National Environmental Justice
Advisory Council
Meeting
July 21 - 23,2009
Tuesday, July 21, 2009
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National Environmental Justice Advisory Council
July 21, 2 0 0 9
NEJAC Members Present:
John Ridgway, Co-Chair
Elizabeth Yeampierre, Co-Chair
Don Aragon
Chuck D. Barlow
Sue Briggum
Peter Captain, Sr.
Jolene M. Catron
Wynecta Fisher
William Harper
Jodena Hennecke
Christian R. Holmes
Hilton Kelley
J. Langdon Marsh
Shankar Prasad
John A. Rosenthall
Patricia E. Salkin
Omega Wilson
Committee Members Absent:
Richard Moore, Chair
M. Kathryn Brown
Gregory J. Melanson
Paul Mohai
EPA Members Present:
Victoria Robinson, Designated Federal Officer
Charles Lee, Director, OEJ
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National Environmental Justice Advisory Council
INDEX
July 21, 2 0 0 9
Page
Welcome and Opening Remarks
by Victoria Robinson, DFO	5
Welcome and Introduction of Acting Co-Chairs (by telephone)
by Richard Moore, Chair	7
Comments
by Elizabeth Yeampierre, Co-Chair	21
by John Ridgway, Co-Chair	2 6
by Charles Lee	28
Welcome from Former NEJAC Member
by Mathy Stanislaus	31
Questions and Answers	4 0
OEJ Overview
by Charles Lee	54
Questions and Answers	61
Tribute to Luke Cole	101
Welcome to Afternoon Session
by Victoria Robinson	109
Comments
by Steve Owens	110
Impacts of NEJAC Recommendations on
EPA Policies and Activities
by Tim Fields	116
Questions and Answers	13 9
Enhancing NEJA C Engagement with Impacted Communities	17 5
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National Environmental Justice Advisory Council
INDEX (Continued)
July 21, 2 0 0 9
Page
Presentation by the Administrator
by Lisa P. Jackson, EPA Administrator	208
Questions and Answers	219
Public Comment Period	22 5
Keynote: "	" denotes inaudible in the transcript.
denotes phonetically spelled in transcript.
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session
(9:08 a.m.)
Welcome and Opening Remarks
by Victoria Robinson, DFO
MS. ROBINSON: Good morning, everybody.
(Chorus of "good morning")
MS. ROBINSON: Oh, it's like being in school. The
teacher says "Good morning" and everybody says "Good morning."
We would like to thank everybody for coming.
This -- we are very pleased that we have a near-
record number of pre-registrants for this meeting, which is
good, especially as we are celebrating our 15-year anniversary
of the NEJAC. This is somewhere in our 2 6th, 27th -- 2 6th
meeting of the NEJAC in 15 years. That is a lot of meetings,
public meetings. That does not count through all the various
roundtables and public dialogue sections that are -- that have
been held also during that time.
So, because we are expecting near capacity, we ask
that if there is an empty chair next to you, please don't use
it for your belongings. Instead, please utilize the space
underneath your chairs, particularly this afternoon when we
have the Administrator come.
As usual, we do have a full agenda. We plan to stay
to the times as close as possible, but we recognize that there
is, as always, a need to be flexible.
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We will have a short break at 10:30 and we then we
will break for lunch at noon, if not before. We have an hour
for lunch and we have coordinated with the hotel to be
prepared to offer a fast service in the Veranda Restaurant.
That is the restaurant just outside here, next to the
Starbucks. And there is also a list of nearby fast-option
restaurants at the Registration Desk, our NEJAC Registration
Desk.
Restrooms are a little hidden away. They are
located on this level to your left as you walk toward the
registration area or on the lobby level to the right as you
exit the elevators.
The -- we have a court reporter, so as with all
NEJAC proceedings, as required by FACA guidelines, we have a
court reporter here who is recording and making a verbatim
transcript of the meeting proceedings. We also have a
contractor taking notes and they are preparing a meeting
summary. And this information will be made available on EPA's
website.
For the members here at the table, we do have push-
to-talk microphones. We need everyone to speak clearly into
the mike so that our court reporter and note-takers can hear.
Also, I think -- let me know if you -- those in the back
cannot hear. If you are -- you should be able to hear. We
have positioned microphones so that you should be able to hear
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throughout the entire room. And to talk, you should be
familiar, you know -- press, talk to speak, and press it again
when you are done speaking.
And before I go on, we have four members who are
absent today for a variety of reasons. Richard Moore is
unable to be here, but he is on the phone. He will be
speaking to you all in a few moments.
Paul Mohai is out of the country on travel. Greg
Melanson couldn't break away from work. And Katie Brown has
an illness in her family. And -- but I wanted to say, you
know, this is -- I have been hanging around the NEJAC since
1995, and I can't believe it has been all these years, and I
see a lot of old faces, a lot of new faces, and I am just
really happy to see everybody here and looking forward to a
very productive meeting.
So I am going to turn it over to Richard, who has a
few comments to make, and then he will introduce our two
individuals who will be serving as the Acting Co-Chairs in his
stead for this meeting, Elizabeth Yeampierre and John Ridgway.
So, it is up to you, Richard.
Comments (via telephone)
by Richard Moore, Chair
MR. MOORE: I would like to begin by saying good
morning to everyone --
(Chorus of "good morning")
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MR. MOORE: -- and expressing my apologies for not
being able to attend this very, very important NEJAC meeting
under a new Administration.
But before I proceed with my comments, I would like
to commend the NEJAC Council members. As you all are aware,
the Council has been working tremendously throughout this
period of time, and a lot of the issues and discussions that
the individual working groups, subcommittees and so on have
been having is included in this morning's agenda.
I would also like to welcome, as I said, the NEJAC
Council members. I would like to also welcome all of you that
are present today and will be present over the next coming
couple of days for this NEJAC Council meeting.
I would like to look at local agencies. As you all
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are clear throughout the 15 year, as Victoria has stated,
that, oh, many a times throughout the NEJAC's history, local
agencies' representatives have also been present and
participated in discussions, panel discussions and so on, at
NEJAC meetings.
State agencies, we have seen an incredible
commitment on the part of many of the state environmental
agencies to move environmental justice forward, working hand-
in-hand in some cases with grassroots groups, with other
stakeholders, in terms of lifting up and moving forward and
coming to solutions to many of the problems that our
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communities are challenged with.
Federal agencies -- again, good morning to all of
you that are representing various Federal agencies in this
meeting.
And then, also others that are there from community
organizations, from other institutions -- not only
environmental justice institutions but environmental
organizations and institutions as well. And again, those that
are present representing academic institutions, community
institutions, and so on.
I would like to just share with -- some thoughts
with you about some of the things that I would think that not
only have I been thinking about in this period of time, but I
think many of us, many of you at the table, and many of you
that are participants in this meeting have been thinking
about.
I think one of the issues that we need to be very,
very careful of, and now we have a new Administration, so we
see the possibilities of moving forward not only on issues
that are important today but many of the crisis issues, the
challenges, the heartaches, the struggles, the day-to-day
activities that many of our communities are impacted by.
And so, then with that, we see many a times that
local agencies, for example, are not working hand-in-hand
within local government with their counterparts.
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Environmental agencies within local, state and
Federal governments, in many cases, are not working with
health institutions. And health institutions, in many cases,
are not working with housing institutions. And we could go on
and on and on with this.
But what I am saying to you: Although the
environmental justice movement, along with many of our
representative organizations and networks, haven't had
incredible, incredible, incredible successes throughout these
last many, many years.
Our organizations were founded from a bottom-up
principle -- at the first People of Color Summit, where very
important decisions were made giving direction to our
movement, to the environmental justice movement. And at that
meeting, as many of you are aware, is where we redefined
environmentalism -- "we" meaning grassroots representatives
from organizations throughout this country and not only
throughout the country but the other countries that were
represented in Washington, DC at the first People of Color
Summit.
But this is where, in actuality, we came together
and we said that nothing would be the same anymore. And that
as we look at the future and the destiny of our communities
and those challenges that we have been impacted by, that
today, as we announced in Washington, DC, and I think today
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again as we announced in Washington, DC, that environmentalism
has been redefined as we where we work, where we live, where
we play, and those are very, very crucial elements within the
direction and the decision making of our environmental justice
movement. And then we added sisters and brothers and
colleagues and so on. We added to that where we pray and
where we go to school. And so that has been very, very
important to us.
We cannot separate the conditions in many cases that
workers inside these facilities, not only in the Southwest but
throughout this country, are working in, unhealthy situations
in the workplace, unhealthy situations in our communities, and
then obviously the surroundings within our communities whether
they be school, whether they be spiritual activities, whatever
there may be, that we cannot separate those from the economic
and the environmental injustices. And I have to say again, as
we said at the first People of Color Summit, that
environmental racism is still, sisters and brothers, alive and
well in this country, and we have to break the bondage of
institutionalized racism to make sure that the kind of issues
that we are talking about are not only pulled together for a
minute or two to try to come to solutions to our issues but
very, very clearly that the institutions that have been in
charge of the institutionalization of racism in this country
have to be dismantled. And I think that we have, through the
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possibilities through this Administration, to maybe -- to do
some of that change.
I would also like, sisters and brothers, to welcome
our new Administrator, who will be joining us today in this
meeting.
And as I turn this over and move forward, and I say
that although I have gotten older and we have gotten older,
and the environmental justice movement has gotten older, that
not no one has the -- just the answers for many of the
communities, for many of the impacts that our communities are
being impacted by. And I say this to you because we have seen
in the past new Administrations and we have seen in some cases
Administrations saying that "I understand your problems, and
we have appointed people that understand your problems" and so
on. And that still today we say that the inclusion of
grassroots people at all levels of decision making that are
impacting our lives, that we have to be cautious within this
new period of time that grassroots voices, that grassroots
decision making, that grassroots participation across the
board is included in all of the decision making processes and
so on that impact not only our communities but impact, as I
said, the workplaces that surround many of our communities.
So it has not just has been to us that, as we said,
that it is not in our backyard and put it in somebody else's
backyard as we clean up communities and so on throughout this
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country today. But it is about also what takes place not only
in our communities but in this world.
So I challenge this Administration, and I challenge
this NEJAC Council, and I challenge our new appointed entities
to not only the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, but to
all the agencies and the arms of the U.S. Federal government,
that we challenge you today to seize the opportunity with us,
not separate than us, but the opportunity with us, to make
solid change not only in our communities, to build and make
our communities a better place for us to live, but for our
cities to be a better place, for our states to be a better
place, for this country to be a better place, and for this
world to be a better place. And that is the challenge that we
will be taking on partially within this agenda today.
There is no way that we can separate the health
disparities, the health consequences, those health-related
issues. In some cases, where we have taken steps forward but
we still see, in some cases, cancer clusters and lupus
clusters. We also see, still see, in many cases farmworkers
in this country that are working in very, very unhealthy
situations. We could go on and on with African-American
communities and Latino communities, maybe even indigenous
communities, maybe even Pacific islander communities, and
other communities of color, and also other communities of
working class and poor, low-income communities throughout this
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country.
So I don't want to take up a lot of time to you
today, but I want us to remember, sisters and brothers, if we
can, those that have afforded us the opportunity for us to be
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sitting at the 15 year of the NEJAC Council. And as Victoria
said, however many meetings and meetings and meetings and
conference calls later, that is our sisters and brothers in
our community that have given up their lives, some in some
cases fighting environmental injustice to make justice a word
that not only that is just said and pronounced, but justice a
real word and a practice that takes place in our community and
our communities throughout this country.
So, lastly, as I say to you, and I have had, as I
said, the opportunity to do a lot of thinking throughout this
period of time.
I have set back, and my friends and my colleagues
and others that have meant a lot to me, to our organizations,
to the telephone calls that I have received, from the emails
that I have received, from emails not only from NEJAC Council
members but from others throughout this country and throughout
the world.
I say to you, as we discuss the emerging issues:
Let us not forget where we came from. We know it is not just
rhetoric to say that if we don't know where we came from, then
in fact we don't know where we are going.
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So -- and so today's agenda, then, then I ask, as
that -- as we discuss EPA policies and activities, the impact
of NEJAC recommendations, that let us not shelve many of those
recommendations that were made throughout the NEJAC Council.
And I know Tim will be reporting back on this and has had
several discussions not only with NEJAC Council members but
with others, from grassroots, academic communities, from the
business community, or the stakeholders in this process, that
those recommendations -- in many cases, either fortunately or
unfortunately, whichever way we view to take a look at it --
that many of those recommendations that were not implemented
by Administrations and by the U.S. Environmental Protection
Agency, still stand as firm as they did then, and as I say,
fortunately or unfortunately, still stand firm today,
recommendations, documents that were produced, and so on.
Now I don't want to take up a lot of your time
and -- but I have to say, sisters and brothers, I have to say
to you: As we discuss emerging issues and as we really look
at some of these -- some of the consequences and so on, that
when we discuss climate change, that we need to remember that
our movement, climate justice, climate injustice, climate
racism, climate whatever it is called, that, yes, we need to
make decisions around climate change but around climate
j ustice.
But, very, very clearly, sisters and brothers, it is
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important to us in grassroots communities that you understand
that the solutions, the consequences of decisions that this
Council makes and recommendations that this Council makes that
is going to impact our communities, then grassroots groups
should be involved in all levels, as I said, of decision
making when we are discussing these issues, when we are
discussing green jobs.
When we are discussing green jobs, we have to
remember in fact that not only in some cases but for
generations, for generations, many of our communities, and
rural communities and in urban communities have come up with
solutions. Let us not forget the history. Let us not forget
the commitment. Let us not forget the lives that have been
given up in order to us to fulfill these opportunities.
So when were discussing green jobs, let what about
them, all the other pieces that go along with it? Where, in
some cases, are these facilities going to be located at? Yes,
sisters and brothers, we are about solutions. But we are not
going to bear the brunt, we are not in our communities going
to bear the brunt, again, of anything else that everybody did
not want to nurture 	. That is not the way it is going to
be.
And when we discuss green jobs, we need to be
discussing green jobs from a proactive standpoint. And I will
say to you, around the issue of green jobs, that very, very
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clearly -- very, very clearly -- that we need a definition,
and grassroots communities will help to develop that
definition of what a green job is -- sustainability, economic
development, and all the other pieces that go with that.
And then again, as we move forward and I begin to
close out with you, green chemical policy. We have been
accused in grassroots communities and EJ communities of not
coming up with solutions. But we are not solution people. We
are just complainers. We sit and we nag and we complain and
we cry and we do all those kind of things. Green chemical
policy is a solution to environmental justice. It is one
avenue of a solution to environmental injustice to correct the
environmental injustices. And I hope that we take up, when we
look at emerging issues, that we take up that.
I say to you my last, sisters and brothers, in my
comments, I say to you that in Native indigenous communities
throughout the -- not only as I say the Southwest, but
throughout this country -- uranium, as we begin to talk about
uranium mining: What about our sisters and brothers on
pueblos and reservations and those communities that are
surrounding many of those areas, both urban and rural
communities? What about the years upon years upon years upon
years of sickness and illness because of mining uranium in and
on and around many communities, both rural communities,
indigenous communities, and so on throughout this country?
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We need to clean up the mess we have already made
before we go on making decisions about how much more mess we
are going to make and we are going to get people in. So
uranium mining, indigenous communities, along with many, many
other issues are important to us.
I have to say to you that the U.S.-Mexico border, as
all of you in the room know, that the Mexico-U.S. border and
many places have been said by regional offices of the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency and other agencies that the
Mexico-U.S. border does not have environmental justice issues.
And if we don't have environmental justice issues, then what
about the siting of those facilities both on the Mexico side
of the border and on the U.S. side of the border that are
poisoning our sisters and brothers and colonials up and down
the Mexico-U.S. border? Let us not forget the Mexico-U.S.
border issue, and the move towards to move forward around
trade and so on.
So, I want to say to you that, yes, yes, many of the
issues continue. And I commend and congratulate you, as I
close out my comments, for the terrific commitment, for the
absolute terrific commitment that many of you have made to
environmental injustice, working to make our communities and
our workplaces a just place for all of us to work and to live.
With that said -- and I could go on and on, and you
know, even in my getting older a little bit, quite frankly, my
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commitment, our commitment, to the building of this movement
has been very crucial to this piece.
So I would like to take this opportunity to
introduce our new Acting Chairs of the NEJAC, and I will say
to you that I very clearly appreciate Elizabeth and John's
both personal and professional commitment to environmental
justice issues. As you all know, or may not know, that we
have been working together over the last several months in
preparation for this meeting. We have been conference calling
at least once a week for the last several months to move this
agenda and to move these issues forward. So I commend both
John and Elizabeth for agreeing to act in this capacity as Co-
Chairs for this meeting.
And sisters and brothers, I say from the bottom of
my heart that now is the time, now is the time, where regions
that have been not working together with each other in concert
with community groups and community organizations, that now is
the time, that now is the time that we have the opportunity to
get new leadership in many of the regional offices throughout
this country.
But with all of that said, and with all of that
done, that at the end of the day for me, that if we don't
learn the lessons, if we do not accept the lessons that were
already learned, and we continue to make errors -- it is like
my Mama told me. She said, "My son, if you make a mistake one
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time, it was an honest mistake. My son, if you make the same
mistake the twice time -- the second time, then in fact you
never learned from the first time. And, my son, I tell you
with the most sincerity and most heart and well-giving that I
can give to you, you do it the third time, then in fact I am
going to question whether anything about the first time meant
anything or anything about the second time meant anything."
So I say that we have the opportunity. But as we
say in our communities: "If you can't see it, if you can't
touch it, if you can't smell it, or if you can't taste it,
then in fact, then what realities and what changes have taken
place in our communities?"
So we know that the NEJAC Council is an advisory
council to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Yes, we
very clearly understand. It is a FACA, it is a Federal
advisory committee. We understand that.
But, sisters and brothers, in closing, I say to you
that it is time for change. It has been time for change. But
let us not go backwards. Let us go forwards. Backwards,
never. Forward, ever. And, thank you, sisters and brothers,
and I wish you the best from the bottom of my heart for a very
successful meeting. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
MS. ROBINSON: Thank you, Richard. Elizabeth?
(Applause)
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Comments
by Elizabeth Yeampierre, Co-Chair
MS. YEAMPIERRE: (Speaking Native language). I am
humbled and honored to have an opportunity to co-chair this
NEJAC for a number of reasons. But before I do that, I want
to extend a heartfelt thank you to Richard Moore for his
leadership, his sacrifice, his relentless commitment to
building community power, and always calling the question on
behalf of our people.
The movement has become more sophisticated. We are
the sons and daughters of the civil rights movement, and as we
have become older and as we have become more sophisticated, it
has become a real sexy movement for a lot of people who feel
that they want to speak on behalf of our people who are the
contemporary missionaries that want to treat our people like
passive recipients of service when a basic tenet of
environmental justice is the fact that we speak for ourselves,
that there is value in that, that the fact that leadership in
our community has to look like our community if we are ever
going to address issues of environmental remediation and build
community power and ownership over decisions that have been
made that have really destroyed our communities.
I believe that most of the people who are here are
here because there is nothing more fundamental than the right
to breathe, because without it, we can't fight against police
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abuse, we can't fight for housing, for better education for
our children that the constricted air passages of our children
are so fundamental that it is that serious.
And Richard and many of the people in the
environmental justice movement who have served to provide us
with a foundation that is based on principles that were well
thought out, that really reflect the thinking, the struggle,
of people from all over the United States, really need to be
thanked and need to be recognized as people who have really
sacrificed much to make it possible for our children to do
that. So I would like you to recognize his leadership and
give him a round of applause.
(Applause)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I mentioned that I am really
honored and proud to be here.
I am from Brooklyn, New York, and I run an
organization called UPROSE, which is Brooklyn's oldest Latino
community-based organization, and I am President of the New
York City Environmental Justice Alliance, which is a citywide
coalition that has been addressing issues of environmental
justice in New York City since 1991.
I think that it is absolutely correct that we are at
a time that is very different than the times we have lived in
in the past. Just a few weeks ago, environmental justice
leaders from all over the country had the opportunity to meet
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with Nancy Sutler, Hilda Solis, Van Jones. We had the
opportunity to come and talk about the issues that are
affecting our communities.
We have got Lisa Jackson as our Administrator, we
have got Obama as our President. We have an access and an
opportunity that we have never had before.
And since it has become so popular, we need to make
sure that while we are doing this that we are building the
capacity on the ground, that we do have the resources to make
it possible for our people to step up and to continue to
transform the landscape of our communities the way that they
have done and the lives of our people.
We also are aware that for years now, many folks who
didn't have the ability to serve our communities the way that
they wanted to can do that now, that the shackles are off and
that this is a new time. And so we know that if you were
working for a city agency, state agencies, or Federal
government and you were there because the civil rights
struggle made it possible for you to be there, that your
responsibility is to work in partnership with us and to make
sure that we bring some relief to our communities and that we
are able to move an agenda because that is the right thing to
do because there is so much at stake.
We also know that climate justice is a real issue
for a lot of our communities, particularly waterfront
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communities that have potential storm surge. And so we urge
that people work collectively, that those folks that really
believe that it is their responsibility to speak for us
understand that we can work in collaboration and in solidarity
with each other in a way that is respectful and that lifts up
all of our communities collectively.
I have often said that when people are talking about
taking care of everyone that it is our responsibility to level
the playing field and that we can.
In New York City just recently, there was a
discussion about green jobs and they were talking about "all
New York is this" and "all New York is that." And we said we
need to prioritize communities of color.
We need to prioritize those communities that are
most impacted first because we can't pretend that everything
is the same for everyone. We need to start out with those
communities that are most burdened and level the playing field
before we start talking about "everyone" and talking about
language which looks like it is all-inclusive but is really
meant to diminish the efforts of the communities that are most
impacted.
And we also need to question leadership, I think.
There are a lot of self-appointed leaders, people who are
leaders without a base who are not accountable to anybody. We
are living now in celebrity culture where it is very seductive
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to speak on behalf of a community.
If you run an organization, if you run a campaign,
if you are working on putting together a coalition, the media
loves you, you get a lot of attention, and you start believing
your own press.
Unless you are still committed to building community
power and developing indigenous leadership, unless you are
accountable to people, you are not a leader in the community.
And we need to sort of be aware of the fact that there are
folks that are out there picking people from our communities
to speak on behalf of all of us when in fact there are a lot
of people in our communities who can speak for themselves.
So, I am very proud to be here today and, as I said,
I am very humbled, given where I come from and the struggle
that it has taken to be able to use whatever resources, skills
or God-given talent that I have gotten -- you know, anything
that God has blessed me with -- to be able to build community
power in my community and to be in this base where you are
here to share your struggles, your issues, your concerns,
anything that we can do to make it possible to move the issues
in your community along so that you can have the ability to
say, "You know what? I gave up everything -- and now people
in our community can breathe better."
I am honored to have the opportunity to help
facilitate that. So muchagracia.
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Comments
by John Ridgway
MR. RIDGWAY: Good morning, everybody. I am John
Ridgway with the Washington State Department of Ecology, and
it is an honor for me to be here as well.
It has been a real pleasure and an honor to work
with the Chair, Richard, and Elizabeth, and Charles and
Victoria and many others to get ready for this meeting.
There has been a lot of thought and preparation that
has gone into a really thick agenda here, so I just want to
reiterate what we have already heard from Richard. Richard,
if you are out there, thanks so much for your encouragement to
get us started and thanks for the trust and opportunity to
help lead this meeting today.
I want to thank the staff who have also helped the
contractors to help set up this meeting, and I am sure that it
will make it much more productive as a result of their good
service.
I think that is about it. We have a lot of other
introductions to do here, so Council members, welcome. I look
forward to working with you all and helping this meeting be
productive for all the good reasons we have already heard.
Thanks.
MS. ROBINSON: Now we are going to go around the
table and have all the members introduce themselves -- name,
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organization, where you are located -- and then we will move
on to the next part of the agenda.
But before we go around the table, we do have one
member who is here, but she is not here sitting at the table.
I would like to point out that Jolene Catron is sitting in the
back of the room, waving her hand, and she has in her arms the
newest member of the struggle, her newborn -- one-month-old
son, and she really felt it was important to be here, so she
came out a month after having a baby and to come to the
meeting. So she will be joining us at the table, but later
on, but she wanted to have a little bit more quiet time back
there.
So, we will go ahead and start around the table. We
will have Don, who is one of our newest members of the
NEJAC -- this is his first meeting -- Don Aragon.
(Committee members introduce themselves)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Before we go on, I would like to
introduce someone -- Charles Lee. We will give Charles an
opportunity to address all of us.
Charles, as many of you know, is someone who has
made history in the environmental justice movement, not only
documenting our struggles but who has really played a major
role in making sure that this body exists and that there is a
liaison between our grassroots communities and the Federal
government.
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Charles is the -- is Director of the EPA Office of
Environmental Justice.
And then I would like to remind the members that
unfortunately we have to keep our comments brief because we
have a really long agenda, so, Charles?
MR. LEE: You know what? Why don't we have
everybody introduce themselves and then -- you know, I have a
few short remarks then.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay.
MR. LEE: Just let me say, you know, Mathy
Stanislaus, who is the new Assistant Administrator for the
Office of Solid Waste and Emergency Response, is here, and we
-- he requested an opportunity to really dialogue with you, so
we want to keep this period short so we have the opportunity
to talk with him.
(Committee member continue introductions)
Comments
by Charles Lee
MR. LEE: Well, thank you. I am going to be real
quick because, like I said, we want to give as much of our
time as possible to Mathy, to dialogue with you.
4— u
So I do want to also welcome you to this, the 26
meeting of the NEJAC. And I think it is fair to say that we
do so with a sense of great enthusiasm and a renewed sense of
purpose.
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The fact that Barack Obama is our first African-
American President and Lisa Jackson is our first African-
American EPA Administrator, you know, just is a part of the
fact that, you know, there is really history being made.
And Administrator Jackson has said over and over again that
she wants to make environmental justice part of everything
that we do here at EPA. And I think what you will see over
the next three days are examples of that. And she does have a
vision about how to take environmental justice to an entirely
new level at EPA. And for those -- many of us here, I think
it is fair to say that -- and especially for those of us whose
work on environmental justice for most of our professional
lives, this is indeed a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I
don't think those are -- that is an overstatement.
So, a couple of things just to get us on track.
We -- I do want to ask that you -- some forbearance
on your part in terms of there are going to be changes in the
schedule. Part of what is going on, and I guess it is an
example of the kind of reinvigoration of environmental
justice, or reinvigoration of activities at EPA, is the fact
that there are actually three major meetings going on. There
is the National Environmental Justice Advisory Council.
There is also going to be this afternoon, between about 1:00
and 3:30 this afternoon, the Environmental Justice Executive
Steering Committee, which is the senior leadership body around
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environmental justice at EPA will be meeting as well. Also,
concurrent to this NEJAC meeting, the Tribal Operations
Committee is meeting, and so a lot of the -- the Administrator
and a lot of the Assistant Administrators and Deputy Assistant
and Regional Administrators are going to be shuttling back and
forth.
Also, I think today there is a celebration of the
4— u
100 anniversary of the Department of Justice's -- the
founding of the Division of Environment and Natural Resources
at DOJ. The Congressional Black Caucus is going to have this
afternoon at 4:30 a Green Round Table. And there are many
other events.
So, lots of things are happening here in Washington,
DC.
The agenda that you see is -- and I am not going to
go over it with you. I was going to, but I am not going to go
over it with you, so we can do so along the way. The -- it is
-- so we will do so along the way.
But it is an example of the kind of energy that
exists and many of the specific issues that are -- that we
want to bring to you to get your input are examples of many
offices at EPA coming forward to want to engage with the
NEJAC. And especially so, you are going to see tomorrow --
you are going to have a session tomorrow morning with the EJ
Executive Steering Committee around its priority issues and
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concerns that you may have.
And certainly, like Richard said, the Emerging
Issues discussion is a very important one for us because on
the one hand, there are a lot of things that are beginning to
happen; on the other, I think it is fair to say that the
overall agenda for environmental justice at EPA is still in
formation, and so getting your input on that is going to be
really important.
So I would stop there and to turn it over to Mathy
Stanislaus. Like I said, we are really thrilled that he has
just been appointed and confirmed as the new Assistant
Administrator for the Office of Solid Waste and Emergency
Response.
Mathy has been a friend to me and to many of you who
are long-time and he is, among other things, a former member
of the NEJAC. He is a former Co-Chair of the New York City
Environmental Justice Alliance and a founder -- a founding
member, or founding partner, for an organization that supports
communities in doing Brownfields redevelopment, new partners
for the community revitalization.
So, with that, I would turn it over to you, Mathy.
Welcome from Former NEJAC Member
by Mathy Stanislaus
MR. STANISLAUS: Thank you, Charles, and thanks,
everyone, for inviting me. And, Charles, you forgot to
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mention I believe I am the first 	 that is the AA for OSWER.
I have to go back and check that.
(Laughter)
MR. STANISLAUS: I am really sorry about that!
I am especially pleased to join you here today
because it feels like I have come full circle and I have come
back home again. I have spent the better part of my career
working with communities that suffer from the clustering of
contaminated sites, waste facilities, high levels of
pollution, and yet are often invisible to the government
offices and programs that are supposed to help them.
I have the greatest respect for the tireless work of
community leaders around the country who fight for
environmental justice.
I want to first thank the community leaders and
environmental justice advocates for your tireless and
committed work. Like you, I have long waited to make a
difference so people can begin to see that pollution is being
remediating, air is being cleaned, and neighborhoods are on
track to become healthier.
The decades of decision that have collectively
contributed to create the excessive pollution levels and
unhealthy conditions in environmental justice communities will
require all stakeholders to struggle together to find
solutions.
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A few years ago, I served on NEJAC's Waste and
Facility Siting Subcommittee and chaired the Waste Transfer
Station Working Group. My work with community leaders,
environmental justice organizations such as the New York City
Environmental Justice Alliance, and the NEJAC helped form the
foundation that led me to be appointed as OSWER'S Assistant
Administrator.
It is also bittersweet that I address you today in
my new capacity on the day that we remember the great work of
my friend Luke Cole.
Because of the road that I have traveled, I believe
that I have a special responsibility in my new job to
emphasize environmental justice. I want to assure you that I
will be working in strong partnership with Assistant
Administrator Cynthia Giles and all of the other officers of
EPA to strengthen environmental justice in EPA programs.
But I need your help. In the months ahead, I will
be looking to the NEJAC and community leaders around the
country and our other representatives and stakeholders to lend
a hand with the challenges that are sure to come.
Transparent government processes that are open and
understandable to the people that will be affected by them are
one of the hallmarks of good government. That is a principle
I heartily endorse, not only because I believe it, but because
President Obama and EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson demand it.
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If I may quote from a memo sent out by Administrator
Jackson this past April:
"In all its programs, EPA will provide the fullest
possible public participation in decision making. This
requires not only that EPA remain open and accessible to those
representing all points of view but also that EPA offices
responsible for decisions take affirmative steps to solicit
the views of those who will be affected by these decisions.
These include communities of color, Native Americans, people
disproportionately impacted by pollution, small businesses,
cities and towns working to meet their environmental
responsibilities and others who have been historically
underrepresented in EPA decision making. EPA will not accord
privileged status to any special interest, nor will it accept
any recommendation or proposal without careful, critical and
independent examination."
These are powerful and unambiguous words, and I
intend to follow them to the letter.
I also commit to uphold the core EJ principle that
those who are impacted by environmental injustice and EPA
decisions must have a leadership role at the decision making
table. And the table, and the process of getting to the
table, must be designed to insure authentic participation by
community residents.
Given the broad range of OSWER'S responsibilities
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are the looking for your input on a host of issues. Some of
these I will raise now.
A number of stakeholders, including some of you here
today, have expressed concern about a 	 change published
last fall known as the definition of solid waste, or DSW rule.
Both in a petition submitted to the Agency on the rule and in
public comments at a meeting we held last month, we heard
stakeholder concerns that the Agency did not adequately
address environmental justice in the rule making. I very much
appreciate your concerns, and having worked with communities
impacted by waste facilities, I understand them.
I am committing you -- I am committed to you today
that we will be conducting an environmental justice analysis
of the rule before deciding how to move forward. We will
involve all interested stakeholders and particularly those who
may be potentially impacted by the rule making.
As we conduct this analysis, we will also utilize
the expertise of both EPA and external experts on how to do
environmental justice analysis. In fact, I expect that as we
work through this together, we will learn a great deal of how
to do a quality analysis, and I hope that it can be a model
for the future. Please provide recommendations how best to
engage the NEJAC in this analysis.
A few other issues I would like to highlight.
First, EPA's 2009-2014 strategic plan. We are
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required by law to redo our strategic plan every three years,
and we are in the process of doing that right now.
Since our plan affects disadvantaged communities in
so many ways, I look forward to hearing from you what we
should say about it and your ideas in the plan whenever
possible.
Second, school siting. As required by the Energy
Independence and Security Act of 2007, EPA is part of a task
force writing voluntary guidelines to provide tools to local
communities with respect to the safe siting of schools. These
guidelines are also intended to alleviate the historic
disparities among schools in different socioeconomic and
ethnic communities and to set forth mechanisms for community
involvement whenever new schools are built or old ones
renovated.
Third, automobile sector bankruptcy issues. In the
coming months, I believe we are all going to have to address
the clean-up and re-use issues related to the properties left
behind by bankrupt automobile manufacturers, part suppliers,
and dealers. Since these properties are often located in the
heart of communities and sometimes in disadvantaged
communities, they contribute to economic blight, environmental
and public health problems. I need your advice on what EPA
can do to improve local governments' capacity to clean up
these properties, if needed, and get them back into
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economically productive use.
And then there is one of the biggest issues of all:
The clean-up of contaminated properties through the Superfund
and RCRA programs. There are some that view Superfund as just
a technical and legal process. In some cases, this has led to
community involvement being marginalized.
While Superfund decisions involve scientific and
legal considerations, these decisions must begin and end with
the local community. I ask your advice on how EPA can do a
better job communicating information, engaging communities,
and involving them in decisions.
About a month ago, in one of my first official acts
as Assistant Administrator, I handed out the Environmental
Justice Award at the annual awards ceremony for our regional
offices. This year's award went to the team from EPA's Region
IV and the U.S. Corps of Engineers.
Let me tell you what they did. The team was asked
to help a community facing every conceivable disadvantage
associated with a Superfund site. Low-income and minority
families, many of whom who had lost their jobs when a wood-
treating company went bankrupt, a historic neighborhood, home
to their families for generations because years ago it was one
of the few areas in Pensacola where African-Americans could
buy property. At the same time, an industrial neighborhood
that had been polluted for decades. A Superfund site that had
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been on the national priorities list for 15 years. And
finally, the necessity of moving dozens of those families into
different permanent housing in different neighborhoods. This
was a recipe for very bad feelings.
Yet, the Region IV team helped the community carry
out this relocation with a level of caring, sensitivity and
attention to detail that won over the hearts of the people.
They met with each resident individually in advance of
relocation negotiations. They attended the neighborhood
association's monthly meetings. They paid special attention
to the special needs of the elderly, the disabled, and HUD
subsidized tenants. They established ties with the city,
county and state agencies and the local Chamber of Commerce.
They provided site tours and information at the site. And
they got results.
Overall, residents were relocated into better
quality housing, and when all the dust settled, the relocated
residents were so pleased that they hosted a farewell and
thank-you barbecue for the team.
This was an extraordinary achievement and the award
was richly deserved.
However, I expect that this kind of service to be
given to every single community that experiences a clean-up
under my leadership at OSWER. I expect the extraordinary to
become ordinary. And with your help, that will happen.
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Tomorrow, the Environmental Justice Steering
Committee, comprised of the Agency's Deputy Assistant
Administrators and Deputy Regional Administrators, will talk
to you about their key priorities. These priorities touch all
communities, especially those in disadvantaged, rural and
tribal land. Your input on these priorities is vital to their
success, and I encourage you to speak up loud and clear.
Unfortunately, I can't stay for your entire meeting
because I am participating in two other community-based
partnerships today and tomorrow. I want to first assure you
that I will continue to provide access and transparency that
you deserve to me.
During my absence, if you have any questions or want
to get word to me regarding a pressing issue, please see
Antoinette Powell-Dixon, Marsha Minter and Pat Carey. If you
can all stand up, if you are in the room? Okay. And they
will be here all day.
And again, I want to thank you for participating in
this meeting and I would really like to take this opportunity
to hear from you, anything that I have raised or anything I
didn't raise.
So I turn it back, open to you,
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you, Mathy, very much. I
appreciate that.
(Applause)
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Questions and Answers
MR. RIDGWAY: So we have an opportunity for a few
moments to ask Mathy of any questions from the Council
members. And just logistically, I want to remind folks to put
your cards up on their sign to let us know if you are
interested in a comment or a question and we will try to keep
track of those cards as best we can between Elizabeth and me.
So, I am going to start over here with Wynecta,
please.
MS. FISHER: Good morning, Mathy -- Matty?
MR. STANISLAUS: You pronounce it "Matty."
MS. FISHER: Okay, Mathy.
MR. STANISLAUS: The whole first name is (away from
microphone)	
MS. FISHER: Oh! Thank you for coming. And
actually I have been working with Pat on an issue, but I
wanted to raise a concern that we have in the New Orleans
area.
There is a company that is trying to put the very
first plasma gasification facility in our city along a
waterway near an environmental justice community -- or I
should actually say in an environmental justice community.
The community and I have been searching for
information on gasification and we haven't really been able to
find anything. And so when you oppose something, you can't
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just say "we think it is a bad idea." You have got to come
with something else.
There are two gasification facilities. One is in
Japan, one is in Germany. And the response that the community
and I have been getting is, well, it works there, although we
know our waste stream is different.
This company is going to accept waste initially from
nine other parishes, and of course in order for it to operate
and be profitable, it will then begin to accept waste from
other parts of the country. So I will be contacting your
office a lot to get some technical assistance.
MR. STANISLAUS: So 	 is it a waste gasification
facility?
MS. FISHER: Yes, sir.
MR. RIDGWAY: Omega?
MR. WILSON: My question has to do with solid waste
areas that are not sited or not listed.
In the area where I am in North Carolina and
throughout the South, there is a history of mills and plants
that were built literally by slaves, and a lot of those
facilities and buildings still stand. And there is a great
effort to put housing in some of these facilities that
actually should be torn down because of contamination in these
facilities and the waste in and around these facilities in the
ground and above ground.
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The question has to do with: What is going to be
done to identify these sites and facilities that are historic,
that, you know, pre-date the Office of Environmental Justice
or EPA or a lot of other Federal programs, to identify these
sites and rectify these, clean up these sites where you have
local governments and businesses and corporations who are
actually seeking Federal monies to build housing on top of
unmarked landfills and other kinds of facilities that should
be bulldozed and specified as environmental hazard zones?
MR. STANISLAUS: I would like to know more about the
specific situation. One of the things that, in respect to
Federal government's financing of housing, we could, as part
of the due diligence, pay special attention to certain areas
that have these kinds of formerly used landfills, and maybe I
will ask Pat or somebody to figure out whether we can identify
this up front so that can be as part of the evaluation of
process of where housing should go or shouldn't go. And I
will ask Pat if they can follow up on that, okay?
MR. RIDGWAY: Shankar?
DR. PRASAD: Mathy, thank you for coming and giving
your comments, and it is nice to see that you came to the
table with some specifics about what you are planning to do in
terms of some of the subject areas that you want to deal with.
And you -- and I am glad to see that you are retaking that
issue of the EJ analysis of these rules.
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But EJ analysis, just on the -- as a part of
something NEJAC -- NEJAC has a working group which is
specifically looking how the EJ analysis that is being
practiced or being talked about in OECA and EPA, which is
called the EJSEAT. Is it good or not good at how it be
improved so there is a specific work group?
So before committing yourself a specific set of
analysis, I strongly urge your staff to concert with that work
group and see how it can be improved, or is that the right
approach, or are there some other approaches to proceed on
that, since that seems to be in the -- your short-term agenda?
MR. STANISLAUS: Okay. Now, what is the name of
that work group?
DR. PRASAD: EJSEAT working group.
MS. ROBINSON: Actually, it is the NEJAC's National
Consistent EJ Screening Approaches work group. They are
addressing EJCs, but also looking at it from the standpoint of
nationally consistent EJ screening approaches.
MR. LEE: Thank you for raising that. And I just
wanted to make sure that, you know, Mathy knows, and, you
know, a lot of this is -- there are many things happening, so
there is a lot of coordination that needs to be done, but, you
know, as one of the questions, as we move forward in terms of
the application of EJC or something like it, it is really
important that there be discussions so that there is
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consistency among all the different offices because it would
not be good if, you know, OSWER or in the Office of Air and
OECA and the Office of Water are all doing different things.
So that is something we do need to follow up on.
MR. RIDGWAY: Chris, please.
MR. HOLMES: How do you do? Congratulations.
MR. STANISLAUS: Thank you.
MR. HOLMES: On your question about how EPA can do a
better job in communicating with communities, I spent a lot of
time working in the Houston ship channel area. And what
struck me -- and I also spent a lot of time working in OSWER
at EPA with Tim Fields and a number of my other friends -- and
these community issues are so focused on liquid and solid
wastes because they are tangible and you can see them, and a
lot of work has been done in the past.
But it is the airborne pollutants that I think are
of great concern also obviously to communities. But the
challenge to communicate to them as to really what is in the
air and what is in their system and these really troublesome
issues like endocrine disruption and what does that mean, and
then relating all of that back to air monitoring technology,
to Title V permits, and opening up those permits so as to
educate them as to what is in there is a huge and almost
intractable challenge.
But I think it is a tremendous opportunity, and I
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personally think I can do, based on my experience -- I would
love to share it with you -- but beyond that, you have
wonderfully competent people in the Agency who are all on top
of this. It is just a question -- you are spread so thin in
terms of all your demands.
But I do hope that as you move ahead that the air
side of this issue gets more and more attention.
MR. STANISLAUS: Thank you.
MR. HOLMES: Okay.
MR. STANISLAUS: So I just want to be clear. I
think what I heard, and correct me if I am wrong, that we
should figure out how to do better risk communication,
particularly of airborne pollutants.
MR. HOLMES: Absolutely.
MR. STANISLAUS: Right.
MR. HOLMES: But also just to belabor that for a
second, it also gets back to some discussion earlier about
clusters, and cancer clusters. You know, you look at those
cluster maps and you get into all the debates about, well, you
know, is it due to an aging population, diet, power plant, et
cetera? But coming up a way -- in a way in which one can more
factually examine those clusters is really important, and I
think there is a lot of work ahead in that area.
MR. RIDGWAY: Hilton?
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. Hello, Mathy.
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Congratulations, new appointment.
Yes, I just wanted to put on the table that, you
know, there is a pressing issue when it comes to start-up and
shut-down of refineries and chemical plants, not just in Port
Arthur, and this is why I am putting it out there on the
table, but around our country.
There is an issue when it comes to the amount of
emissions that are being released and the types of chemicals
that are not being counted when it comes to the tonnage that
is being released each year from these type of facilities
throughout our nation. And I think we should take a closer
look at the calculations when it comes to start-up and shut-
down and find ways in which we can calculate those emissions
into the process.
And also, we need to take a closer look also at the
ability of some companies to be able to solicit the
importation of toxic wastes that have been banned for years
out of our country and it is illegal to bring in. For
instance, like PCBs. PCBs are not to be imported or
transported into this country or across this country, but yet
down in Southeast Texas there is an incinerator facility that
has petitioned the Region VI EPA to be able to import PCB
wastes from out of this country into Southeast Texas for
incineration. And I think this is happening in other areas as
well.
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But I think we should take a closer look at that as
well because there are other communities as well that are
being looked at to have this type of waste burned or treated
in their community when it has been banned. I don't think we
should allow incinerator facilities or any other companies to
be able to circumvent our Federal laws and dictate to our
government exactly what is going to be done. So we need to
really shore up that hole there. And thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Don, please.
MR. ARAGON: Thank you. Congratulations, Mathy.
Hope and pray that you, you know, you can take the Solid Waste
Office and really make it work on behalf of the Indian tribes
and the reservations.
As you are aware, one of the problems that the
tribes face with solid waste is the lack of clear rules and
regulations in the RCRA where they were basically omitted,
weren't even thought of. And this has caused a lot of
problems for Indian tribes throughout the United States and in
Alaska because of the fact that we can't get any funding to
work with solid waste issues. And we have been meeting on the
EPA since the early 1990s to do something about these rules
and regulations, that we get these unfunded mandates that are
extremely, in a sense, an environmental injustice, because it
really penalizes Indian tribes to come up with the financial
resources to take care of these issues and these problems of
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solid waste. And what I -- why I call it an environmental
injustice, because of the fact that the state has taken --
taxed individuals to come up with monies to support these kind
of activities, whereas Indian tribes don't have that ability,
and it has been a problem.
Indian tribes have all -- Indian reservations have
also been looked at as the place where, if you want to build
an incinerator or store nuclear waste or those type of things,
are real targets, simply because of the fact that the lack of
regulations also invites these kind of activities because they
are -- they can escape the state DEQs, Department of
Environmental Qualities, and their regulations, and come to
the tribes, whereas there may not be any rules or regulations.
Over the past two or three years now, the Tribal
Operations Committee has made solid waste probably its number
two item that needs to be addressed in Indian country. The
first item, of course, is safe drinking water. And a lot of
tribes now have worked on the development of integrated solid
waste management plans and also coming up with solid waste
codes.
We have had to be very innovative in how we fund
these things, and, you know, we have looked outside of the EPA
agency and have gone to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, Indian
Health Services, the USDA, and even the Department of Energy
has assisted Indian tribes in developing these type of things.
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But the lack of support from the EPA is really obvious.
I think that there are many things that you
addressed that, you know, we need to be taking a look at, like
we are also a haven for where people want to dump all of these
old automobiles and stuff like that, tires, waste oil, you
name it. It is a growing problem, and what I would like to
see, Mathy, is if you could get on the agenda of the Tribal
Operations Committee and listen to the tribes and see how you
can work with them better.
MR. STANISLAUS: Okay.
MR. ARAGON: And I really appreciate your efforts.
Thank you.
MR. STANISLAUS: Thank you. I am actually meeting
with the Tribal Caucus this afternoon, so --
MR. RIDGWAY: Charles, and then -- Sue, go ahead,
please.
MS. BRIGGUM: I just wanted to say, hearing your
list, this is a really exciting time to be on the NEJAC. It
is a real honor to have the opportunity.
It is quite wonderful to see you as the head of the
Office of Solid Waste Emergency Response and see Tim Fields,
whom we worked with when we were on the NEJAC doing the waste
transfer report. And so there is obviously a lot of
meaningful work to do and it is wonderful to have someone who
will be working with us and giving us guidance who is so
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incredibly knowledgeable in the subject area. So I think it
is going to be a good time.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Mathy, did you want
to --
MR. STANISLAUS: I don't know if there is anyone --
MR. RIDGWAY: Is there someone else --
MR. LEE: Oh, Jody.
