UNITED STATES
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
VOLUME I
Priday, May 5, 1978
The Ramada Inn South
St. Petersburg, Florida
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1 MR. ELKINS: Good morning. Welcome to the
2 hearing being conducted by the United States
3 Environmental Protection Agency on motorcycle noise.
4 I want to welcome each of you here. Glad you were
able to come. And I think we will hear some very
6 interesting testimony this morning. And this
7 afternoon, we’ll be here until as late as anyone wants
8 to tell us anything, perhaps as late as 9:00 o’clock
9 tonight, or even later.
10 This is the second of three hearings which
11 we’re holding on this subject. We’re holding these
12 hearings not because Congress told us to hold them,
13 or any other reason, but simply because we want to get
14 the best possible advice we can about what to do about
15 motorcycle noise. This is important, because this
16 rule which we have proposed and are now taking comment
17 on will have impact on many people: the manufacturers
18 the people who use motorcycles, and it also requires
19 for its full effectiveness to have the full
20 cooperation of State and local agencies.
21 So we need to have comment from all of these
22 groups, so that we can see whether we’re heading in
23 the right direction, and if we are, whether we have
24 written the rule in such a way that it can be fair
25 and be effective. As you cane in this morning, I hope
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you were informed how you can order a copy of the
2 transcript, if you would like to. There’s an order
3 form with all the details on that. If you have any
4 questions, we’ll be glad to answer you with regard to
5 that.
6 We will be asking the witnesses today to
7 try to limit themselves to ten or fifteen minutes.
8 We will then have questions from the panel, and we
9 will try to have enough time -- I’m sure we will --
10 to encourage people who have come and who have not
ii earlier indicated they’d like to speak, to be able to
12 have the time to do so.
13 And if you would like to say something, if
14 you know you’d like to speak, if you already know,
15 then you can now inform the people who met you at the
16 desk when you came in. If, during the meeting, you
17 decide that you would like to say a few words, just
]8 go back there and inform them, and they’ll let me
19 know, and we’ll be glad to fit you in.
20 And I’m sure those of you who are formally
21 scheduled for testimony will be glad to be willing to
-- I hope you will -- to allow these people to be fit
23 in at various times during the schedule. It is very
24 important that we hear from everyone. So I want to
25 encourage both those who wrote in and told us they
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i wanted to testify, and those who have just come today,
2 to also have the opportunity.
3 1 want to make one announcement with regard
4 to one of the witnesses today. EPA has paid the
5 travel expenses of Dr. John Fletcher, one of the
6 witnesses to the hearing today. I want to make that
7 announcement on the record, because it’s important
8 that it be known. We felt that it was important for
9 Dr. Fletcher to provide his testimony to the record.
10 He is from Tennessee, and it’s important that he be
11 able to come, and so we did pay his travel expenses.
12 I really don’t know what he plans to say, so I hope
13 we had no influence over what he would say, but simply’
14 to ask him to be able to come and put his testimony
15 on the record.
16 This afternoon, this hearing will be
17 broadcast on the radio. This is a first, I think,
18 for any Federal hearing that we are aware of, because
19 at the end of the afternoon we will be taking call-in
20 comments, and perhaps questions, but mainly comments,
21 I hope, from the radio audience. This is an attempt
22 on our part to try to reach those who could not be
here physically, to have them tell us what they think
24 we might do, or give their comments.
25 I would say in that regard that we will,
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when the people call, the calls will be answered in
2 the back room here, and they will be asked to give
3 their name and their address, and that will be part
of the formal record of the hearing. Then when we
5 put the person on the actual radio, to give their
6 comments, they may or may not wish to give their name
and address. It is our feeling that so long as we
8 have it in the formal record, That would be acceptable
9 and so I will ask them to give their name, but if they
10 choose not to, we will go ahead and take their
11 testimony in any case, because we will have it
12 recorded prior to the time that they go on the radio.
13 We have what may appear to be a very large
14 group of peop’.e sitting up here at the front. I hope
15 that we will not look too imposing. Normally, when
16 Federal agencies hold hearings, they appoint one
17 person to go and go out, and he sits at a table and
18 hears all the testimony, and then he comes back to
19 Washington and reports to all the rest of us and tells
20 us what took place.
21 A great deal gets lost in the transmission
22 in those kinds of situations, because he’s only one
23 person, and he has to digest a great deal, and it’s
24 asking a great deal for someone to read through a
25 whole case’s testimony in order to know what went on.
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So we have adopted the approach of bringing to the
2 hearing all those people who will be directly involved
3 in making the final decisions, on the basis that they
4 should hear the witnesses, they should be able to ask
5 clarifying questions and whatever, so that they fully
6 understand what the views were.
7 So although it looks like a lot of people
here, I hope that you won’t find it too imposing, an
9 it’s not the Supreme Court or anything like that. We
simply want to involve the people who really will be
11 making the decisions when we go back to our offices.
12 At this point, I would like to introduce the panel.
13 I’m Charles Elkins. I’m Director of the
14 Noise Control Office in EPA. On my right is Henry
15 Thomas, who within that office is in charge of the
16 Division of Standards and Regulations. On his right
17 is Scott Edwards, who is the primary author of the
18 document which is the subject of this hearing. He’s
19 the Project Officer on Motorcycle Noise Regulation.
And on his right is Ron Naveen, who represents the
21 General Counsel’s Office of the Federal Environmental
22 Protection Agency, working on, among other things,
23 noise control. On my left is Richard Kozioweki, who
24 is Director of the Division for Noise Enforcement,
25 charged with the responsibility of enforchig this and
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1 other noise regulations. And on his left is Jim Kerr,
2 Project Officer in Mr. Kozlowski’s office, concerned
with the motorcycle noise regulation.
4 Let me say a few words before we turn to
5 our first witness, who will be Robert Jones from
6 Hilisborough County, about the regulation that we have
7 in front of us today. EPA has the authority to
8 control noise from new products. This means that we
9 can require manufacturers to engineer noise control
10 into their products, so that as they come off the
11 assembly line they are quieter than they are today.
12 This rule which we have before us for
13 motorcycle noise requires Street motorcycles and
14 off-road motorcycles to be quieter, be made quieter
15 over a period of years, and in 1985 EPA has projected
16 benefits to be on the order of the quieting of about
17 55 to 757. over today’s levels, with possible increase
18 of 7 to 107. in cost. These are facts which, among
19 others, we are asking witnesses to comment on. I’m
20 just saying what we have indicated in our background
21 document.
22 We also have the authority to require
23 manufacturers of replacement exhausts to produce their
24 exhaust systems in a quieter way than they are now,
25 and we have also proposed that these exhaust systems,
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as well as the motorcycles, be labeled, to encourage
2 enforcement at the State and local level. So we are
here today to learn, are motorcycles a problem,
EPA regulate them, should we do it in a different way
than we have proposed, what role would the State and
6 local programs play, have we made it easier for them
or not, and essentially what suggestions would all of
8 you have for us?
9 Now, we’ll turn to our first witness, who
10 is Robert Jones of Hilisborough County. Mr. Jones,
ii you may do as you wish here. You may stand at the
12 podium, or if you feel more comfortable, sit at the
13 table. There are microphones at either place. So
14 take your choice, sir.
15 MR. JONES: Maybe I can spread my papers
16 easier at the table.
17 MR. ELKINS: Fine.
18 MR. JONES: First off, I would like to
19 apologize for not having a copy of this. I was busy
20 last night preparing it. So if you’ll bear with me,
21 I’ll try to read through sleepy eyes.
22 MR. ELKINS: All right.
23 MR. JONES: My name is Robert M. Jones.
24 My legal address is 6102 Liberty Avenue, Temple
25 Terrace, Florida. I am employed by the Hilisborough
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i County Environmental Protection Commission as an
2 Environmental Specialist, and I am head of the
3 Complaint Section of our agency.
4 In a report from the EPA to the President
5 and Congress on noise in 1972, noise was defined as
6 any loud sound that may produce an undesired
7 physiological or psychological effect in an individual
8 or group. Certain noises can cause damage to the
9 inner ear. But the samples of noise, the rider was
10 or could be subjected to was very close to 2470 DBA
11 as stated in the Federal Register, no effect on
12 hearing loss, but this 2470, if it is extrapolated on
13 the roadside, can interfere with spoken communications
14 and the enjoyment of home life, wha’ever a person may
15 be doing. It can disturb and prevent sleep.
16 EPA has also said that noise levels above
17 LD-55 can do the same thing, interfere with all the
18 above. If we took the LQ-2470 and used the hours
19 between 10:00 P.M. and 6:00 A.H. by adding the
20 10 decibels, we certainly would be quite a bit above
21 what EPA is striving for in the National Strategy for
22 Noise Control published April, 1977. In that
publication, in Section 4, 1 quote:
24 Congress has stated that the general goal in
2S the Noise Control Act, which we suggest for the entire
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noise control effort, reference this general goal in
2 the Noise Control Act, 1972, Section 2, as follows:
To promote an environment for all persons free from
4 noise that jeopardizes their health and welfare.
5 In order to achieve this general goal,
6 specific goals are based on our knowledge of what
7 levels of noise jeopardizes health and welfare.
8 Specific goals are recommended. And under Paragraph C
9 it states that through vigorous regulatory and
planning actions, reduce environmental noise levels
11 to LDN-65 or lower, and concurrently, reduce noise
12 annoyance and related activity interference, caused
13 by intrusive noises. And that is what we’re here for
14 today.
15 Noise from motorcycles is truly an irritant
16 to the hearing or to the receptor. I have ridden
17 motorcycles in the past, and my older brother rode
18 them up to a couple of years ago. When he rode, it
19 was like the Devil was on his coattails, too. He
20 once made a remark to me that has stuck in my mind
21 for a long time. He said that if the police were ever
to catch him, they would have to see him, because they
23 would never hear him.
24 For a man to run up and down the freeways
25 at speeds in excess of 100 miles an hour, and never
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get caught, his remark made sense. For instance, he
2 went to the motorcycle races in Daytona, and from
3 Daytona to my house, which is Temple Terrace -- the
4 Highway Patrol can verify this as really moving in
85 minutes. So he rode them fast, but nobody ever
6 heard him. He was quiet.
7 Now, if he can run that fast and quiet,
8 what is to stop the bikes today from being fast and
9 quiet. It has been said, because of the size of the
10 motorcycle, there is no room to hang a good muffler
on it. It takes as much room to hang a bad one. It
12 is time engineers got together and beat this problem.
13 I have faith in the American ingenuity,
14 that it can b corrected. It seems to me as if noise
15 from the engines that boost the jumbo jets effectually
16 through the air can be quieted, it should not be a
17 major problem to quiet a 170 cc engine to below what
18 is proposed. I cannot believe that doing something
19 like that is going to put the small businessman on
20 the rocks, as the Federal Register said it might do.
21 As a general rule, we here in the Sunshine
State enjoy year-round outdoor activity. We also
23 have high temperature, along with high humidity.
24 Maybe you got a sample of some of that yesterday.
25 So we learn to like our air conditioners. Someone
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told us there was an energy crisis, so the power
2 companies went up on what they charged for electricity
When the electric bill equaled the mortgage payments,
we opened windows to let the air flow through.
5 Noise from the trail bikes became very apparent then.
6 You see, a closed house doesn’t let all the noise in.
7 But open the house, and you become irritated by the
noise.
9 Now, the question, should the receptor pay
10 the bill for quiet in his own home? Or should the
ii source of the noise be required to pay? It will cost
12 the rider a bit more for his bike if the proper
13 muffling is done. I wonder if the proposal of not to
14 exceed 83 DBA in 1980, to 78 DBA in 1985, is low
15 enough to really conform with the desires of Congress
16 as set forth in Section 2 of the Noise Control Act.
17 That is a point of interest.
Our County Commissioners recently set a
19 limit of 78 DBA on the new residential property line
20 for racetrack noise. The nearest resident is across
21 the street. This 78 DB is when the race is in
progress. But yet the proposal before us today has
23 83 DBA in 1980. This is license to pollute. If
24 Harley-Davison can meet the noise requirements of
25 Florida, California and the City of Detroit, what
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1 keeps others then from meeting that standard in the
other 48 states?
3 I have listened to many people pleading for
help in the problem of motorcycle noise. I can safely
say the majority of the street bikes in our County
6 are fairly quiet, and I can thank the State for that.
7 It is the trail bikes that are causing a hardship in
8 our area.
9 I am an RVer, a good Sammer, if you know
10 what that is. Most of the campgrounds I go to
11 prohibit motorcycles and trail bikes. There must be
12 a good reason for it, if they’re in the business to
13 make money. I would urge this panel to look closely
at what Florida and California have for motorcycle
15 DB standards. I believe the proposal is too high to
16 start in 1980.
17 I heartily concur with the provisions of
the proposal. This will be a great tool in
enforcement on the local level. The No-Tampering
20 proposal is an excellent idea. Just this week, a
21 rider told me he could remove his muffler, or modify
22 it, then replace the approved system for the annual
23 State inspection, pass it, and then go on home and
24 modify it again. The No-Tampering label would put a
25 stop to this practice. I would heartily endorse that.
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i I think it is a good working tool.
2 It is not the intent of our agency, nor
your agency, to stop people from riding motorbikes.
We feel that if we can correct the gross noisemakers,
5 roughly the top 107., we would have a much more
6 pleasant world to live in, where they can do their
thing without causing an interference to us while we
8 do our thing.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. ELKINS: Thank you, Mr. Jones. If you
ii would allow us to ask you some questions. We will
12 first turn to Mr. Thomas. Do you have any questions?
13 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Jones, you are with the
14 County or City government in Hi lsborough?
15 MR. JONES: The County government.
16 MR. THOMAS: County government. Are you
17 familiar with how noise complaints are handled within
18 the County?
MR. JONES: Yes, sir. They come to me.
20 MR. THOMAS: I’d like to ask you how you
21 handle those complaints, if you would, what your
process is when you get it in, all the way through
23 the various exercises.that you might go through to
24 satisfy those complaints.
25 JONES: Most of the noise complaints
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we can handle very readily, but for the motorcycle
complaints we’re in a different ball game completely.
The reason I say that, gentlemen, is that the
4 complaints about the motorbikes being ridden after
5 school, after hours, so on and so forth. The rest of
6 the public expects me to be at work at 8:00 o’clock
7 in the morning. So consequently, we are tied down
8 to from 8:00 to whatever, we’ll say, sunset, and
9 sunset now is around 9:00 o’clock. That makes a long
10 day.
11 It’s really utter frustration when you get
12 right down to it, because the people complain, and
13 they see a white County car drive up, and they
14 scatter like chaff to the winds. We, in our agency,
15 have no arrest powers. We cannot write them a ticket
16 to haul them to court. That is the way our law is
17 written. That is the way we have been operating for
18 nearly ten years, a little over ten years. And
sometimes it can be frustrating.
When we do catch the man, we tell him what
21 the rules and regulations are. We get name and
22 address. We talk to the parents. Sometimes these are
23 younger kids. In fact, I had one woman actually give
24 me a hug and a kiss because I got her son for riding
25 a noisy motorbike. And I met with papa. Papa said,
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i “Well, if that’s what the law is, we’ll do it,” And
it was corrected.
3 But catching them is the hard thing. I
4 have tried to get the Sheriff’s Department to give us
5 a hand on this, but the Sheriff’s Department:, from
6 what response I get from the irritated citizens, that
7 the deputies say that we don’t even have a noise rule
8 in Hilisborough County. So I have to sit down with
9 the Sheriff’s Department and explain to them just what
10 we do have. It is frustrating.
11 MR. THOMAS: Thank you,
12 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards.
13 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Jones, you said that a
14 large part of the problem in Hilisborough County is
15 with trail motorcycles?
16 MR. JONES: Yes.
MR. EDWARDS: Could you give us a little
18 more description of where these motorcycles are used
that cause the problem?
20 MR. JONES: Most of them are used in the
21 fringe urban areas and in the suburban areas.
Hillsborough County is sprawled out over 1,040 square
23 miles of land mass. We have three people patrolling
24 that area for everything in the way of pollution - -
25 air, water, noise, you name it, we do it. There are
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i certain areas such as Town & Country, where they ride
the motorbikes after school at Webb Junior High School,
3 which is a very irritating thing. But when the police
come around, and/or when we come around, the kids
5 scatter. Some places out in the rural areas where it
6 is extremely quiet and the kids come around there and
7 decide to make a racetrack. It’s everywhere.
8 MR. EDWARDS: Now, the police officers have
9 authority for issuing citations?
10 MR. JONES: They don’t do it, and I’ll tell
11 you why they don’t. And I can sympathize with them
12 in this respect. Much has been said in the past about
13 police harassment. Can you imagine what a deputy
14 would feel like, or what his response would be --
15 because this has actually been told to me -- “Why do
16 you pick on my kid with the noisy motorbike? Why
17 don’t you go pick on the robbers and the rapers and
18 the murderers, and leave my kid alone?” And the
deputies are frustrated, also.
20 MR. EDWARDS: Are these motorcycles the
21 extremely loud, perhaps competition motorcycles, or
22 perhaps off-road motorcycles, that nevertheless are
23 quite loud?
24 IfR., JONES: Those are -- these are the ones
the little kids ride, that they take the mufflers off,
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the spark arresters off, and they say, “Look how loud
2 I am.”
3 MR. EDWARDS: Were these motorcycles too
loud when they were originally sold?
5 MR. JONES: Definitely. This is why I say
6 the labeling and the no-tampering is a very fine
enforcement tool.
8 MR. EDWARDS: If EPA, as proposed, requires
9 these motorcycles to be quieter when originally sold,
10 will this solve the problem, or will this -- ?
11 MR. JONES: I won’t say it will solve the
12 problem, but it will certainly help the problem.
13 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. On another line, on
14 the Street motorcycles, you sort of made two points.
15 One is that you feel that EPA is not going far enough
16 in its proposal for the street motorcycles. On the
17 other hand, you felt that it was sort of the top 107.
18 of motorcycles, loud motorcycles in Hilisborough
19 County that is causing the most problem. It seems to
20 me like that is kind of - - without being argumentative
21 - - it seems like that is kind of a dichotomy, in that
on one hand you say EPA getting motorcycles down
23 below passenger cars is not enough, and on the other
24 hand you say, well, some motorcycles are quiet enough
25 already, let’s go after the really loud ones.
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i MR. JONES: There is a study that has been
made for the growth of motorcycles in relation to
people, population, in Hillsborough and Pinellas
4 County, from 1976 to 1999, I think it was. This was
5 on the hydrocarbon matter that we have. And it shows
6 the growth at the rate of one motorcycle for every
7 66.6 people.
8 With the Tampa Bay area, including the
9 counties around the Bay area, experiencing one of the
10 fastest growth rates in people, we also expect one of
ii the fastest growth rates in motorcycles. Consequently
12 the street bikes could also become a problem if
13 they’re not properly controlled.
14 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Jones, thank you very much
15 for answering my questions.
16 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Naveen.
17 MR. NAVEEN: I have no questions for this
18 witness.
19 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kozlowski.
20 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Jones, I’d like to
21 follow up on something Mr. Edwards was saying. We’ve
22 heard from witnesses in California. We had three
23 days of hearings out in California. We heard from
24 witnesses in the State and local, the after-market
25 industry, the motorcycle manufacturers, and from
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private citizens who said that if you don’t have
2 effective enforcement, you don’t have any motorcycle
3 control at all. And I note from your remarks that
4 enforcement is going to be very difficult.
5 First, would you agree that if you don’t
6 have effective enforcement for noisy bikes, -- and
7 usually because they’re modified or used improperly --
8 does it make any sense to tie down the regulations?
9 And secondly -- well, answer that first. Then I’ll
10 ask the second one.
11 MR. JONES: Any law that is a law of any
12 kind should be able to be enforced. I have written
13 to my director, Roger Stewart, that I feel that we
14 should have arrest powers, and that we should also
15 change our hours of operation to control the
16 motorcycle noise problem. So far, he hasn’t really
17 acted on it, but I have put that into a memo to him.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: Is there any way the Federal
19 government could assist local counties in developing
20 an effective enforcement plan?
21 MR. JONES: I feel that the labeling and
22 the tampering provisions, where they are actually
23 posted on the motorbike itself, says that -- the
24 manufacturer says that his motorbike will not put out
25 any more than X number of decibels on a stationary
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i test at so many feet. I have a precision sound-level
meter. If it puts out more, he’s in violation. I
3 give him a ticket, fix it or else. Yes, I think it
4 would help.
5 MR. KOZLOWSKI: You think that will help?
MR. JONES: Yes, I really do.
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: And the Sheriff’s deputies
will be able to deal with the irate mothers?
9 MR. JONES: I think so.
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you.
11 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
12 MR. KERR: One question, Mr. Jones. You
13 stated that you approved of the labeling concept that
14 we have in the regulations. How would you pick up on
15 that program? Would you be doing spot-checks on the
16 street?
17 MR. JONES: Yes.
IS MR. KERR: Or would you be doing periodic
19 inspections?
20 MR. JONES: Spot-checks. In other words,
21 we have somebody that is complaining, it’s --
motorcycles are like the race cars, you can pick up
23 the one noisy race car running around and around the
21 track. If you black-flag him, the rest of them can
25 run with no problem at all. Same way with motbrcycles
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If you get the one man who is out there irritating
2 everybody else, and jump on him with both feet and
make it stick, the rest of them will comply.
4 MR. KERR: One other question. Would you
5 propose to do your enforcement, this spot-check
6 enforcement, using a sound-level meter, or simply by
7 making a comparison, looking at the information on
8 the label, simply comparing that to the information
9 that is on the muffler design for this motorcycle?
10 Which way would you be doing it?
11 MR. JONES: As I understand what you are
12 proposing, it makes no difference how they modify the
13 thing, providing it does not make more noise than
14 originally manufactured. This is correct, isn’t it?
15 MR. KERR: That’s correct.
16 MR. JONES: So he can put on any kind of
17 muffler he wants on that thing, provided he does not
18 exceed the X number of decibels that the manufacturer
says that he can do. Now, if he cranks the machine
up, and I stand so many feet away from that thing,
21 and he is within the limits, it’s not annoying, you
22 go out and have fun. But if it’s not within the
23 limits, then we have a tool that we can crack him over
24 the head with.
25 MR. KERR: So you would need a number there
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that you could compare his actual noise emissions
against in order to determine compliance?
3 MR. JONES: Yes.
4 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Jones, one of our concerns
5 was that a local community might want to pass an
6 ordinance that says that you cannot use a motorcycle
7 within the city limits or the county limits on which
8 you have installed a muffler which is not labeled to
9 be, as appropriate to be used on that kind of
10 motorcycle. Do you think that the local community
11 might want to have an ordinance such as that, so that
12 you can merely look at the label on the muffler, look
13 at the label on the motorcycle, compare them, and if
14 they match, the person is in compliance with the local
15 ordinance? If they do not match, that he is out of
16 compliance, no matter what the sound level might be
17 from that motorcycle?
im. JONES: No, I wouldn’t say no matter
19 what kind of a muffler that he would have, as long as
20 j conformed with the standard that is put out for
21 that particular bike. Years. ago, when we were trying
22 to get the noise rule passed, everybody says, “Let’s
23 wait for EPA.” The truck rule was the first one.
24 And 80 I wrote EPA, and I can’t remember who answered
25 the letter, but this has been years ago, and they said
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they were interested in the interstate truck travel.
2 We have a tremendous amount of intrastate
3 travel around here, with our concrete mixers, our
rock trucks, our gravel trucks, everything around here
s except phosphate, and a good bit of that moved by
6 truck. So EPA says, “You control that noise.” Well,
that got off the point.
8 But I feel that if EPA comes out with a
good rule on noise, labeling, tampering, things of
10 this matter, that we can, without a lot of hassle,
through our Commission, get this incorporated into
12 our noise rule. I think we would have a working tool
13 that we could enforce readily.
14 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Jones, I gather you are in
15 charge of trying to deal with all the complaints that
16 come in to the County on environmental problems, is
17 that right?
18 R. JONES: Yes, sir.
19 MR. ELKThS: What percentage of those are
20 noise complaints? Is noise a small problem in the
21 County?
22 MR. JONES: Noise consists of about 10 to
23 127. of the total amount of complaints that we receive
24 in Hillsborough County. We have a tremendous amount
25 of water. We get a lot of water complaints. We have
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i the, I guess -- pardon me, Jacksonville -- but one of
2 the most heavily industrialized areas. Within Tampa,
we have a lot of air complaints. We have two jet
4 bases, MacDill and Tampa International, and people
5 complain about those. But I tell them I can’t do
6 anything about it. These type of complaints, I don’t
7 really log.
But 107 of the noise complaints pertain to
9 gross motorcycle noise. Now, this is documented. I
10 would safely say -- and I think I can say this without
ii reservation -- that of all the noise complaints that
12 come in, 507. of them pertain to motorcycles. And the
13 reason I don’t write them all up, one person calls up
14 about one motorcycle, well, he’s here today, gone
15 tomorrow. But where they ride them continually is
16 when these type are written up and actually logged in.
17 MR. ELKINS: Any more questions?
18 MR. EDWARDS: Yes.
MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards.
20 MR. EDWARDS: Just to perhaps clarify, if
21 any clarification is necessary -- in your discussion
22 with Mr. Kerr, the labeled number chat goes on the
23 frame of the motorcycle is not a Federal standard,
24 and it is not ‘considered to be tampering under the
25 Noise Control Act unless an operator modifies his
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1 motorcycle so as to exceed EPA standards as defined
by the moving test.
3 Now, the number that is on the frame is the
4 stationary value that the manufacturer measured back
in the plant, and it represents the 90 percentile of
6 a distribution, so it should not be interpreted as,
7 gee, if he’s one decibel over that number, that is a
8 violation of Federal law. It is there as a tool for
9 local enforcement officials to use as they see
10 appropriate. EPA will be in discussions with them to
11 discuss appropriate uses of it, to detect tampering
12 violations and gross deterioration.
13 MR. JONES: I think if anybody read a sound-
14 level meter in the ambient, and it was over 1 DB,
15 he’s got rocks in his head.
16 MR. EDWARDS: It is for use for exactly the
17 way you are intending. I think that’s great. Thank
18 you very much.
19 MR. ELKINS: Thank you, very much, Mr. Jones
20 We appreciate your testimony. Thank you for being
21 here.
22 We’ll hear next from Mr. Marty Schwebel,
23 Orange County. At least, I think we will, if he’s
24 here.
25 FROM THE FLOOR: He had to drive over from
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1 Orlando. He may not be here yet.
MR. ELKINS: Okay. Is Mr. Bowman from
3 Gainesville here? Mr. Bowman has a long way to drive
4 today, and we’ll let you get on early in the morning
5 here. Glad to have you.
6 MR. BOWMAN: Appreciate your switching me.
7 We had a little storm up our way yesterday afternoon,
8 and I want to go home and see if my house is still
9 there.
10 My name is Norman 3. Bowman, and I’m the
11 Director of the Department of Community Development
12 for the City of Gainesville. Gainesville, as some of
13 you might know, is a residentially oriented community,
14 primarily centered around the University of Florida.
15 As such, we have a number of students that do bring
16 both off-road and on-road motorcycles as their main
17 mode of transportation.
18 We are not, as Tampa is, blessed with a
great deal of industry, so our ambic nt noise level
20 would be considerably less than Tempa’s wo .ild be.
2! My responsibility is not as an engineer, nor as a
noise expert. My job is the Director of the
23 enforcement agency for all of our codes and ordinances.
Gainesville does have at the present time an
25 adopted noise ordinance which we do enforce on a
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1 complaint basis only, and as Mr. Jones from Tampa
indicated, it does present a very frustrating
3 experience when we get into the motorcycle arena. We
find that the students do customize their bikes for
5 many reasons, but they do, and it seems that
6 inevitably the customization results in an extreme
7 noise increase.
8 We find that the bikes just in normal
9 running are noisy. It is probably to the point now
io where people no longer complain because there’s very
ii little we can do. They’re gone and down the street
12 before they can even get to the telephone. So we
13 commend you for attempting to do something for the
14 local communities that are faced with this problem at
15 the grassroots, down in the trenches, and my comments
16 will be not at the regulations themselves, but the
17 problems that I would envision as an enforcement
18 agency in trying to grapple with how you enforce this
thing, if it ever is passed, as you are proposing.
I would strongly urge that if you are going
21 to propose something like this, there be some kind of
22 a carrot somewhere in the bag of tricks. Otherwise,
23 the locals are not going to find a great deal. of
24 enthusiasm to buy the expensive monitoring equipment,
put on additional manpower, and make a serious effort
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1 to enforce the program.
2 I envision this to involve monitoring
3 stations, at least a mobile monitoring station
4 arrangement, so that you would be able to spot-check
the bikes as they do go by. And of course, this takes
6 money. Our monitoring equipment is mobile, but it
7 really is involved with rather sensitive calibration,
8 and it’s aimed at fixed noise, primarily --
construction equipment, what limited manufacturing
10 we have -- rather than moving noise, or noise from
11 trucks or other kinds of moving equipment.
12 So I envision that we would have to acquire
13 some new equipment, hire additional manpower, to
14 spot-check, and the way the regulations are written,
15 I can envision as many different kinds of local
16 ordinances as there are cities, at least, in Florida.
17 I would strongly urge that there be some
18 manual or some model that will give local communities
19 that might be totally new in the enforcement business
20 a handle on how to go out and at least read the labels
21 I do agree that this form, some form of allowing
22 enforcement officers a quick way to visualize, just by
23 looking at the bike, whether it’s been tampered with.
24 Now, I don’t know how to do that, but that
2 would seem to me, if we have someone who is not very
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sophisticated in this kind of activity, that if he
could look at some kind of a seal or some kind of a
label or something, that very quickly it would tell
4 him, hey, this has been tampered with since it was
acquired.
I don’t see the process of running a bike
7 through the vehicle inspection station, like we do
8 our cars, as any solution at all. I think as was
9 previously stated, if you can tamper with it, you can
10 put it back together and get by that activity without
ii much trouble. The second area, I think, that we are
12 confronted with -- and I would suspect that most
13 communities in Florida are confronted with the same
14 situation -- florida does not have a Municipal Court
15 system.
16 All of our courts are handled through either
17 the County or District Court system. Therefore, we
18 must present ourselves to the State’s Attorney’s
19 Office, and this starts to be kind of a difficult
problem, if there is a contest of the citation. We
2L don’t have police powers, any more than Tampa does.
22 We cannot arrest someone for violating the ordinance.
23 So we must almost prove a criminal case on a noise
24 violation.
25 So that if there is going to be some
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assistance to the various states as to how we overcome
2 these kinds of enforcement problems, at what level do
we prosecute these violators? I guess what I’m saying
is that if we’re going to mean business, it’s got to
be enforced. There has to be some monetary support and
6 some technical, assistance in some form, of a
7 monitoring manual, and re emphasize the antitampering
8 techniques that might be devised. And with that, I’J
9 be happy to try to answer any questions you might have
10 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. We’ll
ii start with Mr. Kozlowski.
12 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Bowman, in your
13 experienCe, are modified bikes the problem?
14 MR. BOWMAN: I would say o. And just
is acceleration of the normal bikes. But that is very
16 brief. It is the modified bike, and they’re primarily
17 young people. We have a lot of hills and creek beds
18 and so on that they enjoy riding on, and once they
19 leave that, they’re back on the road, and we have a
lot of hills in our neighborhoods, and they’re
21 competing with the skateboards.
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Which don’t make any noise
23 at all.
24 MR. BOWMAN: Except when the kids run into
25 each other.
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1 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Do you think the agency
2 would be better served to regulate modified bikes
3 first, get the State and local program going, before
4 it squeezes down the new bikes? Or should it do so
5 concurrently?
6 MR. BOWMAN: I think it ought to be done
concurrently.
8 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Reason, sir?
9 MR. BOWMAN: Well, I think it’s only
10 equitable they all be treated the same. If it’s easy
to modify -- and apparently it is -- I’m not a
12 motorbike rider -- it certainly would seem to me that
13 at the source of production that ease should not
14 present any serious problems.
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Are noise violations
16 misdemeanorS?
17 MR. BOWMAN: In the sense that the ordinance
18 calls them a misdemeanor. However, in prosecuting
19 through the court system -- as all of our ordinances
20 must be prosecuted ultimately -- we have to have
21 almost the same level of evidence as you would in a
22 criminal trial. So that if there was a serious
23 challenge tO the ordinance, under a noise ordinance,
24 -- this is not, you know, a traveling violation --
25 we would have to go to the State Attorney’s Office,
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file an information, and go through this normal
procedure of jury trial, if the individual wishes it.
We experienced this same process with a very noisy
4 machine in an insulation plant, and ultimately it was
5 just like a criminal trial.
6 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I ’d like to point out, too,
7 something EPA is doing, and then ask a question. You
8 said that EPA would have to provide some sort of
o guidance -- i.e., training for local policemen, how
to enforce noise violations. We, in fact, are doing
ii that, We are developing a training program now, and
12 with an agreement with the International Brotherhood
13 of Police Officers, it will be offered to all new
14 police officers, beginning next year, I think, as soon
15 as we get our program developed.
16 So it’s conceivable in the future years that
17 many, if not all, police officers will have some
18 noise enforcement training, and take care of some of
19 those problems you discussed earlier. In California,
20 when we had our hearings out there, we spoke to a
21 number of police officers, as well as State and County
22 officials, and one police officer made what I thought
23 was a revelation -- and again, police work is not
24 intended to be taxing -- it is not revenue -- but he
25 pointed out that the number of citations he issued and
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the number of fines that were thereby collected on
those citations more than covered the cost of his and
his partner’s salary, the equipment he needed, the
4 automobile he used, and then there was some left over.
5 Now, I don’t know if that would work in a
6 small area. California is very densely populated,
with a lot of motorcycles. But the point is, is that
8 with an effective program, and using his words, “that
we pay for ourselves,” you wouldn’t have to have any
10 extra revenue. And I merely repeat that testimony
‘ 11 for your benefit, not to take any stand on it, just
12 repeating it.
13 Also, I want to point out that the noise
monitoring equipment need not be all that expensive.
15 The thought of the Federal Government going out and
16 giving every county in the country equipment is one
17 that boggles my mind. I don’t know what the total
18 cost would be. But it would be a very difficult thing
19 logistically, I would think. In some cases, it may
make sense. But I don’t think that it would be that
21 expensive for a county to buy its own noise meter, a
22 couple of hundred dollars, an effective system. A
‘23 real effective system wouldn’t cost you more than a
24 couple of thousand dollars, which I know is not
25 peanuts, but --
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MR. BOWMAN: I would Just point out that we
2 have two pieces of equipment. Each one cost in excess
of eight hundred.
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Is that right? Type 2
5 meters?
6 MR. BOWMAN: As I say, I’m not a noise
7 engineer. I can just tell you what the cost is. One
8 is being repaired in Connecticut. It’s over $250 to
9 repair it?
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That’s true.
11 MR. BOWMAN: So it can be very expensive.
12 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. Thank you, sir.
13 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
14 MR. KERR: I have no questions.
15 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Thomas.
16 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Bowman, in the Gainesville
17 area, which you represent, do you have areas
18 designated for off-road bike riding, for trail bikers
19 and these kinds of things, places where they can --
20 where the youngsters can go and ride the bikes, the
21 kind of bikes you are talking about, in the kind of
22 situations that we heard from Mr. Jones about before?
MR. BOWMAN: Not in the corporate limits.
24 There are several loader crosses that are within
25 several miles of the city limits. But we have
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1 sufficient natural terrain, that it is much more
2 attractive and much closer, and also much more illegal
a MR. TUOMAS: And much more illegal, did you
say?
MR. BOWMAN: Yes, sir.
6 MR. THOMAS: Are the kind of bikes that give
you the problem here -- now, I’m not talking
s necessarily about the modified bikes, I’m talking abou
9 trail bikes and off-road bikes, which can be pretty
10 noisy themselves sometimes -- are they sold by
11 motorcycle dealers in Gainesville?
12 MR. BOWMAN: I really don’t know.
13 MR. THOMAS: Well, that makes it difficult
14 for me to ask you the next question, but I’m going to
15 ask it, anyway, if you don’t mind. In asking this
16 kind of question of some of the City officials we
17 talked to in California, the question that I had for
18 them was, if they’re selling these bikes in the city
limits, and there’s not a designated area where folks
20 ride them -- in fact, just the opposite, you can’t
21 ride them, because there is not a designated area --
22 and if there’s not a designated area, it’s illegal --
23 are the dealers, the folks retailing these bikes to
24 the good parents who are raking care of their
:25 youngsters, or the youngster who saved up h18 money,
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1 worked hard for it and bought one of these bikes --
2 are they helping the City by informing them where you
a can ride the bike and where you can’t?
4 Now, if they’re just retailing the systems
5 out there, retailing the bikes, knowing that there’s
6 no place these youngsters can ride the bike, arid then
7 you get a parent who buys one, or a youngster, and
the only way they can get that bike to a place that
9 they could rIde it is to buy a trailer or a van or
10 pickup, and maybe they don’t have that 1 then the only
11 way to get it there is to ride it there; and it seems
12 to me that that may just be part of the problem.
13 Now, I don’t know about Gainesville, but I
14 wonder if I could ask you, as representing Gainesville
15 maybe if you all could take a look at what your
16 dealers are doing in the City area, and let us know
17 whether or not they’re part of the problem or part of
18 the solution.
MR. BOWMAN: i’ll be happy to. I really
20 don’t know. As I say, I don’t ride bikes. I don’t
21 allow my kids to ride bikes. I think it’s a death
22 trap. But that’s not what we’re here for. I’ll be
23 happy to check.
24 MR. THOMAS: I’d appreciate it if you could
25 take the time to do that, and drop us a line and let
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us know. Thank you.
2 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards, do you have any
3 questions?
4 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Bowman, I’d like to focus
5 just for a moment here on the problem of juveniles
6 modifying motorcycles, and parental responsibility.
7 If you set aside for a second the problem of how do
8 you catch these folks -- let’s say you’ve got one, a
9 repeat offender -- and set aside your problems of
10 getting cases prosecuted. Let’s say you have got a
11 case you want to prosecute. Whose responsibility is
12 it, if it’s a fourteen-year-old repeatedly modifying
13 his motorcycle and bothering his neighbors?
14 MR. BOWMAN: It would only be my judgment,
15 because we have never gotten to that point. I would
16 presume in the State of Florida, anyone under eighteen
17 is the responsibility of the parents, so it would be
18 a dual suit, if we ever got to that point. We don’t
19 really know how old some of these kids are. 1 ’lorida
20 requires a helmet, and most of them do wear them, even
21 when they’re sneaking over the back forty. They
really move. They’re up over the hill and gone, and
23 by that time the telephone is ringing.
24 We now have the cooperation of a lot of the
2S private property owners, that these kids are actually
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trespassing on their lands. We’re getting a heavy
2 posting, and what’s really happening is we’re moving
them from the City to the County, and they’re
4 beginning to get -- the problem is the urbanization
is moving further south, so again, some uniformity of
6 enforcement, whether it be in the coturnunities or in
the counties surrounding the communities, if everyone
a is doing it the same, some form of public education
9 would then be much easier.
10 What we do in the City might be difficult
ii in the County, and where they allow them on legal
12 paths or legal tracks is much different than in the
13 City. But to answer your question, I would suspect
14 of they’re under eighteen, that we’d take all the
15 parents with us.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Surely, parents realize when
17 the youngster takes the muffler off and is making an
18 incredible amount of noise, they must realize he’s
19 got to be bothering somebody, you know, in a densely
20 populated area. Do the parents just not care, or are
21 they unable to exercise control? You say you prohibit
22 your children from riding motorcycles. Apparently it
23 sticks. They don’t go out and buy one, anyway. Can
24 the parents just not control their children?
25 MR. BOWMAN: I can’t speak for other parents
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I can just speak for myself. I think the parents have
2 a responsibility. But keep in mind also that many of
the violators, as we see them going by, are not, you
4 know, not youngsters, thirteen, fourteen years old.
5 My neighbor, as a matter of fact, bought his little
6 SOn who was hardly old enough to walk, you know,
7 three feet high, bought him a small one of these
8 little trail things with a wheel the size of a
9 tricycle, and he’s riding it. Obviously, by the time
10 he’s fifteen, he’s going to know how to make one, and
ii he can do whatever he wants with it. So everone has
12 a different viewpoint on this whole arena of noise,
13 and what’s objectionable. Some just don’t care.
14 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Bowman, thank you very
15 much for answering my questions.
16 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Naveen.
17 MR. NAVEEN: No questions.
18 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Bowman, I think you
19 mentioned that there are a good number of students
20 there in Gainesville who may be interested in
21 modifying their motorcycles. Do you think that
22 there’s any chance that with a good local enforcement
23 program, good public awareness, information program,
24 that you might be able to get a considerable amount of
25 voluntary compliance? Or do you think that this is
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going to be a matter where enforcement actions will
2 have to be taken? If you have a strong law, and you
have the people to enforce it, do you think that there
can be an educational program and voluntary compliance
5 MR. BOWMAN: Well, I’m not naive enough to
6 think that everyone’s going to do everything because
7 it’s nice. But certainly a strong public information
8 program as to what the law is, wnat you shall or shall,
9 not do, will be beneficial. I think just the mere
10 fact that in the automobile, where we now require
11 once a year that they drive out to the County
12 Inspection Station, people are more conscious that
13 “I’m getting closer to my time, I better start fixing
14 my vehicle up.”
15 This is public education, and I think
16 certainly it will go a long way along with the strong
17 enforcement program to tend to bring this noise down.
18 It is one thing when they’re on a major thoroughfare,
19 with transit mix trucks and phosphates and lime rock
20 and what-have-you. It’s another thing when they’re
21 out at 7:00 o’clock at night, and the ambient noise
has really dropped, and here comes about six of them
23 through the back forty. They really will shake your
24 windows.
25 MRS ELKINS: Fine. Thank you very much,
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Mr. Bowman. We appreciate your testimony.
MR. BOWMAN: Yes, sir.
3 MR. ELKINS: And I hope that you have some
4 electricity in your home when you get back.
5 We’ll hear next from Mr. Jesse Borthwick
6 from the State of Florida.
7 MR. BORTHWICK: The Florida Department of
8 Environmental Regulation appreciates the opportunity
9 to participate in today t s hearing on the proposed
to Federal Motorcycle Noise Regulation. There are three
11 areas that we feel are important and should be
12 addressed. First of all, is motorcycle noise really
13 a problem in Florida?
14 Second, the State of Florida currently has
15 an on-going program of new vehicle certification,
16 on-road enforcement, and exhaust system certification
17 applicable to Street motorcycles, and we think you
18 should be made aware of that. And finally, we offer
a critique of your proposed motorcycle noise
regulations. And for the people in the audience, I
21 am going to be referring to some graphs in my
statement, and there are a few copies of my statement
23 over on the white table, over on the far end of the
24 room, if you’re interested.
25 Is there really a noise problem in Florida?
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I think we ought to speak generally to noise and
specifically to motorcycles. This question is often
3 raised by the decision-makers in Florida, both at the
4 State and local level, most of whom consider noise
5 control to be of very low priority. The general
6 public, however, feels quite the opposite.
7 In a recent State-wide attitudinal survey
8 conducted by the University of Florida, citizens were
9 asked their opinions on noise. Some of the survey
10 questions, along with their associate responses,
1] summarize them. We asked them: Do you consider your
12 neighborhood to be very quiet? 227. said that.
13 Fairly quiet, 567.. Fairly noisy, 167.. And very
14 noisy, 67.. Most people felt that they have a fairly
15 quiet neighborhood.
16 Have you ever complained to anyone about
17 noise? One in four said they had. 647. felt that
18 noise is harmful to their health or well-being.
847. of the people said that they were aware of noise
20 and sometimes bothered by it. 887. of the people felt
21 that noise sources should be controlled with laws or
22 regulations. We asked them further, if it is to be
23 controlled, who should control it? 657. of the people
24 responding felt that local government should be the
25 agency to control. 307. said State, and 217. said the
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i Federal Government.
2 Individuals were also •asked to rank a èeries
a of noise sources on their degree of annoyance, and to
4 identify the one source that annoyed them more than
5 anything else. As shown in Figure 1, Florida’s
6 citizenry considered motorcycles and mini-bikes to be
7 the number one noise problem by a wide margin. That
8 graph shows that 4l of those responding felt that
9 motorcycles and mini-bikes were the most annoying.
10 The next category was airplanes and helicopters at 97 ,
11 and that dropped off rapidly after that with about
12 five different sources listed there.
13 Another way of determining the public’s
interest in environmental noise is to ask how much
15 they are willing to spend for its control. Late in
16 1977, a second attitudinal survey was conducted by the
17 University of North Florida, for the City of
18 Jacksonville. As part of that survey, each respondent
19 was asked to allocate one tax dollar among the four
20 major pollution control programs: air, noise, solid
21 waste and water pollution. The average response to
22 this question is shown in Figure 2, along with the
23 actual 1977-78 tax dollar allocation.
24 And essentially, what that shows is the
25 public feels that 2O out of every environmental tax
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i dollar should go for noise control, while the actual
2 figure is only four-tenths of a cent, versus the other
3 programs.
4 The response to these surveys clearly
5 indicates that the general public, one, is concerned
6 with environmental noise, considering it to be harmful
7 to their health and welfare; two, feels that noise
8 should be regulated with emphasis on local control;
9 three, places a much higher priority on noise control
10 than is reflected in current environmental tax
11 allocation dollars; and four, considers motorcycles
12 and mini-bikes to be the single most annoying noise
13 source by a wide margin over all other major sources.
14 Let’s talk about the Florida motorcycle
15 noise control effort. In 1974, the Florida
16 Legislature enacted the Florida Motor Vehicle Noise
17 Prevention and Control Act. In addition to regulating
18 truck and auto noise, the Act prohibits all of the
following activities:
20 One, the sale of new motorcycles that
21 produce a maximum sound level in excess of limits
22 specified in Table I; two, the registration of new
23 motorcycles for which a Certification of Compliance
24 has not been filed; three, the sale of mufflers that
2 increase the motorcycle’s noise above that as
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1 originally manufactured.
2 This program went into effect last January,
a muffler certification program, and effective this
4 July all manufacturers will have to have -- new
5 motorcycles will have to test their motorcycles in a
6 stationary fashion, similar to what you are proposing,
7 and data will, have to be made available to our agency
8 and to muffler manufacturers. As of that time, all
9 the muffler manufacturers will have to certify that
10 their mufflers, when used as recommended, will not
11 allow motorcycles to exceed the original level. So
12 we have that program underway.
