LL TRY TO KEEP IT BRIEF. 7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT MICROPHONE IS PRETTY 8 DIRECTIONAL. YOU HAVE TO TALK RIGHT INTO IT. 9 MR. SOMMERVILLE: LET'S DO IT THIS WAY, THEN.. JO AS A LITTLE BACKGROUND, THE EPA HAS INDICATED jl THAT THE REASON THEY'RE HERE IS BECAUSE THE LOCAL DISTRICTS 12 IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA WERE UNABLE TO COME UP WITH 13 RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT WOULD APPLY TO THE EVALUATION OF 14 SOURCES, NEW SOURCES, AS TO THEIR IMPACT ON THE AIR QUALITY. 15 THAT WAS FURTHER REFINED TO SAY THAT THEY WERE INADEQUATE. 16 WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IS THAT WE DO HAVE RULES 17 AND REGULATIONS AS THEY APPLY TO NEW SOURCES THAT COME INTO 18 THIS REGION AND WE DO EVALUATE THE AIR QUALITY IMPACT. OUR 19 CONCERN ABOUT OUR REGULATIONS IS THAT THEY MAY BE VERY 20 STRICT. THE REASON WHY EPA DID NOT ACCEPT THOSE REGULATIONS 21 IS THAT WE DID NOT PUT INTO THEM A PUBLIC REVIEW PERIOD. 22 THE PUBLIC REVIEW PERIOD IS SOMETHING LIKE THEY USE ON AN 23 EfR. 1 THINK MANY OF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THAT. THIS IS 24 INCONSISTENT WITH PRESENT PRACTICES IN AIR POLLUTION CONTROL 25 LAW, AND SO WE DIDN'T DO THAT. THAT'S. WHY EPA IS DOWN HERE ------- 1 AS FAR AS SAN DIEGO IS CONCERNED. NOT BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE 2 A RULE, NOT BECAUSE OUR RULES ARE NOT ADEQUATE. 1 THINK 3 MR. BEAN MIGHT TESTIFY TO THE POINT THAT OUR RULES MAY BE 4 A LITTLE TOO ADEQUATE. BUT, INDEED, WE DI DN ' T .HAVE A PUBLIC 5 REVIEW COMMENT, AND THAT'S ALL. 6 WITH THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON AND TALK A 7 LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING. THIS AIR POLLUTION 8 CONTROL DISTRICT HAS BEEN REVIEWING THE MACAR10 REFINERY 9 FOR SOME TIME. IN FACT, I THINK IF YOU WERE TO STACK UP 10 ALL THE ANALYSIS THAT HAS BEEN DONE ON THE MACAR10 REFINERY, 11 YOU WOULD FIND THIS DISTRICT HAS DONE THE MOST ANALYSIS, THE 12 MOST DETAILED ANALYSIS, AND I THINK WE ARE PRETTY WELL THE 13 MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT THE IMPACT IN THE LOCALITY AND IN 14 THE REGION AND THE SPECIFIC EMISSIONS THAT ARE GOING TO BE 15 EMITTED FROM THAT REFINERY. 16 I'M NOT HERE TODAY TO SAY WE ARE GOING TO 17 APPROVE OR DISAPPROVE THAT REFINERY. WE ARE STILL IN AN 18 ANALYSIS PERIOD. WE WON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE GOING TO-DO WITH 19 THE REFINERY, WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO APPROVE IT OR DISAPPROVE 20 IT, UNTIL OUR ANALYSIS IS COMPLETE. WE DON'T FEEL WE'RE 21 GOING.TO KNOW ENOUGH UNTIL PROBABLY, SAY, OCTOBER, M I D-OCTOBE!f, 22 BEFORE WE CAN SAY WHETHER IT SHOULD BE APPROVED OR 23 DISAPPROVED OR PERHAPS APPROVED WITH CERTAIN CONDITIONS. 24 SO, THAT'S WHERE WE ARE. WE'RE SIMPLY SAYING THAT AT THIS 25 POINT WE'RE IN THE MIDST OF OUR ANALYSIS AND WE DON'T KNOW ------- 1 ENOUGH, AND TO THIS POINT WE HAVE DONE MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE. 2 WHAT WE HAVE BEEN .HEARING TODAY FROM THE EPA IS 3 THAT THE PRIMARY PROBLEM WAS THREE IMPACT AREAS. ONE IMPACT 4 AREA WAS THE LOCAL. IMPACT, THE DETERIORATION OF THE AIR OUAL1 TJY 5 IN THE LOCAL AREA. THE OTHER ONE IS THE EMISSIONS FROM 6 THE REFINERY. NEW SOURCES MUST USE THE BEST AVAILABLE 7 TECHNOLOGY TO REDUCE- THOSE EMISSIONS. THERE IS NO OTHER 8 REASON TO ALLOW THEM TO BUILD. YOU MUST SAY, "HEY, YOU KNOW, 9 DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN." 10 THE OTHER ONE 1S.THE REGIONAL IMPACT. OF COURSE, 11 THERE'S A SYNERG1SM BETWEEN THE REGIONAL IMPACT AND THE 12 LOCAL IMPACT. FOR EXAMPLE, IF REGIONALLY THERE'S ALL SORTS 13 OF SULPHUR GOING INTO THE AIR OR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, THAT'S 14 A BACKGROUND LEVEL UPON WHICH THE LOCAL EMISSIONS ARE GOING 15 TO BE ADDED TO. SO, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS IN THE 16 REGION, DOWN THE LINE, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, LOCALLY. 17 SO, WE'RE REALLY INVOLVED IN LOOKING AT THE 18 QUESTION OF WHAT CONSTITUTES MAXIMUM CONTROL TECHNOLOGY 19 AVAILABLE, WHAT ARE THE EFFECTS ON THE REGIONAL AIR QUALITY, 20 THE IMPACT ON LOCALIZED AIR QUALITY. I SHOULD SAY WE HAVE 21 BEEN WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THE EPA. OUR RESULTS VERY 22 OFTEN COME UP DIFFERENT, BUT THEN, AGAIN, WE'RE WORKING 23 TOGETHER TO TRY TO ALLEVIATE THAT. 24 THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT REDUCTIONS POSSIBLE WE 25 HAVE FOUND THROUGH JUST OUR PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS BY DOING ------- 1 1 SOME FUEL SWITCHING WITHIN A REFINERY. AND WE HAVE A SLIDE 2 HERE ON THAT. I CAN'T SEE THE SLIDE. 1 HOPE YOU CAN. 3 LET ME EXPLAIN IT, THEN, THE REDUCTIONS IN FUEL 4 SWITCHING. WHAT WE'RE SIMPLY SAY^!S, YOU KNOW, THE REFINERY 5 USES ENERGY JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE USES FUEL OIL, FOR EXAMPLE 6 AS YOU SEE HERE, THESE ARE EMISSIONS IN TONS PER DAY THAT 7 ARE REALLY ALL OF THE EMISSIONS THAT WE KNOW OF TO DATE g FROM THE REFINERY. IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT TOTAL EMISSIONS. 9 WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE REFINERY AS IT'S PRESENTLY PROPOSED. 1Q THEY'RE GOING TO USE A HALF-PERCENT RESIDUAL n FUEL OIL. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE GOING TO USE .5 PERCENT ,2 FUEL OIL TO RUN THEIR REFINERY. WE HAVE SOME LISTS HERE ,3 OFfiMISSIONS THAT OCCUR WHEN YOU DO THAT. SULPHUR DIOXIDE, ,4 PARTICULATES, HYDROCARBONS, NITROGEN DIOXIDE, AND CARBON 15 MONOXIDE. THE HYDROCARBON PROBLEM HAS ALREADY BEEN Ig ADDRESSED BY THE EPA, AND WE DO HAVE AN OXIDANT PROBLEM 17 HERE, THE PRECURSOR OF WHICH IS HYDROCARBONS. WE ARE 18 ALREADY SIGNIFICANTLY EXCEEDING THOSE STANDARDS, AND WE'RE 19 GOING TO HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT TIME ATTAINING THEM. 20 ANOTHER NOTE. THE FEDERAL AIR OUALITY STANDARDS 21 FOR PARTICULATES, HYDROCARBONS, AND CARBON MONOXIDE- ARE 22 ALL CURRENTLY BEING EXCEEDED. ON THE LIST HERE--AND THIS 23 IS FOR EPA'S NOTES MORE THAN AMYTHIMG--WE HAVE FOUND THAT 24 THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT THE EMISSION STANDARDS FOR LOSING 25 VAPORS THROUGH STORAGE TANKS ARE NOT VERY GOOD, AND WE THINK ------- THEY CAN BE REDUCED. THERE 5S NEW TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE, AND ' 2 WE THINK THE A.P. 42 EMISSION STANDARDS FOR THOSE ARE NOT ' 3 RIGHT. NOW, ANOTHER THING THAT THEY COULD DO IS THEY 5 COULD USE, INSTEAD OF FIVE-PERCENT SULPHUR OR HALF-PERCENT 6 SULPHUR -- I ALMOST GAVE BARNEY A HEART ATTACK. I MISS 7 DECIMAL POINTS. AND WHEN I MEAN A HALF PERCENT, EVERY ONCE 8 IN A WHILE 1 SAY FIVE PERCENT, AND IN THIS BUSINESS IT 9 MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE, AND MY ENGINEERS QUAKE. WE CAN USE 10 -1 DISTILLATE FUEL OIL. IF YOU DO THAT, YOU GET A NET 11 DECREASE IN CERTAIN EMISSIONS AND A NET INCREASE IN CERTAIN 12 OTHERS. 13 BUT LOOK AT THE REDUCTIONS. IN SULPHUR DIOXIDE, 14 YOU CAN REDUCE-THE EMISSIONS BY, SAY, 80 PERCENT; FOR ,5 PARTICULATES, SAY, 30 PERCENT. THOSE ARE BIG NUMBERS. YOU 16 DO GET A, SAY, FIVE -- SAY A THREE TO FIVE TO SIX PERCENT 17 INCREASE IN HYDROCARBONS, NITROGEN DIOXIDE, AND CARBON 18 MONOXIDE IF YOU USE THE .1 PERCENT DISTILLATE FUEL OIL, OR 19 DISTILLATE OIL. OF COURSE, THE REFINERY IS MAKING THAT 20 STUFF, AND WE ARE JUST SAYING, "HEY, REFINERY, WHY DON'T 21 WE USE SOME OF YOUR OWN PRODUCT." IT SHOULD BE PRETTY CHEAP. 22 NOW, THAT GIVES US AN OVERALL REDUCTION IN THE CATEGORIES 23 ! OF EMISSIONS OF APPROXIMATELY 33 PERCENT, AND THAT'S PRETTY 24 GOOD. 25 THE OTHER THING YOU CAN DO IS USE NAPTHA. THIS ------- REFINERY MAKES NAPTHA, AND IT IS THEIR BASIC ELEMENT OF WHICH j i THEY PRODUCE SNG, FOR EXAMPLE. THEY CAN PRODUCE OTHER THINGS.! WE DON'T HAVE VERY GOOD EMISSION FACTORS AT THIS POINT FOR NAPTHA. WHEN YOU USE NAPTHA, THE EMISSION FACTORS THAT WE HAVE FOUND ARE INADEQUATE AND, THEREFORE, THOSE REPRESENTED HERE ARE WHAT WE FEEL AT THIS POINT TO BE WORSE-CASE EMISSIONS IF YOU USE THOSE, YOU SEE THAT YOUR PERCENT REDUCTIONS ARE EVEN BETTER. SULPHUR DIOXIDE CAN BE REDUCED BY 86 PERCENT, PARTICULATES BY, SAY, 6fl PERCENT, HYDRO- CARBONS A NET REDUCTION OF VERY LITTLE, 5 PERCENT. 15 PERCEN ON THE NITROGEN DIOXIDE, 5 PERCENT, SAY, ON CARBON MONOXIDE, FOR A TOTAL OF ABOUT 49, 50 PERCENT REDUCTION IN THE EMISSIONS THAT WOULD BE GOING INTO THE AIR IF WE ACCEPTED THE CONTROL TECHNOLOGY AS THE REFINERY HAD ORIGINALLY PROPOSED. NOW, IF WE WANT TO GET REALLY DOWN TO THE NITTY GRITTY, WE CAN USE SOME OF THE PRODUCT, THE FINAL PRODUCT, AND THAT IS THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS. SO, THE REFINERY IS SIMPLY USING ITS OWN FINAL PRODUCT. THERE IS SULPHUR DIOXIDE -- WE GET, SAY, A 95 TO 97 PERCENT REDUCTION. YOU'RE ALMOST TOTALLY ELIMINATING THE PROBLEM THAT MAY OCCUR WITH SULPHUR DIOXIDE. IF YOU USE THE NATURAL GAS, THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS, AS MADE BY THE REFINERY. OF COURSE, THAT'S THE1R PRODUCT. THEY WOULD LIKE TO SELL THAT INSTEAD OF USE IT THEMSELVES. ------- i 1 YOU GET A 90 PERCENT REDUCTION IN PART ICULATES. 2 ESSENTIALLY, YOU'RE USING NATURAL GAS, WHICH IS THE CLEANEST 3 BURNING FUEL-AVAILABLE. HYDROCARBONS, 80 PERCENT REDUCTION, 4 NITROGEN DIOXIDE, 39 PERCENT; CARBON MONOXIDE, 17, FOR A 5 TOTAL OF 67 PERCENT. SO, WE DO HAVE A RANGE OF THINGS TO 6 DO TO MITIGATE THE IMPACT OF THIS REFINERY BEYOND THAT WHICH 7 I BELIEVE EPA HAS CONSIDERED AND 1 KNOW THE REFINERY HAS 8 CONSIDERED. 9 NOW, THE QUESTION IS: ARE WE JUSTIFIED IN DOING 10 THIS? FOR ONE PERSPECTIVE., THE LAW REOUIRES A MAXIMUM 11 CONTROL TECHNOLOGY. WE FEEL THAT THIS REPRESENTS A MAXIMUM 12 CONTROL TECHNOLOGY. IF YOU WANT TO TAKE BEYOND THAT, ARE 13 WE JUSTIFIED IN DOING IT FROM AN IMPACT ANALYSIS? YOU HAVE 14 HEARD EPA SAY THEY FIND NO ADVERSE IMPACT. 1 HAVE EVEN 15 HEARD MACARIO SAY THAT THEIR CONSULTANTS FIND NO ADVERSE 16 IMPACT. WELL, WE HAVE ALSO DONE OUR ANALYSIS ON THE LOCAL 17 AND REGIONAL IMPACT. IN FACT, 1 THINK THE STUDY IS ABOUT IS REITERATION NO. 17, AND WHAT WE'RE DOING IS CONTINUALLY 19 DOING EVALUATIONS, CONTINUALLY KNOWING MORE ABOUT THE 20 REFINERY AS OUR ENGINEERS GO THROUGH IT. WE'RE CONTINUALLY 21 FINDING OUT USING A LITTLE DIFFERENT METEOROLOGIC CONDITIONS 22 WE COME UP WITH SOME RESULTS. THE RESULTS ARE VERY 23 INTERESTING. 24 WE HAVE LOOKED AT THE SYNERGISTIC EFFECT BETWEEN 25 THE MACARIO REFINERY AND THE .— AS IT NOW EXISTS AND THE ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ENCINA PLANT AS IT WOULD EXIST WITH A TALL STACK. NOW, THE TALL STACK WAS RATHER INTERESTING. THAT WAS ORIGINALLY PUT ON THERE TO REDUCE THE GROUND LEVEL IMPACT OF THAT INSTALLA- TION, AND IT WILL DO IT. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS: OUR SIMULA- TIONS INDICATE THAT THE MACARIO REFINERY IS LOCATED EXACTLY WHERE THE PLUME DESCENDS TO THE GROUND, SO YOU HAVE IN A LOCALIZED AREA A MAXIMIZED IMPACT FROM THE ENCINA 5 INSTALLATION AND THE IMPACT FROM THE MACARIO REFINERY, AND OUR RESULTS INDICATE THAT WITHOUT CONSIDERING ANY BACKGROUND THAT MACARIO PLUS ENCINA 5 IN THE REGION ON A 24-HOUR STANDARD GIVES YOU ABOUT 39 M1CROGRAMS PER METER CUBE, A 3-HOUR, 102, AND A 1-HOUR, 230. THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE BACKGROUND. JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION, THE 24-HOUR, 3-HOUR, AND 1-HOUR ARE THE STANDARDS THAT ARE SET BY THE STATE. 24-HOUR STANDARDS, 3-HOUR STANDARDS, AND 1-HOUR STANDARDS ARE REPRESENTATIVE STANDARDS IN TIMES OF AVERAGING FEDERAL STANDARDS AND CALIFORNIA STANDARDS. NOW, WHEN WE LOOK AT THIS -'- NOW, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T RELATE MACARIO TO TODAY. NUMBER ONE, IT'S NOT HERE TODAY. IT'S GOING TO BE IN AROUND '78 OR SO. THE FUELS THAT YOU BURN TODAY ARE NOT GOING TO BE AVAILABLE IN '78. WE HAVE A LOT OF NATURAL GASES BURNED IN THESE BOILERS TODAY. THAT'S GOING TO BE CURTAILED IN ABOUT '78. WE WILL BE USING ALMOST ALL HALF-PERCENT, LOW-SULPHUR FUEL. SO, YOU ------- 48 1 1 HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN AROUND CIRCA 1978. 2 WELL, SOME OF THE THINGS WE FIND IS THAT THINGS 3 DON'T LOOK TOO ROSY ON A LOCALIZED IMPACT. IT APPEARS THAT 4 WE ARE LEAST APPROACHING AND MAY EXCEED THE 24-HOUR CALIFORNIA 5 THE STATE STANDARD. AND THAT'S IN A LOCALIZED IMPACT. ON 6 THE REGION WE SEE WHERE WE'RE APPROACHING THE FEDERAL 7 STANDARD FOR S02 AND WE'RE NOT EXCEEDING OUR COMPUTER PROGRAM 8 DON'T SAY YOU'RE GOING TO ACTUALLY EXCEED IT AT THIS POINT. 9 I HAVE TO SAY THAT. SO, IF 1 WAS A BUFF FOR THE REFINERY, 10 I WOULD SAY OUR PROGRAM AND OUR CALCULATIONS DO NOT SHOW 11 THAT WE EXCEED IT. 12 IN OTHER WORDS, NUMBER ONE, IT'S PRELIMINARY 13 AND, NUMBER TWO, IT'S APPROACHING IT. THAT'S WHAT CONCERNS 14 ME, BECAUSE THESE COMPUTER PROGRAMS ARE LIKE THIS. AND A 15 LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW THAT IT'S JUST A MACHINE, AND YOU TRY 16 AND TELL IT TO DO THE BEST IT CAN. BUT A LOT OF US DON'T 17 KNOW ALL ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE ATMOSPHERE THESE 18 DAYS, AND SO THESE COMPUTER PROGRAMS HAVE TO BE TAKEN WITH 19 A LITTLE RESPONSIBILITY, AND 1 FEEL PERSONALLY IF- ALL THE 20 CALCULATIONS ARE POINTING IN A DIRECTION, THEN YOU HAVE TO 21 WATCH OUT. NOT WHETHER THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBERS COME 22 OUT TO SIX DECIMAL POINTS. THE NUMBER IS WRONG. THE 23 QUESTION IS HOW RIGHT OR HOW WRONG IS IT. SO, BEWARE 24 COMPUTER PROGRAMS. 25 IN CONTRAST TO EITHER MACARIO AND IN CONTRAST ------- 2 3 4 5 6 1 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RIGHT NOW TO EPA, WE THINK THERE IS A POTENTIAL FOR SIGNI- FICANTLY IMPACTING AIR QUALITY IN THIS REGION. AND THIS, OF COURSE, IS A VER.Y GOOD BASIS FOR LOOKING AS THE POSSI- BILITIES OF FUEL SWITCHING. BECAUSE IF WE CAN USE NAPTHA, WE CAN REDUCE THAT IMPACT BY 86 PERCENT JUST FROM SULPHUR DIOXIDE, JUST FROM FUEL SWITCHING. SO, I THINK THE POSSI- BILITIES FROM THIS DISTRICT ARE, AT LEAST IN THE INTERIM, THAT WE'RE GOING TO LOOK VERY HARD AT FUEL SWITCHING AND OTHER TECHNOLOGY ON THAT REFINERY, AND I THINK IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT IF WE DO THAT THAT THIS REFINERY MAY BE ABLE TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. MAY. I'M NOT SAYING IT WILL. I'M SAYING THERE IS A GOOD POTENTIAL WITH SOME VERY ADVANCED TECHNOLOGIES AND FUEL SWITCHING THAT WE CAN MITIGATE SOME OF THE IMPACT THAT WE CONSIDER IMPORTANT. NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON A COUPLE OTHER THINGS. IT'S ALSO BEEN BROUGHT OUT HERE THE BIG DISCUSS 10 N ABOUT UTILIZING THIS FUEL IN THIS AREA. IT'S A VERY UNFORTUNATE SITUATION. I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA TO BRING IN A REFINERY THAT'S A CLEAN-RUNNING REFINERY THAT COULD BE USED TO INSURE THAT YOUR LOCALITY HAS SUFFICIENT CLEAN-BURNING FUEL AVAILABLE TO IT. IT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY, IT'S GOOD TO KEEP THE HOUSE WARM. OKAY. BECAUSE THESE THINGS,MAY GET VERY BAD AS FAR AS ENERGY IS CONCERNED. BUT IT IS ALSO UNFORTUNATE THAT- WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD ENERGY POLICY. WE HAVE A STATE COMMISSION WHO HAS JUST STARTED UP. WE HAVE THE PUBLIC ------- 1 UTILITIES COMMISSION, WE HAD THE FEDERAL ENERGY COMMISSION. 2 THEY ALL HAVE A HAND IN HERE, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE 3 GOING TO DO. 4 NOW, MR. BEAN HAS INDICATED THAT THE PURPOSE 5 OF HIS REFINERY WAS TO SAVE OUR AIR. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THAT. 6 [ THINK THEY MIGHT HAVE SOME IDEA OF MAKING A COUPLE. OF 7 DOLLARS ON THE SIDE. 8 (APPLAUSE) 9 AND I THINK THAT SDGSE MIGHT STAND TO MAKE A COUPLE 10 OF DOLLARS ON THE SIDE BECAUSE THEY HAVE CONTRACTS FOR FUEL II NOW, AND THEY CAN GET IT CHEAPER. SO ALTHOUGH IT MAY DO US 12 SOME GOOD IN THE REGION, I THINK INDEED WHEN YOU'RE TALKING 13 ABOUT A CORPORATE STRUCTURE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PROFITS. 14 AND THAT'S THEIR PURPOSE. AND IF IT HELPS US ON THE SIDE, 15 THAT'S GREAT, BUT 1 HAD TO GET THAT BARB IN BECAUSE WE GET 16 A LITTLE BIT ALIENATED WHEN SOMEONE COMES IN WITH A REFINERY 17 AND SAYS IT'S GOING TO HELP MY AIR QUALITY AND THAT'S THE 18 PURPOSE OF IT. I DOUBT IF THAT'S THE PURPOSE. 19 SO, WHAT THIS DISTRICT IS GOING TO HAVE TO DO, 20 AND THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO, IS TO EVALUATE THIS REFINERY 21 UNDER A WORSE-CASE CONDITION, AND WE CANNOT EVALUATE IT WITH 22 ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE POWER,OR KNOW THERE IS - 23 THE POWER TO CONTROL. SO, WE'RE ONLY GOING TO EVALUATE IT 24 ON THOSE ASSUMPTIONS THAT WE CAN PUT ON A PERMIT TO OPERATE. 25 NOW, THAT MEANS WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TRADE OFF SOME ------- 1 REGIONAL BENEFITS VERSUS LOCAL BECAUSE, AS FAR AS WE CAN SEE, 2 THERE'S NO GUARANTEE AT ALL THAT AT ANY TIME THE RESULTS --• j i 3 OR THE OUTPUT FROM THAT REFINERY MAY GO TO SOMEONE ELSE. 4 FOR EXAMPLE, SUPPOSE WE DO GET INTO AN ENERGY CRISIS AND 5 THERE'S PROBLEMS BACK EAST. YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE BIGGER 6 PROBLEMS WITH S02 THAN WE DO AT THIS TIME. THERE'S NO DOUBT 7 THERE'S A GOOD POSSIBILITY THIS REFINERY WON'T EVEN GET 8 FEED STOCK UNLESS ITS PRODUCT GOES BACK EAST, AT LEAST FOR 9 AN INTERIM PERIOD, IF THERE IS AN EMERGENCY. 10 YOU KNOW, YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE THE ASSUMPTION 11 THAT YOU'RE GOING TO USE IT HERE IF YOU HAVE ALL THE PUBLIC 12 UTILITIES COMMISSION, THE FEDERALS WHO REGULATE THE OUTPUT 13 AND ACTUALLY THE INPUT INTO THE THING, AND YOU HAVE NO 14 CONTROL OVER IT. AND SO 1 THINK FOR OUR PURPOSE WE'RE GOING 15 TO HAVE TO JUST SAY A SIMPLE WORSE-CASE BIT. THAT THING 15 WILL HAVE TO STAND ON ITS OWN, YOU KNOW, AND NOT POLLUTE IN 17 A LOCALIZED AREA. AND THEN WE CAN GIVE A LEGAL AND VALID 18 PERMIT TO OPERATE IF IT CAN DO THAT. 19 IT'S UNFORTUNATE. ! WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE EPA 20 AND THE ARB GET TOGETHER AND START PUTTING PRESSURE ON THESE 21 FEDS AND STATE PEOPLE TO GET THEIR STUFF TOGETHER AS FAR AS 22 ENERGY IS CONCERNED SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY GET SOMETHING 23 IN HERE THAT WOULD INSURE THAT WE WOULD HAVE SOME DECENT 24 FUELS FOR USING IN OUR POWER GENERATION AND KNOW THAT'S 25 WHAT IT IS. IT'S A'GREAT IDEA EXCEPT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S ------- 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 GOING TO HAPPEN. ALL YOU KNOW FOR SURE IS THAT SOMEBODY WANTS TO BUILD A REFINERY HERE, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE OUTPUT OF IT. YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE A THING. THERE ARE A COUPLE AREAS OF CONCERN THAT I HAVE HEARD SOME TESTIMONY ON AND 1 WANT TO BRING THEM UP HERE. THERE WAS A STATEMENT MADE BY EPA THAT SDGSE MAY NOT HAVE HALF-PERCENT OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL IN THE FUTURE. NOW, THAT CONCERNS ME BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE LOOKING AT THE MACARIO -- NOT THE MACARIO, THE ENC1NA 5 INSTALLATION, WE DID CHECK WITH SDGSE, AND WE WERE ASSURED AND WE WERE -SHOWN CONTRACTS FOR HALF-PERCENT FUEL THAT GO OUT TO, SAY, AROUND 1985- DID YOU GET THAT, FRANK, FROM SDGSE? MR. COVINGTON: THAT THEY WOULD NOT? MR. SW1CKER: WE HAD INDICATION THAT THEY HAD THIS CONTRACT. THE INDICATION WE HAD WAS THAT THEY HAD CONTRACTS FOR FUEL BUT THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE WHERE THE FUEL WOULD COME FROM TO FULFILL THOSE CONTRACTS. MR. SOMMERV1LLE: AGAIN, WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A CORPORATION WHO TELLS YOU ONE THING, DEPENDING ON WHAT THEIR PURPOSE IS, EVIDENTLY. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU,,MR. SOMMERVILLE. MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME QUESTIONS. MR. COVINGTON: TWO POINTS. AM i UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT WILL NOT BE ABLE ------- 53 1 TO ACT BEFORE OCTOBER? IS THAT YOUR PRESENT TIME TABLE? 2 , MR. SOMMERVILLE: NO, 1 DON'T THINK -- WE DON'T 3 HAVE THE RESTRICTIONS THAT YOU HAVE, AND IN ALL DEFFERENCE 4 TO EPA, FOLKS, THEIR REGULATIONS REQUIRE A PRETTY STRICT TIME 5 FRAME FOR WHICH INFORMATION COMES IN AND WHICH THEY COME UP 6 WITH A SOLUTION OR AN ANSWER, AND WE THINK THAT EPA IN 7 REGION 9 COULD USE THIS EXPERIENCE VERY WELL TO GO BACK TO 8 THEIR HEADQUARTERS AND GET THAT RULE CHANGED BECAUSE YOU 9 SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE A COMPLEX INSTALLATION LIKE A REFINERY 10 AND ATTEMPT TO COMPLETELY REVIEW THAT TOTAL INSTALLATION FOR 'll EMISSIONS, NOT JUST THE STANDARD ONES THAT AFFECT YOUR LIFE, 12 BUT THE STICKY ONES, THE ONE-S THAT ARE ODOROUS, AND TRY TO 13 FIGURE OUT IF THE CONTROLS ARE ADEQUATE ON THAT THING, TRY 14 TO FIGURE OUT IF THE IMPACT, THE LOCALIZED IMPACT, IS GOING 15 TO BE SIGNIFICANT OR NOT. THE SYNERG1STIC EFFECTS BETWEEN 16 THE REGION AND THE OTHER INSTALLATIONS. THAT'S.A BIG JOB, 17 AND WE JUST DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE FINISHED WITH THAT 18 JOB UNTIL ABOUT THAT TIME. 19 MR. COVINGTON: ONE LAST QUESTION. GOING BACK 20 TO THE INITIAL TESTIMONY OF THE GENTLEMAN FROM THE LEUCAD1A 21 TOWN COUNCIL, PART OF THAT DEALT WITH HIS CONCERNS ABOUT THE 22 BUILD-OUT, THE POSSIBILITY OF ATTRACTING SATELLITE INDUSTRIES, 23 THE CREATION OF A PETROCHEMICAL COMPLEX, AS I UNDERSTOOD HIM. 24 DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE YOU COULD ADD AT THIS POINT AS TO 25 WHAT THE GENERAL PLAN CALLS FOR AS TO EXACTLY WHAT IS THE LAND ------- 1 1 USE SITUATION, THE ZONING SITUATION? 2 MR. SOMMERVILLE: WELL, THE LAND USE -- IT'S IN 3 AN INDUSTRIAL PARK AREA. WHETHER IT'S LIGHT OR HEAVY AT 4 THIS POINT, 1 DON'T KNOW, AS FAR AS THE ZONING AND LAND USE. 5 I BELIEVE IT'S OWNED BY SDGSE, AND THEY WANT TO USE THAT AS 6 AN INDUSTRIAL PARK. IT'S THE AREA RIGHT UP ALONGSIDE THE 7 AIRPORT. I WOULD JUST CAUTION YOU TO THE POINT THAT IT 8 DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE WHAT THE LAND USE DESIGNATION IS 9 TODAY OR WHAT THE ZONING IS TODAY BECAUSE TOMORROW IT CAN BE 10 CHANGED. (APPLAUSE) 11 MR. COV1NGTON: LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN ACTION. 12 I HAVE NO OTHER COMMENT. THANK YOU. 13 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. SOMMERVILLE. 14 (APPLAUSE) 15 WE'RE ABOUT TO TAKE A BREAK, BUT FIRST WE HAVE 16 SOME HOUSEKEEPING FUNCTIONS. 17 IT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME THE SPEAKERS WERE NOT 18 ALL IDENTIFIED. MR. KEN SCHULTZ WAS FROM THE LEUCADIA TOWN 19 COUNCIL; MR. BRUCE BEAN, AS YOU MIGHT HAVE SUSPECTED, WAS 20 FROM THE MACARIO REFINERY; AND MR. JONES REPRESENTING HIMSELF. 21 THE LAST SPEAKER, MR. RICH SOMMERVILLE, WAS FROM THE SAN DIEGO 22 AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT. 23 WE ARE NOW GOING TO TAKE A RECESS FOR THE 24 PURPOSES OF THE COURT REPORTER, AND WE WILL HAVE A QUEST10N- 25 AND-ANSWER PERIOD. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 55 NOW, TO GET THIS THING MOVING ALONG AS EXPEDI- T10USLY AS POSSIBLE—AND I DO OBSERVE THE HOUR--WE WOULD LIKE TO RECONVENE AT 11:30. I CANNOT HELP BUT NOTICE THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WISH TO SPEAK FOR THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE. WE ARE HERE TO HEAR EVERYONE WHO WISHES TO SPEAK; BUT IF THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE HAS A SINGLE SPEAKER WHO CAN PRESENT THEIR CASE FOR THEM AND THE REST CAN CONCUR IN HIS REMARKS, THIS WILL BE APPRECIATED. HOWEVER, IF THAT CAN'T BE DONE, WE WILL HEAR EVERYBODY WHO WISHES TO SPEAK. YOU MIGHT THINK ABOUT THAT BETWEEN NOW AND 11:30. WE WILL NOW STAND AT RECESS UNTIL THAT TIME. (RECESS) CHAIRMAN WALKER: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE WOULD LIKE TO RECONVENE THE HEARING. FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING FUNCTIONS TO PERFORM. THERE WERE SOME EXHIBITS THAT WERE PRESENTED THAT HAVE NOT BEEN NUMBERED AND IDENTIFIED ON THE RECORD. EXHIBIT 13 WILL BE THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY'S NEWS RELEASE DATED AUGUST 20TH, 1975. EXHIBIT 14 WILL BE THE WRITTEN REMARKS OF MR. K. L. SCHULTZ, PRESIDENT OF THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL. 1 WAS HANDED A WRITTEN DOCUMENT PRIOR TO THE HEARING FROM 23 i MR. ALLAN 0. KELLY, A ONE-PAGE LETTER WITH A MAP ATTACHED 24 25 TO IT, AND I HAVE MARKED THAT EXHIBIT 15. THE SLIDE THAT WAS PRESENTED BY MR. SOMMERVILLE ------- 56 1 WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 16. AND I HAVE BEEN ASSURED THAT THE 2 SLIDES PRESENTED BY THE MACAR10 REFINERY WILL BE PRODUCED 3 AND PRESENTED, AND THEY WILL BE MARKED IN ORDER WHEN THEY'RE 4 PRESENTED. 5 IN ACCORDANCE WITH OUR REQUEST EARLIER, WE HAVE 6 ASKED THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE IF THEY HAVE A PRINCIPAL 7 SPEAKER, AND MR. DWIGHT WORDEN WILL BE CALLED ON AT THIS TIME 8 MR. WORDEN IS AN ATTORNEY FOR THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE 9 AND IS LOCATED IN SOLANA BEACH. 10 MR- WORDEN: THANK YOU, MR.- WALKER. I AM AN II ATTORNEY REPRESENTING THE LEGAL PANEL FOR CARLSBAD COMMUNITY 12 CAUSE. MY OFFICE IS IN SOLANA BEACH. 13 THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE IS A CIVIC GROUP, 14 AS MOST OF YOU KNOW, COMPRISED OF SEVERAL HUNDRED MEMBERS J5 IN THE CARLSBAD AREA. WE ARE CONCERNED WITH OTHER PROJECTS 16 BESIDES THE REFINERY, ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE SPENT A LOT OF 17 TIME RESEARCHING AND INVESTIGATING THIS REFINERY. I HAVE 18 SOME WRITTEN COMMENTS THAT WERE PREPARED BY THE LEGAL PANEL 19 TO SUBMIT INTO EVIDENCE AND WILL HAND THOSE IN AT THIS TIME, 20 MANY OF THE PO-INTS THAT HAVE BEEN RAISED ALREADY. I WILL 2] JUST TOUCH LIGHTLY ON THOSE AND HIT SOME MORE DETAIL ON SOME 22 OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN POINTED OUT SO FAR. 23 FIRST, I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT OUR BASIC POINT 24 IS THAT THE EPA HAS ABUSED ITS DISCRETION IN MAKING A 25 PRELIMINARY APPROVAL OF THE REFINERY. THEY HAVE NOT ACTED ------- 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 57 IN A PROPER MANNER UNDER THE REGULATIONS THAT GOVERN THEM. THEY HAVE CONSIDERED ONLY SOME OF THE ADVERSE AIR QUALITY IMPACT THAT WILL RESULT FROM THE REFINERY. UNDER THEIR INITIAL IMPACT APPRAISAL, IT'S INDICATED AT PAGE 3, IF JUST THE EMISSIONS COMING OUT OF THE SMOKE STACKS WERE CONSIDERED, THE PROJECT COULD NOT BE APPROVED. THE BASIS OF THE APPROVAL IS THERE WILL BE THIS NET OVERALL REDUCTION IN THE REGION WHEN YOU BALANCE THE DIRECT EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY AGAINST THE BENEFICIAL IMPACTS OF THE USE OF LOW-POLLUTING FUEL. AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT, THAT ASSUMPTION IS SUBJECT TO QUESTION, AND 1 12 WOULD LIKE TO READ TWO SHORT STATEMENTS. THE FIRST IS FROM EXHIBIT 8, WHICH IS THE LETTER FROM THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMINISTRATION REFERRED TO WHICH, IN DISCUSSING THAT ASSUMPTION SAYS: "HOWEVER, THE ASSUMPTION IN YOUR ANALYSIS THAT THE ENTIRE 100 MMCF PER DAY OF SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS PRODUCED BY THE MACARIO REFINERY WILL BE UTILIZED IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION IN LIEU OF ALTERNATE FUELS IS WITHOUT BASIS." THE SECOND STATEMENT IS FROM EXHIBIT 9, WHICH IS A LETTER FROM THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION REFERRED TO, AND IT'S A DIRECT RESPONSE TO MR. BEAN'S STATEMENT THAT THE PUC PRESENTLY DOESN'T HAVE ANY AUTHORITY TO REALLOCATE FUEL. i.THE SHORTAGE OF NATURAL GAS MIGHT CAUSE ACTION ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ! 24 25 58 TO BE TAKEN TO ALLOCATE THE MANUFACTURED GAS TO OTHER USES IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WHICH CANNOT USE NON-GASEOUS ALTERNATE FUELS." WE FEEL, FIRST, EPA IS ABUSING IT'S DISCRETION BY^BALANCING THE REGIONAL IMPACT AGAINST THE LOCAL IMPACT. THE REGULATIONS, AS STATED IN 52.233(6) OF THE C.F.R. INDICATES THEY HAVE CONSIDERED IMPACTS FROM THE SOURCE; BUT IF THEY ARE GOING TO BALANCE REGIONAL IMPACTS, THEY MUST BALANCE THE ADVERSE REGIONAL IMPACTS AS WELL AS THE BENEFICIAL REGIONAL IMPACTS. THEY HAVE CONSIDERED THE BENEFICIAL IMPACTS ON THE ASSUMPTION THE FUEL WILL BE USED HERE. THEY HAVE NOT CONSIDERED THE ADVERSE IMPACTS INDIRECTLY RESULTING FROM THE REFINERY, SUCH AS DIESEL TRUCK TRAFFIC, INCREASED EMISSIONS FROM TANKER TRAFFIC, INCREASED INDUSTRIAL EXPANSION, INCREASED GROWTH POTENTIAL, AND AUTOMOBILE TRAFFIC, AND ALL THE ATTENDANT AIR POLLUTION CONSEQUENCES OF THOSE. SKIPPING OVER A LOT OF OTHER POINTS THAT HAVE BEEN COVERED ADEQUATELY ALREADY, I THINK WE ALSO FEEL THAT EPA HAS NOT ADEQUATELY CONSIDERED ALL ALTERNATIVES. ALTHOUGH EPA IS SPECIFICALLY EXEMPTED FROM THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT OF THE NEPA, THE NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ACT, IT IS NOT EXAMPTED FROM THE REST OF THE NATIONAL ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY ACT, AND THAT ACT, IN SECTION 102(2)(D) REQUIRES THAT ALTERNATIVES TO THE PROJECT BE CONSIDERED. AS WE POINTED OUT, A VERY VIABLE ALTERNATIVE IS ------- 59 1 TO LOCATE THE REFINERY ELSEWHERE AND PUT THE FUELS TO USE 2 STILL IN SAN DIEGO. AND THERE IS NO BASIS THAT WE CAN SEE 3 IN THE RECORD THAT IN ORDER TO HAVE CLEAN FUELS AVAILABLE I N" 4 SAN DIEGO THE REFINERY MUST BE LOCATED IN SAN DIEGO OR IN 5 CARLSBAD, IN PARTICULAR. 6 FINALLY, WE WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THERE IS 7 SOME QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN RAISED BY THE ZONING, ET CETERA. 