MS. HENNEKE: I can't believe you would skip me,
Charles.
As most of you all know, I have spent the
preponderance of my career in environmental regulatory work
and a good bit of that with environmental justice communities.
Hilton and I go way back, and it is very nice to have somebody
else from Texas here with me because I spent the last number
of years going "but wait, it is a little different in Texas."
As most of you know who have been involved in any of
this discussion regardless whether you are regulator or a
grassroots community person or industry representative, siting
of solid waste facilities if problematic at its very easiest,
and it is not easy in any shape, form or fashion. So it is
very exciting, as Sue said, to be part of this discussion.
As we move forward, in any kind of regulatory
environment, those siting issues are at the very core of every
discussion that we have, regardless of the media, and I am
very privileged to be part of this discussion. And it is even
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more helpful to have someone with whom you are having the
discussion to have the background and experience that you do.
I know oftentimes the communities feel like they
spend way too much of their time with the local and state
regulators educating them and -- or us, I should say -- and we
in the states feel like we spend way too much time having to
educate those of you on the Federal level. So it is very
exciting to have someone here with background. Thank you.
MR. STANISLAUS: Thank you. So I guess I will close
with a concern about scale.
Now, in having served on the NEJAC before is -- and
there has always been a lot of frustration of communities
coming to the NEJAC meetings, raising issues, and there are so
many communities around the country and the NEJAC itself and
EPA itself has a limited ability to deal with individual
community issues. So how can we kind of scale it up to
programmatic solutions, to rule-making solutions, to tools?
Because at the end of it, I think we want to take the
communities that come to NEJAC and come to EPA and use that to
inform agency-wide solutions. And that is one of the things I
really want to focus on, is how can we build, take the lessons
learned, of not only the communities that are going to the
table today, but we have 20 years of experience here, and how
can we take those 20 years to really figure out some scaled-up
solutions? And that is one thing I want to think about. And
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it could take the form of rule-making, larger programmatic
solutions, or even kind of direct tools to help local
communities to deal with these kind of problems.
So, with that, I will close. And thank you very
much.
(Applause)
MR. LEE: I just wanted to add that it was really
great, Mathy, that you talked about Pensacola, Escambia, you
know, in terms of that being a real success story for EPA and
for environmental justice. And, you know, I think this all
goes -- there is a lot of this that goes back to -- if you
remember Margaret Williams? Margaret Williams was from
Pensacola and she was one of the people that was advocating
for relocation and she was on the -- she was a member of the
NEJAC. And the NEJAC had a Superfund relocation roundtable
down there that I think was the catalyst for a lot of the
events that, you know, led to what Mathy talked about. And Tim
and -- Tim Field and Elliot Laws were involved then, and, you
know, out of this came the Superfund relocation policy for
EPA.
So there were a lot of things here. And, you know,
I go through that to say also that part of what the Office of
Environmental Justice wants to do is to transform our
conversation about what it means to be successful with respect
to environmental justice for EPA. And I think Escambia is an
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example of that.
For us, the real measure of success for EPA needs to
be environmental public health results in the EJ communities.
And I think, you know, that is part of our vision going
forward, and I think a lot of things that what we want to do
is to -- you know, is to hold up that as a standard for EJ at
EPA.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, we are going to transition a
little bit. But I want to ask Jolene, way there in the back,
if she has any questions to just raise her hand, and if not,
we will let her be with her brand new boy.
MS.	: (Away from microphone)
MR. RIDGWAY: Yes, and she may have stepped out.
Okay, I am going to wrap this session up. Mathy,
thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Congratulations
on your appointment. You have a very enthusiastic group here
that is looking forward to working with you.
And I will leave with a comment/question that I
think we are going to hear a number of times in the next
couple days, which is: I want you to think about how to
utilize this Council in every way possible. This group is
ready to work with you and provide quality advice. And let us
know. And we will do the same as well.
So again, good luck, congratulations, thanks for
your time this morning, and thanks also for all the
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encouragement that you bring.
Okay, what we are going to is take a short break,
and I do mean short. And one of the things that I am going to
try to do is keep us on track with the agenda as scheduled.
So by that I mean about five minutes here, just long enough to
stretch and hit a restroom if you need to, and then we are
going to come back.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Just one thing. At the break,
people waiting for name badges can pick them up at the
registration desk, and I think they can take ten.
MR. RIDGWAY: There you have it. We will go to 10
minutes, so we will start here at 20 minutes to 11:00. Thank
you.
(Break from 10:29 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.)
OEJ Overview
by Charles Lee
MR. LEE: May we have the Council members back to
the chair. I would sure appreciate it. Thank you.
I wanted to ask that Heather Case and Kent Benjamin
and Mustafa Ali and Suzi Ruhl sit at the table. So I guess
some of them are tied up.
Well, in any event, am I cued up for this
presentation?
(Pause)
MR. LEE: Okay. Well, let me just start by saying
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that I guess not everyone is here. Maybe they expect it to
start later.
But I wanted to begin by introducing the senior
staff for the Office of Environmental Justice, and I have
asked them to be part of this conversation, so after I give my
presentation, I wanted them to be part of the dialogue with
you. And so the persons that I wanted to be here are our
Deputy Director who -- Heather Case, who is not in the room
right now, and then Kent Benjamin, who is the Associate
Director for Program Development and Integration, and Mustafa
Ali, who is the Acting Associate Director for Communications
and Stakeholder Involvement, and of course, as he says,
Innovation, and Suzi Ruhl, who is our senior attorney and
policy advisor.
And I also wanted to have all the members of the
staff of the Office of Environmental Justice stand up, and so
everybody can recognize them, if you would do that.
MR.	: I think they are all working.
MR. LEE: They are all working -- right.
And then I also wanted to make sure we -- I asked
the environmental justice coordinators from the headquarter
offices and the regions also stand up so they can be
recognized as well. And they are all working, too, right?
Great. Okay.
And so this is my presentation, and the presentation
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is going to -- I am going to quickly go through this, because
I want to make sure we have as much time for discussion as
possible. It is going to cover the -- our EJ program vision
and mission, our infrastructure and resources, and some -- and
our key strategies.
I will start by saying that about a year and a half
ago when I became the Director of the Office of Environmental
Justice, we set forth to build a program at EPA that was
agency-wide, that was results oriented, that was dynamic and
robust and forward thinking. And part of that was to develop
a vision for the program.
(Slide)
And that vision, as articulated here, has five
elements, and those are to eliminate and prevent
disproportionate environmental and public health burdens, to
build long-term capacity for communities to protect their own
environments, to foster access to environmental benefits to
build healthy and sustainable communities to achieve targeted
tangible or measurable results, and to make environmental
justice part of everything that EPA does.
(Slide)
We know that this vision exists in many ways both at
EPA and out in the communities. And the first example of that
would be Spartanburg, South Carolina, the ReGenesis
Environmental Justice Partnership which took an environmental
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justice small grant of $20,000 in a community with Superfund
and Brownfields sites and has now leveraged over $200,000,000
in public/private funds. And, of course, the environmental
justice leader who was responsible for that is Harold
Mitchell.
(Pause)
(Slide)
The next example of this vision in action -- and
this is a remarkable set of slides. This comes from our air
toxics enforcement. You know, Chris Holmes talked about the
Houston ship channel, and this is outside of Houston, the
Equistar Channelview facilities.
And you could see the blue on the left-hand side is
of the -- where the cancer risk -- denotes cancer risk based
upon air toxics monitoring. And the right side is after the
enforcement. It is the amount of Butadiene emissions was
reduced from 112 tons a year to 32 tons a year. And if you
look on the upper right -- upper left-hand side of the screen,
you see where the community is and you see how the area of
risk no longer affects them.
And like I said before, what we are saying is that
this should be the standard, or the measure of success, for
EPA's efforts around environmental justice, and that is
measurable environmental public health results in EJ or
disproportionately burdened communities.
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(Slide)
Therefore, the Office of Environmental Justice
mission is to improve environmental public health in
environmentally and economically distressed communities by
integrating environmental justice in all the agencies'
programs, policies and activities.
(Slide)
We do have an agency-wide infrastructure -- next
slide -- and the parts of that you could see. And notably a
part of that is the NEJAC, along with the Executive Steering
Committee, the Administrator, the National Program Manager for
Environmental Justice, who you will meet tomorrow, that is
Cynthia Giles of the Executive Steering Committee, OEJ, and
the headquarter regional office staff.
(Slide)
The members of the Steering Committee are on the
next slide, and you can see that later.
(Slide)
The EJ Program Resources are: The Office of
Environmental Justice has 17 FTEs, some of whom you met, and
we now have a budget of $7,100,0000, $3,900,000 as part of our
base, for FY '09, $3,200,000 in our Congressional add-on.
At EPA currently, approximately 30 FTEs are
redirected or dedicated to environmental justice in terms of
being part of the EJ coordinators or EJ teams. And fiscal
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year 2010, because of the additional Congressional
appropriations, OEJ will provide one additional FTE per
region.
And then I think what we want to do in this slide is
to show examples of many programs at EPA, like the CARE
program that you know about, children's health, tribes, lead,
Brownfields, and so on, that we work with that really have a
mission similar to us, to ours, and therefore a lot of
opportunities for collaboration and results. Next slide.
(Slide)
Our key strategies are to establish and build,
implement, agency-wide infrastructure and the Executive
Steering Committee priorities. Next -- why don't you go to
the next slide? And that involves -- that is something that
we will be talking to you about tomorrow, so I am not going to
go into it. Next slide.
(Slide)
To build our collaborative problem solving ability,
particularly in communities and to leverage the kind of new
opportunities which now exist, particularly in terms of green
development and not only from EPA but also on an inter-agency
basis. Next slide.
(Slide)
And obviously, you know, the idea of involving the
historically underrepresented in environmental decision
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making, the NEJAC, there is now I think several, almost a
half-dozen, EJ listening sessions that have taken place since
the beginning of the year. We want to make sure to involve
social networking strategies. And then, lastly, leadership
development in terms of youth and work towards diversity.
One of the issues that we want to talk about later
is the youth voices on the NEJAC. Next slide.
(Slide)
And then incorporating EJ in the rule-making
process. I am not going to go into that in too much detail
because we are going to be talking about it. Next slide.
(Slide)
And then promoting priority-setting, targeting and
measurable results.
Mathy talked about the strategic plan for 2009 to
2014. And one of the things that we want to mention to you is
the fact that the Office of Budget and Management has said
that it may be a good idea that there be environmental justice
targets, or environmental justice-related targets, in all five
EPA strategic plan goals. And that is a big opportunity. It
is a real challenge for us. But it is something that we want
to work towards, and obviously part of those efforts to get
there involve screening, each environmental justice screening,
targeting and reporting, and further development of our tools
for identifying EJ areas of concern like EJSEAT.
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The thing to say about this would be that ultimately
a measure of an organization's commitment to an issue is the
kind of resources it is willing to devote to it.
(Slide)
And so, lastly, we will conclude by saying -- next
slide -- that we believe that environmental justice, as part
of the EPA's mission, helps EPA accomplish that mission more
effectively by focusing attention and resources on the
communities which need them the most.
And what the five strategies we have talked about
briefly are ways to make this happen in a systematic basis.
Thank you.
(Applause)
Questions and Answers
MR. RIDGWAY: Council members, questions for
Charles? Particularly for the new members, this is a great
time to find out some of the nuances behind what Charles just
generally covered. So any questions or comment? Wynecta?
Please.
MS. FISHER: Charles, thank you very much for the
presentation and in inviting your staff, and I look forward to
working with everyone.
I -- you said that you were going to involve the
youth. Have you guys thought about podcasting?
MR. LEE: I would like Mustafa to address that.
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MR. ALI: Yes, we have definitely thought about
podcasting where we are thinking about using wikis. We are
thinking of all the new and innovative tools that are out
there to engage communities.
But we also are quite aware of the fact that we have
to also use some of the traditional methods to reach out to
folks who may not necessarily be a part of some of the newer
technologies that are out there. We are also very aware of
the digital divide and making sure that we address those
issues also.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Wynecta, I would also like to add
to that that we are actually exploring doing podcasting for
selected sessions of this NEJAC meeting. We are looking at
seeing what is involved and we had hoped to be able to maybe
be able to podcast, be the first Federal advisory committee at
EPA to actually have post-up podcast of selected sessions. So
we are currently actually working on that for the NEJAC
meeting itself.
MS. FISHER: And I forgot about Twitter.
MR. ALI: With Twitter also, and we are also looking
at the opportunities around YouTube also.
MS. FISHER: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Next, I am going to recognize Omega,
but before I do that, I do want the Council members to just
remind the audience of who you are. Somebody came up to me in
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the break and asked that we make it clear who is speaking. So
if you can just give your name before you go ahead with your
comments, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks. Omega?
MR. WILSON: Omega Wilson, West End Revitalization
Association.
I am not a brand new Council member, but I just want
to raise a question. Maybe it is going to be addressed later
on this afternoon by the Administrator.
But the question has to do with, of course, we are
EPA here. And a lot of the issues that we deal with have to
do -- environmental issues, environmental justice issues have
to do with other branches of the government. And as part of
the plan, the things that you just mentioned, Charles, could
you tell us a little bit more about bridging those gaps
because a lot of environmental justice issues are not solved
or resolved or addressed because we know that EPA can't do it
by itself and we have other branches of government who play a
major part in addressing environmental issues and the laws
that are related to it or underpinning and they are not
operative at the ground level because those other branches of
the government are not necessarily at the table the way they
should be? Can you talk about: What is going to be done to
create a true inter-agency activity for environmental
justice ?
MR. LEE: Well, let me just say that that is a great
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question and that is a question we want to dialogue with you
about in our emerging issues session. And that on the one
hand I will say that it is not all fully fleshed out what that
-- how -- what that means and how to go about doing that. And
certainly, you know, asking the Administrator will be a great
-- you know, great idea.
I will say that there are emerging a lot of efforts
and opportunities to work with other Federal agencies, like,
for example, you know, recently the Department of
Transportation, Housing and Urban Development and EPA, the
Secretaries of HUD and Secretaries Donovan and LaHood and
Administrator Jackson announced a partnership for sustainable
communities, and a lot of that addresses environmental justice
issues.
There are -- there is a lot of outreach to other
Federal agencies. And so there are, you know, different
examples of this. But we do want to have a much more in-depth
discussion around this.
MR. RIDGWAY: Chuck?
MR. BARLOW: Thanks. Chuck Barlow, Enterty
Corporation.
I just wanted to mention, Charles, that, you know,
we always look when we are doing environmental justice, or
when I am doing environmental justice training, and I am
usually talking to people who work in some sort of business
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somewhere, and I do a lot of it internally, do some of it
externally. And we are all -- it is sometimes hard to take
environmental justice, which is -- there are a lot of branches
to it, there are a lot of pieces of it, and we try to pull it
together, and maybe somebody has given us 15, you know, or 20
minutes to make a presentation and say "This is what we are
talking about, this is what we are concerned about."
But I just want to say that I think that the last
slide that you had up which says "Environmental justice helps
EPA accomplish its mission more effectively by focusing
attention on resources and resources on communities which need
them most" -- I have probably seen that statement somewhere
before, but I think that is a fabulous statement.
I think that is a statement that people -- you know,
when people like me can take to folks who don't work a lot in
the EJ but I am trying to get them to think about it, I am
trying to, you know, sort of pry their brains open and make
this one of the things that they think about in new projects
or siting a project or something like that, I think that is a
cross-cutting statement.
I just wanted to commend you for it -- you or
whoever wrote it. It is just a really, really good statement,
and I think it would help people who -- like I said, people
who don't deal with EJ a lot to realize -- wait a minute, this
makes sense, this is something that can help us make good
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decisions whether it be decisions for a community, decisions
for an agency, or decisions for a company, because they have
all really got to work together to make something like this
prosper.
MR. LEE: You know -- thank you for that. The -- I
think what that statement represents is -- and that is
actually many, many, many years of, you know, of hard work, of
trying to understand how to make environmental justice part --
have a strong nexus with an agency mission. There is a strong
nexus with EJ and other Federal agencies' missions.
So, you know, at EPA we are saying that
environmental justice is not a separate activity. It is
something that should be part and parcel of what people do on
an everyday basis. We can see how -- and we can promote more
benefits from those kind of activities. Then, you know, I
think we are on our glide path to truly integrating it. So
that is one thing.
Now, I do want to say in response to Omega's last
question, I did overlook a major kind of idea that we are -- a
major project around working with other Federal agencies, and
that is -- you are going to hear from the Executive Steering
Committee about this Environmental Justice Showcase Community
Pilots. And so, Kent, did you want to say something about
that?
MR. BENJAMIN: I don't want to steal their thunder
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tomorrow, but basically the Environmental Showcase Pilots will
be building on what we have learned in all of our community-
based efforts, and part of that is reaching out to other
Federal partners where it is relevant in specific communities
and accessing their resources and educating one another and in
partnership with those governments, the community folks, et
cetera.
MR. LEE: The other real exciting thing I hear about
are the partnerships between EPA and Department of Labor. You
know, particularly, as you know, the Department of Labor
has -- is now seeking grants or applications the Green Jobs
Act, which is $500,000,000, and so there are partnerships
beginning around EPA and Department of Labor that is very
exciting.
So these are just examples of things that can
happen, but a fuller explication of all that and how to go
about it in a way that is truly effective is a conversation we
need to have.
MR. RIDGWAY: Hilton, please.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes, thank you. Once again, my
name is Hilton Kelley with the Community In-power and
Development Association located in Port Arthur, Texas, and I
am the founder and Executive Director of that organization.
One of the things I would just like to reiterate, or
just definitely make sure that it is on the agenda, is that I
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think it is super important that the Environmental Protection
Agency, regional and on the Federal level, look at the
importance of working with the real grassroots organizations
that are out there doing the work. And the reason why I say
the "real grassroots organizations" is because many times,
particularly in our community, some industries will come
together and they will pull people together and they will
create their own industrial advisory panel which somewhat is,
I believe, have a very, I will say, bias opinion of what our
communities look like and what the pollution levels may be.
So whenever you work with grassroots groups, be sure
that you are dealing with people that actually live in that
community, on that fence line.
And also, you know, working with your regional
directors, we have just recently started to build a really
good relationship with Region VI EPA. Shirley Augurson and I,
we are in contact quite a bit, and Ms. Ponder, and we are
really on the right track, I believe. I mean, some time it
can be real difficult because I have protested the EPA and the
regional level, gone to Dallas and held the signs and
disrupted meetings, and I have come to Washington, did the
same thing here.
But I am really happy that we are on this level now
and that there is a more progressive feeling in the room, and
I am really happy to have an opportunity to share some of my
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ideas because if you guys worked closer with the grassroots
organizations that are living in those communities with those
industries in their back yard and really hear what they have
to say, I believe we have more of a chance of bringing
industry to the table and trying to find -- and possibly
finding -- new ways in which we can co-exist together.
But many times what has happened in our communities
is that we were just shut out. Nobody wanted to hear what the
folks had to say on that fence line. And most of the time it
was all about communications. Now that we are starting to
communicate, I believe a lot of those problems can be
eliminated.
So, we have got to eliminate the fear that, you
know, something bad is going to happen if industry start to
weigh too much or sway too much towards the grassroots
organizations we are thinking. We need to learn that it is a
win/win situation.
Whenever you have people living in certain areas
having a better understanding of our industry work and
industry having a better understanding of how community
organizations live, and what we need, instead of just shunning
us and pushing us to the corner, so we need to really work
with the real grassroots groups and be sure to identify that
and make sure that these folks are not on industrial advisory
boards. Thank you.
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MR. LEE: Well, that was really eloquent, Hilton. I
don't know what else I could say in response. But does
anybody want to say anything?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I actually want to add something to
that. I want to echo Hilton's remarks. And there is in the
EJ program vision the statement that says "Build long-term
capacity for communities to protect the environment."
And one of the things that is happening right now
with the economic crisis is that you find that a lot of our
organizations are losing their funding and we started out with
little capacities to begin with.
There, I think, needs to be a commitment to building
capacity since our organizations all have different kinds of
resources. You know, you have got isolated, rural communities
and coalitions. You have got urban organizations that have
access to each other in a very different way because of how
they are located. And we also know that institutions headed
by people of color have always been historically
disproportionately funded, so mainstream organizations
actually get more funding to do our work than we do, to do the
work in our communities.
So building collaborations, I think, is extremely
important during this time of fiscal, you know, constraint,
because those cooperations and those coalitions are going to
help in advancing grassroots agendas.
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But I think that EPA'S commitment to building
capacity has got to be a priority, particularly during these
times.
MR. RIDGWAY: Chris, please.
MR. HOLMES: After what you just said, I changed my
observation. But just two things.
One, on the building capacity point and about what
Hilton was talking also. And being able to understand what is
going on inside of industry is really critical and it requires
a lot of training. And I alluded earlier to understanding the
power of the permits and the information that is in the permit
and being able to train people as to what that means is pretty
important.
The other thought I just wanted to convey is I was
struck by Richard Moore's comment about the strikes and about
how there is one mistake and then a second mistake and a third
mistake and just keeps repeating itself. And that at this
point in the session it may not be appropriate to get into
this, but I am sure we would all be very interested in knowing
over time from the strategic perspective: What are the two or
three problems that just keep coming back and coming back and
coming back and run the risk of really festering, and maybe
even overwhelming your program in terms of your resources?
I mean, Richard was inching towards -- not inching,
uranium mill tailings. But there -- and that is a big one.
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But there are others, too, and I have been on a lot of
committees and I always hate that feeling that you are dealing
with so many things that there is always a tendency because
you are so close to these problems to miss something that is
really huge.
MR. LEE: Yes. I mean, I think one thing -- one of
the -- one thing that I would like to see happen is a
conversation with you and with the communities that really
gets us to that, to get a better understanding of that. And I
think -- I mean, uranium mill tailings are one thing. Water
infrastructure is another. You know, we can -- you know,
there is a long list.
But there is also one that Richard talked about, and
as we move forward in terms of a lot of the energy and other
kind of infrastructure development that we want to make sure
that we avoid unintended consequences, you know, and so these
are -- and this is where I think having input from you and
from -- and having a better engagement with the impacted
communities themselves will help us move in that direction a
whole lot more.
And so this is where, too, things like the National
Environmental Policy Act and making sure that environmental
justice is really well integrated into that, it becomes really
critical. And -- but not only that, because a lot of this is
a -- it is a much bigger issue in terms of community impacts.
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And so we know that we are getting, in terms of groups,
particularly tribal indigenous groups that come visit us --
you know, these issues are being raised to us. And so, you
know, having a fuller understanding of the breadth and depths
of these will be really helpful. Any other comments around
that?
MR. RIDGWAY: Yes, we have a few still queued up
here. Lang? I'm sorry -- staff, excuse me.
MR. BENJAMIN: I just want to touch on part of what
Elizabeth said. One of the things we say now is capacity
building for what? And we always need to keep asking
ourselves that question because a lot of people think they are
doing capacity building and it is the capacity to listen to
other people talk at them. And what we are trying to do is
give people the tools and resources to be partners with or
without us.
And so one of the things that we are developing is
our EJ Assistance Network. We are going to have sort of an
outside mechanism for people to get information -- and this
goes to what Wynecta asked also, to access resources and tech
-- you know, technical tools, methodology, information, just
so they can work with us, with amongst each other, and -- or
just, you know, go in other directions that we can't
anticipate yet.
And the other thing is this is the shameless sound
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of shilling for ourselves right now. A lot of stuff is going
on in the Agency and in OEJ that people don't know about. So
we are really going to try and do a much better job of sharing
information, and not just sharing information because we want
to brag, but sharing information because we have no idea of
the people who can use the information we have done.
We have literally done over 1100 EJ small grants.
There are a lot of lessons learned from there. We are going
to put that information better available so people can get to
it.
There are a lot of communities around the country
using our resources and OSWER and other parts of the Agency.
We are going to enhance how much information we put on our web
page and other places so people can learn from each other, so
you will be able to sort on what you are doing and find out
who else has done it. So you will be able to look in your
part of the country and see who you can partner with.
So we are doing that because it has to get out of
our hands. We can't always be the middleman into
accomplishing the successes that we know are our potential.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Lang?
MR. MARSH: Lang Marsh, National Policy Consensus
Center up in Portland, Oregon.
And I was really excited and hopeful and encouraged
by listening to you, Charles, and to Richard and Mathy about
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the direction and increased attention being paid to EJ at the
national level and the potential for much more to happen. I
think that makes our job a lot more interesting and
potentially productive.
And one of the things you said that also encouraged
me was that the budget for OEJ has been increased, at least by
the Congressional add-ons. Of course, I always like to see
add-ons incorporated into the base of a good program, and so I
hope that that will happen.
But I wonder if you could talk a little bit more
about those add-ons, what they were and what they might become
in the future in terms of ongoing programmatic capacity.
And in particular, the one that intrigued me was the addition
of more EJ coordinators at the regional level, and what -- how
that will relate to increased capacity building both for
community organizations and primes and also for the states.
MR. LEE: Heather, did you want to take that
question?
MS. CASE: Thank you for that question. Let me
start with the notion of a Congressional add-on.
MR. RIDGWAY: I am sorry, but I am going to
interrupt. Can you just identify yourself?
MS. CASE: Oh, I am sorry. I am Heather Case. I am
the Deputy Director and I am in charge of operations and
budget and also some of the policy and analytical functions
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within OEJ. Sorry about that, John.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you.
MS. CASE: Okay, so going back to your question, and
there are a number in there, so let me start one by one.
Over the last 15 years, there have been fluctuations
in OEJ's budget in part due to this Congressional add-on. In
2009, we received $3,200,000, and that was sort of the most we
have received. In 2010, that is going to be folded into our
base budget. So that is a great thing. That is very good
news.
We are going to use some of that for those SPE* in
the regions.
So as far as -- the thinking beyond that was in part
based on feedback that we had received and Charles had
received in numerous trips out to the regions in terms of
their capacity and needs to address issues at a local level.
So over time, I mean, just to continue in terms of
your questions, we are currently and actually this afternoon,
Kent and Mustafa and Charles are going to be leading a
discussion of the use of that $3,200,000 Congressional add-on,
and I think we may be able to share some general categories of
how that will be used.
And then over time we are going to be -- we are in
the process of doing our 2010 budget and of course those 10
FTEs will fund -- partially be funded by the $3,200,000 that
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goes into our base budget.
MR. LEE: The thing that you pointed out, Lang, and
is really important for OEJ, is that in the past it was almost
impossible to do real planning because of the fluctuating
nature of that Congressional add-on which is essentially
mostly used for our community assistance type of programs.
So now we have much better -- you know, we are in a
better position to do long-term planning and, you know, and to
make the commitment around having -- investing in personnel in
the regions, which, as you know, is where the frontlines are.
MR. RIDGWAY: Shankar, please.
DR. PRASAD: Shankar Prasad from Coalition for Clean
Air.
Charles, thanks for the nice presentation and I also
want to join Chuck. Your conclusions line essentially is one
of the places where it can make the difference, and that is
the right focus for an agency wide to make that happen. And
if you started your strategic plan in that context, that is
the end game that you want to be, and start building up the
steps backwards, probably you will end up with a good plan as
to focus wise.
So I really appreciate it and congratulate you on
that particular piece of the target, because, as you know,
having been inside, being an agency, for many years, there are
two things that make a difference for a program.
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One is a clear, defined target of an objective. If
you have a target, dedication of resources are an objective.
Then there is a -- you can give a marching order to the staff
how to go there.
If you do not have a target, you have to define a
process. You have to define a process to define the target.
At the same time, you need the resources, so what it is in
terms of the fiscal as well as in terms of the personnel?
And in our budget plan it was nice to see that we
have stressed earlier there needs to be some amount of
decentralizing the EJ aspect because most of the EJ plan, EJ
issues, are localized, so it is good that you are giving it to
the regions that are going to be able to expand and focus on
that aspect of it.
And I hope that same way when you are looking at the
budget schemes, also you will be looking at how to allocate
those to address the localized issues in the -- with the
regions' help. And it comes to the point like where
communities are needed which need them the most. So, again,
being that, now you also mentioned in your priority list
EJSEAT. That becomes the priority because you need to
identify the communities in a consistent manner.
So it -- I am glad that will become, as you move
forward over the next few months, that you will be able to
take the advice of the screening tool and methods part of it
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and look at where those funds are needed most.
A question for you is: Earlier, during the time you
mentioned that you will be looking the outcome as a health
variable in order to measure the success, something like words
to that effect you mentioned. I want to be sure that you are
not going down the path of trying to ascertain a health impact
measurement and to be able to measure that variation by your
action as a method to assess the success, because the health
impact, whether you talk of a cancer, an asthma, or any of
these numbers you mentioned, are all multi-factorial, whereas
you can measure the difference in terms of the pollution
burden. We will not be able to measure the difference by any
kind of an improvement meant to see that there is a health
impact has changed in a short duration of time.
So I want to be cautious about that aspect of how
you want to measure that success piece. Though it is
important as a monitoring device to maintain that kind of some
way of looking at that over time to see how improvements have
been made, but not to measure it, not to use that to
individual rule making or an individual plan that you plan to
put into this. Thank you.
MR. LEE: You know, that last point is really well
taken, and we have been kind of struggling with this, and
certainly we have been cautioned around, you know, the
difficulties involved in health measures.
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I mean, I think the main point for us right now is
to move the conversation to that point of looking at results
in that way. And I think obviously, and we have run into
examples of this, there are going to be, you know, measures to
which you can attribute like, you know, policy or program kind
of changes which forecast the kinds of results that we are
ultimately interested in.
I do think that stepping back a little bit, you
should know that, you know, with respect to your statement
about that last slide, is that, you know, over the next -- I
don't know, it is going to take longer than I thought -- but
probably five years or so, we are going to evolve a program
theory for environmental justice. And a program theory,
simply stated, is: What do you want to achieve, and how do
you intend to achieve it? And obviously we are talking about
a program theory for environmental justice for the Agency, and
so we have to start where you said we need to start, you know,
which is what you want to ultimately achieve, and then work
your way backwards.
So that is a process we would like to talk to you
about. And so -- and it is a -- you know, I once had the -- I
had this notion about a year ago, six months ago, that we were
going to come out with this right way, but it is a very
complicated thing because our program theory is actually
two -- you know, there are two steps to it.
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One is, you know, what does it look like? You know,
when EPA has integrated environmental justice incorporated
into its decision making? And then, what do we do to
influence, you know, that taking place? Or, you know, to
effectuate that?
So it is a discussion we want to have with you and
others over time.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Just for queuing up here,
we have got Don, Jody, Hilton and Patty. So, Don, please?
MR. ARAGON: Thank you. Don Aragon, with the Wind
River Environmental for the Shoshone and Arapaho Tribes.
I am pleased to hear that, you know, you are
considering having EJ a part of the strategic plan.
I have worked with the TOC now for a long time, and,
you know, the five goals have basically really not addressed
the environmental justice problems. And I really think that
if they are going to base this upon what some of the findings
were in the Johannesburg report that they came out with as to
how many people are not getting safe drinking water and all
these kind of things, I think that it is really important to
put in environmental justice into this.
Also, I really think that it is important that the
environmental justice become a part of the NEPA process where
we do environmental impact statements in our areas.
I -- on our reservation, we have done several of
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these, and one of the things that I noticed was the really
absence of environmental justice type stuff. We get these
experts and companies that come in and do these EISs for the
various reasons and some of the things I see, that they are
very not very well versed in dealing with disadvantaged
communities and people of color. It is really very
frustrating at times to get these kind of things to be
investigated.
Also, you know, one of the things that I would like
to tell your people that are working with your communication
problems to take another look at rural development -- I mean,
rural communities. We don't have Twitter, we don't have
Blackberrys, we don't have cell phones, all of these type of
things.
When you get out in the rural part of the United
States, high tech stuff is coming very slowly, and there are a
lot of communities I think -- God, we have only had cell
phones probably for two or three years. And just to get some
kind of services like Internet and stuff, we had to do --
become very innovative and go with satellites and do all kinds
of stuff because the big gene infrastructures that exist there
just don't support it. The telephone lines were probably put
in back in the MOs, x50s and so forth, and when you get into
your rural communities, there are just not the funds there to
help bring them into this high tech world.
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I hope that things can be worked out there and
continue to work in making sure that if you are developing
these communication type things that you really keep in mind
some of the rural communities just do not have this high tech
stuff and it is not the fault of the communities or -- and a
lot of the companies, we have talked with them. You know,
they are concerned, too, but because of the membership that
would support these type things just really isn't there also.
So, thank you.
MR. LEE: I thank you. Three major points --
strategic plan, NEPA, and communications. So, Heather, do you
want to talk to the strategic plan and Suzi, do you want to
NEPA, and Mustafa, you want to talk to the communications?
MR. LEE: Briefly, please.
MS. CASE: Yes, will do. On the strategic plan, we
are very much focused, as Charles mentioned, on taking steps
to fully integrate environmental justice in the strategic
plan.
I think the Agency has made progress in the last one
in terms of at least reflecting the environmental priorities
in the strategic planning each goal.
The important note here is I think the work that
Shankar and his work group is doing. In order for us to have
a quantitative basis for understanding where we are, where we
need to go, and what we need to do to get there, we need a
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methodology for identifying and assessing disadvantaged
communities, the places and populations.
So there is a lot of work under way to begin to
flesh that out, building on what we hear from the work group,
and I think Mathy's comments today about integration in the
strategic plan related to waste is a very good signal.
MS. RUHL: My name is Suzi Ruhl and I am the -- been
here four months, the senior attorney position with OEJ, and I
am delighted to say that the issue of NEPA has been front and
center in terms of our interest in seeing how we can increase
consideration of environmental justice issues within that
process, and we have undertaken a number of activities to date
going with the leadership that Reggie Harris out of Region III
has laid.
There has been created a regional coordinator's
working group just trying to come up with methods to
understand what are some of the best practices, what should we
be looking for, in terms of making sure that environmental
justice is considered.
And then under the leadership with Arthur Totten,
who is the liaison with OSA, we embarked on a dialogue with
the Office of Federal Activities, again trying to see how we
can work more collaboratively and are working on some very
specific ideas to implement.
And in the third, we have been working with the 	
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at Region IX on seeing how we can better develop communication
measures so that communities that are involved in the NEPA
process can be most effective in their participation.
And so it is a long-term process, and we are very
much looking at specific activities to try to address this
issue.
MR. ALI: Hi, Don. This is Mustafa Ali, also
dealing with communications.
I guess the best way for me to respond is being
raised in the environmental justice movement, I understand,
and it has been ingrained me that any time we create any type
of communication strategy, we would make sure that we speak
with the communities because environmental justice begins and
ends in the community, so they understand what are the best
methods for us to relay information and to engage with them.
So that is definitely a part of the process that we are
putting in place. But thank you for reminding me of that.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay. Jody, please.
MS. HENNEKE: I am Jody Henneke with the General
Land Office in Texas.
I feel like I should start my comments quoting one
of my favorite statesmen of all time, and that is Yogi Berra.
A lot of this is deja vu all over again for me, listening to
Richard talk about uranium mining and tailings. I grew up in
northeast Oklahoma with deep shaft lead and zinc mines and we
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called it chat* and some of those, quote, piles were more than
300 feet high, and I have lots of family photographs of
playing baseball at the foot of some of those piles.
Many of you may have seen this summer where the --
and I use the term "city" very, very loosely, much more of a
town -- of picture no longer exists through, I think it was
the number two cited Superfund site in the country. So again,
like Richard said, I hope that we have learned some of those
lessons a little better than what we did back in the x30s and
MOs when those mines were put in place as part of the war
effort.
The other thing that I wanted to speak to just a
bit, and I really don't -- I want this to be understood and so
I am going to try to say it in a way to get my point across.
As you work with your communications strategy, and by the way,
I love the term "digital divide." I grew up in the country
and I have had that fight on the state level for a long time
because I live and work out of a city in Austin, Texas. It is
one of the most electroniced-up places in the world. And many
of us have a tendency to think what we have, everybody has,
and that certainly does not hold true in Texas, much less many
of -- all of the other states as well. I think I had children
just so they could teach me how to use my remote control on my
TV.
What I wanted to stress is as you do your work on
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communications, do not leave out the states. Virtually all of
the permitting authority in the state of Texas is done by the
state, not by EPA. Hilton knows that in the refinery
expansion that he worked on early on, those permits were
issued by the state. Fortunately, we had a regulatory
mechanism that allowed his voice to be heard, that allowed us,
us, us the state, to be able to require that the industry come
to the table. That does not hold true in many, if not most
of, the other states.
Now, granted, Hilton had to learn how to take
advantage of that process, and there were a lot of us that
helped him through that because, as somebody else referred to
earlier, you don't just get to say "because I don't wanna."
You have to be very clear and in a state that I come from, you
have to be what is known as an affected person. And when you
are a fence line community, you are an affected person, but
you have to be able to lay that out in ways that stand up in a
regulatory process.
But, and the reason that I am making this point, is
when you have all of your resources, and I don't begrudge any
resources at all -- I worked over the years very closely with
the regional offices -- but those regional offices don't
always know the interworkings of the permitting process of the
respective states.
Region VI has some of the most heavily
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industrialized states in the country. Each of them have very,
very different permitting processes. So those communities
have to know how to access, where to go, how to get the
attention of the permitting authority.
So I ask that you keep that in mind as you work
through your communication strategy.
The other thing is -- and I have heard many times,
well, you know, the states issue the permits. Keep in mind
EPA has agreements with the states for delegated authority.
So there are ways to make it happen.
But I believe very strongly that when you can get
the parties, all of the right parties, when you can get the
parties together at the table, you can usually, not always,
but almost always, come up with creative solutions that does
truly allow it to be a win/win situation.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Hilton, I am going to put
you kind of at the end of the queue so others that haven't
spoken yet have a chance here first. And I have also asked
Charles to comment only if there is something critical to the
question or comment that is brought up, respectfully.
(Laughter)
MR. RIDGWAY: Yes, he actually offered that. Let us
be clear there. So, Patty, please.
MS. SALKIN: Thanks. Patty Salkin, the Government
Law Center of Albany Law School.
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I want to echo some of the earlier comments, that I
am glad to see some emphasis on working with other Federal
agencies going out beyond EPA, and of course all the work that
Kent mentioned about working with communities.
However, I initially put my card up because I didn't
really hear an answer to Lang's comment about the states and
then Jody raised it as well. I think it is critically
important that this be a part of the agenda and a part of the
slides in the future for lots of reasons, not just permitting
reasons but primarily because EPA can't do it alone. And, you
know, you have got 50 potential partners that I think that we
need across the country.
I also want to encourage you to take a look at how
you could structure meaningful collaborations with lots of
national NGOs. And, you know, I put them in different
categories, groups like the five or six or seven different
national municipal association kinds of organizations. There
are national planning organizations. The state national
organizations like the Council of State Governments, the
National Governors Association, National Association of
Attorneys General, the Council of State Governments. Again,
to try to go and get the message and get partnerships and help
from these groups who would then bring the message back to
their constituents through their publications and through
their annual training opportunities.
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And then, lastly, you know, this town is rich with
think tanks, groups like the Brookings Institute and others
that do a lot of work on urban and rural development,
environmental issues. I would like to see more publications
and more workshops coming out of those groups that support the
work and that, as Kent said, help to bring the message out of
all of the wonderful things that OEJ has already accomplished.
That is another audience for you. And then work that we can
do together to enhance and build upon what has already been
done.
MR. LEE: You know, I think the -- that slide around
kind of moving our collaborative problem solving processes to
a new level is kind of -- is meant to embody or embrace a lot
of the things you are talking about, you and Jody, about
working with states and other groups.
Maybe Kent can say a little bit about our work with
states, particularly our recent grant program.
MR. BENJAMIN: Just briefly want to touch on -- last
year we met with a number of you up in the Environmental
Council of the States and we developed our state EJ
cooperative agreement and we put the request for proposals
out, and now we have five states that have been selected. We
can't announce them yet because they haven't finished the
award process. But they will be working closely not only with
EPA's regional offices but in part they are each working in a
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community within their states. And the objective of that also
is to do things that can be emulated in other communities
across the state and that can also be emulated in other states
across the country.
So we can't do all that we would like to do. But we
are starting -- we are testing out various ways that we can,
you know, sort of teach each other and take these practices
more widespread.
MR. LEE: With respect to the last point, Patricia,
about the -- you know, about Washington, DC being a real
fertile area for dialogue, you know, we have worked with John
around, you know, the EJ in America Conference, and, you know,
we are thinking about different other ways in which we can
promote that dialogue, maybe even a monthly, you know, speaker
series, just as a way to getting things started.
Howard University Law School recently hired an
environmental -- law environmental justice professor, and, you
know, that is another area that, you know, perhaps could be a
place that some of this activity can be spurred.
MR. RIDGWAY: Bill, please.
MR. HARPER: Hi. Bill Harper, Pacific Gas and
Electric.
And I just wanted to comment again on the
communications. And, Kent, I really like what you had to say.
I think, you know, in the past couple years that I have been
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on NEJAC, we come here and we are all very passionate about
environmental justice and it is -- you know, it is highlighted
in what we do, and when we go home, we think about it and we
all work, whether it is in business or grassroots communities
or what have you.
But I think sometimes we tend to forget how
widespread the environmental injustices are and how many
people it really affects, and without having those types of
communications where people can go and find, you know,
benchmarks or other things that are happening that they can
build on and not feel like they are alone or really see that
there is a major movement out there. It is a big impact and
it really helps people, you know, understand not only what is
being done but I think when you look at the green economy and
everything else, they understand that there is a lot more
going on and it is out there and it gives them a little bit
more hope than just having to be up against that brick wall
every day.
MR. RIDGWAY: Peter, please.
MR. CAPTAIN: Thank you. Thank you, Charles, for
that wonderful presentation. You know, after our meeting in
Atlanta, I -- excuse me. I am Peter Captain Senior from the
huge state of Alaska, the lone representative.
I posed that question to Victoria on how I -- you
know, I could become a better representative, and how could I
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get out my message to the people of Alaska? And like Don
alluded to, you know, the high-speed Internet is very foreign
between -- in Alaska, cell phones, very few. So,
communications, you know, is very, very far and in between and
not the best.
And, you know, not everybody can come here as the
fortunate ones in the audience are, you know, that can comment
on what we are trying to accomplish, you know. And it is very
important that they hear our message. And I would just, you
know, want to thank Charles and the rest of the people for
trying to rectify this communications problem.
MR. RIDGWAY: Hilton, please.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes, Hilton Kelley, Community In-
power and Development Association, Port Arthur, Texas.
Yes -- you know, I just want to make sure Mustafa
and particularly 	 communication is key, and also follow up
and follow through. Super critical. Simply because I met
with two industry star communities, and I won't name both of
them, but yet we were able to get quite a bit done by
communication. And we have educated them on what some of the
needs are in the community.
But when industry has questions, you know, they
really don't know who to go to with a lot of these questions
or their concerns. And one of the things that we have to
alleviate was their concern on how to get some things done
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when they come to land remediation.
One industry in particular was interested in some
ideas we had when it came to land remediation and that
particular use, and what we found was they did not have enough
information on how to go about getting assistance from EPA.
They were interested in the project.
We have an idea to do a solar panel forum in the
city of Port Arthur, and there are about 4 -- I think 4.2
acres of land which is owned by this one particular industry,
and it has been fenced off for about the last 20 years. It
was an old tank farm.
And what they wanted to know was: How could they go
about working closely with EPA to get the funding they needed
to help remediate this land, because they didn't have the land
or the resources to get it done themselves, but yet they
wanted to know, how could they partner with EPA to get it
done? And Region VI EPA, the Brownfield division, have
contacted this company and now they are in dialogue and we are
actually scheduled to have a conference call sometime today on
that particular issue. But it is starting to move forward.
But yet, information is critical, and I think that
if EPA on a regional level or from a Federal level working
with the regional departments start to contact many of these
industries, then look at some of the problems that they are
causing and some of the land that they may have for reuse and
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educate them, put out bulletins on how to contact EPA, how
they can work with EPA to be better stewards in the community
and also to communicate better with the grassroots folks, I
think that would help tremendously.
And also, there is a lot of fine money that usually
goes to states and some of it comes back to the -- up to the
Federal level. I think if we took some of that fine money
which is imposed upon many of these industries and put that
back into the system, this can help to employ more Federal
employees to help police some of these industries and also
some of that money can be used within the partnership
organization between the regional level of EPA and the Federal
level. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Elizabeth, please.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Elizabeth Yeampierre with UPROSE in
Brooklyn and the New York City Environments Justice Alliance.
You know, in environmental justice, the process is
just as important as the outcome. And so, hearing from the
staff talk about a process that really speaks to the heart of
environmental justice is really heartwarming and I really
appreciate -- because it really resonates, and it is so rare
to meet staff that actually gets it. So I am truly grateful
that we have you guys on staff.
I do want to address the issue -- the comment raised
about how we reach out to planning associations and
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universities and folks like that.
You know, historically we have always had tensions
with mainstream environmental organizations and institutions
that really want to set the agendas for our communities and we
have been most successful when we have been able to build
collaborations that have been respectful and have been
grounded on local leadership. And when these institutions
attempt to supplant local leadership, you have a really awful
situation. It often happens in New York City with different
planning associations, transportation organizations that
really want to tell our communities what is in their best
interest.
So it is possible, though, to build collaborations
that are different, and I think that those are resources that
are necessary in terms of elevating the discussion and
providing technical assistance on the ground. But it can't be
done in a vacuum. Those organizations, those institutions
have to be provided with an orientation about how you do it
respectfully and they also can get funded at the expense of
local technical experts in our communities.
You have got organizations that provide policy
analysis, do technical support on the ground, and EJ
organizations that often don't get the funding that may be a
local university that wants to get involved in the issue gets
access to.
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So I would urge that in trying to reach out to
groups that have neither traditionally been involved in these
issues or have a history of working with communities in a
respectful way that we really pay close attention to that.
In New York City, for example, when we tried to put
together a community-based planning initiative on climate
justice, we worked with a local university that really sort of
came in in a very top down approach to try to tell people in
our community how they should -- how should they wrap their
heads around that issue. And so we had to start all over
again because we really wanted the community to have ownership
over it and to really talk about adaptation in a way that was
meaningful for our community. So, it could waste time, it
could waste resources, and it could really disengage people
when that wasn't the intention.
So I just wanted to put that on the table, because
it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay. Well, we are starting to run
short on time. We do want to get a session in here to
recognize Luke a little bit. But next I am going to ask John
Rosenthall, please.
MR. ROSENTHALL: Thank you. John Rosenthall,
National Small Town Alliance. I want to talk about two points
that had been raised earlier.
One is communications and the digital divide. I
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represent a number of small towns and rural communities, and I
echo the concerns of those who don't have access to technology
that the rest of us have.
But this government disposes of roughly a half-
million computers every year. And there is no reason why
those computers couldn't be distributed to the small towns and
rural communities across the country.