13 The law also prohibits the operation of
14 motorcycles t iat produce a sound level in excess of
15 specified limits; and in Table I there is an
16 operational set of limits there on road limits. And
17 finally, the modification of motorcycles to increase
18 their noise is prohibited.
Certification programs for new motorcycles
20 and replacement exhaust systems were implemented in
21 January, 1975, and in January, 1978, respectively.
On-road enforcement was initiated by the Florida
23 Highway Patrol -- and Sgt. Smith will speak to their
24 program -- in December, 1974, with citations being
25 issued in March of 1975.
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4’
1 The prime responsibility for enforcement,
however, rests with local law enforcement agencies.
As of May 1, 1978, 343 officers, representing 85
4 enforcement agencies, as shown in Figure 3 have been
trained and certified by the Florida Highway Patrol,
6 and our agency, in motorcycle noise enforcement.
7 State and local noise enforcements actions through
8 December 31, 1977, are summarized in Table II.
9 Again, our regulations speak only to street
10 motorcycles. The off-the-road motorcycle situation
ii is not addressed at State level. We leave that to the
12 locals to handle through an ordinance, an effective
13 community noise ordinance.
14 For a review of your regulations, the State
15 of Florida fully supports the establishment of a
16 uniform national standard for motorcycle noise. We
17 do, however, feel that there are two major weaknesses
in the EPA proposed regulation. First, the new
19 vehicle standards are not strict enough. As shown in
Table I, Florida has been requesting new street
21 motorcycles at a not-to-exceed level of 83 DBA since
22 1975. And I have a report that was submitted to
23 Florida by the Motorcycle Industry Council in February
24 of this year, and I’d just like to quote from it,
25 saying:
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Currently the most stringent Sound level for
new motorcycles is 83 DBA. Under the new procedures,
five states have adopted this level, including Florida
and this level has been the industry goal for the
5 1975-1980 time frame.
6 So this has been the goal of industry from
7 ‘75 through ‘80. We therefore feel that the initial
8 Federal standards should be set at 80 DBA in 1980,
9 rather than 83 DBA as proposed. We also feel that the
other Street and off-road motorcycle standards will
ii fail to provide our citizens with adequate relief.
12 The Florida Legislature is currently
13 considering revising the Florida Motorcycle Standards
14 as shown in Table I. We feel that these proposed
15 standards, which drop to 75 DBA in 1985, will be
16 required to protect against noise which may be
17 hazardous to human health and welfare, or may
18 unreasonably interfere with the enjoyment of life.
19 Our second major concern deals with
20 enforcement. It is our firm belief that the success
21 of any new product noise regulation rests with a
22 comprehensive enforcement program. Compliance testing
23 as outlined in the proposed motorcycle regulation will
24 play a major role in the overall enforcement scheme.
25 However, without strong State and local
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i in-use enforcement programs, any new product noise
regulations promulgated by the U.S. EPA -- which in
a most cases constitute a major economic impact on
4 manufacturers and consumers -- will become meaningless
5 and wasteful.
6 There are no guarantees that the new quiet
7 products will be properly maintained and operated, or
8 that they will not be deliberately modified to increase
9 their noise. A cost-effective Federal noise control
10 program can only exist on a base of strong State and
I local programs.
12 We recommend that EPA organize a task force
13 to evaluate the current status of in-use vehicle
14 noise regulations, as they relate to existing and
15 planned Federal new vehicle noise regulations, and to
16 develop a national strategy for motor vehicle noise
17 enforcement. Also, training, equipment loans, and
18 grant programs for State and local law enforcement
19 agencies should be implemented immediately.
I think that in talking with Mr. Alex Barron
21 who is the author of The Tyranny of Noise, he put the
22 situation we’re gettivg into very well. If we go out
23 and just measure the existing levels of motor vehicles
24 and set standards based on existing levels, all we’re
25 really doing is uerely legalizing the noise. Arid I
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think that that’s a very good statement, puts it
right in perspective.
3 And I guess another point on economics, I
4 think that while the newer motorcycles will cost more
5 for the consumer, we’re running into other problems
6 in noise, and St. Pete is a good example. There are
7 barriers going up on the Interstate here, costing the
8 taxpayers of Florida quite a bit. If we don’t control
9 the noise at the source, we’re going to have to pay
10 for it in other areas. So the problem is much more
11 comprehensive, much wider than just the economics of
12 source regulation.
13 And to finish, I guess I’ll end up with my
14 -- maybe we should go back to the beginning. That is,
15 this is a toy that is available through the stores.
16 What it is called is Raw Power. It’s a bicycle
17 accessory that makes a roaring motorcycle sound. And
18 according to the retailers in Tallahassee, they’re
selling like hot cakes. I think this may be the base
20 of our problem.
21 We are brought up in, as I said, I put the
22 cards on my bicycle, you know. I think we all
23 probably did that. The problem is in educating the
24 public. We need a strong public awareness program.
25 The Motorcycle Council has initiated efforts in this
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area. I think got to teach our children that
2 loud isn’t necessarily power, loud isn’t necessarily
3 good. I think we have all been taught that noise
4 comes along with technological advancements, and that
5 doesn’t necessarily have to be the case.
6 I’ll be more than happy to answer any of
7 your questions.
8 MR. ELKINS: Thank you, Mr. Borthwick. Let
9 me say that we’ve enjoyed a very effective and helpful
10 relationship with your department over the years, and
11 we appreciate your being here today to testify at this
12 hearing. Let me ask Mr. Thomas to begin the
13 questioning.
14 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Borthwick, I don’t want to
15 put you too much on the spot, but a little bit. I
16 want to know how Florida arrived at the noise levels
17 which the State has established through State statutes
18 for motorcycles. How were those numbers derived?
MR. BORTHWICK: Those numbers were
20 originally derived back in 1974, based largely on the
21 programs that have been established in California,
22 Chicago, and those proposed in Maryland. So it was
23 essentially looking at other States that had taken the
24 lead. And that, I think, is where a lot of ordinances
25 have developed, looking to California. And as I
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] understand it, Mr. Heath in California came up with
2 his original standards one morning while shaving.
3 MR. THOMAS: He has alleged personally as
4 much. All right.
5 MR. BORTIIWICK: Now, the more recent
6 standards, the Legislature is currently proposing is
7 based more, again, on existing standards in other
8 States, actions that have been taken there, plus data
9 that we’ve collected on our own. So maybe a little
10 more scientific approach.
11 MR. THOMAS: All right, sir. Now, I want
12 to ask you the sixty-four-dollar question, which is,
13 the scientific data that’s been collected, or whatever,
14 other information you have, what is, in your view,
15 based on the information developed to support the
16 ordinances, the availability of technology or the
costs of compliance to the manufacturers of
motorcycles to be able to meet the California or
Florida standards?
20 MR. BORTHWICK: You mean the existing
21 current level?
22 MR. THOMAS: No, the ones that are on the
‘23 books, yet to be met.
24 MR. BORTHWICK Well, I feel, that the
25 technology is readily available to the DBA level.
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I think that there is going to be an economic impact
2 on certain motorcycles. I feel that the technology
a that has been applied to the one motorcycle that will.
4 meet the 78 DBA limit, the Honda GL-l000, is very
5 interesting to see, the shaft-driven, water-cooled
6 motorcycle; and the expense of it, I don’t know that
7 the technology has really been tried or has been
8 applied to some of the smaller bikes. That is
9 something that kind of bothers me. But I do believe
10 there is going to be a cost associated with the
11 increase.
12 I don’t think it is going to be phenomenal
13 cost at the 80 DBA limit. I think dropping to 78 DBA,
14 if we went there today, would be a problem. We in
15 Florida currently have a standard or will have a
16 standard of 78 DBA going into effect next January,
17 which the Legislature is seriously looking at. We’re
afraid that if that is not changed, there will be a
19 major economic impact in Florida, because there is
20 only one bike that can meet it, and there has been
21 legislation proposed that will back off on that
standard.
23 The 75 DBA motorcycle, I don t believe the
24 technology is there right now, but I think that part
25 of the purpose of the regulation should be to set
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future goals, to encourage manufacturers to strive for
2 better technology, to reach out for the better
technology, and I don’t know what kind of cost would
4 really be as8ociated with that. But I don’t believe
5 that the level of 80 DBA is going to be completely
6 out of line economically. I do believe technology is
7 available. 78 DBA is going to be a little bit of a
8 problem, but I think it can be reached by 1983.
9 75, we’d like to see the manufacturers reach for it,
10 and I don’t know how much the dollar tag is going to
11 be on that.
12 MR. THOMAS: All right, sir. Are you
13 familiar, Mr. Borthwick, with the fact that the
14 manufacturers tell us that.in order to comply with
15 the Federal standards, Federal new proposed standard,
16 -- which, if they fail to comply, could result in,
17 for example, recalls of non-complying products across
18 the country, this sort of thing -- that in order to
19 comply with the Federal standard, they will have to
20 design their motorcycles to from 2 to 3 decibels
21 below the stipulated EPA not-to—exceed level.
22 MR. BORTUWICK: That’s correct. And based
23 on the statements submitted to us by the industry,
24 they have been designing it to 2 to 3 decibels below
25 our standards in our certification program.
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MR. THOMAS: It is obvious you arc
2 foreseeing my next question. I was going to ask, so
3 that when we talk about an 80-decibel motorcycle, we
4 would be talking both from the Florida statute and
5 from the U.S. EPA statute regulations, ibout a
6 77- to 78-decibel model. And if we were talking about
7 a 75 regulatory level motorcycle, we would be talking
8 about a 72- to 73-decibel motorcycle.
9 MR. BORTHWICK: That’s correct.
10 MR. THOMAS: Now, under the Federal law
11 Noise Control Act, EPA is required in determining what
12 noise level to set, is required under law to consider
13 availability of technology and the cost f compliance.
14 Now, our problem may be that we can’t do one of the
15 things that several of the States can . You could
16 set a goal, but we can’t, as it were, set a goal,
17 because we’ve got to identify clearly the availability
18 of technology and the costs of applying that
19 technology. We don’t know right now how you build a
20 72- or 73-decibel motorcycle, and still have it a
21 motorcycle.
22 MR. BORTIiWICK: I think part of the answer
23 to that is, I feel that the standard that Warren Heath
24 came up with, shaving in California one morning, back
25 in the late ‘60’s, probably does more for motorcycle
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1 noise control than anyone else. I think that
motorcycles, trucks and automobiles today, as we know
3 them, are much quieter than they were six or seven
4 years ago. We have data to show this.
5 This is because someone, realizing there was
6 a problem, felt that the industry should be pressured,
7 for example into finding solutions. And I realize
8 your problem with the best av&ilable technology, and
9 this is a problem that we have with pre-empture. We
10 have the option of putting that pressure on. But if
11 we’re pre-empted, we may lost that option.
12 MR. THOMAS: We agree with that, and as you
13 have heard earlier from Mr. Kozlowski’s comments and
14 questions to another witness, that is a serious
15 concern we have. Which leads me back to your critique
16 of the Federal regulations in here. And although it’s
17 slightly out of context with what you said, I’d like
18 to go back over that again with you, ii I may.
On the one hand, you are saying that the
20 new vehicle standards, motorcycle standards by EPA,
21 are not strict enough. And then within a minute after
22 that, you then say any new product noise regulations
23 promulgated by the U.S. EPA would in most cases
24 constitute a major economic impact on manufacturers
25 and consumers.
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1 Now, if at the 78 DBA level, which US.
2 EPA is opposing at this point, if that constitutes a
3 major economic impact, then I would ask, what do you
4 think a 75-decibel standard would do?
5 MR. BORTHWICK: I don’t know. We’ve got a
6 few years until 1985, and I’d hope that would give us
7 some time to think about it.
8 MR. THOMAS: All rigit. I think we got the
9 point. Thank you very much.
10 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards.
11 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Borthwick, I think
12 Mr. Thomas put you through the ropes on your proposed
13 standards. I don’t have much to say on the same
subject, since we put together the background document
15 so I won’t belabor that right now.
16 On another subject, we’ve heard some concern
17 particularly from the State of Colorado, that EPA’s
18 proposed stationary test and labeling on the
19 motorcycle frame, that you’re familiar with, -- can
a Florida enforcement official hear a loud motorcycle
21 go by, say, “Hey, that’ guy’s probably out of
22 compliance with the Florida regulation,” go after it,
curb it, and cause him to run a stationary test on
24 his vehicle?
25 MR. BORTHWICK: I would rather, I think,
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Sgt. Smith speak to that. I don’t know of any
2 problems, myself, but he would be able to address that
3 problem. It would be an enforcement question. I
4 don’t see that there is any problem. We’re currently
5 considering in our agency the feasibility of going
6 with the stationary test procedure that we have here
7 in Florida for muffler certification, the possibility
8 of using that as a road enforcement tool. But the
9 question of whether or not they could discriminate,
10 chase somebody down and stop him based on subjective
11 judgment, I think Sgt. Smith will speak to.
12 MR. EDWARDS: I will ask him the same
13 question. On another line, your motorcycle muffler
14 limits are in effect now, is that correct?
15 MR. BORTHWICK: That’s right.
16 MR. EDWARDS: This is for sale of new
17 products?
18 MR. BORTHWICK: Are you speaking in terms
of mufflers? Yes, now, there’s two phases. Effective
20 this January, all motorcycle mufflers, when tested in
21 stationary mode, had to comply with an overall
22 standard of 102 DBA at a distance of 20 inches
23 ½ max. r.p.m. Effective this July, manufacturers
24 will have to provide us with information on the
25 original noise level, when tested under the procedure,
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and manufacturers will have to certify that their
2 mufflers will not exceed the original level, not
3 allow that bike to exceed the original level.
4 MR. EDWARDS: Have you done any testing to
5 see whether all of the mufflers or many of the
6 mufflers sold in the State of Florida are in
7 compliance with that regulation?
MR. BORTHWICK: The problem right now is
9 that we don’t do the compliance testing program. The
10 Legislature has had legislation introduced that will
11 direct us to establish a compliance testing program
12 and provide us with the additional manpower necessary.
13 This has been a problem. A lot of muffler shop
14 dealers have complained to us that they have acted
15 responsibly and removed mufflers from their shelves
16 that they felt were not legal, and returned them at
17 an economic loss, and while the fellow down the street
18 has continued to sell the mufflers he’s taken off the
19 market. This, of course, puts him at an economic
20 disadvantage. There is a market for the loud mufflers
21 The kids want them. And so there is a very, very
22 strong need for compliance testing. We recognize that
23 and the Legislature will, too.
24 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Borthwick, thank you for
25 answering my questions.
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i MR. ELKINS: Mr. Naveen.
2 MR. NAVEEN: Mr. Borthwick, you indicate in
3 your testimony that the Florida law provides that the
4 modification of motorcycles to increase their noise
5 is prohibited. Has that been an effective aspect of
6 Florida law? Although we’ll probably get into this
7 with the sergeant later on.
8 MR. BORTHWICK: Yes, he can speak to it,
9 1 think that the idea of your labeling program is
10 excellent, and it will help us to enforce that type
11 of a situation. Up until this point, we really
12 haven’t known what the original noise level was, who
13 is to say what modified is, and who is to say what an
14 increased noise level is? So I commend you for your
‘15 action on the labeling, and I think it will be a very
16 positive, have a very positive effect on that type of
17 a clause. In the past, it’s been subjective.
18 MR. NAVEEN: I would also point out for the
i record that Section 10-A (2) of the Noise Act, in
20 addition to the regulations we’re considering here,
21 provide that the removal or rendering inoperative of
22 any noise attenuation aspect of a motorcycle is a
23 prohibited act. We hope that that provision of the
24 Nois ± Act will also assist State and local enforcement
25 officers in providing the noise control we’re hoping
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j to achieve here.
I have no further questions or comments.
3 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kozlowski.
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Mr. Borthwick, I note your
5 comment on a task force for Federal and State
6 enforcement, or at least an in-use enforcement program
7 I think that is a great idea, and we’ll go back and
8 begin developing one of those, and I’d like you to
9 volunteer to serve on it.
MR. BORTHWICK: I’ll be more than happy to.
11 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I think that’s a good idea.
12 How are bikes currently tested and certified as
13 meeting the Florida standard?
14 MR. BORTHWICK: How are bikes --
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Motorcycles.
16 MR. BORTHWICK: Okay. Well, the test
17 procedures -- which I will submit a copy of for the
18 record -- are essentially the SEAJ-331(a)-type test
19 procedure, acceleration. The manufacturer does the
20 testing, provides a letter of certification to our
21 department, that the following models, makes and
22 model of motorcycles comply with the Florida law.
23 We then, in turn, provide a list on a
24 monthly basis to the Division of Motor Vehicles, which
25 maintains that list. And when you go to register your
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i new motorcycle, if that make and model is riot on the
2 list, you cannot register.
3 As a matter of fact, we had a call from a
4 Senator the other day. One of his constituents was
5 concerned that there were some trucks being sold in
6 Georgia and Alabama, that one constituent in
7 Pensacola could not sell, and this kind of bothered
8 me, because the Florida truck standard and Federal
9 standard are the same.
10 And I said the only thing I can think of is
that we have a mechanism for prohibiting the sale of
12 non-complying vehicles through our registration
13 procedure, and it might be that the Federal
14 regulations, since they just went into effect in
15 January, have not been vigorously enforced.
16 So the program works, and it is a delight
17 to see that it works, and we have had, every year when
the new models come out, it’s kind of like a Chinese
fire drill, we get some of the first registrations
coming in, they can’t register their cars, and
21 to call CM or Ford and say, “Hey, you guys” -- we
22 usually don’t have to call them, they usually call us
23 and say, “Hey, you’ve got it coming now, special
24 delivery, it will be there today.”
25 MR. KOZLOWSKI: If you get any complaints
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like tl’t6 former, please send them to me, because we
2 want to enforce the Federal regulation, too. In fact,
3 you get the results from motorcycles? You get the
4 actual certification numbers, the test numbers?
5 MR. BORTHWICK: That data has to be made
6 available to us upon request. We do not require it
7 automatically at this time.
8 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Have you seen it?
9 MR. BORTHWICK: Have I seen the data?
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes. I’m wondering what
ii generally are the bikes coming in at?
12 MR. BORTHWICK: I don’t know. We only
13 require that they certify that they meet the limits.
14 Now, undc r this new muffler certification program,
15 we will be asking for the stationary data to maintain
16 files in our office, 80 if the manufacturer needs that
17 information, he can contact us.
18 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. Fine. Are there any
19 motorcycles that are currently not able to be sold in
20 Florida, that are sold irL other parts of the nation?
21 MR. BORTHWICK: I am not aware of any. Not
22 to the best of my knowledge. There have been some --
23 the most problems we’ve had in any of the vehicle
24 categories has been with the special-order-type of a
25 vehicle, with special options. So we haven’t run into
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1 too many other problems.
2 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. One other point I’d
like to pursue, and that is whether the Feds ought
4 regulate at all, if modified bikes are the main
5 problem, if State and locals are the ones who are
6 going to have to deal with modified bikes, even though
7 the Federal Government may Set up a better system,
8 and the Federal Covernment in fact intends now or has
9 more limits on its ability to control motorcycle noise
10 because of the consideration of cost and technology,
11 why, in your opinion, should the Federal Government
12 get in, if they should, and regulate? What’s the
13 benefit of the Federal Government regulating?
14 MR. BORTUWICK: Well, of course, the
15 near-term benefits can be achieved through strong use
16 of enforcement, to take care of the flagrant violators
17 But even if all of the motorcycles were manufactured
ig today at 75 DBA, all the automobiles were manufactured
19 at 75, and all the trucks at 75, we would still have
20 a major problem along our freeways. We could still
21 be forced to build barriers, and we strongly feel that
22 the first priority in controlling the noise problem
23 is to get that source down as quiet as possible. Then
24 you start thinking of building barriers or acquiring
25 additional right-of-ways. I think that the benefits
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of new product regulations will not be really seen
for maybe ten or fifteen years.
3 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Excuse me. That is not my
4 que8tion. I understand the reason you want to
5 regulate new products, but why not let the State of
6 Florida regulate new products, as opposed to the
7 Federal Government?
s MR. BORTHWICK: Oh, I see. Well, I think
we are in sympathy with the manufacturers. I think
that they have a problem of dealing with 50 different
ii states and a horde of municipalities that set
12 different limits and establish different test
13 procedures. So that is why we feel, in all, fairness,
that we need to have uniform national standards, if
15 they’re strict.
16 However, we do feel that we could continue
17 to enforce our own program, if the Federal Government
decides riot to do so, And if something were to
19 happen that would, say, further relax the standard
20 from your proposed, or if we decide your proposed
21 standards are not adequate, we may be wanting to take
22 action against you, to give us the right to enforce
23 stricter standards.
24 But I think that in the national picture,
25 it’s to the benefit of the States to take this
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1 responsibility away from us, let you handle it. We
don’t have that big of a program to begin with.
a We’ve got plenty of other things to do. And it would
4 be, I think, the right thing to do for the
5 manufacturers. I can understand their problems. As
6 a consumer, I’m concerned that they may have to run
7 their bikes through fifty different test procedures.
S I can un erstand the cost problem there.
9 MR. KOZLOWSKI: But the trade-off, the fact
10 that you would be pre-empted if we come up with a
11 different set of standards, you think is more than
12 compensated by the national uniformity?
13 MR. BORTHWICK: Let’s see what you come up
14 with. Right now we re not really happy with your
15 standards. We hope that you will consider making them
16 stricter. I do feel that the national uniformity
17 takes priority. I do feel that the Federal Government
18 should assume the responsibility.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you.
20 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
21 MR. KERR: Any questions I have had have
22 been answered, 80 I have no questions.
23 MR. ELKINS: We appreciate your testitnony.
24 As I read what you are saying, in essence, you wLll
25 loan us the authority to regulate these products,
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i providing we do it well.
2 MR. BORTHWICK: We’ll be watching.
2 MR. ELKINS: You’ll be watching, and you
4 may want it back. And we respect that view. It
5 shows us we need to live up to that expectation on
6 the part of the States and localities, which have, in
7 the past, already taken action to control this problem
8 Thank you.
9 MR. BORTHWICK: I might mention, in closing,
10 that this toy, when I rev it up, give it a good turn,
11 actually violates our muffler certification program.
12 So it is actually louder than what we would allow a
13 motorcycle muffler to be.
14 MR. ELKINS: Thank you.
15 We’ll hear next from Sgt. Wade Smith of the
16 Florida Highway Patrol.
17 SCT. SMITH: First of all, I am Sgt. Wade
18 Smith from the Florida Highway Patrol. I’m here in
19 the absence of Cal. Beach, our Director. First of
20 all, I have a letter I’d like to read from Col. Beach.
21 I have supplied copies there.
Gentlemen: This is in response to your
23 proposed rules on noise emissions for motorcycles and
24 motorcycle replacement exhaust systems published in
25 the Federal Register on Wednesday, March 28, 1978.
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1 We completely support your overall concept
2 in this area; however, we have comments on several
questionable areas which are as follows:
4 1. Your proposed rule shows an B3dB(A)
5 sound level for street motorcycles effective
6 January 1, 1980. We would recommend that you consider
7 changing this to 8OdB(A) sound level to be effective
8 January 1, 1981. The State of Florida has regulated
9 art 83dB(A) for motorcycles since January 1, 1975; of
10 which we have received no problems from the
:11 manufacturerS in meeting this limit. We currently
12 have proposed legislation that would require an
13 8OdB(A) for motorcycles to be effective January 1,
14 1981. We feel this would be sufficient time for the
15 manufacturers to meet the 8OdB(A) limit.
16 2. Off-road motorcycles in your proposal
17 show an 83dB(A) and 86dZ(A) sound level depending
18 upon engine displacement. We would like to recOmmet I
19 that the same limits be applied to off-road
motorcycles as to street motorcycles. We use as our
21 basis a recent survey conducted by the Florida
22 Department of Environmental Regulations, which shows
23 motorcycles and mini-bikes are the most annoying
24 noise to those surveyed. We have found through
25 cooperatiOn withiocal agencies that the off-road
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motorcycles contribute to a great number of noise
2 complaints.
3 3. Exhaust system replacements. We fully
4 support you in this area, especially in the non-
5 degradation section.
6 Although we support you in your regulation
7 of manufacturers on new and replacement equipment, we
8 feel we would not be doing justice to the citizens of
9 the State of Florida without speaking in the area of
in-use enforcement. We realize this area is not part
ii of your proposed rule.
12 The Florida Highway Patrol began a
13 comprehensive noise enforcement program in 1974.
14 Since that time, we have maintained records concerning
15 vehicles measured and vehicles in violation thrcugh
16 February, 1978. We show a violation rate of 25 in
17 the motorcycle category. Of those in violation, 76%
18 for either modified or inadequate exhaust systems
19 during the year 1977, we show an average of 3.5dB( t)
20 per vehicle in violation. The highest reading for
21 that year was l4dB(A) above the legal limit. From
22 these figures it is readily apparent that without a
23 comprehensive type enforcement program, by the state
and local agencies of in-use motorcycles, the
25 regulation of manufacturers will be of little help in
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i reducing the motorcycle noise problem.
At the present time, we have trained and
3 certified 342 officers representing approximately 80
4 local police agencies in the use and enforcement of
5 Florida’s Noise Statutes. Due to budgeting problems,
6 most agencies have been unable to obtain sound level
7 measuring devices.
8 We presently have a small number of sound
9 level meters on loan from the United States EPA in
10 Atlanta, Georgia, Regional Office, which are on loan
to local agencies through Florida’s Department of
12 Environmental Regulations. We would recommend that
13 the United States EPA look into the area of providing
funds for the purchase of this type equipment to be
15 used by local agencies that are unable to obtain them
16 within their own local budgets.
17 We appreciate this opportunity to speak on
18 these proposed rules, and again would like to say
19 that we fully support the United States EPA in its
20 endeavor to reduce environmental noise.
21 Very truly yours, 3. E. Beach, Colonel,
22 Director, Florida Highway Patrol.
23 Let me say now that on Florida Highway
24 Patrol’s enforcement, we are strictly on highway
25 enforcement. We do not enforce off-road vehicles,
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1 unless they use the highway. It was previously
2 mentioned about training. We do at this time
a presently have a 32-hour training school, whereas we
4 go into the local areas and train their local police
5 officers. And at the conclusion of the training, if
6 they pass this course, then we do certify them in
7 cooperation with the Florida Department of
8 Environmental Regulation.
9 Under Florida law, the violation of
10 on-highway noise is a traffic infraction. It is not
11 criminal, it is civil. It is also classified as
12 non-moving, and defined as $15.75. In answer to
13 Mr. Edwards’ question on the subjective noise,
14 stopping them, yes, we do have the ight to stop them
15 under the subjective noise. It is then up to the
16 officer, if he feels like he can convince the Judge
17 that he was exceeding the noise.
18 However, we do not have provisions for
19 stationary tests at this time. We do not have a
20 stationary teat. Then it is up to the police officer
21 himself to make that determination. You know, can I
22 convince the Judge that he’s too noisy? This is why
23 we have the program we have now, is because that was
24 too subjective. The courts would not go along with it,
25 Now, we take a reading to court with us.
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1 There was another.question you asked, but
2 I don’t recall how it was asked, so I’ll wait till
3 it comes up again, and I’ll be glad to try to answer
4 any questions you may have.
5 MR. ELKINS: Thank you, Sgt. Smith.
6 Mr. Kozlowski.
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you, Sgt. Smith. I’m
8 writing questions down here. You were answering them
9 Laster than I could get them down. So if I asked the
10 other question, I’ve already forgotten it, so you can
11 relax. First, I think I understand that all the
12 officers in the State Highway Patrol, in fact, can
13 cite people, and are trained to cite violators?
14 SGT. SMITH: Not trained. We have a law
15 now that is more or less what every state has, that
16 you shall not make excessive noise, and that’s the
end of it. Along with our equipment, which requires
28 our vehicles to have a muffler, tailpipe, exhaust
pipe, so forth. However, the actual training, all
20 the State officers are not trained in it, no. We
21 have myself and six troopers.
22 MR. KOZLOWSKI: But California has -- let’s
23 call them specialists in noise. Do you have the same
24 thing?
25 SCT. SMITH: Right. Myself and six troopers
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i MR. KOZLOWSKI: So you have six people for
2 the State. How many officers would you need to
3 effectively enforce the noise regulations throughout
4 the State?
5 SGT. SMITH: To effectively -- ?
6 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Well, that’s a bad question.
7 1 don’t mean you are not doing an effective job now.
8 But if you had your druthers, if you had your wishes,
9 how many officers do you think you would need to
10 really do a topnotch job?
11 SGT. SMITH: Well, I’d like to at least
12 double what I have now. However, like I say, we have
13 the local officers trained now. If we could get them
14 the equipment, there would be quite an impact on the
15 noise problem in Florida now, as far as on the
16 highways.
17 MR.. KOZLOWSKI: And you don’t see any
18 problems with training the local officers?
19 SGT. SMITH: No, sir. We have not run into
2G any difficulty in that area at all. In most cases,
21 we have had excellent participation from the local
22 agencies. St. Petersburg, Tampa, and Gainesville.
23 We’ve had speakers from both those places. There are
24 local officers trained in those two localities, as
25 well as Pinellas County. We’ve had schools here.
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MR. KOZLOWSKI: First violation, that’s a
2 $15.75 fine?
3 SGT. SMITH: Irregardless of which violation.
4 There is no stipulation.
5 MR. KOZLOWSKI: So you don’t double up ott
6 the second violation?
7 SGT. SMITH: No, sir. The only exception to
g this would be, should the man appear in court, that
9 he waives that set fine. Then the Judge can fine up
10 to $500. We have had several cases where the Judge
ii has fined $150.
12 MR. KOZLOWSKI: You ought to give them $100
13 back, to go see a doctor or psychiatrist.
14 SGT. SMITH: This is the way our law is
15 written.
16 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay.
17 SGT. SMITH: We abide by it.
18 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Is that a steep enough fine
19 to catch people’s attention, stop them from modifying
20 their bikes, and riding those bikes?
21 SGT. SMITH: That’s purely a decision of
22 the Legislature. I won’t get involved in their area.
23 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay. If they don’t go out
24 and get involved in yours, huh? Have you ever had
25 or what kind of problems have you had when you go into
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1 court with your noise readings? Has anyone challenged
2 the calibration?
3 SGT. SMITH: Oh, yes, sir. We’ve had
4 several challenges. And in our report that we made
5 in 1977 to our Legislature, we show a confiction rate
6 of 99.7%, which is quite high. We never had any
program that was quite that high. Our aircraft speed
g program is in the 99% range, but it’s just a little
9 bit lower than this. Our biggest problem has been
io Judges’ interpretation of the law, such as exempt
11 vehicles.
12 MR. KOZLOWSKI: So you don’t miss very many,
13 even when you go into court?
14 SGT. SMITH: No, sir. No, sir. We have
15 had a very good public awareness to our Court systems.
16 When we originally started our enforcement program,
17 part of our time was spent in going in and trying to
18 educate some of the Judges on the various readings
19 and so forth, especially-in the decibels limit, where
20 you go up 3 decibels, you double your power source,
21 this type thing. This was one of the hardest things
22 to get across to them.
23 MR KOZLOWSKI: Once having done that, you
24 haven’t had any problem?
25 SGT. SMITH: We still try to have
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1 pre-hearing meetings with the Judge, because we do
2 not contact every one, plus over the years, there are
3 changes, and we also recommend this to the local
4 officers that we train, that they contact the Judges
5 ahead of time, if nothing else, to explain the law to
6 them.
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Okay, fine. Thank you.
8 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
9 MR. KERR? Sgt. Smith, did you say that you
10 used a stationary test or a moving test?
11 SGT. SMITH: We have a pass-by test,
12 basically, at 50 feet.
13 MR. KERR: You just position yourself 50
14 feet away from where the person is passing by and take
15 a measurement?
16 SGT. SMITH: Right.
17 MR. KERR: When you find them in violation,
18 and you charge them the $15.75, or whatever it is --
19 SGT. SMITH: Le-t me correct that. We don’t
20 charge them that. citation. It is
21 their option to pay the $15.75.
22 MR. KERR: Okay. I understand. Does the
23 law allow you or anyone in the system to require the
24 person to modify the system back to where it meets the
25 standard? Or can they continue -- ?
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1 SGT. SMITH: We normally issue a correction
2 ard for them to do that, and in addition, we don’t
cite every one, In some cases, such as a defective
4 system, we do issue just a correction notice, to have
the system repaired. And normally, when we issue a
6 citation, we issue a correction card at that time to
7 repair the system.
8 MR. KERR: Then what does the person do?
9 SGT. SMITH: He has the system corrected
in and sends the card back to the officer.
ii MR. KERR: Does he have to undergo any
12 other tests to verify that his system now is a good
13 system?
14 SGT. SMITH: No, sir. With only six men,
is we don t have the manpower for that.
16 MR. KERR: Thank you.
17 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Thomas.
18 MR. THOMAS: Sgt. Smith, do you have any
19 records or any idea on motorcycle citations you all
20 have issued, how many are for Florida registered
21 motorcycles and how many are for out-of-state
22 registrations? -
23 SGT. £MITH: No, sir, I wouldn’t have that
24 type of information, no.
25 MR. THOMAS: Would anybody?
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1 SOT. SMITH: I would say not, not at this
2 time.
3 MR. THOMAS: All right.
4 SGT. SMITH: Without keeping up for it, and
S especially looking for something like that.
6 MR. THOMAS: Okay.
7 SGT. SMITH: I have total arrests, but I
g cannot tell you whether they be residents or
9 non-residents of the State.
10 MR. THOMAS: All right. Now, let me ask
11 you if you could please, subjectively, from your
12 knowledge of motorcycle noise violations, your
13 problems that you have had here, do you think you get
14 many out of State? Many, most, some?
15 SOT. SMITH: Let me say this. I do some
16 enforcement. I do go out and work with the troopers
17 occasionally. However, I do not have as much
18 expertise in that area as they do. So I would be kind
19 of out of my way trying to answer that question, even
20 subjectively.
21 MR. THOMAS: Well, what I am searching for
22 here is, this area could be considered something of a
23’ mecca for motorcycles, I think. That is, Florida.
24 SGT. SMITH: Well, we have a lot of visitors
25 in the State, especially in February, at Daytona, and
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the motorcycle races, and we do have quite a few
2 out-of-state motorcycles at that time.
3 MR. THOMAS: Well, I think I saw more there
4 at one time than I ever really cared to see at any
5 one place, in March, in Daytona. And I heard some
6 pretty powerful machines there. There wasn’t much
7 question that they were powerful, because they were
8 very noisy. Like you could hear them a mile away,
9 easily. And when I looked at the bike plates, the
10 license plates on the bikes, you had a lot of visitors
11 there.
12 SCT. SMITH: Yes, sir.
13 MR. THOMAS: Now, the question that I’m
14 really searching for an answer for is, when you issue
15 citations against out-of-state bikes on modifications,
16 how do you get the situation corrected, when they are
17 in for a week, and then they’re gone? Or two weeks,
18 and then they’re gone again?
SCT. SMITH: Well, if a citation jg issued,
20 then of course there is a procedure. However, if it
21 is a correction card, we have no way of knowing. He
22 could sign the card and send it back, and if he fails
23 to sign it and send it back, then of course we have
24 no way of going outside the State to take care of him.
25 However, on a citation, we are under a reciprocal
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agreement with other states, whereas the driver’s
2 license could be suspended for failure to respond to
a summons.
4 MR. THOMAS: Okay. So you have got a
5 reciprocal arrangement if the citation is issued?
6 SGT. SMITH: With some states. At this
7 time, I don’t know which ones they are. The Division
8 of Driver’s Licenses handles that area.
9 MR. THOMAS: All right. I am going to ask
10 you a nasty question now, if I may, please. Do you
ii all do any motorcycle noise enforcement during the
12 Daytona motorcycle week?
13 SGT. SMITH: To my knowledge, they have not
14 gone over just specifically for that reason. If it
15 was during their normal schedule for that area, they
16 I have. However, there are local police officers
17 trained, and I’m sure they do.
18 Mit.. THOMAS: Well, I’m going to ask the
19 City of Daytona for their violations or citations
20 rate on motorcycles during that week.
21 SCT. SMITH: I could get the week and send
22 you any figures I have. I’ll be glad to.
23 MR. THOMAS: I’d really like to have that,
24 because it seems to me that if the State of Florida,
25 and in particular the City of Daytona, acted
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1 aggressively to enforce the existing Florida statutes,
that you all right here in this State could clear up
a pretty hefty percentage of the national problem on
4 modified motorcycle noise.
5 SGT. SMITH: Well, I won’t answer that.
MR. THOMAS: I appreciate that, Sergeant:.
7 You have been a help. But I just want you to know
8 thatmy--
9 SGT. SMITH: I will attempt to get that
10 information for you. We do have a County breakdown.
11 I can’t say it right exactly in Daytona, but I can
12 tell you what we’ve done in Volusia County, which is
13 where Daytona is located.
14 MR. THOMAS: That would be very helpful,
15 Sergeant. I’d appreciate it very much. Because it
16 is obvious that, I think, that Florida has within its
17 power the glorious opportunity to serve the national
18 interest here, and I sure would like to see you do it.
19 SGT. SMITH: Yes. Being a State
20 organization, though, we have 67 countieS we have to
21 cover.
22 MR. THOMAS: But you get so many at one
23 time in one place.
24 SGT. SMITH: Well, they have to travel
25 through these other counties getting there.
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MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. Good. Thank you,
2 sir.
3 MR. ELKINS: Could be part of the loan
4 program. Mr. Borthwick said he is going to loan us
5 the authority to regulate the manufacturers. We
6 could loan you, to the extent we have the authority,
7 to take care of this problem over at Daytona.
8 MR. THOMAS: Just don’t loan me.
9 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Sgt. Smith, the question of
11 the stationary test which I alluded to before, you
12 said that the State of Florida right now does not have
‘13 a stationary test.
14 SGT. SMITH: The Highway Patrol does not.
15 MR. EDWARDS: The Florida Highway patrol
16 does not have it in its Code right now?
17 SGT. SMITH: Correct. No stipulation itt
18 our traffic laws for that.
19 MR. EDWARDS: What I am looking at is, we
20 have heard in Colorado that there is a possible
21 question of an entrapment here. Excuse me, not
22 entrapment, but self-incrimination. I hear a loud
23 motorcycle go by. I curb him, and then I ask the
24 motorcyclist to submit to this test. And then if he
25 fails the test, he is issued a citation. In other
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words, you are asking him to run the test, and if he
fails it, he’s golrtg to be -- he could be hurt by it.
Do you anticipate that this would cause you a problem
4 in the State of Florida?
5 SOT. SMITH: I could see where it possibly
6 could, under self-incrimination. I don’t know that
7 it would be. I am just saying it’s possible.
8 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. I’ve got two fast other
9 questions for you. ! ow many of the citations that
10 your set of troopers issue are based on sound level
11 measurement, and how many are based on by year or by
12 inspection?
13 SGT. SMITH: I would say lOO7 by measurement
14 MR. EDWARDS: By measurement?
15 SGT. SMITH: Yes, sir. Unless -- the only
16 arrests we make at this time would be with the absence
17 of a muffler.
iS MR. EDWARDS: bsence of a muffler. Okay.
19 Another question on a related line. How many of the
20 citations issued by the Florida Highway Patrol are
21 issued by you and ycur six troopers versus the rest
22 of the Highway Patrol?
23 SGT. SMITH: The rest of the Highway Patrol
24 do not issue noise violation certificates.
25 MR, EDWARDS: They don’t issue any at all?
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1 SGT. SMITH: Not under this statute.
2 Because this statute does require the training and
3 certification. They are not trained and certified.
4 MR. EDWARDS: Do the other officers ever
5 write up someone for a defective muffler?
6 SGT. SMITH: Oh, certainly. Certainly.
7 I do not have the figures as to the basis of it,
8 though. I can’t tell you the difference, how many
9 we write as compared to how many they write. And I
10 don’t even have the lump-sum, which I could get for
11 you. But I don’t have that available to me today,
12 MR. EDWARDS: All’ right. Thank you very
13 much.
14 SGT. SMITH: Let me go back and say that
15 any police officer can write for not having a muffler,
16 not just a State. That is any police officer.
17 MR. EDWARDS: All right. Thank you very
18 much for answering my questions.
MR. ELKINS: Mr. Naveen.
20 MR. NAVEEN: Just one brief comment.
21 Mr. Edwards asked my question about some of your
22 enforcement, the aspects of your enforcement program.
23 The comment is that we now, under the Noise Control
24 Act, do not have the authority to grant mOneys to the
25 State and local governments. Mr. Borthwick and others
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i have testified, in Washington now, before the Congress
2 - trying to change the Noise Control Act. We’re hopeful
3 because we recognize, too, that State and local
4 enforcement is a crucial element to this regulation,
that we will be able to have some authority to help
6 you out with some grants, providing more equipment or
7 more officers. So we hope that that will happen in
the future.
9 MR. ELKINS: The Senate Committee that has
10 jurisdiction over this is meeting right now, so maybe
ii if we think very hard, we might be able to influence
12 their thinking.
13 SGT. SMITH: Let me say this. We appreciate
14 the ones we have now, but we could sure use some more.
15 MR. ELKINS: Good. Thank you very much for
16 your testimony.
1.7 For the record, we’ll hear next from
18 Mr. David Roville-Rix, from the City of Jacksonville.
19 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: Good morning. I am
20 David Roville-Rix, and I represent the City of
21 Jacksonville, noise pollution activity, as part of
22 the Health Department. I decided to address you in
23 person today, as opposed to submitting written
24 material on motorcycle noise, which is an important
25 problem to the City of Jacksonville. In a recent
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noise attitudinal survey, which Jesse Borth ick
mentioned, which was conducted in the City of
3 Jacksonville by the University of North Florida,
4 participants were asked to rate the annoyance level
5 of 17 specific noises. Motorcycles and mini-bikes
6 annoyed a larger segment of the respondents than any
7 other source.
8 45 rated motorcycle noise as either fairly
9 or very annoying, compared to 3O7 for general traffic
10 noise, 28 for garbage and delivery trucks, 2Th for
11 highway trucks on the highway. Of these 4570 annoyed
12 by motorcycle noise, 9O7 were bothered for frequency
13 of more than once a week, and 77 want some sort of
14 government control for the problem.
is I favor the proposed regulat±on, because it
16 is the first to address off-road motorcycles. From
17 complaints that I have received in my office, a large
18 portion of the problem is caused by motorcycles which
19 are ridden off the road. Several factors make this
20 type more disturbing than Street riding. The noise
21 from street riding is a single pass-by event, whereas
22 off-road riding tends to stay in one particular area
23 -- to ride, say, in a vacant, undeveloped lot -- and
24 in addition, off-road riders are riders for pleasure,
25 and tend to ride in groups of two or more, to possibly
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1 compete against one another, thus compounding noise
impact. Street motorcycles -- well, other Street
3 traffic buffers the intrusion, while off-road riders
tend to be in quiet areas.
5 The noise emission regulation will alleviate
6 the impact. A reduction of sound level has the same
7 effect as decreasing the number of motorcycles in the
8 area, or increasing the distance from a receptor,
thus opening more land to the motorcycle rider off the
10 road. Control of off-road motorcycle noise by a
11 property line regulation is difficult. A violation
12 must be verified by a sound level meter, and riders
13 frequently tend to stop riding or leave the area when
14 an enforcement official appears.
15 A labeling and tampering regulation would
16 allow enforcement by local officials, to check for
17 proper equipment, without the need for sound level
18 measurements or the costly sound level meters.
19 Inspection for proper equipment can be made either by
20 enforcement officials in the field, or at the
21 inspection station, once a year. I feel that in
22 several cases, if the law is known, if the rider
23 realizes there is going to be inspection done once a
24 year, that many riders will tend to put the proper
25 equipment on the motorcycle, rather than leaving some
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1 sort of after-market add-on on the bike.
2 Vehicles which have suspected but not
3 clear-cut violations -- say, a muffler which may not
4 meet the exhaust level label, but might be also a
5 quieter muffler, such as Mr. Jones has alluded to --
6 could be required then to pass a sound level
7 stationary level test to verify that it did meet the
8 sound levels. These inspections for proper equipment,
9 I feel, would discourage modification of noise-related
10 equipment.
11 Because of these factors, I favor the
12 motorcycle noise level regulations, along with strong
13 labeling and anti-tampering regulations. I think
14 such regulations are desired by the people and needed
15 by the local officials to control this problem.
16 Thank you.
17 MR. ELKINS: Thank you for your testimony.
18 Mr. Thomas, do you have any questions?
19 MR. THOMAS: Do you happen to know, sir,
20 whether or not that University of Florida study which
21 you referred to, and which cited motorcycle noise as
22 being so serious -- do you know whether that
23 differentiated between modified or standard unmodified
24 motorcycles at all?
25 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: No, sir, it did not.
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MR. THOMAS: Jacksonville, I guess, does it
still hold the honor of being the largest city in the
3 United States?
4 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: As far as I know, sir.
5 MR. THOMAS: By territory?
6 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: Yes, sir.
7 MR. THOMAS: Okay. I asked the question
8 earlier, to the earlier gentlemen speaking -- do you
9 have areas designated within the confines of the City
10 of Jacksonville for the riding of off-road motorcycles
11 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: We have some motorcycle
12 tracks which are mainly for competition use, but there
are no other areas so designated. Generally, we find
14 that these people are riding down railroad property
15 lines, power line property lines, and the vacant lot
16 which is next-door to their yard, so to speak.
17 MR. THOMAS: Now, I’d like to ask you, sir,
18 the same question that I asked earlier. Have any of
19 you all in the City Government looked at the retailers
20 of the off-road bikes or the mini-bikes or the mopeds,
21 this sort of thing, to see whether those dealers are
22 providing any information to purchasers of their
23 products as to what the law is, what the restrictions
24 are on these vehicles, and where these purchasers can
25 legally and properly operate these vehicles? Do you
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1 know if they’re providing this information to their
2 purchasers?
a MR. ROVILLE-RIX: Well, under the current
4 laws, the riders are not necessarily riding any place
5 illegally. Unless they are trespassing. I know of
6 no information being provided by the dealers to
7 places where particularly off-road riders can ride.
8 And again, you get into a fact whether they would be
a utilized, because the riders would tend to go some
10 place close. In a lot of cases, they’re under age
11 to drive on the street, and they’re going to be
12 generally in their neighborhood, or the closest vacant
13 lot. They’re coming home after school and jumping on
14 their motorcycles and going out.