8 WE RESEARCHED THIS, AND, GENERALLY, ALTHOUGH IT IS A VERY 9 COMPLICATED PROCESS, THE REFINERY IS GOING TO HAVE TO GO 10 THROUGH TO GET APPROVAL, THE FIRST STAGE: THERE WILL HAVE ]| TO BE AN APPLICATION FOR ANNEXATION TO THE LOCAL AGENCY 12 FORMATION COMMISSION TO ANNEX WHAT IS NOW AN UNINCORPORATED I3 PART OF THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO TO THE CITY OF CARLSBAD, 14 WHICH IS TO BE THE LEAD AGENCY TO PREPARE THE ENVIRONMENTAL 15 IMPACT REPORT. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN DONE YET. GENERAL PLAN • 16 AMENDMENTS WILL BE REQUIRED, A SPECIFIC PLAN WILL BE 17 REQUIRED, PRE-ZONING WILL BE REQUIRED, ON AND ON BEFORE THIS 18 PROJECT GETS APPROVAL. 19 WE FEEL THAT IT WOULD BE MORE PRUDENT FOR EPA TO 20 WAIT UNTIL SOME OF THIS IS DONE, SPECIFICALLY UNTIL THE APCD 2i HAS COMPLETED THEIR WORK AND UNTIL AN EIR IS AVAILABLE. 22 EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE EXEMPTED UNDER NEPA, IT WOULD BE 23 BENEFICIAL TO HAVE THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE THAT WOULD BE 24 PRESENTED IN AN EIR, WHICH WILL BE FORTHCOMING. 25 AND, FINALLY, 1 WOULD JUST LIKE TO SUPPORT THE ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 STATEMENTS THAT MR. SOMMERVILLE MADE ON BEHALF OF THE APCD THAT A VERY PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE IN MITIGATING THE MEASURE IS TO REQUIRE THE USE OF SOME OTHER FUELS. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. MR. WORDEN, DID YOU SAY YOU HAVE SOME MATTERS YOU WANT TO OFFER AS EXHIBITS? MR. VJORDEN: YES. HE'S HANDING THEM TO YOU. CHAIRMAN WALKER: EARLIER IT WAS SAID WE WERE NOT GOING TO PERMIT OPEN DEBATE, BUT SEVERAL PEOPLE ASKED IF THEY CAN ASK QUESTIONS. IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS YOU WISH TO ADDRESS EITHER TO THE PANEL OR TO ANY PARTICULAR SPEAKER, IF YOU WILL PUT THEM IN WRITING AND HAND THEM TO THE YOUNG LADY AT MY RIGHT, WE WILL BE GLAD TO AT LEAST PUT THEM IN THE RECORD AND ANSWER THEM IF WE CAN. I'M NOT SURE WE CAN ANSWER EVERY QUESTION THAT'S POSED TO US. 1 HAVE RECEIVED ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR PAGES ON THE LETTERHEAD OF WORDEN £ WILLIAMS, ATTORNEYS AT LAW, AS DESCRIBED HERE, AND THIS WILL BE MARKED AS EXHIBIT 17. I WILL NOW CALL ON MR. R. R. RICHARDSON, 7325 EL PASO STREET, LA MESA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING THE SAN DIEGO LABOR COUNCIL. MR. RICHARDSON: MEMBERS OF THE PANEL OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY, MY NAME IS R. R. RICHARDSON. ------- I I'M SECRETARY-TREASURER OF THE SAN DIEGO LABOR COUNCIL. AND 2 FROM THE START I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE IT UNDERSTOOD THAT I'M 3 NOT AN EXPERTEE IN ONE TYPE OF FUEL OVER ANOTHER, THE ANSWER 4 TO OUR ENERGY CRISIS, BUT 1 DO UNDERSTAND THE SIMPLE WORKINGS 5 OF ECONOMIC IMPACT ON PEOPLE. THAT'S THE NAME OF MY JOB. 6 AS SECRETARY OF THE LABOR COUNCIL, I REPRESENT 7 140,000 MEMBERS IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. OF THIS 140,000, 8 APPROXIMATELY 30,000 LIVE IN NORTH COUNTY. OF THAT 30,000 9 IN NORTH COUNTY, IN THE BUILDING TRADES PART OF THE 30,000 10 MEMBERS OF THE BUILDING TRADES UNION WE HAVE 28 TO 30 PERCENT 1] UNEMPLOYMENT. SPEAKING OF NORTH COUNTY ONLY. THESE 30,000 12 MEMBERS OF ORGANIZED LABOR THAT LIVE IN NORTH COUNTY ARE 13 TAX PAYERS AND CONCERNED CITIZENS, THE SAME AS YOU ARE. 14 THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY LABOR COUNCIL STRONGLY 15 SUPPORTS THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE REFINERY CONTEMPLATED BY 16 MACARIO REFINERY BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT IT WILL HAVE ON OUR 17 ALREADY SICK ECONOMY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, WHICH INCLUDES 18 NORTH COUNTY. THE BUILDING OF THIS REFINERY WOULD CREATE 19 APPROXIMATELY 4,000,000 MAN HOURS OF WORK AND, AT A PEAK, 20 AN EMPLOYMENT FIGURE OF 2,200 PEOPLE IN THE CONSTRUCTION ONLY. 21 AFTER CONSTRUCTION, THEN THE MAINTENANCE, WHICH FIGURES I DO 22 NOT HAVE AT MY FINGERTIPS. 23 THIS WILL STIMULATE THE ECONOMY IN NORTH COUNTY, 24 WHICH WOULD PROFIT BY AN INCREASE IN BUSINESS AND PROFITS TO 25 THE BUTCHER, THE BAKER, THE BARBER, THE RESTAURANT OWNER, THE ------- 62 1 LANDLORD WHO IS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO HAVE APARTMENTS OR INCOME j 2 PROPERTY. I'M SURE MANY OF OUR PEOPLE RENT THOSE PLACES. 3 IT WOULD INSURE THEM THE SECURITY OF THEIR RENT FOR THEIR 4 INCOME. 5 1 HAVE NOT SEEN OR HEARD WHERE THE BUILDING OF 6 THIS PLANT WOULD CREATE AN EYESORE. 1 HAVE HEARD- THIS 7 MORNING FOR THE FIRST TIME IT WILL BE IN A CANYON. AND 1 8 ALSO DID NOT HEAR OR SEE WHERE IT WOULD BE IN CON-FLICT OF 9 ANY PLANNING. AND FROM WHAT I'VE .HEARD HERE THIS MORNING, 10 IT DOES MEET ALL MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS EXCEPT THE TECHNI- 11 CALITIES OF THE FIGURES WE HAVE HEARD HERE FROM BOTH SIDES. 12 AND ALSO 1 HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING FROM ONE INDIVIDUAL IT 13 IS HIS CONCEPT THAT IT WILL BE BLACK SMOKE, THICK BLACK 14 SMOKE ROLLING OUT OF THE STACKS, WHICH IS, ACCORDING TO WHAT 15 1 HAVE HEARD AND TALKED TO MR. BEAN, IS NOT SO. THIS WILL 16 NOT BE THE FACT WITH THIS PARTICULAR PLANT. 17 IN 1933 I MOVED TO CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA, AND I 18 LIVED HERE FOR 1938, '39, AND 1940. AT THAT TIME CARLSBAD 19 AND OCEANS IDE WERE JUST SMALL LITTLE ONE-HORSE TOWNS. 20 CARLSBAD HAD AN APPROXIMATE POPULAT1ON--AND I REMEMBER THE 21 SIGN OUTSIDE THE CITY LIM1TS--SOME APPROXIMATE 1600 TO 2000 22 PEOPLE. OCEANS!DE, PRIOR TO THE BUILDING OF CAMP PENDLETON, 23 ! HAD APPROXIMATELY 3000 OR 3300. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING NORTH 24 COUNTY HASN'T COME A LONG WAYS, AND 1 THINK DUE TO THE FACT 25 THEY HAVE COME A LONG WAYS IS BECAUSE THEY WERE WILLING TO ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MEET THE CHALLENGES, CHANGE WITH THE TIMES IN WHICH WE WERE LIVING, AND TO CONTINUE TO DO WHAT WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST AND IN THE FUTURE. I'M SURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CONTINUE TO MEET THE CHANGES, MEET THE CHALLENGES, ADJUST OURSELVES TO THE THINGS THAT WE NEED IN THE WAY OF SERVICES. I'M ALSO SURE THAT IF THE ATTITUDE OF THE OPPOSITION TO THE BUILDING OF THIS PLANT WAS THE SAME ATTITUDE OF CERTAIN PEOPLE AT THE TIME 1 MOVED TO CARLSBAD IN 1938 YOU WOULD NOT EVEN BE LIVING IN NORTH COUNTY TODAY BECAUSE THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH HOUSING, THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH PLACES TO BUY YOUR MERCHANDISE, YOUR GROCERIES; THERE WOULD NOT BE ENOUGH SERVICES FOR YOUR UTILITIES. YOU WOULD NOT EVEN, MAYBE, BE SITTING IN THIS ROOM TODAY IF THE SAME ATTITUDE PREVAILED THEN. THE LABOR MOVEMENT IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY HAS ALWAYS BEEN A STRONG SUPPORTER FOR CLEAN AIR, FOR PURE AIR, FOR OPEN SPACES, PARKS, RECREATIONAL, ET CETERA. BUT WHEN IT DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY INVOLVES THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE WE REPRESENT IN THE WORKING PEOPLE OF OUR COMMUNITY, INCLUDING NORTH COUNTY, WE GET REAL CONCERNED AND LOOK AT IT PRETTY DEEP. THEN WE TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT IT. AS OUR BROTHER SAID THIS MORNING, WHICH i THOUGHT WAS VERY TIMELY, WE LIKE CLEAN AIR, WE LIKE PURE WATER. BUT IF YOU HAVE NOTHING IN YOUR STOMACH, YOU DON'T ENJOY THAT, AND THAT'S WHAT THE NAME OF THE GAME IS. l_ ------- 1 WISH TO THANK THOSE WHO MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR THIS HEARING HERE TODAY, MEMBERS OF THE PANEL, WHICH IN TURN MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO MAKE MY FEW REMARKS HERE TODAY. 5 1 ALSO UNDERSTAND, IN CLOSING, THIS PARTICULAR 6 PARCEL OF LAND AT PRESENT IS IN THE UNINCORPORATED PART OF THE COUNTY, WHICH MEANS IT'S NOT ON THE TAX ROLLS. IF THIS PLANT IS BUILT, I'M SURE IT WILL COME ON THE TAX ROLLS OF PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, WHICH WILL RELIEVE THE TAX BURDENS ON 10 YOU THAT ARE CAUGHT IN A FIXED INCOME AND YOU THAT HAVE TO 1] PAY THE PROPERTY TAXES IN NORTH COUNTY OR WHATEVER PARTICULAR 12 CITY YOU'RE IN. 13 AGAIN, 1 WISH TO URGE THE PANEL THAT IN THEIR 14 FINAL APPROVAL THEY ACCEPT THE APPLICATION FOR THE CONSTRUCTIC 15 OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY.' THANK YOU. 16 (APPLAUSE) 17 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. RICHARDSON. 18 ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS OF MR. RICHARDSON FROM 19 THE PANEL? 20 NEXT, ACCORDING TO OUR ORDER, IS MR. DEE LOGSTON. 21 MR. LOGSTON: MY NAME is DEE LOGSTON. I'M A 22 RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY AND NOT NORTH COUNTY, BUT I HAVE 23 BEEN A RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY FOR QUITE A NUMBER OF 24 YEARS. 25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR ADDRESS. N ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 MR. LOGSTON: I LIVE IN CHULA VISTA, 100 WOODLAWN AVENUE IN CHULA VISTA. I LIVE VERY NEAR A POWER-GENERATING FACILITY IN CHULA VISTA. IT'S BEEN OPERATED BY SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY. I HAVE LIVED QUITE CLOSE TO MANY OTHER GENERATING PLANTS WHERE I HAVE LIVED IN THE PAST. KANSAS CITY POWER £ ELECTRIC COMPANY. IN THE PAST I HAVE SEEN COMPANIES THAT BURNED COAL, THAT GENERATE THEIR ELECTRICITY. THEY BURN FUEL OIL. AND IN THE PAST LIKE THAT IT HASN'T BEEN TOO PLEASANT TO LIVE AROUND THOSE KINDS OF PLANTS. YOU GOT ONE RIGHT HERE IN ENCINA NOW THAT'S GENERATING ITS POWER WITH A GRADE OF FUEL OIL THAT THEY'RE ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE AND MAKE IT BETTER TO CUT DOWN ON THE POLLUTION. AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE BUILDING OF THIS REFINERY THAT THEY'R TALKING ABOUT. YOU HAVE ALREADY HEARD FROM SOME PRIOR TESTIMONY THIS MORNING THAT PROBABLY IN '78, '79 AND YEARS IN THE FUTURE, TEN YEARS IN THE FUTURE, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THIS AREA THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE BY THE PRODUCTION OF POWER ON THIS PLANT IF THEY CONTINUE TO USE THE FUEL OILS . THAT THEY'RE USING NOW AND THE FUEL THAT THEY MAY BE FORCED TO USE IN THE FUTURE. IF WE HAVE A FUEL OIL SHORTAGE, WHICH WE HAVE HAD IN THE PAST, IT'S POSSIBLE THEY'RE GOING TO BURN EVEN A LOWER GRADE OF FUEL. DON'T THINK FOR A MINUTE THEY'RE GOING ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 TO SHUT THAT PLANT DOWN IF THEY CAN'T GET THE FUEL THEY'RE USING NOW. BECAUSE IF YOU THINK THAT'S THE CASE, YOU'RE GOING TO BE SITTING OUT HERE WITH YOUR CANDLES AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE SITTING HERE WITHOUT HEAT IN YOUR HOME BECAUSE YOU CAN'T RUN YOUR HEATING SYSTEMS. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN. IF IT REALLY COMES TO THIS, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN. THERE'S MANY PLANTS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE BURNING OIL, WHICH IS A HIGHER POLLUTANT THAN COAL. BUT IF IT COMES THAT THEY CAN'T HAVE OIL AS A SUPPLY OF FUEL, THEY WILL BURN COAL IN THAT PLANT TO GENERATE THEIR STEAM, TO GENERATE THAT ENERGY. THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN. IF THIS PLANT IS BUILT, THIS REFINERY IS BUILT, YOU WILL GET A LOWER GRADE OF FUEL OIL. NATURAL GAS THAT'S GOING TO BE A BY-PRODUCT OF THIS PLANT, THIS' IN ITSELF IS GOING TO CUT DOWN ON THE POLLUTION. IT'S POSSIBLE THIS COMPANY, THIS REFINERY, IS GOING TO USE THEIR OWN PRODUCT WHEN THEY GET THIS THING GOING TO REALLY RUN THEIR PLANT OFF OF, AND IT WAS THE TESTIMONY HERE IF THEY USE THE NATURAL GAS TO OPERATE ON, THE NAPTHAS AND WHATEVER ELSE THEY USE IN THERE, THAT THEY'RE GOING TO CUT ONE-FOURTH ON THE POLLUTANTS. SO, 1 THINK IF YOU GET YOUR HEAD IN -GEAR AND START THINKING OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TEN YEARS FROM NOW, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE AROUND HERE, YOU WILL BE SITTING HERE WITH THE SAME PLANT THAT YOU HAVE OVER HERE RIGHT NOW, AND IT WILL BE GENERATING STEAM -- OR GENERATING ELECTRICITY THE SAME AS IT I ------- 67 1 NOW WITH A FUEL OIL THAT HAS MORE POLLUTANTS IN THE AIR THAN j 2 YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW. 3 AND WITH THIS REFINERY BEING BUILT IN HERE, SURE, 4 YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE SOME KIND OF AIR POLLUTION COMING FROM 5 THIS REFINERY, SMALL AMOUNT, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE 6 CONTROLLED, BUT YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO HAVE FUEL BURNERS THAT'S 7 GOING TO CUT DOWN ON THE POLLUTANTS THAT YOU WILL BE GETTING 8 NOW AND GETTING IN THE FUTURE, SO YOU SHOULD BE THINKING A 9 LITTLE BIT. 10 CHAIRMAN WALKER: JUST A MINUTE. THIS IS NOT 11 ORGANIZED AS A DEBATE BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN THE 12 COMMUNITY. WE CAME DOWN HERE TO HEAR WHAT THE PEOPLE HAVE 13 TO SAY TO US. YOU CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER ALMOST ANY TIME. 14 SO, PLEASE ADDRESS THE REMARKS TO US. 1 F YOU HAVE ANY. 15 QUESTIONS YOU WISH TO HAVE ADDRESSED, PLEASE WRITE THEM 16 DOWN, AND WE WILL TRY TO GET THEM TO THE RIGHT PERSON AND 17 WE WILL ANSWER THEM, IF POSSIBLE. IF NOT, WE WILL PUT THEM 18 IN THE RECORD AS SUCH, BUT WE ARE NEVER GOING TO GET THROUGH 19 IF WE HAVE AN INTERNAL DEBATE. 20 GO AHEAD. 21 MR. LOGSTON: THANK YOU, MR. CHAIRMAN, i THINK 22 RIGHT AT THAT 1 WILL SHUT IT OFF, AND THANKS FOR THE 23 OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAR HERE. 24 (APPLAUSE) 25 THANKS FOR THE INCONSIDERATE BOOS. IT SHOWS ------- 68 1 YOU'RE ENTITLED TO YOUR VIEWS. 2 (APPLAUSE) 3 CHAIRMAN WALKER: BEFORE WE GO ON TO THE NEXT 4 SPEAKER: ! SAID WE WOULD ACCEPT WRITTEN QUESTIONS. I HAVE 5 ONE QUESTION HERE THAT IS ADDRESSED GENERALLY, AND I'M NOT 6 SURE WE'RE PREPARED TO ANSWER IT, BUT I'LL PUT 1 T ON THE 7 RECORD: 8 "WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM EFFECT OF REFINERY 9 EMISSION ON THE PERSON WITH A RESPIRATORY DISEASE AND THOSE 10 ENGAGED IN VIGOROUS PHYSICAL ACTIVITY, HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETICS, 11 ET CETERA?" 12 I THINK THERE'S A GREAT DEAL WRITTEN ON THAT. 13 I'M NOT SURE WE'RE PREPARED TO GIVE A DEFINITIVE ANSWER HERE 14 TODAY. 15 MR. COVINGTON: I WOULD SUGGEST, MATT, IT'S A 16 QUESTION THAT I THINK WE NEED TO TALK TO. THERE ARE TWO OR 17 THREE OF THEM THAT HAVE COME UP HERE. AGAIN, WE'RE GOING IS TO EXTEND THE INVITATION TO COME RAP WITH US OFF THE RECORD. 19 WE WOULD BE VERY GLAD TO SPEAK TO THAT QUESTION AND OTHERS 20 LIKE THAT, BUT IT WON'T HELP DEVELOP THE RECORD THAT WE'RE 21 LOOKING FOR RIGHT NOW. 22 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE ONE QUESTION THAT WAS 23 SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED TO MR. RICHARDSON. 1 WILL EDIT IT 24 SLIGHTLY. THE QUESTIONS ASKS IN THREE PARTS: ISN'T IT 25 TRUE THAT CONSTRUCTION TRADITIONALLY BRINGS IN OUTSIDE LABOR? ------- 69 1 DON'T REFINERIES GENERALLY RUN THEMSELVES? AND AREN'T THE 2 CONSTRUCTION WORKERS GOING TO BE TRANSFERRED FROM THE OUTSIDE? * 3 I WILL ADDRESS THE QUESTION FOR THE RECORD. AND 4 IF MR. RICHARDSON WANTS TO REPLY, HE MAY. OTHERWISE, WE WILL 5 LET IT STAND ON THE RECORD. 6 I SEE NO ONE COMING FORWARD, SO 1 WILL ASK 7 SOMEONE ELSE FROM THE AUDIENCE. THE NEXT CARD .IS MR. R. L. 8 BISHOP. IS MR. BISHOP HERE? 9 WOULD YOU GIVE YOUR FULL NAME AND ADDRESS FOR 10 THE RECORD.' n MR. BISHOP: MY NAME IS RICHARD BISHOP. 1 12 REPRESENT THE LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL. 1 HAVE BEEN A CHEMICAL 13 ENGINEER FOR ABOUT 50 OR 60 YEARS. I CAME HERE PRIMARILY 14 TO GET QUESTIONS ANSWERED. MOST HAVE BEEN ANSWERED. AS 15 FAR AS LEUCADIA TOWN COUNCIL SAYING ANYTHING, KEN SCHULTZ 16 DID THE JOB ADEQUATELY. THEREFORE, I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE 17 ANY OF YOUR TIME WITH NONSENSE BECAUSE 1 AM GETTING MY 18 QUESTIONS ANSWERED. 19 (APPLAUSE) 20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. 21 THE NEXT CARD I HAVE IS MR. CHARLES F.--I'M NOT 22 SURE I HAVE THIS NAME RIGHT--FEMELLEY -- 23 MR. TROMBLEY: TROMBLEY, T-R-O-M-B-L-E-Y. 24 CHAIRMAN WALKER: T-R-O-M- --' 25 MR. TROMBLEY: B-L-E-Y. ------- 1 MR. CHAIRMAN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I'M CHUCK 2 TROMBLEY. I REPRESENT THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY BUILDING TRADES 3 COUNCIL. 1 LIVE IN ESCONDIDO. I WORKED IN THE NORTH COUNTY 4 FOR OVER 17 YEARS. MR. RICHARDSON HAS COVERED THE BULK OF 5 WHAT LABOR ISF INTERESTED IN IN THE NORTH COUNTY. 6 TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT WAS PUT BY.SOME 7 MEMBER IN THE AUDIENCE HERE, I WOULD LIKE TO SAY AT THIS 8 TIME THAT THE BUILDING INDUSTRY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY -- NOT 9 ONLY SAN DIEGO COUNTY, IT IS THE LARGEST INDUSTRY IN THE 10 STATE--WE ARE SUFFERING, AND WE ARE SUFFERING BADLY. YOU 11 HAVE HEARD THE ESTIMATE OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE UNEMPLOYED. 12 IT'S ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. 13 TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, WHOEVER THE QUESTIONER 14 WAS, WE HAVE AMPLE PEOPLE IN THIS AREA TO MAN THE JOB. 15 TALKING ABOUT 4,000,000 MAN HOURS. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 16 TAKING PROPERTY THAT'S ADJACENT TO AN AIRPORT, A NOISE 17 POLLUTION AREA, IF YOU WILL, IN THAT CANYON, AND WE'RE 18 TALKING ABOUT PUTTING THAT PROPERTY ON THE PAYING ROLLS OF 19 TAXPAYERS, SO THIS SHOULD REDUCE YOUR TAXES. MY TAXES HAVE 20 DONE NOTHING BUT GONE UP IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. I HOPE 21 IT HASN'T THIS YEAR. BUT I DON'T SEE IT'S GOING TO BE FOR 22 THE RETIRED PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAPPED. WE HAVE MANY CONSTRUC- 23 TION PEOPLE RETIRED WHO ARE TRAPPED BY THIS INCESSANT 24 RAISING OF TAXES. WE ARE VERY INTERESTED IN THAT. AND 25 THESE THINGS, I THINK, ARE PARAMOUNT TO GOOD LIVING, TO I ------- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 71 CLEAN AIR. THERE ISN'T A PERSON IN HERE THAT DOESN'T WANT THE SAME THING. WE'RE LOOKING AT THE PICTURE FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES. WE ALL WANT CLEAN AIR, WE ALL WANT CLEAN WATER, WE WANT A GOOD ENVIRONMENT, AND WE WANT A GOOD LIVING. I HAVE NEVER SEEN AN ECONOMY THAT WAS A PENNY-PINCHING ECONOMY THAT WASN'T RAIZED TO THE SURFACE. JUST SCRUTINIZE THE CONDITIONS AROUND THE WORLD WHERE YOUR LABOR DOESN'T GET ANY KIND OF MONEY. AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK -- I MEAN RETORT I THINK, MR. SOMMERVILLE. I HAVE NEVER WORKED FOR A BANKRUPT CORPORATION VERY LONG AT ALL. THEY JUST DON'T PAY ANY MONEY. ANY EMPLOYER I EVER WORKED FOR HAD TO MAKE MONEY. THIS IS PART OF THE AMERICAN SYSTEM. AND AS FAR AS THE ATTORNEY FOR COMMON CAUSE AND THE GENTLEMAN FROM LEUCADIA, I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT 80 PERCENT OF THE VEHICLES INVOLVED ARE ALREADY HERE IN THE AREA, THAT THERE ARE GOING TO BE 180 JOBS CREATED OTHER THAN CONSTRUCTION JOBS WHEN THIS THING IS FINISHED. SO, THESE CARS ARE ALREADY HERE. WHAT ARE WE WORRIED ABOUT ON THE ADDED POLLUTION FROM'VEHICLES IN THE AREA? THESE ARE A FEW OF THE COMMENTS. ABOUT 80 PERCENT OF MY COMMENTS WERE TAKEN UP BY MR. RICHARDSON, AND SO I'LL MAKE IT VERY BRIEF AND SHORT. I WOULD LIKE VERY MUCH TO SEE THAT THIS PERMIT BE GRANTED TO MACARIO TO BUILD THIS ------- 72 1 PLANT BECAUSE I THINK IT WILL BE AN ASSET TO THE COMMUNITY. 2 IT WILL BE AN ASSET TO EVERY PERSON IN THIS ROOM. THE FUEL 3 TECHNICIANS, THE WAY THEY HAVE BEEN GIVING US THE BUSINESS 4 ON OIL, WE MIGHT HAVE THAT RECUR ANY DAY NOW, AND WE SHOULD 5 LOOK FOR DEVELOPMENT IN A SANE AND ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE 6 MANNER. THANK YOU. 7 (APPLAUSE) 8 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I OBSERVE THE HOUR. IT IS NOW 9 NOON. AND AS WE ANNOUNCED, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A NOON BREAK 10 UNTIL 1:30. WE HAVE A LARGE DECK OF CARDS LEFT HERE. 11 MR. COVINGTON HAS STATED HE WILL, ON AN OFF-THE-RECORD 12 SESSION, TAKE QUESTIONS AND GIVE SUCH ANSWERS AS WE'RE ABLE 13 TO AT THIS TIME. 14 SO, THE FORMAL HEARING WILL NOW STAND IN RECESS, 15 AND WE WILL TRY TO RECONVENE PROMPTLY AT 1:30. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ------- 73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 SATURDAY AFTERNOON SESSION AUGUST 23, 1975, 1:30 P.M. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THE HOUR HAS ARRIVED TO CONTINUE WITH THIS HEARING. AT THE COMMENCEMENT OF THE HEARING THIS MORNING AT 9:30 WE HAD A RATHER LONG PRESENTATION OF THE BACKGROUND AND THE REASONS WE ARE HERE. LOOKING AROUND THE ROOM, IT LOOKS LIKE 1 AM SEEING FAMILIAR FACES. IF THERE IS ANY NEED TO, WE CAN REPEAT PART OF THAT. BUT IN THE INTEREST OF TIME, 1 WOULD REFRAIN FROM DOING SO UNLESS SOMEBODY WANTS TO KNOW WHAT THIS HEARING IS ALL ABOUT. ALL RIGHT, WE DO HAVE A COUPLE OF ANNOUNCEMENTS TO MAKE HERE, HOUSEKEEPING SORT OF THINGS. A REQUEST HAS 15 I BEEN MADE AS TO HOW A COPY OF THIS RECORD CAN BE REVIEWED i 16 LOCALLY. ORDINARILY, THE AGENCY ONLY HAS COPIES IN ITS 17 REGIONAL OFFICE, BUT A DECISION HAS BEEN MADE THAT AN EXTRA 18 COPY WILL BE PREPARED AND MADE AVAILABLE IN THE CARSLBAD 19 CITY LIBRARY. IT WILL TAKE ABOUT TWO WEEKS. LET'S SAY 20 ABOUT TWO WEEKS TO GET IT PREPARED, READY, AND AVAILABLE 21 AND DOWN TO YOU. WE WILL UNDERTAKE TO DO THIS. 22 WE HAVE QUITE A NUMBER OF CARDS TO BE HANDLED 23 HERE. AND AS IT WAS ANNOUNCED AND RECORDED IN OUR LITTLE 24 i HANDOUT, WHEN WE HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN ONE GROUP 25 AS AGAINST THE OTHER GROUPS, WE WILL DOUBLE UP ON THAT GROUP ------- 1 j SO, DURING THE AFTERNOON WE WILL DOUBLE UP ON THE UNAFFILIATEQ 2 PRIVATE CITIZENS AND TAKE TWO OF THOSE TO ONE OF THE OTHERS. j 3 WE WILL, HOWEVER, TRY TO OTHERWISE KEEP IT TO THE ORDER OF 4 PROCEEDINGS THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED. 5 YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO? 6 MR. COVINGTON: FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION: WE 7 HAVE RECEIVED FROM A FEW OF YOU SOME WRITTEN QUESTIONS WHICH 8 WE WANT TO GET TO AND ANSWER. AS WE HAVE EXPLAINED PRE- 9 V10USLY, WE WILL NOT ATTEMPT TO ON THE RECORD ANSWER YOUR 10 SEVERAL INDIVIDUAL QUESTIONS THAT HAVE COME UP. WE ARE FOR 11 THE PURPOSE OF THE RECORD GETTING YOUR SPECIFIC TESTIMONY 12 TO ENABLE US TO MAKE THE BEST POSSIBLE DECISION.. WE WILL 13 LATER IN THE AFTERNOON TAKE ANOTHER BREAK, AND I WILL EXTEND 14 THE INVITATION ONCE AGAIN FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE QUESTIONS 15 TO SORT OF GATHER AROUND HERE. AND IF WE CAN THEN ANSWER 16 YOUR QUESTIONS, WE WILL DO SO. 17 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. 18 THE NEXT CARD I HAVE IS MR. STANLEY WALLEN. 19 MR. STANLEY WALLEN OF LEUCAD1A, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING 20 HIMSELF. 21 I SEE NO RESPONSE. WE WILL CALL THESE CARDS 22 AGAIN. 23 THE NEXT CARD IS MR. MARK NELSON, CARLSBAD, 24 REPRESENTING CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE. 25 MR. NELSON: MR. WALKER, AS I INDICATED THIS ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 75 MORNING, WE WANTED TO HAVE VICKY ZAMORA SPEAK NEXT FROM OUR GROUP. CHAIRMAN'WALKER: EXCUSE ME? MR. NELSON: AS i TOLD YOU, WE WANT TO HAVE VICKY ZAMORA AS OUR NEXT SPEAKER. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S CORRECT, YOU DID. VICKY ZAMORA, THE OTHERS ARE DEFERRING TO YOU. WOULD YOU STATE YOUR FULL NAME AND WHERE YOU'RE FROM FOR THE RECORD. MS. ZAMORA: MY NAME is VICKY ZAMORA, AND i LIVE AT 3557 MADISON STREET IN CARLSBAD. I AM SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF THE RESEARCH TEAM OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE. THE RESEARCH TEAM IS A 12-MEMBER FACT-FINDING COMMITTEE THAT HAS MET WEEKLY SINCE OCTOBER 1974. OUR RESEARCH CENTERS AROUND THE EFFECTS THE REFINERY WILL HAVE ON OUR CITY AND COUNTY. AND AS A RESULT OF OUR RESEARCH, AND AS A MEANS OF INFORMING THE PUBLIC, WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL FACT SHEETS PRINTED FOR PUBLIC DISTRIBUTION. I WOULD LIKE TO ENTER THE FACT SHEETS INTO THE PUBLIC RECORD AT THIS TIME. THE RESEARCH TEAM FULLY ENDORSES THE RESOLUTION THAT CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE WILL PRESENT, AND STRESSES A NEED FOR A DELAY IN THE EPA PERMIT DECISION. A DECISION BY YOUR AGENCY SHOULD BE BASED SOLELY UPON THE MOST RECENT AND REALiABLE INFORMATION. AT PRESENT, YOU ARE BASING YOUR TENTATIVE APPROVAL UPON INSUFFICIENT, OUTDATED INFORMATION ------- 76 1 AND ASSUMPTIONS. THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT IS 2 PREPARING A MORE ACCURATE AIR ANALYSIS AT THIS TIME, AS YOU 3 HEARD FROM MR. SOMMERVILLE. AND WE ALSO ENDORSE THEIR REQUEST I 4 FOR A DELAY IN YOUR DECISION. j 5 ALSO, U.C. SAN DIEGO PROFESSOR KENT WILSON IS I 6 DEVELOPING A 'STATISTICAL MODEL FOR THE PREDICTION OF AREA- 7 BY-AREA CHANGES IN OX1DANT AIR QUALITY RESULTING FROM 8 STATIONARY SOURCES IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. HE SHOULD ALSO BE 9 CONSULTED BEFORE A DECISION IS MADE. 10 CARLSBAD IS IN A DELICATE LOCATION WHERE AIR ]] CONTAMINANTS ARE CONCERNED. THE DISPERSION OF ATMOSPHERIC 12 CONTAMINANTS IT DETERMINED MAINLY BY WINDS AND THE HEIGHT 13 INTO WHICH CONTAMINANTS ARE MIXED. WIND RECORDS FOR THE 14 AREA THUS FAR HAVE BEEN LIMITED TO THOSE MADE OVER A FIVE-YEAF 15 PERIOD ALONG THE COAST AT THE CITY OF OCEANSIDE DURING THE 16 YEARS 1934 TO 1938. AND, MORE RECENTLY, A FIVE-YEAR STUDY 17 WAS DONE AT PALOMAR AIRPORT EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE AIRPORT 18 EXPANSION. THOSE STUDIES SHOW THAT CARLSBAD'S WIND VELOCITY 19 1S 0 TO 4 KNOTS PER HOUR 48.96 PERCENT OF THE TIME AND 0 TO 20 13 KNOTS PER HOUR 96.63 PERCENT OF THE TIME. 1 HAVE ALSO 21 INCLUDED THE WIND ROSE CHART AS PART OF MY PRESENTATI ON INTO 22 THE PUBLIC RECORD. 23 DURING THE MAJORITY OF THE YEAR, THE MARINE AIR 24 LAYER IS SHALLOW AND THE SEA BREEZE WEAK, THEREBY LESSENING 25 THE MIXING VOLUME, AND RESULTING IN POOR DISPERSION OF I I ------- 1 POLLUTANTS AND AN EXTREME POTENTIAL FOR HIGH AIR POLLUTION. 2 . IT HAS BEEN RECORDED THAT CARLSBAD HAS AIR 3 INVERSION 340 -DAYS OUT OF THE YEAR. DR. JOSEPH BEHAR, 4 ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA'S PROJECT 5 CLEAN AIR HAS STATED THAT SAN DIEGO COUNTY IS MORE PRONE TO 6 AIR POLLUTION THAN ANY OTHER SPOT IN THE NATION BECAUSE OF 7 THE UNIQUE WEATHER CONDITIONS. MAINLY THE AIR INVERSION 8 FACTOR. BEHAR SAID THAT SAN DIEGO HAS MORE INVERSIONS THAN 9 LOS ANGELES. HE ADDED THAT THE AREA SHOULD TAKE THE MOST 10 STRINGENT ACTIONS TO KEEP DOWN THE EMISSION OF POLLUTANTS 11 BY SEVERE CONTROL OF STATIONARY SOURCES. • 12 AS A RESULT OF THESE UNIQUE WEATHER CONDITIONS 13 IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY FROM APRIL THROUGH JUNE 1974, THE FEDERAL 14 HEALTH STANDARDS FOR OXIDANTS WERE EQUALED OR EXCEEDED FOR 15 59 OUT OF 90 DAYS. YOUR OWN AGENCY, THE EPA, STATED AT THE 16 CLEAN AIR CONGRESS IN WASHINGTON, D. C., THAT "SAN DIEGO 17 COUNTY HAS THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL OF AIR POLLUTION EPISODES 18 OF ANY AIR BASIN IN THE NATION." 19 THE RESEARCH TEAM ALSO FEELS THAT THE EPA HAS A 20 RESPONSIBILITY TO EXPLORE THE FEASIBILITY OF ALTERNATIVE 21 SITES WHERE THE LAND USE WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE AND 22 POSSIBLY THE AIR QUALITY IMPACT LESS. 23 IN CONCLUSION, I WOULD LIKE TO REMIND YOU, AS ! 24 OFFICIALS OF THE EPA, .THAT, IN A SENSE, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE 25 FOR THE VERY AIR WE BREATHE. TO APPROVE THIS PERMIT BASED ON ------- 1 INADEQUATE DATA AND FAULTY ASSUMPTIONS IS TO CONTRIBUTE TO 2 THE DEGRADATION OF OUR AIR QUALITY AND, THEREFORE, OUR VERY 3 EXISTENCE. 4 (APPLAUSE) 5 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 6 DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? 7 DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WISH TO OFFER TO US? 8 A COPY OF MISS ZAMORA'S REMARKS AND ATTACHMENTS 9 WILL BE MARKED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THIS RECORD AS EXHIBIT 18. 10 MR. C. E. KOOMS FROM PLAYA AMEDA, SAN DIEGO 11 BUILDING TRADES. 12 NO APPARENT RESPONSE. 13 MR. JOEL PRESCOTT OF CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING 14 HIMSELF. 15 MR. JAMES THOMAS. 16 TED ACKERMAN. 17 MR. ACKERMAN: MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE 18 PANEL, AT THIS TIME, ON BEHALF OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE, I 19 1 PRESENT THE FOLLOWING RESOLUTION. 20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU ARE FROM CARLSBAD, 21 CALIFORNIA? 22 MR. ACKERMAN: CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA. . 