A lot of those pieces of equipment are sold at
auction. They are shipped overseas and some are just simply
dumped. And this is an opportunity for EPA, which is a
relatively small agency, to partner with some of the larger
agency with the deep pockets to make sure that those resources
go to the proper places.
The Departments of Commerce and Agriculture devote a
tremendous amount of money every year to 	 and outreach.
And, ironically, a report was issued just yesterday that
showed that most of that money goes to urban America rather
than to rural America and small town America.
Part of the problem is that there is no real strong
lobby for rural America in this town. And if there were, then
perhaps the rules could be rewritten to support where the
funds should actually go.
Now, I am not suggesting that EPA become a lobbyist
for small town and rural America. But I am suggesting that
EPA become a more vocal voice with the sister agencies to
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share those resources into the places where EPA would like
them to go.
The other point is what Hilton spoke about, the
fines. And the supplemental environmental projects, and we
have talked about that previously, and a lot of the agencies
take the position that the funds must go back to the Treasury,
and that is correct.
But there is no reason why -- and some of us take
the position that even under existing regulations, some of
those funds can be put back into the local communities where
they could be used. And, unfortunately, that is not the case
nowadays. And perhaps this is another avenue where EPA can
use its influence amongst the larger agencies to help redirect
some of those funds to the places that really need them.
MR. RIDGWAY: Wynecta, you put your card down.
MS. FISHER: I thought we were running out of time,
and I can just ask them later.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, Don? Thank you.
MR. ARAGON: Thank you. Don Aragon with Wind River
Environmental for the Shoshone and Arapaho tribes.
Just a couple of comments to add on to what John was
saying there. There are ways that we can share with the
Federal fining process. It is through supplemental
environmental projects -- they call them "SEPs" -- where in
lieu of a company paying a fine, they can do an environmental
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project in a community. And these have been extremely
beneficial to Indian tribes.
MR. RIDGWAY: And I just want to interject SEPs for
those in the crowd is "Supplemental Environmental Projects"
that are part of an enforcement activity.
MR. ARAGON: Thank you. And they have been
extremely beneficial. Instead of sending the money back to
the Treasurer, there is actually a project completed in the
community.
One other point that I hear that EPA has more
partnerships than just the states. They have Indian tribes.
And a lot of the Indian tribes now are gaining primacy, and so
this is where they are ruling and regulating their own
destiny.
Also, the states do not have the authority to issue
permits on Indian reservations. Those are Federal permits.
Just for clarification points.
And so Indian tribes deal directly with the EPA or
the Federal government, and most likely the Department of
Justice when there are violations on our lands, and so, you
know, just to expand on that partnership stuff that is --
thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Well, Charles and staff, you just
aren't drinking out of a fire hose here of advice, and it is
high quality and I recommend that you take the time necessary
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to review these comments when you have a chance afterwards.
Okay, we are going to transition a little bit here.
Thank you, Council, for all your comments, very germane and
helpful, I believe.
Tribute to Luke Cole
MR. RIDGWAY: A couple months ago, one of the early
members of this Council was killed in a traffic accident in
Africa, Luke Cole, and it was fairly devastating news for most
people who know him.
He has brought this Council and this country and
countless communities a huge amount of support and advocacy
and respect. And we want to take a few minutes here to
recognize Luke.
I am going to just start by saying I first had the
chance to see him in action many, many years ago when he came
up to Region X, Seattle, to advise EPA and the states as to
what he is doing from a legal standpoint regarding issues
going on around the country.
So this is a moment to reflect a little bit briefly
on what Luke has brought, and to encourage all of us to carry
on with his legacy. And I would like to invite any Council
members that have any comments regarding what Luke has
represented and his spirit continues to represent for us to
feel free to share any thoughts on that, and then we will take
a break for lunch. So, any Council members at all? Sue?
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MS. BRIGGUM: You wouldn't think that I would be the
first person to talk about Luke and how much I admired and
cared about him. We would mix it up sometimes over the course
of NEJAC and the Title VI Advisory Committee. We came from
very different perspectives.
But one of his wonderful traits was -- although he
was the most fervent advocate for his ideals and his
communities, he was also open to discussions. He would listen
and he would convince you as well.
He also had a wonderful sense of humor. So he was
really a nice person to spend time with. So I think you will
find that we all admire his legacy enormously but we also
really just miss him as a person. He was a wonderful guy.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Don?
MR. ARAGON: Yes, thank you. I knew Luke very well,
and I really enjoyed his company. I share the fact that he
shared a lot of his inner thinking about the environmental
justice, about how it impacted people of color and especially
Indian tribes. And he wrote some books, you know, that were
really excellent -- and he even autographed a book for me. I
can't tell you what he wrote in there, but it was very good.
I really enjoyed the guy. I am deeply moved to hear
that he is no longer with us. You know, he was really an
excellent person.
And when I -- I was on the NEJAC before. I think I
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sat on the NEJAC from the year 2000 to 2003 or 2004, and in
that time I got to know a lot of these individuals that you
are bringing forth, and Luke was just one of my favorites.
And I went to Alaska with him, and Danny Gogal and
some others, and we took a look at the environmental impacts
of what happens to the people up there in the middle of the
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winter. And we went up on February 17 or something like
that, just -- I mean, they picked the time when it was really
difficult up there. And when we alit out there in Kotzebue,
Alaska, it was -- the chill factor was around 70 below zero.
And I mean, Luke wanted to experience the -- what is
it that you can do in 7 0 below, you know? Like you don't have
running water, you don't have septics, you don't have the run
down to the 7-Eleven store and all that type stuff.
And that is the kind of guy that I really admired,
is the fact that he wanted to live it, not only just hear
about it. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Charles? Or Jody?
MS. HENNEKE: Thank you. One of the first NEJAC
meetings that I attended back in the early to mid-^Os, I got
to witness a somewhat of a tag team between Luke Cole and
Richard Moore. And for those of you who think that Richard
hasn't moderated a bit over the years, oh, my goodness!
(Laughter)
MS. HENNEKE: Watching those two was quite
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fascinating, and I learned a lot just watching.
Luke never had any difficulty whatsoever in
expressing his opinion. But the thing that I did appreciate
about Luke, much as Sue said, is that he also felt that you
should have the same opportunity to express your opinion.
I value that a very great deal about him and his
passion was extraordinary.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Elizabeth?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I actually found out about Luke's
passing at an environmental justice leadership forum on
climate change conference call, and was not prepared for the
impact that it was going to have on me during that -- I had no
idea that I could be so affected by someone that I didn't know
that well.
But I can tell you that if you knew him or if you
met him, within five minutes you were very clear about the
fact that he was a completely different kind of person. He
was really special. And that he understood the role of
privilege within an environmental justice movement and the
role that privilege could play.
And recently, UPROSE hosted a national gathering of
environmental justice youth organizers, and it had happened
right after Luke had passed. And in the middle of it, some of
the young people started crying and they were from the Central
Valley in California, and shared with us everything he had
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done for their community and what he meant for their
communities.
And so, you know, when you first met him, you
thought, okay, this -- he is this big, tall lawyer who likes
the outdoors, I am urban and Caribbean -- I am not feeling
that. But you understood on a real cellular level what his
presence on this earth really meant to people and what a
change he had made in their lives.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Shankar?
DR. PRASAD: The passing of Luke is a great loss to
this movement. That is the fact. He was one honest man. I
met him, it was ten years back. A few times we agreed, few
times we disagreed. But at the core, he believed, and also he
was an excellent liar.
(Laughter)
DR. PRASAD: In essence, I want to raise that issue
because in California he took a leadership when they passed
the climate law, and 	 was in the process of driving the --
making a scoping plan which gives a pathway to what they are
going to do. And he brought in the issue of climate justice
in that regard. We talked about it, what worked and what
would not work.
But he was so keen as to be exploring various things
-- advocacy work, organizing, and other issues. He was
already thinking we are also in consultation with him and a
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few other attorneys. Should there be a path that is not going
to take the climate justice into account? What are the legal
hooks that can be placed upon? Is there a way to address
that?
So that is the kind of thinking he always had, not
just the organizing and, as you said, Elizabeth said, it is
really true that he made a big difference for many communities
in the Central Valley.
We miss him a lot in this moment.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Don? No? Okay, Lang?
MR. MARSH: I served with Luke on the EJ -- on the
Title VI of FACA a few years back, and that is where I got to
know him. He was a very strong, forceful, energetic,
passionate person, and I agree with Shankar that it is a great
loss to this movement partly because, you know, he was a kind
of unusual person. He was a white guy who was very passionate
about what had been happening over many years to people of
color. It is not -- it is a great model for folks who might
have difficulty understanding that position.
He was a leader. He was very energized by what he
saw as injustice. These are the kinds of people we need in
our society, and I am sorry to see him go.
MR. RIDGWAY: Charles? Thank you, Lang.
Anyone else?
(No response)
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MR. LEE: Well, I first met Luke in the late x80s
when this young attorney came up to me and said he read Toxic
Waste and Race and decided what kind of law he wanted to
practice. And that is really a -- that is really meaningful.
And so obviously we became colleagues and
compatriots and good friends, just like he was with a lot of
other people. And Luke was really a great attorney, really
innovative, and he brought a lot of the real kind of -- new
kind of approaches towards using the law for advancing
environmental justice came from Luke.
But I think the thing I remember, or I would take
from Luke, is that he really didn't see the law as an end in
itself. He -- at his core, he believed in community
organizing and empowerment. And I think everything he did
came from that, at the end that the communities will be
empowered themselves, would have the capacity to carry on
without an attorney.
So that would be my reflection.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you, everybody. I think Luke
will continue to inspire us, and he set a very challenging
example that I hope we can emulate.
I also want to, on behalf of this Council, give best
wishes to his wife and family in dealing with this very, very
hard transition. And so I will ask that maybe we can
something sent to his family after this meeting adjourns.
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So, thank you again, and we are going to now take a
break for lunch, and we are going to be fairly prompt with
trying to get started again right at 1:00.
And I will close out this session by again thanking
Charles's staff. Thanks for coming and giving your
information. And thank you to the audience for your time and
efforts to get here and patiently listen. I am very glad that
you are here and that we have a full room. And the meeting is
going to continue with plenty of more to come. So thanks. We
are going to take a break.
(Lunch logistics)
MR. LEE: Just one last thing. A number of us,
myself included, are going to be leaving for several hours, so
in that time, Mustafa is the one that is in charge.
(Lunch break from 12:10 p.m. to 1:08 p.m.)
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AFTERNOON SESSION
(1:11 p.m.)
Welcome to the Afternoon Session
by Victoria Robinson, DFO
MS. ROBINSON: Let us get started. And while we are
waiting for the members to return to the table, we will do a
little bit of light housekeeping.
(Logistics)
We also want to welcome Jolene back from -- welcome
to the table. She is able to now sit fully and participate at
the table. Let us see -- do we have every -- pretty much
almost everybody is here? Just missing -- like Omega. Okay.
Before we get started with the afternoon session, we
are privileged to have with us today a new member of the
senior management at EPA. I am going to have Mustafa
introduce him.
MR. ALI: Thank you, Victoria. And thank everyone
for coming back from lunch on time.
I want to introduce our new Assistant Administrator
for the Office of Prevention, Pesticides and Toxic Substances.
Steve Owens is the Assistant Administrator for the Office of
Prevention, Pesticides and Toxic Substances and is responsible
for managing the nation's regulatory and scientific programs
on pesticides and industrial chemicals as well as overseeing
many collaborative pollution prevention programs.
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The office has an annual budget of over $250,000,000
and more than 1200 employees.
Prior to being confirmed by the U.S. Senate in July,
2009 as the Assistant Administrator for OPPTS, Steve served as
the Director for the Arizona Department of Environmental
Quality. Appointed by Governor Janet Napolitano in January,
2003, Steve was the longest serving Director in ADEQ history,
providing executive leadership and setting overall Agency
policy and priorities for the Department.
As ADEQ Director, Steve made protecting children
from toxic exposures a top priority, and among many other
initiatives, helped launch Arizona's Children's Environmental
Health Project and established an Office of Children's
Environmental Health at the Department.
Please help me to welcome Steve to joining us today.
(Applause)
Comments
by Steve Owens
MR. OWENS: Thank you, Mustafa. I was getting a
little worried that nobody was going to read it. I had
written a shorter bio for the web page.
But I appreciate the opportunity to be here. As you
said, I am Steve Owens. This is my -- beginning of my second
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full week on the job. I just started last week, on the 13
I was confirmed by the Senate on July 6th, started on July 13th
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and I am here today. So I tell you that one -- so if I seem a
little discombobulated, it is because I am, that I am still
learning my way around EPA.
But I also take it that -- because I want you to
know how important it was to me personally to get here today
and be with you. I am unfortunately am going to have to duck
out around 2:00. I had to fight and scratch and claw today to
make sure that we kept this time on the schedule.
As I was saying to some folks a while ago, when you
wind up in one of these positions, what you think you are
going to do one day when you leave the office is different
from what they tell you you are going to do the next day when
you show up and actually hand you your schedule because things
change so quickly overnight in terms of events. But this is
one that we have been looking forward to, I certainly have
been looking forward to, for quite a while.
I know you have had some other folks. I think Mathy
was here earlier today, and I think Cynthia is going to be
here a way on. Certainly, the Administrator is going to be
here. I think that underscores the level of not only the
interest in the issue of environmental justice for this
Administration and especially Administrator Jackson, but on
the level of commitment to the principles that all of you are
here and articulate on this advisory Council, but the work
that you are doing through this Council.
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As the Director of the Arizona Department of
Environmental Quality, we had a lot of activity on 	. I
would like to say with some level of pride that it was under
Governor Napolitano and then my directorship at ADEQ that we
first officially said that the Executive Order on
environmental justice actually did apply to what we did at the
state level because of the Federal funding that we got.
Prior to Governor Napolitano coming on board and my
becoming Director of ADEQ, there was always a debate that went
on at the state level about whether you really had to follow
the directives of that Executive Order or just look the other
way, and we made clear that when we were doing decisions on
permits and on site approvals and things like that that we had
to an environmental justice analysis and make sure that
disadvantaged and other affected communities' interests were
taken into account in a very significant way.
So as the new, brand new, Assistant Administrator
for Prevention, Pesticides and Toxic Substances, I am still --
that is a tongue twister. If you can say that, you know, six
times really fast, you are in good shape, but we do a lot of
work in that office that obviously affects communities. And
Administrator Jackson and I have already talked a lot about
what we do with toxic substances, what we do with pesticides,
what we do with pollution prevention and other things that are
within the jurisdiction of OPPTS, that we are cognizant of the
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interests that are at stake here, that decisions we make
reflect the concerns that need to be reflected and that are
articulated by the President and by her.
And what I want to do here today is mostly listen to
what you have to say and then try to sneak out as
unobtrusively as possible so I don't disrupt the meeting.
But the one word of advice I will give you is they
were just saying. I have been involved in these kinds of
prophecies a long time. If you pay attention to nothing I
say, pay attention to what they tell you about the
reimbursement process because you want to make sure you get
reimbursed for your travel and all that, that they do a good
job on that, but it can sometimes get a little bit Byzantine.
So I want to thank you for the opportunity to be
here with you and I look forward to listening to the
conversation. And thank you, Mustafa, for introducing me.
MS. ROBINSON: Oh, thank you, Steve. We are going
to go ahead and get started since we are running about maybe
15 minutes behind schedule, but we do have a little bit of
flexibility in our schedule.
We are coming to one of my favorite parts, or rather
looking forward to on this part of the agenda for more than
six, eight months, and that is, last fall, as I was, you know,
again reading the reports and putting the last minute
technical review, I saw that dawned on me that this year,
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2009, marks the 15 year of the NEJAC. And I recommended that
OEJ, that we in OEJ actually take a look at just how the
NEJAC's recommendations, the impact that it had on the
Agency's actions and programs and activities and -- because
that would be useful for not only me, who has kind of watched
it, but really been watching it more from the outside, but
also for members of the NEJAC, former and current and future,
as well as folks within the Agency. And I thought the Agency
to see what has transpired in the last 15 years. And so I am
really excited about this process.
We wanted to make sure that everybody knew that in
the back of your binders there is a CD that has a PDF file of
every single report or recommendations that the NEJAC has
prepared in its 15 years. And these are reports in their full
text as well as executive summaries, that Tim, who I will
introduce in the moment, will be referencing in his
presentation.
So, take it -- it gives you the full text. You
won't have to download them off the Internet. They all are on
the NEJAC website, every single one of these documents.
As we go through this, as Tim goes through his
presentation about the NEJAC's advice and its suggestions for
NEJAC improvements in the future, I wanted to make sure that
we also kind of make sure we look at the discussion in terms
of examining: Just was does it mean? I would like to find
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out from you: What do you think it means for the NEJAC to be
effective? What are the factors for success? How would you
define it? Is it the partnerships? Is it the relationships?
What it is that you would think would -- leaves you to believe
that the NEJAC itself is successful and effective?
And this is important information for me as a DFO
because as an agency and as the Federal government, they are
looking at ways to measure everything, the effectiveness of
Federal advisory committees as well. And what -- in order to
measure success, we need to know what do you -- how would you
define success? And so I would like to hear from you what
those factors are after we have our presentation, and Tim
leads us through the discussion.
I keep on mentioning Tim. Tim has been a friend of
the NEJAC going way back. Tim was the Assistant Administrator
for OSMER -- correct, Tim?
And while he was a 	 for OSWER, Charles was the
chair of the NEJAC's Waste and Facility Siting Subcommittee.
And they worked closely together in developing, developed a
very close collaborative relationship in how the subcommittee
was able to really work with OSWER in helping it to formulate
and its Brownfields recommendation, the recommendations for
Brownfields, in effecting EPA's Brownfields program, among
other things, including waste transfer stations. And Tim now
is no longer with the Agency, but he -- we have asked him to
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head this retrospective, if you will, looking forward, looking
back, of the NEJAC.
And I would like to turn it over to Tim and see what
he has to say. I want to let you know: The report is inside
your binder. It is in the second pocket, if you will, should
be slipped inside. You will see a color copy of the report.
It is in there.
PRESENTATION: Impacts of NEJAC Recommendations
on EPA Policies and Activities
by Tim Fields
MR. FIELDS: Thank you very much, Victoria, and I
thank you for having this idea to do this study about a year
ago. And welcome, Steve, to the meeting and to EPA, and very
pleased to be here with NEJAC. Thank you, Elizabeth, John,
and all the members of the Executive Council for their support
as well. I have interviewed several of you as we did this
study over the last eight, nine months, and that we will be
presenting today.
As Victoria said, it is a 15-year look-back as to
the NEJAC activities, advice and recommendations NEJAC has
provided and suggestions for the future.
(Slide)
So, the goals were to review the activities since
1994 when the NEJAC started, in May, 1994, and evaluate the
performance of the Council, capture the major advice and
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recommendations that have been made, and to develop
recommendations on how NEJAC as an advisory organization can
be even more effective in the future. Those were our goals.
(Slide)
Some of the major timeline activities -- and this is
not meant to be comprehensive because the report itself, as
you will see, has all of the reports, but some of the critical
timelines that NEJAC is built around is the creation of the
Office of Environmental Justice in 1992; the establishment of
NEJAC itself September 30th, 1993; the Executive Order on
Environmental Justice; the first NEJAC meeting occurring in
1994; Charles Lee's work with the Ways Committee to look at
the -- how urban revitalization and Brownfields could be
married with environmental justice and community involvement,
which led to a series of recommendations in December, 1996.
(Slide)
We also, in the mid->90s, we did work, as Mathy
talked about, the work that led to an award for Region IV
around the relocation for the first time around a Superfund
site. A primarily minority community, an African-American
community in Pensacola, Florida, got relocated because of the
-- and I will be quite honest with you -- it was because the
engagement and dialogue with NEJAC that helped to lead to that
decision and the change in policy around Superfund relocation
because of the engagement of the NEJAC during that time.
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Also, in '99, they had -- we had the first major
engagement with our neighbors to the south, the U.S.-Mexico
Border Environmental Justice meeting in California. That led
to a lot of changes in international policy as well.
(Slide)
Next, in the early 2000s, we had the final NEJAC
report on waste transfer stations that Mathy Stanislaus
referred to, that he chaired on behalf of NEJAC. A change in
the legal authorities that came out of the Office of General
Counsel that was pushed by NEJAC's effort around permitting of
environmental facilities. And a major fish consumption
report. Some efforts around travel. Governments and
indigenous organizations also came out in 2004.
(Slide)
And then, lastly, we had several major efforts that
occurred in the last two or three years that NEJAC produced
that led to changes in agency policy. The report on "What is
the Direction of Stakeholder Involvement?" that produced a
report that led to a future direction for NEJAC in 2004.
The Hurricane Katrina report that came out in 2006
that led to changes in emergency management procedures by EPA.
The establishment of the EJ Awards Program.
And that brings us to the day -- July, 2009, where
we celebrate 15 years of NEJAC being in existence and a lot of
accomplishments that I will talk about in a moment.
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(Slide)
So, the background. You all know that NEJAC is
primarily an advisory organization to provide advice to EPA on
environmental justice issues that have resulted in major
changes to EPA programs, policies, and activities.
(Slide)
However, for some stakeholders, including some who
are at this meeting today, they also desire on occasion that
NEJAC also take on two other roles, a role of advocacy on
behalf of stakeholders who bring EJ issues to the Council, and
you will hear about that during the Public Comment session.
And also, they look to NEJAC to hold EPA accountable for
actions that EPA takes on environmental justice. And I can
tell you as a former EPA person that NEJAC has done all three
of those -- provided advice, held EPA accountable, and served
as an advocate on many occasions.
(Slide)
As Victoria said earlier, there have been 25
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meetings; this is the 26 meeting of NEJAC. 11, now 12, have
been here in the Washington Metropolitan area. There have
been no regular NEJAC meetings to date at Regions I, II, VII
and VIII, and I heard about that from people in those regions.
There have been 9 special NEJAC meetings around enforcement
roundtables, relocation roundtables, U.S.-Mexico, and then the
5 public dialogues around Brownfields revitalization, as I
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called it, Charles Lee's search for the authentic signs of
hope, that occurred as well.
(Slide)
And then you all know that there are 6 stakeholder
groups that sit around NEJAC. But the real power of this is
not the fact that we know that there are these 6 stakeholder
groups that make up NEJAC. The real power is that there are
these diverse groups and people who come together and they are
able to establish friendships and to reach consensus around
some very difficult issues. When I hear people, you know,
from industry say I really, really learned a lot from this
person from the community, or a person from academia saying I
really learned a lot from this person from state government,
that is where the real power comes -- diversity, working
together, and bringing together a common set of advice and
recommendations around critical environmental justice issues.
(Slide)
To date, there have been 17 special NEJAC reports.
And the document that Victoria mentioned, on the cover and
back of this report are all the 17 special reports that have
been issued by NEJAC over the last 15 years. The most recent
reports are on the front, and the early reports are on the
back. There was a lot of debate. I heard from a lot of
people as to which set of reports ought to go on the front and
which ought to go on the back. But I leave that up to the
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NEJAC.
(Slide)
But anyway, in response to those 17 set of reports
and advice and recommendations, there have been 7 official EPA
responses to date. But even though EPA has not always
responded officially to those reports, in many ways EPA has
provided responses in changes to programmatic policy, for
example, and other changes to Agency programs that resulted
from those reports. For example, the cumulative risks and
impacts report did not get an official Agency response, but it
spawned, for example, the CARE program, which has obviously
been a very successful and major Agency initiative. So, EPA
has responded to these recommendations in various ways.
(Slide)
The study methodology that took place over the last
8 months was as follows: We reviewed for about 3 months all
those reports that Victoria gave us, that you have the CD for
and that are on the EPA OEJ website. Took us about 3 months
to go through all those reports of meeting -- 25 meetings and
special reports and advice. It took another couple of months
to interview 44 people, current and former NEJAC members and
current and former EPA officials. That is the database, if
you will, that led to this report that you have.
(Slide)
The literature review was completed, and we looked
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at a lot of specific issue topics that were requested by EPA
that NEJAC look at.
(Slide)
The interviews -- there were 20 current and former
NEJAC members and 24 current and former EPA officials who were
interviewed in developing this report.
(Slide)
And here is the list of -- and many of you know
these folks and many -- some of these are folks who are
sitting around the table, the 20 current and former NEJAC
members that were interviewed, and some of them, like Mathy
Stanislaus, is now an EPA official, that have contributed to
the body of information that led to this report.
(Slide)
And then we have the current and former EPA
officials -- 44 -- 24, I'm sorry -- and these are also people
that you know quite well. I did not interview myself, by the
way. I must point out that Joy Lee, who is with me, from MDB
also contributed to the study and in a big way and so we
all -- we did this effort together and we interviewed these
people and the information we got was quite invaluable. So
these are the questions that we looked at as we interviewed
people: What has been your involvement? What are the most
significant successes? What value has NEJAC provided over the
last 15 years?
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(Slide)
Next set of questions included things like, you
know, how can NEJAC be improved? How would you measure the
success of NEJAC? A tough question, as Victoria mentioned
earlier. And how would you measure the success of NEJAC going
forward? What would the world be like if NEJAC did not exist?
Anyway -- so we heard a lot of -- we got a lot of good
answers, as you can imagine.
(Slide)
So, the major advice, and I am not going to go
through these obviously in detail -- they are all covered in
some detail in the report you have, but as we thumbed through
these next series of slides, you will see that over the last
15 years, NEJAC has contributed a lot to the environmental
justice framework we know in this country, the mall plan for
public participation published initially in 1994, updated in
2000, has been used in hundreds of meetings around this
country as a way to really -- how -- as to how to really get
engaged and do public participation in a real way in this
country, one of the first products produced by NEJAC. The
Brownfields effort that Charles Lee was involved in on
Brownfields revitalization and urban culture changes to get
the communities more involved and redevelopment of
contaminated property in this country, the Superfund
relocation policy.
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(Slide)
The enforcement roundtables that were held in 1996
in San Antonio, Texas, and North Carolina in '97.
The waste transfer station guidance.
The roundtable on U.S.-Mexico border issues.
Environmental justice in the permitting process that
led to the legal authorities memo that came out of EPA in late
2000 .
The community-based health model forum that was held
in Atlanta with ATSDR and CDC.
The Federal Facilities Report.
(Slide)
The great work that was done around tribal
government and indigenous community involvement.
The work on integration of environmental justice in
other Federal programs beyond EPA back in 2000 through 2002.
The NEJAC strategic plan that came out in 2001 that
had a lot of great recommendations as well, and EPA responded
to that.
(Slide)
There was a fish consumption report that came out of
the Office -- that was done and made recommendations to the
Office of Water about how to better deal with water quality,
fish consumption policies, etc.
Pollution prevention report that came out of NEJAC
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in 2003.
The great report I mentioned earlier on cumulative
risks and impacts.
The environmental justice and how tribal
environmental regulatory programs incorporated environmental
justice considerations into their programs as well.
(Slide)
There was a report on the unintended results of
Brownfields redevelopment that came out in 2006.
The Gulf Coast hurricanes report.
(Slide)
The next set of reports was the stakeholder
involvement report that -- and all three of those last
reports, by the way, EPA responded to in 2007, and that is a
model that I think NEJAC needs to continue for the future,
where -- when NEJAC provides a report, I think EPA needs --
owes it to NEJAC to provide an official response to NEJAC as
to how it will address and deal with the recommendations that
have come out of the NEJAC on a particular issue. That has
not always been the case up until the last couple years.
The Environmental Justice Achievement Awards Program
that is continuing in 2009.
I mentioned earlier that NEJAC has had major impacts
on the CARE program, the diesel retrofit program as well.
EJ grants.
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Job training initiatives.
The creation of the American Indian Environmental
Office.
And many other EPA initiatives over the years that
there is clear documentation, as you read these reports like I
did, that NEJAC has played a major role.
(Slide)
So, what are the major findings?
First, that everybody I talked to and interviewed --
EPA, NEJAC officials current and former -- feel that NEJAC has
provided an outside perspective from diverse stakeholders,
those of you who sit around this table, that EPA managers and
staff would not otherwise have access to except NEJAC being
there. It brings together a diverse group of six or more
stakeholder groups to deal with EJ issues in a constructive
way. I think that is a real testament to NEJAC over the last
15 years, and it has played a significant role in educating
and sensitizing EPA managers and staff, me included, and,
Steve, you as well, as you get more engaged in these issues.
I thought at first back in 1994 that I knew how to
deal with environmental justice. I called together a meeting
on environmental justice in Atlanta, but I didn't involve the
stakeholders who I was meeting with before I got there, and
they said, "Mr. Fields, you can throw away this agenda because
we have not been at the table as you developed this agenda for
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the meeting." So I learned real quick that I didn't really
know how to deal with environmental justice until I was
sensitized in a very blunt way by stakeholders like yourselves
as to how to really get engaged on EJ issues.
(Slide)
We also found that without NEJAC over the last 15
years, everybody I talked to felt that EPA would not have
dealt with many EJ -- the major EJ issues in an effective way.
NEJAC played a significant role in making sure that EJ issues
were addressed in a consensus, collaborative and fair and
equitable way that would not have been done if NEJAC did not
exist.
I identified also, as I pointed out, that EPA has
not always done a good job of responding to the advice and
recommendations that NEJAC has provided. EPA has taken steps
in recent years to improve that, but that has been a problem
that needs to be fixed.
(Slide)
There are kind of two views about NEJAC as you look
back over the last 15 years, depending on who you talk to,
when they were on the Council, when they were engaged at EPA.
There is one school of thought, and it is about half
of the 40-plus people I talked to, who feel that the Council
has improved as it began to focus on the broader EJ policy
issues rather than local community issues, and it has provided
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some very high quality reports and recommendations to EPA. I
agree with that assessment as well.
I also agree with the second assessment as well. I
heard from some people, because I knew where they were coming
from, which was that they feel that the Council declined in
recent years because there was a waning number of active
community members participating. There was a lack of adequate
numbers of meetings. As you recalled, from April 2004 until
the fall of 2006, there was not a -- there were not any NEJAC
meetings for like 2-1/2 years. So, there was some concern
about that.
There was some debate during 2005-2006 about where
NEJAC would -- whether NEJAC would continue or not, and that
led to that sense by some that NEJAC was not what it was back
in the x90s. And then through in various times, there has
been a lesser degree of senior EPA management involvement with
the NEJAC and engaged with the NEJAC on issues, and I am
hopeful, as we heard from Mathy Stanislaus this morning, we
have Steve Owens here now, I would really encourage the EPA
managers to really get engaged with NEJAC.
I am glad to hear and see that tomorrow morning
Cynthia Giles is going to be here and that the EJ Executive
Steering Committee will be engaged with NEJAC tomorrow as
well. I think that needs to continue. To have -- to make
NEJAC as effective as it can be, EPA senior management needs
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to be engaged with NEJAC on these very important issues.
(Slide)
In order to measure the success of NEJAC, we found
that one barometer that a lot of people agreed with in terms
of how you measure the success of NEJAC is the impact that
NEJAC recommendations and advice have on EPA programs,
policies and activities, and we can cite examples of those
that we can all -- that I am sure that everybody can point to.
(Slide)
Another measure of success is the real impact that
NEJAC has on the ground on real issues that are confronting
people in communities. Charles Lee and Mathy Stanislaus
mentioned this morning the Superfund relocation effort in
Pensacola, Florida, as one example of that.
(Slide)
Another measure of success is the quality of the
reports. I want to commend NEJAC, as I read back through
these reports in addition to getting bleary-eyed for reading
them over three months, I was really impressed with the
quality of the reports and the advice and recommendations made
by NEJAC over the years. You have produced an outstanding set
of reports on a variety of topics, and even though some of
those recommendations have not yet been responded to, that the
reports themselves are still quite good and quite excellent
and ought to be proud -- you ought to be proud of those.
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NEJAC has also helped us, as Richard Moore and
others mentioned in their remarks this morning, have helped to
sensitize EPA to the needs of tribal government and indigenous
communities. And two excellent reports have been produced by
NEJAC on these topics, in 2000 and 2004.
(Slide)
And then, lastly, I want to turn to the
recommendations that are in the report. These were
recommendations based on the interviews, recommendations based
on the body of the reports that I read, as to how we believe
NEJAC can be even more effective as an advisory organization
going forward in the future.
(Slide)
First, and these are not in priority order by the
way, but first, I think, as was mentioned earlier, this is a
great opportunity. You have a new Administration. And you
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are celebrating -- Victoria has brought us here to the 15
anniversary celebration. We have a great opportunity now, and
we have the Administrator of EPA coming to meet with you and
talk to you this afternoon, so I think it is a good
opportunity now to look at, given the lessons learned, what
can be done to revitalize NEJAC going forward? And so I think
all of you can be a critical part of that as we look to the
future.
One thing that is critical is senior EPA officials
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and mid-level managers need to be actively involved and
engaged with NEJAC. NEJAC cannot do it alone.
Representatives of the EJ Executive Steering
Committee, other senior officials that are here in the
audience and at this meeting need to attend these meetings and
really have an engagement and dialogue with NEJAC on critical
issues that you are engaged in, that you are work -- that you
are developing recommendations on as a work group and as a
full Council. I think that is critical.
(Slide)
Adequate resource support is also an issue that EPA
will obviously have to be challenged with over the next few
years.
Some of the -- some of what we are recommending
obviously is going to require resource support. OEJ and the
regions will need to support EPA NEJAC activities to do this.
The general sense I got was that many stakeholders believe
that the current NEJAC budget is not quite adequate, needs to
be increased, in order to fully implement some of the
recommendations we are making today.
There is a need for a better feedback mechanism
between NEJAC and EPA regarding the advice and
recommendations. I think the progress, as I mentioned
earlier, between 2007 and 2009 is commendable and needs to be
continued, but there needs to be some improvements in making
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sure that when NEJAC provides advice that EPA is responding in
a timely way. Next one.
(Slide)
As in the case in earlier years, there is a concern
that, as NEJAC deals with issues like goods movement or
climate change or other issues that you are addressing that
are critically important, that there ought to be, in addition
to the NEJAC, an ability to bring community members or
community-based organizations to actually be a part of that
discussion when you are talking about a subject that they are
germane to, to actually have them come and present testimony
on that issue as part of the dialogue, not part of the public
comment period but actually be engaged with NEJAC as you are
discussing those issues that you are going to be providing
advice and recommendations to EPA about.
I talked about the need for EPA to be more timely.
I am suggesting that EPA try to respond in less than one year
-- when NEJAC provides a major report or set of
recommendations to EPA, that the Agency respond in writing to
those recommendations in at least with -- you can do it sooner
or greater, but at least within a year of the time of getting
that advice from the NEJAC.
(Slide)
We need to -- we talked earlier about the feedback
mechanism.
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Well, one critical feedback mechanism as well is
even though EPA responded to the three reports I mentioned on
-- in February, 2007, a criticism I heard from several NEJAC
members, as well as EPA staff, was that EPA not only needs to
respond to the NEJAC recommendations, but they need to advise
NEJAC as to what they are doing over time as they take
corrective action and implement the recommendations that they
have agreed to that came out of that NEJAC advice. What
activities have occurred since 2007 as EPA continues to
respond to a set of recommendations from the NEJAC?
We also -- and Victoria mentioned this -- this
meeting, the CD that has been provided, the reports that are
on the OEJ website. In some cases we believe that EPA and
NEJAC need to review prior major NEJAC reports and insure that
adequate EPA responses have been provided to some of those
reports. I can cite some examples where we believe that there
probably needs to be a fuller response by -- on the part of
EPA to some of the recommendations that have been made by
NEJAC in the past.
(Slide)
Performance. And I know this is debatable, but just
for -- to give you red meat to chew on, ways in which we
believe that the performance of NEJAC should be measured in
the future going forward, would be: What impact are you
having on EPA programs, policies and activities? What
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influence are you having to change how EPA addresses those EJ
concerns as they change their policies, programs and
activities?
Secondly, whether EPA -- whether NEJAC is focusing
on the correct priority EJ issues. It doesn't do any good for
NEJAC to focus on the wrong set of issues if there are higher
priority issues that NEJAC ought to be addressing at a
particular point in time.
Thirdly, whether NEJAC activities are making a
difference in communities out there where we all come from.
Is NEJAC changing lives for the better, achieving risk
reduction in communities where people live?
And, lastly, the quality and the number of reports
that are prepared by NEJAC on critical EJ issues that EPA and
communities are confronting.
(Slide)
Another critical recommendation -- and, again, this
one is a little touchy for the regions and for EPA as well.
The NEJAC members that I talked to, current and former, as
well as EPA, all agree that NEJAC ought to primarily focus on
broad EJ policy issues. That is the focus that has evolved
from the late x90s till now, the last decade.
But in return for that, they say that is -- they
would agree with that as long as the local EJ issues that they
believe also are important are being dealt with in some form.
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The recommendation is that the EPA regions should
conduct at least annually some form of EJ listening session,
EJ forum, where they are hearing from stakeholders at the
local level and getting input on issues that need to be
addressed by those stakeholders and by government, whether it
be EPA, states -- Jody, they are recommending that states be
engaged in that dialogue for sure.
For example, just this past six months, and Cynthia
Puerifoy from Region IV has been involved in this, EPA Region
IV worked with the State of South Carolina and they did four
EJ forums in the state of South Carolina on -- all across the
state. That is just one example, but in return for NEJAC only
focusing on those broader EJ policy issues, people feel that
the regions need to conduct periodic EJ forums.
Next, NEJAC would like to get, we believe should
get, periodic summaries of the major outcomes of those
regional EJ forums. Mustafa and Victoria have suggested in
discussions we have had that they -- those summaries could be
put up on the OEJ website or list serve so that people could
have access to those summaries of those periodic meetings.
One thing as a caveat, though: Although people
believe that NEJAC should focus on those broader EJ policy
issues, NEJAC, they believe, should focus on those region
specific EJ issues which become nationally significant -- for
example, the -- you know, we all are very familiar with the
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issue of coal ash and how that has become a national issue in
the last few months, and Lisa Jackson has, and Region IV as
well, have all taken some real ownership of that issue going
on. So, on occasion, it may be that the NEJAC and its
leadership may decide to get involved in a local issue that
becomes nationally significant.
(Slide)
We believe, and we encourage NEJAC to continue its
policy of having meetings about twice a year. We know that
cannot always occur, but as a goal, as a guide, we believe
twice a year is about right.
We also believe that a couple of year public
teleconference calls is good as well. A lot of people feel
there ought to be something in between the NEJAC meetings, and
those teleconference calls have apparently been very effective
to keep that dialogue and public participation going.
We talked about the broader -- focus on broader,
cross-cutting policy issues for the future as well.
(Slide)
NEJAC and EPA together should decide on its
priorities and set an agenda for those significant EJ issues
that you ought to be confronting, and they may or may not be
the priority issues for the Administration, but that is
something that EPA and NEJAC ought to work on together. I
will talk later about how we believe you should do that.
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NEJAC and EPA should continue to strive for high
quality in its membership, diversity in its membership, and
balance in the makeup and membership of the NEJAC. And as I
look around the table, I think you have done a fairly good job
of that. But, you know, that should continue obviously in the
future.
(Slide)
The way to deal with this agenda issue has been
recommended by many, several of the members of this Council
who I talked to, is that they ought to recreate, reestablish a
small agenda committee, five or six people who are part of the
NEJAC, who would work together with the Chair of NEJAC and the
leadership of OEJ, to define the ongoing and future agenda for
NEJAC meetings. That should be a standing committee of the
NEJAC that would work together to help define the future
issues that NEJAC should focus on.
Another thing I heard a lot about -- some of you
will become -- over the next year or so, you will become
alumni of NEJAC, and you obviously bring a lot of valuable
expertise and resource support to the table. So a
recommendation I heard from several was that former NEJAC
members, to the extent possible, you should try to keep them
involved or as a resource in NEJAC activities. And that
is -- I saw that EPA is doing that, saw that Vernice Miller-
Travis, for example, is involved as a member of the work group
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looking at the definition of solid waste and the schools issue
around toxic siting. So I think that is one example of how
you get former NEJAC members engaged and involved in NEJAC
activities as a resource to you all.
(Slide)
This is obviously a resource issue as well. Another
recommendation we make is that -- I swore to the regions who
complained that they had never had a NEJAC meeting in their
regions I would make this recommendation -- but there have
been some regions, as I pointed out, where there has not ever
been a NEJAC meeting. And I would just suggest to EPA over
time that it work with NEJAC to look at hosting meetings in
those -- particularly those four regions where NEJAC meetings
have never been held in your 15-year history. That would, I
think, be helpful to everybody involved.
NEJAC should engage with other Federal agencies as
appropriate as a partner with EPA as you -- one of the -- part
of the charter for NEJAC is that it help EPA to extend
feasible and engaging with other Federal agencies in
addressing critical EJ issues.
(Slide)
Lastly, every -- the one thing that was a unanimous
recommendation from everybody was that NEJAC should continue
in the future with a proviso that it make some recommended
improvements along the lines of what we provided today. So,
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that is the set of recommendations.
Lastly, in terms of working -- me and Victoria
talked about this -- we are having this meeting today, July
21st. You are getting the presentations, you are getting a
draft of the report. We were asking that the comments by
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NEJAC on the report come to us by the 17 of August, which is
-- gives you about a little over 3 weeks to get your comments
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m. That is a Monday, by the way, August 17 . And that would
give us time then to take those comments into consideration
and produce a final report by the end of the fiscal year.
So, that is it. Thank you very much.
(Applause)
Questions and Answers
MS. ROBINSON: I wanted to thank Tim and his crew,
Joy Lee particularly, for all their hard work, and really, I
mean, to really, as he said, slug through the reports. I
mean, those who have written them know what it is like to have
put them together, let alone to have them all sit in front of
you bound or printed out in front of you and having to read
through them and to identify and see those trends and the
recurring themes that have been through most of the reports.
We are going to go ahead and open it up to
questions, and I think John was the first who had his -- John
Ridgway, had his hand up first.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Tim, thanks, very, very
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much.
I find these recommendations refreshing and it is
good to get them out in the light of day and a lot to work
with.
On behalf of planning with the Chair, Richard, and
Elizabeth and Victoria, and I have talked to Tim about this,
too -- this is directed as much to the Council as Tim. There
is an assignment here for the Council in relation to what we
have heard, what is in this report, for you to consider here,
and that is that I would like to ask the Council members to
volunteer to read just one of these reports. And we will
figure this out a little bit later so that there is not
duplication.
But a question for Tim earlier was, and maybe this
is a question only for you to respond to, Tim, in a moment,
is: Given there are 18 reports, we have got about 20 people
on the Council, we thought there was a good opportunity here
to tie the past with this current Council and where this
Council wants to go, such that each member, during the time
off before we meet again, will read one of these reports and
do a little research. What has EPA done with the
recommendations? Where did they send them? Has there been
any follow-up, recognition, implementation? And then come
back to the Council in the next time we meet or perhaps on one
of these conference calls that is open for the public to hear,
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in the course of maybe just 15 minutes, what were the key
recommendations, so that we all can be reminded as to the
advice that has been delivered in the past?
Also, what do we as a Council want to perhaps
consider in relation to these recommendations? Do we need to
nudge EPA to do a little bit more? Do we need to look at
these recommendations, or any one of them, in a need for us to
follow up as much as for EPA?
So the question for Tim was, you know, are there
some key recommendations that need attention sooner than later
because they haven't received attention in the past or we are
just not sure what happened with them?
So as you look at these recommendations and all the
reports that came out, I would like you to browse through
this, pick out one maybe that you are interested in, and we
will also hear from Tim as to any he thinks that may be of
particular higher priority for our consideration, to help,
again, tie the past with this current Council and where we
want to go so that we can build this into the agenda for the
Council as time comes.
So that is my question to Tim and my recommendation
for the Council, to also engage us a bit more when we are not
on a call, when we are not meeting, but in your own time find
out in your own ways and we can work with staff to do a little
research as to, you know, what program at EPA these reports
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were given to to follow up on, if at all, and/or if there
wasn't any follow-up, you know, how do we get that kind of
review and attention to some of these things? Most of these
issues have not gone away. Some are probably exacerbated
since the reports came out. So I will leave that with Tim.
MR. FIELDS: I will respond quickly. I think that
is a great recommendation, John, to have Council members do
that. I think it will help educate Council members as to the
high quality of recommendations that have been made by many
NEJAC Councils in the past as well as current Councils. So I
applaud the recommendation to get Council members familiar
with this material.
I do want to say, though, as you -- as the Council
members get a start on that, when they read the draft report
that I prepared, you will see that in some cases it is pretty
clear how EPA has responded and EPA did provide an official
response and that that is documented in my report and you will
-- it will be very clear to the Council members what EPA did
do or did commit to do with that advice that came from the
Council. In some cases, it is not very clear, and it will
take some investigatory work on the part of the Council
members to get more details. So I think it is a good idea.
A couple of the reports that I would -- you know,
again, I am just throwing these out as illustrative of reports
where I think, you know, more work could be done to find out
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more about the activities of EPA after the advice and
recommendations of the Council, would be the fish consumption
report, the report on fish consumption and environmental
justice. The Agency didn't really provide an official
response to that report, but I know the Agency did a lot of
considerations of the information in that report and the
report has a lot of good recommendations. And I think EPA
generally agrees with most of the recommendations in that
report, and so I think that is one.
Another one would be the cumulative risks and
impacts report. That report is quite good. One of the major
recommendations was that it create a multimedia risk reduction
set of pilot projects. That became the CARE program. So one
of the 12 recommendations was very clearly addressed.
But there are other recommendations in that report
that have not been addressed, and so I would recommend that
the Council and many people in NEJAC and EPA agree to that,
but I think those are two that I would, as a Council, look at
very closely and proactively. I think both of them are
excellent reports and I think there is some more work that
needs to be done to follow through on the part of the Agency
to respond back to NEJAC as to what more is going to be done
with those -- that set of advice and recommendations.
MS. ROBINSON: I am going to go ahead and add --
MR. FIELDS: Thank you!
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MS. ROBINSON: -- to that in terms of the EPA's
response. The agency response to any Federal advisory
committee, that has been an issue, I think, for members of
Federal advisory committees government wide. Ever since I
have been with EPA, that was one of the big, big issues.
They did about two years of surveys of current
members and former members of advisory committees -- EPA, DOD,
DOT -- and that was the number one issue that people have,
members have, with -- we do all this work, we volunteer our
time, we don't get a response back and/or an adequate response
back.
As we -- as you work to develop a process for how
you want to deal with some of these reports and developing a
mechanism, as one of the recommendations were, but there were
several of them that dealt with EPA's response to the
recommendations.
This is actually going to serve as a -- could serve
as a template of recommendations that you would give to
agencies that they could use for -- to model for its other
Federal advisory committees.
We had developed our current mechanism out of
frustration that gave us the initial response from the Agency,
but it does not have the follow-up component, and I think it
is going to be very important that, as we go through this,
that we really look at how members, how Federal advisory
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committee members, want to get feedback, and what you consider
feedback to be.