15 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Now, based on your
16 ordinances, or your statutes, would it generally be
17 the case, usually, all the time be the case, that when
18 they ride on that vacant lot or on the church-yard,
19 church parking lot, for example, would that be
20 violating the ordinances, the noise level ordinances,
21 do you think? The property line ordinances, is what
22 I am referring to, of course.
23 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: It would depend a lot of
24 times upon the bike being used. If it was a small
25 mini-bike, and the lot was big enough, then there
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would be no violation. We go by a property line
2 measurement for regulation. The larger bikes would
a violate that. The problem has been enforcing it,
4 though.
5 MR. THOMAS: Well, here’s what I’d like to
6 ask you to consider, if you would, and perhaps you
7 ‘could submit your further views on this at a later
g time for our record. But it seems to me, from the
9 testimony that we’ve heard elsewhere from here, from
10 State and City officials, and from the industry itself
ii that a lot of this problem is an education problem;
12 that if the parents who are buying the bikes for the
13 youngsters have an understanding of what they can do
14 or what they must do or what they should do, where
15 they buy the bikes, that might be the first point to
16 solve part of the problem.
17 The second part of the problem would be to
18 bring in the dealers who are retailing these vehicles,
19 and between the City Government and the police
20 services and the dealers, who want to sell as many of
21 these as they can, to get them working with you,
22 because if you are selling these bikes --
23 And just to give you one example, if a
24 parent goes out and buys one of the off-road bikes,
25 and hasn’t even considered the noise problem, and
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does not have a van or hasn’t purchased a trailer,
2 so that they can transport this vehicle, and their
3 youngster, to a properly-designated place, or some
4 place where they won’t violate the ordinance, then
5 he’s got another expenditure, and it may be a pretty
6 hefty one on him, that hasn’t been considered before.
7 Now, to put that bike in the garage, after
he has spent a few hundred bucks for it, you know,
9 that youngster is going to be mighty unhappy just
10 sitting there every day, going out and looking at the
11 thing, and not being able to ride it. We all know
12 human nature being what it is, you know, mom and pop
13 go off to the store, something, that bike’s going to
14 get revved up, it’s going to go some place.
15 So I’m just wondering what, if anything,
16 would be an approach to trying to handle this problem?
17 And since it seems that you all have this kind of a
18 situation in Jacksonville, I’d be very much interested
19 in knowing what you think might work here, or are
20 there some other things, other than you? You know,
21 the Federal Government trying to step in? Is there
22 an education program that could be developed in here,
23 or are there different solutions that might be more
24 appropriate? Could you give that some further
25 consideration?
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1 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: I surely ‘will.
2 MR. THOMAS: Appreciate it. Thank you.
3 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kozlowski.
4 MR. KOZLOWSKI: No questions. Thank you.
5 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
6 MR. KERR: I have no questions.
7 MR. ELKINS: I have one question for you.
8 You mentioned that the off-road bikes are the main
g problem for you. You will notice in the regulation
10 that we have written that we have required the
11 smaller off-road bikes to be as quiet as the street
12 bikes. But we have stopped short of doing that for
13 the larger ones. My question is in two parts. Are
14 the larger bikes also offending, the off-road bikes,
15 an offending vehicle in your jurisdiction? And
16 secondly, do you think this is such a problem that
17 EPA should go further in regulating the larger bikes?
18 We believe we have stopped short of requiring such
19 stringent noise levels that the performance of the
20 bike and the weight would be very adversely affected.
21 Do you think that this problem is so serious that we
22 should have regulations which might, in fact, change
‘23 the sport somewhat?
24 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: Well, I think that in an
25 urban, semi-urban, semi-rural area, around
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1 Jacksonville, most of the impact is from the smaller
2 bikes from the kids, after school and on weekends.
a The larger bikes tend to go to areas which are larger
4 in size. But I think as development continues, and
5 these areas get smaller, that attention should be
6 paid to reducing the levels of the larger bikes. We
7 •have several wilder dune-type areas where we see a
8 lot of recreational vehicles, larger areas, but these
9 are fairly close to residential areas, and we do have
10 some problem with the larger bikes in these areas.
11 MR. ELKINS: So one approach to the Federal
12 Government, then, is to regulate more or less as we
13 have indicated now, work with local communities on
14 land use controls, and other-type things, as
15 Mr. Thomas was asking you, and then watch to see
16 whether there is still a remaining problem as urban
17 development spreads, and as these become perhaps more
18 popular, and see whether further restrictions would
19 have to be placed on the larger bikes?
20 MR. ROVILLE-RIX: Yes.
21 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Thank you very much for
22 your testimony.
23. We had a number of people in the audience
24 who have indicated they’d like to speak this morning,
25 and we’re very happy about that, and we will now move
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to have some of them, as many as we can, speak, and
2 hopefully be able to reach all. And in addition, if
there are people who have come in late that did not
hear the earlier announcement, that if you would like
5 to speak, we really would like you to do so, and you
6 just speak to the people at the table where you came
7 in, and they’ll have you fill out a card and it will
8 be sent up here.
9 The first person we’d like to hear from is
io Dorothy Lott. I believe you are from the Lakewood
ii. Civic Association.
12 MRS. LOTT: Right.
13 MR. ELKINS: If you would like to use the
14 microphone, that would be helpful, so everyone would
15 be able to hear you.
16 MRS. LOTT: I have two comments, my Own,
17 and this is the Lakewood Civic Association’s. To the
18 United States Environmental Protection Agency, from
19 the Lakewood Civic Association. Subject, proposed
20 motorcycle noise emission standards. - -
21 The membership of the Lakewood Civic
22 Association live in Southeast St. Petersburg, and wish
23 to make known their concern over noise emitted from
24 motorcycles traveling through normally quiet
25 residential streets of our City. In addition to being
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1 a nuisance, the noise contributes significantly to the
2 deterioration of the quality of life we enjoy here.
3 It is our hope that the EPA will adopt strong
4 standards governing motorcycle manufacturers and
5 replacement mufflers, and set up criteria for
6 inspections of these vehicles now on the road,
possibly through existing State vehicle inspection
8 stations.
9 It is our concern that by the permanently
proposed standards, EPA does not seem as current as
fl. State noise standards. We hope any standards adopted
12 by EPA will be at least as strong as those enforced
13 at the State level. Signed by Roy P. Mason, our
14 President.
15 And this is my own. It is an underlining
16 of the same idea. We commend the EPA for the proposed
17 regulations for noise control. It is our concern that
18 included in these proposals provision be made for
19 stricter standards of some States, as Florida’s, to
20 be recognized and permitted to prevail over the
21 less-strict standards of the Federal law during the
22 period of meeting compliance. It is also our concern
23 that the reasons for lack of enforcement in the past
24 years be recognized by the Federal agency, so that
25 implementation of the State and County standards may
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be expedited.
2. Thank you.
3 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Naveen would like to ask you a question.
5 MR. NAVEEN: Actually, it is a point of
6 clarification. Mrs. Lott, I want you to be aware that
7 the Noise Act tells us to identify those areas of
8 national interest which we can properly regulate, and
9 one of our great concerns here, as you’ve heard from
10 Mr. Borthwick’s testimony this morning, and alluded to
ii by others, that Florida does have somewhat stricter
12 rules for motorcycles than we have, and we have to
13 evaluate, through these hearings and through the
14 comment period, exactly how tough they are, because
‘15 the law says the minute the EPA acts in the area of
16 regulating the noise from new motorcycles, we pre-effipt
17 or displace local rules to that effect.
18 One of our great concerns here is cleaning
up the noise in the environment. We do not want to
20 do anything in our regulations to disturb that. There
21 are variations of test procedures and other
22 intricacies that have to be evaluated. But we do
23 share your concern for not wanting to displace rules
24 on the State and local level which are seemingly more
25 tough or stricter than others that may have been
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1 proposed. So we take your comments to heart, and we
will make sure that we do not do the kind of
3 displacement you fear.
4 MRS. LOTT: May I ask you a question? I
5 was reading those regulations, and it is probably
6 because I don’t understand it, I’m not too up on these
7 things, but you have one part of that fact sheet that
g says motorcycles and exhaust systems, replacement
9 exhaust systems, must be built so as not to degrade
above the standard, so as not to degrade above the
11 standard for at least one year.
12 My question is, suppose, if the manufacturer
13 knows that he doesn’t have to make a piece of
14 equipment that needs to last more than one year, will
15 he, in turn, be providing the buyer-consumer with a
16 piece of equipment that will become substandard?
17 MR. THOMAS: I think that a vote was just
18 taken up here on how you answered that. You won.
19 MR. 1 OZLOWSKI:- Right now, Mrs. Lott,
20 there’s no requirement at all that the manufacturer
21 buiLd the bike to last at all. The manufacturer
22 works in the marketplace. So while our one-year
23 acoustical insurance period may not seem like a very
24 strict standard, it’s one year better than anything
25 the manufacturer has now. We don’t believe the
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1 manufacturers will build substandard bikes as a result.
We think, if anything, they’ll build the noise system
a little bit better than perhaps some of them are
4 building it now. But there is certainly a minimum on
it.
6 Likewise, we believe that if the noise
7 attenuation parts do, in fact, last a year, without
8 substantial degradation, that they will meet it over
a continuing period of time, on the motorcycle as a
10 whole. Now, you may have to replace the muffler or
11 the sparkplugs or the other parts, but that the
12 motorcycle as a whole will’meet the noise standard
13 over a longer period of time.
14 MR. THOMAS: You should know, Mrs. Lott, that
15 this is an item which undoubtedly will go to court,
16 on this question. Manufacturers are almost uniformly
17 opposed to this provision of the law, of the
18 regulations, I should say. They are very concerned
about it, as manufacturers. Just as you see on the
20 automobile side, where automobile manufacturers today
21 have been issuing recall orders for defects in the
22 automobiles. This can be an extremely costly element
23 to manufacturerG, and they don’t want to assume this
24 liability burden that would be imposed.
25 The other part of it is -- and that is what
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we’re trying to work through -- is how much should
2 really be their responsibility as a manufacturer, and
a how much responsibility should the owner and the
4 operator of the vehicle have for being sure that it is
5 properly maintained and functioning properly, as it
6 was designed to do? It is a difficult line to walk,
7 and that is what we’re involved in trying to decide
8 here.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much for your
11 testimony. We’ll hear from Earle Merrill. You can
12 speak either from the podium or from the table,
13 whichever you like, sir.
14 MR. MERRILL: I don’t have much to say to
15 you gentlemen, other than the fact that I am a retired
16 police officer, moved to Florida, and ride a motorcycle
17 and I’m opposed to all the Federal regulations. I
18 don’t think the Federal Government should have anything
19 to do with how much noise-a motorcycle makes. I think
20 if people don’t like the noise, all they’ve got to do
21 is call the police and sign a complaint, and the man
22 will have to go to court and pay a fine. That is the
23 way it was when I was a police officer, and I don’t
24 see anything wrong with that right now. If you are
25 disturbing the neighbors, you are entitled to make a
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complaint, and I don’t think the Federal Government
should have to get involved in it.
3 MR. ELKINS: Could I ask you whether you
4 feel that that applies as well to Street bikes, where
5 the complaint is people riding by, and it’s hard to
6 identify who the person is?
7 MR. MERRILL: Yes, sir. I think if a Street
8 bike goes by, one trip, and he does make a lot of
9 racket when he goes by, if he only makes the one trip,
10 why, I think you could probably live with that, as
11 well as they can live with the dog barking next-door
12 once in awhile.
13 But if that bike keeps coming by, I’m sure
14 they won’t have much trouble finding out who he is,
15 if he lives in the neighborhood. It is usually a
16 neighborhood problem. As far as going down the
17 highway, the tires on most of these big automobiles
18 make more noise than most motorcycles. And I don’t
19 think that is any big complaint.
20 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Any other questions?
21 MR. THOMAS: Let me ask you this, Mr. Merril
22 Do you own a motorcycle now?
23 MR. MERRILL: Yes, sir.
24 MR. THOMAS: What do you think about the
25 Florida law that exists, that is going to put a noise
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level on motorcycles? If you heard my earlier
2 statement, I don’t know that motorcycles can be made
today to meet those standards.
4 MR. MERRILL: I don’t, really -- I’m not
5 too up on these decibels that they’re talking about.
6 I don’t really know what 80 decibels sounds like.
7 I’m not that technically informed. However, I
s understand our normal speaking voice is probably
65 decibels, and I don’t know if you’re going to --
Jo I don’t know if they could make a motorcycle that can
ii be -- I don’t know how much more 80 decibels are than
12 65 decibels. But I don’t really know about that.
13 But I know that, or I feel that the Federal Government
14 shouldn’t have to tell people to quit making noise.
15 MR. TMOMAS: Okay. Well, I don’t know if
16 you heard the argument before in here, and we think
17 it’s important to be sure we’re communicating on this
18 one. You have got a number of states who have got
19 different rules on noise from new motorcycles right
20 now. Florida and California have major legislation
21 on the books right now, that the manufacturers of
22 motorcycles are telling us that they just can’t live
23 with, because they can’t meet those standards.
24 Now, the manufacturers of the motorcycles - -
25 and we’ve heard from Harley-Davidson, AMF, we’ve heard
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from Suzuki and we’ve heard from Kawasaki, and all
2 three of the corporate representatives of those firms
3 have said, “We want Federal regulations, because we
4 want a single national uniform standard against which
5 to manufacture.”
6 Now, as a motorcyclist, knowing what the
7 motorcycle industry is saying, would you still keep
8 your position that says. you don’t think the Federal
9 Government ought to be in this business?
10 MR. MERRILL: Yes, sir. I think they can
11 get together themselves. If I want to move to West
12 Smashlock, and they don’t have any noise regulations,
13 and I want to put straight pipes on my machine, that
14 is where I can do it, I want to be entitled to do that.
15 I don’t think Uncle Sam should tell me I can’t go
16 anywhere, that there’s no place in this United States
17 that I can go and ride a noisy motorcycle. If the
18 City tells me I can’t ride there, and I want to move
19 to another city that tells me I can ride there, then
20 think I should be allowed to do that. I don’t think
2! the Federal Government should regulate it.
22 MR. THOMAS: Okay.
23 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. We
24 appreciate your views.
25 MR. MERRILL: Thank you.
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MR. ELKINS: We’ll hear next from Ralph King.
2 Mr. King, we’re glad you came.
3 MR. KING: Thank you. Thank you for
4 allowing me to have my little say. First of all, I
5 think that we’re generally not in agreement as to what
6 a decibel is, what a weighted decibel is or just what
an ordinary decibel is. And I think that when we’re
S talking about 3 decibels, and it seems so simple, just
9 lop off 3 decibels, we fail to understand that we’re
10 talking about cutting whatever it is in half.
11 Now, most people, when they start talking
12 about noise, this is a chart that’s printed and
13 distributed. I’m sure most of you have one of these
14 in your briefcase. And it’s very interesting that a
15 bedroom is sixteen times quieter than a living room.
16 This means that there’s sixteen times as much noise,
17 from your TV and the kids rattling papers, whatever,
18 the telephone ringing, than the bedroom.
19 Now, you figure that each 3 DB we’re talking
20 about is doubling the average traffic noise. When we
21 say 83 decibels for a motorcycle exhaust, if it’s
22 within an 83-decibel level, we don’t recognize it as
23 such. Therefore, we creep up on the real culprit,
24 human nature.
25 It all boils down to the fact that as far
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back as I can remember -- and I remember Studebakers,
2 Packards and things of that sort - - there were many
3 people who wouldn’t be caught dead in a Studebaker.
4 The same would ride on nothing but a Huprnobile. And
5 it’s going on and on like that. My mother, bless her,
6 still despises motorcycles. She gives me holy Cain
7 every time I ride over to see her on my bike, But I’d
8 much rather be on that bike than in a rocking chair,
9 I assure you.
10 Now, there is one other little thing that
ii has to do with this human nature thing, that when a
12 person goes around, rambling down into a quiet
13 residential neighborhood, he can be doing 60 decibels,
14 and there’s going to be some people in that
15 neighborhood who are going to swear that he’s at
16 160 decibels, which is impossible to measure. The
17 same is true in the City.
18 Now, you take this thing from the viewpoint
19 of driver education. We have a thing called a
20 four-wheel syndrome. From the time a kid is able to
21 sit in a little kiddie-cart, Morn puts on the front
22 seat, and in six months he knows what the front seat
23 of an automobile is, what the driving position is,
24 what the steering wheel is for, and why Mom puts her
25 foot on the big pedal and all these little things.
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He grows into it.
2 And from then on, up to the time he goes to
3 school, he learns how to drive. What is he taught?
4 Automobile. He doesn’t have the foggiest idea that a
5 motorcycle has to have a license, an inspection
6 sticker, a registration, insurance. Not now, but
7 formerly. And all the rest of the things that go
8 along with it, and is entitled to the same thing on
9 the road. The instructor doesn’t tell him that. The
10 instructor says, “This is your car.” To get out in
11 an automobile. There’s a big yellow sign on it. It
12 says, “Student driver, beware.”
13 A kid can go into a motorcycle shop, with
14 his old man’s permission, buy the bike, and not have
15 fifteen minutes’ experience. But if he’s got an
16 automobile driver’s license or any other kind of an
17 operator license, he can hop on that bike right down
the avenue. Now, that’s the kind of thing we’re
19 looking at when we say that we want this or we want
20 that, or we want so much of this or so little of that.
21 We’ve got to come to some kind of a leveling
22 off, that if we’re going to have dirt bikes, which is
23 as alien to street bikes as night to day, we’re going
24 to have those in the same category of noise conformancc
25 going to have to educate the public, first, that there
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107.
1 are areas suitable for this kind of riding. Now,
2 fortunately, we have that. The City of Melbourne has
a rather large airport, and part of it is not used.
4 They have canals on it, and allow the kids to go out
5 there and ride. They have their fun, and that’s it.
6 Now, on the other hand, when these bikes are
7 taken out there, they’re not allowed on the streets
8 unless they’re a combination bike. They’re discouragec
9 By and large, we don’t have a motorcycle noise problem.
10 We have motorcycle noise, and it’s being enforced, but
ii until such time as you can get the funds and get
12 enough meters and back up what Sgt. Smith related here,
get people trained -- it doesn’t take much training.
14 After you take one of these training courses, you can
15 almost go out and pick them out by ear. You don’t
16 need a meter to tell you.
17 It’s just like the gentleman here with a
18 little toy, you don’t need anyone to tell you, a meter
or anything of that sort to tell you they’re noisy.
20 If you take a bike that’s been, as they call it in the
21 trade, gutted, you dofltt need anything hut one ear to
22 tell you that thing is not right. I wouldn’t ride one.
23 don’t think my son would. I know my daughter
24 wouldn’t.
25 We’re three motorcyclists, and I’ve been on
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1 the two-wheelers for a little over fifty-five years,
2 and I have seen some come from the factory without any
kind of mufflers, right on up to the point now where
4 we’re talking in terms of less than 1/100th of the
5 noi3e they started with. We’re getting there.
6 Now, I’ll disagree with the Florida law as
7 against yours. I think yours, in its leniency, is
8 far better, for the simple reason that we’ve got a
9 little room to play with. But when you’re talking
io again about 3 decibels, you’re talking about half that
n much noise. Another 2 decibels is 68 of that amount,
12 and so on down the line.
13 I just want to have my little say on this
14 thing, about one other thing, that the press relations
15 on his meeting didn’t do the motorcyclists any good.
16 And when I read it, I was sorry I read it. It took me
17 about two days to get down to normal again, get my
18 blood pre3sure back.
19 But this piece of news press release was the
29 most emotionalistic and dander-raising that I have
21 read in a long time. It put the image of every
22 motorcyclist, whether he is street, road, back yard,
23 dirt, trail or whatever, as a dirty, unkempt, immoral,
24 loudmouth,, swearing individual, riding on an unbridled,
25 to quote here, cacophonous machine of the Devil, to
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1 I run around the countryside, to give terror and mayhem.
2 We’re not that kind, not by a long shot. And that’s
all I can tell, you.
4 MR. ELKINS: We appreciate your testimony.
5 MR. THOMAS: May I see that article just for
6 a moment? I want to cite the reference on that, for
7 the record, please.
S I’d like the record to show that this is an
9 article by Mr. Frank DeLoache, of the St. Petersburg
10 Times, and the title of it is Bothered by Motorcycle
II Noise? EPA Will Be Taking Complaints May 5 .
12 MR. KING: You may have that.
13 MR. THOMAS: No, I have a copy. Thank you.
14 We’d like to talk to you for a minute, though.
15 MR. KING: Yes, sir.
16 MR. THOMAS: I’d like to respond to that.
17 I spoke with the President of the American Motorcycle
18 Association last week in California. That was not a
19 press release by EPA. The U.S. Government did not
make those statements. They were not made by a
21 representative of the U.S. Government. The quotes
22 made in that article were made by an individual who
23 was under contract to the U.S. Government to do certair
24 preliminary planning work for us. I am told by that
25 individual. that most of the statements attributed to
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1 that person were not, in fact, made, that the
2 statements were made out of context, and that a great
3 deal of additional material was placed in that article
4 by the staff writer himself.
5 So for the record, sir, I have issued a
6 public apology to the AMA, and stated categorically
7 that that is not the position of the U.S. Government,
8 and I have a formal letter from the employer of that
9 individual attesting to everything that I’ve stated to
10 you here.
11 MR. KING: I accept your explanation, sir,
12 and I appreciate it.
13 MR. ELKINS: Any questions? Mr. King, we
14 appreciate your coming and giving us this testimony.
15 MR. KING:. Thank you, sir.
16 MR. ELKINS: We will hear next from Gregory
17 Schmidt.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: Good morning. Until the last
19 two speakers had their say, I was beginning to think
20 Iwas one of the few people in here who was going to
21 say anything negatively about what the EPA proposes to
22 do. I work for a Florida cycle supply as a purchasing
23 manager. We’re one of the largest after-market
24 distributors in the United States, and especially in
25 the Southeast.
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1 The motorcycle industry is very, very
2 concerned about all problems relating to the
3 environment. Smoking emission control is one of the
4 topics that has been under discussion in the motorcyci
5 industry. Now we’re talking about noise standards.
One aspect that we haven’t discussed very much is the
7 effect on the after-market of these regulations.
8 When we talk about Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki,
9 Harley-Davidson, we’re talking about very, very large
10 companies, with substantial resources. These c
11 do have the money to retool to the extent necessary to
12 meet these standards. Many of the after-market
13 companies, such as ray own company, do not have these
14 resources.
15 I have spoken t some people on the West
16 Coast who are involved in replacement of muffler
17 systems, testing those s terns and selling those
18 systems, and it is their feeling that the 83 DBA
19 standard is a livable standard. When we go below
83 DBA, we’re talking about not just muffler redesign
21 or retooling for mufflers, we’re talking about
22 redesigning practically the entire concept of the
23 motorcycle.
24 Certain Harley Davidsons, without thc. engine
25 running, free-wheeling, going down the hill, the chain
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alone will make 78 DBA, or better. It is my feeling,
and I think of the large part of the industry, that
the problem is that we’re not adequately enforcing
4 tampering regulations. I don’t know whether anybody
5 knows how loud 83 DBA is, but I could very easily get
6 a local dealer to bring a brand-new motorcycle into
7 this room right here. We can start the motorcycle,
and it’s not as loud as that air conditioner. Some of
9 you may have heard that squeak awhile ago. That was
10 much more offensive to me than a motorcycle, the
ii squeak coming from the air conditioner.
12 I can bring a 400 Hawk Honda or a GL-l000 in
13 here, and you people who are not familiar ‘with
14 motorcycles will be amazed at how quiet that motorcyci
15 is. So we’ll get back to enforcing the tampering
16 regulations. The Motorcycle Industry Council and the
17 Motorcycle Trade Association is actively trying to get
18 their members and other people in the motorcycle
19 industry to be concerned about the noise problem, and
20 they are making progess.
21 The one gentleman mentioned that he’s been
22 riding for fifty-five years, and he mentioned how loud
23 motorcycles used to be, and that is true. And my
24 motorcycle is a 1975 model that does not meet the
25 current either emission or noise standards, I don’t
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1 believe, especially for the State of Florida, but it
2 isan exceedingly quiet motorcycle.
3 And when you talk about street models, you
talk about off-road models, you’re talking about two
5 entirely different motorcycles. For the most part,
6 the noise that everyone associates with motorcycles
7 is a two-stroke dirt bike, or the two-stroke racing
8 bike, which has an extremely high-pitched noise. And
9 right where I live in Jacksonville, Florida, out in
10 the back, I can hear the kids go by in the afternoon
ii with their bikes, and I don’t like it, either, and I
12 am a motorcyclist.
13 But the problem is not that that motorcycle
14 was loud when it was purchased, because I can get
15 18 motorcycles in here, of all different brands and
16 all different uses, brand-new, right out of the box,
17 and they are not, believe me, they’re not offensive.
i8 However, because children like to put playing cards
19 on the wheels of the bicycles, because they like litti
20 gadgets like the one the gentleman had there, and just
2! because kids seem to like to make noise and hear t1oise,
22 younger children modify their motorcycles. Some older
23 people, too.
24 But we’re talking about the kind of bikes
25 that are offending people. We’re talking about, I
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1 think, the statistics that I read this morning, where
2 247 of the riding public was under the age of eighteen,
3 1 believe it was, the median age being twenty-four
4 years old. So we’re not talking about the majority.
5 First of all, we’re not talking about the majority of
6 the motorcycles, because the ones to offend are the
7 two-strokes.
8 And statistics show that by the year 1983,
9 957 of all motorcycles are going to be four-strokes,
10 because the two-stroke motorcycles cannot meet the
11 emission standards. So just over the course of time,
12 if we did nothing else as far as noise regulation,
13 the noise problem is going to abate simply because
14 there are going to be less and less two-stroke
15 motorcycles available. Then we have 95 of t .em being
16 four-stroke motorcycles, and possibly 5 or 10% of the
17 people that ride those motorcycles being the type of
18 individual who would modify that exhaust system.
From a philosophical and personal stardpoint,
20 resent the Federal Government doing almost anything,
21 because it always costs me money, and I really don’t
22 know whether it can be done more effectively at the
23 Federal level than it can at the State level. Hooker
24 Headers, for instance, which is one of the larger
25 after-market muffler manufacturers, goes to great
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lengths in all their sales brochures to indicate which
2 one of their muffler systems or which series of their
3 muffler systems meet the Florida standards, and
4 California standards, and they go into great detail
5 to educate the dealer, in the hope that dealer will,
6 in turn, educate the consumer.
7 I think the standard that we have right now
8 is more than sufficient. And not only that, but to go
9 below that standard, I think, will cause great
10 economic harm to after-market people which account for,
11 in the neighborhood of $2,000,000,000 in the United
12 States economy, and the only people who are going to
13 be able to meet a 78 standard -- and this will only be
14 after years of retooling and redesign -- are the big
15 Japanese manufacturers. And we’re always hearing the
16 Government crying about the balance of payments, the
17 trade deficit. We certainly are not doing anything
18 for the United States economy by making it only
19 possible for large Japanese manufacturers to conform
20 to these standards.
21 So in summation, what I’m saying is, the
22 83 DBA, the proposed 83 DBA is livable within the
23 existing technology. But we in the after-market feel
24 that it is not livable below 83 DBA without a
25 tremendous expenditure of money and time. We believe
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that there should be much stricter enforcement of
2 tampering regulations, because as I mentioned, the
3 stock motorcycles are quiet. It is the ones that are
4 modified that are causing the noise problem. And this
is not the fault of the motorcycle manufacturer. It
6 is not the fault of the after-market manufacturer.
7 As the gentleman said, it’s the fault of human nature.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Schmidt, are there mufflers,
10 exhaust systems made by the after-market manufacturers
11 today which can be used in modifying motorcycles,
12 which would have these motorcycles exceed an 83
13 standard?
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Are there systems available
13 that are at the 83? Is that what you want to know?
16 MR. ELKINS: Or above. So that if you had
17 a motorcycle which made 83 decibels when you bought it,
18 could you go and buy an after-market exhaust system
19 which would have it exceed the 83 to a significant
20 extent?
21 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
22 MR. ELKINS: Do you think that should
23 continue? Is that a good thing?
24 MR. SCHMIDT: No. I don’t think it is a
25 good thing. If we are going to have a standard, let’s
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keep to the standard. What I am saying is that the
83 standard is what we ought to be at, and there are
3 manufacturers now who will certify that their system
4 is legal in the State of Florida, for instance, which
5 has one of the stricter standards.
6 MR. ELKINS: So you would favor a nationwide
7 standard similar to the Florida standard which
8 essentially would take off the market any echaust
9 system which would cause a motorcycle to be louder
10 than 83 decibels?
11 MR. SCI-INIDT: I think we definitely do need
12 a standard, both in this area and in emissions control,,
13 for motorcycles, because in my talking with dealers,
14 it’s had a very bad effect on their attitude toward
15 after-market suppliers, because the big four -- Honda,
16 Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki -- have written letters to
17 them expressly warning them about tampering with that
18 motorcycle, and that they may be, liable for prosecution
19 if they tamper it in anyway without using a certified
20 piece of equipment.
21 When you come to smoking emission control
22 devices, as far as mufflers go, there is no standard.
23 So when they come to us and they say, “Can you meet
24 this standard?”, we say, “Well, we don’t know what the
25 standard is.” If we had a standard, and it was a
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nationwide standard, I think it would be a lot better
for the industry as a whole, rather than saying, well,
these motorcycles can go into Florida, these can go
into California, and these can go everywhere else.
5 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Thomas.
6 MR. THOMAS: You just referred, Mr. Schmidt,
7 to some letters from the Japanese manufacturers,
8 warning dealers and distributors about tampering with
9 the systems.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: This was specifically about
11 smoking emission control devices. But they were
12 talking about muffler systems, and I assume that the
13 anti-tampering regulation for noise would be similar
14 to the one for smoking emission control.
15 MR. THOMAS: Have you seen any correspondence
16 with any of these, any of the major motorcycle
.17 manufacturers, specifically addressing noise? H
18 MR. SCHNIDT: It is mentioned in the repair
19 manuals for most of the-new motorcycles. It is on my
20 motorcycle, for instance, a 550 Honda, 1976. It is
21 imprinted right on the muffler, that they do not
22 recommend that you change that exhaust system, just
23 because of the mechanics of the engine itself. They
24 don’t specifically mention noise, but they want you
25 to buy their product.
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1 MR. THOMAS: Thank you. You mentioned that
-- oh, two things. One, you said we’d be amazed at
how quiet a GL-l000 is. Do you have any idea how
quiet a GL-l000 is?
5 MR. SCHMIDT: 83 OBA.
6 MR. THOMAS: No, sir. 78.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: 78? Well.
8 MR. THOMAS: And we have measured some lower
9 than that, down to 76.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: Mm-hmiu.
11 MR. THOMAS: So the technology for those
12 bikes in particular is not only available, it is being
13 marketed and sold in the United States right now.
14 MR. SCHMIDT: The point I tried to make,
15 though, is that the Japanese are the only ones who can
16 afford it. Cycle Supply cannot afford to meet those
17 standards.
18 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. That leads me to the
19 next point. You said that only the larger Japanese
20 manufacturers could comply. Do you know how many
21 manufacturers there are in the United States of
22 motorcycles today, sir?
23 MR. SCHMIDT: Manufacturers in the United
24 States?
25 MR. THOMAS: U.S. manufacturers of
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1 motorcycles.
2 MR. SCHMIDT: Harley-Davidson, Hodaka and
Robcon, I believe.
4 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. Do you know what
5 their percentage of the market is?
6 MR. SCHMIDT: Their percentage of the market
7 In the neighborhood of 57..
8 MR. THOMAS: 5%. Yes, sir. That is with
9 the absence of Federal regulations.
10 MR. SCHMIDT: Right.
11 MR. THOMAS: Can you give me or us your
iz views as to why the American manufacturers of
13 motorcycles have left the field to the Japanese?
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Well, other than Harley-
15 Davidson and Indian, for a long time there weren’t any
16 others. Now, when you talk about Robcon and Hodaka,
17 we’re talking about dirt bikes. And Indian left the
18 scene about 1951. In my own personal opinion, the
19 Japanese are much more aggressive marketing people
20 than the United States people that are involved in
21 the motorcycle industry, and the English. They just
22 improved their product and came out with a better
23 product. That is my opinion.
24 MR. THOMAS: There wouldn’t be any reason,
25 I’d guess -- this is a very subjective question --
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there wouldn’t be any reason why American ingenuity,
2 American technology, all the greats they flaunt about
America here -- there is no reason we couldn’t compete
with the Japanese in the market, is there, for the
sale of motorcycles? But I don’t see any American
6 manufacturers coming in, do you?
7 MR. SCHMIDT: No, I don’t, I don’t, and I
g think itt s because they cannot come in with a
9 comparable product at a competitive price.
10 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
11 MR. SCHMIDT: Due to labar costs or tax
12 reasons.
13 MR. THOMAS: We’re seeing all of that, and
14 of course the thing that I was getting around to in
15 here is that, indeed, only the Japanese can comply,
16 in effect, because virtually all of them are Japanese.
17 MR. SC}tMIDT: Right. About 90% of them are.
18 MR. THOMAS: So that’s the market, by and
19 large.
20 MR. SCHMIDT: Well, what I am saying is, I
21 represent a portion of the $2,000,000,000 after-market,
22 which will be much more hard-pressed to cope with that
23 type of regulation than the Japanese will.
24 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Now, I’m going to leave
25 this to my colleagues to pursue a little bit more.
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But what you are onto is very important to us, because
2 we don’t intend that these regulations discriminate
3 against any sector of the market. And in the
4 after-market area, Mr. Elkins preceded me with the
5 questions with regard to, are there after-market
6 exhaust systems being manufactured and sold today that
are phony, in terms of noise control, in fact, when
8 we placed, or placed on a vehicle, they actually cause
9 it to make more noise. And I think you responded and
said that we ought to get rid of those systems. They
ii ought not to be there.
12 MR. SCHMIDT: Or restrict their use.
13 MR. THOMAS: Or restrict their use?
14 MR. SCHMIDT: Competition only.
15 MR. THOMAS: Right. Fine. And we would
16 agree with that, and as now we don’t propose to
17 regulate the noise from competition motorcycles. But
is the point is, how do we do that? How do we determine
which are those systems which should properly be
20 restricted, which then goes to the heart of the matter,
21 which is the cost to you, which, as I understand it,
22 really would be the test procedure that we would use,
23 that you would have to qualify a muffler or an exhaust
24 system, for example, as to whether or not it meets the
25 standard? Have you looked at our test procedures at
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all that would be involved with after-market
2 certification?
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Our engineer was going through
4 the test procedures when we were in the process of
5 developing muffler systems to sell ourselves, and he
6 did perform those tests. But having never seen
7 actually the way the police or any enforcement agency
8 would enforce them, I don’t know how accurate they
9 were. He stood 30 inches away with it, and I ran the
10 bike, and he was testing it that way. But this was
ii late last year, and it was still kind of nebulous in
12 our minds as to how it would be done.
13 MR. THOMAS: Thank you for responding to my
14 questions.
15 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Schmidt, what is going to
17 happen on -- I believe it’s small 1 with the State of
18 Florida regulation, that you must certify to the State
19 that your products do not cause any motorcycle to
20 exceed their original equipment standards?
21 MR. SCHMIDT: Well, with all due respect to
22 the State of Florida and the Highway Patrol, nothing
23 at all.
24 MR. EDWARDS: Will you even send in papers?
25 MR. SCHMIDT: We have, because of the
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1 smoking emission control, we have backed off complete1
2 from our own exhaust program, not because of the noise,
3 but because of the smoking emission control, which I,
4 from a testing point of view, I think is quite a bit
5 more sophisticated than the noise test.
6 MR. EDWARDS: You say you backed off? You
7 mean you are not making them?
8 MR. SCHMIDT: Right now we are pulling back
9 from that, but what I am saying is that I haven’t,
10 myself, seen wholesale enforcement of noise regulations
11 already, and I have no reason, just because the
12 standard is lower on July 1, to think that they’re
13 going to, you know, be any more aggressive than they
14 have been in the past.
15 MR. EDWARDS: Will you do me a favor? Can
16 you submit to the record the letters that you got from
17 the motorcycle manufacturers relative to air emissions,
18 and what you can and cannot do?
MR. SCHMIDT: Yes, I’ll. get copies of them.
20 They were sent to the dealers, so I got a photostat of
21 one. I’ll mail it to you.
22 MR. EDWARDS: I would appreciate that.
23 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
24 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you for answering my
25 questions.
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1 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kozlowski.
2 MR. KOZLO KI: Mr. Schmidt, I am not sure
3 I understand. You are no longer in the muffler
4 business, the exhaust business?
5 MR. SCHMIDT: We manufacture chrome
6 accessories, mainly luggage racks. But for the last
7 seven or eight years we have been marketing both
s exhaust pipes and mufflers. And the thing about
9 motorcycling is what the hot tip is one year is not
io necessarily the hot tip the next year, so you are
11 constantly redesigning and trying to find something
12 else that the public will like. So we had come up witF
13 some new designs that we had desired to market this
14 year, as far as mufflers.
15 But after attending the dealer meeting in
16 Cincinnati, and some dealers were very irate and said
17 if the after-market manufacturer cannot tell us that
18 we will not be held blameless, you know, because of
19 the smoke emission, or the noise, we’re not going to
29 touch it. So rather than have that uncertainty in the
21’ minds of the dealers about any products that we sell,
22 we thought it was better to retrench until the dust
23 settles.
24 MR. KOZLOWSKI: You said something that was
25 mentioned out in the California hearings by another
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1 after-market manufacturer, that I’m not sure I agree
2 with, and therefore I want to get educated on. When
you build an after-market muffler, when you were
4 building mufflers, when you are building an
5 after-market part that replaces an original part,
6 doesn’t it perform as well in an engineering sense as
7 the original part? So if the Japanese manufacturer,
8 Suzuki, puts a muffler on, and you put a replacement
9 muffler on, doesn’t it perform as well for the owner
10 as the original?
11 MR. SCHMIDT: I think the largest part of
12 the after-market muffler sales are for performance
13 purposes, rather than to replace a worn-out muffler,
14 because it takes a certain amount of time on a street
15 motorcycle, anyway, for the stock system to deteriorate.
16 So you would buy, say, a set of Hooker Headers, or RC
17 engineering pipes, because they say you will get
18 5 or 10 more horsepower out of your machine. I don’t
19 think, except for some kids, I don’t think anyone buys
‘20 an exhaust system to make more noise. They think it’s
21 going to make them go faster, with higher horsepower,
22 and at the same time be within acceptable sound limits.
23 MR. KOZLOWSKI: I guess maybe I understand
21 what you are saying is that the increased sound that
25 comes from some of the after-market systems is the
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compensation, the price you pay for the better
performance.
MR. SCHMIDT: It’s the easy way to give you
better performance, because you are cutting back on
the back pressure that goes back through the engine,
so obviously, except for really sophisticated muffler
design, your bike will be itself more powerful with
no muffler at all. Which I don’t advocate, either.
MR. KOZLOWSKI: Some of the manufacturers --
I think Harley in its testimony said that that wasn’t
true on their bikes. I don’t know what the other
manufacturers will say, and I don’t know how it works
from model to model. But again, we’re getting back
that what you are saying, in a noise sense, is that
the after-market systems are, in fact, somewhat
inferior, because that inferiority is the compensation
you pay to get better performance, and that is why
people use the American replacement exhaust systems,
as opposed to the Japanese.
MR. SCHMIDT: Right. Well, that’s where the
enforcement problem comes in, because anything that
we as a company were not sure would pass any standard,
State or Federal standard, we put right in the
category of this muffler system may not be legal in
some States, this muffler is not approved for street
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use. And then as the gentleman said, it is human
nature, it is up to the person that is buying it to
pay attention to what we’re trying to tell him, that
he can only use it for competition, he should stay off
the road with it. And I think that’s about as far as
6 our responsibility can go.
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Are you a large firm in the
8 after-market area, or a relatively small firm?
9 MR. SCHMIDT: I’d say relatively large, yes.
10 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you very much.
H MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
12 MR. KERR: No questions.
13 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. We
14 appreciate your testimony.
15 Okay. We’ll be taking a lunch break now.
16 I’m sorry that we weren’t able to get through as many
17 of the people who indicated they’d like to speak. I
18 hope that you can stay and come back after lunch.
19 Just in case some of you who indicated you’d like to
20 speak will not be able to come back, I would hope that
21 you would take the time to write us a note. You don’t
22 have to type it. Just write it in handwriting. You
23 can send it to us by mail, or you can give it to us
24 now, if you want to do that, give it to the ladies at
25 the table. The address is a simple one.
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1 Motorcycle Noise, EPA, Washington, D.C., and the zip
2 code is 20460. Even without the zip, we’ll get it.
So it’s Motorcycle Noise, EPA, Washington, D.C. And
we will read each of those comments.
5 The reason we need to break at this point is
6 that we need to accommodate the fact that at 1:00
7 o’clock, when we reconvene, we’ll be broadcasting this
S hearing by radio. We will have two hours of testimony 1
at that time, and then at 3:00 o’clock we’ll be
10 encouraging people who are listening to the FM station
to call in and to give us their comments as well.
12 And when they all tune in at 1:00 o’clock, I want us
13 all, at least some of us to be here, to carry on the
14 hearing, and we’ll hear at 1:00 o’clock from Steven
15 Peacock. So with that, if you could all try to be
16 back here by 1:00 o’clock, if you would, we’ll hope
ii to see you at that time.
18 Thank you.
19 (Whereupon a recess was had).
20 ________________________________________
21
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1 MR. ELKINS: This hearing of the
2 Environmental Protection Agency will continue now.
As I mentioned this morning, this is the second of
4 three hearings which EPA is holding across the country
5 on motorcycle noise. We are seeking the best possible
6 advice that we can get from citizens, from industry,
7 people who ride motorcycles, people who listen to them,
8 State ar d local officials who might be involved in
9 enforcing ordinances affecting motorcycles. We want
10 to get all those views. We’re here to listen to them.
11 We’ve had a very good morning, and I’m sure
12 we’ll have an equally good afternoon. We are keeping
13 a transcript of everything that’s said here in the
14 hearing, and copies of the transcript are available.
15 You can get information on that at the table where
16 you came in. To the extent possible, we want to allow
17 people who would like to speak to do so. A number of
people have submitted cards to us asking to speak.
19 In addition, we’re very lucky today to have
20 the opportunity to be talking to a much larger
21 audience group through FM radio, and for the next two
22 or three hours, the proceedings of this hearing will
23 be broadcast, and the last hour, starting at 3:00
24 o’clock, we will accept telephone comments of people
25 who are at their homes and could not attend, but would
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i like to comment on our work here, to give us their
views.
To start off, we will, hear from Sam
4 Wigginton of Pinellas County.
5 MR. WIGGINTON: Thank you very much. First
6 of all, Mr. Peacock would like to send his apologies
7 for not being able to be here, and I will cover as
8 many of the points as he was going to, as well as I
9 can. I work for the Environmental Management
io Department of Pinellas County, and one of the
ii ordinances it is our job to enforce is the County
12 Noise Ordinance.
13 Statistically, we find that we receive on an
14 average between 1,500 and 2,000 noise complaints over
15 any given twelve-month period. Of these, 5O , on an
average, have to do with motor vehicle noise, and the
17 majority of this percentage are complaints about
18 motorcycles. We have a very limited jurisdiction
19 under our Noise Ordinance. We exclude motor-driven
20 vehicles under the ordinance, except in some cases,
21 where in cooperation with local law enforcement
22 agencies, we have been involved with noise readings
23 of off-road vehicles using vacant lots and so forth,
24 for dirt bikes and that sort of thing.
25 Because of the number of complaints we
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receive about this, we’re very happy to see the EPA
2 considering this program and involving themselves in
3 the particular question. But we do have some question
4 as far as local agencies are concerned that we’d like
5 to pose to you, to clarify some questions that we have
6 in our mind regarding local agencies and EPA’s program
7 that you are talking about today.
B First of all, correct me if I’m wrong on
9 this. It is my understanding or our understanding in
10 the Department that prior to the exhaust standards on
11 motorcycles and emission and so forth, that there was
12 established a voluntary air quality check from which
13 you derived percentages or thereabouts as to how many
14 bikes may or may not meet air quality standards and
15 80 forth.
16 If I’m correct in that, I’d like to know if
17 there was a study undertaken as to a percentage
nationwide, or if there have been any studies or
19 statistics available as to how many motorcycles,
either off-road or on-road vehicles, appear to be
21 drastically or in any manner at all in violation of
22 the decibel level that you are trying to achieve.
23 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Edwards.
24 MR. EDWARDS: So that I can answer your
25 question precisely, could you formulate it one more
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i time?
2 MR. WIGG1NTON: We’d Just like to know if
a there are statistics available as to a study on how
4 many motorcycles presently on the road would appear to
be in violation of any proposed decibel readings, or
6 would not meet the standards that you propose. Do
7 you have any idea exactly how that situation is?
8 MR. EDWARDS: By mot rcyc1es on the road,
9 are you talking about motorcycles that are available
10 for sale, or the actual population of motorcycles?
11 M It. WIGGINTON: The actual population of
12 motorcycles.
13 MR. EDWARDS: Depending on the State, we
14 have contactei different State authorities and looked
15 at the statistics, and we are using a figure of l2
16 motorcycles modified nationwide. By modified, we
V I mean modified to exceed the standards that EPA is
18 proposing to establish, the first step that EPA is
19 proposing to establish. In some States, particularly
20 where the motorcycle activity is very high, we suspect
21 in fact we’ve had reports, that the percentage is
22 considerably higher.
23 MR. WIGGINTON: Now, in regard to that,
24 also, we had some testimony earlier about post-sale
25 tampering. And in regards to motorcycle noise, we
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were wondering if it was your intention chat as part
2 of this overall, program, you would see it as an
3 inspection and maintenance type program, where local
4 agencies would be involved with possible inspections
5 of the sales of mufflers and so forth, or what was
6 being conducted, say, in motorcycle repair shops
7 throughout the country, or particularly in this County
8 for example, after the vehicle is sold, regardless of
9 whether the vehicle, you know, at the time of sale,
10 assuming the vehicle met the requirements. And we
11 were wondering if this would be establishing a local
12 agency inspection and maintenance program, whereby we
13 would be checking local motorcycle shops and so forth
14 as a total part of the package, to try to establish
15 that the standards are being met.
