Brooklyn
Staten
Island
Raritan
> Bay
UNITED STATES PUBLIC HEALTH StRViCE
REGION H
public meeting
.	ON
WASTE DISPOSAL fM THE- NEW YORK BIGHT

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PUBLIC MEETING
on
WASTE DISPOSAL IN THE NEW YORK BIGHT
Thursday, October 16, 1958
345 East 46th Street
New York, N.Y.
UNITED STATES PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE
Region II
42 Droadway
New York 4, N.Y.

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PUBLIC MEETING ON WASTE DISPOSAL IN THE NEW YORK BIGHT
NEW YORK CITY
October 16, 1958	
CHAIRMAN:	Sylvan C. Martin
Regional Engineer> Region II
U. S. Public Health Service
New York 4, New York
PANEL:	Mark Abelson
Staff Assistant
Technical Review Staff
Office of the Secretary
Department of the Interior
59 Temple Place
Boston, Massachusetts
A. F. Dappert
Executive Secretary
New York State Water Pollution
Control Board
84 Holland Avenue
Albany, New York
Robert Shaw
Director
Bureau of Environmental Sanitation
New Jersey State Health Department
Trenton, New Jersey
PANEL CHAIRMAN: Murray Stein
Chief
Interstate Enforcement Section
Water Pollution Control Program
U. S. Public Health Service
Washington 25, D. C.
A list of those in attendance is attached as "AppendixA"
An Index is attached as "Appendix B"

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MARTIN: It Is past the appointed hour and we have to start.
Will you all be seated. Before starting, I want to
thank all of you for coming here this afternoon. You
evidence your interest in this problem which we will
have under discussion this afternoon.
1 would also like to announce that the hearing will con-
tinue after we adjourn this afternoon; it will continue
this evening from 8 to 10 P.M. for anybody who wishes
to contribute any additional information that they
might have with regard to this particular problem.
My name is Sylvan C. Martin. I am Regional Engineer
of the U. S. Public Health Service, Regions 1 and 2,
with offices here in New York City. Our office serves
the ten northeastern States. I should like to open
this meeting by stating why it is being held and the
purpose of it.
This can best be done by reading to you a letter which
the Commissioner of Health of the State of New York,
Dr. Herman E. Hilleboe, sent to the Surgeon General of
the Public Health Service. The letter read6 as follows:
"This Department and the Governor's office continue to
receive complaints alleging serious pollution of
Atlantic Ocean water by industrial waste dumped at sea
by the National Lead Company of Sayreville, New Jersey.
"The most recent complaint has come from the Sportsmen's
Council of the New York Marine District. This Council
represents 125 different fishing and boatmen's clubs
and strongly contends that this dumping operation is
seriously damaging to the fishing and boating Industry
of New York State.
"As you probably know, this dumping operation takes
place in Atlantic Ocean water beyond the boundaries of
the States of New York and New Jersey, but in waters
subject to Federal jurisdiction.
"The dumping of chemical wastes, consisting principally
of ferrous sulfate and sulfuric acid in an area 13
miles from Scotland Lightship-'and ten miles off the
coast of New Jessey, is covered by a permit granted to
the National Lead Company by the Captain of the Port of
New York.
"In issuing this permit, the Captain of the Port of New
York was guided by the advice of the U. S. Fish and
Wildlife Service, Studies; of this matter were made
in 1949 by the U. S. Fish and Wildlife
Service and the Woods Hole Oceanographic

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Institution, sponsored by the National Research
Council of the National Academy of Science with
funds supplied by the National Lead Company.
"These studies are reported upon in the National
Research Council's Publication No. 201 published in
1951 and entitled "Study of the Disposal of Chemical
Wastes at Sea." These studies resulted in the con-
elusion that under the conditions prevailing during
the period of the investigation the procedure employed
by the National Lead Company in disposing of wastes
from its titanium plant is entirely proper and the
operation should not be discouraged unless some new.
facta justify a contrary opinion.
"The recent complaints emphasize the need for re-
examination of the matter in the light of nearly ten
years of dumping operations, the increases in the volume
of wastes which may have occurred and the damaging con-
ditions which complainants contend they have observed
in the years since the dumping operation was estab-
lished.
"We believe that the matter should be subjected to
further investigation and, since the operation is a
Federally permitted one, it should be Investigated by
Federal authorities. As a matter of fact, the Woods
Hole Oceanographlc Institution, in response to pre-
vious communications from us, has voiced the opinion
that it might be in the public interest to have some
annual survey made to determine whether, in fact,
unanticipated and undesirable effects are resulting
from these operations.
"I have been directed by Governor Harriman to take
this matter up with you and request that another study
of the operation and its effects be made as soon as
possible. I appreciate that unless the National Lead
Company can be persuaded to supply the funds which
would be needed for a study as comprehensive as the
one which was made in 1949, It would take some time for
the Federal agencies which would be involved to develop
plans and obtain funds for a Federally financed investi-
gation.
"In any event, I am requesting you to explore the pos-
sibilities of a restudy of the National Lead Company's
operations and to do what you can to get such a restudy
underway."
End of Dr. Hilleboe's letter.

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Pursuant to the receipt of this letter and in accord-
ance with Section 4B of the Federal Water Pollution
Control Act which authorizes the Surgeon General upon
request of any State water pollution control agency
"to conduct investigations and research and make sur-
veys concerning any specific problem of water pollu-
tion confronting any State, interstate agency, com-
munity, municipality or industrial plant with a view
of recommending a solution of such a problem..."
Representatives of the Public Health Service in
Washington conferred with officials of the U. S. Fish
and Wildlife Service. Subsequently the Surgeon General
forwarded Or. Hilleboe's letter to our New York office
with a request: (1) that investigation be made concern-
ing the nature, source and validity of the complaint
(2) that we confer on this matter with representatives
of the New York and New Jersey State agencies concerned
and (3) that all other pertinent facts be obtained in
order that the problem could be evaluated and a suit-
able report made to Dr. fiilleboe and other official
agencies.
Since then we have collected all the factual information
that we could find on this problem. While Dr. Hilleboe's
letter refers mainly to complaints about dumping in the
New York Bight of industrial wastes from the National
Lead Company's plant at Sayreville, New Jersey, it is
common knowledge that sludge from sewage treatment
plants in New York and New Jersey has been dumped in
the Bight since issuance of the first permit for this
purpose in 1937. Other industries have also been
issued permits for dumping of waste materials in the
area under consideration. Location of these dumping
areas is indicated on the maps which we have here in
front and on the side of the hall.
You will notice these maps here. This is the area where
the sludge is being dumped, the center one is where the
National Lead wastes are being discharged and the third
one is where chemical wastes from the Callery Chemical
Company are being discharged.
Two studies have been made by the Woods Hole Oceanographic
Institution in 1949 and 1956, and a third by the
Philadelphia consulting firm, Consulting Biologists,
during the summers of 1956 and 1957.
We have obtained a copy of the report of each of these
studies. To insure that all other information is
available for evaluation by the Public Health Service,

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we are holding this public meeting to receive Atate^
ments from anyone having information pertinent to
this problem. To assist us in obtaining factual
information, we have asked these men on my left here
to serve as an inquiry panel during this meeting. I
should like to introduce them at this time.
On the left we have Mr. Robert Shaw, Chief, Bureau of
Public Health Engineering and Assistant Director of
the 01vieion of Environmental Health with the New
Jersey State Department of Health. Mr. Shaw.
Next we have Mr. Mark Abelson who is the Northeast
Area Representative of the Secretary of the Interior
and es such is representing the U. S. Fish and Wildlife
Service.
NeJit we have Mr. Murray Stein representing the Water
Supply and Water Pollution Control Program of the
Public Health Service who will serve as Chairman of
the panel.
And next to Mr. Stein, on his right, we have Mr. A. F.
Dappert, Executive Secretary, Water Pollution Control
Board, New York State Department of Health.
I would also like to Introduce at this time two men
who are not memberc of this panel but are here trying
to help me a little bit -- Dr. William Ingram who is
an aquatic biologist with our water pollution control
work at the Public Health Service Sanitary Engineering
Center in Cincinnati. And on my right is Mr. Lester
Rlashman who is my assistant in water supply and pollu-
tion control in this area.
Following this meeting, all of the information obtained
today will be turned over to the Public Health Service
Sanitary Engineering Center for an evaluation. This
center is the sanitary engineering research and tech-
nical arm of the Public Health Service.
To assist the Center in this evaluation, we are asking
this panel and a representative of the fishing industry
to serve as an Advisory Technical Committee. I want to
assure each of you that we in the Public Health Service
have no fixed ideas on this subject and that our only
interest today is to obtain all of the facts available
so that this problem may be properly evaluated.
Now, a word about the procedures governing the conduct
of this meeting. Mr. Ungarsohn, a stenographer here,

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is present and will make a stenographic record of
the proceedings today which we will use in preparing
a summary and a report for the use of the SEC and
the Technical Advisory Committee.
1 would like to ask that each one of you who speaks
please start by giving his full name and the agency
or industry which he represents and, if you would,
if you could come up at this corner for those of you
that are handy here and those of you who would be
more handy over there, over at that corner, and 1
think there is a certain spot here if you have some-
thing to read, you will find a light that will be con-
ducive to reading. If you get over too far, there is
a little bit too deep a shadow.
If anyone has not already completed a registration card,
would you please raise your hand so that we could get
you one. You all have them? Be sure to indicate on
the card your full name and address and the name and
address of any organization you represent. Also,
please indicate if you have a written statement that
you wish to submit. We hope that as many as can will
present written statements. If you have them prepared,
fine. We will be glad to take them now. If not, we
can obtain them later. You will also be given an
opportunity, if you wish, of making an oral summary or
statement here this afternoon. If you are not prepared
to submit a written statement today, and desire to do so,
we shall hold the record open of this meeting for a
period of 30 days to receive such statements.
Since the sole purpose of this meeting is to receive
pertinent information about this problem, there will
be no discussion, challenge or cross examination of
the verbal statements presented today. The only ques* ¦
tions which we want asked are those by the inquiry panel
and these will be confined to such questions as may
elicit additional facts and information or will clarify
the statements presented.
We sincerely hope that within three to six months after
this meeting the Sanitary Engineering Center and the
Technical Advisory Committee will be able to evaluate
all of the data and develop conclusions and recommend-
ations concerning the present situation.
A VOICE; Mr. Martin, is Mr. Rose In the house?
MR. ROSE: Yes.
MR. MARTIN: Before we start, are there any questions? I'd like,

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first tif all, to call on Colonel Rogers, the Dis-
trict Engineer of the Corps of Engineers, for any
statement that he might wish to present. Colonel
Rogers?
COLONEL ROGERS; I am Colonel Rogers, District Engineer from
the New York District of the New York Harbor. My
purpose in appearing before you this afternoon is to
review briefly the history of disposal of waste mate-
rials in the metropolitan area and to sumnarise cer-
tain Federal laws pertinent to that problem.
Can everyone hear me? 1 didn't realize, Mr. Martin,
that 1 might appear this afternoon and be subject to
inquiries from representatives of other Federal
agencies, but I wish to cooperate fully with you, and
1 do submit my thoughts to such inquiries as there are.
MR. MARTIN: Sir, let me assure you that they will only be
questions on clarification of something that they may
have heard. We do not intend to go into a long exam-
ination or anything like that. We do not want anybody
to feel that they are under questioning, if they don't
particularly want to be. We are trying to hold this
down to just a presentation of the information and the
only reason 1 thought that maybe the panel might want
to ask a couple of questions is to bring out a facet
or some fact that was presented. Let me be quite clear,
COLONEL ROGERS: I will be very, very pleased to answer any
questions that you may have to ask.
In June of 1888, the United States Congress passed an
Act establishing the office of Supervisor of New York
Harbor. I personally hold this office, in addition to
being a District Engineer, which I lave already men-
tioned .
The Act of 1888 was for the purpose of, I will quote a
part of it, "preventing obstructive and injurious
deposits in the tidal waters of the Harbor of New York
or its adjacent or tributary waters, or those of Long
Island Sound within the limits which shall be prescribed
by the Supervisor."
It might be well if I read that again. The purpose of
the Act was "preventing obstructive and injurious deposits
in the tidal waters of the Harbor of New York or its
adjacent or tributary waters or those of Long Island
Sound, within the limits which shall be prescribed by
the Supervisor."

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Incidentally, it is the Supervisor of New York Harbor
that issues these petite tod not the Captain of the
Port. It is this law that I enforce when I grant or
deny a permit for the disposal of waste materials at
sea. These waste materials include rubble, broken
concrete, debris and earth from highway and building
construction, dredge material from channels, from the
slips in the harbor, garbage, acid, sewage, sludge
from fuel wastes.
The total amount of disposal for which we grant per-
mits during the course of a year is 15 million cubic
yards. Then with everything that is disposed of at
sea, we also grant permits for disposal other than at
sea, that is a program beyond this 15 million.
It might be Interesting for you to know that if all the
materials for which we grant permits for disposal at
sea since the passage of this Act were piled up on
Manhattan Island, it would reach about 70 feet.
I think the problem this afternoon has primarily to do
with acid wastes, and I will devote the rest of my
remarks to that problem. Prior to 1948, the National
Lead Company discharged its waste acid solutions from
the plant at Sayreville, New Jersey into the Raritan
River. The resulting pollution has become most objec-
tionable from any points of view, including that of
navigation, and the company had been cited for violation
of the Act of 1888.
Prior to 1948, the Supervisor of New York Harbor had
completed a careful survey of the problem with close
coordination with the New York District Engineer, haul-
ing companies, the Interstate Sanitation Consnission,
the Bureau of Marine Fisheries of the New York State
Conservation Department, the Fish and Wildlife Service
of the United States Department of the Interior, the
Atlantic States Marine Fisheries, the Bureau of Food
and Drugs of the Department of Health and other
agencies. The Fish and Wildlife Service, which has a
very keen interest, a direct interest in this matter,
advised the Supervisor of New York Harbor in 1946, as
Mr. Martin read from the letter, that from the stand-
point of maintaining the aquatic resources of the
Nation, that the agency of Fish and Wildlife offers no
objection to the disposal of wastes at sea, subject to
proper control.
Shortly thereafter, a plan was worked out for the dis-
posal of waste acids at sea for a trial period, during

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which trial period, tests and experiments were to bid
Conducted to ascertain the effects of this operation,
particularly on aquatic life.
The area selected for this test was the one shown here,
about 14 miles south and east of the Scotland Light.
The actual location of the area varies from suntmar to
winter slightly. The method of dumping was described
so as to obtain the greatest possible dilution.
The first actual acid dumping took place in April 1948
and since that time there have been numerous tests,
experiments, surveys, conducted to determine the effect
of the operation. I refer you to some reports that have
already been mentioned by Mr. Martin, one published in
1948 by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
entitled "The Study of the Disposal of Chemical Wastes
at Sea," another published in 1951 by the National
Research Council and a rather recent study by the Moods
Hole Oceanographic Institution in October 1956.
These reports and others, none of these reports or others,
I should say, has brought forth any evidence of undesir-
able effect of any sort arising from the present waste
added method of disposal. Until such evidence is brought
to light, the Supervisor of New York Harbor has no alter-
native but to continue to grant the permits.
However, our interest in the past, as I have already
indicated to you and as are well documented, our interest
in the future will be to cooperate wholeheartedly on this
problem, and if in the future any new and authoritative
evidence should be brought to light, I assure you that
it will be given the fullest possible consideration by
my office.
I'm sorry that I will not be able to remain throughout
all of this hearing. I will be pleased to answer any
questions from the panel or from the floor, if you like.
I would like to request that I be furnished a free copy
of the transcript.
MR. MARTIN; Of course. Does the panel have any questions?
MR. STEIN; I would like to say, Colonel, that neither you nor
anyone else who may come up need not answer any ques-
tion from the panel if they did not so wish.
Mr. Dappert, do you have any questions?
MR. DAPPERT; No, the Colonel's remarks were such a clear state-
ment that I would have no questions to ask of him

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concerning it at all.
MRi STEIN: Mr. Shaw?
MR. SHAW: No, I have no questions.
MR, STEIN: None from you, Mr. Abelson?
Colonel, may I ask you, when giving out these permits,
are they for a particular term of years or until
revoked?
COLONEL ROGERS: They can be either way. Normally we grant new
permits even for continuing operations each year, but
the permit itself can be stopped for good reason at the
will of the Secretary anytime.
MR> STEIN: In granting these permits, is there a particular
limitation of the amount, the nature of waste, a par*
ticular material he may dump?
COLONEL ROGERS: That is tzue. Not only the limitation involves
material and the quantity, but the manner in which it
is disposed.
MR. STEIN: One further question. 1 assume from your remarks
that you also issue permits for the dumping of sludge.
Has your office received any complaints as to the dele-
terious effect of the dumping of sludge where the
sludge is dumped pursuant to your permit?
COLONEL ROGERS: Wo do issue such permits and we have no
objection from any authoritative source. I might men-
tion that we also grant permits for the disposal of
high explosives at sea, radioactive material, and a
great variety of things.
MR. STEIN: Thank you, Colonel. I have no further questions.
MR. MARTIN: I would prefer not to adhere to our original posi-
tion. What we are here actually for is to try to get
additional information to what we might have, and
although we would like to take time to throw this open
for discussion, I don't think this is the time or the
place to do it.
A VOICE: Is a question permitted from the floor?
MR. MARTIN: I would prefer not to.
Next, we will have Mr. O'Leary, representing the New
York City Department of Public Works, and ask him if

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he has any statements to iiij&e.
MR, O^LEARY: I have a written statement which I would like
to read.
MR. IfoRTIN: Certainly, sir.
MR. O'LEARY: And also a couple of slides to show.
My name is William A. O'Leary, Director of Sewage
Disposal of the Department of Public Works, City of
New York.
One of the important functions of the New York City
Department of Public Works is the removal of materials
which would pollute the waters of New „'ork Harbor.
Thi3 Department is keenly aware of its responsibilities
toward the attainment of clean waters in this area and
in dumping of sewage sludge at sea. Therefore, we are
very much concerned that such an operation must not
nullify any of our own efforts or interfere in any way
with our objective of achieving clean and sanitary
waters. To check this, some studies have been made to
determine whether the practice of sludge dumping by
New York City and neighboring communities in the
assigned area at sea does in any way constitute a sani-
tary hazard to local waters.
Could I have the slide, please?
A very intensive cooperative study was made on six
successive days, from May 2 to May 7, 1938, by the
New York City Department of Public Works, the Joint
Meeting, New Jersey, the Passaic Valley Sewerage Com-
mission and the Supervisor of New York Harbor.
The results of these tests were reported on June 6, 1938
and the details may be examined in that report. A
resume of the findings is appropriate here.
During the six day test period, New York City dumped
seven boatloads of sludge, three barge loads came from
Passaic Valley and one from the Joint Meeting at Jersey;
the barge "carryall" holding about twice the volume of
the New York City vessels was employed \,y the Jersey
community.
A series of sampling stations was laid out with the
designated dumping point serving as the center of four
concentric semi-circles as shown on the slide, one-half,
one, two and four miles away; five radii from the center

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point were plotted iii ft northeast, north, northwest,
west and southwest direction, so as to cover all
directions toward land areas. Wherever the radius
crossed the circle, it was considered a sampling
point. This gave 21 sampling stations in various
directions at various distances from the point of
dumping. Samples and observations were made of each
of these points, and of each return to the center,
giving 25 such samples each day. The week's samp-
ling covered a complete tidal cycle and the effects
of wind from all directions. No rain occurred during
that period.
Observations were made for color, odor and floating
materials. Samples were picked up for analysis for
turbidity, suspended solids, dissolved oxygen, bio-
chemical oxygen demand and a 24 hour, 37 degree
centigrade bacteria count. One hundred and forty sets
of samples were picked up for these analyses during
this week.
No sludge was dumped from 7;40 P.M., May 3 to 11:45
A.M., May 5. On May 4, thirty three sets of samples
were taken for analysis, and since they were between
dumpings and found to be very clean, these figures
serve as a base for "normal conditions" to be expected
in these waters. Within this short interval between
dumpings, all evidence of pollution had disappeared
from the area.
At the immediate time of the discharging and within the
wake of the.dumping, the odor sometimes was earthy and
sometimes putrescent. The water was brown and a greasy
foam or slick was left on the surface. The bulk of the
material was observed to settle very rapidly. Chemical
and bacteriological teste reflected this immediate
heavy organic pollution.
At the surrounding stations, no odor was found, vege-
table and fruit fragments had disappeared by sinking
and by seagull action. Rubber goods were occasionally
observed. Some oil or grease slicks spread out for a
short distance; then by dilution, dispersion and coag-
ulation, it too disappeared. Within very short dis-
tances, the waters bad returned to their normal appear-
ance.
The analyses on samples taken at intervals after dumping
at the point of discharge show that the suspended solids
and dissolved oxygen were back to normal within one to
two and a half hours, the biochemical oxygen demand and