23 SUBJECT: REQUEST TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 24 AGENCY FOR A DELAY ON A PERMIT DECISION ON THE PROPOSED 25 MACARIO OIL REFINERY. ------- 79 1 WHEREAS, A LOGICAL APPRAISAL OF THE IMPACT OF 2 THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY UPON THE AIR QUALITY OF 3 CARLSBAD AND NORTH SAN DI'EGO COUNTY TERRITORY IN GENERAL SHOULD INCLUDE THE ADDITIVE IMPACT OF ALL OTHER PENDING OR 5 POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION SOURCES, AND PARTICULARLY THOSE 6 RELATED TO THE OPERATION OF THE PROPOSED REFINERY, SUCH AS THE INCREASE IN OIL DELIVERY AT THE ENCINA TANKER TERMINAL, ADDITIONS TO OIL TANK STORAGE CAPACITY, INCREASE IN POWER GENERATION AT THE ENCINA POWER PLANT, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT 10 OF INDUSTRIES AT THE PROPOSED JAPATUL CORPORATION INDUSTRIAL 11 PARK FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROCESSING OIL REFINERY BY-PRODUCTS 12 AND 13 WHEREAS, ADEQUATE AND UNBIASED AIR POLLUTION 14 ANALYSES CONTINUE TO _BE A PROBLEM EVEN WITH THE LONG- 15 ESTABLISHED PROGRAMS IN AREAS SUCH AS THE LOS ANGELES BASIN 16 AND 17 WHEREAS, THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTI ON .CONTROL 18 DISTRICT FULLY REALIZES THAT THERE IS A NEED FOR A HIGHLY 19 DETAILED AIR POLLUTION ANALYSIS PRIOR TO ANY PERMIT DECISION 20 ON THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY, AND HAS THEREFORE 21 RECOMMENDED A DELAY BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION A*GENCY 22 ON A PERMIT DECISION UNTIL AFTER SUCH AN ANALYSIS CAN BE 23 FINALIZED BY THE APCD AND 24 WHEREAS, CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE, ON THE BASIS 25 THAT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS MAY PROVIDE INFORMATION ------- 80 1 IMPORTANT TO DECISION-MAKING, QUESTIONS THE URGENCY OF ANY 2 AGENCY MAKING A PERMIT DECISION ON A PROJECT PRIOR TO THE 3 PREPARATION OF AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT AND THE COMPLE- 4 TION OF PUBLIC HEARINGS ON SAID REPORT AND 5 WHEREAS, PROPERTY DAMAGE, CONSISTING OF SPOTTING 6 OF AUTOMOBILE PAINT HAS OCCURRED AS A RESULT OF AN INCREASE 7 IN FALLOUT IN THE VICINITY OF AND FOR SOME DISTANCE INLAND 8 FROM THE ENC1NA POWER PLANT SINCE UNIT NO. 4 WAS PLACED IN 9 OPERATION, AND MAY BE AN INDICATION THAT ADDITIONAL DAMAGING 10 FALLOUT MIGHT OCCUR FROM THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY; H NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED THAT THE 12 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY BE REQUESTED TO DELAY A 13 PERMIT DECISION ON THE PROPOSED MACARiO OIL REFINERY UNTIL 14 SUCH TIME AS THE FOLLOWING ITEMS HAVE BEEN FINALIZED: 15 1. A CONSIDERATION TO THE FULLEST PRACTICAL 16 EXTENT BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECT I ON AGENCY OF THE 17 ADDITIVE IMPACT TO THE PROPOSED MACARIO OIL REFINERY AIR 18 POLLUTION OF ALL OTHER PENDING OR POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION 19 SOURCES, AND PARTICULARLY THOSE RELATED TO THE OPERATION OF 20 THE PROPOSED REFINERY, SUCH AS THE INCREASE IN OIL DELIVERY 21 AT THE ENC1NA TANKER TERMINAL, ADDITIONS TO OIL TANK STORAGE 22 CAPACITY, INCREASE IN POWER GENERATION AT THE.ENCINA POWER 23 PLANT, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF INDUSTRIES AT THE PROPOSED 24 JAPATUL CORPORATION INDUSTRIAL PARK FOR THE PURPOSE OF 25 PROCESSING OIL REFINERY BY-PRODUCTS. ------- I 1 2. FINAL ANALYSIS BY THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION '] i 2 CONTROL DISTRICT ON THE HIGHLY DETAILED AIR POLLUTION ANALYSIS 3 PROPOSED BY THIS AGENCY. 4 3. MACARIO OIL REFINERY ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT 5 REPORT PREPARATION AND PUBLIC HEARING COMPLETION. 6 4. ANALYSIS AND SOURCE DETERMINATION OF THE 7 FALLOUT THAT HAS CAUSED PAINT DAMAGE TO AUTOMOBILES IN THE 8 VICINITY OF AND FOR SOME DISTANCE INLAND FROM THE ENCINA 9 POWER PLANT SINCE UNIT NO. k WAS PLACED IN OPERATION. A REPORT 10 ON THIS FALLOUT WILL BE SENT TO THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION 11 CONTROL DISTRICT. 12 THIS RESOLUTION WAS ADOPTED BY CARLSBAD 13 COMMUNITY CAUSE EXECUTIVE BOARD ON AUGUST THE 18TH, 1975, 14 AND WAS RATIFIED BY A MEETING OF THE MEMBERS OF THE 15 ASSOCIATION ON AUGUST THE 21ST, 1975. 16 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. ACKERMAN. DO 17 YOU WISH TO HAND IN A COPY OF THE RESOLUTION SO WE CAN MAKE 18 IT PART OF THE RECORD? 19 MR. ACKERMAN: YES. 20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. 21 DO YOU HAVE A QUESTION, MR. COVINGTON? 22 MR. COVINGTON: YES, i DO. i 23 | CHAIRMAN WALKER: FOR THE RECORD, THE RESOLUTION 24 WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT NO. 19. I 25 I MR. ACKERMAN: NO. 19. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ------- 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. COV1NGTON: MR. ACKERMAN, ARE YOU AN OFFICER OF THE CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE? MR. ACKERMAN: YES, I AM A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND ACTING TREASURER. MR. COVINGTON: i WANTED TO KNOW THE CONTEXT IN WHICH YOU WERE SPEAKING OR ASKING QUESTIONS. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAS THE ORGANIZATION HAD AN OPPORTUNITY YET TO REVIEW THE TECHNICAL ANALYSIS AND THE MODELING THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY HAS UNDERTAKEN, AND HAVE YOU DONE IT WITH THOSE PEOPLE YOU FEEL QUALIFIED TO CONDUCT SUCH A REVIEW? MR. ACKERMAN: THAT HAS BEEN A FUNCTION OF OUR RESEARCH COMMITTEE, AND WE DO HAVE QUALIFIED PEOPLE ON THAT COMMITTEE THAT HAVE CARRIED OUT THIS STUDY. MR. COVINGTON: WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR IS -- AND PERHAPS YOU'RE NOT THE INDIVIDUAL I OUGHT TO ASK; BUT IF YOUR ORGANIZATION HAS REVIEWED OUR MODELING EFFORT AND OUR ANALYSIS, DO YOU HAVE THE RESULTS OF THAT THAT YOU COULD GIVE TO US W.ITH SOME PRECISION WHERE YOU FEEL IT'S INADEQUATE, IF IT IS INADEQUATE? MR. ACKERMAN: WELL, ONLY IN THAT WE FEEL VERY MUCH LIKE THE FIRST GENTLEMAN THAT SPOKE THIS MORNING FROM LEUCADIA, THAT THERE ARE SO MANY ADDITIVE SOURCES THAT ARE NOT CONSIDERED WHEN YOU'RE TAKING YOUR REFINERY AS A UNIT. MR. COVINGTON: COULD SOMEONE IN YOUR ORGANIZATION ------- 1 BE MORE PRECISE? WE FEEL, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT WE HAVE 2 RECOGNIZED -- AND I'M NOT ATTEMPTING TO GET INTO A DEBATE ON 3 THIS. IT'S NOT MY PURPOSE. BUT RATHER WE HAVE RECOGNIZED 4 THE POTENTIAL IMPACT OF ENCINA ITSELF IN OUR EFFORT, AND I'M 5 NOT SURE WHETHER THIS HAS BEEN UNDERSTOOD BY EVERYONE. 6 MR. ACKERMAN: I UNDERSTOOD THAT, IN TALKING 7 PREVIOUSLY WITH MR. -SW1CKER, YOU PEOPLE NATURALLY HAVE THE 8 REFINERY AND ALL THE INFORMATION. ALSO, THE ENCINA POWER 9 PLANT. YOU HAD A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TANKER TERMINAL, BUT NO 10 PRECISE KNOWLEDGE. AND AS 1 UNDERSTAND IT, THERE WAS NOTHING n DONE IN THE WAY OF ADDITIONAL USE OF THE TANKER TERMINAL IN 12 LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT YOU WILL HAVE ABOUT TWICE AS MANY 13 TANKERS COMING IN BECAUSE OF THE REFINERY. 14 ALSO, THERE WAS NOTHING -- NO CONSIDERATION, AS 15 I RECALL -- IN FACT, NO KNOWLEDGE AT THE TIME OF THE 16 INDUSTRIAL PARK. 17 MR. COVINGTON: i WANT TO CONVEY TO YOU AND TO 18 ALL, YOU KNOW, NO UNBENDING, UNYIELDING PRIDE OF AUTHORSHIP 19 WITH RESPECT TO THE MODELING ANALYSIS WHICH WE HAVE DONE. 20 I AM MERELY EARNESTLY TRYING TO SOLICIT FROM YOU OR ANYONE 21 WHO HAS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW OUR TECHNICAL WORK 22 YOUR CRITIQUE AS TO WHETHER IT IS DEFICIENT IN SOME RESPECT. 23 AND IF YOU HAVE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, WE CAN CONSIDER IT. 24 WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANYTHING YET THAT I KNOW OF, 25 AND I JUST WANTED TO CLARIFY THAT. AS AN OFFICER OF THE ------- ORGANIZATION, IF YOU HAVE IT, CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT IT? CAN YOU GET IT TO ME? MR. ACKERMAN: I'M SURE WE CAN GET IT TO YOU. AND I UNDERSTAND THERE IS A 30-DAY PERIOD THAT WE HAVE, AND WE WILL ENDEAVOR TO GET YOU THIS INFORMATION. MR. COVINGTON: ONE LAST QUESTION: • i TAKE IT FROM THE TONE OF SOME REMARKS THAT I HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING THAT YOU'RE RELYING -- OR I WOULD BE LED TO BELIEVE YOU'RE RELYING HEAVILY ON THE ANALYSIS DONE BY THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY APCD, WHICH IS WELL AND GOOD. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE COMMUNITY CAUSE POSITION WOULD BE IF THAT ANALYSIS SHOULD TURN OUT TO INDICATE NO INTERFERENCE WITH THE STANDARDS? MR. ACKERMAN: WELL, CERTAINLY, WE AT LEAST FEEL THAT THE ANALYSIS SHOULD BE MADE BECAUSE WE FEEL THAT RIGHT NOW THERE HASN'T BEEN PERHAPS AN ADEQUATE APPRAISAL OF OUR AIR POLLUTION SITUATION IN THIS PARTICULAR BASIN. MR. COVINGTON: i WAS MERELY TRYING TO ASCERTAIN THE EXTENT TO WHICH YOU WERE CONCERNED WITH AIR POLLUTION AS OPPOSED TO OTHER FACTORS. MR. ACKERMAN: WELL, OF COURSE, AIR POLLUTION IS THE TOPIC OF THE DAY, AND THIS IS WHAT I TRIED TO CONFINE MYSELF TO. (APPLAUSE) MR. COVINGTON: THANK YOU, MR. ACKERMAN. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. ACKERMAN. ------- 85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. C. M. LAFFOON OF MERRITT LANE, EL CAJON, CALIFORNIA, AND YOU'RE REPRESENTING SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC. MR. LAFFOON: MR. CHAIRMAN, MY NAME is C. M. LAFFOON. I'M A SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS 5 ELECTRIC COMPANY. BEFORE I PROVIDE SOME BACKGROUND INFORMATION, I WOULD LIKE THE RECORD, HOWEVER, TO EXPRESS MY SURPRISE, SHOCK AND, YES, EVEN THE INDIGNATION THAT AN OFFICIAL OF A LOCAL GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY IN PRESENTING A STATEMENT IN A PRESUMABLY OFFICIAL CAPACITY WOULD INCLUDE UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS THAT OUR COMPANY ISSUES FALSE INFORMATION WHEN IT SUITS OUR PURPOSES TO DO SO. CAPPLAUSE) MR. SOMMERVILLE: CAN i RESPOND TO THAT? CHAIRMAN WALKER: NOT AT THIS POINT. (APPLAUSE) WAIT A MINUTE. LET'S LET THIS GENTLEMAN MAKE HIS STATEMENT. IF YOU HAVE A RESPONSE TO MAKE, LET ME KNOW, AND WE Wl LL. -- MR. SOMMERVILLE: THE PROBLEM is HERE: IF THE CHAIR ALLOWS HIM TO MAKE A CERTAIN STATEMENT CHAIRMAN WALKER: i REALIZE THAT. MR. SOMMERVILLE: AND i WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL SEE TO IT THAT EVERYBODY GETS FAIR TREATEMENT. NOW, LET THE GENTLEMAN ------- 86 MAKE HIS STATEMENT, AND WE WILL SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT. MR. LAFFOON: TO GIVE YOU BACKGROUND INFORMATION, THE MACARIO REFINERY, WHICH IS THE SUBJECT OF THIS PROCEEDING IS PART OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY'S LONG-RANGE PROGRAM TO CARRY OUT ITS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE FOR THE COMMUNITY WHICH IT SERVES, THE ENERGY WHICH THE COMMUNITY WISHES TO HAVE. EARLY IN 1970, OUR COMPANY VOLUNTARILY CHANGED ITS FUEL OIL SUPPLY FROM WHAT WAS THEN THE CALIFORNIA DOMESTIC SUPPLY TO LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, WHICH WE ARE NOW USING. IN ORDER TO IMPLEMENT THAT CHANGE, WE REQUESTED THE AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT TO IMPOSE A REGULATION REQUIRING SUCH USE, AND WE MADE THAT REQUEST IN ORDER THAT WE COULD THEN COMPLY WITH THE FEDERAL IMPORT REGULATIONS WHICH WERE REQUIRED IN ORDER TO PROCURE THAT TYPE OF FUEL OIL. AS HAS BEEN STATED HERE PREVIOUSLY, LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL AT THAT TIME, AND STILL ESSENTIALLY TODAY, MUST BE MANUFACTURED FROM LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL. AND, AS HAS BEEN MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL EXISTS IN LIMITED SUPPLIES AND IN DECREASING SUPPLIES. OUR COMPANY PURCHASED THE PROPERTY ON WHICH THIS REFINERY IS PROPOSED TO BE BUILT IN THE EARLY 1970'S IN ORDER TO BE PREPARED, IF IT BECAME NECESSARY, TO INCLUDE ON IT FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITIES, AND PERHAPS FACILITIES TO RECEIVE AND STORE LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS. AT THE TIME, THERE WAS A PROSPECT WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO SECURE LIQUIFIED NATURAL GAS ------- 87 1 FROM ALASKA. AT THE MOMENT IT DOES NOT APPEAR WE WILL BE 2 ABLE TO DO SO DIRECTLY, SO WE CURRENTLY ARE NOT ACTIVELY 3 ANTICIPATING LNG STORAGE ON THIS SITE. 4 AT THE TIME OF THE PROPERTY PURCHASE, THERE WAS 5 EVERY INDICATION THAT IN ORDER TO CONTINUE TO QUALIFY FOR 6 RECEIVING LOW-SULPHUR CRUDE OIL THAT IT COULD WELL BE 7 NECESSARY TO ESTABLISH A FOREIGN TRADE ZONE AT THIS SITE, 8 AND WE MADE PRELIMINARY APPLICATION AND INVESTIGATION WITH 9 THE COMMERCE DEPARTMENT TO RECEIVE SUCH AN ASSIGNMENT. 10 HOWEVER, WE DID NOT HAVE TO TAKE THAT STEP AT THAT TIME I] BECAUSE WE WERE ABLE TO SECURE BY CONTRACT THE LOW-SULPHUR \2 FUEL OIL RESIDUAL PRODUCT PRODUCED BY THE HAWAIIAN INDEPENDENT 13 REF.INERY IN HONOLULU, WHICH WAS THEN NEAR1NG COMPLETION OF 14 ITS CONSTRUCTION. AND WHEN IT WENT INTO SERVICE, ITS 15 RESIDUAL OUTPUT WAS DEVOTED EXCLUSIVELY TO OUR SUPPLY. 16 WE WERE ALSO FORTUNATE AT THAT TIME TO SECURE 17 A SECONDARY SOURCE OF LOW-SULPHUR RESIDUAL FROM THE TOSORO 18 REFINERY IN ALASKA. THE COOK INLET CRUDE IS LOW-SULPHUR. 19 IT'S DECLINING IN QUANTITY, BUT IT IS AT THE MOMENT ONE OF 20 OUR SIGNIFICANT SUPPLIERS. 21 AS THE WORLD PICTURE CHANGED ON THE SUPPLY OF 22 CRUDE OIL, IT BECAME INCREASINGLY APPARENT THAT IF OUR 23 COMMUNITY WAS TO HAVE A SECURED SUPPLY OF FUEL WE HAD TO 24 TAKE- SOME ACTION TO PROTECT THE COMMUNITY'S INTEREST. 25 (LAUGHTER BY ONE INDIVIDUAL) ------- 1 MR. LAFFOON: MAY I PROCEED? 2 CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU MAY PROCEED. GO AHEAD. 3 MR. LAFFOON: THERE ARE ESSENTIALLY NO FACILITIES 4 TO TAKE THE CRUDE OIL WHICH IS DUE TO COME TO THE WEST COAST 5 IN THE 1977-78 PERIOD FROM THE NORTH SLOPE OF ALASKA, WHICH 6 HAS TOO HIGH A SULPHUR CONTENT TO BE USED, AND IT WAS THIS 7 MOTIVATION THAT LED US, IN ASSOCIATION WITH PACIFIC RESOURCES, 8 TO CONDUCT AND INITIATE THE STUDY THAT WE ARE DISCUSSING 9 HERE TODAY IN THE FORM OF THE MACARIO REFINERY. ,0 WHEN WE PICKED THE SITE ON THE BASIS OF THE 11 THEN-KNOWN KNOWLEDGE, WE WERE CONVINCED IN OUR MIND THAT IT 12 WAS THEN AN APPROPRIATE SITE FOR A FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY. 13 ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WITHIN OUR ORGANIZATION WHEN WE LAUNCHED 14 THIS PROGRAM IS WHAT SHALL WE CALL IT? BECAUSE, AS YOU 15 PROBABLY -- 1 HOPE YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED THIS IS A FUELS- 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 PROCESSING FACILITY. BUT THERE WAS CONCERN IF WE CALLED IT WHAT IT REALLY WAS WE WOULD BE ACCUSED OF DECEIT, AND SO WE CHOSE TO CALL IT A REFINERY. BUT WE ARE INSISTENT THAT ITS PURPOSE IS DEDICATED TO PROVIDE CLEAN FUELS FOR THE SAN DIEGO AREA. DURING THE ENERGY CRISIS, WHICH WE HAVE JUST COME THROUGH, I HOPE YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY WAS RECOGNIZED BY THE REGULATORY AGENCIES, FEDERAL AND STATE, AS BEING ONE OF THE FEW UTILITIES THAT HAD BEEN __ HAD FORESIGHT TO SECURE ADEQUATE SUPPLIES. AND WE ------- 89 1 DID HAVE AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY DURING THAT PERIOD WHEN OTHER 2 UTILITIES DID NOT. 3 WE FOUND FROM THAT EXPERIENCE THAT CONTRACTS 4 ARE VALUABLE BUT CONTRACTS ARE NOT A COMPLETE ASSURANCE THAT 5 ONE WILL RECEIVE THE SUPPLY THAT IS COVERED BY IT, AND WE 6 HAD EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HAD THE CRISIS GONE ON 7 FURTHER, ALLOCATED FUEL WOULD HAVE GONE TO OTHER AREAS. IT 8 IS FOR THIS REASON THAT WE BELIEVE THAT OUR SERVICE TERRITORY 9 SAN DIEGO, WHICH IS COMPLETELY DEVOID OF ANY LOCAL ENERGY 10 SOURCE--SAN DIEGO HAS NO ENERGY SOURCE OF ITS OWN--THAT IT 11 WOULD BE WELL-SERVED BY HAVING IN ITS AREA A FUEL-PROCESSING 12 FACILITY OF THE TYPE THAT IS PLANNED HERE. 13 . THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL QUESTIONS RAISED TODAY 14 CONCERNING THE INDUSTRIAL PARK, AND I WOULD LIKE TO REFRESH 15 YOUR MEMORY. THE LOCATION IN WHICH THE REFINERY WAS PROPOSED 16 TO BE BUILT WAS IN THE COUNTY. WE INITIATED ANNEXATION 17 PROCEEDINGS TO HAVE IT ANNEXED TO THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. AS 18 WE PROCEEDED THROUGH THE REGULATORY PROCESS BEFORE THE LOCAL 19 AGENCY FORMATION COMMISSION, A COURT DECISION INFLUENCED 20 AND RENDERED AN OPINION THAT IN ORDER TO ANNEX THAT PROPERTY 21 WE HAD TO HAVE A PLAN FOR THE TOTAL PROPERTY. 22 A LARGE PORTION OF THE PROPERTY IS CURRENTLY '23 WITHIN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. WE HAVE PROCEEDED TO DEVELOP 24 A PLAN FOR THE REMAINING PROPERTY, WHICH HAS BEEN REFERRED 25 TO AS AN INDUSTRIAL PARK. THIS IS AN EFFORT TO COMPLY WITH ------- 90 1 THE REGULATIONS. I WOULD REMIND YOU THAT THE PROPERTY WHICH 2 IS BEING PLANNED FOR IS WITHIN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD, AND 3 NOTHING CAN BE BUILT ON THAT INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT DOES NOT 4 MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. 5 THERE IS ONE OTHER FACTOR I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE 6 YOU KEEP IN MIND. THERE WAS A MENTION OF THE FACT THAT 7 PERHAPS THE REFINERY SHOULD USE FOR ITS OWN PURPOSES THE 8 SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT MIGHT BE PRODUCED. WE ARE ALL 9 AWARE OF THE DECREASING SUPPLY OF NATURAL GAS, AND THE 10 STATE AND FEDERAL ORGANIZATIONS ARE GOING THROUGH THE PROCESS 11 NOW OF ESTABLISHING PRIORITIES TO DETERMINE WHO IN FACT IS 12 GOING TO RECEIVE NATURAL GAS. ONE OF THE CRITERIA THAT IS 13 GENERALLY USED IN MAKING THAT DETERMI NAT I ON IS THAT THE 14 PERSON WHO CAN WITH ONLY GREAT DIFFICULTY USE AN ALTERNATE 15 FUEL SHOULD CONTINUE TO RECEIVE NATURAL GAS. BY AND LARGE 16 THIS PRODUCES FOR THE DOMESTIC CUSTOMER, THE HOUSEHOLD, THE 17 HIGHEST PRIORITY FOR NATURAL GAS. THE HEAVY RESIDUAL FUEL 18 OILS THAT ARE PRODUCED ARE VERY DIFFICULT FOR ANYBODY EXCEPT 19 AN INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATION TO UTILIZE. EVEN A DISTILLATE 20 BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT FOR A HOUSEHOLDER TO USE. THAT 21 PRIORITY WILL PROBABLY GO TO INSTITUTIONS SUCH AS SCHOOLS, 22 LAUNDRIES, AND OTHER GROUPS THAT CAN HANDLE THAT KIND OF A 23 FUEL. 24 • SO, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ASSIGNING A PRIORITY TO 25 ONE OR ANOTHER USE, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE CRITERIA ------- 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IS IN PART ECONOMIC BUT IT IS ALSO A RECOGNITION OF HOW THE PARTICULAR FUEL CAN BE USED. MR. CHAIRMAN, I BELIEVE THAT COVERS THE HIGHLIGHTS), AND I WOULD BE GLAD TO RESPOND TO QUESTIONS IF YOU HAVE SOME. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. LAFFOON. DO YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS? MR. COVINGTON: YES. MR. LAFFOON, I WOULD LIKE TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE SIT BETTER WHAT YOUR SERVICE AREA IS AND HOW IT RELATES TO THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THAT BOUNDARY. ARE THEY CO-TERMINUS? WOULD THEY ESSENTIALLY COVER THE ENTIRE COUNTY WITH YOUR AIR REGION? MR. LAFFOON: IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT OUR SERVICE TERRITORY, WHICH IS SAN DIEGO COUNTY WITH A SMALL PORTION OF ORANGE COUNTY, ESSENTIALLY COVERS THE SAME GEOGRAPHICAL AREA AS THE SAN DIEGO REGIONAL AIR POLLUTION CONTROL AREA. MR. COVINGTON: DO YOU GENERATE YOUR ENTIRE NEEDS HERE? DO YOU GENERATE FOR EXPORT, DO YOU IMPORT? MR. LAFFOON: WE ARE A NET IMPORTER. ALL OF OUR FUEL IS IMPORTED. IT EITHER COMES IN THE FORM OF NATURAL GAS, WHICH ARRIVES BY PIPELINE, OR IT COULD BE IN THE FORM OF DISTILLATE FUEL, WHICH COULD ARRIVE EITHER BY PIPELINE IN THE STANDARD PRODUCTS PIPELINE FROM THE LOS ANGELES AREA, OR BY TANK SHIP TO THE OFF-LOADING TERMINAL HERE AT CARLSBAD, ------- 92 OR TO THE PORT OF SAN DIEGO. THE RESIDUAL FUEL IS ALL IMPORTED. WE DO RECEIVE FROM TIME TO TIME, AS NATURE PERMITS, SOME ELECTRICAL ENERGY SUPPLY FROM THE NORTHWEST, THE COLUMBIA RIVER GENERATION SOURCE, AND SOME FROM THE NORTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA, THE PACIFIC GAS AND ELECTRIC TERRITORY. WHEN THEY HAVE SURPLUSES IN WET WINTERS, AS THE LAST TWO WINTERS HAVE BEEN, THEN BECAUSE OF OUR PARTICIPATION IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST INTERT1E, WE HAVE AN ENTITLEMENT TO. TRANSMISSION CAPACITY, AND WE DO IMPORT ENERGY. THE ONLY ENERGY THAT WE GENERATE THAT IS EXPORTED AND THIS IN NET IS AN IMPORT, BUT WE DO GENERATE OFF PEAK A SMALL QUANTITY OF ENERGY THAT IS SUPPLIED TO THE STATE WATER PROJECT, WHICH IS USED TO PUMP THE WATER FROM NORTHERN CALIFORNIA TO SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA FOR USE IN THIS AREA AND THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA REGION. BUT AT THE MOMENT WE RECEIVE MORE FROM OUT OF THE AREA THAN WE SUPPLY. MR. COVINGTON: SO, IT'S NOT PRINCIPALLY A GENERATING BASE FOR SERVING AREAS OUTSIDE OF THE AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION? MR. LAFFOON: IT is NOT. MR. COVINGTON: CAN YOU GO BACK A MOMENT TO YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT THE SITE. THERE WAS EARLIER THIS MORNING--AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WERE PRESENT AT THE- T I ME--SOME CONCERNS EXPRESSED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF SATELLITE INDUSTRIES ------- 93 1 DEVELOPING THERE AND THE POSSIBLE CUMULATIVE EFFECT THAT 2 MIGHT HAVE ON AIR POLLUTION. CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN US ANY 3 FURTHER AS TO THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT, OR ARE THERE FIRM 4 PLANS THAT THE COMPANY HAS, OR WHERE ARE YOU? 5 MR. LAFFOON: WELL, AS i INDICATED BEFORE, THE 6 PROPERTY WAS PURCHASED AS ITS PRIMARY PURPOSE SERVING THE 7 UTILITY FUEL NEED. AS WE DESIGNED THE REFINERY, IT APPEARED 8 THAT ALL THE PROPERTY WE HAD TO ACQUIRE FOR THAT WAS NOT 9 REQUIRED FOR THAT SERVICE. THE INDUSTRIAL PARK, AS PLANNED, 10 DOES NOT CONTEMPLATE HAVING ANY CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH 11 THE REFINERY. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO- USE THE OUTPUT FROM 12 THE REFINERY, IT IS NOT INTENDED TO HAVE ANY PETROCHEMICAL 13 INDUSTRIES OR ANY KIND OF INDUSTRY OF THAT SORT. IT IS 14 INTENDED, IF WE CAN CONTROL THE DESTINY, TO BE A HIGH-QUALITY 15 SCIENTIFIC-TYPE LOCATION FOR INDUSTRY THAT IS COMPATIBLE WITH 16 THE COMMUNITY AND IS DESIGNED BY THE COMMUNITY. 17 BUT TO WHAT EXTENT THE CLOSE ASSOCIATION WITH 18 THE AIRPORT WILL PERMIT IT TO SUPPLEMENT THE AIRPORT AND 19 HAVE A SYNERGiSTIC EFFECT BETWEEN THE AIRPO.RT AND THE 20 INDUSTRIAL PARK, IT'S TOO EARLY TO PREDICT. BUT WE ARE NOT 21 ATTEMPTING TO SET UP A PETROCHEMICAL COMPLEX IN ANY WAY. 22 MR. COVINGTON: THAT'S THE COMPANY'S THINKING 23 AND, AS 1 UNDERSTAND IT, IN A PLANNING SENSE, AND THIS IS I 24 STILL SUBJECT TO PENDING ANNEXATION, THE DECISION OF THE 25 CITY FATHERS HERE AS TO WHAT PRECISELY DEVELOPS; IS THAT ------- 1 CORRECT? 2 MR. LAFFOON: YES. AND TO THE EXTENT THAT WE 3 CAN ATTEMPT TO INTERPRET WHAT THE IR ' DESI RES AND WISHES ARE. 4 MR. COVINGTON: i HAVE NO OTHER QUESTIONS. 5 MR. SWICKER: i HAVE NO QUESTIONS. 6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 7 . (APPLAUSE) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 AS FAR AS OUR PROCEDURAL PROBLEM, MR. SOMMERVILLE YOU SPOKE THIS MORNING. YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF OUTRAGED AT THIS TIME, BUT WE HAVE SOME 35 PEOPLE WAITING TO BE HEARD. IF YOU WISH TO MAKE A RESPONSE, 1 WILL ALLOW YOU PRECISELY 60 SECONDS AND NOTHING MORE, IF YOU WISH TO DO SO AT THIS TIME.. BUT I WOULD HOLD YOU TO 60 SECONDS. MR. SOMMERVILLE: THIS MORNING, WHEN I SPOKE, IT SEEMED THE EPA HAD RECEIVED SOME CERTAIN INFORMATION CONCERNING FUEL AND ITS AVAILABILITY IN THE FUTURE. WE HAD RECEIVED INFORMATION SOME MONTHS AGO AS WE WERE REVIEWING THE ENCINA POWER PLANT. THE INFORMATION DOES NOT JIBE. I SAID AT THAT TIME — I'M NOT SURE OF MY EXACT WORDS, BUT I'M CERTAIN 1 INDICATED FRUSTRATION INASMUCH AS THERE WAS TWO DIFFERENT PIECES OF INFORMATION. I HAVE FOUND IT VERY FRUSTRATING DEALING WITH SDGSE, AND WE DID HAVE SOME DIFFICULTY IN THE PAST. I THOUGHT WE HAD SET IT UP AND HAD -RECEIVED AND HAD BEEN COORDINATING, AND THAT I DID HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION. ------- 95 1 IT'S JUST FRUSTRATING TO GET CERTAIN KINDS OF 2 INFORMATION AND THINK YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE 3 REGION AND MAKE CERTAIN DECISIONS ON THAT INFORMATION AND 4 THEN HAVE A KIND OF TURN-AROUND ON YOU A LITTLE LATER. 5 THEREFORE, I WASN'T REALLY MAKING AN ALLEGATION -- 6 THAT'S 60 SECONDS? 7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S 60 SECONDS. 8 (APPLAUSE) 9 WE WILL NOW CALL TWO FROM THE CITIZENS GROUP. 10 JOHN A. GRAY, LOS ROBLES DRIVE, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING 11 HIMSELF. 12 MR. GRAY: MR. CHAIRMAN, THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING 13 ME TO APPEAR BEFORE YOU. THESE REMARKS WERE PREPARED 14 SPECIFICALLY FOR YOU, AND SO THE AUDIENCE IS GOING TO HAVE 15 TO BEAR WITH ME BECAUSE I'M TALKING TO YOU ALL. 16 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S WHY WE CAME. 17 MR. GRAY: MY NAME is JOHN A. GRAY, i LIVE AT 18 5^51 LOS ROBLES DRIVE, CARLSBAD, IN THE AREA CALLED 19 TERRAMAR. 1 AM A DIRECTOR OF THE TERRAMAR ASSOCIATION, BUT 20 I'M SPEAKING AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN OF THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. 21 MEMBERS OF THE TERRAMAR ASSOCI AT I ON.ARE ALSO 22 OWNERS OF RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY, TAXPAYERS, AND CLOSE 23 NEIGHBORS OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC COMPANY ENCINA 24 THERMAL POWER PLANT. DURING MY FIVE YEARS' RESIDENCE HERE, 25 I HAVE LEARNED TO BE CAUTIOUS WHEN THE GAS COMPANY OFFERS TO ------- 96 1 DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR ME, SUCH AS BUILD A REFINERY IN MY CITY 2 AND, THEREFORE, I AM APPEARING BEFORE YOU TODAY TO ASK YOU 3 TO DEFER YOUR DECISION TO PERMIT THE MACARIO INDEPENDENT 4 REFINERY TO BE BUILT IN CARLSBAD. 5 DEFER IT, GENTLEMEN, UNTIL YOU HAVE ACQUIRED A 6 MORE RELIABLE DATA BASE FOR THIS VITAL DECISION. YOUR 7 DECISION TO APPROVE THE DAILY ADDITION OF Ik TONS OF g POLLUTANTS TO OUR AIR MAY NOT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE TRUE FACTS. 9 THERE IS SOME DOUBT THAT THE FACTS WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN 10 ARE THE TRUE ONES. 11 FOR INSTANCE, ONE OF THE EXCUSES FOR BUILDING 12 THIS REFINERY IS THE PROJECTED SHORTAGE OF NATURAL GAS. 13 THE U. S. BUREAU OF COMPETITION HAS ACCUSED THE NATION'S 14 ELEVEN LARGEST NATURAL GAS PRODUCERS OF UNDERESTIMATING THE 15 NATURAL GAS RESERVES OF OUR COUNTRY. GENTLEMEN, ARE YOU SURE 16 THERE WILL BE A NATURAL GAS SHORTAGE TO JUSTIFY THIS REFINERY 17 ANOTHER EXCUSE FOR BUILDING THE REFINERY IN lg CARLSBAD IS A PROJECTED POPULATION GROWTH OF 50 PERCENT BY 19 1935. THIS SPECTACULAR GROWTH WAS FORECAST BY AN INTERESTED 20 PARTY, THE SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY. BUT WILLARD 21 JOHNSON, DIRECTOR OF THE POPULATION STUDY CENTER IN SAN DIEGO 22 SAID SUCH FORECASTS ARE WRONG AND MISLEADING. LAST YEAR, 23 HE SAID, THE COUNTY GREW ONLY 2.2 PERCENT, AND HE FORECASTS 24 AN INCREASE -OF ONLY 12 PERCENT BY 1985. "A 50 PERCENT GROWTH 25 RATE IS ABSURD," SAID WILLARD JOHNSON. ------- 97 1 GENTLEMEN, DID YOU USE THE WRONG AND MISLEADING 2 GROWTH FIGURE TO ARRIVE AT YOUR CONCLUSIONS THAT CARLSBAD 3 SHOULD BE INUNDATED WITH 14 TONS OF POLLUTANTS A DAY? 4 WAS YOUR DECISION INFLUENCED BY THE SAN DIEGO 5 GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY'S FORECAST OF INCREASED ENERGY USE? 6 THEY PROJECTED A 7 PERCENT ANNUAL INCREASE IN ENERGY USE. 7 BUT, SAYS DOUG LANDON OF THE SAN DIEGO ENERGY COALITION, THE 8 COUNTY GREW ONLY 2.2 PERCENT, NOT 7 PERCENT. BESIDES THAT, 9 THE CONSUMPTION OF OUR GAS COMPANY'S ELECTRICITY ACTUALLY 10 FELL OFF BY 12,000,000 KILOWATT HOURS LAST YEAR. NOW, IF 11 SUCH BE THE CASE, ARE YOU SURE THAT THE OUTPUT OF THIS 12 REFINERY WILL BE NEEDED TO SUPPORT THE GAS COMPANY IN 1985? 13 BUT IT'S NOT ONLY US PRIVATE CITIZENS WHO DOUBT 14 THESE PROJECTIONS ON WHICH YOUR DECISION APPEARS TO BE BASED. 15 OUR STATE ENERGY COMMISSION STAFF QUESTIONS THE TECHNIQUES 16 USED BY THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION TO FORECAS 17 FUTURE NEEDS FOR ELECTRICITY. MOREOVER, THE ENERGY COMMISSIO 18 FORECAST A DEMAND FOR 9 PERCENT LESS ELECTRICITY IN 1984 THAN 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WAS FORECAST BY THREE OF OUR PUBLIC UTILITIES. ONE OF THOSE THREE PUBLIC UTILITIES WAS OUR OWN SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY. SO, GENTLEMEN, IF YOU WERE USING EITHER PUC OR GAS COMPANY PROJECTIONS TO DECIDE CARLSBAD NEEDED A REFINERY, THE STAFF OF THE CALIFORNIA ENERGY COMMISSION DISAGREES WITH YOU.- NOW, BESIDES QUESTIONING THE PREMISES UPON WHICH ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 YOU BASED YOUR DECISION, GENTLEMEN, I ALSO INVITE YOU TO CONSIDER SOME SMOG PROBLEMS WHICH THIS PROPOSED REFINERY WILL CREATE. CONSIDER THE FUMES VENTED FROM THE HOLDS OF THE BARGES WHICH COME TO THE ENCINA MARINE TERMINAL TO BACKLOAD OIL FROM THE STORAGE TANKS AND CARRY IT TO SAN DIEGO WHEN THAT OIL GOES INTO THOSE TANKS, THE FUMES COME OUT, AND THE POLLUTED SEA BREEZE BLOWS RIGHT ACROSS OUR SEASIDE COMMUNITY OF TERRAMAR. CONSIDER THE FUMES EMITTED BY THE SATELLITE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES WHICH WILL SPRING UP AROUND THAT REFINERY. YOU MAY SAY, "WHAT HAVE WE TO DO WITH THOSE? NOBODY HAS ASKED OUR PERMISSION FOR PETROCHEMICAL POLLUTION." AND 1 WILL ANSWER THAT QUESTION, GENTLEMEN. IF ONE HEAVY INDUSTRY, SUCH AS THIS REFINERY, IS ALLOWED TO POLLUTE OUR AIR, THEN HOW CAN YOU DENY OTHERS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO? LASTLY, GENTLEMEN, CONSIDER WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THIS REFINERY GOES INTO OPERATION AND FAILS TO COMPLY WITH YOUR REQUIREMENTS. UP IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, THE BEN1C1A. REFINERY HAS BEEN CITED REPEATEDLY FOR POLLUTION VIOLATIONS. NOW, I AM TOLD THAT OUR STATE LAW HAS A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF $500 PER DAY FOR POLLUTION. NOW, THAT'S PEANUTS TO A MULTI- MILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION. THEY CAN GO RIGHT AHEAD VIOLATING YOUR LAW, SHELLING OUT $500 A DAY, STILL MAKE A PROFIT, AND YOU CAN'T STOP THEM UNLESS, OF COURSE, YOU DENY ------- 99 1 THEM THIS PERMIT TO BEGIN WITH. 2 NOW, GENTLEMEN, I ASK THAT YOU CONSIDER CAREFULLY 3 WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO. ONCE THE DAMAGE IS DONE, IT CAN'T 4 BE REPAIRED. ITS LONG-RANGE IMPLICATIONS ARE HORRENDOUS. 