16 MR. ELKINS: The enforcement will be carried
17 out primarily by EPA at the manufacturer level.
18 States and localities, however, can promulgate
19 ordinances which could complement the Federal standard.
20 There are a variety of such ordinances which might be
possible. The one that you mention is a possibility.
22 Also, we have communities which want to
23 enforce against modification by having their
24 inspection, safety inspection system also include
25 noise control, and we’ve had testimony this morning
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from officials who are involved in what we call
2 pass-by testing, where you measure the noise from the
3 motorcycle as it passes by the microphone on the
4 highway or on the street, and determine on that basis
5 whether it is in violation of the local ordinance or
6 not.
7 MR. WIGGINTON: Okay. And in the State of
8 Florida -- and I don’t know how many other States have
9 it -- in the State of Florida, we have a motor vehicle
10 inspection requirement, and we are also curious as to
11 whether noise readings, to make sure the standards are
12 being met, would be conducted by local law enforcement
13 agencies or whether it would run through the motor
14 vehicle inspection as part and parcel of the motor
15 safety requirement of the vehicle when it went through
16 inspection.
17 MR. ELKINS: This would be up to the local
18 community and to the State, to see which way they
19 would like to enforce against modification. There’s
20 nothing in the Federal regulations that would require
21 a State to do anything. And what we are seeking is to
22 promulgate a rule which makes it easy for States,
23 easier for the States and localities to have rule8
24 which.cou1d be:ef.fec jve.-But it would be on a
L25 .vo1untary:basisfor each.State and locality.
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1 MR. WIGGINTON: And the last question I
2 wanted to address was one of funding and cost, and it
3 is based upon whether there would be a sharing of
4 funds for implementation of these programs on the
5 local and State level, with funding available through
6 the local agencies and governments from the Federal
7 Government? Or would the cost of implementing the
8 local programs be taken on by that local municipal
9 government or State agency wholly by themselves?
10 MR. ELKINS: There is no grant program at
ii the present time for States and localities in the
12 noise area. At the present time, in fact, this
13 morning the Senate Committee concerned with noise in
14 the U.S. Congress is considering what amendments to
15 make to the Noise Control Act, and one of the things
16 they are considering is authorizing demonstration
17 grants for EPA to give grants to communities to
18 experiment, or to show how an effective program might
be conducted. It is conceivable that through such a
20 grant program, if the Congress does act on it, that
21 EPA could help individual communities. But certainly
22 not on a nationwide basis.
23 As was also mentioned earlier this morning
24 in the hearing, at least in the State of California
25 they have a program which essentially pays for itself,’
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because of the fines which are levied through the
2 enforcement program. Those fines go into the State
3 treasury, and I believe they collect $90,000 a year,
4 and that more than pays the salaries of the people
that are carrying out the program. I guess that’s the
6 San Francisco area. So it’s possible that, depending
7 on the degree of compliance with the regulation, that
8 the program can be somewhat self-supporting, if that’s
9 what the community wants to use the money for.
10 MR. WIGGINTON: The one point I wanted to
Ii make also, on a local enforcement basis, as I
12 mentioned before, our ordinance excludes generally
motor-driven vehicles at the County level. And some
of the areas, in cooperation with law enforcement
agencies, where we do have jurisdiction, is the
Ju16 off-street vehicle, off-road vehicle, say, on vacant
17 lots and that sort of thing. And we have received a
18 lot of complaints concerning that particular area.
Enforcement of that can be handled, if we
could have the jurisdiction. Sometimes it’s difficult
21 to find them operating during the day, but we do have
22 the jurisdiction, and if we can get a general idea as
23 to when possible violations are occurring, we can
24 arrange to try to get an inspector on the site to see
what is going on.
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i Basically, that’s all the questions I was
2 asking you, was to see if there was anything in the
Federal requirements that would be in the form of a
4 directive or anything toward local agencies or
5 governments, or would there be anything that would
6 have specific guidelines set down whereby it might
7 alter or change local enforcement, and I just want to
s thank you very much for your time.
9 MR. ELKINS: Let’s see if we have any
10 questions for you. Mr. Thomas.
ii MR. THOMAS: Mr. Wigginton, you just stated
12 you have difficulty finding them operating during the
13 day. We’ve heard testimony earlier today from
14 representatives of the State Highway Patrol in Florida
15 that they don’t fool with off-road vehicles at all.
16 Are you suggesting here that the primary time where
17 you have the most problem with these is in the evening
18 then?
MR. WIGGINTON: It can vary. We have found
20 them during the day. What I meant to say, instead of
21 that, was perhaps a lot of times these violations do
22 not occur during what would be considered our normal
23 working hours. I probably phrased that incorrectly.
24 What I wanted to say was that we can be available, if
25 we can get a general concept or idea of when the
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i violation of the local ordinance is occurring. Even
though it may be occurring in the evening, or on a
3 weekend, that given the notice, and being able to try
to pinpoint an approximate time when it might be
5 occurring, we can have somebody available to check it
6 out. I’m sorry for phrasing it wrong.
7 MR. THOMAS: Then let me ask you the next
8 question, then. Who is doing your enforcing? Are
9 you using uniformed officers, County officers,
sheriffs, Environmental Protection officers?
ii MR. WIGGINTON: Law enforcement agencies,
12 as far as the on-the-street vehicles are concerned.
13 Our jurisdiction is limited under our Noise Ordinance,
14 as I mentioned. But where we do have jurisdiction,
15 it is inspectors from our Department, the Environmenta
16 Department of Pinellas County.
17 MR. THOMAS: All right.
18 MR. WIGGINTON: That would manage that.
MR. THOMAS: So in this case, then, it would
20 be non-uniformed, non-law enforcement officials,
21 enforcing your noise ordinances, then?
22 MR. WIGGINTON: Yes, sir.
23 MR. THOMAS: Now, we’re talking about
24 off-the-road vehicles only. I understand the
25 jurisdictional difference here between you and the
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State. Do you have designated areas in the County for
2 the operation of off-road bikes, mini-bikes,
moto-cross bikes, this type of thing? Do you have
4 areas where you can tell the youngsters or others
5 where they can go and ride these legitimately, without
6 bothering ar ybody?
7 MR. WIGGINTON: I am trying to think if I
8 have seen any. I’ve seen establishments in the last
9 couple of years, some bicycle moto-cross things, but
10 I don’t know, in my travels around the country, I
11 don’t recall evcr seeing a motorcycle dirt track for
12 non-competitive purposes. There may be, but I haven’t
13 run across one personally.
14 MR. THOMAS: Well, the comments that I
15 raised this aior .iing, I’d like to bring to your
16 attention again , if I may. And that is, if these
17 bikes are being sold -- and again we’re talking
18 exclusively of off-the-rcad bikes -- if they’re being
19 sold in the area, and the people who are buying them
20 either one, are unaware of the ordinances, or two,
21 don’t know where they can operate these legally,
22 legitimately, .t seems to me that we do have indeed a
23 problem that could at least partially be solved by
24 education and by teamwork between the County noise
25 officials or officials responsible for beir.g concerned
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1 with noise complaints, and the dealers who are selling
the vehicles, and then the users. And what I was
3 looking for was to see if there was any kind of a
4 program tied together there in Pinellas County.
5 MR. WICCINTON: Public education is part and
6 parcel of what we are attempting to do every day.
7 Sometimes it ends up being over the phone, when
8 somebody calls in and complain about something which
g is, you know, as I mentioned before, the majority of
io that 507. figure I mentioned earlier of noise
ii complaints concern motorcycles, and sometimes the
12 people don’t realize, until they actually get us on
13 the phone, that we have to refer them to a different
14 agency because of our jurisdictional limits.
15 I can go back to the office and run a check
16 and see what they’re doing in that regard. I have not
17 personally been involved except on a complaint basis,
18 where we have made, you know, whatever suggestions we
19 could, or have talked with people who were, you know,
20 alleged to be in violation of the Noise Ordinance.
21 We try to work with parties who are involved, as well
as with complainants, and trying to resolve the issue
23 technically under the law as it is written now, in
24 order to achieve compliance to the satisfaction of all
25 three parties involved. And it normally is an
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1 inspector who normally gets involved with it on a
2 case-by-case basis, and I do more in the general,
3 overall total picture.
4 MR. THOMAS: And I would just like to ask
5 you to do that, if you would, please, and let me just
6 give you very quickly my line of thinking, perhaps,
7 and perhaps that would enable you to help us a little
S bit more. If you got a noise complaint about an
9 off-road motorcycle in your County, and you went out
10 there, and let’s say someone was riding this in a
11 church parking lot, what would you tell them they were
12 in violation of? Presuming there’s a violation there?
13 Then what would you do in terms of other than just
14 telling them they were in violation? Is there
15 something that you could then say, well, here’s where
16 you can go and ride legitimately or without concern?
17 What kind of advice and further assistance do you
provide to them, other than just saying, “Hey, you’re
19 in violation of this ordinance”? That’s the kind of
thing I’d be looking for.
21 MR. WIGGI TON: Okay.
22 MR. THOMAS: If you could, please, sir.
23 MR. WIGGINTON: Okay, fine.
24 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
25 MR. EL1 INS: Any other questions?
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Mr. Edwards.
2 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Wigginton, if it became
3 known that a motorcycle dealer in your County was
4 routinely making modifications to motorcycles, to
5 violate the Florida statutes, whose jurisdiction would
6 that be?
7 MR. WIGGINTON: That t s a good question for
8 me. My involvement with the Noise Ordinance as an
9 inspector is related to the remedial section as
10 respects decibel violations. As I said before, if a
11 motorcycle dealer is going to be involved with the
12 sale of both on-street and off-street vehicles and so
13 forth, our jurisdiction in that regard would be
14 limited under the present Noise Ordinance. I do not
15 know whose jurisdiction that would be.
16 As an inspector, if I get called out, or
17 our department members get sent out, we are involving
18 ourselves with a particular piece of property, with
19 a particular violation occurrence at triac time. But
20 the limitations we have on this situation, in normal
21 procedure at this point in time, is to obtain the
22 reading, determine whether there is a violation or not
23 contact the property owner regarding it, and work with
24 the property owner to determine preventative inea ures
25 that he can take to prevent a recurrence, cr steps
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i that could be taken to get whatever the violation is
down to the proper decibel level we’re talking about.
3 And whereas when we did cover motor-driven
4 vehicles under the Pinellas County Noise Ordinance,
5 there was a roadside reading taken, and you had a
6 certain distance and so forth you stood back from the
7 vehicle as it passed by, and you would run measurement
that way. As far as the other noise violations are
9 concerned, we monitor and measure now from the nearest
10 adjoining property line, and depending on what the
ii zoning classification may be, whether it’s commercial
12 or residential or whatever it may be, although you
13 can’t ignore the nuisance factor, if you pace off the
14 parcel size, you may have, in any given violation,
15 the adjoining parcel may not go over the decibel level
16 that is required, although at the source it would be,
17 it could be loud and annoying, but at the nearest
18 adjoining parcel or lot line, it may not be over the
19 decibel level as required, depending on what the
20 zoning of that particular parcel is.
21 MR. EDWARDS: But you have not conducted
22 any activities relative to dealers specifically in
23 Pinellas County?
24 MR. WICGINTON: Not personally, except on a
25 complaint-by-complaint basis, where I have gone out as
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1 an inspector and had dealings with alleged violations,
2 and had a chance to discuss with people, you know,
a what was going on.
4 MR. ED 1ARDS: If I could just ask -- not of
S you, but of the gentleman from the State of Florida,
6 the Florida Highway Patrol who are still in the
7 audience -- not to answer the question now, but their
8 views on who exactly has the jurisdiction for dealers
9 who, if they become known as habitual modifiers of
10 motorcycles, in violation of the Florida statute,
11 whose jurisdiction and whose responsibility it is, if
12 they would submit that to the record, I would
13 appreciate it very much.
14 That concludes my questioning of you,
15 Mr. Wigginton.
16 MR. WIGGINTON: All right. To clarify that,
17 that was part and parcel of my earlier question
IS regarding certain aspects of the programs being
19 established here, as to whether there is thinking that
20 would define that, in regards to that preventative
21 maintenance program I was talking about, regarding
22 post-sale activities and that sort of thing. That was
23 part of the things we were trying to clarify also, on
24 a department basis, as to our stance in the matter;
25 particularly since, as I said, our jurisdiction is
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j limited.
2 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you very much.
3 MR. WICCINTON: Thank you.
4 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much, We
5 appreciate your testimony.
6 MR. WIGGINTON: Thank you.
7 MR. ELKINS: We will hear next from
s Dr. John Fletcher,
9 DR. FLETCHER: I am Professor and Director
10 of the Research Department of Ocolaryngology,
11 University of Tennessee, Center for the Health
12 Sciences in Memphis, Tennessee. I am going to, first
13 of all, set the record straight to begin with as to
14 my position. I very heartily suppo’t this proposed
15 legislation. And having cleared the decks in that
16 respect, I am now going to talk about some of the
17 aspects of communities and community noise and the
18 people involved, and why I support this regulation as
it is written.
20 By way of background, our population is
21 increasing, and as population density increases, you
22 find more recreational vehicles, more transportation
23 vehicles, more of everything. So it’s inevitable that
24 you have increases in ambient noise levels and your
25 environment noise levels,
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1 The Noise Control Act of 1972 was a very
valiant effort to get a handle on this increasing
3 environmental noise level problem. However, it was
only a handle. It needed help. And in recognition
of this, certain things are being controlled,
legislation is being written, enforcement procedures
are being set up to get control over some of the
S factors which have contributed to this increasing
9 environmental noise level.
10 It would make little or no sense to regulate
11 aviation noise and other transportation noise, trucks,
12 buses, and to leave unregulated one of the
13 contributors, and in fact, as I think testimony has
14 shown here today, and as the literature indicates,
one of the major contributors to community noise
16 complaints.
17 Now, it may be well to look into some of
18 the reasons as to the specific objections and the
19 factors which make motorcycle noise a prime candidate
20 for regulation. It’s fairly easy for a community,
21 for example, to put up signs, No Trucks Allowed in
22 this Area, and by regulation of the use of trucks, to
23 control truck noise in a very quiet neighborhood or
24 around the hospital or places where there is good
25 justification for maintaining low noise levels.
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It is not that easy for the community to
2 regulate use of motorcycles and motorbikes. I don’t
3 say that it’s impossible, but it is not a problem that
4 is as easily solved. Again, you must look to patterns
5 of usage of motorcycles. The motorcycle is not going
6 to be singled out and made an object of specific
7 scrutiny during rush-hour traffic, or it would be a
8 very rate motorcycle which would, under such scrutiny.
9 But really, it isn’t rush-hour traffic
10 where we’re getting the complaints about motorcycles,
11 because with human beings, what we find is that
12 they’re most disturbed by noises, first of all, that
13 are intermittent in nature; secondly, that come at
14 specific times, such as at night, when you’re trying
15 to rest, or early in the morning, when you’re sleep
16 level is at a very low state, and you can be easily
17 distrubed and awakened, and wouldn’t have time to go
18 back to sleep and forget that you had been awakened.
19 So the patterns of usage are such that you
quite frequently find people roaring through
21 residential neighborhoods on motorcycles at 10:00 or
12:00 P.M. It’s not at all uncommon to find
23 motorcycles operating at 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning.
24 And it may be indeed a rare person, and the person who
25 so operates this vehicle may not do it habitually.
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But it is still annoying and disturbing, and is a
2 source of complaint.
So these patterns of usage contribute
4 perhaps as much as the actual noise levels themselves,
and of course, as everyone has brought out during the
6 hearings previous to this, there are some people who
are not satisfied to use their vehicle at the levels
8 that it leaves the manufacturer. I’m not sure on a
9 day-to-day basis how that can really be taken care of.
10 I have worked with the police in Memphis
i i training them in traffic surveillance and traffic
12 noise surveillance, but we are finding it exceedingly
13 difficult to take care of the occasional offender.
14 Perhaps someocae will come up with a good solution.
15 As of this moment, I know of no one specific solution
16 that I feel I could in good conscience recommend to
17 my own community. But these are things which must be
:18 considered when you’re going to regulate.
19 Of course, in the overall standpoint, you
20 must consider the rights of people to own and have
21 recreational vehicles, or vehicles which are
22 economically feasible to operate. At the same time,
23 recognizing the rights of those living or working in
24 the areas where these vehicles operate. There must
25 necessarily be a very delicate balance between the
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rights of the two -- let me call them opposing parties
2 Now, the levels that are proposed appear
3 reasonable to me. And again, the evidence that I have
4 heard so far suggests that the manufacturers should
be able to conform with these levels reasonably well,
6 and these levels are such that they should contribute
to a cleaning up of our environment. They certainly
8 should contribute to a decrease in annoyance by our
9 citizens and in complaints and in some of the evidence
jo the material evidence of such annoyance.
11 So for all of these reasons, and more, I am
12 certainly in support of this regulation, and of course
13 if I were not, I suspect I would not have made the
14 effort to be here. But I believe that this will stop
15 one more aspect which, if not regulated, would allow
16 a condition to go on.
17 And of course, with our energy shortage as
18 it is, and our population density as it is, I would
19 suspect that there is a likelihood that assuming that
20 motorcycles can meet whatever regulations may be
21 formulated, in whatever areas that would govern their
22 manufacture, I think that the density of motorcycles
23 will increase, and if density increases and noise
24 levels are unchanged, then the average effect would
25 be an increase in noise levels.
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So I believe that is another telling
argument in favor of this regulation, or if not this
3 specific one, certainly one with the purpose of this
4 regulation, and with at least some of its provisions.
That completes my specific presentation. I’tn open to
6 questions.
MR. ELKINS: Thank you, Dr. Fletcher. Let
g me ask you the first question. I have many people who
9 say to me, why is the Federal Government in the
10 business of regulating noise? We have enough
11 regulation as it is, and we should save Federal
12 regulations for things that are really serious. After
all, noise is just an annoyance, and people can get
14 along with annoyance. Looking at all products -- not
15 just motorcycles, but looking at all noise -- is noise
16 just an annoyance, do you think?
17 DR. FLETCHER: No. And again, you must be
18 specific with regard to the levels, There’s certain
19 levels that, as far as we know, may be only annoying,
211 although the state of the art in research in this
21 area is such that we have some reason to believe that
22 possibly by virtue of the fact that a noise is
23 annoying might pose other health problems.
24 For example, let’s say that -- not that you
25 certainly would have one - but let’s say you have an
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incipient ulcer, and by virtue of being annoyed by
2 something, it is not a direct physical effect of the
3 noise upon your ear, but of the noise upon your
4 attitude and upon your -- you’re possibly tense, you
5 nay be tense and anxious and irritated, and therefore
6 aggravate this ulcer from incipient to active,
i There are other non-auditory effects of
s noise. Again, these are more suggested than very
9 strongly proved, but a study around Heathrow Airport
io in London showed that there was a higher incidence of
ii admissions to psychiatric hospitals, or requests for
12 psychiatric assistance or treatment, from people livin
13 in that area. Well, this is indicative. It is not
14 proof positive.
15 There are also scientific literature studies
16 which suggest rather strongly an aggravation of
17 existing heart conditions by noise. So with these
18 non-auditory effects, coupled with the very heavily
19 and well-documents auditory effects, I think that we
would be foolish to ignore it. I think that from a
21 health standpoint, there is plenty of evidence at
22 higher levels to worry about the operator of this
23 motorcycle.
24 I did a study some five years ago for the
National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health
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on hearing effects of non-occupational noise,
2 primarily recreation, and what I found was that of
the exposures that I studied -- namely, rock musicians
4 and chronic rock spectators, sports shooters, drag
5 racers and motorcycle and motorbike riders, the worst
6 effects on hearing were those observed upon motorcycle
7 and motorbike riders.
8 Now, there were a lot of reasons for that,
9 which I won’t go into in detail here. But this study
10 very clearly showed that these operators were
11 voluntarily subjecting themselves to levels and
12 durations of exposure which caused decrease in their
13 ability to hear. Now, of course, this effect of
14 noise upon humans is very well-documented. It’s
15 beyond question.
16 In fact, we know so well these effects that
17 if, for the average person, if we know the duration
18 and the intensity of the noise and the temporal
19 pattern of exposure, and two or three other parameters
20 we can predict how much hearing loss will occur. So
21 this is a predictable, relatively well-known
22 phenomenon.
23 MR. ELKINS: Once someone loses their
24 hearing from noise exposure, is this something that
25 they cart just take care of in their old age with a
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hearing aid?
.2 DR. FLETCHER: Noise-induced hearing loss is
what we in the trade call sensory-neural. This
4 involves destruction of the cochlea, the transducer
5 portion of the inner ear. Along with this particular
6 type of hearing loss, there are certain conditions
7 which significantly decrease the likelihood of
8 amplification or hearing aids helping the person
9 regain this hearing that he has lost.
10 First of all, it is a permanent loss of
11 hearing that is caused by chronic exposure to
12 sufficiently high intensities of sound. And because
13 of the nature of this and certain consequent aspects
14 of this loss, hearing aids frequently are not as
15 beneficial as they would be if they were for some
16 other type of hearing.
17 Does that answer your question?
18 MR. ELKINS: Yes. Let me see if other
19 members of the panel may have questions. Henry Thomas
20 MR. THOMAS: Dr. Fletcher, you mentioned in
21 your prepared remarks that in the travel stream rush
22 or travel stream, the motorcycle wouldn’t stand out,
23 wouldn’t be particularly noticeable. There don’t
24 seem to be many complaints there. We recognize that
25 using the LDN descriptor, that based on the volume of
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motorcycles in the country, as an overall contributor
2 to environmental noise, the motorcycle is pretty far
3 down on the list.
4 On the other hand, when we’ve got relatively
s low ambient noise level, the suburban community, for
6 example, a single-event motorcycle pass-by, even
certainly of 78 -- and obviously, the higher up we
S go to the higher decibel level3 of the motorcycles,
9 that noise clearly stands out as a single event.
jo Now, I would ask you, sir, as a professional
11 in this business, what kind of descriptor indicators
12 should we properly be using to measure or try to
13 quantify the effects of those kind of single events,
14 such as a mot’ rcycle pass-by?
15 DR. FLETCHER: This is something that’s
16 getting quite a bit of attention. As you, I’m sure
17 are very well aware, there are so many different
18 descriptions, and some are more relevant to one
situation and some to another. Because of the
20 transient nature of motorcycle pass-by noise, if you
21 will, it poses a very significant problem in
quantifying and accurately predicting response.
23 Well, let’s talk about levels, just for
24 example, let’s talk about L-50, a level that is
25 exceeded 507. of the time. That’s a very commonly used
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1.) 4
1 level. Well, a third-floor apartment next to a
2 freeway, according to the information that I have
3 available to me, averages out at about 78 DBA for an
4 L-50. But that’s an L-50. 507 of the time, there
will be a level higher than that.
6 Now, when we get these motorcycles down to
83 OB, 80 DB, and then to 78 DB, when it’s at 83 DB
8 in this L-50 environment, that’s going to be a very
9 noticeable sound. Therefore, just getting the sound
10 level of 80 DB, not to exceed 80 DB, this isn’t really
ii going to tell you how well a person living in that
12 third-floor apartment next to that freeway at 2:00 in
13 the morning is going to pick up that motorcycle.
14 And I am not sure that I am that satisfied
15 with any single predictor that I believe would cover
16 this. This, in some ways, I think that motorcycle
17 noise is rather unique, because of its temporal
18 pattern and its spectral characteristics. And when
19 you find something that’s unique, you don t t just take
20 something off the shelf and modify it immediately.
21 So I don’t really have any personal choice that I feel
gives me that much information. When I have to answer
23 a specific question in this area, I generally go
24 directly to human beings and to a setup which is
25 exactly that that I want to study, and do it in that
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1 fashion.
2 MR. THOMAS: I’ve got one follow-on to that,
sir. That is, is trying to quantify sleep awakenings
and sleep disturbances scientifically a practicable
5 way to go about trying to quantify the single event?
6 DR. FLETCHER: Well, I’m not sure I know.
7 It may well be that your definition of practicable
and mine would not coincide. First of all, I think
9 that practicable from the standpoint of can we do it
10 scientifically, my answer would be yes, we can do that
ii Now, if practicable means meaningful and worthwhile,
12 from a standpoint of showing effects from various
13 stimuli, I would be inclined to support that, too,
14 because my own personal feeling, anJ that that I see
15 from a lot of my acquaintances and see revealed in
16 literature, is that interruption of sleep is
17 considered to be rather significant, not only from a
18 health standpoint, but from a well-being, physical
‘19 well-being, quality-of-life standpoint.
20 And somewhere or another, and in some way
21 or another, - — and I believe this is a step in that
22 direction -- we must make the effort and have some
23 succezs in not only stopping the deterioration of our
24 quality of life due to various environmental insults
that are within control, but we must restore it to
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some of the previous levels before it got as bad as
2 it is now.
3 MR. THOMAS: Thank you, sir.
4 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Ron Naveen.
5 MR. NAVEEN: Dr. Fletcher, in your
6 professional opinion, do these proposed standards
7 protect the public health and welfare absolutely?
8 MR. FLETCHER: You tLave asked me a question
9 that I am extremely reluctant to give an answer to,
10 because of one word in your question. You said
11 “absolutely.”
12 MR. NAVEEN: I said that word intentionally.
13 DR. FLETCHER: All right. Then I will
14 intentionally say that I do not believe that we can do
15 anything absolutely; or if we do, that some of the
16 consequences would be such that we would prefer not to
17 have done. So my answer to you ‘will have to be, no.
MR. NAVEEN: That’s the answer I hoped you
19 would have been giving to me.
20 DR. FLETCHER: I’m sorry about that.
2! MR. NAVEEN: No, no, no. That’s the one I
22 expected. The reason is that this section of the
23 Noise Act which we’re working on here provides that
24 we protect the public health and welfare, but that
25 in doing so we take into account the best available
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i technology, and the cost. EPA has recognized in all
2 of its new product standards the levels which we have
3 defined and identified many years ago as being
4 absolutely protective are not the levels to which
5 we’re proposing to regulate here.
6 And I just simply want to make the point
7 that many manufacturers have accused us of being tough
8 on them in these proposed regulations and with other
9 proposed noise regulations. Some of us here believe
10 that we wish we could do more to protect the health
it and welfare, but we have these two constraints which
12 we must take into account. So I understand the
13 statement you have made, and that is more or less what
14 I was expecting to hear. I don’t b’ lieve we have
15 absolutely protected it, either. And the questions
16 that we’re trying to examine here is knowing what is
17 necessary to protect the public health and welfare,
18 have we done so, given the technology that’s out there
19 and the costs that are out there, which Congress told
20 us to identify.
21 DR. FLETCIIER: 1 don’t claim any expertise,
either, in the economics of this, or in the technical
23 aspects of the noise reduction process and so forth.
24 But from the area of the effects on humans, to my
25 knowledge of what sound levels are in current
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1 environments, be they urban, rural, what-have-you, I
2 fee]. that this should be very acceptable from both
3 sides of the house. And I support it, believing it
4 to be that.
MR. NAVEEN: I have no further questions.
6 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kozlowski.
7 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Dr. Fletcher, I, too, am
concerned about the common misconception that noise
9 is only an annoyance, and would like to follow up
10 Mr. Elkins’ question along the lines of what kind of
ii adverse effects it would have. In a general way,
12 could one have adverse health effects at an 83-decibel
13 level?
14 DR. FLETCHER: This is DBA?
15 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Yes.
16 DR. FLETCHER: And the answer is, we can
17 have, first of all, we can have hearing loss at
18 83 DBA. Now, the likelihood of hearing loss at 83 is
19 less than it would be at 85, much less than it would
20 be at 88. And again, it would be a function of an
21 awful lot of variables. But susceptibility to noise-
induced hearing loss, for example, as best we know,
23 is probably a normal probability function, bell-shaped
24 curve, you’re going to find some people that you can
25 almost literally snap your fingers a couple of times,
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and this would cause their hearing to shift.
2 You will find other people -- and I’ve
documented this -- that were in their late forties,
they had twenty-some-odd years as range operators,
5 firing 105 and 155 cannons, almost daily. Normal
6 hearing. So they’re at the other end of the continuum.
7 So you will find, very rarely, but you will find
8 someone way down here that’s going to be affected by
9 any kind of exposure for any significant period of
10 time, even at 83 DBA.
11 MR. KOZLOWSKI: Thank you, sir.
12 DR. FLETCHER: But again, by lowering this
13 from 88, or whatever the levels may be at the moment,
14 you are very drastically decreasing the number of
15 people who would be affected. So lowering this, I
16 can see no adverse effect from lowering it. And you
17 are helping preserve the hearing, certainly, of the
18 operators, and certainly even of some of the innocent
19 bystanders and passersby.
29 MR. KOZLOWSKI: That’s all.
21 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much,
22 Dr. Fletcher. We appreciate your coming here today
23 and giving us this testimony and your expertise in
24 this area of effects of noise on people.
25 DR. FLETCHER: Thank you.
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MR. ELKINS: It’s been very helpful to us.
We will hear next from Marty Schwebel of
3 Orange County.
4 MR. SCHWEBEL: First of all, let me state
that I am here representing the Orange County
6 Pollution Control Department, the agency responsible
for administration of local pollution-type regulations
8 within cur County, and we’re located approximately
100 miles or so from St. Petersburg, in the central
io part of the State.
ii For some time we’ve been investigating a
12 local noise ordinance, and have been working with
13 the State of Florida people and some people out of
14 the Atlanta office of EPA. Our ordinance is currently
15 in the planning stages, but what I’d like to bring
16 you this afternoon is a sampling of the kinds of
17 complaints that we do get, many of which are related
to motor vehicle operation, and specifically
19 motorcycles.
20 We do not get all that many complaints
2! about motorcycles on public right-of-way, and I guess
22 that’s either partially due to the police oversight,
23 possibly people knowing about the existing regulations
24 on the public right-of-way, but we do get complaints
25 about the dirt bikes operating off-road, back in the
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i woods. In a lot of cases, canals have to be dug to
2 lower the water table in the area, so the ditches
3 would be built, and we find that these canals are in
4 constant need of maintenance, and a very nice dirt
5 path is made alongside the canals, which makes a nice
6 straight runway for these little dirt bikes to get
7 off into the woods and do some running.
8 And oftentimes, this backs right up to a
9 subdivision, and naturally, all the residents in this
10 particular area are impacted by the dirt bikes running
11 up and down the canal access. We have had actually
12 a fairly small number of total noise complaints, due
13 primarily to the fact that we don’t have an actual
14 noise ordinance on the books. The Orange County
15 Sheriff’s Office also receives motor vehicle noise
16 complaints and off-road noise complaints. They are
17 currently in the same situation we are, that we can’t
really enforce any regulations, since we don’t have
them.
The Sheriff does have a nuisance-type
21 ordinance, which is an after-ten-in-the-evening-
22 distrubing-the-peace-type of ordinance. This is, of
23 course, not -— it doesn’t usually affect dirt bikes,
24 because you don’t find them running in the woods after
25 dark that often. One of the things that we’ve noticed
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from time to time, every time the issue has surfaced
2 in Orange County -- and it’s come up three or four
3 times over the course of the last three years -- the
4 press have given us fairly adequate coverage, and each
5 time we do get coverage, there’s a flurry of
6 complaints, which manages to trickle in over, say, a
7 two-month period.
s Then when the word begins to get around that
9 there is no effective ordinance, there’s really
10 nothing that can be done to eliminate the problem,
ii then the complaints start to taper away, and we find
12 ourselves with long periods of no complaints. I
13 attribute this not to the fact that the sources of
14 the noise are not there, but people are aware of the
15 fact that there are no regulations that can be
16 applied.
17 In cases where we have run out and attempted
18 to arbitrate noise complaints, we have approached the
19 situation very cautiously and attempted to inform the
quote violator -- and I have to put it in quotes,
21 since there is no regulation being violated -- we have
22 attempted to inform that person or company, whatever
23 the case may be, that there is a potential for this
24 individual causing severe annoyance, or even hearing
25 harm to nearby property owners, nearby residents, and
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that we have had a very good success rate with the
2 few cases that we’ve attempted to arbitrate in this
manner.
4 Usually, we have been able, though, to
5 achieve compliance with EPA recommended levels and
6 DER recommended levels for residential areas, without
having an actual ordinance on the books. One question
8 I wanted to ask was, assuming that this EPA noise
9 level section passes, are the State and local
10 governments then expected to propose acceptable
11 programs to the EPA for handling, much the same as
12 air pollution and water pollution programs have had
13 to be approved for each State?
14 MR. ELKINS: No, there is nothing in the
15 l- iv that we operate under that requires any State or
16 local programs to be approved by EPA. This is simply
17 a voluntary basis. Any community can have any in-use
18 control that it would like. We would hope, in line
19 wit ’i some of the testimony this morning, to give some
general guidance, so that there’d be some uniformity
21 across the country.
MR. SCI-IWEBEL: Do you see the possibility
23 of a national standard c?linhinating the need for
24 different muffler syscems? I believe this morning I
25 heard that certain muffling systems can be sold in
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certain States, and not in others, and that therefore
I
2 manufacturers have to run double and triple
inventories of different types, to be sold in
3
4 different States. Would a national standard really be
5 cost-effective for the manufacturers and consumers,
also?
6
7 MR. ELKINS: Well, we certainly, I think,
8 would see a decrease in the nu iiber of different lines
of exhaust systems that would be available. They
10 would all have to conform with the Federal standards.
11 I think that would in some way be an advantage to the
12 manufacturerS, as you mentioned, yes.
MR. SCHWEBEL: These are basically all the
13
14 thoughts I wa’ ited to share with you on the Orange
15 County experience, which, as I say, has been rather
16 limited.
MR. ELKINS: We appreciate very much your
17
18 coming and being with us. Let me see if there are
19 any questions from the panel. Thank you very much for
20 coming.
21 We’ll hear next from Hazel Orr, from the
22 Council of Neighborhood Associations. Is she here?
23 Good.
While you’re coming up, I’ll remind those
24
25 who are listening on the radio that in about one hour,
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at 3:00 o’clock, we will be taking calls, and we want
2 to hear your comments, as well as those who are in the
3 audience.
4 Mrs. Orr, glad to have you.
5 MRS. ORR: Thank you. My name is Hazel Orr.
6 I am President of the Council of Neighborhood
7 Associations of Pinellas County, and I would like to
s say as follows:
9 We, the Council of Neighborhood Associations
10 representing 21 homeowners’ associations in Pinellas
i i County, at our general meeting on Wednesday, May 3,
12 adopted the following resolution unanimously:
13 Whereas, Florida DER has more stringent
14 rules than the Federal EPA, and whei.eas, Florida is
15 further ahead in its implementary stages than other
16 States, we commend the EPA and endorse their efforts.
17 Therefore, we strongly recommend having the rules and
18 enforcement at the lowest possible State level, that
19 now being done by the DER. in Tallahassee, which now
20 has two employees, that could effect enforcement, as
21 opposed to three in the Southeast region. Also, we
22 would strongly suggest that the acceptable decibel
23 level be even lowered, and that the Federal Covernmnent
24 stop granting the numerous special exceptions applied
25 for. Signed on behalf of the Board by myself.
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Thank you. iAny questions?
MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. Thank you
3 for coming.
4 We’ll hear next from Phil Peterson, who is
a Harley-Davidson dealer from Miami.
6 MR. PETERSON; Hi. Well, let me qualify
7 myself. I’m Phil Peterson. I’m a Harley-Davidson
s dealer in Miami. I have been a Harley-Davidson dealer
9 in Florida since 1954. I have been riding motorcycles
10 for thirty-three years. Could be thirty-seven, but
11 the Navy got four years of my motorcycle time.
12 I am disturbed with all the things I hear,
13 as I’m worried about what’s going to happen to my
14 first love, motorcycling. I really believe that the
15 manufacturers now have exceeded all of the regulations
16 and standards, I know that Harley’-Davisons are too
17 quiet. I mean, they’re allowed 83 decibels, and I
18 believe we’re around 81 or 81½. I think if we would
stay at that level, that it would be very livable.
The problem is, of course, the people that
2! tamper with the exhaust systems, and if that cculd be
regulated some way, it would save us all. The biggest
23 complaints in our area is we don’t have a lot o.Z
24 off-road riding being in Miami, in a metropolitan
25 area. Gets pretty hard to ride off of the roads.
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1 There’s either water or sand or alligators or
2 something. So we don’t get a lot of that type of
complaints on those off-road motorcycles. And now
that there isn’t a lot of small motorcycles around,
some of the smaller kids, I believe that that’s
6 quieted down a lot, the neighborhood complaints.
7 I have ridden, as I say, for years. I
8 raced motorcycles, where we race the big
I 9 Harley -Davidsons, where we had open exhaust systems
io and everything, and we had a class here at one time
11 where we raced as many as fifty 15,000 cc sports at
12 one time, all with open exhausts, on a race course,
13 of course, in West Palm Beach. But I’ve never heard
14 of anybody going deaf from the noise, and we would be
15 the most exposed.
16 Any easy questions?
17 MR. ELKINS: Well, your idea about the
18 alligators made me think, maybe if we had some
19 alligators up here where it’s been testified we have
20 people riding off-road here, maybe that’s the best
21 control system we could ever have. I’m not sure that
22 is socially desirable.
23 But talking about the tampering, what can
24 dealers do to help discourage people from doing this
tampering? And the second part of the question, are
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there some dealers who are contributing to the problem
MR. PETERSON: Well, I wouldn’t say it’s
3 really dealers. It’s these -- we call them chopper
4 shops, places where they don’t do any service, they
5 just sell you whatever you want to buy. Then the
6 fellows take it home and install it themselves, I
think they hurt us a little. But our Florida Dealers
8 Organization has recognized this problem long ago, as
much as three years ago or so, and we all made
10 resolutions that we wouldn’t sell altered systems that
11 weren’t certified for the State, straight pipes and
12 those things, except for competition use.
13 I still stock probably one Set of straight
14 pipes in my store for a big motorcycle, but we sell
15 them across the counter, and the fellow signs the
statement saying that it will be for competition use
only, as we in Harley-Davidson are pretty big in drag
is racing, and this is essential to a dragging motorcycle.
19 1 think that if all the dealers recognized
20 that we’re hurting ourselves by selling loud pipes or
21 altered exhaust systems that don’t meet the standards,
22 that we’re just killing it for ourselves. Even
23 altered exhaust systems, though, when I was a little
24 younger, I used to ride with loud pipes, what people
25 would call loud, But if you don’t really, you know,
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rev it up at a light or make a lot of noise pith it,
2 why, I never had any complaints on it. I’m just
a trying to say it’s possible to keep the noise down
4 with loud pipes, with no muffling system.
5 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Thomas,
6 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Peterson, you have been a
7 Harley dealer for some time?
MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
9 MR. THOMAS: Do you perceive as a dealer in
10 this business -- let me ask you this -- do you sell
11 anything other than Harley-Davidson?
12 MR. PETERSON: No, sir.
13 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Do you perceive that
14 there is a problem today with motorcycle noise?
15 MR. PETERSON: Yes, but I think it’s
16 diminishing.
17 MR. THOMAS: Why do you think that, sir?
18 MR. PETERSON: Well, as I was saying, there
19 isn’t as many small motorcycles. The biggest proble n,
20 as I see it in our area, for example, we used to sell
21 a small motorcycle, under 3 horsepower, and parents
22 would buy it for their little seven-year-old kid, with
23 the idea that on the weekends they’d load i.t in the
station wagon and take it out in the boonies some
25 place and ride around, and that the kid wasn’t
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supposed to touch it in the meantime.
2 First thing you know, the father’s working,
the mother’s working, the boy takes it out of the
4 garage, with his little friends around, starts riding
it. They ride it through the neighbor’s lawns and so
6 forth. And then this starts a chain reaction, in that
7 neighborhood. Then this little boy says, “Well,
s Johnny’s got one, and the cops don’t bother him, and
9 he can ride it, and he’s only seven, and he stays in
io his father’s property,” and it snowballs, and with no
ii exaggeration, like pretty soon, there’s like 25 little
12 motorcycles in the neighborhood. And then you come
13 into natural competition, and pretty soon they can
14 go faster, they pull off the muffler or something.
15 And this is where I have found personally most of the
16 biggest problems.
17 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. Are you familiar
with the Florida Standards for Motorcycle Noise?
19 MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
MR. THOMAS: You know what’s going to happen
21 in the future, then, with those levels, unless U.S.
22 EPA is involved?
23 MR. PETERSON: Yes. I’m worried about it.
24 MR. THOMAS: If the next level of noise
control that the State of Florida has on its books
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right now, which is going to be 80 decibels, goes into
2 effect, Mr. Peterson, will you still be in business?
3 MR. PETERSON: Yes.
4 MR. THOMAS: Why?
5 MR. PETERSON: Harleys never die.
6 Harley-Davidson has been around for a long time.
7 Whether they can manufacture them or not, there’ll
$ still be Harley-Davidsons. They still have to be
9 worked on, and engine parts sold and so forth.
MR. THOMAS: So it would take quite awhile,
11 then, for you to be going out of business?
12 MR. PETERSON: Me personally, yes. But I’d
13 worry about the Harley-Davidson Motor Company, as I
14 think they would be really hurting.
is MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. Well, we worry a
16 little bit about them, from time to time, too. But we
ii are as concerned with the Harley dealers, such as
1$ yourselves, who are only selling one line, which is
19 Harley-Davidson. So you don’t have another line or
20 other lines to fall back on?
21 MR. PETERSON: No, sir.
22 MR. THOMAS: Do you sell after-market system ,
23 other than Harley systems?
24 MR. PETERSON: Yes.
25 MR. THOMAS: Is that unique to you? Or do
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in,
1 you find that to be the case with your other Harley
2 dealers?
3 MR. PETERSON: That’s pretty general, I’d
4 say. We only sell certified systems that are supposed
5 to meet the Code. Just for looks, really, sir.
6 MR.. THOMAS: Yes, sir.
7 MR. PETERSON: You know, the Harley-
$ Davidson, we all think they should look a certain way,
9 you know, staggered duals, V-twin, the clean narrow
10 look. And as soon as you change some of that, he gets
11 all upset and he wants that look again.
12 MR. THOMAS: It was my impression,
13 Mr. Peterson, that one of the key selling points of
14 the Harley-Davidson is that unique low throaty
15 rumbling sound that comes out of the Harley. Would
16 you agree with that?
17 MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
18 MR. THOMAS: So it is not just a sleek look.
19 It is that unique sound affecting Harley?
MR. PETERSON: Well, it does affect them,
2! yes. But the look, I would say, looks would be
22 number one.
23 MR. THOMAS: Looks are number one?
24 MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
25 MR. THOMAS: If Harley can’t keep that
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unique low rumbling throaty sound -- I can’t quote it
2 exactly as it is in the advertisement, but something
like that ——
4 MR. PETERSON: Yes.
5 MR. THOMAS: If they can’t keep that sound,
6 do you think it will affect their sales? Your sales?
The Harley?
8 MR. PETERSON: Yes, yes, I do. I really do.
9 Because I have so many people who say, “Well, I’m
10 riding a brand X, but I sure love the sound of those
11 Harleys, you know.”
12 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Peterson, the stock muffler
13 exhaust system on a Harley-Davidson today --
14 MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
15 MR. THOMAS: If you were to replace that
16 with straight pipes, would that improve the
17 performance on the Harley?
18 MR. PETERSON: I don’t believe so. We’ve
19 come out with the new 1979 already, to meet the new
20 pollution standards, and so we put a dual exhaust on
21 them, with the Siamese, both mufflers, and we, of
22 course, are not supposed to alter these at all, and I
23 haven’t -- most everybody accepts them that way, and
24 it hasn’t seemed to hurt their performance at all.
25 As a matter of fact, it has picked it up over some of
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1 our previous systems, such as our ‘75, 176 exhaust
2 systems.
3 MR. THOMAS: Are you telling your buyers of
4 Harleys that the straight pipe would not make the
motorcycle perform better?
6 MR. PETERSON: Yes, I am telling them that.
7 MR. THOMAS: Have you received literature
$ from Harley-Davidson that would support this, that in
fact this straight pipe would not necessarily make the
10 bike perform better?
11 MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
12 MR. THOMAS: You have?
13 MR. PETERSON: Yes. As a matter of fact,
14 Harley used to sell straight pipes for racing
motorcycles. In other words, I could order them for
16 racing motorcycles, and sell them across the counter.
But you can’t even buy them even through the Racing
18 Department any more. Harley-Davidson pulled all that
19 off the market.
20 MR. THOMAS: I’ve got one last question for
21 you, sir. It’s rather suggestive. Do you think
22 Harley buyers really believe you and Harley-Davidson,
23 that they won’t perform better with the straight pipe?
24 MR. PETERSON: Depends on the person, really.
25 It depends on the guy.
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1 MR. THOMAS: Thank you very much.
MR. PETERSON: Yes, sir.
MR. ELKINS: Scott Edwards, do you have any
4 questions?
5 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Peterson, at the new quiet
6 sound levels for Harley-Davidsons, have you noticed
7 customer complaints or other comments, “Gee, this
8 isn’t icud enough, and hence I won’t buy it any more”?
9 MR. PETERSON: Well, they complain about the
10 different sound. Now, we only have two cylinders, so
11 it has a distinct two-cylinder sound. We have two
12 cylinders with two big pistons, so they really do make
13 a distinct sound, and of course that is muffled now.
14 You can’t hear that sound any more. Yes, I’ve had
15 older riders complain about that.
16 MR. EDWARDS: So it is your feeling that if
17 you had to go down further from a performance
18 standpoint, that your sales could conceivably be hurt
19 further?
MR. PETERSON: Yes, I believe they would be,
21 yes.
22 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you.
23 MR. PETERSON: They would. Make the older
24 ones more valuable.
25 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Kerr.
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1 MR. KERR: Mr. Peterson, I have one question
2 You mentioned in your testimony that you and other
3 Harley-Davidson dealers have agreed to only sell
4 certified parts for the proper bikes. Our program
5 proposes a very similar strategy as that, in that all
6 replacement exhaust systems would be identified for
the bike that they’re manufactured for, and on which
8 they’d meet the standards. My question is, from your
9 experience as a dealer in motorcycles, do you think
10 that a program like that would be generally accepted
ii by dealers across the country, to insure that those
12 mufflers are getting to the right bikes?
13 MR. PETERSON: Yes, I believe so. It would
14 be hard to do, though, but I think it would be
15 accepted. But you said Harley-Davidson dealers. I
16 didn’t infer that or mean that. When I talked about
17 the dealers’ organization, it was all Florida dealers.