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bacteria count were more variable, returning to
"normal" two to thirteen hours after dumping.
All evidence of pollution disappeared within a half
a mile of the point of dumping, except for an occa*
sional patch of slick or rubber contraceptives.
This study, therefore, concluded that the dumping area
does not show any cumulative effects of pollution and
that the results of the damping activity are dissipated
in a very short time and within a very short distance
of the focal point.
In April and May of 1949 — the next slide please --
and again, in April and May of 1950, additional sur-
veys were made to check on eny possible dispersal of
pollution from the dumping grounds back toward the
Rockaway or Coney Island shores. The results of these
studies are given in the annual Harvard Survey Reports
for their respective years. During one of these studies
in 1949, the sludge boat carrying our chemiots altered
their usual return course by going in a northerly direc-
tion, as shown by B on the slide, from the dumping
grounds toward the black and white bell buoy in "East
Rockaway," which is about one-half mile off shore
between Far Rockaway and Atlantic Beach.
This route is designated B on the slide. Samples were
picked up along this return line; half a mile, two and
a half, four and a half and 6.5 nautical miles from
the dumping grounds and at the buoy. The vessel then
proceeded westerly, parallel to and about a half a mile
from shore and samples were picked up two, four and six
miles from this buoy. Samples were taken at each loca-
tion from just below the surface to off the bottom.
Where the water was vety deep, the "bottom sample" was
taken at a depth of 40 feet. Four more such trips were
made in *49 along a slightly different course designated
C on the slide, and then along a line parallel to Coney
Island to the Narrows. In April and May of *50, five
more sampling trips similar to the last described also
were made.
In all instances, it was very clear that the sanitary
condition of the waters was excellent within a half
mile of the dumping grounds, that no signs of degrada-
tion appeared until we approached the mouth of the
harbor. The saturation values were highest within a
half mile of the dumping grounds and the total bacterial
count and the coliform concentration were lowest in this
area. For example, the coliform concentration within a

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half mile iroa the dumping grounds averaged .21 per
milliliter; whereas at the Narrows,'it-averaged 17.5 per
milliliter. 1 might say that that concentration as
of now would be a very low one. Normally we would
expect to find a multiple of 17.5 per milliliter,
but that's what they reported and that's what it was
put down as. From these tests, one may Justifiably
conclude that any water coming from the dumping ground
area toward the adjacent shores would only tend to im-
prove the conditions there.
From these carefully conducted investigations, we feel
justified in concluding that the present method and
location of disposal of sewage sludge very satisfactorily
protects our shores chemically, bacteriologically and
aesthetically.
In the year 1957 the Department disposed of about 91,000
tons of eludge, measured on a dry basis. Of this total
some 45,000 tons was removed from the sewage as raw
sludge, the balance being digested sludge from all the
other plants. This was treated at Wards Island plant.
It is planned to install sludge digestion facilities
at Wards Island under the current Pollution Control
Capital Expenditure Program. Ultimately, all sludge
from New-York City plants will be digested.
Will ypu show the next two slides please. Just to give
you an idea of our vessel. This vessel is being loaded
at Owls Head. We are currently constructing another
vessel, a duplicate practically of this vessel.
The next slide please. This is a rendering of the new
vessel.
I will now hand this to you, Mr. Martin, signed by the
Commissioner of Public Works.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. O'Leary. Do any of the panel members
have any questions they would like to ask? Mr. Dappert?
MR. DAPPERT: No, I have none.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Shaw, Mr. Abelson?
MR. ABELSON: Have you ever had any complaints directed at you
as to sludge effects in these waters or on the shore?
MR. O'LEARY: Well, as far as I can recollect, it goes back to
previous to the time that I became Director, this col-
laborative sludge dumping study was made in 1933, as a

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result of which, there was complaint to the Super-
visor of the Harbor. The Supervisor of the Harbor
had issued an order that sludge vessels should go
twenty miles east and southeast of Scotland Light
instead of eight miles east and southeast.
At that time this cooperative study was made by the
Ward organizations and as a result of that report,
the Supervisor did not go through with that order.
Then, I understand, there was a complaint some years
later by, 1 don't know whether it was a legislator
— do you remember, Bob? It had to do with the
effects along the Rockaway shore, and that was the
reason for these other samplings that we took to see
whether there was any validity to that complaint.
They are the only complaints that I have any knowl-
edge of.
MR. ABELSON: There have not bien, I take it then, any con-
sistent or chronic complaints in your studies on the
survey along the Rockaway shores.
MR. O'LEARY: I got this secondhand from Tom Glenn. The
Mayor of Long Branch got the complaint Laat some pre-
sumably garbage over in New York City was not dis-
posed of at sea. The Supreme Court banned that years
ago.
MR. STEIN: Have you ever heard statements made that the sludge
dumping actually improves the fishing resources?
MR. O'LEARY: I have that on second hearsay. Mr. Gould said
that there have been some representations made in an
unofficial way that they should dump further north.
MR. STEIN: That's interesting. I don't think the aquatic
biologists would recommend that.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. O'Leary.
I hope none of you misinterpret my ruling with regard
to questions. The type of meeting we are having and
particularly the time available Just precludes unlimited
questions from the floor, and once you open it up, I
don't quite know how to control it. Time is not so much
of the essence this afternoon because of the size of our
group, but we are expecting a continuing of this hearing
this evening and we expect a much larger crowd, and I
just can't allow procedure this afternoon that we won't
be able to allow this evening.