5 PLEASE CHECK YOUR BASIC PREMISES. GET MORE RELIABLE, GET 6 LESS BIASED INFORMATION OF YOUR OWN BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO 7 FOIST THIS REFINERY UPON OUR BEAUTIFUL LITTLE SEASIDE TOWN. 8 THANK YOU. 9 (APPLAUSE) 10 CHAIRMAN WALKER: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR 1] STATEMENT? 12 MR. GRAY: YES, SIR. ,3 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WOULD YOU LIKE TO LEAVE IT FOR 14 US SO WE CAN INCORPORATE IT IN THE RECORD? THANK YOU VERY 15 MUCH. lg • MR. GRAY'S STATEMENT WILL BE MARKED FOR THE 17 PURPOSE OF THIS RECORD EXHIBIT NO. 20. 18 I NEXT HAVE MR. WILLIAM KAPLAN, JEWELL STREET, 19 SAN DIEGO, REPRESENTING HIMSELF. 20 MR. KAPLAN: MY NAME IS WILLIAM KAPLAN, AND I 21 LIVE AT 3932 JEWELL STREET IN SAN DIEGO 92109. 1 AM A 22 CHEMICAL ENGINEER BOTH BY EDUCAT1 ON -AND BY EXPER1ENCE, HAVING 23 HAD SOME 40-ODD YEARS IN THE PETROLEUM INDUSTRY WORKING FOR 24 TWO DIFFERENT COMPANIES. 25 THE WORK I DID RELATED TO ALL FACETS OF REFINERY ------- 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 OPERATIONS, FROM PILOT PLANT RESEARCH, REFINERY OPERATIONS, ENGINEERING DESIGN, PROCESS DESIGN, TECHNICAL SERVICE IN THE REFINERY, AUTOMOTIVE.RESEARCH, AND TECHNICAL ADVICE IN THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT. ABOUT SIX MONTHS AGO A CENTURY 3-C REPRESENTATIVE ASKED ME TO ATTEND A MEETING AT BALBOA PARK TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS THAT WERE OF SOME CONCERN TO SOME CARLSBAD CITIZENS THESE QUESTIONS RELATED TO THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY. 1 TOLD THEM IN EFFECT THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE.TO HAVE A CLEAN REFINERY BUT THAT NO JUDGMENT WAS POSSIBLE WITH REGARD TO MACARIO WITHOUT DETAILED KNOWLEDGE OF THE PROCESSING SCHEME, WHICH PROBABLY WOULDN'T BE AVAILABLE UNTIL THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT WAS PREPARED. WHEN SUCH A REPORT WAS AVAILABLE I OFFERED TO HELP AND REVIEW IT, AND THAT I WOULD BE IN A BETTER POSITION TO GIVE AN OPINION ON THE ADEQUACY OF THE PROPOSAL FROM AN AIR POLLUTION STANDPOINT. SIX WEEKS AGO I RECEIVED NOTICE OF A MEETING OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S ORANGE-SAN DIEGO COUNTIES' ENVIRONMENT TASK FORCE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, IRVINE CAMPUS. ONE OF THE ITEMS ON THE AGENDA WAS EPA'S APPROVAL OF THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY FROM AN AIR QUALITY STANDPOINT. IN OTHER WORDS, TO BECOME PREPARED FOR THIS MEETING. MR. BRUCE BEAN, THE PROJECT MANAGER, WAS CONTACTED AND HE SENT ME PRELIMINARY INFORMATION ABOUT THE PROCESSING SCHEME WHICH WAS USED AS A BASIS FOR REMARKS I MADE AT THE L ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 101 ATTORNEY GENERAL'S TASK FORCE MEETING ON JULY 24TH. AT THAT MEETING IT WAS FINALLY VOTED THAT APPROVAL BE GRANTED IF THE BEST AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY IS USED. THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO ME HAS BEEN STUDIED, AND IT IS MY BELIEF THAT THE BASIC PROCESSING SCHEME INCORPORATES THE BEST AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY TODAY. I ALSO BELIEVE THAT EPA'S CONDITIONAL IMPACT APP'RAISAL IS SOUND, BUT THERE WILL BE AN OVERALL DECREASE OF POLLUTANTS WITHIN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION OVER WHAT WOULD BE EXPECTED IF OTHER ALTERNATE AVAILABLE FUELS ARE USED. NOW, THE POLLUTANT THAT'S PROBABLY MOST CONTROLLABLE IS SULPHUR OXIDES, AND THE TWO MOST POPULAR WAYS TO ATTACK THIS PROBLEM ARE, FIRST, BY INSTALLING SCRUBBERS IN STACKS OR, TWO, BY REMOVING THE SULPHUR FROM THE PRODUCTS BEFORE THEY'RE BURNED. NOW, SCRUBBING TECHNOLOGY IS CURRENTLY UNDER INTENSIVE STUDY, AND -THERE IS SOME INDICATION THAT IT CAN BE IN USE IN A LOT OF PLACES, BUT THERE ARE PROBLEMS TO BE SOLVED IN THE DISPOSAL OF THE CALCIUM SULPHATE SLUDGES. IN SUCH A REFINERY, ANY RESIDUAL FUEL SOLD TO OTHERS WOULD HAVE TO BE SCRUBBED IN THE VARIOUS STACKS IN WHICH THE HIGH-SULPHUR FUEL IS BURNED. ON THE OTHER HAND, THE REMOVAL OF SULPHUR DURING PROCESSING OF THE CRUDE PRODUCES LOW-SULPHUR PRODUCTS THAT CAN BE USED ANYWHERE. NOW, THESE HYDROGENATI ON PROCESSES FOR REMOVING SULPHUR ARE FLEXIBLE AND THEY ARE SUBJECT TO ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 102 IMPROVEMENT IN TIME IN THE CATALYST TECHNOLOGY AND FOR EFFECTIVE SULPHUR REMOVAL IN THE FUTURE. MUCH AS GASOLINE OCTANE WILL IMPROVE THROUGH THE DEVELOPMENT OF NEWER CATALYSTS. THERE IS ALSO THE FLEXIBILITY IN THE USE OF LONGER RESIDENCE TIME BY ADDING REACTORS TO THIS EQUIPMENT OR BY INCREASING TEMPERATURES IF IN THE FUTURE LOWER-SULPHUR CONTENTS ARE DICTATED. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU GOT A FLEXIBILITY HERE WITH RESPECT TO SULPHUR CONTENT THAT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE IN A LOT OF OTHER SCHEMES. AND THE EXTRACTION SYSTEM FOR EXTRACTING THE HYDROGEN SULPHIDE FROM ALL THE HYDROGENATI ON UNITS IS A KNOWN TECHNOLOGY. MANY SUCH HYDROGEN SULPHIDE REMOVAL SYSTEMS USING THE DIETHYLNOL MEANS HAVE BEEN IN OPERATION FOR 40 YEARS. NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE PURPOSE OF THIS MEETING RELATES TO AIR QUALITY, SO I CANNOT OFFER ANY COMMENTS ON THE BASIS OF WATER QUALITY, WASTE, CHEMICAL DISPOSAL, AND THESE SORT OF THINGS WHICH ARE VERY COMMON IN AN OIL REFINERY. BUT THERE IS ONE FURTHER COMMENT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE THAT CONCERNS THINGS THAT ARE NOT PRESENT IN THIS REFINERY. REFINERIES HAVE BEEN MADE.-- REFERENCES HAVE BEEN MADE TO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN.OTHER REFINERIES. IN A TYPICAL GASOLINE REFINERY, CATALYTIC CRACKING UNITS ARE USED, AND THEY PRESENTED MANY PROBLEMS FROM A NOISE POLLUTION STANDPOINT OR PARTICULATE MATTER, ALTHOUGH MOST OF THESE ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 103 ARE SOLVED AT THE PRESENT TIME. THEY ALSO HAVE A HIGH CARBON MONOXIDE PROBLEM. NO SUCH UNIT IS PRESENT IN THIS REFINERY. A NUMBER OF TREATING SYSTEMS ARE USED IN -- FOR REMOVAL OF THE SULPHUR COMPOUNDS, WHICH ARE VERY ODOROUS IN AN ORDINARY GASOLINE REFINERY. AS FAR AS 1 CAN TELL, THERE IS NO SUCH SYSTEM REQUIRED HERE. NO COKING UNIT, WHICH IS RATHER COMMON IN A LOT OF REFINERIES. YOU HAVE NO COKING UNIT HERE. MANY OTHER PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO WITH RESPECT TO ORDINARY REFINERIES JUST WON'T APPLY TO THIS MACARIO REFINERY. I REPEAT THAT I THINK THE BASIC TECHNOLOGY IS THERE, IT'S THE BEST THAT COULD BE USED, BUT DETAILED STUDIES HAVE TO BE MADE OF ALL THE NUTS AND BOLTS AND THE SMALL LITTLE THINGS THAT GO TO MAKE UP A COMPLETE SYSTEM, AND THESE ARE THE THINGS YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WATCH FOR VERY CAREFULLY BEFORE A FINAL APPRAISAL CAN BE MADE. I THINK THIS HEARING IS JUST A BEGINNING IN REACHING THAT DECISION. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. KAPLAN. DO YOU HAVE YOUR WRITTEN STATEMENT, MR. KAPLAN, THAT YOU WISH TO SUBMIT FOR THE RECORD? MR. KAPLAN: i HAVE MAINLY NOTES, BUT i COULD CONVERT THEM INTO A STATEMENT IF YOU'RE NOT RUSHED FOR TIME. ------- 104 1 . CHAIRMAN WALKER: IT'S YOUR CHOICE. WE ARE GOING 2 TO KEEP THE RECORD OPEN FOR 30 DAYS, IF YOU WANT TO CLEAN 3 THEM UP. 4 MR. KAPLAN: i WILL SEE THAT YOU GET IT. 5 CHAIRMAN WALKER: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. 6 I WILL NEXT CALL ON JOAN JACKSON OF CHINQUAPIN 1 IN CARLSBAD REPRESENTING CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE. 8 MS. JACKSON: MY NAME is JOAN JACKSON, i LIVE 9 AT 1120 CHINQUAPIN. THAT'S C-H-I-N-Q-U-A-P-I-N, CARLSBAD. 10 CARLSBAD IS IN A CRITICAL AIR BASIN WHERE 11 UNSATISFACTORY LEVELS OF AIR POLLUTANTS PRESENTLY EXIST. 12 THERE ARE ADDITIONAL MAJOR POLLUTING FACILITIES IN VARIOUS 13 STAGES OF APPROVAL OR DEVELOPMENT IN THE AREA, SPECIFICALLY 14 ENCINA UNIT 5, THE EXPANSION OF THE ENCINA TANK FARM AND 15 THE INDUSTRIAL PARK PROPOSED FOR THE 580 ACRES ADJACENT TO 16 THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY SITE. 17 THE ARGUMENT THAT THE REFINERY WILL EASE RATHER 18 THAN INTENSIFY THE SITUATION IS BASICALLY THAT THE POLLUTANTS 19 GENERATED BY THE REFINERY, 14 TONS PER DAY, WILL BE MORE THAN 20 OFFSET BY THE RESULTANT REDUCTION IN POLLUTION CAUSED BY 21 BURNING THE REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL. THIS ARGUMENT DEPENDS ON 22 SEVERAL ASSUMPTIONS OF VARYING DEGREES OF PROBABILITY. 23 A PERMIT GRANTED TO BUILD THE MACARIO REFINERY 24 RESTS ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL WOULD NOT 25 OTHERWISE BE AVAILABLE TO SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC COMPANY. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC HAS TESTIFIED REPEATEDLY BOTH BEFORE THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT AND THE SAN D1EGC REGIONAL COAST COMMISSION THAT SAN DIEGO GAS AND ELECTRIC HAS FIRM CONTRACTS THROUGH 1984 TO SUPPLY THE ENC1NA GENERATING PLANT WITH AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL. THIS INFORMATION WAS SUPPLIED TO THESE AGENCIES AS SUPPORT FOR THEIR APPLICATION TO CONSTRUCT ENCINA 5. THAT CONSTRUCTION OF THE MACARI 0 REFINERY WILL PRODUCE A NET REDUCTION IN AIR POLLUTION MUST ALSO REST ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL REFINED IN CARLSBAD WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR USE IN THAT SERVICE AREA. THIS IS AN ASSUMPTION WHICH FEDERAL ALLOCATION POLICIES PRECLUDE. SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC COMPANY TESTIFIED, WHEN REQUESTING ONE MAJOR AIR-POLLUTING FACILITY, THE ADDITIONAL GENERATING UNIT AT THE ENCINA PLANT, THAT AMPLE LOW-SULPHUR FUEL WAS ALREADY ASSURED FROM SOURCES OTHER THAN THE PROPOSED REFINERY. THEY NOW TESTIFY THAT THE REFINERY IS NECESSARY TO PREVENT INCREASED POLLUTION FROM SUCH FACILITIES AS THEIR GENERATING PLANT IN ENCINA AND ELSEWHERE IN THE SAME CRITICAL AIR BASIN BECAUSE OTHERWISE REDUCED-SULPHUR FUEL WILL BE UNAVAILABLE IN SUFFICIENT QUANTITY. THE TESTIMONY IN THE TWO CASES IS DIRECTLY CONTRADICTORY. THEREFORE, CERTAINLY INCORRECT IN AT LEAST ONE CASE. SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC WAS ORDERED TO SELL ------- lOfi 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THEIR SURPLUS OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL TO A COMPANY OUTSIDE THEIR SERVICE AREA EARLIER THIS YEAR. THE REDUCED SULPHUR FUEL REFINED IN CARLSBAD WILL LIKEWISE BE ALLOCATED AS SEEN FIT BY STATE AND FEDERAL AGENCIES. THERE ARE OTHER QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN UNANSWERED. AT THE ANNUAL MEETING OF GULF OIL, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE *BOARD, MR. B. R. DORSEY, REPLIED TO A STOCKHOLDER'S QUESTION, "DO WE HAVE ANY REFINERIES THAT WE PLAN ON BUILDING IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS?" "NO. THERE'S ABOUT A 40 PERCENT REFINERY SURPLUS IN THE WORLD TODAY, SO YOU WOULD KIND OF HAVE TO BE OUT OF YOUR MIND, WHICH WE ARE NOT, TO BUILD A REFINERY." CARLSBAD IS NOT AN ISOLATED FARMING AREA IN THE STATE OF WASHINGTON NOR ON AN ISLAND WITH CONSISTENT STRONG WIND CURRENTS. WE ARE A TOWN BALANCED ON THE VERGE OF SUCCUMBING TO THE BLIGHT THAT HAS AFFECTED LOS ANGELES, A BLIGHT THAT IS PREDICTED TO WORSEN RATHER THAN IMPROVE BECAUSE OF THE REDUCTION IN POLLUTION CONTROL RESULTING FROM OUR FORECAST ENERGY SHORTAGE. TO GRANT A PERMIT BASED ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE FUEL WOULD NOT OTHERWISE BE AVAILABLE WHEN SAN DIEGO GAS S ELECTRIC HAS PROVED TO OTHER AGENCIES THAT THEY HAVE AN ADEQUATE SUPPLY TO AT LEAST 1984, AND ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE FUEL WILL BE USED IN THEIR SERVICE AREA WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS ULTIMATE ALLOCATION AUTHORITY IS TO ASK CARLSBAD TO ACCEPT BLINDLY WHATEVER SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC PROPOSES REGARDLESS OF HOW ------- 107 SELF-CONTRADICTORY AND CONTRARY TO LOGIC AND GOOD SENSE THE 2 PROPOSALS MAY BE. 3 CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE URGES THE UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY TO DENY THE AUTHORITY TO 5 CONSTRUCT PERMIT. 6 1 HAVE TWO ITEMS I WOULD LIKE TO ENTER INTO THE 7 RECORD. ONE IS A LETTER TO MR. R. G.. LACY, MANAGER, 8 MECHANICAL ENGINEERING, SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRI C,. FROM 9 RICHARD J. SOMMERVILLE, ACTING AIR POLLUTION CONTROL OFFICER 10 FOR SAN DIEGO COUNTY. AND THE OTHER IS MY STATEMENT. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 12 (APPLAUSE) 13 A COPY OF THE LETTER TO MR. R. G. LACY FROM 14 RICHARD J. SOMMERV1LLE WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 21 FOR PURPOSES 15 OF THIS HEARING, AND A COPY OF THE LADY'S STATEMENT WILL BE 16 MARKED EXHIBIT 22. 17 I NEXT CALL. ON MR. ARTHUR J. MEIER OF CHEVY CHASE, 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LA MESA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING LOCAL 230. ARTHUR J. MEIER? IT DOESN'T SAY LOCAL OF WHAT. I OBSERVE NO RESPONSE. WE WILL CALL THESE LATER. MR. MONTY NESBIT OF SAN PABLO DRIVE, LAKE SAN MARCOS, REPRESENTING HIMSELF. MR. J. A. REHBERG FROM HONOLULU, REPRESENTING PACIFIC RESOURCES, INCORPORATED. MR. REHBERG: MY NAME is JEROME REHBERG. I'M ------- 1 SENIOR VICE-PRESIDENT OF PACIFIC RESOURCES, INCORPORATED, 2 WHOSE OFFICES ARE AT 1060 BISHOP STREET, HONOLULU, HAWAII. 3 PACIFIC RESOURCES IS A JOINT PARTNER IN THE 4 MACARIO REFINERY PROJECT, AND CURRENTLY OPERATES ONE OF THE 5 FEW CLEAN-AIR REFINERIES IN THE UNITED STATES. THE PACIFIC 6 RESOURCES REFINERY IS HAWAIIAN INDEPENDENT REFINERY, 7 INCORPORATED, IN HONOLULU. 8 NOW, THE REASON FOR THE MACARIO REFINERY IS 9 ONE OF NEED, THE NEED FOR ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE CLEAN 10 FUELS AND THE NEED FOR A SECURE SOURCE OF SUPPLY. 11 IN OUR METHOD OF DETERMINING IF THERE WAS SUCH 12 A NEED, WE CALLED IN OUTSIDE AGENCIES, THE MC KINSEY COMPANY, 13 TO MAKE AN EVALUATION OF THE SUPPLY OF THESE FUELS. 14 AND IF YOU WOULD SHOW THE FIRST SLIDE, PLEASE. 15 I'M SORRY THAT THESE ARE A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO SEE HERE, BUT 16 WHAT I'M TRYING TO SHOW IS IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE THERE WILL 17 BE A SURPLUS OF SECURE U. S. CRUDE OIL ON THE WEST COAST. 18 HOWEVER, THE SULPHUR CONTENT WILL BE ABOVE ACCEPTABLE LIMITS. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: EXCUSE ME, MR. REHBERG. FOR THE RECORD, ARE YOU GOING TO PRESENT COPIES OF THESE SO WE CAN INCLUDE THEM IN THE RECORD? MR. REHBERG: YES, SIR, 1 WILL. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. MR. REHBERG: BUT BECAUSE OF THE NEED OF ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE FUELS, YOU WILL SEE ON THE CHART-- ------- 109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 --OR PERHAPS YOU CAN'T SEE ON THE CHART--WE HAVE ASSUMED THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL ALLOW THE IMPORT OF THE LOW- SULPHUR, OR THE SWEET, CRUDES TO CONTINUE. AND THAT AS MUCH OF THE ALASKAN CRUDE AS IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE WILL BE TRANS-SHIPPED ACROSS CALIFORNIA TO THE MIDWEST AND EAST COAST. AND IF YOU HAVE. BEEN READING THE VARIOUS TRADE JOURNALS, YOU WILL FIND THESE PLANS LISTED THEREIN. AND WE HAVE SOME AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS CHART, WHICH SHOWS THE REVERSAL OF THE FOUR CORNERS PIPELINE AND THE REVERSAL OF THE TRANSMOUNTAIN PIPELINE, TO GIVE YOU THE BASIS FOR THE ASSUMPTION OF HOW THE CRUDE SURPLUS WOULD ARRIVE. NOW, NO. 2 SLIDE, PLEASE. I BELIEVE IT WAS MENTIONED WE WOULD HAVE TO BE RATHER, I BELIEVE -- I FORGET WHAT MR. DORSEY, THE PRESIDENT OF GULF OIL SAID. STUPID MIGHT BE AN ADEQUATE EXPLANATION, TO BUILD A REFINERY CAPABILITY. AGAIN, WE'RE NOT BUILDING WHAT'S CONSIDERED A TYPICAL REFINERY WHEN THERE IS SURPLUS REFINERY CAPACITY. AND THESE CHARTS AND THE STUDY WE HAD DONE INDICATES THAT HERE ON THE WEST COAST THERE IS AN EXCESS OF REFINERY CAPACITY, BUT THESE REFINERIES ARE GASOLINE-ORIENTED. APPROXIMATELY 50 PERCENT OF THE TOTAL OUTPUT OF THESE REFINERIES ARE FOR GASOLINE. THE TYPICAL COST NEEDED TO DESULPHURIZE RESIDUAL FUELS IS AS EXPENSIVE AS A NEW REFINERY THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO INCENTIVE OR NO REASON FOR THESE CURRENT REFINERIES TO ENTER THE LOW-SULPHUR MARKET FOR TWO ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 110 REASONS: MORE LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTION AS SUCH WOULD PRODUCE MORE PRODUCTS ALREADY IN EXCESS FOR THEIR NEEDS IN THEIR REFINERY, AS THE SLIDE SHOWS. AMD, TWO, IF THEY CHANGED OVER TO THE LOW-SULPHUR TO MAKE LOW-SULPHUR WITHOUT INCREASING THEIR CAPACITY, THEY WOULD REDUCE OR ELIMINATE THE USE OF THE HIGH CAPITAL, VERY HIGH CAPITAL COST, OF UNITS THAT ARE ALREADY INSTALLED AND USED TO PRODUCE GASOLINE AND COKE. WELL, WHAT IS THE REASON WE SEE FOR THE NEED OF THE MACARiO REFINERY? PUT ON SLIDE 3. THIS, AGAIN, IS ONE DONE BY THE MC KINSEY COMPANY FOR US TO MAKE AN ANALYSIS. AND YOU WILL NOTE THAT THE GROWTH LINE WE HAVE REDUCED CONSIDERABLY BY WHAT HAS BEEN BANDIED AROUND HERE. WE HAVE TAKEN THE BEST AND MOST CONSERVATIVE GROWTH LINE THAT WE COULD COME UP WITH, THAT SEEMED -- THAT WE DIDN'T COME UP WITH; THAT THE COMPANY CAME UP WITH, MC KINSEY COMPANY, IN THEIR ANALYSIS. AND THIS SLIDE SHOWS WHY THE NEED FOR MACARIO REFINERY. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH PROJECTS. THF BOTTOM LINE, THE ONES ON THE BOTTOM THERE, IF YOU CAN SEE THE LOWEST LINE, THAT IS NOW IMPORTS, FOREIGN IMPORTS, OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL OIL, INCLUDING THAT WHICH YOU NOW USE COMING IN FROM HAWAII. THE DOTTED LINES ABOVE THAT LOW LINE ARE THE PROJECTS IN PROCESS, PRIMARILY THOSE OF STANDARD OIL OF CALIFORNIA, WHICH IS ADDING DESULPHURIZAT1 ON AND NEW DISTILLATION. THEY'RE ADDING NEW REFINERIES AT AN ------- 111 1 OLD REFINERY SITE. THOSE INCLUDE ALL OF THOSE. AND YOU WILL 2 SEE THAT THERE IS A CONSIDERABLE GAP IN THE MOST CONSERVATIVE 3 GROWTH LINE, THAT THERE IS NOT ENOUGH, CONSIDERING IMPORTS 4 AND ALL THE PROJECTS NOW IN BEING, TO FULFILL THE REQUIRE- 5 MENTS FOR THESE ENVIRONMENTAL-TYPE FUELS. 6 AS MR. BEAN AND OTHERS POINTED OUT, THE MACAR10 7 REFINERY'S PROPOSED PROCESSING UNITS ARE NOT THOSE OF THE 8 USUAL REFINERY. OUR PROCESSING EQUIPMENT IS DEDICATED TO 9 PRODUCING ENVIRONMENTALLY ACCEPTABLE FUELS. 10 PACIFIC RESOURCES IS OPERATING A CLEAN-AIR 11 REFINERY IN HAWAII, A REFINERY THAT HAS WON THE AMERICAN 12 LUNG ASSOCIATION'S BLUE SKY AWARD, AND THE GOVERNOR OF 13 HAWAII'S COMMENDATION FOR THE CORPORATION HAVING DONE THE 14 MOST TO IMPROVE THE ENVIRONMENT. 15 PACIFIC RESOURCES HAS BEEN, IS, AND WILL CONTINUE 16 TO BE INTERESTED IN OUR ENVIRONMENT. 17 THANK YOU. 18 (APPLAUSE) 19 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. REHBERG. DO 20 YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR REMARKS WHICH YOU WISH TO LEAVE 21 WITH US? SUIT YOURSELF. 22 1 WILL NEXT CALL MR. ANTHONY BELLIN OF CAMINITO 23 ESTRADA, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING HIMSELF. 24 - MR. BELLIN? 25 MR. JOHN .M. STUPPY OF JAMES DRIVE. IT DOESN'T ------- 1 12 1 SAY WHAT CITY. 2 (CRIES OF "CARLSBAD") 3 MR. STUPPY? 4 CECIL J. YOUNGSTROM OF DON ALBERTO DRIVE, 5 CARLSBAD. 6 MR. EDWARD KIMURA. 7 I READ YOUR ADDRESS AS TEMECULA. YOU'RE 8 REPRESENTING THE SIERRA CLUB, SAN DIEGO CHAPTER. 9 MR. KIMURA: MR. CHAIRMAN, MY NAME IS EDWARD 10 KIMURA. I AM SPEAKING IN BEHALF OF THE SAN DIEGO CHAPTER 11 OF THE SIERRA CLUB. 12 THE CHAPTER IS VERY CONCERNED OVER THE MANY 13 ISSUES INVOLVED IN THE CONSIDERATION OF THE PROPOSED MACAR10 14 REFINERY. THE QUESTION AT THIS HEARING IS WHETHER THE 15 PROPOSED REFINERY WILL OR WILL NOT SIGNIFICANTLY DETERIORATE 16 THE AIR QUALITY OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN, OR WHETHER THE 17 REFINERY WILL INTERFERE WITH THE ATTAINMENT AND MAINTENANCE 18 OF THE NATIONAL AIR QUALITY STANDARDS. 19 THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS AND VITAL QUESTION 20 BECAUSE IT CONCERNS THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF NOT ONLY HUMAN 2l" LIFE, BUT ALSO ANIMAL AND PLANT LIFE IN THE SAN DIEGO AREA. 22 TO THIS END, ONE MUST GO BEYOND THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THE 23 24 25 EMISSION LEVELS CREATED BY THE REFINERY WILL MEET ANY OF THE STATE OR FEDERAL STANDARDS. IT IS THE E;NV I RONMENTAL PROTEC- TION AGENCY'S OBLIGATION, AS OUR PUBLIC SERVANTS, TO ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 13 CRITICALLY EXAMINE IF ANY POTENTIAL AIR POLLUTION HAZARDS WILL BE CREATED BY THE REFINERY. THE PUBLIC MUST BE MADE FULLY AWARE OF THE TRADE-OFFS TO BE MADE FOR THE BENEFITS OF THE LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTS VERSUS THE POSSIBLE AIR POLLUTION HAZARDS CREATED BY THE REFINERY ITSELF. IN VIEW OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED TO US BY BOTH EPA AND THE APPLICANT, THE SAN DIEGO CHAPTER OF THE SIERRA CLUB CONCLUDES THAT THE DATA AND ANALYSES ARE INSUFFICIENT TO SHOW BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT THAT THE PROPOSED MACARIO REFINERY WILL NOT SIGNIFI- CANTLY DETERIORATE THE AIR QUALITY. WE MUST ALSO CONCLUDE THAT THE NEED FOR THE REFINERY PRODUCTS HAS NOT BEEN CLEARLY ESTABLISHED. THESE CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON THE FOLLOWING POINTS: 1. THE VALIDITY OF THE FORECAST METHODOLOGY USED IN THE SDGSE AND PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION IN THEIR TEN-YEAR FUEL DEMAND FORECASTS HAS BEEN RECENTLY QUESTIONED BY THE STATE ENERGY RESOURCES CONSERVATION AND DEVELOPMENT COMMISSION. ACCURATE FORECASTS ARE VITAL, AS ONE CAN SEE THE DIRECT INFLUENCE OF INCREASED ENERGY DEMANDS ON THE AIR QUALITY OF THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN. 2. IN THE EPA REPORT ENTITLED "MACARIO -- ANALYSIS OF THE S02 IMPACT ON LOCALIZED AIR QUALITY," WHICH WE RECEIVED JUST THIS PAST MONDAY, DOES NOT IN OUR ------- 1 OPINION JUSTIFY ITS CONCLUSION THAT THE PROJECT WILL NOT 2 ADVERSELY AFFECT THE MAINTENANCE OF THE CALIFORNIA STATE OR 3 NATIONAL AMBIENT AIR QUALITY STANDARDS FOR SO? IN THE SAN 4 DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL REGION. 5 ADDITIONALLY, THIS REPORT DOES NOT, IN OUR VIEW, 6 SUPPORT ITS CLAIM THAT THE AIR QUALITY WILL NOT SIGNIFI- 7 CANTLY BE DETERIORATED BY THE REFINERY. WE BELIEVE THAT 8 THE EPA SIMULATION MODEL USED TO ANALYZE THE COMBINED 9 EMISSIONS FROM THE REFINERY AND THE ENCINA POWER PLANT IS 10 NOT SUFFICIENTLY ACCURATE TO SUPPORT THEIR CONCLUSIONS. 11 EPA ITSELF IN APPENDIX A OF THIS REPORT STATES, 12 "BECAUSE OF SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL LIMITATIONS, THE 13 DIFFUSION COMPUTATION METHOD USED IN THIS MODEL MAY PROVIDE 14 'BEST ESTIMATES BUT NOT INFALLIBLE PREDICTIONS." 15 YET, IN THE MAIN BODY OF THEIR REPORT, EPA 16 PRESENTS GROUND LEVEL CONCENTRATION NUMBERS TO FOUR SIGNI- 17 FICANT FIGURES, A VERY GROSSLY MISLEADING PRACTICE. 18 WE REFER YOU TO CHAPTER 7 OF THE TEXT "FUNDA- 19 MENTALS OF AIR POLLUTION" BY SAMUEL J. WILLIAMSON. IN THIS 20 CHAPTER WILLIAMSON DISCUSSES THE LIMITATIONS OF THE MODELING 21 TECHNIQUES CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. PREDICTIONS COULD BE OF 22 SEVERAL FOLD. WE NOTED THAT THE EPA MODEL DID NOT INCLUDE 23 THE OCEAN, BUT REPLACED IT WITH A CONTINUUM OF A SIMPLISTIC 24 TOPOGRAPHY OF THE LAND AREA. IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE THERMO- 25 DYNAMICS AND OTHER FACTORS OF THE OCE'AN WOULD MODIFY THE ------- 115 1 ATMOSPHERIC MIXING OF THE EFFLUENTS. 2 THIS AND OTHER OMISSIONS AND SIMPLIFICATIONS IN 3 THE MODEL USED TO ACCURATELY SIMULATE THE EFFLUENT DISPERSAL 4 FOR THE PURPOSES OF PREDICTING GROUND-LEVEL CONCENTRATION 5 OF c>02 MAKES US BELIEVE THAT MODELING STUDIES ALONE CANNOT 6 BE USED TO DETERMINE THE IMPACT OF THE REFINERY ON THE AIR 7 QUAL.ITY. WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT THE EPA USE MORE 8 ACCURATE METHODS TO ASSESS THE EMISSIONS IMPACT. 9 3. THE ANALYSIS OF THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE IMPACT 10 PRESENTED THUS FAR BY THE EPA IGNORES THE FACT THAT THIS 11 POLLUTANT WILL FURTHER OXIDIZE IN THE ATMOSPHERE AND COMBINE 12 WITH THE MOISTURE IN THE AIR TO FORM A SULPHURIC ACID RAIN 13 FALLOUT. THIS REACTION, AS WELL AS THE SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS 14 OF SULPHUR DIOXIDE WITH THE OTHER AIR POLLUTANTS, SUCH AS 15 .NITROGEN DIOXIDE, PARTICULATE MATTER, AND EVEN SALT BROUGHT 16 IN BY THE OCEAN SPRAY PRESENT ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE IMPACT 17 OF REFINERY EMISSIONS THAT MUST BE STUDIED. 18 WE EXPR-ESSED THIS CONCERN IN OUR PREVIOUS 19 STATEMENT TO THE EPA DATED THE 1 3TH OF JUNE, 1975 IN REGARD 20 TO THE MACARIO PROJECT. IN THAT STATEMENT WE CITED 21 REFERENCES DESCRIBING THE ADVERSE CONSEQUENCES OF THE ACID 22 RAIN FALLOUT AND THE SYNERGISTIC COMBINATION OF SULPHUR 23 DIOXIDE AND NITROGEN DIOXIDE ON PLANT LIFE. 24 - THESE REFERENCES INDICATE SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE 25 COULD OCCUR EVEN WHEN THE SULPHUR DIOXIDE EMISSION LEVELS ------- 116 1 WERE BELOW THE STATE AND FEDERAL STANDARDS BECAUSE OF THIS 2 MULTIPLIER EFFECT. THIS IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THE IMPACT OF 3 SULPHUR DIXOIDE EMISSIONS ON THE PUBLIC HEALTH MUST BE 4 EXAMINED BY TH'E EPA. 5 IN CONCLUSION, WE MUST REAFFIRM OUR PREVIOUS 6 COMMENTS ON THE EPA EVALUATION, AND REQUEST THAT THE EPA 7 PERFORM A MORE THOROUGH AND INDEPENDENT ANALYSIS, GIVING 8 PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO ALTERNATIVE EVALUATIONS WITH RESPECT 9 TO THE END USE OF THE PRODUCTS OF THE REFINERY. 10 THANK YOU. 11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. K1MURA. 12 (APPLAUSE) 13 A COPY OF MR. KIMURA'S REMARKS WILL BE MARKED 14 AS EXHIBIT 23 FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS RECORD. 15 AND MR. COVINGTON HAS SOME QUESTIONS. 16 MR. COVINGTON: MR. KIMURA, WE VERY MUCH APPRE- 17 CIATE THE DETAILED ANALYSIS ON THIS. HOW CAN WE ARRANGE TO 18 GET WITH YOU OR WHOMEVER TO EXPLORE MORE FULLY THE DETAILS 19 OF YOUR CONCERNS? 20 MR. KIMURA: I HAD A LENGTHY DISCUSSION WITH 21 MR. JIM GROBJ? OF YOUR OFFICE LAST FRIDAY AND DID DISCUSS 22 SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS IN DETAIL. 23 MR. COVINGTON: so YOU THINK YOU HAVE CONVEYED 24 THE SPECIFICS OF THESE? 25 MR. KIMURA: IN LARGE MEASURE, YES. ------- 117 1 MR. COVINGTON: PERSONALLY FOLLOW UP, IF NEED BE. 2 MR. KIMURA: WITH RESPECT TO THE CHAPTER, YES. 3 MR. COVINGTON: THANK YOU.' THAT'S ALL. 4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. 5 MR. WILLIAM H. COLE OF SANTA CLARA, VISTA, 6 DISTRICT COUNCIL OF CARPENTERS. 7 MR. COLE: MR. CHAIRMAN, MEMBERS OF THE PANEL, 8 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN: I AM IN A POSITION HERE SOMEWHAT 9 SIMILAR TO THE STORY OF THE WOMAN WHO WENT INTO THE DRESS 10 STORE AND SHE PICKED THE MOST UNGODLY DRESS YOU COULD FIND, 1] TRIED IT ON, AND SHE ASKED THE CLERK, "SALLY, HOW DOES THIS 12 LOOK ON ME?" 13 SHE SAYS, "IT'S YOU, IT'S YOU." 14 THE LADY SAYS, "FORGET I OWN 80 PERCENT OF THE 15 BUSINESS. HOW DOES IT LOOK ON ME?" 16 WELL, FORGET I'M REPRESENTING 7,000 CARPENTERS. 17 OF COURSE, ANY OF US AND ALL OF US IN THE BUILDING TRADES 18 WANT OUR MEN WORKING ON THAT PROJECT, BUT I THINK THAT'S 19 SOMETHING TO LOOK TO THAT'S A LOT FURTHER AWAY THAN THAT. 20 WE HAVE'AN INITIATIVE COMING UP IN JUNE TO STOP ATOMIC 21 ENERGY. THE SIERRA CLUB IS FAMOUS FOR STOPPING ONE OF THE 22 CLEANEST TYPES OF ENERGY WE CAN POSSIBLY GET, AND THAT'S 23 HYDROELECTRIC1TY. AN OUTFIT IS COMING IN HERE WITH A PROCESS 24 OF CLEANING UP FUEL OIL, WHICH OUR GOVERNMENT HAS FLATLY 25 TOLD THEM THEY EITHER GET CLEANED UP OR THEY AREN'T GOING TO ------- 118 1 BE USING THEM. LET'S STOP IT ALL. 2 IT WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL IF WE COULD ALL GO BACK 3 TO 150 YEARS AGO, GET A FEW ACRES, MAYBE GET A WINDMILL AND 4 A PUMP. 1 DON'T KNOW WHAT KEROSENE HAS, HOW IT'S RATED, 5 WHETHER IT'S IN THE POLLUTION BUSINESS, BUT WE COULD HAVE 6 KEROSENE. WE CAN'T RETURN TO THIS. WE ARE STUCK, WE ARE 7 GONE, WE ARE PAST THAT. THERE'S NOT A DAMN ONE OF US IN 8 HERE THAT WOULD SIT STILL NIGHT AFTER NIGHT TRYING TO' READ 9 SOMETHING WITH A KEROSENE LAMP. WE GET HYSTERICAL WHEN THE 10 TELEVISION GOES OFF. 1] THE AGENCY HAS TOLD YOU THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN 12 SECTIONS THAT CANNOT BE TURNED OFF WITH GAS, AND THAT'S YOUR 13 HOME, YOUR PERMANENT CUSTOMERS. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE 14 REST OF YOU, BUT I HAVEN'T LIKED THE PRICES OF MY FUEL BILLS 15 LATELY. BUT IF I WAS WORKING IN A PLANT AND THE GOVERNMENT 16 COME ALONG AND SAYS, "OKAY, HOLD IT, WE HAVEN'T GOT ENOUGH 17 GAS FOR YOUR PLANT, SO YOU'RE ONLY GOING TO BE WORKING TH.REE 18 DAYS," IF I LOST TWO DAYS AND ADDED THAT TO MY GAS AND ELECTR 19 BILL, IT WOULD-BE ONE HECK OF A BILL. I WOULD LIKE YOU TO 20 LOOK WITH AN OPEN MIND TO THE FUTURE. 2i A STATEMENT WAS MADE HERE BY ONE OF THE EARLIER 22 YOUNG MEN THAT SPOKE. IT'S FRUSTRATING BUILDING, BUT OUR 23 WHOLE COUNTRY WAS BASED ON BUILDING. OUR COUNTRY AND 24 EVERYTHING THAT WE BELIEVE IN HAS BEEN BUILT FROM THE EAST 25 COAST OUT WEST. ------- 119 1 THE STATEMENT WAS MADE THAT SATELLITE BUSINESSES 2 WOULD COME IN. MY G-OD, LET'S HOPE SO, LET'S HOPE SO. WHAT 3 ARE YOU GOING TO TELL YOUR YOUNG SON AND YOUR DAUGHTER WHEN 4 THEY GRADUATE OUT OF COLLEGE? "OKAY, YOUR TIME IS UP, GET 5 OUT OF TOWN, THERE ARE NO JOBS HERE FOR YOU." 6 I SPENT A GOOD AMOUNT OF TIME IN MY YOUNG LIFE 7 THINKING, "SURE, THERE WOULD BE NO JOB FOR YOU," NOT g "SATELLITE BUSINESS, I DON'T WANT ANY OF THOSE." 