18 MR. KERR: Okay.
19 MR. PETERSON: I am also a member of that.
20 That is where those came up.
21 MR. KERR: Thank you. That’s my only
22 question.
23 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Peterson, we really
24 appreciate your coming here and giving your views,
25 It’s helpful to have them.
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1 MR. PETERSON: Would you repeat that, please
2 A truck was going by. I didn’t hear.
3 MR. THOMAS: It won’t make that much noise
4 next year, because they’re getting quieter.
5 MR. ELKINS: We’ll hear now from Ed Ryan.
6 What Mr. Thomas is referring to, if you go
7 into a local shop now to buy an 18-wheeler, which I’m
8 sure you do every year, your 18-wheeler will be
9 quieter than it was last year. As of January 1, it
10 had to be quieter than it has been before.
ii Mr. Ryan.
12 MR. RYAN: How do you do, sir. My name is
13 Ed Ryan. My home is in Dubuque, Iowa. I’m the
14 Project Director for the NRTA and AARP Title IX
15 Program. The Title IX Program is called Senior
26 Community Service Employment Project. And I’m here
17 today to represent the National Retired Teachers’
18 Association and the American Association of Retired
19 Persons and their over-eleven-million-dues-paying
members.
2! Our organization has 2,888 Chapters across
22 the country, and the purpose of these organizations
23 is to provide information and service to retired
24 persons over fifty-five years of age. These include
prescription drug service, various forms of insurance
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181
coverage -- and I will not entertain any questions on
our insurance problems -- tax consulting services,
3 leisure and recreational information, a variety of
4 potential employment referral programs and voluntary
5 service activities.
6 It has been the NRTA and AARP policy to
7 support quality-of-life legislation that directly or
8 indirectly impacts on our nearly twelve million
9 members. Environmental protection programs represent
one of these areas of particular interest. Congress
has declared that it is the policy of the United
12 States to promote an environment where all Americans
13 will be free from noise that jeopardizes their health
14 or welfare. The bottom line of my testimony today is
to fully support, on behalf of the NRTA and AARP,
16 your proposed regulation of motorcycles. We are
17 living longer, and we need the help of quality of life
18 promised.
Excuse me. I have brought a cold with me
from Iowa, and I hope Florida will take care of it.
21 MR. ELKINS: If you drink some orange juice,
22 I understand it’s good for you.
23 MR. RYAN: As I said, we are living longer
24 and we need the help of quality of life promised.
25 The elderly who have homes and don’t want to leave
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them, who have been living in a certain area, in a
2 certain way, under a very fixed income. The elderly,
by and large, are living in the inner-cities, and they
can’t move.
5 Assistant Administrator Hawkins has stated
6 that just about every survey of local communities puts
7 motorcycle noise near the top of the list as the sourc
$ of annoyance. And I’m here to tell you that the
9 elderly city dwellers will agree with him a hundred
10 percent. The elderly are captives of their environmen
They can’t move. Reducing motorcycle noise will
12 definitely make their lives more bearable. Because
13 the effectiveness of the State and local programs will
14 depend on effcctive Federal action, it is extremely
is important that you not back off on your final
16 regulation.
17 Without strong regulatory programs, what can
18 the elderly do about motorcycle noise? How in the
19 world are they going to be heard? What is a woman,
20 for instance, who lives on Social Security, or a
21 gentleman who is beneath the poverty level, to do about
22 it? And who can they turn to? They can only call the
23 City authorities where competent legislation exists.
24 That is why we fully support the labeling provisions
25 of your proposed regulation.
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1 Labeling motorcycles and replacement muffler
2 systems will enab.e local jurisdictions to easily
3 determine if local ordinances are being violated.
4 The labeling provisions in your proposed legislation
5 provide for better enforcement of noise ordinances,
6 and will help make life better for many of our elderly
7 who are captives to inner-city noise.
8 When people walk in the door of my office,
9 I can almost tell you where they’ve been working all
10 their lives, where they’ve been living, their skin,
11 their attire, their attitude, their eyesight, and most
12 importantly and easiest to recognize is their hearing
13 ability, or specifically, the loss of hearing.
14 Now, noise and vibration can irritate,
15 and it can kill. Noise is also a cumulative evil.
16 So much so that it can create a person who is ill and
17 unhappy without them even knowing why. Motorcycle
noise is a part of that evil, especially for the
19 elderly who cannot escape it. Now, you have to protec
20 we, the people, and one way you are going to be able
21 to do it is to carry through with your proposed
22 motorcycle regulations, with the labeling provisions,
23 to facilitate noise control at the State and local
24 levels.
25 I’m delighted to be here and to speak to you
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1 and tell you what the nearly twelve million elderly
2 people in our organization want. We want a quieter
3 world. In fact, we demand that you stop this noise
4 pollution. We’re living in a noisy age, and it’s
5 going to require action on all government levels and
6 by concerned citizens’ groups, as well as individuals.
7 We believe motorcycle noise can be regulated without
g destroying the desirability of biking. Loudness is
9 not a desired quality, and bikes are being made to be
10 ridden, not to make noise.
11 Speaking for the NRTA and the AARP, we will
12 help you in promoting and with communications. I, as
13 the Project Director, can help EPA. I have offered
14 to EPA our projects help. We want to make the
15 motorcycle regulations as effective as possible. Now,
16 there are ninety individuals, NRTA and AARP Senior
17 Citizen Project Directors, at project sites from 26
18 States and Puerto Rico. We will organize and give to
19 you a program in these areas where we have our
20 projects. Wepropose placing anelderly citizen on
21 the job as Noise Counselor. We will go out and talk
to people, organizations, who will listen to people.
23 We will open the phone line to these people. And as
24 these problems come in, we’ll direct thein.to the
25 authorities, and we will ask for an answer from these
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1 authorities. We’ll send these results to the EPA, and
2 we’ll expect action.
3 Our Senior Community Service Employment
4 Project is a part of the NRTA and AARP. The money
5 given us to put the elderly to work will allow us to
6 assist the EPA in getting a feedback from people.
7 That’s the communication I want to speak to you about.
8 We urge you to take a look at our proposed program,
9 so we can furnish you with the cocnxnunications from
10 people in our cities and areas across this country.
11 For example, my project out at Dubuque,
12 Iowa, covers the Northeastern part of the State of
13 Iowa. We reach many people in cities of all sizes,
14 typical Americans wishing to protect the quality of
15 their lives. Our proposed program of noise counselors
16 will give the EPA a voice from the people, and most
17 particularly from the elderly, and this work will be
18 done by the elderly.
19 In conclusion, lec me again express our
20 àoncern over the increased levels of noise pollution
21 and over the importance of reducing motorcycle noise.
22 It will make the lives of a great number of elderly
‘23 citizens more bearable in the inner-cities. We will
24 do our part through our noise counselors to make sure
25 that motorcycle regulations are enforced. I thank you,
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1 and the nearly twelve million members of our
2 organizations thank you.
3 Any questions?
4 MR. ELKThS: Thank you, Mr. Ryan. I have in
front of me here a letter that was sent in to us in
6 conjunction with this hearing, and something in it
7 strikes me as being something you might want to commen
8 on. This is from Mr. Reefer, in Palm Harbor, Florida.
9 It says:
10 The sound of motorcycle noise is the most
11 irritating noise known to man. Have you ever had a
12 motorcycle stop alongside your car at a signal light?
13 There is no escape. Can you imagine what the noise
14 does to a person wearing a hearing aid? My
15 mother-in-law would literally scream when a motorcycle
16 went by. She had a hearing problem.
17 Have you noticed people who have hearing
18 aids reacting to noise in a different way than other
19 people do?
20 MR. RYAN: After the first time, sir, they
21 dodge and quickly grab the switch and turn it down,
22 because they know what is going to happen. Yes, sir.
23 If you have a hearing loss, and think a hearing aid
24 is going to help it, I remember a boss I had, and I
25 didn’t particularly like him, and he carried a hearing
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aid. So when we didn’t want to communicate too well
2 with that man, one of us would just crinkle a piece of
3 paper behind our back. That was enough to send him
back to the office for another hour.
5 Hearing aids are a beautiful,, beautiful
6 thing. And incidentally, I think a motorcycle is a
7 beautiful thing. I think that there is a great need
s for motorcycles in the coming economy, in our coming
9 energy talks, and the cost of fuel. Most certainly a
10 motorcycle is something we shouldn’t loose. And
11 frankly, I think the manufacturers of motorcycles are
12 crazy that they don’t try to promote that angle of it.
13 They get off the hills and get the clubs trying to
14 gang up on people -- I don’t mean literally, physically
15 or anything, but they just go in groups through
16 communities and through towns.
17 And I represent nearly twelve million people,
18 and these twelve million are just plain saying to the
19 motorcycle industry, “Get with it.” You are going to
20 have to learnto live, and these twelve million people
21 are, gentlemen, are just a fifth. We have fifty
22 million people in this nation that are elderly.
23 Hopefully, they’re going to go political one of these
‘24 days, and learn how to register and vote. As you can
25 guess, I am an elderly citizen.
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1 MR. ELKINS: Let me see if other panel
2 members have questions for you. We appreciate your
3 testimony very much. Thank you.
4 MR. RYAN: I appreciate the offer to come
5 here. Thank you.
6 MR. ELKINS: We have a number of people in
7 the audience who this morning indicated they would
8 like to testify, and also some this afternoon. I’ll
9 call your names, and if you are here, we’d like to hear
10 from you. And I’d like to remind you that in about
ii half an hour, we’ll be taking calls from the radio
12 audience. But we’ll now hear comments from the
13 audience.
14 Beverly Hernpstead.
15 MISS HEMPSTEAD: My name is Beverly Hempstead.
16 I’m the American Motorcycle Association Congressman
17 for the State of Florida, and I am also the Competition
18 Chairman for the State of Florida. I do agree we need
19 quiet motorcycles. The manufacturers themselves have
20 even taken steps on their own to make this happen.
21 The part I disagree with is the way in which these
22 hearings are held and the proposals being made.
23 Statements by the EPA or whoever, like the
24 sound of a motorcycle can ruin a person’s hearing and
25 contribute to high blood pressure, birth defects and
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viral infections, articles that include surveys about
2 motorcycles being more irritating than road
construction, heavy trucks, airplanes and so forth,
and printed matter that is distributed by the EPA that
has proven incorrect, these would seriously lead me
6 to question the ability of the EPA to make an
7 accurate and fair proposal, and I hope this could be
corrected.
9 The same people that make a living in the
10 industry or enjoy motorcycles have their tax dollars
ii used to advertise and sponsor hearings against
12 motorcycles in general, as would appear from the
13 viewpoint in the articles in the paper and the
14 bulletins on the television or the radio. If
15 motorcycles are your transportation, hobby or
16 occupation, the manner in which these proposals and
17 regulations are set forth must be very fair, and not
18 a game of checkers in which the winner is an
19 unimportant matter. -
20 Motorcycle people are law-abiding, tax-paying
21 citizens who deserve unprejudiced decisions in the best
22 interests of everyone, not the minority, such as the
23 noisy or few cyclists that have modified pipes. These
:24 proposals have the power to put people out of business,
25 inflate the cost of the cycles, restrict the consumer
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to a specific type of cycle, and result in the loss of
jobs in other related fields. And I have to ask, is
a 27 of the traffic noise reduction worth all of this?
4 By the way, I am also a motorcycle dealer.
5 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. I wonder
6 whether you could comment on what you would suggest
7 EPA or the State of Florida or others, governmental
S bodies, should do about this tampering problem you
9 mentioned? That which, I gather, you feel is the
10 major problem?
11 MISS HENPSTEAD: It is a major problem.
12 Phil Peterson - - I know locally the dealers have done
13 exactly what Phil Peterson said. The dealers even had
14 signs painted and mounted in stores that said, “Less
15 Sound Equals More Ground.” Our particular shop
16 doesn’t even work on a bike that has an illegal
17 muffler on it. We do not sell them. We only order
18 and replace the mufflers with the exhausts that are
19 the ones the manufacturers recommend.
20 A lady made a comment this morning about a
21 manufacturer making a pipe that may only last a year
or whatever. Some of these pipes are very, very
23 expensive. The more quiet pipes do last only a year.
24 They run like $96 apiece. That’s a very expensive
25 muffler.
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1 MR. ELKINS: I take it that the dealer
2 action is somewhat in response to the Florida law?
3 That is, that you have a State law that limits the
4 noise from this equipment, and you have taken
5 voluntary action to conform with that effectively.
6 Should EPA be concerned about the other States in the
7 Union which have not, most of which have not taken any
8 action whatsoever on this problem?
9 MISS HEMPSTEAD: I think the matter where
10 you are talking about labeling and restricting people
11 from tampering with it on an after-market-type thing,
12 1 think it’s great, because that’s what it’s going to
13 take. People should be fined that do tamper with it,
14 because they’re the ones that are making it miserable
15 for everyone else. They’re only a minority. The
16 average cyclist is a very quiet, law-abiding person,
17 and he doesn’t enjoy the noise any more than the next
18 person.
19 MR. ELKINS: Very good. Henry Thomas, you
20 have questions?
21 MR. THOMAS: Miss Hernpstead, do you and does
22 the American Motorcycle Association support Federal
23 regulation of motorcycle noise?
24 MISS HEMPSTEAD: I believe that I’m not
25 familiar with what their exact stand is on it
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1 specifically, as far as them coming to the hearing and
2 so forth, because I did not hear the results from
3 Anaheim. I do believe the manufacturers themselves do
4 wish to be regulated nationally, so that they don’t
5 have the problem of one area being more strict than
6 the other. And I believe that the American Motorcycle
7 Association would take that same stand.
8 MR.. THOMAS: Does the American Motorcycle
9 Association put out a magazine?
10 MISS HEMPSTEAD: Yes, they do.
11 MR. THOMAS: Can you remember when the last
12 time was that you saw an article or a major editorial
13 in that magazine trying to get the point across that
14 you have given here about, don’t tamper with your
15 motorcycle, don’t let the noise go up, this kind of
16 thing?
17 MISS HEMPSTEAD: It is in there every month.
18 However, let me point out the American Motorcycle
19 Association is only the paid dues members, which are
20 a very, very minute part of the motorcycle field.
21 Probably one out of every fifteen or twenty people
22 who ride a motorcycle belong to the American
Motorcycle Association.
24 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Now, that is a good
25 answer. I didn’t know that. You said that your
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1 dealers here in Florida are painting up signs
2 themselves, “Less Sound Eguals More Ground.” What
have you done in Florida as a dealers’ group or
4 dealers’ association to try to get the modified bikers
5 educated, or to get the modified problem resolved, or
6 at least diminished?
7 MISS HEMPSTEAD: Okay. I was going to say,
8 starting, say, four or five years ago, this was a
9 definite, definite threat at the time, and the dealers
10 did realize that it was coming, the more bikes that
11 got off the road and in the woods, that had tampered
12 with mufflers and so forth, that it was causing great
13 harassment to the neighborhoods, and right around
14 where the dealer was located, himself.
15 At that time, most of the dealers do have
16 this Motorcycle Dealers Association, so I’m only
17 speaking for Florida -- at that time, the dealers made
18 it a point to tell people that the performance of the
19 motorcycle did not get better with the tampering of
20 the pipe. The pipe that came with the bike was much
21 more helpful to the performance of the cycle itself.
22 You do have quite a few bikes that are sold,
23 say, off the dealer’s floor, for racing, or
24 particularly just woods-riding. But even our area,
25 where we have woods-riding here in Florida, does have
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a restri t on in there for a muffler, and for it to be
2 a legal muffler. That is just about all you can say,
3 because the guy that is going to take his pipe off,
4 or tamper with it, is going to do so no matter how
5 many regulations you put on him. He will continue to
6 do it. He’ll take the ticket. He’ll pay it, and he
7 will go back and he’ll do it again. He is just the
s kind of person who does not care.
9 MR. THOMAS: Now, let me ask -- now we’ve
10 got our finger on it. How do we solve that part of
11 the problem?
12 MISS HEMPSTEAD: You have to put him in jail.
13 1 don’t really know. That particular person is
14 generally a kid who is a minor, which presents another
15 problem. His parents, if it’s like most parents, that
16 have sc reone that is an unruly child, that doesn’t
17 listen, won’t care, either. They can go and complain
18 to the parents. He’s not going to care.
19 One major thing I see that happens there is
20 if the pipe is a destroyed pipe, or it is a pipe that
21 has been tatupered with, it could cost the parent
22 approximately $60 to $70 to put a new pipe on the bike,
23 and he’$ thinking, “I’m not going to pay that,” So
24 he lets it go the way i.t is, lets the kid -- you know,
25 either not ride it or get caught. So there is a -
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definite problem. And if you can’t police the
majority of the people, I don’t know what you can do
3 about the minority.
4 MR. THOMAS: Your comments are well-taken
5 and very well-spoken. Thank you.
6 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much.
7 We’ll hear next from Mr. Franzine.
8 MR. FRANZINE: My name is Floyd Franzine.
9 I live at 135 Kirkwood Terrace, in St. Petersburg.
10 I am sixty-seven years old, which is completely
11 immaterial. But I have been riding motorcycles for
12 over fifty years. And if you ask me how many miles,
13 I don’t know. Several hundred thousand.
14 For about forty years, I have been deeply
15 involved with the motorcycle business. And for about
16 twenty of those, I was a dealer. For the last six, I
17 was Department Chairman for the Motorcycle Technology
18 Department at Pinellas Vocational Technical Institute.
19 retired March 3. So I -am no longer representing
20 the Institution. -
21 Motorcycles are highly emotional things.
You either like them or you hate them. And this is
23 one of our major problems. We’ve had quite a display
24 of emotion here today, as far as people. It’s pretty
25 obvious about the feelings. In my time as a dealer,
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I worked every way I could for quiet motorcycles, and
this is easily verified.
What do you do about a customer that comes
in, pays cash for a motorcycle, borrows a hacksaw and
cuts the mufflers off before he leaves the shop?
We’re not policemen. There isn’t a thing we can do
about it. We can talk to him, but we can’t make him
put the muffler back on.. And this is some of the
things that I had while I was a dealer.
Fortunately, the situation got better.
Education is doing some good. Incidentally, on this
emotion thing, I was quite interested in Dr. Fletcher’
comment about the individual on the third floor by the
freeway, and the motorcycle passing at 83 DB, that
woke him up. What I want to know is, what about the
forty semis at 110 decibels, and the sixty-two private
automobiles, most of them making more noise than the
83 DB?
In other words, I think some of this is a
witch hunt. I want to be as constructive as I can
about this. I’d like to point out that the only
motorcycle you hear is the noisy one. The twenty-five
quiet ones go by, and you don’t pay any attention to
them. You only hear the noisy one. I don’t like the
noisy one any more than you do. What we’re talking
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1 about is a rather small minority.
I would like to have something done about it.
3 I don’t like people to look at me like I’m an idiot,
4 you see, because I ride a motorcycle. One thing I’m
5 concerned about with the regulations is, suppose the
6 individual wants to build his own exhaust system?
Can he do this, or can’t he? That’s a question.
S I would also ask you to remember that the
9 motorcycle is very quiet at noon and very noisy at
10 3:00 o’clock in the morning, and that goes for the
ii automobile. Half a block up the Street from me is the
12 junk man with a VW, and he goes to work about 3:00
13 o’clock in the morning. He has a slightly modified
14 exhaust system on his VW automobile, and he wakes most
15 everybody up on the Street every morning at 3:00
16 o’clock. But I don’t see anyiody doing anything about
17 it.
18 There is no question that the two-stroke
19 motorcycle is the worst offender. This is the one tha
20 makes the objectionable noise, 1 . nd the one that gets
21 on people’s nerves. Dirt bikes, they’re the hardest
22 to silence. The average road bike is not an offender.
23 And certainly the road bikes made in the last three or
24 four years are acceptably quiet by anybody’s standards.
25 I think, personally, that 82 decibels is a very
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1 realistic figure.
2 This is a question that hasn’t been brought
up today. Is EPA talking about exhaust noise or total
4 noise?
5 MR. ELKINS: Talking about total noise.
6 MR. FRANZINE: You are talking about total
7 noise. Okay. There are plenty of trucks that make
8 90 DB, because of the drive chain and the tires, even
9 though the exhaust made no noise at all. There are
10 motorcycles that -- I’ll use my own as an example --
the exhaust is almost inaudible, but the gear box
12 noise is quite predominate. The chances are if it was
13 run by a meter, it would show 83 DB. I don’t think it
14 is quite fair to imply that it is all exhaust noise,
15 when what you are really talking about is the total
16 noise.
17 Now, if you had 75 DB or 78, force
18 manufacturers to go to water-cooling, enclosure,
19 sound panels and so forth, in order to do it, I don’t
think that is realistic. I don’t think it’s necessary.
21 Full-enclosure motorcycles have been marketed in the
22 past, and they simply haven’t sold. The public
23 wouldn’t buy them. They were marketed back in the
24 ‘30’s.
25 I used to go to the -- when I was a dealer,
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went to the police department, cried to get something
done about the small percentage of noisy motorcycles.
But I got double-talk and various excuses. Nothing
was ever done. I understand their situation. I’m not
sure that they understand mine.
6 To be constructive, what do we do about it?
‘7 I understand that in Europe they use a central noise
8 test station, and the individual officer simply says,
9 “I think that your motorcycle is too noisy. Take it
10 down to the central location and get it tested.” It
seems to me this would be a simple solution, because
12 it gets the officer off the hook with the parent. It
13 would also be relatively inexpensive to have a central
14 location, and within so many days, the individual could
15 go down and get it tested. If he changes the exhaust
16 system and goes and gets it tested, he’s very simply
17 laying himself open to further tickets, isn’t he, when
18 he’s caught the next time, because it’s on record he’s
19 been caught once. It doesn’t seem to me like it would
20 be a very difficult problem to stop the small
21 percentage of people that are offending.
22 The industry is a different problem entirely,
23 and I don’t really have a solution, except that in due
24 time, as one of our speakers brought out, the
25 two-stroke will phase itself out, and the problem will
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1 correct itself. I am not going to be redundant and
2 repeat various things that have been said. It’s
3 pretty well covered, so I’ll conclude with that.
4 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. We have
5 one question.
6 MR. THOMAS: Yes, sir. I just wanted to
7 delay your concern that this is a witch hunt,
8 Mr. Franzine. We have issued regulations for medium
9 and heavy trucks. Every medium and heavy truck
10 manufactured and sold in the United States after
11 January 1 of this year must not exceed 83 decibels,
12 measured at the same distance the motorcycle noise
13 would be measured at, and the truck is measured at its
14 maximum possible noise level, which is max-governed
15 speed or maximum r.p.m.
16 In fact, based on the data that I have seen
17 from truck manufacturers already this year, most
18 trucks being sold after the first of this year are
19 quieter than most motorcycles being sold as new today.
20 Additionally, in a couple of more years, those mediut4
21 and heavy trucks, all of them, will be at 80 decibels,
22 measured under the same test procedures.
23 And EPA has already announced and has
24 underway a major program at this time to substantially
25 reduce the noise of those trucks yet further. We have
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suggested that our target is around 75 decibels for
2 medium and heavy trucks. So I indicate this to you,
.3 that says those trucks are going to be as quiet as
4 some of the larger automobiles are today. But you’re
5 not going to see it right away, as you wouldn’t under
6 these motorcycle regulations. It is being phased in
7 over time, and you are only going to start to perceive
8 that noise reduction as the fleet itself becomes
9 quieter and quieter with time.
10 I just thought I would indicate that the
11 trucks really are going to get one heck of a lot
12 quieter.
13 . MR. FRANZINE: I think that noisy trucks is
14 one of my pet peeves. I think the same with a lot of
15 other people. So I’m glad to hear you say that.
16 Whether it can be done technically, I’ll be convinced
17 when I hear it.
18 MR. THOMAS: It is being done.
19 MR. FRANZINE: It is being done. All right.
20 I’ll take your word for it.
21 MR. THOMAS: But I should add, the
22 manufacturers told us what couldn’t be done, but they
23 also told us what couldn’t be done with air emissions,
24 too. But amazingly enough, it seems to be happening.
25 MR. FRANZINE: Well, in case my remarks
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1 should be misconstrued, I am just as interested in
2 quiet motorcycles as anybody could be, and deplore the
3 noisy ones.
4 MR. THOMAS: I think that’s clear. Yes, sir.
5 Thank you. We appreciate your comments and your
6 suggestionS in terms of a central measurement station.
7 This is done in Boulder, Colorado, for instance, and
S is a model that could be used in other communities, as
9 well.
10 MR. ELKINS: Now, we’re going to go ahead.
11 We’ll hear from Mr. Stephen Feliner.
12 MR. FELLNER: My name is Stephen Feilner,
13 and I’m a member of the Maxirno-Broadwaters Civic
14 Association, and we have 500 families in our
15 association. Mr. Scott, I want to thank you for
16 allowing me to -- I believe it’S Mr. Scott -- for
17 allowing me to address your Committee. To get off to
18 a right start, I want to say that I agree with
everybody I have heard so far today, especially
20 Mr. Peterson and Mr. Ryan. And also, I am glad to
21 hear this about the medium and heavy trucks. I had a
22 question in that regard. How about the lawn mowers?
23 MR. THOMAS: They’re next.
24 MR. FELLNER: Good. Good. I don’t have any
25 prepared statement. I just made a couple of notes as
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1 have been listening, and I really think that most of
2 the people who have addressed you are sincere in their
3 sentiments, and I sincerely agree with them. And I
4 also support your position controlling the noise level.
5 It really is a serious problem, and I think it concern
6 more than the elderly. I think it concerns the young,
7 also.
8 And I would like to suggest that you also
9 take into consideration the noise factor on 1-75, which
10 is going through St. Petersburg, and perhaps you may
11 come up with some regulation or assistance for the
12 people in that area. And again, I don’t want to repeat
13 what has been said, and I want to thank you all very
14 much for this opportunity for me to congratulate you
15 on your work.
16 MR. ELKINS: Fine. Thank you very much for
17 coming.
18 We will be taking calls in a few minutes,
19 after the next speaker. Those of you in the radio
20 audience who would like to make some comments, as these
21 other citizens have, the telephone number is being
made known to you, and we’ll start taking your calls
23 after we hear from Mr. Long.
24 MR. LONG: My name is Bill Long. I’m from
25 the Orlando area. I’m the President of the American
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20
1 Motorcyclists’ Association, District A, which covers
2 the State of Florida. I would like to make a couple
of comments on what has been said here today, as well
4 as some of my own.
5 I don’t really believe that the sound that
6 people say that irritates them is really what affects
7 them with the motorcycle. The average person that has
s no knowledge of the motorcycle lets their mind or thei
9 imagination run away, as far as the sound is concerned,
10 because they have a constant fear of a big steel
11 monster coming down the Street, and I think really soiu
12 of this sound or some of the noise is in fear.
13 You can sit in a quiet room, and the
14 slightest drop of a pin will scare some people, becaus
15 they have this certain fear. And I feel that this is
16 some of the problems that we’re having. I will agree,
17 probably ride a noisy motorcycle. I have ridden the
18 Harley-Davidson for thirty years. My pipes have been
19 tampered with. They will always be tampered with.
20 I live in one of the quietest neighborhoods in the
21 City of Orlando. My neighbors have never heard me
22 come in th the morning at 1:00 o’clock, and they have
never heard me leave in the morning at 1:00 o’clock.
24 1 believe that ie we would take our children
25 my son, my daughter, your children, educate our
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1 children as to what motorcycles are and what they’re
2 tised for, and how to use them and how to ride, that we
could solve a lot of our noise problems. Now, if we
want to solve this noise problem, we can start by
5 education. This is something that the American
6 Motorcycle Association has begun to look into quite
7 ‘heavily and quite strongly. We’re going to initiate
8 a safety program into Florida.
9 As far as the mufflers are concerned, I
10 didn’t change my mufflers to make them sound loud or
11 because my bike performed better, I did it because of
12 what Mr. Phil Peterson said, because of looks. I drive
13 an $8,000 motorcycle. I will continue driving an
14 $8,000 motorcycle. I was insulted this morning by
15 Mr. Thomas when he made the statement that the
16 Japanese made the superior machine, which is an insult
17 to our American intelligence.
18 I’m governed by the EPA in my business.
19 I am also governed by the EPA inmy car, in my trucks,
20 and in motorcycles, which is fine. We need some type
21 of government for people that are wild hares. But
22 these wild people are only 1% of all the motorcycle
23 riders in this country.
24 Noise can be made from the Honda that you
25 referred to this morning as being a 76-decibel.
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If you will retract that statement and look at the
2 1978 Hc.idas, they will not go lower than 80 to 79.
They have changed their muffler system. They are
4 quite a bit louder than they were. And the figures
that you fellows are going on right now are decibel
6 figures back in 1974 and ‘75. Am I right? ‘74 and
7 ‘75?
8 MR. EDWARDS: We have tested models
9 continuously since 1974, including up to and including
10 the 1978 models.
11 MR. LONG: Okay.
12 MR. EDWARDS: You are correct, however, that
13 Honda models are a bit louder in the present year than
14 they have been in the past.
15 MR. LONG: But that statement is misleading
16 this morning to everybody that was here, that they
17 were quiet and way below. Harley-Davidson is right
18 next to a Honda GL-1000 in their decibel system.
19 MR. EDWARDS: Well, the fact that the 1976
20 and 77 models were as quiet as they were was a
21 demonstration that they could be built, however.
22 MR. LONG: This is true. Now, let me defend
23 our American manufacturers. Harley-Davidson is not
24 just a motorcycle. It is a tradition. It’s a status
25 symbol. If I, today, had to ride any other bike
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1 except a Harley-Davidson, for my type of riding, which
2 is over a quarter of a million miles since 1968, I
would quit riding today. Not because Honda, Kawasaki
4 orsorae of the other machines don’t build fine machines
which they do, but it does not serve my type of riding
6 and my type of transportation.
7 I am the President, I have been President,
I am the Road Captain of one of the large motorcycle
9 clubs in the State of Florida. We have had quite an
10 honor being the top motorcycle club in this country
11 by AMA. We do many, many hours and weeks of chart
12 work throughout the country. We’re not hoodlums. Our
13 occupations range from lawyers, doctors, down to a
14 ditch digger. It makes no difference, as long as you
15 ride a motorcycle. We do not allow people to dress in
16 long hair, beards, dirty clothing or dirty motorcycles,
17 or extremely loud mufflers. We govern this within
18 ourselves.
19 And I feel that the governing of noise
20 should be on a local basis, governed by our City
21 authorities, by our County authorities, and let the
22 U.S. Government set a guideline, but let the local
23 people enforce this guideline. Group riding, I can
24 take a group ride, like we have ten or twelve of the
25 quietest motorcycles available, or I can take one
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1 quiet motorcycle down at 75 decibels or 70 decibels,
2 and I can ride that thing along with that meter, and
I can raise that decibel on that motorcycle higher
than what the law allows, mainly because of the way
5 we ride this thing.
6 The group riding that you hear going down
7 the highway -- I’ve heard some comments about this
8 today -- when you get forty or fifty motorcycles or
9 forty or fifty automobiles running at one time, there
10 has to be higher decibels. I feel personally -- and
ii this is my personal opinion - - I think that EPA has
12 some fact figures on it -- personally, I feel the
13 noise on a motorcycle is a safety factor. When I
14 drive down the Interstate 4, drive down the Sunshine
15 Parkway, and I pull up beside of your car, in the
16 blind view of your automobile, I want you to know that
17 I’m there.
18 Some of the quiet machines -- and I’ve had
19 it happen to me -- they can pull up beside of my car.
20 can’t hear them coming around. They don’t require
21 them to have a loud horn. So when I pull beside a
22 car with my mufflers, I’m pretty sure he can hear me
23 coming. Now, I feel it is a safety factor.
24 I am for educating the people as to what the
25 riding ability is and what a motorcycle will do and
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what it can’t do. I’m against altering, running
2 straight pipes on motorcycle . Although my pipes are
3 altered, they’re not straight pipes. They’re altered,
4 and regardless of how I ride, I can pass the EPA
5 decibels of 80, 82 or 83, although they’ve been
6 altered.
7 If we have a standard muffler with approval
8 on it, I feel they should be sold over the counter,
9 as long as they can stay within this range. That’s
10 about all I have to say, except I have to emphasize,
11 I believe in education, safety, and working with the
12 City and government officials, and I think it should
13 be brought back down to the local level.
14 Do you have any questions?
15 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Long, am I to interpret you
16 to mean that if we were to quiet the motorcycles, but
17 require them to have loud horns, that that might take
18 care of the safety problem that you feel that you have
had? -
20 MR. LONG: It is not one to really take care
21 of the safety problem. It will let some of the
22 vehicles that have air conditioning -- I’m talking
:23 specifically of Florida. Down here we run all the
24 time with our windows rolled up, the air conditioner
25 going, and the stereo FM going. I get in my Cadillac
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and I roll the windows up, turn the air conditioning
2 on, and the radio, and I don’t hear anything around
me. And we switch lanes, and the motorcycle will be
4 in our blind path. There is no way we can see him
5 unless he has some way of letting us know that he’s
6 there. Mufflers do have a tendency to help. I know
7 they have helped me in the past. I’m talking strictly
8 out of experience.
9 MR. ELKINS: So the difference, though,
10 between a loud muffler and a horn is a loud muffler
11 works alithe time. That is, it’s making noise all
12 the time. A horn works when someone wants to give a
13 warning.
14 MR. LONG: That is possibly true. I can
15 take my bike and run down a hill without the engine
16 running. The whine of the chain on my motorcycle is
17 as loud as the decibel system is supposed to be right
18 now, about 82 or 83.
19 MR. ELKINS: That is why some motorcycles
20 will have to do something about the chain noise,
21 because these regulations will not just apply to the
22 mufflers, but to the entire motorcycle.
23 MR. LONG: I feel that if this is put into
24 law, that it is something that has to be done, I feel
25 that Harley-Davidson, as an American manufacturer,
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1 will be hurt. I believe you are opening up the door
2 for the Japanese machines or for the foreign machines
to come in and ruin the economy more than they have
4 already ruined our economy. Because we need the
5 American motorcycle. We need this American motorcycle
6 on the road. And Harley-Davidson, it is going to take
7 years for them to gear up to have a driveshaft machine
or a quieter engine, or even quieter tires. Their
9 tires are twice the size of any other motorcycle, and
10 their tires sing more than any other motorcycle.
11 So they’re going to have to make a complete
12 change. I don’t think it’s fair to our American
13 manufacturers, to let some foreign manufacturers
14 basically govern what we have to do over here. We
15 have done this so long in the country that we’re
getting close to -- you can’t do a thing in this
17 country unless you have to get approval from our
United States Government, and I don’t feel, personally,,
19 that it’s right.
20 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Well, thank you very
21 much, Mr. Long. We appreciate your comments.
22 MR. LONG: Thank you.
23 MR. ELKINS: We will move now to taking some
24 phone calls, as soon as they finish the station break
25 here. This idea of taking phone calls in a public
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1 hearing is, to our knowledge, the first time it’s ever
2 been done in a Federal hearing. I hope you will bear
with us. It was our very strong interest to be able
4 to get comments from all sectors of the public, and
5 we wanted to see whether this would help us do this,
6 and we’ll see how it works. We’ll start with the firs
7 caller. These callers are being asked their names and
8 telephone numbers back here, and we have that on the
9 record, so that I will ask the callers to identify
10 themselves. They may choose not to, but don’t worry,
11 it will be in the record, anyway. Anyone who wants to
12 know who they were can read the transcript, and we’ll
13 have all that. So we’ll not be hearing from
14 disembodied voices from the legalpointof view.
15 Hello, you’re on the air.
16 TELEPHONE SPEAKER: I was calling in with
17 your EPA.
18 MR. ELKINS: Yes. Could you speak up?
19 TELEPHONE SPEAKER: Excuse me? I have to
20 say that I ride a bike, myself, and I put 20,000 miles
21 on the road bike. I’m not commenting on the dirt bike
22 itself. I am saying that I replaced my exhaust
23 systems on my own bike from a dual to a dual to dual
24 two-in-one exhause system, which is a lotquieter and
25 a lot smoother-running on my bike, quite a bit better.
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If the EPA is going to have free-flowing muffler
2 systems on the bike, which make the bike run a lot
a better, beside being quieter, or just being quieter,
4 like they used to be in California.
5 MR. EDWARDS: My name is Scott Edwards. And
6 in response to your question, EPA does not establish
7 any design criteria for mufflers. We propose
8 standards to set decibel limits for mufflers. It is
9 EPA’s understanding from the muffler industry and
10 from the motorcycle industry that muffler technology
11 has progressed to the point where motorcycle
12 manufacturers can produce motorcycles and exhaust
13 systems that are not restrictive, and that will give
14 very high performance. How we understand that as we
15 go down in decibel levels, several restrictions will
16 be necessary. But we don’t feel that in the ultimate
17 level of 78 decibels, that a great deal of power will
be lost, and that the motorcycle ought to behave more
19 or less as it does today.
20 TELEPHONE SPEAKER: All right, thank you.
21 MR. ELKINS: We’ll take the next call. I
22 knew there was a good reason for me to ask you to bear
23 with us. While we’re waiting to get some of these
24 problems worked out, why don’t we hear from Betty
Pend Let on.
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MISS PENDLETON: I was going to say, from
2 that previous speaker, that was a tough act to follow,
3 because I don’t have an $8,000 motorcycle or a
4 Cadillac. I would like to correct something. We have
5 a little friendly rivalry here. Mr. Feliner
6 identified himself as representing or being part of
7 Maxirno-Broadwaters Civic Association. We do have a
8 friendly rivalry, and that’s Broadwaters he’s
representing. I’d like that clarified, please.
10 My name is Betty Pendleton. I live at
11 4122 - 52nd Avenue South, here in St. Petersburg.
12 There is nothing worse than noise pollution from
13 politicians who say a lot and do nothing. I am glad
14 you are doing something. Even though I am President
15 of the Civil Association, for today I can only speak
16 for myself and express my own personal views, but
17 after next Wednesday I can assure you, you will also
18 be receiving written comments after our Maxituo-
19 Moorings Civic Association general meeting, as our
20 residents also feel very strongly on the subject of
21 noise, as I’m sure both the EPA and DER have been, and
22
are aware.
23 I wish to say that we are delighted that
St. Petersburg was one of the three areas in the
25 country chosen for these noise hearings, as the
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1 citizens here have certainly been burdened with it,
2 and have been waiting for the day to come when the
3 “Great White Father” EPA would put their teeth into
the paper tiger.
5 Motorcycle noise is a serious problem in
6 residential areas, and if changes in rules and
7 regulations will have to be initiated, I would praise
8 the EPA for being the one, but it is ray feeling that
9 our own Florida DER is well-ahead of them, and with
10 their decibel level and enforcement made well ahead
11 of the Federal level, I would not want to see that
12 superseded.
13 - I would strongly recommend that the EPA
14 pursue these efforts throughout the rest of the
15 country, as it is my opinion that citizens do have
16 opinions on the subject, but dontt know who or where
17 to go to express them. I would like to add a P.S.
18 before I close. As long as you are in St. Petersburg,
19 you have most probably driven on our controversial
20 Interstate-275. I invite you to come home with me - -
21 one of the fellows from the DER has already -- and
drive the neighborhood streets that will be impacted,
with the special exceptions being granted and otherwise
24 imposed upon if this area of this project is completed.
25 I feel you have not taken a concerted effort to help.
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We are trying to help you now. Please reciprocate and
2 help us in our problem.
Thank you.
4 MR. ELKINS: Fine, thank you very much.
5 MISS PENDLETON: I was hoping you might ask
me some questions, as long as you didn’t get technicaL
7 But I do have one comment that I did put on the top of
8 my thing here. I don’t believe the average citizen --
9 I don’t pretend to understand it, technically, either,
10 but I think a little more explanation really should go
11 into what a decibel level is, because I think the
12 average citizen -- particularly, once again, I’ll take
13 - on the controversial Interstate -- you please take it,
14 I’m stuck with it -- I wish that they would be able
15 to explain more intelligently what a decibel reading
16 is, what a decibel level is, because the average
17 person, looking at 70 that you put as -- or whoever
18 puts as the limit, the Federal Government puts as a
19 limit, when you go one step from 70 to 71, I believe
20 they think that is just one count.
21 They don’t realize that it is like a square
22 root count, go from one to 10 to 100 to 1,000, and I
23 think it’s quite -- I won’t use the word “deceiving”
24 -- I don’t mean to even imply that -- butthe average
25 person thinks that it is only a one-point jump from
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70 to 71. They really don’t know how it mushrooms out
2 And whether the DER gets to explain it, or the EPA,
3 I would hope in your manual that you would please
4 explain it more carefully.
5 MR. ELKINS: Fine. Thank you very much.
6 Let me see if we can pick up a caller now
7 with our electronic equipment. Perhaps we can, perhap
8 we can’t.
9 Hello.
10 MISS WILLIAMS: Hello.
11 MR. ELKINS: You’re on the air.
12 MISS WILLIAMS: Oh, thank you.
13 MR. ELKINS: Give your name and address,
14 because I am not sure we have that yet.
15 MISS WILLIAMS: Okay. Kathy Williams.
16 MR. ELKINS: Kathy Williams.
17 MISS WILLIAMS: And the address is 455 - 30t
18 Avenue North, St. Pete.
19 MR. ELKINS: All right. Go ahead. What is
20 your comment?
21 MISS WILLIAMS: Okay. I have a neighbor
22 that lives down the street from me, and he has a
23 motorcycle. He also has two Chihuahua dogs. And the
24 motorcycle doesn’t bother us, you know, in the least,
25 not as much as his dogs do. And our little baby wakes
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up crying when the garbage trucks come through at 6:30,
2 7:00 o’clock in the morning, where the motorcycle
3 doesn’t seem to disturb her at all. And not only that,
30th Avenue North, as you may know, is rather a busy
5 street, not only with private passenger-type
6 automobiles, but commercial-types, also, and
7 motorcycles, and the trucks bother us way more than
s motorcycles do. Neither my husband nor I drive or
9 ride a motorcycle. That’s not our thing. But I feel
10 like people who enjoy it should be allowed to ride
11 them.
12 MR. ELKINS: Very good. So you are
13 suggesting that we should regulate dogs and trucks
14 first?
115 MISS WILLIAMS: Yes, there you are. Good
16 idea.
17 MR. ELKINS: Well, I want you to know that
18 I have had that comment before, and I have tried to
19 take it seriously, do it seriously. One of the things
20 that EPA is doing is pushing a booklet on how to train
21 your dog to keep him from barking. Now, you may think
22 that is a silly thing for the Federal Government to do.’
23 We’re not going to regulate them, of course. But so
24 many people are concerned about barking dogs that we
25 decided we needed to put out a booklet to help people
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1 training their dogs, because we think it is possible,
2 and anybody who wants it can write us at EPA
3 Washington, D.C., the Noise Program, and we’ll be glad
4 tO send them a booklet. Perhaps you’d like to give
5 one to your neighbor.
6 MISS WILLIAMS: Okay.
7 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much for calling.
8 MISS WILLIAMS: Thank you.
9 MR. ELKINS: Let’s see if we have another
10 caller or not. I think I have another caller here.
11 Hello, you’re on the air.
12 MR. STEELE: Hello, this is Richard Steele,
13 and I live at 6549 - 34th Terrace North. And first
14 off, I’d like to know if Sam Wigginton is still there
15 on the panel.
16 MR. ELKINS: I don’t believe he is. No, he
17 left.
:is MR. STEELE: Oh, rats. He had some
19 information I wanted to refer to. Number one, I am
20 a Noise Inspector with Pinellas County, stuck home cn
21 sick leave, I’m afraid. And I’ve heard a whole bunch
of technical stuff on the air, and I wanted to see if
23 could clear up just a little bit of it from my
24 personal standpoint, and also offer some personal
25 opinions on some of this information here.
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1 MR. ELKINS: Go ahead.
2 MR. STEELE: Pinellas County and. myself has
been inspecting noise, checking noise since 1974, when
4 we adopted County Ordinance 74-11, and Mr. Franzine,
5 I believe was the mants name, who was there at the
6 meeting, he assisted me in some motorcycle checks with
7 the Pinellas Vocational Technical Institute, when we
S were testing modified motorcycles, twin modified
9 motorcycles, as well as new motorcycles and old
10 motorcycles. And that is why I wanted to know if
11 Mr. Wiggintort was still there. I believe he had that
12 information with him, to substantiate what I was going
13 to say.
14 The basis of all these tests that we did,
15 or the result of all these tests that we did showed
16 that all bikes, as they come from the factory, when
17 driven sensibly, are within all of the legal noise
limits that County Ordinance 74-11 calls for, and as
19 a matter of fact are substantially lower than that.
20 The only one that is actually in violation, when
21 driven by a responsible person, is the Harley-Davidson.
22 The quietest motorcycle that was tested under various
23 conditions of load acceleration, deceleration, is the
24 Kawasaki.
25 Another thing I heard just before I got on
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1 the air here was the woman that was talking about the
2 decibels, who wanted the clarification of the decibels,
3 saying that one decibel is really raising it by a
4 power of 10, and one thing and another. She is
5 correct, mathematically. Decibels are logarithmic,
6 and subjectively speaking, though, the person listenin
7 to the noise will just barely detect a one-decibel
8 increase in noise, having noticeable subjective
9 increase in noise with 5 decibels, and you really have
10 to go up 10 decibels to have what sounds like a
11 doubling of noise, something that will sound twice as
12 loud must be 10 decibels louder than it was before.
13 One of the other comments that I kept hearin
14 or 1 here -- I have been listening since 1:30 -- was
15 that noise is only an annoyance. And that just struck
16 me as being such a preposterous statement to come out,
17 only an annoyance. Try to imagine a 50-decibel noise.
18 Now, most radios are probably turned up louder than
19 50 decibels. From where they are listening now, it is
20 probably 60 to 65 decibels, is what they are hearing
21 me now. Try to imagine just a 50-decibel power tone,
22 like a whine coming out of a pool pump, twenty-four
23 hours a day. That would be one of the most annoying,
24 nerve-racking things you could imagine.
25 So it isn’t always the loudness that creates
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1 the problem. It’s the steadiness and the frequency,
2 things like this. As far as being only an annoyance,
3 I just can’t buy that, because you can have various
4 problems, physical problems, and these we have done
5 some experimentation with, personally, privately, with
6 low frequency and high frequency noises, and we have
7 found through tests within actual County buildings
8 that there are low-frequency rumblings that cause
9 people to have nervous stomachs, they feel nauseated,
10 slight irritability, they feel down all the time,
ii psychologically depressed.