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IS
If any of you have points about any of the matters
which ace raised here which you would like to com-
ment on and either clarify for the record or give
additional information or such information as yon
have about those, you are perfectly at liberty to
do that when you make your full statement.
Next* I would like to call on Captain George Holtzman,
representing the United States Coast Guard. Mr.
Holtanan has submitted a written statement to us about
this and I wonder if he has any addition.il comments
which he may want to make.
CAPT. HOLTZMAN: Mr. Martin, 1 was just going to thank you on
behalf of the Commander of the Third Coast Guard Dis-
trict for inviting us to attend this session. I have
no other remarks to make outGide of my written state-
ment.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you very much, Captain.
Next, I would like to call on Mr. Wayne Heydecker,
Executive Secretary co the Atlantic States Fisheries
Commission. Mr. Heydecker also has submitted his
statement to us and I wonder if he wishes to moke any
additional comments. Mr. Heydecker.
MR. HEYDECKER: Mr. Martin, try name is Wayne D. Heydecker.
I'm the Secretary Treasurer of the Atlantic States
Marine Fisheries Coooaission, which is a joint agency
of the thirteen States from Maine to Florida along the
Atlantic Coast.
Our Commission has taken no position upon this matter
since its early days when it became Interested in the
proposal, when it was first advanced, appointed a
committee of scientists to analyze whether or not this
waste material would be harmful to fisheries.
On the basis of their report, a negative report, the
Commission acquiesced when the Fish and Wildlife
Service reported they had no objection to the initia-
tion of the undertaking.
The Commission, however, has recerved its judgment all
through these years. Its policy has been a policy of
watchful waiting and if at any time, damage to the
fisheries is revealed, I have no doubt that the Com-
mission will take whatever action circumstances re
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16
first undertaken, there have been numerous investi-
gations which you, Mr. Martin, referred to and which
Colonel Rogers referred to. Each of these reports
has been examined by our Commission and studied, and
the Commission on each occasion has concluded that
there has been no additional evidence presented to it
for its consideration sufficient to justify it in tak-
ing action.
It has therefore continued its policy of watchful wait-
ing. It has therefore, also, taken a recent stand.
In 1955, it was very glad to afford an ample oppor-
tunity for representatives of the Sportsmen's Council
of the Marine District to present their entire problem
to the Commission at its 15th Annual Meeting, and it
was reviewed, their request was carefully considered
and the Commission regretted that the Commission could
not undertake to carry out the request that was pre-
sented .
In reporting these things, 1 do not wish the panel to
conclude that the Commission is opposed to further
study. On the contrary, representatives on this Com-
mission from both New York and New Jersey have expressed
the hope that continuing studies will be made over a
period of years in close cooperation with the U. S,
Fish and Wildlife Service and the conservation agencies
of the two States, to determine the effects of all forms
of waste disposal in the Bight of New York upon the
total ecology of the area.
Some of them feel, however, quite strongly that it is
not necessary at public expense to conduct expensive
research of areas that have recently been re-examined
and reported upon by competent scientists.
I repeat that if scientific findings at any time should
show damage to the fisheries, it is assumed that this
Commission would act promptly in whatever manner the
evidence warranted. However, up to the present time,
it has continued its feeling that it has not received
any evidence that in its opinion would justify action.
I have filed a memorandum with you, in which I have
given you a brief summary.
MR. MARTIN; Mr. Stein, does the panel wish to ask some ques-
tions?
MR. STEIN: I have no questions.
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17
MR, MARTIN; Mr. Shaw, Mr. Abel son?
Now, we have Mr. Don Manns representing the Long
Island League of Salt Water Sportsmen, for what-
ever statement he wishes to present.
MR. MANNS; Ladles and gentlemen, 1 felt duty bound to
attend this hearing today as a sort of climax to
a number of years that I have personally put in as
representative of various sportsmen's organizations,
holding against acid dumping and in fact, all pollu-
tion occurring off New York and anywhere else, for
that matter.
I have a statement that will take approximately ten
minutes to read, and I want to say beforehand that
we don't wish to embarrass any people present; the
criticisms contained in here are entirely impersonal
and I believe represent the majority of the sportsmen
on Long Island and through New York.
I might say too that it has been a pleasure to see a
great number of people that I have previously corres-
ponded with through my anti-pollution activities and
others that I have met in previous years. There is
quite a gathering here and I hope that this hearing
ends up on a successful note to abate our pollution
problem.
The statement is as follows:
The Long Island League of Saltwater Sportsmen, the
largest sportsmen's federation on Long Island, repre-
senting 6,000 individual fishermen, numerous sportsmen
and conservation organizations, elements of the boat-
ing industry and the Boatmen's Association from
Sheepshead Bay, Montauk, Long Island Sound, Freeport,
is now and has been wholeheartedly opposed to the waste
disposal at sea operation of the National Lead Company.
This pollution operation has been equally offensive to
many thousands of unorganized fishermen, private boat-
men and commercial fishermen, who have observed this
pollution over the years and have expressed their
indignation and distaste for this unwarranted and foul
practice.
Inasmuch as Long Island and the metropolitan area is
in the midst of a population growth, with subsequent
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18
decline in available land facilities for recreational
opportunity, as well as commercial and industrial ex-
pansion, the natural trend to the ocean's resource for
recreational needs is opening a demand for a new ap-
praisal for water priority uses.
The Marine Sportsmen and Boatmen are heartened by the
public hearing at this stage, in that they have the
first opportunity in many years to record their
undivided opposition to the pollution in the waters
of New York Bay and to all other present and future
forms of waste disposal in or near the waters embodied
in the New York, New Jersey and Connecticut areas.
In this connection, a statement by two eminent biologists
in 1948 are fully applicable today. The statements of
Doctors Westman and Bidwell is as follows: I read the
seme statement at a hearing down in Virginia in 1955.
"Pollution is the number one conservation problem in
the region of New York State. It has caused more
damage to the fisheries than all other man-made factors
combined. It is a result of the increasing population
density and the industrial development on the one hand,
and an unawareness and neglect on the other. The
problem, however, has now become so acute — this is
ten years ago, but from a health and conservation
standpoint, there is a rapidly spreading awareness of
the need for drastic action. Unfortunately the very
need for drastic action has resulted in another menace,
namely, the redistribution of waste from a more heavily
to a less affected location, without adequate consider*
ation of overall consequences. In other words, by
ignoring this, we stand a very real chance of bringing
about a repetition of pollution history, a gradual
growth of pollution in a relatively fresh region."
In review, the Sportsmen's fight against the "acid
dumping" dates back to 1946 when the first moves were
made by the National Lead Works to test the ocean's
waste receiving potential, following a New Jersey court
order forbidding that company to further pollution of
the Raritan's waters. Despite numerous objections by
New York and New Jersey leagues, by more substantial
warnings of scientific persons that daily acid waste
disposals could create great dangers to the fisheries,
National Lead was permitted to proceed on its course
of offshore pollution in April of 1948. As a result,
scientific tests were done to determine the effects of
these dumpings. Halfway through these surveys, the
company was given a different dumping location. This
survey concerned itself mainly with factors other than
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19
the effects of waste on fish life, and a negative
report in 1950 was tempered with the statement that
"final evidence on whether the pelagic fish are being
harmed by the waste disposal operations will probably
come only from the experience of the fishermen."
Years passed with attempts to halt this dumping, until
1956, 1957, when a Sportsmen's sponsored survey of the
area was m&ie over this period. Although League per-
sonnel enrolled in this survey from start to finish,
the factual findings of this financially limited study
was left to others to report on. It should be fully
noted that in the past decade of dumping in this area,
no efforts of officials have been made to induce the
professional fishermen or the sports fishermen to
seek evidence, to keep records or to report private
observations made over the years, pertaining to the
effects of the wastes of fishing productivity. On
the contrary, they have been discouraged in every
attempt to persuade conservation, health and other
such agencies to investigate and re-ewaiuafce or consider
any other solution as an alternative to offshore
dumping. The whole burden of proof has been placed
on the innocent party while the offender has found
sanctuary in the form of a privately financed and
widely exploited scientific survey made in the in-
itial years of the disposal.
It is the opinion of the Long Island League of Salt
Water Sportsmen that the cumulative effect of ten and
a half years of such continual dumpings, during which
period a total tonnage of 17 million tons of acid,
sulfuric acid, ferrous sulfate and unknown waste com-
pounds have been discharged over and about the most
precious fishing grounds in the North Atlantic and
have in fact, been responsible for the following con-
ditions :
A.	They have caused a definite diversion of food and
game fish from the contaminated waters that would
otherwise provide the ultimate in beneficial properties
for the propagation of all fish life.
B.	That the resulting operation and the subsequent sur-
face and sub-surface drift of matter has caused consider-
able damage to aquatic organisms, plankton and plant
life.
C.	They have caused adverse consequences to the spann-
ing and migratory habits of the most desirable species
of fish in this region, and has been of influence on
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20
even coastal fish.
D. That the dumpings have caused unnecessary hard-
ships and impositions on the passenger, charger,
commercial and the overall fishing in this region.
In conclusion, the League submits the following
recommendations to abate this problem and its
ramifications.
1.	That the National Lead Company and other poten-
tial pollutors be compelled to fully resort to what
are known to be previously used, presently existing
and otherwise feasible methods and processes for
economically converting iron sulfate wastes, sulfuric
acid and other substances from wastes presently dumped
off bhore and that such treatment plants be placed in
operation within a three year period.
2.	That in the Federal waters where the dumping exists,
the Federal Government institute a new and comprehen-
sive survey with a major proportion of such investiga-
tion devoted to the effects of pollution of the ocean
resource and fisheries.
3.	That pending the results of such long range survey
on the effects of offshore disposal, that any and all
other applicants for similar disposal permits be duly
refused.
4.	That the Public Health Service and other govern-
ment agencies support corrective pollution legisla-
tion to properly protect these waters from further mis-
use, such as that annually introduced by Congressman
Francis E. Dom of New York, namely HR 3106 and 3107
in the 84th Congress and HR 5406 and 5407 in the 85th.
5» That the Federal Government forbid the dumping of
radioactive or similar wastes that are in any manner
considered hazardous to human life, within one thousand
miles of our Coast, and only then when positive proof
is shown that such is a safe distance and further, after
every precaution is taken, to prevent absorption of
radioactivity by migrating food fish.
The Long Island League of Salt Water Sportsmen hereby
requests the U. S. Public Health Service to fulfill
their responsibilities to protect the public's right-
ful interest in this matter by taking positive action
to eliminate any and all offshore disposal operations.
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21
From the Long Island League of Salt Water Sportsmen,
respectfully, Don Manns, Executive Secretary.
MR. STEIN: Mr. Manns, would you mind waiting for questioning.
MR. DAPPERT; I would .like to ask a question, Mr. Manns. In
your statement, I think you said that since 1946 or
*47, no State agency, either the Health Department or
the Conservation Department has made any move or ex-
pended any effort with relation to this problem.
MR. MAMNS: The statement. I made, Mr. Dappert, was that no
efforts were made by these agencies to induce the pro-
fessional or sports fishermen to submit statements or
to keep records or to report facts of cheir own.
MR. DAPPERT: That's what I am getting at, because in 1953,
the Boatmen's Association, I believe of Freeport,
petitioned the Water Pollution Control Board to look
in on this problem and do what we could to see what
it wa3 all about. We had no resources to make any
comprehensive investigation, but we did explore the
avenues of information that were accessible to us
and we did furnish a summary.
Now, I think the following year, myself and Dr. Senning
of the State Conservation Department held a meeting in
Freeport. Captain Mariuaccio was there I remember, and
there were 15, 16, 17 representatives of the sportsmen
and boat industries, and at that meeting, the thing
that we were trying to do was to encourage the boatmen
and so on to develop some kind of a systematic scheme
for recording the data which later could be used to
— as evidence to support the plans which were being
made. Has that ever been done?
MR. MANNS: Was there any follow-up on that, Mr. Dappert, to
see if the boatmen had done this?
MR. DAPPERT: No official agencies could tell these boatmen
and so on, it had to be organised among themselves and
that'8 what we were trying to do.
Now, had they done the thing along that line, are there
any data to support these arguments?
MR. MANNS: What I was saying, Mr. Dappert, is that there is
some data. Captain Marinaccio of the Freeport Boat-
men's Association made a report on that.
MR. STEIN: Do you have any further questions?
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22
MR. DAPPERT; No.
MR. STEIN: I would like to ask you a few questions. One,
I think, we should make the comment first, that we
should all understand the scope of this inquiry,
this fact gathering inquiry here, and that is to
deal with offshore dumping. Several remarks you
made earlier, in the early part of your statement,
deal with pollution in the New York area. Now, I
don't think there is much doubt that that exists,
but the question is whether the damage actually
comas from discharges from shore installations or
whether that comes from offshore installations,
dumping installations.
Here we are only considering the dumping installa-
tions. Now, there are four points you made as to
damages and I would like to go over them, perhaps,
one at a time and go over all of them, to see if
these are hypotheses or charges that are made, or
whether these are statements where the fishermen
and others have the information.
I might say before we start that the Public Health
Service, and as far as I know, all the official
agencies, welcome data collected by sportsmen and
other groups, because that is the one source that we
have of finding what the effects of pollution control
measures have on the people.
Now, the first one is diversion of food and game fish
presumably from a certain area, of the acid dumping
area marked up there — now, has that been supported
by observation?
MR. MAIINS: It has been supported by observation by fishermen
on board party boats and by the opinions of professional
boatmen.
MR. STEIN: What I am trying to get at is do you- think we can
have for the record specific statements by the people
who have made these observations as to where these fish
have been diverted from, what the varieties of fish are
and what the conditions were before and where they
think they went. I don't think it is very, very dif-
ficult in dealing with situations like this throughout
the country, and I am stating from countrywide experi-
ence , to get to grips with the question unless we have
the particulars on that, and if we do, I think that
will help sanitary engineering, Mr. Martin and the
panel, the technical panel in deciding where to go from
here.
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23
And the next point, I don't know, you may have the
sasne kind of information — damage to aquatic organisms
and plant life. Now, again, what is that based on, is
that based on observations, specific observations?
MR, MANNS: No, there is damage to plankton, for example, 1
think it will be supported by Dr. Charles Wurtz of the
Consulting Biologists. I happened to be aboard the
survey vessel in '56 and *57 on several occasions, and
actually witnessed the daad plankton after the acid
barge has pas3ed over and we took samples of the water
at that point.
MR, STEIN: Well, again 1 think if there are indications of that,
I think it would be advisable for you to, if no one else
does that, to point that out to the technical panel
specifically, and what the evidence is that there are
dying plankton in an existing area.
I might make the same, observation to the spawning and
migratory habits of fish. Now, again, 1 don't know,
is that based on observation, scientific ctucfy, what
spawning habits, what ftsh, in what areas? Now, again,
I'm saying this in a helpful manner, because we deal
with these problems all over the country and unless we
have that, we really don't have anything to shoot at.
I might also say to your last point, the damage to
charter fishing and sports groups, again a bill of
particulars, how, who, where, what and why and how
did this happen, wh?.n couldn't they go out, when did
they have the disappointment and specifically what
were they looking for?
MR. MANNS: Well, sir, I could make a statement now to every
point that you have brought up. I know for a fact
that Mr. Binner of the Sportsmen's Council is going to
report on the damage including the damage to the
plankton that I just mentioned, when he reports on the
Consulting Biologists' survey. I know that Captain
Marinaccio reported in more detail on the effects of
turbid water and the acid wastes on certain pelagic
fish, such as tuna fish, I myself have heard on many
occasions that the cod fish had been diverted from
the Cholera banks when the wind was in a certain direc-
tion, whereby the wastes were carried over the Cholera
banks, but 1 would like to bring up this point and I
went over it lightly in this paper.
To expect the sport fishermen or the professional
boatmen to walk into this hearing with a long list of
scientific proof and documented statements from
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24
biologists and doctors is entirely out of question.
You cannot possibly get such data from any sports-
man or from any boatman <
It will all be besed on their own professional ob-
servation and certainly, a man who has been fishing
in an Area for 20 or 30 years or more, certainly his
opinions are every bit worth looking into when
believing he has been out in the area day after day,
I don't think anybody else could have more experience
or more data than somebody's personal observations of
that sort.
Now, one of our recommendations in this paper was that
these previous surveys have only touched upon the
effects of pollutants on fish life, including the
National Research Study in '48 and '49 and port of '50,
and I am sure that most of these other surveys that we
have heard mention of today were more or less along
the same lines.
Now, what we have recommended is that the Federal
Government, possibly the Fish and Wildlife Service,
institute a new survey with 90 percent of such survey
based on the effects of pollutants on fish life, rather
than on hydrographic surveys, tidal movements and a
number of other things that they have previously exam-
ined quite thoroughly.
STEIN; Mr. Manns, may I suggest, 1 think certainly in the
public eye, we firmly agree with your statement that
fishermen cah tell us what they have seen or what they
heard or what they know on the basis of experience,
and we would expect nothing else, but I would suggest
that in the four points that you have mentioned, that
you very well may send to Mr. Martin as specific, as
specific statements as possible, documenting these
points, not In the scientific manner, but just on what
the fishermen have seen and observed and what they feel
is happening on the basis of their experience.
Now, most of the scientific reports we have are designed
to check the validity of these, but it is very, very
difficult to mount a scientific study which is going to
satisfy the questions you are going to ask and 1 am
going to ask unless we have the specifics before we
engage in the study and I think a detailed bill of par-
ticulars on all these points will aid the technical
panel in coming to a conclusion.
We certainly would appreciate that, Mr. Manns.
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25
MR. MANNS: I would be glad to forward It.
MR. STEIN; May we have your statement, by the way, as an
observer. Thank you, Mr. Manns.
MR. MARTIN; We are having a meeting this evening to provide
many of the fishermen who couldn't get here during
the day an opportunity of coming, and I imagine we
will get some of the statements, the type that Mr.
Stein wao talking about, this evening. At least,
I am hoping very much that we will. We hope we will
get everything that everybody has to contribute on
this matter.
Next 1 would like to call on Mr. John Binner, repre-
senting the Sportsmen'8 Council of the Marine District
for the New York — I must apologize, I have it down
here.
MR. BINNER; My name is John Binner. I am the President of
the Sportsmen's Council Marine District of New York
State. I have been an official of the Sportsmen's
Council since February of 1954 and its president since
1957, March, 1957.
In making this report on behalf of the Sportsmen's
Council and its 119 affiliated member clubs, I have
taken into consideration that others will also present
information of value regarding the disposal of wastes
in the ocean.
For instance, Captain Carmine Marinaccio of the
Freeport Boatmen's Association has informed me that he
will present at this hearing information regarding the
movements of pelagic fish.
For this reason, and to avoid duplication, I will con-
fine my statements to history and the results of a
biological survey of the New York Bight relative to
pollution in the area commonly referred to by fisher-
men as the "acid grounds."
Alerted by the increasing demands of member clubs and
individual sportsmen throughout New York's Marine Dis-
trict that something be done about the dumping in New
York Bight of acid wastes from the Titanium Division
of the National Lead Company of Sayreville, New Jersey,
the Sportsmen's Council in April of 1954 appointed a
committee to investigate the complaints and to make
recommendations for corrective action.
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26
This committee found sufficient cause for complaint
by the fishermen and recommended that the Sportsmen's
Council take steps to influence the National Lead
Company to discontinue its practice cf dumping its
wastes in the New York Bight area.
To accomplish this, the Council's Anti-Pollution Com-
mittee attempted to interest Government agencies,
Federal, State and local, to make a biological survey
of the acid grounds to determine to what extent these
dumpings affected the movement of the pelagic fish and
to what extent fishing in general was affected in the
area. Unfortunately, no Government agency agreed to
make the survey due, in some cases, to lack of juris-
diction and, in others, to apathy on the part of the
officials.
One of the Council's appeals for a survey was made to
the National Research Council and that organization
advised that, because of the lapse of time since an
earlier, 1949, survey was made, another survey of the
acid grounds might be desirable.
Undaunted by the National Lead Company's disinterest
in the Sportsmen's complaints and the lack of assist-
ance from government agencies, and encouraged by
Representative Francis E. Dorn's anti-pollution mea-
sures in the U. S. Congress to prohibit the disposal
of such wastes in coastal waters, the Sportsmen's
Council appealed to its member clubs and to individuals
to contribute toward a fund to be used to engage &
reputable firm of consulting biologists to survey the
acid grounds. As a result, 98 sports fishing and con-
servation organizations and approximately 100 individ-
uals contributed amounts from $1.00 to as much as
$300 each.
On July 5, 1956 the Sportsmen's Council entered into a
contract with the Consulting Biologists of Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania to undertake an investigation entailing
biological and chemical studies of the New York Bight area
relative to the waste disposal practices of the
National Lead Company at Sayraville, New Jersey. The
field work of the survey began on July 1, 1956 and
extended through August 4, 1957 and the laboratory
studies extended into December 1957. The Consulting
Biologists submitted its report to the Sportsmen's
Council on January 14, 1958. A copy of this report is
herewith submitted.
Because the limited funds available could not support
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27
an intensive study of the Bight relative to pollu-
tion, the data derived from this survey was very
limited. It is my firm opinion, however, that this
limited survey did point to the desirability of
further exploring the effects 6f pollution on fish
life in the New York Bight in a more elaborate phase
than was possible with the funds available.
The finding that fish larvae and certain of the plank-
ton were apparently killed by freshly discharged acid
waste is, in it6elf, alarming and should be seriously
considered and further verified.
The probable drift of pollution in the area toward
New York's many beaches as indicated by the drift
bottle phaae of the survey would also indicate reasons
for further study.
Further study of turbidity and the movements of con-
taminating slug8 of the National Lead Company wastes
are recommended. It appears from the survey that the
cohesiveness of these waste dumps is far more prolonged
than previously believed and if several such slugs of
turbidity are represented in the Bight at one time, the
effect may be reflected in fish movements.
The limited funds available for the survey also pre-
cluded a etudy of the movements of the pelagic game
fish in the New York Bight. This is, without doubt,
the one factor that is of the greatest interest to the
fisherman, A study of the movement of these fish, will,
in my opinion, disclose that some fishes will tend to
avoid the acid grounds due to its turbid and possible
toxic nature.
Now, there have been recent reports that a Connecticut
firm has been hired to dump unlimited quantities of
radioactive waste material in the Atlantic Ocean some
100 miles off Long Island.
In view of the recommendations of the Consulting Biol-
ogists of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and in view of
the increasing use of the ocean for dumping of wastes,
including radioactive waste materials potentially dan-
gerous to marine and human life, it is strongly urged