9 THINK, IF YOU CAN, WITH AN OPEN MIND OF WHAT WE 1Q GOT AHEAD OF US IN THE FUTURE. IT'S NOT JUST A LITTLE n IMMEDIATE THING RIGHT HERE IN CARLSBAD. THIS IS A NATIONAL 12 PROBLEM. 13 MR. PR1TTEN: MR. CHAIRMAN, I WISH TO 14 PROTEST. THIS IS A HEARING ON AIR POLLUTION. IF YOU WANT ,5 TO TALK ABOUT OTHER JOBS AND OTHER RELATED FACTORS -- 16 (APPLAUSE) -- 17 MR. COLE: i WILL TALK ON AIR POLLUTION. ]g CHAIRMAN WALKER: PLEASE DO. 19 MR. COLE: WE HAD SOME IN THIS ROOM HERE A WHILE 20 BACK. I BELIEVE IT WAS MR. SOMMERFIELD. 1 HOPE HE IS IN 21 HERE AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT. I WANT TO GET -- 22 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I'D JUST AS SOON WE NOT ENGAGE 23 IN PERSONALITIES. WE HAVE A JOB TO DO. WE ARE HERE TO HEAR 24 WHAT- YOU HAVE TO SAY. 25 MR. COLE: YOUR AIR POLLUTION MAN STATED -- ------- 120 1 CHAIRMAN WALKER: JUST A MINUTE. OUR JOB IS TO 2 LISTEN TO THE PUBLIC HERE. WE ARE GOING TO TRY TO DO OUR 3 BEST TO LISTEN TO ALL THE PEOPLE. WE UNDERSTAND IN ANY 4 PUBLIC HEARING PEOPLE DO DIGRESS, AND WE ARE TOLERANT OF 5 THAT. I AM WATCHING THE TIME ON PEOPLE, AND 1 DON'T THINK 6 IT HAS BEEN ABUSED. 7 MR. COLE: I WILL CLOSE. 8 CHAIRMAN WALKER: GO AHEAD, MR. COLE, AND SAY 9 WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY. WE DON'T WANT TO CUT YOU SHORT. 10 MR- COLE: I'LL MAKE MY CLOSING WITH A HOPE YOU 11 WILL LOOK TO THE FUTURE ABILITY OF A REFINERY TO PRODUCE 12 FUEL THAT WILL BE CLEAN FOR YOUR ENVIRONMENT. 13 (APPLAUSE) 14 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. COLE. 15 FOR THE RECORD, WE WILL NOTE THAT MR. COLE TOOK 16 FIVE MINUTES. 17 MR. HAROLD WOLFF OF SNEAD DRIVE, OCEANSIDE. 18 MR. WOLFF: HAROLD WOLFF, PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER, 19 STATE OF CALIFORNIA. CHEMICAL ENGINEER, RETIRED AT THE 20 PRESENT TIME. MY BACKGROUND IS VERY MUCH LIKE MR. KAPLAN'S, 21 40 YEARS IN THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRY. 22 CHAIRMAN WALKER: DO WE HAVE ANY ELECTRICAL 23 ENGINEERS THAT CAN TELL US WHY WE'RE GETTING THIS BUZZ? 24 MR. WOLFF: NO, I'M ONLY CHEMICAL. 25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: GO AHEAD. ------- 121 MR. WOLFF: AND i WANT TO REITERATE MR. KAPLAN'S 2 REMARKS ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE APPRAISAL THAT HAS BEEN 3 MADE BY EPA ON THE BASIS OF THE INFORMATION THEY HAVE. FROM 4 WHAT I SAW, 1 THINK IT WAS A HIGHLY CREDITABLE AND FAIR 5 APPRAISAL. 6 HOWEVER, THERE'S ONE MAJOR DISCREPANCY THAT I 7 NOTED IN GOING OVER THE MATER IAL THAT EPA FORWARDED, AND THAT 8 IS RELATED TO THE EMISSIONS FROM THE FLARE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF 9 SYSTEM. NOW, THE EMISSIONS FROM THE FLARE AND PRESSURE-RELIEF 10 SYSTEMS WERE SHOWN UNDER UPSET CONDITIONS WITH THE ONLY EMISSION AS HYDROCARBONS. NOW, 1 HAVE NOT SEEN THE DETAILED PROCESSING, BUT JUST THE BULK FLUOR I DE- RI M OF THE SULPHUR RECOVERY PLANT, WHICH I ASSUME WOULD ALSO BE TIED INTO THE FLARE SYSTEM AND THE PRESSURE-RELIEF SYSTEM, AND THERE WOULD BE NO HYDROCARBON EMISSIONS FROM THE SULPHUR RECOVERY PLANT. IT WOULD HAVE TO BE FORMS OF SULPHUR. IN REVIEWING THE PROCESS FROM DESULPHURIZATI ON BY THE DIETHYLNOL DESULPHURIZAT I ON PROCESS, SULPHUR IS TURNED INTO HYDROGEN SULPHIDE. HYDROGEN SULPHIDE, A GAS ITSELF, IS HIGHLY TOXIC IN ITS PURE FORM. IN PARTS PER MILLION IT IS LETHAL. SO, THE INVENTORY OF HYDROGEN SULPHIDE IN THE PLANT MUST NECESSARILY BE LOW FROM THE HYDROGEN SULPHIDE COMBUSTION AND REACTION THAT TAKES PLACE WHICH CHANGES THE SULPHUR FROM HYDROGEN SULPHIDE TO ELEMENTAL SULPHIDE. THIS 25 PROCESS IS NOT A REFINING PROCESS, IT'S NOT ONE THAT MAKES 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ------- 122 1 FUEL; IT IS A CHEMICAL PLANT PROCESS, AND ] WISH TO POINT 2 THIS OUT IN THE DESIGN OF A REFINING PROCESS. 3 SERVICE FACTORS OF 98 PERCENT OR MORE CAN BE OBTAINED. THAT IS THE ON-STREAM TIME WHERE SHUTDOWNS CAN 5 BE PLANNED, LET'S SAY, SOMETHING LIKE SIX DAYS A YEARS, A 6 WEEK A YEAR. YOU CAN PLAN THESE SHUTDOWNS AND TAKE CARE OF 7 ALL YOUR MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS. BUT FROM MY EXPERIENCE 8 IN THE OPERATION OF CHEMICAL PLANTS, THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE, 9 PARTICULARLY IN SUCH SYSTEMS WHICH ARE HIGHLY CORROSIVE 10 AND TEND TO PLUG. THESE MAINTENANCE ITEMS HAVE TO BE TAKEN H CARE OF B^ IMMEDIATE SHUTDOWNS. 12 WHEN A CHEMICAL PLANT IS IMMEDIATELY SHUT DOWN, ,3 THE PRODUCTS IN INVENTORY WITHIN THE PLANT HAVE TO BE FLARED. 14 THESE PRODUCTS WOULD BE FLARED WHERE THE H2S WOULD BE FORMED 15 INTO CONCENTRATED SULPHUR DIOXIDE. 16 ALONG THIS VEIN, THIS PRODUCT, DEPENDING ON THE 17 HEIGHT OF THE FLARE, WHICH WAS NOT MENTIONED, WOULD THEN 18 BE ADDED TO THE TOTAL ATMOSPHERE. AND IN TIMES OF UPSET 19 THERE WILL BE VERY HIGH CONCENTRATIONS OF S02. THESE HAVE 20 .NOT BEEN TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN THE EVALUATION OF THE 21 FLARE SYSTEM AND, AS EAR AS I CAN SEE, WERE NOT IN ANY WAY 22 IN THE ESTIMATES OF THE EMISSIONS. 23 NORMALLY A CHEMICAL PLANT WILL HAVE APPROXIMATELY 24 A 90 PERCENT STREAM FACTOR. MAYBE UP TO 92 OR 93 PERCENT. 25 SO, HERE YOU HAVE A REFINERY WITH A 98 PERCENT STREAM FACTOR ------- 123 1 AND A CHEMICAL PLANT WITH SOME LOWER STREAM FACTOR. NOW, THE 2 REFINERY WILL BE HANDLING PRODUCT VALUE OF, LET'S SAY, 3 100,000 BARRELS A DAY OF OIL AT ROUGHLY $10 A BARREL. THAT 4 WILL BE A MILLION DOLLARS A DAY. THE CHEMICAL PRODUCT, OR 5 SULPHUR RECOVERY UNIT, WILL HANDLE A PRODUCT OF 200 TONS A 6 DAY, WHICH, ON THE OUTSIDE, WOULD BRING $100 A TON OR $200 7 A DAY. SO, HERE THE TAIL WAGS THE DOG, IN WHICH THE REFINERY 8 WILL BE OPERATED AND CHEMICAL PLANT IN PART WILL -BE DOWN AND 9 THE PRODUCT OF THE DESULPHURIZATI ON WILL BE FLARED. IT WILL 10 BE FLARED AT A RATE, DEPENDING ON THE INPUT, WHICH I DON'T 11 HAVE, OF SOMETHING ON THE ORDER OF 2200 TO 3000 TONS A DAY 12 OF SULPHUR DIOXIDE. 13 NOW, THIS HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED IN ANY OF THE 14 DESIGN PLANS 1 HAVE SEEN AS TO WHAT WILL HAPPEN DURING UPSET 15 CONDITIONS OF THIS KIND. 16 FURTHERMORE, IN THE START OF A NEW PLANT--AND I 17 HAVE BEEN ON A NUMBER OF THEM--THERE IS A PERIOD IN WHICH A 18 PLANT IS BROKEN IN, AND THERE ARE UPSETS AND THERE ARE UPS 19 AND DOWNS. DURING THIS PERIOD THESE PLANTS WILL BE UP AND 20 DOWN OVER THE FIRST THREE- TO SIX- TO EIGHT-MONTH PERIOD, 21 DEPENDING ON THE QUALITY OF THE MATERIALS, THE QUALITY OF 22 THE ENGINEERING, THE CONSTRUCTION THAT HAS BEEN DONE. AND 23 DURING THESE PERIODS YOU WILL HAVE VERY MUCH EXCESSIVE FLARE 24 SO THAT IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF OPERATION I BELIEVE YOU 25 CAN EXPECT A NUMBER OF UPSETS. I HAVE NOT SEEN A CHEMICAL ------- 124 1 PLANT COME ON STREAM, PARTICULARLY A NEW PLANT, A DESIGN OF 2 THIS KIND, THAT CAN BE GUARANTEED A SMOOTH START-UP. IT'S 3 MUCH WORSE THAN BREAKING IN A NEW CAR. 4 SO, ON THIS BASIS, I WOULD URGE EPA TO DEFER 5 THEIR APPROVAL OF THIS UNTIL MORE DETAILED INFORMATION IS 6 AVAILABLE IN RELATION TO HOW THE EMERGENCY PLANNING AND UPSET 7 CONDITIONS OF THE CHEMICAL PLANT OR THE CHEMICAL PART OF THE 8 AIR WILL BE HANDLED. 9 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, SIR. 10 MR. SW1CKER HAS SOME QUESTIONS. 11 MR. SWICKER: YOU'RE INDICATING MALFUNCTIONS, 12 BREAKDOWNS WOULD OCCUR BEYOND THE BREAK-IN PERIOD. HOW OFTEN 13 WOULD YOU ESTIMATE, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, SUCH BREAKDOWNS 14 AND MALFUNCTIONS MIGHT TEND TO OCCUR IN A RECOVERY OF THIS 15 TYPE? 16 MR. WOLFF: I WOULD SAY ON THE BASIS OF NEW 17 DESIGN TECHNOLOGY, IF ONE ATTAINED AFTER TWO TO THREE YEARS 18 A 90 TO 95 PERCENT STREAM FACTOR, THIS WOULD BE HIGHLY i 19 SATISFACTORY FOR THE NATURE OF THIS OPERATION. 20 THIS IS A FOULING SYSTEM, IT'S HIGHLY CORROSIVE. 21 HEAT EXCHANGES PLUG, THE PRODUCTS OF CORROSION COME OUT ALL j 22 OVER, PUMPS SHUT DOWN. NOW, THIS CAN BE TAKEN CARE OF IN A 23 FASHION BY PUMPS, BY HAVING ADDITIONAL UNITS WHICH WOULD 24 TAKE- CARE OF THESE THINGS. BUT NOT HAVING THE DETAILED 25 DESIGN OF THE UNIT, ONE CANNOT VISUALIZE THE OPERAT1 ON' UNTIL ------- 1 THE DESIGN HAS BEEN MADE. 2 THE NAVY TAKES CARE OF SUCH BREAKDOWNS BY HAVING 3 REPLICATION -- DUPLICATION OF EQUIPMENT. THEY HAVE, SAY, 4 THREE OR FOUR WAYS TO GO WHEN THERE'S A BREAKDOWN. BUT, 5 NORMALLY, IN A REFINERY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE. THEY LIKE TO 6 MAKE THEM SINGLE-TRA1N. THEY SPARE CERTAIN THINGS. BUT WHEN 7 A MAJOR BREAKDOWN OCCURS, BANG, THAT UNIT IS SHUT DOWN, 8 EVERYTHING GOES TO THE FLARE, AND YOU CAN SEE IT. AND WHEN 9 H2S BURNS, IT'S A BEAUTIFUL NICE BLUISH GREEN AND RAINS DOWN 10 AND THE PAINT -- 1 DON'T WANT TO GET EMOTIONAL. 11 (APPLAUSE) 12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE STILL HAVE A LARGE NUMBER 13 OF CARDS TO GO, BUT THE REPORTER HAS BEEN GOING FULL SPEED 14 SINCE WE RECONVENED AFTER THE NOON RECESS. WE WILL NOW TAKE 15 A 15-MINUTE RECESS. AND I SHOULD LIKE TO BE VERY PROMPT 16 ABOUT THAT. 15 MINUTES. 17 (RECESS) lg CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL GO BACK ON THE RECORD 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NOW. WE HAVE FOUND THE ANNOYING BUZZ THAT WAS IN THE MICRO- PHONES UP HERE AT THE DAIS, SO THOSE UP HERE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO RAISE OUR VOICES IN ORDER TO REACH YOU (BUZZ) (LAUGHTER). DURING THE RECESS IT WAS QUIET. WE DO HAVE SOME HOUSEKEEPING TO DO AT THIS TIME. SOME OF THE EXHIBITS SUBMITTED BY THE REFINERY THIS MORNING ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 126 HAVE NOW BEEN REPRODUCED SO WE CAN 1NCORPORATE . THEM IN THE RECORD, AND THE BAR GRAPH THAT WAS DISCUSSED WILL BE EXHIBIT NO. 24. THE CHART SHOWING SULPHUR DISTRIBUTION IN WORLD CRUDE RESERVES WILL BE EXHIBIT 23. AND A SIMPLIFIED REFINERY PROCESS SCHEME WILL BE E XHIBIT 26. THE AERIAL PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS SHOWN WILL BE EXHIBIT 27. THE SKETCH MAP WILL BE EXHIBIT 28. THE DOCUMENT THAT WAS REFERRED TO THIS MORNING, THE PRESS RELEASE OF THE AGENCY DATED MAY 7TH, 1975, THAT WAS NOT HERETOFORE INTRODUCED, WILL BE EXHIBIT 2.9- THE NEXT CARD IS FOR ED AND NAOMI WEBER, SAN D1EGUITO. 1 WILL NOT PRESUME THAT EITHER SPEAKS FOR THE OTHER. ARE THEY BOTH HERE? DO THEY BOTH WANT TO SPEAK? OR IS ElTHER HERE? NO SHOW. THE NEXT CARD IS MARILYN MACKETT, VANTAGE WAY, REPRESENTING THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS. MS. MACKETT: MY NAME IS MARILYN MACKETT, AND I LIVE AT 2438 VANTAGE WAY, DEL MAR. 1 AM SPEAKING TODAY FOR THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY, WHICH IS COMPOSED OF FIVE LOCAL LEAGUES OF AROUND A THOUSAND MEMBERS CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT MICROPHONE WORKS. ------- 1 MS. MACKETT: FOR SEVERAL DECADES OUR NATIONAL 2 ORGANIZATION, THE LEAGUE OF WOMAN VOTERS OF THE UNITED 3 STATES, HAS ACTIVELY WORKED FOR IMPROVEMENT IN OUR ENVIRON- 4 MENT. EXTENSIVE STUDIES HAVE BEEN MADE BY LEAGUE MEMBERS OF 5 THE ISSUES OF AIR QUALITY AND ENERGY CONSERVATION. 6 THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY 7 COMMENDS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY FOR BEING HERE 8 TODAY SO WE CAN PARTICIPATE WITHIN THE HEARING REGARDING THE 9 REFINERY PROPOSAL. THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN- DIEGO 10 COUNTY BELIEVES PUBLIC INTEREST DEMANDS THAT WE NOT MEET OUR 11 ENERGY NEEDS BY PERMITTING AIR POLLUTION TO RISE TO LEVELS 12 THAT ENDANGER HUMAN HEALTH. WE ARE CONCERNED THAT ALTHOUGH 13 THE TOTAL REGION-WIDE POLLUTANT BURDEN MAY BE REDUCED BY 14 INCREASED USE OF LOW-SULPHUR FUEL PRODUCTS FROM THE REFINERY, 15 SULPHUR DIOXIDE AND, TO A LESSER EXTENT, NITROGEN DIOXIDE, 16 EMITTED AT THE PLANT SITE WILL ADVERSELY AFFECT LIFE WITHIN . 17 THE VICINITY OF THE PLANT. WE ARE CONCERNED THAT SUCH 18 EMISSIONS WILL NOT BE DIFFUSED THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SAN 19 DIEGO COUNTY REGION AND THUS WILL NOT BE DILUTED, A TRADE-OFF 20 WE CONSIDER UNACCEPTABLE. THUS, THE IMPACT ON THE FEW IS 21 ALSO NECESSARY TO CONSIDER. 22 THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY 23 QUESTIONS EPA'S BASING ITS TENTATIVE DECISION TO APPROVE 24 THE REFINERY PROJECT ON THE PREMISE THAT ALL OF THE REFINERY'S 25 PRODUCTS WILL BE USED IN THE SAN DIEGO AIR QUALITY CONTROL ------- 128 1 REGION WHEN NO PROPOSAL IS MADE FOR A MEANS OF GUARANTEEING 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 LOCAL--THAT IS, SAN DIEGO COUNTY--PRODUCT DISTRIBUTION. THE LEAGUE NOTES THAT NO MENTION IS MADE IN ERA'S REFINERY REPORT OF ATTACHING CONDITIONS TO AN EPA PERMIT THAT WOULD CALL FOR BEST AVAILABLE CONTROL TECHNOLOGY IN THE CONSTRUCTION AND OPERATION OF THE REFINERY. WE STRONGLY URGE PROVISIONS FOR SUCH CONDITIONS. SEVERAL DISTINCT METEOROLOGICAL ASPECTS OF THE COASTAL ZONE APPEAR TO COMBINE TO CREATE AN UNUSUALLY CRITICAL AIR AREA IN NORTH SAN DIEGO COUNTY. THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS BELIEVES, THEREFORE, THAT ANY DECISION THAT MIGHT RESULT IN FURTHER DEGRADATION OF AIR QUALITY SHOULD BE MADE ONLY WITH SUBSTANTIAL, UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION BASED ON ACTUAL DATA DERIVED FROM A FAR MORE COMPLETE SYSTEM OF MONITORING THAN HAS EXISTED UP TO THE PRESENT TIME BOTH IN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY AND SURROUNDING REGION OF THE PROPOSED R'EFINERY. WE STRONGLY URGE THAT YOUR AGENCY DELAY ANY DECISION AT LEAST UNTIL THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY SMOG MODEL BEING PREPARED BY THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT AND THE CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION IS REFINED, ENABLING FURTHER, MORE ACCURATE DETERMINATION OF THE REAL AIR QUALITY IMPACT OF THE REFINERY. WE BELIEVE IT IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT THAT A FINAL DECISION BY EPA NOT BE MADE UNTIL POSSIBLE SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS OF THE ENCINA POWER ------- 129 1 PLANT AND THE REFINERY ARE KNOWN. 2 (APPLAUSE) 3, CHAIRMAN WALKER: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF YOUR 4 REMARKS? 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. MACKETT: YES, I HAVE GIVEN ONE TO YOUR COORD!NATOR. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. IT WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 30. I HAVE A CARD FROM JEAN SLOAN. MS. SLOAN: YOU WANT ME ALL THE WAY UP TO THE PODIUM? I MERELY WISH TO ENDORSE THE FOREGOING STATEMENTS. I COME FROM ESCONDIDO. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. AND YOU ARE THE JEAN SLOAN OF ESCONDIDO? MS. SLOAN: 1929 SORRENTINO DRIVE. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU.. MR. COVINGTOIM: BEFORE WE LOSE ANY OF YOU: WE HAVE RECEIVED A VARIETY OF QUESTIONS WHICH WE HAVE ANSWERED SOME DURING THESE INFORMAL BREAKS OR DISCUSSIONS AND, IN OTHER CASES, PERHAPS, WE HAVE NOT. IN SOME CASES THE QUESTIONS ARE BEYOND OUR ABILITY TO RESPOND TO INASMUCH AS THEY DIRECTLY RELATE TO THE COMPANY INVOLVED. WHAT WE WOULD PROPOSE TO DO AT THE - AS WE GET ON WITH THE HEARING AND BRING IT TO A CONCLUSION, IS TO AGAIN GO OFF THE RECORD AND TO ANSWER ANY AND ALL QUESTIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN ANSWERED. ------- 1 30 1 THOSE THAT YOU RAISED WITH US. 2 I HAVE ASKED IF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE COMPANY 3 COULD OR WOULD REMAIN TO ANSWER THOSE THAT ARE WITHIN THEIR 4 PURVIEW. SO, IF THAT'S ACCEPTABLE, THIS IS THE WAY WE WOULD 5 TRY TO HANDLE THAT PART OF THE PROGRAM. 6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 NOW HAVE A CARD FOR JOAN 7 JACKSON. IT LOOKS LIKE THE SAME NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE JOAN 8 JACKSON WHO SPOKE PREVIOUSLY. ARE THERE TWO OF YOU? 9 ALL RIGHT. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: SURE IT'S NOT GENE 11 JACKSON? 12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: NO, THIS IS PRINTED, AND I 13 CAN READ IT QUITE CLEARLY. MAYBE THE EARLIER ONE IS GENE. 14 SHOULD 1 LOOK BACK. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: NO. 16 CHAIRMAN WALKER: L. W. RASH, HIGHLAND DRIVE, 17 CARLSBAD. 18 MR. RASH: MR. NAME IS RASH. I LIVE AT 19 4156 HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD, AND I'M SPEAKING FOR MYSELF. 20 INASMUCH AS THE GROUND RULES THAT YOU LAID OUT 21 THIS MORNING HAVE BEEN VIOLATED IN SEVERAL CASES, I HOPE YOU 22 WILL BEAR WITH ME A BRIEF DEPARTURE. 23 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL BEAR WITH YOU FOR A 24 SHORT TIME, BUT RESTRAIN YOURSELF. 25 MR. RASH: FIRST, IT SEEMS IRONIC TO ME THESE ------- 1 31 HEARINGS ARE BEING HELD AND THE NEWSPAPERS ARE CARRYING BANNER HEADLINES, THE TV IS DEVOTING SOME TIME TO IT ON THE EVENING NEWS, THAT AN OIL REFINERY IS GOING TO BUILT IN CARLSBAD, CALIFORNIA. BUT AS LATE AS NOON FRIDAY THERE WAS NO OFFICIAL REQUEST MADE FOR SUCH A PROJECT TO BE BUILT IN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD, AS TOLD TO ME BY THE CITY MANAGER. WE FEEL IN THE ABSENCE OF A SPECIFIC PLAN, EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS 855 ACRES, THAT THE CARLSBAD CITIZENS SHOULD BE THE FIRST TO KNOW. I ALSO BELIEVE, IF IT'S GOING TO BE HOME RULE ANYWHERE ALONG THE LINE, THAT YOU START JUST HERE. IT'S MY STRONG BELIEF THAT THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD THROUGH THEIR ELECTED OFFICIALS SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE CITY IN WHICH WE ALL HOPE TO LIVE UNTIL WE DIE. SOME OF US. IF THIS REFINERY IS BUILT IN THE PRESENT -- AT THE PRESENT SITE THAT'S INDICATED, IT WILL SET A PRECEDENT UNFAIRLY ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND, I DARE SAY, IN THE WORLD. EVERYBODY TELLS US, EVEN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE 200,000 PEOPLE HERE IN A FEW YEARS, AND THIS REFINERY REPRESENTS THE GEOGRAPHIC CENTER OF CARLSBAD IN THAT POPULATION. IF THERE WERE OIL WELLS THERE PUMPING THE OIL TO BE REFINED, I WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT. THAT IS NOT THE CASE. ALL THIS OIL IS GOING TO BE -- HAVE TO BE TRANSPORTED TO THIS LOCATION. THE BY-PRODUCTS THAT ARE NOT USED HERE ARE GOING ------- 1 32 TO HAVE TO BE TRANSFERRED ELSEWHERE. AND THAT IS OF SOME CONCERN TO THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD THAT LIVE HERE AND LOVE THEIR BEACHES. AND BEGINNING TO SEE THE SUPERTANKERS ON THE HORIZONS OF OUR BEACHES. I FEEL LIKE I'M GOING TO HAVE TO BE FACETIOUS FOR ONE MINUTE. THE GENTLEMAN'S REMARK THIS MORNING ABOUT THE RETIRED PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY -- I'M RETIRED, AND I THINK EVERYBODY HERE WILL RETIRE IF THEY LIVE LONG ENOUGH, SO I THINK THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR. AND JUST FOR HIS INFORMA- TION, 1 DO RESENT THE FACT HE IS NOT WORKING BECAUSE PART OF MY TAXES IS PAID AS UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THAT'S ENOUGH DIGRESSION. MR. RASH: WE HAD ANOTHER DEPARTURE AS TO THE JOBS THAT'S GOING TO BE CREATED BY THIS OIL REFINERY IF IT WENT IN. 1 HAVE VERY RECENTLY, AS MUCH AS S 1 X YEARS AGO, MOVED FROM AN AREA WHERE THEY BUILT A REFINERY, WHERE THEY BEGGED THEM TO COME AND BUILD IT. BUT THEY DIDN'T BUILD IT IN THE CENTER OF TOWN; THEY BUILT IT SEVEN MILES OUT IN THE SWAMP. AND THEY HAD TO HIRE TRUCKS TO DRAW THE EARTH TO BUILD IT ON, TO PUT IT IN THE SWAMP. 1 AM SPEAKING OF THE STANDARD OIL COMPANY IN PASCAGOULA, MISSISSIPPI. OVER THE YEARS I WATCHED IT BEING BUILT AND I WATCHED WHO BUILT IT. WE HAD PEOPLE FROM ALABAMA, ARKANSAS, TEXAS, OKALHOMA, EVERYWHERE YOU COULD THINK OF POUR INTO THAT TOWN TO BUILD THAT OIL REFINERY BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE ------- 133 1 EXPERTISE TO BUILD OIL REFINERIES BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR 2 BUSINESS. AND FOR THESE LOCAL PIPEFITTERS GOING TO GET A 3 JOB TO BUILD THAT REFINERY, THAT SEEMS REMOTE TO ME. I KNOW, 4 BECAUSE I WAS THERE. 5 WHEN THE OIL REFINERY WAS BUILT WITHIN FIVE 6 YEARS -- NOW I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS DOCUMENTED PROOF THAT 7 THIS WAS THE CAUSE OR THE EFFECT OF THE REFINERY, BUT IT'S 8 A FACT THAT I KNOW. I WATCHED THE HOUSES TURN YELLOW BECAUSE 9 OF THE RELATED INDUSTRY THAT CAME IN THERE, WHICH IS BEYOND 10 THE IMAGINATION OF THE PEOPLE HERE THAT LIVE IN CARLSBAD, AS ]] CLEAN AS OUR AIR IS HERE NOW. WE HAD FISH MEAL PLANTS, WE 12 HAD CHEMICAL FERTILIZER PLANTS, WE HAD PULP MILLS, BRICKYARDS, 13 PETROCHEMICAL PLANTS, AND IT GOES ALL DOWN THE LINE. I'M NOT 14 SAYING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN HERE, BUT IT CERTAINLY CAN 15 HAPPEN. 16 WHAT I'M SAYING, WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IS 17 GOING TO BE BUILT IN THE 855 ACRES SURROUNDING THIS OIL 18 REFINERY. SO, I SAY AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE THIS HEARING IS 19 PREMATURE WITHOUT AN EIR THAT THE PEOPLE OF CARLSBAD CAN 20 LOOK TO SEE WHAT THEY'RE PUTTING THEMSELVES IN FOR. 21 THANKS VERY MUCH FOR LETTING ME SAY MY PIECE. 22 (APPLAUSE) 23 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 HAVE A CARD HERE FOR MISS 24 HILDA A. WENR1CK, BUT MY NOTE SAYS SHE EARLIER INDICATED 25 SHE DID NOT CARE TO SPEAK. IS SHE HERE? DOES SHE WISH TO ------- 1 SPEAK? 2 MS. WENRICK: NO. IT HAS BEEN JUSTLY SAID. 3 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MISS WENRICK. 4 MS. POPPY DEMARCO. 5 MS. LAW: I'M NOT POPPY. SHE HAD TO GO HOME. 6 BUT SHE ASKED ME TO SUBMIT THIS FOR YOUR RECORDS. 7 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WOULD YOU TELL us WHAT THIS 8 NAME 1S ? 9 • MS. LAW: HER NAME IS POPPY DEMARCO, D-E-M-A-R-C-C 10 POPPY TENDS TO WRITE KIND OF FAST. 11 CHAIRMAN WALKER: AND SHE REPRESENTS THE -- 12 MS. LAW: THE SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING 13 GROUP. SHE IS THE E1R SUBCOMMITTEE PLANNING CHAIRMAN, AND 14 SHE HAS BROUGHT A LETTER FROM THE CHAIRMAN, JOHN BOST, FROM 15 THE SAN DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP, WHICH I WOULD LIKE 16 TO SUBMIT. I WOULD LIKE TO READ POPPY'S NOTES. 17 "THE SAN DIEGUITO PLANNING GROUP POSITION: WE 18 ARE SUBMITTING A WRITTEN COMMENT STATING SOME OF OUR REAL 19 CONCERNS ABOUT THE PROPOSED REFINERY. IN SUMMARY, WE ARE 20 CONCERNED ABOUT THE FOLLOWING THINGS: 21 "1. HAS NEED FOR THE REFINERY REALLY BEEN 22 ESTABLISHED? SEE THE UNITED STATES GEOGRAPHICAL SURVEY 23 PROJECTED NEED FOR OIL. 24 "2. HAVE ALTERNATIVES BEEN ADEQUATELY CONSIDERED, 25 INCLUDING A REFINERY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, OR REBUILDING OR ------- 1 35 1 ADAPTING CURRENTLY OPERATING REFINERIES TO USE LOW SULPHUR? 2 "3. WHAT WILL BE THE EFFECTS ON LOCAL AGRICULTURE 3 OR OF THE LOCAL AIR QUALITY LEVELS? 4 "4. WHAT WILL BE OTHER SECONDARY EFFECTS, SUCH 5 AS INCREASED TRAFFIC, WAYS OF BRINGING IN RAW MATERIAL, NEW 6 INDUSTRY INDUCED? 1 ' "5. EFFECT OF ODORS ON THE TOURIST INDUSTRY. 8 "6. EFFECT OF SPILLS, ACCIDENTS, FIRES, ET 9 CETERA." 10 THEY'RE ALL CONTAINED IN THIS LETTER WHICH I GIVE 11 TO YOU. 12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. AND WOULD YOU 13 1 DENT] FY YOURSELF. 14 MS. LAW: MY NAME IS CAROL LAW, AND I'M GOING 15 TO BE SPEAKING FOR MYSELF. I AM A MEMBER OF THE EIR 16 SUBCOMMITTEE. 17 (APPLAUSE) 18 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THE STATEMENT FROM THE SAN 19 DIEGUITO CITIZENS PLANNING GROUP WILL BE EXHIBIT NO. 31, 20 AND THE DRAFT OF THE STATEMENT, TWO PAGES, WHICH WE WILL 21 MAKE A PART OF THIS RECORD AS EXHIBIT 32. 22 OLIVE WOODRIDGE, ALPINE, CALIFORNIA. 23 MS. WOOLDR1DGE: IN ORDER TO HAVE THIS ENTERED 24 AS PART OF THE RECORD, DO 1 HAVE TO TURN IN MY WRITTEN 25 STATEMENT? ------- 136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN WALKER: IT'S BEING TRANSCRIBED BY THE REPORTER HERE. IF YOU WISH US TO HAVE A COPY, WE WOULD APPRECIATE IT BEING IN THE RECORD, IN ANY CASE. MS. WOOLDR1DGE: OKAY. THE ONLY PART THAT I WILL SUBMIT AS PART OF THE RECORD. SHOULD I IDENTIFY MYSELF FIRST? CHAIRMAN WALKER: YES, PLEASE DO. MS. WOOLDRIDGE: MY NAME IS OLIVE WOOLDRIDGE. 1 AM A LIFETIME RESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY. 38 YEARS OF THAT HAS BEEN IN. A SMALL COMMUNITY, UNINCORPORATED, IN EAST COUNTY, 30 MILES EAST OF SAN DIEGO. A COPY OF THE POSTER THAT ) WOULD LIKE TO SUBMIT TO EVIDENCE WAS PART OF THE MAYORAL I TY CAMPAIGN OF 1917 IN SAN DIEGO, AND IT SAYS, "WHICH DO YOU PREFER? GERANIUMS VERSUS SMOKESTACKS." THE SMOKESTACKS SAY "REAL PROSPERITY" AND APPARENTLY THE MAYOR WOULD LIKE THE CLIMATE TO STAY NICE. CHAIRMAN WALKER: WHO WON THAT CAMPAIGN? MS. WOOLDRIDGE: YOU HAVE TO READ THE ARTICLE. CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL MARK THIS. MS. WOOLDRIDGE:. IT'S AN AGE-OLD DEBATE, AND 1 DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE WILL BE ABLE TO SOLVE THIS. CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL MARK THIS EXHIBIT 33. MS. WOOLDR1DGE: BECAUSE OF THE RECENT OBJECTIONS TO TALKING ABOUT EMPLOYMENT VERSUS, YOU KNOW, JOBS VERSUS THE REFINERY, 1 MIGHT STRIKE MY FIRST PAGE OR I MIGHT BE ------- 1 2 5 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 137 PERMITTED A SHORT REBUTTAL. I AM A CONSTRUCTION WORKER'S WIFE. MY FAMILY HAS BEEN DEPENDENT ON THIS TYPE OF EMPLOYMENT FOR A LONG TIME. THE LEADERSHIP OF THE UNIONS IN BUILDING CONTRACTING TRADES MAY FEEL VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS. MY HUSBAND IS ONE. WE FULLY REALIZE THERE WILL BE LONG PERIODS OF UNEMPLOYMENT AS LONG AS WE REMAIN CONSTRUCTION-EMPLOYED. WE CANNOT, HOWEVER, SUPPORT THE CONCEPT THAT THE WORKING MAN COMES FIRST AT ALL COST. AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT WOULD SEEM THAT A GREAT DEAL OF CONSTRUCTION EMPLOYMENT MAY WELL BE GENERATED BY THE CLEANING UP OF OUR ENVIRONMENT, AND 1 QUESTION THAT THE MACAR10 REFINERY IS OF THAT NATURE. (APPLAUSE) I AM OPPOSED TO THE REFINERY IN SPITE OF ASSURANCES GIVEN BY PROPONENTS. I CANNOT HELP BUT FEEL THAT IT IS AT LEAST ONE MORE NAIL IN THE COFFIN. ALPINE, WHERE MY HOME IS, IS A SMALL COMMUNITY WHERE PEOPLE USED TO COME WHEN SUFFERING FROM LUNG DISEASES OFTEN AGGRAVATED, IF NOT CAUSED, BY CITY AIR AND CITY LIFE. OUR AIR IN THIS SMALL COMMUNITY IS THREATENED BY THE PROPOSED REFINERY BECAUSE OF THE PREVAILING WINDS WESTERLY THAT ARE PUSHING COASTAL POLLUTION FARTHER AND FARTHER EAST. ALPINE.IS PRESENTLY EXPERIENCING SMOGGY DAYS, SMOGGY DAYS WE DIDN'T USED TO HAVE. 1 SUPPORT THE COMMENTS MADE BY THE .CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE, LEUCAD1A TOWN COUNCIL, MR. SOMMERVILLE, ------- 138 1 MR. GRAY. AND SINCE I HAVE MADE THESE NOTES, MANY OTHERS. 2 I HAVE SUBMITTED SOME QUESTIONS, AND I HOPE I 3 CAN HEAR OR READ THE ANSWERS, AND HOPE THAT BOTH THE QUESTIONS 4 AND ANSWERS WILL BE MADE A PART OF THE RECORD. 5 I HEARD A PARTIAL ANSWER TO THE.EXPLOIT OF 6 ENERGY FROM THE SAN DIEGO GAS 5 ELECTRIC GENTLEMAN. 7 HOWEVER, IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SAN ONOFRE NUCLEAR 8 PLANT IS ONLY 20 PERCENT FOR SAN DIEGO COUNTY AS FAR AS 9 WHAT'S BEING -- WHAT ENERGY IS BEING GENERATED. THERE IS 10 ONLY GOING TO BE 20 PERCENT OF ITS ENERGY TO SAN DIEGO COUNTY. 11 THE REST WILL BE EXPORTED AND BELONGS PARTIALLY TO SOUTHERN 12 CALIFORNIA EDISON. 13 OH, I ALSO NOTICED THAT THE SAN DIEGO GAS 5 14 ELECTRIC MAN DIDN'T MENTION THE NUMBER OF SUNSHINY DAYS THAT 15 WE HAVE IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY AS A POSSIBLE ALTERNATIVE POWER 16 SOURCE, SOLAR POWER. 17 I THINK THAT'S ABOUT IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. 18 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. 19 (APPLAUSE) 20 CHAIRMAN WALKER: CHRIS CHRISTIE OF HIGHLAND 21 DRIVE, CARLSBAD, REPRESENTING HERSELF. 22 CHRISTIE? 23 E.. W. ANDERSON OF SKYLINE ROAD, CARLSBAD. 24 E. W. ANDERSON? 25 J. B. HASSAN, CARLSBAD BOULEVARD, CARLSBAD. ------- 139 i MR. HASSAN: GENTLEMEN, I'M JIM HASSAN FROM 2 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD. 3 MR. SWICKER, IN VIEW OF THE FACT THAT YOU DIDN'T 4 GET AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION REGARDING THE PROBABLE 5 NUMERICAL VALUE OF BREAKDOWNS IN NEW REFINERIES, I CAN GIVE 6 YOU A FAIRLY COMPLETE BREAKDOWN ON WHAT HAPPENED IN BENICIA 7 OVER A PERIOD OF YEARS. IF YOU WANT, 1 WILL BE GLAD TO SEND 8 IT TO YOU. 9 MR. SWICKER: PLEASE DO. 10 MR. HASSAN: MOST OF THE REST OF THE STUFF i 11 HAVE TO SAY HAS BEEN SAID, AND I'LL JUST GIVE YOU THE GUT 12 ISSUE HERE. 13 WE HAD A MAN MAKING A SPEECH TO ONE OF THE 14 CITY CLUBS HERE RECENTLY, A MAN BY THE NAME OF FRAZEE. AND 15 WHEN ASKED IF SMOG CAN DAMAGE THE FLOWERS, FRAZEE ANSWERED 16 THAT THE UNIVERSITY STUDY THEY HAD COOPERATED WITH HAD SHOWN 17 THAT FLOWERS HAD BEEN ADVERSLY AFFECTED BY THE INCREASING 18 LEVEL OF OIL POLLUTION IN CARLSBAD. NOW, THIS IS THE MAM 19 WHO IS IN THE FLOWER BUSINESS, THIS IS THE MAN WHO PLANTS 20 BULBS EVERY MONDAY MORNING, OR HAS HIS TEAM DO IT, AND THIS 21 IS A MAN WHO IS INTERESTED IN WHAT HAPPENS TO FLOWERS. 