I know that very early on when we had subcommittees,
there was a lot of informal feedback, a lot of informal
follow-up, that occurred in subcommittee meetings, but never
were in the full Council level. And so, how do you deal with
that? And how do you make it so that it gives you the kind of
level of satisfaction that as members do we want? And I think
that is something we keep in the back of our minds as we go
forward on this.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Jody?
MS. HENNEKE: This is Jody Hennecke from the General
Land Office in Texas. First of all, Tim, thank you very much.
That was like trolling through my childhood, some of which was
very painful, as I recall.
I have had a -- the good fortune to be involved in a
number of those reports, and they were complicated, painfully
fought through and discussed and scratched out, and everybody
sitting around the room and in the audience and has being part
of one of those is kind of going, like, oh, yeah, man, that
was awful! But a tremendous amount of good work came out of
it.
Victoria, I am not sure whether what I am getting
ready to say is going to be contradictory to what you just
suggested or not. I think as the NEJAC, or really any FACA
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for that matter, I think it is our responsibility to provide
those recommendations to EPA, and I think it is probably very
worthwhile for us to provide some kind of framework for that
response.
But I don't know that I am comfortable deciding how
EPA responded. I think EPA should provide the NEJAC with that
information. I think we can make a value judgment on, you
know, both individually and collectively, whether it was good
enough. But I don't think it is within our availability even
really to decide what their individual response is, unless
they have provided a report or something like that to us, and
then I think we can make a value judgment on it.
MR. FIELDS: But you do agree they ought to respond?
MS. HENNEKE: Oh, absolutely —
MR. FIELDS: Okay.
MS. HENNEKE: -- absolutely. Absolutely. In fact,
I -- having around the NEJAC before that shift and after that
shift, it has made a fundamental, profound difference to me in
my way of thinking in the effectiveness of the NEJAC.
MR. FIELDS: Good. Okay.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Jolene, please?
MS. CATRON: Thank you. And, Tim, thanks so much
for that report. I -- a lot of what is in here were questions
that I had first coming in to the NEJAC, like the history --
how do I find out this information? Is it online? Can I --
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how accessible do I make myself to other grassroots, other
community-based organizations? And if I am that accessible,
who helps pay for that? And so funding certainly is an issue.
But I think one of the things that has really kind
of bothered me -- well, I don't know if "bothered" is the
right word -- but that I have questions about is how
accessible the NEJAC is to the groups that we represent? And
how good of a perspective are we providing for the people that
we represent and the groups and the organizations? And so
that has always been my major concern.
I think that our public meetings -- you know, I have
been to a couple, one in Atlanta and two here in DC, and as a
grassroots, community-based person coming from the middle of
Wyoming, the only way that these meetings are accessible to me
is because I am on the NEJAC. I would never be able to attend
these meetings in the capacity of a grassroots organizer or
something like that.
So just the public comment availability to NEJAC in
and of itself is highly inaccessible to a grassroots person
like me. And so that has always been one of my major
concerns. How do we open that up so that we are hearing what
those issues are out to the broader public? And so that is a
tough one.
Then the other question I have is: You mentioned
there are four regions that have never had a NEJAC public
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meeting hosted, and so I was just wondering what those regions
were. You mentioned them earlier, but --
MR. FIELDS: Yes. Regions I, II, VII and VIII.
MS. CATRON: I, II, VII and VIII?
MR. FIELDS: Yes.
MS. CATRON: Okay.
MR. FIELDS: Which includes your region.
MS. CATRON: Right. I am in Region VIII.
MR. FIELDS: Your -- so it looks like I have a NEJAC
meeting in Wyoming? Is that what you want 	
MS. CATRON: Certainly, yes!
MR. FIELDS: I am just kidding, like, yes.
MS. CATRON: We will all invite you all out to Wind
River!
MR. FIELDS: But in response to your -- so I think
NEJAC I am sure will work EPA over time, and I recognize that
there is, as you said, resources and the budget and funding
for all this is a critical issue that EPA will have to look at
in terms of how it can respond to all of this.
But, you know, in terms of public participation, we
are recommending, and several members of the NEJAC also
suggested, that we ought to try to find a way in which we
balance and try to get more public engagement into the NEJAC
discussion that is going on on a particular topic that NEJAC
might be engaged in. So I think that is something that EPA
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will try to work on to the extent it can with resource
availability to try to get more public involvement in the
dialogue that NEJAC might be engaged in on a particular issue
going forward in the future.
MS. ROBINSON: Jolene, actually our next
conversation will actually be dealing specifically with the
overall issue about how to enhance NEJAC's engagement with
impacted communities, and that is the very reason we are
having the conversation after this presentation.
MR. FIELDS: Good.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I was about to say that. Wynecta?
MS. FISHER: Hi. My name is Wynecta Fisher, City of
New Orleans, Director of Mayor's Office of Environmental
Affairs. And Jody asked a part of one of my questions,
Jolene, the other, so I am going to be pretty brief.
This is really great. I have a question about Slide
Number 32 --
MR. FIELDS: Yes —
MS. FISHER: -- where it says "Senior EPA officials
and mid-level managers need to be actively involved and
engaged with NEJAC." And who defines "actively?" How is that
being defined? And I am sorry -- I am really a matrix person.
MR. FIELDS: Well, you know -- well, it engages --
MS. FISHER: "Actively" means --
MR. FIELDS: "Actively" means different things to
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different people. But I think to -- what is going on in this
meeting is what I had in mind when I made the recommendation.
That is, you know, having people, senior people, at this --
come to this meeting, be engaged with NEJAC, whether it be
Mathy Stanislaus this morning, Steve Owens coming in, Cynthia
Giles tomorrow morning, the EJ Executive Steering Committee on
Environmental Justice coming to a NEJAC meeting and actually
being engaged with NEJAC.
But, as Victoria said when she introduced me at the
very beginning of this discussion, I hope that it turns into
something even more substantive. That is, I hope that senior
EPA officials -- and I can assure you that Mathy Stanislaus
will do this. I know Mathy, I worked with him a long time.
He will be engaged with NEJAC on issues of import to OSWER. I
have no doubt about that. I hope that the other AAs do the
same.
But I hope that engagement will mean that senior EPA
officials, whether it be Office Director, Deputy Office
Director, DAA, AA, DRA, whatever, that they will get engaged
with particular work groups that are engaged in developing
draft reports to NEJAC that could turn into advice and
recommendations. Engagement means meeting with you, serving
as a sounding board, having a dialogue with you.
That is the way that I operated, for example, with
Charles Lee back in the x90s when Charles was Chair of the
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Waste and Facilities Siting Subcommittee. I came to every
NEJAC meeting. I participated in the work group sessions. I
was there. And my staff were there because I was there.
So I hope that that is the kind of engagement I hope
occurs over the next four years between senior officials of
EPA and the NEJAC. That is what I mean by real engagement,
not just showing up one time, but continuing the dialogue,
particularly on issues that are germane to their
responsibility.
MS. FISHER: Okay. And thank you for the answer.
And what I would like to suggest is that after you have that
dialogue, there has to be some kind of action item --
MR. FIELDS: Oh, yes, yes.
MS. FISHER: -- because we just don't want to meet
to talk.
MR. FIELDS: No, no. I would just suggest you keep
in mind that EPA cannot provide the advice. After that
engagement, the NEJAC work group and the NEJAC Council has to
provide the advice and recommendations. EPA then, the program
officials that you might be dealing with, hopefully they would
then respond in some way to the recommendations you are
making. But the advice has to come from NEJAC.
MS. FISHER: Okay. And then I have one other one,
Slide 36, Numbers 2 and 3.
MR. FIELDS: Yes —
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MS. FISHER: And it is basically holding us
accountable, which is something that you somewhat mentioned.
MR. FIELDS: What -- I am sorry. What is your
question?
MS. FISHER: So my question is Number 2. It says
"Whether NEJAC is focusing on the correct priority EJ
issue." Who determines the priority? Who determines the
issue to focus on?
MR. FIELDS: I am suggesting that in the future it
be an agenda committee of the NEJAC, five or six members of
this body, who will work together with EPA management,
headquarters and regions, and themselves knowing what the key
issues are that are out there in communities decide, and what
are the key areas that NEJAC should focus on? So I am
suggesting that the agenda committee would make
recommendations to the full Council and those would be the
priority issues that NEJAC should focus on.
MS. FISHER: And for Number 3, it says "whether
NEJAC activities and advice recommendations can make a
positive difference," how are we going to measure that?
MR. FIELDS: You have to measure it by individual
communities and one example at a time.
I -- we mentioned earlier the impact it had on
relocating 358 homeowners around the Escambia Superfund site
in Pensacola, Florida. That became -- that occurred because
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of the involvement of NEJAC.
Another example would be, you know, the impact it
had on the Brownfields program. The Brownfields program began
in 1994 as a developer driven program. Because of the
engagement of NEJAC in 1995 and '96, it was changed where the
criteria incorporated environmental justice, became a major
criterion by which a person could get a grant from EPA for
Brownfields assistance. That began to help and to have an
impact on hundreds of communities across America.
So that is what I am talking about, where you
measure where NEJAC advice results in changes to EPA programs
and policies that have a real impact in communities where we
all live.
I would hope, for example, just to bring it close to
you, I mean, I would hope that in the future, for example,
that in terms of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina that the
NEJAC report that resulted from that and the recommendations
they made, which include the creation of an environmental
justice liaison in the emergency management center for future
natural disasters, would have an impact and benefit the City
of New Orleans in the future in terms of the support that EPA
provides to your city. But that is where EPA is really having
a real impact on the lives of people in communities.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: John?
MR. ROSENTHALL: Thank you. And thank you for
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allowing me to participate on the Wynecta Fisher Show!
(Laughter)
MR. ROSENTHALL: I am John Rosenthall from the
National Small Town Alliance. Tim, I have a couple of
questions here.
MR. FIELDS: Sure.
MR. ROSENTHALL: First, you -- one of your
recommendations, that NEJAC become more engaged with the other
Federal agencies through its association with EPA, since NEJAC
is a body that provides advice to EPA, do you have any
thoughts on how that is done from a practical matter?
The second question -- the second question from me
is a recommendation really, is that the -- I like the
recommendation about the NEJAC alumni. And a good place to
use the NEJAC alumni is with the other EPA FACAs that really
have very little environmental justice representation on them
right now.
MR. FIELDS: Okay. On your first issue, part of the
objectives of NEJAC are to -- one of those five major
objectives are to provide advice and recommendations about
EPA's efforts to strengthen its partnership with other
government agencies such as other Federal agencies and state,
tribal or local governments regarding environmental justice
issues. That is one of the objectives of NEJAC, is to help
EPA do that.
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So, back in 2000 and 2001, 2002, EPA called a
meeting of the Interagency Working Group on Environmental
Justice and they actually had them meet together with NEJAC,
and NEJAC had an opportunity to hear from all those other
agencies as to what they were doing to integrate environmental
justice concerns into their programs, policies and activities.
So I would say, you are right: EPA relies on NEJAC
for advice to the EPA Administrator, but there is nothing that
precludes NEJAC from offering advice to EPA on how it can
better partner with other Federal agencies to address
environmental justice issues, because that is part of the
NEJAC charter, so that is fair game.
Your second question was?
MR. ROSENTHALL: The second one was a comment that
the NEJAC alumni could bring benefits to other FACAs.
MR. FIELDS: Other FACAs, yes. That is not a bad
idea, and there have been some alumni of NEJAC who have gone
on to some other FACAs, I know, like Wilma Subra, for example,
who has served on some other FACA committees, and she has had
experience with NEJAC as well. But, you are right. EPA could
probably do more of that in the future.
MS. ROBINSON: I will go ahead and comment to that.
And actually something that is going on now, there is a real
active effort by the other offices to contact our office in
looking for members to expand the diversity of their
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membership. And we have been really pushing for ways for them
to utilize other members we have been engaging.
Some of our former members have served on our own
work groups, to co-chair those as well, and we are --
actually, I am going to be engaging the Office of Research and
Development on this very issue about looking at ways to expand
the diversity of its membership on the variety of FACA
committees that ORD actually is -- that they are spearheading,
which includes a science advisory board as one of them.
So that is a very good recommendation and we are
starting to undertake it. It is a new process and people are
still trying to feel their way around it, but we are hoping
that we have got something that by the end of the year we can
have something that we can really speak to and we will try to
present about.
MR. ROSENTHALL: Good.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. By the way, Tim, thank
you so much for being so thoughtful and present in answering
the questions.
MR. FIELDS: No problem.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: It really does make a difference.
Shankar?
DR. PRASAD: Tim, thanks -- good report.
MR. FIELDS: Thank you.
DR. PRASAD: And we have had these conversations
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before and they -- a couple of things. If you have such a
long list of recommendations and they are all good and they
all need to be followed through and so on, but in some fashion
is there a limit to come up with a way of prioritizing them?
MR. FIELDS: Okay.
DR. PRASAD: Whether you want to take a first shot
at it or we will be getting some suggestions to you with our
comments, should NEJAC take 	
MR. FIELDS: I like that suggestion, you know, NEJAC
providing some comments on that issue. In its comments to me
4— u
by August 17 , if you would make some suggestions on your
priorities, that would be good.
But your comment is well taken, and I will look at
that issue as we look at working with EPA on the final report.
But, you are right. There are 20-plus recommendations and a
sense of priorities is a good idea. But I do welcome comments
from the NEJAC on that topic as well.
DR. PRASAD: Yes.
MR. FIELDS: Okay, I am sorry. Go ahead.
DR. PRASAD: Sorry -- I must -- and coming back to
that same issue of NEJAC should continue its practice of
formally focusing on the broader cross-cutting EJ policy
issues. I mean, if you look at the whole NEJAC, gave its own
report, after it was on a lull for a couple of years, we came
up with that some sort of a similar recommendation.
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MR. FIELDS: Yes —
DR. PRASAD: But at the same time, we often also
hear from the community representatives as well as community
members who have come and testified here that for some
fashion, in some fashion or the other, it should have a role
in the local level. But we do not have that kind of a role,
but that we -- there seems to be some kind of an expectation
built upon by the community groups for the NEJAC to have that
kind of a role or establish its own accountability.
So I am kind of -- in a fix in order is -- that is a
slippery path.
MR. FIELDS: Yes, I had a difficult time with that
issue as well, Shankar. I heard from a lot of current and
former NEJAC and current and former EPA officials.
The compromise on this is as follows, and I would be
interested in hearing what the community panel after this has
-- feels about this. But I heard from people like Peggy
Shepard and others that they finally concluded that the focus
should be broader EJ policy issues. But in return -- but in
order to support that recommendation, they want the EPA
regions to be able to step up and have EJ listening sessions,
EJ forums, in the regions where they have a chance to hear
from and take actions on local EJ issues that may be occurring
on those regions.
So people are comfortable in general with NEJAC
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focusing on the broader, cross-cutting EJ policy issues if the
regions do take the mantle to undertake the EJ forums to hear
from local stakeholders about issues in the regions. They
don't believe that that in general should be the role of
NEJAC. NEJAC should only get engaged on major, nationally
significant, local issues -- so, you know -- that is
-- because obviously there is a resource question, NEJAC
taking on the broad, cross-cutting policy issues is a lot, end
to itself. So if the regions do take that role of really
getting engaged with stakeholders on the local issues, that
would take that need for NEJAC to focus on that away, right?
DR. PRASAD: And yes. Thank you.
The last question. My feeling of one year for a
feedback is too long, though I have been in the government for
so long, I understand. But my feeling is, in one way or the
other, at the subsequent meeting or something like that, if
they give -- that also gives them at least a six months'
period, which is a reasonable time to have an internal
dialogue and so on.
So my suggestion would be for you to sort of not
give that one year but just put it at six months would be my
suggestion.
MR. FIELDS: So your comment is that EPA ought to
have six months to respond to --
DR. PRASAD: Or at the subsequent following meeting
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of the FACA, that way at least.
MR. FIELDS: Right. I do want NEJAC to keep in mind
that oftentimes NEJAC spends two or three years developing
some of its advice and recommendations to EPA, so, you know,
but --
DR. PRASAD: Yes, you are right. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Maybe that speaks to the issue of
capacity again.
Well, campaneros, we have about 10 minutes left, so I
would suggest that you -- if you have any concerns or
questions that you want to raise regarding enhancing
engagement with communities, that you hold off for the
discussion that follows. The next member is Hilton.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. My name is Hilton Kelley with
the Community In-power and Development Association located in
Port Arthur, Texas. We are a grassroots organization, and I
am the founder and director of CIDA, for short.
Yes, the question was raised earlier, in what does a
successful NEJAC look like? And I think we first have to take
a look at NEJAC, what does it mean, National Environmental
Justice Advisory Council? And in order for us to be able to
advise EPA on any particular issue, whether it be multiple
issues or just one single issue, we first have to be educated
and abreast of that issue.
Now, for instance, in Port Arthur we are dealing
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with a lot of refinery and chemical plant issues. But in
other communities, like in Mossville, Louisiana -- I see a
good friend of mine sitting out there now who came all the way
from Mossville, Louisiana, Delma Bennett, raise your hand.
Delma Bennett and I share similar issues. He lives like 50 or
60 miles away from Port Arthur, and they are dealing with
chemical plants and refineries as well. But there are other
communities that are dealing with hog farms and various other
issues.
But I think it is important that as a NEJAC member,
I think we have to take it upon ourselves to visit those
communities with the blessings, of course, of EPA, and sort of
listen in on what is taking place in some of those
communities, and we can act as a sounding board for other
smaller community or rural areas in our community, I mean,
within 10 0—, maybe 150-mile radius. I think we have to be an
extension of the EPA so that we could bring those concerns
back to the table.
When I put out the word that I had been selected to
be on NEJAC, I got a lot of reports from various small groups
asking if I would mention their issue here before the
Environmental Protection Agency. And I am sitting here now
with a report from Suzie Canales, also from Corpus Christi,
wanting to let the world know what kind of emissions they are
being exposed to and how much. And Delma Bennett and I just
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had a conversation after the first session and, you know, he
was very happy to see I was here, and he said, you know, it
was good to have someone from our area there because he wants
to get his agenda on the table as well. And I am taking it
upon on myself and I am very happy to do so to try to have as
many issues heard as possible.
But if we look at all the issues that are put on the
table, many times we will find that there is a connection or
there is definitely a -- I think a comparison in air, water or
land issues. And once we can identify exactly whether or not
Delma's issue is with air, some kind of gas release, or the
hog farm have some kind of sulfuric odor or what have you, you
look at it -- it all boils down to a gas issue, an air issue.
And then there is a solid waste issue.
So I think once we compile our information and look
at what issue did Mossville have, what issue did Corpus
Christi have, what issue did the Houston ship channel have,
what issue did Port Arthur have? And when I put it all
together, what I see mainly is air and water. And I think
that is one way we could condense a lot of these issues.
So I think it is a -- it would behoove all of us on
this Council to take it upon ourselves and look at the other
communities in our area and try to assess their problems and
meet with them. But it comes down once again to resources.
Now, when I think about resources, our organization
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of Community In-power Development Association gets funding
from foundations like the Norman Foundation, the Seals Family
Foundation, but it is to deal with our local issue. It is not
to go outside our issues.
But I think we need to look at funding which can be
utilized so that NEJAC members can go out into other
communities and not only work with our personal issues in our
community but to help smaller rural areas with their issues as
well. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Lang?
MR. MARSH: Thanks. Lang Marsh, National Policy
Consensus Center. And, Tim, I just echo what others have
said. This is a really excellent report and very
comprehensive and well thought through.
My comment is on the Slide 37 which is on the top of
-- next to the last page of your slides --
MR. FIELDS: Yes —
MR. MARSH: -- relating to the environmental justice
forums, and we will get into that more in the next phase, so
I don't want to say too much here. But there are a couple of
things that I wanted to underscore.
One is that I think that having those -- some kind
of process at the regional level involving the states and
tribes is really essential to the agenda-setting process and
the priority-setting process that you have recommended be the
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basis on which we judge, or are judged, as to our success,
because without that kind of input, and Hilton has just given
some good examples of why we need that, it is going to be hard
for us to be able to say whether the priorities that we have
chosen to work on, whether it is climate or goods movement or
whatever, are really the things that are going to make a
difference on the ground level, at the community level.
And so I just wanted to underscore to me this is a
really important recommendation. I would expand it to not
only having the states involved, but also the tribes.
MR. FIELDS: Thank you for that addition. That is
an omission on my part. I should have had tribes in there as
well. So, thank you.
MR. MARSH: But I think -- and I also wanted to
inject that there are now in a number of states statewide
environmental justice coordinating bodies of one kind or
another, and they should be engaged in that process as well.
MR. FIELDS: Yes, right.
MR. MARSH: I would also just point out in support
of Shankar's first or second recommendation, that the other
FACA that I am on, the Environmental Financial Advisory Board,
I think almost always gets its report back from EPA before the
next meeting, which is six months, so I would go along with
that. All right?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay, Chris? Chris, do you have
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your card up?
MR. HOLMES: I have got this one here.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay.
MR. HOLMES: Thank you. I am Christian Holmes. I
have worked with Tim for a long time.
I was really interested when Tim was talking about
the three thrusts of this program over the years, namely,
advocacy work, advisory work, and program driven work. And I
would think that going ahead with this Administration that
there is a very big strategic decision to make, which is: Are
they going to do all three, or are you going to concentrate
very heavily on one of those areas?
I think the other strategic decision is, is how
community-specific are you, as opposed to how much do you go
after more macro issues?
I know with interest how often the Pendleton victory
has been raised in so many different Superfund relocations, so
many different contexts. And as an observation, I would
imagine that if you don't tackle the strategic question very,
very soon and very head-on and don't make some decisions as to
are we going to be very community-specific focused or are we
going to be more on a macro focus, that our effectiveness will
be to dilute, and it will also confuse the constituency,
namely, the people in this room.
MR. FIELDS: I just want to offer a quick comment.
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I know we are running out of time.
I think that discussion ought to go on with NEJAC
and I think Hilton's comment, your comment, Chris -- I think
NEJAC needs to decide to what extent it addresses the local
issues that are bubbling up, whether it is Port Arthur or
Mossville or other communities around the country. And if we
have effective EJ listening sessions, forums, going on by the
regions, that will mitigate that to some degree.
But, as a Council, the Council may decide that on a
national level it wants to get engaged on occasion in some
local issues, because overall they become nationally
significant. That is an issue, and decision, that the Council
has to make. But it is definitely worthy of discussion by the
Council for you to decide on for the future direction of the
Council.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: We are going to take 2 more
comments and then we are going to break for 10 minutes. So
the next one up is Pat.
MS. SALKIN: I promise to be brief, and little
commentary, but, Tim and Victoria, this was great, and I think
this is what the doctor ordered to help reinvigorate NEJAC a
little bit. Four quick comments without explanatory
commentary.
One thing that might be useful to be added into the
report is to see if we could quantify the value of NEJAC by
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looking at the amount of time cumulatively that all the
members of NEJAC over the 15 years have put into NEJAC --
attendance at meetings, calls, the working groups and so
forth. That is a tremendous amount of volunteer time that has
a value attached to it that benefits communities, including
the government and not the government.
I am wondering in the interviews that you conducted,
and I don't know if time permits or what the thought process
was going into it, but it might be valuable to interview some
community advocates or community stakeholders to find out what
they think the value of NEJAC has been, or what the maybe
unrealized promises or expectations that folks outside of
government and outside of the seat at NEJAC might have,
because that also may provide some recommendations and ideas
for the future.
MR. FIELDS: On that one, just quickly -- you are
saying community members who have no involvement with NEJAC,
right?
MS. SALKIN: Correct.
MR. FIELDS: Because some of the people who I did
interview were community activists, but they were associated
with NEJAC. And you are talking about people who have not --
MS. SALKIN: People who didn't have a seat at the
table.
MR. FIELDS: Right, I got you -- okay.
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MS. SALKIN: And I like the idea of going back and
looking at the recommendations that were made. I think I just
want to go back to something that -- an idea that I
interpreted from what Richard said in the beginning. I just
don't want to get stuck in the past. I know that there have
been a lot of recommendations that were not acted upon and we
could maybe find out why. I just want to make sure that our
agenda is equally balanced with other fresh ideas that are
going to come up on Thursday, hopefully, in our dialogue, and
that in addition to that, that we save a place at the end of
the report for not just follow-up but new ideas and new
actions for the future that might help to set a little bit of
an agenda.
My last comment is: Although are comments are due
4— u
on August 17 , I am hoping that we might consider, m addition
to written comments and maybe being summarized and shared with
the group, that we have an opportunity in a conference call to
engage in dialogue one more time as a group to react to
everybody else's -- you know, everybody's ideas and
recommendations before the final report is put together.
MR. FIELDS: That is a decision for Ms. Robinson
there to -- on that one.
MS. ROBINSON: I think it can be doable. We could
talk about the timeline, and I think we will look at
scheduling a public -- to the conference call anyway sometime
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in September, and I think that is probably very doable with
your timeline.
MR. FIELDS: Okay. All right. Count it done!
MR. KELLEY: Excuse me. I just have a quick
question I wanted to ask -- I would like to have a chance to
speak.
Now, when we go out into the community and, you
know, identify various issues, is there a direct conduit or a
person that we can particularly call and leave the information
with, or touch bases with, like, let us just say, on an
emergency basis?
MS. ROBINSON: I will respond in terms of that.
Whenever you are -- if you are out and about and you find out
information, one that deals with an emergency, the first thing
is, if it is an emergency, that needs to go straight to the
regional offices. The regional EJ coordinator, that is what
they are there for. The -- whether it is the waste folks,
hazardous waste, or EJ coordinator, that is their job, to deal
with the -- those issues.
You could certainly follow up and send -- you know,
email to me. As DFO, I can certainly forward it over to the
appropriate person to say, "Hey, were you aware of this? This
is what happened. This is what I just was sent information
about."
In terms of the broader scale, how do you forward
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over information to the Agency from people who -- about issues
you have heard about? That is something we should talk about
as part of that engagement discussion, about how NEJAC engages
the impacted communities, because it is really looking at it
two levels. Whether it is engaging the NEJAC with impacted
communities so that that engagement enhances the NEJAC's
recommendations themselves versus really, does that really
belong to -- you need to engage EPA around that issue. So --
right, yes. But it is an EPA thing versus a NEJAC, you know,
kind of thing.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay, we have -- you know, we have
the Administrator's schedule to be here at 4:00, and the next
discussion is going to be a -- well, in my view, a really
exciting discussion which is about how we engage communities.
So, the last speaker is Don, and then we will break
for 10 minutes.
MR. ARAGON: Well, here we go. Thank you. Don
Aragon with the Wind River Environmental Program. And I just
want to, Tim, just add on to what Patricia's questions were
and do some follow-up on.
MR. FIELDS: Yes —
MR. ARAGON: When I was on the NEJAC before, we used
to take a lot of public testimony out of those public hearings
and then those various topics were assigned to the different
subcommittees. Those subcommittees evaluated what was being
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shared with the NEJAC there. And I believe we passed
resolutions. And my concern is, whatever happened to those
resolutions? Were they ever followed up on, and are they
available somewhere so that there can be an audit on them to
take a look at if there were a follow-up, or those type of
things? Because, you know, even being on the NEJAC at that
time, I never did hear any kind of finality to the -- some of
the resolutions that we passed. Thank you.
MR. FIELDS: Well, I know for a fact, Don -- the
quick answer to your question is no, not all the resolutions
were followed up on. They are probably all available.
But I know for a fact, for example, the several that
I was involved in when I was -- you know, back in the x90s and
2001. For example, there was a resolution that we had
developed guidance on waste transfer station operating
procedures. Sue Briggum and Mathy Stanislaus and a bunch of
people worked on that guidance and we actually came out with
guidance in 2001. There was a resolution that we look at
changing the relocation policy for Superfund sites, and, yes,
it did. It resulted in, several years later, a change, and
the relocation of a community.
So, I know for a fact that EPA has, and it is in the
record, that they did respond to several of the resolutions.
There are other resolutions that I dare say I know that have
not been responded to, and for a variety of reasons.
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Sometimes, there was a resource issue and sometimes it
probably was a priority issue. But there are -- the
resolutions are a matter of record, and I know that there are
several examples that EPA did respond to in a positive way,
yes.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I think John has a brief comment.
MR. RIDGWAY: To wrap up, a couple things for the
Council here.
One is, again, a reminder to take a look at these
reports, and I encourage you to take into account what Tim's
draft says, and volunteer to review, and we will get into this
maybe on Thursday as far as clarifying that.
The second is just administrative. In regard to how
this Council sets priorities, I mean that is a big issue here
that we have been talking about. And I just want to make a
quick kind of a logistical comment that this Council has
bylaws that need to be updated that get into the issue of,
given we don't have subcommittees anymore in the charter, then
what do we do?
To the issue of how this Council sets its
priorities, the bylaws originally said that there would be an
EJ steering committee to do that. That does not exist right
now. So, in recognizing this with Victoria and Richard, that
does need to be addressed, and I am hoping that we can get
into that sooner than later so that we can help clarify how
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this Council looks at issues, sets priorities, in coordination
with EPA but not with one group or the other just saying this
is what it has got to be. So we need to address that in the
bylaws.
MS. ROBINSON: And that definitely is one of the
areas that we will be working on this year. There are some
revisions according to the Federal Advisory Committee Act that
we have to revise what are now called "standard operating
procedures" and that will be where we will be able to make
those changes.
But I also wanted just to make a quick comment to
kind of close up this one in preparation for the next one. A
lot of the questions are raised about what is the NEJAC's role
in how it has been perceived and what it is actually supposed
to be and what it has been over time? And, really, the bottom
line is that NEJAC, as a body, according to the Federal
Advisory Committee Act, is that you are to provide independent
advice and recommendations to the Agency. The -- it --
primarily, that is its role, is an advisory capacity.
It has been perceived, and actually has done,
accountability through its advisory capacity as well as the
service and advocate on some issues. And I caution all of us
and encourage everybody as we go through our discussion about
how we engage stakeholders better, how we address the issues
and identify what the priorities are, that we -- that the
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Council wants to address, think about this, that in your --
our role as an advisory committee and providing advice to the
Agency, how can we better engage communities to allow us to
get better advice? How can we better engage and identify
issues that are going to make us more useful to the Agency in
that capacity? That will help deal with identifying priority
issues as well as engaging with communities. So that is my --
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So we are now half an hour off-
schedule, so I would urge you to be here by 3:00 so that we
can get this party started. Thank you.
(A break was taken from 2:50 p.m.to 3:22 p.m.)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: We want to, first, before we start
this discussion, recognize the fact that there are some former
NEJAC members and charter members, if you can just stand up so
that everyone can see you. I thought we had a few. Okay. I
thought there were a few more -- no?
MS. ROBINSON: Leslie? Is Leslie here?
MS.	: (Away from microphone)
(Laughter)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Leslie is multi-tasking in the
back, like she always does!
MS. ROBINSON: That is Deeohn.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Deeohn?
MS. ROBINSON: That is Deeohn Ferris.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay.
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MS. ROBINSON: Arthur Ray. Did I miss somebody?
Richard Gragg. Eileen Gauna. That is five so far. Well,
welcome. Love to see you again.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: And thank you for joining us.
Discussion on
Enhancing NEJAC Engagement with Impacted Communities
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So now we are going to get started
with this discussion which, as I mentioned before, I was very
excited about. You know, representing a grassroots,
community-based organization, obviously this is where my heart
is.
We are going to have this discussion within the
context of what the NEJAC's role is and what our historical
responsibilities are, so I just want to put that out there.
But there were a few issues that I think, some
things that I heard during the last discussion, which I wanted
to reflect back, because I thought that they were going to be
important for this discussion. And, you know, for us to be
effective and strategic, it is absolutely necessary that we
engage grassroots communities in a meaningful way.
So, one of the things that we ask is: What are
impacted communities? And there are some communities, for
example, that one may not consider impacted, but are really
impacted, for example, brothers and sisters who are
incarcerated who may be responsible for taking e-waste apart.
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Is that a community that the NEJAC should be reaching out to,
or not reaching out to? How do we engage them in the
environmental justice struggle?
Do listening sessions work? Is -- are they enough?
Do they -- should they come together with an action plan, with
an allocation of resources, a timeline? I know that in New
York City we had a listening session where some of the members
complained that they hadn't heard anything back, that they
didn't know what were -- what the next steps were.
There was some discussion about, I think Tim
Fields raised, setting priorities, and an agenda committee
that would work with EPA staff to set priorities. What does
the process look like to do something like that?
How do we make sure that, as I think Jolene
mentioned, that we are accessible to the groups that we
represent and that we are also accountable?
When is a local or regional issue nationally
significant?
So, I think that this, and a number of other issues
that were raised, are really important to the discussion, and
so I am going to open it up now so that you can weigh in and
give your input, your recommendations, and your wisdom about
how you think NEJAC can enhance our engagement with
communities.
MS. ROBINSON: But before she do that, I would like
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to also -- sorry. This is a reminder: The Administrator is
scheduled to be here between 4:00 and 4:15, and from a
protocol standpoint, once she -- we will get about a 5-minute
warning when she arrives and then we will --
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Right.
MS. ROBINSON: -- be able to -- have to stop the
conversation when she arrives. But Elizabeth has a plan for
continuing the conversation.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Right. What I would suggest is
that, at the moment that I have to stop the conversation, that
you hold your ideas, your recommendations, and that we can
talk about them later, on Thursday when we have a section on
Emerging Issues, and that would be a good space for us to talk
about some of the concerns that don't get addressed here, all
right? So, let us begin.
Oh, cards -- I can't see.
MR. RIDGWAY: You can call on Wynecta.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay.
MR. RIDGWAY: She has got one up, for starters.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Start — Wynecta? I didn't — I
can't see people's names.
MS. FISHER: I think Omega had his up first.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay.
MS. FISHER: I don't want to be —
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Oh, okay -- Omega? Thank you.
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MR. WILSON: Thank you, my sister from New Orleans.
(Laughter)
MR. WILSON: My question has something to do with
the communities and the definition of communities, impacted
communities. And it goes back to the question that was raised
before about the regions, the regional responsibilities, and
also state responsibilities, and also, relationships between,
quote/unquote -- we have a division in our definition and our
interpretation, and we continuously do this and fairly so,
rightfully so: "Communities and tribal" -- "areas of tribal
territories."
This is something I haven't discussed with -- you
know, with Don or Peter or Jolene. But I have a question
relative to money and resources, because a lot of the tribal
territory concerns, water/sewer issues, are the same as other
low-income and minority issues or African-American
communities, say, for instance, in North Carolina.
Whether the concerns are Native American and low-
income and minority but they are geographically based, they
are territorially based within the states or within the
region, and if we could look at something that says -- that
creates -- based on what somebody said earlier, and of course
I talked to Cynthia Peurifoy about this many times who is my
regional person in Atlanta, is what we can do to bring
together those resources under the regional umbrella? Because
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I have had an opportunity to refer some of the Native American
communities in my area to other Native American communities,
and of course, it is not a hostile or indifference toward --
sort of attitude, but clearly some of the people who are
Native American in the area where I live have a closer kinship
to African-American or even Caucasian communities than they
may have with Native American people who are on the other side
of the country -- that we start looking at communities as
communities where we live.
We live right beside each other. We live on top of
each other. We go to school together. We work together. And
people don't make the division between Native American until
you have to do something that is Native American or African-
American. On a day-to-day basis, we are just whoever we are.
We grew up together, we go to the same schools, we went to the
same schools. So that we should look at that community as
community, rather than what the political structure or
government structure may be, because some of the people that I
talk to on the local level are more comfortable talking about
it on a local level that is diverse in context but homogenous
in the context of the geographical territory where we are.
I haven't heard that discussed, I haven't heard that
raised before, and I think it is something we need to look at
because it will save resources money-wise, funding-wise, if we
have state looks at hearing sessions or speaking sessions or
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problem-solving sessions that deal with these diverse
communities, say, for instance, in North Carolina, and then
those in the Region IV, rather than just looking at Native
American territories or African-American territories
nationally. Right?
I am putting it out as a question and as a
recommendation at the same time, and of course I would like to
hear from people who represent Native American and Native
American territories who are part of the -- of this NEJAC.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: That is a very good point, Omega.
I just want to add something to that, a friendly amendment.
It is just that regional -- having regional interactions is
extremely important, but there are sometimes differences that
are particular, to a particular group, which is why sometimes
special attention has to be made.
So, for example, in New York City where you have got
communities of the African diaspora, there are differences
between African-Americans and Caribbean people of African
descent because of language, immigration, other kinds of
issues. So there may be some differences there as well, but I
just wanted to add that other.
But we have next -- unless there is someone who
wants to respond directly to Omega, I am going to go to
Wynecta. I hope I pronounced your name correctly this time.
MS. FISHER: Yes, ma'am.
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MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you.
MS. FISHER: Wynecta Fisher, City of New Orleans. I
actually have two questions -- well, now I am going to limit
it to one. And when you are talking about engaging the
community, since John said it, you know -- when you are
talking about engaging the community, I think it is important
that EPA provides the community with the tools to be engaged.
So, for example, if there is a -- and I have seen
this done several times -- if there is a facility that is
getting ready to be built or if there are policies that are
getting ready to be developed, there is generally a public
comment period, and that public comment period is generally a
very small window, sometimes as short as 10 days, sometimes 25
days. And although the community might not want that
particular site or be opposed to some of the regulations, they
don't have enough facts to actually respond to the -- to
actually provide -- to draft a response for that public
comment period. So by the time they reach out to the regional
offices, that window closes, especially if it is a 10-day
period or a 25-day period.
So I think we have to begin to engage the community
in a way that they can begin to respond to these public
comments themselves, and somehow the local, or I should say
the regional, offices have to be more aware of the differences
in the state regulations.
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MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Chuck?
MR. BARLOW: Thanks. I think this is a fairly easy
question, but it is a question that leads into other questions
as we are thinking about engagement with communities.
As a NEJAC, to what extent -- because I have seen
this happen both ways over the years -- to what extent does
EPA direct the NEJAC in what the NEJAC should be spending time
on? And I am talking about national trends or national
issues. To what extent does the Agency inform NEJAC, "Please
spend time on these," say, and to what extent does NEJAC
develop its own agenda?
I am just confused, and I am just asking the
question because I really don't know which way it is supposed
to work.
MS. ROBINSON: Actually, all of those ways. And I
know it sounds like I am copping out. There are different
ways of getting advice or recommendations. But as an agency,
the whole purpose of convening a Federal advisory committee is
to seek advice about its policies and programs and activities.
And how they go about it, it varies for each Federal advisory
committee within EPA as well as with the other Federal
agencies. Some are peer review and they are very clear: "We
need you to review these." "Give us your direct feedback on
this."
Others, it is completely -- the agenda is completely
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driven by the members. They have no real -- the agency is not
asking for specific advice on any one particular thing, except
for maybe when somebody comes and presents and asks for some
input.
The NEJAC is more of a hybrid of the two where we
worked with -- in the past with a Chair or the Chairs of the
subcommittees when we had those, or the steering committee,
and kind of jointly come up with some ideas about some
emerging trends that we -- the Agency thinks they would need
some advice about, but develop some very specific policy
charged questions when a program office within EPA says, "Hey,
we would like to have some specific advice about," for
example, "the school air toxic monitoring initiative that is
under -- that is going on, we need some input from the NEJAC
about this process."
Other times, the NEJAC has said, you know, well, we
would like to provide input on Shintech*, you know, about what
is going on with that process.
So it has been both ways, and I think what we need
to do is to really step back and see how you can continue with
something like that but maybe developing a structure or a
framework around that so it becomes a reliable process for
people. I think that is what is missing, is that reliability
of that, or people who have been -- who are new to the
process, new to the Council, to know what to expect for
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themselves.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you, Victoria. Don?
MR. ARAGON: Thank you. I am Don Aragon with the
Wind River Environmental.
Enhancing NEJAC with impacts on communities and
stuff like that, that is a very interesting line that you have
there on your agenda. And one of the points that I want to
make here is, you know, we assume that NEJAC is for the
disadvantaged people that can't really protect themselves from
Big Brother and big agencies moving in on them and so forth.
But in Wyoming, I have had two very affluent
communities seek our help in supporting them with
environmental issues. For instance, in Casper, Wyoming, when
the oil company had a refinery there, they needed assistance
in forcing the Agency, EPA, to clean that -- help clean that
up and make it into a Superfund site. And we went down and
supported the Casper community. They are not a very
disadvantaged group. But yet, one of the things that I have
seen was the fact that the Agency itself kind of turned a deaf
ear on these communities.
Now, one of the other communities that is a very
affluent community in our state is Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
There are a lot of millionaires live there. Harrison Ford has
a nice ranch up there and everything.
But what was happening in our area was just across
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the state line over into Idaho, there is this nuclear waste
incinerator. It is called INEEL. And they were proposing to
build a bigger incinerator to burn more of the solid waste --
I mean not solid -- nuclear waste products and stuff of that
nature. And that community took them on, and with the help of
the tribes from Wyoming and also from Idaho, we were able to
convince the Federal government that that wasn't a good idea.
And then, of course, they wanted to ship the stuff through our
territory down to New Mexico where they would be storing the
stuff, and so it became a real issue.
What I am saying is that, you know, it is not only
the disadvantaged communities that get hit with these problems
and these programs like that. It is communities where I
believe the agencies think that they are too small or there
are just not enough people to raise enough Cain to stop these
projects. And, you know, that is one of the things that I
think that we should also keep into consideration when we are
talking about people being impacted by some of these
environmental conditions and stuff like that, and they are not
necessarily the most healthiest thing of all. Who wants to
have a nuclear incinerator in your backyard?
Well, I really sympathized with the City Council and
the people up there, and yet, you know, one of the things that
impressed me was that you guys are all millionaires, you guys
can afford to do anything you think you want to, but here is
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the Federal government just kind of forcing this thing upon a
community. And so I think in a sense what I am saying is that
the NEJAC and those -- or these kind of organizations, you
know, need to stand up for all people to make sure that what
we are doing is good environmental justice and justified.
Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Jolene?
MS. CATRON: I am just not having any luck with my
name tag today. My name is Jolene Catron, and I am Executive
Director of Wind River Alliance. We are located in Ethete,
Wyoming, which is the home to the Northern Arapaho and
Eastern Shoshone tribes. And there were a couple of things
that I wanted to address, and wanted to go back to Omega's
question about a community-wide perspective and kind of
transcending political borders.
I deal a lot with that in the work that I do because
we are a watershed advocate, and so we try to look at
different political -- we try to transcend political
boundaries and it is really hard work to do because the -- a
lot of times, everything is based on the political boundary
and funding allocations, staff allocations, everything is
based on political boundaries. But pollution knows no
boundary, so how do you transcend that? And it is very
difficult work to do.
When you talk about tribes and political boundaries,
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it becomes even more difficult because on the reservation
where I work, there are two tribes located there and they are
both Federally recognized tribes and they share the
reservation. And so it is even more difficult in that
respect, but that is just based on personal experience.
I fully recognize the importance of respecting
tribal sovereignty and a tribe's right to establish what is
right for them. But as a grassroots advocate, really the
heart of tribal sovereignty comes from the individual tribal
member, which isn't necessarily the elected council for each
tribe but the community at heart. And that is where real
tribal sovereignty comes from. And so that is why we really
work hard to work within the community itself.
And I think that when it comes to EPA and that kind
of perspective, EPA deals with Federally recognized tribes,
and so their programs go to tribal programs that are of tribes
that are Federally recognized. And I -- they are -- now, they
are starting to work with Alaska Natives or Native
Corporation. I am not quite sure that that relationship is
with Alaska, Native tribes or corporations, or how that is
being established now, but I am glad that we have Peter
Captain here that is representing a part of that perspective.
But the integration of grassroots and tribal
government is something that we need to figure out how to work
around as far as -- especially when it comes to NEJAC
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considerations, environmental justice considerations.
Even today, here in DC, there is a National Tribal
Operations Committee meeting going on, NTOC, and that is
populated by members of tribes that are Federally recognized.
It is not populated by grassroots perspective, per se. And so
I have always asked if I could attend an RTOC meeting or an
NTOC meeting, and it is like, "No, you can't be here. You are
not -- you know, you don't represent a tribe."
But, really, we do, in a way, because we represent
communities, you know, and so it is a different perspective.
And it is -- how do we go about bridging those political
boundaries? What is at heart here for me is, how do we go
about working across those political boundaries?
I think really what would be key here is how the
region environmental justice -- the regional Environmental
Justice office plays a critical role in this, I think, and --
as a convener, and not just as a convener of tribal government
representation but as a convener of the region, the region
itself.
Region VIII is huge. You know, the region itself,
where I live, is Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming,
Utah and Colorado. That is a huge chunk of the United States.
And I think that the regional EJ office should be playing a
critical role in convening the region when it comes to
environmental justice.
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So I would -- you know, if the regional office
invited me to an NTOC or an RTOC meeting, I would gladly go,
you know? Even if I had to take vacation time from my job to
go, I would gladly make the effort to be there, because I
think when we are looking at tribal issues, especially around
pollution, we really need to be more inclusive instead of
exclusive. And so that is what I wanted to share. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I just want to make a brief
comment, that it has always been the history of people who
have been oppressed and who have been marginalized to be
inclusive. We have always been the ones most likely to open
our hearts, our doors, and our communities to people that are
different from us, and that is really well documented from the
indigenous communities of the Americas to the African-American
communities of the United States who, despite enduring all
kinds of horrors, still opened up their hearts because their
faith told them to.
But the environmental justice movement was created
specifically to redress the fact that the most vulnerable
communities were being burdened and that the lives of our
families were at stake. And so because -- and so it is not
that environmental justice is about everybody, it is not. It
is about the most vulnerable communities, because it is those
communities that cannot move if there is a burden in their
community.
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It is those communities that don't have a weekend
home to go to, or there is a remediation in their backyard.
It is those communities that can't access the same
level of medical care.
It is those communities that can't hire an
independent engineer to review a contamination or emissions
from a power plant in their community.
I want to remind this body that that is why this
NEJAC was created, that it wasn't created to address the
issues of everyone. It was to address the issues of the most
burdened in our communities.
So I just wanted to share that because in New York
City, people often say, "Well, we all breathe the same air."
We all breathe the same air in New York City, but it is our
communities that are reluctant hosts to the environmental
burdens that serve the entire City of New York, the
infrastructure and all of that. So I just want to share that.
On the list, I have Sue next? Thanks.
MS. BRIGGUM: Thank you. And, Elizabeth, you are
doing Richard proud, and I have to tell you. I would like to
pick up on a point that Jolene touched on, and go back to
Tim's recommendation that the NEJAC continue to focus on
policy issues, and I think that is going to be a terrific
opportunity. We heard from Mathy some new opportunities for
comment. So I think we are going to have a really full plate
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on that.
And then, when it comes to our engagement with
impacted communities, I think Jolene raised a very important
issue, which is the regional coordinators. Tim's second
point was that they would be holding listening sessions and
getting excellent input with regard to kind of on-the-ground
concerns that ought to be addressed by an advisory committee
like ourselves.