by the Sportsmen's Council that the U. S. Public Health
Service conduct, or cause to be conducted, an intensive
study of offshore disposal of all waste materials.
It is further recommended that the Sportsmen's Coyncil
of the Marine District of New York State be Invited
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28
to be represented at the proposed technical meeting
to be held at the Sanitary Engineering Center in
Cincinnati, Ohio in the near future for the purpose
of presenting at that meeting, the viewpoints of the
sportsmen of New York's Marine District regarding the
practice of offshore disposal of wastes.
I would like to say, if you have any questions regard-
ing the technical aspects of the surveys, Dr. Wurtz
of the Consulting Biologists is in the room, and I
would prefer that he answer any questions of that
nature.
I would like to present to Mr. Martin a copy of our
survey and also the copy of my talk.
MR. MARTIN; Thank you, sir.
Mr. Stein, we have Dr. Wurtz on the list to make a
statement and we might want to wait until he speaks
before you ask questions, or whatever you wish. He
will speak, he will be given an opportunity.
MR. STEIN: Yes, we can direct our questions to both of them.
May I make one comment before you sit down. I notice
you talked about apathy of public officials. Perhaps
the apathy of public officials, when you look into it,
may be the same problem you folks have with your sur-
vey. As an old~time bureaucrat, I may say that that's
a limiting factor, this lack of funds.
MR. MARTIN: Would you like to have Dr. Wurtz now?
MR. STEIN: Yes, If we could.
MR. MARTIN: Dr. Charles B. Wurtz, representing the Consulting
Biologists of Philadelphia.
DR. WURTZ: May I make a few introductory comments before any
questions come?
I have always been lead to believe that a public hear-
ing of this nature was an introductory thing, before
further studies were undertaken or further steps. I
sometimes had the feeling this afternoon that this
thing was going to appear in some legal journal as a
decision of an Appellate Court and I am a little bit
embarrassed.
It has now been somewhat more than a year since I last
worked in the field on the pollution problem of the New
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29
Vork Bight. Afc that tine, we were under contract
with the Sportsmen*8 Council of New York State, Mr.
Binner was President, Mr. Manns was the Chairman of
the Anti-Pollution Committee. The work that we did
and the report that was ultimately submitted to th6
Sportsmen's Council, was published by the Sportsmen's
Council. 1 do not know what size the edition was,
that is, how many copies of the report was prepared,
nor do I know what the distribution of that report
amounted to.
I do know that we got a half a dozen copies in our
office and the distribution of those, 1 know. I
know that the Sanitary Center of Cincinnati has a
copy of it, a copy to Bill Ingram as I knew that he
would be interested in it.
The work that we did was based on the theory that you
can't dump anything into the ocean without its having
some effect. However, we approached it purely from
the technical standpoint and the Sportsmen's Council
and the Freeport Boatmen's Association and the rest
of the people whose interest we were holding, held
that the National Lead Company, which was their big
argument at the time, was damaging the Bight.
Ue had to approach this and pointed out to them what
we did, that we would have to approach this in an
unbiased sense. That is, we would study it and what-
ever the data we got on the prevailing condition, that
would be the sum and substance of our report, and that
is the way our report was prepared.
Now, I would like to mention that as a result of that
study, I reviewed the report on the way up here in
the train earlier today, and there are two or three
things that I feel are very valid grounds for further
8tud>y. There are two or three things that I think are
damaging to the Bight and that are directly related to
the acid waste disposal of the National Lead Company.
At the same time, there are, perhaps not as much damage
as a lot of newspaper articles would claim. But now,
those two or three things that are brought out in this
report, are simply indications which are the result of
a very limited survey, because of limited time, lim-
ited funds and everything else, but the indications
are there, and they certainly should be considered.
Now, one of the things that Mr. Binner and Mr. Manns
both pointed out Is our inability to go into any
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30
expensive stuty. It becomes self-evident to any-
body associated with this type of work that it would
be a highly expensive thing to do. The funds were
not available for it.
Captain Marinaccio, when we first went into this sur-
vey , submitted to me a series of maps of the Bight
showing the deflection of migratory fishes, the blue
fish and the tuna away from their habitual grounds.
Now, when 1 prepared the report, I did mention that
we consider Captain Marinaccio a party of interest in
this thing, he was very antagonistic toward this
method of acid waste disposal. He feels that he is
proper in his attitude and his feelings would be
proper without that attitude also. So far as I know,
these are the only available data that actually reflect
fish movements in the New York Bight, subsequent to Che
initiation of acid waste disposal and I think they
should be given very weighty consideration by this
panel, the Public Health Service if we are going to
pursue this subject further.
Another item that I would like to mention is some-
thing that Mr. Manna brought out in his conversation,
to the effect that the toxic effects of this acid waste
disposal on plankton, without a doubt this stuff does
kill plankton. Now, you have to bear in mind that a
body of water with the magnitude of the Atlantic Ocean
is a terrific cushion to bounce against. You can dump
an awful lot of waste in it and perhaps not do any
damage, but I don't know how you can compute the num-
ber of dead plankters as opposed to the total popula-
tion and figure out a percentage of how much of the
kill you are getting.
That I don't know, but 1 do know that the subject is
more worthy of further study. Now, for example,
among those plankton are larvfel fish, that is fish so
young that they are still in the yolksac stage. I
don't know of any biologist that would undertake to
identify those fish down to the specific levels. I
don't know whether that's the larvel fish or the sea
larvae or sea bass or any other species. They may or
may not have economic value. They may have economic
value today and not a hundred years from now and the
reverse, of course, may be equally true.
1 just don't know what those fish larvae might be. I
don't know whether if you discontinued acid dumping
from one-tenth to one-twentieth, you would say it
would save SO percent of your sea bass population or
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31
whether you wouldn't. Those are the things I think
you should study.
Now, It is an unfortunate circumstance that marine
biology requires a great deal of study. As to what
the potential damage might be, I don't know. All you
can do is play with the few facts that you have, the
indications that you do have and the studies have to
be made.
I would be happy to answer questions if the panel has
any.
MR. DAPPERT: 1 would like to ask Dr. Wurtz this. In your
opening statement you made some reference to the
Appellate Court or something, and if you are looking
upon the panel up here at this table as being judges,
let me dissipate that.
Mr. Martin in his opening remarks to this group said
that this panel is simply to assist the Public Health
Service in the getting of what information we can to-
gether and evaluating it with the specific purpose:
1. Determining whether or not studies along the lines
you have been talking about should be undertaken as soon
as possible, and whether there is enough validity in
back of these complaints and that sort of thing.
DR. WURTZ: Based on what work 1 have done, at the expense and
instigation of the Sportsmen's Council, my own opinion
is that further work should be done; there are
grounds for it. 1 feel that the Atlantic States
Commission, is in a sense, perhaps, begging the ques-
tion by sitting around waiting for some public agency
such as the Fish and Wildlife Service or Fublic Health
Service or the New York Conservation Department, to
come out with a stronger, more elaborate study. I
think they are adopting an evasive tactic, that's a
personal opinion. I don't want to offend the Chairman
of it or anybody else in that respect.
1 also don't want to give the impression that 1 am
being biased in my support of the stand taken by the
Sportsmen's Council as to the stand taken by the
National Lead Company. My sympathies may be with
them, but the facts in my report must stand as they
are. The only thing I draw is from the data actually
gathered.
MR. DAFPERT; I would like to make one further comment. You
made reference to the data that Captain Marinaccio is
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32
going to present to us shortly. In my book, that
is actually the kind of factual data that is needed,
not just complaints because somebody imagines some-
thing, but factual data that will support and
validate those complaints. That's what we need.
DR. WURTZ: 1 would like to temper my remarks about the
Atlantic States Fisheries Commission. I think their
interests are inclined to follow those of the com-
mercial fisherman more than the sport fishermen.
1 may be in error about that, but I think that
basically is true. The commercial fishermen that I
have had occasion to deal with in the last IS or 20
years, they feel strongly about this as Mr. Manns
and Captain Marinaccio, and 1 also, at the same time
might point out, that 1 have spent more money personally
goiug to a seaside resort in New Jersey getting no fish
than I spent in five years buying fish on the market.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you very much, Dr. Wurtz.
Next, 1 am going to ask Mr. W. G. Bentley, Acting
Director of the New York Fish and Game Commission who is
here and wishes to present a statement. Vie have re-
ceived a statement from the Commissioner of the Con-
servation Department of New Yock State. Is Mr. Bentley
here to make a statement?
MR. BENTLEY: I am William G. Bentley, Acting District Director
of Fish and Game, the Marine District, New York State
Conservation Department.
Mr. Martin, the statement is the letter from the Com-
missioner of Conservation of the State of New York. I
have nothing additional to add to that, but I wanted
to read it to the group for their consideration; you
have copies for the record.
"Mr. Sylvan C. Martin, Sanitary Director, Department of
Health, Education and Welfare, 42 Broadway, New York 4,
New York. Dear Mr. Martin: This is in response to your
invitation to parties interested in offshore disposal
of waste materials to submit statements at the public
meeting to be held by the Public Health Service on
October 16, 1958 in New York City.
"We have been informed that one of the offshore dis-
posal problems involves the wastes of the National
Lead Company. It is our understanding that these par-
ticular wastes do not originate in New York State and
are not dumped in New York State waters.
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However, many boats and a great many fishermen
fishing out of New York ports regularly fish in or
near the waste disposal area. This department must
be concerned, therefore, if such dumping has any
effect on the fisheries of the area.
"We respectfully recommend that agencies having the
legal basis to do so make such studies as may be
required now and continue to make periodical exam-
inations of the area at such intervals as will
assure adequate scientific analyses of possible
effects which may exist or may accumulate or may be
created by changing conditions in the general area.
"This department is also concerned about the possible
effects of offchore waste dumping other than the
National Lead waste. Each case must be considered
separately in the light of the material to be dumped
and the area into which it is to be dumped. We
respectfully request that you continue your coopera-
tion in informing this department of all planned or
impending changes in offshore waste disposal practices
so that we may have the opportunity to consider pos-
sible effects on the fisheries and other natural
resources of interest to the State and its citizens.
Sincerely yours, Sharon J. Mauhs, Commissioner, Con-
servation Department, State of New York."
That's our statement.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Bentley. Are there any questions?
MR. RAPPERT: No, I have no questions.
MR. STEIN: Mr. Bentley, just one question. Recognizing this
as being outside your jurisdiction, do you have any
specific knowledge of reports as to fish damage what-
ever in this area?
MR. BENTLEY: No, sir. We have no records, no factual infor-
mation.
MR. STEIN: Thank you, Mr. Bentley. Mr. Martin?
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Bentley. I would like to call on
Mr. William Paulsen, Atlantic Coast Marine Sportsmen's
Association. (Not present)
Captain Carmine Marinaccio of the Freeport Boatmen's
Association.
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34
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Gentlemen, regarding Che New York Bight,
It is the experience of the fishermen that the fish*
ery of tuna and tuna-like species has been virtually
destroyed in the 400 square mile region north of the
line extending eastward from Asbury Park, New Jersey
and intersecting a line south of Jones Beach, Long
Island, New York.
We attribute this condition to the acid waste that
has been dumped here siuce 1948. It is our studied
observation that at any given time water heavily
discolored by acid wastes covers more thsn ISO square
miles and that 300 square miles of water is dis-
colored to a lesser degree, and that this polluted
water causes the tunas to avoid the outlying area.
We declare with alarm that in the 1958 season, the
best tuna year of the past 20, showed practically no
tunas crossing the abovementioned area, yet immediately
adjoining areas were particularly productive, and such
has been the case since 1948, the year the acid dumping
8tarted.
It is common knowledge that prior to 1948, the inner
New York Bight which iucludes the Mud Hole area was
the most noted tuna ground on the Atlantic Coast.
Notwithstanding the excellent catch of blue fish in
the Bight at times, may I explain that blues frequent
polluted water, as evidenced by the numbers being
caught in bays and harbors, the tunas have avoided con-
sistently the area outlined above. This fact causes
us to believe, without qualification, as you must, that
the acid wastes are distasteful to the tunas. This is
common knowledge, I might add, among the fishermen and
can be attested to by the many expert fishermen in-
volved whose testimony is acceptable as evidence in
any court of law.
The test tube type of evidence demanded by agencies
committed to act as referee in this dispute is unrea-
sonable, due to the many imponderable factors. Fur-
thermore, their insistence on the type of evidence
which is unobtainable is not only unjustified but it
leaves us no alternative but to believe that favorism
is being shown to dumpers, who according to law is the
burdened party. This biased attitude has left the
fishermen bewildered.
Continued acid dumping here is depriving the people
here of New York City, New Jersey, Long Island their
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35
most valuable fishing grounds. Moreover destruction
of the tuna fisherya in the area is not only an econ-
omic blow to waterfront communities, but also is im-
posing a tremendous hardship on the fishing fleets, a
hardship that may well prove disastrous within the
next few years.
On behalf of the thousands of people earning a liveli-
hood in the fishery and the millions more for whom
the New York Bight is the only available fishing area,
we hereby beseech you to request the Supervisor of
New York Harbor to stop the dumping of acid wastes
anywhere in the New York Bight within one hundred
miles of the shore.
MR, MARTIN: Thank you.
Do you have any questions?
MR. STBIN: What do you mean by the blue fish cycle? Do you
mean that these fish come in a cycle and then disappear
for years?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO; It has been the observation of people that
have kept records in the past that you have a series
of good years and a series of bad years for all types
of fish. Now, the blue fish have been on the decline
for the last two or three years. They reach a low
ebb, I'd say, each year for the last ten or twelve
years.
MR. STEIN; Your opinion is that this offshore dumping has had
no appreciable effect on the normal blue fish cycle?
CAPT&1N MARINACCIO; No, no, it hasn't been noticeable.
MR. STEIN; Now, certainly, let me ask you this. You do not
think that the effect on tuna is due to one of these
cycles?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO; Absolutely not. I can explain that fur-
ther if you wish. The reason is we had a series of
warmer winters and the point that the tuna reached
extended further north for a number of years and then
receded further south again. We had excellent, in all
that time, the fishermen from Atlantic City had excel-
lent tuna fish, the same as they did this year. The
fishing was excellent from Fire Island eastward and
at Mbntauk, but the year that the acid dumping started
was the year that the fishing-stopped, I mean stopped,
99 and a half percent in the Hud Hole area, and we
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36
have not caught any tuna fisb there at all.
MR. STEIN: While they have caught fish from Fire Island
on out and down south —
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Yes, south of Manasquan, I'd say, and
east of Fire Island, yes, sir. Whereas before that
time, the Mud Hole area the three ports, Manasquan,
Sheepshead Bay and Freeport.
MR. STEIN; Let me ask you, what kind of tuna fishing are the
folks engaged in, is it both charter fishing and com-
mercial fishing?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Sir, I mean charter boatmen particularly,
but I have in writing the support of practically every
fisherman that fishes for a living within New York.
MR. STEIN: Are there any commercial tuna fishermen who fish
the Mud Hole? Were there?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: 1 might explain, the charter fisherman
makes a living any way he can fishing. If he doesn't
have the party, he goes out and catches the fish,
makes a day's living by catching the fish. Boatmen
spend a day and a viight and successive days fishing
at the (Aid Hole.
MR. STEIN: I think we ell know from our general knowledge that
that'8 what charter fishermen do for a living. What
I was getting at, is — was there a commercial fish-
ing fleet which largely went on commercial fishing
and just did charter fishing on occasion or was the
tuna fishing in this area largely sports fishing and
charter fishing?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: You have to go a little deeper than that.
There was no commercial tuna fishing to speak of in the
whole Atlantic Oceau except in the last couple of years.
The Japanese started, I think, three or four years ago
and there's a little commercial tuna fishing in the
Gulf of Mexico at the present time, but there was no
extensive commercial tuna fishing anywhere in the
North Atlantic to my knowledge, previous to 1950.
MR. STEIN: Now, in the Mud Hole area that you speak of, about
how many charter fishing boats would you say were
seriously affected by this?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Well, the number of folks that fish there
altogether, I would say number a thousand. The charter
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37
boats, I would say, roughly 400. The open boats,
I would ask Mr. Martin, do you know?
CAPTAIN J. MARTIN: Well, there are 30 in Sheepshead Bay and
possibly 50 in the New York Bight area.
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Those 50 boats are larger boats. They
carry up to 150 people.
MR. STEIN: I don't think this goes to the basis of this sub-
ject, would you say the charter trips, the customers,
are less er less frequent because of the lack of tuna
fish? Would they be more if the tuna were there?
Let'8 rephrase it.
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: I would say our business suffered this
simmer by at least 30 percent. You've got to take
into consideration inflation and business cycles and
everything else, but if you took a level, say the
average boat made 150 trips a year and this year they
only averaged 95 or 105, I mean, that's the only
information I could give you. I would say that they
were affected.
MR. STEIN: Were you personally affected in your business?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Yes, I was.
MR. STEIN: Now, let me ask you one question, and this may be
difficult. How do you determine that the water is dis-
colored by the acid, in your observation?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: It's very simple. It's a dirty brown.
It*8 a dirty brown color.
MR. STEIN: What is the water normally or before they began
acid dumping?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: The water, I would say, when you get east
of Fire Island and south of Asbury Park, that close to
shore, it turns a blue green usually; I would say as
a general rule, blue green. You have a discharge from
the river which has a slightly brownish color, but it's
different than the acid. The acid Is more on the yel-
low side.
MR. STEIN: When you leave Freeport, you don't see this discol-
oration of the water near where you dock your boat, do
you?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: The closest I have seen it is at the
Whistle Buoy at Fire Island Inlet. That's three miles
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38
from shore.
MR. STEIN: Do you want to point out where you generally see
it and how far out that extends?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: At this point here, they start at this
point and they go six miles in this direction and
back in this direction. I don't think they dump
there even in the winter time. I always see them
over hsra.
MR. STEIN: Where do you see the discoloration?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: The discoloration — you've got to bear
in mind that the ocean is liquid and that this discol-
oration can move in any direction depending on the
currents, and I have seen it from this point to
Aabrose Lightship, just off shore of the Shrewsbury
Recks, just off shore of Sharp River Inlet and I have
seen it actually, bodies of it, patches of it, up to
40 miles off shore, tap to 40 miles off shore.
It is a complete misatatement, I wouldn't use the word,
that the acid waste is not seen after three hours.
Every fisherman in the area says that you can see one
dumping at least for three days.
MR. STEIN: You can distinguish, though, when you get into that
area. I assume you do the bulk of your fishing in this
area now, is that correct?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: All of it, yes, sir.
MR, STEIN: All of it. Have you caught many tuna in the last
few years?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Laot summer, I had one of the best tuna
years that I have had in 20.
MR. STEIN: Where did you catch that, right in this area?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: East of Fire Island.
MR. STEIN: Oh, you had to move east of Fire Island?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Yes, we had to go a longer distance, and
may I add that it has been practically impossible for
the boats from Sheepshead Bay to go out here; they
can't make it in one day. As far as Sheepshead Bay
is concerned, tuna fishery is non-existent. It has
been destroyed.
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39
MR, STEIN: ltoW m&iy tuna, have you or your parties caught
west of Fire Island when you have been in those
waters, in the area you have described as see-
ing the acid?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: You say how many tuna have I caught west?
Now, in my letter, I say south of Jones Beach.
MR. STEIN: South of Jones Beach.
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: I would say it is practically nil.
When we ride, we rids south, which is in this
direction, and ths closest that have been caught
this year is south, on rare occasions, from south
of Jones Inlet, that's been about the line, right
there. This mark where they have Cholera Banks is
not what the fishermen call Cholera Bonks. A few
that the boat caught were in the vicinity of the
Cholera Banks, which is south of Jones Inlet.
MR. STEIN: In order to give us a slight description of the
bus in-?.s8, generally how many people are taken on
a charter boat?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Well, the numberiof people that go on a
charter boat is gradually increased through the
years. There was a time when the average charter
boat carried four, five or six people, but today
we carry anywhere from six to thirty or forty.
MR. STEIN: What is the average cost to a person to go fishing
on this boat?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Roughly, fifteen dollars. It runs to fif-
teen or twenty dollars.
MR. DAPPSRT: You mentioned something to the effect that there
are other charter boatmen and so on, that kept
records that could substantiate all the observa-
tions and so on that you have given U3. Would it
be possible to get some of these records, people
that have kept records of the catch and the number
of trips and so on, in years before the dumping
began and the years afterwards, and something
about the —
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Mr. Dappert, I would like to go into that
just a little bit. A lot of these people that
operate charter boats are not the type where they
could get up and make a formal statement or keep
records that, you know, that would show anything,
but a fisherman that fishes for a living, the same
as an artist or any professional man or a doctor,
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40
he doesn't quick run into his files to see what
happened that year or what happened the other year.
A doctor looks at you, he looks at your eyes or
takes your pulse and he has a pretty general idea of
your physical condition. Now, these fishermen that I
am talking about are experts, they know v;here to fish
from day to day, hour to hour and year to year. 1
wouldn't lean on written and kept records. I would
lean, as any court would, on the opinion and observa-
tions of these lcsn and where they fish from day to
day and year to year and why they don't go to a cer-
tain area and how things have changed, lots of things
have changed.
You can't go by written records unless they can be
evaluated by fishermen are useless any!: aw.
MR. DAPPERT: I am thinking more in terms of this investiga-
tion leaning more towards the actual effects on marine
life and so on, and it would seem to me that if we give
great weight to the contention of the sportsmen and so
on, if you had soiae data that you could put your fin-
gers on —
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: I kept charts from 1950 to 1955. I kept
the data and every night when I got home I wrote on
the chart, and at the end of the year, 1 got all the
data together and 1 drew lines and everything else
and I sent them to the Supervisor of New York Harbor
and I sent them to Albany, I sent them to Washington
and as far as 1 know they were never recognized as
data. It is mighty disturbing.
I can make these charts up again.
MR. DAPPERT; Well, give them to me, not oo much in connection
with this inquiry here today, but later on, if there
is a comprehensive investigation undertaken, it would
seem to me that data of that kind would be very valu-
able in supporting the claim.
DR. WURT2: I have some charts, Mr. Deppert, which I would be
glad to lend to the panel, but I would like to have
them returned.
MR. MARTIN: If we can get them with no trouble to you, we
would certainly be glad to borrow them.
DR. WURTZ; I at one time extended to Dr. Ingram an invitation
to review them and that stands as long as this thing
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41