22 THEREFORE, WHEN HE SAYS THESE FLOWERS AREN'T REACHING THEIR 23 ' PEAK, HE'S PRETTY NEAR THE BALL. !N HIS SPARE TIME, THIS 24 MAN IS THE MAYOR OF CARLSBAD AS WELL. 25 NOW, THE SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS THAT'S COME UP IN ------- THIS MEETING HERE IS GOING TO BE RATIONED THROUGH THE COMPANY. I HEARD A MAN FROM THE GAS COMPANY AT THE COASTAL REGIONAL THING IN SAN DIEGO SAY THIS SYNTHETIC NATURAL GAS WAS GOING TO BE DISPATCHED THROUGHOUT THE STATE. I DON'T SAY THIS IS AN ACTUAL FACT, BUT IF 1 REMEMBER, THAT MAN'S NAME WAS NUGENT. SO, IT WILL BE APPORTIONED THROUGHOUT THE STATE. REGARDING THE AUTOMOBILES THAT SOMEBODY MENTIONED. NOW, I LIVE SIX-TENTHS OF A MILE FROM THIS EXISTING POWER PLANT UP HERE. I ONLY 'MENTI ON THIS BECAUSE THE SAME PEOPLE ARE RELATED TO BOTH OF THESE FIRMS, THE GAS COMPANY AND THIS PROPOSED REFINERY. MOW, THE DAY 1 DROVE MY CAR UP THERE TO PROTEST THE FALLOUT FROM THE TUBES BLOWING THE NIGHT BEFORE, I GOT AS FAR AS A MAN ON THE GATE, AND HE TOLD ME THAT SOMEBODY NAMED R!CHERT WOULD WRITE ME A LETTER OF APOLOGY, WHICH 1 NEEDED, OF COURSE. (LAUGHTER) AND I NEVER GOT IT. I NEVER GOT THAT LETTER. BUT THE MAN TWO HOUSES AWAY FROM ME WAS A LITTLE SMARTER AND PROTESTED TO THE HARTFORD INSURANCE COMPANY, AND THEY REPAINTED HIS CAR. THIS IS AIRBORNE STUFF I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT LANDS ON AUTOMOBILES. FROM FRAZEE'S FLOWERS, MY ROOFTOP, AND MY BACKYARD, INCLUDING MY SWIMMING POOL BACK THERE. I SPOKE TO A WOMAN AT A MEETING LAST NIGHT, AND SHE WAS PROTESTING FALLOUT IN HER SWIMMING POOL, AND SHE SAID SHE HAD PHONED TO PROTEST THIS THING AND THE MAN THERE HAS A ------- 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SENSE OF HUMOR OR SOMETHING, BUT HE TOLD THIS WOMAN THAT IT HAD TO BE ;COMING FROM THE OIL OFF THE BODIES OF HER GUESTS THAT::,SWIM IN THAT TANK. (LAUGHTER) TRUE. NOW, AT THE FIRST MEETING THAT THIS RE.'FINERY ISSUE EVER .CONVENED -- THIS WAS A MEETING BACK, I BELIEVE, IN NOVEMBER '73, WHEN NOBODY KNEW WHO THEY WERE WORKING FOR, NOBODY REALLY KNEW WHERE THIS THING WAS GOING TO BE, NOBODY REALLY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE THERE, AND TODAY IS THE FIRST SEMI, LET'S SAY, DEFINITE STATEMENT I HAVE HEARD WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE. I UNDERSTAND THEY'1 RE- NOT GOING TO MAKE GASOLINE. BUT AT THAT TIME I DIDN'T KNOW AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE WORKING FOR JAPATUL, MACARIO, OR SOME OTHER NAME. BUT THIS IS BEHIND THE THING. THEY DID SPEAK OF THAT PIPE THAT GOES SOUTH, WHICH WAS MENTIONED AT THAT THING, AND AT THAT TIME THEY TOLD ME AND THE ASSEMBLAGE, OF COURSE, THAT PIPE WAS AT 95 PERCENT OF CAPACITY. THERE HAS BEEN NO NEW PIPES BUILT OUT THERE. THEREFORE, ANY PRODUCTION THAT GOES OUT OF THIS THING EITHER HAS TO GO IN NEW PIPES OR OVER THE ROAD. HERE . WE COME BACK TO A REFERENCE THAT WAS MADE EARLIER THIS AFTERNOON TO THAT ANCHORAGE OUT THERE. I DON'T EXPECT THAT ANCHORAGE WILL BE LOADED WITH SUPERTANKERS BECAUSE THE SUPERTANKERS THAT ARE BUILT NOW ARE GOING RIGHT OUT AND GOING INTO-THE BONEYARD. THEY'RE NOT ECONOMICAL. DOWN HERE THREE YEARS AGO THEY TIED UP ONE IN ------- 142 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SAN DIEGO, BUT THE SEMI-SUPERTANKER, THE KIND THAT'S IN USE RIGHT NOW, WILL CONTINUE TO BE USED, I BELIEVE. BUT 1 BELIEVE UNLESS THEY NEED A SUPER BULK CARRIAGE OUT OF THE NORTH SLOPE, IN WHICH CASE I BELIEVE THAT ANCHORAGE OUT THERE WILL BE USED FOR OFFLOADING OIL TO VARIOUS PARTS OF THE STATE. NOW, WE DON'T HAVE ANY FALLOUT OUT THERE UP UNTIL NOW, BUT RIGHT NOW IS WHEN HISTORY STRIKES. I DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL, BUT I WANT TO SAY THIS ABOUT SPILLAGE: 1000 YARDS OFF THE CARLSBAD PUBLIC BEACH WE HAVE THAT ANCHORAGE. THE NEXT SHIP IN THERE WILL BE NUMBER 21 FOR THIS YEAR. THAT COMES OUT TO THREE TANKERS A MONTH. WHATEVER IT COMES OUT TO, THE NEXT ONE IS NUMBER 21. I'M NOT COUNTING THOSE BARGES THAT COME IN THERE; I'M TALKING ABOUT SEAGOING VESSELS. THOSE VESSELS ARE NINE HUNDRED AND SOMETHING LONG, 910, 1 BELIEVE, AND 105 WIDE, AND THEY HAVE A DRAFT UNDER THE WATER OF 47 FEET. THEY WERE THE LAST SHIPS THAT WERE BU1.LT FOR USE IN THE SUEZ CANAL PRIOR TO WHATEVER HAPPENED OVER THERE. AND FOR THE PANAMA CANAL. THESE BIGGER THINGS, THEY DON'T GO ANYWHERE. THEY HELP THEM AROUND. BUT ONASSIS INTERESTS FINALLY GOT PERMISSION UP IN MAINE, UP IN EASTPORT, I BELIEVE. THEY ASKED THE ONASSIS INTERESTS: "WHAT PART OF THE EXPENSES FOR A SPILL CLEANUP ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO ASSUME?" AND THERE'S BEEN A RECENT RASH OF EXPLETIVE DELETEDS IN THIS COUNTRY, BUT ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WHAT THAT GUY SAID IS "EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES, NOT ONE CENT MORE." THIS IS THE ONASSIS INTERESTS. HE'S GOING TO PAY WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES. 1 THINK WE OUGHT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT ANCHORAGE OUT THERE-. YOU GO TO THESE PEOPLE IN SAN DIEGO GAS, AND THEY'RE PERFECTLY AT LIBERTY SAYING, "MAN, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? THAT'S A STANDARD OIL TANKER OUT THERE. THAT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. GET OUT OF HERE. BRING YOUR COMPLAINT SOMEWHERE ELSE." AND THIS CAN HAPPEN. I DON'T KNOW WHO OWNS THAT THING OUT THERE. I HAVE ASKED OVER THE YEARS. NOBODY KNOWS. I HAVE ASKED WHO IS PAYING FOR IT, AND NOBODY KNOWS. AT LEAST NOBODY THAT TALKS TO ME. THAT'S ALL, FELLAS. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: FRED CLAYTON, PRUETT DRIVE, VISTA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING HIMSELF. FRED CLAYTON? MARGARET WILHELM. YOU LIVE ON HERMES STREET. WHAT CITY, AND WHO DO YOU REPRESENT? MS. WILHELM: I REPRESENT MYSELF, AND I LIVE AT 828 HERMES, LEUCADIA. I'M NOT A SPEAKER IN ANYTHING EXCEPT LIVING AND BREATHING. AND 1 COULDN'T READ AN AIR POLLUTION CHART IF IT HIT ME BETWEEN THE EYES, BUT THERE'S ONE THING I REALLY ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DO FEEL, GENTLEMEN. I REALLY FEEL THIS WHOLE MEETING IS AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY. AND I'M FAMILIAR WITH THESE KIND OF MEETINGS. IT'S LIKE PLAYING WHO DO YOU TRUST. I FEEL LIKE DAVID UP AGAINST GOLIATH WITH NO SLINGSHOT AND A VERY LITTLE ROCK. I'M IMPRESSED BY THE AWESOME GROUP OF OIL AND LABOR PEOPLE HERE AND THE BIG TOP GUNS OF THE SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC WHO ARE TELLING US WHAT'S GOOD FOR US. SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW? BIG BUSINESS AND BIG GOVERNMENT HAVE ALWAYS TOLD THE LITTLE GUYS WHAT'S GOOD FOR US. AND WHILE THEY'RE TELLING US WHAT'S GOOD FOR US, THEY GOT THEIR HANDS IN OUR POCKETS. (APPLAUSE) IT'S ALMOST, LIKE WE'RE OPERATING ON AN ORWELL1AN THEORY EXCEPT WE'RE NINE YEARS AHEAD OF OUR TIME. BIG BUSINESS OPERATES ON FEAR. THEY MAKE THE LITTLE GUYS AFRAID. I CAN ONLY URGE YOU GENTLEMEN ON THIS BOARD TO WAIT UNTIL THE SAN DIEGO GAS -- NOT SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC, FOR GODS SAKE. I CAN ONLY URGE YOU GENTLEMEN ON THIS BOARD TO WAIT UNTIL THE SAN DIEGO AIR CONTROL DISTRICT CAN COMPLETELY FINISH A HIGHLY DETAILED AIR POLLUTION ANALYSIS, AND THEN MAYBE WE CAN FIND OUT WHO WE CAN TRUST. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: CAROL LAW, GASCOMY ROAD, LEUCADIA. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. LAW: GOOD AFTERNOON, GENTLEMEN. MY NAME IS CAROL LAW, 1601 GASCONY ROAD, LEUCAD1A. WE HAVE ALL HEARD ABOUT THE GLOWING ACCOUNTS OF SDGSE AND PACIFIC RESOURCES, INCORPORATED, REGARDING THE BENEFITS TO US AND OUR AIR QUALITY IF THIS REFINERY WERE TO BE BUILT. WHAT WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD ARE THE COLD, HARD POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC FACTS, A FEW OF WHICH 1 WILL ENUMERATE AS FOLLOWS: 1. IN THE 1960'S, CONSIDERABLE GOVERNMENT HEADWAY WAS MADE IN CLEANING UP THE ENVIRONMENT AFTER A GREAT DEAL OF CLAMORING FROM CITIZENS. UNDER OUR LAST TWO PRESIDENTS, HOWEVER, WE HAVE SEEN A REVERSAL OF SOME OF THOSE EARLIER ACHIEVEMENTS. TO SAY THAT ANT I-POLLUTI ON LEGISLATION STILL ON THE BOOKS, ALBEIT WEAKENED, WILL EVEN BE ON THE BOOKS NEXT YEAR OR FIVE YEARS FROM NOW, GIVEN THE CAPR1C1OUSNESS OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM, IS SIMPLY NOT DEALING WITH THE REALITIES OF OUR WORLD. BIG BUSINESS, INCLUDING THE OIL INDUSTRY, ESPECIALLY THE OIL INDUSTRY, IS CHIPPING AWAY AT THE SYSTEM TO BRING US BACK TO A PRE 'GO'S ENVIRONMENTAL LEGISLATION. SUCH RELATIVELY LOW-LEVEL POLLUTANTS AS MIGHT BE LEGALLY EMITTED BY TODAY'S WEAKENED LAWS MIGHT INSTEAD BE LEGALLY HIGHLY POLLUTANT ALLOWABLE EMISSIONS BY THE TIME THIS REFINERY IS EVEN BUILT. THESE ARE THE POLITICS WE MUST LIVE WITH. ------- 146 1 2. LITTLE OF THE FUEL PRESENTLY MANUFACTURED 2 BY SDGSE AT ENC1NA IS USED IN THIS IMMEDIATE AREA, AS WAS 3 POINTED OUT IN THE TOUR THAT I TOOK RECENTLY THROUGH THAT 4 FACILITY. FREE-FLOWING FUEL TRANSFER IS COMMON. THAT THIS 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 REFINERY IS GOING TO HELP CLEAN UP SAN DIEGO'S AIR COULD BE PURE SPECULATION AND PROPAGANDIZING ON THE PART OF THE PROPONENTS. 3. THE PROPONENTS STATE THAT THERE ARE NUMEROUS FACTORS WHICH MAKE CARLSBAD SUCH AN ATTRACTIVE COMMUNITY FOR AN OIL REFINERY, ALL WELL KNOWN TO YOU. HOWEVER, THERE ARE A FEW FACTS THAT PROPONENTS HAVE NEGLECTED TO DEAL WITH. REFINERIES ARE NOT MAJESTIC EDIFICES STANDING ALONE AND REGAL AS SOME ROMAN PALACE. INSTEAD, THEY GO WITH OTHER FACTORIES. THEY LIKE OTHER OIL REFINERIES FOR COMPANY. IN OTHER AREAS HUNDREDS AND EVEN THOUSANDS OF ACRES OF HIGHLY POLLUTANT INDUSTRIAL PARKS SURROUND OIL REFINERIES. WE HAVE THE PROMISES OF SDG£E THAT THE ADJACENT 400 ACRES--I HAVE HEARD ALL KINDS OF NUMBERS--INDUSTR1AL PARK IS NO PROBLEM AT ALL. BASED ON HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, 1 CHOOSE TO LOOK ON SUCH PROMISES VERY SKEPTICALLY. MORALLY AND PRACTICALLY, THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY MUST CONSIDER THE ACCOMPANYING INDUSTRIAL PARK IN FUTURE LAND COMMITMENTS SUCH A REFINERY WILL BRING ABOUT IN ORDER TO ADEQUATELY PROTECT THE HEALTH AND WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE AND TO COMPLY WITH THE VERY INTENT OF THAT AGENCY'S EXISTENCE. \ ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 147 4. AS I MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY, CARLSBAD ALLEGEDLY IS AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE FOR ONE OIL REFINERY AND ACCOMPANYING INDUSTRIAL PARK. OR SO THE OIL LOBBY HAS CONVINCED SOME. SUPPOSING THAT THIS IS TRUE, THEN DOES IT NOT FOLLOW THAT NORTHERN SAN DIEGO COUNTY IS ALSO AN ATTRACTIVE PLACE TO BUILD TWO, FIVE, TEN, OR EVEN MORE OIL REFINERIES AND CONCOMITANT INDUSTRIAL PARKS? IN THIS NATION OF PLENTY AND MIMICRY, WE NEVER STOP AT ONE OF ANYTHING, EXCEPT MAYBE A GOOD POLITICIAN OR A GOOD LAW. GRANTED, THERE IS SOME SLIGHT PROBLEM GETTING REFINERIES BUILT TODAY. BY 1980, THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE, GIVEN THE STRENGTH AND POLITICAL PRESSURES OF OUR OIL LOBBYISTS. A BEAUTIFUL RECREATIONAL, RESIDENTIAL, AND AGRICULTURAL COASTAL AREA, AN AREA WITH VITAL RESOURCES TO BE PRESERVED IN PERPETUITY MAY BE OPENED UP TO HIGHLY INDUSTRIALIZED USE. ONE OIL REFINERY IS NOT THE ONLY ISSUE UNLESS THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY CHOOSES TO GO AGAINST THE INTENT OF ITS MANDATE. YOU MUST AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM DELAY A RECOMMENDATION ON THIS VITAL ISSUE, AS YOU HAVE BEEN REQUESTED TO DO BY THE SAN DIEGO AIR POLLUTION CONTROL DISTRICT. I WELL -REALIZE THE HASTE WITH WHICH THE PROPONENTS WOULD HAVE YOU ACT, AND THEIR MOTIVATIONS. I BELIEVE WE HAVE' HERE A CLASSIC CASE OF THE DOMINO THEORY OF OIL REFINERIE IF ONE REFINERY IS BUILT, THERE FOLLOWS THE CREATION OF LIKE ------- 148 FACILITY AFTER LIKE FACILITY, EACH MORE POLLUTING THAN THE OTHER, IF HISTORY CONTINUES ITS PRESENT COURSE, UNTIL NORTH SAN DIEGO COUNTY AIR IS TO THE NOXIOUS LEVELS THAT HAVE BEEN PREDICTED ARE POSSIBLE BY YOUR VERY OWN EXPERTS. BY YOUR YES RECOMMENDATION ON THIS REFINERY, A REAL BOOST TO ITS ULTIMATE PASSAGE, YOU COULD BE HELPING SAN DIEGO BECOME THE PRE-'40'S PITTSBURGH OF THE WEST, WHICH YOUR- SCIENT1STS BELIEVE IS POSSIBLE, GIVEN OUR PECULIAR TOPOGRAPHY. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE A COPY OF MRS. LAW'S REMARKS. THEY'RE IN TWO PAGES, AS EDITED, AND THEN THERE'S AN ATTACHMENT, INFORMATION RECEIVED FROM DR. BFRGER, MARINE BIOLOGIST, WHICH IS ADDITIONAL INFORMATION. THE THREE PAGES WE WILL MARK AS EXHIBIT 34. DUANA WANKET, CAUDOR STREET, LEUCADIA, REPRE- SENTING LEUCADIA ALLIANCE. MS. WANKET: YES, MY NAME IS DUANA WANKET, AND 1 LIVE AT 17^1 CAUDOR STREET IN LEUCADIA. I'M PRESIDENT OF THE LEUCADIA ALLIANCE. THAT IS A GROUP OF SEVERAL HUNDRED HOMEOWNERS IN LEUCADIA WHICH IS, OF COURSE, SITUATED DIRECTLY SOUTH OF CARLSBAD. OUR AREA IS CONSIDERED THE FLOWER CAPITAL OF THE WORLD AND, INDEED, AGRICULTURE AND FLOWER GROWING ARE 24 | A MULT 1-Ml LL1ON DOLLAR INDUSTRY THERE. THIS INDUSTRY, WHICH EMPLOYS HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE, IS SIMPLY NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE ------- 1 PROPOSED REFINERY AND THE ALLIED INDUSTRIES WHICH SEEM TO BE 2 INEVITABLE. IT SEEMS TO BE POOR ECONOMICS, TO SAY THE 3 LEAST, TO ENDANGER AN ALREADY ESTABLISHED PROFITABLE AND 4 BEAUTIFUL INDUSTRY BY INSTALLING THIS REFINERY IN UNS01LED 5 TERRITORY WHEN THE ABSOLUTE NEED FOR THE FACILITY IS NOT 6 ESTABLISHED. WHEN WE'RE GIVEN CONFLICTING REPORTS BY 7 AUTHORITIES AND ARE TOLD THAT THE BEST ESTIMATES ARE ONLY 8 CRYSTAL-BALL PREDICTIONS, WE CANNOT HELP BUT FEEL ANGERED 9 AND FRUSTRATED. 10 -THE ADDITIONAL DAMAGE TO OUR TOURIST INDUSTRY 11 WILL CERTAINLY OFFSET A GREAT DEAL OF ANY PROJECTED PROFIT. 12 AND WHEN, AS WE HAVE BEEN TOLD, THE REFINERY MAY BE PHASED 13 OUT WITHIN A. DECADE BECAUSE OF OIL AVAILABILITY, WHAT WILL 14 WE HAVE LEFT? CERTAINLY NOT THE BEAUTIFUL COAST WE 15 PRESENTLY HAVE, NOT THE RURAL ATMOSPHERE THAT LITERALLY 16 THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO PRESERVE. 17 WHY NOT INVEST SOME OF THOSE MILLIONS IN A 18 PERMANENT ESTABLISHMENT OF CLEAN SOLAR ENERGY. FOR INSTANCE, 19 A SEA SOLAR SOURCE, WHICH IS PRESENTLY AVAILABLE THROUGH 20 LOCKHEED. AND I HAVE READ A PIECE FROM THE PAPER WHICH 21 SAYS THAT THE GULF STREAM ALONE HAS THE POWER-GENERATING 22 CAPACITY FAR IN EXCESS OF ALL HUMANITIES' NEEDS THROUGH THE 23 YEAR 2000. I WON'T GO INTO ANY DETAIL ON THAT. BUT IT'S 24 CERTAINLY A POSSIBILITY IN THIS AREA. PARTICULARLY BECAUSE 25 OF THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF NATURAL SUNSHINE THA^ SAN DIEGO ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15,0 COUNTY GETS. 1 DON'T BELIEVE THIS ASPECT OF NEED HAS BEEN DEALT WITH SUFFICIENTLY IN THE REPORTS. MAY I SAY, TOO, THAT MY FAMILY IS IN CONSTRUCTION AND KNOWS FIRSTHAND WHAT PRESENT PROBLEMS THERE ARE IN THE INDUSTRY, BUT NONE OF US IS WILLING TO SELL BREATHING SPACE IN RETURN FOR A FEW SHORT-TERM WORKING DOLLARS. HISTORICALLY, LARGE CONSTRUCTION IS BROUGHT IN FROM OUTSIDE THE COUNTY. LOCAL FIRMS ALMOST NEVER GET LOCAL DOLLARS OF THIS MAGNITUDE. TO SUM IT UP, THE LEUCADIA ALLIANCE SEES NO BENEFIT AND MUCH IRREPARABLE HARM BY THE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS REFINERY. 1 THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 HAVE A CARD HERE FROM MR. MICHAEL MILLER OF CARLSBAD, WHO SAYS HE HAS A QUESTION. WE'LL PLACE THIS WITH THE OTHER QUESTIONS TO BE DEALT WITH DURING THE OFF-THE-RECORD COMMENT PERIOD, IF YOU WISH. CLARENCE H. DAWSON. TELL US WHERE YOU ARE FROM, MR. DAWSON. MR. DAWSON: CLARENCE H. DAWSON. 1 RESIDE ON RANCHO AGUA HEDIONDA Y LOS MONOS. I RESIDE JUST AT THE EASTERLY BOUNDARY, WHERE THE CREEK CROSSES THAT BOUNDARY. I HAVE BEEN FAMILIAR WITH THIS AREA FOR OVER 40 YEARS. I HAVE HAD SOME EXPERIENCE WITH THE POWER COMPANY. 1 KNOW THAT THEIR RECORD ON CONSERVATION IS POOR, THAT THEY ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 1 ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH CONSERVATION OF NATURAL RESOURCES OR THE ENVIRONMENT. IN OUR PARTICULAR RANCH THEY HAVE CAUSED EROSION, AND THEY'RE GENERALLY A NUISANCE TO US. (LAUGHTER) I HAVE OBSERVED THE ATMOSPHERE AROUND OIL REFINERIES ON THE SOUTH SHORE OF PUERTO RICO, AND ALSO OFF OF RICHMOND IN SAN FRANCISCO BAY. I ESTIMATE AT LEAST SEVEN MILES ALONG THE SHORE EACH WAY FROM THE REFINERY YOU CAN SMELL THE EFFECTS OF THE PRODUCTS FROM THE REFINERY. I'M SURE THAT WILL BE THE EXPERIENCE HERE IF THIS REFINERY IS BUILT. IT WILL CERTAINLY EXTEND DOWN BELOW LEUCADIA, AND POSSIBLY NOT AS FAR AS SAN CLEMENTE. BUT IT WILL EXTEND NOT ONLY NORTH BUT SOUTH ALONG THE SHORE. IT WILL EXTEND EASTWARD FOR A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE. AS 1 SAY, 1 HAVE LIVED IN THIS AREA AND KNOW IT FOR OVER 40 YEARS, AND I KNOW THAT THIS TIME OF YEAR, IN LATE SUMMER, IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO EXPERIENCE THE FUMES FROM OIL REFINERIES WHICH COME DOWN OVER THE OCEAN OFFSHORE FROM LONG BEACH AND REACH OFFSHORE BREEZES HERE AND COME IN AT LEAST AS FAR AS WHERE I LIVE, WHICH IS FOUR OR FIVE MILES INWARD. I EXPECT THAT ANY REFINERY BUILT IN THIS VICINITY WOULD DO THE SAME THING. ONE THING THAT 1 HAD NOT OBSERVED IN THE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS OF THE POWER COMPANY'S STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW FINE THIS THING WOULD BE, WOULD BE ANY CONCERN OR STATEMENT ABOUT THE EFFECT ON THE DOWNWIND AREAS. I KNOW ------- 152 1 THAT THE PREVAILING WINDS ARE GENERALLY FROM THE OCEAN, FROM 2 THE WEST TO THE EAST, AND 1 THINK THAT THE POWER COMPANY 3 SHOULD BE CONCERNED, AS THEY ARE NOT, ABOUT THE PEOPLE 4 LIVING AT LAKE SAN MARCOS AND AS -FAR AWAY AS ESCONDIDO. 5 THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING IN THE NEWSPAPERS THAT 1 HAVE READ-- 6 AND I READ THE DAILY OCEANSIDE PAPER EVERY DAY--ABOUT THE 7 POWER COMPANY HAVING ANY CONCERN WHATSOEVER ABOUT THE AREAS 8 1 JUST MENTIONED. I DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE ANY. 9 NOTHING HAS BEEN SAID PUBLICLY ABOUT THE EFFECT 10 ON THE FLORA AND FAUNA IN THIS AREA. MY WIFE TELLS ME SHE 11 HAS OBSERVED IN VARIOUS PLACES ON OUR RANCH SOME OF OUR OAK 12 TREES HAVE ALREADY BEEN AFFECTED AND TURNED BROWN BY THE 13 ATMOSPHERE, THE CHANGE OF ATMOSPHERE IN RECENT YEARS. I AM 14 CONCERNED ABOUT THE FLORA AND FAUNA BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF 15 OUR RANCH AND THE LAND WHICH WE GAVE TO THE UNIVERSITY OF 16 CALIFORNIA FOR AN ECOLOGICAL PRESERVE IN LOS MONOS CANYON. 17 1 DON'T BELIEVE THEY HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED. AT LEAST 1 DON'T 18 SEE ANY OF THEIR REPRESENTATIVES HERE AT THIS MEETING. THEY 19 ARE GREATLY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE EFFLUENT FROM AN OIL 20 REFINERY WOULD DO TO THE WILD ANIMAL LIFE AND THE FLOWERS 21 AND OTHER PLANTS GROWING IN LOS MONOS CANYON. 22 I'M TRYING TO WATCH TWO DIFFERENT NOTES AT THE 23 24 25 SAME TIME, AND I'M NOT MAKING THE BEST OF IT. CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU'RE DOING VERY WELL. MR. DAWSON: WELL, THANK YOU. ------- 153 1 I HAVE HEARD THIS MORNING SOME EXPRESS IONS -OF 2 THE LABOR UNION ATTITUDE. THEY'RE ALL FOR A REFINERY 3 REGARDLESS OF WHERE IT IS OR WHAT IT DOES BECAUSE IT WOULD 4 PRODUCE, THEY THINK AND SAY, MORE JOBS. WELL, WE'RE ALL FOR 5 MORE JOBS, PARTICULARLY AT A TIME WHEN THE CURRENT DEPRESSION 6 IS ON US, BUT I REMEMBER THAT THE LABOR INTERESTS CAME OUT 7 TO ONE MEETING I ATTENDED AT MY CHURCH AND SUPPORTED THE 8 VIET NAM WAR BECAUSE IT PRODUCED MORE JOBS, WHICH IT DID, 9 EXCEPT FOR THE 55,000 WHO DIED THERE. I'M ALL FOR LABOR 10 UNIONS. 1 WORKED FOR SCALE MYSELF AT ONE TIME, BUT I'M NOT 11 IN FAVOR OF BUILDING A REFINERY JUST TO PRODUCE JOBS WHICH 12 WILL ALTER THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH MOST OF US LIVE EXCEPT 13 SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO URGED US THIS MORNING. SO, I URGE 14 THIS BOARD TO GO EASY. DON'T MAKE ANY QUICK DECISIONS. GET 15 THE REACTION OF THE PEOPLE AT LAKE SAN MARCOS AND BUENA AND 16 SAN MARCOS AND ESCOND1DO. FIND OUT WHAT THEY THINK. DOUBLE 17 CHECK ANY INFORMATION THAT COMES FROM THE POWER COMPANY, AND 18 PARTICULARLY THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS. I HAVE HAD 19 SOME EXPERIENCE IN READING THESE RECENTLY, AND MY OBSERVATION 20 ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS HAS BEEN THAT THEY REFLECT 21 THE VIEWS OF THE SCHEMERS AND SOMETHING THEY WANT TO PROJECT. 22 THERE'S AN OLD SAYING: WHO PAYS THE PIPER CALLS THE TUNE. 23 AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WITH ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORTS. 24 WHEN THE POWER COMPANY PAYS FOR ONE, THE REPORT REFLECTS 25 THEIR VIEWS. SO, LOOK OUT. ------- 15*4 1 SO, I ASK THIS BOARD -- IN FACT, ANYONE CONCERNED 2 WITH THIS PROBLEM TO LOOK ASKANCE AT ANYTHING THAT IS 3 PRESENTED FROM THE POWER COMPANY OR FROM AGENTS THAT THEY 4 HIRE. I'M FRANK TO SAY THAT 1 BELIEVE THAT IF THIS ACTION, 5 IF THIS MATTER, WAS LEFT TO A VOTE OF THE PEOPLE AFFECTED, 6 NOT JUST THIS AREA RIGHT AROUND DOWNTOWN CARLSBAD, BUT THE 7 PEOPLE TO THE EAST AS FAR AS ESCONDIDO, I THINK IF THEY 8 WERE POLLED AND THERE WAS A VOTE, IT WOULD BE DEFEATED. SO, 9 I ASK YOU, LASTLY, AGAIN, GO EASY. 10 THANK YOU. I] (APPLAUSE) 12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE HAD STATED THAT WE WOULD 13 HAVE AN OFF-THE-RECORD SESSION IN ORDER TO ANSWER QUEST IONS. 14 I HAVE 11 CARDS LEFT, BUT IT LOOKS TO ME LIKE THIS WOULD BE 15 A GOOD HOUR TO TAKE AM OFF-THE-RECORD SESSION SO THAT IT 16 WILL NOT BE UNREASONABLY FORESHORTENED AND, THEREFORE, THE 17 REMAINING PEOPLE, WHO HAVE PUT CARDS IN WILL BE ASKED TO 18 COME BACK THIS EVENING. WE WILL BE HERE AT 7:30. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SO, WITH THAT, WE WILL NOW STAND AT RECESS UNTIL 7:30. ------- 155 1 SATURDAY EVENING SESSION 2 AUGUST 23, 1975, 7:30 P.M. g _ 4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL GO BACK ON THE RECORD. 5 THIS IS THE EVENING SESSION CALLED BY THE ENVIRONMENTAL 6 PROTECTION AGENCY. WE HAD A RATHER LONG OUTLINE OF WHAT 7 THE HEARING WAS ALL ABOUT THIS MORNING. I.TOOK QUITE A LITTLE 8 TIME TO DO THAT. UNLESS THERE IS SOME NEED TO REPEAT, WE 9 DON'T NEED TO DO THAT TONIGHT. THEY LOOK TO ME LIKE ALL 10 FAMILIAR FACES. 11 SOME LITTLE HOUSEKEEPING HERE. ONE OF THE 12 PEOPLE WHO HAD REGISTERED TO SPEAK STATED SHE WAS NOT ABLE 13 TO COME THIS EVENING, AND LEFT A DOCUMENT SHE WANTED PUT 14 INTO THE RECORD, SO I HAVE HERE A DOCUMENT CALLED "SIMULATION 15 IN THE SERVICE OF SOCIETY" THAT WAS SUBMITTED BY' IRIS SANKEY 16 OF THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY ENERGY ELEMENT. THIS WILL BE 17 EXHIB IT NO. 35. 18 , MR. REHBERG SPOKE THIS MORNING, AND I HAVE HERE 19 A COPY OF HIS REMARKS, WHICH WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 36. HE 20 HAD SOME CHARTS ON THE V1EWGRAPH. ONE OF THEM CALLED "MOST 21 LIKELY CASE, ALASKAN CRUDE SURPLUS IN WEST COAST DISTRICT 5." 22 THE NFXT IS A SHEET ENTITLED "DEMAND FOR REFINED PRODUCT AND 23 CAPACITY TO PROCESS IN DISTRICT 5." THE NEXT SHEET IS 24 25 LABELED "DISTRICT 5 PROJECTED LOW-SULPHUR RESIDUAL FUEL OIL DEMAND AND CAPACITY ADDITIONS UNDER CONSTRUCTION." ALL THREE ------- 156 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 SHEETS WILL BE MARKED EXHIBIT 37. WE HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FROM MRS. WENRICK OF COMMON CAUSE, AND SHE WANTS HER QUESTIONS READ INTO THE RECORD. 1 WILL DO THIS. THE FIRST QUESTION: "WHAT IS THE LONG-TERM EFFECT OF REFINERY EMISSION ON PERSONS WITH RESPIRATORY DISEASE AND THOSE ENGAGED IN VIGOROUS PHYSICAL ACTIVITIES (HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETICS, ET CETERA)?'1 "WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF THE POLLUTION ON PLANTS AND AGRICULTURE IN GENERAL?" THESE QUESTIONS WILL BE MADE A PART OF THE RECORD THERE WAS AN OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION OF SOME OF THE QUESTIONS EARLIER THIS AFTERNOON. THAT IS THE REASON WE RECESSED AT 4:30, WHICH 15 EARLIER THAN CUSTOMARY. I APOLO- GIZE TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INCONVENIENCED BY THE EARLY RECESS AND HAVE HAD TO COME BACK TONIGHT, BUT WE DID THINK ,T APPROPRIATE TO HAVE SOME OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAD SUBMITTED QUESTIONS. NOW, THE NEXT CARD 1 HAVE IS MR. JOEL PRESCOTT, WHO.IS HERE THIS EVENING. HE WAS HERE THIS MORNING BUT WAS UNABLE TO ADDRESS US. 22 ! MR. PRESCOTT: GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS JOEL 23 I PRESCOTT. I'M A REAL ESTATE BROKER. I'M A RESIDENT OF i 24 CARLSBAD, 5431 LOS ROBLES DRIVE. I'M IN THE TERRAMAR AREA, 25 WHICH IS JUST TO THE WEST OF WHERE THE REFINERY IS TO BE BU1L" ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I'M ALSO A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. 1 DON'T KNOW WHETHER I'M IN GOOD STANDING OR NOT, OR.WILL BE WHEN. I'M THROUGH SAYING WHAT I GOT TO SAY. I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF HAVING THE REFINERY BUILT. I HAVE MANY REASONS FOR FEELING THIS WAY. LISTING THE REASONS NOT NECESSARILY IN THE ORDER OF THEIR WEIGHT IN MY MIND, BUT AS THEY COME TO ME. I DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE ANY DETRIMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL EFFECTS OF THE REFINERY AT ALL. THE ECONOMIC CONSIDERATIONS OF HAVING THE REFINERY IN THE AREA 1 THINK FAR OUTWEIGH ANY POSSIBLE DETRIMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL SITUATION. THE JOBS THAT WILL BE CREATED NOT ONLY IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE REFINERY; BUT ONCE IT'S UP, THE PERMANENT JOBS 1 THINK WILL BE A BENEFIT. THE INCREASED TAX BASE AND THE INDUSTRY THAT WILL BE PULLED IN TO THE JAPATUL INDUSTRIAL PARK AND THE OTHER INDUSTRIAL PARKS IN THE AREA I THINK WILL BE OF IMMEASURABLE BENEFIT TO CARLSBAD AND THE NORTH COUNTY. 1 THINK THAT IF THE APPLICATION FOR THE REFINERY IS DENIED, IT WOULD BE ANOTHER OF MANY INFRINGEMENTS ON PERSONAL PROPERTY RIGHTS WHICH I THINK THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY GOING ON AS IT IS. 22 LASTLY, I AM A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. I HAVE i 23 ! OBSERVED THEM. I JOINED THEM PRIMARILY BECAUSE ] FELT THEY 24 25 WERE COMPLETELY OFF BASE, AND I WANTED TO WATCH WHAT THEY WERE DOING. IT'S MY OBSERVATION THAT THEY ARE GUIDED BY ------- 1 EMOTIONALISM RATHER THAN FACTS, AND THEY HAVE THE ATTITUDE, 2 "MY MIND IS MADE UP; DON'T CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS." 3 (APPLAUSE) 4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. PRESCOTT. 5 I HAVE A-CARD FOR A BARBARA TICE WILLIAMS AT 6 MIRA SAL, VISTA, CALIFORNIA, REPRESENTING HERSELF. 7 BARBARA TICE WILLIAMS? 8 LOU PRITTEN OF RIDGEMOOR DRIVE, CARSLBAD. 9 LOU PRITTEN? 10 THOSE WHOSE NAMES I PASSED OVER WILL BE CALLED 11 AGAIN. 12 MR. PRITTEN? 13 MR. PRITTEN: GOOD EVENING. MY NAME IS LOU 14 PRITTEN. I LIVE AT 330 CHINQUAPIN IN CARLSBAD. 15 1 WOULD LIKE TO STATE THE REASON I HAVE BEEN 16 FIGHTING POLLUTION HERE IN CARLSBAD. I HAVE LIVED IN 17 CALIFORNIA ALL MY LIFE. 1 CAN WELL REMEMBER WHEN THERE 18 WASN'T SUCH A THING THEY CALLED SMOG OR AIR POLLUTION. IN 19 1950 I MOVED INTO LOS ANGELES, AND I WATCHED THE AIR 20 POLLUTION GET WORSE EACH DAY. MY CHILDREN GOT SO THEY 21 COULDN'T GO OUT ON THE PLAYGROUND DURING THE SMOG ATTACK. 22 IT'S SO BAD NOW I CAN'T RIDE MY BICYCLE TO WORK, WHICH 1 23 THOUGHT WAS GOOD FOR THE ECOLOGY. BUT THE SMOG IS SO HEAVY, 24 YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO EXERT YOURSELF. STAY INDOORS AND 25 NOT BREATHE. ------- 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 ANYHOW, I HAD A SERIOUS ILLNESS IN THE FAMILY, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE CAUSED BY POLLUTION. THERE IS SOME INDICATION THERE IS. AND WITH MY WIFE'S BRONCHITIS NOT CLEARING UP AND MY CHILDREN NOT BEING ALLOWED TO PLAY ON THE PLAYGROUND, I MOVED TO CARLSBAD. I SHOULD SAY THEY MOVED TO CARLSBAD. I STILL COMMUTE TO LOS ANGELES. BUT I WOULD RATHER HAVE MY FAMILY HERE AT LEAST WITH AN ENVIRONMENT THAT 1 HAD WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THAT IS SOMEWHAT HEALTHY THAN LIVING IN LOS ANGELES AND BE SUBJECT TO ALL THE POLLU- TION THAT GOES ON DAILY THERE. 1 WILL SAY I AM A LITTLE WORRIED ABOUT THIS MEETING TODAY. IN FACT, I AM DEEPLY WORRIED ABOUT IT BECAUSE YOU HAVE COME OUT WITH A TENTATIVE APPROVAL. NOW, READING THIS DOCUMENT HERE, I JUST CAN'T FATHOM HOW YOU CAN GET AN APPROVAL OUT OF THIS DOCUMENT HERE. YOU HAVE AIR POLLUTION INCREASING -- WHAT IS IT? 26,000 POUNDS A DAY FROM THE REFINERY AND YET'S IT'S SUPPOSED TO HAVE A REDUCED EMISSIONS IN THE BASIN. ACTUALLY, IT WON'T BE REDUCED EMISSIONS IN THE BASIN. YOU'RE HOPING TO BREAK EVEN IF THE WORST POSSIBLE SCENARIO HAPPENS. NOW, EVEN SUCH A RIGHT-WING MAGAZINE AS READERS' DIGEST CAME OUT LAST WEEK AND REPORTED THEY HAD GRAVE DOUBTS 23 'ABOUT THE NATURAL GAS SUPPLY IN THIS COUNTRY. THEY CITED 24 25 REPORTS WHERE THE NATURAL GAS RESERVES WERE UNDERESTIMATED BY A THOUSAND PERCENT. NOW, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, THERE HAS BEEN ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 160 NO CLEAR-CUT ANALYSIS OF THE NATURAL GAS RESERVES IN THIS COUNTRY. YET, THIS IFFY SCENARIO SAYS WE WON'T HAVE ANY NATURAL GAS SO, CONSEQUENTLY, WE WILL MAKE NATURAL GAS AT MACARIO AND THAT WILL REDUCE POLLUTION. MAYBE. BUT IF YOU WANT TO BE IFFY ABOUT IT, YOU CAN HAVE ALL KINDS OF IFFYS. YOU CAN HAVE AN IFFY: IF THAT LARGE TANKER HITS THE JETTY OUT HERE AT ENCINA AND CATCHES . FIRE, THIS IS GOING TO CAUSE A LOT OF POLLUTION. YOU CAN HAVE AN IFFY: IF AN AIRPLANE HITS ONE OF THEM SYNTHETIC GAS TANKS OUT AT THE REFINERY, YOU'D HAVE AN AWFUL LOT OF POLLUTION. YOU'D PROBABLY LOSE RANCHO CARLSBAD. I MEAN, IFFYS CAN GO ALL THE WAY ALONG THE LINE. WE CAN IFFY ALL NIGHT, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BASIS TO DECLARE THAT THIS PASSES THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY. NOW, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE TESTIFY HERE TODAY, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT STUCK THEIR NECK OUT BY TESTIFYING. 