Would it be possible to maybe complement the charges
that we get from the program offices with some -- what you
suggested, Victoria -- you said reliable input in terms of the
EJ coordinators who would say, you know, we had listening
sessions, we have gathered this information, and we offer
these as priority issues that should be considered in terms of
potential NEJAC reports? That might be one way to get that
ground truthing that you are talking about, but also kind of
respect the fact that we are just an advisory committee, we
have no decision-making authority, we give advice. And we
wouldn't raise expectations that we could do more than we
actually can.
MS. ROBINSON: Sue, I think it is a very good
suggestion because for those who, you know, worked on work
groups, any number of them within the NEJAC, you know that we
do look to EPA and staff as resources on a variety of issues,
technical issues, and I think it is important that we also
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look to the EJ coordinators to provide a technical capacity as
well for the ground truthing.
I think we are doing that on the school air toxic
monitoring work group with Cynthia Peurifoy. She has been
very actively involved and supportive of that work group. And
I think we have to make sure that we remember to include that
as part of that set-up.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Jody?
MS. HENNEKE: Thank you. Jody Hennecke, Deputy
Commissioner with the Texas General Land Office. And I am
going to try to make my remarks fairly succinct, and for some
folks in the audience, like Larry Starfield and Sam Coleman, I
really can cut it down right to the chase, I swear.
There are a couple of things that I do want to touch
on, and one of those is agendas. And I don't want to be too
terribly repeatedly redundant, and, yes, I know, I did that on
purpose, and that is under the heading of "we are an advisory
group." We should be, I think, working on those very, very
difficult items which EPA believes they need advice on. It is
under the heading of "this work is complicated, difficult, and
nobody has luxury time."
So I would like to spend my time working on items
that will be of use by EPA. That is one thing.
Then the other is I don't -- I really, really
struggle, both in my role within the state as well as on this
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FACA, trying to stay away as much as is possible from creating
unrealistic expectations. And some of the -- most, at least
in my opinion, productive work that this FACA has done has
been more on the macro level, things like -- and it was truly
one of the more painful moments of my life -- working through
the insuring risk reduction in communities with multiple
stressors with environmental justice and community risk and
impacts. That was profound, meaningful work that could be
applied to any environmental justice community in this
country.
So I think it is, to quote my daughter when she was
about two, "more better" --
(Laughter)
MS. HENNEKE: -- to do something that could be
multiply applied rather than working on an individual site,
which is not to make light of the difficulty, the pain, the
complications of those residents within the proposed area of
that site, not to diminish that at all. I just, from my
perspective, think that it is much more meaningful to do it --
to work on much more of a macro level.
The other thing, and I have said this a little
earlier, but I want to say it again, being redundant, and that
is: I think it is most helpful for the regional offices -- my
dream world for some of the regional offices, certainly in
Region VI, is to have something that would be much more akin
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to a current public participation listing opportunity for each
of the states within their region because they are so
different. I have worked a long time between Oklahoma and
Texas and Louisiana, and the opportunities for an individual
to participate in that permitting process is profoundly
different and it is complicated at best within each region
that has a large industry base to know what those requirements
are across all media, much less for the region to know what
they are across all media across all their states.
And with that, I will put my card down.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Wynecta?
MS. FISHER: Yes. I will -- since I was able to
speak before, did you want to get the individuals over there?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: 	 next person.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes, I am Hilton Kelley with the
Community In-power Development Association. We are a
grassroots organization located on the Gulf Coast in Port
Arthur, Texas, and we deal with refinery, chemical plant
issues and revitalization.
I was just on the phone. We are trying to work on
a land issue that is owned by industry. And the reason why I
am bringing this up is because I think this can resonate
throughout our nation when it comes to other communities as
well. But whenever you are trying to do land remediation from
industry and there has been a serious impact in the low-income
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areas, it seemed like there is a long list of levels that you
have to go through to sort of get down to the paperwork on how
to get land transferred from that particular industry, even
though the land has not been in use for years. But yet when
it comes time to try to do something to revitalize that
property, it seems like the only thing I think on the regional
level they can do is give you money to assess the situation.
And in communities like Port Arthur, Texas, where there is a
disproportionate number of industries that have impacted our
area and left lands that are now somewhat contaminated, I
believe that there needs to be a mechanism put in place in
which we can get the funding to actually start doing the work
that it will take to recover that land.
For instance, we have ideas to do solar panel forms
and what have you, and this also would help to create green
jobs. And what we are being told is that, well, on the local
level all you could do is get the assessment funding, but then
you have to go to DOE to actually apply for the funding to
actually do the work, and it is a long process.
So I think it would be to our best interest to look
at ways in which we can shorten the process to help impacted
communities to get on the ball with creating new jobs and
getting dilapidated areas cleaned up. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: John?
MR. RIDGWAY: I have this question for Victoria and
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Charles in terms of how we engage in -- this is something that
was never clear to me -- and that is, how do you advise the
Council members individually to engage with either the groups
that we generally represent by organizational structure and/or
regionally?
I certainly have gotten many messages from people in
my state and in my region recognizing when I am on the NEJAC
to consider one issue or another, take a message along. But
how do you see our individual roles in this topic relative to
-- as distinct from the Council as a whole?
MR. LEE: Thanks, John. Before I give an answer or
just kind of give some context, I just want to make sure that
we are recognizing all the people that just stepped into the
room, and there are a lot of them. And as we had a very
successful EJ Executive Steering Committee meeting, and that
of course consists of the Acting Regional Administrators, the
Deputy Regional Administrators, the Deputy Assistant
Administrators and many other people.
So I guess if I could ask each of you just to
introduce -- those of you who are principals in terms of
the -- our Executive Steering Committee, just to introduce
yourselves? Michelle?
(Executive Steering Committee introductions)
MR. LEE: So -- and also, I just wanted to make sure
we recognize the two persons that came into the room and sat
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at the table, and you have got to treat them very nicely
because they are my bosses.
(Laughter)
MR. LEE: One is the Deputy Assistant Administrator
for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance,
Catherine McCabe. Catherine, did you want to say something?
MS. McCABE: I would just like to say hello to all
of my old and new friends on the NEJAC. It is so good to see
you again. And we have a very special person to introduce to
you today. Charles?
MR. LEE: And the other is the new Assistant
Administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance
Assurance, Cynthia Giles. And, I don't know -- Cynthia, do
you want to say anything today? You are going to talk with
her tomorrow and she is going to spend about three hours with
us in the morning.
MS. GILES: Thank you, Charles. I just wanted to
say hello. I am really looking forward to working with the
NEJAC and looking forward to having some time to talk with you
tomorrow, so I won't take up more time on your agenda today.
MR. LEE: Great. Now I am going to respond to
John's question, if you remember what that was --
(Laughter)
MR. LEE: -- and try to give some context. And, you
know, it was great hearing all of you talk about ways in which
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we can strengthen stakeholder engagement particularly with
impacted communities. And the -- this kind of grew out of a
number of observations and interactions and also some of the
findings of Tim Fields, the report that you heard about, in
4— u
terms of the 15 anniversary of the NEJAC. And if I am not
misstating it, I think it is -- I -- you know, we need to
be -- confront the fact that the interactions that EPA,
through the NEJAC and the NEJAC as a Council with impacted
communities could be strengthened.
There are reasons for that in terms of, you know,
the way that the NEJAC has chosen over the last several years
to pursue its business as far as policy recommendations which
are quite positive. And I think that it is not something that
you nor the people that participated in Tim's study wants to
lose.
But at the same time, you know, the interactions,
the engagement, particularly with impacted communities, could
be strengthened. And so that is the context for this
discussion, and it is something that we really want to commit
to getting the proper answers for, because it is not a simple,
straightforward thing -- there are a lot of different aspects
to it. And we do want to make sure that, you know, the kind
of recommendations that the NEJAC has been producing over the
past several years and the impact that they have on EPA's
actions is a real measure of what we are here to do.
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So, this is an ongoing thing. And so I do want to
introduce another person, and Deeohn, can you stand? Deeohn
Ferris? There you go! You are standing already.
(Laughter)
MR. LEE: And all of you know Deeohn well, and so
she is -- we are really pleased she has agreed to come on as a
consultant to the Office of Environmental Justice to
facilitate a work group that we want to establish within NEJAC
to provide -- to really thoughtfully reach out to the
different -- to different groups, particularly to the EJ
groups, and come up with recommendations for EPA to implement
through you regarding how to better -- how to increase,
strengthen, our engagement with EJ communities. There are
really a lot of great --
(Applause)
MR. LEE: I assume that everybody liked that?
(Laughter)
MR. LEE: And, you know, I think that there have
been a lot of things learned at EPA over the past 15 years
since the establishment of the Office of Environmental
Justice. There have been a lot of things learned out in those
-- in the communities regarding how to address these types of
issues. And, you know, it is my hope that -- I mean, this
work group is not just about how to communicate better, but it
is how to take all that and kind of harness that in a way that
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really we can kind of begin to institutionalize in terms of
the work of this Council.
So, you know, that is the context for -- you know,
the way to answer that may be a roundabout way of answering
your question, John, which is that I am probably not answering
right now, but I would rather that a group of you, members of
the Council as well as others, you know, come up with the --
in a really thoughtful way, come up with the answer to that
question.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Congratulations, Cynthia. I was at
the Senate hearing when you, Michelle and Mathy were getting
questions and I felt at that time that it was another
historical moment for environmental justice. So,
congratulations, and welcome.
So, I think we are up to Lang. I think Lang still
has his card up? Good.
MR. MARSH: And welcome, Cynthia, as well. I am
delighted that the regional folks have joined the room because
what I wanted to talk about was the recommendation that Tim
4— u
Fields made m his very wise report on the 15 anniversary of
NEJAC about the need for regional environmental justice forums
or listening sessions at least annually to address more local
and stakeholder issues and -- but also recognizing that the
regions need flexibility as to how they address the
stakeholder needs.
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The reason that I thought that was exciting was
twofold, because I think it helps us address the dual problems
of what it is that NEJAC should pay attention to. And I
agreed with Jody that we should do what EPA wants us to do,
but it seems to me that the regional forums or some kind of
engagement process is a great way to provide some opportunity
to learn what the issues are out there that really ought to be
addressed on a national level to provide comprehensive
recommendations, you know, that are useful for a variety of
different situations.
I think the second reason, from my observations from
the state level, is that there are -- that the more
opportunities there are for community groups engaged in
environmental justice issues to meet with each other or listen
to each other, learn from each other, build coalitions with
each other for a variety of different purposes, the better.
And I think the regions can play a really important role,
together with the states and tribes, in convening those kinds
of forums and having that kind of listening and, you know,
issue generation opportunities.
So I just wanted to share that I was -- as I had
shared with the NEJAC earlier, that I am very enthusiastic
about Tim's recommendation and hope that you all look at it.
Or that we all look at it.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Chris, do you still have your card
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up?
MR. HOLMES: (Away from microphone) 	
MR. RIDGWAY: We need your mike, please.
MR. HOLMES: Okay. I just want to go back to this
kind of bifurcation sense that I have had about NEJAC for a
while, and that is, it is not a question of policy and program
emphasis. I think it is -- I think to a great extent it is a
question of the expectations of the NEJAC constituency, and
that is, to what extent are we kind of laser-focused on the
problems of communities and the demands upon the Agency in
meeting those communities, okay? And then, related to that,
is, to what extent is the tool going to be heavily focused on
the policy side, and you can achieve a lot through that, or to
what extent is it going to be heavily focused more on the
program side, the outreach side, and the advocacy side?
I just wanted to repeat my concern I expressed
earlier today, which is I think we dilute ourselves unless we
tackle very early on that delineation and seek advice from the
Agency as to: Where do they want us?
I personally am more on the program side, in part
because of the combination of talent that sits in this group,
because there are people here who have really worked long and
hard at the local level and they have achieved a lot and have
got a lot to share and advise in that area.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Most environmental justice
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organizations work on outreach program and policy, and I think
we have to address all of those things because they are all
important on the local, on the very local, level. I mean, I
can't speak for everyone, but I can say that given the number
of people that I work with across the country that most,
regardless of resources or lack thereof, work on all of those
three things. A policy comes -- it should be coming from the
ground. And program is a way that it manifests on a local
level.
On the list I have Wynecta next?
MS. FISHER: Wynecta Fisher, City of New Orleans. I
am Director of the Mayor's Office of Environmental Affairs.
I am going to request that NEJAC begin to engage
some of the coastal communities because they have very unique
problems that some of us in more rural or urban areas do not
experience. In addition to air pollutants because a lot of
their communities are located or surrounded by oil refineries
and in some cases they actually -- the oil refineries will
actually go into their community to drill for the well, so
they are experiencing that exposure. But more importantly,
though, they are losing land, and as we have more sea level
rise, that is going to be a huge issue because where do you
relocate these individuals, because their livelihood is made
on the water? They are commercial fishermen. So I ask that
we begin to look at that community.
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MS. YEAMPIERRE: We have about five minutes left.
And I agree. New York City, 40 communities are projected for
a potential storm surge, and we don't have fisheries, but we
have infrastructure and we have manufacturers on the
waterfront.
I am going to pass on to Victoria, who is going to
help us transition into the next session, which is you were
expecting that the Administrator will be here any second.
MS. ROBINSON: First of all, I want to thank
everybody for your comments, and I am looking -- really
looking forward to the work of this work group.
We are going to be sending out an email to everybody
about looking for volunteers who would be interested in
serving on this work group, which will include a few members
from the Council as well as individuals from outside of the
NEJAC.
But as we go through, I wanted to kind of reiterate
again my comment about as the work group moves forward and the
Council moves forward in responding to the research of the
work group, is that really taking a look at what is the
primary role but to provide advice and recommendations? About
what you provide advice and recommendations is the question.
And I am trying to get a sense of -- Chris,
were you saying providing advice and recommendations about the
outreach, or outreach as a process itself? Are we talking
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about advice and recommendations about programmatic issues?
That kind of stuff.
MR. HOLMES: I was trying to make a pragmatic
observation, that it is very easy to get lost in policy, so
much so that you lose sight of the people that you are
serving.
MS. ROBINSON: That is correct. And that is the
reason why the charter for the NEJAC is about providing advice
and recommendations about programs, policies and activities,
which encompasses all that. And I agree with you on that.
So, I guess now we are getting ready to turn it
over? Why don't you go ahead and close down. She should be
here any moment.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Right. So we have -- what I am
hoping is that if you have any concerns or questions that
haven't been addressed now that we can discuss them on
Thursday. We have set some time aside for discussion on
Emerging Issues.
I do have to say that there is a lot that has been
packed into Emerging Issues, everything from, you know,
climate justice to green chemistry to letters that have been
sent to us of concern by the environmental justice movement
nationally. Just about everything you want to talk about is
probably in Emerging Issues.
So -- and I hope that the time that we have
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allocated is enough, but -- so we are going to ask that you be
very clear about the recommendations that you want to make so
that we are able to cover all of those things because they all
seem really important, including green jobs -- it is also part
of the discussion -- and whatever other issues you want to
raise during that time period.
All right, she is coming down --
If you can stay seated, be quiet. Thank you. No,
we don't have to be quiet.
MS. ROBINSON: Right. It is all good.
(Laughter)
MR. RIDGWAY: I do want to -- I want to make a
recommendation, since the Regional Acting Administrators are
here, that one recommendation I would make for our Council
members in conjunction with what goes on in the regions, that
as you schedule EJ listening sessions, if you would invite us
to participate in the regions from which we come, that might
be one extra way to help merge this coordination between what
EPA is doing and what our role is and understanding the
community needs.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So I have the honor and the
pleasure -- my mother won't believe this! --
(Laughter)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: -- to introduce Lisa Jackson. And,
luckily I have things written, because I am really excited.
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So I am going to begin.
As EPA's Administrator, Lisa P. Jackson leads a
staff of approximately 18,000 professionals dedicated to
protecting the public health and environment of all Americans.
She was nominated to lead the Agency by President Barack Obama
4— u
on December 15 , 2008, and confirmed by the Senate on January
23rd, 2009. She is the first sister to serve in that position.
My editing!
(Laughter)
MS.	: Where are you from?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I am from Brooklyn.
Administrator Jackson lists among her priorities
reducing greenhouse gas emissions, improving air quality,
managing chemical risk, cleaning up hazardous waste, and
protecting the United States water.
Before becoming EPA's Administrator, Administrator
Jackson served as Chief of Staff to New Jersey Governor
Corzine. Prior to that, she was appointed by Governor Corzine
to be Commissioner of the state's Department of Environmental
Protection in 2006.
While Commissioner, she was known for her advocacy
for reducing greenhouse gases, aggressively addressing
pollution, and having an open and honest dialogue with
stakeholders in the public policy process. She was also noted
for insuring that underserved communities receive fair
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environmental protection under the law.
She is a summa cum laude graduate of Tulane
University School of Chemical Engineering and earned a
Master's degree in chemical engineering from Princeton
University.
She was born in Pennsylvania and grew up a proud
resident of New Orleans, Louisiana. She now resides in
Washington, DC and East Windsor, New Jersey. She is married
to Kenny Jackson and is the proud mother of two wonderful
sons, Marcus and Brian.
The first time that I actually saw her, her first
public appearance, was at the WE ACT Conference on Climate
Justice in New York City, and it was a moment that resonated,
I think, with the environmental justice community throughout
the United States because it said this is someone who is
really going to listen to us.
So I want to -- I want you to join me in welcoming
Administrator Lisa P. Jackson.
(Applause)
Presentation
by Lisa P. Jackson, EPA Administrator
ADMINISTRATOR JACKSON: Well, thank you. Thanks to
everyone at the -- on the Council, around the table, and
thanks to all the spectators in the back. That is a lovely
welcome. It was a great introduction and it feels really good
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to have an introduction like that, "the first sister," I
appreciate it!
(Laughter)
ADMINISTRATOR JACKSON: And I guess — let me just
start by saying we have so much to do. So as much as this
feels good and I see people like Tim Fields sitting over there
I haven't had a chance to connect with, either, all awesome
opportunities to see faces around the table and at least give
a nod. I really do want to have a serious -- or at least
begin a serious discussion with you about environmental
j ustice.
You know, first let me start by thanking the NEJAC
for all of its work all of these years. Even when you may
have felt strongly that you didn't have the support this issue
deserved or needed, you continued to fight against the
current, and I hope that you will feel over the next years
that that time was well spent, that those fights were well
fought, and that the proof is in the results that you see.
So, first and foremost, I am here to show my
appreciation for your work, and obviously to extend a hand, at
least rhetorically, so that we can rebuild where necessary the
very important partnership that NEJAC represents for the
Agency and for the American people.
Yes, environmental justice is close to my heart for
lots of reasons. Unlike many of the folks in this room, I
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didn't make my career in the environmental justice field, and
so I always start by acknowledging that that is a particular
calling of vital importance, and so I have honor and respect
for it and for the work that you do.
I grew up in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans. Many of
you have heard my personal story before. Always, the next
question is, what happened to your family in the hurricane?
My mom lost her home, as did so many people, but luckily she
did not lose her life. And we, you know, all saw devastation
that put the fact that folks were poor, and in this case,
African-American, in the front burner of our consciousness
when it came to issues of justice. And that did not -- was
not limited to -- did not exclude environmental justice,
because we all know that while there was a great environmental
injustice in the form of the preparations for and
fortifications that led to the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina
and Hurricane Rita and along the Gulf Coast, not just in my
own hometown, the environmental problems in that region and in
other parts of the country predated the catastrophe that was
the hurricane.
So whether we are dealing with lead in soil, toxic
chemicals on land that is then being used, a repurpose, for
housing or schools, whether we are talking about air toxics or
criteria pollutants, the problems remain and are sometimes
exacerbated by events, but -- as in the case of climate change
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-- but not preceded by them.
New Orleans is like other places in the country
where the burden of pollution and environmental degradation
falls disproportionately on the poor, and oftentimes that
means people of color. Sometimes, it is specifically on
minority communities.
I am often touched because, as you heard, I am a
mother, and it is even disproportionately within the
communities on the children in those communities, and the
robbing of those children of the opportunity to have a healthy
environment in which to grow is to me one of the greater
tragedies of the environmental justice phenomena, if you will.
I certainly saw that, growing up in New Orleans. I
know the President saw it in his organizing on the South Side
of Chicago. I -- maybe many of us saw it, as I did, in the
papers just yesterday when The Washington Post had a story about
how nearly 40 miles of wetlands along the coast of Louisiana
disappear every year. As a result, saltwater intrusion is
ruining the ecosystem. The marsh grasses are subject to being
decimated -- that means erosion. And that means, once again,
that the people hit hardest by this phenomena are people --
are the local tribes for whom the wetlands are a way of life.
The few jobs that are now available are increasingly
in the oil and gas industry. The fishing and trapping and
crabbing and catching of shrimp and shellfish that used to be
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their sustenance and their livelihood are in jeopardy. And
now, young people move away and all that is left is the tribe,
trying to determine whether or not it is time to relocate en
masse because their homeland is no longer able to provide for
them.
So, we all know the issues before us. We all know
that we cannot stand by and accept those disparities. We all
know that that is why we come here. And I know, that as EPA
Administrator, my job is broader than that. It is about
protecting the health of all Americans and showing all
Americans how the Agency works for them.
But we can't show all Americans without showing the
poor and communities of color, and I can't do that without
your help.
Now, I made it a point in my first-day memo to EPA
employees that our efforts should focus, not just include, but
focus, on helping the poor and underserved and those who are
disproportionately impacted. I did that quite selfishly
because I believe if we do that, we take care of everybody
else. It is not an "us or them." It is not a pie that has to
be split. But it is an acknowledgment, much like we say with
children's health, that if you are protecting the health of
children, you catch the adults. And so if you have a focus on
trying to find the poor and the underserved and the
disproportionately impacted, I think it adds real meaning to
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our work.
It is the thinking behind some of the initiatives we
have launched -- the school air toxics initiatives which
members of this group and their organizations have been
helpful to EPA on is an example of exactly that, the idea
being that we believe there may be evidence to show that
schools are not in healthy environments maybe as a result of
historic siting issues or maybe just because times have
changed.
What EPA can do, first and foremost, is get data to
help communities share that data with communities and then
interpret that data in a way, with your help, that allows
those communities to become advocates for themselves and for,
by the way, cleaner air, and for cleaner air that will benefit
all Americans, not just their own community.
Earlier this year, EPA provided $800,000 in grants
to fund environmental justice projects, and those are going to
be located in 28 states around the country.
I have also spent a significant portion of my own
time and asking my staff to hold time to message the EPA to
communities that we don't normally reach.
So I just returned, as did other EPA staff members I
4— u
was happy to see m there, from the 80 annual meeting of the
League of United Latin-American Citizens, LULAC, where we
discussed the unique challenges that community faces.
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I gave a keynote address on one day and it just was
so extraordinary to see Latinos who are united not in
questioning whether or not this is an issue of concern to them
but in finding the most efficient, effective, powerful ways to
advocate for those issues.
Tomorrow, I am speaking to a tribal group.
My favorite thing so far as Administrator, bar none,
is that when I visit regional offices -- I see many of our
regional representatives here -- I specifically ask to meet
with local community activists and groups and if at all
possible, around environmental justice issues that are being
faced in those areas. And to hear -- to, one, be able to
bring the power of the EPA Administrator's office and
notoriety to their issues is very gratifying personally -- it
makes me happy. But that only goes so far. But to hear those
issues and get their perspective really energizes me because
it reminds me that this is not something I do for the
community. All I do is hopefully give that community not just
a "see you at the table" but a voice in our decision-making.
And to carry that with me is a very powerful reminder.
So that is just the beginning. And I have to say
that loud and clear because we have so much work ahead of us,
as I started. My confirmation is a great symbolic thing. I
like to say it permanently changed the face, literally, of
environmentalism for many in this country. But I hope it also
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sends a clear message, one that you all know well, that
environmentalism does not come in any one shape or size or
color, and it is a truth that you all live on a daily basis.
We already know that environmentalism is about
protecting polar icecaps and beautiful wilderness areas, but
we also make -- need to make sure that we connect it now more
than ever with the things that occupy people's brain space and
concerns on a daily basis -- raising their families, where
they work, the safety of where they live, the opportunity to
have recreational opportunities that are meaningful and safe.
It means urban and suburban neighborhoods need to be clean and
safe, and it means that schools need special attention.
I like to say we have to meet people where they are
and talk to them in their language about environmental issues
that they understand and that they will respond to.
We have to recognize, as you all do, that no one
owns the environmental movement. It was not a stake that is
claimed early so that now for we have to try to get it. The
flag was planted, and hats off and kudos to those who did
plant it. But if it is to survive, we must not only take the
flag but we must make it a populist effort, and given the
population in our country, that means a very broadly based
effort that appeals to all demographics.
In these challenging times, as we work to revitalize
environmental justice, the truth is that we need to appeal to
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more than just ourselves.
Even you in this room who consider yourselves
environmentalists need to remember that it is about making
sure that it is kids who can't go out in the summer and
parents who don't yet understand why, making sure they
understand that is an environmental issue.
Or, like the tribe who only sees the outcome of
having to relocate, and the injustice of that, understanding
that that ties back to our work under the Clean Water Act at
EPA, and that many states and tribes do as well.
Or, whether it is tourism and clean beaches, like in
New Jersey where I spent so much time. We have to go to those
communities, and I want you to know that I get that as well.
Now, I won't dwell on down sides, because a lot of
times in the environmental justice movement, it feels like you
are trying to roll that rock up that big steep mountain.
There is a benefit to talking about these issues broadly right
now, and that is because the President is actively engaged in
trying to build a green economy around clean energy. And that
means building jobs. That means manufacturing opportunities.
That means literally jobs that are green in the place where
the words "green" and "jobs" are absolutely the most
necessary.
Communities of color are suffering
disproportionately high unemployment levels, and there is an
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opportunity to make real strides there on the clean energy
front. So I spend, as do our staff, a lot of time trying to
make those inroads as well.
I like to say if you get paid because your job is to
make a cleaner environment, you are an environmentalist of the
first order because your paycheck is coming, your job depends
on the concept of the environment being important and being a
forcing mechanism. And so that is part of what we must do as
well.
We know the Recovery Act is putting billions of
dollars on weatherization -- that is 80,000 Americans to work.
We want to see that be a cross-section of our country. We
want people to recognize the emissions cuts that come in the
bargain, but we also want to make sure that communities that
suffer higher unemployment understand the connection with the
Recovery Act and with the environmental at the same time.
I also think environmental justice is a force
multiplier. And what we talk about there is -- you know,
health care is the topic of the day. I will give you a health
care analogy.
You know, the people who get sick two and three
times the average rate because of pollution in their
neighborhoods are also the people who are most likely not to
be covered with medical insurance. And so, all of a sudden
now, medical costs go up because when people get sick, they go
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to the hospital and they get service, but it drives up our
cost and it is a drag on our economy.
In our schools, our children miss classes because of
asthma, parents miss work as a result, and all of a sudden you
have a force multiplier in terms of the impact on families,
or, of course, as you all know, in a neighborhood where
visible environmental degradation leads to redlining or other
efforts by businesses not to locate there.
In closing, I would just like to say: Listen, we
are going to have areas where we are not able to do all we
want. But there is so much that we will do.
We will start at EPA with recommitting as much as we
possibly can to the essential mission of, and the intent, of
the Executive Order on environmental justice, working with the
White House where we have some true partners there in the form
of Nancy Sutley over at the Council on Environmental Quality;
Carol Browner, who was a champion on many of these issues when
she was Administrator as well. And, of course, in the person
of the President, who gets and understands how important it is
to make sure that every American feels that the
environment/clean energy discussion is for them, not just for
some.
I look forward to our work together. I will tell
you that when we talk about returning EPA to a broad vision of
environmental protection, I don't see us being able to
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accomplish the "broad" part of that without a thriving and
robust environmental justice program. And I think that if we
can remember the activists, the folks on the front line who I
meet with when I go out, and how passionate they are, and how
much they understand and are our allies in this fight, I think
we make progress even on the days when it does feel like we
are rolling that rock up the hill.
So, thank you very much.
(Applause)
Questions and Answers
MS. YEAMPIERRE: We have five minutes. I just want
to say quickly that in the short time that you have been
Administrator, we have already felt the difference on the
ground. And your appointments of Michelle DePass, Mathy
Stanislaus and Cynthia Giles are also being felt as -- with
tremendous joy from our communities.
But I don't want to hijack the mike, so I want to --
if there are any Council members who want to ask questions,
this would be the time. Or make comments. Omega? North
Carolina.
MR. WILSON: Yes. We are very, very glad to be here
and very proud to see you speak in person, and this close up.
One of the things that we are struggling with -- I
am a community respective member for NEJAC, and I have been
working on three different work groups, including Goods
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Movement, the National Screening Tool, as well as the State
Grants Program that has already been released. And I struggle
every time I come here.
I can't speak for all community groups, but the time
and energy we take to do what we are doing. The brainpower,
the conference calls, the writings in our office takes a
tremendous amount of time and energy away from how we fund
ourselves. And that funding stream is not back in place to
help us stay alive.
We are the front line. We are the people who drive
the issue. And the issues that we drive are the green jobs --
we have made the story nationally that you just talked about.
But we are not recognized, and we are not funded. We are not
a part of quote/unquote "the political agenda of climate
change and green jobs." But we are the green jobs -- we are
not named that.
What is being done to give us, as the grassroots
organizations, the visibility and the funding that we need to
stay alive? We have been there before there were EJ. We were
there before there was an Office of Environmental Justice.
What is being done to make sure that I can come back here six
months from now and be a part of what we are doing and share
the information that I have had a chance to participate with
and learn, that I am still alive in this process, because
right now, it is very dangerously thin? And I am being as
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honest as I can.
ADMINISTRATOR JACKSON: Yes, thanks. I appreciate
that, and I will go back and look at the EPA sources of
funding.
I think your question was broader than that, right,
Omega, in terms of across the government, the concern that you
have been working on these issues and now that green jobs are
sort of hot and they are all the rage, the funding for that
filtering down? Or were you specifically talking about EPA
money?
MR. WILSON: Well, I am not just talking about EPA
money. I am talking about the interagency part of it.
Our efforts deal with just basic amenities -- people
who still don't have water, don't have streets paved, just the
raw, nasty stuff that came out of slavery that we still deal
with. And they are not called green jobs, they are not called
climate change. They are called basic amenities for life that
were denied, and the people who struggle to bring them to this
forefront, like I am doing now, are not funded. We are not in
the funding stream. We are not New York. We are not Oakland.
We are not Chicago.
So we always are pushed to the back of the line,
even when we have this level of visibility. People don't care
where Mebane is, or Alamance County is. They care where New
York is. They care where New Orleans is. But they don't care
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where we are.
ADMINISTRATOR JACKSON: I think one of the things
that I am interested in exploring is really to use my office
as a way to bring attention to the communities, what I call
"the other rural America," because we are spending a lot of
time, it is actually around the climate change discussion
right now, talking about the Midwest, and the agricultural
sector has very real concerns that this whole climate change
thing is very bad for their industry. I spend a lot of time
saying, "Well, climate change is bad for your industry, too."
Now, you know, cap and trade, you think that is bad? How
about climate change? But I think you make a good point.
There are a couple of bright, shining spots. There
was real money in the Recovery Act for tribal nations work
around clean water and sanitation issues. And I know we were
all really happy to see an acknowledgment there that for a
population of folks, small though it may be, similar to your
concerns, that there was real money set aside for tribal SRF
funding, and we will be working with the Indian Health Service
to get that out the door.
I do think that there are legitimate concerns about
how to make sure the money trickles to communities, whether it
be state revolving fund money which was in the Recovery Act
for water and wastewater -- as you know, those priorities are
set by states. And so I think that there is work that we can
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do to try to highlight the fact that we need to reset those
priorities to make sure that we are not just dealing with the
larger cities but that we are dealing with populations that
may be smaller but have much huger gaps in health or
sanitation issues.
I think that transportation funding -- I am actually
optimistic about transportation because of the Secretary of
Transportation's real commitment to livability as part of his
agenda. And so, for the first time, there seems to be a
potential light at the end of the tunnel to look at the next
transportation bill from a radically different focus.
That being said, I think we have two challenges. I
am only going to be able to do this one question because the
answer is so long. The climate change discussion is a really
important one. To date yet, many of us have not been able to
penetrate the larger discussion with the specific issues about
environmental justice communities and contamination that comes
with a cap and trade system. And I think that we need to turn
up the volume on that, all of us, including myself.
I also think that the green jobs issue, of which
certainly the Department of Labor is involved and Van Jones in
the White House is charged with shepherding, is something that
has the potential to be a real winner, win/win, but which in
its implementation is still young enough that critics are
finding fault with it before we can get the success stories
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out the door in an attempt to kill the whole idea. And so I
think we have a lot of work to do on those fronts as well.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Well, thank you so much. Thank
you. It was purely a pleasure 	
ADMINISTRATOR JACKSON: Thank you, everyone.
(Applause)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Omega throwing New York City under
the bus!
(Laughter)
MR. WILSON: 	 the bus!
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I hear you.
MR. WILSON: Thank you. We are trying to get a bus
in Mebane.
(Laughter)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I hear you! And we are fighting
for transportation equity because you deserve those buses. I
hear you. I got you back.
So -- well, that was exciting. So we will reconvene
after dinner at 6:30. We have a full agenda with more than 8
written statements and about 11 people signed up to give
public comment.
So, please try to be back on time so that we can
adjourn at a reasonable time. So, peace.
MR. RIDGWAY: But don't let them break yet!
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Oh, wait -- hold on a second.
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MR. RIDGWAY: Council members, a couple more things.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay.
MR. RIDGWAY: I want to encourage you to -- even
maybe during your dinner break here, but review the documents
that we are going to be discussing tomorrow.
You will get another reminder of this at the end of
the evening, but we may be a little glazed by the time that
wraps up. So, do have a look at the documents that are
supported for tomorrow. Thank you.
(Dinner break at 4:41 p.m.)
Public Comment Period
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I just want to flag something
before we get started. In the Goods Movement section, in your
program, if you look in, in the booklet, on Page 21, if you
look at Paragraph 19 and 20, there is some disagreement there,
and we are looking for recommendations of language that might
be able to -- that we might be able to use as input, but
Shankar can speak to this a second. Shankar, could you just
take a second to address it?
DR. PRASAD: Thanks, Elizabeth. Basically, this --
we are -- as a Co-Chair of that work group, I just want to
bring to the attention of all the Council members that, of the
40 recommendations, there is 1, this particular
recommendation, had a split opinion and we could not come to
consensus on that. So both the affirming and dissenting views
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and the reasoning has been expressed regarding that
recommendation.
Since we will have some discussion on that, I asked
all the members to kind of go through that aspect of it and
come back with some specific suggestions or specific questions
so that -- because we only have an hour, an hour or a little
more discussion on that. So I just wanted to alert every
member, requesting you to come prepared for that discussion.
Thanks.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So, we -- there are people who
weren't able to make it, and they submitted testimony. We are
going to be reading summaries of the statements that they
submitted. The full statement is incorporated into the
record, and some of those statements are actually included in
your materials.
I want to have you look at the Public Comment
section, which is at the back -- it says, "Public Comment
Guidelines" -- and just say a few things about that.
Those people that are -- those organizations and
individuals that are submitting testimony will be limited to
no more than five minutes, and institutions I think go first,
right? Is that correct?
MS. ROBINSON: By tradition is that it is first
come, first --
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Oh, it is first come, first serve.
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MS. ROBINSON: Right.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I am new at this. But it is first
come, first served.
I also want to mention to the members of the NEJAC
Executive Council that they must limit their responses to
comments -- to commenters, to requests for clarification and
to reinforce issues raised during the Public Comment sessions,
and that members are requested to limit their responses to no
more than two minutes to allow commenters the maximum amount
of time available. So we are asking that you limit your
comments to two minutes so that the public has enough time.
We know, and those of us who do this kind of work
know, that five minutes is really not a whole lot of time to
address issues that are so vast and so deep in our
communities. But what we would ask you to do is that if your
testimony is much longer that you highlight the salient points
and that you submit the documents so that we have them on
record. So, do we have the list?
MS. ROBINSON: Oh. She didn't give you a list?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: No, I don't have it.
(Pause)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So, as I mentioned, we are going to
be reading the summaries of testimony that has been submitted.
So, the public commenter is David Clark, and the
topic is "Lack of Federal Assistance to Address Hindrances to
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Sustainability Associated with Small Community Drinking Water
Systems." Mr. Clark provided the following written statement
for the Public Record.
Comments
by David Clark
[Read by Elizabeth Yeampierre]
"Small, rural communities and the drinking water and
wastewater systems associated with them are not 'like large
communities and systems -- only smaller.' The lack of Federal
assistance to address specific hindrances to sustainability
associated with small community drinking water and wastewater
systems is an environmental justice issue. EJ should be more
integrated, less 'stove piped,' into drinking water and
wastewater activities complete with a budget to back the new
integration up." Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: I am going to read a summary from
Stephen Crim. He is a Community Planner of the Gulf Coast
Community Design Studio, and his topic is "Gulf Coast Wetland
Protection and Restoration."
Comments
by Stephen Crim
[Summary read by John Ridgway]
MR. RIDGWAY: [Quote] "My name is Stephen Crim, and
I work for the Gulf Coast Community Design Studio, a
professional outreach program of Mississippi State University
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set up after the devastation of Hurricane Katrina and
operating in Biloxi, Mississippi.
"Through our work with local partners in underserved
communities, we have come to see wetland preservation and
restoration as a key component of environmental justice in the
region. Wetland loss and degradation leaves the entire
Mississippi Coast increasingly vulnerable to storm hazard and
loss of environmental quality, but the premium cost of high,
well-drained land means that poor and minority communities are
often the most at risk when wetlands are compromised.
"We ask that the National Environmental Justice
Advisory Council pay special attention to wetlands along the
Gulf of Mexico as a national environmental justice issue
because their health is affected by human activity across a
wide swath of the nation, which in turn affects some of the
most disadvantaged communities in the nation.
"In practical terms, we ask the NEJAC and the Office
of Environmental Justice advocate for:
"One, changes to the State of Mississippi's
implementation of the Hazard Mitigation Grant Program.
"Two, Enhanced protection of wetlands through the
Clean Water Act, Section 404 permitting process.
"Three, Federally funded incentives for local
governments to make local land use policy that promotes
wetland conservation.
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"And, four, improved wetland data collection."
That is a summary.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So, we are going to mix it up so
that we don't speak -- so that we are not reading out
testimony for the next 20 minutes.
We are going to call up Dr. Robert Bullard and Mr.
Stanley Caress. Are they in the room?
(Pause)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay. And the next person would be
Diane Swift. So you can both have a seat up front. And Mr.
Caress, if you could start. Thank you.
Comments
by Stanley M. Caress
MR. CARESS: Yes, my name is Stanley M. Caress. I
am a Professor at the University of West Georgia. I am also
the Faculty Advisor for the Environmental Studies Program at
that campus.
The issue which I want to bring to the attention of
this committee is the amount of -- or number of individuals
who are suffering some type of medical condition from being
exposed to a variety of different toxins.
Research I have conducted over the past five years
with Professor Anne Steinemann of the University of
Washington, Seattle, has demonstrated over and over again --
we have conducted three different data surveys -- and we have
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consistently found a large number of individuals who are
suffering usually what is normally referred to as
"occupational asthma," sometimes referred to as "multiple
chemical sensitivities," and it is a direct result normally of
some type of exposure to either chronic low-level exposure or
a massive one-time exposure to some type of toxic chemical.
Our study shows that this is a much larger problem
than has previously been acknowledged. There have been no
prevalent studies of this prior to ours, which we have
conducted three. The first was published in the American Journal
of Public Health, the second in the Environmental Health Perspectives, and
the third in Toxicology and Industrial Health.
The point is that in the 1990s this was an issue
which did attract some attention from the Federal government.
In the last 7 or so years, it seems to have just more or less
disappeared. There has been very little Federal involvement
in the issue. And what we are encouraging, of course, is a
renewed amount of Federal attention to this problem. And I
brought printed materials of my most recent study that I could
distribute to the committee.
So, basically all I am advocating is that this
problem is much larger than previously acknowledged. It is,
in many cases, debilitating. You have a large number of
people who often are in a position where their lives are
greatly disrupted by it, sometimes having to lose employment,
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sometimes even having to move out of their homes, that sort of
thing, often requiring intensive medical treatment.
So the one thing, the main point I am trying to make
here, is that I do want, or advocate, additional attention to
this problem, not just letting it sort of coast by.
I have plenty of time, but I guess that is about all
I have to say. And I do have written copies. I don't -- I
didn't know how to submit them -- I don't know -- okay, over
to you? Okay.
MS. ROBINSON: Are these additional to what you
already submitted?
MR. CARESS: These were not originally submitted.
MS. ROBINSON: Okay. What you will do -- if you
have copies, hand them to our contractor over there in the
red, or -- and she will distribute them to the members.
MR. CARESS: Okay.
MS. ROBINSON: And if we have any extras, we will
place them on the hand-out table. If it there only one copy,
then we will just make sure we get copies to the Council.
MR. CARESS: I brought 10 copies. This is the most
recent study, which was published in the Toxicology and Industrial
Health. It is titled "Asthma and Chemical Hypersensitivity:
Prevalence, Etiology, and Age of Onset."
So this just talks about how many people have this
problem, and we are talking about perhaps maybe three percent
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of the American population are suffering from some type of
medical condition, result of toxic exposure, which is an
enormous number of people.
MS. ROBINSON: Thank you.
MR. CARESS: Right. Thank you. Thank you very
much.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Omega?
MR. WILSON: I had a question relative to the health
impacts. My wife is a special education teacher, and of
course she wrestles all the time with this whole issue. What
causes some of the issues that she has to deal with, been
dealing with almost 30 years now and --
MR. CARESS: Well, there are very different ways
that people can contract these type of illnesses.
What we have been mostly concerned about is a very
shocking rise in childhood asthma, and we are wondering: Why
is this happening? I know the CDC has raised this as a
research question. And basically there is no easy answer.
But we worry about things such as formaldehyde from
new carpeting and new building materials polluting new housing
where you have young families with small children crawling
around close to the floor, things along that line.
But basically it is a number of consumer goods which
the EPA does realize give off some type of toxic exposures,
but not to the extent that when you conduct a cost benefit
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analysis that they can do any type of meaningful regulation.
MR. WILSON: Well, I was getting to that point, but
more specifically, what this kind of exposure does to the
learning curve.
MR. CARESS: Oh, I —
MR. WILSON: Do you have data on that kind of thing
where the numbers are increasing? And what does it do to the
life -- you know, the life term ability of these children?
Or, you know, and of course we are talking about -- in some
cases, we are talking about children, what it does to their
ability to adjust and to learn. Does it become a problem for
their growth and development?
MR. CARESS: Oh, yes, obviously it causes enormous
problems for their development.
We suspect -- now, I don't have -- we did not
have -- we don't have any hard evidence, but there is a strong
suspicion that the rise in autism is a result from toxic
exposures on children in normal living environments. As I
said, fresh carpeting, new building materials off-gassing
things such as benzene and formaldehyde. And clearly it is a
major impediment to their ability to live normal lives and to
develop normally, affecting their learning abilities, their
abilities -- social interaction abilities. Things of that
nature certainly would be affected by this.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Chris?
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MR. HOLMES: How do you share your findings with
regulators like NIOSH, EPA or OSHA?
MR. CARESS: Well, the normal process is that we
just go through peer review journals.
MR. HOLMES: Right.
MR. CARESS: It is just we conduct the research and
then we submit it to peer review journals. It goes through
the peer review process which makes sure -- you know, various
people in the field look at it and make sure that we used
proper methodology, that we did things the way that you are
supposed to do when you conduct these type of studies. And
then we publish it, and it becomes part of the literature.
Beyond that, it sort of goes -- disappears into that
great nether land out there where we hope that regulators are
becoming aware of this by examining the literature.
MR. HOLMES: Right. But you have no way of knowing
that they are -- that they either are or not examining it,
right?
MR. CARESS: Well, what we can see is actual
activity on the part of the Federal government. There was
quite a bit of -- an interagency work group was formed back in
the 1990s. But as of 2002, it seemed to have an impasse and
seems to have gone nowhere since then.
So, clearly there could -- from my discussion with
people in Region IV at the EPA, which is down in Atlanta where
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I live, they say, "Well, there is not much going on about this
now. We don't -- we haven't been getting the direction to
take action on it, to investigate it more." Certainly, there
is increasing evidence, but at the same time they do not have
the legislative authority to go beyond what they had already
done. So this is what I am asking, is just more -- more
attention to be paid to this type of problem.
MR. HOLMES: Yes. Well, the other way to look at it
is to look at it from the supply chain, you know, so look at
it going back into the chain, which I am sure you probably
have done.
MR. CARESS: Yes.
MR. HOLMES: Congratulations on your work.
MR. CARESS: Well — thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Ms. Swift? John, I am
sorry -- if you just bear with me. John, sorry.
MR. RIDGWAY: Just a quick clarification. Your
research was looking at common -- I am asking this --
MR. CARESS: We were looking at 	
MR. RIDGWAY: Excuse me. Just a distinction between
common household products as opposed to environmental releases
from pollution or manufacture, is that correct?
MR. CARESS: The study that I presented here is just
a -- primarily a prevalence study, just acknowledging how
widespread the problem is.
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There are other -- a lot of other studies in the
literature that examine different pathways for the illness,
ways that the people who are -- become the sufferers actually
contract it. And -- but that goes beyond my research that I
am presenting here.
This is just demonstrating that this is a large-
scale problem, much larger than is normally recognized, and
therefore it deserves additional consideration by the Federal
government.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Great. Anyone else?
(No response)
MS. YEAMPIERRE: All right. Ms. Swift? Thank you.
Comments
by Diane Swift
MS. SWIFT: Thank you. I have one copy, and I
wanted to start with a statement:
Regardless of nationality, as soon as a student
completes the eighth grade, they have two million minutes to
prepare for college and ultimately a career, and I say green,
or environmental, career. And this is based on a study from
the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. It is the basis for my
nonprofit organization called CEED, Center for Equitable
Education.
I have identified youth from underserved populations
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and tribal populations in the Greater Kansas City region.
Kansas City, Missouri, and Kansas City, Kansas is becoming --
we are in the middle of the country, and we are very strong.
We will be strong in agro- and bio-defense.
The Homeland Security Department is planning to
build, within the next two years, an agro- and bio-defense
center. We also have solar energy and also wind energy. And
I think that the youth ages 12 to 16 years old should be
prepared for the upcoming careers, not only the green careers
but also environmental careers.
So I am requesting increased funding for youth
programs that support environmental justice in education. I
am supporting improved access to funding opportunities for
underserved youth, and then an establishment of internship
programs to educate youth about green careers and
environmental careers.
We are now living in what is known as the "new
knowledge economy," where all of our decisions are based on
new knowledge. And we are all -- and some of us are further
ahead than others, and I have found that in working with youth
in the underserved areas that we lag behind sometimes the
majority.