Is a matter of interest.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you very much.
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO; It is very unfair to ask a lobsterman
or a fisherman to present scientific data. It is
not fair at all, for agencies who are committed to
act as referees to say to a fisherman, "Can you
prove that a tuna fish was burned?" Can we put a
fish on the witness stand and ask him if he doesn't
like the mud hole? I mean what kind of evidence
will the people take?
MR, DAPPERT: I don't think any of us, I certainly wouldn't
ask a fisherman to come up with any scientific
evidence, but I think that records such as ycu have,
you've drawn some charts and so on, that's based on
observation, that is something you can put your fin-
ger on, and this man claims this is the effect.
Now, if we could have more of that kind of informa-
tion later, I think, if an investigation is carried
on, it is very strengthening, I think. No one expects
you boatmen to engage in any scientific studies
about this.
MR. STEIN: One last question. Do you say that the other mem-
bers of the Freeport Boatmen's Association and the
other people engaged in letting out charter boats in
Freeport share your opinion on this?
CAPTAIN MARINACCIO: Yes, sir. This letter was endorsed unan-
imously at a meeting held by the Freeport Boatmen's
Association. About two or three years ago, I sent a
letter that I addressed to President Eisenhower, not
that I expected him to read it, but 1 felt that 1 was
justified in writing to hita, and at that time 1 had
the support and endorsement of several hundred fisher-
men as to the work going on here.
If you wish at that time I had 3,000 printed at that
tiffle, and if you wish I will send you a copy of it,
with the names of all the captains that support me.
MR. STEIN: I would suggest that you send that to Mr. Martin.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Captain.
Next I would like to call on Mr. Mai Xavier, of the
National Fisheries institute.
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Mr. Xavier, do you have a statement that you wish tb
make, sir?
MR. XAVIER: I don't have a prepared statement. My remarks
are going to he very informal and impromptu. I
have heard the statements that hove teenlpresented.
First of all, I had better tell you who 1 am. 1 am
the Assistant General Manager of the National Fisheries
Institute, a commercial fisheries trade association,
composed of producers, processers and distributors of
fish and shellfish products.
The remarks I have heard so far, and I am not too
well acquainted with this problem, having had it
brought to my attention during this past week, indi-
cate that there is a great deal of work to do on
this problem of study and research. That's about
what I am going to take back to our officers and our
people in Washington, and that's just about all I
have.
I hope that this work will continue and that some-
thing concrete will come out of it.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Xavier.
Next I would like to call on Mr. Eugene F.
Moran, Jr., of the Moran Towing Company. Would you
care to make a statement, Mr. Moran?
MR. MORAH: Mr. Martin, I have here a prepared statement of
observations with reference to the past record, and
the statements of fact which the Public Health
Service can easily verify during your investigation.
In any large metropolitan area, there is always a
problem of disposing of waste in such a way as to
cause a minimum of public nuisance and Inconvenience.
To eliminate all such nuisance and inconveniences, is
almost impossible.
Point two, the volume of all such wastes produced in
the New York Metropolitan area is well over 25 million
tons. About half of this volume is organic, such as
garbage, refuse and so forth, which is either In-
cinerated or deposited ashore in unsightly fills.
The amount of waste deposited at sea consists princi-
pally of dredge material, excavations, brick bats and
building wreckage together with a small percentage of
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^3
Industrial wastes, there is also a substantial
tonnage of sevage deposited at sea which contributed
to the biological cycle.
All of this vaste material- either sinks to the
ocean floor or is fairly and quickly diffused with
sea water in the ratio . of one part of waste to
many thousands of parts of sea water. Tests of the
sea water, soon after depositing the waste material
have proven that this is the case, and such tests
are in your records.
After such final disposition of waste, and this is
a very important point, the waste ceases to be of any
further nuisance forever. The one big complaint of
waste disposal at sea is not against dredglngs,
excevatious and so forth, but against industrial
wastes. The formal claim that this type of waate
will kill fish or drive them away from their ac-
customed areas has been proven false by the ex-
perience of the last ten years.
It is in the record that the office of the Super-
visor designated the original area for industrial
wastes for disposal after consultation vith sports
fishermen and the fishing Industry.
An area was selected that in their opinion was at
least productive of good fishing. After a little
over a year of industrial waste disposal in the
first selected area, it was non-productive of good
fishing and an area was selected where very little
fish at the time had been caught.
After several further years of good iishing and a
third area, still further from the land was desig-
nated and that is the area that we are using today.
The fact that this third area became very productive
of good fishing after waste disposal in that area be-
came a regular operation is well known. It seems
obvious that instead of killing fish and driving them
away, it has a substantial attraction.
Point four, the main complaint about fishing in this
area is not that the industrial wastes is injurious
to fish or organic matter, but the presence of iron
oxides in the water for an hour or two after dumping.
This oxide precipitates out of the ocean when the
acid is more than neutralized by dilution and the
alkalinity of the sea water. The discoloration of
the fishing lines and hull paint is the last remaining
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point of complaint of the fishing group.
When it is considered that this area of discoloration
is a minor fraction of one percent of the fishable
area in the Bight and the former areas of industrial
vaste disposal are now free of such discolorations,
such complaints practically lose all of their va-
lidity.
It Is the claim that the acid acts as a repellent
to the fish. If that were so, there would be no
reason for these fishing vessels to enter the
turbid area of discoloration.
I requested the Public Health Service in this
present investigation explore the contribution to
the biological life cycle by the chemicals and
minerals in the wastes deposited at sea and by
the change in the ecology of the eres after
deposit on the bare ocean floor, of large and
small rock and earth and mud.
It has been found out through the years that
these deposits have promoted the growth of lush
underwater plant life and afforded a haven for
escape by the smaller fish from the large
predators in the openings between the rocks,
among the plant growth.
Mr. Jack Pulley of the Fish and Geme column In
the New York Journal American, after years of
strenuous objection to dumping acid at sea,
acknowledged the effect of this waste disposal
at sea on fishing, and publicly requested that
an experimental dumping sou&h of Jones Seech
of excavations and w£3i;e material be made.
Some scowloeds were so deposited about five
years ago and it has become well known, fishing
in this part is very much improved after only-
one deposit of about U,000 tons.
I would like to also point out with respect to
the effect of disposal in the ocean, in 193*+,
December 31st, we had to stop the dumping of
garbage and these of you in the fishing business
will know that from 1936 to 19^, there was no
blue fish south of Long Island in the New York
Bight at all. I know because I went out to try
to get them. There was another observation on
fish cycles. I fish the Great South Bay and I
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*5
know that today vith certain fish and the tide,
you can't pull them in fast enough, but if you go
hack there other times, same tides, same conditions,
no fish. But fishermen always like to claim that
the fact that they didn't catch fish on saiue reason
like pollution.
MR. MARTIN; Thank you, Mr. Moran.
MR. STEIN: Mr. Moran, would you wait Just a moment.
This is in the nature of a question and observation.
One thing has cosfusfcd me in hearing these reports
and that is the fact that some folks say fishing has
been Irreparably harmed and some say it has been
improved. I think I am beginning to see a bit of
light and see if I can be corrected on this.
I have heard today no positive statement or
allegation mede that the dumping of sludge has
deleteriously affected fish. I think also there
has been no statement the dumping of industrial
wastes affecting blue fish, that is, the blue fish
seem to go according to cycles, either they are
there or not.
However, there has been a statement made that
since the dumping of certain Industrial wastes,
noticeably acids, that tuna have disappeared. Now,
do you have anything in your experience, Mr. Moran,
to shed any light on that, or do you agree with
that statement?
MR. MORAN: I would like to make the observation, only in
the last ten or fifteen years since this acid has
been dumped, the fishing in Westport has been
terrific. The past few years it has been very bad
and this year they didn't catch a single tuna, and
they are thinking of giving up the international
tournament and that must be 500 miles away from
where we dump.
MR. STEIN: Well, there may be other reasons. We recog-
nize that.
MR. MORAN: There are reasons for these variations in the
fish catch, there is no question about that, but
to pinpoint them on this, it is just looking for
an excuse.
MR. STEIN: Tbat may be, but we have had the statement
here that tuna fishing has been good all around
here, from Jones Point out east and from
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1+6
Barnagat Light down south, and right in this areaj
which is coincident with sight observations of acid
discoloration and the knowledge that acid is being
dumped, now I just place that up as a situation, a
factual situation.
MR, MORAK: May I make a statement?
MR. STEIN: Yes.
MR. MORAN: Now, on that very point, I fish tuna from
Atlantic City all the way down to Montauk Point
and beyoud, they do come in cycles, some years they
are good and some years they are bad. Every ebb
tide, for six hours, twice a day, this terrifically
polluted New York Harbor — I am talking about the
inland waters where someone mentioned that the
coliform count was 17 times what it vas off the
Rockaway Coast, which is a measure of the ocean
water purity. For 12 hours, six hours a day, two
different periods, all of this pollution from
Albany all the way dosn, it is flushed out right
into this area where we are dumping, end no decent
self-respecting tuna will come near it. You never
could catch much tuna, except on the strength of
the flood tides, and there have been tuna caught
right in the acid dump. Vessels have gone right
in and caught them.
Tuna generally don't like the turbidity, it is
something that they don't understand. Acid doesn't
bother almost any Bpecies of fish. I would like
to correct the statement that was made before with
reference to Mr. Westman. It's in your record.
Mr. Westman stated that it was his opinion in
19^8 that the dumping of this acid h8d not only
no damaging effect on the fish, but it hed a
beneficial effect on come of them and he uses it
in the therapeutic treatment of fish with fungus
growth on their scales and dips them into 10 to
15 percent acid for 15 or 20 minutes at a time,
whereas the acid condition in the acid dumping area
doesn't exist for 30 seconds. It is immediately
neutralized within 30 seconds, that has been
proven and it is in your records.
MR. STEIN: Let me recapitulate this statement. It Is
your observation that tuna avoid the area mentioned
here because of the tremendous pollution losdfoeitgy-taken
out from the New York Metropolitan area during ebb
tide. However, they only find tuna over there during
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V7
flood tide*
Nov, I have tried to understand this. As I
understand the captain's statement, his contention
Is that tuna have not been here since 19W on ebb or
flood tides, in close near the acid dumping area.
MR, MORAN: This has been veil known, subject to the move of
the water*
There Is another thing, In addition to the pollution
that Is carried out on the stream flow, there is the
pollution by dumping dredgings and mud, which have
to go on all the time. You have to clean the harbor,
you can't let the harbor fill up. The excavations,
the rock and the brick and all that, they have a
measurable discoloration and they are only two or
three miles away from the acid grounds. The fi3h
don't like to go where there Is any turbidity,
they go around it, they go into Fire Island Inlet
and the fishing in Fire Island Inlet and the Great
South Bay has been the worst this year than I have
experienced in 25 years of fishing, and has nothing
to do with the acid dumping.
MR. STEIN: Thank you, Mr. Moran.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Moran.
I would like to call on Mr. Carlton H. Rose of the
National Lead Company, if he has anything to say*
The National Lead Company has submitted a statement
to us with a large file of material, and I am just
giving him en opportunity if he has anything he
would like to add.
MR. ROSE: My name is Carlton Rose, Public Relations of the
National Lead Company. I am sure that we are pleased
to cooperate In the study that is being made of the
dumping in the New York Bight.
We have furnished Mr. Martin with some detailed
Information of the present operations and I don't
think we have anything further to 8dd at this time.
However, if any more technical information is needed,
we would be pleased to furnish it.
MR. MARTIN; Thank you, sir.
Next I would like to call on Mr. Guy E. Griffin of
the Westchester City Department of Public Works.
MR. GRIFFIN: Mr. Martin, I do not have a written statement.
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ifQ
MR. MARTIN: Could you cone up front so that we can all hear
you a little better, air.
MR. GRIFFIN: Mr. Martin, gentlemen of the panel, gentlemen,
I am Guy Griffin, Deputy Commissioner of Public Works,
in charge of sewage in Westchester County, Hew York.
I do not have a written statement to give you but I
would like to make this oral statement, Westchester
County is interested in this dumping area, since
on the advice of our consulting engineers, we are
planning to dispose of digested sewage sludge and
have a plant under construction in this area.
Any change in the present regulations or location
of that area would certainly affect the cost to the
taxpayers of our county. I would like to present to
you for the record a copy of a paper which I de-
livered to the American Society of Civil Engineers
this morning, which shows economy for the county of
disposing digested sewage sludge in the sea, against
the cost, about four times, of incineration.
MR. MARTIN: ThBQk you very much. We will introduce this into
the record end make it a part of the record.
Next, I would like to call on Mr. Ferris Altherr,
representing J. Howard Smith, Inc.
MR. ALTHERR: I do not have any prepared statement.
Eowever, I think it should be brought to the
attention of this committee and this meeting that
there are other things other than the 8ports
fishermen and the food fishermen which are very
important.
In this area, there is a sizeable fish production
plant operated by the J. Howard Smith Company.
ThiB operation consists of reducing the fish to a
protein supplement which is used for poultry feed.
This operation is quite large and we talk about
our fish in millions.
Unfortunately I do not have any data to substanti-
ate the pollution problem one way or the other, but
I would feel that you people should realize that any
decision you may make on this would be most important
to a very large industry. We feel that any pollution
in the area may have an effect, the same effect of
this pollution on the fish life and the plankton life
should be continually surveyed by competent people.
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1*9
MR, MARTIN: Thank you, sir.
MR. DAPFERT: What areas are iriVtilved In addition to
Manhattan?
MR. ALTEERR; Sir, there is 6 plant at Fort Monmouth, New
Jersey and there is another plant in Long Island.
MR. DAPFERT; Where do the fish come from, what areas are
£he fish taken from?
MR. ALTHERR: The fish are taken from areas three or four
miles off shore, most any place at all.
MR. DAPFERT: Would that "be true in the vicinity of this
dumping area?
MR. ALTHERR: I am not too familiar with the e.:act location
of~the fish. We employ several airplanes to spot these
fish. Wherever they are, why the folks go out and
catch them, but generally speaking, they are three
or four miles off shore although they may be further
out.
MR. DAPFERT: Would you have any record of the areas where you
fish. Would it be available for study later on?
MR. ALTHERR: The fish and wildlife ere now engaged in an
expensive study on the habits of certain fish and
it is possible through the cooperation of that
agency to get some valuable data.
MR. SHAW: With reference to the supply, do you know if there
is any change?
MR. AUHERR: I don't actually know. I did not have
access to the record. However, this last season is
very fresh in my mind, it was very poor. I would
not attempt to say that it was because of pollution.
We are msirely thinking of the long-term effect of pol-
lution on fish, especially since the menhaden fish
live on plankton, and if any pollution would effect
the plankton, it could possibly do away with the
fishing industry in this area entirely, which has
happened to the sardines on the Pacific Coast.
However, they still do not knew why they disappeared.
We are very much concerned with this problem.
MR. SHAW: How long has your company been in this area?
MR. ALl'iitmR: Twenty or thirty years.
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56
MR. SHAW: Then you vould have available, probably, some
kind of a record to the supply of fish available
during that period, 1 suppose, If there had been
any major change.
MR. ALTHERR: I don't know what records are available.
The people to contact would be the management
of the company. But there are available records
that have been published on the overall catch of
menhaden and other food fish for the whole area,
which are issued by the Department of Agriculture,
I believe, each year.
MR. STEP?: You have no knowledge of complaints which have
reached you relating to any pollution in the area
causing discomfort or lack of good fishing, have
you?
MR. AUPHERR: No, factually, I have not. Fishing is good
and bad and I would not attempt to go into the pros
and cons of why you get firah one day and why you
don't. The observations that there are de&d plankton
and dead larvae ere most alarming to us in the indus-
try because the menhaden fish spawn all along the
coast and the larvae then drift by natural currents
to their grounds, if they do not have food availa-
ble immediately, they will perish with perhaps a
large segment of a rather large industry*
MRo STEIN: Thank-you, sir.
MRo MARTIN: Thank you, sir.
MR. KORAN: Can we have his name?
MRo ALTHERR: Mr. Altherr, A-L-T-H-E-R-R, from Port Monmouth.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Altherr.
Next, I would like to call on Mr. J. Martin, Jr.,
representing the Sheepshead Say Boat Owners.
Mr. Martin.
CAPT. J. MARTIN: Mr. Martin, gentlemen, I he- 2 no prepared
statement here with me, I have some record that migtt
be available. I have spent my whole life running a
fishing boat, I have worked night and day at this
business. Our boats run approximately 12 months a
year and we do know what is going on out in the ocean.
We represent approximately 30 boats in the Sheepshead
Bay Boat Owners Association. These boats are open
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51
party boats and although I am familiar with the
menhaden business and also the charter business,
I prefer to speak on the open party fishing boat
of which I am interested.
Several years ago, it vas about the first year
that they had started dumping the acid, end you
have designated it here by an arrow on this chart,
which I believe is quite incorrect* It should be
moved over possibly two to three miles in the
vicinity, (indicating)
This vicinity is what we call farms. Would you
like me to Just put a cross there? This ground of
farms has been known as SB's Rock. It was founded
by pilots, to my knowledge, about a century ago,
and it has always been after the first of the year,
around the first of January, it has always been a
tremendous cod fish ground.
Now, we stay with the fish on Cholera Banks or South
of Long Beach and Jones and we stay with these fish
and work right around and sort of winter in around
the farms and on the first year, also around the
farms — the farms is the rock formation, there are
rocks which you can fish up and are the size of four
or five pounds and possibly eight to ten inches in
diameter and they are flat and they are generally
much like worm eaten, so that the mussels and
other feed grasses, grow into these rocks.
How, when we fished there years ago, prior to the
Second World War, when one of our customers would
pull one of these rocks to the surface, they would
be loaded with email mussels and other marine
growths. Today, when you pull one to the surface,
it is entirely bare with the exception of a film
of brownish slims on it.
This brownish slime, we have never had analyzed
to my knowledge, I tried to, but it compares very
favorably with the brownish slime that we 38t
on our anchor cable when the acid stain drips down
by us.
Now, in the first year that they dumped in this
particular area, we had tremendous co
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52
wasn't Just j>ih point fishliig.
Well, they came down with these acid barged arid
started to dump and within a week to two weeks, the
fishing ceased on the farms, and farms has not
produced one decent mess of fish since, and that's
a good ten years ago.
On Seventeen Fathoms, which is the ground directly
north of the farms, and which is quite a famous
fishing ground, or was — you will have to excuse
me, 1 don't have my glasses — but it is approxi-
mately in this area, it has been a tremendous black
fish area for us, also it has been a great lobster
productive area.
Always, when you would drop down, you would catch
mussels, they would run in size, six or seven inches
long, tremendous mussels, and they always used to be
of a very deep black, coal black in color. Today,
when you pull up the piece of dumping or something
from the bottom, it is completely devoid of mussels,
occasionally you will catch a mussel and they seem
to have the very tiny ones, but they don't seem to
grow large, they stay small and then they seem to
disappear.
There have been any number of cases, I personally
have kept excellent records running my boat, my
father before me kept very good records, end our
records go back to practically 1915 end 1916,
right up to the present date. We don't run a
fly-by-night boat business, we spend a good deal
of money for equipment, loran, radar, for the
safety of our passengers, and also for the pin-
pointing of fish, and we have found that the
depreciation in the Seventeen Fathom area, both
of ground mussels and feed on the bottom, has
depreciated considerably since the acid dumping.
Now, as I understand it, you people have put
dumping into three classes, the waste, industrial
waste, the acid, number one, the second is rocks
and mud dumping and thirdly the sludge dumping.
My personal opinion is, and I share the rest of
the opinions of the boys in our business, that
the sludge is helpful to our fishing. I have
personally laid on Seventeen Fathoms, catching
black fish and had one of Mr. Moran's barges
come by with mud and rock in it and they would
dump it 50 to 60 feet away and it never hurt the
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53
fishing, not one single bit, but the acid is 6
different story.
The acid has started in this area and year by year,
it is a groving paralysis, it is definitely criminal.
It in growing and this area expands and expands and
expands with the nucleus in here. I heard you ask,
how do you know — we run blue fish trips at night
and we run through the acid water and you can hear it,
it doesn't even sound Ilk? a vessel going through
common sea water. Actually, the boat moves, it is
the sound of a wake, it's fantastic.
Another thing, in answer to the gentlemen with the
menhaden. Possibly, I shouldn't say that. When I
was a boy end years ago, menhaden fishermen fiched
from on top of the beach down at Bamagat right up
to Fire Island and every bit of their area was there
to fish in and It was not uncommon to see them any-
where end any place.
The only place thut I see them catching any fish
today is right in under the beach and the surf because
of this widening, ever-widening scope of the acid that
is set down upon us.
It has ruined one of our grounds. Many, many times,
you will lay, you will put your anchor out, the
fishing will be good, a little bit of a current
setting from the southwest would come up and you
6tart to see a discoloration of the water and lo
and behold your fishing stops and the fishing will
remain stopped until an adverse current comes in
and cleanses the ground and a new school of fish
work in on it.
One more thing, two years ago, right almost in the
center of the acid dumping, there was a lot of blue
fish seen and caught. On my boat, we were one of
those that caught these blue fish. We went into
this acid and it was as different in color as this
chair is to the floor, it was marked Just as
perfectly as could be.
We would lower cotton linee from the surface down and
possibly 60 feet down froa the boat, leave it there
four or five minutes and we would do this before we
would tell our passengers to go ahead end fish. We
would lower these lines down 3° to 50 feet and pull
them up and you could see where the acid stains
stopped on the cotton line, it would be brownish and
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5^
then white.
We would measure that and tell our passengers, fish
at 35 feet and when they did, they caught fish, Nov,
those fish that were caught were "brought in many,.
many times to the market, and by the time We got to
the dock, the blue fish had already turned white,
the pigment had gone right out of them, and the
market men, when we can't sell our fish to passengers
and so forth, the crews aboard of our boats, when we
tried to dispose of our fish and send them to the
market for shipping, these fish by the time they got
to the merket had started to decompose, they are
pure white almost, in color, and they are refused
entirely by the market men and the market men know
whet they are doing.
That's my story, thank you.
MR. DAPTERT: You indicated that for many, many years you
kept very accurate records. For this comprehensive
investigation, would you have records available that
would be available for us.
CAFT. J. MARTIN; sir, I have kept, when I say records, I
mean log books, the type of fishing that we have
done, the sea conditions, the weather conditions,
very often the water temperature and so forth.
Back a few years ago, I wrote a letter to the Daily
Mirror, in fact it was 1951 when there was a
controversy about this acid, and it was spoken of at
that time, that the water temperature — might I read
a paragraph?
This letter 1 wrote to the New York Journal American
and the Mirror in 1951* and to quote a paragraph:
"Seventeen Fathom fishing grounds ha? "been noted for
its good black fishing for many, many years. In the
month of October, generally, it is best. The black
fish come in early in the fall and stay throughout
the winter. On Saturday, the 13th of October, 1951*
we were fishing there and the blacks were biting
reasonably good.
We were anchored and there was a light easterly
breeze, small wind sea and a very light current
from the southeast» Our depth reporting machine
showed good fishing conditions on the bottom.