12 And then when you get up into the high-
13 frequency noise, twenty, twenty-five thousand hurts,
14 up in this area, not necessarily very loud noises now,
15 but 20,000 to 25,000 hurts, just almost outside of
16 human hearing range. We find people that are
17 beginning, after four or five hours, to have headaches
18 coming directly behind the eyes, extremely irritable,
19 hard to get along with. Maybe somebody’s probably
20 noticed the County employee, the cashier, that was just
‘21 a little snappy with them or a little bit short with
22 them. I checked this out and I found that these noises
23 coming out of some of these machines actually do cause
24 these, and when the cause was corrected, the symptoms
25 disappeared. The people are no longer irritable, one
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thing or another.
2 Now, that was just a couple of things I
3 wanted to point out on the stuff that I heard there.
4 The actual problems that we’re corning across with the
5 motorcycles here, at least in Pinellas County, at
6 least from ray personal experience on it, I primarily
7 have been handling this, it’s got to be handled on a
S single-event noise level, and it’s got to be done that
9 way, simply because of its annoyance characteristic.
10 On a standard drive-by, that one motorcycle that goes
ii by very, very infrequently, very seldom bothers anyone.
12 It’s the complaints that we get from these
13 motorcycles where you have three or four dirt bikes
14 running around the vacant field, continuously, all day
15 on Sundays, Saturday or after school, one or another
16 thing, making this continuous racket that just keeps
17 going on. So something like this has got to be done.
18 We have to have a level not to be exceeded by the
19 motorcycle itself, and the engineering design of the
20 motorcycle can only be carried just so far. I meat,
21 you can only make a motorcycle just so quiet, and then
- you run into problems.
23 The rest of it is going to have to be the
24 operatOr. It requires yearly inspections on this.
25 But once again, how would you stop the modifications?
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You would have to have street tests. The Police
2 Department, as they stand now in Pinellas County, I
can’t think of any of them who are out there enforcing
it. There is one in St. Petersburg Beach, one officer
out there, I know, that’s pretty energetic enforcing
6 motorcycle noise. But as far as that, I can’t ever
7 recall anyone writing a citation on a motorcycle. The
s Sheriff’s Department certainly doesn’t have the
9 equipment or the training, and so those people in the
io unincorporated areas of the County get no protection
ii from the traffic or motorcycle noise per se.
12 And the person who would be trained as I am,
13 as a noise inspector, simply cannot stop traffic, you
14 know, we’re forbidden to stop traffic, or even to
15 photograph the license plate with a telephoto lens on
16 a fast camera, to get them this way. We simply can’t
17 do it. So there has to be some type of system where
18 you can actually road-check these machines as they’re
19 going by. -
20 Some of the other questions on this is, who
21 is going to pay for all of this? The County itself,
22 at least in my experience, is extremely hesitant about
23 putting out huge sums of money for something where
24 there wouldn’t be a substantial guarantee we’re going
25 to get some good results from it.
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1 MR. ELKINS: That is one of the reasons why
2 we have felt that we needed not only the manufacturer,
but also the State and local level, and we are
4 encouraging localities to have enforcement programs.
5 We appreciate your comments. I need to turn to
6 another caller here, and see if that next person is
7 still on the line. No, he isn’t. All right.
8 Why don’t we turn to Mr. Pounds.
9 MR. POUNDS: Thank you. I am Laverne Pounds.
10 I have been a resident of St. Petersburg for fifty-four
ii years. This is the first meeting I have ever come to,
12 to complain. I don’t represent anyone except my own
13 household, and I live at 2411 - 49th Street North in
14 St. Petersburg. That is the Indianapolis Junior
15 Speedway.
16 Now, we had last night -- at 1:30 this
17 morning, rather -- nine police cruisers within half a
18 block of my house. I don’t know why they were there,
19 but they had their lights going, and the siren. But
20 my complaint is not with the motorcycle as ridden by
21 a responsible adult. Within two blocks of my house
22 there is a young man that has a motorcycle. He’ll be
23 at home in about ‘thirty minutes. And I will say he
24 will make nine trips around that lake by my house, and
each time he makes the circle around that lake, he
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gaes down an alley, works on the motorcycle for a few
2 minutes, and back out he comes again, around the lake.
Later on in the night he is joined by two others that
4 live up there about three blocks from the house,
5 My question is -- I am a former Code
6 Enforcement Officer and I went to the same schools as
7 that man did that was on that telephone. Now, my
8 question to him is, if my LTD station wagon or my
9 Chrysler New Yorker had a muffler that made as much
10 noise as some of these motorcycles, I’m quite sure
11 some of these policemen that were here would give me
12 a ticket before I got home, But yet they don’t seem
13 to bother these fellows on the motorcycles.
14 He made a remark about these being boys,
15 rather than out here on go-tracks. Maybe Lake
16 Sheffield should be classified as a road-track, and
17 let the boys have the motorcycle races. I’m not
18 complaining just about motorcycles. The worst noise
19 I have ever heard -- and I’ve gone with emergency
20 vehicles for the City of St. Petersburg Fire Department
21 for many years. A siren doesn’t irritate me -- but
22 these whelpers on these ambulances, they go around
23 that lake in front of my house, exceeding 20 miles an
24 hour, but when the whelper is going at 1:00 o’clock in
25 the morning, or 1:00 o’clock in the afternoon, doesn’t
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make any difference, and there’s no traffic out there
2 that is going to get in their way, but they’ve got
that cotton-pickin’ whelper going full-blast any time
of day or night.
5 Now, I would like to see, with the equipment
6 that was purchased by the City of St. Petersburg, City
of Gulfport, Pinellas Park, Pinellas County Government,
s at 21 of the 24 communities in Pinellas County, all
g had representatives at meetings in Tampa on this noise
10 pollution. St. Petersburg did hire some employees to
ii go out and stand on the corner and monitor this noise
12 as it went by. But that man on the telephone said
13 they couldn’t stop the traffic, couldn’t write a
14 citation, they couldn’t take photographs with a
15 telescopic lens. So what good were they doing?
16 If the municipal police departments, County
17 police departments, State Highway Patrol cannot
18 regulate and cicket these people with these noisy
19 mufflers, then .here 1.3 something wrong with our laws.
20 I say if it is going to be a law, be on the book,
21 enforce it. If not, don’t put it. Now, I can say if
22 I had those same mufflers on my cars, I’d have a
23 ticket before I got home. That’s all I’ve got to say.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much, Mr. Pounds.
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22.
We’ll try to take another telephone call here, if the
2 person is still holding on. Those of you who are
3 calling in, from listening to the radio, be patient
4 with us. We don’t have the telephone equipment set up
5 in such a way that we can answer your phone before I
6 actually push the button. So what happens, I think,
7 is it just keeps ringing, and so if you’ll just let it
S ring, and wait for me to answer. Let’s see if this
9 person is still here.
10 Hello, you’re on the air.
U MISS WOOD: Hi.
12 MR. ELKINS: Give your name and address,
13 please.
14 MISS WOOD: This is Barbara Wood, 1025 - 73rd
15 Avenue North
16 MR. ELKINS: Repeat your last name again,
17 please?
18 MISS WOOD: Wood.
19 MR. ELKINS: Wood?
20 MISS WOOD: Wood.
21 MR. ELKINS: Yes, go ahead.
22 MISS WOOD: Okay. I just live in an
23 apartment, and there’s a lot of people with motorcycles
24 that live in the apartment, but the most annoying
25 thing to me is that a lot of the cars have special
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i pipes put on and everything. Now, I understand and
2 know from people that have motorcycles that the noise
level does not seem to be as great as a lot of the
4 accessory pipes and different things that kids seem to
buy and put on their vans and cars and things like
6 that, to make them more noisy. I know that as popular
7 as vans are, there’s a lot more vans and noisy cars
8 than there are motorcycles.
9 And I’m just wondering why they seem to be
io attacking something like motorcycles, being such a
ii small minority, rather than some of these, you know,
12 more noisy vehicles. The things that wake us up in
13 the middle of the night in the apartment are the vans
14 or the fire trucks, when they come in, because you
15 know, they’re loud. They shake the walls and
16 everything. And I just don’t understand, you know,
17 you’re going to get some bad in anything you have, and
18 it seems to me that the majority of the people that
19 have motorcycles and everything do what’s necessary to
20 take care of it, and I don’t see the necessity for
21 having regulations and everything. You know, not
22 something that can’t be lived with by both sides.
23 MR. ELKINS: Well, thank you very much. We
24 appreciate that comment.
25 While we’re waiting for other calls to come
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1 in, keep in mind the numbers. If you live in the
St. Petersburg area, it’s 867-0939. And the Tampa
area is 225-1310.
4 Hello, you’re on the air,
5 MISS BARCLAY: Hello.
6 MR. ELKINS: Give your name and address,
7 please.
8 MISS BARCLAY: Roselyn Barclay, 539 - 83rd
9 Avenue North. And I was just wondering why we were
io spending so much money singling out the very few
ii people that are responsible for motorcycle noise
12 pollution, and it would seem that there would be some
13 other areas that would be investigated, because the
14 motorcycle industry is not the greatest offender of
15 the noise pollution. I’m in the motorcycle business,
16 and we ran tests on the noise pollution, and the
17 loudest cycle was quieter than my air conditioner, and
18 it just seems that we’re spending a lot of money for
19 nothing, to run this investigation.
20 Would anyone care to comment?
21 MR. ELKI S: Yes, as was mentioned earlier,
22 we are regulating a number of other products, medium-
23 and heavy-duty trucks, portable air compressors. We
24 plan to regulate lawn mowers, buses, garbage trucks.
25 MISS BARCLAY: Yes, but you are spending a
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lot of money to investigate something that there are
2 probably only 50 loud motorcycles in this immediate
area that are louder than the other things, when there
is a multitude of other things.
5 MR. ELKINS: Well, I find that hard to
6 believe, ma’arn, because when we have looked at surveys
7 around the country of what noise annoys people the
8 most, they are most concerned about motorcycles, which
9 seem to come up in the top five. Sometimes it’s
10 number one.
11 MISS BARCLAY: They’re not familiar with
12 them, and one loud motorcycle will bother fifty people,
13 so they’re singling it out because it is irritating
14 them, and I can understand that. But the new ones
15 coming out are quieter than your air conditioner, and
16 it just seems foolish to spend so much money on these
17 hearings.
18 MR. ELKINS: Well, we appreciate your comment
19 very much.
20 MISS BARCLAY: All right, thank you.
21 MR. ELKINS: Let me see if I can pick up
this next caller.
23 Hello, you’re on the air.
24 MISS DAVIS: Yes, this is Linda Davis,
25 4001 Wisconsin, in Tampa.
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23
MR. ELKINS: Yes.
2 MISS DAVIS: Okay. I live on a busy street
3 and hear all kinds of noise, but the motorcycles you
4 can hear coming all the way down the street, and ‘it
5 sounds like over a half a mile away, you can still
6 hear them, and they do wake my child up from a sound
7 sleep, and she does cry, and they do come all during
S the night, and I am glad to hear that there are
9 regulations on the trucks and cars, and I’m glad you
10 started with the motorcycles, because they are the
ii most disturbing,
12 MR. ELKINS: Okay. So you would disagree
13 with the previous caller -- that maybe you didn’t hear,
14 because you were waiting on the phone -- who said, tha
15 felt that we were dealing with a problem that was
16 very small, that there really were not that many
17 noisy motorcycles in the area. Now, she was calling
18 from St. Petersburg, I believe, and you’re in Tampa,
19 so perhaps there’s a difference.
MISS DAVIS: Well, I live down the Street
21 from a junior high school and a high school, and also
22 an Air Force base, so there’s a lot of people that
23 come up and down this busy Street. And even though
24 the noise of motorcycles might be in the minority,
25 when they do come by, you hear them, and they are most
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disturbing.
2 MR. ELKINS: Okay, fine. Well, we thank you
a very much for your comment.
4 Hello, you’re on the air.
5 MR. PACHECO: Yes, my name is David Pacheco,
6 and I live at 5230 - 98th Avenue, Pinellas Park.
7 MR. ELKINS: Fine, thank you. Your comment?
S MR. PACHECO: I was up there earlier today,
9 listening, and I had to leave. I do have a couple of
10 comments. This Miss Lucas, the spokesman for EPA,
11 made the statement that in California the Hell’s
12 Angels are going to complain about the rules, but in
13 St. Pete we hope all the people will come out and
14 cheer us. It seems like you’re trying to create an
15 image of motorcycles as unpopular, you know, an easy
16 thing to put down. Lawn mowers, I think, would be
17 rather unpopular, whereas motorcycles, you know, would
be a popular thing to put down. Earlier I heard the
man from the AMA, and I agree with most of what he
20 except how Harleys are noisy, but that’s a personal
21 factor. I do drive a $4,000 Japanese bike, and it’s
22 as quiet as my automobile, which is a Cadillac. I
23 just don’t really understand what’s happening, you
24 know. I agree with the lady just on spending a lot of
25 money, I think, chasing something that really isn’t
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all that much of a problem. I do agree that dirt
bikes are very noisy, you know, but I don’t see how to
3 control that with any laws. The reason I say that is
they mention also in the article that perhaps the
5 Federal Government would withhold funds if this thing
6 wasn’t enforced. And that disturbs rue, you know. I
think this is a thing for local rules. I guess that’s
8 really what my point is.
9 MR. ELKINS: We appreciate your comment with
10 regard to the article that appeared in the recent
ii newspaper in this area. As we indicated earlier, the
12 person who was quoted was, in our viewpoint, out of
13 context, but more importantly, is not an EPA employee.
In any case, we were not trying to stir up an easy
15 case against motorcycles, and I hope the way in which
16 we have conducted this hearing and had people from all
17 different persuasions give us their views and hopefull
18 we have treated everyone fairly as an indication of
19 our attitude that we’re trying to be fair. We’re not
20 after any one group. We’re trying to deal with a
21 problem, and we would welcome suggestions as we go
22 along on how we might be able to deal with this
23 problem without in any way interfering with these
24 people’s rights.
25 MR. PACHECO: I feel. that perhaps home rule,
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you know, and enforcement -- I wouldn’t object to a
2 policeman or any law enforcement officer pulling me
over to check my motorcycle at any time, and I would
4 hope that if I was in violation of a law, I’d be
5 forced to correct it. So I can agree with that end of
6 it. There are bikes on the road that I wish they’d
7 get off the road, just because of the image they
8 create.
9 MR. ELKINS: That’s the kind of rule that
10 we’d like to have in local coraniunities, Well, thank
ii you very much for your comment. We’ll take another
12 call here.
13 MR. PACHECO: Okay, thank you.
14 MR. ELKINS: Hello, you’re on the air. Give
15 your name and address, please.
16 MR. McIDERMOTT: Jim McDermott, 7001 Bay
:17 Boulevard in Tampa.
18 MR. ELKINS: What is your comment?
19 MR. McDERMOTT: Okay. I know a lot of
20 motorcyclists. I have never ridden one in my life.
21 And I really think that we’re letting the minority get
22 the rule over the majority of the bicycle riders,
23 motorcycle riders. I think the majority of the people
24 that do ride bikes, I imagine if I had the bike I
25 would ride it, and I’d try to be decent with it, you
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1 know, and I feel, you know, as far as the decibels
2 thing, I don’t even how what a decibel is. I have
never heard of EPA or DER. So therefore, I don’t know
what you’re talking about. But my neighbors, when I
5 listen to my stereo quite loud, they don’t say anything
6 about it. They have their loud cars and you know, we
7 get along great. And I don’t think we should let a
8 few people run it for everybody. And as far as that’s
9 concerned, I’m stationed right here at the base, and
10 I put up with these jets all day long, and it gets to
11 the point where you get used to it. You get used Co
12 listening to the roar. And I can’t see anything --
13 you know, I’m like the guys, why waste your money on
14 this when there’s far more important things to do to
15 spend your money and your time on?
16 MR. ELKINS: Well, thank you very much for
17 that comment. Let’s see if we can take another call
1 8 here.
19 Hello, you’re on the air.
20 MR. CALDWELL: Hello. My name is Carl
21 Caldwell, and I live at 2499 - 38th Avenue North in
22 St. Petersburg. And I know this guy said he had the
23 neighbor with the loud pipes, and I had the same thing
24 here, I had a fellow on a motorcycle that would come
25 through here about 2:00 o’clock in the morning.
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1 I live right on the corner, and he’d gun it when he
2 vent by his house, then he’d slow it up. But I went
3 back and talked to him, and he quit coming in noisy.
4 But what about the other eight, nine hundred people
5 that come flying down 38th Avenue, making all the
6 noise? I don’t hear him, because he comes in real
7 slow and careful. But that doesn’t help the other
8 people. And I can say I’m within a block of this
9 275. I can hear the motorcycles shifting up and down
10 and up and down for miles away, you know, fairly early
11 in the morning, of course. But in the afternoon, I’m
12 sitting here when those motorcycles come down, these
13 choppers and so forth. I mean, they bring you out of
14 your chair. So anyone that thinks that motorcycle
15 noise isn’t a problem, they really should come on out
16 here on 38th Avenue and sit in my front yard for
17 awhile. I’ll be glad to stir from the chair.
18 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Fine. That’s an open
invitation then for anyone.
20 MR. CALDWELL: That it’s a problem, I’ll tell
21 you. And there’sa lot of them. I’ll agree with some
of these people that come by, make more noise with the
23 car, but boy, the few that do make it, they make up
24 for it, and I think that really the motorcyclists
25 could police themselves, get themselves out of this
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bind. But that’s all I have to say. But it bothers
2 ne.
3 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Good. Glad to hear you.
4 Thank you very much for calling.
5 While we’re waiting for other calls, let me
6 just remind you of the number. 867-0939, if you are
7 in the St. Petersburg area, and 225-1310 for the Tampa
8 area.
9 Hello, you’re on the air.
10 TELEPHONE SPEAKER: Are you taking calls for
ii the noise pollution?
12 MR. ELKINS: Yes, we are, if you’d like to
13 give your name and address.
14 TELEPHONE SPEAKER: No, I don’t want to do
15 that, because I’m afraid that there will be
16 repercussions. I don’t want to identify myself for
17 fear of harm being done.
18 MR. ELKINS: I’m sorry, but this is a public
19 hearing. I feel as if I would have to have your name
20 and address before I can have you testify. We had the
21 telephone equipment set up so that we could do it
22 otherwise, but for some reason it doesn’t work. So
23 I’m sorry, I have to go to another caller, If you
24 could write us, though, any of you who are not able to
25 call us, write EPA, Motorcycle Noise, EPA,
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1 Washington, D.C. 20460, and that will be very helpful
2 to us. Thank you for calling, though. Let’s see if I
3 can get another caller here.
4 Hello, you’re on the air.
5 MR. MOSES: Thank you very much.
6 MR. ELKINS: Give your name and address,
7 please.
8 MR. MOSES: Yes. My name is Richard Moses.
9 I live at 5711 Bayshore Boulevard, Tampa.
10 MR. ELKINS: Yes. Your comment?
11 MR. MOSES: My concerns are three. First of
12 all, that no injustice be done to any group of
13 individuals. My second concern is for any motorcycle
14 rider who Is listening this afternoon, there’s some
15 motorcycles which technically will not be able to
16 comply with the lower levels, without massive redesign.
17 And my third concern is my personal freedom to ride
18 an Italian motorcycle, which evidently is louder than
19 some of the Japanese bikes, but still sold legally in
20 the United States at this time.
21 First of all, one wonders why motorcycles
22 are being singled out, since there seem better things,
23 such as garbage trucks and Air Force jets that have to
24 go out over residential areas when there are possibly
25 other openings over the water and things like that,
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1 although I’m not an expert on aviation. I couldn’t
2 say that. The other concern I have is that all
3 motorcycle noise problems are being consistently
4 confused together. For example, certainly in a
5 residential area, which is zoned so, there might be a
6 vacant lot, and there would be a large number of
7 people on. the dirt bikes. I could see how that would
8 be a concern.. So that I would wish that the
9 categories would be a little more distinctly talked
10 about. Dirt bikes, street bikes, things like that.
11 Another point is that I am concerned that
12 personal opinions are ignored, such as a finely-tuned
13 machine with a less restrictive muffling system,
14 although not open pipes, is indeed music to my ears,
15 and I would hope that other people would feel so.
16 And addressing Dr. Fletcher’s point earlier,
17 I feel a real danger in the EPA addressing itself to
18 the problem of protecting people from themselves,
19 determining that a cyclist is exposing himself to
20 hearing loss, as a fact to be regulated, and that to
21 me means he’s committing some crime. It seems to me,
22 I mean, I could make a very ridiculous analogy to say
23 that an executive or bureaucrat who exposes himself to
24 telephones and sitting at a desk and working all day
25 is exposing himself to ulcers and insomnia and
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i neuroses, and I’m afraid of that line of reasoning,
2 and I would urge you to be very careful in dealing
with that.
4 And I’d like to conclude my remarks by
5 saying that if it is chosen to regulate a society that
6 is noise-oriented, with all the mechanical things that
7 we live with, perhaps it would be time better spent on
8 larger noise problems, and wouldn’t force small-
9 business people out of business, as far as the adverse
10 individual rights of a person, as long as they’re not
11 grossly affecting other people.
12 Thank you very much.
13 MR. ELKINS: Thank you for calling. We
14 appreciate it. Let’s see if we can pick up another
15 caller here.
16 Hello, you’re on the air.
17 MR. COLEMAN: This is Louis Coleman in
18 Lakeland, at Murph’s Barber Shop. Now, I guess I
19 stand in a sort of a unique position. I’m sixty years
20 old. I can sense at this age the feeling of the man
21 who is retired and represented all those retired
22 people, and I can sense that age very well. But also
23 I can sense the feeling of youth, that I’m not a
spring chicken, I guess I’m not a fall duck, either,
25 yet. Now, sort of halfway between the extreme of the
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1 elderly attitude toward motorcycling, and the young
2 who might take the young-at-heart attitude, maybe
3 flippant. And which I think the majority don’t.
4 But I’d like to say at this juncture of my
s life, and looking forward and looking back all at the
6 same time, and with no regret either way, I think that
7 motorcycling shouldn’t become an endangered species,
B and at this time I don’t think that the EPA wants it
9 to be. At the same time, I don’t think that the
10 younger generation and the middle who predominantly
11 ride motorcycles want to run anything over on the
12 populace. But the thing that I am looking at, and
13 trying to be objective, I would not want the EPA to
14 become so possessed with the idea of quietness that we
15 get too many recommendations, or too stringent
16 regulations.
17 Noise is a part of life. You can’t eliminat
1 5 j And this is a noisy world. I don’t think that we
19 should set decibels and say this is it. I think that
20 there should be a more or less, and let’s work toward
21 a quieter motorcycle, if that’s necessary, and I think
22 it is in so many instances. But as the industry is
23 moving along, now, it seems to me that motorcycling ha
24 come along wonderfully without too many more
25 regulations.
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MR. ELKINS: Okay. Well, thank you very
much. We appreciate those views.
3 MR. COLEMAN: Thank you.
4 MR. ELKINS: Thank you for calling us.
5 Hello, you’re on the air.
6 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, sir. Speaking of the
7 noise of motorcycles --
8 MR. ELKINS: Excuse me. Could you give us
9 your name and address, please, first?
10 MR. WEBSTER: Yes, sir. I live at 7110
11 Skipper Road North, Tampa.
12 MR. ELKINS: Your name is -- ?
13 MR. WEBSTER: My name is William Webster.
14 MR. ELKINS: Yes, Mr. Webster. Go ahead.
15 MR. WEBSTER: Okay. I just used to live
16 right over beside of Bearrs Avenue, right off of 1-75,
17 and on that, trucks, motorcycles, Volkswagens, most
all kind of vehicles that have been modified - - I’m
not saying that these dealers are not selling legal
20 equipment, but that thing worried me, and I had people
21 come out there and test the noise level, but you know,
22 what I’m trying to say, a good solution to this would
23 be, when these vehicles go through the inspection
24 stations, that they should have a noise Indicator
25 there, find out just how much noise these vehicles,
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1 whether they be motorcycles, trucks, or Volkswagens,
or even dirt bikes, you’d have to go through there,
cut this noise down.
4 I sold my home to get away from that place
over there, because I couldn’t get anything done about
6 it, and I’m not saying that these people are selling
7 these vehicles that way, but people are modifying,
8 you know. That’s the reason we set up, one of the
9 reasons we set up, in my opinion, we have set up these
io inspection stations, not only for safety. Safety is
11 safety, for all aspects of life. Safety of hearing,
12 safety of your physical being, and all that. And I
13 think it could be corrected by putting one of these
14 noise, you know, whatever they call them, into these
15 inspection stations, and require all motor-driven
16 vehicles, whether they be dirt, road bikes, to pass
17 this test.
18 MR. ELKINS: Yes, that’s a very good idea.
19 We appreciate your bringing that up.
20 MR. WEBSTER: Okay, thank you.
21 MR. ELKINS: Thank you for calling. We’re
22 coming to the end of our call-in time. If someone
23 else calls us on 225-1310 in the next few rnintues,
24 next few seconds, we’ll go on and take that call.
25 Otherwise, this wi].l complete our call-in portion, and
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1 wetil take a break in the hearing for a few minutes to
2 let everyone stretch, including our court reporter,
3 who has been going steadily for the last several hours.
4 While waiting to see whether anyone else
calls us, let me say that I just got word that the
6 Senate Environmental Public Works Committee, which is
7 the Committee that has oversight over the Noise Contro
8 Act, and which our agency operates, has approved an
9 amendment to the Act which will essentially double the
10 funding for the Noise Control Program in the next
11 couple of years. Since we have such a small program,
12 doubling it is not going to save the world, but for
13 those who have been struggling with the limited budget
14 we have, it is encouraging, and perhaps with that
15 additional money we will have enough money to take
16 care of motorcycles, as well as other things.
17 I’ll take that call now. Hello, you’re on
18 the air.
19 COL. MONROE: Yes, sir. This is Col. Paul
20 Monroe, 1348 Coffeepot Drive, St. Pete.
21 MR. ELKINS: Yes.
22 COL. MONROE: I get such a kick out of
23 people. People are beginning to forget we’ve got too
24 many laws, we’ve got too many regulations, and the
25 other people, one or two, are going to try to regulate
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our lives. We already got too many, you know, on the
2 statutes. Watch out for this. Be careful of this.
Don’t smoke, don’t drink. If you do, you’ll become an
4 alcoholic. And about motorcycles and all that, does
5 anybody ever think whether you’re young or old -- and
6 I don’t consider myself that old -- that we all have
7 tO have a little joy out of life. One thing we could
do is we could vote for the bond issue, when we need
9 more schools, and have better education for our young
10 people, instead of worrying about somebody on a
11 motorcycle making a little noise. Like the other
12 gentleman said, we got to have noise. I have lived
13 with it all, my life. I’ve enjoyed talking to you, and
14 thanks for the time.
15 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Well, thank you very
16 much for that comment. Appreciate that. We’ll be
17 here for some time into the evening. Those of you who
would l&ke to come to the Ramada Inn South, 3600 -
19 34th Street South, in St. Petersburg, you’ll find us
20 here. We’d like to have you come in person to tell
21 us what you think. We thank all of you radio audience
22 for being with us, and appreciate your comments too.
23 It has given us additional views that we needed.
24 At this time, we will take a short break.
25 (Whereupon a recess was had).
CEI TlFIEQ MERIT REPORTERS
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us a telegram.
MR. ELKINS: We have one telegram. Anyone
who pays for telegrams deserves to have it read, right?
“As a member of the public who had to. sell
his home to get away from unmuffled motorcycle noise,
I urge stringent action and control of this nuisance.’
C. Patrick hey.
We appreciate his spending the money to give
Is Carmen McGaughey here?
MR. McGAUGHEY: Shall I proceed?
MR. ELKINS: You may go ahead as you please,
MR.. McGAUGHEY: I want to spend a little
time just acquainting you with a confrontation that
our whole community had over motorcycle noise. I
moved into a community about four years ago, and I
moved into a situation that pertained to motorcycle
noise. When the neighbors told me about it, after I
got there, I said, well, something should be done about
that. So many of the neighbors -- there were three
motorcycle groups, and they were all living in rented
houses that each group had taken over apartments, and
they had pretty much taken over the neighborhood, too.
A good many of the neighbors complained
about them, and had incurred the wrath of these
motorcycle groups, and they became worse and worse,
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and they actually used their motorcycles and the
noise from the motorcycles as sort of weapons against
the community. And the community was very much upset
4 about it. So when they acquainted me about it,
5 naturally I said, well, something ought to be done
6 about it. So I, at their behest, I got up a petition
7 and looked into the situation, and I’ll just read this
S to you, because it is self-explanatory.
9 We, the undersigned, do attest and affirm
10 that the nuisance cited herein did on numerous and
11 repeated occasions, at all hours, both day and night,
12 interfere materially with our ordinary comfort,
13 physical and human existence, according to the modes
14 of living of ordinary people.
15 Instance: Excessive and inordinate noise
16 from motorcycle exhaust, singly and in concerted
17 groups, centered around and congregating at premises
18 at all hours of day and night, in an extremely
19 aggravating and grievous manner.
20 Central locations of these motorcycle group
21 cells -- I have two listed, which were in the immediate
22 neighborhood. There is a whole page of signatures
23 here. But there was another one, and they collected
24 from several areas in this particular place. I have
25 those locations, and the landlord’s names here.
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Applicable ordinance, St. Petersburg City
2 Code Chapter 14, Environmental Protection, Article III,
Noise, Division I, Sections 14 through 46, Motorcycle
4 Vehicles.
5 (a), it shall be unlawful for any person,
6 firm or corporation to operate or to permit to operate
7 or to own any motorcycle which is operated on public
8 roadways within the City of - - I am sure you are
9 familiar with all of this -- it mentions 84 decibels,
10 measured with a fast meter response, and so on and so
ii forth.
12 Relief sought: We do hereby pray and
13 petition intervention of appropriate officials to take
14 all necessary Steps to:
15 One, require all motorcycles centered in or
16 reasonably adjacent to the affected community and
17 vicinity to be inspected or re-inspected for full
18 compliance to applicable City ordinance.
19 Two.. Monitor all such motorcycles on a
20 routine basis for alterations to exhaust systems that
21 would affect deviaticns from ordinance standards.
22 Three. Strictly enforce applicable codes.
23 And here are the signatures.
24 Now, that actually made the situation worse.
25 Where my neighbors were, it became standard morning
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ritual in our neighborhood to clean up our lawns of
2 all the debris and beer cans and broken bottles and
that sort of thing, which was quite disturbing. But I
took this petition, I took it to the environmental
5 group here, or agency here in St. Petersburg. I took
6 it to the City officials. I took it to the council
7 person for our area. And I was told -- I gathered
s that they all wanted to do something, they really dii.
g They were very sincere, most helpful, most sympathetic
Ho to the situation. But there was nothing they could do.
Hi And I’ll go into that just momentarily.
12 Now, there was nothing could be done there.
13 But as I say, that any move in this direction really
14 made us sort of a victim. These motorcyclists would
15 alter their machines and harass us day and night, and
16 resort to many other means to sort of terrorize our
17 neighborhood.
18 Well, I thought that if I couldn’t get it on
19 that one, I might be able to do some good on another
20 one. One of these groups, they fixed up their
21 motorcycles, they ran a repair shop in one of the
22 houses, apartment houses they rented. So I got up
23 this petition, in response to the people, two pages of
24 signatures here, who asked me -- well, they didn’t ask
25 me, didn’t single me out, but everybody got his head
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together, we got our heads together to try to see what
we come up with. So I got this up with the same
3 heading about:
4 Do attest and affirm that the nuisance cited
5 herein, instance, operation of motorcycle repair shop
doing maintenance, road-testing, tuning, adjusting and
extensive general service of motorcycles.
S Now, that sounds all right on the surface,
but what actually happened was we complained to the
10 absentee landlords of these places where these three
11 groups rented, and they said, oh, well, we’ve got calls
12 before, and we’ve mentioned it to them, and they say
13 they’re fixing their motorcycles. Well, we can’t
14 complain about that. They’re just tuning them up.
15 But what happened was they would take the
16 mufflers off, and say they were repairing them and
adjusting them and tuning them up for runs or whatever
18 they do, and they would run them. They’d get through
19 their repair work about 3:00 o’clock in the morning,
20 or 2:30 in the morning, and before they would put their
21 muffler on, they’d road-test it around our block.
22 Well, you have no idea, I’m sure you have no
23 idea.what that was like, and they’d start that
24 motorcycle up at 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning, to
25 road-test it around the block without a muffler, And
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they were giving their landlords the story, oh, we’re
just fine-tuning it and adjusting the ignition,
changing the spark plugs and that sort of thing. Well,
so really this instance doesn’t do full justice to
5 what was happening.
6 And I gave the location here of the garage
7 at the rear, so on and so forth, the applicable
8 ordinance, St. Petersburg City Code A, Appendix B,
9 Zoning, Article No. 6409, Subsection 12, Hobbies,
10 hobbies such as boating, furniture making or repair,
ii automobile repair and rebuilding and so on, which in
12 itself, on the surface, is not relevant to this meeting
13 I understand that.
14 But the part that is relevant was what was
15 happening, what actually took place about motorcycle
16 noise.
17 Relief sought: We do hereby pray and
18 petition intervention of appropriate officials to take
19 all necessary steps to prohibit .ariy and all repairs,
20 testing or racing of engines or activities of any kind
21 of a disturbing or noisy nature on said premises or in
22 the neighborhood of said premises. Here are two pages
23 of signatures on that, of the community.
24 Now, that got no good. And that’s jUSt as
2 plain as it can be. So what the community started to
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do, we got together again and I said, I’m sorry, I’m
2 not doing a bit of good on that, either. They won’t
even come out, they won’t even look at it or anything
of the kind. So they were saying, well, they were
5 tinkering with their motorcycles, changing the spark
6 plugs. That shouldn’t bother anybody.
7 So what we all did -- and I’m not in favor
of this at all -- as a matter of fact, one of the
9 reasons I’m appearing here is to point out to you the
io necessity of dealing with this problem directly, not
ii going around the bush about it, not having some
12 devious manner of dealing with this problem -- we
13 started to call up the landlords when the motorcycles
14 woke us up at 2:30 or 3:OO.in the morning, the
15 landlords started to get a lot of calls, And believe
16 me, they started to call the City, the police official
17 But that’s one thing that started to happen.
18 Of course, I didn’t think at the time that
19 was going to get any results. So I wrote to all of
20 our State Legislators, and it so happens, I found this
21 out, that they have an office up there in Tallahassee,
22 Room 360J, in the Florida State Capitol, and I made a
23 call, and this letter was duplicated up there and
24 passed around to our five Legislators,
Dear Sirs: Concerned residents of this
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1 community have collected 54 property-owner signatures
2 in the immediate vicinity on a petition to get
3 government action to curb excessive motorcycle noise.
4 City officials inform us the City Code, Chapter
So-and-So and So-and-So, Chapter 14, Article ill,
6 Division I, Section 14246, has been pre-empted by
7 Florida State Statute, Chapter 74 through 110,
8 No. 403.414, No. 316.293, of October 1, 1974, Highway
9 Motor Vechile Noise.
10 Motorcyclists in this community, one, alter
11 their vehicles by removing or diminishing mufflers.
12 Two, harass peaceful neighborhoods at all hours,
13 especially at night. Three, terrorize communities in
14 most abusive and belligerent manner.
All the above, I might add, with apparent
16 impunity. The State jurisdiction has had the effect
11 of making municipalities a no-man’s land. Now,
18 nobody enforces any law.
19 Now, I will say this has been two years ago.
20 This letter was mailed May 20, 1976. And I understand
21 that at that time they were making some preparation.
22 I think they had at that time probably a couple of
23 pieces of equipment, new pieces of equipment which
24 they could use to check decibel levels. But I
25 know whether they were trained in the use of them,
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But my understanding at that time, they were getting
ready to get into this sort of thing. To continue.
3 1 have a simple and concrete and a positive
4 suggestion and recommendation which amounts to
5 implementing the high-sounding Florida State Statute.
6 These motorcycle gangs -- I call them gangs in this
7 particular letter, and I’m reading the letter verbatim
8 Actually, I wouldn’t refer to them as gangs in any
9 public meeting. I am merely reading the letter, which
10 I wrote at that time. I am terribly sorry. I believe
11 if I knew that word was there, I would have substitutec
12 another word, I am sorry that I called them that word
13 - - pased the word very quickly when there is
14 to be a helmet-run. Actually, helmet-run -- I’m sure
15 you’re familiar with it -- what it is, in actuality,
16 a helmet-run is in defiance of the law. The law
17 requires wearing a helmet, and they call a big group
18 together and go through a city without helmets on.
1’) don’t know whether -- I have never attended one. ].
20 don’t know a thing about them. But I have heard about
21 them. Or a rally or neighborhood buzz.
:22 Now, motorcycles -- and I know that they do
23 this all over the country, because I’ve asked about t
24 I have complained about motorcycles in other parts
25 of the country, and they’ve told me, well, if
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think that was bad, let me tell you what happened here,
and that sort of thing. But when they buzz a
3 neighborhood, they go through a neighborhood, throw
out their clutch and rev their motors up, to really
give you the shock treatment.
6 How about taking some appropriate action tha
will cause them to pass the word that Florida is no
8 longer a haven for motorcyclists and law-breakers?
9 Enforce strict compliance to the letter of the law,
10 require periodic inspections, and issue tickets on
the least violation.
12 I have checked into inspections here in this
13 area, motor vehicle inspections, which includes
14 motorcycles, and they do not inspect for noise
15 emissions. They inspect merely for the mechanical
16 operation of the vehici.e from the standpoint of safety.
ii. That is, whether the brakes are all right, the lights
18 are all right, the horn and the windshield wiper and
19 that sort of thing.
20 Now, I want to say that shortly after I
21 wrote this letter, the motorcycle groups left the
22 community, all three groups left. I’ll tell you what
23 brought it about. Had absolutely nothing to do with
24 our complaints over noise, nothing whatever. i mean,
legally, moving against them, because of noise
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emissions, had nothing whatever to do with that.
2 What had to do with it was we called up the
3 landlords whenever they woke us up, we called the
4 landlords and got them out of bed, 2:30, 3:00 o’clock
in the morning. That’s one thing, the landlords, they
6 were getting ready to sell their -- well, the landlord
7 -- the landlady that I called, that lived close to me,
did sell out. She sold out. And she cried over the
9 phone at 3:00 o’clock in the morning and said, “How
much of this can I take?” I said, “How much can we
11 take?” That was one thing.
12 And I should compliment the City policemen
13 here. But really, I just sort of regret the way this
14 was done. I am sure that if you pe ple do what I feel
15 you should do,’ this will not be necessary. But these
16 motorcyclists, they got tickets. You know, a
17 motorcycle isn’t like a car. They have unobstructed
vision. They can look at a stop sign, they can look
19 this way and that way, and they come to a rolling stop
20 Well, they got a lot of tickets for coming to rolling
21 stops. They got a lot of tickets every time one of
22 those men left, there was a police, car right on his
23 tail, and he came back with a sad countenance.
24 So they, I guess, when I put in my letter,
25 tell them to pass the word that this isn’t a haven for
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motorcyclist law-breakers any more, I guess that’s
what happened. I regret that it did happen that way,
but it did happen, and they’ve gone, and I think it
makes it all the more necessary to take action against
them on the noise, on the noise situation only. I
don’t like getting results in any other way. I think
that’s a very dangerous precedent. I was sorry about
that. I was sorry about what happened to the landlorth
too. But after all, the community was sort of sorry
about what was happening to it.
I wanted to say that I want to end this by
saying that I have no quarrel with motorcycles used
for what I think they were originally intended to use,
which is transportation. I think that groups do use
them. I have no quarrel with them about pleasure-
riding. That’s wonderful. I think it’s all right
that they should do that, and I wouldn’t interfere
with them
in any way
But to use the motorcycle for an ulterior
use, such as harassment, or I would object to the use
of a motorcycle as an attention-getting device, too.
I think around schools, and around groups of young
people, I think the motorcycle, the noise that they
make reminds me of the fertility rights of some
animals. They just, in certain periods of the year,
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they start squawking and making an awful lot of noise,
and it’8 a matter of their fertility rights.
3 I think motorcycles are used as an
4 attention-getting device, and there was one man called
in here, he paid $4,000 for a motorcycle, and he wants
6 it to be noticed. And the way to get attention is to
have it make noise, attract attention. I disagree
with that. I object to it. 1 disapprove of it. A
9 motorcycle for transportation, all right. But to use
10 it for any other purpose, I object to it.
11 I would suggest, if you want me to make a
12 suggestion - - I’m sure I’m not original with this, --
13 but I would suggest that before a motorcycle can be
14 put on the market, that it be required to have a
low level of decibel output. I don’t think that it
16 suffices to check a motorcycle at cruising speeds,
17 for instance, in the thirties. The argument that’s
18 used by officers, well, that’s a 30-mile-an-hour zone,
19 and the motorcycle is going 30 miles an hour, doesn’t
20 make much noise. But a motorcycle can always pull the
21 clutch out and rev it up, in getting away fast at a
22 traffic light.
And by the way, if you’re awakened at 2:30
24 or 3:00 o’clock in the morning, it doesn’t make any
25 difference if he quiets down in the middle of the
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261
block. After all, if we hang a man until he’s quieted
you don’t come back two or three hours later and
3 discuss if you should shoot him, once the level is up
4 there.
I think that the level should be checked at
6 all speeds on the motorcycle, and kept within decibel
7 limits which have been suggested in this meeting today.
8 I’m very willing to answer any questions. Although
9 this is a personal experience, it was a matter of
community effort, and I don’t suppose that you would
ii have many questions on that. But I’ll be perfectly
12 willing to answer any questions.
13 MR. ELKINS: Fine. Thank you for your
14 testimony. A y questions? Fine, thank you for being
15 with us.
16 MR. .McGAUGHEY: Thank you.
17 MR. ELKINS: Mr. John Schuh.
18 MR. SCIIUH: Yes.
19 MR. ELKINS: Come right up.
20 MR. SCNUR: Okay. My name is John Schuh.
21 I reside at 2865 - 51st Street South, in Culfport,
22 Florida, a little west of our location here this
23 afternoon in Pinellas County. And in looking at some
24 of the material you all have had out in the lobby, I
25 noticed several points concerning the regulation in
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LO.
1 regards to motorcycle noise emissions and control.
2 One of the questions I would have would be
3 standards that you do have set in terms of the
4 schedule. I was wondering why those standards were
5 set at that level, as opposed to some other level.
6 Now, as regards the motorcycle, vis a vis , let’s say,
7 the car, I noticed that one of the aspects concerning
8 noise standard limits not to be exceeded, 15 meters,
9 or roughly 49-some feet - - I had questions in regard
io to this as relates to most of our local roadways here
ii and pedestrian-motorcycle conflicts, because as you
12 know, many of the conflicts will be within that
13 49-foot zone. And I was wondering how much concern
14 EPA had, or how much attention EPA iad given to
15 pedestrian-motorcycle conflicts along residential and
16 city traveiways.
17 The other thing that I would question would
18 be the acoustical insuranceperiod that products must
19 meet the standard, and not exceed the standard for at
20 least one year. This seems to me, even though I’m not
21 an engineer, to be a very short period of time in
regard to new products. It also does not say anything
23 to me in terms of what happens after that one-year
24 period of time, nor the practicality of continuing
25 standards on a new machine whose muffler may wear out
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within the one- to two-year period.
How often, in other words, is the cost of
3 replacement in regard to such a standard going to be
4 met by the individual owner? In other words, I am
5 projecting, if someone owns a motorcycle for five to
6 six years, and by this standard manufacturing standards
7 become rather flimsy, you may find it met during this
first year, but you may not fi. d it met during years
9 three to five, perhaps. So I would question such a
io short period of acoustical insurance.
11 One point that has been raised by the other
12 people in the audience is the question of enforcement
13 in regard to that standard, whatever the standard may
14 be. It may hsve been stated earlier. I don’t know.
15 But enforcement is a necessary adjunct to any of these
16 regulations. We have, ourselves, in this community,
17 experienced some very bad feelings and experiences
18 concerning noise, as regards highway impact, which
19 certainly standards have been on the books.
20 We have been under duress in regard to an
21 interstate highway building in the area, and yet years
22 have passed without anyone causing one of our own
23 Federal agencies to meet the applicable standards.
24 And when this appears in regard to Federal agencies,
25 1 have real questions in regard to private individuals
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1 that apparently come under the aegis of enforcement
and regulation. So I would point that out to you.
The other aspects concerning economics, I am
4 currently enrolled in the Economics Program at the
5 University of South Florida, masters-level program,
6 and one thing that has been pointed out to us as
7 students is the fact that you do have efficient
8 questions in regard to costs and benefits, what do y u
9 pay and what do you get. But there are also questions
io in regard to standards, and at some times it is not
ii purely a matter of efficiency, but it is a matter of
12 protecting public health and welfare.
13 And I would suggest in regard to high noise
14 incidence that there may be some in’tances where it
15 may not appear economically efficient, but if you are
16 going to maintain health and welfare standards, as
17 regards noise impact, you may just have to go ahead
18 and do it, anyway. The whole problem surrounds
19 attempting to get both manufacturers and individuals
that own motorcycles to accept the cost of their
21 impacts, rather than spewing them out on the landscape
22 on private individuals, and public individuals, as
23 veil.
24 And I would suggest in that regard that
25 various unit costs are concerned, that one not be too
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1 shocked by th fact that prices may indeed increase
2 for a motorcycle, that you have also got public welfar
3 to weigh.
4 In regard to anti-tampering, as far as an
5 operator, I think that is a very good idea. The
6 questions concerning in-use units and regulations
7 being passed on to the State and local levels, I
8 understand in terms of regulating programs, making
9 sure a program is effective. You have got to have
10 some local monitoring, I’m sure, of individual units.
11 But I would hope that EPA would not totally give up
12 its powers in that regard, what powers it may have,
13 or may propose, because I have found in instances of
14 State regulat-lon in the past, there is a requirement
15 for a guiding hand by someone other than, say, the
16 local State Legislature, particularly when the
17 Legislature may be under heavy lobbying pressures.
The other questions I have is in regard to
19 Page 15 of the document known as Proposed Motorcycle
Noise Emission Regulations, put out by your agency,
21 dated November, ‘77. On Table I, Page 15, Street
22 Motorcycles, Summary of Impact, we address regulatory
23 level, running in DBA’s from 83 to 75, and the price
24 increase is listed, dollars per vehicle, fractional
25 increase, and that ranges from a DBA level of 83 being
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1 maintained at $16, or 17 increase per vehicle, down to
2 a 75 DBA level, and the price increase is given as
$265 per unit, for an 187. increase.