I am asking for advocate funding to -- I am
advocating for funding to insure equal access for underserved
youth ages 12 to 16 years old as far as grants and funding is
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concerned to support the establishment of a regional
environmental justice council and also have youth involved in
those councils so that they can start now learning about this
process and not become an adult like myself and then begin to
understand about environmental justice and education and to
create a new funding model that promotes community-based
partnerships and collaborations.
In the past, there are certain organizations,
because of their size, that can hire the individuals to
complete grants, and so those of us who are a smaller number
and smaller in dollars don't really have the equal access to
funding. And I think that if we have a model that promotes
community collaboration and partnerships that there would be
more equity as far as funding is concerned. And I thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Jolene? There we go.
MS. CATRON: Thank you. I am just challenged today!
Ms. Swift, could you please give us your full name?
MS. SWIFT: Diane —
MS. CATRON: Diane?
MS. SWIFT: Diane Swift.
MS. CATRON: I would like to thank you for your
public comment. In the -- where I work, with Wind River
Alliance, I also advocate strongly for youth participation in
the work that we are doing and always am looking for funding
and ways to bring youth into the process of what we are doing
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and the work that we are doing, and have found that that is
really hard to come by a lot of times, especially as a
nonprofit.
But I think that, especially when we are talking
about environmental justice and environmental concerns, how
important it is to be bringing youth to the table to be part
of the dialogue instead of us creating the environment for
them to start. They need to be at the table as much as we
are, I guess is what I am saying, and so thank you for
bringing that to our attention.
MS. SWIFT: Thank you. And we shouldn't wait until
they are age 18 to help them make decisions about their
careers.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Absolutely correct. Hilton? Is it
Hilton or 	 it is your card, right, okay.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes -- hello, yes. I am Hilton
Kelley with the Community In-power and Development Association
located in Port Arthur, Texas, a member of NEJAC. And I would
just like to thank you for bringing your issue forward.
Some of the advice that I would like to bestow upon
you would be to get more involved with getting onto -- on the
computer and looking for foundations that could possibly fund
your particular project. They are out there, particularly
when it comes to education and renewable energies.
For instance, you might want to check with the
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Norman Foundation and also Seal Family Foundation. Those are
two foundations that I know of personally that are very active
in supporting environmental justice work.
So, just keep pressing forward, and also I believe
the Federal government has quite a few programs that might be
able to assist you in that area as well, so --
MS. SWIFT: Thank you.
MR. WILSON: -- keep pressing, and just Google it
and you should come up with a whole lot of information.
MS. SWIFT: Thank you.
MR. KELLEY: You are welcome.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: John?
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you for your testimony here. I
am curious if you brought these same recommendations to the
region of EPA for a similar type of a set-up for an
environmental justice more regional opportunity for the youth
to get involved with how that region is addressing EJ issues
for disadvantaged youth, or underserved youth. Was this the
first EPA spot for your --
MS. SWIFT: This is my first.
MR. RIDGWAY: Yes, your first.
MS. SWIFT: Yes.
MR. RIDGWAY: That would be a recommendation from
me, and not to say that we are passing the buck here, but they
should hear this as well for the region that you are in. You
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are in Kansas City, is that right?
MS. SWIFT: Oh, no, Region VII is very cooperative.
Monica Espinosa is very supportive --
MR. RIDGWAY: Oh, great.
MS. SWIFT: -- and we are just beginning as a
nonprofit organization. But, yes, they are very --
MR. RIDGWAY: Good.
MS. SWIFT: -- and Althea Moses also.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Our organization is an
intergenerational organization and our young people are on our
staff and on our board.
We do think that there is a difference between the
way foundations fund environmental justice and government
does.
Foundations often are focusing on youth organizing
around environmental justice and government grants usually
fund youth development, which is a very different kind of
empowerment model.
So you may want to keep that in mind in developing
your program. But thank you so much.
MS. SWIFT: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Is Dr. Bullard here?
MS.	: No.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: No? Okay. So, Beryl Thurman? And
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Michael Jacoby? So, Beryl?
Comments
by Beryl Thurmatt
MS. THURMAN: Okay. Hi. My name is Beryl Thurman.
I am with the North Shore Waterfront Conservancy of Staten
Island. And our organization does handle the environmental
justice issues for Staten Island. We are the only
organization that does it on Staten Island.
The reason that I am here today is I would like to
talk about a conversation I have been having recently with
various agencies, because recently the EPA came to Port
Richmond, which is one of the villages in Staten Island, and
identified a site. Basically, they verified our suspicions
that this site had heavy lead contamination due to past uses.
And they also looked at another report that we did that talked
about a Manhattan project site in the Port Richmond area.
In having a conversation with these agencies, what I
was being told -- not with the EPA, but with the Department of
Health, was -- is that: Aren't we concerned about these
communities establishing a stigma because of a Superfund title
being connected to these sites?
When I had asked about the possibility of our water
that surrounds these environmental justice communities that
are adjacent to it, I should say, the Kill Van Kull, and it is
an impaired waterway -- it needs to be cleaned up desperately
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because it has contamination issues -- we were once again
said, well -- it was once again said to us: Aren't you
concerned about the stigma of having a waterway and properties
that are near these communities, and aren't you afraid that
your property values would go down?
My response to them was: These are already the
communities that have a reputation. They are already the
communities that are labeled as being, you know, not
desirable. These are the communities where, if you are going
to put something bad on Staten Island, this is where you come
to do it. And so we already have the reputation. So it would
actually be to our benefit to have something labeled a
Superfund, provided it gets cleaned up. We really don't care
what you call it. All we want it is clean, so that it is safe
for the people who live there.
The other thing was, is that I want to talk about
the people who live in these communities where they make just
enough money not to be considered low-income and not enough
money to be considered true middle class, so they fall in that
little area that you can have 3 people in the household who
are all making $12,000 a year and it equals that $35,000,
$36,000, median income that says that this is not a distressed
community, even though they have a ton of environmental
justice issues in this community.
That is what we are running into here on Staten
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Island on these North Shore communities. They don't make
enough money so that they can get any kind of government
assistance and they don't make enough money to be able to do
the things to their properties to, let us say, a lead
abatement. They are literally living paycheck to paycheck.
And when I talk to our elected officials, they seemingly don't
understand that this is truly -- these are truly distressed
communities in every sense of the word.
So I am here today to bring this to your attention.
I am sure you have run across it before, you know, the
communities where the person, the household, is two cents more
than what allows them to get any kind of assistance. And I
really do think that at this stage of the game, with so many
people trying so hard just to get a leg up, it would be really
great if you guys could help them out. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. I am sorry -- Chuck?
MR. BARLOW: Thank you. Just -- when I listen to
you talking about the Superfund issue, they may have heard
industry people say that to them. I mean, the people at the
state or the people -- because sometimes if there is an
industry that is involved with a site, sometimes the industry
would rather -- "Look, just let me go clean it up and don't
put it on Superfund."
You know, I completely understand what you are
saying, that it does not, you know, seem to have relevance in
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a situation like you are talking about when what you want is
the site cleaned up.
But I just thought that it might be interesting to
you to know that that might be where they have heard that
before, and they are sort of twisting it around, you know, and
saying it, you know. So, I don't know, but I agree with you.
Then -- but the other -- the question I had for you:
When you mentioned that you are -- your group was the
environmental justice group on Staten Island, how did you get
there? Or, I guess what I am wondering is if there are other
groups that you just -- you cooperate and there are other
community groups, and the groups have decided that your group
will be the spokesperson more or less? Or are you just the
only people who are working on those issues 	
MS. THURMAN: We are the only ones who are working
on the issue.
MR. BARLOW: Got you. Thank you.
MS. THURMAN: In terms of industry conversation, the
only industry that I can think of that they would have talked
to would be the real estate industry and the developers and
the contractors, because one of the things that was said was,
is, "Aren't you afraid of your property values going down?"
And it made me laugh, I mean, because on Staten Island the
houses that are away from the waterfront can sell anywhere
from $500,000 to close to $1,000,0000, depending on where they
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are. And if you are along the waterfront, depending on how
well you have maintained your house, you can get anywhere --
and this may sound like a lot of money to people who don't
live in New York -- but in New York it is like $125,000 for a
house and maybe up to, if it is a 2-family house, $400,000.
It is amazing when you give off these numbers
because I am originally from Ohio and so I know what it sounds
like, but in New York, that is nothing. I mean, that is
nothing when you are thinking about the size of the house and
you are thinking about the yard space that you have with these
properties.
The only thing I could think of when that person
said that to me was for the people who live in these
communities -- like I said, we don't really care what you call
it -- but if you are looking to gentrify that community, then,
yes, it would be a problem in trying to move the people out
and get the people in that you want.
MR. BARLOW: And just to be clear, I wasn't
really -- I agree with everything you said, but I wasn't
really talking about that particular site.
I was just thinking that the people who responded to
you in that way may have had other cases where industry was
involved and they said, you know, don't put it on Superfund,
just let me clean it up.
MS. THURMAN: Yes, I understand.
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MR. BARLOW: You know, or something like that,
so 	 I agree.
MS. THURMAN: Well, the Mayor was kind of saying it,
too, but, you know --
MS. YEAMPIERRE: You know, Beryl, you know
gentrification has become a major environmental justice issue
that all of us -- excesses of being used by developers as a
way of displacing people after we have cleaned up properties
and transformed our landscapes, and so it is not surprising
that that language would be used in an effort to have another
agenda. Yes, Shankar?
DR. PRASAD: Thank you very much for the testimony.
You bring an important part that brings to the question of
what we can do.
Right now, OECA and Office of Environmental Justice
have said that they have to identify the communities of
concern. And there are efforts now going on in different
parts of the country and the state.
That stigma that you are talking about of redlining
is now being -- almost some people call it as "greenlining,"
because that is where the resources had to go. That is where
we need better jobs. That is where we need to take some
action. That is where, if we care about environmental
justice, that is where the action has to be.
MS. THURMAN: Right.
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DR. PRASAD: So it is nice to see that ten years'
back, there were all certainly this issue about you want the
market that is zoned or not, but I am glad that many people
like yourself and many other groups across the country have
now thought about that and now come to the table saying that
it doesn't matter what you call it, whether you want to call
it as some people -- some of their investigators, have called
it as "EJ Action Zone." EJAZ -- it is a nice sounding
acronym.
So it is nice to see that it is an important step
and to the 	 of the OEJ, also taking in that direction and
saying that like that slide that Charles presented earlier
today about talking about that is where the resources will be
put in and that is where the actions will be. Thank you.
MS. THURMAN: I hope that we actually do get those
resources.
DR. PRASAD: Yes. That is true.
MS. THURMAN: I hope they do trickle down to that,
to our communities.
DR. PRASAD: Yes, that is important and it is
very -- but at the same time, I think one of the suggestions
for the OEJ is that they have to consider the legal
implications of that and whether there are any legal barriers
to go in that direction and if so, how do we overcome that
kind of a barrier as well?
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MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Hilton?
MR. KELLEY: Thank you. Yes, Hilton Kelley with the
Community In-power and Development Association. How are you
doing?
MS. THURMAN: Good, thank you.
MR. KELLEY: I am just curious to know: Who asked
the question about the property value, aren't you concerned
with the stigma that might be placed on your community?
MS. THURMAN: Department of Health, New York State
Department of Health. I was speaking with one of their
representatives.
MR. KELLEY: And that is your state regulatory
agency?
MS. THURMAN: Well, they are one of them, yes.
MR. KELLEY: Okay. Now, does the city -- does the
local city government, like your mayor, your city council
people, play a role in trying to get this area cleaned up?
Have you approached them?
MS. THURMAN: Yes. And, first of all, we have to
get them to recognize that Staten Island does have communities
of color. That has not been something that they have talked
about with -- let me rephrase that. They know we are there,
okay? But they have never identified us as environmental
justice communities. And I can tell you they know that we are
there because whenever they are looking for funding, they can
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pull out all the statistics that they need in order to get the
funding. We don't always see all the money for the funding,
but we know that they use these statistics.
MR. KELLEY: What I would recommend to you, using
the Freedom of Information Act, to acquire those papers so
that you can see exactly how that community is being used and
then take that information and use it to your advantage. But
under the Freedom of Information Act, you have a right to see
exactly what the statistics are from those reports when they
use your community as an underserved community to get Federal
dollars.
MS. THURMAN: We have done that. We actually did
that in order to get a grant with the Department of
Environmental Conservation.
MR. KELLEY: Okay.
MS. THURMAN: It was medical reports that they had
done involving the environmental justice communities along the
waterfront.
MR. KELLEY: And so it did work?
MS. THURMAN: Oh, yes.
MR. KELLEY: Okay.
MS. THURMAN: For that particular use. But as --
when you are -- when I was talking with our Congressman's
representative and I was explaining to him that, you know, we
need to have I would say more advocacy on their part, I was
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told that Staten Island's North Shore doesn't have the same
number of issues as, let us say, the Bronx or Brooklyn does,
so therefore, you know, we are not on the same scale.
I was kind of taken aback by that because it
shouldn't matter, you know, whether or not you have as many
environmental justice issues if you have them. But that is
the kind of conversations that we are having. So every time I
speak with any of our elected officials, I have to convince
them of something that they technically already know.
MR. KELLEY: Well, so what you are seeking to do now
is to get more funding to help clean up your area, or to get
it identified as a --
MS. THURMAN: Distressed area.
MR. KELLEY: -- distressed area?
MS. THURMAN: Yes. I would like to have the North
Shore identified -- the North Shore from St. George, from the
ending of St. George all the way down to Arlington, which is
5.2 miles of waterfront, I would like to have that identified
as a distressed area so that if -- so the funding that is
available, and there will have to be like a slight change in
the wording to allow these communities to receive various
grants and funds that are available and there would have to be
a push basically at the Federal level to make sure that the
municipalities access some of this funding to use for these
communities because right now there is no desire, there is no
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push to do anything for these communities, and if it had not
been for our organization fighting the way we have fought,
tooth and nail, the EPA probably would not have -- would not
be there to work on the Superfund site that it is working on.
I mean, there was a great deal of agitation that we had to do
just to get to that point, because it wasn't like we had
anyone who was really being very supportive.
I think that in some instances, the support -- I
wouldn't even say we actually got support, because when our
Congressman finally did start talking about this, it was -- I
mean, like by that time, the situation had been known for I
would say two years, two or three years, with the Sedutto ice
cream factory site. It was an ice cream factory site and
before that, it was two lead companies, National Lead
Industries and John J. Jewett and Sons White Lead Company.
We published a book in 2008 and gave it to everybody
that we could think of. And then at that point, that is when
our Congressman stepped up and started sending out letters and
saying, you know, to the EPA, can you look at this?
MR. KELLEY: Well, I would definitely say that you
have done your homework and also you are very fortunate to
have gotten your Congressman involved. Many times, they won't
even touch an issue and that is -- you know, in my community,
we never could get Nick Lampson at that particular time even
involved. But yet I commend you on that.
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I would just like to tell you to keep pushing, don't
give up. Get more of your community members involved with
your fight, and just don't stop.
MS. THURMAN: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Beryl, I want to add something
because I know that you come from Staten Island on that ferry
in all kinds of weather, coming to Manhattan for meetings.
You know, several years ago when the New York Power
Authority was fast-tracking power plants into our communities
and we saw that they were placing some in Staten Island, we
all looked at each other and said, "There must be some people
of color living there." We just knew. And you have, on your
own, really raised the level of consciousness and awareness
about the issues that impact the people of color in Staten
Island. For a long time, we didn't know that our people were
out there because, like who went to Staten Island?
MS. THURMAN: Right, I know.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: But you really have, and you have
been doing it in an under-resourced way, and I want to commend
you for your hard work because you have done an amazing job.
Thank you.
MS. THURMAN: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: So, Lang and Bill, all right.
MR. MARSH: Okay, thanks. Lang Marsh, National
Policy Consensus Center. And it was a pleasure meeting you
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earlier, Beryl.
MS. THURMAN: Nice meeting you.
MR. MARSH: I applaud your efforts here.
It sounds to me like you obviously are getting some
political resistance to the notion of having this area
considered for distressed area status of some kind or other.
So I guess my question is, are there any other reasons you can
think of why there has been that resistance, particularly at
the local level? And, secondly, whether there are any tools
that would be helpful to you in making that case?
For example, tomorrow we are -- I hope you are here
for that discussion. We will be talking about the EJC tool,
and I don't know whether it would be helpful in your case or
not, but it would be interesting to get your perspective on
that. And are there any other kinds of things that you think
NEJAC could recommend as a tool that would provide you the --
either the information or the arguments to make to the local
officials that would be -- you know, push them over the --
MS. THURMAN: The edge?
MR. MARSH: -- the hill. Well, maybe not over the
edge, but --
(Laughter)
MS. THURMAN: It is a matter of speaking!
MR. MARSH: -- over the kind of the mental block or
whatever it is, or the political block, that makes it hard for
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them to reach the right conclusion?
MS. THURMAN: I think in private conversations they
all know it. They just don't want to publicly say it, because
I really do feel that once they feel that if they say it out
loud and that the public hears it that -- and it is not like
everyone doesn't know what is -- you know, what these
communities are, but there was never a title for it before
now, you know? There was -- we didn't know that the
situations that we were living under were environmental
justice, or injustice, situations. And so just having that
name now, you know, hit them in the face. It is just more
than they can bear.
I -- for the first time, I went to the State of the
Borough Address, and our Borough President skipped over that
entire section of the North Shore. And the only thing he
would mention was 2 businesses and how they were going to
bring 200 jobs to the community and they were going to be
union jobs to which none of our young people are skilled or
union to even, you know, be eligible for those jobs.
That is how they have been dealing with it. And all
the letters that we have written, the EJ booklet that we sent
out, we never got a response from them directly. But they
used our information to do a study. But they never
acknowledged receiving it.
So, it is just like they -- if they continue to
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ignore it, if they continue not to give credence to it, then
it is not really real. And they have lived with this -- most
of them have lived on Staten Island all their lives, and so
they have seen this every single day, but they just don't want
to own it. And I don't know what you could do to make them
own up to it. I just don't know. I mean, it is almost like
the 12 Steps of alcoholism, you know? You have to acknowledge
it first. And they just don't want to acknowledge it.
MR. HARPER: Well, Beryl, I feel your pain. My
mother grew up on Staten Island and I used to hang out in Port
Richmond all the time. I spent all my summers there. And,
you know, back in the x50s and x60s, I think, the interesting
thing was it was a very mixed neighborhood. And I think as
everybody moved out and the people of color stayed there, you
know, it was like the problem has gone away, but it really
didn't go away.
So one of my questions is, how long have you known
that there has been a problem? Because I know even when I was
young and playing over in the fields and there were a lot of
factories and stuff, there was always a lot of, you know, bad
things that you would find. But how long has it been since
you guys have really been able to document the fact that there
are lead issues or other environmental issues?
MS. THURMAN: When I first purchased my home in Port
Richmond in 1997 and at that particular point in time, I was
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Vice President of the Port Richmond Civic Association and then
I became President of the Port Richmond Civic Association.
And it was a matter of you see something, but you can't quite
put your finger on what the problem is.
I would go to the community board, went to meetings
and I would talk to them about the issues of the community and
they would never do anything. And they just -- they kept
adding more businesses, clustering more businesses into
communities that were polluting businesses.
Regardless of what I would say to them, they just
kept doing it. They kept giving the stamp of approval so that
the BSA would -- you know, would go ahead and give someone
their variance to put this auto body shop with 13 other auto
body shops in, you know, half a block walking distance of each
other, cramming all the social services that had to deal with
substance abuse and all these other homelessness situations
into the community.
Finally it was -- it got to the point where I was
just like, okay, this is not -- just talking to them is not
going to be enough. I have to actually go and do some history
and do some researching.
So what we did was -- is in 2005 through -- in 2006
we got a grant with DEC, and the grant with DEC allowed me to
do the research to locate 21 sites where I went through and
did the history of their past uses, and then said, "These
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sites have the possibility of having these contaminants on
there." And that was in 2006. In 2008, we completed the
booklet and got it published and sent it out. And then at
that point, they really did have to say, "Okay, we have a
problem here." But they would never publicly say, "We have a
problem."
SIBUT it was able to stop them long enough so that
at this point we can say to them, "You can't put anything else
in this neighborhood that is like that. You just can't. You
are going to kill us." And they still did it. They put in an
Access-a-Ride depot, bus depot. We had two depots already,
and they put in an Access-a-Ride bus depot, you know? But it
didn't fall under SICRA*. It was 	
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you.
MS. THURMAN: You are welcome.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: And so, Michael Jacoby?
Thank you.
Comments
by Michael Jacoby
MR. JACOBY: My name is Michael Jacoby. If I talk
too fast or speak too loud, please tell me. This is the first
time I had to give a public presentation, or a presentation
sitting down. This time, it is in front of a podium, or being
recorded worldwide.
I am addressing an issue that is old school for many
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in here. You might have heard my name throughout the years.
What I am about to tell you Capitol Hill also knows about, so
does the White House. I have supplied them with information
through the past Administration and this Administration to
bring about a point that I discovered that with your wisdom,
you might be able to see the logic that I am going to be
pointing out, and I may be able to help you in solving some of
your problems.
First of all, I would like to go on record saying
that I did stop Lisa Jackson, Administrator Jackson, in the
hallway and literally shook her hand and thank her for signing
the TRI Burden Reduction Rule. Now, for many in here who are
not familiar with the TRI Burden Reduction Rule, that is the
key to solving the particular issue that I am bringing to your
attention.
First of all, I would like to put something in
perspective. How many people in here own a home?
(Show of hands)
MR. JACOBY: The majority -- okay? You had to do
real estate disclosure. The real estate agent had to take a
look at the area and tell you if there was hazardous
materials. Keep that perspective there.
How many people have children that may have asthma,
breathing problems, or special needs? How many people also
ever used the EPA database to search for information? Now I
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would like a show of hands.
(Show of hands)
MR. JACOBY: Did you ever use EnviroMapper? I did.
When I looked at EnviroMapper, I found facilities that were 10
to 20 miles off location. I found facilities on the other
side of town. I found facilities -- a college moved partway
across the state.
I asked Congress in one of my presentations that I
gave them on CD because they won't let me sit down to talk to
them like I am doing tonight -- I said, "Explain this, where
was your oversight?" Which comes from the Energy and Commerce
Commission.
I have expertise in modical levels. I am addressing
this at a different level that is even higher and above the
National Environmental Justice Society here, or Council. And,
believe it or not, it comes back to basics.
As an agency or advisory council, you cannot get the
community support unless we can get the original database
cleaned up and you can supply exact, accurate information to
the public. The public will not have any faith in what the
EPA is saying.
I am proposing -- it is in a detailed presentation,
a lot of bloviating, but it has details in there with a
process used to show you quick results in how to eliminate the
problem. This not only involves cluster study problems, which
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was brought out by others.
One of the issues that was brought to my attention
by others who reviewed my presentations already -- they said,
"Please don't let this get turned into a political issue.
This is a public health, safety, environmental issue." This
goes to a database, and what is missing from this whole
equation is a basic simple element.
I have not been able to find anybody in authority --
I am questioning the Department of Justice and I am supposed
to make contact with your Investigator General -- where is the
Federal statute, policy or directive, anything, that says that
the EPA is verifying their information before it is released
to the public by first responders or other agencies, which
would be Department of Health? If you know that system, you
know how it is used. Where is that verification in policy?
And if you cannot find it, who has responsibility at
the EPA level of verifying that the data is correct before it
is broadcast to the public?
I give these presentations, I give training for
first responders -- yes, teaching them how to protect
themselves, because when you look at the data and the sites
show up in the wrong town, they have a problem if they ever
got to -- if they have to call for out-of-area assistance,
because in my world, when I grew up, we had Selectric
typewriters. Today, everybody has a laptop. First thing you
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do is go to your facility and registry information. If that
site is in your neighboring town and those first responders
are waiting for back-up response and they see the lights way
over on the horizon, there is a wake-up call, and it happens
within seconds.
I believe I can set up a program, show you results,
before you can draw another meeting together.
I am out of time. I am open to comment. I would
like you to ask as many questions as possible.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Any -- Omega?
MR. WILSON: I appreciate your comments, very much
so. This is something, as a community-based organization, we
have raised questions about for several years, before I became
a member of NEJAC, about ground truthing doesn't parallel
database.
MR. JACOBY: Yes.
MR. WILSON: Part of the work that I have done with
the Goods Movement work group that will be presented tomorrow
has raised serious questions with a lot of rough edges from
people who thought I was offending them about databases that
underestimate death and suffering -- DOODs -- and how we
eliminate those DOODs.
A lot of those DOODs are based on data that is not
in the databases. Does your information address those ground
truthing things that the old folks, the folks who live in the
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community, know about but aren't in anybody's database? Does
your approach intend to address the data that is not
classified as data as yet?
MR. JACOBY: Sir, what you are about ready to learn
in the next few minutes may surprise you. Not only have I
taken this issue on at the national level, I am also
addressing the deficiency that I saw at the international
level.
In my state, I have given comment, and we have
instituted a program, what you are exactly talking about. It
is called the ICRIM program, how to take those of special
needs, handicaps, those that don't know about a certain
situation, how to evacuate them in times of crisis.
Yes, it does expand out. But before you do
anything, before you even think of what I -- or a solution to
a problem that I am just asking you for advice if you do know
of one, if not, I can show you one.
The only person that can verify whether a site is
accurate and correct is the municipality who has the plot plan
through tax surveys, who did the inspections, and is under
code by labor and industry. They are the only one qualified
to know whether the geographical locational information, being
the latitude and longitude coordinates, whether they are
exact. You can't have a computer operator sitting 3,000 miles
away looking at a picture of a facility, not realizing that
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that facility is in the wrong location. And that is what is
happening. It is a nice picture, but it doesn't tell you the
facts.
MR. WILSON: Okay, I get what you are saying --
MR. JACOBY: Great.
MR. WILSON: -- but I am raising another question.
MR. JACOBY: Okay.
MR. WILSON: I am talking about the mills, the
underground storage tanks, all the other environmental hazards
that even the city, the county doesn't admit exist in low-
income minority communities. I am talking about the sites
that aren't in a database, and local governments or state
governments do not want to admit to.
MR. JACOBY: Sir, I have the knowledge and
background to build a database. Is that necessary? I think
it is, because what you have, you have a database with
environmental information. Your new appointee, Stephen Owens,
brought up a question which is at my heart. I hold in my
pocket a license, chemical license, going back to the 1980s
when we discussed this on organic phosphates, which is
pesticides. How many people in this room know whether or not
their state has a hypersensitivity registry?
(Show of hand -- John)
MR. JACOBY: That goes back to bulk storage. That
goes back to chemicals that may be stored underground. That
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goes back to major warehousing, water pollutions.
Yes, I believe a database can be broad scope. But
the problem is, right now the Department of Agriculture is
exempt from any of the EPA data. How many people in this room
knew that?
(Show of hand -- John)
MR. JACOBY: Thank you, John. That is a big
problem. When you find a major facility sitting next to a
school or a rest home that I know what the vulnerability zone
is -- it is not rocket science to know how to do CIPRA or any
type of assessment. Even a seventh grade student who is
already able to solve a math problem that Congress, or Capitol
Hill, can't solve, what type of problem you have.
Yes, I believe we should expand from the
environmental justice agriculture, especially the in the bulk
storage of closed containers, which everybody knows --
Homeland Security has paid attention. They are doing what is
called CFATs, which is the inspections. But under the CFATs
Federal regulations, Section 505 -- I don't have it right in
front of me, it is in my briefcase -- I even questioned
Secretary Chertoff's staff, came back from Mr. Steffan before
he left the administrative position.
There is a section in there where they can't even
question or advise a CFATs facility of what security device to
implement. Well, think about that. We are spending millions
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of dollars for Homeland Security to go around and look at
security -- whether you have the gates locked and
everything -- but they can't even tell him to put on a darn
alarm or can't even, and believe it or not, check the reading.
It is supposed to be that secret, that it is underneath the
carpet, that the local community will not even know it is
going on.
They are going to be setting up some DOH sites --
that is the last reading I heard -- that according to the
agreement with CFATs, they are not even going to let the local
municipality know.
Now, I have a problem with that because if we are
trying to bring community awareness, get it safe so you can
sell your programs of having environmental justice and cap and
trade will work once we get the site finally established, you
have got to make sure the data is correct, you have got to
make sure everybody is working from the same page.
But if the Department of Health doesn't share their
information, which is hypersensitivity lists, they don't share
their information with, right now, EPA or labor and industry
to make sure the sites are correct, and even Homeland Security
does their inspections but they are not going to tell you when
they are coming to town or are even going to tell you what
happens. That is falling under another domain. That is going
to fall under -- how many Emergency Preparedness personnel do
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we have here? Anybody with that -- hello?
(Show of hand -- John)
MR. JACOBY: I don't have to go any further. John
knows.
The system is broken into segments, that one hand --
the right hand isn't telling the other. I would love to build
you a database running all those equations.
I even had a major supplier for our part of the
state say, "Mikey, we are going out to do underground storage
tanks." I said, "Do you want me involved to come up with the
lats and longs to work with you?" "Well, can you build a
database?"
Well, I can -- but is it necessary at this point?
If we can't get the Federal EPA database to cull out
the correct location of what the information they are
broadcasting or have available to the public, we don't have to
go any further. You can't sell a program without having your
baseline data verified. And that is what I am asking the
Environmental Justice Council to take a look at. If you can
find it, this squeaky wheel will be quiet. But if not, I will
show you how to get results because I am a mover and shaker.
I hate politics, but I can show you how to get it.
Part of my explanation is in a detailed PowerPoint
presentation that some of your members have that gets into
some bloviating but it does tell you the baseline information
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of how to solve your problem and get your programs out there
to the public, get public recognition so that your
environmental programs can be sold as a useful tool for the
community to expand environmental concerns.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you.
MR. JACOBY: Did I talk too much again? John?
MR. RIDGWAY: So, briefly —
MR. JACOBY: Yes.
MR. RIDGWAY: -- clarifying here, you are talking
about the EPA database?
MR. JACOBY: Yes.
MR. RIDGWAY: And as I read your testimony that you
submitted early, I believe you are discussing a number of
different, distinct databases. Is that correct?
MR. JACOBY: That is correct. TRI reporting. You
also have a multi-system and --
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, you answered my question.
MR. JACOBY: Yes — yes.
MR. RIDGWAY: I just want to be sure everybody
understands there is not just one database here. We are
talking about multiple databases.
MR. JACOBY: Correct.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thanks.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay. All right — oh, Chris.
MR. HOLMES: So does your concern extend to the
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major permit databases, namely the Title V operating permits?
MR. JACOBY: The EHSs, which is — the Title Vs —
one thing I discovered while I did my approach, when you speak
in EPA terminology, nobody in Capitol Hill or nobody at the
local level --
MR. HOLMES: Right.
MR. JACOBY: -- understands that. You use the
terminology SARA Title II or Title III, everybody knows. So
if you classed our -- just restructuring the way you
approached the problem and start using terminology that is
known, SARA, or anybody that had the CFATs classification,
which is now Federal law, you will solve half of your
problems.
MR. HOLMES: To go back again, I mean --
MR. JACOBY: Yes —
MR. HOLMES: -- I am talking about the operating
permit. So Air Operating Permit. I am just curious. Do you
find that data to be faulty or weak or --
MR. JACOBY: I primarily focused in on one area --
locational, geographical location, lats and longs. That is
the data. I have even proved it to some personnel here. We
went down, looked at a new website. Before I -- from the time
I drove here last night till today, the database has changed.
But, the basic premise -- we checked the lats and longs that
were reported from one site, it put me in Asia, in China.
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Now, wait a minute!
How many people know how to use the VZIS database?
It is part of your EPA OEM. It is part of the training I do
for the first responders. Please look at it. If the same
baseline database which is called Facility Registry
Information is being shared in other databases, it is corrupt.
You can't trust it.
For New York, I see heads bobbin'. I love it. If
you go down the street and you identify the wrong facility as
you are going down the street as being a site with hazardous
substances, what is it going to do for that poor individual
that says, "Hey, somebody -- the EPA just classified my
facility here as a hazardous substance site. I can't get --
my insurance went up, I can't do this, I can't do that."
Wait a minute! It is a simple problem. Nobody
verified the data. And why? It is like getting a driver's
license. If you -- if there is no requirement on that
driver's license to say, "Hey, do you wear glasses?" Until
you get that requirement, nobody is going to start double-
checking this data. But on like a driver's license, yes, you
do have to tell them, "Yes. You have
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Mr. Jacoby, thank you.
MR. JACOBY: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: It is just out of -- in interests
of time and to be fair to the other commentators, I --
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MR. JACOBY: Understood.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: -- will be happy to read the
comments that you submitted. And thank you, Beryl.
So now we are going to move on to -- because we have
some written comments that were submitted, and as I mentioned
earlier, we are going to be reading those summaries. So,
John, if you could --
Comments
by Amber Lambert
[Read by John Ridgway]
MR. RIDGWAY: This comment comes from Amber Lambert
with the Louisiana Bucket Brigade.
"On Tuesday, July 7, the Dow Chemical Plant released
chemicals into the air of St. Charles Parish, sending 7 people
to the hospital to be treated for respiratory issues and other
illnesses. Later that evening, the Louisiana Department of
Environmental Quality issued a statement assuring the
community that the air was clean and should not have caused
any poor health effects. They said, quote, Vust because you
smell it, doesn't mean it is a threat to your health.'
Unquote.
(Laughter)
MR. RIDGWAY: "A similar problem occurred recently
at Murphy Oil, where surrounding community members claimed
that they could stay outside long enough to decorate" -- I
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think they meant to say they could NOT stay outside long
enough to decorate their homes for Christmas because of the
odor.
"It is time for industries to make precautionary
principles so that the public's health is not in jeopardy."
And then a question at the end: "Who is responsible
for protecting people's health? If it is Department of
Environmental Quality, DHH doesn't."
That is it.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. The public commentator
-- commenter is Nathalie Walker, and she is Co-Director and
attorney for Advocates for Environmental Human Rights, and the
topic is "Cumulative Effects of Industrial Pollution for
Multiple Facilities in Mossville, Louisiana."
Comments
by Nathalie Walker
[Read by Elizabeth Yeampierre]
MS. YEAMPIERRE: "The United States has enacted an
enormous body of environmental laws and has made significant
contributions to the development of international human rights
law. However, it has failed to incorporate human rights into
its system of environmental protection. It is blind to the
devastating impacts suffered by communities, in particular
communities of color, where regulated industry dump massive
quantities of toxic pollution.
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"Reforming the system is critical for communities
who are being destroyed by toxic industrial pollution in
violation of fundamental human rights. Mossville, Louisiana,
is a case in point.
"Mossville is surrounded by 14 industrial facilities
that include oil refineries, vinyl manufacturers, and a coal
fire power plant within 1/2 mile of residents. 9 of these
facilities admit to spewing over 2 million pounds of toxic
chemicals into the air each year.
"The U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease
Registry reported in 1999 that Mossville residents have 3
times more dioxin in their bodies than the general U.S.
population. It is also in their house, dust, attic, yard
crops and fish.
"It is our hope that the National Environmental
Justice Advisory Council can begin to play a role in
addressing this matter."
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay. We are going to call up
Dothula Baron-Hall and Howard Wang, Dr. Howard Wang.
Welcome, Ms. Baron-Hall. Okay.
Comments
by Dothula Baron-Hall
MS. BARON-HALL: My name is Dothula Baron-Hall and I
am with the Rural Empowerment Association for Community Help
(REACH) in Warsaw, North Carolina. We are located in eastern
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North Carolina. We are about one hour from the Atlantic
Ocean.
Our concern is industrial animal operations. Duplin
County is a small county, only about 52,000 people, but there
are over 2 million hogs and 1,000,000 turkeys. And so that
creates an expansive problem for the people in -- that live in
this community, and that is not just limited to that 1 county.
That county has the largest number of hogs, but there are
other surrounding counties that are in dire shape as well.
One of the things I want to focus on, though, is
EPA's response to the problem -- or maybe I should say, what
has been historically perceived as EPA's relationship with the
industry. And that is not just EPA. That is the North
Carolina Department of Environmental Health and Natural
Resources as well.
One of the things I want to begin with saying is I
have been so impressed today with all that I have heard from
you and from Richard Moore and with other people who have
spoken and just encouraged. It is so encouraging to know
that, you know, people who can do something about the problem
are willing to help, because we have not seen very much of
that in North Carolina or in the counties that we are involved
in.
But the concern is about, has been about, EPA's
support, and historically, too, and, you know, we all know
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this -- you know, I have heard so many jokes about EPA, and
people have said, "Oh, it is the Corporate Protection Agency.
It is the agency that really protects --" and that is what we
have seen a lot of.
So we -- our agency has collaborative problem
solving cooperative agreement, and so we have worked really
hard to work on the problem with our stakeholders, including
Smithfield Foods, which locally is Murphy-Brown, and Murphy-
Brown was the local corporation that ran that industry until
Smithfield bought them out.
So it has been a really big issue because we haven't
really gotten help from the industry and the industry has
really perceived EPA as their ally, and it is really insulting
to the people in the community where people are suffering on a
daily basis from the odors, from the effects from the air and
the water. And this small, rural, poor community, actually,
people have just the disproportionate amount of illnesses.
We worked with, and are working with, researchers
who are from several different universities who are really
working hard to try to find out, okay, what exactly is causing
the problem and what can be done about it? And they, too, I
believe, sometimes feel frustrated because they don't feel
like they have support from those people who could make a
difference.
So, all -- what I am basically asking is that EPA
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show that they have a legitimate, sincere concern for the
problem. We want to make sure that people who are working for
EPA also are sensitive and understanding and supportive of the
problems and of the issues.
We have -- as I said before, we have had the
industry go to EPA representatives and complain about us as
though we are the perpetrators of the problem! And we have
had folks who actually work with EPA look at us and say,
"Okay, what are you all doing? What are you doing to really
harm these industries?" And it is an insult because the
people in the communities are -- they basically are perceived
as being powerless. We know that is not true, and so we are
really working hard to help the community to see that, you
know, we are very powerful, that we do have a voice, and we
are just asking you to support us in that role.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you very much. Any comments
or questions? Hilton?
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. Hilton Kelley with the
Community In-power and Development Association. How are you
doing?
Have you brought forth any information to your local
officials concerning this problem and have you tried to work
with your local officials? I always like to start there.
MS. BARON-HALL: Oh, yes. We have made our
presentations to our County Commissioners. We are in a
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community like I am sure many communities you are aware of
where the industry brings in a lot of money to the community
and they are very powerful in the community. And as I said
before, we are a poor community of people. When they have
spoken up in the past, they have been smacked down,
intimidated, threatened.
So now that we have a cohesive force, we have
done -- we have been to the county, we have been to the state,
and we continue to do that. We are not going to stop doing
that. But so far, we have not gotten through.
There are a few people we talked to, but they won't
speak up in public, your local level, you know, elected
officials, because they are concerned about their businesses
as well. And they tell us, they say, "Just keep talking, keep
it out in the forefront." And we do.
But an interesting point is, on the state level, we
have two, our state senator and our state representative, both
are owners of, or contract growers at least, with Smithfield.
And so they own -- they own farms.
MR. KELLEY: Has anybody within your organization
brought forth any solution to the problem that you all are
having to deal with? Does anybody have a definitive answer as
to what could be done possibly within your group or within
your local or state government?
MS. BARON-HALL: Well, one of the things that we are
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doing -- well, there was a ban on -- okay, I am not going to
go into detail about some of the ramifications because I
believe Damon* Hall is going to talk a little bit more about
that.
But, you know, there was a ban that was passed or --
yes, it was supposedly passed, to ban lagoons and sprayfields,
and, you know, lagoons are, you know, these ponds that hold
hog waste, you know, the liquid and the solid. And so that
hog waste is sprayed out into fields and when it is supposed
to be used as fertilizer. And -- but it is sprayed on the
fields, and so hydrogen sulfide is emitted from the waste, and
that has been proven that it can be fatal, and we know some
cases in our community where it has been fatal.
So, you know, that ban didn't really work because
there were a lot of -- it was politics as usual, and people,
you know, legislators continue to bring that up. And so we
really would like to see the lagoons and the sprayfields
banned. We would like a date for them to be done away with.
There is technology that -- I mean, we don't want to put
people out of business, we don't want to put people out of
work, but there is technology that would work. It is
expensive, but we believe Smithfield can afford it.
MR. KELLEY: Now, has hydrogen sulfide -- I mean,
the odors, of course, that are being emitted by this waste and
I am sure body parts, is that like the biggest problem, is the
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odors, the stench coming from these areas?
MS. BARON-HALL: That is a huge problem. There is
also contamination of the water, the groundwater and the well
water. So people have had to -- they have been told not to
use their wells. You know, they have shallow wells, they have
been told not to use them. And so that costs, and we are
talking about people who are relatively poor who are living
off of a check, you know, that they get from the Federal
government from month to month. It costs a lot to convert to
city water or municipal water. So that just presents more and
more problems. Not the odor, but also the water.
The water -- you know, if you think about it, water
and air flow. So we are an hour from the ocean, so it is
flowing into the streams, the streams are flowing into the
rivers, the rivers are flowing into the oceans. And we have
even talked to researchers who said they found some -- they
had some findings that showed that water in New England was
contaminated from the waste, the hog waste, in North Carolina,
that was coming out of North Carolina, because -- so it is an
expansive problem, doesn't just affect us.
MR. KELLEY: All right, thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Ma'am, you are a community
scientist. You are an example of how people in our
communities know everything they need to know about what is
affecting them.
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I think -- Wynecta, next?
MS. FISHER: Wynecta Fisher, City of New Orleans,
and actually you answered one question about the water. I was
wondering, was it contaminated?
I am a little -- it is a -- you are struggling with
something I think that a lot of people struggle with because
that company is probably operating within the law of the
state. And that is a challenge, because if the state law says
that it is okay to operate and they are paying their taxes,
then the general attitude has been to deal with it, and so
then you will kill your state legislator. But in this case,
you are saying that they are a part of the problem.
I would say that if you can find other people in
your surrounding community to maybe find someone who can
advocate on your behalf to change that state legislation and
also get some zoning laws, sometimes that can help. But the
zoning laws are harder to push through because it is generally
a board of commissioners which tend to be representatives from
some of the same facilities.
So, good luck -- but I was really concerned about
your water and you are saying that it is contaminated.
MS. BARON-HALL: Yes. And we do continue to
approach our state legislators and working with other -- like
the RiverKeepers and the Water Keepers, and other
environmental health groups, the North Carolina Environmental
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Justice Network.
So we all are constantly working together,
cooperating, to try to make a difference. And that won't
stop. It hasn't been very effective so far, though.
MS. FISHER: And there are some -- and someone from
EPA can probably help you better than I can, but there are
some EPA grants to deal with watershed issues, because I know
that we have some in the state of Louisiana.
MS. BARON-HALL: Yes, great.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Sue?
MS. BRIGGUM: I wonder if there might be an
opportunity here because you have mentioned Smithfield a
number of times and I don't see her here, but there is someone
from Smithfield who has come to a number of the NEJACs. She
works on sustainability.
I wonder if there might be an opportunity for
something like a work group on this issue, some -- you know,
it is a challenging issue because there is probably no more
potent political group than farmers. For good reason, you
know -- they give us all of our food!
On the other hand, there might be an opportunity if
you and she were sitting together, and some other experts, to
come up with best practices that might kind of cut through all
this stuff that you are talking about in terms of
jurisdiction, but to come up with something practical, kind of
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like what we did with waste transfer stations where we came up
with best practice guidances that would avoid the creation of
H20 that could be exposed to the community, that would get it
out of the situation where it could contaminate groundwater.
It is something that I would suggest, you know, to
EPA. You think about the possibility that there might be a
way for a work group to really structure a conversation with
you and others that might come up with something that would
result in change in practices.
MS. BARON-HALL: Yes. That is exactly what we want
to do. And I will just say out of support for Smithfield, we
did just recently have a conversation with one of their
representatives about the watersheds and how we might begin to
collaborate a little bit more. Yes, up until now, the most
that they have done has been to provide a flytrap for one of
the people in the communities that -- who complained about
flies.
MS. HENNEKE: This is one of those things that I
have -- I am Jody Henneke with General Land Office in Texas,
and I spent a long time in Texas working for the Texas
Commission on Environmental Quality. And there is a
tremendous amount of work that has been done associated with
CAFOs.
You might want to talk with the Environmental
Justice folks from Region VI because the State of Oklahoma is
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-- in the panhandle of Oklahoma and the panhandle of Texas,
there are a lot of CAFOs, including hog operations. Texas has
a nuisance odor statute which goes a long ways to helping the
regulatory agency deal with some of the issues that you are
talking about. But there has been a lot of work done on best
management practices. The State of Iowa has done a lot of
work, Oklahoma and Texas have.
You happen to, in North Carolina, have a little bit
of an additional burden both geographically and with your
climate there, your high humidity, and North Carolina has had
issues in the past with tropical storms being hung over the
Atlantic coast and causing flooding issues there where a lot
of those hog operations are, and I am pretty familiar with
your issues and it is not easy at all.
I also grew up on a farm, so I am a little sensitive
to the farmer comment and prefer to talk of it more in the
corporate agriculture kind of terms because your basic -- what
I grew up thinking of as a farmer is not the size of operation
that has, you know, a quarter of a million hogs. It is a
very, very different industry when you are dealing with the
large hog operations, the poultry issues, the dairy issues,
and there on the East Coast you have a history of that
industry as well as the difficulties associated with your
weather and your soil characteristics.
And, Hilton, what happens a lot of times, what I
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have seen, is when you have those kinds of spills, you can
wind up with high nitrates in the groundwater, and many of
your local residents there have shallow wells and that -- it
is more than just an odor issue, and I am not making light of
the odor issues at all.
But I would suggest that you talk with some of your
counterparts especially in Texas and Oklahoma because they
have -- while they don't have -- they are a drier climate, but
they have a history of dealing with corporate agriculture.
I myself got to do a public meeting associated with
a hog genetics facility that went into the panhandle of Texas,
and it is not easy for any community. But there are water
issues, there are runoff issues, there are water source
issues, there are water quantity issues, there are odor
issues, and there is ultimately waste disposal issues.
So I would encourage you to talk with some of the
people from -- especially from Iowa and Texas and Oklahoma.
MS. BARON-HALL: Great. Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Chris?
MR. HOLMES: Here we go. I am Christian Holmes and
I think Jody's advice is tremendous, as is Sue's, both of them
having very good points.
What is interesting about your problem, you are in
the Neuse River Basin, I suspect?
MS. BARON-HALL: Neuse, yes.
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MR. HOLMES: Neuse, that is where you are.
MS. BARON-HALL: Yes.
MR. HOLMES: Sounded like it. So to your point --
you have a huge alliance because there are people that go all
the way down to the ocean, plus a number of the major
universities. I know Duke has been up in that area very
actively.
MS. BARON-HALL: Right.