Shortly after neon, I noticed a stream of acid
water settling down upon us, caused by the light
current from the southeast.
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5$
This was the first opportunity that I had to
observe first hand vhat vould happen. I immedi-
ately took temperatures of both the bottom and
the surface waters, I did this both before and
after the acid stream descended upon us, and I
noticed no appreciable change of vater temperature,
thereby ruling out the chance of a cold water stream.
I left the recording machine on and as the acid
stream flowed down upon us, the feeding conditions
that were shown on the bottom seemed to disintegrate
leaving no life visible in the recording. When this
happened, our fishing was over and we did not catch
another fish and had to move out of the area in
order to try and locate fish somewhere else."
And the men in our organization have many, many
such instances.
MR. DAPPERT: I would like to make this comment, that I
think that is exactly the kind of factual in-
formation that this panel needs, locations and so
on.
MR. STEIN; Did you ever go tuna fiBhing?
CAPT. J. MARTIN; Yes, sir.
MR. STEIN: Do you do that any more?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: I caught the first tuna fish that was ever
caught in Sheepshead Bay. We say north of Ambrose
Lightship Is the Ambrose Lightship Ridge, and it is
a lump that sticks up to about 40 feet from the
surface, surrounded by deep water. In the fall, I
think, of 1931, we were fishing there with some
passengers and we saw these tuna swimming around us.
Prior to that time, I don't believe a fish had been
brought into New York or into our locality of
Sheepshead Bay by handline.
We got thinking about it on the way in, we picked
up some bait and without passengers, just the crew
of the boat end we went back out and we had no more
thrown the line in the water with a big chunk of
mackerel on it, we caught the tuna, it was 300 and
some pounds.
Since that time, Ambrose Lightship grounds,
Seventeen Fathoms, these men speak of the Mud Hole,
and to me that*a not quite pinpointed enough for
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56
locations, it was Seventeen Fathoms, it was one of
the greatest feeding grouhds that ve have known in
this New York area.
These tuna vould be around there, and they were
there after the war, the first year after the war,
19^6, we again took one of our boeta out on Just
a little private expedition and I think eight men
aboard, something like 90 tuna in an hour er so
before sunset.
MR, STEIN: You don't catch tuna anymore?
CAPT, J. M&RTIfl: Tuna are not anywhere around.
MRo STBIN: You have no indication, do you, on the basis of
your opinion, have you; that the pollution has
affected tuna or acid dumping has affected tuna,
or tiiis was something which wasn't too regular in
that area anyway, and they may have disappeared.
CAPTo Ja MARTIN: It iB quite obvious to me that the ecid
has stopped any chance of catching tuna in that
area or any area where the acid is. It also has
stopped any chance of mackeral in that area or any
possible chance of menhaden in that area.
MR0 ff.roiN; That extends over the area you call Seventeen
"" Fathoms, is that correct?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: You mean, the —
MR» STSpf: What I am trying to get at is you mentioned
cod fish, blue fish, black fish and tuna and
several other fish ycu caught in certain areas.
Do you have to avoid those areas now in catching
those fish?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: No, no, we catch black fish on Seventeen
Fathoms, we caught them there yesterday, but the
first tims that we get a current from 'bhe direction
of the acid, or a heavy storm, it will Just kill
the fishing there and then the fish won't come back
there until there is en adverse current which seems
to cleanse that particular ground.
MR. STEIN: In other words, you are catching about the same
variety of fish that you have caught in the past,
except when, as you sey, a current of acid comes
in, the fishing is gone for a while until it is
cleaned back.
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57
CAFT. J. MARTIN: Yes and no. This acid has started in a
small area, the dump. Now through the years of
washing and expansion and more acid, our area for
catching fish is practically finished. If we would
catch, maybe, a mess of fish in one place one dby,
and I 8ay a mess of fish, we pick a half a dozen
finh, and then it would he over. Thr.i>e huge
quantities that used to show up and stay and remain
in this area, it is non-exi6tent now.
MR. STEIN: Let me try to pinpoint this, to your "business,
how does this affect you? Do you have to avoid
certain areas, use more effort and more gasoline
to get fish, hove less customers? How does this
affect your operation?
CAgT» Ja MARTIN; Well in a month to month operation, in the
winter"~months it has hurt us tremendously.
MR« STEIN: How does it do that? Specifically, if you can --
CAFT. J, MftRTIN: Well, when we catch fish, we carry people
and when we don't catch fish, there are Just a few
people that will come down, sort of give us an
existence, they went to get out of the house, hut
the money that is to be made in our business is
through greet companies of fishermen wanting to go
fishing, not the stragglers, the diehards, the
persons that will never give up thinking that maybe
today we will catch them*
Through January, February and March, most of our
boats are forced to tie up at the dock whereas
before we enjoyed a good business with the exception
of extremely cold winters or extremely cold spells.
March and April have always been slightly slow for
us, no matter what the fishing conditions were
and generally, years ego in May, these schools,
these tremendous schools of mackeral would come
up and I have seen Mays that have been as big a
month as ve have had at any time of the year.
People were most enthusiastic about catching.
MR. STEIN: Now, you do not get them.
CAPT. J. MRTIN: Now, we absolutely do not have a mackeral
run in the spring.
MR. STEIN: Okay, now let's go back to the winter. What
don't you have in the winter in terms of fish
which make people not come? During the winter
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58
months, December, January and February> It has been
relatively slow, but you say people will come but
if there is news that the fish are running. lis that
because you cannot find locations during the winter
to catch fish?
CAPT. J, MARTIN: Possibly I did not make myself clear•
In January, February and March, we used to enjoy
thin tremendous cod fishing in and around the farms.
MR, STEIN: Is that there any more?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: No, it i3 absolutely not available.
MR. STEIN; What is it that is not available, in your
opinion?
CAPTo J. MARTIN: Because of the acid dumping.
MRo STEIN: And you think that's gone as far west as the
farms to affect the bottom life there?
CAPT. J. MRTIN: I'm very sorry, I didn't get your name,
sir.
MR. STEIN: My name is Stein.
CAPT. J. MARTIN: Mr. Stein, I am very sorry you don't have
this chart so you can see it.
\
MR. STEIN: I can see it, go right ahead.
CAPT'o J. MARTIN: Can you see it?
MRo STEIN: Yes,
CAPT. J. MARTIN: This area is where they first dumped, the
farms area is where they first started to dump the
acid. They have a dump there and to my knowledge,
it is seven or eight years, and still that ground has
never produced since, and they only dumped there one
year, one or possibly two years, to my knowledge,
but that ground has not produced since.
MR. STEIN: Where are they dumping now?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: They are dumping off in this area so if we
are fishing in this area and a dredge works down,
why it hurts us, but from here through, this used
to be sort of o winter haven for the fish, and it
is absolutely non-existent to us now.
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59
The only type, fcf.fifeii we cetch now are the fish
inshore off Sctit lis lift Lightship and they are up
in here. The cod rish are gone. When thgy leave
our Bights, ve don't see them again, but they do,
I understand, see traces of them down wound Cape
May and quite a bit to the south.
MR. STEIN: How about the mackerel fishing* Ydu 4ay that's
gone tod?
CAFT. J. MARTIN: Yes, sir, that's gone. The spring run of
mackeral, they usually work up on about a hundred
foot curve, that would be in this area here. Now,
this would be about the curve. You can see this
dotted line coming down. As it gets down here, it
gets smaller.
Now, we used to run down in May, we would run
down east and southeast of Belmar and ilanasquan in
approximately this location. These would be the
first wave. It is our belief that these mackeral
work much like the geese and the ducks fly, end
that they come up in about a hundred feet depth of
water, and they work in along here and Just about
get up into here, where this hundred foot curve
comes from Long Island Coast, this is what we used
to call Glacamora and it was a tremendous area for
tuna, blue fish and the macks.
In the spring run of the macks, when we would stay
with these schools of mackeral, as they would move
along and come up and go through here — we don't
see them any more. The only mackeral we do see are
tho.3e that are fringed up in approximately this
section and that*a just about where they have been
this year, right in the blue section, or up in
through here, this ha3 been very productive with
macksral and as you get out here, then they seem
to work out and get down quite a bit.
In fact, Tom caught tuna this year and every tuna
was loaded with mackerel, they were feeding on them.
So this area here, this Over-expanding acid area
has pushed and narrowed our grounds down so that
now our fishing — our sea bass and porgy fishing
is the same way, we catch them up in under the
beach.
MR. STEIN: Okay, let as say — the mackeral, you said,
came January, February, March and May, is that so?
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CAPT. J. MARTIN: Approximately May is our mackeral month,
I
MR. STEIN: What comes after that?
CAFTo «T, MARTIN: Then we catch sea bass, porgies and blue
fish.
MR, STEIN: For the rest of the year,
CAET, Jc MARTIN: For the rest of the summer,
~	until-about this time of the year.
MRe STEIN: For the rest of the summer. Now, has this acid
dumping affected that?
CAFTo J. M\FTIN: It has not affected the sea bass, porgies
antf fluir.s to any great extent, because they arc rock
and great inshore feeders. They come up in here
to spawn in the bays,
MRo STEIN: Now, at this time of the year, what have you been
catching?
CAFTf, J, MARTINS We are catching black fish now, we are
catching them in along the beach and out as far as
Seventeen Fathoms,
MRe STEIN: Has it any affect on the black fish, in your
opinion?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: The black fish, yes, They are by far not
gSeat in numbers, but you see, with this acid
condition off here and should this current start to
pai'h it in, when it does we just don't even bother
golag to this location any more, we fish in here.
MR„ STEIN: Is there anything other than black fish up to
the end of the year?
CAPT. J, Mi\RTIN:	For us?
MR. STEIN: Yes0
CAPT. J. MARTIN:	The cod fish should come in within
the next	two or three weeks.
MR. STEIN: But you said that the cod fish don't come
in any more.
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CAPT. Jo MARTIN: Oh, no, I said that the cod fish do
not come in at the forms and Seventeen Fathoms,
but they certainly come in at Cholera Banks,
that's a tremendous area.
MR. STEIN: Now is it actually detrimental to you and
more expensive to fish in Cholera Banks as an
alternative, rather than the farms?
CAPTo J. MARTIN: This is a heritage that I believe
hasTTieen going oa for centuries, that these
cod fish worked from jfaufcucket right on down
arul wintered here in the New York Bight„ They
always have. This Cholera Banks area, it iB
rigirfc abeus here and these fish come down and
they coiae down in hugs waves, in millions
and millions. They cover every little feeding
spot all along the beach, but because the
Cholera Banks is a lerge rock formation, the
greater number is there.
MR. STEIN: Let me ask you the question, why aid you
on occasion take your customers to the farms
for cod fish, rather than Cholera Banks?
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CAPT. J. MARTIN: After the first of the year; these fish
come in - maybe I could explain it this w6y, on a
timetable - they ate dt Montauk now we know, and vi
toe starting to see strays here, so that the 15th of
November to the end of December, they are in this area,
and it is pretty close to a timetable.
This is where we fish. Now, after Christmas, it seems
like the first real cold spell or the water condition
gets lower, these fish leave Cholera, they always have,
and Cholera Basks becomes as dead as can he and the
fish used to work around and this would be the area
that we would catch them.
MR. STEIN: Around January?
CAfTc J. Mft'flTIN: That's right.
MR. STiSIN: Now, where do the fish go?
CAPT. J. MARTIN: We have no idea.
MR. STEIN: Thank you very much. That's been very helpful.
MR. MARTIN: We Jiave four speakers left, and this is running
a little bit longer than I had anticipated. I wonder
if wc can otand up and stretch our legs a little bit.
(Whereupon a short recess was taken.)
MR. MARTIN: Can we continue now? We still have four people who
wish to speak. Can we get started? Would you please
resume your seats?
Nesrfe, I would like to call on Mr. Leslie E. West,
representing ttrs Joint Meeting of the Municipalities
in Essex and Union Counties, New Jersey. Mr. West.
MR. WEST: Mr. Chairman, I am sure my remarks won't take up
much time. We were apprehensive when this meeting
was called of what might be the effects on the re-
location of tho dumping grounds at sea from an
economic: aapsct in connection with the costs of
waste disposal.
Looking back over a period of 20 years, in fact it was
just 20 years ago that an order was issued to change
the dumping grounds to a point further at sea, and
because no studies had been made of this area, to de-
termine Just what the effects of the sludge discharge
were, the study which was previously referred to by
the statement by the City of New York, was instituted
and we participated in that study.
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63
The conclusions at that iiihe> perhaps, may still toe
valid, that ve do not know . but ve in New Jersey
who are represented in this joint combination of
approximately a half million people, and we have
been discharging our sludge at sea since 1937> are
interested in this and we pledge our cooperation to
you in your efforts to determine the true state of
facts regarding sewage sludge discharge.
We are rather encouraged by the statements made thus
far that we are not culprits and perhaps may be in
the guise of benefactors. Thank you very much.
MR. MARTIN: Next, we have Mr. Thomas Glenn, Director and
Chief Engineer of the Interstate Sanitation Commission.
Do you have any statement that you would like to make?
MR. GLTCNN: No, I have no statement to make at this time, but
any information that the Commission has, we would be glad
to furnish it to you.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, sir.
Next, I would like to call on Mr. M. L. Klegerman,
¦ representing the consulting engineering firm serving
the Linden-Roselle Sewerage Authority. Mr. Klegerman
represents Alexander Potter Associates, who are con-
sulting engineers for the Linden-Roselle Sewerage
Authority.
MR. KLEGERMAN: I feel the fact that the statement has been
made this afternoon that sludge is helpful to fishing,
perhaps we can reduce these remarks and say it is
the first nice thing I have heard said about any
form of sewage disposal.
The Linden-Roselle Sewerage Authority operates a
sewage treatment and disposal facility located in
the City of Linden which serves an area which is
coterminus with the boundaries of the City of Linden
and the Borough of Roselle.
Now then, the Roselle Sewerage Authority also pro-
vides service for the Rahway Valley Sewerage
Authority, the latter authority serves the following
communities in New Jersey: Springfield, Elnwood,
Roselle, Roselle Park, Mansford, Westfield, Rahway,
and part of Woodbridge Township.
The approximate populations served by these authorities
are 68,000 in the case of Linden-Roselle and lU0,000
in the case of the Rahway Valley, making a total of
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&
208,000. Sewage in both instances, is stored and
concentrated and barged to sea for disposal at ap-
proximately monthly intervals. Sludge from the
Linden-Roeelle facility is undigested. Sludge from
the Rahway Valley facility is partly digested.
Sludge from the Rahway Valley installation is
pumped to Linden for storage and concentration
and barge loading. The disposal area is familiar to you
and I won't repeat this portion of the statement.
Q^he concentration of the sludge varies from about
8-1/2 to 9-1/2 percent. During 1956 and 1957> the
following quantities of sludge were disposed of.
On a dry basis, 4,400 tons for 1956,and 1957* 4,200
tens. On a wet basis, about 51*000 tons in 56 and.
about 44,000 tons in '57. The sludge dumping trends
are related somewhat to the population growth and to
the industrial activities in the area.
That is the written statement which we submitted and
perhaps one or two other little comments which have
occurred from listening here this afternoon might
be in order.
We are fsmiliar with the survey of the dumping area
reported by Mr. O'Leary and in fact, participated
to some extent in the early ones which he indicated.
In light of the findings of these surveys, the
Sewerage Authority that I represent considered that
the practice of sludge disposal at sea as proper.
The methods of sludge disposal applicable to this
particular area were thoroughly investigated and
that method in light of the findings of the survey
and from an economic consideration were found to be
superior to any other applicable methods.
Of course, it goes without saying that the Authority
will really welcome this particular investigation and
will cooperate in any way it can to properly evaluate
the practice in the light of the current issues.
Thank you,
MR. MARTIN; Thank you.
Next, I would like to call on Mr. Dudley Smith,
representing the Atlantic Coast Marine Sportsmen's
Association.
MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Martin. I came here today more or
less in the role of an observer. I think before I
say anything now, I should introduce myself. I am
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65
president of the Atlantic Coast Marine Sportsmen's
Association, which consists of 885 registered; clubs
along ten states on the Atlentic Coast and liter ally-
hundreds of additional clubs that compose the various
kffiliate groups that are part of the coast organization,
groups such as those you heard from today, the Long
Island League of Salt Water Sportsmen, the Massachusetts
Alliance of Salt Water Clubs and so forth, up and
down the entire coast. .
In our association, we have received registration
of complaints against this dumping for some time,.
The association has undertaken to maintain a sane
position on this, and I use the word advisedly, because
in the past, prior to our organization, I have heard
many comments that were practical3.y insane, in opposition
to this National Lead Company dumping.
For instance, I can recall a case that a person
wishing to make a case against the National Lead
Company brought into my Chamber of Commerce office
in Point Pleasant an actual sample of the waste
product taken from the outflow ditch that ran
across the marshland at Sayreville, prior to the
time that they were starting to dump it in the ocean,
which of course, only damages their particular point,
they are trying to make.
But our association feels that this is a Federal
affair. We do not feel that the burden of proof
should rest with any one individual state, even
if it is a water, in waters that are adjacent to
the two states of New York and New Jersey, Because
of the very nature of the fish that we are seeking
migratory in the main part, we feel that it is a
Federal proposition, that it should be undertaken
by Federal authorities with a complete exhaustive
survey.
The work that Mr. Manns and his group have done,
we think is a laudatory movement. We compliment
his group on undertaking that work and the Marine
District Sportsmen's Council for undertaking their
work and taking their money and doing this.
However, we feel that this has wide-reaching import,
both from the vast sport fishing industry and ft am
the tremendous ecomamic factors involved in commercial
fishing. We feel that it affects all the states
along the coast, all the sportsmen, affects all the
economy of the coast and,therefore, the work should
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66
be undertaken by the Federal Government and our
Atlantic Coast Marine Sportsmen's Association would
like to urge that this council that is hearing this
subject today consider, seriously consider, recom-
mending Federal action on a large scale, on a strong
exhaustive study of this, because we feel the economy
of Point Pleasant, New Jersey, the economy of Atlantic
Highlands, of Newport, of Ereeport, of Sheepshead,
it is felt in Connecticut, it is felt in Pennsylvania,
it is felt all up and down the coast, and. that there-
fore, this is a federal problem, and until we can prove
it, a hundred percent prove it wrong, or a hundred
percent prove it right, I don't think that anybody can
sit back and say, well, let's wait and see what happens.
That's our position, gentlemen. Thank you.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you.
JUow, I would like to call on Dr. A. H. Under hill,
"^Director of New Jarsey Division of Fish and Game.
ER. UNDERgiLL: Mr. Martin, members of the panel, gentlemen.
I don't have a written statement, but I would like to
put a couple of things into the record, as far as the
position of the Fish and Game, in connection with the
study that you are considaring.
As I am sure you realize, we are the agency charged
with the administration and management of the fin
fish resources within the territorial limits of
New Jersey. Much of this area is, of course, beyond
the territorial limits of New Jersey, but nevertheless,
fish don't recognize this and the whole New York Bight
area is very much inter-related from a fisheries point
of view.
I am sure that you are aware that it is one of the
most important fisheries areas in the world, both from
a sport and a commercial point of view, and one of
the most heavily utilized. We, from the very nature
of our funds, have never been in a position to make
as exhaustive a study as we would like of some of the
conditions there and again, it is difficult far a state
agency to tackle the problem of the magnitude here,
particularly when it does not have jurisdiction over
much of the territory.
We do feel that this problem of waste disposal,
particularly waste disposal at sea, needs a careful
review and a continuing study. Comments have been
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madd on the action of digested sluige and in general,
of coursej as long as it is organic material, it
does to a large extent, constitute fertilizer which,
adds to the productivity of the area.
But I am sure you gentlemen realize that as our
economy changes, as various types of industrial
products are developed, many of them are going into
these tank sewers and sewer projects and particularly
as we go into the atomic age, there is a strong pos-
sibility that there will "be substances in this digested
sludge which can have a very marked effect upon the
ecology of the area where they are dumped, and we feel
that a continuing study of this is important if we are
to preserve the resources here. The same is true of
the dumping of industrial wastes.
We have followed carefully the work that's been done
by the Fish and Wildlife Service, by Woods Hole, by
the Philadelphia Consultants, on the Rational Lead
dumping. We are keeping in close touch with work
that is still being done on the effect of that, and
to date we do not have evidence conclusive one way
or the other as to the effect of that dumping upon
the fisheries.
There is indication that some type of fishery is
improved. There is indication that others are
hurt, but we don't have conclusive scientific
evidence on that subject.
I would urge in this study that if at all possible
that it be made cooperatively with t^e Fish and
Wildlife Service, because I think that marine
ecologists are essential to properly evaluate the
effect of any of this type of material being disposed
of at sea, and we would pledge our cooperation, our
records and any of our personnel that would help
in such a study and would strongly urge that euch
a study be made.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Dr. Under hill.
I might say in line with that, and I am sure I can
say for the Public Health Service, that the Public
Health Service will not only welcome, but will also
solicit all the assistance we can get from the Fish
and Wildlife Service and from all of the state
agencies that may have information and technical
assistance and skill and brains and everything else
that ye can get into the problem, because we feel
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that We jieled all the combifaed efforts that we can
get to try to do the best job possible in evaluating
this situation and coming up with suggestions,
and, if possible, writing recommendations.
I have nobody else on my list. Does anybody else
have a statement that they wish to make who might
have been inadvertently missed on the list? Dr. Wurtz?
DR. WURTZ: I wonder if Mr. Rose's comments that he submitted to
the panel are too lengthy to be read.
MR. MARTIN: I haven't looked at them, or I could tell you,
Dr. Wurtz. I was going to say this: I want all of
you to know that what has been said here this after-
noon will be developed in a stenographic transcript.
I em not going to promise everybody a copy of that
because I don't know how long it is going to be and
what it is going to cost to reproduce it and so on,
but I can make this statement and I will make it,
that all the material which has been presented here
this afternoon, including the exhibits which were not
read, will be available for any citizen who wishes
to examine them in my office. If the time you
happen to come in this material happer.3 to be in the
hands of Cincinnati or somebody else examining, we
will make arrangements to either get a copy of it or
make it available in our office, so it will be avail-
able to whoever wishes to sit down and peruse it at
whatever length that they want to.
We do not have additional copies of this but I am
sure that if any interested person or group has a
desire for some information in it, we will cooperate
to the extent we can to make that available to you.
MR. DUDLEY SMITH; JUst as an afterthought, the possibility
that a group such as our association might be valuable
in accumulating some of the personal observations
and information and data that this panel suggested
would be valuable if they have suggestions as to how
and why and what manner that should be accumulated,
I'm quite sure that our various clubs in the groups
would be pleased to undertake that cooperation because
we are seeking an answer to this too. It is of vital
concern to all of us.
MR. MARTIN: We certainly appreciate it and we will try to do
that.
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'	1	>
MR. RIDLEY SMITH: You can let me know and I would "be glad
to pass it along to all the organizations. We have
a meeting coming up in November where it could be
proposed too.
MR. MARTIN; Fine. Thank you, Mr. Sndth.
DR. UNTERFTT.t.» Mr. Martin, just one other thing. Some of
the questions that were raised earlier about the
volume of the menhaden catch, the volume of the com-
mercial catch and to some extent, the volume of the
sport fishery boats. We have some of that data avail-
able and a considerable , amount of it is available
from the Pish and Wildlife Service. Some of it ac-
cumulated cooperatively and some independent service.
We will be happy to make it available.
MR. MARTIN; Thank you, Dr. Under hill.
I have a few additional statements which I would wish
to present into the record. One is a statement from
S. A. Beck, Chief Engineer of Passaic Valley Sewerage