1 WANT TO COMMEND MR. SOMMERVILLE FOR THE TESTIMONY HE MADE. IT'S REFRESHING TO HEAR A PUBLIC EMPLOYEE STICKING HIS NECK OUT. I JUST HOPE THIS AGENCY WILL'BUCK THE PRESSURES. AND I KNOW THERE ARE MANY PRESSURES. WE HAVE HAD STANDARD OIL OF CALIFORNIA LOBBYING IN CARLSBAD, WE HAVE HAD ALL KINDS OF OUTSIDE PRESSURES. THIS ISN'T JUST A LITTLE REFINERY FOR THE CITY OF CARLSBAD. THE WHOLE COUNTRY IS INTERESTED TO SEE IT BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS A REFINERY, AND THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THIS GOES IN, BUCK THE TREND WHERE ------- 161 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 REFINERIES HAVE BEEN TURNED DOWN IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. I DON'T KNOW. THIS REPORT HERE, THE BASIS OF THE APPROVAL ON THIS REPORT, SEEMED TO ME A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT WHO COULDN'T SEE THROUGH THIS SHOULDN'T GRADUATE. I WANT TO SAY ONE OTHER THING HERE ABOUT SAN DIEGO GAS B ELECTRIC. MR. LAFFOON MADE A CRITICISM THAT THEY HAVE BEEN PICKED ON AND THEY HAVE BEEN MISREPRESENTED AND EVERYBODY IS PICKING ON THEM. AND THEN HE MAKES THREE MISSTATEMENTS IN HIS TESTIMONY. ONE, THAT SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC IS A BENEVOLENT ORGANIZATION, SOCIAL-MINDED AND SO FORTH. MY CONTENTION IS SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC IS IN BUSINESS TO MAKE A PROFIT FIRST, AND SOCIAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. THEY ARE IN BUSINESS TO MAKE A PROFIT. SECONDLY, HE STATED THERE ARE NO OTHER ENERGY SOURCES IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY. IF THAT WAS TRUE, WE WOULD ALL BE DEAD, OBVIOUSLY. WE HAVE THE SUN, WE HAVE THE WIND, WE HAVE INNUMERABLE OTHER ENERGY SOURCES BESIDES OIL. WE TALK ABOUT OIL. THERE IS A BIG LIE GOING ON IN THIS WHOLE THING, AND IT'S A HUGE LIE, AND WE HEAR IT OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN: "WE ARE GOING TO MAKE A CLEAN FUEL. WE ARE GOING TO MAKE LOW-SULPHUR OIL. THAT'S GOING TO BE A CLEAN FUEL." THAT IS MOT A CLEAN FUEL. THAT IS A 23 ! FILTHY, DIRTY FUEL. LOW-SULPHUR OIL IS A DIRTY FUEL. YOU 24 25 REMOVED ONE OF THE INGREDIENTS. YOU REMOVED THE SULPHUR. BUT IT'S A FILTHY FUEL. NOW, TO SAY THIS IS A CLEAN FUEL IS ------- 162 SAME OILY POLLUTION. 2 1 WENT TO THE PUBLIC HEARING WHEN SDGSE WAS 3 REQUESTING PERMISSION FOR THE FOURTH UNIT AT THEIR ENCINA PLANT, AND I WAS THE ONLY ONE PROTESTING POLLUTION AT THAT. 5 POINT. THIS WAS A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO. SO, THE FIGHT THAT 6 MY HUSBAND AND I HAVE BEEN PUTTING UP AGAINST POLLUTION IN THIS AREA GOES BACK A NUMBER OF YEARS. 8 UNDER OATH I GAVE EVIDENCE OF THIS POLLUTION 9 AND BROUGHT SAMPLES OF IT ON PAPER TOWELING THAT I HAD TO 10 USE TWICE A DAY TO GET THE GUCK OUT SO IT WOULDN'T GO BACK 11 INTO THE FILTER SYSTEM. ALTHOUGH THE CHAIRMAN OF THE PUBLIC 12 UTILITIES COMMISSION THAT WAS HAVING THE PUBLIC HEARING 13 ORDERED AN INVESTIGATION, AS FAR AS I KNOW, NOTHING WAS DONE. 14 AND WE DON'T KNOW TO THIS DAY WHERE THAT POLLUTION COMES FROM. 15 A SWIMMING POOL IS NOT IMPORTANT EXCEPT AS IT ] 16 DRAMATICALLY REVEALS THE OVERALL POLLUTION. A POOL CAN BE 17 CLEANED, AND I HOPE THERE IS NO BUILDUP IN THE PIPES WHICH 18 WOULD BE VERY SERIOUS AND VERY COSTLY TO ALL POOL OWNERS. 19 PEOPLE CAN WASH THEIR HAIR AND THEIR CLOTHES AND, AS A 20 NEIGHBOR SAID, YOU CAN WASH YOUR HOUSE WITH A DETERGENT 21 BEFORE REPAINTING, WHICH HE SAID HE HAD TO DO TO GET OFF AN 22 OIL SCUM. HOWEVER, STUDIES HAVE ALREADY SHOWN THAT THE 23 POLLUTION HAS.DAMAGED THE FLOWERS IN THIS AREA, ACCORDING 24 TO MAYOR FRAZEE, IN A RECENT SPEECH QUOTED IN THE BLADE 25 TRIBUNE. AND WHAT ONE BREATHES, AS FAR AS I KNOW, IS STILL ------- 163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 UNKNOWN AND I SUPPOSE COULD BE VERY SERIOUS IN TIME. PEOPLE MUST TRUST SOMEONE TO HELP THEM, AND THAT IS WHY I'M HERE TONIGHT. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MRS. BROWNLEY. WILL YOU LEAVE A COPY OF YOUR REMARKS FOR OUR RECORD? MRS. BROWNLEY: YES. THEY'RE ONLY IN PENCIL, BUT THERE THEY ARE. CHAIRMAN WALKER: A COPY OF MRS. BROWNLEY's REMARKS WILL, FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS HEARING, BE MARKED EXHIBIT 38. GENE JACKSON? MR. JACKSON: MY NAME is GENE JACKSON, i LIVE AT 1120 CHINQUAPIN IN CARLSBAD, AND I AM GOING TO SPEAK AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN. MR. LAFFOON AND MR. BEAN RAISED SEVERAL POINTS 18 ' IN THEIR PRESENTATION TODAY WHICH REQUIRE COMMENT. REFERENCE 19 20 21 22 BY MR. BEAN TO CARLSBAD AS A UNIQUE TANKER PORT. ALSO, REFERRED EUPHEMISTICALLY BY MR. LAFFOON AS AN OFFLOADING TERMINAL. THE FACILITY WAS FIRST INDEED AN OFFLOADING FACILITY, BUT IN THE RECENT PAST IT HAS BECOME AN OIL PORT 23 ! FOR ALL OF SAN DIEGO COUNTY, CONTRIBUTING TO AIR POLLUTION 24 25 THROUGH BARGE VENTING, REFERRED TO BY MR. GRAY IN HIS PRESENTATION IN THE AFTERNOON HEARING. AND HOW THIS CONDITION ------- 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 AROSE IS INTERESTING AND, I BELIEVE, RELEVANT TO THIS HEARING. WHEN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD PASSED THE ORDINANCE APPROVING CONSTRUCTION OF ENCINA 5, THERE WERE TWO RELATIVELY SMALL FUEL TANKS INCLUDED IN THE PROJECT. THE TANKS GRANDFATHERED OUT OF THE ENCINA PROJECT FROM THE COASTAL COMMISSION AS ONE 450,000-BARREL STORAGE TANK AND HIGH-SPEED PUMP STATION. THIS, WHEN COMPLETED, WILL PERMIT OFFLOADING STORAGE AND FILLING OF STORAGE TANKS FOR TRANSMISSION OF FUEL TO THE SOUTH BAY GENERATING FACILITY. THIS IS BECOMING NECESSARY BECAUSE TANKERS OF THE SIZE PRESENTLY BEING USED, AS INDICATED BY MR. BEAN TODAY, ARE TOO LARGE TO BE ACCOMMODATED BY THE 24TH STREET LANDING IN S'AN DIEGO HARBOR. THE TANK APPROVED AND UNDER CONSTRUCTION BY SDGCF WILL BE A MAJOR AIR-POLLUTING SOURCE ITSELF. THE BARGE VENTING REFERRED TO BY MR. GRAY, NOT READY AT THE PRESENT TIME, PERHAPS WILL INCREASE DRAMATICALLY AS SOUTH BAY BECOMES INCREASINGLY DEPENDENT ON THE INCREASING BARGE TRAFFIC FOR ITS FUELING. 1 CALL TO THE AGENCY'S ATTENTION THAT NONE OF THIS WAS PART OF THE PACKAGE THAT WENT WITH ENCINA IN THE FIRST PLACE. IT GREW. WE FOUND OUT ABOUT IT AFTER THE FACT, WHEN ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT ENCINA 5. MR. BEAN ALSO REFERRED TO THE HAPPY COINCIDENCE' THAT VARIOUS PIPELINES INTERSECT AT THE REFINERY SITE. ALL THOSE PIPELINES JUST KIND OF ACCIDENTLY JOINED THERE. ISN'T THAT A GREAT PLACE TO PUT THE REFINERY?. MR. BEAN WAS IN ERROR ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 165 WHEN HE REFERRED TO THE EXISTING 30-INCH GAS MAIN. PART OF THE EXISTING LINE IS MUCH SMALLER. SIX INCHES IS THE SIZE THAT I HEARD. CARLSBAD ONLY BECAME AWARE OF THE QUESTION WHEN THE POTTER CONSTRUCTION COMPANY SUDDENLY BEGAN RUNNING PIPE IN THE LAST MONTH AT THE RATE REPORTED IN THE NEWSPAPER AS A THOUSAND FEET A DAY, WHERE THE LINES TERMINATE, COINCT- DENTALLY, AT THE REFINERY SITE. THE ISSUE THAT I SEE HERE IS THAT WE ARE BEING PRESENTED WITH A SATELLITE FACILITY FOR THE REFINERY FOR ANY AGENCY APPROVAL THAT HAS GONE WITH IT. MR. LAFFOON SPOKE IN PASSING ABOUT PLANS FOR AM LNG FACILITY, WHICH IS NOT PRESENTLY BEING DEVELOPED. THINK OF THE COMBINED IMPACT OF THE TANKER PORT, LNG STORAGE FACILITY, PIPELINE CONSTRUC- TION, TANK FARM FOR THE REFINERY FOR OIL STORAGE TO BE BURNED AT ENC1NA AND, OF COURSE, NOT NECESSARILY TO BE BURNED IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY AT ALL IF THE STATE OR FEDERAL AGENCIES DECIDE OTHERWISE. THEN WE BEGIN TO SEE THE REALITY OF WHAT MR. LAFFOON UNDERSTOOD WAS TO BE A FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY, NOT JUST A REFINERY. TRANSPORTATION BY SHIP OF LNG, NATURALLY SOMETHING THAT'S NO LONGER BEING CONTEMPLATED. EVERYTHING IS ALWAYS 23 ISOLATED. TRANSPORTATION BY SHIP OF LNG, IF IT DOES BECOME 24 25 A REALITY, OFFERS THE POSSIBILITY FOR THE ULTIMATE IN AIR POLLUTION. THE EXPLOSIVE FORCE COULD DESTROY MUCH OF THE CITY ------- 166 1 I OF CARLSBAD. BUT WE CAN BE REASSURED THAT MR. LAFFOON SAID 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II 12 13 14 15 16 17 IT ISN'T AT THE MOMENT AN ACTIVE PART OF THE PLAN FOR THE FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY. THEN, OF COURSE, WE REMAIN WITH THE QUESTION OF THE INDUSTRIAL PARK. MR. BEAN INDICATED THAT NAPTHA IS THE SECOND PRODUCT OF THE REFINERY, THAT IN A FREE ECONOMY NOTHING WAS SURE UNTIL IT WAS UNDER CONTRACT, AND THAT NAPTHA IS THE BASIS FOR THE PETROCHEMICAL INDUSTRY. MR. LAFFOON, WHO IS VICE-PRESIDENT OF SAN DIEGO GAS AND -ELECTRIC, SPOKE OF THE COMPANY WANTING THIS SOPHIS- TICATED, PRESUMABLY RELATIVELY CLEAN INDUSTRIAL PARK, BUT HE INDICATED QUITE CLEARLY THAT ULTIMATELY THE CITY OF CARLSBAD WOULD DECIDE THROUGH SUCH PROCESSES AS ZONING WHAT HAPPENS TO THE INDUSTRIAL PARK EVEN THOUGH THE JAPATUL COMPANY, WHICH OWNS THE LAND, IS A WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC. WE HAVE HEARD MUCH OF THE SYNERGISTIC EFFECT OF 18 THESE VARIOUS QUESTIONS TODAY. IT'S A GREAT TERM. BUCKMASTER 19 FULLER DID US A LOT OF REAL SERVICE IN DEVELOPING THIS 20 CONCEPT. I'M NOT SURE WE ALL USE IT WITH FULL AWARENESS OF 21 EVERYTHING THAT GOES WITH IT. 22 THE QUESTION OF CREDIBILITY WAS ALSO RAISED 23 ! TODAY. I WOULD SUBMIT THAT FOR MANY OF US IN CARLSBAD THERE 24 1 1S A SYNERGISTIC EFFECT ALSO RELATIVE TO CREDIBILITY. WE 25 DON'T BELIEVE 1*4 TONS OF ADDITIONAL POLLUTANTS A DAY MEANS ------- 167 LESS POLLUTION. WE HAVE BEEN MISLEAD TOO MANY TIMES BY 2 PACIFIC RESOURCES AND SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC. IT'S MY 3 PERSONAL CONV1CTI ON THAT SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC IS ARRO- GANTLY GOING FORWARD WITH ITS COMPLETE PLANS IN THE CARLSBAD 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I 22 23 24 25 FUEL-PROCESSING FACILITY WITHOUT ANY FORMAL APPROVAL AND SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC WILL SUBSEQUENTLY FALL BACK ON THE ARGUMENT, AS THEY DID WITH ENCINA 5, THAT THEY HAVE ALREADY INVESTED TOO MUCH MONEY, THAT TOO MUCH IS AT STAKE, TOO MANY JOBS WILL BE LOST IF AT SOME LATER DATE THEY ARE DENIED THE REQUEST THAT THEY MAKE. THE SUM OF MONEY INDICATED IN RELATION TO ENCINA 5 WAS $30 MILLION. ANOTHER REASON I SPOKE TO THE AGENCY -- IT SEEMS RATHER FRIVOLOUS, FRANKLY, IN RELATION TO WHAT 1 HAVE BEEN JUST TALKING ABOUT. I'M A BICYCLE COMMUTER. IN THE PAST TEN YEARS I HAVE RIDDEN MY BICYCLE APPROXIMATELY 50,000 MILES COMMUTING TO WORK. I HAVE RIDDEN DAILY PAST THE REFINERY SITE, SUMMER, WINTER, AND PARTICULARLY IN THE FALL WHEN THE SANTA ANA CONDITIONS TEND TO PREVAIL. WHEN THE REFINERY ISSUE FIRST CAME UP, THEY HAD THEIR LITTLE PICKUP OUT THERE DOING THEIR METEOROLOGICAL SURVEY. I RODE EACH MORNING SOMEWHAT AMUSED AS THE ANEMOMETER RATHER LATHARGICALLY TURNED BECAUSE IN THE MORNING THERE IS PRACTICALLY NO AIR CURRENT THERE AT THE SITE. THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN CONVINCE ME THAT 14 TONS A DAY OF POLLUTANTS AT THAT POINT WILL NOT RESULT IN ------- 168 SIGNIFICANT DETERIORATION OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS. 2 FOR THE TOMATOE FIELDS, THE OTHER AGRICULTURAL AREAS, FOR 3 THE FIELD WORKERS IN THAT AREA, THAT HAS TO BE AN EXTRA- 4 ORDINARILY IMPORTANT ISSUE. THE AIR AT THAT POINT IS NOT 5 IN CONSTANT MOTION. 6 THAT LEADS ME TO ANOTHER POINT. AS I RODE BY 7 THERE EVERY MORNING, I SAID, "GEE, I WONDER WHERE THEY'RE 8 GOING TO PUT THAT DAMN THING. THEY SAID IT'S GOING TO BE 9 DOWN IN THE CANYON A LITTLE WAYS." AND THE FIRST PRESENTATION 10 BY PACIFIC RESOURCES SHOWED US WHERE IT WAS GOING TO BE, M AND IT WAS CLEARLY IN SITE OF EL CAMINO REAL, BUT THEY 12 CHANGED THEIR MIND AND THEY PUSHED IT BACK DOWN THE CANYON. 13 1 WOULD ASK THE QUESTION AS IT RELATES TO AIR POLLUTION 14 WHETHER OR NOT THAT MEASURE, WHICH I FEEL WAS DONE PRIMARILY 15 FOR PUBLIC RELATIONS BENEFIT, IF YOU PUSH IT DOWN THE CANYON 16 AND PUT A BUSH IN FRONT OF IT YOU CAN DENY l'T • EX I STS . 17 WE HAVE HEARD MUCH OF SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS TODAY. 18 1 HOPE THAT EPA DOES ITS OWN STUDY OF THESE .ENORMOUS, COMPLEX I 19 ISSUES AND ARRIVES AT THE BEST POSSIBLE FINDING. IN OTHER 20 WORDS, A FINDING BASED ON THE.SMALLEST PREDICTABLE ERROR 21 POSSIBLE. 22 WE HAVE ALSO HAD RAISED THESE OTHER ISSUES OF 23 CREDIBILITY. MR. SOMMERVILLE RAISED SERIOUS DOUBTS ABOUT I 24 THE COMPREHENSIVENESS OF THE AGENCY STUDY. IF THERE IS ANY 25 VALIDITY TO HIS QUESTIONS, I WOULD URGE YOU TO TAKE THE ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 I 169 NECESSARY STEPS TO COMPLETE YOUR OWN STUDIES. ADDITIONALLY, I WOULD ASK YOU TO CONSIDER THE IMPACT A FEDERAL RULING HAS ON THIS CASE WHICH MEANS SO INTENSELY -- THAT IS SO TERRIBLY IMPORTANT TO THE CITIZENS OF THIS COMMUNITY. YOUR TENTATIVE APPROVAL, FRANKLY, READ LIKE A PRESS RELEASE FOR SAN DIEGO GAS 6 ELECTRIC, AND WAS SO INTERPRETED IN THE LOCAL PAPERS. I HOPE THAT THIS AGENCY HAS MUCH MORE SUBSTANTIAL DATA BEFORE REACHING A FINAL DECISION. (APPLAUSE) MAY I SUBMIT THIS BY MAIL? CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU CERTAINLY MAY. OLIVFR CARLSON, ADAM STREET, CARLSBAD. OLIVER CARLSON? GENE YOUNG, WEST LINCOLN, ESCONDIDO. ROSE HASSAN. MS. HASSAN: MY NAME is ROSE HASSAN." i LIVE AT 18 5262 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD IN CARLSBAD. I'M A HOUSEWIFE, BUT 19 MOSTLY I'M A SENIOR CITIZEN. 20 NOW, 1 WOULD JUST LIKE TO TELL MY SIDE OF THE 21 STORY WITHOUT STATISTICS OR ANYTHING ELSE. BUT, I LIVE IN 22 CARLSBAD. I HAVE BEEN HERE FOR FIVE YEARS. AND IN THAT I 23 | LENGTH OF TIME THE NUMBER OF HOUSES HAVE DOUBLED AND THE 24 (NUMBER OF CARS THAT PASS IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE HAVE DOUBLED. 25 I HAVE 101 IN FRONT OF ME. I HAVE 5 IN BACK OF ME'. AND WHEN ------- 170 1 I i GET UP IN THE MORNING AND OPEN MY DOOR, 1 CLOSE IT VERY 2 QUICKLY BECAUSE THE SMOG HAS SETTLED, A SMELLY AIR, RIGHT 3 OUTSIDE MY DOOR. AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK OF AIR POLLUTION. 4 THANK YOU. 5 (APPLAUSE) 6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: IRIS SANKEY EARLIER SAID SHE 7 PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE HERE, BUT I PROMISED TO CALL THE NAME 8 AGAIN. IRIS SANKEY? 9 MARK NELSON. 10 WILL YOU STATE YOUR ADDRESS AND YOUR AFFILIATION. 11 MR. NELSON: MY NAME IS MARK NELSON. I LIVE 12 AT 3331 MARGARET WAY IN CARLSBAD. 1 AM PRESIDENT OF CARLSBAD 13 COMMUNITY CAUSE. 14 1 WANTED TO READ INTO THE RECORD A OUOTATION 15 FROM A SUMMARY BY THE CALIFORNIA COASTAL ZONE CONSERVATION 16 COMMISSION RELATIVE TO AIR POLLUTION IN THE CARLSBAD AREA 17 AND SAN DIEGO COUNTY. THIS IS ON PAGE 2 OF THEIR APPEAL 18 SUMMARY OF THE ENC1NA 5 DENIAL. IT SAYS: 19 "THE SAN DIEGO AIR BASIN HAS BEEN DESIGNATED 20 AS A CRITICAL AIR AREA. IT HAS THE POTENTIAL FOR MORE SEVERE 21 AIR POLLUTION PROBLEMS THAN THE SOUTH COAST AIR BASIN BECAUSE 22 | OF METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS. THE PRODUCTIVE NORTH COUNTY i 23 | AGRICULTURAL AREAS AROUND CARLSBAD ARE PARTICULARLY SUSCEPTIBL ! 24 ! TO INCREASES IN AIR POLLUTION." 25 I WILL MAKE A COPY OF THIS AND FORWARD IT. ------- 171 1 CHAIRMAN WALKER: FOR OUR PRESENT PURPOSES, 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 JO 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 TAKE IT YOU DON'T WANT TO LEAVE IT NOW? MR. NELSON: IT'S THE ONLY ONE i GOT. i FIGURE I WILL PROBABLY BE USING IT AGAIN. CHAIRMAN WALKER: LET'S SEE IF WE CAN GET IT FULLY IDENTIFIED FOR THE RECORD. THIS IS ON THE LETTERHEAD OF CALIFORNIA COASTAL ZONE CONSERVATION COMMISSION, 15^0 MARKET STREET, SAN FRANCISCO. THE DOCUMENT IS ENTITLED "APPEAL SUMMARY." .IT IS APPEAL NO. 78-75SDGSE, ENCINA 5, AND THE QUOTATION WAS FROM PAGE 2 UNDER "STAFF NOTES," PARAGRAPH 2, THE SECOND PARAGRAPH. AND YOU WILL FURNISH US WITH A COPY? MR. NELSON: I ALSO HAVE ANOTHER STATEMENT. THIS IS.FROM THE COMPREHENSIVE PLANNING ORGANIZATION OF SAN DIEGO ! I COUNTY REGION, PHASE ONE, POPULATION GROWTH, POLICY STUDY, FINAL REPORT, PAGE 37. "THE LEVEL OF AIR POLLUTION IN THE SAN DIEGO REGION TODAY GREATLY EXCEEDS THE FEDERAL AIR QUALITY STANDARDS SET UNDER THE CLEAN AIR ACT TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC'S HEALTH. IN 1973, THE STANDARD FOR PHOTOCHEMICAL OXIDANT, THE MAJOR POLLUTANT IN THE REGION, WAS EXCEEDED ON 20^ DAVS I 22 OUT OF 365. THESE LEVELS OF AIR POLLUTION HAVE RESULTED IN I 23 I DAMAGE TO VEGETATION IN MUCH OF THE REGION, DAMAGE TO i 24 j AGRICULTURAL CROPS SUCH AS TOMATOES, LETTUCE, GRAPES, ALFAFA I 25 AND ORCHIDS, AS WELL AS TO PONDEROSA AND JEFFREY PINES IN ------- 172 CUYAMACA AND PALOMAR STATE PARK HAS BEEN OBSERVED. "THE SAN DIEGO REGION IS ALSO VERY SUSCEPTIBLE TO AIR POLLUTION EPISODES, A SITUATION IN WHICH WEATHER 4 CONDITIONS CAUSE POLLUTANTS TO BE TRAPPED CLOSE TO THE 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 13 19 20 21 GROUND AND BUILD VERY HIGH AND DANGEROUS CONCENTRATIONS." CHAIRMAN WALKER: I TAKE IT THAT YOU WANT TO RETAIN THAT COPY TOO, AND SUBMIT -- MR. NELSON: ONCE AGAIN, IT'S THE ONLY ONE i HAVE. 1 WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE BOTH THAT AND THE MAP THAT SHOWS SAN DIEGO HAS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF EPISODES. CHAIRMAN WALKER: WE WILL NOTE FOR THAT RECORD THEY WILL BE ASSIGNED EXHIBIT NUMBERS WHEN THEY'RE RECEIVED. WAIT A MINUTE. LET'S MAKE SURE WE HAVE ALL THIS PROPERLY DESCRIBED FOR THE COURT REPORTER. THIS IS "PHASE 1, POPULATION GROWTH POLICY STUDY FINAL REPORT," AND THE QUOTATION WAS FROM PAGE 37. YOU WERE QUOTING THE FIRST, SECOND, AND THIRD PARAGRAPHS THAT BEGIN ON PAGE 37. MR. NELSON: AND ALSO A LETTER FROM THE SAN DIEGO COUNTY APCD IN WHICH IT INCLUDES THE- FOLLOW 1NG STATEMENT. 1 WAS WONDERING FOR THE RECORD TO REQUEST OR FIND OUT IF YOU HAD THIS INFORMATION AVAILABLE WHEN YOU 22 1 MADE YOUR STUDY OR YOU THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE USEFUL. IT i 23 ! CONCERNS A REQUEST THAT WE MADE, COMMUNITY CAUSE MADE, TO 24 | HAVE THE MOBILE UNIT LOCATED IN CARLSBAD. MOT A MOBILE UNIT, 25 BUT TO HAVE A SOURCE TEST OF THE ENCINA 5 -- I'M SORRY, ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 173 ENCINA'S 1 THROUGH 4 AT THE POWER PLANT. AND NUMBER 3 ON THIS LETTER SAID: "THE APCD SOURCE TEST TEAM WILL CONDUCT A BOI LER-BY-B.Ol LER INSPECTION OF FACILITY IN NORMAL OPERATION-., ON APRIL 9TH, 1975, WITH AN EXPECTED SIX-WEEK COMPLETION DATE FOR A FINAL REPORT. THIS EVALUATION WILL INCLUDE TESTING FOR TOTAL PART ICULATES, SULPHUR DIOXIDE, AND NITROGEN OXIDE EMISSIONS." THE REASON THAT I ASKED IF YOU HAD THE USE OF THAT IS THAT THEY TELL US THEY WILL SEND US A COPY OF THE STUDY WHEN IT'S COMPLETED. WE HAVE YET TO GET OURS, AND I DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU HAD THAT AVAILABLE. WE THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE USEFUL -- WHEN WE CALLED THE APCD TO INQUIRE ABOUT JUST AIR POLLUTION FROM ENCINA, WE WERE ONLY GIVEN FIGURES FOR UNITS 1, 2, AND 3. AND ASKED WHY THEY DIDN'T HAVE ONE FOR UNIT 4, THEY SAID THE LAST TEST THEY HAD DONE WAS 1972. CHAIRMAN WALKER: ANYONE HERE ANSWER THAT QUEST!ON? MR. SWICKER: I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT STUDY. MR. NELSON: PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE USEFUL. IT MIGHT BE WORTHWHILE CHECKING IT OUT. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. MR. NELSON: OKAY. ALSO, A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING FROM THE SAN DIEGO UNION. I' WOULD JUST LIKE TO -- I WILL SEND YOU THIS LATER, BUT IT COMMENTS THAT VEGETABLE DAMAGE ------- 1 AND CROP DAMAGE HAS OCCURRED FROM AIR POLLUTION IN SAN DIEGO 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 COUNTY, AND THEN 1 HAVE THE FOLLOWING PREPARED STATEMENT. CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU'RE GOING TO SEND US COPIES OF THOSE EXHIBITS? MR. NELSON: THAT'S CORRECT. CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU UNDERSTAND ALTHOUGH IT'S NICE TO HAVE THEM HERE IN THE RECORD, WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE AT LEAST THE EXHIBITS OR COPIES FOR OUR FILES. MR. NELSON: WE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT FOR SURE IF THEY DID HAVE THE USE OF THAT SOURCE TEST OF ENCINA I, 2, J>, AND 4. CHAIRMAN WALKER: MY POINT IS, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE CLEAR IT'S TO YOUR INTEREST TO SEE THAT WE GET COPIES OF THOSE EXHIBITS. MR. NELSON: RIGHT. GENTLEMEN, ON BEHALF OF CARLSBAD COMMUNITY CAUSE, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS ABOVE AND BEYOND IN HAVING THIS HEARING IN CARLSBAD. THE OPPOR- UNITY TO ADDRESS A GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY WITHOUT HAVING TO 20 DRIVE A MINIMUM OF 50 MILES IS WELCOME BY ALL OF US. 21 ONE MINOR INFORMATIONAL ITEM THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN 22 VALUABLE IN THE PROGRESS OF THE HEARING TODAY AND AIDED MANY 23 I OF OUR OUT-OF-TOWN GUESTS FROM THE COUNTY LABOR ORGANIZATIONS I 24 i WOULD HAVE BEEN TO STATE THAT THE '£' IN EPA DOES NOT STAND 25 FOR ECONOMIC PROTECTION AGENCY. (LAUGHTER) ------- 75 1 WHILE IT IS TRUE THAT A PERSON CAN'T LIVE IF HE 2 CAN'T EAT, HIS LIFE EXPECTANCY IS EVEN SHORTER ]F HE CAN'T 3 BREATHE. WE DO NOT TAKE COMFORT IN THE FACT THAT MEN IN 4 CARLSBAD -- 1 MEAN CHULA VISTA, EL CAJON, LA MFSA, VISTA, AND 5 ,SAN DIEGO SEE NO PROBLEM WITH THE PROPOSED REFINERY. HOWEVER, 6 LARGE NUMBERS OF NORTH COUNTY RESIDENTS, AS YOU HAVE HEARD, 1 DO OBJECT TO THE ERA'S PROPOSED APPROVAL OF THIS PROJECT. 8 AS OTHERS HAVE STATED TODAY, WE BELIEVE THE 9 , PROJECT SHOULD BE AND MUST BE DENIED. AT THE VERY LEAST, 10 THE PROJECT SHOULD BE DELAYED PENDING ADDITIONAL STUDIES AND 11 INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN REQUESTED BY NUMEROUS INDIVIDUALS 12 TODAY. HOWEVER, !F AT THE END OF YOUR ANALYSIS YOU STILL 13 BELIEVE THE PROJECT MUST BE APPROVED, SPECIAL CONSIDERATION 14 SHOULD BE GIVEN TO ANY PERMIT. TO DATE THE QUESTION HAS BEEN: 15 WILL THE PRODUCTS OF THE MACAR10 REFINERY BE USED ONLY IN 16 SAN DIEGO COUNTY. IT WAS ON THIS BASIS' THAT THE CONDITIONAL 17 EPA APPROVAL WAS GIVEN. NEfTHER THE FEDERAL ENERGY ADMIN1S- 18 TRAT10N, THE CALIFORNIA PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, THE I 19 ENERGY COMMISSION, OR ANY OTHER AGENCY HAS YET IRREVOCABLY 20 COMMITTED MACARIO'S PRODUCTS TO SAN DIEGO COUNTY. YET, AT 21 THIS POINT, THIS CONDITION AND ONLY THIS CONDITION REALLY 22 WILL ALLOW THE REFINERY'S APPROVAL. -FOR THIS REASON, THE 23 PERMIT SHOULD BE DENIED WITH THE CONDITION THAT IF ALL OTHER 24 STANDARDS ARE MET, IF MACARI 0 AND SDG&E CAN PROVE BEYOND 25 : A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THE FUELS WILL BE USED'IN SAN DIEGO ------- 176 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 COUNTY, THEN AND ONLY THEN, WILL APPROVAL BE GIVEN. THIS PUT' THE BURDEN OF PROOF WHERE IT BELONGS, ON THE APPLICANT. IT IS THEIR PROJECT, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE TO DOCUMENT THEIR CLAIMS, OR THE PERMIT SHOULD BE DENIED. BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT THAT THE EPA DECISION WILL HAVE ON FUTURE DECISIONS OF THIS PROJECT BY OTHER BODIES, UTMOST CARE MUST BE TAKEN TO MAKE SURE OTHERS WILL NOT MISINTERPRET THE MAGNITUDE OR THE UNCERTAINTY OF THIS CONDITION. SINCE MACARIO HAS DECIDED TO BEGIN COLLECTING APPROVALS BEFORE EVEN APPLYING FOR A PERMIT IN THE CITY OF CARLSBAD, CONSIDERABLE PRESSURE WILL BUILD AND MOUNT WITH EACH SUCCEEDING AGENCY OR BODY FACING THE QUESTION: "THE OTHERS APPROVED IT, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?" YET NO ONE WILL SEE THE COMPLETE PROJECT PLANS OR THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT, A DOCUMENT THAT HAS BEEN DELAYED SINCE MARCH OF 1974. FOR THIS REASON, IF THE EPA DECIDES CONTRARY TtT ARGUMENT FOR DENIAL PRESENTED TODAY TO ISSUE THE APPROVAL OF THE PERMIT, PLEASE USE LANGUAGE IN THE CONDITIONS THAT 19 WILL HAVE TO BE USED THAT UNDERSCORES THE PROBLEMS THAT WILL 20 BE FACED IN MEETING THE CONDITION, THE CONDITION OF USING 21 THAT FUEL ONLY IN SAN DIEGO COUNTY, THE FACT THAT NOBODY t 22 j CAN GUARANTEE THAT RIGHT NOW. 1 23 I THE STATEMENT "EPA GIVES CONDITIONAL APPROVAL 24 25 TO REFINERY" GIVES THE IMPRESSION THE PROBLEMS AR'E SATISFIED. THE STATEMENT "MACARIO ASKED TO PROVE CLAIMS BEFORE PERMISSIO ------- 177 GRANTED FOR REFINERY" SHOWS SOMETHING MUCH MORE ACCURATE. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: MR. LOU JONES, CENTER STREET, OCEANS!DE. LOU JONES? DON BOUTVETTE, CARLSBAD. PLEASE TELL ME HOW CLOSE I CAME TO IT. MR. BOUTVETTE: YOU CAME FAIRLY CLOSE. CLOSER THAN MOST.. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY NAME IS DON BOUTVETTE. I LIVE AT 2381 JEFFERSON STREET, CARLSBAD. I'M NOT A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. I CAME TO THIS MEETING THIS MORNING ONLY AS AN OBSERVER AND A CONCERNED CITIZEN, BUT MY ATTENTION WAS DRAWN TO A LARGE DELEGATION OF TRADE UNIONS PRESENT AND THEIR SPEAKERS, MOST OF WHOM IT APPEARED WERE NOT RESIDENTS OF THIS IMMEDIATE AREA. THEY ALL EXPRESSED WORRY ABOUT JOBS AND MORE JOBS THAT IS UNDERSTANDABLE, BUT I GOT THE DISTINCT GUT FEELING THAT THEIR JOB WAS THE ONLY PROBLEM ABOUT WHICH THEY WERE WORRIED. SO, THEY DROVE UP TO CARLSBAD THIS MORNING TO LET YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THE MACARI 0 REFINERY WOULD MEAN TO 23 THEM FINANCIALLY. SO, 1 FELT I SHOULD COMMENT ON THIS. 24 HENCE, THESE NOTES. THEY WORK UP HERE ON A JOB WHICH COULD RESULT IN POLLUTION IN THE AIR WHILE WITH THEIR FAMILIES ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 THEY LIVE 30 OR 40 MILES AWAY, WHERE THE AIR IS NOT SO POLLUTED BY THE PRODUCT OF THEIR LABORS. NOT YET, ANYWAY. IT HAPPENS THAT I TOO AM A UNION MAN. I AM A PAST MEMBER OF THE NEWSPAPER GUILD OF AMERICA AND THE BOILERMAKERS. YES, THE BOILERMAKERS. I AM AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE PUBLICISTS GUILD OF AMERICA, LOCAL 8818, IATSC-CI0-AFL. I AM A PAST PRESIDENT OF THE PUBLICISTS GUILD. I GIVE THIS LITANY ONLY TO ESTABLISH MYSELF AS A QUALIFIED MEMBER OF THE LABOR MOVEMENT. FOR 35 YEARS I HAVE BEEN A WORKING STIFF, HAVE HIT THE BRICKS AND WALKED PICKET LINES, AND 1 WAS NOT ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE PUBLICISTS THREE TIMES BECAUSE I WAS NOT A MI LITANT LABOR MAN. IF ANY OF THESE CONSTRUCTION UNIONISTS ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE CONDITION OF THEIR INDUSTRY, I SUGGEST THEY TAKE A LOOK AT THE MOTION PICTURE INDUSTRY. I HAVE. I HAVE NOT HAD A JOB IN IT IN OVER A YEAR. I BROUGHT MY WIFE TO CARLSBAD FOUR YEARS AGO ON ORDERS FROM HER DOCTOR, WHO SAID SHE MUST LEAVE THE LOS ANGELES AREA BECAUSE SMOG WAS DESTROYING HER HEALTH. THIS, HOWEVER, IS NOT THE REASON 20 FOR MY OPPOSITION TO THE MACAR10 REFINERY. FORTUNATELY, WE 21 DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE WHERE [ WORK. WHEN REFINERIES, HEAVY 22 | INDUSTRY, HIGH-DENSITY POPULATION, AND THE RESULTANT AIR ! 23 | POLLUTION COMBINE, YOU CHANGE SAN DIEGO COUNTY INTO AN 24 25 EXTENSION OF ORANGE COUNTY, I WILL TAKE MY WIFE TO A YET UNDEFILED AREA OF THIS BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY. ------- 179 BUT WHAT WILL THESE CONSTRUCTION WORKERS DO WITH THEIR FAMILIES? ARE THEY THINKING THIS FAR AHEAD? ONE OF THEM, SPEAKING EARLY THIS MORNING, SAID SOMETHING LIKE THIS, QUOTE, WHAT'S THE USE OF HAVING CLEAN AIR IN OUR LUNGS IF WE HAVE NO FOOD IN OUR STOMACHS. WE HAD STRONG APPLAUSE TO THIS FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE HALL. 1 CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION ONLY WITH ANOTHER QUESTION: WHAT IS THE USE OF HAVING FOOD IN OUR STOMACHS IF WE ARE ALL DEAD FROM EMPHYSEMA. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: MR. LLOYD VON HADEN, FOOTHILL, VISTA, CALIFORNIA. MR. VON HADEN: MY NAME IS LLOYD VON HADEN. I LIVE AT 2089 FOOTHILL IN VISTA. THAT'S TEN MILES INLAND FROM HERE. AND VERY LIKELY WHERE MOST OF - THE . POLLUT1 ON WILL END UP. NOT IN CARLSBAD. IT'S BEEN SAID THAT ABOUT 98 PERCENT OF THIS OPERATION WILL BE POLLUTION-FREE. IN OTHER WORDS, ABOUT TWO PERCENT OF THEIR OPERATION WILL BE BLOWN OVER TO VISTA. ! THINK THAT'S EVEN TOO MUCH. ALSO, ALL THESE REFINERIES OPERATE A.GOOD DEAL OF THE TIME ON VARIANCES, WHICH MEANS THAT THEY MIGHT BE OPERATING 75 PERCENT OR 30 PERCENT. I THINK IT'S 23 i MISLEADING TO THINK ONLY OF THE TERMS -- THINKING OF IT WHEN IT'S OPERATING AT ITS BEST. 1 DON'T BELIEVE THE DATA THEY ARE PUTTING OUT ABOUT AIR POLLUTION. ------- 180 1 | JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE DAYS, A FEW DAYS AGO 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 LAST WEEK, 1 THINK IT WAS, THERE WAS A FIRE IN RIVERSIDE, AND THE SMOKE FROM THAT FIRE FIRST CIRCULATED AROUND. I NOTICED IT IN FALLBROOK, WHICH IS ANOTHER LITTLE TOWN ABOUT \L M1LES NORTH OF VISTA, AND THE NEXT DAY I NOTICED IT IN VISTA. AND THIS FIRE IS A LONG WAYS AWAY. 