MR. HOLMES: And I was curious about two things.
One, have you ever been kind of exposed to by the regulators
with any kind of booklet or guidance that basically lays out
all the different kind of instruments that you have to use --
and tools in negotiating with people like Smithfield, or
approaching them?
MS. BARON-HALL: When you say "tools," can you be
more specific?
MR. HOLMES: Well, you know, explaining to you, for
example, what are the various things that a company has to do
to be able to comply with laws? What are the various public
meetings they have to have, and under what circumstances?
Those sorts of things.
MS. BARON-HALL: No, that has never been explained
to me. Some of the other people may be aware.
MR. HOLMES: Yes. See, that has always been my pet
little peeve, is that there are all sorts of sources of
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information that you have access to, okay? It is a question
of how to share it with you and how you are educated.
There are things like the risk management program
rule which is little known but extremely effective under
certain circumstances to be able to get people's attention.
So I think that the people at EPA, both in Region IV
and at the state EPA, would be very helpful to you in putting
that together.
MS. BARON-HALL: Thank you.
MR. HOLMES: Just as a suggestion.
MS. BARON-HALL: We do have -- we are developing, I
should say --
MR. HOLMES: Yes —
MS. BARON-HALL: -- a pretty good relationship with
the State Environmental Office --
MR. HOLMES: I am sure you are, yes.
MS. BARON-HALL: -- and so, yes, I am sure they
would be glad to provide that with us.
MR. HOLMES: It tells a great story when you start
to lace the permits together. Thank you.
MS. BARON-HALL: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Omega?
MR. WILSON: I just want to ask a question. Maybe I
can hold mine. Is Mr. Hall going to -- is he going to be part
of the presentation or --
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MS. BARON-HALL: Devon Hall.
MS.	: Devon Hall is scheduled two people
from now.
MR. WILSON: Okay, all right. I can hold my
question for Mr. Hall, then.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Hilton?
MR. KELLEY: I just had a quick question. Excuse my
naivete when it comes to hog farms. I don't know a whole lot
about hog farms. I have never seen one. But I have heard a
lot about them in the work that I do with other groups that I
have worked with.
But my question is, from what I am understanding,
what I am hearing, there is an issue with the cesspools and
where a lot of the waste goes. I was just wondering, is there
any way, like a storage tank of some sort, to be used to
somewhat house a lot of this waste before the runoff starts to
happen and we can create a way to recover the hydrogen sulfide
and it could be burned off because it gives off -- it is a gas
that can be burned?
I think that would cut down on some of the costs,
because in Texas we have these huge, huge storage tanks for
oil refineries. I mean, these things dot our landscape for
miles, and I am pretty sure in a farm situation you have a lot
of land, and I am thinking that maybe two or three of these --
if many of you know what I am speaking of -- these tanks could
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be utilized. Maybe the waste could be put there, somehow
discarded but yet as the wastes start to go down, the gases
can be burned off and -- over time. Just for an idea.
MS. BARON-HALL: Yes, there has been research that
has been done to show that they could be. There are a lot of
more positive ways of handling the waste. And actually, Devon
is the same. He knows more about the scientific part of this
thing, so he can some more -- some of those questions more
accurately than I.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: John?
MR. RIDGWAY: Dothula, thank you very much for your
testimony here.
I have a couple quick comments as much for the
Council as for you, and I am not an expert on this, but it is
my understanding, and this can be a question to EPA, I think
this issue is confounded, it is -- by the fact that these
issues are around the Safe Drinking Water Act which to my
understanding EPA doesn't address as directly as perhaps a
Department of Health. It is -- there are multiple
institutions here and regulatory agencies that are involved,
if I understand it, and this gets to the issue of interagency
work by EPA and the Interagency Environmental Justice Advisory
Committee, and may be something that they can help look at
this around because I don't know that EPA has as much
oversight on this as some people might believe.
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The other just quick clarification here for people
in the audience who don't understand what CAFOs are, and this
is often referred to as that acronym for I think it is
Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations, just to be clear
everybody knows what that is about. Thank you.
MS. BARON-HALL: Thank you.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Hall.
Dr. Wang?
MR.	: Jody has 	
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I am sorry --
DR. WANG: Good evening.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: -- whose card? Jody, I didn't see
you.
again,
MS. HENNEKE: Excuse me. This is Jody Henneke
I was going to suggest before your comments are
over -- actually, John, EPA really does have a big stick in
this one, and it varies, on the state level, from state to
state whose regulatory authority it is housed in mostly. In
some states, it is within their Department of Agriculture.
With some states, it is within their environmental agency.
You also have food production involved, which has
gotten of late very big into the Homeland Security world.
So there is a tremendous variety of regulatory
authorities involved, but in North Carolina I believe it is
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principally within the environmental agency.
One of the things, Chris, that is most difficult
about this particular subject matter is it very much depends
on what the opportunity for the publics to participate in that
individual state. In some states, they use a standard permit,
or a general permit, for CAFOs until you get to really, really
big numbers. In some states, it is an individual site
specific permit.
So what I would encourage you to do is to find out
with your EPA region who issues the permit on the state level
or within the state of North Carolina, and really focus on
that agency to find out where your avenue to participate is.
And learn that one because time frames and -- it is something
that Hilton and Chris were referring to a while ago. Those
deadlines are set by rule and by statute, so it is -- you need
to learn that and become really, really familiar. Find
yourself an advocate who can sit down with you and walk you
through that, that is required within your local area.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay, thank you. Thank you very
much. Dr. Wang?
Comments
by Dr. Howard Wang
DR. WANG: Thank you. My name is Dr. Howard Wang.
I am the Associate VP for Student Affairs at Cal State,
Fullerton, and that is my full-time job. And in my spare
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time, I am involved in a lot of community organizations. Not
the least is the Fish Contamination and Education
Collaborative related to Palos Verdes Superfund in Region IX.
In fact, I was just here in DC about a month ago to receive
the Community Excellence in Involvement -- Community
Involvement Award representing the Community Resource Council
which I am a member of.
But tonight I will be speaking on behalf of the
Citizens Against Stadium, an issue that is a little bit
different than the issues presented tonight, and also speaking
on behalf of the Citizens for Communities Preservation,
Incorporated, or CCP, Inc.
The Citizens Against Stadium, or CAS, is opposed to
the project proposed by Majestic Realty and the City of
Industry to build a 75,000-seat and 50,000-car parking lot,
about 3 million square feet NFL stadium/entertainment complex
in the east end of Southern California San Gabriel Valley, in
a location where there are rolling hills serving as cow
pastures sandwiched between two bedroom communities, mostly
Walnut and Diamond Bar, plus a number of surrounding
communities.
Numerous state agencies and municipal jurisdictions
have already commented -- made the comment showing concerns
about this project. But the developer continued to suggest
that there is economic growth for the region, contrary to
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academic and economist studies refuting such an association.
In fact, the project will burden all the neighboring
cities with significant traffic impacts, noise, air and light
pollution, and other negative impacts that would jeopardize
the health, safety and the welfare of the residents in the
surrounding communities.
Most significantly, the final Environmental Impact
Report, or EIR, as approved by the City of Industry, was
improperly prepared based on tiering off of the EIR of a 2004
conceptual plan of a business center that was never built.
A 2008 revised plan, they insert the stadium and
entertainment complex in the original plan, is a drastic
change from the 2004 plan, and the developer should have been
required to produce a subsequent, or a brand new, EIR, not a
supplemental EIR, according to the California Environmental
Quality Act, or CEQA.
So, there were two lawsuits brought by the citizens'
group, or CCCP, Inc., and also by the City of Walnut, citing
numerous CEQA violations, including violations of the planning
laws, the Public Records Act, the State Fish and Game Code and
Health and Safety Code.
A motion to dismiss our lawsuit, the citizens'
4— u
lawsuit, was filed by the lead agency and heard on July 7
where the judge's preliminary ruling was in favor of the
citizens' lawsuit. But the case, because of the objection
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from the lead agency, the ruling is still pending.
The City of Walnut, however, intends to negotiate
and settle for monetary return or in kind compensations. On
numerous occasions, the City Hall council members hindered the
citizens' right to speak to the contrary at City Council
meetings because the council or the council members felt that
the citizens' lawsuit is a hindrance to their negotiation.
So I have also submitted a CD, a disk, detailing all
the lawsuits, and so if you want to have information, I have
already submitted to the contractor.
Citizens opposed to the stadium complex believe
there are several injustices that have been bestowed upon
them, aside from the negative environmental impacts.
It is grossly unjust for the developer to "fast
track" the EIR process by capitalizing on a dysfunctional city
government such as City of Industry where a handful of
residents -- there are only 8,000 residents, with 60-something
voters. The voter on the last bond measure that would enhance
the infrastructure in the support of the stadium, only one
voter "no."
It is unconscionable for the developer to not fully
disclose the fact that the EIR was tiered against the 2004 EIR
and not a full EIR.
It is unethical for key local and state officials
and politicians to receive campaign contributions from the
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developer and yet they do not recuse themselves when it comes
to making decisions related to the project. And the close
personal relationship between the developer and the Mayor of
the City of Industry needs to be investigated.
Finally, it is discriminatory for the proposed
project site to be so located so close to the populations of
Hispanic and Asian-American residents, many of whom are first-
generation immigrants, elderly, and non-English speakers.
While key documents such as EIR and notices of public hearings
were all written in English, some promotional flyers
conveniently were printed in both Chinese and English,
depicting the economic benefits which have not been supported
by economists' studies.
So based on all these, we feel that the injustice
has been done, and we would like to see Federal -- on the
Federal level can intervene. This is not a -- this is a
private project, so I understand that, but maybe I can suggest
a few, like file an amicus brief with the presiding judge for
the Walnut citizens' lawsuit. Or encourage the California
Environmental Protection Agency to fully review this case and
publicize the negative impacts to the public to the whole
state because a lot of people don't know about this and most
of those who know the project think it is a done deal.
Finally, encourage the California State Attorney
General to look into investigate the City of Industry's
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process and its relationship with the developer and also look
into the City of Walnut Council, our own City Council, about
violating the First Amendment right of free speech over
citizens by the city attorney.
So I thank you for listening. If you have any
questions --
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Omega?
MR. WILSON: Dr. Wang, my question has to do --
Omega Wilson, West End Revitalization Association, Mebane,
North Carolina. My question has to do with whether or not you
had a chance to enumerate, based on public health statute,
i.e., safe drinking water, Clean Water Act, toxic waste, solid
waste, et cetera, those particular things that affect or
impact a community, not only what may be there now, but what
may be caused as a result of this massive building project.
DR. WANG: Yes, we have challenged the lead agency
about the fact that the supplemental environmental impact
report did not say anything about water and the air quality.
In fact, the AQMD, the California Air Quality Management
District, did receive a copy, a preliminary copy, a
supplemental copy, of the EIR report and for some reason,
their report, their response, was suppressed until I
challenged them in front of the board and then they reissue a
comment showing all the negative air quality impact during the
construction and operation of the stadium.
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For the California Public Health Agency,
conveniently they did not receive an EIR at all. So the
letter to the City of Industry indicated that they have not
received the report and therefore they cannot comment on it.
So we challenged these through our lawsuit that the
-- that is one of the reasons why we challenged the
supplemental EIR was not adequate because they did not address
that, they did not send it to all the key agencies for review.
They somehow conveniently missed the California State Public
Health Department.
MR. WILSON: Quickly, is that something that is
going to be addressed officially? Have they stated they are
going to address these inequities in a report?
DR. WANG: We don't know. We don't know where the
judge is leaning. So far, if the presiding judge for the case
to dismiss -- the motion to dismiss our lawsuit -- is the same
presiding judge, I presume he is, it is possible that he might
rule in our favor that this whole EIR that they approved be
thrown out of court and they have to prepare a brand new EIR.
And then, obviously the Public Health would have to be
included and AQMD has to be included.
We don't know yet. It is day to day. The developer
-- I keep using the word "they" -- they are very confident
that the stadium will go in by the end of the year. And that
is why the urgency -- that is why the reason I am here and my
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community group sent me over here, because a lawsuit is one
thing, but you never know where the judge goes, leans toward,
and because, you know, the developer is a billionaire. He has
lots of money and resources. We don't. We go by fund-raising
and so on. But the fact that they send me over here is based
on fund-raising to send me here for the trip.
So we don't know which way they are going to lean to
us and we need some outside intervention from both community-
based organizations, national-based organizations, and also
Federal intervention at least to encourage the state's
Environmental Protection Agency. I don't know where they have
been. They were never mentioned in the impact, the EIR. I
don't see their comment on it. So they should really -- if
based on our internal experts looking at the EIR who -- which
-- who have decided there are a lot of violations of CEQA,
then the California Environmental Protection Agency should
have said something, and they haven't.
MR. RIDGWAY: Patty?
MS. SALKIN: Patty Salkin, Government Law Center at
Albany Law School. Thanks for your comments.
Unfortunately, this keeps happening all over the
country with stadium development. And I wanted to suggest a
few things.
You said that the state environmental office hasn't
been involved, so the state EJ coordinator hasn't been
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contacted, either, as far as you know?
DR. WANG: Not that I know of. Because of my
involvement with this Fish Collaborative and through the lead
of that project, I was able to contact a lawyer in Region IX,
and his only suggestion was to want to spend some money and
contact an environmental lawyer in the community. But they
cost a lot of money and we were fortunate that we have found
this lawyer who is willing to work pretty much pro bono
because we only pay $5,000 and maybe a little bit more later,
but he is very confident, you know. We don't know yet that he
might be able to get the developer to redo an environmental
new one, new EIR.
MS. SALKIN: Well, let me suggest a few things on
the lawsuit front.
There are a couple of law schools in California that
have environmental justice litigation clinics, and that might
provide some additional resources to your pro bono attorney.
Also, another hat that I wear is I chair the amicus
curiae committee for the American Planning Association.
DR. WANG: Oh —
MS. SALKIN: We typically do not get involved in
trial level cases. We would wait until it got to the State
Supreme Court.
However, that is the national American Planning
Association. California has a couple -- three chapters of the
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American Planning Association, and so you might want to
contact the chapter in your area. I don't know what it is
designated, but I know a bunch of folks that are involved, and
I think that this is something that they might be interested
in, particularly because a number of the planners for the
larger cities in Northern California are members of the
American Institute of Certified Planners, which means that
they have to agree to abide by a code of ethics, and their
code of ethics is replete with social equity statements. And
so that is another hook from the planner's perspective.
On the ethics issue, I suggest that you ask your
attorney to look into the Fair Campaign Practices Act in
California on -- you know, exactly the statement that you made
here with receiving the campaign contributions. I have seen a
lot of decisions from the state that rule in the community's
favor on that issue, not the environmental issue. So, you
know, a two-pronged approach.
Then, lastly, although it may not be the ultimate
outcome that you want, if it looks strategically to you as
though the stadium is likely to be built regardless of the
community opposition, as it happens, you know, routinely,
unfortunately, there are a number of organizations,
particularly in Southern California, that have been involved
in negotiating community benefit agreements with coalitions
from the various communities that wind up hosting
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involuntarily these kinds of stadium projects and it is
another way to get some of the environmental concerns that you
have addressed rather than them being ignored.
Of course, the tradeoff is that the developer often
agrees to do lots of remediation, other things, in exchange
for either your quiet acquiescence or your support, and so you
have got to balance it on whether or not it is worth it, and
different communities feel differently about it.
DR. WANG: Thank you for those suggestions. It is
just -- if I may quickly respond.
We did contact the Golden Gate Law School and talked
to the environmental attorney, but her communications are
piling up. She says she really doesn't have the time, didn't
have time to do it, so -- so, but anyway, we found an attorney
who might be just as effective.
We are dealing with the ethics issue with looking at
a couple of organizations to deal with that.
Then the last one is the City of Diamond Bar has
never filed a lawsuit. They already settled. But the term of
the settlement is $20,000,000, one-time cash, with maybe
$700,000 per month based on ticket sales.
$20,000,000 is hard enough to mitigate the traffic
for one intersection. There are about 30 intersections going
to in and out of the football stadium, it is that huge. So
they -- I don't know where they came from. I mean, they just
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are greedy, I guess. They just accepted $20,000,000.
City of Walnut is following their model and with
failure because the developer has already informed the City of
Walnut saying that they terminated negotiation. We didn't
even know they were negotiating until this developer made the
announcement, so it really -- it didn't surprise us because we
anticipated that was going to happen. So that is where we
also had a recall initiative to recall some of the council
members. And we were correct -- they were negotiating.
MS. SALKIN: After the public comment period closes,
I would just like to give you some names of some attorneys in
Northern California that I think you should contact.
DR. WANG: Appreciate it.
MR. RIDGWAY: Hilton, please.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. My question -- I am Hilton
Kelley, Community In-power and Development Association, Port
Arthur, Texas. How are you doing, Mr. Wang?
DR. WANG: Thank you.
MR. KELLEY: My question is -- I think it has been
answered. There was a public comment period? Was there a
notice posted in a newspaper or a magazine?
DR. WANG: By the lead agency?
MR. KELLEY: Yes.
DR. WANG: Correct. Up to a point, where they
posted all the public hearings and the public meetings, City
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Hall Council meetings, until they have a ready to vote for the
project and the final EIR.
The problem is that before they voted on the final
EIR, they made some modifications and they did not bother to
publish that on the agenda item, as part of the public hearing
agenda item, so the City of Diamond Bar has filed a citizens'
lawsuit also, which I didn't include in my talk, that they
have violated the Brown Act and that also gets --
MR. KELLEY: And that is some leverage?
DR. WANG: That is -- yes, that is their leverage.
We don't know where that is going to go.
I think there is a conference between the lawyer and
the judge and set a date for trial.
MR. KELLEY: And also, my last question: Have you
guys organized and started a petition? And if so, what does
that look like?
DR. WANG: The petition started. The project was
known to the citizens by September, and we collected 35,000
signatures. In fact, those signatures were copied and scanned
and it is on our CD, if you are interested in looking at it.
All the pleadings for the lawsuit as well as dismiss
the lawsuit, there is a counter-argument to dismiss the
lawsuit, they are all on that CD, including the supplemental
EIR, the final EIR, it is all in the CD. So if you are
interested in looking at that, you can ask for a copy of it.
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I submitted a copy of that.
Yes, we have collected signatures. In fact, most of
the -- there are 35,000 signatures collected. The unfortunate
thing is that those who signed the petition are willing to
stick their neck out to say, you know, they are against it,
but there are a lot more. Because it is a predominant
Asian/Hispanic community, most of them don't want to get
involved -- not that they like the stadium; it is they don't
want their name to be associated with it for fear of
retribution and so on and so forth. So we have yet -- you
know, we were unable to collect a lot more signatures.
Walnut is a very small bedroom community. It is not
a poor area but even the houses that are $600,000, $700,000,
up to $1,000,000, but there are 4 or 5 people living in there.
At least 2 of them are grandparents, elderly, and they are not
English speakers. And, you know, the actual voters, the
household voters, maybe it is 18,000. And then, so you can
figure out by percentage that a lot of them don't want to get
involved, so to speak -- that is part of the Asian culture.
That is why we kind of hone in on that. Say, wait a
minute: There are a lot of Hispanics and Asians. Why dump it
over here? Why not in San Marino where the developer lives?
Of course not -- there are no minorities living there. You
know, he is going to -- you know, he would never hear the end
of it.
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But on this end of the Valley, most Asians are just
very quiet and they don't want to rock the boat, and they
won't cause problems.
That is our challenge, is try to get them involved
to -- you know, there are only a few of us here. Out of the
35,000 signatures, there is a core group of 10, 15 decided to
file a lawsuit, stick their neck out for the community, and
that is the situation, so --
MR. KELLEY: Yes, that could be pretty tough,
especially when many of your potential petitioners are being
picked off one by one, and that is a tactic that is used for
various situations, from industry to developers. So -- I
don't know. That is the tough one.
But I would suggest that you try to work with your
community to get them back on board and help them to
understand the impact that the traffic and the construction
will have on your pristine community.
DR. WANG: Yes, we are. We are going to do a lot
more press release and advertising in the newspaper in
multiple languages so that they can understand the impact.
MR. RIDGWAY: Patty, you know your card is up?
Dr. Wang, thank you very much for your time and for
your efforts to travel out here. Thank you.
DR. WANG: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, next up we have Richard Gregg?
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MS.	: Gragg.
MR. RIDGWAY: Gragg, excuse me, and Christine
Bennett, please, if either of you are here.
Comments
by Richard Gragg, PhD.
DR. GRAGG: Good evening. My name is Richard Gragg.
I am -- serve as Associate Professor and Associate Director of
the Environmental Sciences Institute at Florida A&M
University, and I also have the opportunity to direct the
Florida Center for Environmental Equity and Justice, and
through that activity, I represent the State of Florida on the
All-State EJ Work Group. And I am also a former member of
NEJAC.
What I wanted to present this evening is in the
context of community engagement and really at the macro level,
as was mentioned earlier, and especially in light of the
Administrator's recommitment to Executive Order 12898.
My comments have to do with recommending to EPA
through NEJAC, in the effort to accomplish the Agency's
mission in environmental justice. I would like to speak about
three entities that I am a part of which I think could play a
major role in facilitating the initiatives that I have read
about, I am aware about, and that EPA is trying to reengage,
especially community engagement.
As I stated earlier, I am a member of the
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All-States Environmental Justice Work Group, which was begun
in 1999 in Region III by the now EJ Coordinator for Region
III, Reggie Harris, and Arthur Ray, who was the Maryland --
for Maryland, MDE, and he is also a former NEJAC member.
Now that work group is comprised of regional reps,
EJ coordinators from Region I through V and also the
affiliated state reps. And what we try to do, and have been
doing since I have been a member of the group, is really to
build a capacity, do education outreach, and try to help each
other figure out best practices in doing environmental justice
and work for the states that we represent, along with the
assistance of the regional coordinators.
As I mentioned earlier, I am also professor at a
university with happens to be a HBCU and also a land grant
university, and we also house an Environmental Justice Center
which is funded by the State of Florida, and there are a
couple of -- at least three or four other environmental
justice centers at universities around the country.
I am also a member of the Council of Environmental
Deans and Directors, which is a university membership entity
of schools and colleges that house environmental studies or
environmental science programs across the country. And I
think these entities are important because I think they -- we
can -- we are -- but I think we need a more coordinated effort
from EPA to assist EPA in their EJ efforts in terms of
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emerging issues, public participation, collaboration with
regional offices in providing technical assistance to
communities.
As it was mentioned earlier, all of these three
entities can, and do, play a role and can play even a greater
role in getting data, sharing data, and interpreting data that
has to do with environmental justice.
For example, the Council of Environmental Deans and
Directors, we are dealing with an emerging issue of climate
change. And what -- how we are dealing with that, we are
working with NASA and we are trying to work with NSF to
develop a climate curriculum at the universities. And, of
course, one of those topics under the climate curriculum is
environmental justice. As we know, these communities will
have again a disproportionate impact on the outcome of climate
change.
The other thing we are working on and said, this
Council of Environmental Deans and Directors is to understand
and begin to integrate environmental science and public health
curriculums at the undergraduate level. And we are going to
use environmental justice as a model to integrate and look at
those two issues and try to encourage faculty across the
country to start talking about this subject as a whole, and
specifically environmental justice.
And so as a member of the university community, we
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train students in this area and related areas that can help
resolve environmental justice issues. We also train children
from these communities, these impacted communities, and as I
said earlier, we in some cases provide technical assistance
and so forth.
MR. RIDGWAY: Excuse me.
DR. GRAGG: Yes —
MR. RIDGWAY: I was just asked to have you
summarize, due to time, if you can --
DR. GRAGG: Pardon?
MR. RIDGWAY: I need to ask you to summarize, if you
could. We are running short on time.
DR. GRAGG: Okay.
MR. RIDGWAY: And we would be glad to take all the
written testimony that you may want to share.
DR. GRAGG: Okay. All right, thank you.
Well, in summary, then, I would like to recommend
that EPA work to develop a coordinated effort, or cooperative
agreement, between the entities that I mentioned and others to
actually assist EPA in facilitating this environmental justice
effort. Just as an example, EPA has hired APEX to do a great
job of putting together this conference and facilitating the
conference, and I think universities and other entities like
the Council of Environmental Deans and Directors in this
collaboration between state reps and the regional coordinators
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can do the same for environmental justice. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you very much. I appreciate
that. Questions from the Council? Anybody?
(No response)
MR. RIDGWAY: Thanks. And I do want to encourage
written testimony as well.
DR. GRAGG: Okay.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, thank you very much. I
appreciate it, Richard. Next, Christine.
Comments
by Christine Bennett
MS. BENNETT: Good evening. The first thing I want
to say to you, that my name is Christine Bennett, and I am a
member of the Mossville Community. The Mossville
Environmental Action Now is our organization. And I want to
speak to you about our health consequences endured by the
people who are living in the community surrounded by toxin
industries.
And I want to first say to you is that: I will say
it -- try not to cry. I don't know how you do that. And I am
very disturbed, I am angry, I am hurt because while we are
trying to find solutions, the people in Mossville are steady
dying. We had a brother, a sister and then the daughter, then
the son, and now a sister right here in my neighborhood just
this past two months now.
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I have a niece that is 15 years old, has been
diagnosed with cancer. They wanted to take off half of her
face in order to reach the tumor from the breathing in our
community.
We have majority of our -- in my neighborhood, so
far now, I have had two kids right now with asthma. The
doctors don't know why the kids are suffering so bad.
I know why. The 14 toxic plants that are -- have
been settled right here in this African-American community,
families in before -- we were there before the plants were.
Mossville is unincorporated community that is now
surrounded by these 14 industrial facilities that have made
our air unhealthy to breathe, our water unsafe for fishing,
swimming and boating.
Not only that -- we were told that our water system
that ConocoPhillips, Condea Vista, two of the plants that I am
talking of now -- if you have this book here, we are turning
to Page -- moving quickly -- to Page 4, and it says here if
you look, if everyone has the book, on Page 4, where you see
U.S. population, that is you, and the Mossville residents,
that is me -- that is the dioxin that has been proven by our
statements. And I even spoke with someone from the EPA office
that told me they had never seen this report before, never
even looked at it, first time they ever seen it.
So I am amazed at it, but yet we have the highest
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level of dioxin in the population right now. And it says here
on one of the pages that given -- we never know if any of all
of the 14 plants will have an accident. We must live in a
constant state of emergency preparedness.
We are said here from the ATSDR test, we learned
that the blood of the test community members contained an
elevated level of dioxin. In fact, the residents in my
community have been found to have an average dioxin level in
our blood that are three times higher than the national
average.
We said -- when my niece went down, I won't even
attempt to try to say this cancer that she has, but it is some
kind of Mesamoll chadros* sarcoma and it says they only had 35
cases of it, and it is a very, very rare one. And it is right
here, sits right under the nasal passage, and they are --
right now, she is in treatments at the hospital, at the cancer
hospital in Houston. And we are suffering.
I am here today to say: Relocation, relocation.
They have already started -- they have relocated part of my
community because of the water contamination that was done.
We are on that same water system.
We can take a shower, but we can't take a bath.
We can use the water, but only for washing, but not
white clothes.
We can tell us every day what we can do with our
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water, but now it is getting so bad we, people in the
Mossville area, are not even able to purchase water that much
anymore because it is getting so very expensive for us that
some of the people are drinking the water now because they
can't afford to keep buying bottled water.
We are saying to the plants in our area, we are
tired of the smiling faces because the smiling faces are lies.
We are tired of EPA, ATSDR, DEQ lying to us.
We have an area right now by the Conoco plant where
they are sitting there promising to clean up this little bayou
that they have been promising, but it is still sitting there
and no one hasn't cleaned it up yet.
Our drinking water is terrible, as I said earlier.
We want relocation.
We want right now to understand that our people are
dying. Our children want to live. We want to live.
And all we are asking you today is give us a chance.
The dioxin is killing us.
And if you read further into the report, you will
find more about the dioxin level and the other 13 -- we got 4
dioxin plants. We sit right in the middle of the 14. It is 4
of them that is putting out the dioxin.
So we ask you to please let us live. Let our
children live.
Thank you.
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MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Hilton, please.
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. How are you doing, Ms.
Bennett?
MS. BENNETT: Fine.
MR. KELLEY: Hilton Kelley with the Community In-
power and Development Association, Port Arthur, Texas.
I would just like to say that I am very familiar
with Mossville. I have been there on several occasions, as
you know. We were together on the Toxic Tour, me and your
husband, Mr. Delma Bennett. And I was appalled when I came to
your community and seen some of the things that you guys had
to deal with. It is very much like West Port Arthur, but just
so your community is a little bit tighter knit and closer, a
little bit more rural.
I would just like to know, is industry working with
you guys on the relocation or are you facing a lot of
opposition when you talk with some of the plant managers in
their particular area?
MS. BENNETT: Well, the plant managers we just met.
Well, today we were supposed to meet with the CEO, Mr.
Marver*, but he declined on it. He did not show up. He just
cancelled the meeting.
But we seen that every time we try to call for a
meeting, they want us at the plant. We want them in the
community. We want them to feel what we have got to feel
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every day. But yet, they want to schedule the meetings at
their facilities. They won't come to our community.
MR. KELLEY: So out of the 14 plants that you are
surrounded by, only 1 plant manager even sent word that he was
not willing to talk with you guys?
MS. BENNETT: It is only one so far. That is all we
have had.
MR. KELLEY: Okay. Thank you.
MS. BENNETT: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Omega, please?
MR. WILSON: Very glad to hear you here.
MS. BENNETT: Thank you.
MR. WILSON: Very glad to see you. Very
disappointed in the cooperation you are getting from all these
Federal agencies.
I am looking at Page 12. I am not trying to direct
your presentation, but --
MS. BENNETT: That is okay.
MR. WILSON: -- I am looking into Page 12 at the
simple diagram you have at the top that looks at it from a
multimedia point of view, to air, water -- I assume you don't
say "soil" there, but if you are dealing with water on the
ground, and of course you have got soil involved in the fish.
MS. BENNETT: On 14.
MR. WILSON: Page 12 —
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MS. BENNETT: Yes.
MR. WILSON: Right.
MS. BENNETT: I was saying 14 would say the soil.
MR. WILSON: Right -- yes, okay, yes. And the
consumption of all of this contamination that goes through the
food chain and everything to the residents. Are you getting
the cooperation that you need from an interagency point of
view? Because all of these -- each part of this diagram
technically deals with a different branch of the government as
far as EPA, soil management, agriculture, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera. Are you having to drag those different
agencies together yourself, or are you getting cooperation
from an interagency approach from those Federal organizations
that are responsible for monitoring and managing these
environmental pollution problems?
MS. BENNETT: We have to drag. We have to do this
ourselves. We haven't had many to -- well, really, I am
not -- I don't know of any have really ever came out to try
and help us. There is no one.
We have this report here done by Wilma Subra. And
she is one of the scientists that has been helping us the
greatest right now. And three great, fine women, and they are
the people that has been doing the most help with us, and that
is Michele Robertson and Monique Hardy* and Michele -- I mean,
Nathalie Walker. They are the people that has been helping
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us.
MR. WILSON: From the national level, you were
earlier talking about EPA and other Federal agencies not being
honest with you.
MS. BENNETT: Right.
MR. WILSON: Have you gotten any audience at all? I
mean, besides this one for an advisory point of view, who are
saying that we are going to address this and call the agencies
that are responsible together in the same room at the same
table so you can address the issues that you are talking about
in a cooperative way to solve the problem?
MS. BENNETT: Like in the community?
MR. WILSON: Right. In the community.
MS. BENNETT: No. They -- like I said, this report
here, an EPA man told me this is the first time he ever saw
the report. Never knew it was even out. And this has been
out for over four or five years now. And he said this was his
first time ever seeing it. And I had many to tell me that
just this past couple of weeks. First time they ever seen the
report.
Now, the man for the CEO told me that he was amazed
behind it. And that is all they are saying. But while
everybody is amazed and behind it, people are steady dying.
Children coming down with cancer, fighting to breathe. And no
one knows what is causing it? Yes, they know, but will they
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help? No, they won't. It is a small African-American
community. They just need to either die out or move out.
MR. RIDGWAY: Wynecta, please?
MS. FISHER: Wynecta Fisher, City of New Orleans.
And Christine, thank you for coming and --
MS. BENNETT: Thank you.
MS. FISHER: -- actually I want to thank you for
also coming to the listening session that we had.
Actually I have a statement, then a question,
because I was amazed that when you mentioned the level of
dioxin in your blood that I don't remember where the gentleman
was from, but he said that we all had dioxin in our blood, and
I thought that was a kind of inappropriate response to you.
But my question is about relocation. And you had
stated that some of the community had been relocated. How was
that determined, who was relocated and who wasn't relocated?
Can you tell me? And who relocated both individuals?
MS. BENNETT: Well, Condea Vista made -- you know,
realized that they had contaminated the water and that the
people in that community had to move out immediately. So they
began to pull the community together with meetings and find
out how much, you know, it would cost to move all of them, and
there were some that are still there, you know, because Condea
Vista did not pay them what their property was worth, you
know?
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Majority of them left, but there are still some
there, but that is how it got started. They had meetings,
they came together, many meetings, and moved them out, and
that same water system is the water system that we are on.
MS. FISHER: And they didn't offer relocation in
your community at all?
MS. BENNETT: No, we are just getting ready to start
begging and pleading for this kind of help.
MS. FISHER: And do you have any idea how long it
took for them to be relocated from -- maybe an estimate, from
the time they requested it to the time they actually --
MS. BENNETT: Seriously, to tell you that, when they
first found -- when Condea Vista realized that they had
contaminated the water, it didn't take long before they had
them -- anybody who wanted to move, they -- they knew what
they had done. But they said the plume, or whatever that was,
that it didn't go in our direction. But yet, we are on the
same water system.
MS. FISHER: Okay, thank you.
MS. BENNETT: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Christine, I have one question. And
have you talked with the EPA regional EJ coordinator on this
issue? Has that person, I believe it is Region IV,
acknowledged this at all or -- I am sorry, Region VI --? Any
comment on that?
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MS. BENNETT: We have had a lot of them from EPA,
have talked with us, but so far as coming down to the
Mossville community, meeting with the community, no. But we
have had statements, we have had phone calls, we have had
emails. But yet -- come! Come clean up what, you know, the
plants are messing. And just come and be in the area.
I invite all you guys to come out to Mossville. I
mean, it is no way in. It is no way in without you getting
affected, because we are surrounded. That is probably why
they won't come. They are afraid, too. But we don't have no
place to run. We live there.
They will talk to us outside of the community, but
they won't even come near the Mossville area. They are
trying, they are talking about it, but I am sure everybody is
scared to come there. But what about us, those who can't move
right now?
MR. RIDGWAY: Well, I would like to ask Charles and
maybe Victoria to help follow up on this and see if we can get
somebody to actually go and visit from Region VI and contact
you, thanks to your testimony here, and for other reasons.
MS. BENNETT: And that is just who I want them to
contact, is me, Christine Bennett, so I will know, because I
am fighting for my life right now. I am having low -- right
now, these spots that are on me is what doctors don't know
what is causing it, but they say it is a low white cell blood
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count and they don't know why my blood counts are going down.
But I just want to live to be able to tell the
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you.
MS. BENNETT: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: And thank you for your time and effort
here and speak with --
MR.	: You have a question over here,
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Lang.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. I am sorry. Lang?
MR. MARSH: Yes, hi. Lang Marsh from the National
Consensus Center.
I was in -- really appreciate your testimony. It is
very heartfelt and very disturbing.
I was involved in the initial -- one of the first
toxic waste site clean-ups, at Love Canal in New York, a long
time ago. And that involved, eventually, a significant
relocation of people from their houses.
My recollection is that it was the State Health
Department that provided the evidence and a lot of the impetus
for, you know, the decision to go ahead and move people out.
And so I guess my question is, has the -- have the state
health folks been involved in your community and provided any
assistance and -- or information that would lead to a decision
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to get
John.
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on the -- you know, the pros and cons of relocation?
MS. BENNETT: Right now, what we are going through,
and to address that question, is this. They want to say that
the report that was taken by us of the scientists that we got
doesn't match their report. Okay, if that is true, come to
our community and do it for us and let us see your report. We
haven't seen their report, but we are willing to let them see
ours. And no one is helping us. Because what is happening
now is while we are waiting for answers, people are dying.
No one has helped us yet. They are talking now, a
lot of them are talking, but while they are talking, like I
said, we are dying. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you again. I appreciate your
time, and I wish you luck as well. I will see what we can do
to get some EPA people to contact you directly.
MS. BENNETT: Please.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you.
MS. BENNETT: Don't forget. Come and visit
Mossville.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you for the invitation.
MS. BENNETT: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, next on the list -- I believe
these people are not here, but I want to double-check --
Michael Roberts?
MS.	: Michele.
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MR. RIDGWAY: I am sorry, excuse me -- Michele. And
Wilma Subra.
MS.	: Subra.
MR. RIDGWAY: Subra, that is what I thought.
MS.	: Right, Subra.
MR. RIDGWAY: She is not here, okay. And --
MS.	: Sacoby --
MR. RIDGWAY: Sacoby, thank you. Is Sacoby here
tonight?
MS.	: He is going to be running late.
MS. ROBINSON: Sacoby is going to be running late.
He asked to be pushed to the back.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay.
MS. ROBINSON: He had another commitment. He is
going to try to swing back here.
MR. RIDGWAY: Then, Devon Hall, please. So, the two
of you, if you both come up. Thanks. And, Michele, please, I
will have you start.
Comments
by Michele Roberts
MS. ROBERTS: Thank you so much for having me speak.
My name is Michele Roberts. I am Campaign and Policy
Coordinator with Advocates for Environmental Human Rights.
Advocates for Environmental Human Rights is dedicated to
upholding everyone's human right to live in a healthy
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environment.
You heard a couple of excerpts from my -- one of my
Co-Directors, Nathalie Walker. One of the things that
Advocates for Environmental Human Rights -- we, as you can
tell, and heard from the testimony of Christine Bennett,
Christine and the Mossville community are just one of the many
communities that our organization serves.
We are headquartered in New Orleans, Louisiana, and
recently felt compelled two years ago to open a Campaign and
Policy Office, to which I run, in Washington, DC, namely
because of the fact that we have been successful on the
systemic case-by-case basis, but it is clearly obvious, and
even more so as we listen to the many testimonies that you
have heard tonight, that we need an overarching, systemic
change to our, what we call -- what I would like to call
"environmental regulatory system." It is not a protection
system, unfortunately. And so, therefore, we need an
overarching change in order to get it to the system that we
are saying on paper that it is.
It is not fair and not right that communities of
color and the poor must be subjected to coming to plead before
a body such as yours and others that they need to be
relocated. These are their homes, these are the places that
they live and play and worship and go to school.
The community of Mossville, like many others, was
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founded at -- on the heels of slavery, so now we have
generations of people who had to withstand Jim Crow and the
awful degradational stain of racial segregation and the likes,
and now be confronted with having to live in that same mindset
or analogy, if you will, only in communities where they are --
by law now, we went from laws that it said you can't live in
certain communities to now we have laws that say it is the
right to pollute certain communities.
Our Clean Water Act and our Clean Air Act literally
allow for the spewing of these massive tons of toxins, if you
will, in communities. It allows -- we have policies and
regulatory bodies that allow for these cumulative impacts to
occur, to have all of these various toxic bodies, if you will,
what you hear from our friends, the hog farm, and all of these
things.
So we appeal to you to look at our human rights
standards to which we as a country have already signed onto,
given the fact that we are part of the Organization of
American States. We see this happening in Europe. We are
asking that we hopefully marry the NEJAC internationals body
with the NEJAC domestic body because we need to have a
precautionary system in place.
We are going to hell in a hand-basket with these
toxins that we are allowing to spew into the environment. And
now, as we take on the whole notion of climate change and what
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it is we need to have, a more fair and just climate, then we
really need to be mindful of the laws, because of the fact
that as we sit here today, we -- our U.S. Congress is now
debating on how we allow for these industries to do further
harm to these communities. This cap and trade and all of
these other things allow for further harm.
So what you see today before you in this body of
having all of these people testify, it will just multiply in
major numbers if we continue to go down this destructive path
that we are on. We are very bright people, we are very well-
intended people, and we are very conscionable people.
We appeal to you, the NEJAC, now that we have a new
structure here, a structure that is willing to listen, a
structure that is willing to feel, and a structure that is
willing to work, we appeal to you to let us work together to
revamp this system -- 30 years of an environmental regulatory
process that has seen to it Mossville is actually a child of
this 30-year process. So it is obvious that the process is
broken. We need radical overhaul. And we appeal to you, the
NEJAC process, to help us make that work.
Thank you so very much.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Questions from Council?
Hilton?
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. How are you doing, Michele?
Hilton Kelley, with the Community In-power Development
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Association located in Port Arthur, Texas, on the Gulf Coast.
I am very much familiar with the situation in
Mossville and all along the Naches River and leading right
into the Gulf of Mexico, and it is high time that something be
done about the situation in Mossville, Louisiana, and we
are -- our organization really is kind of dedicated to doing
what we can to help people in a situation when it comes to
refineries and chemical plants. And I would just like to
encourage you all to hang in there, keep the fight going for
relocation and a fair market price for your houses, because I
know that sometimes they try and offer you something that is
really, really low for your property and it is not fair.
But relocation, I think, at this particular time, is
the answer, but yet, just keep pushing.
MS. ROBERTS: Thank you very much. And you are
right -- relocation is the answer.
But what I am saying today, Mr. Kelley, is that
people should not have to be faced with the fact of relocating
from their home.
The CEO of ConocoPhillips, Jim Mulva, does not have
to be faced with the fact of relocating from his home. He
goes home to breathe clean air.
The owners of Smithfield, they don't have to be
faced with the fact of relocating from their home because now
the stench is so bad around where they live.
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The folks who live in Holland Drive community of
Federalsburg, Maryland, should not have to be confronted with
relocating from their home because they live on an area where
they cleared wetlands and just placed houses on top.
The folks in Bayview-Hunters Point should not have
to be relegated to relocating from their home because of the
fact that the Navy seemed so fit to want to excavate dirt and
say that it is naturally occurring asbestos as opposed to
aggregating in the particulates that are on the Superfund site
that, oh, by the way, no one wants to talk about, and there
are six schools within a half-mile radius.
We have got to stop this round robin conversation of
saying what people can just live with while the process --
"You don't understand. The process takes a little while."
Well, my question is to you: Would you want to live in that?
And how long do we have to live like this?
So I know that I am heated right now, but it just --
I am just grieving over the fact that we have got to sit here
and listen to all of these heart-wrenching stories, all the
while saying "it takes a process." How long does someone have
to die in a long -- I had an aunt that died of urethral
cancer. I want you to know -- of urethral cancer. Should
people have to live like that?
MR. KELLEY: No, I don't think that they should.
Coming out of Port Arthur, Texas, I fought for ten
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years, and I am still fighting -- we fought for relocation
simply because we could not get the plants to reduce the
amount of emissions that they are releasing and expansion
projects are steady taking place right under our nose, but --
and I still continue to fight, so I totally understand what
you are saying.
We should not have to leave the communities that we
were born in, the schools that we recognize, the familiar
places, simply because industry wants to intrude upon our
property. Yes, I totally agree with you on that.
But yet, if we want to try to get some kind of
reprieve for the people that are becoming ill, I guess we
would have to just keep pushing harder to try to get these
industries to reduce the emission and to do business a little
differently.
MS. ROBERTS: I would like to push harder to change
the regulatory process, period. And changing the regulatory
process, period, it addresses the reduction of the emissions
because from the framework that I am speaking on, by
incorporating the precautionary principle, we won't even be
having this conversation, Mr. Kelley. And the children in
your neighborhood wouldn't have asthma. Motiva would not be
expanding at the rate that they are expanding in your
community. And the cap and trade chemical that we are talking
about with climate change would not allow Motiva to do tar
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sand extraction, which you will be at the table next, talking
about.
So this is what I am saying: Our process is such
that we allow these -- unfortunately, that we allow these
egregious acts to happen.
As Mr. Marsh said about Love Canal, and I worked
with Lois Gibbs, and I thank you very much for that --
Mossville right now, if we had -- we didn't learn, obviously,
from Love Canal because Dr. William Legator said that
Mossville is in a worse situation than Love Canal.
So my point is, Love Canal happened 30 years ago.
It is obvious that we are not learning the lesson. Therefore,
it is like Tracy Chapman sings in her song, "The world is
broke/It needs fixin'/We need to start all over."
We need a radical overhaul, and we need to
incorporate the human rights framework into this, and it is
not hard to do.
MR. RIDGWAY: Wynecta, please.
MS. FISHER: Wynecta Fisher, City of New Orleans,
Director of Mayor's Office of Environmental Affairs.
You are saying what I touched upon a little bit
earlier, what I mentioned, a little bit, a part of it, to
Mustafa Ali, that the gentleman, Dr. Wang, mentioned, and the
problem is in the regulation. And it is twofold, because if
what you -- if what someone is doing is legal, it is difficult
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to stop it.
So the only way to stop or make the change is to do
what you are saying: Change the law. And this would actually
-- I want this to hopefully be something that we can discuss
in one of our Emerging Issues, because this is -- it is an
emerging issue.
If not, then we are going to be 30 years from now --
well, I probably won't be here 30 years from now, but 30 years
from now, we will be talking about the same thing.
So, somehow or the other, I think that would be a
great legacy that this NEJAC Council can leave behind, is that
we began the dialogue to actually begin to change these
regulations, because the thing that a company will say is that
"I am" -- "well, I have the permit, it is in accordance with
state law," and then you can't touch them.
So, that is an issue.
Then, Dr. Wang -- and I am sorry I had to run out,
but that is another issue -- and that is when people use
private funds, they don't have to go through some of those
Federal processes like an Environmental Impact Statement which
does protect a community. And a lot of people are beginning
to use private funding so they don't have to do that
Environmental Impact Statement.
So, those are some things that I think we should
talk about on Thursday.
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And thank you very much for coming here.
MS. ROBERTS: Thank you so much.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you very much for your time and
testimony tonight. I appreciate it. And we will get that on
the agenda for consideration Thursday.
Okay, anybody else? Omega?
MR. WILSON: Yes, Michele, I am very glad to hear
you speak. You speak to the point and you speak so well about
the issue.
The issue of relocation comes up in so many
environmental concerns, from transportation corridors and
other kinds of things, some of which we will talk about
tomorrow. But it raises another issue, and I am going to ask
it because I don't think you have not thought of it, so you
will have a chance to respond.
By relocating communities, what do -- how do you
respond to the whole question that it gives license to
expansion of environmental impacts that are far beyond the
immediate communities that are relocated, that it creates hot
spots that even EPA and all the Federal agencies cannot
control by giving that license to say, "Just move the people
away and let us keep doing what we are doing, let us keep
polluting?"
I don't want to put words in your mouth because I
think you speak very eloquently, but can you comment to this
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whole question of "just move the people out, move the poor
affected people out, and let us keep polluting till the core
of the earth is melted?"