Commission. Another one is a statement by Mr.
C. A. Leidecker, Executive Director of Middlesex
County Sewerage Authority, and the third is a state-
ment by Capt. J. G. Dodd of the U. S. Navy, made by
direction of the Commandant of the Fifth Naval
District. I would like to make those a part of the
record.
Mr. Stein, do you have anything you wish to add?
MR. STEIN; No - except we may deal with Mr. Smith's state-
ment right now as this is to the benefit of everyone
else. I think what we - that the group and Mr. Martin
would like to receive is a very concise statement
based on personal observation, personal experience,
not hearsay, what people's experiences are, and
please just limit that and I think you would not
need more than a paragraph or two or three, one
listing the name and the address of the person and
secondly, say what his experiences were in fishing
in the area - as sort of a counterpart, I think we
might take Mr. Martin's statement and Capt. Marinaccio's
statement as to their actual experience, where they happen,
when they happen and how.
MR. SMITH: I believe, in effect, other than the copy of the
invitation of this hearing, but I think that the
factual and pertinent information was used, and also
supportable facts were used, I think, in the invitation.
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MR. STEIN: That's right.
MR* SMITH: Now the question in my mind is will these opinions
"be given credence if they are unsupported by documentation?
MR; DAPEERT: I would like to answer that. If ve can have
statements along the lines of those cited "by Mr. Martin,
that are clear to me are "based on a very personal de-
tailed knowledge, they are certainly to be given weight.
MR. SMITH: Yes, but Mr. Martin.,said that he could sub-
stantiate and document these things through his log.
It is quite possible that the vast amount of material
that our association might gather might not be sup-
portable by documentation.
MR. DAi^J-tT: It is not needed at this time, but later on
if there is a comprehensive investigation of this,
then I think the .investigator would want to plough
into records, such as evidently he has available, to
produce the supportive evidence so tuat when you come
out with the reports, you have something you can stand
on.
MR. SMITH: The reason I raised that point, sir, is that I did
not want to undertake a work among thousands of sports
fishermen and then not have it given credence or accept-
ance by the investigating authority. I don't want to
undertake a lot of work by all the members for nothing.
MR. SHE IN: No, as a matter of fact, you might want to
evaluate that, if there is experience duplicating
itself.
I might tell you one technique we use, but certainly
you would not want to use this, but this is the com-
parison you can make.
We have found that when people give us an affidavit,
they generally give a pretty factual statement. I
don't think you have to go to that direction. People
realize that this is going to be taken down and
tabulated and you may get a whole sportsmen's
group which has the same experience, and that is
going to be investigated, and it will if proven not
to be verifiable, it will hurt rather than help the
cause. I think you can get this down to a reasonable
situation.
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71
I think that is precisely what we have here "because
in the past, in my experience - and I am sure in
Mr. Martin's experience in this - there have "been
many charges and countercharges flying around. Again,
in the statements made here today, a relatively clear
and factual picture was presented and that's what
always happens when you try to put it down on paper.
MR. SMITH: I'm thinking perhaps that the investigative
authority must "be interested in certain statements
such as are found in a whole town where the people
are tuna fishing and are complaining "because they
have to run three, four and five hours off the beach
to find tuna, when before they used to be able to .
come out at Manas quan Inlet and shoot right up to the
productive areas. The charter boatmen are making less
money even though they are collecting more. Those are
the complaints„
MR. STEIN: You are right, those are the complaints. May I
make this one point, and I don't want to push this
too far. If they have experienced it themselves
and not heard that someone has told someone who has
told someone that this has happened, now that is the
point.
If they, either a fisherman or a charter boatman,
and they say this, that this is their own personal
experience, that's what we want.
MR. MARTIN: I want to thank all of you people for coming here
this afternoon. I think I would be older than I look
if I didn't acknowledge with gratitude the presence of
our lady friend here this afternoon. I think she has
added a certain improvement to the looks of things.
A LADY: I have enjoyed it.
MR. MARTIN: I want to announce again the fact that we will
recess this hearing now. We will resume it at 8:00 P.M.
this evening in this room, and all of you who wish to
come are heartily invited to attend.
Thank you very much for your cooperation.
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72
EVENING SESSION - 8:15 P.M.
MEU MARTIN: Gentlemen? I would like to reconvene this public
meeting with regard to the dumping of waste material
in the New York Bight area. It is now 8:20 and we
scheduled the meeting to start at 8:00 o'clock and
I think we have given everyone an ample opportunity
who had planned to come, to come.
So far as I know, we only have one addition this evening
to the group we had here this afternoon who is desirous
to make a statement. In view of that, I think I will
dispense with the introduction which I gave this after-
noon with regard to why we are here and what we are
planning to do.
If there is anybody here who didn't hear that oar would
like to hear it again, why I would he glad to go over
it with you when the meeting is over.
We have our panel here again this evening, I see we've
got them all back, which surprises me, they all made it,
and we are glad to see so many of you here this evening
that were here this afternoon.
At this time, I am going to call on Mr. Joseph G. Blake
of the Howard Beach Rod and Gun Club, who I understand
would like to make a statement.
MR. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I have a resolution here. Would you
care to have me read it?
MR; MARTIN: Certainly, Would you come up ftont please.
MR. BLAKE: It is addressed to: "To Whom it May Concern: At
a meeting of the Howard Beach Rod and Gun Club, Howard
Beach, New York, held on October 6, 1958* the following
was unanimously adopted.
"WHEREAS fishermen angling for tuna fish in the fishing
grounds commonly known as the Mud Hole have not caught
any fish of these species in recent years, due no doubt,
to acid pollution, and
"WHEREAS the waters of the Mud Hole are of an acid
color, so much so, that a linen line allowed to run
into this slick is discolored and will deteriorate
fast, and
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73
"WHEREAS fish caught in this Blick, afcer being gutted,
have shown evidence of the dye in the linings of the
stomach,
"RESOLVED that this association will appreciate any efforts
made to clear this pollution, to the end that some day
after the waters clear themselves fishermen will enjoy
catching fresh tuna to which they are entitled.
"Respectfully submitted,—"
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, sir, Mr. Blake, would you wait just a
minute. I might explain to you, as I did this morning,
this is a panel of inquiry who are representatives of the
New Jersey Water Pollution Control Agency, and the New York
Water Pollution Control Agency, the Pish and Wildlife
Service and the Public Health Service, and in this hearing,
I have been restricting the asking of questions to the
panel members. I have acksd them to confine their ques-
tions to such things as they feel might elicit a little
bit more information from the statements that were pre-
sented, solely in an effort to get whatever facts we can
on the subject, would you mind if the panel has any
questions to ask you?
MR. BLAKE: I would be glad to answer them in any way I can.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Stein, does the panel have any questions?
MR. STEM: I would like to ask where Howard Beach is?
MR. BLAKE: Are you familiar with the Rockaways? It is on the
way to the Rockaways. If you ride on the subway to the
Rockaways, it's before Broad Channel, after Ozone Park,
in that area.
MR. STBIN: Mr. Blake, did you ever catch tuna?
MR. BLAKE: Yes, sir, fifteen years ago, before the acid grounds
were in existence, I caught tuna fish there. I caught
one that was 265 pounds. I took a boat out of Staten
Island, and in later years have never heard of any tuna
fish being caught there.
MP. STEIN: You caught tuna where?
-MR. BLAKE: In the Mud Hole. Now, it is renamed the acid, grounds.
MR. STEIN: Is your experience typical of the other folks at
Howard Beach?
MR. BLAKE: Oh, it is typical, yes.
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MR. STEIN: You don't take boats from Howard Beach and go out
to the Mud Hole, do you?"
MR. BLAKE:	Certainly.
MR. STEIN:	Do folks still go out and fish?
MR. BLAKE;	Yes, we still go out and fish.
MR. STEIN:	Do you notice any effect of the acid on other fish?
MR. BLAKE: Well,as it is stated there in the resolution, any
fish caught in the acid grounds shows evidence - you can
trace it in the food.
MR. STEIN: Do you notice any lack of fish because of this, out
in that area?
MR. BLAKE
MR. STEIN
MR. BLAKE
MR. STEIN
MR. BLAKE
Well, there is lack of mackeral and lack of tuna fish.
When did you last catch tuna - mackeral out there?
Well, mackeral is spotty.
Have you caught any mackeral at all recently?
Not at the Mud Hole. I caught them off the Inlet
at the Rockaways.
MR. STEIN: I mean, at the Mud Hole, do you have any recollection
of when the last time was that you caught mackeral?
MR. BLAKE: Never at the Mud Hole.
MR. STEIN: Even before the —
MR. BLAKE: Yes, we caught them there before. As a matter of
fact, we used to catch mackeral to use them for live
bait to catch tuna.
MR. STEIN: Our indications are that this took place, when was
it, at the end of 1$M3, wasn't it? 'h8. Does that — would
you say you caught mackeral there before that time?
MR. BLAKE: It's about 15 years ago, 12, 15 years ago we
caught tuna there.
MR. STEIN: * Okay, well, thank you very much.
MR. Shaw; Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question please.
We were told this afternoon that the Mud Hole was not a
very specific location. Could you describe what you mean
by the Mud Hole area?
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75
MR. BLAKE: I couldn't tell you just how many degrees it is. It
Ts off the Atlantic Highlands. But it is in that area now
that is known as the acid grounds. It's renamed.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Blake. Since we started,
Mr. Bill Paulsen has come in and wishes to make a state-
ment. Mr. Bill Paulsen of the Advertising Sportsmen's
Club of New York. Mr. Paulsen?
MR. PAULSEN: I have only one comment. My statement is written
and I will he glad to leave it with you.
MR. MARTIN: If you would like to send us a copy, we are going to
hold the record over, we will hold it open for at least
30 days, bo whatever your pleasure is on that.
MR. PAULSEN: I'll leave it with you. I am a representative of
the Advertising Sportsmen's Club. I think one thing
that this meeting should prove without a shadow of a
doubt is that the lack of scientific knowledge of what
is going on in the sea around us makes sad commentary
material for a nation that is on the threshhold of launch-
ing satellites to the moon. It is true now even here in
the nation's leading city, comparitively little is known
about what is going on under water a few scant yards from
our shores.
For example, can salt water game fish tr* propagated
like trout? Will the encroachment of civilization
in our wet lands jeopardize some salt water fin species?
Where do tuna spawn? And why do blue fish appear on our
shores in cycles? Do you really want to know? Well, ask
the two million, eight hundred thousand fishermen who
live in the Middle Atlantic States and you probably will
get two million, eight hundred thousand answers and none
of them will be the same. Ask our marine biologists and.
they will tell you that they are trying, that they need to
have the kind of equipment to find the answers.
What does this spell out? It implies that all too little
is being spent for marine research, a field, however,
that has tremendous social, economic and recreational
significance, and that is the contention that I am
raising -about our knowledge of what is going on in the
ocean area southeast of New York City. This area is so
important to our welfare that every conceivable precaution
should be taken to make sure that the fishery there is
maintained, that nothing is done to impair its productive
capacity.
Just as our courts consider a man innocent until proven
guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, let us not take even
the slightest risk of jeopardizing the delicate biological
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76
"balance of this fishery area unless it can be proven
frequently and consistently by those who practice or who
are seeking to practice dumping in this area, that the
wastes or acid wastes are absolutely harmless to marine
life.
Why should we take this attitude? Because of its social,
economic and recreational aspect? Well, let's estimate
then their significance. More than ten million people
live in areas contiguous to the New York Bight. The dis-
posal of their personal and industrial wastes is already
a mammouth undertaking for the Health Department. This,
with the steady increase of steamer traffic into the
world's busiest harbor with oil from their exhausts, personal
and miscellaneous wastes, adds to its problems, and now
we have pleasure boats by the thousands which contribute
to the pollution. Some of these pollution factors can be
neutralized or eliminated, but many will continue to con-
tribute towards discoloration of the sea around us and to
the degree of its impurity.
In 1955 i Crossly made a survey of the number of fishermen
in the United States and the amount of money that they
spend. From this report we can get some idea of the im-
portance of the marine fishery in the area under discussion,
an area which is in the migration lanes of many of our most
important migratory game fish. According to this survey,
11.3 percent of the people in the Middle Atlantic States
over 12 years of age, fish at one time or another, and
although this precludes fresh water fishermen, because the
net number of salt water fishermen in this area is not
readily available, it is still significant that they spend
a total of $258,555*780 or the average of $91*98 each dur-
ing the year. This money was spent for equipment, tackle,
bait, food, transportation and for other expenses. A
large percentage of these funds must have been spent on
salt water equipment. It is especially apparent when the
Crossly report points out that in metropolitan areas, a
great many fishermen are produced. For example, eight
times as many rural residents hunt, as do residents of
metropolitan areas, and only twice as many rural residents
fish as do their city cousins.
It is entirely logical, therefore, in a city like
New York and its environs that this would be true, and
what else is there to do that does not entail an expensive
trip if one wants to enjoy the out-of-doors. Moreover,
the New York Bight is famous for its fishery.
While, to my knowledge, there are no statistics of the
number of boats that fish in the bight, I have per-
sonally counted during the peak of the blue fish run two
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77
years ago, more than 80 'boats in one quadrant, which
was dotted with fishing parties as far as the eye could
see. Multiply "by four and you can estimate that there are
more than 320 boats in the vicinity, and as you moved on,
more boats appeared over the horizen in the same numbers.
As a matter of fact, from the appraisal of the fishing
activity in the New York Marine District made by Br. Irwin
Alpirin of the Freeport Marine Biological Laboratory in
1955* it is apparent that the economic and. the recreational
aspect of the sport fishery off our shores are staggering.
At the time, it was estimated that there were more than
6,975 rowboats, outboard skiffs and. u-drive-its for hire
in 23^ stations from Staten Island, to Montauk Point.
There were 168 open "boats, up to 110 feet long, floating
100 fishermen or more and 307 charter boats, mostly in
the kO foot class for off-shore jaunts. The number of
private boats were actually beyond a reasonable conjecture.
Here, a count of boat fishing activity £dr the season
was estimated by Dr. Alpirin. Of course, it has increased
substantially since 1955, fcut the total open boats, charter
boats and private boats made 193,580 trips. They car-
ried 1,056^4.74-anglfitp, tar 6,125,041 man hours of fishing.
Naturally, since these figures apply to the New York
Marine District, from Staten Island to Montauk, they
must be further analyzed before they can be related to
the fishing activity in the ocean area southeast of the
city. Many boats fi*om Freeport, west to Staten Island,
were at the time this estimate was being made, making
the run to the area in question in search of blue fish.
But as many, or even more were leaving points along
the Jersey shore to fish in the same general area, thus
these figures, even though they include estimates of
fishing and boating activities east of Freeport, and
not directly related to the New York Bight, should be
factored considerably upward, if they are to reflect
an accurate picture of the economic and recreational
aspects of the fishery supported, by the area.
Remember, too, the foregoing estimate did not take into
consideration the commercial fishermen's stake in the
New York Bight. This is being left to others more
qualified to venture their opinion, than myself. Nor
have I discussed the extent of injury which could pos-
sibly be inflicted by current dumping activities in the
area. The marine biologists that I have consulted, them-
selves can only conjecture and it would be foolish for me
to make statements based on my own observations which can-
not be scientifically supported. However, it is gener-
ally conceded that the area is in the migration lanes of
tuna, marlins, sword fish and blue fi6h, to mention a
few important species. While the blue fish apparently
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78
still abound in the area from time to time, the other
species have "been scarce or entirely absent. Moreover,
in the absence of research on the winter habits of many
other fin fish which migrate off share during the colder
months of the year, before dumping activities commenced,
who will ever know what the implications are to fluke,
sea bass, porgies, black fish and other bottom feeders.
Let us not confine our interests just to the New York
Bight or its social, economic and recreational aspects
as they are today. Consider the rest of the coastline,
which in some way is related to the health of this one
area. Consider, too, the future. What will be the con-
dition of the Bight when the New York population has
doubled, when fishing pressure is ten times as great as
it is now, when atomic, industrial and sewage wastes to
be disposed has become a matter of even greater signifi-
cance? Can we afford to take the gamble we are taking
without further intensive and exhaustive study?
Let's make plans hare for a method of disposing of wastes
that will guarantee ourselves, our posterity, the right
and the opportunity to fish in the unpolluted depths of
the sea for the sea's finny rewards. This has been our
heritage; let us leave no obstacle in the path of handling
that same heritage down to our children.
Thank you very much.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you, Mr. Paulsen. Would you just wait a moment,
please.
MR. SHAH: I have one question, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Paulsen, are
you suggesting that some agency, Federal, State or other-
wise, or a combination perhaps, should attempt to main-
tain the pristine purity of these waters?
MR. PAULSEN: I am suggesting that very self same thing.
MR. SHAW: Thank you.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Abelson?
MR. ABELSON: No questions.
MR. STEIN: Just a point of clarification. You mentioned the
New York Marine District. What do you mean by that?
MR. PAULSEN: The New York Marine District embraces all the waters
in the lower New York area, that would be Long Island
Sound, Gardners Bay, Montauk and westward to Staten Island.
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MR. DAPPERT: All tidal waters touching upon New York State.
MR. PAULSEN: Yes, sir, that would be the Marine District.
MR. MARTIN; Thank you very much, Mr. Paulsen.
MR. PAULSEN: Thank you ever so much, I appreciate the opportunity.
MR. MARTIN: So far as I know, Mr. Blake and Mr. Paulsen are
the only ones who have asked to speak this evening.
Does anybody else have new information or anything
else they would like to submit?
MR. MORAN: I would like for the benefit of your panel and
yourself to try and clean up this nebulous area called,
the Mud Hole, and again, I am not speaking with any
authority, nor can anyone. It is sImply what is gener-
ally referred to as the Mud Hole.
The designation, Mud Hole, has been used for the past
30 or 40 years. FGrty years ago all of the mud that
was dredged from the rivers and the Upper Bay and the
Lower Bay was brought down and dumped between what is
now Scotland and Ambrose Light, that was the general
area called the Mud Hole, where they deposited the mud
that was dredged from New York Harbor.
Even to this day, the U. S. Engineers use that area
and a line between Ambrose Lightship and Scotland
Lightship, down about a mile, for the deposit of the
mud that the engineers dig themselves, where the com-
mercial dredging people have to dump in an area that
is four and one half miles east southeast of Ambrose
Lightship, which is just out there, it is just a stone's
throw, as we refer to it.
So that the fishermen seeing the mud dumps, not only
close to Ambrose and Scotland, but also four and a
half miles, refer to the Mud Hole as where they dump
the mud, both commercial and the U. S. Engineer's
operation.
That is down here - incidentally, from here to here is
five miles, ftom here to here is four miles, and there
is the limit of where we dump the mud. Here is where
we dump the acid, five and six miles eway ftrom it.
There is no connection between the acid dumping and
the Mud Hole as such and most fishermen know that.
MR. SHAW: Mr. Moran, would you tell Is what is your estimate
of the area of the Mud Hole?
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MR. MOBAN: Oh, roughly, about two miles by four miles.
MR. SHAW: Thank you.
MR. MARTIN: Are there any other comments?
CAPT. MARINACCIO: I would like to give the fishermen's view on
this Mud Hole area.
A gorge exists that starts almost £roa Canada, comes
down through the Hudson River, extends out into the
ocean and to the continental shelf. The outer edge
of this gorge is called the Hudson Canyon and through
the war years it was found that fluke and sea bass and
many species that we thought migrated southward actually
congregated around what we call the Hudson Canyon.
This deep water exists shoreward and the upper end of
this gorge we refer to as the Mud Hole. It has a sedi-
ment on the bottom so deep that the anchors drag through
it. That sediment has collected over centuries and cen-
turies. It has absolutely nothing to do with the par-
ticular spot that Mr. Moran picked out where mud is
dumped. It is apart and separate. We have no reference
to that whatsoever.
MR. STEIN: Captain, would you mind pointing to that on the map
if you can?
MR. MORAN: That's the point on the upper end of the Hudson
River gorge.
CAPT/, MARINACCIO: The upper end of the Hudson River gorge,
where they are presently dumping mud is what we call
Seventeen Fathom grounds as Capt. Martin pointed out
to you, and that is very close to the upper end of the
gorge, what we call Mud Hole.
MR. MORAN: Just for mud dumping.
CAPT. MARINACCIO: This is where they dump. They come up in
this direction. Now, where we fish, they started
actually at Ambrose Lightship. The peculiarity of
tuna is that they are caught in roughly a hundred
feet or more of water. Now, they follow on the
edge of this gorge and they wind up by the top of
it, in roughly a hundred feet of water and we fish
for them all along there, this way - or we did, until
the area became so polluted.
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The reason that this area was so intensely fished
Was that we.resorted to a type of fishing that we
call "chumming* and that requires a tremendous amount
of bait being put into the water. The area is about
equidistant from Sheepshead Bay from Freeport, ftom
Shark River and Manasquan, and the boats congregated
in this area, here, which became known as the Mud Hole
area.
But since this has become so contaminated with acid
wastes, that we can't get a concentration of fish to
stay in there, as soon as the acid waste drifts in
this direction, the tuna disappear. You have to go
farther again, you may find them way over here, way
out here, continually looking for them.
MR. STEIN: Captain, before you leave, let's see if we under-
stand you. What you would say is the Mud Hole area is
located within the top of that kidney shaped figure you
have up there. Run your finger around it, that's right.
CAPT. MARINACCIO: We have at times, seen tuna east of Asbury
Park, even down this far. It requires a tremendous
amount of bait to keep millions of tuna in an area.
They will wander, even with the amount of natural
bait that is available, you still have to keep them
here with artificial bait.
MR. DAPEERT: Captain, will you show us where this Seventeen
Fathom area is, is this the same area?
CAPT. MARINACCIO: Seventeen Fathom is a small area that is
outlined here by Capt. Martin. You see, the boats
as they go out from here, as they get into the deep
water, to the edge of it, they are allowed to dump
there by the Supervisor of the New York Harbor.
There is a certain amount of mud and stone and
debris that is dumped there, but it is possible
that towboat companies refer to that as the Mud
Hole, I don't know, but I know that the fishermen
refer to this whole area, which is the upper end
of the gorge, which has a sediment that has been de-
posited here for the laBt several thousand years, and
it is a natural bottom, that is what we refer to as
a Mud Hole.
As a matter of fact, as you get down here, this part,
the upper section is called the Mud Hole, and the
middle of this is called the gorge and the outer end
of it by the commercial fishermen is called the Hudson
Canyon, and if you try to fish the deep water with the
anchor dragging it is impossible because the net gets
all full of mud.
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MR. DAPEERT: So in your view, this Seventeen Fathom area is
only a small portion of the total Mud Hole area.
CAPT. MARINACCIO: Yes, it is only an area a mile or two long
and a half a mile wide.
MR. SHAW: Mr. Chairman, I don't know about the rest of this
panel, "but I have become slightly confused. We have
bad two definitions now in the last ten minutes of what
constitutes the so-called Mud Hole. One was a very con-
fined area of eight square miles, I think, something
like that, and now we have an area which, to me, on the
map looks more like fifty or sixty square miles. I
don't know, I'm only guessing at the scale of that map,
but we've had so many references, Mr. Chairman, in the
text of this hearing this afternoon to the Mud Bole and
to Seventeen Fathoms, I am wondering when we get the
final report, if we are not all going to be thoroughly
confused.
We've got two points of view here on what constitutes
the Mud Hole. Is there somebody here who is an
authority on this? Captain, I am not discounting you
as an authority, pleaee believe me, neither am I you,
Mr. Moran.
MR. MORAN: There is no authority.
MR. SHAW: We hear this word, Mud Hole, Mr. Chairman, all through
this text this afternoon. How are we supposed to inter-
pret this?
MR. MARTIN: It seems to me, Mr. Shaw, that we have had this
term used by people who obviously have a different