4 I assume this was on an average cost of a
5 motorcycle. That $263 seems awfully steep for noise
6 abatement on one unit. I realize it is probably an
7 average cost figure. But I would question that in
8 regard to, say, the cost of automotive mufflers today,
9 over time. It is possible these dollars may have
10 included total cost of the program. But if so, it
11 should be indicated that this is not —- this 263 is
12 in, that instance, not going to be borne by the
13 consumer of the unit itself. Okay.
14 There is one other point. I am going to be
15 against making a distinction between street motorcycle
16 and off-the-road motorcycles. I think that while one
17 may make that argument, that the very fact of mobility
18 on the part of both types of motorcycles pretty much
19 bears over to human impact areas, as well as non-human
impact areas, and I think that in the off-the-road
21 case, the standard should be the same across the board,
off-the-road and Street. And I would also hope that
23 there would not be changes in regard to engine sizes,
24 et cetera.
25 Other than that, that pretty much closes out
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1 my remarks, and I hope they are listened to, and I
encourage you in your efforts here today. Thank you.
3 MR. ELKINS: Well, thank you for your
4 testimony. Let’s give you a couple of replies to some
of your points. My colleagues may correct me if I’m
6 wrong, but the 75 decibels number that you indicated,
7 the two hundred some-odd dollars, keep in mind that
8 below the 83-decibel level, that other things will
9 have to be done besides just working on the muffler.
io There have to be changes in the engine. The
ii motorcycle that was discussed earlier, the GL-l000,
12 made by Honda has direct drive, does not have chain,
is water-cooled. You can’t regulate the sound levels
14 by just putting a big muffler on it. So I think I’m
15 correct, those numbers would be passed on to the
16 consumer, would be an increased cost in the bike itself
17 MR. EDWARDS: That’s correct. That is the
18 increase in purchase price.
19 MR. SCHUH: For how long a period of time
20 would that hold? Say, given the market, and given
21 five or ten years’ or fifteen years’ time period? In
22 other words, how relevant is the price increase?
23 MR. EDWARDS: Well, of course, it is very
24 relevant to the person who purchases it, every time he
25 purchases it. But perhaps you’re alluding to mass
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i production.
2 MR. SCHUH: Yes.
3 MR. EDWARDS: Repeat production, or
4 sornthing like that, bringing costs down?
5 MR. SCHUN: Yes.
6 MR. EDWARDS: If you are never going to
liquid-cool your engine, and now you’ve got to do it,
it costs every time, no matter how many you make.
9 MR. SCHUH: Right.
MR. EDWARDS: So we’re not expecting those
11 costs to go away.
12 MR. SCHUH: No, certainly. But certainly
13 their impact will have a difference over time. In
14 other words, the first year’s cost, say, is 263, but
15 that may not relate to the consumer the same way it
16 does in that first year versus maybe ten years down
17 the line, or five years.
18 MR. EDWARDS: Well, it is an up-front cost.
19 But every year, a whole new fleet is experiencing the
20 same up-front costs.
21 MR. SCHUH: Right. Okay. Fine.
22 MR. THOMAS: This is a serious question. It
‘23 is one that we’re asking every one of the manufacturer
24 MR. SCHUH: Yes.
25 MR. THOMAS: For example, the vehicle that
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has been referred to many times, the Honda, the large
machine, the water-cooled machine, we would presume,
for example, that there are very extensive R&D costs
4 associated with that machine, and that those are
5 included in the current pricing. Now, if you are
6 taking an existing machine and in a relatively,
potentially relative short period of time, your
ability to amortize those R&D costs may be
9 questionable in a competitive situation. So that you.
io may already have one manufacturer who has already got
those costs incurred, and is now able to scale down
12 the costs, and another manufacturer just may be
13 answering into it. As far as we can see right now,
14 those would be ongoing recurring costs, and we have
15 tried to give the most conservative view, which is the
16 highest cost.
17 MR. SCHUH: Yes.
18 MR. THOMAS: The economies of scale and
19 those actual costs that will be incurred is what, if
I may say so, what the game is all about right now,
21 because we need to have the manufacturers come back
22 formally on the record and tell us exactly what costs
23 they expect to incur, and what the basis is for those
24 costs.
25 MR. SCHUH: Yes.
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MR. THOMAS: And then, of course, you’ll
2 have yet to see what the market influence has to be,
with those facts passed. If they’re not, then the
4 next cost element that has to be incurred would be
5 lost sales. Which from an economic factor, could be
6 very significant.
7 MR. SCHUH: Yes.
8 MR. ELKINS: On the highway standards, let
9 me just say that I understand your point there, about
10 your concern about enforcement. That is a valid
11 point. But I assume you know that the standards that
12 you are referring to, I assume, are the Federal
13 Highway Administration standards, with regard to
14 building of highways. They are not standards in the
15 normal sense. They are criteria guidelines. And
16 exceptions are given to them quite often, across this
17 country.
18 MR. SCHUH: Yes.
19 MR. ELKINS: Whether they should be or not,
20 is another question. But there is not so much a
21 question there of enforcement as simply a matter of
State Highway Department decisions, someone asks the
23 Federal Highway Administration for an extension, and
24 they usually get it. That would not be the case here,
where we would be -- at least in the case of the
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manufacturers -- would the enforcing in a vigorous way
not just a guideline to the manufacturers, when you
get to the State and local level, as we have heard
4 today, sometimes it is very hard to enforce these laws
and that is partly what we need to hear in this
6 testimony.
7 MR. SCHUH: Okay. Could I make one point,
8 just in response to that?
9 MR. ELKINS: Yes.
10 MR. SCHUH: The biggest problem we face here
i i in St. Petersburg in that regard -- realizing that
12 exceptions may be granted -- has been the fact that
13 the process has kind of passed the public by, that
14 there has been no public involvement into the specific
is of the decision.
16 MR. ELKINS: I appreciate that comment, and
17 I have recently initiated some actions which one of
18 these days may result in something, to try to deal
19 with exactly that problem. In fact, a gentleman who
2 ( 1 was here today was among the people who brought that
21 problem to my attention. And I don’t control the
22 Federal Highway Administration, and never will, but I
23 think that there are people who are acting in good
2 faith, and I think that we may be able to bring some
25 change that will not help you in your particular case,
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but perhaps your work will help other people in the
2 future.
3 MR. SCHUH: Fine. Thank you very much.
4 MR. ELKINS: Thank you for coming.
5 Charles Pratt.
MR. PRATT: My name is Charles Pratt. I
7 live up in Dunedin, 2262 Harbor View Drive. And I
8 would like to make a few comments on the noise comment5
9 I’ve been hearing all day today, and possibly on costs
10 involved, primarily from a technical standpoint.
11 I have been working, myself, with motorcycle5
12 and cars for, off and on, for quite a few years;
13 motorcycles, primarily, in the last two years. And
14 you mentioned that the DB levels which you are looking
15 forward to, within the next six or seven years, coming
16 down to under the 80-decibel level, sounds like a good
17 idea. But the only problem I can foresee with this
18 would probably be cost, because of the technical
advances which must be met, to get the sound levels
20 down to the point where people won’t be able to hear
21 what’s really happening.
22 And of course, I agree with the idea that
23 people who modify and/or remove exhaust systems do not
24 make for a public non-awareness program, because
25 everybody hears what goes on immediately. And I would
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agree that people should not modify excessively any
2 vehicle to the point where it becomes a public
3 nuisance, and people should not be able to hear what
4 happens. And in everyday driving, and normal
5 neighborhood running, this should not be the case.
6 And I want to go back on a couple of your
7 comments on the product guarantees and/or replacement
8 or original equipment. You mention in your booklet
9 that should last one year, or approximately 6,000
10 kilometers or 3,700 miles. And there are many of us
11 who drive on the roadway -- I’m one of them, now, in
12 the last couple of years, that have been driving over
13 10,000 miles in six months. And there are many people
14 who drive a lot on the highway, that unless the
15 exhaust system was a free-flow, and quiet, rugged,
16 would not be able to take this punishment for any
17 great length of time.
18 In fact, there was a test run within the
19 last six months, out in California, by an independent
research laboratory, about replacement exhaust systems
21 and sound systems, and they found out that about
22 60 to 707. of them on the market today cannot, under
23 any conditions, be legal in most all States. They are
24 running between 90 and 110 decibels within 15 to 20
25 feet. They cannot conform to most all State standards,
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even though they are being sold as being safe for use.
2 The other noise part that you mentioned,
you are looking for a total noise reduction. This
4 total noise reduction is not going to be, as everybody
has said before, just about exhaust. It will be
6 engine, total engine and total pipe modification.
This will come with a tuned intake, tuned exhaust,
8 water-cooling, anti-vibration, anti-noise, dampers.
9 It will have to be shaft-drive. All two strokes will
be out, or close to being out, unless they can be
11 water-cooled. And the pollution standards come down.
12 Okay.
13 What I want to ask you is a rather loaded
14 question. Whether it can be answered, I don’t know.
15 Because of the noise levels that you wish to introduce,
16 and all the products now are also under -- I just have
17 been talking to a few dealers up North, in the
18 Dunedln-Clearwater area -- and as of January 1 of this
19 year, ‘78, the motorcycles that are made after this
20 point are also under emission standard requirements.
21 These emission standard requirements, I have
22 not been able to get the direct facts, but I assume
23 that because of emission standards, as on automobiles,
24 which there are Borne that are guaranteed for up to
25 Ii 50,000 miles, in past years, and also on some current
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MR. THOMAS: Okay. First, let me answer
2 that the regulations apply to the newly-manufactured
3 motorcycles. There is no retrofit requirement here.
So anyone who owns a motorcycle prior to the effective
date of either the emission or the noise regulations,
6 under the Federal rules, would have to take no action
7 with respect to his bike. All right?
The other answer goes on, is that yes, the
9 motorcycle manufacturer must design and build that
io machine to comply with all applicable regulations,
ii Federal and State, which says that they’re building
12 them to meet the emission standards now, and they’re
13 having to build, for example, right now, to meet
14 California and Florida noise levels.
15 For some of these manufacturers, they won’t
16 have to do virtually anything. And even in the absenc
17 of the Federal standards, those standards for
18 California and Florida are more stringent than the
29 Federal standards, and those markets are so large that
20 it is clear that virtually all manufacturers will
21 design to meet those standards. Otherwise, they will
22 not sell.
23 MR. PRATT: Well, this is what I’m wondering,
24 that if that major change is in the offing, which seems
to be, in the next six or seven years, that all
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1 manufacturers are going to have to go to the
2 water-cooled shaft-driven type motorcycles, similar to
the big Hondas and other touring bikes. And if they
don’t do this, they will either not sell, or they’ll
be restricted to certain States, or not at all.
6 MR. THOMAS: Well, under the Federal
standards, they are restricted from selling at all.
They’ve got to meet a noise level. However, it is a
9 performance level, not a design level, so it is a
io question of how they want to design and what they can
ii do, and whether we are looking at new technology and
12 new materials, as we are seeing in the automotive
13 industry and other industries. We don’t know for sure
14 what they would do to meet a 73-decibel level. We’ve
15 talked to every mar ufacturer at great length, and
16 we’ve compiled what we think are some good engineering
17 approaches on how they might solve the problem, and
18 we’ve costed that out.. So the question of what they
19 will do is up to them.
2(3 MR. PRATT Okay, thank you.
21 MR. THOMAS: May I ask a question?
22 MR. PRATT: Sure.
23 MR. THOMAS: I’d like to know who that lab
24 is that you referred to, or what the source of that
25 information is.
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MR. PRATT: I think it’s number one products
in California. I don’t know whether it’s San Franciscc
or maybe Los Angeles. I think it is number one test
4 products. This was either in one of the motorcycle
5 magazines within the last two months, there was a big
6 write-up on the twelve big replacement item
7 manufacturers, and they did a big test on this, and
their decibel ratings on all of these, what they did
9 and did not do, and how long they Lasted under full
10 throttle run for so many minutes.
11 MR. EDWARDS: I think I know what you’re
12 talking about, but I don’t recall the durability
13 information there.
14 MR. PRATT: The durability was not over a
15 period of time. It was like over a period of minutes
16 under full throttle run dynainometer and they found out
17 that quite a few of them blew out their glass packs
18 and various other assorted goods, and they decreased
19 the noise lowering and increased the noise level
extremely much more than what would have been allowed,
21 and some of them literally blew apart. They ran down
22 full throttle for so many minutes under so much
temperature and heat, and they literally blew their
24 guts out.
25 MR. EDWARDS: I think that isan issue that
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I brought with me on the airplane to read, which I’m
going through about eight magazines at once right now.
3 I will read that article more closely. I’m sure I
know which one it is. I think I know what you’re
5 talking about.
6 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much.
7 MR. PRATT: Okay.
8 MR. ELKINS: Mrs. Lydia Kronis. Clad to
9 have you with us. Go ahead.
10 MRS. KRONIS: Thank you. I’m Lydia Kronis.
ii I live at 33536 Gulf Boulevard in Madeira Beach. My
12 husband and I own a motel right next to a bar, a very
13 popular bar in Madeira Beach. Maybe you know it.
14 Maybe you don’t. I don’t know. Skip’s. But it’s
15 quite a hangout for motorcycle groups that come up in
16 there, and it seems as though at 2:00 o’clock in the
17 morning they all like to leave together, and all rev
18 their motorcycles at the same time.
19 Now, I know, our police just don’t do
20 anything about it. By the time we call, them, and they
21 come, they’re gone. And they said they have to hear
22 the noise or they can’t do it. They said they don’t
23 have the meters. They go on and on. So we don’t get
24 anywhere. So the thing that I’d like to know is if
25 you could do something about it, which I have heard
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1 right now, if there is anything you can do about it,
2 so that these motorcycles are made in such a way that
they can’t tamper with them, and they can keep the
4 levels down.
5 Because we just get complaints from our
6 guests, that they just can’t sleep, and they say,
7 can’t you do anything about it? And I said no. You
8 call the police and complain. Maybe you’ll get more
g results than I do. And this goes on and on every day.
io And then they go down Gulf Boulevard like, you know,
ii they are just revving like there is no end. And then
12 they’ll get down to the next traffic light, and the
13 girl that I am with, she’s at that traffic light, and
14 then they get there and they start revving again.
Is And then they just bother all the motel
16 owners all the way down, and actually, ‘e’re
17 representing the Motel Association, an they are all
18 very upset about the motorcycles, and the way they just
19 gang together and just take over Gulf Boulevard and
Madeira Beach, and then they go on to all the beaches.
21 So I don’t know, if there is any way to possibly
22 control the noise, we’d appreciate it an awful lot.
23 That’s all I have to say.
24 MR. ELKINS: Well, we appreciate that
25 testimony. I don’t think we know of any way to make a
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1 motorcycle tamper-proof.
2 MRS. KRONIS: I know, but if there were, it
3 would be great.
4 MR. ELKINS: It would be great, yes.
5 MRS. KRONIS: It sure would.
6 MR. ELKINS: But we think that this rule
7 does offer some relief. I think, first of all,
8 companies that make mufflers that don’t work very well
9 will have great difficulty in continuing to make them,
10 because they will be illegal under the Federal law.
11 And to the extent that we can enforce that law, they
12 will have difficulty making them, A person who takes
13 a good muffler, but then takes the guts out of it,
14 takes the baffles out of it, that’s harder to control.
15 There one would have to depend on local ordinances,
16 that would either have an inspection system, catch the
17 person going down the road with a meter and pull them
over and inspect the muffler, or merely make a visual
19 inspection based on, in some cases, looking up in
there, and you can tell that it’s been modified.
21 So we believe that there are local ordinances
that can be passed which can be effective. They are
23 not a hundred percent effective. We think there are
24 communities across the country that have done this.
25 Of course, one of the reasons for holding this hearing
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1 is to have some testimony by people who run local
2 programs, to see what they really think, do these
3 really work. Your immediate problem, we don’t have a
4 solution to.
5 MRS. KRONIS: I tell you, ordinances don’t
6 mean a thing. That I’ll tell you. Especially in
7 Madeira Beach, you know. You know, they pass
ordinances, and then the police don’t enforce them.
9 And so what’s the use of having the ordinance? This
10 is how we feel, you know. That is all I have to say.
11 Thank you.
12 MR. THOMAS: I’ve got one thing for you.
13 The Federal Government in Washington is not too good
14 at solving real world problems, like the ones you’ve
15 got there. We can only deal with the big national
16 and international picture.
17 MRS. KRONIS: I’m just hoping they do
18 something with these motorcycles.
19 MR. THOMAS: But what I was going to suggest
20 -- and I am very sorry that we have heard from you
21 this late -- because you had two or three people here
22 today who could help solve that problem.
23 MRS. KRONIS: Oh, really?
24 MR. THOMAS: Specifically, the Head of the
25 State Noise Control Program in Tallahassee, and a
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1 Florida Highway Patrol. Arid I think some of the
2 things you may have heard here about who’s got the
3 power to deal with some of the on-road offenses, may
4 I suggest at least that you communicate directly with
the Florida Highway Patrol and with Mr. Jesse
6 Borthwick, and theytli give you his name out at the
7 desk, if yOU’d like, in Tallahassee, the Head of the
8 Noise Control Program. I’d kind of like to know a
9 few months from now if anything happens.
10 MRS. KRONIS: Maybe, because that is a Stat
ii highway.
12 MR. THOMAS: That’s right. And I think
13 they’d be the ones to talk to, if you could.
14 MRS. KRONIS: Okay, thank you.
15 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
16 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Mrs. Lizabeth Bisscotto.
17 MRS. BISSCOTTO: Yes, my name is
Mrs. Lizabeth Bisscotto. I reside at 13990 Gulf
19 Boulevard, Madeira Beach. My husband and I own the
20 Skyline Motel and Apartments.
21 MR. ELKINS: I hear that’s a very noisy
street.
23 MRS. BISSCOTTO: Yes, it is. This folder
24 that I brought with me, this folder that I brought
25 with me represents correspondence since 1972 that my
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i husband and I had with our City officials and the
2 police department, and I have also material in here
3 from the Florida Highway Safety Department in
4 Tallahassee, complaining about the noise nuisance and
5 the noise problems in our area of Madeira Beach. So
6 far, we’ve gotten nowhere.
7 And after seeing the articles in the paper,
8 I decided that maybe I would like to come here and
9 just possibly present the statement, so that it will
10 be on the record officially. Our major complaint has
11 been with the noisy vehicles, and the fact that the
12 local police department has not been successful in
13 apprehending the violators. We have provided license
14 tag numbers, t cetera. I won’t go into that. But
15 it’s just a very frustrating situation that we have
16 been in since purchasing the motel back in 1971.
17 And our guests have constantly been
18 complaining to us. We have been complaining. But so
19 far, not much has been accomplished. So I would just
20 like to read this statement, that I took parts from
21 some of the material that I have in the folder.
We have been residents of Madeira Beach
23 since October, 1971, as owners of the Skyline Motel
24 and Apartments located at 13999 Gulf Boulevard. We
25 have a file at least an inch and a half thick with
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letters of complaints to our City Fathers and police
2 department about the noisy vehicles traveling our
3 City streets. Back in 1974, when the noise meters
were approved for monitoring noisy vehicles, we were
5 informed that no monitoring could be done in our area
6 because of the building overhangs causing a tunnel
7 echo effect when noisy vehicles passed by.
8 The police department tells us their hands
9 are tied. It is up to the inspection stations to do
10 the job of declaring a vehicle with an altered exhaust
ii system too noisy. Our motel guests and winter tenants
12 are constantly complaining about the noise level.
13 They are exposed to the excessive noise regardless of
14 the time of diy or night. We just have to sit back
15 and take it and like it. Our business depends on the
16 traveling public. People do like to enjoy a quiet
17 night’s rest when they stop for the night.
IS We feel the situation is a serious one, and
it is definitely affecting our mental and physical
20 well-being. When can we expect to get some relief
21 from the noise pollution? There is no sense to have
22 all kinds of regulations on the books, if no one is
23 concerned about strict enforcement of them. The
24 Government needs to stop the manufacturers from
25 producing mufflers, tailpipes and other devices that
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286
can be used to alter the original factory-equipped
exhaust system on all vehicles, whether it be a
motorcycle, an automobile or a truck.
4 Motorcycle operators seem to enjoy immunity
5 from the law. And I say this because we have yet to
6 see one along Gulf Boulevard stopped by a policeman
7 for violating a noise ordinance. The crackle and the
8 roar of their loud exhaust erodes our tranquility,
9 and is the most common violence to the eardrums and
10 most inexcusable, as far as we are concerned. Thank
11 you.
12 MR. ELKINS: Thank you. Do we have any
13 questions?
14 MR. EDWARDS: Mrs. Bisscotto, you said that
15 the police department -- is that who you said? -- would
say that they don’t have authority to issue a citation,
17 and they have to go to someone with a sound meter?
18 MRS. BISSCOTTO: Right. The Madeira Beach
19 does have meters to monitor the noise, but in our --
at our corner there, they claim that they cannot
21 monitor the noise because of the overhangs of the
22 buildings. If it is a two-foot overhang, there is no
23 way. There are buildings on Gulf Boulevard side --
24 we’re on the beach side, we’re on the opposite side of
25 the beach -- and it just seems that they can’t do any
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monitoring. They have to do that in an open area,
2 they said, where there’s no type of an overhang.
MR. EDWARDS: Okay. It’s too bad that
Sgt. Smith is not here. He’s from the Florida Highway
5 Patrol. Perhaps you heard him earlier. I asked him
6 what fraction of the citations that he issues is based
7 Ofl sound level. He said 1007.. And the State of
8 Florida gave us a bad time for not going below 78
9 decibels, and I’m getting a little made at the State
of Florida if they don’t have people out there who
11 can’t look at a muffler and tell it’s been tampered
12 with or removed or had the guts taken out of it, then
13 they don’t know what they’re doing.
14 That’s the easiest way in the world. We had
15 a police officer in San Francisco who came to our
16 hearing in Anaheim, and it is all in the attitude.
17 He started off his statement by saying, if you come to
18 San Francisco and you make a lot of noise, you’re in
19 trouble. And I can tell you what he would do. He’d
20 sit there in his police car with another officer. He
21 would check every single one of those folks, take one
22 look at the muffler, and issue a citation. And he
23 did this every single night until they got out of
24 there.
25 I think I am very confident that is what he
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would do, and I think the situation in the State of
Florida, where they cannot issue a citation without a
sound level measurement, is not an effective way to
4 do it. Then the next time I talk with Mr. Borthwick
5 or Mr. Smith, I will point that out again to them.
6 MR. THOMAS: I’d like to also say that if
7 that is an accurate reflection of the response by the
8 officials to whom you talked, I would suggest that
9 that’s an entirely inappropriate and incorrect responsE
10 that If the problem is as severe as you indicate - -
ii and I’m caveating this, because we don’t have data in
12 front of us, so I’m not sure -- but I’m not
13 questioning you, either -- if it is that severe, you
14 probably have gross violators there, where the high
15 level of precision, where you would need a completely
16 cleared area, and not be concerned with reverberation
17 effecting it, or reflected sound, is just a
non-sequitur. It is totally irrelevant to that kind
19 of a situation.
And I would suggest once again now that you
21 do as I suggested to the preceding witness. I would
suggest you write directly to Mr. Jesse Borthwick of
23 the Department of Environmental Control of the State
24 of Florida in Tallahassee, and to the Head of the
25 Florida Highway Patrol, because I think that you would
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find that indeed you can get relief, and the overhangs
of those buildings is not going to give them that kind
of a problem.
4 MRS. BISSCOTTO: Well, another thing that I
5 would like to mention is that we have even asked the
6 police chief about parking in our rear parking lot,
7 and he said that they can’t conceal their cars when
8 they’re, you know, either using radar or the noise
9 monitoring equipment. So it just seems like it is
10 hopeless, as far as we’re concerned.
11 MR. THOMAS: Well, I’m sorry they’re not
12 here, and I wish they were, so that we could talk to
13 them directly. Because again, it sounds like they’re
14 part of the problem, not part of th solution. And I
15 agree entirely with Mr. Edwards that there may be just
16 more question of attitude there than anything else.
17 And maybe votes will count at the next election-time.
18 NR. ELKINS: We won’t get into that.
19 MRS. BISSCOTTO: Well, thank you very much.
MR. ELKINS: Thank you for your testimony.
21 Carolyn Ferguson. Come right up.
22 MISS FERGUSON: I am Carolyn Ferguson. I
23 live at 1701 - 53rd Street South, in Golden Gulfport.
24 It seems to me that a lot of time and money is spent
on a toy. I know it is a very expensive toy, but it
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is a luxury. I can’t see that a motorcycle is
2 essential at all. And it seems to be a toy versus the
3 health and welfare of human beings. And I’m on the
side of the human beings, really. And I’m not
anti-joy for the young, but I think their joy ends
6 where people’s health and welfare begins.
7 And I just, I appreciate their liking to
8 flaunt themselves, but when th y flaunt their machine
9 at 2:00 A.M., I think they should be stopped. And a
io gentleman over there, Mr. Thomas, said it was a
ii question of attitudes, and he’s probably right. And I
12 don’t know whether more -- I don’t know what ord
13 are on the books, and I don’t like the Federal
14 Government to take over things. The State, even on a
15 local level, would be good. But when the local
16 attitude is uncooperative and seemingly indifferent to
17 the welfare of its citizens, well, then it seems
18 somebody else should do something about it.
19 Good-bye.
20 MR. ELKINS: Thank you for coming. We
21 appreciate that comment.
22 Just in defense of local officials who
23 aren’t here to defend themselves, it is quite possible
24 that the local officials who feel they cannot monitor
25 because of the overhang are perfectly honest in their
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view, that that’s true, and the overhang does have an
effect, most l kely would. But as Mr. Thomas says,
3 perhaps they haven’t thought of the fact that if the
bikes are excessively noisy, that it wouldn’t make any
5 difference. You can make an allowance for that and
6 still find that they’re in violation. So we can’t
7 be sure of the attitude of an absent person, so I just
s want to say that and leave that to you, to make that
9 judgment.
10 Mr. Patten.
11 MR. PATTEN: My name is Walter Patten,
12 I live in Clearwater, just north of here, and in a
13 new and quite quiet community. We still hear the
14 whippoorwills at nighttime once in awhile. But one
15 thing that prompted me to come down was the chap out
16 back who has a nice-looking motorcycle, but why does
17 this all happen at 2:00 A.M.? There are other normal
18 things during the daytime, but he takes this damn
thing out at 2:00 o’clock in the morning. And of
20 course, I guess they must enjoy flooring the throttle
21 or something like that, standing still, press it a
22 little bit, put out plenty of noise.
23 And of course, you’re dealing with means to
24 correct some of this, that would be applied in the
25 future, and is not existing. But as it has been
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pointed out, enforcement is a big problem. And no
2 matter how you make them, even in the future. And I
think I know the police get tired of their job, or
what it is, but they have so many things they get
5 sidetracked. I lived in Massachusetts for a number of
6 years. I know with a hanging license plate, you
7 wouldn’t get three miles until a cop pulled you over.
8 But here, you can hang it upsiJe-down in the back
9 window, and nobody pays any attention. The same thing
10 with a hitch-ball on the back that obscures the
11 license plate. That wouldn’t go in some other States
12 than here. So I think enforcement is at this end,
13 not so much -- we’re not going to have any Federal
14 boys out inspecting them along the roads, but it may
15 be a good thing if we did once in awhile, like a
16 truck-weighing station, now, come on over and have
17 your muffler tested.
18 But even the State inspections here on cars,
19 and the community I lived in before -- I’m getting
20 away from your subject, but it is still the general
21 idea of noise -- also the internal combustion engine -
22 but about 2:00 o’clock every morning, the guy would
bring this Mustang with a gutless muffler up through
24 this retirement community. Of course, he did not live
25 there, I’m sure. And I never felt mad enough to get
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up out of bed and wait for him and get his number or
2 something like that. But I know that car was
3 inspected. I don’t know if the inspector revved it
4 up, he would know it was an illegal muffler, and he
didn’t have to look at it. You can hear it for half
6 a mile.
7 So those are the few comments that I have to
8 make on the subject.
9 MR. ELKINS: Fine, thank you. You mentioned
the weighing stations in the case of trucks being used
ii in interstate commerce now. The Department of
12 Transportation, the U.S. Department of Transportation,
13 does measure trucks at weigh stations and determines
14 whether they are in violation of an EPA standard. And
15 although they have very few inspectors, something over
16 100, and they’re looking for safety problems, as well
17 as noise problems, they have inspected many thousands
of trucks each year, and we have data from the State
19 of Florida that shows that, in fact, the highways are
20 somewhat quieter because of this. So that there is
21 some hope there. But you are perfectly correct to say,
22 perfectly correct in saying that there will not be
23 Federal inspectors or police officers out enforcing
24 on the motorcycle regulations. It just won’t work that
25 way.
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MR. FATTEN: Well, we used to have Japanese
2 beetle inspectors back in the ‘2O’s I guess some
3 time before your time, I’m sure. But when Japanese
4 beetles were spreading from New Jersey, I think is
where they first cropped up - -
6 MR. ELKINS: Maybe you could find a few of
7 these inspectors and tell them we have a new problem
8 called motorcycle noise.
9 MR. PATTEN: Something like that.
10 MR. ELKINS: Well, thank you very much for
11 your testimony.
12 MR. PATTEN: You’re certainly welcome, and
13 thank you.
14 MR. ELKINS: Is there anyone else in the
15 audience that would like to say something? Yes, come
16 right up.
17 MR. FOX: Thank you. I’m Richard Fox. I
18 have been three times President of the Central Florida
BMW Motorcycle Owners, Inc. We’re registered as a
20 regular institution in Tallahassee. We’re proud of it.
21 And let me say that this has been very interesting.
22 thank you for this chance to talk to you. And very
23 definitely, certainly there are two sides to this
24 problem that we have. However, legislation is not
25 always the answer.
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1 To point out one case, is the moped, which
2 as BMW owners, it’s abhorent to us to see these --
well, I think they were brought on by the senior
4 citizens who wanted to pedal along, when they came to
a hill they’d just punch the button and the motor
6 takes them up the hill. But if you noticed,
7 everybody’s aunt and uncle and children have jumped
8 on these things and are running all over the street.
9 So we do have some problems, I grant you.
10 And I think we do have some quarrels with
11 the motorcycle, but I think you are jumping on the
12 motorcycle a little bit too harshly. We have many
13 noises we have to live with. For instance, I have
14 just got out of the hospital not lo ig ago, and the
15 County slicing machine proceeded to clean up all the
16 debris down the Street, and if you want to get your
17 decibels machine or your meter out and listen to one
18 of those, I think the thing is just going to destruct
19 right there.
20 And I can name more instances of noise. My
21 next-door neighbor has a 750 with all the baffles out
22 of it, and he cranks it up there in the carport, and
23 it just reverberates right over into our home. But I
24 just went over and talked to him about it, so he’s
driving his truck to work now, really, in the morning.
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So with all these things that I’ve heard,
2 these are just some remarks that I’m going to pass on
3 to you. Most generally, I grant you. But I still
4 have to defend the motorcycle, and we are now in kind
5 of a cycle that we’re looking for other alternatives,
6 for instance, rather than gasoline, we’re looking for
7 solar energy as an alternative.
B And don’t be too harsh on the motorcycles,
9 because it may be an alternative to some of our
10 resource shortages that we have, and I don’t want to
11 see, you know, legislation make a mistake again, and
12 be too harsh on the motorcycle, because I think we’re
13 going to be having more of them.
14 If you remember back in the ‘20’s and the
15 ‘30’s, when you saw the bikes with the sidecars, and
16 they were different. And I’d like to say the elite
17 groups of motorcycle people, the BMW’s, and the
18 Rarley-Davidsons and the bikes that probably you are
19 familiar with right now, and the Ionda, they are good
20 people. Because stop and think, some of your law
21 enforcement people ride these same vehicles, and if
22 they help you sometime, you don’t care whether he’s on
23 a motorcycle or whether he’s in a patrol car.
24 But there again, the energy thing is there,
25 and the motorcycle is going to come into its own now.
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i them. I’m proud of motorcycles. I hope you all can
2 work together to solve some of these problems that we
do have.
4 Thank you, gentlemen.
5 MR. ELKINS: Thank you, Mr. Fox.
6 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Fox, could I ask you a
7 question or two?
8 MR. FOX: Certainly. It’s a two-way street,
isn’t it?
10 MR. EDWARDS: Right. We’ve had arguments
11 today that it is essential -- not essential -- some
12 folks modify their motorcycles to make more noise, so
13 they can be heard by automobile operators. Now, the
14 BMW is a pretty quiet motorcycle.
15 MR. FOX: Absolutely.
16 MR. EDWARDS: Have you modified yours so you
17 can be heard by cars?
18 MR. FOX: I am proud that I can go by you,
19 and you never even know that I went by you. You will
20 never hear it.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Do you think that having a
22 quiet motorcycle is making them more hazardous than
23 they are already? Admittedly, it is a dangerous sport.
24 MR. FOX: No, I don’t think so. I don’t
25 think a motorcycle is hazardous because it is quiet.
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if you are a new motorcyclist, you have to have all
2 your senses going for you. If you are out there on
3 the Street, with all the big four-wheelers and the
4 trucks and so forth. And really, a good motorcyclist
5 is a safer vehicle than perhaps some of the other
6 four-wheelers and trucks and so forth that we see on
7 our city streets.
8 Did I answer your question?
9 MR. EDWARDS: Yes. I have a couple more.
MR. FOX: Go ahead.
11 MR. EDWARDS: You’re doing great. I did
12 have one question on the BMW. Do you feel that BMW’s
13 are louder now than they used to be?
14 MR. FOX: No. BMW’s are not louder than the3
15 used to be. BMW is a machine that has continued back,
16 clear back in the 1920’s, back to 1923, so their
17 engineering has been good. They’ve always prided
18 I themselves on having the utmost in engineering, and
19 a quiet vehicle, with prestige. They make the cars.
They also made the engines for some of our first
21 Atlantic air crossings.
22 And I have a 1967 BMW 500. I have two
23 1970 BMW’s that are 900 cc’s. And they’re both,
24 they’re both quiet. And I would say also that the
25 olc bike does not have stock BMW mufflers on it. I
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1 won’t mention the company, because I don’t think it
2 is relevant. But it is very quiet, also. It would
3 not be abhorent in any way in any community.
4 MR. EDWARDS: One final question.
5 MR. FOX: Yes.
6 MR. EDWARDS: Sometimes we’re pretty sneaky
7 up here. We’ve had people tell us that mopeds should
8 not be regulated. That these things are bicycles wich
9 a little helper motor on it, basically. And just
10 should never be considered with other two-wheel-
11 powered vehicles. Now, I counter with the argument
12 that in my observation, I see them out in the vehicle
13 stream, and to me they are used more like motorcycles
14 than bicycles, and I was wondering, since you touched
15 on mopeds, if you have any comment on that.
16 MR. FOX: Well, I’d say that mopeds are
17 being used just about in every related way of
18 transportation that a full-sized motorcycle is, with
19 the exception of getting out in the dirt, and they’re
20 not very good out in the dirt.
21 MR. EDWARDS: In other words, you do see
them in the vehicle stream when you ride your
23 motorcycle?
24 MR. FOX: Yes, they’re in the vehicle stream,
25 with the four-wheelers and the trucks and the
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1 full-size motorcycles, and in betweend, and we have to
2 look out for theta, too, because they have no lights,
3 they have no license plates, they have no insurance.
4 So if we hit theta, they’re not going to finish paying
5 for my $4,900 BMW, because 1 hit him and tore up the
6 front fender on the thing, on my BMW, which cost about
7 $35 or $40, with the paint job that it has.
8 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you for bearing with me.
9 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Fox, I have one question.
10 You have evidenced great pride in your group and what
11 you stand for, and the fact that you can go anywhere
12 in the country and be accepted. What do you suggest
13 society -- not necessarily government -- ought to do,
14 if anything, about the small percentage of people who
15 are giving you a bad name?
16 MR. FOX: Well, the mopeds are just one
17 instance.
MR. ELKINS: What about people who modify
their bikes?
MR. FOX: Yes, absolutely. I can name
21 others. I can sympathize with people about the noise,
because I have them in my community, as well. They
are back to the same problem. Again, I think that we
24 can get some relief from inspection stations, from law
25 enforcement officers. And I’m a letter-carrier, and
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if I’m going to put out a sign, red white and blue,
2 Unic d States Government, I think they can bring some
3 pressure to bear on these problems that we have in
4 solving those problems that we have.,
5 Would you repeat your question again?
6 MR. ELKINS: Well, I just wondered what
7 society should do to keep people from modifying their
8 motorcycles, to give you a bad name. Should we make
9 it illegal to manufacture exhaust systems which cause
10 motorcycles to become noisy?
11 MR. FOX: I think that doing it to the point
12 where it’s ludicrous, or where it’s impinging upon
13 the motorcycle, per Se, i think it is going to do more
14 harm than good, because like I say, I think our
15 motorcycles are going to come on more and more.
16 Perriaps even we may have electric ones. Wouldn’t that
17 be nice? They would really be quiet. And so I think
18 we have to depend on our community, on our law
19 enforcement officers and our legislation, United State
20 Government. And like some of the people who have
21 spoken., they’ve just about contacted every source that
22 they could to try and solve this problem that we have.
23 I think that motorcycle manufacturers have
24 been going along with the decibels that we have now.
25 I have to admit I’m a little btt ignorant on whether
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1 it’s 80 or 83 currently, now, something like that.
2 And they’re not objectionable now. But t think the
3 objection comes with these exceptions that we find,
4 that we come up with in different places in our
5 community, and we just have to Light fire with fire,
6 and solve these things in whatever way we can,
7 sometimes.
8 MR. ELKINS: Good. Thank you very much for
9 your comments.
10 MR. FOX: Oh, I’d like to say one more thing,
11 The American people have been kept going a lot on the
12 glamour of the four-wheeler for many, many years.
13 And to put down a. motorcycle being attractive and an
14 eye-catcher and something glamorous, I think we’re
15 discriminating a little bit on the motorcycle, too.
16 People are proud, very proud of their motorcycles,
17 and if you will stop and just talk to them, you’ll get
18 an insight to the people who are proud of the
19 motorcycles, and use them to good advantage in touring
29 and American exchange of conversation and a good time,
21 like we all like to do. So I hope, you know, we have
22 a two-way Street here.
23 MR. ELKINS: Good, thank you.
24 Now, is there anyone else in the audience
25 who would like to make a comment? Fine, we’ll break
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1 for dinner, I guess. We announced that we would be
2 available in the evening. Some people have to work
3 during the day, and could not come, and we will
4 definitely be here to hear them this evening. But
while they’re not here, we’ll take a break, have
6 something to eat, and I appreciate all of you being
7 here today, and hope that it has been somewhat
8 enjoyable. We have enjoyed your testimony.
9 Thank you.
10 (Whereupon, a recess was had).
11 _____________________________________________
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UNITED STATES
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
PUBLIC HEARING
VOLUME IV
Friday, May 5, 1978
The Ramada Inn. South
St. Petersb ’rg, Florida
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1 MR. ELKINS: We’ll call this hearing back
2 to order. This is the second of three hearings we’re
3 holding across the country on motorcycle noise, and
4 we’ve had a very good hearing already, here in
5 St. Petersburg. And we’re glad that all of you have
6 turned out for the evening session of this. We are
7 seeking the best possible advice from all groups on
what we should do about motorcycle noise, or whether
9 we should do anything, from people in industry, from
10 those who ride motorcycles, and those who have to
11 listen to them.
12 We are keeping a transcript of everything
13 that’s said, and people who are interested in getting
14 a copy of the transcript, you can get information
15 about that in the front, where you signed in. We have
16 a rather large panel, I suppose, it may look like the
17 Supreme Court to some of you. As I explained this
18 morning, we have a number of people on the panel
19 because we feel that those people who will be involved
20 in making the final decision about what should be
21 done as a. result of these hearings really should come
22 and listen to the testimony, and not just hear about
23 it from somebody else, or read about it in a big
24 transcript like this. So for that reason, we have a
25 iumberof us here.
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1 We’ll start this evening with the testimony
2 of Charles Wilson. Mr. Wilson, would you like to come
up? And you can either stand at the podium or sit at
the table, as you wish.
5 MR. WILSON: First off, I don’t know if it
6 is necessary to say this or not, but I’m just an
7 average concerned citizen. I’m not a representative
8 of any group, nor do I own a motorcycle at this point.
9 MR. ELKINS: Could you move the microphone
10 a little bit closer?
11 MR. WILSON: Certainly. I am concerned,
12 though, on several points of proposed EPA regulations,
13 mostly involved with freedom, not only individual, but
14 of small marketing concerns, the economics involved,
15 and various relations between the Federal Government,
16 State and local municipalities. Let me see where to
17 start here.
18 I guess the first thing I should do is
register a protest, andalso make a point, that the
20 possibility of corruption increases with centralized
21 powers. To specifically bring this into point, I’m
22 referring to Jill Lucas’ remarks that were made in
23 the St. Petersburg Times, which said, “In Anaheim we
24 are expecting the Hell’s Angels to come out and argue
25 against the regulation. We’re hoping in St. Petersburg
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1 the people will come out and cheer us.”
2 I take that as being an example of, let’s
3 say -- well, put it this way -- I would be very
4 concerned if someone that had significant power over
products that I intended to buy could arbitrarily say
6 yea or nay, or let’s hear it for these regulations or
7 not, arid have it directly affect rae. It is very
8 coercive.
9 Even if regulations, certain regulations are
10 reasonable, the very coercive effect sets a very bad
11 precedent. I think also, that, for example, the
12 anti-tampering assumes guilt. It seems that to render
13 ineffective or to modify assumes that a person cannot
14 significantly improve the quieting capacity, let’s say,
15 of a muffler, and that’s just a false assumption.
16 With these proposed rules, it seems obvious
17 to me that the big will get bigger and the small will
18 get smaller. The large Japanese manufacturing concerns
19 Harley-Davidson, several of the large after-rn rket
20 manufacturers, would tend to get bigger and bigger at
21 the expense of the small manufacturers. This is
admitted by the EPA, and isa very distressing fact,
23 because again, it assumes that the size of the company
24 and the amount of economic whollop they can pack has
25 an effect on --
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No, I am saying that wrong. It assumes that
2 mere size and economic effect is necessary for
3 production of quiet motorcycles. That’s false. The
4 proposal seems to give small weight to the matter of
5 weight, in that there is much talk of the advantages
6 of water-cooling, for example, larger mufflers.
7 Weight is very important in a motorcycle, and while
8 chain-driven bikes and air-cooled bikes are necessaril)
9 a little bit louder, the effect of rattling can be
10 minimized. But the effects of water-cooling are hard
11 to minimize.
12 The addition of an extra hundred pounds - -
13 as a concrete example, let me mention the bikes --
14 the effect of 100 pounds is very, very much an effect
15 on a biker. The CX-500 Honda is a model, is a
16 V-twin, 500 cc’s, weighs about 450 pounds. Moto-Guzzi
17 has a new V-twin 500 that is air-cooled, that weighs
18 100 pounds less. Now, 100 pounds may not be too much
19 to a car, but to a motorcycle, it is. And to
20 arbitrarily -- or not arbitrarily -- but to push
21 towards water-cooling as, say, a cure-all, or
22 something that helps us get down to this level, is a
very high price to pay for an extra DB or two.
24 I also am concerned about the pollution
25 levels themselves, because while even if the goals
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1 themselves were reasonable, they must also be measured
2 against the cost of achieving them. As an example,
in automobiles right now, we have achieved in exhaust
4 emissions what some say are very reasonable levels,
yet if you had a solution to the catalytic converters
6 that did not use platinum or rodium, you could walk
into General Motors and almost name your price. There
g is a vertical cost for these horizontal goals. I
9 dofltt think that these have necessarily been looked at
10 sufficiently, or considered.
11 The enforcement of the standards rest pretty
12 much, lie pretty much on two levels. One on the
13 manufacturer, one of local law enforcement. My
14 complaint against heavy reliance at the manufacturer
15 controls is that the local law enforcement will have a
16 function to serve, anyway, regardless of whether these
17 rules and regulations are implemented. I would think
18 that if the local law enforcement is necessary, it
19 might also be sufficient to counteract whatever loud
20 motorcycles one runs across.
21 Which brings up a point of national
regulations and their applicability to local situations.
22 The EPA has said, if I’m not mistaken, that no State
24 may enact laws that are different from the EPA’s
25 regulations concerning noise. Once again, this is a
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1 1 very concentrated centralization of power. It also
2 does not take into account local factors. A small
town may not need 78 DB, it may not be such a problem
for the people concerned, yet for negligible gain in
5 noise reduction there’s a very measurable gain in the
6 amount of materials it takes to achieve this reduction
7 It is, again, a similar situation, horizontal goals
S versus the vertical cost.
9 It is not necessarily proven that 78 decibels
10 would be a rational standard for the whole country.
ii Also, indirect costs, like indirect taxation, creates
12 waste and fosters inequities. For the EPA to say
13 costs of warranties cannot be passed on to the
14 consumer is to engage in hyperbole, because in fact,
15 the costs are passed on to the consumer indirectly,
16 for each amount or each test that’s required. Each
17 cost, extra cost that’s required for the manufacturer,
18 this cost will be passed on to the consumer. And to
19 suggest that the cost of a warranty cannot be passed
20 on to the consumer is demonstrably false, and therefor
21 at least this section should be rethought or rewritten
22 in a more reasonable fashion.
23 My conclusion, if there is one, would be,
24 guess, even if the regulations were reasonable, I
25 do i ot feel the EPA is the agency that should
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i 1..
administer them, because the centralization of powers
2 is coercive. One does not necessarily get rational
a regulations from rational thought by supposedly
4 rational people acting in our best interests. And
once again, the horizontal goals must be measured
6 against the vertical costs, and I don’t think that has
7 necessarily been done.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. ELKINS: Thank you, Mr. Wilson. If I
10 may make a few responses, and then you may want to
‘11 respond to me.