MS. ROBERTS: Sure. You know, the example today
that Christine just spoke about with respect to
ConocoPhillips, we have done some shareholder activism. We
have organized, we worked with the community in support of the
Mossville community, and we accompanied Mossville to the
shareholders meeting 2008.
Jim Mulva, ConocoPhillips, he said, you know, he
would come out to the community. Didn't come. 2009, said he
would come out -- didn't come. And the folks went and just
pushed up on him at the shareholders meeting, said, "You have
got to come -- people are dying."
So he was supposed to come today at 1:00. He sent
an email -- and, oh, by the way, he told them, "You cannot
bring all of your core membership." Meanwhile, he had told
them initially that they would be able to, he being the plant
manager at Lake Charles. And they also told them they could
not bring their advisors, being our organization, Advocates
for Environmental Human Rights, and the Subra Company.
Meanwhile, they have their team of lawyers and scientists and
everything else, right?
But the thing is -- he didn't show up, the plant --
I mean, the CEO. And the CEO didn't show up because there
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were other folks calling on the behalf of the community, I am
quite sure.
But I say all that to say, they know, these folks
know, that they can wait people out. And they know that at
the end of the day, there could possibly be a deal that is
struck, like in the Bel Air case. They did not pay the people
what they should have been paid to move. And what do we call
fair?
And so, therefore, you can allow the people -- just
wait them out, the people move, and then you further
contaminate the land because you figure at this point, I can
now do what I want to do.
But then, what happens is, like in the case of
Smithfield, you wind up with a water body from North Carolina
now polluting all the way up into New England. Or, you wind
up, like with our friends in -- up in Alaska, our Native
American friends up in Alaska, who are now seeing dioxin in
the caribou -- excuse me, DDT, rather, I am sorry, DDT, which
is a component of dioxin. But they are seeing DDT in the
caribou in Alaska where they have never used it before.
So you allow people to continue to degrade and
degrade and degrade the environment and the earth, and it just
goes on and moves, continues to move. So while you are moving
the community, the pollution still moves, too. And then it
gets to a point that we have no space left. And now we get to
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talking about this whole climate change. And in the meantime,
we are talking about climate change, but yet we are allowing
for mountaintop removal, we are allowing for tar sands
extraction, and the tar sand extraction is actually shifting
our -- under the earth, if you will. So we are creating more
ways to have even more disastrous storms and all of these
other things.
So, how far do we go? And that is my question. How
far do we go? And that is what communities are asking.
How many times must I be moved? There are some
communities that have been moved in the Gulf Coast that have
moved from one community, thinking they are moving to a safe
haven of another community, only to move to that community and
now the pollution is there.
MR. WILSON: Thank you, Michele.
MR. RIDGWAY: Michele, thank you very much for your
time and your comments and advice for us. Thank you.
Okay, I think we have Devon Hall, please.
Comments
by Devon Hall
MR. HALL: I am Devon Hall. I am the Project
Manager for the Rural Empowerment Association for Community
Help located in Warsaw, North Carolina, or Duplin County.
I will pretty much be just echoing what Dothula
Baron-Hall -- on her comments.
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Duplin County is home to approximately 53,000 people
and 2,200,000 million hogs being raised annually. There are
10,000,000 hogs total in the state annually.
I guess some sitting here may think, you know, that
is the smell of bacon. But for the residents of Duplin
County, it is the smell of hog waste that is stored in
cesspools, called lagoons, that pollutes air, ground and
surface water.
When I attended the North Carolina Environmental
Justice Network's summit in October, 2005, the EPA was viewed
as the CPA at that time to many at that -- at the summit
because it appeared to take sides with the corporation or
protect the giant swine industry by allowing them to spray hog
waste in communities, sometimes on homes and fields and
ditches that many times run into creeks and streams.
For us, this plight is real because we live with it
daily. If the EPA's environmental justice project officer
that is assigned to our region or the EPA-funded projects were
able to spend more time in our communities, then he or she
might better understand the concerns that face the community
after hearing real day-to-day stories, or testimony from the
people that are being dumped on.
I believe that EPA could be a better tool to assist
affected communities in the way of being heard by local and
state environmental lawmakers or policymakers.
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Again, I am just echoing what Dothula has stated
4— u
earlier. But on last Thursday, July 16 , we were able to
coordinate with another nonprofit environmentalist group
called Riverkeepers, and we were able to conduct a tour in
which we were able to bring some new stakeholders to the
table. And in this tour, we were able to give them an
aeroflight, and then upon arriving on the ground, we were able
to give them a ground tour as well.
It is real, what we are faced with in Duplin County,
and sometimes it -- we realize that you sitting around the
table here, you know, you at all, you say, how can this be?
How can hog waste be sprayed upon people's homes? And how can
hog waste runoffs into the creeks and streams and ditches and
pollute, you know, our surface and groundwater?
We would like for the EPA to look at this in a
different manner. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Council members, any
questions? Omega?
MR. WILSON: I am going back to tomorrow again.
Tomorrow we are talking about Goods Movement and Diesel
Emissions as far as -- and of course the work group that I
have been working with with the Goods Movement for the last
couple of years deals with the impact of goods movement and
the focus has to do with air quality and what it does to low-
income and minority communities, environmental justice
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communities, in various parts of the country.
In this particular case, I would like for you to
explain for us -- and, of course, I am from North Carolina, I
know Mr. and Mrs. Hall. I will say clearly they are friends
of mine. You know, we fight the same battle in the same state
territorial lines. But I am very glad they are here telling
their own story because I have been telling part of it, you
know, for the last two and a half years as a part of my work
with NEJAC.
But one of the things I want you to help us
understand is that, in this case, the goods that are being
moved are hogs, right? And that the air quality contamination
which you deal with is diesel emission mixed with the waste
that comes from the chemical -- the hog waste contamination,
all that combined.
Are you getting any results from EPA, Department of
Agriculture, Department of Interior, all those other agencies
that deal with that kind of environmental contamination? Are
you getting any positive result for addressing these issues?
Because in this particular case, you are speaking about this
hog industry problem in Duplin County is the biggest, one of
the biggest in the world. So right now you are speaking for a
world industry, not just Duplin County. You are not speaking
for North Carolina. You are not speaking for the United
States.
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MR. HALL: That is right.
MR. WILSON: You are speaking for the world, because
this is a world industry you are talking about.
Can you help us understand that air quality impact
along with the goods movement part and how it is or is not
being addressed by Federal agencies?
MR. HALL: In trying to answer that, in, I guess,
April, May, of 2006, a young man came to our office and he
worked as a truck driver for a rendering plant. And one night
actually --
MR. WILSON: Explain what rendering quick -- what
rendering means.
MR. HALL: A rendering plant is a plant where they
dispose of, or process, the dead hogs.
Again, this young man on this -- on the job, wearing
the equipment, or proper boots, that the -- his job required,
one night stepped from his truck into a puddle of water
that -- he thought. But little did he know that it was
contaminated with what the doctors told him was live bacteria.
I have a picture that was taken at the emergency
room the next day when he did arrive. And in this picture, a
portion of his foot, the bottom portion of his foot, was
already eaten away, and two of his toes.
This took place in January of '06. In December of
'06, he was 	 My concern here today is, why is it that an
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industry, knowing that this man is doing his job the way that
they asked him to perform it, and once he is injured not of
his own fault, that he again had to try to secure an attorney
just to get workman's comp? And I think the -- on the Death
Certificate, you know, it states that -- "heart failure."
Well, I know that this young man had a son that had
just entered college, so he is unable to provide for his
family. I myself would blame the industry for that, saying
that instead of the Death Certificate saying "heart failure,"
but in a sense the industry killed this young man.
The transporting of these goods? The industry owns
the trucks, they own the hogs, they own the feed, but the
contract growers in many cases are left to dispose of the
waste.
MR. WILSON: Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Chuck, and then Elizabeth.
MR. BARLOW: Just for the benefit of the Council, if
-- as we think further about these issues, these issues are
issues that there is a lot of data about, a lot of studies, a
lot of blue ribbon panels, a lot of rule-making at the EPA
level and on different state levels. Not trying at all to say
that it was done well, it was done good, it was -- you agree
or you don't agree.
I am just saying it is one of those issues that to
sort of get up to speed on what has been done in the past, or
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looked at, or not looked at, in the past. This is one of
those issues where you do read a stack of stuff, you know,
instead of starting from scratch, just say -- so there is a
lot of information out there from a -- you know, a large
variety of different sources.
So, if we do -- I am just saying if we do -- you
know, if there is something this Council decides to get into,
there is a lot of stuff out there to look at and then figure
out, okay, what is, you know, well done, not well done, what
are the gaps, what are -- you know, whatever 	
MR. RIDGWAY: Elizabeth?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Now, as you talk about this problem
and as I heard Michele and Dothula and Christine, I put myself
in your place as you are talking about and I feel emotionally
overwhelmed by the size of it and by the injustice of it all.
And I can't honestly say that I could tell you what the NEJAC
should do.
I could tell you as an activist that, you know, as
you are talking about this, I think that you should call for a
national boycott of pork and products that have pork on them
and raise the level of the discussion. And maybe that sounds
crazy, but, honestly, the only way to get people to come
correct is by affecting them in their pockets when the issue
is that big and when you have either little resources or, you
know, a small amount of people who can help you with this.
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So, I mean, I always think about things as an
organizer and I think about things as an activist, and I just
think that, how else do you get them to come correct? Because
there is a lot of national attention that has been played. I
mean, we have seen shows on PBS and Channel 13 about these
businesses. There is a lot of documentation. It is not like
the Federal government doesn't know that this is happening.
So, the question is, what is your ask? What is it
that you want us to do? And if you want them to change their
practices, if you want them to operate their business in a way
that is more humane both to the workers and the people who
live in that community, then you are going to have to affect
them where they live, and that is basically in their pockets.
MR. HALL: Boycotting may work, but if the EPA will
allow the industry to downplay swine flu by calling it H1N1,
then what are we left with? I mean, what's to do next?
MR. RIDGWAY: Hilton, please.
MR. KELLEY: Yes. I basically just have a comment,
actually, and, you know, what Michele said earlier really,
really resonated with me and struck a nerve, simply because
she is right, you know? How many people, how many communities
do we move?
As we continue to move folks off their God-given
land, been there for generations after generation, and yet
when industry encroaches, you know, we -- and they need the
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space, and they are going to dump this toxic waste, so we pack
up one community.
I know at Port Neches-Groves, right next to Port
Arthur, a whole community was moved that had been there for
years, I believe before the industries were even there. And
now we have hog farms that are getting closer and closer to
people's homes and communities, and the stench is so bad it is
killing folks. Do we move them as well? When do we stop?
Just like Michele said earlier, it is time to deal
with policy, it is time to deal with regulation change, and it
is time to deal with the laws that govern these industries and
look at ways in which we can push these guys to do business
better or to not locate in certain areas. I think that is our
only option here because, before you know it, we are all going
to be living in the middle of the country, in the Midwest,
scared to go anywhere else!
So, it is time that we stop, take a look at what is
happening, and look at ways in which we can get industries to
do business a little differently, or much, much more different
than what they are doing now.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Chuck?
MR. BARLOW: Mr. Hall, I had a question that --
several years ago, in a different lifetime when I had to deal
with this issue a lot, one of the thoughts was that over about
a 10-year period, the contract growers would have at least,
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you know, made their money back that they invested in it and
that maybe these things would sort of cycle off, you know?
Maybe that they would be in a position where it would become
politically realistic, you know, to begin to close down these
facilities or to significantly change the facilities because
people would have had time to make their investment back. I
just wondered if you had seen any of that, if any of that had
actually happened, or if things now are pretty much the same
as they were 10, 15 years ago?
MR. HALL: Things are pretty much the same. When
we, and I say REACH, along with other environmentalist groups,
petitioned the General Assembly to pass a bill to eliminate
the uses of lagoons and sprayfields, you know, in the way that
they are being used now, there was a bill passed, Senate Bill
1465, with an attachment, Senate Bill 3, to allow the same
industry that is polluting to put a tarp over lagoons that
would capture methane. You still have a lagoon. You still
have the particulate matters that are being emitted from these
confinement buildings.
So, every time that we attempt to try to get some
type of rulings or regulations put in place to eliminate the
problem because there has been some superior technology
developed, then industry will come back and say, "Well, we can
make more money if we capture methane and sell it to the power
company." So, there we are, stuck again.
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Once -- if -- once the industry, and of course it
has -- once an industry like this takes hold in a community,
then it is ever so hard to get them to move because -- at one
point, we began to look at contributions that the pork council
was giving to the legislators for campaign funds, and I think
the report stated that almost all the legislators campaigning
receives somewhere between the amount of $2,000 to $3,000 a
year.
So what is going to happen? Whenever there is a
concern or issue involving the pork industry and wanting some
laws or some rule-making change to help the affected
communities, we need help from the EPA.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you. Jody, and then Wynecta.
MS. HENNEKE: Jody Hennecke with the Texas General
Land Office.
Back in the beginning of a lot of the what is known
in that world as "integrated agriculture," it -- the poultry
industry was the first species that integrated it and that was
back in the x50s, and principally in northwestern Arkansas.
And that was then followed by the swine industry.
I go through all of that with some of Chuck's
questions, and that is the contractor growers have the
shortest margin of anybody in that entire production chain, so
it is -- while once upon a time, at least in the poultry
industry, it was thought that a 10-year cycle would allow the
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grower to get their investment back, it really hasn't been
exactly that way. And the industry, both on the -- but the
reason that it was integrated the way that it was from the
company owning the -- everything from the feed to the breeding
stock is because of the short generation interval of both
chickens and hogs.
The beef industry, and I am sorry you guys get to
learn this other side of my life -- I have a background in
agriculture -- but the beef industry from birth to market, the
time interval is such that it doesn't pay the industry to
integrate.
But it is -- the control, environmental regulatory
control, has never been successful working at just the grower
side of it because the money is not on the grower side, it is
on the company side. At least that is what my experience has
been.
MR. RIDGWAY: Wynecta?
MS. FISHER: Wynecta Fisher, City of New Orleans,
Mayor's Office of Environmental Affairs. I just have two
questions.
The first one is the -- does this -- I think this is
a little -- it is EPA and also Department of Agriculture, are
they -- have you worked with them, or what is their -- do they
have any input, or are they just turning a blind eye to it,
or --?
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MR. HALL: I think -- in March, I think, 2007,
whenever we hosted a conference, more or less a roundtable,
discussion-type conference, and we had EPA representatives
there, we invited state and local government officials there,
and it was hard getting the state representation there. DENR,
after calling and emailing and -- we put approximately 2
months of work in planning this event, just to, you know, have
a lot of no-shows.
MS. FISHER: Okay. And my second piece is more of a
comment, and I hear it a lot where I currently -- where I
live, and I just heard it twice in here, and it bothers me. I
am only speaking for me at this time, okay, and I guess I
always am. But I don't understand -- I mean, I understand
that, you know, a company is in the business of making a
profit. What I don't understand is why there is always talk
about the investment that they are making, and no one ever
looks at the reduction in the quality of the -- in reduction
of quality of life of the people that live in that community.
You know, it is always -- and -- is we heard it
three or four times tonight. He has mentioned it, people in
Mossville mentioned it, even Dr. Wang said that there was a
flyer for the meetings, wasn't in another language, but what
was in another language is the economic advantages of doing
this. And at some point, someone has to kind of raise a flag
asking the question, why is that allowed? And of course you
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can't -- someone has freedom of speech. But it seems like
there is something that we can do possibly in a regulatory way
that would limit how they market, just like there is a truth
in advertising, limit how they market what they are trying to
relocate, what they are trying to put in your community.
I mean, why don't you be honest with a person? I
would rather someone say to me, you know, "I want to put this
in your community. It is going to probably cause A, B, C, D
health effect, and you are going to potentially earn X-amount
of dollars," and then let me weigh that decision. But, see,
you are not being told that. And so I think that is something
that we should think about and possibly discuss.
MR. HALL: At this point, the industry is so big
that your state and local government, they don't want to touch
it. They are afraid of it.
MR. RIDGWAY: Elizabeth?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Yes. There is a human cost, and
there is an economic analysis associated with a human cost.
You know, we often talk about when a child misses
school and their parents have to leave work, what does that
cost in terms of insurance, what does that cost in terms of
their employment, what does it mean in terms of the future
opportunities for that child whose education has been
interrupted? And how do we measure that in terms of dollars,
since often that is what people understand? What does that
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cost the state, the municipality, the city, so that you can
actually assess what the damage of a company like that is and
put a dollar -- and I know it almost seems inappropriate -- a
dollar amount on the human cost? Because that has so much
value. So I mean, it -- we have talked about doing something
like that.
MS. FISHER: I would like to see us do something
like that, maybe provide -- that is a tool in a toolbox that a
community can use, if it is --
MR. RIDGWAY: Devon, I apologize for mispronouncing
your name earlier. Thank you very much for your time tonight,
and I have a commitment here to be sure that this is also
added to the list of upcoming issues for this Council and --
MR. HALL: Thank you for having me.
MR. RIDGWAY: -- we will get into that Thursday.
Thank you very much for your time.
Okay, I think we have a couple more of -- before we
wrap things up. The first would be Delma Bennett and the
other would be -- there may be more, too -- Stephanie
Tyree.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Stephanie Tyree and Delma
Bennett.
MR. RIDGWAY: Yes, Delma Bennett. And then did we
ever hear from --
MS. YEAMPIERRE: No.
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MR. RIDGWAY: -- the person who was late?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: No, they never 	
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay. So if you both would come up,
thank you.
Delma, I will have you start first, please.
Comments
by Delma Bennett
MR. BENNETT: Good evening. Thank you for the
opportunity to speak before you this evening. My name is
Delma Bennett and I am a member -- I am a part of the board of
the Environmental Action Now (MEAN). That is in Mossville.
My wife Christine Bennett spoke earlier. She has
lived in Mossville all of her life. We have been married for
36 years -- it will be 37 this year. We have two sons, two
daughters, two grandsons.
I would like to invite each and every one of you
guys to Mossville. You don't have to spend the night, just
want you to pass through. You could stay on the highway and
you can almost get the same result.
There are areas in Mossville that we have to pass
through the plant to get to the other cities, and at a certain
time every day, if you pass -- you could call yourself
breathing good air and all of a sudden, you pass this area and
it is just like your whole body is just shocked. And, you
know, every year you have an opportunity to bring your
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children on vacations and places. I would like you to spend a
little vacation in Mossville with us for a little while.
Now, we have had studies that protested the study
that we had, and, you know, they can't find anything most of
the time. But the thing is that in every household, almost,
in Mossville, someone is sick. We have water that we buy and
when you go to the water company and you tell them about the
water, they tell you that they don't promise you pure water,
they promise you suitable water.
Plus, the thing is that I have learned in my little
time in this movement that there is a reason why God allowed
certain things to happen. And I was looking at the scale that
you guys have in front of you, and you have it balanced, and I
was wondering why you had it balanced -- the one that is on
your name tag? And then I looked at the one that was on the
pen that you guys gave, and they have people on both sides of
it, you know, and I was wondering why they have people on both
sides instead of having money on one side and people on the
other side, because I have learned, and I truly appreciate you
guys because of the fact that you guys were selected to give
advice and most of you guys have been giving advice according
to the problems that you have heard about.
But I know once you leave from us with the advice
that you give us that you have to give advice to somebody
else, too, because somebody appointed you to be here. And I
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don't know who represents who or what position they represent,
but the battle that we are taking place with now is based on
two things. We know that there is a problem.
And I learned, just from an incident that happened,
that in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth,
and He separated the water from the land. Do you know what he
done with that water He separated from the land? He pushed it
to the North Pole and He pushed it to the South Pole, and He
froze it. Six thousand years later, we come to destroy it.
Now we have global warming, and the water is coming back on
us. But you can believe one thing, that He is not going to
destroy this earth with water.
Then another thing that I learned also, that in
Revelations, the 11th chapter and the 18th verse, He said that He
will destroy those that destroy this earth.
This is how serious it is.
See, you sit here today and I -- like I said, I
really appreciate you guys because I heard you guys give good
advice -- but the main advice that we need to go forth is when
you leave here and go to the one that appointed you to put
this summary together and let them know the seriousness of
what is happening in this world.
And I thank you very much for allowing me just to be
able to say this. Thank you. Any -- if there are any
questions, I will be glad to --
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MR. RIDGWAY: Devon, I am going to start by
answering the who appointed us, and that was the EPA. Sorry,
Delma, I am sorry. But we are appointed by the EPA. That is
who we are advising. There is no question about that. And we
will take this testimony and provide advice to EPA. And if
you are curious about who we represent, that is in the book,
too, in terms of the different organizations we come from and
the general category of organizations. If you have questions
about that, you can let me know and I will talk with you
afterwards.
MR. BENNETT: Okay.
MR. RIDGWAY: Okay, Peter, please.
MR. CAPTAIN: Thank you. And thank you. You know,
I said before that our elders have said this time and time
again, have professed this time and time again, and all this
fell on deaf ears, and nobody wanted to listen, nobody wanted
to believe. And all they believed in was what they can get
out of -- you know, what we sacrifice. Greed, that is the
bottom line. And I very, very, you know, wholeheartedly
sympathize with you, you know, and your plight, because we
have the same thing up in Alaska, also.
MR. RIDGWAY: Elizabeth?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I am sorry. I think we are a
little tired. But, Mr. Bennett, I think it is important for
you to know that oftentimes we (microphone off) Off again? I
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am sorry -- that we often testify in front of a lot of
agencies, and those agencies don't always have people who
actually understand the struggle that you are sharing with us.
But in the NEJAC, there actually are representatives
from communities that have been struggling against
environmental racism for years. And so we take everything
that you are saying and everything that everyone has said here
today very seriously because it is as if you were talking
about our very neighborhoods.
We have different issues in our communities,
depending on where we come from. You know, I come from an
urban area that is densely populated, and, you know, there are
people talking about rural environments, where they are
talking about the number of people impacted by all of these
environmental burdens. When I think about my area, I think
about the fact that in one neighborhood alone there are
125,000 people surrounded by environmental burdens.
So, they are all important and they are all very
serious, and your stories and your struggle really means a lot
to us. And so I just want you to know that, because it is not
like you are going to walk away and we are going to forget
about it tomorrow. It is a -- these are -- this is testimony
that is transformative and really shapes the way we see how
policy should move forward and it really moves us to try to
push to make sure that none of our communities, none of our
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people, are living in these terrible circumstances.
So I don't want you to walk away thinking, well, you
know, I went, or I went out there, I sacrificed, we spent
money to go to DC, we did all this, we gave up all of this
time, and these people are just going to do business as usual.
This particular body is really committed to making sure that
it is not business as usual.
MR. BENNETT: Yes, ma'am. That is why I said that I
really appreciate you guys as a group because when certain
people spoke, if you had some advice for them, I noticed that
you would give them that advice, you know, but -- and this is
what the group is all about.
But like I was talking to Mr. John, what Mr. John
said, see, when we leave here, there are two advices that have
to be given. We were given our advice here, then we have to
give advice to the money source -- I mean, there is no way you
can pass it up. It has to go to the money source. They know
that the problem is there.
It is not until enough people die to balance the
scale, the scale that I was asking what it represent, when
enough people die, then that balances the scale, then I can do
something for this community. But they can't -- it can't be a
small amount dying, it has to be a large amount.
But hat has been so -- not -- what has been good is
that everybody can realize that these icecaps that God set on
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each side is melting, you know? And then, if you can't see
that, then, you know, we are really in trouble.
MR. RIDGWAY: Jody?
MS. HENNEKE: Thank you, Mr. Bennett. I appreciate
you being here with us.
One of the things that, kind of going along with
what Elizabeth was saying, that I do -- [microphone noise] I
am not beeping, I swear I am not -- that I want you to hear
from us. There are a number of us around the table that are
currently regulators or have been, Lang, Chris, I know John.
Chuck has been, in former lifetimes as well, and it is not
just that we give advice as a body to EPA. It is meaningful
to listen to these discussions from people from across the
country and take those back into our own regulatory
environment.
I remember the first discussion that I had with a
person that worked for me when I was in Houston, which is the
fourth largest city in the country, and we were talking about
how each of us had grown up and where it was an absolute
foreign concept for her to know that I grew up without
streetlights, because I grew up in the country. She had no
concept. And it was -- it actually was of concern to her
about "why weren't you fearful, being in that kind of
environment?" And I -- you know, I was having to explain, you
know, I grew up in the country, two and a half miles off of a
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two-lane blacktop on a dead-end road that ended in a river.
I mean, you know, it is meaningful to hear different
people's stories in this environment that we can then take
back into our own.
So I would encourage you to know that, that it is
not just that we give advice, but it helps us to hear other
people's stories as well. So, thank you very much for being
here.
MR. BENNETT: Yes, ma'am.
MR. RIDGWAY: Hilton, please.
MR. KELLEY: Hello, Delma 	 Hilton Kelley,
Community In-power Development Association in Port Arthur,
Texas.
As you know, I came from a community, or I have
lived in a community very much like Mossville, Louisiana, and
we have traveled together for about 7 days, I believe, on a
bus, going out to communities like ours up and down the Gulf
Coast 2 years -- well, 2006. We traveled to Africa together,
stayed out there 14 days, and identified what communities look
like without the Environmental Protection Agency or some type
of regulatory agency, and it is not good.
One of the reasons why I elected to serve as a NEJAC
member once I was selected and the opportunity was afforded to
me is because I am at present living in that same community,
still fighting. I have witnessed at least 15 people that I
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know personally die from stomach cancer, 3 brain cancers,
right in Port Arthur, Texas, and I really want to make change.
And I am hopeful that by me being a grassroots organization
organizer, a person that is still living in the impacted
community not far from the fence line, is that I am able to
bring something to this body that will help to bring about a
lasting change. And this is my first appointment today,
actually, as a NEJAC member, this is our first official
meeting. And I know the story, and I feel Mossville's pain, I
feel Port Arthur's pain, I feel the pain for the hog farm
communities and what have you, and I just want this body to
realize that I am still living the madness myself.
We have to take this seriously because people are
dying. I can think of Reverend Scott -- brain cancer,
Reverend Cummo* -- brain cancer. A 15-year-old girl had some
weird cancer they couldn't even really identify that ate her
body away. I have got about 5, 6 newspapers at my office
right now with young people on the front page suffering from
various cancers. It is always front page news.
The issue is serious, it is real, and I think I
yelled so loud to where somebody recognized the fact that
maybe I would be a possible, really good advocate sitting on
NEJAC for the grassroots organizations. I am going to do
everything I can to uphold that and to have our voices heard
and our issues heard.
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So, we are going to push forward, and there is not a
whole lot anybody can really say, but it is time to get to
work and it is time for some policy changing and it is time
for some visitors to really see and understand what some of
these communities are going through for those of us who have
never been in one of these communities. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Omega?
MR. WILSON: I just want to quickly add this part.
We have talked a lot about policy change, and I think, you
know, Jody is with a great deal of experience in what she does
every day, talked about how it has to work, how policy has to
be there. And of course Hilton has done that, too.
I know in a lot of cases we have policy, and I am
pretty sure that -- you know, that Delma, Mr. and Mrs.
Bennett, can talk about policy that may be already in place,
but the enforcement part is the part that I am concerned
about. And of course we hear this -- we heard it from
virtually everybody that has spoken tonight -- Michele and
Devon and Dothula and the Bennetts and so many other people
who have spoken, and Dr. Wang did.
The policy issue relative to water quality, air
quality, quality of life -- you know, the quality of life is
one of those catch phrases that they use in Environmental
Impact Statements. But the enforcement part is the part that
I am concerned about, because we have a lot of overriding
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policy but it is like having the stop sign that says, or the
stoplight or the stop sign and the traffic light, but there is
nothing enforces people running through it, or nothing people
ignoring when it says 35 miles an hour and you are comfortable
doing 65 and 7 0 and they are comfortable running over people
and killing them and getting away with it, so to speak. That
is my analogy.
I mean, I just want you to quickly talk about, or
briefly talk about, your knowledge of policy being in place
but you just can't get enforcement from anywhere.
MR. BENNETT: I don't really want to wait in my
community for no policies to be changed. I want to get out of
it, really.
But the thing is this, that with the policy change,
what I have seen, that when releases happen in our community,
you know, if I have made a million dollars today and a release
happen, and then the lawyers come -- because in our community,
whenever there is a release, the lawyers come and they will
sue a community along with EPA, fining the plant, you know,
for the release. And to them to give up that money that they
have to give the community from the release, it doesn't even
bother them because tomorrow they can go back and do the same
thing that they have been doing. Take a look at this, just
take a look at this.
Now, we said the cigarette is harmful, right? Okay,
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then all of a sudden, years later, we come and say that
secondhand smoke is worse than the smoking the cigarette
itself! Okay. But we live under a plant that release dioxin
every day -- not some day, every day -- because they are given
a certain amount that they could release every day. Now, with
14 different plants in that area all releasing a certain
amount of chemicals, what happens when these chemicals meet up
in the air? What do they form then? I mean, isn't it
something to think about?
So, you know, even with the policy changes, the only
thing that is going to work, if we can come up with the ideas.
And I think we are trying in this nation to come up with
things that we could use that is not going to pollute, you
know, with like electrical -- electric cords and different
stuff like this. And if we could get to that point, then I
don't think we really have to worry about a whole lot of
stuff.
But as long as you can make money over that stuff
you get out of the ground, they are not changing anything. It
is too much money involved in it. And then, you know, they
have the nerve to say after that happened, you are just as
much at fault because of the fact that you use it. You have
to get on the airplane, you have to get in the cars, so it is
just your fault, too.
Now, I can get rid of the pig problem, you know, but
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we can't get rid of the pig problem because a lot of us that
fight against the pollution in the air and stuff, we will
smoke the cigarette just like it ain't nothing. We put it in
our body just like it ain't nothing. So how are we going to
help somebody when we won't even help ourselves?
In Leviticus, 11th chapter, God tells us not to eat the
meat of the pig. But we can't wake up in the morning unless
we get some bacon and ham and all this stuff. And
God Himself told us not to eat it!
So, you know, with the policy changes, all I want to
do is get out of that community and help the people that are
sick. And do you believe this? There are some people that,
if you say we are going to relocate, there are some people
that are not going to want to move.
So like I said, I think you guys are doing a
wonderful job because you guys are advising us and I
appreciate it. And I can go back and tell my community the
wonderful people that I met that are sincere. But some people
are still going to look at it and look at that dollar.
God said: You can't serve two masters. You are
going to have love one or hate the others. He said you can't
serve God and mammon. You know what "mammon" is? Money. God
talk about it.
Sorry, sir.
MR. RIDGWAY: That is okay. Making sure we are
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staying awake here. I appreciate that.
(Laughter)
MR. BENNETT: That is the old drill sergeant in me.
(Laughter)
MR. RIDGWAY: It is working! Okay, we have another
speaker queued up here.
Before we get into that, I just want to also advise
the Council that about six weeks ago, two months ago, PBS did
a two-hour special "Frontline" called "Poisoned Waters," and
they got into this issue in that production quite a bit on the
feed operations issue, and I do want to encourage you to maybe
check with your local affiliate and try to get a copy of that.
It would help the Council to see that as well, not that the
testimony tonight doesn't provide a lot of clarity and
background on that, but that is another resource for us.
Okay, we are going to have a reading of some names,
and, Stephanie, and then we will get to you. Thank you for
your patience.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Okay, I know that it is late.
Stephanie, just bear with us. But we have about 18 people who
submitted testimony who aren't here today.
We are not going to read their summaries because it
is just too late and I think we are all really tired, but I do
have to read their names, and their testimony will be
submitted into the record. All right, so:
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Thomas "Tubby" Allen.
Patricia Whitney from -- let us see --
Oh, Julie Nguyen -- is the other side, too, use both
pages? --
MS. ROBINSON: Yes 	
MS. YEAMPIERRE: -- Nguyen, from New Orleans East.
Patricia Whitney from Terrebone/Lafourche Parishes.
I am sorry -- I have some bilingual limitations.
Randy Caruso, Louisiana Bucket Brigade.
Joseph Sherman, Chair of Carrollton/Hollygrove CDC.
Beverly Wright, Executive Director of Deep South
Center for Environmental Justice.
Chris Costello from Marigny/Bywater.
Cathy Charbonnet from New Orleans East.
Ron Nabonne from New Orleans East.
John Referl.
Lois Dejean, Gertown Revival Initiative.
Christine Bennett -- oh, she was here, oh, she is
good.
Karen Wimpleberg from Alliance for Affordable
Energy.
Nara Crowley, VP, Save Lake Peignur.
Julie Rosensweig, Save Lake Peignur.
Sharon Gauthe, BISCO.
Darryl Wiley, Sierra Club.
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And Albertha Hastens, LEJCOC.
Then there was testimony submitted by Beyond
Pesticides by Jay Feldman, the Executive Director.
So, thank you for your patience in reading those.
So, Stephanie?
Comments
by Stephanie Tyree
MS. TYREE: Okay. Thanks, Elizabeth. My name is
Stephanie Tyree. I work with We ACT For Environmental Justice
in New York City, New York, and I want to thank NEJAC for
allowing me to speak. I am well aware that I am the last
person at the end of the long day of three I think long days,
so I will keep that in mind in my comments.
So I -- as I said, I work for We ACT, but I am
actually here today on behalf of my home. I am a native of
West Virginia and I come here today to speak on behalf of
West Virginia and on behalf of my fellow West Virginians. I
just have a couple of remarks.
I would like to plead to NEJAC today on behalf of my
home about the public health, economic and environmental
destruction created by the practice of mountaintop removal
mining. I would like to assume that everyone on NEJAC knows
what mountaintop removal mining is, but my mother taught me
not to assume anything, so I will tell you briefly.
Mountaintop removal mining is a type of mining that
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has been going on only for about 35 years, and it is a mining
process where they literally blow the tops off mountains to
get to coal that is sort of in the top levels of the
mountains.
It is a practice of mining that is incredibly
destructive environmentally and has had huge economic impacts
on regions where it is happening. It is happening in West
Virginia, Tennessee, Virginia and Kentucky. And it also is
having incredible public health impacts on these communities.
From the cradle to the grave, coal is killing
communities across the country, but Appalachia is the national
sacrifice zone of our energy addiction. Mountaintop removal
is irreversibly destroying the Appalachian mountain range and
it is causing cultural genocide of the Appalachian people, who
are forced to move out of their communities or are dying from
the public health impacts of mountaintop removal.
It has impacts in terms of air quality from the
blasting. It has impacts in terms of the poisoning of the
water that is happening from the mining practices of valley
fills and from coal sludge, which is where they clean the coal
before shipping it out.
It also has impacts on the communities located near
the mines who are being devastated by floods. These
communities are having 100-year-floods on a 10-year basis, and
I have seen communities where people have been flooded 2 or 3
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times in a year, and these are devastating floods, and they
were never flooded before when they have lived in this
community for three generations.
NEJAC must move to address the environmental
injustices that are happening in Appalachia. The EPA has
failed Appalachia for the past -- I don't know how old EPA is,
but however long it has been in existence, it has failed
Appalachia.
Maybe it is a new day for some with President Obama
and Administrator Lisa Jackson, but that new day is not
shining on Appalachia yet. The EPA is toying with the
Appalachian community by purporting to toughen its stance on
mountaintop removal mining while in reality holding hands with
the coal industry just as it has always done.
EPA has come forward saying it is going to toughen
its stance on mountaintop removal mining and then as soon as
the Governor of West Virginia or a coal industry executive
gets on their private jet and flies to DC, they issue a press
release saying they are going to pull back. This is not okay.
Appalachia can no longer remain invisible to the
Federal government and to the national environmental justice
movement. Appalachia is an environmental justice community.
NEJAC needs to reach out to the Appalachian community.
Appalachia is EJ. I will keep saying this until people get
it. I don't mind repeating myself.
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So, I would like to recommend three things, and I
can talk more about the impacts and that kind of stuff if you
guys are interested, but I like to give recommendations, so --
So, my first recommendation is that NEJAC needs to
engage in a regional listening session in West Virginia to
hear the community concerns on mountaintop removal mining and
to begin working on solutions and establishing strong, long-
term relationships with Appalachian communities.
I recommend West Virginia because that is the one
state -- it is the only state -- that is entirely in
Appalachia. Other states that are being impacted by
mountaintop removal mining have portions that are being
impacted and other portions that aren't.
My second recommendation is that NEJAC needs to push
EPA to be accountable to the environmental injustices that the
Agency is allowing through the continued permitting of
existing and of new mountaintop removal operations and through
the coal sludge and coal ash impoundments that are poisoning
communities.
Coal ash impoundments -- this is sort of like on
everyone's mind now, but coal ash impoundments are happening
throughout the country, they are not just happening in
Appalachia. So that is something that is a national issue.
And we can talk more about what this accountability would
specifically look like if you are interested.
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My third, and final, recommendation is that NEJAC
should put an Appalachian Environmental Justice representative
on the advisory Council to insure that the impacts on and
concerns of these communities are prioritized at the national
level and are incorporated into a national environmental
justice movement and the work that this body is doing with
Federal agencies.
Thank you again for giving me this opportunity to
speak.
MR. RIDGWAY: Charles?
MR. LEE: Hi, Stephanie. Thanks for the comments.
I do want to say that about a couple months ago a
number of mountaintop mining groups came in with us at EPA,
with the Office of Environmental Justice, and one of the
things they asked was to put a person from Appalachia on the
NEJAC. So that is going to happen. It is going to happen
when the new class of members comes on board at the end of the
year.
MS. TYREE: Great. That is great. Thank you.
MR. RIDGWAY: Omega?
MR. WILSON: Very glad to see you here. Very glad
to hear you talking about things that crosses our state, too,
in North Carolina, because the Appalachian mountain range is a
very important environmental historic -- pre-historic --
landmark for that state area.
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A question I have is whether or not you have had a
chance to look at the bigger picture, and I am not diminishing
what you are talking about because we know in North Carolina
the mountain range has a lot to do with weather patterns, as
far as hurricanes, storms, snowfall, other kinds of runoff
that contribute to water purification, and major storm
patterns can be changed as to where it rains and where it does
not rain in certain parts of North Carolina. I assume the
same might be true in -- you know, in Virginia or West
Virginia, what we are talking about, because we are neighbors.
Have you had a chance, or anybody had a chance, to
take a look at what that is doing not only in the immediate
area but beyond the immediate area as far as weather patterns
that are taking place as a result of removing the mountain
range you cannot replace?
MS. TYREE: Yes, thank you. Yes, I want to
recognize, first of all, that North Carolina is doing an
amazing job in terms of lifting up this issue and funneling a
lot of people into West Virginia and southwestern Virginia.
We -- I know they are getting like a lot of youth coming from
your state, so that is fantastic.
But in terms of the bigger picture, one of the hats,
the other hats, that I wear, I guess, is coordinating the
Environmental Justice Leadership Forum on Climate Change,
which is a national coalition of environmental justice
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organizations working to impact Federal climate policy and
insure that communities of color and low-income communities
are represented in the formation of that policy. So I tend to
think on that big picture stance.
I can't say what -- whether they have looked at
those types of things in terms of weather patterns, but I do
know that there has been a lot of research and discussion
about the impacts, the sort of bigger impacts, when you are
talking about burying the headwaters of streams and rivers,
which is what is happening through mountaintop removal mining.
It is a process where, when they cut off the tops of
the mountains, there is all this extra land left over after
they get the coal out, and they push that off the sides into
valleys, and they bury the streams and the headwaters that
start in those valleys and trickle down and form the creeks
and rivers that we depend on for our water and also that, you
know, go into the groundwater table.
That is not only burying those headwaters, but it is
also degrading them because when you sort of blow up that
material, all of the heavy metals come out of it, and so there
is a major impact that is happening in that way on the water
system, and I can't say what the sort of bigger impact of that
is, but I think it would be useful to have someone besides me
up here talking about that because I know that there are
people looking at that.
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I also know that there has been research and
conversation about the impact in terms of climate change that
mountaintop removal is having because you are destroying one
of the most diverse regions in the world. And Appalachia is a
region that sort of contains an incredible amount of
biodiversity and it is an area that we would look to if there
was some sort of cataclysmic climate event where there needed
to be like repopulation of the world with plants and insects
and animals and that kind of thing.
But the area is being decimated, and so you are
really losing that resource, and it is a sort of short-term
thinking that, you know, industry engages in and that, you
know, to be honest, I think our society isn't engaged in until
very recently that has allowed this destruction of this
incredibly diverse region to happen.
So that is one of the things that I know people are
pushing for.
MR. WILSON: Quickly, I just want to add, just bring
it down from the air quality or the weather patterns to the
ground.
Of course, we know making the metals, heavy metals,
come to the surface can impact the life -- not only the
quality of life but the life not only of human beings but the
animals, the small animals, the ones that live in the water,
the ones that drink from the water, deer and other kinds of
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animals, bear, whatever. Could you talk about that if you
know something about that, or has that been a part of the
agenda as yet?
MS. TYREE: Yes. I can talk about the impact of
water quality on people. I am sure that there is impact on
animals, too, but there are people who are dying right now, so
that has sort of been the focus of a lot of groups down there.
Basically what is happening -- as I said, the
process of mining degrades the water table, but also, more
urgently, the process of cleaning the coal before it gets
shipped to power plants is having significant degrading
effects on water quality in the area, and it is actually
really disheartening, I guess I would say, for me to hear
about the impacts that are happening in Mossville because that
is a similar kind of impacts that you are seeing in
Appalachian communities, and it is scary to see that these
things are happening in communities all across the country in
very similar ways.
What I mean by that is that when coal is cleaned, it
is cleaned with these chemicals. It is cleaned with over 100
chemicals.
People don't know what those chemicals are because
the industry won't release them because they are called "trade
secrets." And these chemicals clean off heavy metals from the
coal before it is shipped out and can be burned.
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When it is cleaned, it creates this wet sludge that
is then stored in above-ground impoundments or it is injected
underground into abandoned mine shafts.
When -- especially when it is injected underground,
the heavy metals sort of fall to the bottom and then they go
into the groundwater. Almost all of the communities in
southern West Virginia, which is where much of this mining is
happening, are not hooked up to municipal waterlines, they
depend on well water for their water, and they have what is
called "blackwater events" where their water literally runs
black, or it runs orange, or it smells like turpentine or
something.
They are having huge public health impacts in these
tiny communities from these blackwater events where you are
having brain cancer clusters, you are having entire
communities where no one has a gall bladder anymore because
all their gall bladders have been removed, kidney problems,
gastrointestinal problems, and you are having children's teeth
rotting and falling out from using the water. So five-year-
olds are getting dentures.
So what is happening in a lot of these communities
is really the start of community organizing to get, you know,
the scientific basis to determine that it is these metals that
are causing -- the metals in the water that are causing the
impacts on the communities, and, more importantly, getting
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emergency water to these communities because it is -- you
know, the water that they need to cook with, eat with, wash
theirselves with -- I mean, it is even an issue just of having
the water vapors in the house are having impacts on their
health.
So in terms of the water and those impacts, it is
actually a public health crisis right now, and it is something
that, you know, I think needs to have as much attention being
paid to it as the coal ash is having -- be paid to it.
The coal ash was a horrific disaster, but this is a
disaster, too, that is impacting communities that are by and
large invisible and communities that don't have the resources
to come to national meetings. And I am really happy that
mountaintop removal organizations are able to meet with
agencies in DC and that they are getting reception to that.
I know that, you know, they have been getting good
reception, but just like, you know, they were saying about
Mossville, people need to come to the Appalachian communities,
too, and see what is going on there.
MR. RIDGWAY: Elizabeth?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: Stephanie, I am glad you shared
with us what the process of cleaning coal is.
Every time we turn on the television, there is a
clean coal ad, and I think that a lot of people are under the
impression that there is such a thing. And so what you are
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saying is that there is no such thing as clean coal, right?
MS. TYREE: Yes. I will just add to that that the
clean coal is about this process of carbon sequestration
technology. But Elizabeth is right, that there is no such
thing as clean coal.
In terms of industry, clean coal -- there is
actually around the whole climate bill conversation, the coal
industry is now sort of backing off its statements that carbon
sequestration technology is feasible. So I think that even
they are recognizing in their own way that there is no clean
coal.
MR. RIDGWAY: Stephanie, thank you very much.
Before we wrap up, I am going to thank again all the
speakers for your time and effort and patience to advise us
tonight.
This is, as we heard earlier, a two-way process. We
are here to be advised as much as we are to advise EPA, and
that cannot happen without these kinds of public hearings.
And obviously it is hard to listen to these tales, but
certainly I think it is harder to live in these communities
throughout one's life and through all the issues we have heard
about. So, I have a great amount of respect for all these
reasons for the speakers that have come tonight.
I want to thank the Council members as well for your
attention, your time, and willingness to take these issues up
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as we have the opportunity in the days, months and years
ahead, because these are not simple, obviously.
Elizabeth, did you want to add anything else, or
Victoria, before we close down?
MS. YEAMPIERRE: I just want to thank everyone for
being so patient, for listening so carefully, and with all of
our senses.
I mean, I think that it is really difficult for
people to say -- I was really, really impressed by the fact
that there were other people who stayed to hear what other
people had to say even though it wasn't affecting their
community, and I think that speaks to the strength of
environmental justice that we think that this is about all of
our communities and that the struggle of one community is also
the struggle of our own community. I mean, we see those --
all of these struggles -- as being related to each other.
So, thank you so much, and I look forward to seeing
you refreshed and ready again tomorrow morning.
MR. WILSON: Can we give all the presenters a super
big hand? I think --
(Applause)
MR. RIDGWAY: John?
MR. ROSENTHALL: Do we have a way of getting back to
the presenters to let them know that their testimony was heard
or what happened to their recommendations? Do we have a
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process for that?
MS. ROBINSON: No, we do not have a process for
following up with commenters.
The comments serve a dual purpose of helping to help
the members become -- you to make better informed
recommendations, but they also serve as a mechanism, a pass-
through to the Agency for those that we pass it along to. We
used to do that years ago and it became a very cumbersome
process. That is something to explore.
MR. ROSENTHALL: Can we put that down on our
Emerging Issues tomorrow? Because if people give up their
time and effort to come here, I think at a minimum we owe them
something -- to say we did this, or we did not do that, which
are recommendations.
MS. YEAMPIERRE: John I completely agree. I mean,
it is really difficult for people to come and talk about their
problems and to walk away with nothing other than the fact
that we are going to explore this.
But also, in addition to looking at that, we should
also think about how we can identify the resources that would
be necessary to help them move their agendas locally. So in
addition to trying to figure out what we can do, we need to
make sure that we create a roster of resources that they might
be able to access.
MR. RIDGWAY: Thank you all. Sleep well, travel
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home safely, and to the Council: We will see you bright and
shiny-eyed tomorrow at 8:30. Oh, we have been given an extra
15 minutes, 8:45.
Thank you.
(Whereupon, the meeting adjourned at 10:27 p.m. to
reconvene on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 )
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