understanding to them as to what it is. The only thing
I know is that I would assume that Mr. Moran this after-
noon talked about the Mud Hole, we have his definition,
and I believe the Captain indicated that in his opinion
at least, when the fishermen, the actual fishermen fished
the area and talked about the Mud Hole, they mean the
area he was refearring to, and I think we will just sort
of have to assume that in going back over the record
that when the fishery people are talking about it, they
are meaning this area. .
Now, it may be that on further study it may be necessary
to contact the people who talked about this area this
afternoon and attempt to define it a little bit more
closely, so that we know for sure just what in their
mind what area they meant when they were talking about
the Mud Hole.
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83
It is unfortunate, but It is like many, many things.
You ask five different people what a steak is and you
might get some surprisingly different answers, and I
think this is a situation we have, and I don't think
there is probably anybody - we could get somebody to
set up a definition but whether or not everybody would
understand it, I would rather doubt.
So I guess what we have to do is try, in the light of
these two definitions that we have, if anybody else has
a different understanding of the Mud Hole, why, we would
like to have it.
MR. SHAW; We could define it as to whether we can get fish or
not, and a good many times there were never any fish
there.
MR, MCRAN: I would like to refer to Capt. Martin's remarks
this afternoon. He opened his remarks with reference
to the Mud Hole, but just where it is is very controversial.
Itjs simply something that people refer to, sort of like
Shangri-La, and this Captain here is exactly right, it
is the upper end of the Hudson River gorge. Long before
the white man got here, there was a lot of mud here.
Of course, it was trapped by the settlement from the
effluent coming out of the Hudson River, but it has
always been referred to in the trade as all of that
area around the upper end of the Hudson River gorge,
which is exactly that two by four square mile area as
against that 30 or 40 square mile area that's been out-
lined in that kidney area, the lower end of that is
never referred to, or at least I've never referred to
it, the lower half of that kidney has never been referred
to as the Mud Hole. It is always the upper end of that.
MR- MARTIN: Can you throw any other light on that? Dr. Wurtz?
ER. WUR'TZ; I have no particular light on the Mud Hole as such.
1 have always felt that it was the upper end of the
gorge. I have been cn the water with Capt. Marinaccio
a number of times, and I feel geographically that the
upper end of this Mud Hole is like Mr. Moran's Mud Hole
for all practical purposes.
Mr. Moran, in the normal course of his affairs, stipu-
lates it somewhat more than Capt. Marinaccio does.
There are a couple of comments I would like to make if
I may. One is that all through the meeting that has
been held this afternoon and this evening, with reference
to this acid waste, I don't hold any brief one way or
the other as to how you describe this waste material.
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8U
It is, in effect, acid in the "barge, "but orice dumped
into the water, the acidity is something that is
neutralized within a matter of minutes, Mr. Mar an
mentioned this, and I think within five or ten minutes,
the constitution of the salt water has returned to
normalcy for the area where the waste was dropped. So
properly, I don't feel that you can actually view this
as an acid waste.
Damages that have "been done or are being done, if there
are such damages, are not in the product of the acidity,
except for the immediate discharge from the barge. That
is one thing I would like to mention.
Another thing I would like to comment on is this after-
noon in l&o Moran's comments, he talked about the dis-
solution of this slug of waste within a matter of two or
th^ee minutes. I would like to point out that of my own
experience, this is incorrect. This slug of waste re-
tains its identity as a mass far considerably longer a
period than that. I don't know what the dumping schedule
is, whether it is every 18 hours or every 24 hours, or
what, but I do know that I personally have seen three
distinct slugs floating in the Bight, in the course of
one cruise through the Bight, that is a matter of three
or four hours.
I think this is a matter that should be borne in mind
when we are talking about ultimate dissemination of this
waste material.
I would also like to mention, in talking about the type
of dispersion ae Ambrose light is about two miles and
Scotland light about one mile, and this is as you move
eastward towards the ocean, so your tidal oscillations
are not of the order of magnitude to indicate a lot of
flushing. It takes about ten days for the Bight to flush,
or for a discrest piece of water to move out of the
Bight into the open ocean.
MR. MARTIN: Thank you. Any other comments?
MR. BLAKE: I don't know how often this acid is dumped, but it
appears that there are not enough fi^aermen getting up
on this floor. I am speaking as a layman. Now, as
far as I understand, the Mud Hole is about lU miles
off the Highlands. There are no fish that I know of.
I personally have never caught any fish in this area,
only blue fish. That's the only specie I ever caught
there, now, since this acid has been dumped.
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85
Previously, when there was no fish on the "bottom, we
would always get ling and whiting, we would always get
fish on the bottom, now at these later dates, we get
no fish on the "bottom at all. There's nothing on the
bottom. The only fish that you get today, the only fish
that I ever get from my own personal experience are blue
fish on the edge of the acid.
Wow, I wish some of you fishermen would get up, don't
let the scientific data get you down, some of you
fishermen get up and say something. You know something
about the acid grounds.
MR. MARTIN: Mr. Blake, I night say that the gentlemen who are
here at the hearing this evening, I believe that most of
th:im said their say this afternoon, which we have on
th3 record. We had about 30 people talk this after-
noon. I think that's why nobody eltc is getting up.
I am sure it is not because they are disinterested in
this problem.
We have Exhibits A through 0, written statements which
were submitted, many of them by the fisheries people,
in addition to the oral remarks they made.
MR. BACKUS; I am Bill Backus of the newspaper, "The Elizabeth
Daily Journal." I em curious to know whether any lobster-
men have sent in a statement on the condition of the
grounds in that area where the iron fungus are supposed
to have settled. My understanding is that the lobstering
in that area is virtually wiped out.
I was wondering whether a statement had been made by
any bona fide lobstermen in that area.
MR. MARTIN: To my knowledge, we have received no statements.
MR. DAPPERT: I believe in Capt. Martin's statement he made some
reference to the disappearance of lobster.
MR. MARTIN: But we have received no statements submitted to us.
A VOICE: This afternoon there was a statement presented but
not read by the Public Relations Director of the National
Lead Company. Possibly I am mistaken, but I understand
it was not read due to the shortage of time. Inasmuch
as the National Lead Company appears to be the bone
of our contention in these hearings, possibly it might
be a little clarifying if we did hear this statement
presented by the National Lead Company.
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86
We have one statement from the towing company that
works for the National Lead Company. "What do we have
from the Lead Company itself?
MR. MARTIN: Well, this is a choice which Mr. Rose will have to
make. We are solely having a meeting here where people
who want to talk will have an opportunity to talk.
Mr. Rose has submitted his statement. Anyone is at liberty
to examine that statement after we have had a chance to
get it "back to the office. I will give Mr. Rose an
opportunity, and if he doesn't wish to talk, I think
that's his prerogative.
MR. SMITH: Is he here tonight?
MR. RGS5: My name is Carlton Rose. I am the Director of Public
Relations with the National Lead Company.
For you who weren't here this afternoon, I said that we
had submitted a statement to Mr. Martin, which consisted
chiefly of a statement of the practice that we are
following at the present time in dumping, and a com-
plete set of all the reports which have been issued on
this subject, starting in with the preliminary Woods
Hole report in 19kQ and ending up with the last Woods
Hole report, which was completed in 1^57 which covered
an examination of ths bottom by skin divers, an examin-
ation of the life at the bottom and the top of the
area, that is, aquatic life, so that what we really
submitted was a brief of our present practice and a
complete set of all the reports.
As I mentioned this afternoon, we would be very pleased
to give Mr. Martin and the Public Health Service any
other technical information that they may rocuire while
considering thi6 matter.
MR. MARTIN'; As I.stated,'.the material frOm: the National Lead
Company was delivered to my office yesterday afternoon
by a special messenger, and I, myself, have not had
an opportunity to review it and I don't believe anybody
on my staff has had an opportunity to look it over yet,
not that we are trying to hold anything out. I can't
tell you myself what is in the statement.
Mr. Rose has given you a summary of it and I say any-
one is welcome to examine it after we have been able
to get the material all into one place and get it
catalogued into things of that nature.
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87
MR. SMITH: Could the gentleman from the National Lead. Company
give us any indication of what these reports indicate?
Could he give us an idea of vhat these reports that he has
filed with you do indicate? We are talking about damage
resulting from this operation. Do these reports that
he has formally filed with you indicate that there is
no damage? Is that the point that the National Lead
is making in the submission of these reports? Possibly
the gentleman might like to explore that for us, I
don't know, I'm just asking.
MR. MARTIN: I don't know either, because I haven't read the
material which was submitted.
MR. SMITH: So far, it is a secret what happened.
MR. MARTBI: It's really not a secret. It's the fact that none
of us have been able to look at it as yet. We are not
going to keep it a secret.
Mr. Rose is at liberty, if he desires, to say anything.
He is also at liberty if he doesn't wish, not to. This
is, as I understand it, a rather voluminous report, and
I don't think it might be summarized in just a few words.
MR. ROSE: We felt they were quite complicated and required study.
All of the reports have been made public to the various
technical groups of th2 agencies who are interested.
MR. MARTIN: These are the reports that were published, Mr. Rose?
MR. ROSE: That's right, some wore published, some were distri-
buted. The most recent Woods Hole report was distributed
to aJlthe agencies which were interested in this matter
in New York, New Jersey and in Washington.
MR. MARTIN: I think I can say to you, Mr. Smith, if you desire
to examine these, that apparently these are ones which
we have previously seen before, and we would r*o our
best to make copies available for your study if you
Bhould so desire.
MR. SMITH: I certainly would appreciate it, sir. I don't wish
to belabor the point, but I was under the impression
that this panel was sitting here today in an effort to
publicly explore the various points of view, both pro
and con. There has been no opportunity granted to the
panel today to explore any of the positions taken by
the National Lead Company.
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88
The people who are in opposition to this proposal, to
this program of dumping, have given this panel an
opportunity for cross-questioning for a full exploration
of other opinions, factual information and anything else.
The national Lead Company has not at the present time, as
of this moment, has not granted that same right to this
exploratory panel that i6 sitting here, convened for
that particular purpose. That is my impression.
MR. MARTIN; I believe you slightly misinterpret the purpose of
this panel and maybe the purpose of the meeting. The
meeting wa3 not to analyze all of the material that is
available on this particular subject. It was only to
receive informatiori. That was the purpose of the meeting,
to receive information in addition to that information
which we have been able to collect up to this time, and
our only purposs in having the inquiry panel here T.fas
two-fold. One, these gentlemen are somewhat conversive
with the problem, although I think they would all admit
that they by no means know the ins and outs of it, and
I thought that by having them here, they might be able
to draw out additional information, and I am sure there
was no attempt to cross examine anybody in the way of
questioning anybody's statements or anything else.
They were just trying to establish additional infor-
mation.
But in addition to that, some of these men will be
asked to serve on this technical advisory committee,
to assist our technical people down at the Sanitary
Engineering Center in going over this information.
Now, I believe practically everybody that spoke on the
other side of the fence this afternoon, and I think
certainly Mr, Hose has indicated it, that if when
our technical people in Cincinnati and this advisory
committee, go into tlais, that they have additional
questions or if they feel that additional information
is necessary above and beyond what Mr. Moran has sub-
mitted, or what Mr. Rose has submitted, or anybody
else has submitted, I think they will feel at liberty
to go to those sources in an effort to get whatever
additional clarification is available.
I believe nearly everybody that has been here today
and in the spirit of cooperation, has fully agreed
to cooperate in every way they can, to make all in-
formation that they have available. Now, that is the
sort of a round-up of the thing, and it was not at-
tempting to not go into one side and go into the other
side. It isn't that at all.
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89
There is a tremendous amount available, and if we attempted
to go into - for example, if we asked the Woods Hole
people to come up here, summarize the three reports
that they have prepared and engaged with them in dis-
cussion on various facets of it, we just haven't got.
the time to do that, but we feel that the technical
people can go into that as they study this problem, and
certainly if they are any good and we think that they will
be good and true and honest in their professional evalu-
ation and judgment, where they have questions, where
they feel that additional clarification is necessary,
I am sure that they will have no hesitation to go to
the sources and try to get whatever back-up information
is needed and is available.
So, it is with that in mind that I believe the panel
confined itself to the few questions that they have
asked.
MR. SMITH: I did not, by any stretch of the :Lmagination wish to
cast any reflections on the panel. At dinner this evening,
we commented on the fairness of the panel on the latitude
that was granted in the testimony that was presented
here this afternoon. It was revelaing and very refresh-
ing to find such an open approach to the subject.
The question, as I say, the bone of contention is not
presenting their case for discussion on the floor or
for questioning by the panel, was what puzzled me, that
was all, sir.
MR. DAPPERT: Mr. Martin, may I make a comment?
MR. MARTIN; Yes sir.
MR. SAPPERT: I will refer briefly to the letter which Br.Hilleboe,
Chairman of the New York Water Pollution Control Board
wrote the Surgeon General of the United States Public
Health Service. He asked the Surgeon General to do what
he could, to see what could be done about getting some
kind of a further comprehensive study made of this en-
tire problem.
As a result of that, this panel was asked to appear here
tonight to assist the Public Health Service in bringing
them all of the information that we would get in reference
to this particular problem. The purpose of getting that
information is to enable the Sanitary Engineering Service
in Cincinnati along with this panel to come to some
recommendation as to whether this kind of a study that we
have been talking about should be made or should not be
-------
90
made. That's essentially the purpose of this meeting,
and in Que time, I am quite eute tbe panel will make
some recommendations on that particular point.
Then what happens then, why, if ii is in favor of a -
recognized that such a study should fee made, then pomes
the problem of how do we get it organized, how do tie get
it financed, who is going to carry it on and that sort
of thing.
MR. SMITH: I agree with you. It wasn't conducted for personal
benefits. I don't feel that the National Lead Company
has to defend Itself publicly against me, but I was under
the impression that this was a general open-lay-the-cards-
on-the-table hearing and that was why I brought it up, sir.
MR. SHAW: I would like to emphasize to Mr. Smith and the people
that were here earlier today, I still see a few of them
around, that the work of this panel is not finished
this evening by any means. We still reserve the privilege
of calling upon Mr. Rose and Mr. Maran or anybody else,
and as has been indicated earlier today, there are so
many people representing fishing industries who have
alrepdy volunteered to submit additional information,
and the panel, before they got through with this job,
will undoubtedly call on a number of people to submit
further information.
This work is not finished tonight, by any means.
MR. BINNER: Not to change the subject, my name is John Blnner,
Sportsmen's Council of New York and New Jersey areas
have covered this problem quite extensively in the
past few years. I regret that there are not more
members of the press here too, to talk an the subject.
They are very familiar with it, but I do have a file
of many of these press clippings that I would like tq
present to the committee if that would be in order.
MR. MARTIN: Certainly.
MR. BINNER: I would like to mail it to you.
MR. MARTIN: I said this morning we would hold the record
open officially for at least 30 days and I am sure
that if any of you have important information even after
that time, we will not turn you away, you can bring it up
to the office, because we want to get every bit of in-
formation we can on this.
Now, to repeat a little bit what I said this after-
noon, what we plan to do is to take the information
which we have already been able to collect, of
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91
the information which was presented here today, both
the transcript and the exhibits and the written state-
ments and give that to our scientists at the Sanitary
Engineering Center.
There, we expect them to take it and through it and
evaluate it and where they feel additional information
is necessary, they will solicit that if it is available
or they will call upon the Technical Advisory Committee
for assistance in this evaluation in trying to reach
6ome decision on what further should be done.
We are hoping that within a three to a six-month
period we will have a recommendation which we will be
able to present to Dr. Hilleboe who initiated this
inquiry, and other interested parties, as to what in
the Public Health Service's opinion is the next step
in solving this particular problem.
I wish I could hold out the strong hope that in from
three to six months we would have the answer and be
able to put it in everybody's hands, but I am not so
foolish as to expect that we will be able to do that.
As you can see, this is a large problem. It is a pro-
blem that, lias many facets, a problem that has a great
deal of scientific status back of it and it is a pro-
blem about which a great deal is known, certainly more
is not known than is known.
I want to thank all of you for your fine cooperation
here this afternoon and this evening, I am sure that
all of us have but one thing in mind and that's to try
to find the best answer to this problem, no matter what
it may now seem to us that it is. We are certainly go-
ing to do that and I know all of ypu will continue to
give us your support and your cooperation in every
possible way.
We will try to keep you advised as to the progress being
made. If you want to call my office at any time, we
will be glad to tell you what the status of.the pro-
gress our experts are making as well as we can.
We are not going to solve this overnight, I can assure
you of that. Again, I want to thank you and tell you
that we are here to serve the people in this area that
are trying to came up with an answer to this difficult
problem and that we solicit your continued understand-
ing and cooperation which we know we'll get.
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92
Thank you very much for being here.
(Whereupon, at 9:15 P.M., this panel closed.)
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Appendix A
ATTENDANCE ROSTER
NAME
Ferris Altherr
Earl J. Anderson
William Bacus
M. Barofsky
Ifm. G. Bentley
John A. 3inner
TITLE
Chemist
Sr. Sanitary
Engineer
Fish and Game
Editor
Deputy
Commissioner
Actg.Dist.Dir.
Fish and Game,
Marine District
President
Joseph G. Blake,Sr. Board of
Governors
17m. R. Bradley
Asst., Div. of
Envir. Health
George T. Cowherd, Asst. Chief
Jr.	Engineer
Russ Crandall
Edw. P. Decher
Publisher
Secretary
ORGANIZATION REPRESENTED
J. Howard Smith, Inc.
Port Monmouth, N.J.
Region II, PHS
42 Broadway
New York 4, N.Y.
Elizabeth Daily Journal
Elizabeth, N.J.
Water Department
1103 City Hall Annex
Philadelphia, Pa.
N.Y.S. Conservation Dept.
65 W. S-arise Highway
Freeport, L.I., New York
Sportsmen'8 Council
Marine District of
New York State, Inc.
P.O. Box 266
Long Island City 1, N.Y.
Howard Beach Rod and Gun Club
Box 204
•Howard Beach 17, N.Y.
American Cyanimid Co.
30 Rockefeller Plaza
New York 20, N.Y.
Interstate Sanitation Comm.
10 Columbus Circle
New York 19, New York
Fishing-L.I. Waters-Magazine
20 Whitehouse Ave.
Roosevelt, L.I., N.Y.
Jt. Meeting Essex and
Union Counties, N. J.
Room 311, City Hall
Newark, New Jersey
-------
A-2
NAME
TITLE
ORGANIZATION REPRESENTED
Thomas R. Glenn, Director and
Jr.	Chief Engineet
Nicholas Griek
Guy E. Griffin
A. W. Hoadley
Geo. Holtsman
Win. Ingram
Rudolph Irvin
L. M. K1ashman
M. H. Klegerman
Matthew Krafte
L. L. Lewis
Don Manns
Dep. Comm.
Public Works
Wayne D. Heydecker Secretary-
Treasurer
J.A. Sanitary
Engineer
Captain
USCG
Aquatic
Biologist
New York
Amphibians
Actg. Asst.
Regional Engr.
Consulting
Engineer
Counsel
Executive
Secretary
Interstate Sanitation Comm.
10 Columbus Circle
New York 19, N.Y.
L.I. Fishermen's Ass'n.
90 Rollstone Avenue
W. Sayville, L.I., N.Y.
Dept. Public Works
Westchester County
White Plains, N.Y.
Atlantic States Marine
Fisheries Commission
22 W. First Street
Mt. Vernon, Hew York
Region II, PHS
42 Broadway, New York 4, N.Y.
U. S. Coast Guard
c/o 3rd CG District
Custom House
New York 4, N.Y.
Robert A. Taft Sanitary
Engineering Center
Cincinnati, Ohio
965 Tinton Avenue
Bronx, New York
Region II, PHS
42 Broadway, N.Y. 4, N.Y.
Linden-Roselle Sewerage Auth.
50 Church St., New York, N.Y.
Joint Meeting
1000 Springfield Ave.
Irvington, N.J.
Buttonwood Lane
Ramson, New Jersey
L.I. League of Salt Water
Sportsmen
67-11 Parsons Blvd.
Flushing 65, New York
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A-2
NAME
Thomas R. Glenn,
Jr.
Nicholas Griek
Guy E. Griffin
Wayne D. Heydecker
A. W. Hoadley
Geo. Holtzman
Wm. Ingram
Rudolph Irvin
L. M. K1 ashman
H, H. Klegerman
Matthew Krafte
L. L. Lewis
Don Manns
TITLE
Director and
Chief Engineet
Dep. Comm.
Public Works
Secretary-
Treasurer
J.A. Sanitary
Engineer
Captain
USCG
Aquatic
Biologist
New York
Amphibians
Actg. Asst.
Regional Engr.
Consulting
Engineer
Counsel
Executive
Secretary
ORGANIZATION REPRESENTED
Interstate Sanitation Comm.
10 Columbus Circle
New York 19, N.Y.
L.I. Fishermen's Ass'n.
90 Rollstone Avenue
W. Sayville, L.I., N.Y.
Dept. Public Works
Westchester County
White Plains, N.Y.
Atlantic States Marine
Fisheries Commission
22 W. First Street
Mt. Vernon, New York
Region II, PHS
42 Broadway, New York 4, N.Y.
U. S. Coast Guard
c/o 3rd CG District
Custom House
New York 4, N.Y.
Robert A. Taft Sanitary
Engineering Center
Cincinnati, Ohio
965 Tinton Avenue
3ronx, New York
Region II, PHS
42 Broadway, N.Y. 4, N.Y.
Linden-Roselle Sewerage Auth.
50 Church St., New York, N.Y.
Joint Meeting
1000 Springfield Ave.
Irvington, N.J.
Buttonwood Lane
Ramson, New Jersey
L.I. Lea^ie of Salt Water
Sportsmen
67—11 Persons Blvd.
Flushing 65, New York
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NAME	TITLE
Carmine Marinaccio Secretary
J. Martin, Jr.
Jos. F. Mellor, Jr. Industrial
Hygienist
Edw. John Holler Deputy
Engineer
Eugene F. Moran,Jr. Vice President
Wm. A. O'Leary	Director
Bill Paulsen
Jos. F. Puncocher Regional
Director
Parker C. Reist Asst. Sanitary
Engineer (R)
Col. T.DeF. Rogers Supvr.
N.Y. Harbor
Harold Romer	Dir., Bur. of
San. Engrs.
Carlton H. Rose	Dir. Public
Relations
ORGANIZATION! REPRESENTED
Freeport Boatsman's Assn.
540 S. Grove Street
Freeport, New York
Sheepshead Bay Boat
Owners Assn.
2670 E. 23th Street
Brooklyn 35, Hew York
American Cyanamid Co.
P.O. Box 31, Linden, M.J.
Passaic Valley Sewerage
Comm.
790 Broad St., Newark, N.J.
Moran Towning Corp.
17 Battery PI, New York 4
Sewage Disposal
Dept. of Public Works,NYC
Municipal Bldg., NY, H.Y.
Advertising Sportsmen's Club
II	Horseshoe Dr.
Northport, New York
Bur. Comm. Fisheries
U.S. Dept.of the Interior
P.O. Bldg.
Gloucester, Mass.
Region II, PHS
42 Broadway, New York 4
Corps of Engineers
III	E. 16th St., N.Y.,N.Y.
N.Y.C. Dept. of Health
93 Worth St., N.Y., N.Y.
National Lead Company
Rm. 2020, 111 Broadway
New York 6, New York
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A-4
NAME
Chas. Sanders
TITLE
Supt. Engr.
Principal Public
Health Engineer
Ernest R. Segesser
W. F. Schmaus
Rudolph Schoen, Jr. President
Robert Shapiro
Dudley Smith
A.H. Underhill
Leslie E. West
Art Wilson
Charles B. VJurtz
Mai Xavier
Chief of
Laboratories
President
Director
Chief
Engineer
Correspondence
Secretary
Asst.
Gen. Mgr.
ORGANISATION REPRESENTED
Linden Roselle Sewerage
Authority
P.O. Box 134, Linden, N.J.
N.J. State Dept.of Health
Trenton, N. J.
3G Fairfield Avenue
Cranford, N. J.
Postal Rod and Gun Club
L.I.C. 1, N.Y.
N.Y. Dept.of Public Works
Wards Island, N.Y. 35, N.Y.
Atlantic Coast Marine
Sportsmen Association
351 Arnold Avenue
Pt. Pleasant Beach, N.J.
N.J. Div. of Fish and Game
230 W. State Street
Trenton, New Jersey
Jt. Meeting-Municipalities in
Essex and Union Counties
105 Mill Road
Irvington, New Jersey
Lindeman's Anglers
86-51 Broadway
Elmhurst, L.I.
Consulting Biologists
610 Commercial Trust Bldg.
Philadelphia, Pa.
National Fisheries Inst.,Inc.
1614 - 20th St., N.W.
Washington 9, D. C.
Alexander S. Zele
Chemist
Long Island State Pic. Comm.
Babylon, L.I., N.Y.
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INDEX
Appendix B
AFTERNOON SESSION, pages 1 through 71: EVENING SESSION, pages 72 through
HAKE	PAGE NUMBER
A'oleson	13, 14, 73
Altherr	43, 49, 50
Bacus	85
Bentley	32, 33
Binner	25, 90
Blake	72, 73, 74, 75, 84
Dappert	8, 13, 21, 22, 31, 33, 39, 40, 41, 49, 54, 55, 70,
79, 81, 32, 85, 89
Glenn	63
Griffin	47, 48
Heydecker	15
Holtsman	15
Klegerman	63
Manns	17, 21, 22, 23, 25
Marinaccio	34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 80, 81, 32
J. Martin	37, 50, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62
S. Martin	1, 5, 6, 0, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 25, 28, 32,
33, 35, 40, 41, 42, 45, 47, 48, 49, 50, 62, 63,
64, 66, 67, 68, 69, 71, 72, 73, 75, 78, 79, 80,
02, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90
Moran	42, 45, 46, 47, 50, 79, 80, 32, 83
0'Leary	10, 13, 14
Paulsen	75, 78, 79
Rogers	6, 9
Rose	5, 47, 86, 87
Shaw	9, 49, 50, 74, 78, 79, 80, 82, 83, 90
Smith	64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 86, 37, 39, 90
Stein	8, 9, 14, 16, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 33, 35, 36,
37, 33, 39, 41, 45, 46, 47, 50, 55, 56, 57, 58,
59, 60, 61, 62, 69, 70, 71, 73, 74, 78, 80, 81
Underhill	66, 69
West	62
Wurtz	23, 31, 32, 40, 63, 83
Xavier
42
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