12 MR. WILSON: Certainly.
13 MR. ELKINS: First, with regard to the
14 quotation which you gave from the local newspaper, and
15 your concern about the impression that gave of the
16 Government intent, I couldn’t agree with you more.
17 That gives a very bad impression of what this whole
thing is about, and it is a very inaccurate view of
19 our attitude toward this whole matter. Miss Lucas
20 was here to do advance work for the preparation of
21 these hearings. She’s not an EPA employee. She was
22 not speaking for the agency. At least three times in
23 this hearing, and in the hearing in California, we
24 have heard about her statement, So it’s been a severe
25 embarrassment to the agency. Let me just assure you,
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for what it’s worth, that what she expressed, and your
interpretation of it, is not representative of our
view at all, and I would hope for those who have been
here during the day, the hearing has demonstrated our
intent and our attitude.
With regard to the tampering, I think I
understood you to say that for us to ban tampering
could be bad, because -- or is sort of to decide that
tampering must always be bad, because tampering could
make it quieter, if I understood you correctly. I
think that we intended our rule to be written, only
tampering which makes the motorcycle noisier is, in
fact, tampering in the legal sense of the word.
Is that correct?
MR. WILSON: Okay. I may have misunderstood
you there. But my concern is that -- let me think how
I can put this -- that the tendency, while ostensibly
allowing modifications -- or I’ll just leave it
modification -- of the motorcycle actually is, in
effect, a prohibition against modifying it at all.
My reasoning behind this is as follows --
You don’t follow that?
MR. THOMAS: No, that’s incorrect.
MR. ELKINS: Well, let him explain it. Go
ahead.
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MR. WILSON: Okay. One, you cannot say, for
2 example, that after-market replacement mufflers may
not be substituted. Am I correct? For example, if I
had, let’s say, a Honda, I am not prohibited from
5 using another muffler from another company.
6 MR. ELKINS: That’s right.
7 MR. NAVEEN: As long as --
g MR. WILSON: As long as it meets current
9 noise regulations.
10 MR. THOMAS: That’s right.
ii MR. WILSON: Let me withdraw that. Let me
12 withdraw that, please. I realize how I want to say
13 this. I probably cannot bring out all the points, so
14 let me withdraw that point.
15 MR. ELKINS: As you think it over, if you
16 think you still have a point that we should have,
17 we’ll be glad to have it, and you can send it to us
18 in the mail.
19 MR. WILSON: All right. That’s fair enough.
20 - MR. ELKINS: On the pre-ernption -- you
21 didn’t use the word pre-emption, but you were talking
22 about the fact that 78 decibels may not necessarily be
23 rational for the whole country -- I think if I
24 understood your bottom-line conclusion, it was that
25 EPA shouLd not regulate manufacturers. I want to make
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1 sure you understood that if we do regulate the sound
2 level for new motorcycles, whether the number is 78,
3 80, 83 or whatever, that that, by law, does tell all
4 States that they cannot have a State standard which is
different from the EPA standard. So that just as 78
6 tnay not be the ideal for every community, neither may
7 83.
8 MR. WILSON: Correct.
9 MR. ELKINS: That’s right. And one of the
10 difficulties that we have is that if we promulgate a
11 standard that is too weak, call it, not stringent
12 enough, what we say to all citizens who are annoyed by
13 motorcycle noise and would like to have some remedy is
14 to go to their community leaders and say, “Do something
15 for us.” So there is no solution at the local level
16 in terms of a new motorcycle being quieter, because
17 your State cannot have any number different from EPA.
18 You are correct, however, in saying, well, if we make
19 it too stringent, local communities are stuck with
20 that, as well. They are stuck one way or the other in
21 terms of new products.
MR. WILSON: And that point worries me.
23 That very point worries me.
MR. NAVEEN: Maybe your fears are that the
25 community would then be left with nothing to do to
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1 control what problems might still linger after the new
2 motorcycles are - -
MR. WILSON: Not necessarily.
4 MR. NAVEEN: I guess my only point was going
5 to be that despite this pre-emption, which is what
6 we’re talking about, the State and local governments
7 still have the power to set use operational and
8 movement kinds of regulations, at their own level, in
9 their own jurisdictions, that aren’t numbers attached
10 to a newly-manufactured product, We’ve heard a lot
11 today about the State and local use problems, what
12 parts of town they’re used in, what hours, these kind
13 of things, which can still be regulated on the State
14 and local level. EPA is not getting into that end of
15 noise problem.
16 MR. WILSON: Okay. My point might be better
17 stated as if noise regulations of, let’s say, certain
18 DB levels were enacted, which is the most efficient
19 way to enact them? I’m convinced that nationally, by
20 the EPA enactment of noise regulations, is not as
21 efficient as an enactment of noise regulations on a
22 more local level. Reason? It is more - - it tends to
23 be more -- the local level tends to be more responsive
24 than the national. If there is a pressing local
25 concern, then a local community would be better able
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1 to act on it than a national organization. And if
2 regulations a e either too stringent or too lax, the
local laws are more easily changeable to more
4 reasonable laws than are national, especially
5 administered by the EPA, as I see it.
6 MR. THOMAS: You might be interested in
7 knowing -- I don’t think you were here earlier today
8 -- that so far we have not had a motorcycle
9 manufacturer agree with you. Every motorcycle
IC’ manufacturer has asked for Federal national single
11 uniform standards.
12 MR. WILSON: That may be true. That may be
13 true. But that does not necessarily invalidate my
14 point.
15 MR. THOMAS: I just wanted you to note that
16 the ruanufacturers do take issue with your point.
17 MR. WILSON: I’ll be glad to take on issue
18 with the tncrtufacturers.
19 MR. THOMAS: You might want to do that.
20 MR. WILSON: Yes, yes.
21 MR. ELKINS: Some of them are in the
22 audience, itd will be glad to talk to you. All right.
23 Are there other points to be raised?
24 MR. THOMAS: Yes. He had one question that
25 I am a little unclear on. You talked about the cost
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of warranty not being passed on in here.
2 MR. WILSON: Let me see if I can find that.
3 I just read that in one of the handouts before the
4 meeting.
5 MR. THOMAS: I think you read it in the law,
6 as opposed to what EPA dreamed up. This is something
7 that is in the Statute, the Federal Statute in here.
8 I would like to point out to you, by the way, that
g you are the first person in four years I’ve been
associated with this program that has raised that
ii point) and we will go back and look at the implication
12 of that Statute, that element of the Statute itself.
13 I just reread it myself right now.
14 MR. WILSON: Where is it then?
15 MR. THOMAS: It is in the law itself. It
16 has to do with Section 6 in. here. Any cost obligation
17 of any dealer incurred as a result of any requirement
18 imposed by Paragraph 1 of this Subsection shall be
borne by the manufacturer -- and now you might want to
20 follow this, though --
21 MR. WILSON: Okay.
22 MR. THOMAS: Because I think the next
23 sentence is the operative one -- the transfer of any
24 such cost obligation from a manufacturer to any dealer
25 through franchise or other agreement is prohibited.
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So what they’re doing here -- and I’ve got
to go back and think about it a little bit more --
when this part of it was structured by the Congress in
here - - what I think they are trying to remove in here
is an interlocking relationship between - - a
vertically integrated operation between a manufacturer
and a totally franchised dealer.
MR. WILSON: Okay.
MR. THOMAS: I think that that is what is
intended. But I just wanted you to know that
regardless of your other comments, and how we respond
to those, you have caused us right here to go back arid
study this part of the law again.
MR. WILSON: Okay.
MR. ELKINS: We appreciate your thoughtful
presentation. You have looked at this in some depth,
and we appreciate that. Do you have any other comments
MR. EDWARDS: Motorcycle weight is something
that definitely we did look at with care in the
development of these regulations. And although liquid
cooling is a possibility for achievement of the
78-decibel standard, EPA in no sense is predicting
that all motorcycles, or indeed that any motorcycle
necessarily will require liquid cooling.
MR. WILSON: Okay. I can understand that.
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1 Nonetheless, the pressure would he there. Well, that
2 might be too strong, also. My original thought in
3 this was that, of necessity, motorcycles will not
4 necessarily be as quiet as automobiles, for the reason
5 that automobiles have enclosed engines, mostly
6 water-cooled, and the whole bit. Water-cooling does,
7 in fact, reduce quite a lot of the transient
8 vibrations. But there is the weight penalty. It
9 would seem to me, therefore, that an allowance,
10 whatever the final standards be, an allowance of DB
11 or some fraction thereof, or maybe a little more might
12 be allowable for chain-driven motorcycles or air-coolec
13 motorcycles, simply because the engines are out
14 the open.
15 It is not necessarily true that a smaller
16 engine is a quieter engine, when you take into account
17 how it is packaged, and to push for tremendous
18 reductions in noise without looking at the consequent
19 problems is irrational. I’m sure the EPA has looked
20 at them. I am saying maybe not enough.
21 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you. You have been a
22 very observant commentator.
23 MR. WILSON: Well, I hope I have been
24 understood in my various points, because I had
something I was hoping to write, but I’ve had to rely
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1 on notes made out in the hail. So I hope you
understood, and I thank you very much.
3 MR. ELKINS: Yes, we do thank you.
4 Mrs. Adeline Billborg.
5 MRS. BILLBORG: Well, this is a surprise to
6 me to be up here, speaking, because I thought it was
7 just a little Country meeting. But it seems very
8 impressive. My compliments to the lawyers, and to the
9 engineers who are working out the problems of noise.
io For three and a half years, I fumed about
11 noise. And here this week I read an article, Everyday
12 Noise You May Not Even Notice Actually Causes
13 Permanent Hearing Loss, Warns Professor Paul Michael,
14 Professor of Environmental Acoustics at Pennsylvania
15 State University. He says that noises in the street,
16 in your home or anything could cause this permanent
17 damage. Well, my hearing hasn’t diminished. I’m very
18 keen on motorcycle noises, in fact. My friends have
19 heard me complain about the motorcycle noise. Where
20 do you go to live to escape this?
21 When I came down here four years ago, I
selected a nice happy apartment, a half block away
from an intersection, and it isn’t until you live in
24 it that you realize what the drawbacks can be. Where
25 do you invest money, twenty-five, thirty thousand
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1 dollars, to live permanently? And you won’t know
2 those things until you actually experience your life
3 in there. And when I came down, I was a very tolerant
4 person, kind of a live-and-let-live kind of person.
5 I would hold the apartment doors open, or wouldn’t
6 disturb anybody from, you know, I wouldn’t even flush
7 the toilet at night, if I thought it would bother the
8 people downstairs. I was that considerate.
9 But there’s that noise on that corner, every
10 time I open my window, or I have my television on,
11 listening to a program, or I’m napping, Vroom, Vroom,
12 and you know, it’s like that Drip Drip Drip, it
13 finally got to me. Somewhere along the way, I began
14 to change, and I became less tolerant. And those
15 noises still stuck out like a sore thumb. I would
16 stop what I was doing. People talking to me knew I
17 wasn’t listening. I was listening for that noise
18 which caused my attention every time.
19 But then, wheü it distrubs my sleep at night,
20 there were probably people coming back and forth,
21 Vroom, at the corner again. I took my sleep when I
22 could. And then not only that, but how far back do
23 you begin to hear that noise? A mile. Is it further?
24 don’t know. The engineers will tell you. It comes
25 up to a crescendo, ‘/room, and then it fades out.
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1 So we become more tolerant of other noises.
2 Now, I hear the sirens, which I dismiss,
3 because I think that they are the helpful kind. But
4 when it is with the people who ride the motorcycles,
5 there are some who are probably considerate, but think
6 of the ones that go Vroom, Vroorn, Vroom, Vroorn. And
7 then, off they go. I don’t know. I had some notes
8 here. But the young man, of course, I liked his
9 technical aspect of it, which I didn’t consider but I
10 would be listening with this in mind, that you have
11 your problem. But we also have this problem.
12 When this apartment was available to me, to
13 buy, I went in there because it was convenient for me
14 to walk to the store or to take a bus if I needed to.
15 But for that noise tolerance, I couldn’t. Now, I read
16 in the brochure all these things about disturbing of
17 sleep and making us old people nervous and what-not,
18 but the one thing that it didn’t mention that used to
19 get my goat was when 1 couldn’t hear the punch-lines
of my television program.
21 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much. That is
22 the kind of personal experience that is helpful to
23 those of us who work in offices and have to write
24 these rules, realizing what it is really like.
25 Mr. Wozniak.
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MR. WOZNIAK: This is the first time that I
have ever been sitting like this in front of a speaker
in my life. I have no notes. I just read the article
in today’s paper that I could shoot off my mouth here,
and here I am. The first thing -- I don’t know -- it
6 seems that they’re on one subject, motorcycles. It
7 seems wrong that tomorrow they’ll go out and make it
s automobiles, and the next day they’ll probably make it
9 trucks. Why couldn’t they have combined the three
10 subjects together? This is public spending, what is
11 called a waste, in my book.
12 The thing about noise, it isn’t motorcycles,
13 it isn’t cars, it isn’t trucks, it’s mufflers. As
14 soon as these people would understand that a muffler
15 is the most noisiest thing put on any vehicle. You
16 can fix them where they’re controlled to make less
17 noise, and you can fix them to make plenty of noise,
18 and I can’t understand, why can’t they just go down
19 to this one subject, mufflers. Mufflers come from the
20 factory. They’re put on cars. They’re quiet as could
21 be. So what happens? A person buys a car, motorcycle
22 or truck, and one of the first things he does,
23 especially with a motorcycle, he takes the baffles out,
24 and this evidently makes a lot of noise, and I hear it
25 on my Street.
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I I And this is what gets me. They talk about
2 decibels, certain percentage numbers and figures. I
can’t understand them, myself. The only thing I could
see is that the manufacturer comes up with a muffler
on your motorcycle, your car, your truck, or whatever
6 vehicle you might have. Why can’t it stay that way?
A law should be made to say, look, this is the muffler
8 that came on that vehicle. This is the way it should
be. No person or anybody has a right to modify it as
10 long as that vehicle is a licensed vehicle, and it is
11 used on the streets. He can use any kind of motorcycl€
12 car, modify it, do anything he wants, on a racetrack,
13 on a specified ground that somebody might provide for
14 them. But not to take them on the streets.
15 I’ll give you an example. I was in Treasure
16 Island one day. I have nothing against motorcycles.
17 I drive them myself. My nephew’s got them. My
18 brother’s got them. I enjoy them. We have a farm up
19 North. We raise hell around the farm, driving those
29 motorcycles. But no noise. They just got what they
21 were designed with, the muffler, and that’s how it
goes.
23 But I was riding on Treasure Island one day,
24 with my pickup truck, and I have a crowbar this long
25 in my truck, and it’s that thick. And this kid -- we
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1 stopped for one light, and this kid pulls alongside of
2 me,’ Vroorn, Vroom, Vroorn. Okay. I let it go at that.
3 I went to the next light. He pulls right alongside of
me again. I took that crowbar and I went and put it
5 in his spokes like this, and I said, “You SOB, now
6 move.” He stood there, frightened. I’m telling you,
7 I was ready to kill the person. I’m telling you,
8 that’s how mad I got. And I said, “If you pass me,
9 I’ll run you down.” I never run him down, because he
never passed me. I took that crowbar and I shoved it
ii right in between his spokes of his motorcycle. I said,
12 “If you had a decent muffler on that thing, you didn’t
13 modify it, I wouldn’t object to that one bit.”
14 But like I say, we shouldn’t be picking on
15 the motorcycles. We should get back to the muffler.
16 That is the subject. I don’t care what the EPA wants
17 to go at, the muffler is the subject, not motorcycles,
18 trucks or cars. I cannot see it. Get back to the
19 muffler, where we can have one quiet muffler,
20 controlled by the officials of the United States, that
21 will cover the whole 52 States or 51 States or
22 whatever you want, 48 States, here, so a person can
23 take a motorcycle from New York, he can come down to
24 Florida, he can go to Washington or any other State,
25 and they’re the same category for him, as well as for
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me here in my own town.
2 And I would prefer to have any one of you
fellows here -- I’ll wine you and dine you tonight,
4 instead of this big hotel here, where it’s going to be
5 quiet -- to come to my street. I got two beautiful
6 beds in one room, and I got an apartment in the other
7 room, and I’ll let you listen just to one night’s
8 noise. You can record the noise. You can have your
9 speakers record the noise. Just come in my apartment
10 and listen to that noise just for one night. I’ll
11 wine you and dine you. And believe me, we’d have a
12 very good time. But you wouldn’t sleep.
13 That’s it. That’s all I can tell you. I
14 really can’t tell you any more. But like I say, on
15 this thing, control the mufflers. Forget the
16 motorcycles, forget the cars. Control it just with
17 the mufflers. The noise of the mufflers. Don’t spend
18 a lot of money from the taxpayers on all kinds of
19 literature here. I have read this literature. I
20 don’t even know what the hell it’s all about. But
21 believe me, this is where it should start.
22 It’s like I always say to my wife, she says,
23 “Oh, they can’t control the children today.” I’m from
24 a family of ten children. That cat-o’-rtine-tails
25 controlled us, and controlled us well. Believe me,
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1 if we had that today, there would be no crime in this
2 cock-eyed world, believe me. And my dad, he used to
use it occasionally. Boy, you felt it, you felt it
for a week. And he would say, no noise over here, no
noise over there, 10:00 o’clock, you heard the whistle,
6 and off we came. That’s it. That’s all I can tell yo
7 Like I say, it should go down to one subject,
8 and that’s mufflers. Forget the motorcycles. Don’t
9 pick on the motorcycle. I love motorcycles. I picked
10 a guy up on Starkey Road over here, bloody from head
to foot. He went right through the windshield of a
12 car. And I picked him up, and believe me, and after I
13 got all done, the ambulance came and picked him up.
I fainted. That was only two years ago. I have no
15 objection to motorcycles. I love the things. I like
16 tO ride them. But don’t wake me up at 2:00 o’clock in
17 the morning with a Vroorn. I can hear them coming two
18 miles away 0 And then he gets to my house, like the
19 lady says, and just explodes, and then it just carries
20 on.
21 But I don’t hear some of the cars. And then
22 again, I see beautiful motorcycles come by there. I
23 look at them and didn’t even hear the thing. And what
24 gets me is the smallest ones make the loudest noise.
25 The same with your car, There’s a car comes down to my
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i section, he’s got Pennsylvania plates, and I’m telling
2 you, Vrn ready to go after him. I’m really ready to
go after him. I don’t know what kind of car he’s got,
but that muffler, it’s unbelievable.
5 Like I say, I’d be glad to have anyone of
6 you come to my house, and believe me, I got the booze,
7 and I got the wine. Take you anywhere you want, and
8 God bless you. And let me see you sleep tonight.
9 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Well, thank you very
10 much.
11 Mr. Thomas.
12 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Wozniak, I just want you to
13 know, before you go, I think you made a very eloquent
14 presentation indeed, for not having prepared it, and
15 I’m going to take a copy of what you said from the
16 Court Reporter, when I get it back, and I’m going to
17 send that to my father-in-law in Steubenville, Ohio,
18 because I got that very same lecture from him about
six months ago, and I think when he reads what you’ve
20 said, he’s going to say, “I told you so.”
21 MR. WOZNIAK: Probably from the old school.
MR. ThOMAS: He did have more enforcement
23 authority in many respects, I think, than the Federal
24 Government has, in some of the aspects you suggested,
25 though.
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i MR. WOZNIAK: My father, he came from Warsaw,
2 Poland. And believe me, he respected everybody. We
3 didn’t make any kind of noise. We had horses, ‘we had
cows, we had chickens, we had every dog-gone thing.
But no noise. Boy, that 10:00 o’clock, I could hear
6 him whistle. And boy, we run. It was the end of us.
7 No noise.
8 MR. THOMAS: Thank you very much.
9 MR. ELKINS: Mr. Paul DiAngelis.
10 MR. DiANGELIS: Good evening.
11 MR. ELKINS: How do you do?
12 MR. DiANGELIS: Okay. Bikers, non-bikers,
13 I didn’t come prepared with any notes, or anything.
14 I just want to agree with Mr. Wozniak. And like he
15 says, it comes down to the muffler. I’m a bike-lover.
16 Been a bike-lover since probably I was riding bicycles.
17 But why is it they can build a 1,000 cc motorcycle,
18 you can’t even hear it? And they build a little 90-cc,
19 motocross, and I can hear it four blocks away, and
20 I’m ready to knock them right off the bike as soon as
21 he comes past me.
22 Now, you know, there’s a lot of beautiful
23 bikes. }larley-Davidsons, there’s your Honda, your
24 BMW’s, and they don’t make, you know, so much noise
25 that they keep you up at night. But you get these
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1 kids on these little nothing bikes, and they make,
2 you know, so much noise it is unbelievable. Like the
3 lady says, you can’t hear the TV, you can’t hear
4 somebody talking, and it’s ridiculous. I mean, if you
5 have your windows open in the house, you can’t hear
6 the person next to you talking. It gets a bit loud,
7 as far as I’m concerned. You know, if the stereo were
8 up that loud, then that’s still too loud, too.
9 But like I say, I agree with Mr. Wozniak.
10 It’s right down to the mufflers. And there’s plenty
11 of air-cooled bikes on the road, they’re quiet, BMW’s
12 and your Honda Goldens, and so on, and they’re awfully
13 quiet, and nice-riding bikes, and there’s no reason
14 for all that noise. I feel mainly, your off-road
15 bikes is what I beef about. You know, in residential
16 areas, if they have to have all that noise, go out
17 where nobody has to hear it, as far as I’m concerned.
18 But like so many things, just like
19 motocross, whatever, you know, they don’t have any
20 mufflers, they don’t have any baffles, nothing in them
21 don’t believe, just a straight pipe or something,
and I guess that’s about all I have to say.
23 MR. ELKINS: Would you be in favor of a
24 Federal rule that would essentially control the sound
25 level coming from mufflers, then, that you could not
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sell and manufacture and sell a muffler in this
2 country unless it was a certain decibel level?
3 MR. DiANGELIS: Yes, definitely. And I
4 agree that it should be in every one of the States of
5 the Union. Like I’m from up North, Chicago, so fine,
6 if 1 ride my motorcycle across-country, nobody’s
7 going to hassle me, saying it’s too loud, you know,
8 from State to State. And they do that for, you know,
9 like the helmet, you can just ride across the State
10 with a helmet on your knee all your life, right? But
11 you know, I believe the muffler law should be Federal
12 law, in effect across the whole United States, as far
13 as I’m concerned. And if they have to get a
14 replacement muffler, especially on older bikes, they
15 don’t have these mufflers, I believe it should be that
16 they have to have a muffler, and if it’s not from a
17 manufacturer or whatever, but if it meets certain EPA
18 estimates, you know, sound decibels, whatever, that’s
19 what it should be.
20 MR. ELKINS: Very good.
21 MR. DiANGELIS: Thank you very much.
22 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate
23 your coming.
24 Leonard Blake.
25 MR. BLAKE: Good evening, gentlemen.
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1 1 MR. ELKINS: How are you?
2 MR. BLAKE: Fine. Well, my complaint is
3 the same as everybody else’s. Too much noise. You
4 can hear it t o miles away, and it goes up. But the
5 thing is, it seems like when they know you don’t like
6 the noise, they go right around and come back, and
7 there’s nothing you can do. You can call the police,
8 and by the time they get there, they’re gone.
9 And the other complaint is the off-road
10 bikes. They find a vacant lot, and they go in circles
11 for hours at a time, till the neighbor women come out,
12 they come outside crying. And you call the police,
13 and they can’t do a thing, because they’re off the
14 street. And the other big worry I have is that you
15 are going to set the decibel noise too high.
16 MR. ELKINS: Not stringent enough, you mean?
17 MR. BLAKE: That’s right. Because once it’s
set, you’ll never get it down again. And there’s no
19 reason why any of them can’t be quiet. If I can drive
20 an 8-cylinder car and not make any noise, I don’t know
21 why a 1-cylinder or 2-cylinder motorcycle should sound
22 like a bus coming down the street. And that’s about
23 all I have to say.
24 MR. ELKINS: Okay. We appreciate those
25 comments.
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1 MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Blake, have you heard of
2 the GL-l000 motorcycle?
3 MR. BLAKE: Pardon?
4 MR. EDWARDS: Have you heard of the GL-l000
5 motorcycle? Do you know what kind of motorcycle I’m
6 talking about?
7 MR. BLAKE: No, I don’t know that much. All
8 I know is the ones that go by, some go by, you can’t
hear.
10 MR. EDWARDS: Let me ask the question
11 differently. Are there some motorcycles, some big
12 motorcycles on the streets now that you think are
quiet enough?
14 MR. BLAKE: Yes. Some you can’t hear.
15 MR. EDWARDS: Okay. Because EPA standards
16 are right down there with absolutely the quietest
17 motorcycles that are on the Street right now. So
18 perhaps that takes care of some of your fears that EPA
19 has not been going far enough.
20 Thank you very much.
21 MR. ELKINS: For those people from the
22 audience who would like to have a question asked,
23 there are cards that you can write your question on,
24 and someone here will pick it up and be glad to answer
25 it, if you want to ask a question, we’ll be glad to
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1 answer it for you.
2 MR. BLAKE: He just answered it for me.
3 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Good. All right. Any
4 other questions? Thank you very much.
5 MR. BLAKE: Thank you.
6 MR. ELKINS: Let’s see. Mr. Brookman.
7 MR. BROOKMAN: Gentlemen, I have been home
8 relaxing, watching Washington Week in Review, and
9 Wall Street, all of that. Don’t expect any witicisms
10 from rue. You may note a note of trepidation in my
11 voice. Prior to coming up here, I went outside and
12 asked the lady out there, where her security was.
13 She says, “He just went up in the elevator.” So I
14 hesitate to say anything, because I just bought two
15 new tires. I don’t want them slashed. And so I am
16 not pointing a finger at anybody, but if the shoe fits,
17 I’m sure you gentlemen understand me. And I’m
surprised that you haven’t more precautions, knowing
19 this is a heated issue, at least you should.
20 I live across the road here. This is level
21 land. Now, I used to race a cycle myself. I totaled
22 out. But I love cycles. I’m for cycles. But I work
23 hard, and come home and try to get a little nap or
24 something. I don’t want -- I won’t call it a biker,
25 because I respect bikers, they love their cycles, and
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i you don’t bother them, they won’t bother you. But
2 it’s some wild kids, not bikers, these are wild kids,
and they go out in these fields.
4 Now, Florida Federal just used to be the
5 First Federal of St. Pete, owned land there on 54th
6 and 34th Streets, and these wild kids went over there,
and I don’t know what they did with their mufflers or
8 baffles or whatever, and everybody at Naximo-Noorings
was up in arms. They called the cops, they called the
10 bank. No one could do a thing. I took it for awhile.
Then I gave up and looked for some cotton batting to
12 put in my ears. My wife got a little bit nervous with
13 me, so we got in the car and went somewhere else.
14 The lady over there in the apartment, my
15 heart goes out to her. I know what she went through.
16 She didn’t come down here to get aggravated or to get
17 high blood pressure or anything like that. But she
18 got it. And just to digress a moment, don’t blame
19 cycles, don’t blame the bike and all that. I think
‘20 some of you gentlemen should open your eyes to the
21 fact that our buses, our City buses are the biggest
22 polluters there are. You take a biker, put him behind
23 a bus, and he’s going to get asphyxiated. I think you
24 people owe them some protection. I really mean that.
25 You bikers need some protection from the City buses we
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i got here. Let me tell you something.
2 I have an office downtown, and across ti e
street there’s a big park. And buses used to pull in
4 with the driver’s window open, with the engine running
5 polluting the entire Street. The old ladies walking
6 by had handkerchieves. A group of us went up to City
7 Hall. Nothing. We called up a reporter from the
S St. Pete Times. Finally, she came down and wrote an
9 article about the pollution. I went to City Hall. I
10 am usually a quiet man. I said, “Look, I’m going to
11 take an ad in all the Northern papers, telling the
12 tourists, Welcome to Black Lung Country, St. Petersbur
13 We’ll pollute your lungs gladly.” I said, “Now, if
14 you want that, let them run their engines, waste the
15 fuel, build up the budget. Or if you just want to
16 tell them to turn the engine off when they’re resting,
17 or if they got there early and so forth, fine.
18 But the height of dereliction, I feel, that
19 someone is either afraid of General Motors, or you
20 pick on the small biker, the small motorcycle
21 manufacturers. Get after GM and their buses. I’m
22 not a politician, and I’m not an attorney. I’m in the
23 health field. So I can’t tell you how to go about it.
24 Maybe your hands are tied. Maybe you have to do one
25 thing at a time. But this is the beginning. God
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1 speed to you on this.
2 Now, like I said, the bikers don’t bother
3 anybody. They got their clubs, they got their areas,
and they follow the leader. Once we went to Hartford,
5 Connecticut, went over the same bridge three times at
6 night. The leader didn’t know where he was going.
7 Same bridge, three times at night. So Irve been down
8 that road. Mom said, “Go to college,” so I kind of
9 left that road, became part of the establishment, I
10 suppose you might say. But for heaven sake, get
11 something started.
12 But this other chap here that gave a
13 magnificent whole thesis here about technical facets,
14 with all the money you have spent on studies and
15 everything else, use that information. But don’t hurt
16 recreational bikes, don’t hurt racing bikes. Now, the
17 only way you can stop that is to go to the
18 manufacturer, like you have done with the automobile
19 people, I guess. Now, people say, well, manufacturers
20 will be hurt and cost a lot of money, all that, bikes
21 go up. Bikes won’t go up. If they do go up, so what?
22 Fords have gone up. People still like Fords. They
23 still buy them. That is no criterion.
24 And if I seem to be going around in circles,
25 and trying to set the boys straight that I’m not
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against them, I’m one of them, in a sense. But I’m
2 against the Federal people over here, that they don’t
get after the real problem, the polluters.
4 Mr. Wozniak was mad about mufflers. I see that is
5 taken care of in your things here. Well, you can
6 always close the windows and take a couple of aspirin,
7 if you can’t stand the noise, and if you can’t stand
8 the noise you can go up to Seminole somewhere. But I
9 don’t mean to offend anybody.
10 What I am trying to say is, I wish you chaps
ii would get after the buses. Oh, by the way, the City
12 of St. Pete now, their buses do not run while they’re
13 parked. Every time a group of us goes into City Hall,
14 everybody seems to get busy and looks at some papers
15 or something like that. So we don’t have to say a
16 word. Start checking, what’s wrong?
17 Put on your hearing - - and I was never so
18 delighted to read about it or hear about it -- I only
19 saw this about an hour ago -- my wife’s got ray glasses
20 so I don’t read too well -- please try to see in your
21 law that cycle clubs and races and all that are not
22 what you might call handcuffed. This is their
23 pleasure. This is their life. This is how they get
24 their kicks. We’ve all got our things, you know.
25 But if you have a Federal power and
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authority to affect the lower decibels, then I don’t
2 think there is any argument in the world, technically
or otherwise, that can stop you from going ahead and
4 doing something like this. Not only are the people
dependent on you, they are praying for you. But while
6 you are doing what the people need, don’t let others
7 get hurt that have their way of life as well.
8 And if there is some way you can word your
9 law or something to eliminate races, uphill races,
10 cross-country races, clubs, that are traveling on the
ii road, they only go by that corner once. They are on
12 their way somewhere else. So they’re not an
13 environmental hazard. What about your big trucks,
14 with the diesel spewing all over the place?
15 Carcenogens. Bad word. Why don’t you people do
16 something about that, instead of worrying about a
17 paltry decibel or something like that?
18 You have got the word environmental in your
19 Committee. Why don’t you go to the literal of that,
20 environmental? Because if you just go pick pick pick
21 on a cycle, or on this or on that, you’re going to
22 meet resistance. So to sum it up, I’m a homeowner,
23 and I have been annoyed by these wild kids going over
24 the fields. I have not been annoyed by cycle clubs
25 going on the highway. I have not been annoyed by the
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1 mopeds.
2 But the only way to stop the wild kids -
and I’m talking about fourteen-year-olds, believe it
or not -- so to effect your legislation that you have
5 spent thousands of dollars for, to study, I’m sure it
6 was gathered by impartial technologists, and you have
7 our prayers, and I say that sincerely from the crowd
8 at Maximo-Noorings, right across the street there.
9 Been there eighteen years. This used to be a beautiful
io quiet area. Oh, was it beautiful. As a matter of
ii fact, when they were putting up the sewer across the
12 street there, hidden with punk trees, we didn’t know
13 it was there.
14 The wild kids were pouncing up and down
15 there, and the cops just had to come with their
16 cruisers and chase them, and they’d leave, and back
17 they’d come. I was a kid once. Like I told you, I
18 used to race cycles and all that. But I’m older now,
19 nerves a little bit worn, and there has to be laws for
20 some things. But in conclusion, I certainly hope that
21 you do something about these buses.
22 MR. ELKINS: Okay. We appreciate that point,
23 Mr. Brookman. And we appreciate your coming here.
24 MR. BROOKMAN: Thank you.
25 MR. ELKINS: And making this presentation to
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1 The next speaker will be Leslie Fosnow.
2 How are you, sir?
3 I MR. FOSNOW: Just fine.
4 I have listened to several of the speakers
here tonight. I think several points, very good
6 points, were brought out. And basically, we’re
7 talking about mufflers attenuating the decibel level
8 of said vehicles, whether it be a truck, bus,
9 motorcycle or whatever it is. I don’t believe that
10 there is any manufacturer in the United States, Europe
i or Japan or whatever, that does not put out a
12 motorcycle from the factory that will meet the DB
13 rating as specified by Government regulations. Howevei
14 that is not the point.
15 You can put on regulations to manufacturers
16 as long as you want to. They will continue to produce
17 motorcycles, automobiles, trucks, what-have-you, that
18 will meet this regulation. However, the local
19 government of the States, the City, the local
20 ordinance. Yet, we will send these eventually through
21 ‘the inspection station year after year, with straight
22 pipes, various devices. They have modified these
23 vehicles to where they are no longer meeting the
24 standards put Out by the Federal regulations or the
25 environmental regulations. Nobody does anything about
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1 it.
2 I can hear vehicles in my apartment or in
3 my house, for Sixteen blocks. Yet this vehicle has a
4 present sticker on it. You can pass regulations all
5 day long to the manufacturer, and it does nothing when
6 they modify that vehicle, once it gets in the hands of
7 the new owner. Therefore, the regulations governing
8 the vehicle should be passed down to the State, City,
9 County or wherever they make these inspections. It
10 should be enforced by the police department.
11 I was up on 49th Street the other day. A
12 motorcycle come by. I thought it was a freight train
13 at first. It went past me, and one of our City police,
14 St. Petersburg, went past both of us. The policeman
15 never pulled him over. The motorcycle went on his way.
16 I’ve seen many instances of the same thing with a
17 high-powered automobile, with two straight pipes which
18 sound like ten motorcycles, go right by the City
19 police, that would literally rock his windshield, and
20 nothing was ever done. So if you pass all your
21 Federal laws you want to, to make the manufacturers
22 make a vehicle that meets your standards, and it’s
23 not upheld by the City and local government, then your
24 law is worthless.
That’s all I have to say.
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1 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much.
2 Jeanne Nicks.
3 MISS NICKS: Am I allowed to ask you all a
4 question?
5 MR. ELKINS: Yes.
6 MISS NICKS: Or do I have to just make a
7 statement?
g MR. ELKINS: No, we’d like to know what you
9 think, certainly.
10 MISS NICKS: I’d like to ask some questions.
11. MR. ELKINS: Sure, go ahead.
12 MISS NICKS: Is the purpose of this hearing
13 and the purpose of the EPA actions to get rid of
14 motorcycles off the streets? Because our organization
15 sort of feels that this is what the EPA has in mind.
16 MR. ELKINS: Certainly, that is not. Let me
17 tell you what we have in mind, and see whether you
18 have any disagreement. What we have proposed is that
19 over a period of years, that new motorcycles be made
20 quieter by the manufacturers. At the present time,
21 there is at least one motorcycle. These regulations
can be more stringent or less stringent. And in our
23 discussions with the manufacturers, we are led to
24 believe that given enough time, which we believe we
25 have allowed in this regulation, that the other
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manufacturers will be able to produce motorcycles
2 which will also meet he same level.
3 We are also proposing a rule which would
4 require that manufacturers of exhaust systems produce
5 systems which will be capable of helping those
6 motorcycles meet the Federal standard at the same time.
7 And this, of course, is possible, as well, although
s certainly some companies will have difficulty without
9 redesign. The actual enforcement of the rule will
10 have to be done by State and local people, except for
11 enforcement against the manufacturer. EPA will do
12 that. But in terms of controlling motorcycle use at
13 the local level, that will be a matter of State and
14 local authority, if they wish to do so.
15 MISS NIC1 S: Are you a member of the EPA?
16 MR. ELKINS: Yes. I an Head of the Noise
17 Control Program at EPA.
18 MISS NICKS: As far as you k iow, the people
19 who run the EPA are n t really trying to get rid of
20 motorcycles?
21 MR. ELKINS: Absolutely not.
22 MISS NICKS: You honestly can say that?
23 MR. ELKINS: I have a colleagu2 who has a
24 motorcycle.
25 MISS NICKS: You are a motorcyclist?
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MR. THOMAS: Yes. That is not the point:.
2 And I think Mr. Elkins has indicated to you, you know,
we’re not out to get motorcycles. In. fact, if you
would have listened to -- which you couldn’t have done,
5 because you weren’t in Anaheim this week -- but the
6 motorcycle manufacturers, Harley-Davidson, that spoke
7 there -- let’s see -- we had Suzuki speak there, and
8 Kawasaki, those three -- we’ll hear in Washington from
9 Honda and Yamaha -- but they’re all in favor of EPA,
10 Federal EPA regulations on the manufacturers.
11 The reason is that if the levels that are
12 in the statutes for California and Florida go into
13 effect, we at EPA don’t know how you build a
14 motorcycle today that could meet those State levels.
15 And because California and Florida are such major
16 markets for motorcycles, they can, in effect, set the
17 standard for the manufacturers.
18 MISS NICKS: They are less than 78?
19 MR. THOMAS: Oh, yes. Oh, dramatically SO.
20 MISS NICKS: Already, we have this?
21 MR. THOMAS: No. They’re due to come into
22 effect in the future, some years down.
MISS NICKS: Because I have a friend who is
24 very knowledgeable in motorcycles, and he says with a
25 car, you can shroud, you know, and keep your engine
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i noise and stuff down, but with motorcycles you just
2 simply can’t get much below 78. And he’s afraid that
3 they’re going to try to go more and more, you know,
to get it down to 78, and then want it to 76, and
5 pretty soon you won’t have any motorcycles.
6 MR. THOMAS: Ma’am, this is the point that
7 I’m trying to make, is that these laws have already
g been passed in California and Florida. Now, they
9 haven’t -- the capacity to meet those levels is not
10 yet here, and the manufacturers of motorcycles, each
ii of them who have testified before us have been uniform
12 in saying that they would prefer, as it were, to have
13 a single Federal level to have to deal with, rather
14 than have to manufacture to meet what California says
15 and what Florida says, back over here.
16 MISS NICKS; Right.
17 MR. THOMAS: Now, what that level should be
18 is obviously a matter of debate. But what does not
19 seem to be a matter of debate for the manufacturers is
20 that there ought to be one single national level,
21 against which they have to design and manufacture to.
22 EPA has the authority to do that. Once we set that
23 level for the manufacturers, then no State can have a
24 different level than the Federal standard for the new
25 manufacturing element. Perhaps that explains that to
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1 YOU .
MISS NICKS: Yes, I understand that. Well,
this is what I was interested in. Thank you.
4 MR. ELKINS: Thank you very much for corning.
5 The Pharaoh.
6 THE PHARAOH: Good evening, gentlemen. How
7 you doing this evening?
$ MR. ELKINS: Fine.
9 THE PHARAOH: That’s good. I’ve just got a
10 couple of very brief comments to make, you know, just
11 where I and a whole bunch of people, a bunch of
12 voting-age people, you know, in this entire community,
13 probably believe that I can speak for an awful lot of
14 them, even though they aren’t here. I’m a business
15 man in the community, and I’m sitting ba’ k there, you
16 know, and we’ve been hearing all this stuff on the
17 radio, you know, about people going around nitpicking,
18 you know, about things like noise pollution, you know,
19 and itemizing motorcycles in particular, you know. - --
20 And I’ve heard some other peoplt up here
21 speaking about, you know, talking about buses or
‘22 trucks or a bunch of other things like chat, you know,
23 particularly the little mini-bike, you know, that are
24 out there in the fields, you know, really making life
25 miserable for everybody, and myself included you know,
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i because we got a big field, you know, by our business,
2 you know, out there, and you know, giving you hell,
3 you know.
4 But what my concern is, as I think it was
5 with the very young lady that was just up here, is
6 that, you know, we got helmet laws, we got, you know,
7 like headlight laws, you know, you got all kinds of
8 laws regulating motorcycles, you know. And I think
9 it’s just the same thing as, you know, they say
10 history repeats itself, you know, Adolf Hitler did the
ii same thing, you know, he went up there and took a
12 little bit, and nobody said nothing. He went up there,
13 and took a little bit more, nobody said nothing, you
14 know. Fine. He took Poland. Then where were we, you
15 know?
16 Now, I don’t know who these people are that
17 are going around and taking all of these legislations.
18 mean, maybe that’s their job, you know. I don’t
19 know. Maybe that’s just their job, to go around
20 thinking of new laws to make up. To me, you know,
21 most everybody I know, you know, is a person, you know,
22 everybody. And I think that it’s not so much an issue
of, you know, just motorcycle noise, pollution, which
24 is a major concern of mine, but there is a greater
25 issue, you know, involved, and that which is, you know
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what is all going to happen, man, you know. Are they
going to start having crash bumpers on motorcycles,
3 you know? Seat belts and encased, you know, riding
4 compartments, everything like that? That’s next on
the list, you know.
6 Seriously, I’m concerned, you know. And I
7 just don’t think it’s right, man. I think the people
who are going out and trying to make these laws, man,
g they ought to go out and find themselves another
10 business, you know, or they ought to go do something
ii else, like go pick up the rapists, you know, go chase
12 Commies, man, you go do something else, man, what the
13 hell bother motorcycles for, you know.
14 Now, I heartily concur with you, believe me,
15 in the little bikes. Now, about other pollutions,
16 these police helicopters at night, you know, wake you
17 out of a sound sleep, man, put that spotlight in your
18 window and everything. Am I wrong? I mean, it’s
19 ridiculous. Why don’t you guys -- I don’t know whether
20 it’s you -- I just think they shouldn’t ought to be
21 doing what they’re doing. It’s stupid. That’s all
22 there is to it. That’s all I got to say.
23 MR. ELKINS: Okay. Thank you very much.
24 We appreciate those comments.
Mr. Causy.
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1 MR. CAUSY: There’s only a couple of points
I’d like to make. Everybody bad-mouths Harley riders.
Well, they buy an American product. They get 50
4 miles to the gallon. They don’t drive a damn Ford or
5 Toyota or, you know, all these Gasukis. Man, they
6 pump more oil, you know. So I think they’re knocking
7 American citizens, because we’re Americans. That’s
8 all I got to say.
9 MR. ELKINS: All right. Thank you.
10 We have dealt with the Harley-Davidson
11 manufacturers in some depth during this rule-making,
12 and it is my hope, and I think my expectation that
13 Harley-Davidsons ;ill not be -- well, the Harley-
14 Davidson jill do well under this regulation. Okay.
15 Okay. I think we’ve heard all the people
16 who have submitted cards. Is there anyone else who’d
17 like to speak? All right. Why don’t you come up.
18 MR. RICHARDS: My name is Norm Richards.
19 But all of this coming about is because, you know,
20 like St. Petersburg is known as the living dead, you
121 know. No offense, man. It is, man. And you know,
22 most people who ride scooters are young, right? You
know, they done cut down the boat races down there at
24 Lake Maggiore, to one race a year, that’s the fast
25 course on it, you know, on their circuit. But the old
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people, man, they turned it down. They says, no, we
2 can’t handle that fucker, you know. Excuse me. Can’t
handle that noise, you know.
4 I’d just like to know, is all these old
5 people around here, you know, bringing this all out?
6 Because like they already said, they got on a helmet
7 law, and you can take your scooter and ride out in the
8 boonies, twenty miles, without a helmet on, and nobody
9 cares. You come in town, you know, they’re going to
10 get you. That’s all I’d like to know, you know,
11 because that’s where it’s at, you know, because the
12 only people going to be riding scooters, mostly, you
13 know, there’s a lot of old-timers out there, like to
14 see them out there, you know. But you know, there’s
15 so much loud things on the road, why burn the scooters,
‘16 you know, why burn them, you know? You can’t. That’s
17 all.
18 MR. ELKINS: I appreciate your comments.
MR. RICHARDS: You know.
MR. ELKINS: Well, let me say a couple of
21 things. One is that new trucks that are being
22 produced today are quieter than they were before,
23 because of a rule which has been promulgated by the
24 EPA. We are not picking on motorcycles. There are
25 other products.
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I MR. RICHARDS: That’s what the pamphlet they
give me says. You’re picking on motorcycles.
3 MR. ELKINS: That’s what this hearing is for
4 MR. RICHARDS: That’s what it said in it,
what the pamphlet said, you know, on scooters. It
6 says motorcycles, you know, about the noise pollution
7 on motorcycles. That’s what this is about.
8 MR. ELKINS: Yes, this hearing.
9 MR. RICHARDS: That’s what all the people
10 are up here for.
11 MR. ELKINS: That’s right.
12 MR. RICHARDS: Talking about scooters.
13 MR. ELKINS: That’s right. That’s why we’re
14 here in St. Petersburg today, is to talk about
15 motorcycles.
16 MR. RICHARDS: We can’t talk about the smell
17 coming in from Tampa to St. Petersburg?
18 MR. NAVEEN: May I comment on that?
19 MR. RICHARDS: You know, you can puke,
20 because you ain’t got no windows.
21 MR. NAVEEN: Of the five people up here,
22 I am the only one that does air pollution in addition
23 to noise pollution work, and I know about what’s
24 happening over in Tampa.
25 MR. RICHARDS: Come to beautiful St. Pete
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1 and puke, from Tampa,. But you guys, nobody says
2 nothing about that, and that’s been there for years,
3 you know, and nobody says nothing about that. That’s
all I got to say.
5 MR. ELKINS: Okay. We appreciate your
6 coming and appreciate your comments. All right.
7 Is there anyone else? Okay, well, thank you
s all for coming. We appreciate each of the comments.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
10 (Meeting adjourned).
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