'AIR IN THIS REGION DOES NOT JUST STAY RIGHT HERE OR BLOW A FEW MILES AND THEN DISAPPEAR. IT TRAVELS AROUND. I SEE MANY STORIES RECENTLY THAT SAY THAT WE'RE GETTING SMOG FROM LOS ANGELES DOWN HERE. I THINK IT'S WRONG TO -- I HAVE NO FAITH IN THESE STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT THIS PROPOSED OPERATION WILL NOT CONTAMINATE OUR AREA. ANOTHER POINT I WOULD LIKE TO BRING OUT IS THAT THIS REFINERY WILL NEED A GREAT DEAL OF FRESH WATER. THEY SAY ABOUT 2,000,000 GALLONS A DAY. RECENTLY THERE HAVE BEEN PROPOSALS MADE TO BUILD A TRI-CITY PIPELINE THAT WILL FURNISH THIS WATER. THERE IS NOT SUFFICIENT WATER AT THIS TIME TO ACCOMMODATE THE REFINERY. THE THREE CITIES, OCEANS!DE, CARLSBAD, AND VISTA, WERE SUPPOSED TO GET TOGETHER AND PASS THE BONDS TO BUILD THIS PIPELINE. THIS WAS PUT BEFORE THE VOTERS OF VISTA IN MAY, AND IT WAS DEFEATED. THIS BOND ISSUE WAS PART OF A LARGER BOND ISSUE 23 ! FOR NEEDED IMPROVEMENTS, AND THE BALANCE OF THIS ISSUE IS 24 GOING TO BE PUT ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER IN VISTA. BUT 25 THEY'RE GOING TO OMIT THE TRI-AGENCY PIPELINE. THEY HOPE ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 181 TO GET THE TRI-AGENCY PIPELINE BY OTHER MEANS, BUT THERE IS NO ASSURANCE IT'S GOING TO BE MADE, AND I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT THIS REFINERY SHOULD NOT BE -- THE OFFICIALS SHOULD NOT ASSUME THAT EVERYTHING IS GOING TO GO SMOOTHLY FOR THEM, THAT THEY CAN PRODUCE THIS -- THE FRESH WATER THAT THEY NEED. ALL REFINERIES ARE DANGEROUS, AND T SUPPOSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE MENTIONED THAT RECENT FIRE IN PHILADELPHIA AT THE REFINERY THERE, WHICH, AS FAR AS 1 KNOW, IS STILL BURNING. THEY CAN'T PUT THE NAPTHA FIRE OUT. IT WOULD BE JUST AS DANGEROUS HERE. WHAT'S MORE, IT'S NEXT TO AN AIRPORT, WHICH I FEEL IS ABOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE LOCATION FOR ANY REFINERY. THERE IS GREAT DEANGER THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME AIRCRAFT TRAGEDIES FALLEN TO THIS REFINERY. ANOTHER POINT IS THAT I. BELIEVE THAT A REFINERY CANNOT EXIST BY ITSELF. ITS VERY EXISTENCE WILL ATTRACT OTHER CLOSELY RELATED AND UNDERS1RABLE INDUSTRIES. CONDITIONS CHANGE AND OFFICIALS CHANGE. TEN YEARS FROM NOW THEY MIGHT SAY, "OH, GEE, WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER INDUSTRY THAT 20 WILL BE CLOSELY RELATED THERE." OR WE GET SOME OTHER OFFICIAL^ 21 IN THERE THAT ARE NOT AS CONCERNED WITH POLLUTION AS SOME i 22 OF THE OFFICIALS MIGHT NOW BE. IN OTHER WORDS, I DON'T WANT i i 23 ! TO HAVE A FOOT IN THE DOOR ESTABLISHED, PRECEDENT ESTABLISHED i 24 25 AND IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, I THINK IT WOULD BE ------- 182 MUCH BETTER IF WE WOULD PUT OUR EFFORTS IN•CONSERVATI ON. 2 WE SHOULD USE LESS REFINERY PRODUCTS RATHER THAN MORE OF 3 THEM. WE SHOULD MAKE MORE OF AN EFFORT TO PRODUCE AND USE ALTERNATE NON-POLLUT[NG SOURCES OF ENERGY. AND I ESPECIALLY 5 FAVOR SOLAR ENERGY. I BELIEVE WE'RE AT THE END OF AN ERA 6 WHEN WE CAN GET BOTH CHEAP ENERGY AND MATERIALS, AND I THINK 7 THAT WE MUST ALL ADJUST TO CHANGING CONDITIONS. 8 THEREFORE, I STRONGLY URGE THE EPA NOT TO OPPOSE - 9 OR NOT APPROVE THIS REFINERY. 10 (APPLAUSE) . n CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. VON HADEN. 12 THE NEXT CARD IS THELMA VON HADEN OF THE SAME 13 ADDRESS. ]4 MRS_ VON HADEN: MY NAME IS THELMA VON HADEN. 15 I'M A HOUSEWIFE, AND I RESIDE AT 2089 FOOTHILL DRIVE IN VISTA. 16 YOU CAN'T HAVE ANY IDEA HOW DELIGHTED I WAS WHEN I 17 DISCOVERED THAT THIS AREA.WILL NO LONGER HAVE TO RELY ON 18 AN INFERIOR GRADE OF IMPORTED SMOG. NOW WE'RE GOING TO 19 START PRODUCING OUR OWN. (APPLAUSE) 20 UNFORTUNATELY, THIS REFINERY IS SUPPOSED TO BE 21 ISSUED A CERTIFICATE OF CONVENIENCE AND NECESSITY, BUT I 22 HAVE SEEN NO DEMONSTRATION THAT THE NAT I ON'S -EX ISTING 23 REFINERIES ARE BEING OPERATED AT CAPACITY; I. HAVE SEEN NO 24 DEMONSTRATION THAT EXISTING REFINERY SITES HAVE BEEN COVERED 25 TO THEIR FULL CAPACITY. I ALSO HAVE A QUESTION WHICH ------- 183 1 I OCCURRED TO ME THIS MORNING ABOUT HOW THE REFINERY IS GOING 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 TO BE PAID FOR. IF IT IS A FULLY OWNED SUBSIDIARY OF SAN DIEGO GAS £ ELECTRIC, CAN ITS CAPITAL COSTS BE ADDED TO THE COMPANY'S RATE BASE AND PAID FOR BY THE RATE PAYERS? NOW, I KNOW THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY IS FREQUENTLY GIVEN ARGUMENTS THAT WE MUST BALANCE ANY CLEAN ENVIRONMENT AGAINST THE DEMANDS OF A FUNCTIONING ECONOMY, THAT WE MUST BE CAREFUL THAT WE ARE NOT WIPING OUT JOBS. HOWEVER, THE ENTIRE ENERGY INDUSTRY IS EXTREMELY CAPITAL INSENSITIVE. IT IS A RATHER SMALL EMPLOYER OF LABOR, AND IT IS FOR THIS REASON THAT PUERTO RICO'S OPERATION BOOTSTRAP IS FALLING ON ITS FACE. WHAT WE ARE BEING OFFERED HERE, EVEN WHILE BOOTSTRAP IS FAILING, IS A LOCAL ADDITION OF OPERATION BOOTSTRAP. FURTHERMORE, REFINERIES ARE NOT ALL A PLUS MATTER. THEY ARE LARGE ENERGY USERS, AND I HAVE A VERY STRONG SUSPICION THAT ONE REASON WHY THE REFINERY AND ITS 18 j RELATED USERS ARE BEING BROUGHT IN IS THAT THIS POWER 19 20 21 COMPANY URGENTLY NEEDS NEW CUSTOMERS FOR ITS NEW FACILITIES, AND THAT THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS VAST ENERGY COMPLEX WILL BE TO COMMIT INCEST WITH THE POWER PLANTS. (LAUGHTER) 22 ! FURTHERMORE, THE INCREASES IN POPULATION AND 23 BUSINESS, WHICH THIS COMPLEX WILL BRING IN, SUCH COMPLEXES 24 i HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN SHOWN TO COST US MORE TO PROVIDE WITH 25 SERVICES THAN THEY WILL BRING IN IN TAXES. WITHOUT CLEAN ------- 1 ENVIRONMENT AND WITHOUT CONSERVATION WHICH WILL HELP US 2 POSTPONE RESOURCE EXHAUSTION, WE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY 3 ECONOMY EITHER. 4 I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS MORNING IN OUR NEIGHBORING 5 CITY OF LOS ANGELES THERE WAS A HEALTH ADVISORY. I WOULD 6 LIKE TO ASK THE QUESTION OF WHAT ONE DOES FOR ONE'S HEALTH 7 DURING A HEALTH ADVISORY. 8 FURTHERMORE, I WISH THAT ADVOCATES OF NEW FORMS 9 OF LOW-POLLUTING INDUSTRY WOULD PLEASE STOP ACTING AS IF 10 EVERY TIME YOU BUILD A LOW-POLLUTION FACILITY ITS POLLUTION 11 WILL BE SUBTRACTED FROM WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE RATHER THAN 12 ADDED TO IT. 13 THANK YOU. 14 (APPLAUSE) 15 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THE NEXT CARD IS JOHN P. 16 MC GILL, HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD. 17 MR. MC GILL: I'M JOHN MC GILL OF 43^0 HIGHLAND 18 DRIVE IN CARLSBAD. ,9 I WOULD FIRST LIKE TO SPEAK FOR MYSELF AND THEN 20 AS A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE. I WOULD LIKE TO BRING TO 21 YOUR ATTENTION, GENTLEMEN, TWO SPEAKERS AND THE FACT THAT 22 | BOTH OF THEM BROUGHT UP TO YOU THIS EVENING AND THIS AFTERNOO 23 SOMETHING THAT IS SOMEWHAT AKIN TO A SAYING A FEW YEARS BACK 24 ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE, PERHAPS: THE WAY TO A MAN'S HEART 25 is THROUGH HIS STOMACH. WE HAVE SEEN HERE, BY YOUR ACTION ------- .135 OF THE PAST FEW MONTHS,'THAT THE WAY TO ACHIEVE CONSTRUCTION 2 OF THIS REFINERY IS THE INDIRECT APPROACH. FOR WHAT IN 3 ESSENCE YOU WILL DO WILL HAVE PERHAPS A TOTALLY ADVERSE EFFECT UPON ALL OTHER GOVERNING BODIES. IT DOES NOT ESCAPE 5 US HERE IN CARLSBAD THAT THE PRIME PURPOSE OF BRINGING YOU 6 IN AT THIS TIME WAS TO ACHIEVE THIS. THE PEOPLE WHO OPERATE SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC, MACARIO REFINERY ARE NOT UNINTELLI- 8 GENT OR IMBECILES, AS THE CASE MIGHT BE. THEY ARE VERY 9 INTELLIGENT PEOPLE. AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE HERE TODAY ARE 10 INTELLIGENT, TOO, AND THEY CAN SEE THIS PURPOSE. SO, FOR 11 THE RECORD, PLEASE REMEMBER THIS, THAT WE ARE AWARE OF THE 12 FACT AND THE PURPOSE WHY SAN DIEGO GAS & ELECTRIC STROVE 13 VERY EARNESTLY TO HAVE YOU MAKE A PRONOUNCEMENT WITH REGARD 14 TO PERHAPS THE FUTURE CONSTRUCTION OF THIS REFINERY. 15 AS A MEMBER OF COMMUNITY CAUSE, I WOULD LIKE TO 16 RESPOND TO MR. PRESCOTT. MR. PRESCOTT LEFT A FEW MINUTES 17 AGQ_ HE CAME FN/ MADE A STATEMENT, AND LEFT. HE MADE A 18 STATEMENT WHICH I RESENT BECAUSE I THINK IT IS NOT TRUE. HE 19 SAID THAT PEOPLE WHO SPOKE FOR COMMUNITY CAUSE SPOKE WITH 20 EMOTIONALISM. YET WHEN MR. PRESCOTT SPOKE, I DON'T RECALL 21 HIM PRESENTING YOU WITH FACTS, DETAILS. MERELY GENERALITIES 22 YET THE SPEAKERS FROM COMMUNITY CAUSE AS WELL AS THOSE WHO 23 ! SPOKE ON THEIR OWN BEHALF IN THIS COMMUNITY AND OTHER 24 ! COMMUNITIES SPOKE VERY ELOQUENTLY, PRESENTED DETAILED FACTS 25 WHICH CAN BE SUBTANTIATED, AND I THINK YOU SHOULD REMEMBER ------- 186 I' THAT AS YOU PROCEED FURTHER ON IN THIS MATTER. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU, MR. MC GILL. I WOULD LIKE TO ASSURE ALL OF YOU ONE OF THE REASONS FOR HAVING A STENOGRAPHIC REPORTER TAKE THESE HEARINGS DOWN IS SO EVERYONE'S ELOQUENCE OR LACK THEREOF CAN BE PRESERVED AND CAN BE REVIEWED AT LEISURE. I GUESS WE HAVE ONE MORE FAMILY ACT. MEGAN JACKSON OF CHINQUAPIN, CARLSBAD. MS. JACKSON: YOU GOT THE FAMILY RIGHT. I'M AFRAID YOU MISPRONOUNCED THE FIRST NAME. CHAIRMAN WALKER:' THAT'S PRETTY CLOSE FOR ME. MS. JACKSON: OKAY, I'LL GRANT YOU THAT. JUST RECENTLY 1 GRADUATED FROM CARLSBAD HIGH SCHOOL, AND NOW I'M GOING AWAY, BUT NOT ALL MY FRIENDS ARE, AND THEY DON'T LIKE IT HERE BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO BREATHE. LAST YEAR I CAN REMEMBER AT LEAST A COUPLE OF TIMES DURING P.E. WE WERE FORCED TO CANCEL IT BECAUSE IT WAS JUST LUD1CRIOUS. YOU RUN AROUND THE TRACK A COUPLE OF TIMES, AND YOU START GASPING. PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT. STUDENTS DON'T LIKE THAT. I FIGURE THAT SINCE WE'RE GOING 23 ! TO BE AROUND' LONGEST, PERHAPS YOU OUGHT TO LISTEN TO WHAT 24 25 WE SAY. WE ARE YOUNGER THAN YOU ARE, PERHAPS, AND WE DON'T HAVE AS MUCH EXPERIENCE, BUT WE CAN DO THINGS. AND AFTER A ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 187 WHILE IT WILL BE US WHO ARE THE ONES WHO WILL MAKE DECISIONS. BESIDES THE AIR POLLUTION FACTOR, WE DON'T LIKE SWIMMING AT A BEACH FILLED WITH TAR. AND AFTER ALL, THE BEACH IS PRACTICALLY ALL THERE IS TO DO IN CARLSBAD. SO, KEEP IN MIND THINGS LIKE THIS WHEN YOU GO TO MAKE A DECISION ON WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO TO BUILD A REFINERY. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. WE HAVE NOW GONE THROUGH THE CARDS. 1 WILL NOW CALL THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT RESPOND WHEN THEIR NAMES WERE EARLIER CALLED. IF ANY ARE HERE AND WISH TO SPEAK, WE WILL HEAR YOU. IF ANYBODY KNOWS OF STATEMENTS THAT THEY WISH TO FORWARD OR HAND IN, THIS IS THE OPPORTUNITY MR. STANLEY WALLEN, HYMETTUS, LEUCADIA. MR. C. E. KOOMS, SAN DIEGO BUILDING TRADES. MR. JAMES D. THOMSON OF CARLSBAD. ARTHUR J. MEIER, CHEVY CHASE, LA MESA, CALIFORNIA, HE REPRESENTS LOCAL 230. DOESN'T SAY WHAT UNION. MONTY NESB1T, SAN PABLO DRIVE, LAKE SAN MARCOS. ANTHONY BELLIN, CAMIN1TO ESTRADA, CARLSBAD. JOHN M. STUPPY, JAMES DRIVE. I PRESUME CARLSBAD. CECIL J. YOUNGSTROM OF CARLSBAD. DON ALBERTO 24 DRIVE 25 CHRIS CHRISTIE, HIGHLAND DRIVE, CARLSBAD. ------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18! E. W. ANDERSON, SKYLINE ROAD, CARLSBAD. FRED CLAYTON, PRUETT DRIVE, VISTA. BARBARA T1CE WILLIAMS, MIRA SAL, VISTA. JAY C. FIKES, BUENA VISTA CIRCLE, CARLSBAD. OLIVER CARLSON, ADAMS STREET, CARLSBAD. GENE YOUNG, WEST LINCOLN, ESCOND1DO. IRIS SANKEY, SOUTH SIERRA, SOLANA BEACH. LOU JONES, CENTER STREET IN OCEANSIDE. IF YOU KNOW ANY OF THESE PEOPLE AND THEY DO WISH TO SEND IN COMMENTS, WE WILL RECEIVE THEM FOR UP TO 30 DAYS. I SEE SOMEONE APPROACHING THE PODIUM. MR. MILLER: I WAS HERE THIS MORNING, AND I PUT IN -- IN FACT, 1 SPOKE TO YOU PERSONALLY ON A QUESTION I HAD. I'M JUST ASKING YOU: MAY 1 SPEAK? CHAIRMAN WALKER: YES, YOU CERTAINLY MAY. MR. MICHAEL MILLER? MR. MILLER: YES, SIR. 18 i CHAIRMAN WALKER: YOU GO AHEAD, MR. MILLER. I 19 ' MR. MlLLER: THANK YOU. 20 IS THIS ON? 21 CHAIRMAN WALKER: 1 BELIEVE SO. 22 MR. MILLER: I'M MICHAEL MILLER, AND i LIVE A 23 I FEW BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE HIGH SCHOOL. 1 GRADUATED LAST -YEAR 24 j ] KNOW YOUR TIME IS VALUABLE BUT AT THIS POINT, 25 I THIS ISSUE IS MORE VALUABLE TO ME BECAUSE I GO SURFING ------- 189 1 PRACTICALLY EVERY DAY, EVERY MORNING, AND I SEE THESE OIL 2 TANKERS COMING IN AND OUT. WHAT'S THIS TOWN COMING TO, 3 I WONDER INSIDE MY HEAD. AND TO ME IT DOESN'T SEEM LOGICAL 4 THAT A REFINERY WOULDN'T POLLUTE, WOULDN'T MAKE MORE P.OLLU- 5 TANTS INTO THE AIR, CONTRIBUTE MORE POLLUTANTS INTO THE AIR. 6 AS YOU CAN SEE, I DON'T HAVE A, PREPARED STATEMENT (LAUGHTER). 7 I'M AGAINST IT (LAUGHTER). (APPLAUSE) 8 I WANT TO GROW UP IN THIS TOWN AND MAYBE POSSIBLY 9 SETTLE DOWN AFTER GOING AWAY FOR A COLLEGE EDUCATION OR 10 SOMETHING, AND I DON'T WANT TO COME BACK INTO THIS TOWN AND 11 SEE IT TURN INTO A HUNTINGTON BEACH, FOR INSTANCE. THERE'S 12 A REFINERY ACROSS FROM THE BEACH UP THERE, AND THIS REFINERY 13 IS SUPPOSED TO BE LOCATED -- THIS PROPOSED REFINERY IS 14 SUPPOSED TO BE LOCATED 2.2 MILES FROM THE COASTLINE. 15 HUNTINGTON BEACH UP THERE LOOKS LIKE A--EXCUSE 16 THE EXPRESSION--LOOKS LIKE -- 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: SEWER. is -MR. MILLER: -- SEWER. THANK YOU. IT DOES. j 19 I MEAN, IT'S A MESS. AND CARLSBAD IS A BEAUTIFUL TOWN. 20 I LIVE HERE. I'VE LIVED HERE MOST OF MY LIFE. I LIVED IN 21 OCEANSIDE FOR TWO YEARS. I'M JUST TOTALLY AGAINST IT. f 22 AND IF I SEE IT COME INTO THIS TOWN, I'M 23 SERIOUSLY GOING TO BE PICKING UP MY BAG AND MOVING EITHER i 24 j TO HAWAII OR SOMEWHERE, SOMEWHERE WHERE THERE IS NO OTHER 25 REFINERY. (LAUGHTER) ------- 190 1 ALL RIGHT, YOU GUYS CAUGHT ME, BUT THAT'S BESIDE 2 THE POINT. HAWAII HAS WINDS THAT BLOW OUT THE POLLUTION 3 AND FILTH YOU PUT OUT IN THE AIR FROM A REFINERY OUT TO SEA, 4 AND CARLSBAD DURING -- WHAT'S HIS NAME SAID IN THE EARLY 5 MORNING HOURS THERE'S NO WIND AT ALL, AND THIS FILTH AND 6 POLLUTION WILL JUST BE INVERTED STRAIGHT UP INTO THE OZONE 7 LAYER AND WHATEVER, BUT TO ME IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A VERY 8 GOOD -- ECONOMICALLY.IT SEEMS LIKE A GOOD THING FOR THIS 9 TOWN, BUT ENVIRONMENTALLY IT LOOKS LIKE A HELL HOLE. 10 THANK YOU. 11 (APPLAUSE) 12 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE BEEN HANDED ONE MORE 13 CARD, A MR. JIM RICE, WOODLAND WAY, CARLSBAD. 14 MR. RICE: I'M JIM RICE FROM 3^03 WOODLAND WAY, 15 CARLSBAD. 16 I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING PREPARED TONIGHT, BUT I 17 JUST HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING AGAINST THIS BEFORE IT'S ALL OVER. 18 I MOVED DOWN FROM L.A. ABOUT THREE YEARS AGO, MOVED DOWN 19 BECAUSE THE SMOG AND POLLUTION IS SO BAD UP THERE. 1 FINALLY 20 FOUND A CLEAN COMMUNITY, AND NOW THEY'RE GOING TO BUILD A 21 REFINERY, OR MIGHT BUILD ONE. I DON'T KNOW WHERE I'M GOING 22 TO GO NEXT. MAYBE MEXICO. I CAN'T KEEP RUNNING AWAY, SO 23 ! I'M GOING TO TRY TO FIGHT IT WHILE I CAN. (APPLAUSE) 24 I TOO SURF A LOT. 1 WAS OUT SURFING A COUPLE 25 WEEKS AGO A FEW MILES SOUTH OF WHERE THE TANKERS MOOR. ------- 191 WHILE 1 WAS SURFING, A COUPLE 55-GALLON DRUMS CAME IN. I 2 DON'T THINK THAT'S TOO GOOD, TO LET DRUMS FLOAT AROUND. YOU 3 CAN GET HIT BY A DRUM. I JUST WANT TO SAY I'M AGAINST THIS. 4 (APPLAUSE) 5 CHAIRMAN WALKER: I HAVE TWO MORE CARDS. WE 6 HAVE HEARD FROM THE REST OF THE JACKSON FAMILY. MR. GENE JACKSON, JR. 8 MR. JACKSON: I HAVE JUST GOT A COUPLE OF THINGS 9 TO SAY. ONE IS, I WORK AT A PLACE JUST ACROSS THE ROAD FROM 10 THE PROPOSED REFINERY SITE, AND OUR BREAK TIME, LUNCH TIME 11 COINCIDES JUST WHEN THE SUN IS GOING DOWN. WE LIKE TO GO 12 OUTSIDE THERE, YOU KNOW, ON THE PATIO AND TAKE A LOOK AT 13 THE SUNSETS. AND A SUNSET OVER A REFINERY JUST ISN'T MUCH 14 TO LOOK AT, YOU KNOW. 15 ANOTHER THING IS THIS KIND OF NOISE. YOU MAKE 16 THE ROUNDS OUTSIDE, SIT OUT THERE AND BREATHE. BEING RIGHT H ACROSS THE ROAD FROM THE REFINERY, WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE 18 ABLE TO DO THAT TOO MUCH IF THEY WILL BUILD THERE. 19 SOMETHING ELSE IS PROBABLY IN THE ENVIRONMENTAL 20 IMPACT REPORT, BUT JUST LIKE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT: 21 THERE IS A LOT OF ANIMALS OUT THERE. YOU KNOW. COYOTES. 22 WF SAW A COYOTE WANDER BY AT NOON, BY THE FENCE. THAT'S NOT 23 THE KIND OF THING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WHEN THE AREA BUILDS i 24 i UP, THE REFINERY AND THE INDUSTRIAL PARK THAT WILL INEVITABLY 25 FOLLOW IT. THAT'S GOING TO MOVE THAT WILD LIFE OUT. AND ------- 192 1 IT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD OPEN OUR EYES TO BEFORE IT'S TOO 2 LATE. THIS REFINERY IS GOING TO DESTROY IT. 3 ' I'VE SEEN OTHER REFINERY TOWNS. EL SEGUNDO, 4 MARTINEZ. MARTINEZ IS OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, BUT THE 5 IMPACT OF SOMETHING BEING OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, HALF 6 HIDDEN AWAY WHERE PEOPLE CAN'T SEE IT IS JUST THAT MUCH MORE 7 DEVASTATING WHERE YOU SEE ACRES AND ACRES PAVED OVER WITH 8 TANKS, ACRES AND ACRES PAVED OVER WITH, YOU KNOW, THE JUNK 9 AND THE PIPES AND THE STEAM AND INDUSTRIAL HELL THAT COMES 10 WITH A REFINERY. n CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN FORTUNATE IN A LOT OF WAYS 12 TO ESCAPE FROM THE PLIGHT OF THE INDUSTRIAL -- THE CHAINS 13 THAT INDUSTRY HOLDS, YOU KNOW, HEAVY INDUSTRY, YOU KNOW, HOLDS SO MUCH OF AMERICA IN. I THINK WE SHOULD TRY TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A LOT TO LOSE. 1 THINK THIS REFINERY IS GOING TO DESTROY MUCH. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN.WALKER: LOIS BONCER. MS. BONCER: THIS MEETING is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT- AIR 'POLLUTION RATHER THAN OPENING UP OTHER PROBLEMS AN D - - CHAIRMAN WALKER: WAIT JUST A SECOND AND WE WILL MOVE THE MICROPHONE DOWN. MS. BONCER: I'M SORRY, i NEVER GREW. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ------- 193 1 THANK YOU. 2 CHAIRMAN WALKER: NOW, WE HAVE YOUR NAME RIGHT? 3. MS. BONCER: BONCER. 4 CHAIRMAN WALKER: AND YOU'RE -- 5 MS. BONCER: 5219 EL ARBOL DRIVE IN CARLSBAD. 6 CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. 7 MS. BONCER: 1 HAVE BEEN A RESIDENT OF TERRAMAR 8 FOR OVER TEN YEARS, WHICH IS A VERY NEAR NEIGHBOR OF THE 9 ENCINA POWER PLANT. THE MACARIO REFINERY PEOPLE SAY THEY 10 ARE GOING TO HAVE TO MEET AIR POLLUTION STANDARDS AS SET 11 MY LAW AND THAT, THEREFORE, WE HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, 12 JUST AS THE ENCINA POWER PLANT HAS TO MEET AIR POLLUTION 13 STANDARDS. AND THEY SAY THEY DO MEET THESE STANDARDS, AND 14 THEY HAVE THE FIGURES FROM THE POLLUTION CONTROL TO PROVE ,5 IT. 1 JUST WANT TO SAY THAT BEING A NEAR NEIGHBOR I HAVE ON 16 MANY OCCASIONS SEEN THE BLACK SMOKE POURING OUT. NOT EVERY 17 DAY, OF COURSE, BUT IT IS INVISIBLE, AND WE ALL KNOW IT 18 ISN'T THE VISIBLE PART THAT IS THE MOST DANGEROUS. 19 ON THREE OCCASIONS I HAVE ATTENDED THE AIR 20 CONTROL BOARD IN SAN DIEGO WHEN THEY WERE POURING FORTH THE 21 BLACK SMOKE, ASKING THEM TO COME UP AND TEST THE AIR NOW, t 22 AND ON ALL THREE OCCASIONS I HAVE GOTTEN A RECEPTIONIST TYPE 23 WHO TOLD ME THERE IS NOBODY IN THE OFFICE WHOM I CAN TALK TO, 24 NO ONE THERE WHO KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT AIR POLLUTION OR CAN 25 TAKE ANY COMPLAINTS AT THE TIME. AND I THINK THIS IS VERY ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 SIGNIFICANT. THIS HAS HAPPENED ON THREE OCCASIONS WHICH, TO ME, SAYS THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN KEEPING CLOSE TABS ON THE INDUSTRY THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MONITORING, THAT THEY ARE MOT INTERESTED IN CITIZEN'S COMPLAINTS TO THAT EFFEC1 (APPLAUSE) NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE A SUGGESTION TO THE MACAR10 PEOPLE, THAT IF THEY ARE SO CONFIDENT THAT THEY CAN MEET AND CONTINUE TO MEET ALL AIR POLLUTION STANDARDS AND THAT THEIR REFINERY WILL NOT BE OF ANY DANGER TO ANYONE, THAT THEY PUT UP A SEVERAL-MILLION DOLLAR BOND OF THEIR OWN MONEY THAT PEOPLE COULD PUT IN CLAIMS AGAINST SHOULD THEY FEEL THAT THEY ARE SUFFERING ANY ILL EFFECTS FROM THIS REFINERY. 1 SUGGEST THEY PUT THEIR MONEY WHERE THEIR MOUTH IS. (APPLAUSE) WITH THEIR MONEY, I THINK PEOPLE WOULD FEEL A LOT BETTER ABOUT IT, WOULD BE MORE FREE TO BELIEVE THEM WHEN THEY MAKE THESE PROMISES. THANK YOU. CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. MRS. JOAN JACKSON: MAY i ADDRESS -- CHAIRMAN WALKER: CERTAINLY, i AM ABOUT TO CALL FOR ANYBODY WHO HAS NOT YET SPOKEN. MRS. JACKSON: i WOULD JUST LIKE TO THANK YOU 23 I VERY, VERY MUCH FOR COMING TO OUR COMMUNITY. I THINK THIS j 24 WAS A VERY WELL-ORGANIZED HEARING, AND WE REALLY APPRECIATE 25 THE OPPORTUNITY OF HAVING YOU HERE. AND I WOULD ALSO LIKE ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 n 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 195 TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT IT MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE AN ALL- JACKSON FAMILY SHOW. HOWEVER, I HAVE TWO CHILDREN WHO WEREN'T HERE TONIGHT. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: ONE MORE? TELL US YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS. MR. DALCOFF:. MY NAME is LARRY DALCOFF. i LIVE AT 2601 JEFFERSON STREET IN CARLSBAD. I ALSO AM HAPPY THAT YOU HELD YOUR HEARING HERE. THIS IS A VERY WONDERFUL COMMUNITY. I'M VERY GLAD 1 LIVE HERE. I'M PARTICULARLY HAPPY THAT IT DOES HAVE SO MUCH PARTICIPATION BY THE ORDINARY CITIZEN IN ITS COMMUNITY AFFAIRS. MANY VALUABLE THINGS ABOUT THE COMMUNITY. HOPE THAT PRESERVATION OF THE COMMUNITY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN ITS PRESENT FORM IS CONSIDERED- A DESIRE BY YOUR COMMITTEE. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. BEFORE WE GO TOO FAR SAYING ALL THE NICE THINGS, LET US BE SURE THAT EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THE AIR CONTAMINATION PROBLEM HAS BEEN HEARD. ' ONE MORE? TELL US YOUR NAME, ADDRESS, AND 23 AFFILIATION. 24 25 MR. GUNTO : MY NAME IS JOE GUNTO. I LIVE AT 146 REDWOOD AVENUE IN CARLSBAD. ------- 196 CHAIRMAN WALKER: JOE -- MR. GUNTO: GUNTO, G-U-N-T-0. I MOVED TO CARLSBAD ALMOST EXACTLY ONE YEAR AGO •TO GO TO SCHOOL AT MIRA COSTA COLLEGE, AND THAT WAS PART OF WHY 1 CAME-HERE. I THINK PART OF WHY 1 CAME HERE IS BECAUSE I HAD SUBJECTED MYSELF TO TWO YEARS OF LIFE IN LONG BEACH, IF YOU CAN CALL THAT LIFE. I'M FACED IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS OF HAVING TO MOVE NORTH TO A TOWN A LOT OF PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA REALLY LIKE. THEY WOULD LIKE TO GO THERE. THAT'S SANTA BARBARA. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE BEEN THERE. I HAVE BEEN THERE A COUPLE OF TIMES IN THE LAST MONTH OR SO TO CHECK IT OUT. AND ONE THING THAT REALLY IMPRESSED ME WAS SOMEONE SAYING, "DON'T WORRY ABOUT GOING SWIMMING HERE UNLESS YOU'RE WILLING TO DRIVE ABOUT 35 MILES UP THE COAST, OR EIGHT OUT OF TEN TIMES YOU WILL COME BACK WITH OIL IN YOUR HAIR," WHICH DOESN'T SOUND TOO APPEALING. BUT WHEN I LIVED IN COLORADO A FEW YEARS AGO I WORKED IN A CHEMICAL PLANT FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS. I THINK THAT OIL REFINERIES AND CHEMICAL PLANTS ARE KIND OF A LOT ALIKE. AND THE MACAR10 PLANT HAS STATED THEY CAN CONTROL THE AMOUNT OF POLLUTION THAT THEY'RE GOING TO PUT INTO THE AIR, AND THEY GIVE ALL THE NICE, NEAT FIGURES THEY HAVE IN THEIR LITTLE BULLETIN, WHICH PROBABLY DOESN'T MEAN ANY MORE TO YOU THAN IT DOES TO ME. BUT THEY HAVE GIVEN IT TO YOU ANYWAY. ------- 197 1 AFTER WORKING SIX YEARS IN A CHEMICAL PLANT AND 2 OBSERVING HOW THE MACHINERY AND THE CONTROLS THAT THEY USE 3 TO CONTROL THE PROCESSES AND STUFF WORK, THEY DON'T WORK 4 TOO WELL. THE OPERATORS WHO RUN THE PLANTS USUALLY END UP 5 HAVING TO WORK WITH THE NEW PROCESSORS, WHICH THE.MACAR10 6 IS TOTALLY GOING TO BE A NEW PROCESS, SO YOU CAN EXPECT 7 A LOT OF PROBLEMS RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING. BUT THE OPERATORS 8 USUALLY HAVE TO WORK A LOT TO GET THE PROCESS TO WORK AT ALL 9 WITH ANY KIND OF A TOLERANCE. 10 1 THINK SOMEBODY ELSE POINTED OUT EARLIER THEY II USUALLY ALLOWED THEMSELVES SOME TYPE OF TOLERANCE TO WORK 12 WITHIN. YOU FIND IF THINGS REACH ABOUT 70 PERCENT OF THEIR 13 PEAK EFFICIENCY THEY'RE DOING PRETTY WELL. AND SOME OF 14 THE THINGS THAT ARE CONSIDERED MORE ON THE LOW PRIORITY OF 15 WHAT THE PLANT IS INTERESTED IN SEEING THAT THEY DO WORK 16 EFFICIENTLY ARE THE THINGS THAT CONTROL POLLUTION. THESE 17 THINGS SEEM TO HAVE A WAY OF GETTING PUSHED IN THE BACKGROUND 18 WHEN THEY ARE ALLOCATING FUNDS TO PREPARE THEM AND TO 19 MAINTAIN THEM. 20 THE LADY THAT WAS UP HERE JUST TWO OR THREE 21 PEOPLE BEFORE ME POINTED OUT WHEN SHE USED TO CALL THE AGENCY 22 IN SAN DIEGO WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE WATCHING THE EMCINA 23 PLANT AND ASKED THEM TO COME UP AND CHECK THE AIR NOW, THAT 24 ISA KEY FACTOR. AND IF THE PLANT GOES IN, YOU WILL ALL 25 BECOME AWARE OF THAT IN A FEW YEARS, THE "NOW" THING. ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 19 1 HAVE BEEN IN THE OFFICE IN THE PLANT I WORKED IN IN COLORADO WHEN CALLS WERE COMING IN BY PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY ABOUT "WHAT'S THE SMELL THAT'S GOING TO THE AIR? AND WILL THIS DAMAGE OUR PLANTS OR WILL' THIS DAMAGE OUR LUNGS" OR WHATEVER. THE ONLY THING WE WERE TOLD, "DON'T PICK UP THE TELEPHONE. WE HAVE A TAPE RECORDER THAT ANSWERS ALL THESE MESSAGES, AND WE WILL HANDLE IT TOMORROW WHEN THE OFFICE STAFF COMES IN." WELL, 1 DON'T THINK 1 HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT ALL THAT MEANS. BUT I JUST WANTED TO TELL YOU THIS. LIKE I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO COMING BACK TO CARLSBAD TO LIVE. 1 REALLY LIKE THIS AREA. I LIKE THE CLEAN AIR THAT'S HERE. 1 LIKE THE PACE THAT IS HERE. I THINK THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF YOU ARE HERE FOR, THE PACE OF LIFE. AND THAT TO ME IS' OF KEY IMPORTANCE. IT ISN'T FAST LIKE LOS ANGELES. THE AIR IS CLEAN. AND IF YOU'RE HERE FOR THAT REASON, THEN YOU BETTER MAKE IT KNOWN NOW AND SPEAK UP OR SAVE IT BECAUSE WHEN IT'S GONE, IT'S GONE. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: i SEE A GENTLEMAN IN THE BACK THERE. WOULD YOU GIVE US YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS AND AFFILIATION. 24 MR. HOLLENDEN: MY NAME IS GARY HOLLENDEN. I 25 LIVE AT 5400 CARLSBAD BOULEVARD IN CARLSBAD. ------- 199 1 GENTLEMEN, 1 REALIZE THAT LOVE OF A PLACE IS NOT 2 PART .OF YOUR CHARTER. I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A SET OF 3 STANDARDS TO WHICH YOU MUST WORK. I WOULD LIKE TO, HOWEVER, 4 POINT OUT TO YOU THAT MOST DESIGNS ARE A SET OF STANDARDS 5 AND OBJECTIVES; AND UNTIL THEY'RE BUILT AND UNTIL THEY HAVE 6 WORKED EVERY SINGLE DAY, WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WILL 7 WORK OR WHETHER THEY WON'T WORK. 8 I AS AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER HAVE SEEN MANY 9 SYSTEMS DESIGNED AND NOT WORKED TO THOSE POSSIBILITIES OR 10 DESIGN OBJECTIVES. I, AS CHAIRMAN OF THE ELECTRICAL 11 ENGINEERING ORGANIZATION IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, HAVE 12 MANY PROBLEMS WHERE ORGANIZATIONS HAVE WORKED FAR BELOW -- 13 1 MEAN OPERATIONS HAVE WORKED FAR BELOW THE DESIGN SPECIFI- 14 CATIONS. 15 1 HAVE A PERSONAL RULE THAT I APPLY TO THE 16 VARIOUS DESIGNS THAT I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR. WHEN SOMEONE 17 COMES TO ME AND SAYS, "HERE IS MY DESIGN, HERE IS WHAT IT 18 WILL DO," I SAY, "NOW TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOUR OTHER DESIGNS 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 WORKED OUT. TELL ME THE RECORD OF EVERY ONE OF THE OTHER UNITS YOU HAVE BUILT AND HOW THEIR ACTUAL OPERATIONS HAVE COMPARED TO THE DESIGN OBJECTIVES." I THINK THIS WOULD BE ONE THING WE SHOULD SURE ASK THE ORGANIZATIONS AFFILIATED WITH MACAR10 OR THEIR ENGINEERS: "LET US GET A RECORD OF YOUR DESIGN OBJECTIVES BEFORE YOU GET YOUR PERMISSION. ALL THE VARIANCES, ALL THE ACCIDENTS, ALL THE SLIGHT DEVIATIONS ------- 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 200 THAT WERE PERMUTED AND THAT YOU ENCOUNTERED OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS." LET US THEN DISCOUNT EVERY CLAIM BY THAT MUCH AND THEN BASE OUR DECISION ON THAT. NOT ON THE DESIGN OBJECTIVES, BUT. ON THE PROJECTED ACTUAL OPERATION. 1 THINK WE WILL.COME UP WITH A VERDICT THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ANY IMPROVEMENT IN OUR AIR JUST BECAUSE OF THE REFINERY. THANK YOU. (APPLAUSE) CHAIRMAN WALKER: THANK YOU. IS THERE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS OR HAS NOT PUT IN A CARD WHO FEELS AN URGE TO SPEAK TO US TONIGHT? VERY WELL, THEN, 1 WILL SAY FOR MYSELF AND FOR THE OTHERS ON THE PANEL HERE, FOR THE AGENCY, THAT IS HAS, IN SPITE OF APPEARANCES, BEEN A PLEASURE FOR US TO COME DOWN AND LISTEN TO YOU. WE DO TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY OUR OBLIGATION TO CONSIDER THE PUBLIC INTEREST AND TO CONSIDER THE PUBLIC DESIRES. 1 DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS GOING TO' BE. A GREAT MANY PEOPLE WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT THE 21 j FINAL DECISION. ALL OF THE REMARKS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE i 22 | WILL BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED. THE COMMENTS THAT WERE SENT 23 !N AHEAD OF TIME WILL BE CAREFULLY CONSIDERED. WE ARE QUITE 24 25 COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT DECISION NOT ONLY FOR YOU BUT FOR US. ------- 201 1 I WILL SAY NOW FOR THE RECORD THAT WE WILL KEEP 2 THE RECORD OPEN FOR 30 DAYS FROM TODAY. THE CLOSE OF 3 BUSINESS OF THE 23RD OF SEPTEMBER, 1975. ALL REMARKS THAT 4 ARE SENT IN WILL BE CONSIDERED A PART OF THE RECORD. 5 NOW, I WILL SAY THIS: WE GET A LOT OF MAIL UP 6 IN SAN FRANCISCO, SO IF YOU WILL IDENTIFY IT ON THE RECORD 7 AS HAVING TO DO WITH HE-124-- THAT WAS LISTED IN THE PUBLIC 8 NOTICE, HE-124-- IT'S EVEN MORE LIKELY TO GET TO THE RIGHT 9 FILE, THE RIGHT RECORD. 10 VERY WELL, THEN, IT'S BEEN A LONG DAY. I APPRE- 11 CIATE YOUR COURTESY AND YOUR KINDNESSES TODAY. I RECOGNIZE 12 ALL OF YOUR ENTHUSIASMS, AND THAT WILL, TOO, BE PERHAPS 13 NOTED NOT IN THE RECORD BUT WILL BE NOTED AMONG THOSE WHO 14 ARE HERE. 15 THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT. 16 (APPLAUSE) 17 (THE HEARING WAS ADJOURNED AT 9:05 O'CLOCK P.M.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ------- |